[00:07.500 --> 00:16.300] [SPEAKER_06]: The number you have dialed, 4-3-6-1-3-7-8, has been changed.
[00:16.600 --> 00:23.340] [SPEAKER_06]: The new number is O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O.
[00:23.340 --> 00:31.020] [SPEAKER_06]: Please note, the new number is O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O.
[00:42.000 --> 00:43.960] [BIG_AUD_DY]: I cut myself while shaving.
[00:44.460 --> 00:46.520] [BIG_AUD_DY]: Now I can't make a cough.
[00:47.180 --> 00:49.300] [BIG_AUD_DY]: We couldn't get much worse.
[00:49.980 --> 00:51.820] [BIG_AUD_DY]: But if they could, they would.
[00:52.100 --> 00:54.740] [BIG_AUD_DY]: Bum Diddly Bum, but the best is back from worst.
[00:55.400 --> 00:57.240] [BIG_AUD_DY]: I hope that's understood.
[00:57.560 --> 00:58.340] [BIG_AUD_DY]: Bum Diddly Bum!
[02:16.850 --> 02:19.430] [EVILCORLEY]: And a very good evening for a ride.
[02:19.510 --> 02:20.710] [EVILCORLEY]: The program is Off The Hook.
[02:20.990 --> 02:25.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Emmanuel Goldstein here with you on this Wednesday evening, joined tonight by Kyle.
[02:26.010 --> 02:27.590] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yes, I and I's here.
[02:27.590 --> 02:30.590] [EVILCORLEY]: And out in Signal-land, we have Rob T. Firefly.
[02:31.770 --> 02:32.490] [ROBVINCENT]: Good evening.
[02:32.770 --> 02:33.510] [EVILCORLEY]: We have Gila.
[02:34.010 --> 02:34.610] [GILADRAZEN]: Good evening.
[02:34.870 --> 02:35.570] [EVILCORLEY]: And we have Alex.
[02:36.090 --> 02:38.050] [ALEXURBELS]: Did you say I and I is here, Kyle?
[02:38.350 --> 02:38.930] [KYLEDROSDK]: No, no.
[02:39.090 --> 02:39.850] [KYLEDROSDK]: I just said hi.
[02:40.510 --> 02:42.470] [ALEXURBELS]: Oh, I think you said I and I is here.
[02:42.590 --> 02:43.550] [ALEXURBELS]: I was going to say, that's great.
[02:43.670 --> 02:44.070] [ALEXURBELS]: I love it.
[02:44.370 --> 02:45.230] [ALEXURBELS]: I love the Rob style.
[02:45.470 --> 02:46.350] [ALEXURBELS]: I and I is here.
[02:46.530 --> 02:46.930] [ALEXURBELS]: Present.
[02:47.370 --> 02:50.130] [KYLEDROSDK]: It was kind of a hacker's reference, too.
[02:50.890 --> 02:54.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Please say you're here, Alex, because I can't continue until you check in.
[02:54.630 --> 02:59.270] [ALEXURBELS]: Oh, well, if this can stall things, this is a great, this is great for me to know.
[03:00.050 --> 03:00.590] [ALEXURBELS]: I'm here.
[03:00.750 --> 03:00.990] [ALEXURBELS]: Present.
[03:01.190 --> 03:01.630] [ALEXURBELS]: Checking in.
[03:01.790 --> 03:02.050] [EVILCORLEY]: Thank you.
[03:02.130 --> 03:02.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Didn't hurt, did it?
[03:03.150 --> 03:03.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[03:03.390 --> 03:04.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, yes.
[03:07.390 --> 03:08.350] [EVILCORLEY]: So, I'm sorry.
[03:08.350 --> 03:09.550] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm a little out of sorts today.
[03:09.690 --> 03:12.470] [EVILCORLEY]: I got up early to get World Cup tickets and I did not get them.
[03:13.110 --> 03:15.510] [EVILCORLEY]: because apparently 50,000 other people beat me to it.
[03:18.230 --> 03:20.870] [EVILCORLEY]: This is going to be the worst summer ever.
[03:21.110 --> 03:21.410] [EVILCORLEY]: You know what?
[03:21.470 --> 03:22.230] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't want to go anymore.
[03:22.490 --> 03:25.310] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't want to, you know, I wanted to go when they announced this thing.
[03:25.590 --> 03:35.050] [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, what I've seen FIFA do is just, oh my God, the corruption, the callousness, just the greed.
[03:35.050 --> 03:43.590] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, I feel like no sooner do you get a ticket than you're going to go there and feel, like, profound guilt between your concessions, breaks, and cheering.
[03:43.830 --> 03:44.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, yeah.
[03:44.610 --> 03:46.430] [EVILCORLEY]: It should be a celebration.
[03:46.610 --> 03:47.790] [EVILCORLEY]: It should be a great event.
[03:47.910 --> 03:51.510] [EVILCORLEY]: But it's going to be, mark my words, it's going to be a farce.
[03:51.630 --> 03:57.310] [EVILCORLEY]: It's going to be days filled with outrage and just anger.
[03:57.890 --> 03:59.790] [EVILCORLEY]: So, you know, kind of an American thing.
[04:01.330 --> 04:07.670] [ROBVINCENT]: Well, on the bright side, you're not going to have to pay $150 for your New Jersey transit ticket to get into the stadium.
[04:07.790 --> 04:12.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, nobody has to pay that because it's actually $98 now because some corporate sponsors stepped in.
[04:13.310 --> 04:19.430] [EVILCORLEY]: But that's just, you know, it's another example of how FIFA can really completely screw things up if you let them.
[04:19.710 --> 04:24.330] [EVILCORLEY]: They took over all the parking at, you can't call it the Meadowlands anymore either.
[04:24.390 --> 04:31.290] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to call it the New Jersey, New York, New Jersey Stadium because they have, quote-unquote, standards about corporate sponsorship.
[04:31.510 --> 04:32.910] [EVILCORLEY]: That's where they draw the line.
[04:33.030 --> 04:37.310] [EVILCORLEY]: But they took over all of the parking spaces, which means no tailgating.
[04:37.390 --> 04:38.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Tailgating is illegal.
[04:38.730 --> 04:40.850] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't park your car there.
[04:41.450 --> 04:45.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Everybody has to get on a train, which it's...
[04:45.770 --> 04:47.410] [EVILCORLEY]: How do I explain this?
[04:47.490 --> 04:51.230] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not like a regular train that just stops and continues going.
[04:51.230 --> 04:52.250] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a hub.
[04:52.370 --> 04:53.950] [EVILCORLEY]: It goes there and then it comes back.
[04:53.950 --> 05:01.430] [EVILCORLEY]: So when they add 40,000 passengers in one sitting, it makes it extremely expensive.
[05:01.770 --> 05:05.610] [EVILCORLEY]: And FIFA refuses to pay a penny of that.
[05:05.950 --> 05:09.610] [EVILCORLEY]: So that left it in the hands of the state of New Jersey.
[05:09.770 --> 05:12.570] [EVILCORLEY]: So either the taxpayers pay or the people going to the games pay.
[05:12.710 --> 05:15.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, the latter does seem fairer to me.
[05:15.450 --> 05:19.290] [EVILCORLEY]: But there's a shopping mall down the block.
[05:19.290 --> 05:23.450] [EVILCORLEY]: They're charging $225 to park your car for a couple of hours.
[05:25.510 --> 05:29.010] [EVILCORLEY]: The finest spirit is emerging.
[05:29.170 --> 05:29.650] [EVILCORLEY]: Gila, go ahead.
[05:30.050 --> 05:38.770] [GILADRAZEN]: And, super fun, if you need New Jersey transit during a game day and you're not going to the game, you are pretty much out of luck.
[05:39.130 --> 05:40.850] [GILADRAZEN]: You can't go through Secaucus.
[05:40.930 --> 05:41.790] [GILADRAZEN]: Yeah, between Secaucus.
[05:41.790 --> 05:43.530] [GILADRAZEN]: Before and four hours after.
[05:44.250 --> 06:00.270] [GILADRAZEN]: So if, say, you're my best friend who lives in New Jersey and works in Manhattan and is having to look at the game schedules to figure out how on earth she's going to get to and from work on game days when transit is not an option because she's not buying World Cup tickets.
[06:00.450 --> 06:02.030] [EVILCORLEY]: This is going to be horror.
[06:02.270 --> 06:11.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, when the Super Bowl was at the Meadowlands, they had a disaster at the end of the game, too, when everybody tried to mob onto the train for the same reason.
[06:12.050 --> 06:15.790] [EVILCORLEY]: That train line cannot handle huge amounts of people.
[06:16.050 --> 06:24.110] [EVILCORLEY]: And the NFL at the last minute apparently grabbed a bunch of parking spaces and more people took trains than ever before and they weren't prepared for that.
[06:24.290 --> 06:25.730] [EVILCORLEY]: This time they're going to stagger it.
[06:25.830 --> 06:31.750] [EVILCORLEY]: So when the game's over, people are going to have to hang out in the stadium for a few hours while they wait for their space to open up on the train.
[06:32.190 --> 06:34.470] [EVILCORLEY]: It's just a nightmare on all levels.
