From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 08:49:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA19356; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:48:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:48:33 -0800 Message-ID: <018b01c0741a$aeefd9a0$378f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: "jlsparber" Subject: Re: Molecular Sieve Pre-Filter for PSA Medical Oxygen Concentrators Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:45:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C073D7.9AA45E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"d2KZu.0.Ik4.WJBKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C073D7.9AA45E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Molecular Sieves can be tailored to selectively remove molecules larger than N2 and O2 from the ~ 40 liter/minute input of the O2 concentrators to get around the concentrator oxidation problems. http://www.zeochem.com/ Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C073D7.9AA45E00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Zeochem - A major producer of molecular sieve adsorbents..url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Zeochem - A major producer of molecular sieve adsorbents..url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.zeochem.com/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.zeochem.com/ Modified=2091D1DC1974C001AC ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C073D7.9AA45E00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 10:29:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21058; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:28:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:28:29 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:25:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: NAMECALLING Resent-Message-ID: <"Y42T53.0.y85.CnCKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I sent off my previous message with a confusing subject line. Here's the >same message again: > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:52 -0800 (PST) >From: William Beaty >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Cc: mjones jump.net >Subject: VORTEX-L, PLEASE READ >Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 22:23:55 -0800 >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com > > >NAMECALLING AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS > >I've been putting off bringing the issue of namecalling to the fore. >Considering the contents of the following message, now seems like a good >time. > > >http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m16145.html >On Wed, 27 Dec 2000, Mitchell Jones wrote: >> As for whether this should be a reasoned discussion: you are correct. I >> would love to discuss the topic of reasoned discourse in an atmosphere >> devoid of personal pejoratives. However, Bill started this off not by >> criticising my view of reasoned discourse, but by criticizing my character. > >No sir, I did not. > >I criticized your BEHAVIOR ***{A distinction without a difference. The fact of the matter is that the only source of information about another person's character is his behavior. It is only in science fiction that we have recourse to "thought probes" planted in another person's brain, by means of which we may directly monitor events in his stream of consciousness. What this means is that traits such as arrogance, closemindedness, intolerance, etc. are character flaws which we infer based on analysis of behavior, and it is an exercise in pointless hair splitting to say that what we are criticizing arrogant behavior rather than arrogance, or that we are criticizing closeminded behavior rather than closemindedness, or that we are criticizing intolerant behavior rather than intolerance. Such distinctions are mere weasel words, and do nothing to change the fact that comments such as you hurled at me constitute *personal criticisms*, and as such are off topic, divisive, and inflammatory in a forum ostensibly devoted to the *impersonal* discussion of substantive issues. Nobody came here to participate in group therapy, and you do everyone here a disservice by pretending otherwise. --MJ}*** , and you responded with >insults. ***{It is a judgment call as to whether your original comments or my responses are properly categorized as insults, but it is *not* a judgment call regarding whether you were the one who introduced personal criticisms into the discussion. Result: you have no grounds for complaining when you are criticised in return. You may *want* me to participate in this exchange with my hands tied behind my back, but it isn't going to happen. --MJ}*** >This is currently not an enormous problem on Vortex-L, since it's >different than all of my other lists in lacking a no-insults rule. >[perhaps this should change] ***{And perhaps you should drop your practice of posting personal criticisms on the list. Perhaps you should contact supposed offenders privately, state your objections to their "behavior", and see what they have to say in response. Then, at the end of such a discussion, if you remain convinced of the righteousness of your cause, you can then post any rules changes, warnings, or whatever, without the disruptive effects that are guaranteed to follow when you post personal criticisms on the list. Or, alternatively, if you want to discuss the proper ground rules for reasoned discourse on the list, why not bring up the issues you have in mind in an impersonal manner that does not involve an attempt to "make an example" out of any specific individual. You could, for example, have raised the question of the appropriateness of using words such as "nonsense," "bogus," "absurd," etc., without pointing the difcussion at any particular person's comments. Or, if you wanted to discuss "intolerance," "closemindedness," "arrogance," etc., you could have brought that up in the abstract as well. If, for example, you had stated the abstract idea that we should all play devil's advocate by arguing against what we believe, and that failing to do so smacks of intolerance or interferes with the search for truth, I would have immediately disputed the point with you *in the abstract*--which means: I would *not* have introduced speculations about your character into the discussion. The only reason I made such comments is that (a) you opened the door to such them by engaging in similar speculations about me, and (b) they seemed to be reasonable inferences, based on your behavior. --MJ}*** >However Mitch, I think it is causing continuing problems for you as >follows. If you insist upon interpreting my criticisms of your behavior >as being insulting, then corrective feedback from outside becomes >impossible, since you will fight it or ignore it. ***{You are missing the point. Whether you label your personal criticisms as "insults" or not, the fact of the matter is that when you introduce personal criticisms into the discussion, you give up all grounds for complaining if personal criticisms come back at you. What you apparently want is for me to simply assume that it is only *my* behavior that might be in need of "correcting," while *your* behavior is exempt from criticism. Well, that isn't the way it works. The reality is that I, and perhaps some others in this group, do not in any sense feel morally inferior to you. This is not a parent-child relationship, with you being the parent. The fact is, like it or not, that this group is an instance of voluntary exchange among equals--which means: when you toss out "corrective feedback," you have no grounds to complain when "corrective feedback" comes back at you. --MJ}*** I'm sure you know what >can happen to people who ignore and dismiss all external feedback, and >instead "write their own report cards." Throughout our exchange you have >repeatedly done just this, and it is having the usual effect. ***{Utterly false. The fact of the matter is that I have posted point-by-point responses to your various comments, as I am doing now. It is *you* who have "ignored and dismissed" what I have said, by snipping every word that I wrote in response to you, until, finally, you quoted the brief snippet that appears at the beginning of this message. --MJ}*** And it's >not just feedback from me which you ignore. ***{I repeat: I have posted lengthy point-by-point responses to most of your messages, which you have utterly ignored. The only reason I have skipped anything has been lack of time or judgments that some material could be skipped because it was repetitious or of no importance. I have certainly devoted far, far more time to composing responses to this thread than you, as is amply demonstrated by a simple word count of our various messages. --MJ}*** If you want me to point out >specific instances, I shall ***{Rubbish. You will do nothing of the kind, because if you do so, it will be child's play for me to demolish you claims, and you know it. That's why you have followed the practice, from the beginning of this discussion, of snipping out virtually every specific response I have made, and have directed your criticisms, not at specific statements made by me, but at caricatures of my statements that existed only in your own mind. The fact of the matter is that, despite your hollow pretensions to the contrary, you goal in this discussion is not to find the truth, but to win--or to appear to win--in the minds of whatever subset of readers here that may be biased enough to not see through your transparent evasions. --MJ}*** , but I believe they will be very obvious if >you go back and read the messages. >Please go read the actual messages. I've linked them here: > > 12/5 to 12/26 > http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html ***{I have already read all of those messages, sir, and what they render obvious is the truth of what I just said, above. The fact is that, with the sole exception of the brief snippet that you quoted at the beginning of this message, you have systematically avoided directing your criticisms at specific targets--just as you are avoiding doing so right now. The question is why, and the answer is obvious: you know you don't have a leg to stand on, but are not honest enough to admit that you are wrong. The implication: you are just another pathological evader, very much like the "pathological skeptics" whom you decry--which means: a person who, when he discovers that he has taken a position he cannot defend, has recourse to tactics intended to cover up that state of affairs, either by introducing pejoratives into the discussion, or by bobbing and weaving and switching the subject, or by simply ignoring the statements of his opponent and responding to fantasies of his own concoction instead. And what a laugh that is: you talk on about how you are criticizing my behavior, not my character, despite the palpably obvious fact that the only behavior of mine you have to criticize is *my words*--i.e., the words that you deliberately and repeatedly snip out of your messages and ignore. --MJ}*** >> (He said I was arrogant, intolerant, closeminded, unscientific, unshakeable >> in my beliefs, and on and on.) > >No. At one point I described your BEHAVIOR, then labled it 'closeminded." >See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15665.html, "To me this >behavior is clearly closemindedness." I also described your attitude >during the Mpemba messages as being one of "unshakable belief." Both were >intended to be corrective feedback delivered by the forum moderator about >what sort of behavior is supposed to be 'illegal' here. ***{Yes, and virtually everything you said in that post was wrong, for extensive reasons that I stated in a lengthy, point-by-point reply, which you then proceeded to snip out and ignore. Result: I concluded that you are in the grip of the same delusions of grandeur as the typical "moderator." You think you are God almighty, King of Vortex, dictator, or something similar--i.e., that you are better than the rest of us peons, and that there will be no consequences if you behave like a closeminded, intolerant, arrogant tyrant who refuses to justify his edicts. --MJ}*** Somehow you >misunderstood them, taking them as personal insults, then hurled genuine >insults in return. ***{As I said earlier, it is of no concern to me whether you label your original pejoratives as "insults" or as "corrective feedback." Whatever you call those comments, you cannot complain when you find similar comments coming back at you. You can insinuate that I am a "pathological skeptic," and I can insinuate that you are a "pathological evader." If you don't like being on a level playing field, that's just too bad. --MJ}*** In my experience most flamewars are triggered by >exactly this "tit-for-tat" stuff you use. "Tit-for-tat" is a way to avoid >responsibility for nasty behavior. "Well you started it" is no excuse. ***{If someone calls me a sonofabitch, I would be perfectly justified in calling him a sonofabitch in return. However, justified or not, I won't do that, because such exchanges are juvenile and a waste of time. Moreover, I have said as much in this very discussion. For example, I said: "If an individual hurls himself bodily into a cesspool, however, I will *not* follow him. Instead, I will simply killfile the S.O.B. and be done with him." Do you remember that? If so, then why are you insinuating the contrary? The fact of the matter is that you want the playing field to be slanted in your favor. You want to be free to accuse me of "closemindedness," "pathological skepticism," etc., and we are supposed to then have a discussion in which *my* character is discussed and yours is not. Well, it won't work. The fact of the matter is that when you suggest that I am a "pathological skeptic," you give up all rational grounds for complaining when I suggest that you are a "pathological evader," and while I am not willing to respond in kind to mindless juvenile accusations and insults, I *am* willing to analyze your character, motivations, etc., thoroughly and in public, if you open the door to such discussions by analyzing mine. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Please point out where I described your CHARACTER as "intolerant" or >"unscientific." I take namecalling very seriously, and if I have done it >without realizing it, I want to know. I take false accusations seriously >too. ***{As I noted above, your attempt to raise up a dichotomy between criticism of behavior and criticism of character is fallacious. As a practical matter, it makes no difference whether you accuse someone of "closeminded behavior" or of "closemindedness," since the import is the same in either case. All such accusations are inferred from behavior, of necessity, due to the fact that no person has any way to plug directly into the stream of consciousness of another and observe the events there. Moreover, this is *obvious*--too obvious, in fact, to have escaped your attention if you had been applying even the slightest modicum of self-criticism as you wrote down the above statements. The implication: you are functioning in the very mode that you like to criticize--that of a closeminded, arrogant individual who is unshakeable in his beliefs because he does not even momentarily consider the possibility that he may be wrong. --MJ}*** >You've been accusing me of calling you 'arrogant' and 'intolerant' ever >since this message: http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15646.html... >"Their preference, of course, is to accuse their opponents of being >ignorant or stupid, while yours is to accuse me of being close minded, >intolerant, arrogant, etc. " > >Please list the message(s) where I used namecalling like this. ***{You are the one who is fixated on the word "namecalling," and it is you, not I, who introduced it into the discussion. I did not accuse you of namecalling but of uttering various, specific criticisms of my character. For example: (1) In your message of Dec. 8 at 23:31, you said: "You presented a list of reasons why the anomaly cannot exist. You exclusively argue against it, and present nothing in favor of it. Apparently you cannot see through the eyes of the opponent, and ascribe negative motivations. To me this behavior is clearly closemindedness. Your attitude towards others with differing opinion is not respectful. You accused Jed of believing in "polywater." To me that is clearly ridicule You seem to see the anomaly, if real, as being a threat to science." "Individually I wouldn't notice these actions, but together they add up to Pathological Skepticism directed at an anomaly, and this is something I try to take action against if I notice it appearing on Vortex-L." (2) What did "pathological skepticism" mean? You answered that in your previous message (Dec. 7 at 17:42), as follows: "Years ago on SPF, many skeptics dismissed CF evidence on the grounds that it clearly violated well-tested theory. You cannot have fusion without high energy, and anyone who believed differently was stupid or insane. It was hard to hold conversations with others who took CF seriously because of the constant noise from those who bad-mouth the very idea of CF. A reasoned and thoughtful online community could never form there because of fear of emotional attacks from the arrogant ones who knew WITHOUT TESTING that CF was pure ignorance. The solution: start a group which excludes any "skepticism" which takes the form of evidence-bashing, or the elevation of known theory to the status of unquestionable 'fact.'" In the above two quotes (there are other quotes to the same effect) you accuse me of closemindedness, being disrespectful toward persons of differing opinion, and exhibiting "pathological skepticism"--which, as you had explained in the immediately preceding post, involved the launching of "emotional attacks," being "arrogant," treating theories as "unquestionable," etc. Bottom line: you are guilty as charged, in spades, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Result: you do not have any shred of a basis for complaining when I engage in pejorative speculations about your character and motivations, because you began this discussion by engaging in pejorative speculations about mine. "Corrective feedback" is *not* a one-way street, however much you may wish it were otherwise. --Mitchell Jones}*** Note well >that criticism of behavior is not namecalling, and if you make it a habit >to see criticism as personal insults, then the cycle of feedback is >shattered. ***{I repeat: you are the one introducing terms such as "namecalling" and "insults" into this discussion. I am not interested in arguing with you about whether such labels do or do not apply to the sorts of personal criticisms that you stated, above, or to my responses to them. I frankly don't give a hoot in hell whether you call those remarks "namecalling," "insults," "corrective feedback," or whatever. It is crystal clear, irrespective of the applicability of such labels, that you introduced pejorative speculations about my character into this discussion, and it is equally clear that you have no grounds whatsoever for complaining when I speculate pejoratively about *your* character. If you want to send "corrective feedback" in my direction, then you can expect that "corrective feedback" is going to come flying back at you, whether you like it or not. --MJ}*** >> Result: any light that has emerged from our >> discussion has done so in spite of a not inconsiderable amount of heat. > >Please read the past messages. The vast majority of the "heat" comes from >only one side ***{I guess it depends on what you call "heat." You apparently choose to regard my suggestion that you are a "pathological evader" as "heat," but you do not choose to regard your prior suggestion that I am a "pathological skeptic" as "heat." But, hey, that's the way pathological evasion works, now isn't it? :-) --MJ}*** , and quite a bit of it takes the form of accusing me of >using namecalling when I did no such thing. ***{You are the only one who has used the term "namecalling" in this discussion. My point has been, and remains, simply this: if you want to hurl personal criticisms in my direction, then brace yourself to receive personal criticisms in return. And if you don't have the stomach for that, then limit your comments to *impersonal* and substantive discussions of ideas, with an emphasis on anomalous science, like most of the other peons in this group generally do. --MJ}*** >Can you honestly inspect your own behavior in these past messages? ***{Yup. Can you? Of course not! Selective thinkers never can. Instead, they only see those aspects of a situation that support what they want to believe, while remaining blind to those which do not. --MJ}*** > http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html > >I also ask all vortex-L subscribers to read them if you have the time (and >the stomache.) This is a serious issue for the whole group. > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 18:29:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02676; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:25:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:25:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 20:27:32 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: NAMECALLING In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: Resent-Message-ID: <"RJXpt.0.hf.tmJKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 12:25 PM 1/1/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: Mitchell, your latest attitude towards our benevolent leader, Bill Beaty, has finally popped loose the tape I put over my mouth at the beginning of this dreadful affair. Rather than take up a lot of bandwidth with further discussion (which Jones would pathologically evade and distort), I move that Jones' subscription to Vortex-L be revoked! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 18:54:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA10087; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:47:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:47:58 -0800 Message-ID: <000501c0746e$6bce9860$598f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: NAMECALLING Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 19:45:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0_GXf2.0.XT2.U5KKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Little To: ; Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 6:27 PM Subject: Re: NAMECALLING > At 12:25 PM 1/1/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > Mitchell, your latest attitude towards our benevolent leader, Bill Beaty, > has finally popped loose the tape I put over my mouth at the beginning of > this dreadful affair. > > Rather than take up a lot of bandwidth with further discussion (which Jones > would pathologically evade and distort), I move that Jones' subscription to > Vortex-L be revoked! I SECOND THE MOTION! Regards, Frederick > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 19:30:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22852; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 19:27:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 19:27:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 20:36:56 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re[2]: NAMECALLING In-reply-to: <000501c0746e$6bce9860$598f85ce fjsparber> To: Frederick Sparber Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <14226669431.20010101203656 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> <000501c0746e$6bce9860$598f85ce fjsparber> Resent-Message-ID: <"q-UVm.0.va5.CgKKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FS> I SECOND THE MOTION! FS> Regards, Frederick Hear hear!! I THIRD IT. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 22:37:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA03172; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:35:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:35:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CALL FOR HELP In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4IkXa1.0.Un.qQNKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One last thing to try. Both Mitch Jones and I claim to be able to hear external criticism without simply rejecting it out of hand. We're also aware of the boundless growth in evil that occurs when a person becomes deaf to all external feedback, and of the "moral crisis" faced whenever a person finally chooses this totally self-blind "evil" as a permanent lifestyle. I think such a crisis is at hand. But is it me or Mitch who is self-blind, lying, and "projecting"? There's an easy way to find out. Please, vortex-L, briefly describe to us the recent behavior of Bill Beaty and of Mitch Jones. Maybe a concerted effort from disinterested outsiders will tear away the lies. Be compassionate and respectful, but use blunt honesty. Criticize our behavior, not our character. If you must, send messages privately. Recent Bill/Mitch messages: http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html Well, happy new year. I guess! :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 1 23:07:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08662; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:06:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:06:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102005847.00a39eb0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-Sender: stk mailhost.sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 00:59:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re[2]: NAMECALLING In-Reply-To: <14226669431.20010101203656 imap2.asu.edu> References: <000501c0746e$6bce9860$598f85ce fjsparber> <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> <000501c0746e$6bce9860$598f85ce fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6367.0.F72.ztNKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:36 PM 1/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >FS> I SECOND THE MOTION! > >FS> Regards, Frederick > >Hear hear!! I THIRD IT. I move we let Bill decide what to do for himself. This is not a democracy, he is our leader. (and a good one, in my opinion) --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 00:51:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25107; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:49:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:49:51 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:57:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NAMECALLING Resent-Message-ID: <"bPOpf2.0.D86.lOPKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:25 PM 1/1/1, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] >Nobody came here to >participate in group therapy, and you do everyone here a disservice by >pretending otherwise. --MJ}*** [snip] Speaking for myself, I came here to avoid the nasty, useless, and frequently content free debating on sci.physics.fusion, in order to enjoy a healthy freedom of spirit and imagination, and have found vortex to be very theraputic in that regard. Vortex has been for the most part both safe and effective for what afflicted me, and to some small extent I hope has remedied my carrying the negativity disease I came here to avoid. Vortex would be even more effective in my opinion if protracted, personal, or heated debate and scathing criticsm were moved to vortexb, especially if and when multiple members request it. I feel the spirit here should be one of open minded cooperation in creating and examining experiments related to supposed or reported anomalies. This should not be a coliseum for contestants. There have been various occasions where reasoned debate or prolonged discussion of a purely scientifc nature has been of use, but this typically is not the kind of thing that is a problem. There are plenty of venues for negativity and debate, but few places for an open minded creative examination of scientific oddities and outcast ideas. It seems to me that the main value here should not be freedom of speech nor the equality of the contributors positions, but rather the mutual cooperation in examining outlandish ideas and experiental results without a lot of negativity, and without unlimited ego based competitions. Mitchell, though I have enjoyed and learned from many of your posts and observations, I think it is good therapy to consider the possible fallicies in the notions that quantity of words makes for quality of ideas, or is more convincing the simple brief clarity, that responding in kind is effective in swaying opinion, that freedom of speech is the right to say anything anywhere or any time, that logic provides more truth than a mere check of the consistency of premises, that the last person to argue a position "wins", that anybody really cares to read 25 paragraphs of debate that has gone personal, that anyone is under any obligation to respond to arguments considered en mass to have been wholly unfounded or self defeating, or that "winning" a debate, "demolishing" an argument, strictly in your own opinion and frame of reference, is actually winning anything at all. I think we all on vortex win or lose pretty much to the same degree, the degree to which we accelerate the search for new energy sources, and accelerate progress in improving the human condition. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to Bill Beaty for creating his science lists, and that being here is a privilege, not a right. Though we enjoy freedom of speech in the USA, how we can exercise that freedom is dependent upon the forum. It is not, for example, OK to speak on a topic in an out of order manner at a corporate meeting. The lawful and reasonable direction of the presiding officer must be observed. This is a lightly moderated list. The moderator presides. The authority of a moderator in a list is neither a threat to freedom nor immoral any more than the right of a chairman to preside at a board meeting. Freedom of speech is not the right to say anything anywhere or any time. I would like to see you stick around Mithcell, but I would also like to see a change in the rules and clarification of the directions for vortex. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 02:50:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA08677; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:49:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 02:49:13 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: CALL FOR HELP Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:49:12 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"eQAMZ.0.Q72.e8RKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi folks: I'm Back after an exhausting project, but I have been following this subject with high interest. Personally, I subscribe to hear out new and unusual ideas - if I want to see people frothing at the mouth about personal judgements I can simply start a political argument with someone (anyone ! - there's no one on this planet who agrees with me...). I enjoy reading the bizarre ideas (such as Mpemba et al) because they stimulate my imagination. No matter how far-fetched or "obviously wrong" they might be, these discussions often lead toward both better comprehension and new grist for our experiments. I would like to believe that each of us is capable of passing judgement in private without feeling a personal need to rally others to support our own belief systems. That said, I do support the Vortex list aim as Bill has developed it. Belief or disbelief is simply a side-effect of research. Those who feel a need to 'belong' to a group that mandates a particular belief system should find a more appropriate forum as I seriously doubt there could ever be a unanimous agreement amongst the members of Vortex about any particular aspect of the physical sciences, much less biology or psychology. Quoting a former Mensa director: "You ever try herding cats ?" -------------------------------------------------------------- As to 'de-listing' Mr. Jones, I would like to resurrect a post of his from 2000.07.21 Gigantic Saguaros on Mars! At that time I was deep into reservoir description with a very experienced data interpretion consultant for a certain major petroleum exploration firm in a country we won't talk about. The person in question has vast experience in geophysical exploration and is very successful in finding petroleum based on structural geological analysis. I planted the photo in question in front of him and asked him to help me out in describing the surface geology and to give me some ideas about the underlying structure. In the midst of our work on geophysical data processing, I let him extrapolate this photo to be in line with our work - based on this planet Earth - but I didn't say it. I wanted to see his reaction, to see if he would immediately pick up that this photo was not Earth. His first comment was " what kind of trees are these - do we know what kind of root structure they might have ?" After I picked my self up off the floor laughing I explained where the photo was taken and all the Vortex thoughts that were zinging around about it. Dubious as to whether they were trees or not, he did point out that the formations and distributions seemed to imitate sedimentary outcrops such as we have here on Earth. He went so far as to speculate that the contents of the rocks would probably be rich in iron - a feature of primitive life-based sedimentary processes which produces 'hard' deposits which erode slower than neighboring formations. He decided that the photo 'proves to him' that there was a period of sedimentary deposition which 'most probably' was accompanied by primitive life-forms. All this prior to Nasa's announcement, and all because Mitch was unblindered to the point where he would post such 'nonsense'. .......... Insults are indefensible, but I would point out that I personally ignore such things, as we all can, at some point or another, get put off balance enough to descend into verbal barrages such as you both find yourselves in at this time. If we were talking about a preacher out to 'save Vortexians' from the sins of _ _ _ _ _ physics, I wouldn't even respond. Good riddance to several of the previous preachers who had us swimming in email oceans about how they were right and everyone else was wrong and conspiring against them... My only advice is simply duck out for cooling off and reflection as I would guess that none of us would actually want to see either of you wasting precious time and bandwidth on this sort of thing. You've both been sucked into a psychological trap. There is no trophy to win, and there is nothing to lose except respect. When I (and perhaps, others) see judgemental adjectives and/or adverbs imbedded in an email, little red flags start popping up, and I taste the salted words hesitantly with great reservation. I know I make mistakes often enough on my own and I tend to be very cautious when I see someone trying to judge science on my behalf. I usually compose a vitriolic reply which demonstrates utterly and irrefutably the flawed ancestry and incestuous upbringing of the flamee, as well as describing in multi-hued completeness the utter waste of conciousness the person in question is. Then I delete this, as I realize: why waste my time on someone who is wasting theirs ? Or, what if they are correct ? ========== As to the 'mystery man' portion of your comments, I am afraid I have to side with Mitch on this: I am, quite literally, a 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Everything I say and do gets magnified quite a bit. I must be very clandestine with my experiments. One word about radio-activity or chemical hazards or free-energy would have riots descending on my house and family. I have already had (on several occasions) to be ferried out of harms way on account of my skin color and nationality. Never mind my benign intentions - mobs are nearly always racist in the extreme. If I could make a living there, I would in a heartbeat move back home and count myself as one of Scott's neighbors, hanging around Austin and being a general pain in the butt to the good people of Vortex and insurance agents everywhere. Thus, I don't often sign my messages or advertise my presence here. It's simply too dangerous for my wife and family to do that. cheers [P.S.] None of the preceding message is intended as a flame or derogatory or incendiary composition. It is simply observation and suggestion, intended only as non-judgemental assistance in times of turmoil. If anyone is offended by any of this, please remember that English is my first language, and I probably assumed too much at some point or another to be comprehensible. ================= -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: 2001 January 02, Tuesday 13:36 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CALL FOR HELP One last thing to try. Both Mitch Jones and I claim to be able to hear external criticism without simply rejecting it out of hand. We're also aware of the boundless growth in evil that occurs when a person becomes deaf to all external feedback, and of the "moral crisis" faced whenever a person finally chooses this totally self-blind "evil" as a permanent lifestyle. I think such a crisis is at hand. But is it me or Mitch who is self-blind, lying, and "projecting"? There's an easy way to find out. Please, vortex-L, briefly describe to us the recent behavior of Bill Beaty and of Mitch Jones. Maybe a concerted effort from disinterested outsiders will tear away the lies. Be compassionate and respectful, but use blunt honesty. Criticize our behavior, not our character. If you must, send messages privately. Recent Bill/Mitch messages: http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html Well, happy new year. I guess! :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:01:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24767; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:00:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:00:23 -0800 Sender: jack r2d2.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3A51FAF0.79CE765B centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:59:44 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NAMECALLING References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: <"YkkNl.0.v26.7qUKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: Speaking for myself, I came here ... in order to enjoy a healthy freedom of spirit and imagination, and have found vortex to be very theraputic in that regard. ... I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to Bill Beaty for creating his science lists, and that being here is a privilege, not a right ... This is a lightly moderated list. The moderator presides ... I would like to see you stick around Mithcell ... Hi All, If I recall correctly, this thread stemmed from Mitch's criticism of the Mpemba effect. What seems like long ago, I more or less duplicated this experiment using ice-cube trays in the freezing compartment of my refrigerator, and I added it to may repertoire of "illusions". Personally, at the beginning of the Mpemba discussion, I was hoping that Mitch would use his talents to suggest how the Mpemba effect could occur, much as he (and Robin) explained how Reines could have been misled into concluding he had observed neutrinos. Somehow, the discussion took a wrong turn; and now we have come to this. Must we demand repentence? Must someone crawl on his knees at Canosa? There are no high stakes here. Life and property are not at risk. So why can't we stop talking about the Bill - Mitch thing, and just forget about it? Given another situation, all the particpants may come up with some good ideas. One failure of our process does not mean we should reject the process. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:22:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29820; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:19:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3A51F3F4.9C7CF1A2 csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:29:56 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: geet utah-inter.net, "Michael S. Johnston" Subject: curious virus that was sent to me Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Si1Zc2.0.dH7.96VKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I got a virus called I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif over the weekend. It is a base 64 virus who's goal seems to be to erase your hard drive by utilizing the msdos "drivespace" program. I think I got it killed but will have to boot one more time before I know. If you don't hear from me for a while...you know what happened. Here is the email address that sent me the virus; geet utah-inter.net Also something called "Pretty Park.exe" which is a base 64 octet stream application from; "j.hardin" Sigh. I think I'll just paste them in line and "return to sender" MJ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:29:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA32512; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:27:03 -0800 Message-Id: <200101021526.KAA06340 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Infinite Energy, Park, and Playboy - January 2001 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:23:27 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"NMW3l.0.lx7.6DVKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happy 2001 to all! The year began with a bang, so to speak. Infinite Energy magazine is mentioned in the January 2001 issue of Playboy magazine, part of an article by Dr. Robert Park of the American Physical Society. Be sure to get this article to examine some of the "finer points" made in (and around) the article. We are not regular readers of Playboy, but we were alerted to this article's appearance by our friend Sir Arthur C. Clarke, who has a fine opinion piece, "2001, Hello," in the same issue. Of course, Park mentions Infinite Energy in a supposedly negative context, part of his continued war against cold fusion and other new energy research. Park writes, in part, about cold fusion: "What emerged after all the media hype was not a story of a dazzling scientific breakthrough, but a sad comedy about wishful interpretations of sloppy and incomplete experiments, evolved into altered data and suppression of contradictory evidence. By July 1989, when a Department of Energy panel concluded that additional research into cold fusion was not warranted, most scientists had already returned to more productive lines of research. "Nevertheless, a dwindling band of true believers remain convinced that cold fusion is real. If hucksterism is pseudoscience, this is pathological science, the distortion in which scientists manage to fool themselves. "Not taken seriously by other scientists, the cold-fusion faithful hold their own meetings and have their own magazine with the all-too-predictable title Infinite Energy. Its pages promise an energy revolution just around the corner an bitterly denounce the scientific establishment for conspiring to suppress it." The article continues with the story about Dr. Paul LaViolette's firing from the US patent office and his defense before the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission. Other parts of the the Park article attack BlackLight Power Corporation and Dr. Randell Mills, Presidential candidate John Hagelin, plus various other good and no so good science. This is all mixed together in a pastiche of confusion and scientific bigotry, for which ignoramus-propagandist Park has become justly famous. We delight in the irony of his reference to "altered data and suppression of contradictory evidence." The fraudulent MIT Plasma Fusion Center cold fusion calorimetry curves of 1989 were certainly altered data -- an apparent positive result made to look negative. And Park continues to "suppress contradictory evidence" by not himself acknowledging that refined cold fusion experiments yielding helium-4 commensurate with excess heat have been performed and replicated. Thus does he continue to perpetrate intellectual fraud on a grand scale, in which his parent organization the American Physical Society is complicit. Let us hope for and work toward better news in 2001 than this obscenity from science playboy and dilettante Park. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Infinite Energy Magazine & New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com 603-228-4516 Phone 603-224-5975 Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:34:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02103; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:31:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:31:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010102093635.00c23418 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:02:14 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: <380556596.978282856335.JavaMail.root web584-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PqWN03.0.nW.cHVKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: >I don't know Mills - but if the BLP website is any indication, he seems to >be doing moderately well without paying heed to your point of view. This isn't MY point of view, it is the conventional, time-honored way of doing things. I cannot take credit for 400-year-old traditions. Yes, Mills has done some good conventional publishing and he has encouraged some applications. I wish he would do more. >Perhaps the conventional approach has contributed to the very morass that >surrounds CF. The CF crisis has been caused by skeptics who have abandoned the conventional approach. When the CF scientists also ignore academic standards they only make matters worse. I will grant it is important to go outside the usual academic channels of communication, as John Bockris and Ed Storms have done. >He is under no obligation to play the game on your terms. Anyone who knows >Ken has no doubt of his scientific credibility. 1. These are not MY terms. 2. No one can judge Ken's scientific credibility without seeing replications of his work. In physics, credibility does not exist without replication. >In my experience inventors >who work on the cutting edge are unique. All human beings are unique. The people who work on the cutting edge of science, engineering, fine arts, or gourmet cooking are no "more unique" than workaday drones such as carpenters, farmers and applications programmers. They must all follow the rules of their profession, or their work has not meaning. Applications programmers must submit their software to customer beta testing and review. Physicists must be replicated. There are no shortcuts and no other ways to measure credibility. >Perhaps. But I doubt it. It is precisely the mainstream, conventional, >businesslike, thinking that Ken and I suggest may be a larger part of the >problem than you are ready to recognize. Mainstream methodology has worked splendidly since the days of Isaac Newton. The scientific method has not broken down. It is not obsolete. Our problems are caused by "skeptics" who have tried to overthrow mainstream, conventional, businesslike thinking; who refuse to read the literature; and who would replace rational analysis with hysteria. We need everyone to act more conventionally, not less. Shoulders contributes to this breakdown when he refuses to publish or encourage replications, and when he encourages the cult of the individual superman -- the heroic thinker -- which is anathema to science, as Francis Bacon pointed out. As he said: ". . . our method of discovering the sciences merely levels men's wits, and leaves but little to their superiority, since it achieves everything by the most certain rules and demonstrations. . . . our attempt is to be attributed to fortune rather than talent, and is the offspring of time rather than of wit." An experiment is valid when it is described in such detail that any properly trained, intelligent person can perform it successfully. Experiments which have not passed this test are either incomplete or wrong -- we have no way of knowing which. A researcher who does not "make a science of it" and show other people how to achieve his results is not doing his job. He is like a farmer who never harvests a crop, or a programmer who never runs a program. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:38:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03579; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:35:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:35:14 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102092949.03f80b90 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:33:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: CALL FOR HELP In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"CyIpn3.0.rt.oKVKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:35 PM 1/1/01 -0800, William Beaty wrote: >Please, vortex-L, briefly describe to us the recent behavior of Bill Beaty >and of Mitch Jones. Beaty: tolerant, patient, understanding, compassionate, reasonable and concise. Jones: conceited, intolerant, irrational, evasive, and verbose. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:45:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04950; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:41:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:41:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:39:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: pH help, please Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"4p3fl2.0.7D1.OQVKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can some of you chemists give me a little advice on measuring the pH of my Mills experiment electolytes (nominally 0.57 molar K2CO3 for the active experiment and 0.57 molar Na2CO3 for the control experiment). Specifically, I note in the Cole-Parmer catalog that the general purpose Ag/AgCl pH electrode is not recommended for Na+ concentrations. Instead an "amber glass" Ag/AgCl electrode is recommended for that application. Why does the color of the glass make any difference? What goes wrong if I put the standard Ag/AgCl electrode in a Na+ solution. Is an aqueous solution of Na2CO3 a "Na+" solution? Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 07:59:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA10258; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:53:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:53:42 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:02:00 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NAMECALLING, Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"nkrXs2.0.CW2.6cVKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:59 AM 1/2/1, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > >If I recall correctly, this thread stemmed from Mitch's >criticism of the Mpemba effect. What seems like long ago, >I more or less duplicated this experiment using ice-cube >trays in the freezing compartment of my refrigerator, >and I added it to may repertoire of "illusions". It strikes me as reasonable that the effect is no illusion, that there are sound reasons for the effect. Completely still water (if that were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a DIFFERENT SYSTEM when it reachs 10 deg. C than water which starts out as completely still water at 10 deg. C. Some of the heat energy of the 50 C system is converted to kinetic energy in the form of convection eddy currents, in the process of the temperature dropping to the starting temperature of the test sample to the temperature of the control. A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into the freezer. Therefore, the convection eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than those set up in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so, all else being equal, the water with the most initial eddy currents at a given temperature is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect are not the same system when at the same temperature. One has greater kinetic energy than the other and therfore a greater cooling rate due to convection. I posted this info on 12/9/00, because it is a direct counter argument to Mitchell Jones' logic regarding the Mpemba effect. I haven't seen a refutation. Does this mean I "win?" 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 08:24:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA22320; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:21:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:21:13 -0800 Message-ID: <384517701.978452468533.JavaMail.root web584-mc> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:21:08 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4Iub51.0.gS5.v_VKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: January 2, 2001 3:02:14 PM GMT Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mark Goldes wrote: >I don't know Mills - but if the BLP website is any indication, he seems to >be doing moderately well without paying heed to your point of view. Jed's response This isn't MY point of view, it is the conventional, time-honored way of doing things. I cannot take credit for 400-year-old traditions. Yes, Mills has done some good conventional publishing and he has encouraged some applications. I wish he would do more. The fact is that Mills has a commercial firm with a body of proprietary intellectual property. His approach reflects that set of concerns. It has been very different from that often followed by an academic or scientist in the national labs. Prior to this post your remarks concerning his work were strongly negative. I'm glad to see the change. >Perhaps the conventional approach has contributed to the very morass that >surrounds CF. The CF crisis has been caused by skeptics who have abandoned the conventional approach. When the CF scientists also ignore academic standards they only make matters worse. I will grant it is important to go outside the usual academic channels of communication, as John Bockris and Ed Storms have done. I have enormous respect for Bockris and Storms. However, inventors and firms that support them, often choose to publish breakthrough research only in the patent literature. I once had dinner with the Director of Superconductivity at a major firm. He said as we finished our meal: "If we had a room temperature superconductor we would not publish, nor reveal that fact, until it appeared in a product." I think the attitude is common in industry. I suggest this approach does not ignore standards, it reflects the reality of a market economy. >He is under no obligation to play the game on your terms. Anyone who knows >Ken has no doubt of his scientific credibility. 1. These are not MY terms. 2. No one can judge Ken's scientific credibility without seeing replications of his work. In physics, credibility does not exist without replication. You seem to be unaware that you act as though you are the arbiter of proper behavior. As one who boasts of success in business, you seem to neglect the fact that patent law often acts as a restraint. Replication is often done in private for this reason. >In my experience inventors >who work on the cutting edge are unique. All human beings are unique. The people who work on the cutting edge of science, engineering, fine arts, or gourmet cooking are no "more unique" than workaday drones such as carpenters, farmers and applications programmers. They must all follow the rules of their profession, or their work has not meaning. Applications programmers must submit their software to customer beta testing and review. Physicists must be replicated. There are no shortcuts and no other ways to measure credibility. You are simply defining the path you would like others to take as the only path worth taking. In this culture the market is the ultimate test of an invention and it can be approached in a multitude of ways. >Perhaps. But I doubt it. It is precisely the mainstream, conventional, >businesslike, thinking that Ken and I suggest may be a larger part of the >problem than you are ready to recognize. Mainstream methodology has worked splendidly since the days of Isaac Newton. The scientific method has not broken down. It is not obsolete. Of course not! Our problems are caused by "skeptics" who have tried to overthrow mainstream, conventional, businesslike thinking; who refuse to read the literature; and who would replace rational analysis with hysteria. We need everyone to act more conventionally, not less. Shoulders contributes to this breakdown when he refuses to publish or encourage replications, and when he encourages the cult of the individual superman -- the heroic thinker -- which is anathema to science, as Francis Bacon pointed out. As he said: ". . . our method of discovering the sciences merely levels men's wits, and leaves but little to their superiority, since it achieves everything by the most certain rules and demonstrations. . . . our attempt is to be attributed to fortune rather than talent, and is the offspring of time rather than of wit." You are attacking a straw man. Consider that if unusual science requires unusually convincing proof - a point on which we agree, it may also be true that when you upset a paradigm in any field it may take an unusual approach to shift perceptions. Your own extensive knowledge of the history of invention should provide you with a number of examples. An experiment is valid when it is described in such detail that any properly trained, intelligent person can perform it successfully. Experiments which have not passed this test are either incomplete or wrong -- we have no way of knowing which. A researcher who does not "make a science of it" and show other people how to achieve his results is not doing his job. He is like a farmer who never harvests a crop, or a programmer who never runs a program. Another straw man. No disagreement about this. However, in the commercial world this is often done by means of patents and trade secrets. I believe that CF will emerge commercially within the next three years in the U.S. I say this based on my own knowledge of ongoing work at a private firm that I am not at liberty to share. - Jed ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 09:05:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04761; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:00:12 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102105546.03f78130 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:58:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status In-Reply-To: <3A463B65.D980B0EC ix.netcom.com> References: <20001224071430.14581.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"SEsv23.0.JA1.RaWKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:07 PM 12/24/00 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: >I propose the following reaction: >CO3-- + 2H+ = CO2 + H2O where H+ is provided at high activity by the applied >voltage. This reaction orphans K+ ions in the solution. Will that end up making a KOH solution?...i.e. will I be able to confirm that your proposed reaction is occurring by observing that the electrolyte becomes increasingly basic as electrolysis proceeds? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 09:35:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16805; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:32:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:32:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A52115E.F2EE0009 gorge.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 09:35:26 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: re: NAMECALLING Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aGhwf2.0.G64.13XKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch: Please consider the following (Snipped) exchange: ____________ ( Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:22:18) (TM) >This seems to me to be a highly idiosyncratic definition of >"propaganda." (MJ) ***{Not at all. Here is the complete writeup under "propaganda," from my copy of the *American Collegiate Dictionary* (pg. 970): "1. the particular doctrine or principles propagated by an organization or concerted movement. 2. such an organization or concerted movement. 3. College of Propaganda, a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision of the foreign missions of the Roman Catholic Church, and the training of priests for those missions." Of the three possible usages listed, only the first--the most common usage--could have reasonably been what you intended. Thus I asked you to name the organization or mass movement which you believe advocates reasoned dialogue as part of its doctrine. --Mitchell Jones}*** ______________________ (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:51:18) (TM) This is interesting. Absent a publication DATE, and since this is not an accurate definition relative to current usage, I presume that this is from a dictionary published well BEFORE the soviet and fascist propaganda campaigns of the early 20th century. Assuming the above presumption be accurate, surely you can see that someone using the modern definition of propaganda might consider that your response looks like the "Shift of Scene" propaganda technique: "Shift of Scene. With this technique, the propagandist replaces one "field of battle" with another. It is an attempt to take the spotlight off an unfavorable situation or condition by shifting it to another, preferably of the opponent, so as to force the enemy to go on the defense." ________________________ (Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:52:28 ) (You made absolutely NO response to the above, instead)= (MJ) Bottom line: I am tired of this topic, and I suggest that you drop it. --MJ}*** Now, please consider the following quotes from your latest post: _________________ (1 Jan 2001 10:38:35) ...see through your transparent evasions. --MJ}*** The implication: you are just another pathological evader, very much like the "pathological skeptics" whom you decry--which means: a person who, when he discovers that he has taken a position he cannot defend, has recourse to tactics intended to cover up that state of affairs, either by introducing pejoratives into the discussion, or by bobbing and weaving and switching the subject, or by simply ignoring the statements of his opponent and responding to fantasies of his own concoction instead. You can insinuate that I am a "pathological skeptic," and I can insinuate that you are a "pathological evader." ...I suggest that you are a "pathological evader," and while I am not willing to respond in kind to mindless juvenile accusations and insults... ...you are a "pathological evader"... ...see through your transparent evasions. --MJ}*** _______________ Can you see how someone could think that your response, and lack of response, (regarding the use of propaganda techniques) constitute the same kind of evasion you believe you see in BillB? You don't need to respond, but please think about this idea. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 09:54:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23570; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:50:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:50:43 -0800 Message-ID: <382765953.978457836702.JavaMail.root web628-mc> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:50:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Last paragraph clarification on my last post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"TZaLF.0.Cm5.pJXKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The comment below was mine and not Jed's. I believe that CF will emerge commercially within the next three years in the U.S. I say this based on my own knowledge of ongoing work at a private firm that I am not at liberty to share. The e-mail system I'm using did not reveal Jed's name at the bottom of the post. Mark Goldes, Magnetic Power Inc., Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 10:27:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31977; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:15:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:15:32 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: CALL FOR HELP Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:18:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"MmtWS1.0.Np7.3hXKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All. I've posted earlier an analysis of M. Jones behavior, in short I think that Mitch is here to be RIGHT. This is a common character type on newgroups and lists, and it is enlightening to consider such a person's motives. To a point. I suppose this was what Bill was thinking when he dove into it with Mitchell, an object lesson in pathological skepticism? But we all know what Mitchel is about, and if our moderator is only now finding this out than perhaps he's been too busy to follow the list for the past few years? So I turn my attention to Bill. Hi Bill. What's with the trolling? You're an old hand at the internet, so why should I have to say "Don't Feed The Trolls"! You know better. Do you really think you can rehabilitate Mitch? You remind me of some of the neighborhood kids here, they'll go and poke at a pit bull tied up in the yard next door. I have to admit a certain guilty pleasure, watching the beast get riled up to the point of mouth frothing, eye bulging explosion. It's quite funny, in a sick kind of way. But please, don't come to us after the fact because your ears hurt from all the barking. Either expell him from the list, or allow him to stay on the list and stop responding to him. I mean that for everyone here, as well. Stop responding to Mitchells obvious trolls. And, we all know how easy it is to troll Mitch, so don't. I bet you can beat up a four year old too, but it's not saying much eh? I actually worry about Mitchell. He needs professional help, and is the sort of person you might hear about on the 5 o'clock news in a tense hostage situation with the Austin SWAT. One day that chain is gonna break, and those kids aren't going to be too happy. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 10:30:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA03048; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:24:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:24:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3A520F11.B249CD22 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 11:25:44 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HiFi Replication Status References: <20001224071430.14581.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20010102105546.03f78130@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dc4ds2.0.Yl.opXKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 12:07 PM 12/24/00 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote: > > >I propose the following reaction: > >CO3-- + 2H+ = CO2 + H2O where H+ is provided at high activity by the applied > >voltage. > > This reaction orphans K+ ions in the solution. Will that end up making a > KOH solution?...i.e. will I be able to confirm that your proposed reaction > is occurring by observing that the electrolyte becomes increasingly basic > as electrolysis proceeds? Yes, that is the idea. The K+ is offset by OH- , thereby producing a more basic solution. In brief, K2CO3 is converted to KOH, both being dissolved in the electrolyte. Because only a fraction of the K2CO3 will be converted, the mixture of K2CO3+KOH will become a buffered solution and will acquire a fixed pH as the conversion takes place. Consequently, you should see a rapid change in pH initially followed by hardly any change at all. Ed > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 10:43:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05001; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:30:30 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: pH help, please Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:33:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"0KGJb3.0._D1.5vXKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott. I have a standard Ag/AgCl pH probe, and it's buffer solution is basically KCl. I would question the usefullness of this type of probe in your experiment, as you will undoubtedly be contaminating the solution with silver as well as potassium and clorine. I assume you are trying to actively monitor pH? If so, a better way is to draw off samples periodically and test them. No contamination. I'm not sure about the amber glass thing, but ordinary glass has a substantial amount of sodium in it and perhaps this is the problem? Sometimes, to avoid contamination, a bridge is made by taking a long U tube filled with a buffer electrolyte which is capped at both ends with porous ceramic. The buffer in your case would probably be the same thing as the actual solution you're measuring. The point is to slow the diffusion of contaminate from the probe. By the way, what were the end results of your gas measurements? K. -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:40 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: pH help, please Can some of you chemists give me a little advice on measuring the pH of my Mills experiment electolytes (nominally 0.57 molar K2CO3 for the active experiment and 0.57 molar Na2CO3 for the control experiment). Specifically, I note in the Cole-Parmer catalog that the general purpose Ag/AgCl pH electrode is not recommended for Na+ concentrations. Instead an "amber glass" Ag/AgCl electrode is recommended for that application. Why does the color of the glass make any difference? What goes wrong if I put the standard Ag/AgCl electrode in a Na+ solution. Is an aqueous solution of Na2CO3 a "Na+" solution? Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 10:57:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10608; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:42:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:42:08 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010102121944.02c78388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:38:32 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: <384517701.978452468533.JavaMail.root web584-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"rlT13.0.gb2.04YKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: The fact is that Mills has a commercial firm with a body of proprietary intellectual property. His approach reflects that set of concerns. It has been very different from that often followed by an academic or scientist in the national labs. Naturally. But in the end, he has to either publish (the academic route), or sell a product (the commercial route). If, after some number of years, he does not publish or sell, he must be judged a failure. Prior to this post your remarks concerning his work were strongly negative. I'm glad to see the change. I have never criticized his work, which is over my head. I remain strongly negative about his business practices and his use of investor's money. I have enormous respect for Bockris and Storms. However, inventors and firms that support them, often choose to publish breakthrough research only in the patent literature. A patent does not prove an invention works. Many impossible or unworkable devices have been patented. If Shoulders wishes to be judged as an inventor or commercial product developer, instead of a scientist, then he must develop and sell a product -- OR someone else has to sell a product based on his patent. Until that happens he has no credibility, we have no way of knowing whether he is right or wrong, and he cannot complain when people refuse to believe him. Every profession has its standards: Scientists are judged by replications; Inventors are judged by the commercial success of their inventions; Movie makers are judged by the box office take and the artistic quality of their movies. You cannot claim you are a second Steven Spielberg if you have not released a movie yet. No one can judge Ken's scientific credibility without seeing replications of his work. In physics, credibility does not exist without replication. You seem to be unaware that you act as though you are the arbiter of proper behavior. I am NOT! I am merely quoting commonly accepted standards which almost all scientists agree with. If Shoulders considers is acting as an inventor instead of a scientist, I'll quote what any businessman-inventor would say: You want me to believe you? Show me sales. As one who boasts of success in business, you seem to neglect the fact that patent law often acts as a restraint. Replication is often done in private for this reason. If he has replicated in private, and he cannot tell people about it, then he should not make claims. It is premature. He cannot expect us to believe proof we are not allowed to see. He must accept that people will not believe him for now. He should not be upset about this. His essay was uncalled for. Applications programmers must submit their software to customer beta testing and review. Physicists must be replicated. There are no shortcuts and no other ways to measure credibility. You are simply defining the path you would like others to take as the only path worth taking. In this culture the market is the ultimate test of an invention and it can be approached in a multitude of ways. The market can be approached in multiple ways, but once you arrive everything is measured in sales and money. Shoulders has no sales yet, so he has nothing: no right to brag and no business discussing his work in public. It is as if he were saying: "I am a master moviemaker. I demand to be treated like Spielberg, even though I have never actually shown a single minute of film to the public." You are attacking a straw man. Consider that if unusual science requires unusually convincing proof - a point on which we agree . . . I do not agree. Unusual science requires perfectly ordinary proof. The more ordinary and unsurprising, the better. . . . it may also be true that when you upset a paradigm in any field it may take an unusual approach to shift perceptions. On the contrary, to upset a paradigm you want the most usual, stodgy, reliable, tried-and-true approach you can come up with. Some conventional approaches, such as publishing in Nature, may be closed off, but many others will be open, especially newer methods employing the Internet. Your own extensive knowledge of the history of invention should provide you with a number of examples. Yes indeed. History shows that people who tried to succeed with nonstandard marketing schemes always failed. The Wright brothers are a classic example. They tried unusual approaches for three years from 1905 to 1908, and they got nowhere. Finally, a business professional -- the man who helped found IBM -- took them in hand and forced them to use conventional methods, which succeeded instantly. I believe that CF will emerge commercially within the next three years in the U.S. I say this based on my own knowledge of ongoing work at a private firm that I am not at liberty to share. Since you're not at liberty to share this information you cannot expect the rest of us to believe you -- or not believe you. We cannot judge without seeing performance data, detailed marketing plans . . . We cannot take your word for it. Based on the CF research in the open literature and described at ICCF conferences, and the present rate of progress and funding, I see no likelihood of commercial products within the next 3 years. I hope a technical breakthrough occurs and progress speeds up, or I hope something good is happening somewhere in secret. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:05:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17558; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:59:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 10:59:04 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010102135102.00c23418 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:58:21 -0500 To: , From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: CALL FOR HELP - alarming pit bull example In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kLTGI.0.AI4.tJYKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >Do you really think you can rehabilitate Mitch? You remind >me of some of the neighborhood kids here, they'll go >and poke at a pit bull tied up in the yard next door. I hope that is hypothetical, and not an example from real life. If it really is happening I STRONGLY urge you to call the police and the ASPCA!!! Pit bulls are very dangerous animals, and must not be provoked by children. The police should tell the kids to stay away, and they should insist that the owner erect a barrier the dog cannot see through. >Either expell him from the list, or >allow him to stay on the list and stop responding to him. >I mean that for everyone here, as well. Stop responding >to Mitchells obvious trolls. Good advice. I recommend deleting all of his messages automatically. I only respond when I see someone else has quoted something he has said which is interesting and worth responding to. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:24:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26699; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:17:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:17:46 -0800 Sender: jack r2d2.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3A523747.5A50BFA7 centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 20:17:11 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mpemba effect References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh" Resent-Message-ID: <"ipJCk1.0.5X6.PbYKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Horace Heffner wrote: ... Water is a fairly good insulator, so, all else being equal, the water with the most initial eddy currents at a given temperature is likely to freeze first ... The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect are not the same system when at the same temperature. [The initially hot] one has greater kinetic energy than the other and therfore a greater cooling rate due to convection. Hi Horace, This explanation seems plausible to me (although I would like to hear others); and I used a less elegant version with my students. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:31:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30559; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:25:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3A521D36.7D653819 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:26:11 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1kdv01.0.PT7.GiYKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, As I understand the problem, when the solution is too basic because of a high concentration of NaOH, the normal glass diffusion barrier acquires too high a resistance to be useful. To avoid this problem, a different glass, which is amber colored, is used. This glass normally has a higher resistance than normal glass so it is not as sensitive for normal work. However, it does not become worse in very basic solutions. The pH of your solutions will not be too basic for normal glass to work. However, you should not place the probe in your cell because the Ag+ will slowly enter the cell and contaminate the cathode. This contamination will also happen if you use a calomel-based probe. Ed Scott Little wrote: > Can some of you chemists give me a little advice on measuring the pH of my > Mills experiment electolytes (nominally 0.57 molar K2CO3 for the active > experiment and 0.57 molar Na2CO3 for the control experiment). > > Specifically, I note in the Cole-Parmer catalog that the general purpose > Ag/AgCl pH electrode is not recommended for Na+ concentrations. Instead an > "amber glass" Ag/AgCl electrode is recommended for that application. > > Why does the color of the glass make any difference? What goes wrong if I > put the standard Ag/AgCl electrode in a Na+ solution. Is an aqueous > solution of Na2CO3 a "Na+" solution? > > Thanks > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:37:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA01140; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:31:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:31:24 -0800 Message-ID: <381579141.978463874153.JavaMail.root web582-mc> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:31:14 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZjJR72.0.kH.BoYKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------Original Message------ From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-L eskimo.com Sent: January 2, 2001 6:38:32 PM GMT Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS Mark Goldes wrote: The fact is that Mills has a commercial firm with a body of proprietary intellectual property. His approach reflects that set of concerns. It has been very different from that often followed by an academic or scientist in the national labs. Naturally. But in the end, he has to either publish (the academic route), or sell a product (the commercial route). If, after some number of years, he does not publish or sell, he must be judged a failure. Prior to this post your remarks concerning his work were strongly negative. I'm glad to see the change. I have never criticized his work, which is over my head. I remain strongly negative about his business practices and his use of investor's money. I have enormous respect for Bockris and Storms. However, inventors and firms that support them, often choose to publish breakthrough research only in the patent literature. A patent does not prove an invention works. Many impossible or unworkable devices have been patented. If Shoulders wishes to be judged as an inventor or commercial product developer, instead of a scientist, then he must develop and sell a product -- OR someone else has to sell a product based on his patent. Until that happens he has no credibility, we have no way of knowing whether he is right or wrong, and he cannot complain when people refuse to believe him. Every profession has its standards: Scientists are judged by replications; Inventors are judged by the commercial success of their inventions; Movie makers are judged by the box office take and the artistic quality of their movies. You cannot claim you are a second Steven Spielberg if you have not released a movie yet. No one can judge Ken's scientific credibility without seeing replications of his work. In physics, credibility does not exist without replication. There are those who are of the opinion that although Ken likes to say only that he "coached the team" at MIT that developed computer chip lithography, it is really he who should receive the credit. If you were familiar with any of the work he did at SRI, not merely in the field of cold emitters, you would know that he need not convince anyone of his capabilties. You seem to be unaware that you act as though you are the arbiter of proper behavior. I am NOT! I am merely quoting commonly accepted standards which almost all scientists agree with. If Shoulders considers is acting as an inventor instead of a scientist, I'll quote what any businessman-inventor would say: You want me to believe you? Show me sales. As one who boasts of success in business, you seem to neglect the fact that patent law often acts as a restraint. Replication is often done in private for this reason. If he has replicated in private, and he cannot tell people about it, then he should not make claims. It is premature. He cannot expect us to believe proof we are not allowed to see. He must accept that people will not believe him for now. He should not be upset about this. His essay was uncalled for. Applications programmers must submit their software to customer beta testing and review. Physicists must be replicated. There are no shortcuts and no other ways to measure credibility. You are simply defining the path you would like others to take as the only path worth taking. In this culture the market is the ultimate test of an invention and it can be approached in a multitude of ways. The market can be approached in multiple ways, but once you arrive everything is measured in sales and money. Shoulders has no sales yet, so he has nothing: no right to brag and no business discussing his work in public. It is as if he were saying: "I am a master moviemaker. I demand to be treated like Spielberg, even though I have never actually shown a single minute of film to the public." See my comments above. MG You are attacking a straw man. Consider that if unusual science requires unusually convincing proof - a point on which we agree . . . I do not agree. Unusual science requires perfectly ordinary proof. The more ordinary and unsurprising, the better. . . . it may also be true that when you upset a paradigm in any field it may take an unusual approach to shift perceptions. On the contrary, to upset a paradigm you want the most usual, stodgy, reliable, tried-and-true approach you can come up with. Some conventional approaches, such as publishing in Nature, may be closed off, but many others will be open, especially newer methods employing the Internet. Your own extensive knowledge of the history of invention should provide you with a number of examples. Yes indeed. History shows that people who tried to succeed with nonstandard marketing schemes always failed. The Wright brothers are a classic example. They tried unusual approaches for three years from 1905 to 1908, and they got nowhere. Finally, a business professional -- the man who helped found IBM -- took them in hand and forced them to use conventional methods, which succeeded instantly. You need look no further than Tupperware to use a prosaic example of an inventor who used a nonstandard marketing scheme and suceeded. Another was Lemelson (I'm not applauding his technique - only pointing out that from a market standpoint he did rather well). I believe that CF will emerge commercially within the next three years in the U.S. I say this based on my own knowledge of ongoing work at a private firm that I am not at liberty to share. Since you're not at liberty to share this information you cannot expect the rest of us to believe you -- or not believe you. We cannot judge without seeing performance data, detailed marketing plans . . . We cannot take your word for it. Nor would I expect you to do so... Based on the CF research in the open literature and described at ICCF conferences, and the present rate of progress and funding, I see no likelihood of commercial products within the next 3 years. I hope a technical breakthrough occurs and progress speeds up, or I hope something good is happening somewhere in secret. - Jed Three years from now we can look again at the issue. Mark ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 11:59:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA11611; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:54:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:54:21 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> References: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:53:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: The Z Machine Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"PQbCe2.0.Gr2.j7ZKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton Posted the following URL >Hot fusion pathos: > >http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html What a sad state of affairs. How would you like to spend your career working on this turkey? Two comments: I think the amount of Tax Payer Money ( TPM ) that has been invested ( squandered ) on this nonsense is $150 B, not $15 B. This sounds like a great physics experiement, and even if they manage to get the system over unity, they will still have to contend with making it into a proudction machine. It just tickles me that the theorists continue to increase the amount of energy upwards as they continue to fail. I'm sure that Mitchel Jones will agree that this is a classic example of government waste. As I understand it, they are producing energy at 85% of unity. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 12:38:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24900; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:28:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:28:33 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010102142059.0095d570 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 14:29:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: The Z Machine In-Reply-To: References: <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> <3A4EC988.932 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"GYMXc3.0.w46.ndZKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: a closer look... http://www.realalbuquerque.com/arc1/news050698_fusion.html I can't help but get the feeling that this is sort of like building a fire in a fireworks factory and saying it is the best way to get a controlled reaction. I would think that you would want to have your reaction as far away form the fuel tank as possible... Rather then submerged in it. It it is probably as you say a classic example of tax tax dollars wasted. It is also likely a classic example of "Over Unity Fraud" and likely will never produce any power on its own... but if they are able to actually fire a hot fusion reaction in a tank of water... well... I am glad that Albuquerque is so far away... (K a B O O M) At 01:53 PM 1/2/01 -0600, you wrote: >Terry Blanton Posted the following URL > >>Hot fusion pathos: >> >>http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html > > >What a sad state of affairs. How would you like to spend your career >working on this turkey? Two comments: I think the amount of Tax Payer >Money ( TPM ) that has been invested ( squandered ) on this nonsense is >$150 B, not $15 B. This sounds like a great physics experiement, and even >if they manage to get the system over unity, they will still have to >contend with making it into a proudction machine. > >It just tickles me that the theorists continue to increase the amount of >energy upwards as they continue to fail. I'm sure that Mitchel Jones will >agree that this is a classic example of government waste. As I understand >it, they are producing energy at 85% of unity. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 12:38:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24488; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:27:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:27:09 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010102145401.00c2c4e8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:16:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Shoulder's EXPLORATIONS In-Reply-To: <381579141.978463874153.JavaMail.root web582-mc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"q8GCn3.0.X-5.TcZKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > >No one can judge Ken's scientific credibility without seeing > >replications of his work. In physics, credibility does not exist > >without replication. > >There are those who are of the opinion that although Ken likes to say only >that he "coached the team" at MIT that developed computer chip lithography, >it is really he who should receive the credit. > >If you were familiar with any of the work he did at SRI, not merely in the >field of cold emitters, you would know that he need not convince anyone of >his capabilties. Sorry, no free passes allowed. Martin Fleischmann was a Fellow of the Royal Society when he announced cold fusion, but no one believe him, and no one should have believed him until CF was replicated. It does not matter who the author is or what he did previously. He could be an unknown high school student named Mpemba, or John Bardeen with two Nobel laureates. Claims must be met with the same tough skepticism and tested with the same rigor in all cases. If there is one thing we are fighting for in cold fusion, it is a return to traditional standards in which the authority of the people supporting or attacking a claim is deemed irrelevant, and experiments alone decide the issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 12:59:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01437; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:52:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:52:26 -0800 From: John Thumber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: CALL FOR HELP Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:52:25 -0500 Message-ID: <6te45tsvmfria80bmp1fg5vfafakba3ur8 4ax.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010101200026.020c9728 earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA01341 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ks3eQ3.0.NM.9-ZKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I think we're lucky to have Mitch here. He's a great gadfly, and some of you guys are probably ticked off because you can't out-debate him. Who else can inform me (whether or not he's right), in prose so clear, it's almost understandable: that giant cacti are growing on Mars the US is a fascist nation the two-slit experiment is understandable in classical terms, if you assume the electron is sending out a disturbance FTL electrons zip around the nucleus at many times the speed of light, plowing through the ether, which is made up of tiny particles, which throw off tinier particles, which throw off yet tinier particles, ad infinitum. Clinton set the CIA to steal absentee ballots favorable to George Bush (or would have if he thought he could get away with it). hydrogen atoms can be squeezed into a palladium (I think) lattice in such a way that the electron zips close to the nucleus, resulting in a proto-neutron, which causes amazing things to happen, though I forget what they are. Gravity travels at many times (millions?) the speed of light. There's a lot more interesting stuff, perfectly fitted to this list, that Mitch has contributed, but the fact that I can, more-or-less, remember this much offhand, is a testament to his ability to write interesting things in clear sentences. I value Mitch's contributions to the list, would like to see him remain, and think that Bill Beatty and the rest of you should drop the matter. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:15:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06066; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:06:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:06:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010102160615.00a6bec0 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:12:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: curious virus that was sent to me In-Reply-To: <3A51F3F4.9C7CF1A2 csrlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3Qglo1.0.iU1.FBaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:29 AM 1/2/01, you wrote: >I got a virus called I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif over the weekend. It is a >base 64 virus who's goal seems to be to erase your hard drive by >utilizing the msdos "drivespace" program. I think I got it killed but >will have to boot one more time before I know. If you don't hear from me >for a while...you know what happened. >Here is the email address that sent me the virus; geet utah-inter.net >Also something called "Pretty Park.exe" which is a base 64 octet stream >application from; "j.hardin" >Sigh. I think I'll just paste them in line and "return to sender" grin> >MJ Not such a great idea Mike. From what I've been reading, most often the virus is transmitted without the harmful intent of the sender. It was quite well demonstrated to me just before Christmas that it is possible for someone to take control of a Windoze machine while you are online, and do whatever they want with it. The best course of action is to write to the sender and inform them that they are sending a virus along with their e-mails. Actually, that is the second best course of action. The best is to switch to LINUX, which is what I'm trying to figure out how to do right now. ;) Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:25:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10894; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:17:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:17:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A52115E.F2EE0009 gorge.net> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:16:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: re: NAMECALLING Resent-Message-ID: <"k4QkD2.0.7g2.iLaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitch: > >Please consider the following (Snipped) exchange: >____________ >( Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:22:18) > >(TM) >>This seems to me to be a highly idiosyncratic definition of >>"propaganda." > >(MJ) >***{Not at all. Here is the complete writeup under "propaganda," from my >copy of the *American Collegiate Dictionary* (pg. 970): > >"1. the particular doctrine or principles propagated by an organization >or >concerted movement. 2. such an organization or concerted movement. 3. >College of Propaganda, a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by >Pope Gregory XV, having supervision of the foreign missions of the Roman >Catholic Church, and the training of priests for those missions." > >Of the three possible usages listed, only the first--the most common >usage--could have reasonably been what you intended. Thus I asked you to >name the organization or mass movement which you believe advocates >reasoned >dialogue as part of its doctrine. > >--Mitchell Jones}*** > >______________________ >(Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:51:18) > >(TM) >This is interesting. Absent a publication DATE, and since this >is not an accurate definition relative to current usage, I presume >that this is from a dictionary published well BEFORE the soviet and >fascist propaganda campaigns of the early 20th century. > >Assuming the above presumption be accurate, surely you can see >that someone using the modern definition of propaganda might >consider that your response looks like the "Shift of Scene" >propaganda technique: > >"Shift of Scene. > With this technique, the propagandist replaces > one "field of battle" with another. It is an attempt to take > the spotlight off an unfavorable situation or condition by >shifting it to another, preferably of the opponent, so as to > force the enemy to go on the defense." > >________________________ >(Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:52:28 ) > >(You made absolutely NO response to the above, instead)= > >(MJ) > Bottom line: I am tired of this >topic, and I suggest that you drop it. --MJ}*** > > >Now, please consider the following quotes from your latest post: >_________________ >(1 Jan 2001 10:38:35) > >...see through your transparent evasions. --MJ}*** > >The implication: >you are just another pathological evader, very much like the >"pathological >skeptics" whom you decry--which means: a person who, when he discovers >that >he has taken a position he cannot defend, has recourse to tactics >intended >to cover up that state of affairs, either by introducing pejoratives >into >the discussion, or by bobbing and weaving and switching the subject, or >by >simply ignoring the statements of his opponent and responding to >fantasies >of his own concoction instead. > >You can insinuate that I am a "pathological skeptic," >and I can insinuate that you are a "pathological evader." > >...I suggest that you are a "pathological evader," and while I am not >willing to respond in kind to mindless juvenile accusations and >insults... > >...you are a "pathological evader"... > >...see through your transparent evasions. --MJ}*** > > >_______________ > >Can you see how someone could think that your response, and lack >of response, (regarding the use of propaganda techniques) constitute >the same kind of evasion you believe you see in BillB? > >You don't need to respond, but please think about this idea. ***{Tom, I am only one person, and I am very busy with things that do not relate to vortex. Result: I barely have enough time to respond to Bill's stuff, and I see your intrusion into this discussion as an unneeded distraction. After I have been kicked off the list, however, I will have time to argue about the dictionary definition of "propaganda" with you, though I must admit that it is not a subject that I find to be very interesting or very significant. In any case, if you want me to do that, let me know via private e-mail. Concerning the question of whether a *reasonable* person would see my failure to be diverted into a lengthy discussion about "propaganda" as evasion, given the present circumstances, I think not. --MJ}*** >Tom Miller ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:33:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15487; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:28:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:28:12 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010102152408.009575b0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 15:29:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: curious virus that was sent to me In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010102160615.00a6bec0 pop3.atlantic.net> References: <3A51F3F4.9C7CF1A2 csrlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"V3uIN2.0.pn3.hVaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Knuke: Got myself a copy of Turbo LINUX with the 2.2 kernel. if you are setting this thing up I recommend that you become intimately familiar with each and every piece of hardware in your system and check it out against one of the compatibility lists... then have that list with you when you start to set LINUX up.... This OS is great but it takes some getting used to.... Good luck... Till next time At 04:12 PM 1/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >them that they are sending a virus along with their e-mails. Actually, >that is the second best course of action. The best is to switch to LINUX, >which is what I'm trying to figure out how to do right now. ;) > >Knuke > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:36:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA15908; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:28:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:28:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5249B6.40906843 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:35:50 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: curious virus that was sent to me References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010102160615.00a6bec0 pop3.atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y7JrP1.0.Qu3.OWaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Michael T. Huffman" wrote: > > At 10:29 AM 1/2/01, you [Mike Johnston] wrote: > >I got a virus called I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif over the weekend. It is a > >base 64 virus who's goal seems to be to erase your hard drive by > >utilizing the msdos "drivespace" program. I think I got it killed but > >will have to boot one more time before I know. If you don't hear from me > >for a while...you know what happened. > >Here is the email address that sent me the virus; geet utah-inter.net > >Also something called "Pretty Park.exe" which is a base 64 octet stream > >application from; "j.hardin" > >Sigh. I think I'll just paste them in line and "return to sender" >grin> > >MJ > > Not such a great idea Mike. From what I've been reading, most often the > virus is transmitted without the harmful intent of the sender. It was > quite well demonstrated to me just before Christmas that it is possible for > someone to take control of a Windoze machine while you are online, and do > whatever they want with it. The best course of action is to write to the > sender and inform them that they are sending a virus along with their > e-mails. Actually, that is the second best course of action. The best is > to switch to LINUX, which is what I'm trying to figure out how to do right > now. ;) It is also against federal law to knowingly transmit a computer virus. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:37:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17618; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:32:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:32:27 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: John Thumber Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:30:35 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6te45tsvmfria80bmp1fg5vfafakba3ur8 4ax.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: CALL FOR HELP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"DKjTL.0.8J4.fZaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 02-Jan-01, John Thumber, wrote: >I think we're lucky to have Mitch here. He's a great gadfly, and some >of you guys are probably ticked off because you can't out-debate him. [...] >I value Mitch's contributions to the list, would like to see him >remain, and think that Bill Beatty and the rest of you should drop >the matter. Mega-dittos, John. "They" always resort to ad hominem attacks, when losing an argument :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:41:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA20331; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:38:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:38:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3A524D2E.20CE3084 csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:50:38 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: curious virus that was sent to me References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010102160615.00a6bec0 pop3.atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KMMmQ2.0.bz4.3faKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You read my mind. That is basically what I did and linux is what I have been considering too! MJ "Michael T. Huffman" wrote: > At 10:29 AM 1/2/01, you wrote: > >I got a virus called I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif over the weekend. It is a > >base 64 virus who's goal seems to be to erase your hard drive by > >utilizing the msdos "drivespace" program. I think I got it killed but > >will have to boot one more time before I know. If you don't hear from me > >for a while...you know what happened. > >Here is the email address that sent me the virus; geet utah-inter.net > >Also something called "Pretty Park.exe" which is a base 64 octet stream > >application from; "j.hardin" > >Sigh. I think I'll just paste them in line and "return to sender" >grin> > >MJ > > Not such a great idea Mike. From what I've been reading, most often the > virus is transmitted without the harmful intent of the sender. It was > quite well demonstrated to me just before Christmas that it is possible for > someone to take control of a Windoze machine while you are online, and do > whatever they want with it. The best course of action is to write to the > sender and inform them that they are sending a virus along with their > e-mails. Actually, that is the second best course of action. The best is > to switch to LINUX, which is what I'm trying to figure out how to do right > now. ;) > > Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 13:48:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23625; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:45:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:45:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A524D81.43CF1598 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:52:01 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! References: <200101022138.QAA16051 uplink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sDuLY1.0.3n5.YlaKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Johnston wrote: > > Name: MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR > MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR Type: AutoCAD Script (application/x-unknown-content-type-AutoCADScript) > Encoding: base64 DO NOT OPEN THIS FILE!!! IT CONTAINS A VIRUS: W95/MTX M I hope Johnston sent this to Vortex by accident. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 14:16:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32555; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:07:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:07:57 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Unidentified subject! Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:10:50 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A524D81.43CF1598 bellsouth.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"ikLIT2.0.Vy7.y4bKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yup, it's some kind of virus all right. Jesus Michael, if you know you're having a problem with this, how about installing some free antivirus software? Or maybe stop clicking on every attachment that gets sent to you without any regard? Viruses, trolling, virulent stupidity? What's become of us? K. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:52 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Michael Johnston wrote: > > Name: MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR > MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR Type: AutoCAD Script (application/x-unknown-content-type-AutoCADScript) > Encoding: base64 DO NOT OPEN THIS FILE!!! IT CONTAINS A VIRUS: W95/MTX M I hope Johnston sent this to Vortex by accident. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 14:29:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06126; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:24:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:24:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5256BE.A9FBA5B8 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:31:26 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v5m5v2.0.cV1.VKbKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Yup, it's some kind of virus all right. Here is the description from McAfee.com: <><><><><><><><><><> Virus Name W95/MTX.gen M Date Added 8/24/00 1:18:15 PM Virus Characteristics Update - November 30, 2000: AVERT recommends all users add .PIF extension to enable scanning some forms of this threat as well as other threats which use .PIF techniques. Update - September 19, 2000: McAfee AVERT has raised the ARA for this virus from Low to Medium based on customer samples received to date. Removal of this virus requires 4095 DAT files. This virus was discovered by McAfee AVERT Aug 23, 2000. This is a 32bit PE file infector for Windows 9x/NT systems. This virus modifies WSOCK32.DLL in an effort to hook SMTP traffic as an attachment. This virus searches for available shares through Network Neighborhood in an effort to transfer to host systems. W32/MTX MM is a combination of a Virus, Worm and Backdoor. -Worm/Backdoor part: As it has mailing capabilities users may receive an e-mail with a file attachment, the name of the attachment is variable, but it may be like: I_am_sorry_doc.pif, or zipped_files.exe etc. Regardless of the deceiving filename and extension, the attached file as such is in fact a 32 bit "pe" file. (Portable Excutable file, common on win9x/winNT). -Virus part: the virus also modified 32 bit pe files, like .EXE and .DLL, in the windows folder. It might search local mapped drives for target files. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 14:38:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA10691; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:37:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:37:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:36:47 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3A521D36.7D653819 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA10641 Resent-Message-ID: <"vP4fG2.0.yc2.cWbKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:26:11 -0600: [snip] >too basic for normal glass to work. However, you should not place the probe >in your cell because the Ag+ will slowly enter the cell and contaminate the >cathode. This contamination will also happen if you use a calomel-based >probe. > >Ed [snip] ...and Heaven forbid that you should get some Ag+ in your solution!...you might actually get some excess heat! ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 15:17:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22073; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:11:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:11:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A525239.5DF40E0D ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:12:43 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ji2_J.0.pO5.70cKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 02 Jan 2001 12:26:11 -0600: > [snip] > >too basic for normal glass to work. However, you should not place the probe > >in your cell because the Ag+ will slowly enter the cell and contaminate the > >cathode. This contamination will also happen if you use a calomel-based > >probe. > > > >Ed > [snip] > ...and Heaven forbid that you should get some Ag+ in your solution!...you > might actually get some excess heat! ;) This is an interesting response. Have you actually gotten excess when Ag plated onto the cathode? My experience has been that such a coating reduces the loading of palladium. I have no idea what it would do to nickel. Ed Storms > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 15:24:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25140; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:19:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:19:56 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Last paragraph clarification on my last post Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 10:19:20 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <4co45tcrtr959us7ae77e8eokv8sondkfq 4ax.com> References: <382765953.978457836702.JavaMail.root web628-mc> In-Reply-To: <382765953.978457836702.JavaMail.root web628-mc> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA25116 Resent-Message-ID: <"K_Vy4.0.j86.R8cKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mark Goldes's message of Tue, 2 Jan 2001 12:50:36 -0500 (EST): >The comment below was mine and not Jed's. > >I believe that CF will emerge commercially within the next three years in >the U.S. I say this based on my own knowledge of ongoing work at a private >firm that I am not at liberty to share. > >The e-mail system I'm using did not reveal Jed's name at the bottom of the >post. > >Mark Goldes, Magnetic Power Inc., Room Temperature Superconductors Inc. [snip] Actually it is becoming so difficult to tell who wrote what in your exchanges with Jed that I give up half way through. ">" or equivalent in front of previous quoted text would be much appreciated. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 15:26:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25013; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:19:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:19:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: Keith Nagel Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: pH help, please In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a4prq3.0.h66.m7cKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: AgCl is photo sensitive, the light reducing it to Ag metal, As in photographic film. The amber glass is to reduce this effect. I agree the best path is to sample the results. Hank On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > Hi Scott. > > I have a standard Ag/AgCl pH probe, and it's buffer solution > is basically KCl. I would question the usefullness of this > type of probe in your experiment, as you will undoubtedly > be contaminating the solution with silver as well as potassium > and clorine. I assume you are trying to actively monitor > pH? If so, a better way is to draw off samples periodically > and test them. No contamination. I'm not sure about the > amber glass thing, but ordinary glass has a substantial > amount of sodium in it and perhaps this is the problem? > > Sometimes, to avoid contamination, a bridge is made by > taking a long U tube filled with a buffer electrolyte > which is capped at both ends with porous ceramic. > The buffer in your case would probably be the same > thing as the actual solution you're measuring. The > point is to slow the diffusion of contaminate from > the probe. > > By the way, what were the end results of your gas measurements? > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org] > Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:40 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: pH help, please > > > Can some of you chemists give me a little advice on measuring the pH of my > Mills experiment electolytes (nominally 0.57 molar K2CO3 for the active > experiment and 0.57 molar Na2CO3 for the control experiment). > > Specifically, I note in the Cole-Parmer catalog that the general purpose > Ag/AgCl pH electrode is not recommended for Na+ concentrations. Instead an > "amber glass" Ag/AgCl electrode is recommended for that application. > > Why does the color of the glass make any difference? What goes wrong if I > put the standard Ag/AgCl electrode in a Na+ solution. Is an aqueous > solution of Na2CO3 a "Na+" solution? > > Thanks > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 15:47:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA00986; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:42:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:42:26 -0800 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:43:17 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: pH help, please In-reply-to: <3A525239.5DF40E0D ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010102173831.00aaaed8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"R0-wP.0.KF.YTcKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Ed, that explanation makes sense to me. OK, I won't dip the probe into the cell while the experiment is underway. Regarding sampling, could I take, say, 1 mL out and put it in a custom-fitted vessel so that when the probe was inserted, the whole exterior of the probe would be immersed in a thin layer of the electrolyte?...or would there be some disadvantage to such a small volume of sample? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 16:19:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15318; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: pH help, please Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:17:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"sdZ1l2.0.Gl3.LxcKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk writes >...and Heaven forbid that you should get some Ag+ in your solution!...you >might actually get some excess heat! ;) Ha ha ha... Seriously, what concerned me more was the potassium. He's likely going to want to monitor passive and active cells, and potassium ion in the sodium cell would kinda negate the experiment yeah? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 16:25:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17447; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:20:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:20:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A52731A.DEFF2082 csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:32:27 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael S. Johnston" , energy21 , Exotic Research , freenrg-1 , jlnlabs , "nuenergy listbot.com" , "nuenergy2 listbot.com" , "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: WARNING!!! Do NOT open ANY messages from me until further notice!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cox_x3.0.MG4.r0dKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry, I seem to be infected with a mother of a virus! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 17:04:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA30470; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:50:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:50:25 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Michael Johnston Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:49:08 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200101030019.TAA12032 uplink.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"PNtxF3.0.yR7.HTdKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 03-Jan-01, Michael Johnston, wrote: In general, Michael, the stuff you post has been a general nuisance, anyway. Is there anything you can do to change your ways, or are you just looking for attention? Nobody actually responds to what you post; neither here, nor on Naudin's list :( -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 17:05:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00440; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:57:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:57:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3A526B38.6D7D5E3 ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:59:33 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819 ix.netcom.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010102173831.00aaaed8@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gNHG_2.0.o6._ZdKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This method would work fine. Ed Scott Little wrote: > Thanks Ed, that explanation makes sense to me. > > OK, I won't dip the probe into the cell while the experiment is underway. > > Regarding sampling, could I take, say, 1 mL out and put it in a > custom-fitted vessel so that when the probe was inserted, the whole > exterior of the probe would be immersed in a thin layer of the > electrolyte?...or would there be some disadvantage to such a small volume > of sample? > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 17:55:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA21781; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:50:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:50:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3A528842.96A74472 csrlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:02:42 -0500 From: Mike Johnston Organization: http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/index.html X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EbkAY1.0.FK5.TLeKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Chuck, You are right, what a fool I've been to pretend to fit in with such geniuses as you. Although some of you do go to my site and read everything I write (just for laughs I'm sure). By the way, your mother gives really good head asshole. Want to see a video of it? MJ Chuck Davit wrote: > > On 03-Jan-01, Michael Johnston, wrote: > > In general, Michael, the stuff you post has been a general nuisance, anyway. > > Is there anything you can do to change your ways, or are you just looking > for attention? Nobody actually responds to what you post; neither here, > nor on Naudin's list :( > -- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ > -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' > "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety > than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 18:38:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03449; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:33:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:33:09 -0800 Message-ID: <003c01c0752d$0badede0$0201a8c0 m> From: "Michael Randall" To: References: Subject: Re: CALL FOR HELP Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:29:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"9pG8H2.0.or.bzeKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 10:35 PM Subject: CALL FOR HELP >>I think such a crisis is at hand. IMHO I do see any "crisis", just over-blown miscommunication. Regards, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 18:42:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA03833; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:34:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:34:39 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Mike Johnston Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:25:45 PST8 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A528842.96A74472 csrlink.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"RAsoN3.0.kx._-eKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 03-Jan-01, Mike Johnston, wrote: >Hi Chuck, > You are right, what a fool I've been to pretend to fit in with such >geniuses as you. Although some of you do go to my site and read >everything I write (just for laughs I'm sure). > By the way, your mother gives really good head asshole. Want to see a >video of it? >MJ Now, one sees what a great scientist meant by mediocre (and weak) minds :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 19:48:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA27250; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:46:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:46:40 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:45:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: RE: Vortex needs resident skeptics? Resent-Message-ID: <"dmY891.0.if6.V2gKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ***{I noticed an inflammatory post from Keith Nagel today, referring back to some "analysis" he claims to have done of my past behavior, and so I looked back at his old posts to see what he was talking about. When I did so, I found the following response that I prepared to one of his earlier posts--a response that, for some reason, was never sent. For those who believe in the notion of "better late than never," here it is. --MJ}*** >I'd be more comfortable with Mitchell if he did actually >play the traditional role of the "token skeptic". What he >actually does is quite different, as most long time vortex >members recognize. > >Vortex needs skeptics, as well as promoters. I think the >criteria for judging ought not to be position but rather >the track record of the individuals ability to admit when >they are wrong. Everyone is wrong sometimes. And we >all should be here seeking the truth. So I would put the >question to Mr. Jones directly, can you point to the >archive to places where you concede you are wrong? ***{I sorted your old vortex posts into ascending chronological order and read them all. Result: I found a single instance--one--where you acknowledged a correction to a trivial factual error. You had said that republicans were allowed to fill in blank serial numbers on votes in one of the Florida counties. Steve Opelc then pointed out that the numbers were entered onto vote applications rather than on votes, and you acknowledged the correction. You did not, however, acknowledge that your point had been overturned. Instead, you continued to criticize the procedures in that county, merely shifting the focus to the applications and away from the votes themselves. I don't have any problem with your doing that, of course: you get to decide when your point has been overturned, and whether a factual correction is or is not damaging to it. However, I would note that most of the regular posters to this group, myself included, have acknowledged *many* more errors of this type (i.e., trivial factual errors that did not overturn the point we were making) than merely one. A week seldom goes by, for example, in which Robin does not catch me in something like that, and I routinely acknowledge his corrections. And, unlike you, most of us have gone further, and actually acknowledged *errors of reasoning* at one time or another. It wasn't too long ago, for example, that Scott Little caught me in an erroneous analysis of the heat of combustion that had generalized implications, rather than being merely a one-time correction of a factual error which would never crop up again. And, before that, to name only one example, Ed Storms pointed out a very complex method of calculation that invalidated a criticism that I had leveled at the Russ George experiment. (Ed calculated that ridiculously high levels of uranium contamination would have had to be postulated, to account for George's results.) I responded by examining his calculation, analyzing it, figuring out the underlying reasoning that supported it (which he had not included), and posted a lengthy message verifying everything he had said. Moreover, there were several matters that came up subsequently in which I openly employed the calculative technique that he had pointed out to me. Bottom line: there is ample evidence, on the record, not merely that I am willing to acknowledge trivial factual errors, but also that I am willing to acknowledge errors of reasoning. You, however, do not appear to be in a position to make a similar claim. --Mitchell Jones}*** Or do >you feel every post you have made has been accurate and >correct? ***{Obviously not, as noted above and as the record clearly indicates. The question is: why are you suggesting otherwise? Are you laboring under the impression that my dispute with Bill constitutes license for you to hurl pejorative insinuations in my direction? If so, here is a flash for you: you are wildly out of line in directing these sorts of ad hominem speculations at me, because I have never directed such speculations at you. --MJ}*** Must I bring up those huge sentient cactus's >on Mars to make a point here? ***{I never claimed that any cactus was "sentient." Moreover, if you will go back and re-read the threads pertaining to life on Mars, you will discover that I put forth the "giant cactus" idea as a hypothesis, not as a fact, and that I also put forth a number of alternative hypotheses to explain the same data. To understand what I was trying to accomplish, you need to focus on my oft-repeated description of the reasoning process--to wit: (1) State clearly the question you are trying to answer. (E.g., do the "dalmatian dunes" indicate the presence of life on Mars?) (2) State clearly the various possible answers to that question. (For example, the giant cactus hypothesis, the bacterial sand accretion hypothesis, the alien cities hypothesis, the defrost hypothesis, the partially buried boulder hypothesis, etc.) (3) Deliberately and persistently search for information contradicting all of those answers, until only one remains. (4) When all of the impossible answers have been eliminated, the one that remains, however implausible, will be the truth. In short, I was attempting to encourage reasoned dialogue in this group, in pursuit of the above-listed goals. The idea was to come up with lots of alternative interpretations of the "Dalmatian Dunes" photos, kick them around, and refute as many as possible, with the hope that when the dust had settled only one--the truth--would remain. There was nothing wrong with my doing that. Such discussions are, in fact, the only justification that a group such as this has for existing. We are not here to exchange pejorative suppositions about events in each another's private streams of consciousness. Instead, our only raison d'etre is to delve into evidence and logic relating to *external* reality, with an emphasis on anomalous science. --Mitchell Jones}*** If you think I'm being >hypocritical, just look back over the past >two weeks and you'll see me do just this. So I don't >think I'm overreaching myself here. ***{Frankly, I have little interest in speculating about your personality, or in reading your speculations about mine. This is not group therapy, and any person who pushes the discussion in that direction is exhibiting very bad manners, and being inflammatory in the extreme. --MJ}*** >I find Mitchell's posts fun and occasionally thought >provoking, but he's definitely not a skeptic. Rather >he is simply oppositional. ***{Look, most anomaly claims are bilge. That is simply a fact. We need to use criticism to cull out the false claims. That too is a fact. Do you disagree with that? If not, then how does being "oppositional" differ from using criticism to cull out false claims? --MJ}*** This is the basis of those >long winded threads which manage to irritate so many >( fascist airplanes anyone? ) ***{It is routine for people to respond with enthusiasm to claims that fit in with their preconceptions, and with hostility to claimed anomalies. In this group, by and large, the hostility is absent where *scientific* anomalies are concerned. However, it is *not* absent when *political* anomalies are being discussed. In fact, as you say, many people in this group respond with hostility to claims that do not mesh with their political preconceptions. But so what? Do you argue that discussions of political anomalies--i.e., of political claims that clash with mainstream preconceptions--ought to be suppressed? If so, why? --MJ}*** while enlightening so >few. ***{How would you know? Do you have "thought probes" planted in our brains? --MJ}*** >I've managed to avoid getting into one of these things >with Mitch for a long time, and this is not an invitation >to start. ***{To start what? An exchange of criticisms? Well, let's see, since *you* have already posted *your* criticisms, the only way we can avoid "one of these things" is if I refrain from posting mine. However, as a believer in tit-for-tat, I see no reason to do that. Do you, perhaps, claim a superior status that permits you to indulge in behaviors that I cannot? --MJ}*** Please Mitch, instead of being right just try >to listen to what your friends are telling you. ***{As I pointed out to Bill, I am not moved by social pressure. If you want me to accept your views, you will have to support them with logic and evidence. Thus far, you haven't done that. --MJ}*** > >K. ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 21:18:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA28267; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:17:11 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:25:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Z Machine Resent-Message-ID: <"9kBJv.0.Sv6.MNhKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:53 PM 1/2/1, thomas malloy wrote: >Terry Blanton Posted the following URL > >>Hot fusion pathos: >> >>http://www.observer.co.uk/life/story/0,6903,416412,00.html > > >What a sad state of affairs. How would you like to spend your career >working on this turkey? I would consider myself very lucky to have had the privilege! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 22:22:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13579; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:22:01 -0800 Message-ID: <20010103062159.6715.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:21:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: The Z Machine To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"H4dkB1.0.4K3.9KiKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The (deionized) water is used as a high dielectric-constant medium for transient capacitive energy storage. Water has too much oxygen in it to ignite a fusion reaction on Earth. Sun will do it, though, when it's dying. > I can't help but get the feeling that this is sort of like building a > fire > in a fireworks factory and saying it is the best way to get a controlled > reaction. I would think that you would want to have your reaction as far > away form the fuel tank as possible... Rather then submerged in it. > > It it is probably as you say a classic example of tax tax dollars > wasted. It is also likely a classic example of "Over Unity Fraud" and > likely will never produce any power on its own... but if they are able > to > actually fire a hot fusion reaction in a tank of water... well... I > am > glad that Albuquerque is so far away... (K a B O O M) ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 22:28:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA14954; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:27:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:27:24 -0800 Message-ID: <20010103062723.21323.qmail web2106.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: CALL FOR HELP To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Viar_1.0.Wf3.CPiKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch Jones has been on my filter list for a long time, but I still read his posts sometimes when they appear in mail from other vortex members who answer him. I can't recall ever having seen Mitch contribute positively to a discussion. I think our goal is to learn from one another. Mitch is an obstacle to that goal. Saddly, I think it is time for Mitch to leave us, one way or the other. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 2 23:31:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA28930; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:29:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:29:41 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <64.9f8df4c.27842eba aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:28:58 EST Subject: Mike (Passafuma) Johnston To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: enki csrlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 130 Resent-Message-ID: <"k4RZN2.0.w37.aJjKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Well I have finally seen a complete idiot at work. Here we have Mike confessing the he infected his computer. I stress it was HE who allowed his system to get infected by the simple fact that he receives a file from someone he doesn't know, opens it and infects his system. This is a no-no Mikey...not too bad up to this point, a good lesson learned, NEVER open files in e-mail if you don't know who is sending it and always confirm with the sender if he actually did send it and he POSITIVLY knows the origin of the file. But now Mikey turns into a complete idiot. He does not use a virus checker to clean up his system, he hacks around and says "I think I got it killed but will have to boot one more time before I know." Here are his e-mails in the order I received them with time stamps. (without any virus files) Message (1) 01/2/01 7:22 AM PST Oh my! I got a virus. Message (2) 01/2/01 1:44 PM PST Uploads virus to Vortex-L Message (3) 01/2/01 4:25 PM PST Sends warning not to accept mail from him. Message (4) 01/2/01 4:37 PM PST Uploads the virus AGAIN!!! Message (5) 01/2/01 5::55 PM PST Gets all nasty Now Mister Numbskull, throughly embarrassed by his stupidity comes back at Chuck Davis with a profanity that I never thought I wouls see here, to wit: "By the way, your mother gives really good head asshole. Want to see a video of it? MJ" What IS your problem Mike? Do you know any more bad words? Do you feel persicuted? Is someone following you? Are you really the idiot you have shown yourself to be in front of the entire planet earth? Vortex-l IS pretty widely read. Don't go away mad Mikey...just go away. Your little corner of the universe awaits and nobody cares about you. BillB: Please knock this guy off. Oh, and BTW, Mitchell Jones can be annoying but I say we need to be annoyed the way he does it. Better than the above kook. Vince Cockeram Vortexians, sorry for the rant but this organism really put a knot in my craw so to speak. I sincerely hope no one else was infected with this nasty virus. Please remember people: NEVER OPEN FILES UNLESS YOU ARE SURE OF THEIR ORIGIN AND TRULY TRUST THE SENDER. I am somewhat of an expert at this having been very deep computers for 32 years. Just follow the guidlines above and you have no worry. Vince *********************First Message********************* Subj: curious virus that was sent to me Date: 1/2/01 7:22:24 AM Pacific Standard Time From: enki csrlink.net (Mike Johnston) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: geet utah-inter.net, H2OPower@listbot.com (Michael S. Johnston) I got a virus called I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif over the weekend. It is a base 64 virus who's goal seems to be to erase your hard drive by utilizing the msdos "drivespace" program. I think I got it killed but will have to boot one more time before I know. If you don't hear from me for a while...you know what happened. Here is the email address that sent me the virus; geet utah-inter.net Also something called "Pretty Park.exe" which is a base 64 octet stream application from; "j.hardin" Sigh. I think I'll just paste them in line and "return to sender" MJ **************Second Message---I receive the virus************************* Subj: Unidentified subject! Date: 1/2/01 1:44:14 PM Pacific Standard Time From: enki csrlink.net (Michael Johnston) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com File: MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR (18483 bytes) DL Time (50666 bps): < 1 minute **************Third Message---I receive the sorry msg************************ Subj: WARNING!!! Do NOT open ANY messages from me until further notice!! Date: 1/2/01 4:25:01 PM Pacific Standard Time From: enki csrlink.net (Mike Johnston) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: H2OPower listbot.com (Michael S. Johnston), energy21@listbot.com (energy21), exotic casagrande.com (Exotic Research), freenrg-l@eskimo.com (freenrg-1), jlnlabs egroups.com (jlnlabs), nuenergy@listbot.com (nuenergy listbot.com), nuenergy2@listbot.com (nuenergy2@listbot.com), vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l@eskimo.com) Sorry, I seem to be infected with a mother of a virus! **************************Forth Message---I recieve the virus AGAIN!!*********** Subj: Unidentified subject! Date: 1/2/01 4:37:36 PM Pacific Standard Time From: enki csrlink.net (Michael Johnston) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com File: LOVE_LETTER_FOR_YOU.TXT.pif (18483 bytes) DL Time (50666 bps): < 1 minute ************************Fifth Message---Mikey gets NASTY!! ********* Subj: Re: Unidentified subject! Date: 1/2/01 5:55:08 PM Pacific Standard Time From: enki csrlink.net (Mike Johnston) Reply-to: vortex-l@eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Hi Chuck, You are right, what a fool I've been to pretend to fit in with such geniuses as you. Although some of you do go to my site and read everything I write (just for laughs I'm sure). By the way, your mother gives really good head asshole. Want to see a video of it? MJ > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ > -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 01:27:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17130; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:27:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:27:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <64.9f8df4c.27842eba aol.com> References: <64.9f8df4c.27842eba aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:27:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Vortex: water contamination alert? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"AWxnC1.0.VB4.p1lKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts - Must be some ba-a-a-d juju-bugs in our water these days. Suddenly and from several different sources at once there's some pretty rough personal stuff breaking out on this list. Even The Boss looks to have himself knee deep in it. It's so sudden and pervasive, it looks, well, pathological. Wassup? My 02: You don't like someone, filter 'em. Somebody's cussing and getting really personal and disruptive, please Mr. Moderator, quietly warn, suspend, or dismiss them. When the bandwith is occupied by interesting on-topic discussions, we have a sense of community and purpose here that I think is really worth while, and might even be important somehow in a larger sense. I'd rather we didn't lose that over petty ego and hard attitudes. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 02:47:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA28354; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:46:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:46:23 -0800 From: "richard stokes" To: Subject: RE: Re[2]: NAMECALLING Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:45:24 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20010102005847.00a39eb0 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"-RJNL1.0.yw6._BmKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Please delete me from your contact list, please ask others on your contact list to do so as well, I would be most grateful. Richard Stokes http://www.engineerssite.com -----Original Message----- From: Kyle R. Mcallister [mailto:stk sunherald.infi.net] Sent: 02 January 2001 07:00 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re[2]: NAMECALLING At 08:36 PM 1/1/01 -0700, you wrote: >FS> I SECOND THE MOTION! > >FS> Regards, Frederick > >Hear hear!! I THIRD IT. I move we let Bill decide what to do for himself. This is not a democracy, he is our leader. (and a good one, in my opinion) --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 04:59:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA15483; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:59:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:59:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-132.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.132] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A52B312.D2CFA945 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:05:23 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com Subject: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9kswY1.0.ln3.P8oKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Every now and then I think "why not" and see if anybody will take any interest, or at least think about one of the ideas I've decided I will not pursue experimentally. Lets say you have a cylindrical bar magnet, say a Neo. And you have laminated high permeability soft steel or iron (Mu Metal or the like) at one or both poles (both makes the most sense) of the magnet. The steel conducts the flux some distance from the magnet (for the thought experiment anyway) maybe even making a few turns here and there. Now if the steel is laminated properly and is of good quality metal then you should be able to conduct a good percentage of flux from the magnet some distance. Now lets take another piece of steel and get some work done as it is attracted to the end of the other piece of steel. Diagram: These ASCII things almost never go right, need about 82+ char. per line _ _______________________________________________________________ ___ |_| |_______________________________STEEL__________________________N|NEO|S So lets say the steel end-piece is now attached to the long flux conductor. Now how much more energy does it take to remove the magnet from the steel conductor than if the steel end-piece was not there? Personally I find it hard to believe that say 51cm of steel is any more attractive at close range than 50cm. Indeed the perfect test would be to have two long steel conductors and the magnet balanced in the middle, add another 1cm to one of the conductors, now how much is the magnet unbalanced? _____ ___ ______ _____| N|NEO|S |______ With both conductors sufficiently long, maybe a right angle bend or two. And notably it might be best to make sure the end of both conductors are rather distant (then again in a practical design the opposite might be true) I don't believe the increased attraction would be noticeable. If I am wrong and the longer one is significantly more attractive. And the steel was not saturated, and conducted almost 100 percent of flux then a 70 cm conductor would have 10 times the attraction of a 7cm conductor, 140cm would have 20 times the attraction. I find that crazy. The only other conclusion is that the attraction is not directly related to the length of the conductor, in which case it is a possible over-unity device. It is possibly to replace the magnet with a coil, around one end of the conductor, now the same case but change "attraction" to "inductance". How much would the Inductance increase by increasing the length of the flux conductor? Would doubling the length of the flux conductor double the inductance? _ ______________________________________________________________________,,,_ |_| |_____________________________________________________________________coil_| ''' What about adding a 1cm end piece? Any change in inductance will be seen as a change in current flow. You could have the end piece rotating and the coil pulsed, but that is starting to look like a conventional single phase synchronous motor, but there is a real difference as a flux path is not being broken and closed. What do you think? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 05:29:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA21907; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:28:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 05:28:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A532AAD.6D0C08CF bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:35:41 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WARNING!!! Do NOT open ANY messages from me until further notice!! References: <3A52731A.DEFF2082 csrlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FN4Jo.0.DM5.yZoKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Johnston wrote: > > Sorry, I seem to be infected with a mother of a virus! Mike, Go to http://www.mcafee.com/ and run their online scan routine. They should be able to clean you up. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 06:48:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA10400; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:46:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 06:46:22 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010103084240.00951790 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 08:46:13 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Vortex: water contamination alert? In-Reply-To: References: <64.9f8df4c.27842eba aol.com> <64.9f8df4c.27842eba aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"se77H2.0.LY2.zipKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: THATS IT !! I can use the filters built into my email program to trap out the "Evil McNasty" cross talk that now consumes 90% of the group content.... At 11:27 PM 1/2/01 -1000, you wrote: >Vorts - > >Must be some ba-a-a-d juju-bugs in our water these days. Suddenly and from >several different sources at once there's some pretty rough personal stuff >breaking out on this list. Even The Boss looks to have himself knee deep >in it. It's so sudden and pervasive, it looks, well, pathological. Wassup? > >My 02: > >You don't like someone, filter 'em. > >Somebody's cussing and getting really personal and disruptive, please Mr. >Moderator, quietly warn, suspend, or dismiss them. > >When the bandwith is occupied by interesting on-topic discussions, we have >a sense of community and purpose here that I think is really worth while, >and might even be important somehow in a larger sense. I'd rather we >didn't lose that over petty ego and hard attitudes. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:13:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA19246; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:11:48 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5340F2.BB423E4E informatics.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:10:42 -0600 From: Jon Flickinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cutting Amorphous Cores References: <3A4E8B29.11211190 informatics.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jBcMs3.0.ei4.q4qKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, The following is a reply from Seshu Tatikola of Honeywell regarding the cutting of Metglas cores- Cutting the Metglas is not a trivial job due to the hardness of the base material. we will be happy to cut any of our standard cores on prototype basis. If you want do it yourself you can try surface grinder and carbide cutting wheels. I recommend you let handle the cutting. Seshu Regards, Jon Flickinger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 07:23:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA22652; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:20:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:20:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 09:17:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <3A52B312.D2CFA945 ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xWyVH2.0.sX5.mCqKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:05 PM 1/3/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: >So lets say the steel end-piece is now attached to the long flux >conductor. Now how much >more energy does it take to remove the magnet from the steel conductor >than if the steel >end-piece was not there? John, you can make a very general argument that it will take precisely the same amount of extra energy to remove the magnet from the now-longer steel as you extracted from the system when you let the steel end-piece move into position (assuming the steel is perfectly "soft" and doesn't retain any magnetism). It goes something like this: Consider the initial system to be the two pieces of steel next to each other and the magnet at +infinity. The total energy of this system is at a maximum because, roughly, the magnet's field fills the maximum possible amount of space. Specifically, the volume integral of B^2 is maximum. E = Emax Now move the little end piece away to -infinity. That can be done for free because there is no force between the two steels...yet. E = Emax still. Now let the magnet come in from +infinity to contact gently the long steel. The attractive force does work all the way on the external moving agent and, when the magnet is finally in position, the system is in a low energy state because of all the work it has done. E = E1. The reason there is an attractive force is that the steel is "compressing" the magnetic field and thus reducing the volume integral of B^2. In other words, energy is conserved as the original magnetic field energy is converted into mechanical work. Now let the end piece start coming in from infinity. Is there an attractive force on it? Yes, for the same reason as above. Therefore the end piece movement will do work on the external moving agent and, when the end piece is finally in position, the system is in a yet lower energy state because of that work. E = E0. This is the lowest possible energy state. E0 < E1 < Emax. Now remove the magnet to infinity. Because of the attractive force, we have to do work on the system and the amount is exactly equal to the entire difference between E0 and Emax. In other words, when the magnet is all the way back out at +infinity, the system better have exactly the same energy as it did to start with...Emax. In other words, YES, it will be harder to move the magnet away from the two steels that it would be from the one steel...by exactly the amount of work obtained when the end steel moved in. The above argument is critically dependent upon the fact that magnetic fields are "conservative". That is to say, the work done in moving an object from point A to point B within a magnetic field is independent of the path taken. This is a very easily confused concept. As you probably know, there is a significant faction who think that it is possible somehow to make an over-unity device using nothing but permanent magnets and coils, cleverly arranged. As far as I am aware, ALL of those attempts are doomed to failure because of the simple conservation laws outlined above. Notwithstanding my theoretical concerns about such devices, we always stand ready to perform power-balance testing of actual devices which appear to violate these laws. After all, the laws just fit everything we've observed TO DATE. Who's to say that they accurately describe everything we will EVER observe!? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 09:15:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31766; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:12:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:12:34 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010103062159.6715.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010103062159.6715.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:12:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: hot fusion reaction in a tank of water Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"dMFEa3.0.Gm7.2srKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael J. Schaffer wrote; > > actually fire a hot fusion reaction in a tank of water... well... I >> am > > glad that Albuquerque is so far away... (K a B O O M) This thread reminds me of the atomic collider that might go critical and ignite a reaction that would cause all the matter on earth to turn into energy. If this reaction ever takes off, you'll find that Albuquerque is right in the neighborhood. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 09:37:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09215; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:34:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:34:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:31:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Some Final Remarks Resent-Message-ID: <"VLPr03.0.qF2.HAsKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Since there will be no opportunity to say goodbye after I have been removed from the list, I would like to do so now. To that end, I have two comments: (1) The most basic choice that we face, as human beings, is this: either we learn to recognize evil, or we become evil. (2) For those who choose the former, I suggest that the key lies in the following: "the persistent advancement of substantive arguments in favor of what one sincerely believes is the beating heart of science and, more generally, of reason itself. It is, in fact, the only thing that stands between mankind and eventual extinction. As I have said before, every dictator who murders millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil." With the passage of time, the various things I have said in this group will gradually fade in your memories. Hopefully, however, the above statements will be remembered by some of you, when you think of me. They are far, far more important than anything else I have said here. --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 09:48:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14520; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:46:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:46:42 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: The Z Machine/Eachus's Flink Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:49:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20010103062159.6715.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"QQ6JQ2.0.oY3.1MsKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A while back, when Robert Eachus was posting regularly on Vortex (ah back in the day....) he made mention of a plasma phenomena which he referred to as a "flink". From what I remember, he was referring to a plasma pinch in xenon discharge tubes where he could draw an exceptionally large amount of power from the pinch during collapse. I gathered from his posts that what was happening was basically that the stored energy in the plasma was being released over a substantially shorter period than that required to store it, providing a power multiplication. Robert's claim was that he could use this phenomena to increase light output in a discharge lamp, without appreciable heating of the lamp envelope. Perhaps if Michael has a spare moment he can tell us a bit about his experience with pinch in plasmas. The Z machine is a pretty remarkable piece of physics; I don't know why it's being slagged here. My eyes glaze over when I think about the pulse forming network that drives this thing. K. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Schaffer [mailto:schaffermj yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:22 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Z Machine The (deionized) water is used as a high dielectric-constant medium for transient capacitive energy storage. Water has too much oxygen in it to ignite a fusion reaction on Earth. Sun will do it, though, when it's dying. > I can't help but get the feeling that this is sort of like building a > fire > in a fireworks factory and saying it is the best way to get a controlled > reaction. I would think that you would want to have your reaction as far > away form the fuel tank as possible... Rather then submerged in it. > > It it is probably as you say a classic example of tax tax dollars > wasted. It is also likely a classic example of "Over Unity Fraud" and > likely will never produce any power on its own... but if they are able > to > actually fire a hot fusion reaction in a tank of water... well... I > am > glad that Albuquerque is so far away... (K a B O O M) ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 10:26:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28089; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:22:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:30:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Some Final Remarks Resent-Message-ID: <"BfZ1P3.0.ks6.atsKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:31 AM 1/3/1, Mitchell Jones wrote: >Since there will be no opportunity to say goodbye after I have been removed >from the list, I would like to do so now. To that end, I have two comments: > >(1) The most basic choice that we face, as human beings, is this: either we >learn to recognize evil, or we become evil. > >(2) For those who choose the former, I suggest that the key lies in the >following: > >"the persistent advancement of substantive arguments in favor of what one >sincerely believes is the beating heart of science and, more generally, of >reason itself. It is, in fact, the only thing that stands between mankind >and eventual extinction. As I have said before, every dictator who murders >millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, >every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every >blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions >arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned >debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. >Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil." > >With the passage of time, the various things I have said in this group will >gradually fade in your memories. Hopefully, however, the above statements >will be remembered by some of you, when you think of me. They are far, far >more important than anything else I have said here. > >--Mitchell Jones The truth or fallicy of the above is NOT RELEVANT to the issue at hand. What IS relevant is THE PURPOSE AND RULES OF THE FORUM. The issue is whether the vortex forum is or is not a debating society, a forum on philosopy, or a forum on political science, as determined by the forum creator and moderator, and to some extent the group as a whole. The issue is what kind of behavior is acceptable here. An alternative forum, vortexb, has been provided for those interested in pursuing issues outside any boundaries or constraints. If the vortex forum is to have exactly the same rules, i.e. none, then why have it? Perhaps a problem here in general is that the rules are not clear enough, and also that we members tend to drift around outside the scope of the forum when relevant things are not at hand. However, if your specific problem is one of not being able to live within ANY rules, there is still an appropriate forum available. What kind of forum rules are acceptable to you Mitchell? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 11:25:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17498; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:16:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:16:15 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:17:47 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: Michael Johnston Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"slDGh1.0.KH4._ftKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael I enjoyed your posts on the fuel cells. I think they are totally appropiate for vortex. Please keep sending them. The virus has not bothered me since I use pine on a UNIX machine. Hank On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Chuck Davis wrote: > On 03-Jan-01, Michael Johnston, wrote: > > > In general, Michael, the stuff you post has been a general nuisance, anyway. > > Is there anything you can do to change your ways, or are you just looking > for attention? Nobody actually responds to what you post; neither here, > nor on Naudin's list :( > -- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ > -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\ > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' > "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety > than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 11:26:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA15994; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:11:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:11:54 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103140445.00bd2388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:11:36 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Americium fission reactor proposed for rockets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EUCNQ3.0.qv3.wbtKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't know much about this, but some profs at Ben-Gurion U. have proposed using Am-242 as nuclear fuel in fission rocket engines. They would put it on thin film (the way it is used in smoke detectors, by the way). "In this form, the high-energy, high-temperature fission products can escape the fuel elements and be used for propulsion. . . . Conventional radioactive fuels such as uranium-235 and plutonium-239, require large fuel rods to absorb the fission products. Americium-242m . . . requiring only 1 per cent of the mass of uranium or plutonium to reach its critical state." I have not been able to find a paper about this on the web. Ed Storms is an expert in space based fission reactors. Maybe he can comment. The guy doing this is: YIGAL RONEN, Ph.D., (Cornell University), Theory of nuclear reactors, transport theory, advanced concepts of nuclear reactors. Yronen bgumail.bgu.ac.il - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 11:28:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA17948; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:16:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:16:44 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103141453.0366b500 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:16:16 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Americium fission reactor - article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ypvsl.0.MO4.SgtKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah, here is a short article about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010103073253.htm "Extremely Efficient Nuclear Fuel Could Take Man To Mars In Just Two Weeks" - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 11:42:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28872; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:38:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103143508.00bd2388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 14:36:59 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Progress in cyborgs - 600-mile-long simian virtual arm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"pb6X51.0.z27.a-tKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: O brave new world, that has such things as owl monkeys with 600-mile-long arms. See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001116080512.htm This is a little off topic, I admit. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 13:24:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06049; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:18:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5397C1.4835EBC8 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 13:21:05 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: re: Some Final Remarks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jfRCb2.0.RU1.VSvKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned > debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do > so. 3. PROJECTION is a form of defense in which unwanted feelings are displaced onto another person, where they then appear as a threat from the external world. A common form of projection occurs when an individual, threatened by his own angry feelings, accuses another of harbouring hostile thoughts. http://www.britannica.com/seo/d/defense-mechanism/ Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 13:50:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10390; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:29:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:29:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:26:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Some Final Remarks Resent-Message-ID: <"vXHOo1.0.GY2.lcvKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 11:31 AM 1/3/1, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>Since there will be no opportunity to say goodbye after I have been removed >>from the list, I would like to do so now. To that end, I have two comments: >> >>(1) The most basic choice that we face, as human beings, is this: either we >>learn to recognize evil, or we become evil. >> >>(2) For those who choose the former, I suggest that the key lies in the >>following: >> >>"the persistent advancement of substantive arguments in favor of what one >>sincerely believes is the beating heart of science and, more generally, of >>reason itself. It is, in fact, the only thing that stands between mankind >>and eventual extinction. As I have said before, every dictator who murders >>millions, every bomb-throwing terrorist, every garden-variety criminal, >>every evasive, image-oriented, pretentious mediocrity, and every >>blood-sucking fascist or socialist parasite knows that his immoral actions >>arise out of beliefs that he could never defend in a substantive, reasoned >>debate, and he seethes with hatred at anyone who demands that he do so. >>Such feelings, in fact, are the distilled essence of human evil." >> >>With the passage of time, the various things I have said in this group will >>gradually fade in your memories. Hopefully, however, the above statements >>will be remembered by some of you, when you think of me. They are far, far >>more important than anything else I have said here. >> >>--Mitchell Jones > > >The truth or fallacy of the above is NOT RELEVANT to the issue at hand. ***{If you are referring to the "issue" of whether to boot me out of the group, they weren't intended to be. From my perspective, there is no issue here: Bill has made his intentions clear, and when he finds the words to dress his decision up in, I will in all likelihood go flying out the door. :-( --MJ}*** >What IS relevant is THE PURPOSE AND RULES OF THE FORUM. The issue is >whether the vortex forum is or is not a debating society, a forum on >philosopy, or a forum on political science, as determined by the forum >creator and moderator, and to some extent the group as a whole. The issue >is what kind of behavior is acceptable here. An alternative forum, >vortexb, has been provided for those interested in pursuing issues outside >any boundaries or constraints. If the vortex forum is to have exactly the >same rules, i.e. none, then why have it? ***{As I see it, my original comments about the "Mpemba effect" were perfectly appropriate fare for vortex-l, and Bill's original objections to that post were wrong, for the extensive reasons which I stated. The problem that exists at the present time is simply this: Bill refuses to specifically and substantively respond to those reasons, and he also refuses to simply let the matter drop. Instead, he continues to post messages insinuating that I am somehow at fault in all of this, and I keep responding to those messages. Result: the process continues moving quite inexorably toward a conclusion that, in retrospect, is likely to be regretted by many of the people here. What can be done? Why, nothing at all. (However much some may want to, they can't fire the owner.) --MJ}*** >Perhaps a problem here in general is that the rules are not clear enough, >and also that we members tend to drift around outside the scope of the >forum when relevant things are not at hand. ***{The problem is implicit in the notion of a "moderator," Horace. We all want to be free to engage in substantive discussions without encountering the disgusting behavior so frequently exhibited on open forums such as sci.physics.fusion, and so we are tempted to invest authority in a "moderator," who is supposed to protect us form those types of unpleasantness. Unfortunately, power--even illusory power--corrupts. Result: no matter how good the person may be who is chosen as "moderator," circumstances eventually arise in which he is clearly wrong, but will not back down. Result: his character, and that of the group, is transformed for the worse. --MJ}*** However, if your specific >problem is one of not being able to live within ANY rules, there is still >an appropriate forum available. > >What kind of forum rules are acceptable to you Mitchell? ***{As I said, I don't think the problem is with rules, but with the concept of a "moderated" group. A "moderator," after all, is answerable to no one but himself. It is from this that the corrupting illusion of power arises, with inevitable corrosive effects on the individual who places himself in that position. If I were to sponsor a group such as this, I would set things up contractually in such a way that I would not place myself in such an impossible position. Here are some approaches to that goal which come to mind: (1) Contractually agree that no revocation of privileges can be initiated by the owner without a prior complaint by a group member other than the owner. (2) Contractually agree that before the owner can take action in response to a complaint, he must state his intended course of action to the group, and defend it substantively from critics, by responding *specifically* to their comments--including a requirement that he *quote* the specific criticisms to which he is responding. (3) Contractually agree that no revocation of privileges can take place even after said discussion, if said action has been vetoed by 10% of more of the members of the group. Those are just a few thoughts that come to my mind, in response to your question. Note very specifically that these are not "rules" so much as they are procedural constraints intended to prevent the owner from abusing his authority. In my view, such constraints are needed for one very simple reason: the owner is not the only person who invests in a group. Instead, every person who participates contributes to its success, either by posting or by paying a fee to read the group, and is likely to feel a sense of loss as he observes its deterioration or failure. Given those procedural constraints, the owner would then be free to promulgate any set of "rules" that he wished. The procedural constraints would ensure that bad rules would receive criticism, and would either be modified, tossed out, or rendered dead letter by the effects of the 10% vetoes. What rules would I use? Simple: (1) Introducing personal pejoratives into a discussion is a violation. (2) Responding pejoratively to personal pejoratives *that were directed at you* is *not* a violation. (3) When leveling criticism at a prior message, failure to quote the specific statement being criticized is a violation. Any person, including the owner, would be free to point out violations, but would not be exempt from the rules when doing so--which means: you can say that a statement violates (1), but you cannot violate (1) yourself when doing so, unless you are exempted by (2). Given such a setup, I would expect the group to be self-policing, and I doubt that anybody would ever reach the point of being actually booted out. The educational effects of discussions about complaints would bring about all the behavior alteration that might be needed. --Mitchell Jones}*** > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner ________________ Quote of the month: "The typical American school child during the 1990's shows more anxiety than child psychiatric patients during the 1950's." --Dr. Dean Edell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 14:20:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23182; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:58:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:58:20 -0800 Message-ID: <008801c075d1$1bcfed00$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:04:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"IrdtC1.0.8g5.y1wKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > It goes something like this: Consider the initial system to be the two > pieces of steel next to each other and the magnet at +infinity. The total > energy of this system is at a maximum because, roughly, the magnet's field > fills the maximum possible amount of space. Specifically, the volume > integral of B^2 is maximum. E = Emax - This argument is not correct. The total energy in the magnetic field is actually at a minimum when no steel extensions are present. The lower total reluctance causes an increased field strength which more than compensates for any volume changes. Your conclusion that this example is not OU is correct for any complete cycle, but if only field energy outside the magnet is considered, the magnetic field energy is greater whenever the steel and magnet approach. It is interesting that the output of mechanical work and greater field energy occur in this case just as in the two magnet case that we discussed earlier. - > In other words, YES, it will be harder to move the magnet away from the two > steels that it would be from the one steel...by exactly the amount of work > obtained when the end steel moved in. - This conslusion is essentially correct, but the reason is actually much more complex than the simple argument given. > > The above argument is critically dependent upon the fact that magnetic > fields are "conservative". That is to say, the work done in moving an > object from point A to point B within a magnetic field is independent of > the path taken. - Yes, magnets are conservative in all the simple cases, but not in a few more complex situations where two magnetic materials with different rates of field decay are present. These cases appear to show a conversion of thermal energy from a single temperature reservoir into electrical or mechanical energy using a combination of permanent magnets and soft materials with different decay characteristics. Regards, George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 14:59:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA07396; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:39:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:39:27 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103172726.00bd2388 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 17:35:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC "Cast Away" movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QYSQ51.0.Pp1.UewKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The movie "Cast Away" is an interesting meditation on nature, humanity, technology, and so on. Not a masterpiece, but good, I thought. It was understated. No false histrionics. There was no music in the background, just the sounds of nature. I frighten easily, and it spooked me for several days. The tools were made in consultation with a team of experts in wilderness survival and primitive technology, according to the web site. The techniques for cutting down trees and making ropes seemed realistic. (I wouldn't know.) There have been many movies about the Robinson Crusoe theme, but this is the first psychologically and technically realistic one. Some people that "Private Ryan" was the first semi-realistic treatment of war. (I wouldn't know about that, either!) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 15:09:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17956; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:58:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:58:44 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103165418.03f8f650 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:55:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <008801c075d1$1bcfed00$0c6cd626 varisys.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hivP03.0.NO4.ZwwKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:04 PM 1/3/01 -0500, George Holz wrote: This argument is not correct. The total energy in the magnetic field is >actually at a minimum when no steel extensions are present. I admit to getting confused about this magnetic field energy business. If your above statement is correct, then why is the steel ATTRACTED to the magnet. The only time two things are ATTRACTED is when their movement together LOWERS the total system energy...right? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 15:49:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA31791; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:20:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 16:30:45 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re[2]: Some Final Remarks In-reply-to: To: Horace Heffner Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <18718067205.20010103163045 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Resent-Message-ID: <"SynZq2.0.Wm7.NFxKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HH> Perhaps a problem here in general is that the rules are not clear enough, HH> and also that we members tend to drift around outside the scope of the HH> forum when relevant things are not at hand. However, if your specific HH> problem is one of not being able to live within ANY rules, there is still HH> an appropriate forum available. HH> What kind of forum rules are acceptable to you Mitchell? I don't think the problem is unclear rules. The problem is that people like Mitchell Jones need a soapbox from which to spout their version of reality. Mitchell knows damn well what stuff belongs on vortexb and I also believe he knows that NOBODY CARES about his world view. That is why people like him post off-topic in forums such as this since there is a "captive audience". If he posts in vortexb there is probably nobody there to read him. I wouldn't know, I unsubscribed to vortexb just to avoid seeing that kind of BS. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 16:05:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA04066; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:31:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:31:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-194.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.194] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5346FE.AEAAF176 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 04:36:31 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0FD-L.0.S_.ZPxKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All you say is that energy must be assumed to be conserved and go with that assumption. I know that the attraction takes place because of the compression of the magnets field, the point is that second piece compresses the magnetic field at the end of the steel not the magnet. By your theory if you had a good flux conducting material and placed it at one end of the magnet and it was 10 meters long, and another piece that was of the same material and 1cm long at the other end, then the attractive force on the 10 meter one would be 1000x greater!!! (assuming it conducted 100% of the flux or thereabouts, obviously the material would need to be below saturation) The point I'm making is that a longer flux conductor does not much change the density of compression of the magnetic field, it changes the length at that density, and that length has nothing or very little to do with attraction (I believe) Scott Little wrote: > At 06:05 PM 1/3/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > >So lets say the steel end-piece is now attached to the long flux > >conductor. Now how much > >more energy does it take to remove the magnet from the steel conductor > >than if the steel > >end-piece was not there? > > John, you can make a very general argument that it will take precisely the > same amount of extra energy to remove the magnet from the now-longer steel > as you extracted from the system when you let the steel end-piece move into > position (assuming the steel is perfectly "soft" and doesn't retain any > magnetism). > > It goes something like this: Consider the initial system to be the two > pieces of steel next to each other and the magnet at +infinity. The total > energy of this system is at a maximum because, roughly, the magnet's field > fills the maximum possible amount of space. Specifically, the volume > integral of B^2 is maximum. E = Emax > > Now move the little end piece away to -infinity. That can be done for free > because there is no force between the two steels...yet. E = Emax still. > > Now let the magnet come in from +infinity to contact gently the long > steel. The attractive force does work all the way on the external moving > agent and, when the magnet is finally in position, the system is in a low > energy state because of all the work it has done. E = E1. The reason > there is an attractive force is that the steel is "compressing" the > magnetic field and thus reducing the volume integral of B^2. In other > words, energy is conserved as the original magnetic field energy is > converted into mechanical work. > > Now let the end piece start coming in from infinity. Is there an > attractive force on it? Yes, for the same reason as above. Therefore the > end piece movement will do work on the external moving agent and, when the > end piece is finally in position, the system is in a yet lower energy state > because of that work. E = E0. This is the lowest possible energy > state. E0 < E1 < Emax. Here is my problem with what you say, you say the energy is in a lower state because work has been done, however because this is an attempt to break the so-called "law of conservation of energy/thermodynamics" you can't just assume that the energy state has been lowered because of the work done. You must show otherwise that it takes proportionally greater energy, you have not done this. > > > Now remove the magnet to infinity. Because of the attractive force, we > have to do work on the system and the amount is exactly equal to the entire > difference between E0 and Emax. In other words, when the magnet is all the > way back out at +infinity, the system better have exactly the same energy > as it did to start with...Emax. If by "system" you mean magnetic then yes, but I believe it will have created extra energy in doing so. (say compression of springs) > > > In other words, YES, it will be harder to move the magnet away from the two > steels that it would be from the one steel...by exactly the amount of work > obtained when the end steel moved in. You have not shown this, merely assumed this based on a "Law" which you have evoked which is the same law I'm trying to show is false. > > > The above argument is critically dependent upon the fact that magnetic > fields are "conservative". That is to say, the work done in moving an > object from point A to point B within a magnetic field is independent of > the path taken. > > This is a very easily confused concept. As you probably know, there is a > significant faction who think that it is possible somehow to make an > over-unity device using nothing but permanent magnets and coils, cleverly > arranged. As far as I am aware, ALL of those attempts are doomed to > failure because of the simple conservation laws outlined above. I believe they are not doomed, though I doubt any will mathematically hold out (I believe the above is different) I think a number might work by the condition created by the setup. > > > Notwithstanding my theoretical concerns about such devices, we always stand > ready to perform power-balance testing of actual devices which appear to > violate these laws. After all, the laws just fit everything we've observed > TO DATE. Who's to say that they accurately describe everything we will > EVER observe!? I disagree that they fit everything to date, there are even mathematical violations of the conservation of energy and Newtons "for every action..." Want to know what they are? > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 17:00:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06842; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:49:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:49:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 18:49:06 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-reply-to: <3A5346FE.AEAAF176 ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"nazX_1.0.qg1.UYyKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:36 AM 1/4/2001 +1300, John Berry wrote: > Notwithstanding my theoretical concerns about such devices, we always stand > > ready to perform power-balance testing of actual devices which appear to > > violate these laws. After all, the laws just fit everything we've observed > > TO DATE. Who's to say that they accurately describe everything we will > > EVER observe!? > >I disagree that they fit everything to date, there are even mathematical >violations of the >conservation of energy and Newtons "for every action..." > >Want to know what they are? Sure...let's hear 'em. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 17:26:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13660; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:05:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:04:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mitch booted off? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zgWMv2.0.IL3.zmyKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Since there will be no opportunity to say goodbye after I have been > removed from the list, I would like to do so now. To that end, I have > two comments: Again with this stuff, eh? The last time you started up about being "booted off", I said this below. My position has not changed. Only one thing has changed: earlier, several subscribers essentially requested that we have a vote about removing you. You talked about it as well. I've never had to do such a thing on any of my lists. http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/m15875.html > First off, Mitch, if you are talking about being "booted off", you > must be unfamiliar with my moderation behavior across history. I > escalate control as follows. When I see a problem, first I discuss > the issue. Then I give warnings. Then I ask that the thread be moved > to vortexB. Then I stop asking, and move the offender temporarily to > vortexB. I listen to input during this whole sequence, and sometimes > alter my position. When I push someone off vortex, sometimes the > person in question vanishes. This is because sometimes they leave in > a huff. Sometimes they go off and start their own list. Sometimes > they resubscribe and lurk on Vortex-L. > > You are relatively safe in insulting me, if "safe" means your > remaining on the list. I pay more attention to insults directed at > others. And as far as the present conversation, I am only at the > discussions/warnings stage. If you feel an implied threat of > unsubscription based on your experiences in other forums, then > perhaps you are making assumptions which don't apply to vortex-L. > The "threat" at present is that I might move the Mpemba-questioning > thread off-list. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 17:34:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA19858; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:22:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:22:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:22:14 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: Keith Nagel cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: CALL FOR HELP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Z66492.0.-r4.A1zKw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > I've posted earlier an analysis of M. Jones behavior, in short I think > that Mitch is here to be RIGHT. This is a common character type on > newgroups and lists, and it is enlightening to consider such a person's > motives. To a point. I suppose this was what Bill was thinking when he > dove into it with Mitchell, an object lesson in pathological skepticism? > But we all know what Mitchel is about, and if our moderator is only now > finding this out than perhaps he's been too busy to follow the list for > the past few years? Heh, remember the "static electricity is not high voltage" thread? And several others? > So I turn my attention to Bill. Hi Bill. What's with the > trolling? You're an old hand at the internet, so why > should I have to say "Don't Feed The Trolls"! You know better. Could you do something for me? It takes time, so I'll understand if you refuse. Please read only my messages (skip the ones from Mitch) and see if you think I'm just talking to Mitch as if he were a human being, or if I'm "trolling". http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/mvb.html Mitch takes insult and takes insult repeatedly, yet I'm very confused, because I gave none. Should I apologize? But I have no reason to, and I will treat everyone here on vortex in the future just as I have done with Mitch. All of the horrible "insinuations" Mitch complains about are all in his head, they're the result of "Straw man" stuff, of his changing my words and then responding to the altered version. (Am I REALLY banning words such as "bogus" like Mitch insists that I am? OF COURSE NOT. Am I REALLY banning the use of logic on vortex as Mitch insists that I am? OF COURSE NOT. And many, many more examples of similar strange assumptions on Mitch's part.) Please tell me, how can I ever deliver warnings or criticism, if he sees it NOT as pointing out misbehavior, but instead as character assasination? Read my messages above by themselves. Would *YOU* feel immensely insulted if I said these things to you? Honestly? > Do you really think you can rehabilitate Mitch? I can talk to him, and if that fails to change anything, I can try other approaches (such as asking this group to give him honest 3rd-party appraisals of his behavior.) > You remind > me of some of the neighborhood kids here, they'll go > and poke at a pit bull tied up in the yard next door. > I have to admit a certain guilty pleasure, watching > the beast get riled up to the point of mouth frothing, > eye bulging explosion. It's quite funny, in a sick kind > of way. But please, don't come to us after the > fact because your ears hurt from all the barking. My ears do not hurt in the slightest. However, I find that he absolutely refuses to listen to me. Perhaps words from third parties will have an effect? That's why I'm asking vortex-L to deliver some. Maybe comments from other vortex users will cause him to stop and actually sit down and seriously examine his own behavior. > > Either expell him from the list, He's violated no rules. We could add a "no insults" rule to vortex, like the one on freenrg-L. In my opinion, having such a rule would not have changed the present situation. > or > allow him to stay on the list and stop responding to him. > I mean that for everyone here, as well. Stop responding > to Mitchells obvious trolls. Most of his "obvious trolls" look like simple human conversation to me. If everyone on Vortex is supposed to stop talking to Mitch, then we have a serious problem, and avoiding the problem is the wrong solution in my opinion. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 17:39:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28712; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:42:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:42:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:42:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: <3A523747.5A50BFA7 centurytel.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pjOcg3.0.R07.jRyKw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 2 Jan 2001, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect > are not the same system when at the same temperature. > [The initially hot] one has greater kinetic energy than the other > and therfore a greater cooling rate due to convection. > > Hi Horace, > > This explanation seems plausible to me (although I would > like to hear others); and I used a less elegant version > with my students. What if the water is made more viscous by adding a tiny bit of agar, gelatine, sugar, etc? These of course would have their own effects, but if the Mpemba effect did NOT go away even if a viscous additive eliminated the convection flow, this would imply that convective flow is not the cause. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 19:09:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA31011; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:25 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: rule change? Or vote? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2_jhU1.0.Ta7.XO-Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The only time I've ever removed someone from a list is on FREENRG-L for repeated direct violations of rule #2 (no insults.) All of my lists are experiments, and Vortex-L does not have an anti-flamer rule. This was intentional. I wanted to see how the "online community" would be different if the "community" sets its own standards for behavior, rather than having them entirely imposed by the moderator. After each of several past flamewars on vortex, I asked if people here wouldn't prefer that this forum have a rule like the freenrg-L rule#2 (see below). In the past, everyone here wanted the freedom instead, and tolerated the occasional flamer to get it. This worked because being temporarily banished to vortexB almost always caused the misbehaving subscriber to either change their behavior or to leave the group. But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the "neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside criticism. Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" (see FREENRG #2 below). There's a common alternative on listserves which has been mentioned several times here: on a case by case basis, expel misbehaving members by holding a vote. Mitch quoted 90% as the suggested majority needed to expel a subscriber. That's EXTREMELY high, since it allows gross misbehavior to continue even if 89.9% of subscribers feel strongly enough about the situation to want the offender kicked out. In disciplinary actions taken against group members in general, several members must "denounce" the offender in order to initate the vote, 2/3 majority is typical, and the vote is performed as a secret ballot to prevent acts of vengence. (FREENRG-L rule #2 is below) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L 2. Flamewars are banned. No namecalling or intentional insults on this list. Use private email if you want to be nasty. To prevent spontaneous flamewars, be ever aware of the psychology of email, since it is easy to misinterpret a message, hear unintentional insults, and respond in kind. If you respond in kind to a nonexistant insult, then *you* threw the first punch. So, if you feel offended, first ask the author if a particular statement is intended to be insulting. You might get an explanation or apology. If you respond in kind to a genuine insult, you lower yourself to their level, participate in a flamewar, and jeapordize your subscription to the list. And if you give a cool- headed response to an obvious attack, you make your attacker look like a flamer. If you absolutely must respond to insults, do it via private email, keep it OFF freenrg-L. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 19:16:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA07704; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:12:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:12:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010103221331.007b44f0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:13:31 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: References: <3A523747.5A50BFA7 centurytel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Pn8vr2.0.Du1.te-Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty wrote: >What if the water is made more viscous by adding a tiny bit of agar, >gelatine, sugar, etc? These of course would have their own effects, but >if the Mpemba effect did NOT go away even if a viscous additive eliminated >the convection flow, this would imply that convective flow is not the >cause. Alternatively, as positive proof that convective flow is a cause, I suppose you could vigorously stir one sample of water at 20 deg C, and leave another quiet for a long time, then compare the two. Horace Heffner's hypothesis is similar to others I have seen. Another set of ideas relates the Mpemba effect to supercooling. I don't follow that discussion, but I think some people suggest that the "frozen" formerly-hot-water is not really frozen, but in some intermediate state. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 19:36:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA17148; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:34:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:36:16 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In-reply-to: X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: William Beaty , vortex-L@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"9QCub3.0.nB4.Xz-Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:55 PM 1/3/2001 -0800, William Beaty wrote: >But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining >directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get >the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the >"neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all >complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues >warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and >anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their >own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside >criticism. Good description of recent events on Vortex. >Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" I strongly encourage such a ban...and additional bans if they become necessary to preserve the original, very useful function of Vortex-L. If you freedom lovers want some place to argue politics or debate the human condition, PLEASE go somewhere else besides Vortex-L! This list has functioned for years as a forum for meaningful scientific investigation and, as far as I'm concerned, it is in grave danger of collapsing under the weight of democracy. Ideally (for me), this list should conduct itself much like an extended Q&A session at a scientific conference. There, everyone usually goes out of their way to be polite when asking questions. Everyone tries to make their questions as meaningful and important as possible. Nobody in his right mind would dream of standing up and droning on endlessly about the essence of human evil. Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY scientific topics. Anybody with me? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 19:44:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA21255; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:42:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:42:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:42:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010103221331.007b44f0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Bl6HC2.0.1C5.L4_Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Alternatively, as positive proof that convective flow is a cause, I suppose > you could vigorously stir one sample of water at 20 deg C, and leave > another quiet for a long time, then compare the two. That's even better! (Stir vigorously but without introducing tiny bubbles.) > Horace Heffner's hypothesis is similar to others I have seen. Another set > of ideas relates the Mpemba effect to supercooling. I don't follow that > discussion, but I think some people suggest that the "frozen" > formerly-hot-water is not really frozen, but in some intermediate state. If for some reason there were many tiny pockets of liquid in the "formerly hot" ice, but lacking in the other ice, then the "formerly hot" ice might APPEAR to freeze first, yet act more like rigid slush than like a solid crystal. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 19:47:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA22092; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:44:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:44:03 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 14:43:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819@ix.netcom.com> <3A525239.5DF40E0D@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3A525239.5DF40E0D ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA22014 Resent-Message-ID: <"STVsj3.0.1P5.26_Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:12:43 -0600: [snip] >> ...and Heaven forbid that you should get some Ag+ in your solution!...you >> might actually get some excess heat! ;) > >This is an interesting response. Have you actually gotten excess when Ag plated >onto the cathode? My experience has been that such a coating reduces the >loading of palladium. I have no idea what it would do to nickel. > >Ed Storms [snip] Not personally, though I know of successful CF with pure silver. There is also a report of drastically increased H2 and O2 production with silver plated copper wire electrodes. Furthermore Ag can be a Mills catalyst according to: Ag+ + Ag++ -> Ag + Ag+++ -27.254 eV H - 27.2 eV -> Hy + 13.6 eV and if the resultant Hydrino reacts with the Ag+++ in a fusion reaction, then you get: Hy + Ag107 -> Pd104 + He4 + 5.8 MeV or Hy + Ag109 -> Pd106 + He4 + 6.3 MeV With luck the energetic alphas will ionise enough Ag+ into Ag++ to keep the process going, and you turn cheap silver into nice expensive palladium :). BTW higher level hydrino shrinkage reactions should produce UV photons that are also energetic enough to ionise Ag+ to Ag++. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 20:24:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04097; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:20:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:20:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:20:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: test, ignore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GdGpt2.0.w_.De_Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 20:34:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA08586; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:30:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:30:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:30:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"owa7M3.0.y52.in_Kw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Subject: [VX]: test, ignore Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, William Beaty wrote: subject-line prefix works? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 21:27:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29393; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:23:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:23:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5408E3.23E30088 groupz.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:23:47 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gXajT2.0.BB7.YZ0Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Please people....here on the internet we do not know each others backrounds, or why certain people act like they do. As adults (supposedly) we should have learned, along the way, to make allowances. However, if you are really bothered by what a person says, on the internet, you can do a couple things to prevent being bothered again and being an adult you should make use of them. One is the delete key, most email programs use this key to delete msg's....and also have the option of only seeing the headers...which includes the persons name...so you do not have to see the body of the msg. Another is the killfile, using this you do not even see the header, as it is deleted before you see it. If anyone desires instructions on how to do this... I use netscape and can explain. I am sure if I do not know how to explain, on the program you are using, then someone else can. Because of the way I feel about banning anyone...and because I have learned to use my delete key over the years....and can go through a couple hundred msg's in almost no time....I would have to vote that their be no ban....or change in the present rules.... Thank you for listening to my thoughts.... steven opelc Scott Little wrote: > > At 06:55 PM 1/3/2001 -0800, William Beaty wrote: > > >But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining > >directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get > >the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the > >"neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all > >complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues > >warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than > >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and > >anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their > >own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside > >criticism. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 21:49:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04115; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:46:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:46:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3A540ED4.B40E16C6 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:49:08 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Some Final Remarks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vfHt91.0.801.nu0Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitch wrote: > What rules would I use? Simple: > > (1) Introducing personal pejoratives into a discussion is a > violation. > > (2) Responding pejoratively to personal pejoratives *that were > directed at you* is *not* a violation. > > (3) When leveling criticism at a prior message, failure to quote the > specific statement being criticized is a violation. These sound like really good rules, Mitch. Here's an idea. How about you start a mailing list/board/forum/club/chat, etc., using your rules, and show the world how well doing it your way would work. Think of it as a scientific experiment, in the spirit of good old free market competition. All the people on this list, who value your style of logical, rational debate would surely follow you there. Then you could demonstrate, by the success of your board, that your method of discussion is superior. It doesn't have to cost anything, and is pretty easy. Here are two sites where you can find FREE software, and/or FREE message boards/forums/... http://www.webcom.com/impulse/list.html http://hotscripts.com/Remotely_Hosted/Discussion_Boards/ What are your thoughts? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 21:52:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04511; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:47:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:47:41 -0800 From: BriggsRO aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:47:13 EST Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c6.f7819f0.27856861_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 148 Resent-Message-ID: <"1TEt42.0.P61.zv0Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --part1_c6.f7819f0.27856861_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/01 7:37:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: > Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see > this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY > scientific topics. > > Anybody with me? > > > Scott, Here Here! Bob Briggs --part1_c6.f7819f0.27856861_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/01 7:37:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
little earthtech.org writes:


Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list.  I want to see
this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY
scientific topics.