[06:34.470 --> 06:37.350] [EVILCORLEY]: And people are paying huge amounts of money.
[06:37.610 --> 06:41.450] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, I saw a news piece just before airtime.
[06:41.750 --> 06:57.210] [EVILCORLEY]: There is an airline, I think it's a Canadian airline, that is basically trolling FIFA by saying that you can visit the country that you want to see for less than buying a ticket to the 90-minute game in the States or Canada or Mexico.
[06:57.490 --> 06:58.590] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's true.
[06:58.770 --> 06:59.590] [EVILCORLEY]: It's absolutely true.
[06:59.590 --> 07:08.290] [EVILCORLEY]: You could probably spend a month in the country of the game that you're watching and have a great time.
[07:08.430 --> 07:11.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And I just, I cannot imagine.
[07:11.350 --> 07:20.510] [EVILCORLEY]: I know that a lot of tickets were bought up by corporations, so technically the stadium will be full because they'll have all these seats that aren't being filled.
[07:20.650 --> 07:22.390] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, who's going to go see Norway and Senegal?
[07:22.390 --> 07:27.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Obviously, people who are, you know, Norwegian and Senegalese will take a great interest.
[07:27.830 --> 07:33.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, the average, quote-unquote, average person probably not going to pack the stadium for that.
[07:34.110 --> 07:37.490] [EVILCORLEY]: But yet, the tickets are still going for thousands of dollars.
[07:37.870 --> 07:38.970] [EVILCORLEY]: It's just not fair.
[07:39.130 --> 07:41.010] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not how it's supposed to work.
[07:41.150 --> 07:50.190] [EVILCORLEY]: But FIFA, you know, with their corruption and their fake human rights medals and things like that, it's just bad.
[07:50.190 --> 07:55.990] [EVILCORLEY]: It's bad for the state of football, the international football, which, you know, I do admire.
[07:56.130 --> 07:57.590] [EVILCORLEY]: I do like seeing that.
[07:57.910 --> 07:58.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, Rob?
[07:59.110 --> 08:15.650] [ROBVINCENT]: You know, I know nothing about soccer or how these things are done or negotiated, but shouldn't it have been part of the process when picking where they're going to have the World Cup game to confirm that the infrastructure exists to serve the game and its audience before saying,
[08:15.650 --> 08:17.590] [ROBVINCENT]: okay, we're going to have our game over there?
[08:17.730 --> 08:27.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, well, the thing is, when they make these deals, they make these deals for various, you know, one hand washing, the other type of reasons.
[08:28.230 --> 08:31.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And they don't really think beyond their administration.
[08:31.610 --> 08:35.590] [EVILCORLEY]: So when their administration leaves, somebody else is stuck with it.
[08:35.710 --> 08:39.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And the current administration in New Jersey, you can see kind of the reaction to that.
[08:39.650 --> 08:40.710] [EVILCORLEY]: They said, oh, hell no.
[08:40.830 --> 08:43.810] [EVILCORLEY]: We're not going to saddle the taxpayers with this.
[08:43.810 --> 08:50.870] [EVILCORLEY]: If anyone's going to have to pay for it and FIFA isn't going to be one of those organizations, then it has to be the people going to see the games.
[08:51.050 --> 08:54.390] [EVILCORLEY]: It's terrible, but that's really the only option.
[08:54.670 --> 09:02.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Other cities like Boston, for instance, you have a regular train that just goes, you know, the stadium is one stop.
[09:02.690 --> 09:05.250] [EVILCORLEY]: It's over 20 miles away from Boston.
[09:05.950 --> 09:08.270] [EVILCORLEY]: And that is basically normal.
[09:08.450 --> 09:09.530] [EVILCORLEY]: That is how it should work.
[09:09.530 --> 09:11.430] [EVILCORLEY]: But New Jersey is just not like that.
[09:12.350 --> 09:17.110] [EVILCORLEY]: And FIFA insisted that the final be held in New Jersey because, well, it's close to New York.
[09:17.670 --> 09:21.330] [EVILCORLEY]: And it's, you know, it's really hard to argue with something that powerful.
[09:21.590 --> 09:25.830] [EVILCORLEY]: The thing that really upsets me is there's so much money to be made from this.
[09:26.150 --> 09:27.430] [EVILCORLEY]: Billions of dollars in profit.
[09:27.650 --> 09:28.790] [EVILCORLEY]: It all goes to FIFA.
[09:28.930 --> 09:30.290] [EVILCORLEY]: They do not share any of it.
[09:31.070 --> 09:31.890] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't...
[09:31.890 --> 09:33.250] [EVILCORLEY]: It's as corrupt...
[09:33.250 --> 09:40.410] [EVILCORLEY]: If you're into corruption, this is the summer where you can study it in depth because it does not get more corrupt than this.
[09:40.630 --> 09:41.210] [EVILCORLEY]: People try.
[09:41.630 --> 09:42.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Organizations try.
[09:42.990 --> 09:46.110] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, evil people of all sorts try to be this corrupt.
[09:46.250 --> 09:47.230] [EVILCORLEY]: And they can't do it.
[09:47.370 --> 09:47.850] [EVILCORLEY]: They can't do it.
[09:47.910 --> 09:48.330] [EVILCORLEY]: Take notes.
[09:48.530 --> 09:48.970] [EVILCORLEY]: Watch FIFA.
[09:48.970 --> 09:49.430] [EVILCORLEY]: You'll see.
[09:51.670 --> 09:53.330] [EVILCORLEY]: But if anyone has a ticket out there, let me know.
[09:54.130 --> 09:54.530] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay.
[09:55.390 --> 09:56.510] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sorry, Alex, do you have something?
[09:57.670 --> 10:00.690] [ALEXURBELS]: I'm just not surprised at all about this particular situation.
[10:00.690 --> 10:04.130] [ALEXURBELS]: I had no expectations here.
[10:04.130 --> 10:12.370] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, I don't think we're talking about the law of unintended consequences at all when it comes to what's happened with respect to these tickets here.
[10:12.510 --> 10:17.030] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, they brought FIFA to New York and then somehow managed to...
[10:17.030 --> 10:24.750] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think one of the most well-off cities on the planet here managed to price New Yorkers out of it entirely, right?
[10:24.870 --> 10:38.190] [ALEXURBELS]: So we get to watch the World Cup like we've watched every other World Cup, which is from the sidelines through instant replays and the profits and the seats and the tickets all go to hedge funds and corporations.
[10:38.570 --> 10:40.790] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, nothing has really changed here.
[10:41.450 --> 10:45.330] [ALEXURBELS]: So I had no illusions about being able to go and see a game.
[10:45.330 --> 10:49.150] [ALEXURBELS]: So I don't share the sense of disappointment that you sadly do, Emmanuel.
[10:49.430 --> 10:56.270] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, you could go to Dallas where they're playing games there, but you still won't be able to get in because it's priced well out of any of our reaches.
[10:56.930 --> 10:57.550] [EVILCORLEY]: It's sad.
[10:57.670 --> 11:01.290] [EVILCORLEY]: It really is because this is something that brings people together from all over the world.
[11:01.510 --> 11:03.850] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, people in North Korea follow this.
[11:04.070 --> 11:06.290] [EVILCORLEY]: Everybody plays by the same rules.
[11:07.390 --> 11:08.730] [EVILCORLEY]: It's really uniting.
[11:08.930 --> 11:14.050] [EVILCORLEY]: And to have this kind of thing, I just think it tarnishes this part of the world quite a bit.
[11:14.610 --> 11:16.930] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, I'll tell you a short anecdote.
[11:17.150 --> 11:24.090] [ALEXURBELS]: The last time the World Cup was playing, I was in a Belgian bar on 22nd Street in Manhattan.
[11:24.450 --> 11:27.210] [ALEXURBELS]: And it was the day before Belgium was playing.
[11:27.210 --> 11:36.570] [ALEXURBELS]: And I was with a couple of friends and their kids and our kids and like the gigantic children that we are, being the parents, of course.
[11:36.930 --> 11:39.030] [ALEXURBELS]: I had the TV be gone with me.
[11:39.210 --> 11:45.310] [ALEXURBELS]: And I started shutting off the televisions in this bar ahead of the World Cup, not even during the World Cup.
[11:45.530 --> 11:48.170] [ALEXURBELS]: And these guys totally freaked out.
[11:48.510 --> 11:49.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Wouldn't you freak out?
[11:49.570 --> 11:52.050] [EVILCORLEY]: For God's sake, Alex, what did you expect them to do?
[11:52.150 --> 11:53.250] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, they're going to go ballistic.
[11:53.250 --> 11:54.490] [EVILCORLEY]: The TV breaks?
[11:55.070 --> 11:56.490] [ALEXURBELS]: It was amazing to see.
[11:56.590 --> 11:58.710] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, they started calling electricians right away.
[11:58.730 --> 12:00.670] [ALEXURBELS]: It was like, I can't have this.
[12:00.790 --> 12:02.210] [ALEXURBELS]: The World Cup is playing tomorrow.
[12:02.410 --> 12:03.490] [ALEXURBELS]: Belgium is playing.
[12:03.850 --> 12:04.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[12:04.410 --> 12:07.470] [ALEXURBELS]: And yeah, I caused a lot of chaos.
[12:07.650 --> 12:08.170] [EVILCORLEY]: What a jerk.
[12:08.250 --> 12:09.530] [ALEXURBELS]: You are a jerk sometimes.
[12:09.730 --> 12:10.410] [ALEXURBELS]: Total jerk.
[12:10.490 --> 12:10.690] [ALEXURBELS]: Wow.
[12:10.950 --> 12:11.130] [ALEXURBELS]: Total jerk.
[12:11.230 --> 12:11.810] [ALEXURBELS]: I'll admit it.
[12:12.110 --> 12:12.450] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah.
[12:12.970 --> 12:15.450] [ALEXURBELS]: I guess it was, you know, just a little bit of mischief.
[12:15.710 --> 12:17.970] [ALEXURBELS]: You know, you can do with a little bit of infrared.
[12:18.270 --> 12:21.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Serbia is not in the World Cup this year, but they were at one point.
[12:23.250 --> 12:24.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You should have tried that there.
[12:24.930 --> 12:25.810] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just saying.
[12:26.290 --> 12:27.330] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm just saying.
[12:27.850 --> 12:29.910] [EVILCORLEY]: You would not be playing with TV-B-Gones.
[12:30.650 --> 12:31.930] [EVILCORLEY]: They take this...
[12:31.930 --> 12:33.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, everyone takes it very seriously.
[12:33.350 --> 12:37.050] [EVILCORLEY]: I think even Belgians would have taught you quite a lesson there.
[12:37.610 --> 12:42.830] [EVILCORLEY]: But what you did hit upon is a great idea because that is how you do it.
[12:42.890 --> 12:50.250] [EVILCORLEY]: You go to a place where there are fans of that country or people who are from that area and you just hang out with them for a couple of hours.
[12:50.250 --> 12:55.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, assuming that they're halfway civilized and not a bunch of, you know, drunken yobs.
[12:56.110 --> 12:58.470] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's, you know, it's free.
[12:58.750 --> 13:02.690] [EVILCORLEY]: It's something that you can do for almost any country that's playing.
[13:02.970 --> 13:06.130] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, New York City has so many outlets.
[13:06.310 --> 13:09.110] [EVILCORLEY]: But here's the crazy thing, and you as a lawyer should appreciate this.
[13:09.450 --> 13:14.390] [EVILCORLEY]: You cannot say you're showing the World Cup in a bar.
[13:14.550 --> 13:16.390] [EVILCORLEY]: You cannot put that on a chalkboard.
[13:16.810 --> 13:19.430] [EVILCORLEY]: They will get you for copyright infringement.
[13:19.690 --> 13:21.370] [EVILCORLEY]: That is what FIFA is all about.
[13:21.730 --> 13:29.250] [EVILCORLEY]: You cannot say World Cup unless you pay them the rights to say World Cup.
[13:29.350 --> 13:31.970] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to say, you know, Senegal versus Norway.
[13:32.210 --> 13:34.850] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to say World Soccer Event.
[13:35.290 --> 13:36.750] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, nonsense like that.
[13:36.890 --> 13:37.910] [EVILCORLEY]: And I don't...
[13:37.910 --> 13:43.550] [EVILCORLEY]: It's supposedly protecting their brand, but protecting their brand from their own customers.
[13:43.550 --> 13:45.610] [EVILCORLEY]: It's so ridiculously greedy.
[13:46.150 --> 13:50.610] [ALEXURBELS]: I think you said copyright infringement, but I think it's probably trademark infringement with respect.
[13:50.650 --> 13:50.910] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, probably.
[13:51.170 --> 13:51.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah.
[13:51.530 --> 13:56.370] [ALEXURBELS]: So there's this new series on the BBC called 2026, something like that.
[13:56.470 --> 14:04.770] [ALEXURBELS]: And they make fun of this over and over and over again because anytime they say FIFA, they have to beep it out throughout the entire series.
[14:05.050 --> 14:05.990] [ALEXURBELS]: Oh, come on.
[14:06.030 --> 14:06.910] [EVILCORLEY]: They can't say FIFA?
[14:07.110 --> 14:08.530] [EVILCORLEY]: We're in trouble then if we can't say FIFA.
[14:08.530 --> 14:17.530] [ALEXURBELS]: They're making a joke out of the fact that they, you know, that FIFA doesn't allow you to say FIFA in the context of some kind of other commercial endeavor, right?
[14:17.750 --> 14:19.870] [ALEXURBELS]: So we can talk about it and report on it.
[14:19.950 --> 14:20.570] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, what's up, Gila?
[14:20.930 --> 14:23.670] [GILADRAZEN]: This is a sequel show to the one about the London Olympics.
[14:23.710 --> 14:24.610] [ALEXURBELS]: It is indeed.
[14:24.770 --> 14:26.430] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, 2012 about the London Olympics.
[14:26.590 --> 14:26.670] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah.
[14:26.850 --> 14:27.490] [ALEXURBELS]: Which is so good.
[14:27.670 --> 14:29.270] [EVILCORLEY]: They're not very creative with the titles, are they?
[14:30.870 --> 14:31.430] [ALEXURBELS]: That's true.
[14:31.630 --> 14:31.770] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah.
[14:32.450 --> 14:34.790] [ALEXURBELS]: But speaking of Senegal and stuff, but you're right, Emmanuel.
[14:34.930 --> 14:37.930] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, there are bars for basically every single country and people forget
[14:43.090 --> 14:48.050] [ALEXURBELS]: Senegalese places where you can go and watch these games together with real Senegalese people.
[14:48.270 --> 14:52.490] [ALEXURBELS]: Up on 126th Street are a whole bunch of really amazing Senegalese restaurants.
[14:52.710 --> 14:53.550] [EVILCORLEY]: That is how you do it.
[14:53.670 --> 14:58.550] [EVILCORLEY]: That is how you really get the global feeling of camaraderie.
[14:58.710 --> 14:59.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Totally.
[14:59.430 --> 15:00.530] [EVILCORLEY]: And competition as well.
[15:00.650 --> 15:01.070] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, Rob?
[15:02.150 --> 15:16.290] [ROBVINCENT]: Talking of people coming from all over the world to see this, there was a story earlier in the Times about how Europeans are looking at the distance to the stadium from New York City, seeing it's only 10 miles or so and thinking, well, why don't you just walk from A to B?
[15:16.450 --> 15:19.610] [ROBVINCENT]: Because, you know, Americans, they don't like to walk and we walk all the time here in Europe.
[15:19.830 --> 15:29.490] [ROBVINCENT]: So they're like, yeah, we'll just go to New York City and we'll walk to the stadium, which, of course, if you're looking at a map that seems like maybe it's a reasonable idea if you know the area at all.
[15:29.850 --> 15:30.450] [EVILCORLEY]: Of course, some are a child now.
[15:31.430 --> 15:32.150] [ROBVINCENT]: Yes, exactly.
[15:32.510 --> 15:36.730] [ROBVINCENT]: You know, you're walking through across interstates that you're not allowed to be a pedestrian on.
[15:36.890 --> 15:37.530] [ROBVINCENT]: Not even that.
[15:37.710 --> 15:45.730] [ROBVINCENT]: You're walking across Meadowlands, the actual, not the Meadowlands Stadium, but the lands that are meadows, wilderness, woods, swamps, all this stuff.
[15:45.790 --> 15:47.950] [EVILCORLEY]: Let's say you made it through the Holland Tunnel, okay?
[15:48.330 --> 15:54.070] [EVILCORLEY]: When you get to the Meadowland area, they say it's illegal for you to walk there.
[15:54.150 --> 16:07.630] [EVILCORLEY]: If you stay in a hotel across the street from the stadium, you cannot, you have to take some overpriced transport system to get there, an Uber or a shuttle bus or something, but you cannot walk.
[16:07.870 --> 16:14.730] [EVILCORLEY]: They make it so that, you know, let's say you wanted to go to that mall that's charging $225, you know, for a space.
[16:14.990 --> 16:18.310] [EVILCORLEY]: You can't go from the mall to that parking space.
[16:18.450 --> 16:22.170] [EVILCORLEY]: They segregate the people who are going to the World Cup from the people who are going to the mall.
[16:22.310 --> 16:32.550] [EVILCORLEY]: So the people who are going to the mall, they pay $6, they park a mile away, go to the mall, and stay away from the expensive parking spaces that connect to the stadium.
[16:32.550 --> 16:34.450] [EVILCORLEY]: So they've got you.
[16:34.530 --> 16:42.110] [EVILCORLEY]: The only way out is if you won this lottery that Mamdani set up, there's a free bus that'll take you from New York to New Jersey.
[16:42.390 --> 16:51.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, with 50,000 people a day registering, six days, and only 1,000 tickets, it's admirable, but it's...
[16:52.870 --> 16:57.510] [EVILCORLEY]: a bunch of people will have fun, but so many more people are being left out in the cold.
[16:57.790 --> 17:05.850] [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know what, you're not missing that much because you're going to be in a hot stadium, it's going to be crowded, you're going to be stranded there because the trains are insufficient.
[17:07.230 --> 17:12.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Do the thing of going to local neighborhood hangouts and, you know, if you care at all.
[17:12.630 --> 17:16.070] [EVILCORLEY]: And if you don't care, well, you know, there's many other things to do.
[17:16.770 --> 17:17.130] [ROBVINCENT]: Absolutely.
[17:17.250 --> 17:23.770] [ROBVINCENT]: The New York-New Jersey host committee actually had to release a statement that's basically, guys, please don't try to walk to the stadium.
[17:23.850 --> 17:25.270] [ROBVINCENT]: It is not physically possible.
[17:25.350 --> 17:26.110] [ROBVINCENT]: You can't do it.
[17:26.190 --> 17:31.290] [ROBVINCENT]: And I know we have some of the local urban exploration enthusiast community listening to this program.
[17:31.610 --> 17:36.010] [ROBVINCENT]: Maybe you can write in with some tips, but yeah, you probably shouldn't be walking to the World Cup at this point.
[17:36.130 --> 17:43.790] [EVILCORLEY]: This is a great exercise for the hacker community because they have made it such a challenge to not get ripped off.
[17:44.070 --> 17:45.690] [EVILCORLEY]: They've made it impossible virtually.
[17:45.990 --> 17:53.870] [EVILCORLEY]: So my challenge is, okay, how do you get to the stadium or, you know, to the place where they start checking for tickets?
[17:54.610 --> 17:57.010] [EVILCORLEY]: How do you get there without being ripped off?
[17:57.010 --> 17:59.110] [EVILCORLEY]: We're not even talking about getting into the stadium.
[17:59.190 --> 18:02.710] [EVILCORLEY]: We're not talking about doing anything that involves paying FIFA.
[18:02.910 --> 18:10.970] [EVILCORLEY]: We're talking about just physically getting from any place in the world to a checkpoint without having to get ripped off to get there.
[18:12.390 --> 18:15.150] [EVILCORLEY]: If someone could figure out a way to do that, I might have figured out a way.
[18:15.230 --> 18:18.150] [EVILCORLEY]: I think there's a bus that goes from Port Authority to that mall.
[18:18.630 --> 18:27.550] [EVILCORLEY]: So maybe theoretically you could go to the mall and then walk to the first person that tells you to stop which probably won't be too far.
[18:27.810 --> 18:34.370] [EVILCORLEY]: Another thing you could do is get a job in that mall and show up for work and then quit and then try to walk over there.
[18:34.550 --> 18:37.110] [EVILCORLEY]: That's all I have so far but I'm sure there are other ideas.
[18:37.290 --> 18:39.110] [EVILCORLEY]: As far as getting tickets, you know what?
[18:39.710 --> 18:40.730] [EVILCORLEY]: You're on your own.
[18:40.810 --> 18:51.590] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't think that's possible unless there's some system we don't know about but if the prices do go down, it'll be probably a week, maybe a couple of days before a match.
[18:52.090 --> 18:55.410] [EVILCORLEY]: So if it means that much to you then that's the way to do it.
[18:55.510 --> 19:04.810] [EVILCORLEY]: But do not, do not go online for these massive rip-off that are, basically they are put together in conjunction with FIFA.
[19:04.950 --> 19:10.550] [EVILCORLEY]: FIFA gets a cut of incredible rip-off prices that they charge and that even goes for the parking as well.
[19:10.670 --> 19:13.230] [EVILCORLEY]: For the $225 parking, they're in on that.
[19:13.790 --> 19:15.330] [EVILCORLEY]: It's just, it's so disgusting.
[19:15.810 --> 19:16.010] [EVILCORLEY]: Gila?
[19:16.410 --> 19:23.410] [GILADRAZEN]: So I was looking at the mall's website because they also do parking for other events at MetLife Stadium.
[19:24.190 --> 19:28.150] [GILADRAZEN]: I didn't realize they charge more to park for Jets games than Giants games.
[19:28.430 --> 19:29.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Oh wow, I didn't know that.
[19:30.070 --> 19:30.390] [GILADRAZEN]: Yeah.
[19:31.330 --> 19:36.850] [GILADRAZEN]: And apparently MetLife sets the rates for event parking at the mall.
[19:37.050 --> 19:42.250] [GILADRAZEN]: But, and maybe this is my Midwestern coming out, you always have to pay to park at the mall.
[19:42.650 --> 19:44.230] [GILADRAZEN]: Well, yes, $6.
[19:44.710 --> 19:45.190] [GILADRAZEN]: $6.
[19:46.490 --> 19:46.970] [GILADRAZEN]: Right.
[19:47.330 --> 19:56.890] [GILADRAZEN]: But I come from the land of parking garages where you don't have to pay anything to go spend money at the mall.
[19:57.050 --> 19:57.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, yeah.
[19:57.910 --> 20:01.750] [GILADRAZEN]: And, this is the other thing, they give you 15 minutes for free.
[20:02.170 --> 20:03.490] [GILADRAZEN]: Do you know how big that mall is?
[20:04.730 --> 20:09.630] [GILADRAZEN]: There is no way you can park, get in, get out in 15...
[20:09.630 --> 20:10.570] [GILADRAZEN]: Are you kidding me?
[20:10.690 --> 20:11.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, it's nuts.
[20:11.670 --> 20:12.390] [EVILCORLEY]: It's nuts.
[20:12.730 --> 20:17.630] [ROBVINCENT]: I am willing to give them this one, though, because there are so few ways that malls actually make money anymore these days.
[20:17.750 --> 20:20.010] [ROBVINCENT]: No one's shopping at the malls, so maybe this is all they have.
[20:20.090 --> 20:21.750] [ROBVINCENT]: This is their main hustle now is being a parking lot.
[20:21.850 --> 20:22.570] [GILADRAZEN]: Could you imagine, though?
[20:22.750 --> 20:24.990] [GILADRAZEN]: They have an amusement park in there.
[20:26.410 --> 20:28.070] [EVILCORLEY]: This whole thing is an amusement park.
[20:29.630 --> 20:30.530] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm not really laughing.
[20:31.170 --> 20:34.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Anyway, yeah, World Cup, boy, it's going to be something.
[20:34.870 --> 20:44.210] [EVILCORLEY]: All right, so we've been talking about age verification bills that are popping up all over the place, what we think about them, and what's being done.
[20:44.870 --> 20:51.330] [EVILCORLEY]: New development, apparently, in Colorado, they're trying something different.
[20:51.570 --> 21:11.210] [EVILCORLEY]: And they're basically saying that age verification for operating systems does not apply to an operating system provider or developer that distributes an operating system or application under license terms that permit a recipient to copy, redistribute,
[21:11.210 --> 21:23.370] [EVILCORLEY]: and modify the software without any platform-imposed technical or contractual restrictions imposed by the provider or developer uninstalling all modified versions.
[21:23.430 --> 21:24.350] [EVILCORLEY]: In other words, open-source.
[21:24.590 --> 21:33.390] [EVILCORLEY]: They're saying that open-source operating systems will be exempt from having to verify the age of the people that wish to use them.
[21:33.590 --> 21:39.390] [EVILCORLEY]: And that supposedly is going to go into effect on July 1st, 2028.
[21:39.790 --> 21:41.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Okay, so it's quite a ways away.
[21:42.150 --> 21:50.930] [EVILCORLEY]: In California, the official page of their website notes a few revisions to it since it was last mentioned.
[21:52.110 --> 21:54.670] [EVILCORLEY]: This bill is now in its third hearing.
[21:54.830 --> 22:01.590] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not quite finished yet, but basically they are listing exemptions for operating systems and application developers.
[22:01.950 --> 22:11.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Application does not include software components that are not themselves offered to consumers as a standalone executable application through a covered application store.
[22:12.090 --> 22:23.470] [EVILCORLEY]: Operating system provider does not mean a person or entity that distributes an operating system or application under license terms that permit a recipient to copy, redistribute, and modify the software.
[22:23.710 --> 22:27.650] [EVILCORLEY]: And that will go into effect January 1st, 2027 if it gets final approval.
[22:27.950 --> 22:33.670] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, this is something, but why can't a kid mess around with Windows or Mac OS?
[22:34.150 --> 22:36.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, how much of a victory is this really?
[22:37.630 --> 22:47.770] [ROBVINCENT]: I mean, a truly funny result of this would be if kids just in droves end up going over to free and open-source operating systems because that's what they're allowed to use now.
[22:48.590 --> 23:03.790] [ROBVINCENT]: And, you know, I am all for getting people using open-source software wherever possible, but there's something, there's something like, it seems like not a total victory to have them still kicking these ideas around, but only for the operating systems that cost money.
[23:04.250 --> 23:07.770] [ROBVINCENT]: this will also still restrict operating systems.
[23:08.830 --> 23:14.530] [ROBVINCENT]: Steam OS runs game consoles and it's mostly Linux, but it's got some proprietary bits in there that you're not allowed to modify.
[23:14.810 --> 23:15.870] [ROBVINCENT]: Android, the same thing.
[23:16.550 --> 23:20.890] [ROBVINCENT]: It's basically Linux, but it's got chunks of proprietary stuff that is locked away from you.
[23:22.630 --> 23:37.270] [ROBVINCENT]: So there's still a long way to go to see how this is going to affect people, I think, in practice, but at least the completely free community run Linux projects out there do seem to be safe from it.
[23:37.590 --> 23:38.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Alex?
[23:40.490 --> 23:56.230] [ALEXURBELS]: This seems to me almost like a recognition at the legislative level that the manner by which software is created determines the level of regulation of that particular software.
[23:56.230 --> 24:11.110] [ALEXURBELS]: So the more centralized the developers are, the more power they have over the user, the more likely it is that legislators are going to step in and try to regulate how a person uses a particular piece of hardware.
[24:11.830 --> 24:30.990] [ALEXURBELS]: And this makes, I think, the open-source community so incredibly unique here and also so exponentially important to us because this legislation recognizes that decentralized software, the creation that is made in a very decentralized way, defies this type of regulation.
[24:31.710 --> 24:45.930] [ALEXURBELS]: Because of the manner in which the software is created, you cannot impose these types of restrictions on an operating system that is created by people all around the world when there are no centralized repositories of code that one individual can control.
[24:46.250 --> 24:54.070] [ALEXURBELS]: This, to me, underscores, I think, the extreme importance of decentralized systems and their place in this world going forward.
[24:54.210 --> 24:56.130] [ALEXURBELS]: That's, I think, a really important takeaway from this.
[24:56.550 --> 24:57.790] [ALEXURBELS]: Another takeaway is this.
[24:57.890 --> 25:03.190] [ALEXURBELS]: So let's say, let's assume this comes into play with Windows, as you mentioned, Emmanuel.
[25:04.530 --> 25:10.390] [ALEXURBELS]: And let's say I give my child, who turned 13, a Windows machine.
[25:10.390 --> 25:11.390] [ALEXURBELS]: I would never do that.
[25:11.490 --> 25:13.270] [ALEXURBELS]: I hope we don't get listener mail about this.
[25:13.350 --> 25:15.690] [ALEXURBELS]: I always give them a Linux box, of course.
[25:16.470 --> 25:28.970] [ALEXURBELS]: But in any event, let's say I give my son a Windows machine, I install his account on it, I have my parental account on Windows, and I can oversee everything that's happening, whatever, he can still use the opportunity.
[25:29.530 --> 25:34.990] [ALEXURBELS]: What's going to stop him from installing a virtual machine with Linux on the Windows box?
[25:35.750 --> 25:36.650] [ALEXURBELS]: Probably nothing.
[25:36.910 --> 25:55.230] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think that's what kids should do to get around this, is to basically go move over to decentralized software, go move over to Linux, install virtual machines on your machines that are otherwise regulated, and then use Linux to go and access the Internet where you don't have this nonsense imposed upon you.
[25:56.310 --> 26:02.510] [EVILCORLEY]: Your kid could also just get his own Windows box without even talking to you.
[26:03.230 --> 26:04.450] [EVILCORLEY]: How do you feel about that?
[26:05.390 --> 26:07.950] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, he could do that too, absolutely.
[26:08.230 --> 26:18.230] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, I would prefer it if he got DOS 5.1 or 5.2 and kind of got into more retro computing type stuff as opposed to Windows.
[26:18.550 --> 26:19.430] [EVILCORLEY]: How does that work?
[26:19.430 --> 26:22.210] [EVILCORLEY]: How does it work going back in time to old OSs?
[26:22.210 --> 26:22.850] [ALEXURBELS]: That's a good question.
[26:22.970 --> 26:25.010] [EVILCORLEY]: That aren't open-source.
[26:25.310 --> 26:29.230] [EVILCORLEY]: Look, I'm all for using open-source and encouraging people to use open-source.
[26:29.370 --> 26:31.430] [EVILCORLEY]: I just don't think this is the right way to do it.
[26:32.090 --> 26:37.830] [EVILCORLEY]: Because you're basically making them more attractive somehow by making them forbidden.
[26:38.190 --> 26:40.310] [EVILCORLEY]: And what is it exactly that you're forbidding?
[26:40.310 --> 26:46.250] [EVILCORLEY]: you know, it's really it seems like the wrong tact to pursue.
[26:49.390 --> 26:50.950] [ROBVINCENT]: I have one question for you, Alex.
[26:51.150 --> 26:54.190] [ROBVINCENT]: Do you have an Xbox in the house for your kids to play with?
[26:56.650 --> 27:01.090] [ALEXURBELS]: I do not have an Xbox, but I do have a PlayStation, though.
[27:01.510 --> 27:02.210] [ALEXURBELS]: Does that change that?
[27:02.510 --> 27:05.630] [ROBVINCENT]: Well, the Xbox, I believe, runs on a version of Windows.
[27:06.310 --> 27:14.670] [ROBVINCENT]: The PlayStation 5, I believe, runs on something based on FreeBSD, but probably with some binary blobs in there, you're not allowed to mess with.
[27:14.810 --> 27:17.270] [ROBVINCENT]: So I wonder how this would apply to things like that.
[27:18.170 --> 27:19.690] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, that's a good question too, right?
[27:19.750 --> 27:25.510] [ALEXURBELS]: Because you do have these hybrid systems that are comprised of some open-source components and some not.
[27:25.770 --> 27:30.390] [ALEXURBELS]: So where do you draw the line with respect to who controls that particular system?
[27:30.410 --> 27:32.590] [EVILCORLEY]: This whole thing is ridiculous and silly.
[27:32.950 --> 27:34.850] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, OSs are not the issue.
[27:34.990 --> 27:37.770] [EVILCORLEY]: Nobody is getting addicted to operating systems.
[27:37.770 --> 27:46.890] [EVILCORLEY]: The problem is social media, but social media is not ipso facto a massive problem for all kids.
[27:47.090 --> 27:49.290] [EVILCORLEY]: It can be the best thing in a kid's life.
[27:49.290 --> 27:54.110] [EVILCORLEY]: It could be where they can find people that listen to them, that get them.
[27:54.350 --> 27:55.530] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, it could be a lifesaver.
[27:55.670 --> 27:56.710] [EVILCORLEY]: It has been a lifesaver.
[27:56.830 --> 28:09.510] [EVILCORLEY]: So for us to basically just consider it all evil and paint it with a broad brush and forbid kids from accessing things at certain ages, that is the wrong way to go about this.
[28:09.650 --> 28:24.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Now, that's not denying the problems that social media can cause, particularly the algorithms that we have no idea how they work and basically sucking people into all sorts of hatred and darkness.
[28:24.970 --> 28:27.090] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, that is what we should be focusing on.
[28:27.250 --> 28:28.770] [EVILCORLEY]: And really, only that.
[28:29.090 --> 28:33.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Everything else is pretty much open to exploration, development, curiosity.
[28:34.070 --> 28:36.070] [EVILCORLEY]: These are the things we should be encouraging.
[28:36.470 --> 28:45.750] [EVILCORLEY]: But, you know, there are limits to how much time you should be looking at a screen on a phone or a computer.
[28:46.350 --> 28:48.850] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, that is what we need to be addressing.
[28:48.890 --> 28:56.190] [EVILCORLEY]: Not just trying to say all social media is bad or all computer use is harmful for kids.
[28:56.490 --> 29:01.870] [EVILCORLEY]: It's so simplistic and it's obviously designed by people who know nothing about the technology.
[29:05.350 --> 29:18.510] [KYLEDROSDK]: Airing and heavy-handed as a reaction to the dereliction of having given this stuff thought and had stricter controls in the first place.
[29:18.510 --> 29:27.170] [KYLEDROSDK]: You're just passing along the costs to another generation like most other environmental things in this world.
[29:27.170 --> 29:42.550] [KYLEDROSDK]: But, I mean, it really, truly, it's just kind of passing the buck, not really being accountable for not, for having been bought off, like, paid off by this in the first place, you know, just like cashed out.
[29:44.190 --> 29:45.810] [EVILCORLEY]: It's a parallel to FIFA, I think.
[29:45.910 --> 29:46.690] [EVILCORLEY]: It really is.
[29:47.090 --> 29:51.970] [EVILCORLEY]: You make really bad decisions, you pass them on to the next administration and then you have to deal with it.
[29:52.030 --> 30:02.070] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's exactly what we're doing here by allowing legislation like this to just go through without any kind of discussion or debate or pushback.
[30:02.310 --> 30:02.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes, Alex.
[30:03.510 --> 30:06.490] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, I think Kyle is absolutely right.
[30:06.650 --> 30:10.210] [ALEXURBELS]: I think you hit it right on the head here when you said, you know, they're passing the buck.
[30:11.170 --> 30:16.150] [ALEXURBELS]: Another way of describing it perhaps is kicking the can down the road here, right?
[30:16.250 --> 30:38.170] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, you have these social media giants that got kids hooked on algorithms and yet somehow politicians are trying to regulate people who are kernels or trying to regulate software devs and trying to kick this can and push the liability, you know, further down the tech stack to those who are actually involved in developing operating systems.
[30:38.350 --> 30:54.350] [ALEXURBELS]: It makes literally no sense, but I think it might make a lot more sense if you begin to follow the trail of the money because these social media companies employ tons of lobbyists in New York and Washington and Brussels and all over the place and they have an extremely powerful lobby.
[30:54.530 --> 31:02.630] [ALEXURBELS]: Just look at how big tech social media companies have cozied up to Trump the second that he was re-elected for the second term.
[31:02.790 --> 31:13.890] [ALEXURBELS]: And that tells you a tremendous amount of how well they know where their bread is buttered and where the threats can emanate from if they're not careful.
[31:14.550 --> 31:27.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, can I ask you, as both a lawyer and a parent, what would you be comfortable with as far as how social media was being handled or thought of with regards to children?
[31:28.790 --> 31:31.850] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, I struggle with this all the time.
[31:31.850 --> 31:39.210] [ALEXURBELS]: And I'll tell you, I'm bombarded lately with ads on social media for Instagram teen accounts.
[31:39.710 --> 31:54.310] [ALEXURBELS]: And they try to trick me into watching these reels on Instagram that are about something funny and then all of a sudden they pivot into how Instagram has teen accounts and they have parental controls and you can determine what you're... and I'm thinking,
[31:54.490 --> 31:59.430] [ALEXURBELS]: oh my God, the last thing I want is my teen on Instagram, right?
[31:59.890 --> 32:16.090] [ALEXURBELS]: But I think as a parent, I understand that there are very deleterious effects on children from social media when it comes to self-esteem, when it comes to self-image, when it comes to harm and understanding how information flows within the world.
[32:16.250 --> 32:24.750] [ALEXURBELS]: You don't want them totally absorbing the news and politics and culture through the lens of an Instagram reel.
[32:24.910 --> 32:28.250] [ALEXURBELS]: That just seems like an inherently bad idea from the get-go.
[32:28.950 --> 32:37.790] [ALEXURBELS]: But on the other hand, I don't think that the answer here is to regulate social media or hardware or software inherently.
[32:37.790 --> 33:01.570] [ALEXURBELS]: I think the way in which we have to approach this is to try to educate people about the harms of social media and make sure that social media companies themselves are doing things responsibly and not, I think, implementing algorithms that actively erode things like tolerance and trust in our nation and in our society.
[33:01.970 --> 33:13.610] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think that we need to make sure that the social media companies have some kind of measure of transparency or accountability with respect to whatever they're doing when it comes to minors.
[33:13.730 --> 33:23.790] [ALEXURBELS]: I don't think we need to ban them entirely from these social media companies, but I think we need to educate the children to recognize that social media is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
[33:23.870 --> 33:25.890] [ALEXURBELS]: It has very negative effects.
[33:26.010 --> 33:35.350] [ALEXURBELS]: It can stunts your growth intellectually and probably is a bad thing to be on if you want to be somebody who gets away with anything.
[33:35.350 --> 33:44.270] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, if you think about, like, what we did as kids back in the 90s, and I know for you, Emmanuel, perhaps the 80s, right?
[33:44.610 --> 33:55.290] [ALEXURBELS]: But, you know, we were able to do things without this massive surveillance lens of our phones being constantly trained on us.
[33:55.510 --> 34:16.550] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think that kids today are waking up to the fact that surveillance capitalism is all around them, doesn't do them any good, and I think this is why companies like Meta are constantly pushing, to me, the fact that there are these things called Instagram for teen accounts because they need people to sign up for them because kids know better these days.
[34:16.570 --> 34:24.670] [ALEXURBELS]: I hope that they, frankly, know better than we did 10, 15 years ago when everybody was signing up for social media and places like Twitter.
[34:25.670 --> 34:31.750] [EVILCORLEY]: That bit, a while back, you said something about eroding trust in the nation or something?
[34:31.890 --> 34:33.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Was that something you were concerned about?
[34:33.210 --> 34:49.910] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, yeah, eroding trust amongst communities, amongst people, sorting us into, using identity politics to sort us into various different tribes, different political persuasions, all of this very divisive politics are the things that drive engagement on these platforms.
[34:50.190 --> 34:52.610] [EVILCORLEY]: Right, right, but how do you control that?
[34:52.750 --> 34:55.670] [EVILCORLEY]: How do you keep that from taking off?
[34:56.250 --> 35:00.870] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, I think you have to have some measure of algorithmic transparency with respect to these companies.
[35:01.150 --> 35:14.910] [ALEXURBELS]: If they are going to be able to cause harm to a massive number of people, and we're talking about hundreds of millions of people just in this country alone, I think that some kind of, or some measure of algorithmic transparency about what they're doing,
[35:15.030 --> 35:20.950] [ALEXURBELS]: what they're promoting, and how they are trying to actively mitigate harm is something that the public has a right to know.
[35:21.270 --> 35:22.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Except they're not going to say it that way.
[35:22.890 --> 35:23.610] [EVILCORLEY]: They're going to say they're
[35:30.510 --> 35:33.530] [EVILCORLEY]: people will say one thing, another group will say something in response to that.
[35:34.070 --> 35:35.850] [EVILCORLEY]: Do you shut down that dialogue?
[35:36.110 --> 35:39.750] [EVILCORLEY]: Do you make it so that people can't criticize other people or leaders?
[35:40.030 --> 35:42.710] [EVILCORLEY]: Or, you know, it's a very slippery slope.
[35:43.230 --> 35:51.930] [ALEXURBELS]: It's a slippery slope, and it's, I think, complicated by the fact that there are very few people that will be able to understand exactly how these algorithms work.
[35:52.050 --> 35:55.690] [ALEXURBELS]: And those people certainly are not in Congress or in state legislatures.
[35:56.230 --> 36:02.850] [ALEXURBELS]: In many respects, we'll have to rely on other experts to translate what's happening with respect to these algorithms.
[36:03.010 --> 36:17.510] [ALEXURBELS]: But maybe this is a place where, frankly, AI systems can help and try to deconstruct what's happening on these platforms from an algorithmic standpoint and then translate that into actual English for legislators to be able to regulate this more effectively.
[36:17.610 --> 36:24.430] [ALEXURBELS]: I think that would be an interesting use of trying to, of using Anthropics, Claude Code, or something like that.
[36:24.570 --> 36:31.530] [EVILCORLEY]: How important is it that basically the whole thing be run by an algorithm?
[36:32.850 --> 36:37.750] [EVILCORLEY]: What if it were just, you know, something that was open to scrutiny, open-source?
[36:39.030 --> 36:45.470] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, if it was open to scrutiny, then I think people would obviously be able to scrutinize it and criticize it.
[36:45.630 --> 36:49.670] [ALEXURBELS]: And they may not be able to change it in some respects, right?
[36:49.770 --> 36:54.690] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, now we're talking about a sense of decentralized governance of an algorithm in some ways.
[36:54.690 --> 37:14.970] [ALEXURBELS]: And those types of experiments have been going on, especially in the blockchain world for a number of years now, with DAOs or decentralized autonomous organizations whereby certain token holders will have a right to vote on how protocol is being developed or the shape or form or future of protocol development on the blockchain.
[37:15.470 --> 37:19.350] [ALEXURBELS]: To translate that into the world of Web 2, it would be an interesting experiment.
[37:20.230 --> 37:30.910] [ALEXURBELS]: I'd love to see something like that, but I don't think any of these companies are willing to, so to speak, open the kimono and show us what's actually happening behind the scenes.
[37:31.050 --> 37:31.650] [EVILCORLEY]: No, of course not.
[37:31.650 --> 37:37.990] [EVILCORLEY]: But are we willing to have these companies continue to sell things to our kids?
[37:38.250 --> 37:46.810] [EVILCORLEY]: Maybe the deal should be, if you want to continue to have their eyeballs, and I can't believe I just use that word, you can't use algorithms.
[37:46.810 --> 37:50.950] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to use something that we can examine and that we know what it is.
[37:51.170 --> 37:53.590] [EVILCORLEY]: Or just deal with us adults.
[37:54.090 --> 37:56.770] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, I think that would be great.
[37:57.330 --> 38:09.050] [ALEXURBELS]: But again, I think we go back to this issue of the power of the purse that these social media companies have in terms of shaping the way politicians vote on these issues.
[38:09.050 --> 38:13.530] [ALEXURBELS]: I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to get their money out of the political playing field at this point.
[38:13.670 --> 38:18.390] [EVILCORLEY]: Well, the way to deal with it is not to pass bad legislation, because you can't pass the good legislation.
[38:18.950 --> 38:19.870] [EVILCORLEY]: You have to keep fighting.
[38:20.130 --> 38:21.310] [ALEXURBELS]: I totally agree with this.
[38:21.410 --> 38:23.310] [ALEXURBELS]: And it goes right back to what Kyle was saying.
[38:23.430 --> 38:25.770] [ALEXURBELS]: This is just passing the buck, kicking the can down the road.
[38:26.350 --> 38:26.990] [ROBVINCENT]: Rob, go ahead.
[38:27.790 --> 38:37.850] [ROBVINCENT]: So, Alex, as a parent, I know you've fooled around a little bit with the Fediverse, federated social media, Mastodon, where they're quite by design is no algorithm.
[38:38.110 --> 38:41.330] [ROBVINCENT]: Just all you see is the people you follow, the entities you follow.
[38:41.550 --> 38:43.190] [ROBVINCENT]: You see their posts in chronological order.
[38:43.310 --> 38:44.410] [ROBVINCENT]: There's no more to it than that.
[38:44.790 --> 38:47.130] [ROBVINCENT]: Nothing's being advertised to you, put in front of you.
[38:47.510 --> 38:51.110] [ROBVINCENT]: The vast majority of these are not commercial entities that are running these servers.
[38:51.450 --> 38:55.130] [ROBVINCENT]: They're just communities coming together to put a thing up so people can chat.
[38:56.030 --> 39:01.290] [ROBVINCENT]: So, where does that fall on the spectrum of social media awfulness?
[39:02.130 --> 39:07.770] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, to my mind, I think that would be a hell of a lot better than something like Facebook or Instagram or TikTok.
[39:08.810 --> 39:09.810] [ALEXURBELS]: Absolutely, for sure.
[39:09.890 --> 39:18.310] [ALEXURBELS]: If it's just some kind of chronological listing of the things that you had already decided you wanted to see and things weren't being actively pushed towards you, that would be much better.
[39:18.450 --> 39:37.730] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, this brings to mind an article I read a couple of months ago in the Financial Times, and it was about the viewpoint of people in Taiwan, and in particular young people in Taiwan, changing their conception of people in China.
[39:37.910 --> 39:54.470] [ALEXURBELS]: Because it seems like, slowly and imperceptibly, TikTok usage in Taiwan has been, well, that's been going up tremendously, but slowly and imperceptibly, the algorithms from from, I guess it's, I don't know, I can't remember the name of the company in China,
[39:54.630 --> 40:15.390] [ALEXURBELS]: but the Chinese owner of ByteDance, it wasn't ByteDance, but in China it's called something else, it's like Dayu, I think, or something like that, but anyway, the parent company of TikTok in China has been slowly and imperceptibly sending over images and reels in TikTok about how the Taiwanese and the Chinese people are really quite the same,
[40:15.530 --> 40:31.950] [ALEXURBELS]: and they're very simple people, and they're these simple farmers, and the younger generation in Taiwan has really changed their viewpoint, and the charisma of the Chinese towards the Taiwanese has really been increasing, right?
[40:32.110 --> 40:36.510] [ALEXURBELS]: So they seem to be way more charismatic in China than they were just a few years ago.
[40:36.870 --> 40:52.650] [ALEXURBELS]: And that to me is really kind of fascinating, because you have this really abjectly hostile foreign power that wants to take over your country, and yet the younger generation is being convinced that the it's slowly but surely that they're not a threat.
[40:54.050 --> 40:56.910] [ALEXURBELS]: There's... that to me is really, really quite scary.
[40:57.830 --> 40:58.630] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, yeah.
[40:59.170 --> 41:03.810] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, you have to find out who is behind it and expose them.
[41:04.710 --> 41:05.710] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, absolutely.
[41:05.990 --> 41:09.830] [ALEXURBELS]: And the other thing to think about with respect to these social media companies, you think about this, right?
[41:10.090 --> 41:20.050] [ALEXURBELS]: I joined Facebook, God, I hate to say this, in 2007, when I was a postgraduate student at Oxford.
[41:20.070 --> 41:29.750] [ALEXURBELS]: And I joined because this is where everybody was organizing social things and parties, and you would get invited to various things through Facebook.
[41:29.750 --> 41:31.610] [ALEXURBELS]: And if you weren't on Facebook, you wouldn't get invited.
[41:31.870 --> 41:33.930] [EVILCORLEY]: And do you remember it was just for students?
[41:34.230 --> 41:36.010] [ALEXURBELS]: It was just for students back then.
[41:36.010 --> 41:38.410] [ALEXURBELS]: You had to sign up with your university account, right?
[41:38.750 --> 41:47.250] [ALEXURBELS]: But Facebook, which then became Meta, has been slowly amassing all of this user data about not just me, but my entire generation.
[41:47.930 --> 41:51.290] [ALEXURBELS]: Now, people I went to Oxford with have become U.S. senators.
[41:51.970 --> 41:55.390] [ALEXURBELS]: A good friend of mine at Oxford was Andy Kim in New Jersey.
[41:55.690 --> 41:57.330] [EVILCORLEY]: He got sprayed in the face the other day.
[41:58.110 --> 41:59.150] [EVILCORLEY]: I didn't see that.
[41:59.290 --> 41:59.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Did he really?
[41:59.930 --> 42:00.970] [EVILCORLEY]: How good a friend is he?
[42:01.090 --> 42:03.730] [EVILCORLEY]: Yeah, you know, if I got sprayed in the face, I would tell all my friends.
[42:04.030 --> 42:09.630] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, I mean, I was overseas, you know, but anyway, yeah, Andy and I used to... but I hope he's okay.
[42:09.650 --> 42:10.650] [ALEXURBELS]: You should call him.
[42:10.790 --> 42:11.650] [EVILCORLEY]: You should call him.
[42:11.770 --> 42:13.510] [EVILCORLEY]: I'm sure he would welcome hearing from you.
[42:13.670 --> 42:14.570] [ALEXURBELS]: He probably would, yeah.
[42:14.570 --> 42:16.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Protesting against ICE in New Jersey.
[42:16.470 --> 42:16.970] [EVILCORLEY]: That's what happens.
[42:17.230 --> 42:21.410] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, that warms my heart because, yeah.
[42:21.850 --> 42:23.170] [EVILCORLEY]: That he got sprayed in the face?
[42:23.350 --> 42:23.990] [EVILCORLEY]: Wow, okay.
[42:24.290 --> 42:24.930] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah, yeah.
[42:25.170 --> 42:28.270] [ALEXURBELS]: No, that he got sprayed in the face, but that he was protesting against ICE.
[42:28.390 --> 42:30.590] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, obviously, you know, we're two peas in a pod here.
[42:30.890 --> 42:32.870] [ALEXURBELS]: But anyway, think about somebody like Andy Kim, right?
[42:33.050 --> 42:35.810] [ALEXURBELS]: He also probably joined Facebook around that time.
[42:36.470 --> 42:42.630] [ALEXURBELS]: And so Facebook has 20 years of data about a powerful U.S.
[42:42.810 --> 42:43.230] [ALEXURBELS]: politician.
[42:43.230 --> 42:51.630] [ALEXURBELS]: And if they want to utilize that information, you know, for their own benefit with respect to how could I pressure this person?
[42:51.770 --> 42:54.150] [ALEXURBELS]: What are the psychological pressure points of Andy Kim?
[42:54.390 --> 42:58.790] [ALEXURBELS]: What's stopping them from using that information as part of their lobbying efforts?
[43:00.010 --> 43:03.950] [ALEXURBELS]: I mean, they have a massive amount of data on every single individual.
[43:03.950 --> 43:08.830] [ALEXURBELS]: way more information than any dossier created by an intelligence agency ever could.
[43:10.270 --> 43:14.570] [EVILCORLEY]: Most of what I have fed to Facebook is false.
[43:15.130 --> 43:17.930] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, you know, from the beginning, I've been lying to it.
[43:19.370 --> 43:20.510] [ALEXURBELS]: Well, that's you.
[43:20.790 --> 43:22.770] [ALEXURBELS]: But you're not, you know, not everybody...
[43:22.770 --> 43:23.690] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not even me.
[43:23.790 --> 43:25.010] [EVILCORLEY]: It's not even my real name.
[43:25.650 --> 43:26.690] [EVILCORLEY]: Everything is fake.
[43:26.890 --> 43:29.450] [EVILCORLEY]: We all have the ability to do that, you know?
[43:29.610 --> 43:31.450] [EVILCORLEY]: I don't know why people don't do that more often.
[43:31.450 --> 43:51.090] [KYLEDROSDK]: Yeah, that's something you should definitely remind yourself is not necessarily, like in a lot of what we're saying, we're talking about generally people that might take some of this stuff for granted or just aren't as aware of how things are structured and the sorts of business practices.
[43:51.330 --> 44:02.710] [KYLEDROSDK]: But it's fair to say a lot of why we might be on these platforms or still participate or fared somewhat well is that we took a lot of action.
[44:03.090 --> 44:12.450] [KYLEDROSDK]: We're setting our own boundaries with these companies beyond just agreeing to the terms, like how you use it.
[44:12.590 --> 44:16.650] [EVILCORLEY]: What bothers me is that so many people use it in a way where it's become home.
[44:16.850 --> 44:19.950] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, all their pictures are there, all their memories, all their interactions.
[44:20.210 --> 44:22.170] [EVILCORLEY]: Although good luck finding something from five years ago.
[44:22.270 --> 44:22.850] [EVILCORLEY]: It's impossible.
[44:29.430 --> 44:32.490] [EVILCORLEY]: When it really was not a friendly place at all.
[44:32.610 --> 44:33.690] [EVILCORLEY]: They don't care about you.
[44:33.890 --> 44:38.470] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, they care about you spending something that benefits them.
[44:38.810 --> 44:44.570] [EVILCORLEY]: And as Alex said, having something that they can use either for you or against you.
[44:45.150 --> 44:48.030] [EVILCORLEY]: True, you can delete your account, but then you lose everything.
[44:48.030 --> 44:50.550] [EVILCORLEY]: And you don't know for sure that it's gone everywhere.
[44:52.970 --> 44:57.410] [EVILCORLEY]: We're seeing now more than ever how unhealthy these platforms are.
[44:57.530 --> 45:00.390] [EVILCORLEY]: And I think that's something that we should never let go of.
[45:00.710 --> 45:08.890] [EVILCORLEY]: And we need to reshape them so that they're communities that we are driving, not driving us.
[45:09.270 --> 45:11.770] [EVILCORLEY]: I mean, is that hopelessly naive?
[45:12.910 --> 45:15.090] [ALEXURBELS]: No, I don't think it is.
[45:15.090 --> 45:20.110] [ALEXURBELS]: And I really do believe in the wisdom of the new generation.
[45:20.270 --> 45:25.850] [ALEXURBELS]: Because to my mind, my son and his friends are not necessarily interested in any of this nonsense.
[45:26.010 --> 45:26.870] [ALEXURBELS]: And they see it as crap.
[45:27.110 --> 45:41.250] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think this is why you see so many of these social media companies, especially companies like Meta, trying to pivot over into artificial intelligence, trying to pivot to virtual reality, augmented reality, the kinds of things that will keep the kids engaged.
[45:41.750 --> 45:46.450] [ALEXURBELS]: And that's why I see these constant idiotic ads for Instagram teen accounts now.
[45:46.750 --> 45:49.610] [ALEXURBELS]: Because they know better than to sign up for this crap.
[45:49.870 --> 45:55.170] [ALEXURBELS]: And I think that bodes really, really well for the future of tech in this country.
[45:56.090 --> 46:03.890] [ALEXURBELS]: But also, on the other hand, you know, one thing that I think, you know, we have to call out the good and the bad, the pros and the cons, right?
[46:03.890 --> 46:19.450] [ALEXURBELS]: Companies like Meta, however, in developing their own artificial intelligence models and things, like Libra and whatnot, Meta is actually, I think, a shining example of an American company that's actually innovating in an open-source way when it comes to artificial intelligence.
[46:19.450 --> 46:24.430] [ALEXURBELS]: They're the only one out there providing their models as open-source.
[46:24.770 --> 46:30.530] [ALEXURBELS]: They haven't done a hell of a lot lately with it, but I wish they would do more on that front.
[46:30.530 --> 46:32.850] [ALEXURBELS]: So there's something to be said for that.
[46:33.150 --> 46:44.510] [ALEXURBELS]: But on the other hand, I still think Meta is incredibly evil when it comes to the monetization of our analytics, of our user behavior, and on their social media platforms, which are pure evil.
[46:45.450 --> 46:46.850] [KYLEDROSDK]: Are you talking about Lambda?
[46:48.190 --> 46:48.670] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah.
[46:48.790 --> 46:50.350] [ALEXURBELS]: Was it Lambda or Libra?
[46:50.570 --> 46:50.770] [KYLEDROSDK]: You said Libra.
[46:50.850 --> 46:54.890] [KYLEDROSDK]: I don't know which... I think it was called something like Lambda early on.
[46:55.050 --> 46:56.730] [ALEXURBELS]: It began with L and ended with A, right?
[46:56.890 --> 46:57.270] [ALEXURBELS]: Yeah.
[46:57.510 --> 46:58.790] [KYLEDROSDK]: I haven't followed it.
[46:58.790 --> 47:01.850] [KYLEDROSDK]: But I've heard a lot about Facebook lately.
[47:02.370 --> 47:19.790] [KYLEDROSDK]: There's been some pretty interesting articles in the New York Times and elsewhere just about the overall financial footing, underlying stability of it, basically their investments in that whole metaverse thing.
[47:20.790 --> 47:22.170] [KYLEDROSDK]: And I don't know.
[47:22.390 --> 47:30.770] [KYLEDROSDK]: I think they might not actually... they're definitely trying to make up time in that kind of pivot.
[47:31.050 --> 47:42.810] [KYLEDROSDK]: But also, I mean, what happened to the lawsuits with WhatsApp and Instagram being sort of divested from them or like a part of a class or something?
[47:42.810 --> 47:56.830] [KYLEDROSDK]: I mean, they built the one thing and then they bought a whole bunch of other things and then tweaked the algorithms once they had control to entrap and capture everybody.
[47:56.830 --> 48:16.350] [KYLEDROSDK]: So, and a lot of this genesis of like them being places where people socialize come from Twitter's early history where a lot of people were brought in to get users to be attracted to it, to find out where those popular politicians and celebrities were.
[48:16.350 --> 48:22.430] [KYLEDROSDK]: So, a lot of that has just... this is like the legacy of a lot of that.
[48:22.570 --> 48:28.450] [KYLEDROSDK]: But I think what I'm hearing and what you're saying a lot of is that these are not stand-ins for socializing.
[48:29.070 --> 48:39.090] [KYLEDROSDK]: And that was the real cruel part of the whole social media experiment in Web 2.0 days, so to speak.
[48:39.230 --> 48:40.550] [KYLEDROSDK]: But there's so much here.
[48:40.730 --> 48:42.650] [KYLEDROSDK]: This is an incredible discussion.
[48:43.290 --> 48:57.530] [KYLEDROSDK]: And I think that, you know, that's why it's so cutthroat and just they're doing all these layoffs and stuff like that because they're trying to compete with yet other industries they can't really buy yet.
[48:58.170 --> 49:03.190] [EVILCORLEY]: That's, you know, the thing of buying everything in sight and just getting bigger and bigger.
[49:03.410 --> 49:14.190] [EVILCORLEY]: That, you know, whether it's media companies or social media or, you know, sports teams or whatever, that always leads to something that hurts people.
[49:14.630 --> 49:23.830] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, how far are we going to let that go before the entire world is just controlled by a couple of people?
[49:24.030 --> 49:26.490] [EVILCORLEY]: Rob, you're going to have to have the closing word because we're almost out of time.
[49:26.990 --> 49:36.390] [ROBVINCENT]: I think one thing we've been saying about social media in all its forms, even before big corporations got involved, you know, going back to like IRC and USENET and stuff is, you know, it can be fun to use.
[49:36.390 --> 49:37.890] [ROBVINCENT]: It can be nice to connect with people.
[49:38.370 --> 49:43.170] [ROBVINCENT]: It can be a good distraction for a while, but don't confuse it with real life.
[49:43.410 --> 49:44.470] [ROBVINCENT]: Use it to add to your life.
[49:44.590 --> 49:45.630] [ROBVINCENT]: Don't let it be your life.
[49:45.910 --> 49:46.310] [EVILCORLEY]: Exactly.
[49:46.510 --> 49:46.670] [EVILCORLEY]: Yes.
[49:46.930 --> 49:50.430] [EVILCORLEY]: You know, IRC was no heaven either, but it wasn't run by Microsoft.
[49:50.550 --> 49:54.670] [EVILCORLEY]: So, you know, people could shape it to be a good environment, a bad environment.
[49:54.870 --> 49:57.930] [EVILCORLEY]: That's not going to go away no matter what kind of platform you're using.
[49:58.210 --> 50:04.450] [EVILCORLEY]: But we had the ability to design it ourselves and to make it whatever it is we wanted to make it.
[50:04.650 --> 50:07.350] [EVILCORLEY]: And that's what we have to be steering back towards.
[50:07.890 --> 50:13.890] [EVILCORLEY]: Hey, we didn't mention this before, but there is no overtime tonight because we've got deadlines and we've got all kinds of other things going on.
[50:14.850 --> 50:23.270] [EVILCORLEY]: So unfortunately, there won't be one next week either because we're doing a call-in show here on WBAI that will take the whole hour from 7 to 8.
[50:23.630 --> 50:25.790] [EVILCORLEY]: So set your calendars for that.
[50:26.230 --> 50:27.870] [EVILCORLEY]: Call us up and let us know what's on your mind.
[50:27.870 --> 50:38.010] [EVILCORLEY]: And to buy the time before then, you can write to us, email, yes, oth@2600.com, oth@2600.com.
[50:38.470 --> 50:40.970] [EVILCORLEY]: And yeah, it's been a fun discussion.
[50:41.330 --> 50:48.170] [EVILCORLEY]: And, you know, think these things through yourself and send us articles if you find anything or opinions.
[50:48.490 --> 50:51.910] [EVILCORLEY]: We would love to hear your thoughts on this.
[50:52.310 --> 50:54.970] [EVILCORLEY]: We're going to hear a lot more thoughts on it in the future for sure.
[50:55.330 --> 50:57.430] [EVILCORLEY]: This is a manual for Off The Hook.
[50:57.430 --> 50:59.510] [EVILCORLEY]: We will see you next week.
[50:59.710 --> 51:00.210] [EVILCORLEY]: Good night.