Anybody with me?



Scott,

Here Here!

Bob Briggs
--part1_c6.f7819f0.27856861_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 22:45:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16990; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:34:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:34:57 -0800 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 00:35:26 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In-reply-to: <3A5408E3.23E30088 groupz.net> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"EEhQB1.0.M94.Gc1Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:23 AM 1/4/2001 -0500, sno wrote: Please people....here on the internet we do not know >each others backrounds, or why certain people act >like they do. As adults (supposedly) we should have >learned, along the way, to make allowances. However, >if you are really bothered by what a person says, >on the internet, you can do a couple things to >prevent being bothered again and being an adult >you should make use of them. Normally, Steven, I would be standing right beside you on this issue. However, we are not talking about a wide-open public place where all of humanity deserves to be treated as equals. We are talking about Vortex-L, which is very different than a public place...more like a protracted scientific conference. Inside this conference room, the conferees are engaged in serious, detailed discussion of difficult scientific concepts. Newcomers are welcome but they are expected to enter quietly, sit down and listen for a while until they pick up the discussion thread. Nobody gets up to ask a question unless they have a good reason to ask it. Nobody offers answers to the questions unless they've given their response a reasonable amount of forethought. Tempers flare occasionally but a general air of respect for everyone's ideas is maintained almost all of the time. Nobody discusses politics, elections, or human suffering. Everybody present is there for one reason only: to share and acquire scientific knowledge. If a brash, loudmouth barges into the conference and talks about his own pet theories ad nauseam and won't really listen to anybody else's ideas, surely you would agree that he should be encouraged to tone it down so the conference can continue constructively. In the present case our loudmouth, Jones, has already proven with a long, unpleasant track record that he will not respond to such requests. In fact, they only serve to stimulate greater bouts of his disagreeable verbosity. Sure, we could all put on selective earmuffs (i.e. kill file filters) that prevent us from hearing Jones' ravings but why not just toss him out and clear the air? Look, we don't have to be perfectly democratic here. Vortex-L has operated very satisfactorily for years now and I can only recall a very few really objectionable members that I would consider hopeless cases. Of these the most persistent and malevolent is the current subject of our discussion. We've already bent over backwards to try to accommodate this guy. Our benevolent leader, Bill Beaty has gone OUT OF HIS WAY to try to accommodate this guy...all without the slightest signs of concession. Some people really do deserve to be imprisoned. They just cannot function in society without endangering other people. Similarly, Jones really does deserve to be kicked off this list. He has proven time and time again that he cannot function here without disrupting normal discussion. Hey, I don't feel good at all about making this pronouncement. On the contrary, it reminds me very much of the time I served on a capital murder trial jury here in Austin...what an incredibly unpleasant ordeal that was. In the end, however, you come face-to-face with an ugly choice: you either get tough with someone and dole out a serious punishment (death sentence) or you give up something of real value (social well-being...scientific conference functionality). Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 23:34:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26254; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:30:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:30:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5420D8.CB2FA344 groupz.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 02:06:00 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0OEfK3.0.2Q6.dQ2Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I do not know about other readers...but with one key press I can stop seeing any thread I want... however, since know how to set up netscape to really go through fast, don't even use it....I have seen how others have their readers set up...and can see why they may be bothered by spams and stuff like has been going on here.....I am assuming that explorer, which most people seem to use...can be set up basically the same way.....if you are using netscape...and have not changed the way the initial set up is....then you are really making it hard on yourself....if someone wants to try my setup....let me know...either privately...or on the group here....my answer may be long....... you may find that you are never again really bothered by spams....or other stuff you don't like....and speed of reading will go up immensly...have often thought that setup like I have should be posted on the welcome msg, when a new person joins a group.... I have found that some people seem to get joy, out of arguments and ravings...but every once in awhile come up with something good...and would not like to lose their input....thank you for your reply...and for listening again to my thoughts....steve Scott Little wrote: > > At 12:23 AM 1/4/2001 -0500, sno wrote: > > Please people....here on the internet we do not know > >each others backrounds, or why certain people act > >like they do. As adults (supposedly) we should have > >learned, along the way, to make allowances. However, > >if you are really bothered by what a person says, > >on the internet, you can do a couple things to > >prevent being bothered again and being an adult > >you should make use of them. > > Normally, Steven, I would be standing right beside you on this > issue. However, we are not talking about a wide-open public place where > all of humanity deserves to be treated as equals. We are talking about > Vortex-L, which is very different than a public place...more like a > protracted scientific conference. Inside this conference room, the From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 3 23:39:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27118; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:34:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:34:38 -0800 Message-ID: <01C075DD.E2C04ED0 istf-1-83.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: rule change? Or vote? Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:35:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01C075DD.E2C35C10" Resent-Message-ID: <"dOAxN.0.Rd6.BU2Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01C075DD.E2C35C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Beaty wrote: >That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, = and >anyone can act any damned way that they please ... Exactly. That's why we subscribe to a (lightly-) moderated forum.=20 And Scott Little said: >I strongly encourage such a ban...and additional bans if they become=20 >necessary to preserve the original, very useful function of Vortex-L. > >If you freedom lovers want some place to argue politics or debate the = human=20 >condition, PLEASE go somewhere else besides Vortex-L!... And Tom Miller suggested to Mitchell (on another thread): >How about you start a mailing list/board/forum/club/chat, etc.,=20 >using your rules, and show the world how well doing it your=20 >way would work.=20 >Then you could demonstrate, by the success of your board, that your >method of discussion is superior. To both of which I heartily agree. Occasional off-topic posts or = occasional intemperate behavior is one thing... but chronic = inappropriate activity and/or constant argumentive demeanor demand = action, or the forum is severely degraded. Even in the rather loose social environment of a bar, there are limits. = A certain amount of rowdy or asocial behavior is accepted, but if you're = constantly in peoples' faces, at some point the bartender or bouncer is = going to have a talk with you. And if you continue, you will be tossed = out. It doesn't matter if you can logically reason that your opinion was = "right" if your behavior was inappropriate. Bottom line: Yes, it always comes down to someone's opinion on what is appropriate; = even whether a rule was broken is almost always subject to judgement. On = Vortex-l, we have agreed (by participation) that it is Bill's judgement = that counts. This isn't a physical place, we don't live here, this is = entirely optional. So it is entirely reasonable that if you don't accept = Bill as the arbiter, you should go somewhere else or start your own. = Rather simple. [optional reading: another analogy (analize *that* word, free = thinkers!), a long-winded one for those who enjoy such things ;-] everybody else should skip it: I coordinate a local community garden. My personal view is that weeds = have their place and many are ultimately better for the soil than = cultivated crops. But I must enforce certain maintenance policies to = keep the place useable. If people let their weeds get out of control, or = plants clogging up the paths, I remind them that they are obligated to = deal with them. After a certain point (and notification/warning = procedures are followed), if the person is uncooperative, there is an = eviction. It doesn't matter if the person can argue logically that they = were merely responding in a natural fashion to a natural occurence, or = that the weeds are part of a greater principle and thus their existence = transcends my judgement - the fact remains that according to prior = agreement, weeds are not appropriate for the situation and the person is = held responsible for that. Actually it is _worse_ if they argue with me. = If they directly address how they can work with me to be in compliance, = at least agree to try to clean up, I almost always give them a second = (and third) chance. But if they get all hot and continue to debate with = me my right to make the judgement, then they are probably out. They can = go grow weeds in complete freedom in their backyard or on their = windowsill, or over at the other community garden in town where the = rules aren't enforced and people have to labor constantly through the = season to slash through the weeds to get anything of use to grow. 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MAC2NtQVdsABQAAIMOBO2uMgdsABCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAAAAADAAGA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFKFAADz FQAAHgADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAFAAAAOC4wNAAAAAADAASACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAG gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADAAeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAA AAAAAB4ACIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEA AAABAAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AAC47A== ------ =_NextPart_000_01C075DD.E2C35C10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 01:05:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA15372; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:59:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:59:32 -0800 Message-ID: <003001c0762c$60350560$176f9ec3 premier> Reply-To: "JJ Mercieca" From: "JJ Mercieca" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103140445.00bd2388 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Americium fission reactor proposed for rockets Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:57:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"W8Tuy2.0.6m3.qj3Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This was first proposed by an Italian, Carlo Rubbia (won a nobel prize in 1984) See web sites below : http://www.quipo.it/atosi/numero2/boom_nucleare/par3_3.htm http://www.aerospazio.it/Propulsione/propulsione.html Regards, JJ Mercieca www.mufor.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 8:11 PM Subject: Americium fission reactor proposed for rockets > I don't know much about this, but some profs at Ben-Gurion U. have proposed > using Am-242 as nuclear fuel in fission rocket engines. They would put it > on thin film (the way it is used in smoke detectors, by the way). "In this From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 01:12:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17563; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:11:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:11:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3A543E4B.94A3718F groupz.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 04:11:39 -0500 From: sno X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,x-ns1siWpfcUINhQ,x-ns2r2d09OnmPe2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Setting up Netscape/IE Outlook Express-speed reading References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"71l5b2.0.HI4.Av3Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just installed outlook express...and looks like I was right... can be set up much better then default.... It looks like Netscape is a little more convenient...however am not familiar with Outlook...so may be missing some of the commands that are possible.... If anyone wants to know how to set up....send me private email.... Steve Opelc From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 05:43:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA03721; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:43:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:43:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-153.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.153] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 18:49:17 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3-jNe1.0.3w.Zt7Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I typed out a reply over several hours, slowly to get my thoughts together. Then my email program crashed ;) I will do my best but I always lose my steam the second time around. Still I wish you had replied to my last post before I got started on a new subject, there is no good in posting something, getting a reply that misses the point and then moving on to the nest subject. The following ideas can be mathematically shown to "Violate The laws of Physics". Please note I however do not have the mathematical skills to do so. First I will tackle Newton and his "Equal and opposite...". Then show it is possible to create energy, Both using the same loophole to "cheat". By almost any account the magnetic field from a coil is said to travel at the speed of light. Indeed a changing magnetic field IS light right? Or is the difference that the light isn't coupled to matter? I wonder what speed a magnetic field would travel through that medium that slowed light down to just 38 mph? It would be useful to making a practical version of the following. Lets say we have two coils at a distance, one is already energized and it's field has permeated local space. Now lets turn the second coil on in a repulsive orientation to the first. The second coil experiences a propulsive force, but the first coil doesn't because the field from the second takes time to get to it. Just before the field from the second reaches the first the first turns off. The first coil has experienced no force while the second has, furthermore the news that the first coils magnetic field is collapsing takes more time so the second coil is still being thrust. The only other possibility is that the magnetic field is instantaneous, so that violates at least one "Law" Now on to energy, I am amazed how many in the Free Energy and Alt. Sci. community believe it is foolish to think that creation of energy might be possible. It's not illogical as most seem to think. Can someone give me a single reason other than the stupid "No free lunch" philosophy? You can't prove a negative, You can't prove that it is impossible to create energy, You can't prove that a device that is creating energy is not really pulling it from some never never land that we'll never find. However Ockhams Razor would say it's more likely to be created as appears rather than evoking something mysterious, unseen, unknown and unnecessary. Quantum physics shows it is possible for energy to be created and destroyed, but does not demand that either happen more than the other effectively canceling out. That is a moral victory for the creation of energy, but can this be made practical? Energy exists, and most theories of the universe go that it had a beginning, so energy was created at the beginning of existence. But talk about impractical... Creation wins by a hair, but it's pretty much a draw on the three above points. Ok, now here is how to create energy in a way that can be mathematically supported. Take a long object that resists being compressed or stretched, and quickly compress or stretch it. Here's an illustration, take a long vertical pipe and have water flow down it, suddenly stop any water or air from entering the top. Water will continue to leave the end of the pipe till the shock wave hits, the water that left the pipe after it was capped was not because of the waters inertia or kinetic energy but because of the delay in reaction. This is called the water hammer effect and creates a vacuum in the pipe. I have head a claim of the above being OU. The reverse idea of having the bottom of the pipe capped is a good idea because the energy in just a slight compression of water is very great. So we have water flowing down our long pipe, suddenly the bottom is capped. However the water at the top of the pipe doesn't have a clue, not yet anyway, it is still pouring into the pipe. The energy in the compression of the water is not from the kinetic energy but because of the delay, yet again the energy in the end is more and has no relation to the energy in. A different way might be to have two long objects in space (chain or rope or rigid material), traveling at some considerable speed and made of some light material. As they pass each other traveling in opposite directions the ends attach by some mechanism. Each end of this now extra long single object is traveling in opposite directions, the ends don't instantly stop, it takes time for them to get the news, the chains or ropes resistance to stretching, it's speed and the delay time are the factors that tell you how much energy has been created, Please note that the energy in the distorted rope is not related to the ropes kinetic energy. I can also show a quantum effect that allows communication that is instantaneous, Relativity has lots of holes that are obvious once you see them. I proved that Newton was wrong above along with conservation of energy.. Conventional physicists believe the following: Nothing is faster than light, black holes exist and slow time to a absolute stop, gravity can't be shielded. Now from the above we also know that gravity travels no faster than the speed of light, but wait time stops in a black hole? Yes those 3 things above are self contradictory because if gravity travels at the speed of light, and time stops in a black hole then the gravity from a mass on one side of a black hole would never get through the black hole. And what about the gravity of the black hole, how does it get out? What a mess! My point here is clear, Just because lots of people with Ph.D. in front of their name believe something and call it a "Law" of physics doesn't mean that the universe agrees. Scott Little wrote: > At 04:36 AM 1/4/2001 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > > Notwithstanding my theoretical concerns about such devices, we always stand > > > ready to perform power-balance testing of actual devices which appear to > > > violate these laws. After all, the laws just fit everything we've observed > > > TO DATE. Who's to say that they accurately describe everything we will > > > EVER observe!? > > > >I disagree that they fit everything to date, there are even mathematical > >violations of the > >conservation of energy and Newtons "for every action..." > > > >Want to know what they are? > > Sure...let's hear 'em. > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 05:55:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA07543; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:54:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 05:54:07 -0800 From: John Thumber To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 08:53:28 -0500 Message-ID: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> <3A5408E3.23E30088@groupz.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA07489 Resent-Message-ID: <"rkwym2.0.nr1.-18Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Scott Little writes about Mitchell Jones: >If a brash, loudmouth ... our >loudmouth, Jones, ... Jones' ravings ... persistent and malevolent...Jones really does >deserve to be kicked off this list. Little's description of Jones is completely at variance with my impression of Jones's behavior here, which is that he is a relentless, but polite debater, who resorts to insults only when he has been insulted first. He isn't a loudmouth, doesn't rave, isn't malevolent. I think that some of the people here have bruised egos as a result of being trounced in their debates with Jones. These guys KNOW they are right, but here's this sob pointing out this flaw and that flaw in their logic, and they can't find an effective reply. One way to get rid of the irritating bastard is to impute imaginary crimes to him and kick him off the list. Scott Little writes about Bill Beaty: >Our benevolent leader, Bill Beaty has gone OUT OF HIS WAY to try to >accommodate this guy...all without the slightest signs of concession. Bill Beaty hasn't gone out of his way at all to accommodate Jones. If Beaty had dropped this business after he first brought it up, and after Jones had answered him, it would be over with; but he decided to go for a second round, which Jones answered, as was his right; then Beatty threw out an invitation for a poll of the readers, which people, including me, responded to; this got Jones to reply again. I hope that Beaty will stop stirring this up, and that Jones will let some of these guys with wounded egos get a few more insults off their chests without replying to them. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 07:55:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15888; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:47:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 07:47:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010104094058.0384d7d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 09:45:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> <3A5408E3.23E30088 groupz.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"3E8YC3.0.wt3.Ei9Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:53 AM 1/4/01 -0500, John Thumber wrote: >Little's description of Jones is completely at variance with my >impression of Jones's behavior here, which is that he is a relentless, >but polite debater, who resorts to insults only when he has been >insulted first. He isn't a loudmouth, doesn't rave, isn't malevolent. You must not have been here when he started telling us (i.e. raving) about how quantum mechanics was the essence of evil. Look, I realize that not everyone on this forum feels the same way that I do about Jones. If you guys think we have to have a Jones on this forum, I'll survive. I'm just trying to make Vortex-L better and more functional for the purposes that I am most interested in. There are zillions of other forums on the Internet that Jones could flourish on...I just wish he would go somewhere else. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 08:13:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27704; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:11:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:11:09 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: rule change? Or vote? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:11:10 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TEKXV3.0.Hm6.R2ALw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See my latest VortexB posting... ...me too... -----Original Message----- From: BriggsRO aol.com [mailto:BriggsRO@aol.com] Sent: 2001 January 04, Thursday 12:47 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In a message dated 1/3/01 7:37:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY scientific topics. Anybody with me? Scott, Here Here! Bob Briggs From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 08:13:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA27741; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:11:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:11:10 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Rpt: Water Transformer Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:11:14 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103234937.0218ffe0 earthtech.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CoKoV1.0.Dn6.T2ALw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: After catching up on what Horace Heffner has reported about using coils of salted water as part of a transformer, I have revisited my experiment. Still lacking a freq generator, I am still concerned with DC and low-freq characteristics of water as part of a transformer. I just finished another test-run, and I detected a small deflection of a magnet inside a 2-turn water coil powered by DC. Miniscule, but there it is. The test went as follows: 60 cm of plastic aquarium tubing, 5.6mm OD, 4mm ID. tap water at 28 C: 500 g mixed with 50 g NaCl 389vac 50 Hz rectified to DC initial current: 50 mA The magnet, Nd discdrive magnet, is 16 g Due to the unusual pole geometry of the magnet, I could only place the faces parallel with the plane of the coil, and the resulting deflection was approx 0.2 mm The deflection seemed to fade with time, which I want to investigate further. I did notice significant joule heating in the tubing, approx 2 degrees C over 60 seconds. This was measured by digital thermometer laying against the tubing, approx 30 cm from either electrode. As the coupling was loose, I will check this again. I suspect that the heat loss through the tubing keeps the temp from being higher. There was no flow of the water in this experiment - simply a steel electrode connected at each end of the tubing. cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 08:37:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04516; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:36:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:36:12 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:33:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0 ihug.co.nz> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"TcyIg2.0.U61.yPALw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:49 PM 1/4/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: >Still I wish you had replied to my last post before I got started on a new >subject, there >is no good in posting something, getting a reply that misses the point and >then moving on >to the nest subject. Sorry, I agree. Maybe we'll go back to that if it seems warranted. By the same token, you shouldn't put "teasers" at the end of your message like you did....:) >Lets say we have two coils at a distance, one is already energized and >it's field has >permeated local space. Now lets turn the second coil on in a repulsive >orientation to the >first. The second coil experiences a propulsive force, but the first coil >doesn't because >the field from the second takes time to get to it. Just before the field >from the second >reaches the first the first turns off. >The first coil has experienced no force while the second has, furthermore >the news that >the first coils magnetic field is collapsing takes more time so the second >coil is still >being thrust. This scenario DOES obey Newton's Laws perfectly provided you include in your considerations, the momentum stored in the propagating electromagnetic fields. The momentum imparted to the 2nd coil immediately following its energization is balanced by field momentum moving off towards the 1st coil. Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and p. 27-11) >Now on to energy, I am amazed how many in the Free Energy and Alt. Sci. >community believe >it is foolish to think that creation of energy might be possible. >It's not illogical as most seem to think. >Can someone give me a single reason other than the stupid "No free lunch" >philosophy? >You can't prove a negative, You can't prove that it is impossible to >create energy... I think you are correct here. Conservation of Energy (I believe) is one of those laws like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which was initially proposed, then shown over the ages to work in every case ever analyzed, and NEVER found to be in error...but it cannot be PROVED to be true. >Quantum physics shows it is possible for energy to be created and destroyed... AFAIK, that is incorrect. Conservation of Energy is fully integrated into and compatible with quantum physics. >Here's an illustration, take a long vertical pipe and have water flow down >it, suddenly >stop any water or air from entering the top. Water will continue to leave >the end of the >pipe till the shock wave hits, the water that left the pipe after it was >capped was not >because of the waters inertia or kinetic energy but because of the delay >in reaction. This >is called the water hammer effect and creates a vacuum in the pipe. > >I have head a claim of the above being OU. > >The reverse idea of having the bottom of the pipe capped is a good idea >because the energy >in just a slight compression of water is very great. > >So we have water flowing down our long pipe, suddenly the bottom is >capped. However the >water at the top of the pipe doesn't have a clue, not yet anyway, it is >still pouring into >the pipe. The energy in the compression of the water is not from the >kinetic energy but >because of the delay, yet again the energy in the end is more and has no >relation to the >energy in. This is good analogy of inductance in an electrical circuit. Yes, energy is stored in the movement of the water but this system surely does not create energy anywhere. >Conventional physicists believe the following: >Nothing is faster than light, black holes exist and slow time to a >absolute stop, gravity >can't be shielded. >Now from the above we also know that gravity travels no faster than the >speed of light, >but wait time stops in a black hole? >Yes those 3 things above are self contradictory because if gravity travels >at the speed of >light, and time stops in a black hole then the gravity from a mass on one >side of a black >hole would never get through the black hole. And what about the gravity of >the black hole, >how does it get out? Gravity doesn't have to "get out" of a black hole. A gravitational FIELD is not radiation. The field is a static condition in space that is created as the black hole is being assembled. Once the mass "goes black", its gravitation field still persists throughout space. >My point here is clear, Just because lots of people with Ph.D. in front of >their name >believe something and call it a "Law" of physics doesn't mean that the >universe agrees. Obviously...but you seem to be grossly underestimating just how hard those people with letters after their names have tried to understand exactly how the universe works. By no means am I claiming that physicists understand everything about the universe. On the contrary, there are vast unexplored frontiers left. However, the phenomenological behavior of magnets, coils, fields, moving columns of water, etc. is VERY WELL understood. Otherwise , how could scientists/engineers design stuff like microprocessors, space shuttles, cell phones, automobiles, etc. We left the days of trial and error engineering long ago. Nowadays, engineers CALCULATE how a device is going to behave BEFORE it is built and use those calculations to refine the design until the predicted performance is exactly as desired. Then, when the device is actually constructed, it DOES perform that way. Those calculations are based upon the standard laws of physics and therefore those laws are proved over and over again every time something new is designed, built, and tested. If there were "big holes" in the laws of physics as you propose above, believe me, engineers would know about it! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:38:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26985; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:35:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:35:11 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:43:34 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: rule change? Or vote? Resent-Message-ID: <"GnSq93.0.Ub6.EHBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 11:11 PM 1/4/1, xplorer wrote: >See my latest VortexB posting... > How does one do that? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:38:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26889; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:34:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:34:59 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:43:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Some Final Remarks Resent-Message-ID: <"JRfqL3.0.2a6.2HBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 3:26 PM 1/3/1, Mitchell Jones wrote: [snip] > A "moderator," after all, is answerable to >no one but himself. [snip] This premise is certainly false. Anyone who wants is free to go to some other group. If a moderator is unacceptable to a sufficient majority, conversation will end due to lack of content, or due to better groups springing up. If a moderator is bothersome, an unmoderated forum, like vortexb or sci.physics.fusion is always available. Further, sci.physics.fusion probably is a much larger group, so if grinding the truth exceedingly fine is your goal, then a place like that is more likely to be a useful forum. The fact that control over or intimidation of the moderator is not available, is moot. He is not a leader of a country. We are here voluntarily, in Bill Beaty's space, and are free to leave at no cost or significant damage to ourselves, at any time. There are plenty of other places to post. Guests don't rule, but the moderator IS answerable to success of the forum, and therefore also deserving of credit when the forum is a success. I think the rules and contractual obligations you propose are a formula that could only work for people who have enormous amounts of time to waste arguing with each other. I appears that by your rules who ever spends the most time arguing "wins." Whoever is most skillful at vailing the initial insults or trolls also wins. Many of us came here to get away from those kinds of things. Bill Beaty has done a great job of moderating and it is much appreciated. If there are problems then one way to fix them is to extend the rules, but there are limits to that approach. Everyone applying common sense and observing the spirit of the existing rules is the best approach, if it can be made to work. People who follow only their own rules and principles are going to be a problem for other people, and either require more action from a moderator or more rules or both. I am not saying that constructive criticism is not important, but it really doesn't do much good to insistantly repeat it or try to hash it out when the experimenter or theorist does not want to accept it as valid or spend the time to deal with it. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong. After a short time, no one wants to hear it anyway. Moderation in all things is a virtue. 8^) At 9:36 PM 1/3/1, Scott Little wrote: >I want to see >this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY >scientific topics. > >Anybody with me? I'm with you and will attempt to be quiet for a while to see if it happens. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:38:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26946; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:35:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:35:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:43:31 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Rpt: Water Transformer Resent-Message-ID: <"SC3F02.0.ta6.CHBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:11 PM 1/4/1, xplorer wrote: >After catching up on what Horace Heffner has > reported about using coils of salted water > as part of a transformer, I have revisited > my experiment. > >Still lacking a freq generator, > I am still concerned with DC and low-freq > characteristics of water as part of a > transformer. > >I just finished another test-run, > and I detected a small deflection > of a magnet inside a 2-turn water coil > powered by DC. >Miniscule, but there it is. > >The test went as follows: > >60 cm of plastic aquarium tubing, 5.6mm OD, 4mm ID. >tap water at 28 C: 500 g mixed with 50 g NaCl > >389vac 50 Hz rectified to DC > >initial current: 50 mA > >The magnet, Nd discdrive magnet, is 16 g >Due to the unusual pole geometry of the magnet, > I could only place the faces parallel > with the plane of the coil, > and the resulting deflection was approx 0.2 mm >The deflection seemed to fade with time, > which I want to investigate further. > >I did notice significant joule heating in the tubing, > approx 2 degrees C over 60 seconds. >This was measured by digital thermometer laying > against the tubing, approx 30 cm from either electrode. >As the coupling was loose, I will check this again. >I suspect that the heat loss through the tubing > keeps the temp from being higher. >There was no flow of the water in this experiment - > simply a steel electrode connected at each end > of the tubing. > >cheers Once again, you have used no control coil in order to compare the effects of the 50 mA in a water coil to a similar copper coil. The easiest way to get a control is to make a simmilarly shaped coil, but of copper, and put it in series with the water coil. This takes almost no effort. PLEASE try to design a control into your experiments. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:48:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29326; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:40:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:40:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010104121427.00c1e6b0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:40:50 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0 earthtech.org> References: <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0 ihug.co.nz> <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"G9iUf2.0._97.dMBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >I think you are correct here. Conservation of Energy (I believe) is one of >those laws like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which was initially >proposed, then shown over the ages to work in every case ever analyzed, >and NEVER found to be in error...but it cannot be PROVED to be true. I think so. I can't remember the word, but there is a name for laws based solely on repeated observation as opposed to laws with theoretical underpinning. C of E cannot be proved true today, but that may change as theories evolve. A strict empiricist would say that all laws are based on repeated observations, and theory is window-dressing brought in later to make to make laws look respectable. Physicists do not like empiricism, but people in other branches of science such as epidemiology are happy with it. In biology, laws are not as strict as physics. They are trends; they apply most of the time, but you often see exceptions. In physics a replicated observation of an exception supposedly invalidates the law. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 09:55:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29961; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:43:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3A54A862.942339E8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:44:34 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819@ix.netcom.com> <3A525239.5DF40E0D@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fYB731.0.3K7.gOBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 02 Jan 2001 16:12:43 -0600: > [snip] > >> ...and Heaven forbid that you should get some Ag+ in your solution!...you > >> might actually get some excess heat! ;) > > > >This is an interesting response. Have you actually gotten excess when Ag plated > >onto the cathode? My experience has been that such a coating reduces the > >loading of palladium. I have no idea what it would do to nickel. > > > >Ed Storms > [snip] > Not personally, though I know of successful CF with pure silver. Can you give me the reference or any more information? The only excess energy I know of was when silver was plated with Pd. > There is > also a report of drastically increased H2 and O2 production with silver > plated copper wire electrodes. Do you mean drastically increased H2 and O2 over that expected based on the amount of current? Because this would violate Faraday's law, an additional chemical reaction would have to be involved. > > Furthermore Ag can be a Mills catalyst according to: > > Ag+ + Ag++ -> Ag + Ag+++ -27.254 eV > H - 27.2 eV -> Hy + 13.6 eV > and if the resultant Hydrino reacts with the Ag+++ in a fusion reaction, > then you get: > > Hy + Ag107 -> Pd104 + He4 + 5.8 MeV or > Hy + Ag109 -> Pd106 + He4 + 6.3 MeV > > With luck the energetic alphas will ionise enough Ag+ into Ag++ to keep the > process going, and you turn cheap silver into nice expensive palladium :). > BTW higher level hydrino shrinkage reactions should produce UV photons that > are also energetic enough to ionise Ag+ to Ag++. An interesting idea that would be easy to test. Why do you think an alpha would result rather than formation of Ag108 or Pd107 from Ag107, with subsequent beta emission? What would be the half-life of such a reaction? Ed > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:14:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01656; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:54:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:54:07 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> References: Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:52:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? Resent-Message-ID: <"IKRVS.0.oP.-YBLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 06:55 PM 1/3/2001 -0800, William Beaty wrote: > >>But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining >>directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get >>the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the >>"neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all >>complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues >>warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than >>delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and >>anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their >>own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside >>criticism. > >Good description of recent events on Vortex. > >>Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" > >I strongly encourage such a ban...and additional bans if they become >necessary to preserve the original, very useful function of Vortex-L. ***{Based on the usage thus far, "taking insult" would include posting a reasoned rebuttal to an attack on one's character. As such, it is ludicrous. The focus of any ban, *obviously*, ought to be on the person who cast the character related aspersions in the first place. However, in the present case that person was the "moderator," Bill Beaty, who would therefore be placed in the uncomfortable position of enforcing a ban on himself. Result: he prefers to ban reasoned responses to such attacks, rather than the attacks themselves. As for the notion that flame wars arise out of the "tit-for-tat" principle, that is also ludicrous. Flame wars are not exchanges of reasoned comments. They are exchanges of juvenile and pointless insults, and require massive character flaws on the parts of those who engage in them. The best way to discourage flaming is to encourage calm and reasoned analysis of those character flaws. In open groups, flamers find themselves unable to cope with such analysis, and either lapse into silence or else spew forth such a flood of vile nonsense that they lose all credibility, and are ignored. People simply cease to read their screeds, either with or without the assistance of killfiles. The problem with responding to flamers by posting reasoned analysis of their character flaws, however, is this: you have to develop the ability to recognize character flaws, and to speak reasonably about them. That is a difficult and time consuming process, and many people prefer to entrust the task to a "moderator" instead. Unfortunately, that approach contains an obvious flaw--to wit: who is to "moderate" the "moderator"--e.g., what is to be done when the "moderator" takes it upon himself to introduce character-related aspersions into a discussion and to prohibit "taking insult" by posting reasoned responses to those aspersions? --Mitchell Jones}*** >If you freedom lovers want some place to argue politics or debate the human >condition, PLEASE go somewhere else besides Vortex-L! ***{The lovers of fascism, socialism, pragmatism, etc., are of course welcome to stay, and to put forth their views with impunity, as they do routinely here, with not a peep of objection from you. --MJ}*** This list has >functioned for years as a forum for meaningful scientific investigation ***{Indeed it has, and that has occurred *despite* the massive and ongoing posting of political commentary and analysis by assorted fascists, socialists, pragmatists, libertarians, etc. that has accompanied it. This occurred because most people here have for the most part simply skipped over material that they deemed to be uninteresting. Some, myself included, have had recourse to the filtering of unwanted posts into killfiles on occasion. Result: things functioned fairly smoothly, and the science got discussed along with everything else, with no disruptive flame wars or calls for the ejection of anyone from the group. Such smooth functioning, however, did not mean intolerance did not lurk just beneath the surface, or that nobody here wanted to muzzle others and prevent their views from being expressed. To the contrary: all it meant was that Bill Beaty had, up to that time, given no indication that he would put up with such behavior. Now, however, that has changed, with predictable results: the evil that had lurked just beneath the surface, in the minds of some of the people here, has now oozed forth, with disruptive effects. --MJ}*** >and, as far as I'm concerned, it is in grave danger of collapsing under the >weight of democracy. Ideally (for me), this list should conduct itself >much like an extended Q&A session at a scientific conference. ***{Then simply killfile everyone who doesn't conform to your ideal, Scott! If you do that, then, to you, the group appears to be what you want it to be. It's simple! --MJ}*** There, >everyone usually goes out of their way to be polite when asking >questions. Everyone tries to make their questions as meaningful and >important as possible. Nobody in his right mind would dream of standing up >and droning on endlessly about the essence of human evil. ***{Nobody did that, Scott. But if you object to the small amount of comment that has taken place recently on that subject, why not simply killfile the supposed offender--i.e., me--and wash your hands of the affair? Why do you call, instead, for my expulsion from the group? Could it be that your real purpose is to prevent others from reading my comments, rather than to merely avoid reading them yourself? In pursuit of the latter possibility, and at the risk of "droning on endlessly about the essence of human evil," the following quote seems relevant here: "...the social reasoner is a person who chose to surrender the creation of his personality to the thoughts, values, and judgments of others. Over a period of many years, he repeatedly chose to adopt beliefs and personality traits that he sensed were wrong, because he perceived them to be socially expedient. His fatal error lay in his failure to realize that each such act drained off a tiny portion of his self respect until, in the end, nothing remained but a feeling of self-loathing. Thus if he finally achieved the material success which he had sought, he discovered that he could not enjoy it. He discovered, instead, that he was miserable and unhappy." "While he does not understand, intellectually, what has happened to him, he nevertheless feels its emotional effects. He feels dead inside, and he feels an overpowering fear and hatred, welling up from deep within himself, whenever he encounters people who, psychologically, are alive. People who are self-assertive, people who reason and form their own opinions, people who argue, people who don't seem to care whether they fit in--he hates them all." "In other times and places, men like him, acting on feelings like his, had filled the world with bloodshed and slaughter. They did not merely hate people who were psychologically alive: they killed them. They stretched them on the rack; they burned out their eyes with red hot irons; they stripped the flesh from their still living bodies... "The point is simple: the social reasoner feels a deep seated emotional need to see self-assertiveness beaten down. He hates those who had the courage to use their own minds and rely on their own judgments, and he wants to see them miserable and unhappy. Such experiences seem to justify the ease with which he allowed the castles of his own soul to be overrun. Every time he sees such persons beaten down, his inner pain is eased. Such sights suggest that, in truth, there was no other way, that his lifelong policy of surrender and self-destruction was correct, that his own inner misery is, in fact, unavoidable." [*The Dogs of Capitalism*, pg. 296] In my view the above quote, published more than 12 years ago, says all that needs to be said about the cause of the present "crisis" in this group. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see >this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY >scientific topics. > >Anybody with me? ***{Your killfile is with you, Scott. Why not use it to make the group appear to be what you want it to be? Or is your unwillingness to do so, perhaps, due to the presence of emotions such as those described in the quote, above? --MJ}*** >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Inc. >4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 >Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 >512-346-3017 (FAX) >http://www.earthtech.org ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:44:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18955; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:33:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:33:30 -0800 From: erev4 yahoo.com Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:35:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Reproducibile CF papers X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer (pbm 1.17b) Message-Id: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"hMUP_3.0.-d4.v7CLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. Some internet links I emailed (including the Economist's reference to a second aether theory, and JR's meeting summaries on Vortex) were given to an AP reporter who 'reports on physics'. No guessing please. Let him choose his pace or nouveau rejection. He 'scoffed, read intently, and expressed surprise at all the activity'. Now I think physics is in an 'until death do us part' period which cannot be changed by reporters or reliable CF experiments, but still I will mail a half dozen recent * reliable experiments * - kick it up a notch - papers (no guarantee that they will be passed along or read), if I can find them in a library or someone mails me a copy. I have one Mizuno, many Infinite Energies, would like Iwamura, do not have access to Fusion Technology, and will visit the library next week. Suggestions welcome. I'll put an email summary by/about SL on top if he gets the pulse to work anywhere. That's the PdCF electrolytic reliability experiment. Either that succeeds or the electrolyte experiment is dead, except for solution additions, e.g., noble gases, and modifications e.g., Iwamura, Mizuno). If you need the snail address, send an email. Thanks. John Neergaard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:45:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA18891; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:33:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:33:22 -0800 From: erev4 yahoo.com Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:34:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer (pbm 1.17b) Message-Id: <200101041226290.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"4a2h-2.0.5d4.n7CLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: >> Alternatively, as positive proof that convective flow is a cause, I suppose >> you could vigorously stir one sample of water at 20 deg C, and leave >> another quiet for a long time, then compare the two. William J. Beaty responded >That's even better! (Stir vigorously but without introducing tiny bubbles.) >> Horace Heffner's hypothesis is similar to others I have seen. Another set Horace was being facetious, albeit serious. He hadn't yet finished proving that his eddies would persist such that they would be greater at the same temperature (trailing in time). He also didn't mention how the eddies were originally caused (bad experimental procedure no doubt - Ceretis paribus). >> of ideas relates the Mpemba effect to supercooling. I don't follow that >> discussion, but I think some people suggest that the "frozen" >> formerly-hot-water is not really frozen, but in some intermediate state. >If for some reason there were many tiny pockets of liquid in the "formerly >hot" ice, but lacking in the other ice, then the "formerly hot" ice might >APPEAR to freeze first, yet act more like rigid slush than like a solid >crystal. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website You guys just popped my cork. The Mitchell Jones sequence began over the realness of polywater. MJ used theory and logic to (my words) exclude the conclusions based on ceretis paribus (all things being equal). JR said (my paraphrase) MJ was older than ES, theory is stupid, logic is inane and experiments rule. Now the two of you are saying 'theory logic' is good and can present ways to investigate ceretis paribus re Mpemba. I vote for MJ. Applying 'theory logic' to polywater, there is no way H2O normal bonds can stably form polywater. Therefore pure polywater water does not exist. Therefore, investigate ceretis paribus. And don't post it until you have. Then you'll deserve safe harbor. If you want to make some polywater I suggest you check with Mills about how the K+2, which dips into the closed lower shell, forms a different bond with H than does K+. That will link. Do you suppose O-7 will link too? To complete the rejection, ZPE, per se, has no connecting proof to reality; it's just a hypothetical acausal god with creation powers. (Some experiments with completely hopeless explanations can actually be real.) John Neergaard From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:50:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA21403; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:38:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:38:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3A54B556.CA2C7AD8 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 11:39:55 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Americium fission reactor - article References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010103141453.0366b500 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aKLBh2.0.EE5.pCCLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This idea is similar to proposing that a cold fusion reactor could speed us to Mars someday and is just as far from reality. The only difference being that the proposed idea is based on conventional physics, hence is given undeserved credibility. The basic problem when using fission fragments for direct propulsion is that less than 1/2 of them go in the direction required to move the space craft. The remainder just heat the fuel. Second, because their range is very short, the fuel must be very thin. Local heating and radiation damage will quickly vaporize this thin film into space, thereby causing the space craft to lose its energy source. On the other hand, if the americium is used in a conventional reactor to make heat or electric power, the same limitations experienced by present reactors will apply - the only advantage being the lower weight. Even this advantage will not be very great because the americium will have to be diluted by inert material to provide physical stability, neutron moderation, and thermal contact with the energy conversion system. Meanwhile, the great cost of americium would make this method very impractical. Many clever ideas have been proposed to get man to Mars quickly - this is just not one of them. Indeed, we had a suitable nuclear rocket engine called Rover 40 years ago, until Nixon canceled the program so that he could use the money to bomb Vietnam. This is just one of many opportunities we, as a people, have lost because we elect officials having a very limited view of reality, a process refined to an extreme in the present election. Ed Storms Jed Rothwell wrote: > Ah, here is a short article about this: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/01/010103073253.htm > > "Extremely Efficient Nuclear Fuel Could Take Man To Mars In Just Two Weeks" > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 10:57:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA26035; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:50:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:50:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:48:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Vortex B Resent-Message-ID: <"kxzq72.0.jM6.YNCLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There are far, far more messages being posted on the subject of group rules, disruptive behavior, etc., than I can ever reply to individually, given the limited time available to me at present. Regarding the suggestion of several people that all discussions other than specific lab science ought to be moved to vortex B, my response is simple: that was tried, and it didn't work. The reason it didn't work was that Jed Rothwell and others continued to post material to vortex-l that related to politics, historical analysis, character-related criticisms of various researchers, etc. Thus I found myself constantly drawn into such threads, and, naturally, my unorthodox analytical framework was applied in my messages. Result: those who want to believe that the government can solve social problems by violating property rights and who accept the moral, psychological, philosophical, and historical worldviews which that requires, found themselves faced with an unorthodox yet carefully reasoned perspective, and were unhappy. To make vortex-B viable, therefore, here is my suggestion: Bill should *really* ban everything from vortex-l other than lab results and the analysis of lab results. That means when Jed starts to talk about environmentalism, or the Wright brothers, or to defame researchers he doesn't like (Ken Shoulders, Joseph Newman, Randell Mills, etc.), he should be diverted directly over to vortex-b. And likewise for others. There is simply no way to keep debates that do not relate to lab science off of vortex-l, unless *all* non-lab material is removed. Tolerating the non-lab-related ventings of Bill Beaty's friends or of persons with whom Bill Beaty agrees won't work, because non-friends and persons with whom Bill Beaty disagrees consider their views to be just as legitimate, or more legitimate, than the views of those whose transgressions are ignored. Anyway, I've said all I care to say about this silliness for awhile. I have other fish to fry, and so I will not be checking out this group again for several days. I suggest that those who object to me personally should take advantage of this opportunity, work themselves into a froth, and see if they can cobble together rationalizations that are sufficient to get me booted off of the list. Have fun! :-) --Mitchell Jones ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 11:06:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA28741; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:56:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:56:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:04:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Resent-Message-ID: <"f_L0h1.0._07.7TCLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:36 AM 1/4/1, John Berry wrote: >The point I'm making is that a longer flux conductor does not much change >the density of >compression of the magnetic field, it changes the length at that density, >and that length >has nothing or very little to do with attraction (I believe) I haven't carefully follwed all your conversation, due to lack of time, and the due to the way your conversation is all kind of all over the place. I supect you have at least one fallicy involved in your thinking that is rooted in the idea that a "flux conductor" is even possible. If you use that concept then you have to make corresponding changes in the exisating physical laws that you have not made. In other words, when you apply that concept as a physical law, as opposed to using it as an engineering approximation, things go way wrong in your ability to predict. High mu matrials don't actually "conduct" flux within the standard physics concepts, which includes the notion of superposition. If you put a coil of wire around a high mu bar, it appears that magnetic flux is induced along the length of the bar by H of the coil. This is not a correct interpretation using standard (superposition) theory. The H field of the coil is not changed at all by the imposition of the bar into the coil. That field is superpositioned with the M induced in the portions of the bar coincident with the field, i.e. very close to the coil, and in a manner proportional to the H field. The M induced in the bar near the coil then propigates a net B = M + H down the bar by inducing M in each subsequent section of the bar. Each segment of the bar is a magnet having flux leave the bar at its local North and return and return at its local South. The net apparent flow of flux down the bar is due to superpostion. However, the apparent propigation of the flux is NOT conservative of flux flow along any length of the bar, because flux lines leak out of the bar into the space around the bar, unlike the way electrons do not significantly leak out of wires. The flux carried in the bar diminishes with the length of the bar, in proportion to the the length of the bar, due to (net) leakage into the space around the bar. The reluctance of the bar (the magnetic equivalence of resistance) is proportional to the length of the bar. If you insert a high mu material in a closed loop bar, i.e. a core, you lengthen the bar and reduce the flux in the core induced by a given number of amp turns. The number of amp-turns is the magnetomotive force, or mmf of the magnetic "circuit," and thus is analagous to voltage. However, this concept is really not appropriate, and falls apart as the length of a core increases, because more and more of the field must be carried in the space around the core, as opposed to through it, unlike the way electron flow is maintained within a wire. The disparity is easier to see when the core is opened up into a straight bar and ALL the flux returns through space outside the bar - provided you can see that most of it returns through the sides out the bar, not through the end of the bar. Following are some derivations I posted in another thread, but are very relevant. If we start with the inductance L of a solenoid having large major diameter R compared to minor diamter r, being identical or very close to a long solenoid, a fact well well known on both a theoretical and experimental basis, then we have L = (u0 N^2 A)/d where A is area oc cross section, Pi r^2 d is distance around major circumference, 2 Pi R and knowing that: L = (N phi)/I we have for both the long solenoid and the high R/r torus: phi = L*I/N = (u0 N A I)/d = (u0 A I) (N/d) It is the term N/d that is significant to this discussion. Phi is inversely proportional to d. The core doesn't actually "conduct" the phi. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 11:20:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05292; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 11:15:21 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:23:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"j5erj2.0.SI1.8lCLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:34 PM 1/4/1, erev4 yahoo.com wrote: [snip] > Horace was being facetious, albeit serious. He hadn't yet finished proving >that his eddies would persist such that they would be greater at the same >temperature (trailing in time). He also didn't mention how the eddies were >originally caused (bad experimental procedure no doubt - Ceretis paribus). [snip] > John Neergaard Actually have been quite serious all the way back to 12/9/00 when I wrote: "A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into the freezer. Therefore, the eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so the water with the most initial eddy currents is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples are not the same system when at the same temperature." I think I was 100 percent dead right, but maybe I didn't use enough words to make the concepts clear. Convection eddy currents are initiated SPONTANEOUSLY when there is a thermal gradient applied to a liquid. A thermal gradient converts some of the heat energy into the kinetic energy associted with the eddy currents. The eddy currents are therefore NOT induced by experimental error, but are necessitated by the mere fact that a thermal gradient must be induced in the water sample to cool it. To cool a sample the boundary musty be made cooler than the interior, and thus a thermal gradient is NECESSARILY formed by ANY experimental proceedure that cools the water. I don't think there should be any doubt that Mpemba might be correct, but experiment tells the tale. Regards, Horace Heffner From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:26:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08160 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:26:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:26:52 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [64.19.14.115] From: "Adam Cox" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 14:26:19 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jan 2001 20:26:19.0676 (UTC) FILETIME=[98C28DC0:01C0768C] Resent-Message-ID: <"goeca.0.P_1.CoDLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: John said : I know that the attraction takes place because of the compression of the magnets field, the point is that second piece compresses the magnetic field at the end of the steel not the magnet. Actually, in a coil it can be proven that all atraction and repulsion are the result of the force on the moving electrons themselves, as the fields do not actually interact but instead are superimposed atop each other. I don't know how well this holds for a solid magnet, as I can't visualize the precise motion inside which is creating the field. Merlyn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:34:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA11571 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:34:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:34:14 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010104152459.00c29e78 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:34:06 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers In-Reply-To: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PDywn3.0.mq2.6vDLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. There is very little serious CF literature on line, unfortunately. Most of it is in places like the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry. What do you mean by "reproducible"? People use this to mean: 1. Experiments that the author claims he can repeat. 2. Experiments that other experts say they have replicated. 3. Experiments that anyone can reproduce. Palladium heavy water CF falls in category 2. There is nothing in category 3. > Some internet links I emailed . . . We have miscellaneous links at: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/links.html For pure CF only, see: http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html For recent work in Japan, see: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:39:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA14267 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:39:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:39:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:41:36 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: William Beaty Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010103212145.0215fa18 earthtech.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GLpsV.0.uU3.V-DLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: A Scott I agree, but would like to allow a few short of toppic messages at times. Many are interesting, such as Jed's and Horace's. Hank On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote: > At 06:55 PM 1/3/2001 -0800, William Beaty wrote: > > >But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining > >directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get > >the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the > >"neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all > >complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues > >warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than > >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and > >anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their > >own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside > >criticism. > > Good description of recent events on Vortex. > > >Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" > > I strongly encourage such a ban...and additional bans if they become > necessary to preserve the original, very useful function of Vortex-L. > > If you freedom lovers want some place to argue politics or debate the human > condition, PLEASE go somewhere else besides Vortex-L! This list has > functioned for years as a forum for meaningful scientific investigation > and, as far as I'm concerned, it is in grave danger of collapsing under the > weight of democracy. Ideally (for me), this list should conduct itself > much like an extended Q&A session at a scientific conference. There, > everyone usually goes out of their way to be polite when asking > questions. Everyone tries to make their questions as meaningful and > important as possible. Nobody in his right mind would dream of standing up > and droning on endlessly about the essence of human evil. > > Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see > this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of ONLY > scientific topics. > > Anybody with me? > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org > > From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 12:59:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA26138 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:59:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:59:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 12:58:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: forbid political discussions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yBOF7.0.LO6.NGELw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > Scott > I agree, but would like to allow a few short of toppic messages at > times. Many are interesting, such as Jed's and Horace's. "off topic"? How about this: DISCUSSING POLITICS IS FORBIDDEN. However, single messages which directly involve the politics of unorthodox science are tolerated. Vortex-L subscribers must not reply to such messages. If people want to discuss any sort of politics, they should go elsewhere. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 13:43:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13656 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 13:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: <001c01c07698$329bc5f0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010103165418.03f8f650@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:49:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"RXtZx3.0.GL3.0wELw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >The only time two things are ATTRACTED is when their movement > together LOWERS the total system energy...right? > This rule does not appear to work in an obvious way for either magnets or polarizable materials. Perhaps with the correct formulation that included the internal energy of the materials it would make more sense. Magnetic dipoles appear to source energy if a field of the same ploarity is externally applied. Naturally, this is what is happening when the internal dipoles align as a soft magnetic material is magnetized. There appears to be no way to keep this energy sourced by magnets under easily testable conditions, I have looked at many specific cases both theoretically and experimentally. There is some theoretical possibility of keeping some of this energy with special materials and under extreme conditions of high frequency and high fields, but current technology may not be sufficient. Perhaps the VTA/SQM provides the proper conditions through new physics. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 14:48:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA11846 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:48:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:48:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3A54EFC9.87F5CA7E ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 15:48:57 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers References: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7K61S1.0.3v2.dsFLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Check out http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html for some of my papers. Ed Storms erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > Hi, > > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. > > Some internet links I emailed (including the Economist's reference to a > second aether theory, and JR's meeting summaries on Vortex) were given to an AP > reporter who 'reports on physics'. No guessing please. Let him choose his pace > or nouveau rejection. He 'scoffed, read intently, and expressed surprise at all > the activity'. > > Now I think physics is in an 'until death do us part' period which cannot > be changed by reporters or reliable CF experiments, but still I will mail a > half dozen recent * reliable experiments * - kick it up a notch - papers (no > guarantee that they will be passed along or read), if I can find them in a > library or someone mails me a copy. I have one Mizuno, many Infinite Energies, > would like Iwamura, do not have access to Fusion Technology, and will visit the > library next week. Suggestions welcome. > > I'll put an email summary by/about SL on top if he gets the pulse to work > anywhere. That's the PdCF > electrolytic reliability experiment. Either that succeeds or the electrolyte > experiment is dead, except for solution additions, e.g., noble gases, and > modifications e.g., Iwamura, Mizuno). > > If you need the snail address, send an email. Thanks. > > John Neergaard > From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 14:55:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15121 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:55:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:55:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-153.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.153] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A549055.766554FD ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 04:01:45 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uA4t13.0.Ci3.pzFLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 06:49 PM 1/4/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > >Still I wish you had replied to my last post before I got started on a new > >subject, there > >is no good in posting something, getting a reply that misses the point and > >then moving on > >to the nest subject. > > Sorry, I agree. Maybe we'll go back to that if it seems warranted. By the > same token, you shouldn't put "teasers" at the end of your message like you > did....:) > > > >Lets say we have two coils at a distance, one is already energized and > >it's field has > >permeated local space. Now lets turn the second coil on in a repulsive > >orientation to the > >first. The second coil experiences a propulsive force, but the first coil > >doesn't because > >the field from the second takes time to get to it. Just before the field > >from the second > >reaches the first the first turns off. > >The first coil has experienced no force while the second has, furthermore > >the news that > >the first coils magnetic field is collapsing takes more time so the second > >coil is still > >being thrust. > > This scenario DOES obey Newton's Laws perfectly provided you include in > your considerations, the momentum stored in the propagating electromagnetic > fields. The momentum imparted to the 2nd coil immediately following its > energization is balanced by field momentum moving off towards the 1st coil. > > Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is > violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore > the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, > Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and > p. 27-11) > Ok, sure. But many people still act that the only way to go in one direction is to throw matter in the other. If it is really recognized that you do not need to throw mass in the opposite direction for propulsion then why do so many in conventional physics say the only way to propel a space craft is by ejection of mass and not field propulsion. Still you are right, everyone does recognize radiation pressure, which is however too weak to be of use really. I would still like to hear your thought on how fast a magnetic field would transmit in that light slowing medium. Still there is another interesting difference between a torch and the above example, the light from a "light rocket" carries momentum in the other direction that can be reapplied to mass. However the magnetic fields in the above have no obvious way to turn back into physical momentum. Further more I am having a hard time seeing how the momentum in the magnetic fields is in any particular direction, how would you know the difference if the momentum in the fields was going in the same direction? In short after you stretch the law enough to fit the above it loses all meaning really, it says something like this. "For every action there was a causative action, and those two actions might be opposite but then again maybe not. And this is untrue in quantum physics where an electron can move without any reason." > > >Now on to energy, I am amazed how many in the Free Energy and Alt. Sci. > >community believe > >it is foolish to think that creation of energy might be possible. > >It's not illogical as most seem to think. > >Can someone give me a single reason other than the stupid "No free lunch" > >philosophy? > >You can't prove a negative, You can't prove that it is impossible to > >create energy... > > I think you are correct here. Conservation of Energy (I believe) is one of > those laws like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which was initially proposed, > then shown over the ages to work in every case ever analyzed, and NEVER > found to be in error...but it cannot be PROVED to be true. I disagree, you just ignored all the people who claim to have experimentally shown it to be in error. You know very well people have found it to be in error, however you are totally unwilling to consider the validity of their findings with a statement like that. > > > >Quantum physics shows it is possible for energy to be created and destroyed... > > AFAIK, that is incorrect. Conservation of Energy is fully integrated into > and compatible with quantum physics. I disagree, Quantum mechanics demands that random minute fluctuations in energy exist. An uncertainty of energy. However this is only a moral victory, Still there seems to be an important point. > > > >Here's an illustration, take a long vertical pipe and have water flow down > >it, suddenly > >stop any water or air from entering the top. Water will continue to leave > >the end of the > >pipe till the shock wave hits, the water that left the pipe after it was > >capped was not > >because of the waters inertia or kinetic energy but because of the delay > >in reaction. This > >is called the water hammer effect and creates a vacuum in the pipe. > > > >I have head a claim of the above being OU. > > > >The reverse idea of having the bottom of the pipe capped is a good idea > >because the energy > >in just a slight compression of water is very great. > > > >So we have water flowing down our long pipe, suddenly the bottom is > >capped. However the > >water at the top of the pipe doesn't have a clue, not yet anyway, it is > >still pouring into > >the pipe. The energy in the compression of the water is not from the > >kinetic energy but > >because of the delay, yet again the energy in the end is more and has no > >relation to the > >energy in. > > This is good analogy of inductance in an electrical circuit. Yes, energy > is stored in the movement of the water but this system surely does not > create energy anywhere. I disagree, Inductance is because of electromagnetic momentum. There is an electrical analogy of this as well, and it's that even in a case where there is no inductance due to doubling the wire back on it's self, if you suddenly break the circuit at the most distant point from the battery, the battery will for the time it takes a signal at the speed of light to travel down the wires to the battery act as though nothing has changed. You will find the wire can be charged to a voltage greater than the battery ever could. I know your a bright boy, you must be able to understand it, it's very simple. But of course humans can be very stupid when they want to be. > > > >Conventional physicists believe the following: > >Nothing is faster than light, black holes exist and slow time to a > >absolute stop, gravity > >can't be shielded. > >Now from the above we also know that gravity travels no faster than the > >speed of light, > >but wait time stops in a black hole? > >Yes those 3 things above are self contradictory because if gravity travels > >at the speed of > >light, and time stops in a black hole then the gravity from a mass on one > >side of a black > >hole would never get through the black hole. And what about the gravity of > >the black hole, > >how does it get out? > > Gravity doesn't have to "get out" of a black hole. A gravitational FIELD > is not radiation. The field is a static condition in space that is created > as the black hole is being assembled. Or, so lets say your right, now move a large mass from infinity to near a black hole. How do you make sense of that? > Once the mass "goes black", its > gravitation field still persists throughout space. > > >My point here is clear, Just because lots of people with Ph.D. in front of > >their name > >believe something and call it a "Law" of physics doesn't mean that the > >universe agrees. > > Obviously...but you seem to be grossly underestimating just how hard those > people with letters after their names have tried to understand exactly how > the universe works. They might be trying hard, but dishonestly. They don't even realize it, and they will fight to defend their "Laws" when they should be trying the hardest to tear them down. They have made themselves blind by refusing to consider evidence to the contrary. > By no means am I claiming that physicists understand > everything about the universe. On the contrary, there are vast unexplored > frontiers left. However, the phenomenological behavior of magnets, coils, > fields, moving columns of water, etc. is VERY WELL understood. No, it is assumed simple, so no one looks. you have not given the water idea any consideration, if you did you would show me why it's not true, instead you chose to ignore it and write it off as something it clearly isn't. Do you have the mathematical skills to turn it into an equation? If so then try it then talk to me about it. I have already shown that momentum plays only a small part, but you totally ignored it and claimed it as the reason. I have no interest in talking with someone who is not going to consider or properly examine something they either don't believe is possible or is scared might be. > Otherwise , > how could scientists/engineers design stuff like microprocessors, space > shuttles, cell phones, automobiles, etc. They are brilliant, and very clever, and deceitful without knowing it. They have part of the picture, but are closing their eyes to the rest. > We left the days of trial and > error engineering long ago. Nowadays, engineers CALCULATE how a device is > going to behave BEFORE it is built That is arrogance, it assumes they know everything, which is the problem. What if they "Calculate" that FE isn't possible, well they will trust their calculations and not attempt. What if the calculations show a violation, well they ignore the calculations. Calculations and mathematics are not science. They do not lead to understanding only projection. I know I'll get told off for saying that but it's true. They are very useful and often work, but as they don't go with sufficient understanding they can also be wrong or incomplete. > and use those calculations to refine the > design until the predicted performance is exactly as desired. Then, when > the device is actually constructed, it DOES perform that way. Everyone becomes overconfident because they start to feel like they know everything. Don't try and pretend there aren't anomalies. > Those > calculations are based upon the standard laws of physics and therefore > those laws are proved over and over again every time something new is > designed, built, and tested. If there were "big holes" in the laws of > physics as you propose above, believe me, engineers would know about it! As those "Big Holes" are found they are ignored. The problem goes like this. You know a lot, and you assume that you can project everything, based on the assumption "If I don't already know about it, it probably doesn't exist". When a violation is found it is ignored because it must be an error. You learn to play it safe, you stop playing in areas where your precious laws and calculations fall down. I know the secret to free energy and antigravity, I know no one will believe me when I say that but there is one fact about the two and most other "impossibles" that you should know. With the possible exception of those I have already mentioned and maybe a few other, the same thing is responsible for Free Energy and Antigravity, they will often turn up together with other anomalies. There are ways to create this "condition" but when it is not present you have little chance of finding most of the Big Holes in physics. And there are few conventional things that create this condition to any great extent. There are however still plenty of things that don't match the "calculations" which you ignore, but they appear to be only small holes. You are trying to say that if the big holes were there you would know, but you wouldn't because you never go anywhere near the big holes, and with your powerful and willful disbelief you can pretend they aren't there even when you do get to near to one. John Berry > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 15:29:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29795 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:29:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:29:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-153.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.153] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A549848.4DA7455A ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 04:35:42 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BB_3G1.0.WH7.hTGLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 4:36 AM 1/4/1, John Berry wrote: > > >The point I'm making is that a longer flux conductor does not much change > >the density of > >compression of the magnetic field, it changes the length at that density, > >and that length > >has nothing or very little to do with attraction (I believe) > > I haven't carefully follwed all your conversation, due to lack of time, and > the due to the way your conversation is all kind of all over the place. > > I supect you have at least one fallicy involved in your thinking that is > rooted in the idea that a "flux conductor" is even possible. If you use > that concept then you have to make corresponding changes in the exisating > physical laws that you have not made. In other words, when you apply that > concept as a physical law, as opposed to using it as an engineering > approximation, things go way wrong in your ability to predict. High mu > matrials don't actually "conduct" flux within the standard physics > concepts, which includes the notion of superposition. > > If you put a coil of wire around a high mu bar, it appears that magnetic > flux is induced along the length of the bar by H of the coil. This is not > a correct interpretation using standard (superposition) theory. I have argued for superposition theory in the past, I guess it makes the most sense. I can't see how there is a difference in this case yet but I'll read on... > The H > field of the coil is not changed at all by the imposition of the bar into > the coil. That field is superpositioned with the M induced in the portions > of the bar coincident with the field, i.e. very close to the coil, and in a > manner proportional to the H field. The M induced in the bar near the coil > then propigates a net B = M + H down the bar by inducing M in each > subsequent section of the bar. Each segment of the bar is a magnet having > flux leave the bar at its local North and return and return at its local > South. The net apparent flow of flux down the bar is due to superpostion. > However, the apparent propigation of the flux is NOT conservative of flux > flow along any length of the bar, because flux lines leak out of the bar > into the space around the bar, unlike the way electrons do not > significantly leak out of wires. Agreed, but with a high permeability laminated steel, and below saturation, and perhaps a diamagnetic between the laminations and covering the whole conductor (If you will let me use that word for simplicity) I expect that a good percentage of the (non-superimposed) flux would not leak from the steel. An experiment I tried seemed to show that a great deal of flux does "conduct" down a steel rod. > The flux carried in the bar diminishes > with the length of the bar, in proportion to the the length of the bar, due > to (net) leakage into the space around the bar. The reluctance of the bar > (the magnetic equivalence of resistance) is proportional to the length of > the bar. If you insert a high mu material in a closed loop bar, i.e. a > core, you lengthen the bar and reduce the flux in the core induced by a > given number of amp turns. The number of amp-turns is the magnetomotive > force, or mmf of the magnetic "circuit," and thus is analagous to voltage. > However, this concept is really not appropriate, and falls apart as the > length of a core increases, because more and more of the field must be > carried in the space around the core, as opposed to through it, unlike the > way electron flow is maintained within a wire. The disparity is easier to > see when the core is opened up into a straight bar and ALL the flux returns > through space outside the bar - provided you can see that most of it > returns through the sides out the bar, not through the end of the bar. I agree, if too much of the flux goes astray then you are of course correct. > > > Following are some derivations I posted in another thread, but are very > relevant. > > If we start with the inductance L of a solenoid having large major diameter > R compared to minor diamter r, being identical or very close to a long > solenoid, a fact well well known on both a theoretical and experimental > basis, then we have > > L = (u0 N^2 A)/d > > where > > A is area oc cross section, Pi r^2 > d is distance around major circumference, 2 Pi R > > and knowing that: > > L = (N phi)/I > > we have for both the long solenoid and the high R/r torus: > > phi = L*I/N > > = (u0 N A I)/d > > = (u0 A I) (N/d) > > It is the term N/d that is significant to this discussion. Phi is > inversely proportional to d. The core doesn't actually "conduct" the phi. > Sorry, I am no good with math, I have no idea what that shows. I do believe that you could have enough flux conduct down the steel, though I can't say for sure Also when it comes down to it I can't say for sure that it matters, I mean obviously it would be harder to make it practical but I can't see how that changes the attraction force at the magnet, though it does make my argument less convincing. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 17:36:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18071 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:36:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 17:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Mitchell Jones Subject: Mitch taking time off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uu2AJ3.0.FQ4.RKILw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Anyway, I've said all I care to say about this silliness for awhile. I have > other fish to fry, and so I will not be checking out this group again for > several days. One last thing. Earlier I asked whether you'd read Feynman's paper about the ethics of scientists. That section is attached below. "In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another." Debate is about persuasion, and a debater who follows a philosophy of utterly honest Scientific Integrity is an incompetant fool who lets his enemies see all his weak points, and who helps them in their attack. But fortunately, Persuasion is not Science. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ...there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school--we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked--to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated. Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can--if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong--to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. There is also a more subtle problem. When you have put a lot of ideas together to make an elaborate theory, you want to make sure, when explaining what it fits, that those things it fits are not just the things that gave you the idea for the theory; but that the finished theory makes something else come out right, in addition. In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another. The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with advertising. Last night I heard that Wesson oil doesn't soak through food. Well, that's true. It's not dishonest; but the thing I'm talking about is not just a matter of not being dishonest; it's a matter of scientific integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oils soak through food, if operated at a certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they all will--including Wesson oil. So it's the implication which has been conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have to deal with. We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science. A great deal of their difficulty is, of course, the difficulty of the subject and the inapplicability of the scientific method to the subject. Nevertheless, it should be remarked that this is not the only difficulty. That's why the planes don't land--but they don't land. We have learned a lot from experience about how to handle some of the ways we fool ourselves. One example: Millikan measured the charge on an electron by an experiment with falling oil drops, and got an answer which we now know not to be quite right. It's a little bit off because he had the incorrect value for the viscosity of air. It's interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of an electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bit bigger than Millikan's, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher. Why didn't they discover the new number was higher right away? It's a thing that scientists are ashamed of--this history--because it's apparent that people did things like this: When they got a number that was too high above Millikan's, they thought something must be wrong--and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number close to Millikan's value they didn't look so hard. And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that. We've learned those tricks nowadays, and now we don't have that kind of a disease. But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves--of having utter scientific integrity--is, I'm sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of. We just hope you've caught on by osmosis The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that. I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen. For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of his work were. "Well," I said, "there aren't any." He said, "Yes, but then we won't get support for more research of this kind." I think that's kind of dishonest. If you're representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you're doing-- and if they don't support you under those circumstances, then that's their decision. One example of the principle is this: If you've made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish BOTH kinds of results. I say that's also important in giving certain types of government advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it would be better in some other state. If you don't publish such a result, it seems to me you're not giving scientific advice. You're being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don't publish at all. That's not giving scientific advice. Other kinds of errors are more characteristic of poor science. When I was at Cornell, I often talked to the people in the psychology department. One of the students told me she wanted to do an experiment that went something like this--it had been found by others that under certain circumstances, X, rats did something, A. She was curious as to whether, if she changed the circumstances to Y, they would still do A. So her proposal was to do the experiment under circumstances Y and see if they still did A. I explained to her that it was necessary first to repeat in her laboratory the experiment of the other person--to do it under condition X to see if she could also get result A, and then change to Y and see if A changed. Then she would know the the real difference was the thing she thought she had under control. She was very delighted with this new idea, and went to her professor. And his reply was, no, you cannot do that, because the experiment has already been done and you would be wasting time. This was in about 1947 or so, and it seems to have been the general policy then to not try to repeat psychological experiments, but only to change the conditions and see what happened. Nowadays, there's a certain danger of the same thing happening, even in the famous field of physics. I was shocked to hear of an experiment being done at the big accelerator at the National Accelerator Laboratory, where a person used deuterium. In order to compare his heavy hydrogen results to what might happen with light hydrogen, he had to use data from someone else's experiment on light hydrogen, which was done on different apparatus. When asked why, he said it was because he couldn't get time on the program (because there's so little time and it's such expensive apparatus) to do the experiment with light hydrogen on this apparatus because there wouldn't be any new result. And so the men in charge of programs at NAL are so anxious for new results, in order to get more money to keep the thing going for public relations purposes, they are destroying--possibly--the value of the experiments themselves, which is the whole purpose of the thing. It is often hard for the experimenters there to complete their work as their scientific integrity demands. All experiments in psychology are not of this type, however. For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on--with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before. The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell. He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell. Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers that clues that the rat is really using-- not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running. I looked up the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running the rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic example of cargo cult science. Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms--and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiements--they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the para-psychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated--that you can do again and get the same effect--statistically, even. They run a million rats--no, it's people this time--they do a lot of things are get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don't get it any more. And now you find a man saying that is is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science? This man also speaks about a new institution, in a talk in which he was resigning as Director of the Institute of Parapsychology. And, in telling people what to do next, he says that one of things they have to do is be sure the only train students who have shown their ability to get PSI results to an acceptable extent--not to waste their time on those ambitious and interested students who get only chance results. It is very dangerous to have such a policy in teaching--to teach students only how to get certain results, rather than how to do an experiment with scientific integrity. So I have just one wish for you--the good luck to be somewhere where you are free to maintain the kind of integrity I have described, and where you do not feel forced by a need to maintain your position in the organization, or financial support, or so on, to lose your integrity. May you have that freedom. -Richard Feynman http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 22:40:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24852 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:40:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:40:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 01:46:26 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: William Beaty cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"js07W2.0.G46.YnMLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: How about a SEPARATE LIST ... for "philosphical differences of opinion regarding matters of discussion of science" Then the people who wish to see a more experimentalism content can stay on Vo... and the persons wishing to discuss, above, can go there. I basically delete 99.99% of the above after one go round. Opinion is vital... but is not not the do all be all end all. On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, William Beaty wrote: > > The only time I've ever removed someone from a list is on FREENRG-L for > repeated direct violations of rule #2 (no insults.) All of my lists are > experiments, and Vortex-L does not have an anti-flamer rule. This was > intentional. I wanted to see how the "online community" would be > different if the "community" sets its own standards for behavior, rather > than having them entirely imposed by the moderator. > > After each of several past flamewars on vortex, I asked if people here > wouldn't prefer that this forum have a rule like the freenrg-L rule#2 (see > below). In the past, everyone here wanted the freedom instead, and > tolerated the occasional flamer to get it. This worked because being > temporarily banished to vortexB almost always caused the misbehaving > subscriber to either change their behavior or to leave the group. > > But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining > directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get > the message across. Rational people respond to complaints from the > "neighbors." And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all > complaints? Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues > warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than > delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and > anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their > own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside > criticism. > > Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" > (see FREENRG #2 below). > > There's a common alternative on listserves which has been mentioned > several times here: on a case by case basis, expel misbehaving members by > holding a vote. > > Mitch quoted 90% as the suggested majority needed to expel a subscriber. > That's EXTREMELY high, since it allows gross misbehavior to continue even > if 89.9% of subscribers feel strongly enough about the situation to want > the offender kicked out. In disciplinary actions taken against group > members in general, several members must "denounce" the offender in order > to initate the vote, 2/3 majority is typical, and the vote is performed as > a secret ballot to prevent acts of vengence. > > (FREENRG-L rule #2 is below) > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > > 2. Flamewars are banned. No namecalling or intentional insults on this > list. Use private email if you want to be nasty. To prevent spontaneous > flamewars, be ever aware of the psychology of email, since it is easy > to misinterpret a message, hear unintentional insults, and respond in > kind. If you respond in kind to a nonexistant insult, then *you* threw > the first punch. So, if you feel offended, first ask the author if a > particular statement is intended to be insulting. You might get an > explanation or apology. If you respond in kind to a genuine insult, > you lower yourself to their level, participate in a flamewar, and > jeapordize your subscription to the list. And if you give a cool- > headed response to an obvious attack, you make your attacker look > like a flamer. If you absolutely must respond to insults, do > it via private email, keep it OFF freenrg-L. > > From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Thu Jan 4 23:02:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA30926 for billb eskimo.com; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:02:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:02:58 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 02:08:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: MEG build and COP bigger than 10 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vA9Em1.0.BZ7.Y6NLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Hi guys, I've did it!!! COP for all! HAPPY NEW YEAR first! And I wish all the best! Free Energy for all! My name is Johnny AUM; I've constructed a MEG on ferite from 25 dec 2000 and I was making various tests with neon lamps of 6 watts each. The MEG and controller was constructed uppon JL Naudin (thanks to him a lot) scheme exactly. Only that, after a short period of time my 2 transistors, IRF 540 was broken and I was stooped for a while... I was sure from that day that the MEG is overunity, in special because what I saw and because I understand perfectly and I agree totaly with true theory of Tom Bearden (thanks a lot, Tom). I also had in the past similar thoughts and theories on how to extract from magnets EM energy.OK. So, tonight I replaced the 2 IRF 540 (100V) with 2 brand new BUZ 90 (600V) and I put a diode on (+) before the midlle of coils (F407, great!). That's because the MEG give back a lot of voltage sometimes (when makes sparks and charges between tourns, extraordinary). When these sparks occurs, the voltage increase high to 1-5 KVolts and the output coils makes buzzz... and sparks appears too... and even a lot of EM radiation and ozone also; is exactly like I was on mountains surrounded by negative ions... hehehe... So, my tonight tests: on only a output coils, the other one remains free (which is not good, and I don't recommand to you coz the high potential can burn your load free coil). Test 1. Input: 25 volts and 0.14 A = 3.5 watts on input. Output: 655 volts and 0,025 A = 16,375 watts on output of a single coil, frequency unknown, probably 30-35 kHz Test 2. Input 25 volts and o.14 A =3.5 watts input. (I watch this time for highest voltage on analogic multimeter and different frequency) Output: 860 volts and 0,025 A = 21,5 watts, great! So, all this on a single output coil and with a neon lamp of 6 watts! With the both neon lamps, sorry, one is a little broken, the input watts is around 4 watts! For test 2, this mean a COP of 6,14 on a single output coil! For both, the COP will be around 10-11, coz increased wattage consumption on input. I can confirm now that Tom Bearden and JL Naudin MEG experiences and Bearden active vacuum theory is absolutely true and extraordinary! All this is so fascinant! So, one more MEG with COP over 10 is registered on JL Naudin Labs! Great! Soon, even more! I love you! Johnny AUM Ps. I didn't have yet a frequencemeter and a scope but hope to get some tools soon! All was measured with analogic and digital multimeters! Analogic work even better than digitals! And I confirm that the neons lights higher than in the usual build (220 V starter+coil, etc) I confirm also that when I move the magnet, the light of neons varyes semnificatively, but not so big as you may expect! The magnet is ferite magnet! I will try to close the loop with 9V rechargables as power suplly! Or with a solar cells panel must be tryied also! Soon also the MEG Bearden controller diagram as I understand it is actually! johnny_aum yahoo.com www.geocities.com/john_aum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ Messages archives at : http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/ To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe egroups.com JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:43:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA27833 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:43:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:43:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010105083746.03e283b0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 08:41:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: pH measurements! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"8IF781.0.so6.GsTLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: This morning I measured the pH of both the original 0.57 M K2CO3 stock solution (unused) and the used electrolyte from my Mills experiment Run 1 (287 hours of electrolysis at 0.833 amps). I'm using an new, uncalibrated pH meter from Cole-Parmer with an amber-glass electrode. The meter reads about 9 on Austin tap water...which is about right I think (we're definitely alkaline here in the Central Texas limestone country). Both solutions read 11.66 pH. ???? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 06:56:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30984 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:56:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 06:56:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3A55E324.85B5829A austininstruments.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 09:07:16 -0600 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments,Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some Final Remarks X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ukOTa3.0.5a7.D2ULw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: ... > What rules would I use? Simple: > > (1) Introducing personal pejoratives into a discussion is a violation. > > (2) Responding pejoratively to personal pejoratives *that were directed at > you* is *not* a violation. > > (3) When leveling criticism at a prior message, failure to quote the > specific statement being criticized is a violation. > > Any person, including the owner, would be free to point out violations, but > would not be exempt from the rules when doing so--which means: you can say > that a statement violates (1), but you cannot violate (1) yourself when > doing so, unless you are exempted by (2). > > Given such a setup, I would expect the group to be self-policing, and I > doubt that anybody would ever reach the point of being actually booted out. > The educational effects of discussions about complaints would bring about > all the behavior alteration that might be needed. --- That description sounds remarkably like USENET, where self-policing degenerates into rampant flaming and off-topic "discussions" seem more often than not to be the norm. It seems to me that since this group was set up for a special purpose and the rules for actively participating in its life clearly laid down, then those rules should be adhered to so that everyone who comes here knows by and large what to expect and what is expected of them. If you want to visit a church, fine. Then go to a church and act like you're in a church. If you want to visit a brothel, fine. Then go to a brothel and act like you're in a brothel. As far as getting booted out of either goes, inappropriate behavior will do it, and if you know what the rules are in the first place and you expect to consistently and persistently break them with impunity, then some interesting questions arise as to your self-image and motivation. --- John Fields From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 07:58:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29168 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:58:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:58:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: Dustin Soodak Subject: "Channeling" Nicky T. In-Reply-To: <200101050653.WAA05547 www.eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Wa2nP2.0.j77.dyULw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Hi Dustin! On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Dustin Soodak wrote: > But this would imply that if you a light-bulb and gave it a modest > velocity away from you(faster than the speeds of any of the individual > molecules in the light bulb), you would no longer see it! Excellent point! I see that I have to expand my thinking. Well, since "photonless" physics is just classical physics, the explanation for the above must already be in the textbooks. Because a light bulb is not like a neon sign, the tungsten atoms in the light bulb filament don't emit the tungsten line spectrum. Instead, they couple together and form complicated 3D "collective oscillators" where the frequency depends on the coupling between atoms (like the QM-textbook example of a shoebox filled with bells, as opposed to individual bells hanging in space and ringing.) All the crazy, time-varying coupling inside the light bulb filament makes its oscillators transmit "white light". A distant single atom would "see" this light every time the frequency swept across the atom's line spectrum. A distant collection of molecules (such as a hunk of tungsten) would also "see" this light (and become heated) when one of the collective frequency patterns of the light bulb happened to hit one of the the collective frequency patterns of the distant cold tungsten. In conventional terms, the light bulb would become invisible only if it was moving at a relativistic velocity, so that its thermal spectrum moved down into radio waves, or up into x-rays, so that distant materials no longer interacted. But now we're talking about something VERY COOL: collective frequency patterns of groups of coupled oscillators. This is hidden within QM physics, in Solid State statistical concepts (Fermi surface and similar stuff.) But if we ignore the textbooks and instead look at atoms as being "crystal radios", something extremely interesting is revealed. It's something that's not in any physics textbook, as far as I know. It has direct engineering applications. Check it out: SINGLE atoms are like conventional radio transmitters and receivers: if their tuning doesn't match, then the "receiver" cannot hear the "transmitter". Ah, but GROUPS of coupled atoms are a little bit like spread spectrum radio: they give out multispectral "white light". On the other hand, they are not at all like SS radio, because a fixed group of atoms puts out a weird multi-peak signal, and a distant but IDENTICAL group of atoms... WILL BE RESONANT, and will receive that strange multi-peak signal by the "energy sucking" resonance effect. It's as if a radio transmitter had five tuning knobs and ten "coupling" knobs, and its signal could only be strongly received by a distant receiver if the fifteen knobs on the receiver were set to the exact same setting as those on the transmitter! Change one setting, and you'd only receive a tiny "off peak" style of nonresonant signal. I suspect that this is what N. Tesla was talking about when he claimed to have an "unbreakable" radio cryptography system back at the turn of the century. It's a "molecule analogy" radio system. The five tuning knobs mentioned above are the atoms in a five-atom molecule. So, for a secure transmitter, use FIFTY coupled oscillators and hundreds of coupling adjustments, then tune an identical receiver to the same pattern (so it's in "bizarro-resonance" with the transmitter). Now transmit. The receiver will respond very strongly, just like the "energy sucking" mode of a crystal radio. Now VARY one of the transmitter adjustments slightly, and the signal at the receiver will vary hugely, so you can communicate via a sort of "FM radio" effect. But anyone who tries to listen in will hear nothing but constant unmodulated white noise. This is "geometrical" tuning, where the "virtual shape" of the receiver must match the "shape" of the transmitter, and similar "shapes" can communicate by a nasty-complicated signal which looks like plain old white noise. Sounds more like Sympathetic Magic than physics, eh? If you think THAT's cool, then how about this: molecules which can sense each other at a distance. Go back to the crystal radios: hang two identical crystal radios on the ends of long threads, then "illuminate" them with a transmitter. They will resonate and therefore oscillate strongly. But the AC fields from their inductors will cause physical forces to arise between them. Do they attract each other? Repel? I'll have to try it and see. If they attract, then boy do I ever have something cool on my hands. If the two crystal radios are pulled together, yet when they are detuned the attraction force vanishes... then we have an analogy for key/lock bonding in biological molecules, where the "key" is electromagnetically attracted by the "lock" at quite a distance away, but only if the tuned resonance is there. I about shit myself when this idea appeared in my head a few months back. But it was too big for my brain, so I forgot all about it until now. Now visualise two groups of identical coupled oscillators which are being illuminated by white noise from the environment. They will PULL UPON each other. If these "oscillators" are really the active sites of two separate biomolecules, then I've just solved the great riddle of how the "keys" can find the "locks" over great distances in biochemistry, and despite the immense jostling of thermal motion. They are like crypto-coded AC magnets, where the "magnets" attract each other only if the "codes" in each one are identical. Is this cool or what?!!! And not only could biology be using this for selective bonding, it could also use it for communication between distant molecules without using nerve-fiber "cables", and globs of molecules could actually be quantum computer arrays with an "invisible nervous system" connecting them, so biological tissue is like a "brain-stuff" made out of Cray Supercomputers, and maybe Amoebas and Paramecia are just as intelligent as cockroaches and snails!!!!!! Heh. But maybe the dangling crystal radios repel each other, and my analogy is all wrong. > The idea about photons not really existing except as waves is a fairly > accurate conceptual tool though. > > I've actually seen a similar idea in solid-state physics: The > transmition of sound can be modelled by considering each atom to be a > simple harmonic oscillator(like a pendulum) that is weakly connected to > its neighbors. Bingo! In classical physics, that's "flowing heat energy." In QM, it's "acoustic mode thermal radiation" (as opposed to IR light.) And the quantized acoustic frequencies are not conceptually different than the quantized IR light frequencies emitted by hot matter. > If one atom has a certian amount of vibrational energy, > it will transfer this energy to its neighbors in discrete units(this > conclusion came from actual mathematical proof as opposed to idle > speculation). For this reason, they coined the term "phonon" which is > just the audio equivalent of a photon. In one lecture I attended, the > professor demonstrated this with an apparatus that consisted of a piece > of string (streched horizontally between a couple of poles) from which > he hung two pendulums. He pushed one to give it some energy and after a > few seconds it (relatively)suddenly stopped as all of its energy was > transferred to its neighbor. Yeah! And then the energy in the neighbor goes back again. This gives a double-peaked spectrum, where the distance between the frequency peaks is the same as the "sloshing" frequency of the energy going back and forth between the two pendulums. > I'm suprised that this example isn't given as an explanation of > wave/particle duality in Q.M. especially since this concept is regularly > applied in solid state physics. One professor I talked to seemed to see > no difference between the reason for the "existence" of phonons and > photons. I didn't quite believe it, though, until I read your article, > since the normal way Q.M. is taught makes you think that photons are > some sort of fundamental particle. That's it exactly. Textbooks teach us that photons are "real", as if they were baseballs, and their quantum-mechanical "unreality" is then applied in later classes like a conceptual coat of paint. Even the educators seem to mostly think in these terms. But in fact, the concept is "nothing but paint" and there are no baseballs underneath. > I've also seen the idea of atoms absorbing energy by emitting waves that > partly cancelled out the incoming waves but the description in class was > fairly confusing and not detailed enough to give an explanation for what > caused the atoms to emmit the cancellation waves in the first place. > > It was also stated that this was just the classical E.M. theory. In > fact, when I read you "energy suction" series I suddenly realized that I > had never actually seen an official explanation of how atoms emit and > absorb photons(this after being a physics major for 4 years!). Sure > they teach you how to calculate the absorbsion and emission > lines(frequencies) but the actual process seemed to be taken as an > axiom(the atom CAN emit and absorb at an energy, E (which means > frequency E/h), therefore it DOES). One of these days I am going to > corner a physics professor and not give up until I get a straight > answer. Heh. Be careful. That's the same as penetrating the Denial of a lunatic. Screaming rage is to be expected. All the stories about "academic politics" are no joke in my opinion. Whenever academic reputation (and especially self-image) is concerned, physics truth becomes very very secondary as compared to silencing the voice which threatens to shatter your whole carefully cultivated conviction of self-importance. Better find a HUMBLE physics teacher who considers himself to still be a "mere student." ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 08:04:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32384 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:04:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:04:35 -0800 Message-ID: <00c701c07739$34568320$c48f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re:Test Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:01:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tnTEb.0.vv7.J2VLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 08:13:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA04382 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:13:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:13:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010105111243.00afdd70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 11:12:58 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Oowis3.0.R41.HAVLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. There is very little serious CF literature on line, unfortunately. Most of it is in places like the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry. What do you mean by "reproducible"? People use this to mean: 1. Experiments that the author claims he can repeat. 2. Experiments that other experts say they have replicated. 3. Experiments that anyone can reproduce. Palladium heavy water CF falls in category 2. There is nothing in category 3. > Some internet links I emailed . . . We have miscellaneous links at: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/links.html For pure CF only, see: http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html For recent work in Japan, see: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 08:19:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06821 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:19:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 08:19:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:25:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: John Berry ..Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0 ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Fnjfe.0.Xg1.hGVLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Dear vo., John Berry remarks ... in paraphrase .... " I am surprized so many people in "xxxx" believe ..." The "this" John Berry refers to is a description of some magnetic effects and interactions. In many posts regarding magnetism it is clear the posters have either a] not done thier homework b] have accepted or choose to as fact some description of magnetic effects which may embody one or more of the following... i] simplifed ii] the product of another not well educated presenter iii] "hopeful" science. NOTE: "hopeful science" is science that can come from many sources that is easier or that you 'wish it was like this reality go to the blazes' iv] plain wrong v] new science with no basis It is worth the time to educate one's self in several models of practical magnetic application training. Idealized computer pictures and simplified texts do not take the place of real world hands on education. Here are a few simple guidelines: a] magnetic materials and circuits are not simple or linear b] item [a] WILL change with temperature, field magnitudes and time variant effects of filed changes c] matters will usually NOT fall the way of simple operation when dealing with magnetic circuits d] magnetic circuits are one thing... magnetic materials are another and it is rare a given magnetic material described in a book will be easily matched in trying to buy some ... e] magnetics and Murphy's laws work in synergy From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:03:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17237 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:03:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:03:06 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010105115910.00950ca0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 12:03:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Rpt: Water Transformer In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"55oGm2.0.ED4.QnWLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Horace: There will be no difference between the DC magnetic properties of the water coil and one made from copper. However. There will be a difference in the actual inductance of the conductor and the DC resistance. What I don't understand is why you are doing this? What is the potential end application? At 08:43 AM 1/4/01 -0900, you wrote: >Once again, you have used no control coil in order to compare the effects >of the 50 mA in a water coil to a similar copper coil. The easiest way to >get a control is to make a simmilarly shaped coil, but of copper, and put >it in series with the water coil. This takes almost no effort. PLEASE try >to design a control into your experiments. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 10:45:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32588 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:45:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:45:18 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:53:34 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: The Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"BI68B1.0.5z7.zOXLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Aristotle, Bacon, Descartes, and in 1969, a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba observed that water can freeze faster than cold water. This effect is now called the Mpemba effect because Mpemba's experiments caused some controversy due to the non-intuitive nature of the effect. (See ) The Mpemba effect provides a marvelous concrete example of how important it is to test even the most common sense theories by experiment, and how difficult quantification and a complete characterization of even the simplest results can be. It is reasonable that the Mpemba effect is no illusion, that there are sound reasons for the effect. A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into the freezer. Therefore, the convection eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than those set up in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so, all else being equal, the water with the most initial eddy currents at a given temperature is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect are not the same system when at the same temperature. One has greater kinetic energy than the other and therefore a greater cooling rate due to convection. For example, a test sample consisting of completely still water (if that were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a DIFFERENT SYSTEM when it reaches 10 deg. C than water which starts out as a control sample which is completely still water at 10 deg. C. In the process of the test sample temperature dropping to the starting temperature of the control sample, some of the heat energy of the test sample is converted to kinetic energy in the form of convection eddy currents. Convection eddy currents are initiated SPONTANEOUSLY when there is a thermal gradient applied to a liquid. A thermal gradient converts some of the heat energy into the kinetic energy associated with the eddy currents. The eddy currents are therefore NOT induced by experimental error, but are necessitated by the mere fact that a thermal gradient must be induced in the water sample to cool it. To cool a sample the boundary of the sample must be made cooler than the interior, and thus a thermal gradient is NECESSARILY formed by ANY experimental procedure that cools the water. Once currents are established in water, they last a very long time, often for days, even though they become slow and normally undetectable. This can be shown experimentally by stirring water in a stoppered sink bowl in a specific direction and leaving it for a long period. When the stopper is removed a vortex will form as the water runs down the drain. The direction of the vortex will be the direction the water was stirred. It may be possible that, by extreme effort, and doing the experiment in a zero gravity situation, the effect might be nearly eliminated by nearly eliminating the convection eddy current formation due to the applied thermal gradient. However, some convection currents will always be added or amplified by the application of a thermal gradient to the sample. It is also extremely difficult to avoid momentarily applying a thermal gradient to the boundary itself, when the experiment is begun, and these gradients will be larger for a hot sample than for a cold sample. Supercooling, the ability of water to drop below the freezing temperature when slowly cooled and very pure and still, should amplify the Mpemba effect. The more convection currents in a sample, the less supercooling should occur. Without considerations of supercooling, water freezes at 0 deg. C, and requires about 79.8 calories per gram to make the transition from liquid to solid state, without any change in temperature involved. Liquid water requires only 1 calorie per gram to change 1 deg. C. It takes as much heat transfer to drop 79.8 deg. C as it does to freeze 0 deg. C water. If the starting temperature is below 79.8 deg. C, then the majority of the energy transfer occurs at 0 deg. C. The rate of heat transfer at 0 deg. C is a critical variable in determining which sample freezes first. Convection currents can dramatically affect heat transfer rates, by exposing large volumes of the liquid directly to the heat transfer boundary, be that the container walls or the ice itself. Slow moving molecules are culled out of the moving stream of water at the water-ice boundary. If the water does not move, then the relatively slower mechanism of thermal conduction is all that remains to effect the freezing. If the heat transfer rate at 0 deg. C is only doubled by the increased convection, then water with an initial temperature of less than about 39.9 deg. C will freeze at about the same time as water initially at 0 deg. C. An almost 40 deg. advantage is given to the hotter water. There should not be much doubt that the observers of the effect, Mpemba, Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes were correct, that at least under certain conditions hot water freezes faster than cold, all else being equal, but only experiment tells the tale for sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 11:41:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24341 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:41:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:41:19 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010105141113.00b03168 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:41:12 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Vortex B In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EHNHC1.0.Iy5.UDYLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: given the limited time available to me at present. Regarding the suggestion >of several people that all discussions other than specific lab science >ought to be moved to vortex B, my response is simple: that was tried, and >it didn't work. The reason it didn't work was that Jed Rothwell and others >continued to post material to vortex-l that related to politics, historical >analysis, character-related criticisms of various researchers, etc. Thus I >found myself constantly drawn into such threads, and, naturally, my >unorthodox analytical framework was applied in my messages. . . . Tolerating the >non-lab-related ventings of Bill Beaty's friends or of persons with whom >Bill Beaty agrees won't work, because non-friends and persons with whom >Bill Beaty disagrees consider their views to be just as legitimate, or more >legitimate, than the views of those whose transgressions are ignored. So what? It's Bill's forum, isn't it? I do not understand the problem. Jones is satisfied in his own mind that this forum is politically left-leaning and prejudiced against his point of view. Okay, so he should stop posting here. There are thousands of other forums where he would feel at home. The Socialist Workers Party forum is too far left-leaning for me, and the Southern Partisan is too right, so I do not contribute to either of them. If people here complained loudly about my political postings or discussions of the Wright brothers, I would stop. I do not understand why Jones wants to enforce uniformity in all forums. Some are tightly devoted to one subject, others are eclectic. Some are left leaning, some right, and some are rigidly apolitical. What harm is there in having an e-mail forum where people discuss mainly cold fusion with occasional forays into early aviation, or pink politics? You could have a forum devoted to glass cutting, cloning sheep, the tea ceremony and Bulgarian politics. There might be synergy to those topics. People can discuss or not discuss any list of topics they like, with any set of rules they like, including rules which arbitrarily exclude one particular "unorthodox analytical framework" (Jones'), while welcoming another (mine). If Bill Beaty were in charge of every e-mail forum on earth, Jones would have a point. - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 11:44:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA26689 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:44:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:44:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010105144135.03b660a8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 14:44:27 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Vortex B - oops! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"981ln2.0.uW6.TGYLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: I meant to put that response to Jones about Vortex B in Vortex B. I forgot to redirect the message. My apologies to Lynn Kurtz and others who filter out Vortex B. - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 12:03:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02663 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:03:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 12:03:07 -0800 Message-ID: <002701c07753$5eb4ec00$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org><5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:09:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"1GfEb3.0.Vf.wXYLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >The only time two things are ATTRACTED is when their movement > together LOWERS the total system energy...right? > This rule does not appear to work in an obvious way for either magnets or polarizable materials. I can describe simple experiments that illustrate that attraction of a soft magnetic material to a magnet increases magnetic field energy while also outputting mechanical energy. Perhaps with the correct formulation that included the internal energy of the materials your rule could be made to work. Magnetic dipoles appear to source energy if a field of the same polarity is externally applied. Naturally, this is what is happening when the internal dipoles align as a soft magnetic material is magnetized. There appears to be no way to keep this energy sourced by magnets under easily testable conditions, I have looked at many specific cases both theoretically and experimentally. There is a theoretical possibility of keeping some of this energy with special materials and under extreme conditions of high frequency and high fields, but current technology may not be sufficient to achieve this. Perhaps the VTA/SQM provides the proper conditions through new physics. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 13:26:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06140 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:26:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:26:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3A475DFA.330B83FE ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 06:47:22 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 05, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2lyr82.0.vV1.klZLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Jan 05, 2001 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:20:24 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Jan 01 Washington, DC 1. BOB AND THE TREE: SO WHO SAID IT WOULD BE EASY? Since Oct 18, Bob Park has been working at home while recuperating. Next week, however, he is returning to the hospital for major surgery and will be out of contact for at least two weeks. Not to worry, the tree investigation (WN 29 Dec 00) will surely look into this, and the superb Washington APS staff will keep WN readers informed. 2. THE NEW WEAPONS RACE: BEYOND A GROUND-BASED NMD SYSTEM. High on the Bush priority list is a quick review of Clinton's NMD plans, which the new administration regards as hopelessly timid. Since they're choosing the review panel, Bush advisors know that the review will propose a layered defense. With land, sea and air components, there's something for everyone. Think of this new weapons race as tax relief for the defense industry. Meanwhile, General Shalikashvili, the Special Advisor to Clinton on the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, issued his final recommendations. He urges Bush's Administration to do what Clinton's didn't. 3. THE NEW SPACE RACE: THIS COULD BRING CHINA TO HER KNEES. China plans to conduct its second pilotless test flight early this month of the Shenzhou spacecraft, a step that it hopes will lead to its own space station. Apparently China is convinced that launching people into space will make it a space power, even as Russia abandons Mir, and the US gropes around for a way to justify the ISS. But the real challenge is still translating "Shenzhou" into English (WN 24 Nov 99). Is it "God Vessel" or "Beautiful Land"? Maybe they could settle it with a ballot. 4. ABRAHAM TO HEAD (BEHEAD?) DOE. Spencer Abraham, Bush nominee for the thankless post of Energy Secretary, has had a checkered relationship with the department. He spent much of his term in the Senate supporting abolition of DOE, though a Bush spokesman stated that Abraham has since changed his mind. Abraham has backed DOE's science mission; he was among those recently calling for increased funding for the Office of Science (WN 15 Sep 00). 5. TECH GURUS EDUCATE BUSH. Bush met with tech-sector CEO's this week for policy advice, and got a unanimous answer: we need more investment in K-12 science and math, to create a technically educated workforce. Bush proclaimed the issue a priority. 6. GOODBYE SENSENBRENNER! The game of musical chairs for House committee postings has ended, and moderate Sherwood Boehlert (R- NY) ascends to the Science chair. Sensenbrenner (R-WI) moves on to Judiciary, where a science staffer quipped "they will be welcome to him." Education and Workforce goes to Boehner (R-OH). They passed over the more moderate Petri (R-WI), recent host of an "Intelligent Design" briefing before Congress (WN 12 May 00). THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 13:49:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA14696 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:49:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:49:21 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircraft ? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 08:48:41 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20010105.142643.-441751.5.artr juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20010105.142643.-441751.5.artr juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA14663 Resent-Message-ID: <"Me-3I.0.bb3.X5aLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: In reply to art b Rosenblum's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:05:09 -0500: [snip] >I doubt that David is an experienced pilot. With experience one learns >that airports are the main problem with aviation. Navigation is very >simple with the new satellite GPS systems and you fly across the nation >and hardly see another craft except at airports. A craft requiring no >airports which is also safe from engine failure, is not that difficult. [snip] This is true under present conditions, however the two other factors mentioned by other contributors to the thread also need to be taken into consideration. First, cheap power and cheap vehicles would probably lead to a huge increase in traffic. Second, that increase will not be as large as one might expect, due to the increase in telecommuting. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 13:53:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16759 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:53:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 13:53:50 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircraft ? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 08:53:15 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <20010105.142643.-441751.5.artr juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20010105.142643.-441751.5.artr juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA16697 Resent-Message-ID: <"DE12G.0.p54.k9aLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: A It is also possible that the Britt and Papp engines depend at least partially on hydrinos for their operation. If so, then they could easily be used to replace piston engines in light aircraft. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 14:07:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22883 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:07:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:07:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:06:57 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: test, ignore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dgZ7J3.0.Vb5.3MaLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 14:09:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA24263 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:09:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 14:09:57 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircraft ? Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:09:22 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <5mgc5tci38bdo25ksq2pp3am7qufvvckjp 4ax.com> References: <20010104.191314.-228797.18.artr juno.com> <000001c07760$554317c0$5d5bccd1@asus> In-Reply-To: <000001c07760$554317c0$5d5bccd1 asus> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA24227 Resent-Message-ID: <"YPpaC2.0.4x5.rOaLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: In reply to Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:46:51 -0800: [snip] >About using a BLP plasma to run an engine directly. One needs to do homework >on the BLP processes and what really goes on. The BLP strontium catalyzed >hydrogen-hydrino reaction occurs well below atmospheric pressure under >carefully controlled conditions which are inconsistent with the ejection of >reaction mass, which is the fundamental action of jet and rocket engines. In >the case of a turbofan jet, burning fuel **mass** reacts against turbine >blades which drive the large fans which suck in air and add to the expelled >energy of the jets. Hi Mike, You may be correct, but I suspect that the main purpose of the fuel in modern jets is to supply energy that heats and expands the incoming air, which in turn supplies most of the mass. The change in momentum comes from the increased velocity of the exhaust compared to the air taken in, not primarily due to an increase in mass due to the addition of fuel. Energy from hydrino production could replace energy currently supplied by conventional fuels. The main problem I foresee here is that if a hydrino shrinkage reaction is required in the jet engine itself, then this would appear wasteful of catalyst. However even this is not certain, as anecdotal evidence of cars running on water would seem to suggest that considerable energy is released when a hydrogen-hydrino-air mix is ignited, which may leave open the possibility of keeping the catalyst and the air stream separate. Another slight possibility may be complete separation of the processes with electric current forming the link. I.e. the heat source for the jet might be an electric arc. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 15:08:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15388 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:08:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 15:08:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:07:04 -0500 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Testing Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <200101051807_MC2-C0CD-9A64 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA15343 Resent-Message-ID: <"-YRQX2.0.Pm3.aFbLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: On Thursday I received a couple of msgs from Vortex which triggered my Norton AntiVirus into frenzied action. I deleted all the mail received during that pass. I use OzWin v 2.33 as my OLR and now find that there seems to be nothing from Vortex-l, so am sending this to see whether the system has collapsed. I would appreciate any explanation from anyone. TIA Norman, Surrey, England From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 16:32:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17022 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:32:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 16:32:37 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH help, please Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:31:10 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010102093552.03f856d0 earthtech.org> <3A521D36.7D653819@ix.netcom.com> <3A525239.5DF40E0D@ix.netcom.com> <3A54A862.942339E8@ix.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <3A54A862.942339E8 ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA16372 Resent-Message-ID: <"p_4qJ1.0.q94.aUcLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:44:34 -0600: [snip] >> Not personally, though I know of successful CF with pure silver. > >Can you give me the reference or any more information? The only excess energy I >know of was when silver was plated with Pd. Sorry, I'm not at liberty to reveal this. > >> There is >> also a report of drastically increased H2 and O2 production with silver >> plated copper wire electrodes. > >Do you mean drastically increased H2 and O2 over that expected based on the amount >of current? Yes. >Because this would violate Faraday's law, an additional chemical >reaction would have to be involved. Not necessarily a chemical reaction. It might be based on radiolysis catalyzed by the passage of current (e.g. "all" those alphas mentioned below ;) >> Furthermore Ag can be a Mills catalyst according to: >> Ag+ + Ag++ -> Ag + Ag+++ -27.254 eV >> H - 27.2 eV -> Hy + 13.6 eV >> and if the resultant Hydrino reacts with the Ag+++ in a fusion reaction, >> then you get: >> Hy + Ag107 -> Pd104 + He4 + 5.8 MeV or >> Hy + Ag109 -> Pd106 + He4 + 6.3 MeV [snip] >An interesting idea that would be easy to test. Why do you think an alpha would >result rather than formation of Ag108 or Pd107 from Ag107, with subsequent beta >emission? What would be the half-life of such a reaction? Weak force mediated nuclear reactions (i.e. beta emission reactions) tend to be very unlikely, which is why we still have a sun. The other possibility is gamma-ray de-excitation, but this is also relatively slow compared to particle emission. I don't know for a fact that alpha emission would take place, but I'm basing my assumption on the fact that normal hot fusion reactions result in particle emission 99.99999+% of the time, e.g. D + D -> He3 + n or D + D -> T + p rather than D + D -> He4 + gamma. This is because emitting one or more baryons (either singly or in a cluster) is a mere matter of "rearranging the deck chairs", and happens in about 1E-23 seconds. A counter argument could be that addition of a thermal neutron to Ag107 (which could be seen as analogous to adding a hydrino), usually results in the formation of Ag108, so that for hydrino addition (i.e. proton addition), it might result in Cd108, with consequent gamma emission, or possibly the electron accompanying the hydrino would absorb the energy, and be ejected. I wonder if perhaps the D,D fusion reaction is an exception, rather than the rule, because the first excited state of the helium nucleus is so high (the half life of decay reactions is inversely correlated to the energy of the decay)? In the case of Cd108, the first excited state is at .63 MeV as near as I can tell, and there are many more closely following (see http://hpngp01.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/decay?In108+EC ). Anyone who feels competent to make a prediction, please feel free to jump in here :). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 18:50:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA09729 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:50:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:50:44 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010105205914.00a5e660 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 20:59:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers In-Reply-To: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"q5EyT3.0.-N2.4WeLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Find anything I would like them also... At 12:35 PM 1/4/01 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, > > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. > > Some internet links I emailed (including the Economist's reference to a >second aether theory, and JR's meeting summaries on Vortex) were given to >an AP >reporter who 'reports on physics'. No guessing please. Let him choose his pace >or nouveau rejection. He 'scoffed, read intently, and expressed surprise >at all >the activity'. > > Now I think physics is in an 'until death do us part' period which cannot >be changed by reporters or reliable CF experiments, but still I will mail a >half dozen recent * reliable experiments * - kick it up a notch - papers (no >guarantee that they will be passed along or read), if I can find them in a >library or someone mails me a copy. I have one Mizuno, many Infinite Energies, >would like Iwamura, do not have access to Fusion Technology, and will >visit the >library next week. Suggestions welcome. > > I'll put an email summary by/about SL on top if he gets the pulse to work >anywhere. That's the PdCF >electrolytic reliability experiment. Either that succeeds or the electrolyte >experiment is dead, except for solution additions, e.g., noble gases, and >modifications e.g., Iwamura, Mizuno). > > If you need the snail address, send an email. Thanks. > > John Neergaard > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 20:49:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA17247 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:49:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:49:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:46:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? Resent-Message-ID: <"lRsUG2.0.JD4.7FgLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: ***{Well, the "other fish" got "fried" in 1 day, so I'm back sooner than expected. (I expected that particular project to spill over well into the weekend, minimum, and wouldn't have been surprised if it consumed Monday as well, but, shock of shocks, it didn't. :-) --MJ}*** >The only time I've ever removed someone from a list is on FREENRG-L for >repeated direct violations of rule #2 (no insults.) All of my lists are >experiments, and Vortex-L does not have an anti-flamer rule. This was >intentional. I wanted to see how the "online community" would be >different if the "community" sets its own standards for behavior, rather >than having them entirely imposed by the moderator. > >After each of several past flamewars on vortex ***{Whether your dispute with me is or is not a "flamewar" is of no more importance than the question of whether the character-related pejoratives that we have been exchanging are best described as "namecalling," "insults," or "corrective feedback." What matters is this: such exchanges cannot happen if nobody fires the first shot--which means: if we all stick to *impersonal* and substantive discussions about events of interest, with a primary focus on anomalous scientific claims, these troubled waters will be avoided. They will *not* be avoided, however, so long as the "moderator" reserves the right to impugn the character of a subscriber, call it "corrective feedback," and, when the aggrieved party returns fire, to dismiss that response as "namecalling," "insults," etc. Whether you like it or not, you are *not* the moral superior of the rest of us, and your "corrective feedback" can be wrong. Therefore, in reason, you should accept the fact that when you attempt to make a public example of someone, your reasoning may be criticized by the person you attempted to pillory and by those who agree with him, and in the process you may discover that *your* behavior, motivations, character, etc., have been called into question. "Corrective feedback," like it or not, is a two-edged sword. --MJ}*** , I asked if people here >wouldn't prefer that this forum have a rule like the freenrg-L rule#2 (see >below). In the past, everyone here wanted the freedom instead, and >tolerated the occasional flamer to get it. This worked because being >temporarily banished to vortexB almost always caused the misbehaving >subscriber to either change their behavior or to leave the group. ***{You continue to natter on as if it is a given that the subscriber--i.e., me--is the one who has misbehaved, despite the palpably obvious fact, demonstrated by extensive point-by-point rebuttals which you have ignored, that *you* are the one who has misbehaved. --MJ}*** >But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining >directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get >the message across. ***{What you call "community pressure" is, in fact, merely the oozing forth from some others in this group of the same immorality that is manifest in you. No reasonable person gives a hoot in hell about such nonsense. Morality requires that we do nothing which we sense to be wrong, until and unless those feelings of wrongness have been overcome by logic and evidence. To bow to "community pressure" before being rationally convinced that one has erred is to choose evil, and, over time, causes the person to become evil. Here is a description of the process which I quoted earlier in a reply to Scott, but which is equally appropriate here: "...the social reasoner is a person who chose to surrender the creation of his personality to the thoughts, values, and judgments of others. Over a period of many years, he repeatedly chose to adopt beliefs and personality traits that he sensed were wrong, because he perceived them to be socially expedient. His fatal error lay in his failure to realize that each such act drained off a tiny portion of his self respect until, in the end, nothing remained but a feeling of self-loathing. Thus if he finally achieved the material success which he had sought, he discovered that he could not enjoy it. He discovered, instead, that he was miserable and unhappy." "While he does not understand, intellectually, what has happened to him, he nevertheless feels its emotional effects. He feels dead inside, and he feels an overpowering fear and hatred, welling up from deep within himself, whenever he encounters people who, psychologically, are alive. People who are self-assertive, people who reason and form their own opinions, people who argue, people who don't seem to care whether they fit in--he hates them all." "In other times and places, men like him, acting on feelings like his, had filled the world with bloodshed and slaughter. They did not merely hate people who were psychologically alive: they killed them. They stretched them on the rack; they burned out their eyes with red hot irons; they stripped the flesh from their still living bodies..." "The point is simple: the social reasoner feels a deep seated emotional need to see self-assertiveness beaten down. He hates those who had the courage to use their own minds and rely on their own judgments, and he wants to see them miserable and unhappy. Such experiences seem to justify the ease with which he allowed the castles of his own soul to be overrun. Every time he sees such persons beaten down, his inner pain is eased. Such sights suggest that, in truth, there was no other way, that his lifelong policy of surrender and self-destruction was correct, that his own inner misery is, in fact, unavoidable." [*The Dogs of Capitalism*, pg. 296] I believe that the above words contain the most important *practical* insight in human existence--to wit: they explain what a person must do, if he is render his own happiness possible. (And, as a free bonus, they explain what evil is and how it arises.) --Mitchell Jones}*** Rational people respond to complaints from the >"neighbors." ***{I responded by explaining, in vast detail, why I felt that your criticisms were wrong, and you made no effort to overcome those arguments. Result: it is now crystal clear that what you really want is for me to give in despite my strong sense that you are wrong--which means: you want me to join you and several other morally challenged members of this group, and choose evil. Well, here's a flash for you: it ain't gonna happen. If you want to change my behavior, you will have to convince me that I am wrong; if you want to convince me that I am wrong, you will have to overturn my reasons for thinking that it is *you* who is wrong; and if you want to overturn my reasons, you will have to address them directly, rather than respond to caricatures that you have concocted and substituted in their place. --MJ}*** And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all >complaints? ***{It is you and your little claque of supporters who are defensive and who ignore feedback. I have been calm and reasonable in my postings on this topic from the beginning, and, truth be told, I find this business to be quite amusing. (My wife and I have been chuckling about these goings on for days.) Here, therefore, are your choices: (1) You can respond to my critricisms rather than to your fantasy caricatures of those criticisms--which means: go back and quote my actual words and respond to them. If you do that, then we can play this out, and see if you have a shred of a basis for anything that you have said. (2) You can continue wasting my time by posting non-specific insinuations and pejorative speculations about my character, while snipping out and ignoring every specific thing I say in response. If you do that, I will put you in my killfile. (3) You can stop yammering on about this and we will simply agree to disagree. (4) You can kick me out of the group. For those who may wonder why I don't simply unsubscribe, the answer is simple: it is wrong to give up on people before they have revealed themselves, and seen themselves, with stark clarity, and have openly and unambiguously chosen the wrong path. I therefore respond to interpersonal conflict by striving to render the alternatives crystal clear. Rejection is an act I leave to others. Clarity is the only weapon I need, because darkness flees before the light. Result: evil people automatically exclude themselves from my life. (It's like magic! :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues >warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and >anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their >own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside >criticism. ***{I repeat: it is you who believes that he can act any damned way he pleases; it is you who, by answering to no one, places himself in the position of writing his own report card; and it is you who is snipping out and ignoring criticism on the basis of "dreamed up" reasons. --MJ}*** >Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" >(see FREENRG #2 below). ***{How about a ban on *giving* "insults"--i.e., a ban on introducing personal pejoratives into a discussion? The answer: blank out. --MJ}*** >There's a common alternative on listserves which has been mentioned >several times here: on a case by case basis, expel misbehaving members by >holding a vote. > >Mitch quoted 90% as the suggested majority needed to expel a subscriber. >That's EXTREMELY high, since it allows gross misbehavior to continue even >if 89.9% of subscribers feel strongly enough about the situation to want >the offender kicked out. ***{It's not high at all. If anything, it is too low. What needs to be recognized is this: sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you. That means we should err on the side of tolerance and freedom of speech rather than on the side of peremptory action. Given the fact that subscribers have the option of killfiling or simply not reading the rants of flamers and cranks, it is clear that the danger lies on the other side: in the direction of censorship, intolerance, and the imposition of mindless "community standards." Thus I would say that if 5% of the group members find an individual worth reading, then the rest should simply put up with him. (David Dennard, for example, should have been tolerated, as I said at the time.) And, no, I do not say that to protect myself: you are not contractually bound to any constraints, and it is transparently obvious that you are not going to accede to my wishes in this matter. The fact is that the standards I am advocating here are a description of how I would run a group such as this, if I were to ever start one. I do not like tyrants and, unlike you, I will never put myself in the position of being one. --MJ}*** In disciplinary actions taken against group >members in general, several members must "denounce" the offender in order >to initate the vote, 2/3 majority is typical, and the vote is performed as >a secret ballot to prevent acts of vengence. ***{A secret ballot places arbitrary power in the hands of the person who collects and counts the votes--you, in this case. Result: he can state virtually any totals that he pleases, and there is no way to catch him in a lie. He is, once again, in the position of writing his own report card, since he can adjust the vote totals to achieve the outcome he prefers, and no one will know. The proper way to do it, obviously, is with an open ballot. That way, people can scan down the list, and determine whether their intentions are as has been recorded there. As for "acts of vengeance," the mere fact of putting the decision in the hands of a large number of people--e.g., 90% of the readership--acts to prevent that from happening, by vastly expanding the number of targets for outrage. (If the "moderator" kicks some nut off the group, there is only *one* target: the "moderator." But if 118 out of 130 subscribers publicly vote to do so, the potential for violence is greatly reduced.) Bottom line: an open ballot is better than a secret ballot, and the larger the majority required to kick someone off, the better, from the standpoint of preventing "acts of vengeance." More comments below. --Mitchell Jones}*** >(FREENRG-L rule #2 is below) > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > >2. Flamewars are banned. No namecalling or intentional insults on this > list. Use private email if you want to be nasty. To prevent spontaneous > flamewars, be ever aware of the psychology of email, since it is easy > to misinterpret a message, hear unintentional insults, and respond in > kind. If you respond in kind to a nonexistant insult, then *you* threw > the first punch. So, if you feel offended, first ask the author if a > particular statement is intended to be insulting. You might get an > explanation or apology. ***{This is well said, true, and good advice, in cases where there is ambiguity. --MJ}*** If you respond in kind to a genuine insult, > you lower yourself to their level, participate in a flamewar ***{I also agree with the above, because of the word "genuine". A genuine insult is mindless and non-rational--e.g., telling someone that his mother gives great head, to cite a recent example--and responding in kind to mindlessness is, of necessity, to become mindless oneself. --MJ}*** , and > jeapordize your subscription to the list. And if you give a cool- > headed response to an obvious attack, you make your attacker look > like a flamer. ***{Not necessarily. What you don't seem to realize is that the introduction of personal pejoratives into a science group is inappropriate even if it *isn't* mindless--i.e., even if you do it in a calm and serious tone, and even if you avoid crude insults such as telling someone that his mother gives great head. Thus when I responded to your introduction of character-related pejoratives into the discussion by calmly and reasonably dissecting your comments, and by calmly and reasonably speculating about *your* character and motivations, I did not make you look like a flamer. How could I? You did not tell me that my mother gives great head: you calmly and seriously cast aspersions on my character. Thus your behavior was not an instance of flaming. It was, instead, merely inflammatory. But that's all that is required for it to be inappropriate fare in a science discussion group. The problem with posting such comments in groups not specifically designed to hear them is simply this: any large group of people is guaranteed to contain a number of people who, like you, see no difference between a calm and serious dissection of someone's character, and the posting of mindless insults. Result: they will treat your posting of such material as an excuse to give voice to their mindless resentments and hatreds, and the resulting heat is likely to obscure the light that might have emerged from a private, off-line discussion, or from a discussion in a group that has been designated for such purposes. --MJ}*** Thus If you absolutely must respond to insults, do > it via private email, keep it OFF freenrg-L. ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 22:23:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10095 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:23:54 -0800 Message-ID: <20010106062352.9412.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:23:52 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"UWavO3.0.gT2.vdhLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: [snip] > Diagram: These ASCII things almost never go right, need about 82+ char. > per line > _ _______________________________________________________________ ___ > |_| > |_______________________________STEEL__________________________N|NEO|S > > > So lets say the steel end-piece is now attached to the long flux > conductor. Now how much > more energy does it take to remove the magnet from the steel conductor > than if the steel > end-piece was not there? Not much more energy. The reason is that most of the flux from the permanent magnet returns through the space fairly near the magnet, so not much of the magnet's flux makes it to the far end of even a highly permeable rod. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 22:37:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA13092 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:37:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:37:26 -0800 Message-ID: <20010106063725.26483.qmail web2101.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ftN4i2.0.VC3.cqhLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: > Folks, we've got a LOT of scientific talent on this list. I want to see > this list return to a few-messages-per-day high-quality discussion of > ONLY scientific topics. > > Anybody with me? This is what I would like to see, too. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Fri Jan 5 23:05:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21262 for billb eskimo.com; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:05:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:05:35 -0800 Message-ID: <20010106070533.15756.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:05:33 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"uXyI33.0.BC5._EiLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > The following ideas can be mathematically shown to "Violate The laws of > Physics".... > > First I will tackle Newton and his "Equal and opposite...". Then show it > is possible to create energy, Both using the same loophole to "cheat". Scott Little correctly pointed out that you neglected the momentum of the electromagnetic field in your first example. In your example from water hammer, you similarly neglected the energy and momentum in the wave, an acoustic wave in that case. The same holds for wave energy in the elastic media in your other similar examples. It follows mathematically from Newton's laws of motion and some calculus that elastic waves in matter participate in the conservation of total momentum and energy of the medium. > My point here is clear, Just because lots of people with Ph.D. in front > of their name > believe something and call it a "Law" of physics doesn't mean that the > universe agrees. On the other hand, just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn't mean that the person has not studied a chunk of the universe fairly deeply. Nor does it mean that the person has stopped learning more about the universe since acquiring the Ph.D. "Laws" of physics are science's tentative summary statements about how some aspects of the universe appear to work. "Laws" is a common, but poor word. "Theories" is better. The goal is agreement with the universe, whether one has a Ph.D. or not. The history of science is littered by theories killed by data. Theories change if new data doesn't fit in ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 05:26:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15891 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:26:51 -0800 From: erev4 yahoo.com Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 07:28:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer (pbm 1.17b) Message-Id: <200101060719121.SM00301 ws42.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"7nmFn1.0.Cu3.RqnLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner, being serious and not facetious, but possibly hypnotized by watching eddies form and molecules flow with KE (for the first time?), has written this statement, >The two samples are not the same system when at the same temperature. referring to eddies in an identical sample water system, when he knows full well that ... it is well known that ...the statement is false. He also knows that, in identical systems, if a cool vessel is heated from T1 to T2, and a warm vessel is cooled from T2 to T1, the images of the eddies will be identical, merely reversed in time. It's a known consequence of conservative forces in an identical particle, continuous universe. Horace, I'm not yet convinced that you wish to challenge all that. Finding a phenomenon like cold fusion which does indeed challenge all that by being discontinuous is as rare as the Michelson - Morley experiment. Your statement does a disservice to cold fusion. John Neergaard From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 07:17:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02162 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:17:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:17:41 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Rpt: Water Transformer Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:17:35 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"s7UIF1.0.lX.LSpLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Tried again with a copper wire (0.6 mm dia) in series with the water coil. As best as I can determine, the fields cancel: Magnets suspended at the end of the core appear to respond to the single water coil, and do not when the copper coil is powered in series [The copper coil is biased against the water coil to achieve this.] >> > > >I just finished another test-run, > > and I detected a small deflection > > of a magnet inside a 2-turn water coil > > powered by DC. > >Miniscule, but there it is. > > >< > > > >I did notice significant joule heating in the tubing, > > approx 2 degrees C over 60 seconds. > >This was measured by digital thermometer laying > > against the tubing, approx 30 cm from either electrode. > >As the coupling was loose, I will check this again. This time the water boiled... > >cheers > > > Once again, you have used no control coil in order to compare the effects > of the 50 mA in a water coil to a similar copper coil. The easiest way to > get a control is to make a simmilarly shaped coil, but of copper, and put > it in series with the water coil. This takes almost no effort. > PLEASE try > to design a control into your experiments. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > With this, I guess I should move on to other experiments, as I see the energy loss due to heating is simply too great to efficiently use this for the kind of power I need to use. From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 07:17:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA02194 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 07:17:43 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Transmutation Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:17:38 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"D6j4Z1.0.FY.NSpLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: There's good reason not to try this, I suppose. If you hit a stable isotope of an element with an electron beam of sufficient energy, it would seem you could get the unstable isotope of the next lower element, which then later re-emit the electrons as it decays. Example: Looking at C12, we should be able to hit this with electrons at 14 Mev potential and see it become B12, which quickly reverts (mostly...) by emission to C12. I realize the conversion of a single gram would need a large amount of current*time. My question is, does this work this way ? Or do we need additional conditions to achieve this ? cheers From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:35:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23725 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:35:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:35:30 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" , "Vortexb-L Eskimo. Com" , "Horace Heffner" , "William Beaty" Subject: vortex problem Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:35:31 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ADpR51.0.go5.IbqLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: Is the problem on my end, or is there a problem with the lists ? Paul From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:45:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA26980 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:45:09 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010106114412.00af5420 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:45:09 -0500 To: vortexb-l eskimo.com, "Vortex-L@Eskimo. Com" , "Vortexb-L Eskimo. Com" , "Horace Heffner" , "William Beaty" From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: vortex problem Cc: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DhiGx1.0.Pb6.LkqLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: A Just started working again? - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:52:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29435 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:52:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:52:57 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Rpt: Water Transformer Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:52:58 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"lSD1j3.0.uB7.frqLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Tried again with a copper wire (0.6 mm dia) in series with the water coil. As best as I can determine, the fields cancel: Magnets suspended at the end of the core appear to respond to the single water coil, and do not when the copper coil is powered in series [The copper coil is biased against the water coil to achieve this.] >> > > >I just finished another test-run, > > and I detected a small deflection > > of a magnet inside a 2-turn water coil > > powered by DC. > >Miniscule, but there it is. > > >< > > > >I did notice significant joule heating in the tubing, > > approx 2 degrees C over 60 seconds. > >This was measured by digital thermometer laying > > against the tubing, approx 30 cm from either electrode. > >As the coupling was loose, I will check this again. This time the water boiled... > >cheers > > > Once again, you have used no control coil in order to compare the effects > of the 50 mA in a water coil to a similar copper coil. The easiest way to > get a control is to make a simmilarly shaped coil, but of copper, and put > it in series with the water coil. This takes almost no effort. > PLEASE try > to design a control into your experiments. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > With this, I guess I should move on to other experiments, as I see the energy loss due to heating is simply too great to efficiently use this for the kind of power I need to use. From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 08:54:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29847 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:54:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 08:54:31 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010106115415.00b08fd8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:54:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hzgLT3.0.GI7.7tqLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. There is very little serious CF literature on line, unfortunately. Most of it is in places like the Journal of Electroanalytical Chemistry. What do you mean by "reproducible"? People use this to mean: 1. Experiments that the author claims he can repeat. 2. Experiments that other experts say they have replicated. 3. Experiments that anyone can reproduce. Palladium heavy water CF falls in category 2. There is nothing in category 3. > Some internet links I emailed . . . We have miscellaneous links at: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/links.html For pure CF only, see: http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html For recent work in Japan, see: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html - Jed From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 12:01:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15993 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:01:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:01:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:07:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer Reply-To: John Schnurer To: "Dr. Clark Assn." cc: Vortex Subject: Syncrometer Science In-Reply-To: <3A5758A8.88041AAA drclark.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_gsOd3.0.mv3.WctLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: O X-Status: Dear Dr. Clark, Please, specifically, what is the scientific basis for the operation of the " Syncrometer"? Please, Specifically, what exactly IS a " Syncrometer " ? From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 13:29:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA12407 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:29:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:29:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:29:24 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Re: vortex problem In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010106114412.00af5420 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"f2bMy3.0.q13.suuLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Just started working again? Nothing changed on this end, and I'm seeing (a few) messages today. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From smartlst mx1.eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:03:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA22673 for billb eskimo.com; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:03:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:03:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:03:07 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect: experiments In-Reply-To: <200101060719121.SM00301 ws42.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QAHKQ1.0.EY5.VOvLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > referring to eddies in an identical sample water system, when he knows full > well that ... it is well known that ...the statement is false. He also knows > that, in identical systems, if a cool vessel is heated from T1 to T2, and a > warm vessel is cooled from T2 to T1, the images of the eddies will be > identical, merely reversed in time. Huh? This isn't right. Turbulence doesn't time-reverse. If heating the sample produces turbulence, cooling it again cannot remove it, instead it produces MORE turbulence. > It's a known consequence of conservative forces in an identical particle, > continuous universe. You'd be right if the thermal convection in the water sample produces laminar flows only (e.g. if laminar flow in a paint can is maintained, you can mix in a droplet of dye, and then "unstir" it again by reversing the motion of your stirring spoon.) > Horace, I'm not yet convinced that you wish to challenge all that. Don't question powerful theory? On the contrary, this forum is for those who are so "unskeptical" that they even dare to question whether dropped rocks ALWAYS fall downwards, and whether two plus two ALWAYS equals four. :) > Finding a phenomenon like cold fusion which does indeed challenge > all that by being discontinuous is as rare as the Michelson - Morley > experiment. Your statement does a disservice to cold fusion. We live in a universe of Complexity, which is filled with 'edge of chaos' phase changes and all sorts of time-irreversible processes. Turbulence is a prime example. Regarding turbulent flows: Big whorls have little whorls, Which feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls, And so on to viscosity. -L. F. Richardson earlier message: On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Horace Heffner wrote: > For example, a test sample consisting of completely still water (if that > were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a DIFFERENT SYSTEM when it reaches > 10 deg. C than water which starts out as a control sample which is > completely still water at 10 deg. C. TURBULENCE, rather than convection, can exist at all dimensional scales, and it's one place where the macro world is directly connected to individual events in the micro world. Maybe the convection affects the microstructure? Recently heated water might be different than "old cold" water not because it is still convecting, but because recent turbulence has caused some sort of crystalline reorganization to occur at the microscopic level. The "lesser whorls" and viscous flow could end up creating microscopic patterns in liquid water's molecule arrays (I think these are called microcrystallites.) When freezing, this water might do weird things, like rapidly freezing as networks of growing filaments or plates, and only later filling in the liquid regions with bulk ice. Maybe heated water initially freezes fast in the form of "anomalous ice," and only later anneals into normal ice, while cold water goes directly (and slowly) into normal ice. If so, there would be strange bends in the heat-flow curves of water as it freezes if it had been recently heated. The speed of sound in the partially-liquid ice would be weird too. As Jed said earlier, comparing the freezing behavior of stirred and unstirred samples might be the way to go. The homeopathy folks talk a lot about the effects that shaking (percussing?) can have on water. Also, here's a weird bit from Russia, from the SSE journal: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/mie/h2odet.html Of course, maybe driving most of the dissolved gas out of the water also does similar weird things at the micro level. One, or the other, or both. Speaking of weird water, here's another claim that could use some replication: magnetic fields altering the conductivity of water: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/phslmag.txt Maybe the above is a real anomaly, or maybe it is caused by induced currents causing metal pipes to corrode electrolytically (and create ions.) I wonder if recently-heated water has a different electrical resistance than old/cold water? Does well stirred water have a different resistance? Something to do this weekend! The freezing of liquids is rumored to be a detector of all sorts of anomalous signals (PK, Sheldrake's morphic signals, torsion waves, etc., etc.) "Water freezing" studies MIGHT lead to accidentally replicating other claimed anomalies besides the Mpemba effect. Chance favors the prepared mind. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:29:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA30015; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:25:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:25:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:33:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: The Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"LLE23.0.rK7.8jvLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello, Vortex has been down a couple days, but that is fine with me because I have been busy. I did write a little essay on the Mpemba effect I wanted to post, but that may not happen for a while. Any corrections appreciated! Here it is: The Mpemba effect Aristotle, Bacon, Descartes, and in 1969, a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba experimentally observed that hot water can freeze faster than cold water. This effect is now called the Mpemba effect because Mpemba's experiments caused some controversy due to the non-intuitive nature of the effect. (See ) The Mpemba effect provides a marvelous concrete example of how important it is to test even the most common sense theories by experiment, and how difficult quantification and a complete characterization of even the simplest results can be. Intuitively, many dismiss the Mpemba effect as impossible, because a hot water sample reaches the starting temperature of a cold water temperature only after some delay, and thus the hot water sample must take longer to freeze. However, it is reasonable that the Mpemba effect is no illusion. There are sound reasons for the effect. A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into a freezer. Therefore, the convection eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than those set up in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so, all else being equal, the water with the most initial eddy currents at a given temperature is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect are not the same system when at the same temperature. One has greater kinetic energy than the other and therefore a greater cooling rate due to convection. For example, a test sample consisting of completely still water (if that were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a DIFFERENT SYSTEM when it reaches 10 deg. C than water which starts out as a control sample which is completely still water at 10 deg. C. In the process of the test sample temperature dropping to the starting temperature of the control sample, some of the heat energy of the test sample is converted to kinetic energy in the form of convection eddy currents. Convection eddy currents are initiated spontaneously when there is a thermal gradient applied to a liquid. A thermal gradient converts some of the heat energy into the kinetic energy associated with the eddy currents. The eddy currents are therefore NOT induced by experimental error, but are necessitated by the mere fact that a thermal gradient must be induced in the water sample to cool it. To cool a sample the boundary of the sample must be made cooler than the interior, and thus a thermal gradient is necessarily formed by any experimental procedure that cools the water. Once currents are established in water, they last a very long time, often for days, even though they become slow and normally undetectable. This can be shown experimentally by stirring water in a stoppered sink bowl in a specific direction and leaving it for a long period. When the stopper is removed a vortex will form as the water runs down the drain. The direction of the vortex will be the direction the water was stirred. It may be possible that, by extreme effort, and doing the experiment in a zero gravity situation, the effect might be nearly eliminated by nearly eliminating the convection eddy current formation due to the applied thermal gradient. However, some convection currents will always be initiated or amplified by the application of a thermal gradient to the sample. It is also extremely difficult to avoid momentarily applying a thermal gradient to the boundary itself, when the experiment is begun, and these gradients will be larger for a hot sample than for a cold sample, all else being equal. Supercooling, the ability of water to drop below the freezing temperature when slowly cooled and very pure and still, should amplify the Mpemba effect. The more convection currents in a sample, the less supercooling should occur. Without considerations of supercooling, water freezes at 0 deg. C, and requires about 79.8 calories per gram to make the transition from liquid to solid state, without any change in temperature involved. Liquid water requires only 1 calorie per gram to change 1 deg. C. It takes as much heat transfer to drop 79.8 deg. C as it does to freeze 0 deg. C water. If the starting temperature is below 79.8 deg. C, then the majority of the energy transfer occurs at 0 deg. C. The rate of heat transfer at 0 deg. C is a critical variable in determining which sample freezes first. Convection currents can dramatically affect heat transfer rates, by exposing large volumes of the liquid directly to the heat transfer boundary, be that the container walls or the ice itself. Slow moving molecules are culled out of the moving stream of water at the water-ice boundary. If the water does not move, then the relatively slower mechanism of thermal conduction is all that remains to effect the freezing. If the heat transfer rate at 0 deg. C is only doubled by the increased convection, then water with an initial temperature of less than about 39.9 deg. C will freeze at about the same time as water initially at 0 deg. C. An almost 40 deg. advantage is given to the hotter water. There should not be much doubt that the observers of the effect, Mpemba, Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes were correct, that at least under certain conditions hot water freezes faster than cold, all else being equal, but only experiment tells the tale for sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:38:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32249; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:31:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:31:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:31:50 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Re: vortex problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QIvTx.0.ot7.OpvLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, William Beaty wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Just started working again? > > Nothing changed on this end, and I'm seeing (a few) messages today. I just looked at the escribe archive and saw that messages stopped back on thursday! But I'm seeing them at my end (for friday and sat.) Earlier I added a line to the vortex config file that puts "[VX:]" at the front of all the subject lines, then commented it out. I don't know if this screwed things up (the message "[VX:] test, ignore" appeared, and it had lots of messages after it.) I've turned off that whole feature, so maybe this message will make it through? Below are the subject lines of messages I see but which aren't appearing on escribe. Is everyone seeing these? or seeing none of these? 939 Jan 4 Horace Heffner (2,469) Re: Mpemba effect 940 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (1,589) where is vortexB? 941 Jan 4 Adam Cox (1,619) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 942 Jan 4 Jed Rothwell (1,865) Re: Reproducibile CF papers 943 Jan 4 hank scudder (3,242) Re: rule change? Or vote? 944 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (1,809) forbid political discussions? 945 Jan 4 George Holz (2,250) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 946 Jan 4 Edmund Storms (2,457) Re: Reproducibile CF papers 947 Jan 5 John Berry (13,537) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 948 Jan 5 John Berry (6,277) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 949 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (16,250) Mitch taking time off 950 Jan 5 John Schnurer (5,083) Re: rule change? Or vote? 951 Jan 5 John Schnurer (4,319) MEG build and COP bigger than 10 (fwd 952 Jan 5 Scott Little (1,537) pH measurements! 953 Jan 5 John Fields (2,884) Re: Some Final Remarks 954 Jan 5 To: vortex-L eskim (11,429) "Channeling" Nicky T. 955 Jan 5 Frederick Sparber (951) Re:Test 956 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (1,811) Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 2] 957 Jan 5 John Schnurer (2,423) John Berry ..Re: Thought Experiment - 958 Jan 5 Charles Ford (1,939) Re: Rpt: Water Transformer 959 Jan 5 Horace Heffner (6,095) The Mpemba effect 960 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (3,296) Re: Vortex B 961 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (1,068) Re: Vortex B - oops! 962 Jan 5 George Holz (2,502) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 963 Dec 25 Akira Kawasaki (4,132) [Fwd: What's New for Jan 05, 2001] 964 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (1,995) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircra 965 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (1,381) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircra 966 Jan 5 To: vortex-l eskim (895) test, ignore 967 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (2,949) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for Aircra 968 Jan 5 Norman Horwood (1,369) Testing 969 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (4,315) Re: pH help, please 970 Jan 5 Charles Ford (2,571) Re: Reproducibile CF papers 971 Jan 5 Mitchell Jones (16,855) Re: rule change? Or vote? 972 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (1,691) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 973 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (1,211) Re: rule change? Or vote? 974 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (2,586) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy 975 Jan 6 erev4 yahoo.com (1,737) Re: Mpemba effect 976 Jan 6 xplorer (2,517) RE: Rpt: Water Transformer 977 Jan 6 xplorer (1,709) Transmutation 978 Jan 6 xplorer (1,242) vortex problem 979 Jan 6 Jed Rothwell (1,241) Re: vortex problem 980 Jan 6 xplorer (2,516) RE: Rpt: Water Transformer 981 Jan 6 Jed Rothwell (1,811) Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 3] 982 Jan 6 John Schnurer (1,106) Syncrometer Science 983 Jan 6 To: Vortex-L Eskim (1,462) Re: vortex problem 984 Jan 6 To: vortex-l eskim (5,937) Re: Mpemba effect: experiments ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 14:47:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05249; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:46:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 14:46:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:54:59 -0900 To: William Beaty , "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: vortex problem Resent-Message-ID: <"z-yez1.0.xH1.71wLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 2:31 PM 1/6/1, William Beaty wrote: [snip] >Earlier I added a line to the vortex config file that puts "[VX:]" at the >front of all the subject lines, then commented it out. I don't know if >this screwed things up (the message "[VX:] test, ignore" appeared, and it >had lots of messages after it.) I've turned off that whole feature, so >maybe this message will make it through? I have not seen the messages below. Vortex stopped working for me on thursday, except oddly, the messages I sent did not bounce. When I tried www.eskimo.com there was no response, so I assumed the ISP was down. Is there any way to re-post the following items? I don't think I was the only one in the dark. > >Below are the subject lines of messages I see but which aren't >appearing on escribe. Is everyone seeing these? or seeing none of these? > > 939 Jan 4 Horace Heffner (2,469) Re: Mpemba effect > 940 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (1,589) where is vortexB? > 941 Jan 4 Adam Cox (1,619) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 942 Jan 4 Jed Rothwell (1,865) Re: Reproducibile CF papers > 943 Jan 4 hank scudder (3,242) Re: rule change? Or vote? > 944 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (1,809) forbid political discussions? > 945 Jan 4 George Holz (2,250) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 946 Jan 4 Edmund Storms (2,457) Re: Reproducibile CF papers > 947 Jan 5 John Berry (13,537) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 948 Jan 5 John Berry (6,277) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 949 Jan 4 To: vortex-l eskim (16,250) Mitch taking time off > 950 Jan 5 John Schnurer (5,083) Re: rule change? Or vote? > 951 Jan 5 John Schnurer (4,319) MEG build and COP bigger than >10 (fwd > 952 Jan 5 Scott Little (1,537) pH measurements! > 953 Jan 5 John Fields (2,884) Re: Some Final Remarks > 954 Jan 5 To: vortex-L eskim (11,429) "Channeling" Nicky T. > 955 Jan 5 Frederick Sparber (951) Re:Test > 956 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (1,811) Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 2] > 957 Jan 5 John Schnurer (2,423) John Berry ..Re: Thought >Experiment - > 958 Jan 5 Charles Ford (1,939) Re: Rpt: Water Transformer > 959 Jan 5 Horace Heffner (6,095) The Mpemba effect > 960 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (3,296) Re: Vortex B > 961 Jan 5 Jed Rothwell (1,068) Re: Vortex B - oops! > 962 Jan 5 George Holz (2,502) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 963 Dec 25 Akira Kawasaki (4,132) [Fwd: What's New for Jan 05, 2001] > 964 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (1,995) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for >Aircra > 965 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (1,381) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for >Aircra > 966 Jan 5 To: vortex-l eskim (895) test, ignore > 967 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (2,949) Re: HSG: Re: Hydrino Power for >Aircra > 968 Jan 5 Norman Horwood (1,369) Testing > 969 Jan 6 Robin van Spaandon (4,315) Re: pH help, please > 970 Jan 5 Charles Ford (2,571) Re: Reproducibile CF papers > 971 Jan 5 Mitchell Jones (16,855) Re: rule change? Or vote? > 972 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (1,691) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 973 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (1,211) Re: rule change? Or vote? > 974 Jan 5 Michael Schaffer (2,586) Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy > 975 Jan 6 erev4 yahoo.com (1,737) Re: Mpemba effect > 976 Jan 6 xplorer (2,517) RE: Rpt: Water Transformer > 977 Jan 6 xplorer (1,709) Transmutation > 978 Jan 6 xplorer (1,242) vortex problem > 979 Jan 6 Jed Rothwell (1,241) Re: vortex problem > 980 Jan 6 xplorer (2,516) RE: Rpt: Water Transformer > 981 Jan 6 Jed Rothwell (1,811) Re: Reproducibile CF papers [COPY 3] > 982 Jan 6 John Schnurer (1,106) Syncrometer Science > 983 Jan 6 To: Vortex-L Eskim (1,462) Re: vortex problem > 984 Jan 6 To: vortex-l eskim (5,937) Re: Mpemba effect: experiments > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 15:31:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA20486; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:26:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:26:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:26:43 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: vortex missing messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6gMBp3.0.005.rcwLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 2:31 PM 1/6/1, William Beaty wrote: > [snip] > >Earlier I added a line to the vortex config file that puts "[VX:]" at the > >front of all the subject lines, then commented it out. I don't know if > >this screwed things up (the message "[VX:] test, ignore" appeared, and it > >had lots of messages after it.) I've turned off that whole feature, so > >maybe this message will make it through? > > I have not seen the messages below. Vortex stopped working for me on > thursday, That was it then. I did make a change, but that was much earlier. I screwed it up, but for some reason *I* received all those messages, yet vortex-L didn't send them out. Aha! X-Diagnostic: diverted to list owner - possible virus. I put in a "virus catcher" as well, after testing it on freenrg-L. But that means freenrg-L must also be dead too. Yep, it is. I receive the messages, but nobody else does. > Is there any way to re-post the following items? I could do it, but then they all will appear as coming from William Beaty. I've snipped that chunk of messages and posted it here, if people want to read them or retreive/forward ones which were lost: http://www.amasci.com/weird/temp/vtemp.txt I'm going to go and forward my own missing messages to vortex-L again. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 15:33:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21224; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:29:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:29:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: forbid political discussions? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hxgid2.0.YB5.8fwLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > Scott > I agree, but would like to allow a few short of toppic messages at > times. Many are interesting, such as Jed's and Horace's. "off topic"? How about this: DISCUSSING POLITICS IS FORBIDDEN. However, single messages which directly involve the politics of unorthodox science are tolerated. Vortex-L subscribers must not reply to such messages. If people want to discuss any sort of politics, they should go to vortexB. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 15:44:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA21568; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:31:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:31:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Mitch taking time off Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Otnbh1.0.rG5.xgwLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Mitchell Jones wrote: > Anyway, I've said all I care to say about this silliness for awhile. I have > other fish to fry, and so I will not be checking out this group again for > several days. One last thing. Earlier I asked whether you'd read Feynman's paper about the ethics of scientists. That section is attached below. "In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another." Debate is about persuasion, and a debater who follows a philosophy of utterly honest 'Scientific Integrity' is an incompetant fool who lets his enemies see all his weak points, and who helps them in their attack. But fortunately, Persuasion is not Science. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ...there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school--we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty--a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid--not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked--to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated. Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can--if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong--to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. There is also a more subtle problem. When you have put a lot of ideas together to make an elaborate theory, you want to make sure, when explaining what it fits, that those things it fits are not just the things that gave you the idea for the theory; but that the finished theory makes something else come out right, in addition. In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another. The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with advertising. Last night I heard that Wesson oil doesn't soak through food. Well, that's true. It's not dishonest; but the thing I'm talking about is not just a matter of not being dishonest; it's a matter of scientific integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oils soak through food, if operated at a certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they all will--including Wesson oil. So it's the implication which has been conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have to deal with. We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science. A great deal of their difficulty is, of course, the difficulty of the subject and the inapplicability of the scientific method to the subject. Nevertheless, it should be remarked that this is not the only difficulty. That's why the planes don't land--but they don't land. We have learned a lot from experience about how to handle some of the ways we fool ourselves. One example: Millikan measured the charge on an electron by an experiment with falling oil drops, and got an answer which we now know not to be quite right. It's a little bit off because he had the incorrect value for the viscosity of air. It's interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of an electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bit bigger than Millikan's, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher. Why didn't they discover the new number was higher right away? It's a thing that scientists are ashamed of--this history--because it's apparent that people did things like this: When they got a number that was too high above Millikan's, they thought something must be wrong--and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number close to Millikan's value they didn't look so hard. And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that. We've learned those tricks nowadays, and now we don't have that kind of a disease. But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves--of having utter scientific integrity--is, I'm sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of. We just hope you've caught on by osmosis The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that. I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen. For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of his work were. "Well," I said, "there aren't any." He said, "Yes, but then we won't get support for more research of this kind." I think that's kind of dishonest. If you're representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you're doing-- and if they don't support you under those circumstances, then that's their decision. One example of the principle is this: If you've made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish BOTH kinds of results. I say that's also important in giving certain types of government advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it would be better in some other state. If you don't publish such a result, it seems to me you're not giving scientific advice. You're being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don't publish at all. That's not giving scientific advice. Other kinds of errors are more characteristic of poor science. When I was at Cornell, I often talked to the people in the psychology department. One of the students told me she wanted to do an experiment that went something like this--it had been found by others that under certain circumstances, X, rats did something, A. She was curious as to whether, if she changed the circumstances to Y, they would still do A. So her proposal was to do the experiment under circumstances Y and see if they still did A. I explained to her that it was necessary first to repeat in her laboratory the experiment of the other person--to do it under condition X to see if she could also get result A, and then change to Y and see if A changed. Then she would know the the real difference was the thing she thought she had under control. She was very delighted with this new idea, and went to her professor. And his reply was, no, you cannot do that, because the experiment has already been done and you would be wasting time. This was in about 1947 or so, and it seems to have been the general policy then to not try to repeat psychological experiments, but only to change the conditions and see what happened. Nowadays, there's a certain danger of the same thing happening, even in the famous field of physics. I was shocked to hear of an experiment being done at the big accelerator at the National Accelerator Laboratory, where a person used deuterium. In order to compare his heavy hydrogen results to what might happen with light hydrogen, he had to use data from someone else's experiment on light hydrogen, which was done on different apparatus. When asked why, he said it was because he couldn't get time on the program (because there's so little time and it's such expensive apparatus) to do the experiment with light hydrogen on this apparatus because there wouldn't be any new result. And so the men in charge of programs at NAL are so anxious for new results, in order to get more money to keep the thing going for public relations purposes, they are destroying--possibly--the value of the experiments themselves, which is the whole purpose of the thing. It is often hard for the experimenters there to complete their work as their scientific integrity demands. All experiments in psychology are not of this type, however. For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on--with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before. The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell. He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell. Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers that clues that the rat is really using-- not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running. I looked up the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running the rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic example of cargo cult science. Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms--and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiements--they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the para-psychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated--that you can do again and get the same effect--statistically, even. They run a million rats--no, it's people this time--they do a lot of things are get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don't get it any more. And now you find a man saying that is is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science? This man also speaks about a new institution, in a talk in which he was resigning as Director of the Institute of Parapsychology. And, in telling people what to do next, he says that one of things they have to do is be sure the only train students who have shown their ability to get PSI results to an acceptable extent--not to waste their time on those ambitious and interested students who get only chance results. It is very dangerous to have such a policy in teaching--to teach students only how to get certain results, rather than how to do an experiment with scientific integrity. So I have just one wish for you--the good luck to be somewhere where you are free to maintain the kind of integrity I have described, and where you do not feel forced by a need to maintain your position in the organization, or financial support, or so on, to lose your integrity. May you have that freedom. -Richard Feynman http://www.physics.brocku.ca/etc/cargo_cult_science.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 15:50:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25867; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:44:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 15:44:30 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010106182401.00a4ed80 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 18:51:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: vortex problem In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Eq22J2.0.5K6.UtwLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >I have not seen the messages below. Vortex stopped working for me on >thursday, except oddly, the messages I sent did not bounce. When I tried >www.eskimo.com there was no response, so I assumed the ISP was down. Is >there any way to re-post the following items? I don't think I was the only >one in the dark. Gnorts Horace, Bill, and what remains of the rest of Vortex, I didn't get any of those messages either, and I think that there is something more than a simple listserve error at Eskimo. I tried to tell Bill about this once before in private e-mail, but he never responded. I've had a several Vortex messages in the past bounce, and I always save all the headers. The headers all said "subscriber UNKNOWN", and a copy went to the address of Gary Steckly at cyberus.com. I think some of us are having our e-mail snagged and rerouted. I also discovered yesterday that my C:\WINDOWS\Temporary Internet File folder is not allowing me to view the contents. There are over 300 files in there, but neither Explorer nor DOS can see them. It is like someone has mounted a "blackhole" drive or something on my machine. I did manage to find the files, and there are a lot of .js files in there, but I am just now discovering them, renaming them, and taking a look at them. If you are sending mail in HTML format, I would urge you to switch back to ASCII sends only. Also take a look at all your .ini files to make sure that all the MAPI stuff is turned off, and turn off the "Use Microsoft Viewers" option in Eudora. I've found numerous Playboy screen savers, vbs scripts, wsh, v and HTA files, and whatnot in my attachment directory this last week. They've mostly been coming from Vortex and FreeNRG. A moratorium on any attachments might also be good idea, and if you want to post a link, go back to the old method of writing it out in ASCII, rather than sending the attached shortcut file. As I mentioned before, I just got a "new" machine with Win98 installed, and all of this kind of caught me by surprise. I used to only worry about com, exe, bat, pif and dll files, as they were the only things that would run on my old machine. Now, there are over 50 different types of executables that run on the newer Windoze versions. I also caught my machine three times trying to silently dial out with a network adaptor protocol. I have no officially scheduled tasks. After the third time I caught it, I just unplugged the phone line. I've also found numerous logs being kept that record my login password. Somebody is getting nasty. I went back to drinking coffee. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:08:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA00422; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:01:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:01:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:00:59 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: "Channeling" Nicky T. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7gdta1.0.66._6xLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, Dustin Soodak wrote: > But this would imply that if you a light-bulb and gave it a modest > velocity away from you(faster than the speeds of any of the individual > molecules in the light bulb), you would no longer see it! But now we're talking about something VERY COOL: collective frequency patterns of groups of coupled oscillators. This is hidden within QM physics, in Solid State statistical concepts (Fermi surface and similar stuff.) But if we ignore the textbook concepts and instead look at atoms as being like independant "crystal radios", something extremely interesting is revealed. It's something that's not specifically discussed in physics textbooks, as far as I know. It has direct engineering applications. Check it out: SINGLE atoms are like conventional radio transmitters and receivers: if their tuning doesn't match, then the "receiver" cannot hear the "transmitter". Ah, but GROUPS of coupled atoms are a little bit like spread spectrum radio: when stimulated, they give out multispectral "white light". On the other hand, this is not at all like SS radio, because a fixed group of atoms puts out a weird multi-peak signal, and a distant but IDENTICAL group of atoms... WILL BE RESONANT, and will receive that strange multi-peak signal by the "energy sucking" resonance effect. It's as if a radio transmitter had five tuning knobs and ten "coupling" knobs, and its signal could only be strongly received by a distant receiver if the fifteen knobs on the receiver were set to the exact same setting as those on the transmitter. Change one setting a bit, and the receiver would go silent. You'd only receive a tiny "off peak" style of nonresonant signal. I suspect that this is what N. Tesla was talking about when he claimed to have an "unbreakable" radio cryptography system back at the turn of the century. It's a "molecule analogy" radio system. The five tuning knobs mentioned above are the atoms in a five-atom molecule. So, for a secure transmitter, use FIFTY coupled oscillators and hundreds of coupling adjustments, then tune an identical receiver to the same pattern (so it's in "bizarro-resonance" with the transmitter). Now transmit. The receiver will respond very strongly, just like the "energy sucking" mode of a crystal radio. Now VARY one of the transmitter adjustments slightly, and the signal at the receiver will vary hugely as the resonance is spoiled, so you can communicate via a sort of "FM radio" effect. But only the properly configured receiver is sensitive to this "FM" change, and anyone who tries to listen in will hear nothing but constant, apparently- unmodulated broadband noise. This is "geometrical" tuning, where the "virtual shape" of the receiver must match the "shape" of the transmitter, and similar "shapes" can communicate by a nasty-complicated signal which looks like plain old white noise. Sounds more like Sympathetic Magic than physics, eh? If you think THAT's cool, then how about this: molecules which can sense each other at a distance. Go back to the crystal radios: hang two identical crystal radios on the ends of long threads, then "illuminate" them with a transmitter tuned to their frequency. They will resonate and therefore oscillate strongly. But the synchronous local AC b-fields from the oscillators' inductors will cause physical forces to arise between them. Do they attract each other? Repel? I'll have to try it and see. If they attract, then boy do I ever have something cool on my hands: biochem key/lock bonding forces which extend FAR from the active sites on molecules. If the two crystal radios are pulled together in my above thought experiment, yet when they are DEtuned the attraction force vanishes... then we have an analogy for bonding in biological molecules, where the "key" is electromagnetically attracted by the "lock" at quite a distance away, but only if the tuned resonance is there. Seriously, I just about soiled myself when this idea appeared in my head a few months back! :) But it was too big for my brain, so I forgot all about it until now. Now visualise two separate but identical arrays of coupled oscillators which are being illuminated by white noise from the environment. They will create local AC fields and PULL UPON each other. If these "oscillators" are really the active sites of two separate biomolecules, then I've just solved the great riddle of how the "keys" can find the "locks" in biochem, despite the great distances, and despite the immense jostling of thermal motion. They are like crypto-coded AC electromagnets magnets, where the "magnets" attract each other only if the "codes" in each one are identical. Ribosome says "hey guanine guanine guanine", and guanine comes running from avar, and is snapped into place at the end of the protein molecule being assembled. In conventional QM terms, I guess we would call it "attraction via local molecular virtual photon fields." Is this cool or what?!!! And not only could biology be using this for selective longrange bonding, it could also use it for communication between distant molecules without using nerve-fiber "cables." When illuminated with thermal white noise, one molecule can affect a distant molecule if they are tuned to resonance. Globs of independant molecules could actually be quantum computer arrays with an "invisible nervous system" made of the above thermally-driven coded-comms channels connecting them, so biological tissue becomes like a "brain-stuff" made out of Cray Supercomputers, and maybe plants DO have nervous systems after all, and maybe Amoeba and Paramecia behavior is just what it looks like, and these organisms are just as intelligent as cockroaches and snails! Heh. But maybe the dangling crystal radios repel each other, and my analogy is all wrong. > The idea about photons not really existing except as waves is a fairly > accurate conceptual tool though. > > I've actually seen a similar idea in solid-state physics: The > transmition of sound can be modelled by considering each atom to be a > simple harmonic oscillator(like a pendulum) that is weakly connected to > its neighbors. Bingo! In classical physics, that's "flowing heat energy." In QM, it's "acoustic mode thermal radiation" (as opposed to IR light.) And the quantized acoustic frequencies in phonon mechanics are not conceptually different than the quantized IR light frequencies emitted by hot matter. If sound waves are "real", then light waves are "real", and phonons/photons are something akin to experimental artifacts. If we should choose to steer awy from "photon think" for some reason, we can crash headlong into RF engineering concepts such as the above, and possibly find that they have direct application to atoms and chemistry. "Atoms are not radios" is the name of the blinders we normally wear. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:14:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA02998; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:06:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:06:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:06:37 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mpemba effect: experiments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PU39U2.0.Vk.GCxLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > referring to eddies in an identical sample water system, when he knows full > well that ... it is well known that ...the statement is false. He also knows > that, in identical systems, if a cool vessel is heated from T1 to T2, and a > warm vessel is cooled from T2 to T1, the images of the eddies will be > identical, merely reversed in time. Huh? This isn't right. Turbulence doesn't time-reverse. If heating the sample produces turbulence, cooling it again cannot remove it, instead it produces MORE turbulence. > It's a known consequence of conservative forces in an identical particle, > continuous universe. You'd be right if the thermal convection in the water sample produces laminar flows only (e.g. if laminar flow in a can of paint is maintained, you can mix in a droplet of dye, and then "unstir" it again by reversing the motion of your stirring spoon.) > Horace, I'm not yet convinced that you wish to challenge all that. Don't question authority? On the contrary, this forum is for those who are so "unskeptical" that, when anomalous evidence is seen, they even dare to question whether dropped rocks ALWAYS fall downwards, and whether two plus two ALWAYS equals four. :) > Finding a phenomenon like cold fusion which does indeed challenge > all that by being discontinuous is as rare as the Michelson - Morley > experiment. Your statement does a disservice to cold fusion. We live in a universe of Complexity, which is filled with 'edge of chaos' phase changes and all sorts of time-irreversible processes. Turbulence is a prime example. Regarding turbulent flows: Big whorls have little whorls, Which feed on their velocity, And little whorls have lesser whorls, And so on to viscosity. -L. F. Richardson earlier message: On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Horace Heffner wrote: > For example, a test sample consisting of completely still water (if that > were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a DIFFERENT SYSTEM when it reaches > 10 deg. C than water which starts out as a control sample which is > completely still water at 10 deg. C. TURBULENCE, rather than convection, can exist at all dimensional scales, and it's one place where the macro world is directly connected to individual events in the micro world. Maybe the convection affects the microstructure? Recently heated water might be different than "old cold" water not because it is still convecting, but because recent turbulence has caused some sort of crystalline reorganization to occur at the microscopic level. The "lesser whorls" and viscous flow could end up creating microscopic patterns in liquid water's molecule arrays (I think these are called microcrystallites.) When freezing, this water might do weird things, like rapidly freezing as networks of growing filaments or plates, and only later filling in the liquid regions with bulk ice. Maybe heated water initially freezes fast in the form of "anomalous ice," and only later anneals into normal ice, while cold water goes directly (and slowly) into normal ice. If so, there would be strange bends in the heat-flow curves of water as it freezes if it had been recently heated. The speed of sound in the partially-liquid ice would be weird too. As Jed said earlier, comparing the freezing behavior of stirred and unstirred samples might be the way to go. The homeopathy folks talk a lot about the effects that shaking (percussing?) can have on water. Also, here is a weird bit from Russia, from the SSE journal: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/mie/h2odet.html Of course, maybe driving most of the dissolved gas out of the water also does similar weird things at the micro level. One, or the other, or both. Speaking of weird water, here's another claim that could use some replication: magnetic fields altering the conductivity of water: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/phslmag.txt Maybe the above is a real anomaly, or maybe it is caused by induced currents causing metal pipes to corrode electrolytically (and create ions in the water.) I wonder if recently-heated water has a different electrical resistance than old/cold water? Does well stirred water have a different resistance? Something to do this weekend! The freezing of liquids is rumored to be a detector of all sorts of anomalous signals (PK, Sheldrake's morphic signals, torsion waves, etc., etc.) "Water freezing" studies MIGHT lead to accidentally replicating other claimed anomalies besides the Mpemba effect. Chance favors the prepared mind, and to become sensitive to seeing anomalies, the "preparation" is to think insane thoughts. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:14:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA04869; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:10:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:10:57 -0800 Message-ID: <008401c07846$4dbf4b40$c4b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010106182401.00a4ed80 pop3.atlantic.net> Subject: Re: vortex problem Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:08:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0rftW1.0.wB1.HGxLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Huffman To: Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: vortex problem Same here, Knuke. But I can't speak for the rerouting phenomenon. Regards, Frederick > > Gnorts Horace, Bill, and what remains of the rest of Vortex, > > I didn't get any of those messages either, and I think that there is > something more than a simple listserve error at Eskimo. I tried to tell > Bill about this once before in private e-mail, but he never > responded. I've had a several Vortex messages in the past bounce, and I > always save all the headers. The headers all said "subscriber UNKNOWN", > and a copy went to the address of Gary Steckly at cyberus.com. I think > some of us are having our e-mail snagged and rerouted. > > I also discovered yesterday that my C:\WINDOWS\Temporary Internet File > folder is not allowing me to view the contents. There are over 300 files > in there, but neither Explorer nor DOS can see them. It is like someone > has mounted a "blackhole" drive or something on my machine. I did manage > to find the files, and there are a lot of .js files in there, but I am just > now discovering them, renaming them, and taking a look at them. > > If you are sending mail in HTML format, I would urge you to switch back to > ASCII sends only. Also take a look at all your .ini files to make sure > that all the MAPI stuff is turned off, and turn off the "Use Microsoft > Viewers" option in Eudora. I've found numerous Playboy screen savers, vbs > scripts, wsh, v and HTA files, and whatnot in my attachment directory this > last week. They've mostly been coming from Vortex and FreeNRG. > > A moratorium on any attachments might also be good idea, and if you want to > post a link, go back to the old method of writing it out in ASCII, rather > than sending the attached shortcut file. > > As I mentioned before, I just got a "new" machine with Win98 installed, and > all of this kind of caught me by surprise. I used to only worry about com, > exe, bat, pif and dll files, as they were the only things that would run > on my old machine. Now, there are over 50 different types of executables > that run on the newer Windoze versions. > > I also caught my machine three times trying to silently dial out with a > network adaptor protocol. I have no officially scheduled tasks. After the > third time I caught it, I just unplugged the phone line. I've also found > numerous logs being kept that record my login password. Somebody is > getting nasty. > > I went back to drinking coffee. > > Knuke > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 16:58:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA22691; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:53:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:53:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 16:53:16 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Success in scientific theory (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"i4bzb1.0.SY5.-txLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ROFL!!!!!!!!! The following message just appeared on PHYS-L. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 10:51:16 -0800 From: "Carl C. Gaither" Reply-To: "phys-l lists.nau.edu: Forum for Physics Educators" To: PHYS-L lists.nau.edu Subject: Success in scientific theory Hello All-- I came across this quote by H. Dingle (1937) in his book Through Science to Philosophy (p. 75). "Success in scientific theory is won, not by rigid adherence to the rules of logic, but by bold speculation which dares even to break those rules if by that means new regions of interest may be opened up." I was wondering if, after nearly 60 years, the young Ph.D's on the whole have not been trained to the "rigid adherence to the rules of logic" and are therefore less inclined to speculation. Has the US produced a generation of Ph.D's who cannot develop an idea of their own but when provided an idea can work that idea ruthlessly? Are there now as many thinkers in physics as there was a century or a half century ago or are the physicists of today just 'doers'? -- Carl C. Gaither and Alma E. Cavazos-Gaither http://www.angelfire.com/tx/StatBook/ Authors of: Statistically Speaking: Quotations about Statistics and Probability Physically Speaking: Quotations about Physics and Astronomy Mathematically Speaking: Quotations about Mathematics Practically Speaking: Quotations about Engineering and Architecture Medically Speaking: Quotations about Dentistry, Medicine and Nursing Scientifically Speaking: Quotations about Science Naturally Speaking: Quotations about Biology, Botany, Zoology and Nature From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 17:21:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA30838; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:14:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 17:14:10 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 19:13:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: rule change? Or vote? Resent-Message-ID: <"14dwd2.0.lX7.XByLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A [The message that follows was apparently one of those caught in the foul-up. It was originally sent on Friday at 22:46.] ***{Well, the "other fish" got "fried" in 1 day, so I'm back sooner than expected. (I expected that particular project to spill over well into the weekend, minimum, and wouldn't have been surprised if it consumed Monday as well, but, shock of shocks, it didn't. :-) --MJ}*** >The only time I've ever removed someone from a list is on FREENRG-L for >repeated direct violations of rule #2 (no insults.) All of my lists are >experiments, and Vortex-L does not have an anti-flamer rule. This was >intentional. I wanted to see how the "online community" would be >different if the "community" sets its own standards for behavior, rather >than having them entirely imposed by the moderator. > >After each of several past flamewars on vortex ***{Whether your dispute with me is or is not a "flamewar" is of no more importance than the question of whether the character-related pejoratives that we have been exchanging are best described as "namecalling," "insults," or "corrective feedback." What matters is this: such exchanges cannot happen if nobody fires the first shot--which means: if we all stick to *impersonal* and substantive discussions about events of interest, with a primary focus on anomalous scientific claims, these troubled waters will be avoided. They will *not* be avoided, however, so long as the "moderator" reserves the right to impugn the character of a subscriber, call it "corrective feedback," and, when the aggrieved party returns fire, to dismiss that response as "namecalling," "insults," etc. Whether you like it or not, you are *not* the moral superior of the rest of us, and your "corrective feedback" can be wrong. Therefore, in reason, you should accept the fact that when you attempt to make a public example of someone, your reasoning may be criticized by the person you attempted to pillory and by those who agree with him, and in the process you may discover that *your* behavior, motivations, character, etc., have been called into question. "Corrective feedback," like it or not, is a two-edged sword. --MJ}*** , I asked if people here >wouldn't prefer that this forum have a rule like the freenrg-L rule#2 (see >below). In the past, everyone here wanted the freedom instead, and >tolerated the occasional flamer to get it. This worked because being >temporarily banished to vortexB almost always caused the misbehaving >subscriber to either change their behavior or to leave the group. ***{You continue to natter on as if it is a given that the subscriber--i.e., me--is the one who has misbehaved, despite the palpably obvious fact, demonstrated by extensive point-by-point rebuttals which you have ignored, that *you* are the one who has misbehaved. --MJ}*** >But how can the "community" set its own standards? By complaining >directly to the misbehaving subscribers, so "community pressure" would get >the message across. ***{What you call "community pressure" is, in fact, merely the oozing forth from some others in this group of the same immorality that is manifest in you. No reasonable person gives a hoot in hell about such nonsense. Morality requires that we do nothing which we sense to be wrong, until and unless those feelings of wrongness have been overcome by logic and evidence. To bow to "community pressure" before being rationally convinced that one has erred is to choose evil, and, over time, causes the person to become evil. Here is a description of the process which I quoted earlier in a reply to Scott, but which is equally appropriate here: "...the social reasoner is a person who chose to surrender the creation of his personality to the thoughts, values, and judgments of others. Over a period of many years, he repeatedly chose to adopt beliefs and personality traits that he sensed were wrong, because he perceived them to be socially expedient. His fatal error lay in his failure to realize that each such act drained off a tiny portion of his self respect until, in the end, nothing remained but a feeling of self-loathing. Thus if he finally achieved the material success which he had sought, he discovered that he could not enjoy it. He discovered, instead, that he was miserable and unhappy." "While he does not understand, intellectually, what has happened to him, he nevertheless feels its emotional effects. He feels dead inside, and he feels an overpowering fear and hatred, welling up from deep within himself, whenever he encounters people who, psychologically, are alive. People who are self-assertive, people who reason and form their own opinions, people who argue, people who don't seem to care whether they fit in--he hates them all." "In other times and places, men like him, acting on feelings like his, had filled the world with bloodshed and slaughter. They did not merely hate people who were psychologically alive: they killed them. They stretched them on the rack; they burned out their eyes with red hot irons; they stripped the flesh from their still living bodies..." "The point is simple: the social reasoner feels a deep seated emotional need to see self-assertiveness beaten down. He hates those who had the courage to use their own minds and rely on their own judgments, and he wants to see them miserable and unhappy. Such experiences seem to justify the ease with which he allowed the castles of his own soul to be overrun. Every time he sees such persons beaten down, his inner pain is eased. Such sights suggest that, in truth, there was no other way, that his lifelong policy of surrender and self-destruction was correct, that his own inner misery is, in fact, unavoidable." [*The Dogs of Capitalism*, pg. 296] I believe that the above words contain the most important *practical* insight in human existence--to wit: they explain what a person must do, if he is render his own happiness possible. (And, as a free bonus, they explain what evil is and how it arises.) --Mitchell Jones}*** Rational people respond to complaints from the >"neighbors." ***{I responded by explaining, in vast detail, why I felt that your criticisms were wrong, and you made no effort to overcome those arguments. Result: it is now crystal clear that what you really want is for me to give in despite my strong sense that you are wrong--which means: you want me to join you and several other morally challenged members of this group, and choose evil. Well, here's a flash for you: it ain't gonna happen. If you want to change my behavior, you will have to convince me that I am wrong; if you want to convince me that I am wrong, you will have to overturn my reasons for thinking that it is *you* who is wrong; and if you want to overturn my reasons, you will have to address them directly, rather than respond to caricatures that you have concocted and substituted in their place. --MJ}*** And if instead they are so defensive that they ignore all >complaints? ***{It is you and your little claque of supporters who are defensive and who ignore feedback. I have been calm and reasonable in my postings on this topic from the beginning, and, truth be told, I find this business to be quite amusing. (My wife and I have been chuckling about these goings on for days.) Here, therefore, are your choices: (1) You can respond to my critricisms rather than to your fantasy caricatures of those criticisms--which means: go back and quote my actual words and respond to them. If you do that, then we can play this out, and see if you have a shred of a basis for anything that you have said. (2) You can continue wasting my time by posting non-specific insinuations and pejorative speculations about my character, while snipping out and ignoring every specific thing I say in response. If you do that, I will put you in my killfile. (3) You can stop yammering on about this and we will simply agree to disagree. (4) You can kick me out of the group. For those who may wonder why I don't simply unsubscribe, the answer is simple: it is wrong to give up on people before they have revealed themselves, and seen themselves, with stark clarity, and have openly and unambiguously chosen the wrong path. I therefore respond to interpersonal conflict by striving to render the alternatives crystal clear. Rejection is an act I leave to others. Clarity is the only weapon I need, because darkness flees before the light. Result: evil people automatically exclude themselves from my life. (It's like magic! :-) --Mitchell Jones}*** Then subscribers must complain to the moderator, who issues >warnings. That's where it breaks down: if I take no action other than >delivering warnings, then the "community standards" are not enforced, and >anyone can act any damned way that they please simply by "writing their >own report card" while dreaming up reasons to ignore all outside >criticism. ***{I repeat: it is you who believes that he can act any damned way he pleases; it is you who, by answering to no one, places himself in the position of writing his own report card; and it is you who is snipping out and ignoring criticism on the basis of "dreamed up" reasons. --MJ}*** >Should vortex-L have a ban on "taking insult" and "returning insults?" >(see FREENRG #2 below). ***{How about a ban on *giving* "insults"--i.e., a ban on introducing personal pejoratives into a discussion? The answer: blank out. --MJ}*** >There's a common alternative on listserves which has been mentioned >several times here: on a case by case basis, expel misbehaving members by >holding a vote. > >Mitch quoted 90% as the suggested majority needed to expel a subscriber. >That's EXTREMELY high, since it allows gross misbehavior to continue even >if 89.9% of subscribers feel strongly enough about the situation to want >the offender kicked out. ***{It's not high at all. If anything, it is too low. What needs to be recognized is this: sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you. That means we should err on the side of tolerance and freedom of speech rather than on the side of peremptory action. Given the fact that subscribers have the option of killfiling or simply not reading the rants of flamers and cranks, it is clear that the danger lies on the other side: in the direction of censorship, intolerance, and the imposition of mindless "community standards." Thus I would say that if 5% of the group members find an individual worth reading, then the rest should simply put up with him. (David Dennard, for example, should have been tolerated, as I said at the time.) And, no, I do not say that to protect myself: you are not contractually bound to any constraints, and it is transparently obvious that you are not going to accede to my wishes in this matter. The fact is that the standards I am advocating here are a description of how I would run a group such as this, if I were to ever start one. I do not like tyrants and, unlike you, I will never put myself in the position of being one. --MJ}*** In disciplinary actions taken against group >members in general, several members must "denounce" the offender in order >to initate the vote, 2/3 majority is typical, and the vote is performed as >a secret ballot to prevent acts of vengence. ***{A secret ballot places arbitrary power in the hands of the person who collects and counts the votes--you, in this case. Result: he can state virtually any totals that he pleases, and there is no way to catch him in a lie. He is, once again, in the position of writing his own report card, since he can adjust the vote totals to achieve the outcome he prefers, and no one will know. The proper way to do it, obviously, is with an open ballot. That way, people can scan down the list, and determine whether their intentions are as has been recorded there. As for "acts of vengeance," the mere fact of putting the decision in the hands of a large number of people--e.g., 90% of the readership--acts to prevent that from happening, by vastly expanding the number of targets for outrage. (If the "moderator" kicks some nut off the group, there is only *one* target: the "moderator." But if 118 out of 130 subscribers publicly vote to do so, the potential for violence is greatly reduced.) Bottom line: an open ballot is better than a secret ballot, and the larger the majority required to kick someone off, the better, from the standpoint of preventing "acts of vengeance." More comments below. --Mitchell Jones}*** >(FREENRG-L rule #2 is below) > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > >2. Flamewars are banned. No namecalling or intentional insults on this > list. Use private email if you want to be nasty. To prevent spontaneous > flamewars, be ever aware of the psychology of email, since it is easy > to misinterpret a message, hear unintentional insults, and respond in > kind. If you respond in kind to a nonexistant insult, then *you* threw > the first punch. So, if you feel offended, first ask the author if a > particular statement is intended to be insulting. You might get an > explanation or apology. ***{This is well said, true, and good advice, in cases where there is ambiguity. --MJ}*** If you respond in kind to a genuine insult, > you lower yourself to their level, participate in a flamewar ***{I also agree with the above, because of the word "genuine". A genuine insult is mindless and non-rational--e.g., telling someone that his mother gives great head, to cite a recent example--and responding in kind to mindlessness is, of necessity, to become mindless oneself. --MJ}*** , and > jeapordize your subscription to the list. And if you give a cool- > headed response to an obvious attack, you make your attacker look > like a flamer. ***{Not necessarily. What you don't seem to realize is that the introduction of personal pejoratives into a science group is inappropriate even if it *isn't* mindless--i.e., even if you do it in a calm and serious tone, and even if you avoid crude insults such as telling someone that his mother gives great head. Thus when I responded to your introduction of character-related pejoratives into the discussion by calmly and reasonably dissecting your comments, and by calmly and reasonably speculating about *your* character and motivations, I did not make you look like a flamer. How could I? You did not tell me that my mother gives great head: you calmly and seriously cast aspersions on my character. Thus your behavior was not an instance of flaming. It was, instead, merely inflammatory. But that's all that is required for it to be inappropriate fare in a science discussion group. The problem with posting such comments in groups not specifically designed to hear them is simply this: any large group of people is guaranteed to contain a number of people who, like you, see no difference between a calm and serious dissection of someone's character, and the posting of mindless insults. Result: they will treat your posting of such material as an excuse to give voice to their mindless resentments and hatreds, and the resulting heat is likely to obscure the light that might have emerged from a private, off-line discussion, or from a discussion in a group that has been designated for such purposes. --MJ}*** Thus If you absolutely must respond to insults, do > it via private email, keep it OFF freenrg-L. ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 18:21:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16710; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:17:25 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010106202140.009c68e0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 20:26:22 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: forbid political discussions? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"KgWzn2.0.054.r6zLw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I agree this is not the place for politics.... Although you probably won't have any problem with it until the next real close election (average rate of 1 per 100years) Occasional "Off topic" discussions allow all of us room for humor and some space to get more familiar with each other. It makes people more comfortable. At 03:29 PM 1/6/01 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 4 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > > > Scott > > I agree, but would like to allow a few short of toppic messages at > > times. Many are interesting, such as Jed's and Horace's. >"off topic"? > > >How about this: > > DISCUSSING POLITICS IS FORBIDDEN. However, single messages which > directly involve the politics of unorthodox science are tolerated. > Vortex-L subscribers must not reply to such messages. If people want > to discuss any sort of politics, they should go to vortexB. > > > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 20:28:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA24787; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:17:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3A57EE8E.582858AC gorge.net> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 20:20:30 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re:The Mpemba Effect Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4k6Nj1.0.836.dt-Lw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Possibilities: phase change and "momentum" Assumption: Let us assume that the Member is true. Consider that in the main, the heat sink (source of "cold") used for a Mpemba experiment is usually derived from a PHASE CHANGE. Case one: two identical beakers of water (one cold, one warm); each is placed in its own larger beaker which has cold water, ice, and salt. Case two: two identical beakers of water (one cold, one warm): both are placed in a refrigerator, or each is placed in identical refrigerators. In all cases, two phase changes take place. In the first case, the salted ice in the outer beaker melts, absorbing heat from the inner beaker. In the second, refrigerant changes from a liquid to a vapor, absorbing heat from the beakers. In all cases, the water in the subject beakers changes phase (liquid to solid) to ice. Although there will be some heat loss to the atmosphere, through the mechanisms of evaporation and radiation, heat transfer to the salted ice, or the refrigerant apparently is the most important. Assuming identical contact surfaces, the efficiency (rapidity) of this type of conductive heat transfer depends on the difference in temperature (delta T) between the hot and cold fluids, and the velocity of flow of the fluids. While a body of water which is being heated will have convection currents, does a similar body of water which is being cooled? I don't think so, but am willing to be corrected. If my assumption is accurate, fluid flow in the beaker being cooled would be cold, denser water falling along the sides of the beaker, displacing warmer (less dense) water which would rise. Maybe this could be considered "convection." Possibility: The salted ice in the outer beaker should have more heat transferred to it, from a warm subject beaker, than from a cold subject beaker. This would mean more ice would melt, and more free (circulating) water should be available to undergo convection, which would make contact with more ice surface, which would transfer more heat, which would melt more ice... In a vaguely similar way, a refrigerant might vaporize more quickly, or more completely, when in contact with a warmer beaker; thus absorbing more heat. (This doesn't seem quite as likely, to me, as the salted ice.) Off the wall idea: If one assumes that "phonons" actually exist; (rather than being only a concept) and if one further assumes that the molecules of a liquid can possess phonons; and further that heat transfer takes place through the mechanism of phonon transfer; and further if phonons transfer "heat" energy in the same way that photons transfer em energy; then phonons must have the property of "momentum." If more heat is transferred/unit time with a higher delta T, then the property of momentum must necessarily be of a larger magnitude at a higher delta T. Generally speaking, a system which has greater momentum tends to continue in motion, or process, longer than s similar system with less momentum. IF all of the assumptions ar valid, perhaps the phase change, on both the cold, and hot ends of a mpemba system continue to move at a higher rate (even when hearing equilibrium) when the original delta T was larger. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 22:24:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27462; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:22:01 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: "Freenrg-L Eskimo. Com" , "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Transmutation by electrons Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:21:44 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qhEWN1.0.ji6.7i0Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There's good reason not to try this, I suppose. If you hit a stable isotope of an element with an electron beam of sufficient energy, it would seem you could get the unstable isotope of the next lower element, which then later re-emit the electrons as it decays. Example: Looking at C12, we should be able to hit this with electrons at 14 Mev potential and see it become B12, which quickly reverts (mostly...) by emission to C12. I realize the conversion of a single gram would need a large amount of current*time. My question is, does this work this way ? Or do we need additional conditions to achieve this ? cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 22:24:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27315; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:21:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 22:21:49 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Rpt: Water Transformer Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:21:45 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"9-5JX2.0.gg6.yh0Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tried again with a copper wire (0.6 mm dia) in series with the water coil. As best as I can determine, the fields cancel: Magnets suspended at the end of the core appear to respond to the single water coil, and do not when the copper coil is powered in series [The copper coil is biased against the water coil to achieve this.] >> > > >I just finished another test-run, > > and I detected a small deflection > > of a magnet inside a 2-turn water coil > > powered by DC. > >Miniscule, but there it is. > > >< > > > >I did notice significant joule heating in the tubing, > > approx 2 degrees C over 60 seconds. > >This was measured by digital thermometer laying > > against the tubing, approx 30 cm from either electrode. > >As the coupling was loose, I will check this again. This time the water boiled... > >cheers > > > Once again, you have used no control coil in order to compare the effects > of the 50 mA in a water coil to a similar copper coil. The easiest way to > get a control is to make a simmilarly shaped coil, but of copper, and put > it in series with the water coil. This takes almost no effort. > PLEASE try > to design a control into your experiments. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > With this, I guess I should move on to other experiments, as I see the energy loss due to heating is simply too great to efficiently use this for the kind of power I need to use. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 6 23:21:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA08477; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:20:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 23:20:56 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: vortex problem Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:23:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010106182401.00a4ed80 pop3.atlantic.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"BV4El1.0.N42.NZ1Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael: Sounds like you may have a virus. One was distributed on vortex and freenrg a short while ago, first by Mike Johnston and later by Charles Ford. It is in the nature of the virus to grab the infected users email address book and propagate itself, much like a real world virus (only in that case it'd be your "little black book" yes? ). Anyway, the virus sends attachments with one of the following names. README.TXT.pif I_wanna_see_YOU.TXT.pif MATRiX_Screen_Saver.SCR LOVE_LETTER_FOR_YOU.TXT.pif NEW_playboy_Screen_saver.SCR BILL_GATES_PIECE.JPG.pif TIAZINHA.JPG.pif FEITICEIRA_NUA.JPG.pif Geocities_Free_sites.TXT.pif NEW_NAPSTER_site.TXT.pif METALLICA_SONG.MP3.pif ANTI_CIH.EXE INTERNET_SECURITY_FORUM.DOC.pif ALANIS_Screen_Saver.SCR READER_DIGEST_LETTER.TXT.pif WIN_$100_NOW.DOC.pif IS_LINUX_GOOD_ENOUGH!.TXT.pif QI_TEST.EXE AVP_Updates.EXE SEICHO-NO-IE.EXE YOU_are_FAT!.TXT.pif FREE_xxx_sites.TXT.pif I_am_sorry.DOC.pif Me_nude.AVI.pif Sorry_about_yesterday.DOC.pif Protect_your_credit.HTML.pif JIMI_HMNDRIX.MP3.pif HANSON.SCR FUCKING_WITH_DOGS.SCR MATRiX_2_is_OUT.SCR zipped_files.EXE BLINK_182.MP3.pif So watch out for any attachments like this. If you've got the thing, the best bet is to reinstall the OS. You can try using antivirus tools but as the payload was basically an executable run with root priv's on your machine there's no way to tell what has been done. I looked at the raw virus to get this list but did not attempt to decompile it to get some kind of source code. Don't blame microsoft, it could just as well have happened on a linux box. The only reason it doesn't is that, like a real world virus, it's designed to infect the most popular host. Makes sense, yeah? K. PS: I wonder if antivirus filters will sense any of the above message as the signature of the virus and sound a false alarm? -----Original Message----- From: Michael T. Huffman [mailto:knuke lcia.com] Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 6:51 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortex problem > >I have not seen the messages below. Vortex stopped working for me on >thursday, except oddly, the messages I sent did not bounce. When I tried >www.eskimo.com there was no response, so I assumed the ISP was down. Is >there any way to re-post the following items? I don't think I was the only >one in the dark. Gnorts Horace, Bill, and what remains of the rest of Vortex, I didn't get any of those messages either, and I think that there is something more than a simple listserve error at Eskimo. I tried to tell Bill about this once before in private e-mail, but he never responded. I've had a several Vortex messages in the past bounce, and I always save all the headers. The headers all said "subscriber UNKNOWN", and a copy went to the address of Gary Steckly at cyberus.com. I think some of us are having our e-mail snagged and rerouted. I also discovered yesterday that my C:\WINDOWS\Temporary Internet File folder is not allowing me to view the contents. There are over 300 files in there, but neither Explorer nor DOS can see them. It is like someone has mounted a "blackhole" drive or something on my machine. I did manage to find the files, and there are a lot of .js files in there, but I am just now discovering them, renaming them, and taking a look at them. If you are sending mail in HTML format, I would urge you to switch back to ASCII sends only. Also take a look at all your .ini files to make sure that all the MAPI stuff is turned off, and turn off the "Use Microsoft Viewers" option in Eudora. I've found numerous Playboy screen savers, vbs scripts, wsh, v and HTA files, and whatnot in my attachment directory this last week. They've mostly been coming from Vortex and FreeNRG. A moratorium on any attachments might also be good idea, and if you want to post a link, go back to the old method of writing it out in ASCII, rather than sending the attached shortcut file. As I mentioned before, I just got a "new" machine with Win98 installed, and all of this kind of caught me by surprise. I used to only worry about com, exe, bat, pif and dll files, as they were the only things that would run on my old machine. Now, there are over 50 different types of executables that run on the newer Windoze versions. I also caught my machine three times trying to silently dial out with a network adaptor protocol. I have no officially scheduled tasks. After the third time I caught it, I just unplugged the phone line. I've also found numerous logs being kept that record my login password. Somebody is getting nasty. I went back to drinking coffee. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 01:48:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03385; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:48:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57CC45.C468051A ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 14:54:14 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yOdyf1.0.pq.Gj3Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree Adam, and as far as I can tell it is true of a permanent magnet, and it would make sense and agree with my theory. I just had a thought, lets say you have a very very long magnet, and place another small magnet in attraction near one pole. what parts of that long magnet are thrust in attraction to the small one? The parts that are closest, the other parts will experience less and less force. That is really the basis of the whole thing if you think about it. And now that I have I guess you can look at the small end cap piece as a magnet from a distance as according to this line of reasoning it is just a magnet, and you can almost ignore the steel in the middle as it isn't a flux conductor but a magnet it's self with superimposed flux. So the increases in attraction to the magnet should be the same as if the end piece were a permanent magnet. I do however realize that it increases the flux in the end of the steel it attaches to a little. Anyone with that quickfield program should be able to prove my point. >John said : I know that the attraction takes place because of the compression of the magnets field, the point is that second piece compresses the magnetic field at the end of the steel not the magnet. Actually, in a coil it can be proven that all atraction and repulsion are the result of the force on the moving electrons themselves, as the fields do not actually interact but instead are superimposed atop each other. I don't know how well this holds for a solid magnet, as I can't visualize the precise motion inside which is creating the field. Merlyn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 01:52:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA03185; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:46:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:46:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57CBF6.4B4ACE16 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 14:52:54 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"29lCs2.0.hn.8i3Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 06:49 PM 1/4/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > >Still I wish you had replied to my last post before I got started on a new > >subject, there > >is no good in posting something, getting a reply that misses the point and > >then moving on > >to the nest subject. > > Sorry, I agree. Maybe we'll go back to that if it seems warranted. By the > same token, you shouldn't put "teasers" at the end of your message like you > did....:) > > > >Lets say we have two coils at a distance, one is already energized and > >it's field has > >permeated local space. Now lets turn the second coil on in a repulsive > >orientation to the > >first. The second coil experiences a propulsive force, but the first coil > >doesn't because > >the field from the second takes time to get to it. Just before the field > >from the second > >reaches the first the first turns off. > >The first coil has experienced no force while the second has, furthermore > >the news that > >the first coils magnetic field is collapsing takes more time so the second > >coil is still > >being thrust. > > This scenario DOES obey Newton's Laws perfectly provided you include in > your considerations, the momentum stored in the propagating electromagnetic > fields. The momentum imparted to the 2nd coil immediately following its > energization is balanced by field momentum moving off towards the 1st coil. > > Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is > violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore > the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, > Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and > p. 27-11) > Ok, sure. But many people still act that the only way to go in one direction is to throw matter in the other. If it is really recognized that you do not need to throw mass in the opposite direction for propulsion then why do so many in conventional physics say the only way to propel a space craft is by ejection of mass and not field propulsion. Still you are right, everyone does recognize radiation pressure, which is however too weak to be of use really. I would still like to hear your thought on how fast a magnetic field would transmit in that light slowing medium. Still there is another interesting difference between a torch and the above example, the light from a "light rocket" carries momentum in the other direction that can be reapplied to mass. However the magnetic fields in the above have no obvious way to turn back into physical momentum. Further more I am having a hard time seeing how the momentum in the magnetic fields is in any particular direction, how would you know the difference if the momentum in the fields was going in the same direction? In short after you stretch the law enough to fit the above it loses all meaning really, it says something like this. "For every action there was a causative action, and those two actions might be opposite but then again maybe not. And this is untrue in quantum physics where an electron can move without any reason." > > >Now on to energy, I am amazed how many in the Free Energy and Alt. Sci. > >community believe > >it is foolish to think that creation of energy might be possible. > >It's not illogical as most seem to think. > >Can someone give me a single reason other than the stupid "No free lunch" > >philosophy? > >You can't prove a negative, You can't prove that it is impossible to > >create energy... > > I think you are correct here. Conservation of Energy (I believe) is one of > those laws like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which was initially proposed, > then shown over the ages to work in every case ever analyzed, and NEVER > found to be in error...but it cannot be PROVED to be true. I disagree, you just ignored all the people who claim to have experimentally shown it to be in error. You know very well people have found it to be in error, however you are totally unwilling to consider the validity of their findings with a statement like that. > > > >Quantum physics shows it is possible for energy to be created and destroyed... > > AFAIK, that is incorrect. Conservation of Energy is fully integrated into > and compatible with quantum physics. I disagree, Quantum mechanics demands that random minute fluctuations in energy exist. An uncertainty of energy. However this is only a moral victory, Still there seems to be an important point. > > > >Here's an illustration, take a long vertical pipe and have water flow down > >it, suddenly > >stop any water or air from entering the top. Water will continue to leave > >the end of the > >pipe till the shock wave hits, the water that left the pipe after it was > >capped was not > >because of the waters inertia or kinetic energy but because of the delay > >in reaction. This > >is called the water hammer effect and creates a vacuum in the pipe. > > > >I have head a claim of the above being OU. > > > >The reverse idea of having the bottom of the pipe capped is a good idea > >because the energy > >in just a slight compression of water is very great. > > > >So we have water flowing down our long pipe, suddenly the bottom is > >capped. However the > >water at the top of the pipe doesn't have a clue, not yet anyway, it is > >still pouring into > >the pipe. The energy in the compression of the water is not from the > >kinetic energy but > >because of the delay, yet again the energy in the end is more and has no > >relation to the > >energy in. > > This is good analogy of inductance in an electrical circuit. Yes, energy > is stored in the movement of the water but this system surely does not > create energy anywhere. I disagree, Inductance is because of electromagnetic momentum. There is an electrical analogy of this as well, and it's that even in a case where there is no inductance due to doubling the wire back on it's self, if you suddenly break the circuit at the most distant point from the battery, the battery will for the time it takes a signal at the speed of light to travel down the wires to the battery act as though nothing has changed. You will find the wire can be charged to a voltage greater than the battery ever could. I know your a bright boy, you must be able to understand it, it's very simple. But of course humans can be very stupid when they want to be. > > > >Conventional physicists believe the following: > >Nothing is faster than light, black holes exist and slow time to a > >absolute stop, gravity > >can't be shielded. > >Now from the above we also know that gravity travels no faster than the > >speed of light, > >but wait time stops in a black hole? > >Yes those 3 things above are self contradictory because if gravity travels > >at the speed of > >light, and time stops in a black hole then the gravity from a mass on one > >side of a black > >hole would never get through the black hole. And what about the gravity of > >the black hole, > >how does it get out? > > Gravity doesn't have to "get out" of a black hole. A gravitational FIELD > is not radiation. The field is a static condition in space that is created > as the black hole is being assembled. Or, so lets say your right, now move a large mass from infinity to near a black hole. How do you make sense of that? > Once the mass "goes black", its > gravitation field still persists throughout space. > > >My point here is clear, Just because lots of people with Ph.D. in front of > >their name > >believe something and call it a "Law" of physics doesn't mean that the > >universe agrees. > > Obviously...but you seem to be grossly underestimating just how hard those > people with letters after their names have tried to understand exactly how > the universe works. They might be trying hard, but dishonestly. They don't even realize it, and they will fight to defend their "Laws" when they should be trying the hardest to tear them down. They have made themselves blind by refusing to consider evidence to the contrary. > By no means am I claiming that physicists understand > everything about the universe. On the contrary, there are vast unexplored > frontiers left. However, the phenomenological behavior of magnets, coils, > fields, moving columns of water, etc. is VERY WELL understood. No, it is assumed simple, so no one looks. you have not given the water idea any consideration, if you did you would show me why it's not true, instead you chose to ignore it and write it off as something it clearly isn't. Do you have the mathematical skills to turn it into an equation? If so then try it then talk to me about it. I have already shown that momentum plays only a small part, but you totally ignored it and claimed it as the reason. I have no interest in talking with someone who is not going to consider or properly examine something they either don't believe is possible or is scared might be. > Otherwise , > how could scientists/engineers design stuff like microprocessors, space > shuttles, cell phones, automobiles, etc. They are brilliant, and very clever, and deceitful without knowing it. They have part of the picture, but are closing their eyes to the rest. > We left the days of trial and > error engineering long ago. Nowadays, engineers CALCULATE how a device is > going to behave BEFORE it is built That is arrogance, it assumes they know everything, which is the problem. What if they "Calculate" that FE isn't possible, well they will trust their calculations and not attempt. What if the calculations show a violation, well they ignore the calculations. Calculations and mathematics are not science. They do not lead to understanding only projection. I know I'll get told off for saying that but it's true. They are very useful and often work, but as they don't go with sufficient understanding they can also be wrong or incomplete. > and use those calculations to refine the > design until the predicted performance is exactly as desired. Then, when > the device is actually constructed, it DOES perform that way. Everyone becomes overconfident because they start to feel like they know everything. Don't try and pretend there aren't anomalies. > Those > calculations are based upon the standard laws of physics and therefore > those laws are proved over and over again every time something new is > designed, built, and tested. If there were "big holes" in the laws of > physics as you propose above, believe me, engineers would know about it! As those "Big Holes" are found they are ignored. The problem goes like this. You know a lot, and you assume that you can project everything, based on the assumption "If I don't already know about it, it probably doesn't exist". When a violation is found it is ignored because it must be an error. You learn to play it safe, you stop playing in areas where your precious laws and calculations fall down. I know the secret to free energy and antigravity, I know no one will believe me when I say that but there is one fact about the two and most other "impossibles" that you should know. With the possible exception of those I have already mentioned and maybe a few other, the same thing is responsible for Free Energy and Antigravity, they will often turn up together with other anomalies. There are ways to create this "condition" but when it is not present you have little chance of finding most of the Big Holes in physics. And there are few conventional things that create this condition to any great extent. There are however still plenty of things that don't match the "calculations" which you ignore, but they appear to be only small holes. You are trying to say that if the big holes were there you would know, but you wouldn't because you never go anywhere near the big holes, and with your powerful and willful disbelief you can pretend they aren't there even when you do get to near to one. John Berry > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:00:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA05635; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:59:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57CF08.3A119BBB ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:06:00 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i_kAY3.0.uN1.Ju3Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I realize that bias will over-power any argument I make, So I am asking anyone on Vortex who is confident of their skill in mathematics to do a calculation of the problem. I will lay out the problem. You have a 1 mile long straight pipe 5 inches inside diameter with a valve at the start which lets water enter but not leave. To make things easier this will take place in space where there is no gravity, and friction will be totally ignored. Now water flows from the start to the end of the pipe at a good rate, I will let the person doing the calculations decide the speed, but it should be quite fast. The water is assumed to be at some average temperature. The water flows down the pipe with no other significant motion. The water experiences no friction as this would just make things more difficult. The flow consists of water only, no pockets of air. I should also say that this whole experiment is taking place in an environment of air at sea-level pressure. The volume is easy to calculate, the speed of the water would hopefully be calculated at two different speeds, one fast, the other 2x faster. Now once water is flowing through the whole pipe the end of the pipe is capped suddenly. Now we know how much water there is in the pipe, we know it's weight, and speed. So we know the energy contained in the water. The shockwave should travel to the top at the speed of sound in water which should be a known value. The pressure that forms will be partly due to the kinetic energy as the water will resist slowing down, it will also be because the water does not know to stop entering the pipe, even if the water had no inertia and hence no kinetic energy a pressure would still be created because it can't stop right away. The energy would obviously depend on the following: Liters entering pipe per second and the number of seconds it takes for the shockwave to hit. And the kinetic energy of the water as it resists the shockwave. Finally the energy in the compression of water, which I expect would be very great as it's considered almost incompressible so even if only a little resulted the energy should be far greater than the kinetic energy. The energy in that compressed water is due to time delay mostly which is independent to the kinetic energy of the water. So is there anything stopping a calculation? Please advise. John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:02:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA06074; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:01:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:01:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57CF83.1FF27C2 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:08:03 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yi_Ff3.0.pU1.Ew3Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 4:36 AM 1/4/1, John Berry wrote: > > >The point I'm making is that a longer flux conductor does not much change > >the density of > >compression of the magnetic field, it changes the length at that density, > >and that length > >has nothing or very little to do with attraction (I believe) > > I haven't carefully follwed all your conversation, due to lack of time, and > the due to the way your conversation is all kind of all over the place. > > I supect you have at least one fallicy involved in your thinking that is > rooted in the idea that a "flux conductor" is even possible. If you use > that concept then you have to make corresponding changes in the exisating > physical laws that you have not made. In other words, when you apply that > concept as a physical law, as opposed to using it as an engineering > approximation, things go way wrong in your ability to predict. High mu > matrials don't actually "conduct" flux within the standard physics > concepts, which includes the notion of superposition. > > If you put a coil of wire around a high mu bar, it appears that magnetic > flux is induced along the length of the bar by H of the coil. This is not > a correct interpretation using standard (superposition) theory. I have argued for superposition theory in the past, I guess it makes the most sense. I can't see how there is a difference in this case yet but I'll read on... > The H > field of the coil is not changed at all by the imposition of the bar into > the coil. That field is superpositioned with the M induced in the portions > of the bar coincident with the field, i.e. very close to the coil, and in a > manner proportional to the H field. The M induced in the bar near the coil > then propigates a net B = M + H down the bar by inducing M in each > subsequent section of the bar. Each segment of the bar is a magnet having > flux leave the bar at its local North and return and return at its local > South. The net apparent flow of flux down the bar is due to superpostion. > However, the apparent propigation of the flux is NOT conservative of flux > flow along any length of the bar, because flux lines leak out of the bar > into the space around the bar, unlike the way electrons do not > significantly leak out of wires. Agreed, but with a high permeability laminated steel, and below saturation, and perhaps a diamagnetic between the laminations and covering the whole conductor (If you will let me use that word for simplicity) I expect that a good percentage of the (non-superimposed) flux would not leak from the steel. An experiment I tried seemed to show that a great deal of flux does "conduct" down a steel rod. > The flux carried in the bar diminishes > with the length of the bar, in proportion to the the length of the bar, due > to (net) leakage into the space around the bar. The reluctance of the bar > (the magnetic equivalence of resistance) is proportional to the length of > the bar. If you insert a high mu material in a closed loop bar, i.e. a > core, you lengthen the bar and reduce the flux in the core induced by a > given number of amp turns. The number of amp-turns is the magnetomotive > force, or mmf of the magnetic "circuit," and thus is analagous to voltage. > However, this concept is really not appropriate, and falls apart as the > length of a core increases, because more and more of the field must be > carried in the space around the core, as opposed to through it, unlike the > way electron flow is maintained within a wire. The disparity is easier to > see when the core is opened up into a straight bar and ALL the flux returns > through space outside the bar - provided you can see that most of it > returns through the sides out the bar, not through the end of the bar. I agree, if too much of the flux goes astray then you are of course correct. > > > Following are some derivations I posted in another thread, but are very > relevant. > > If we start with the inductance L of a solenoid having large major diameter > R compared to minor diamter r, being identical or very close to a long > solenoid, a fact well well known on both a theoretical and experimental > basis, then we have > > L = (u0 N^2 A)/d > > where > > A is area oc cross section, Pi r^2 > d is distance around major circumference, 2 Pi R > > and knowing that: > > L = (N phi)/I > > we have for both the long solenoid and the high R/r torus: > > phi = L*I/N > > = (u0 N A I)/d > > = (u0 A I) (N/d) > > It is the term N/d that is significant to this discussion. Phi is > inversely proportional to d. The core doesn't actually "conduct" the phi. > Sorry, I am no good with math, I have no idea what that shows. I do believe that you could have enough flux conduct down the steel, though I can't say for sure Also when it comes down to it I can't say for sure that it matters, I mean obviously it would be harder to make it practical but I can't see how that changes the attraction force at the magnet, though it does make my argument less convincing. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:24:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09396; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:24:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:24:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57D4C9.A7F5CEB5 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 15:30:34 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"A085i3.0.jI2.JF4Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If your right, then it will show in a suitable quickfield diagram, I think that if one had many thin highly permeable wires with a diamagnetic coating to encourage the flux to stay in the wire you would have little leakage, especially if the wire was well below saturation. This however doesn't seem to change the theory that much, only the practicality. I have witnessed flux travel a long way down a steel wire before, so I expect it will work if things are done right. Still you might be right anyway because maybe the level of saturation for that to be true might be too low to be much good anyway. [snip] > Diagram: These ASCII things almost never go right, need about 82+ char. > per line > _ _______________________________________________________________ ___ > |_| > |_______________________________STEEL__________________________N|NEO|S > > > So lets say the steel end-piece is now attached to the long flux > conductor. Now how much > more energy does it take to remove the magnet from the steel conductor > than if the steel > end-piece was not there? Not much more energy. The reason is that most of the flux from the permanent magnet returns through the space fairly near the magnet, so not much of the magnet's flux makes it to the far end of even a highly permeable rod. ===== Michael J. Schaffer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:32:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA11734; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:32:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:32:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:39:04 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: Rpt: Water Transformer Resent-Message-ID: <"Yp2sa1.0.Gt2.dM4Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:21 PM 1/7/1, xplorer wrote: >Tried again with a copper wire (0.6 mm dia) > in series with the water coil. > >As best as I can determine, > the fields cancel: Excellent! That means the control coil field is exactly equal to the water coil field, as expected, and as I obtained in my experiments. All is in agreement with standard theory. Thanks for using a control coil. > >Magnets suspended at the end of the core > appear to respond > to the single water coil, > and do not when the copper coil is > powered in series >[The copper coil is biased against > the water coil to achieve this.] Another convincer is to keep the coils in series, but wrap on separate cores - or wrap each on the core at a separate time and then observe that the forces created by each coil are identical. [snip] > >With this, I guess I should move on to > other experiments, > as I see the energy loss due to > heating is simply too great to > efficiently use this for the kind of power > I need to use. Yes, I too found the electrolyte conductivity is very low, which makes it very difficult to do quantitative experiments, or to use in a practical way if some unusual effect is found. Lye or KOH probably make for the best electrolyte conductivites, but they are only about twice a good as salt. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 02:44:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA13363; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:44:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 02:44:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 01:52:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Resent-Message-ID: <"t89ps.0.fG3.uX4Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:08 PM 1/7/1, John Berry wrote: >Agreed, but with a high permeability laminated steel, and below >saturation, and perhaps a >diamagnetic between the laminations and covering the whole conductor (If >you will let me >use that word for simplicity) I expect that a good percentage of the >(non-superimposed) >flux would not leak from the steel. This just doesn't follow. You can't enclose the flux significantly with a diamagnetic. If you COULD wrap a straight bar core with a diamagnetic cover with a mu of near 0, it takes a lot more energy to get any flux INTO the core in the first place. > >An experiment I tried seemed to show that a great deal of flux does >"conduct" down a steel > >rod. [snip] Did you do any quantitative measurements? Could you describe your experiment? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 05:21:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15564; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 05:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 05:21:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-241.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.241] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:27:17 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ph.D's learn't Bias Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LuVdK.0.1p3._q6Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On the other hand, just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn't mean that >the person has not studied a chunk of the universe fairly deeply. Having a Ph.D means the person went and learnt what is already known and got lots of what the establishment teaches. Most people don't break out of their "Educational Baggage". They don't explore where they have been told not to, They "Tow the line" That is a sweeping generalization of course, that is not true of all, just most. >Nor does it mean that the person has stopped learning more about the >universe since acquiring the Ph.D. "Laws" of physics are science's >tentative summary statements about how some aspects of the universe >appear to work. True, that's exactly what they are, And no more. However that is not the view of most Ph.D's. Even if they do tell you so they have not really taken it onboard as they refuse to sufficiently study these things, their Bias is too strong. To find these "Secrets" you had better not go in believing you will probably fail as that is what you are virtually guaranteed to do. >"Laws" is a common, but poor word. "Theories" is better. The goal is >agreement with the universe, whether one has a Ph.D. or not. The history >of science is littered by theories killed by data. Theories change if new >data doesn't fit in True, But they use the word "Laws" because they have no reasonable belief that they are wrong. Just ask 5 Ph.D's if it is a reasonable possibility, Highly unlikely or Totally impossible. I think you will find most will pick the last two. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 06:19:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA26186; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 06:18:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 06:18:32 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:20:01 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion In-reply-to: <3A57CBF6.4B4ACE16 ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"RTo-o1.0._O6.tg7Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:52 PM 1/7/2001 +1300, John Berry wrote: >Ok, sure. But many people still act that the only way to go in >one direction is to throw matter in the other. If it is really recognized >that you do not need to throw mass in the opposite direction for >propulsion then why do so many in conventional physics say the only way to >propel a >space craft is by ejection of mass and not field propulsion. According to the existing laws of physics, the only way to go in one direction is to throw mass/energy in the other direction. As the term implies, mass/energy can be either mass (i.e. conventional rockets) or energy (i.e. a photon rocket) or a combination of the two. "Field propulsion" is a popular topic these days...but the only viable form of it should really be called radiation propulsion (i.e. a photon rocket). As you point out, a photon rocket isn't very efficient. You have to radiate 300 megawatts of power out the tailpipe to generate 1 newton (1/4 pound) of thrust! Lots of folks (myself included) have wandered down the trail of "field propulsion" looking for some way to arrange crossed E and H fields on board the ship so as to create stored linear momentum in the fields with the hope that, as a result, the ship would take off in the opposite direction. These efforts are doomed to failure by a little-known phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further explanation/references for this if you're interested). The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of physics. Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. John, you are really covering too much ground in your posts. Each of your points deserves separate consideration and discussion. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 06:26:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA28055; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 06:25:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 06:25:32 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:27:31 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: pH measurements!! X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107082403.022ceb10 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"B-WHo2.0.Hs6.Rn7Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a reconstruction of the original message which I posted to Vortex Friday when it was down: I measured the pH of both the unused K2CO3 solution (unused portion remaining from Run 1) and the solution that had been electrolyzed in Run 1 at 0.083 amps for 285 hours using my new Cole-Parmer pH meter with amber-glass Ag/AgCl pH probe. Both solutions read 11.66 pH!!!!! Why is a "pure salt" solution reading so basic? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 07:53:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA16638; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:49:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:49:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A588266.1AA2680C ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:51:20 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pH measurements!! References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107082403.022ceb10 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T6TUU1.0.u34.a09Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, K2CO3 normally makes a basic solution because the ionized solution of K+ and CO3-- makes a solution consisting of H2CO3 and K+ plus OH-. Because H2CO3 is a partially ionized acid, the H+ ion is preferentially tied up, thereby releasing OH- into the solution. The observation that no change was observed in the pH indicates that very little if any CO2 was released from your solution. You should check the pH of the water through which the evolving gas is bubbling. Any CO2 will make this water slightly acid. Ed Storms Scott Little wrote: > This is a reconstruction of the original message which I posted to Vortex > Friday when it was down: > > I measured the pH of both the unused K2CO3 solution (unused portion > remaining from Run 1) and the solution that had been electrolyzed in Run 1 > at 0.083 amps for 285 hours using my new Cole-Parmer pH meter with > amber-glass Ag/AgCl pH probe. > > Both solutions read 11.66 pH!!!!! > > Why is a "pure salt" solution reading so basic? > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 07:57:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA17828; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:53:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 07:53:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A58832F.675F5D87 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:54:40 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers References: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> <3A54EFC9.87F5CA7E@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LPOE-2.0.UM4.h39Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is being resent in case it was not previously posted by Vortex. Edmund Storms wrote: > Check out http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html for some of my papers. > > Ed Storms > > erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. > > > > Some internet links I emailed (including the Economist's reference to a > > second aether theory, and JR's meeting summaries on Vortex) were given to an AP > > reporter who 'reports on physics'. No guessing please. Let him choose his pace > > or nouveau rejection. He 'scoffed, read intently, and expressed surprise at all > > the activity'. > > > > Now I think physics is in an 'until death do us part' period which cannot > > be changed by reporters or reliable CF experiments, but still I will mail a > > half dozen recent * reliable experiments * - kick it up a notch - papers (no > > guarantee that they will be passed along or read), if I can find them in a > > library or someone mails me a copy. I have one Mizuno, many Infinite Energies, > > would like Iwamura, do not have access to Fusion Technology, and will visit the > > library next week. Suggestions welcome. > > > > I'll put an email summary by/about SL on top if he gets the pulse to work > > anywhere. That's the PdCF > > electrolytic reliability experiment. Either that succeeds or the electrolyte > > experiment is dead, except for solution additions, e.g., noble gases, and > > modifications e.g., Iwamura, Mizuno). > > > > If you need the snail address, send an email. Thanks. > > > > John Neergaard > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 08:19:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA24431; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:14:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 08:14:54 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:09:27 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"q1X0r2.0.Zz5.zN9Mw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: xplorer wrote: > Looking at C12, we should be able to hit this with electrons > at 14 Mev potential > and see it become B12...My question is, does this work this > way ? Short answer: No. Without looking at cross section tables, I would guess that the most probable nuclear reaction (by many orders of magnitude) it the removal of a neutron by spallation, giving 13C. Even this is relatively improbable (low cross section). If electron capture were easy (probable) the energy problem would have been solved long ago. By analogy, one could say that electrons can't "crash" a party, they must be "invited" in by the nucleus. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 09:31:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA18751; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:26:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:26:22 -0800 Message-ID: <380858996.978888276591.JavaMail.root web569-mc> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Goldes To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic Interstellar Spacecraft Funded Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 207.44.219.203 Resent-Message-ID: <"GSNzt3.0.va4.-QAMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion, might like to look at the following URL. It describes the "Magnetic Bottle" work of Dr. Robert Winglee at the U. of Washington. He also has posted substantial information on the U. website. An interplanetary probe based on his work is expected to fly in about three years. The first launch to another star has been slated for 2010. http://www.science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop19aug99_1.htm Mark Goldes, Magnetic Power Inc. ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 09:35:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA20814; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:31:28 -0800 Message-ID: <014201c078d7$a96d7ac0$c4b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107082403.022ceb10 earthtech.org> <3A588266.1AA2680C@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: pH measurements!! Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:27:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="EUC-KR" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"3gm_92.0._45.lVAMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 6:51 AM Subject: Re: pH measurements!! Ed Storms wrote: > > Scott, > > K2CO3 normally makes a basic solution because the ionized solution of K+ and > CO3-- makes a solution consisting of H2CO3 and K+ plus OH-. Because H2CO3 > is a partially ionized acid, the H+ ion is preferentially tied up, thereby > releasing OH- into the solution. The observation that no change was > observed in the pH indicates that very little if any CO2 was released from > your solution. You should check the pH of the water through which the > evolving gas is bubbling. Any CO2 will make this water slightly acid. Beautifully stated, Ed. :-) I might add that the pH is also independent of the concentration,too. This effect is exploited in the John M. Gould process (US 4,649,113)which uses an alkali carbonate and ~ 1% Hydrogen Peroxide solution to delignify cellulose to upgrade straw and corn stover for livestock feed. The process is also licensed by the Dept of Commerce to make dietary fiber for human consumption. Southwest Bioenergy Inc., (Sparber and Pattison) had a license on this and sub-licensed to three International Fortune 500 Companys for about 12 years. :-) Regards, Frederick > > Ed Storms > > > > Scott Little wrote: > > > This is a reconstruction of the original message which I posted to Vortex > > Friday when it was down: > > > > I measured the pH of both the unused K2CO3 solution (unused portion > > remaining from Run 1) and the solution that had been electrolyzed in Run 1 > > at 0.083 amps for 285 hours using my new Cole-Parmer pH meter with > > amber-glass Ag/AgCl pH probe. > > > > Both solutions read 11.66 pH!!!!! > > > > Why is a "pure salt" solution reading so basic? > > > > Scott Little > > EarthTech International, Inc. > > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > > Austin TX 78759 > > 512-342-2185 > > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > > http://www.earthtech.org > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 10:06:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA00831; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:03:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:03:51 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 09:57:00 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Magnetic Interstellar Spacecraft Funded To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A58ADEC.76195B6D pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <380858996.978888276591.JavaMail.root web569-mc> Resent-Message-ID: <"N0SL_1.0.vC.6-AMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote:
Those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion, might like to
look at the following URL...
http://www.science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop19aug99_1.htm
For those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion of an even more speculative nature, Fred Epps posted the following French patent to another list: 
http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR2709353&CY=ep&amp;LG=en&amp;DB=EPD


Gravitational generator based on coherent electromagnetic waves

The invention relates to a device making it possible to generate a
gravitational field induced by action of the passage of a coherent light
current in an optical solenoid. It consists of a source (7) of coherent
electromagnetic radiation such as a LASER and of an optical solenoid (10)
composed of one or more turns of optical fibre (11) transparent to the
radiation. The coherent radiation (8) travelling longitudinally along the
optical fibre generates, within the solenoid, a luminal gravitational field
(14) of intensity proportional to the frequency of the radiation, to its
intensity and to the number of turns of the solenoid. This same process also
modifies the local temporal field. Numerous applications stem from this type
of invention, especially in research and in industry, for example in order
to attract any type of body or to slow down physical processes.

  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 10:10:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA01749; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:06:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 09:59:55 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Magnetic Interstellar Spacecraft Funded To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A58AE9B.A3428EA5 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <380858996.978888276591.JavaMail.root web569-mc> Resent-Message-ID: <"FTJ6l1.0.5R.b0BMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion, might like to > look at the following URL... > http://www.science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop19aug99_1.htm For those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion of an even more speculative nature, Fred Epps posted the following French patent to another list: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=FR2709353&CY=ep&LG=en&DB=EPD Gravitational generator based on coherent electromagnetic waves The invention relates to a device making it possible to generate a gravitational field induced by action of the passage of a coherent light current in an optical solenoid. It consists of a source (7) of coherent electromagnetic radiation such as a LASER and of an optical solenoid (10) composed of one or more turns of optical fibre (11) transparent to the radiation. The coherent radiation (8) travelling longitudinally along the optical fibre generates, within the solenoid, a luminal gravitational field (14) of intensity proportional to the frequency of the radiation, to its intensity and to the number of turns of the solenoid. This same process also modifies the local temporal field. Numerous applications stem from this type of invention, especially in research and in industry, for example in order to attract any type of body or to slow down physical processes. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 10:15:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02107; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:07:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:07:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:16:24 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Resent-Message-ID: <"BSu2I1.0.rW.w1BMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:08 PM 1/7/1, John Berry wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >> phi = L*I/N >> >> = (u0 N A I)/d >> >> = (u0 A I) (N/d) >> >> It is the term N/d that is significant to this discussion. Phi is >> inversely proportional to d. The core doesn't actually "conduct" the phi. >> > >Sorry, I am no good with math, I have no idea what that shows. >I do believe that you could have enough flux conduct down the steel, >though I can't say >for sure [snip] John, it is wonderful that you have an interest in science, an open mind, and obvious creative talent. However, I can't see how you have any hope of understanding physics without at least a high school freshman level of math. I can tell you from my own experience that it is very worthwhile to buy some math and physics books at second hand stores (Bishop's Attic has been the best source for me.) They are generally about $0.50 to $1.00. Find one that looks to be about at your level and that has answers in the back of the book. Do the problems. You might be surprised at how far you can get in 6 months to a year. It is not where you are or how fast you are moving but rather where you are going that counts. If you want to spring for some money, go to a local college bookstore and look for a math text that has a corresponding student solutions manual. The student solutions manual not only gives you the final answers, but the complete solutions, which helps if you get stuck. Better yet, take a course at a night school or community college. You definitely don't have to worry about your brain being poluted in a math class. If you take some classical physics courses or self study the material, you really don't have to worry too much about brain pollution there either - everything you learn is fairly well proven within the normal macro world, and provides a necessary basis for seeing what modern physics has to say about things. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 10:28:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09457; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:23:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:23:52 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:32:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Mpemba effect Resent-Message-ID: <"UlFR4.0.cJ2.uGBMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am surprised that there are no corrections regarding the below. I take it the following is reasonable and accurate? If so, this, having a few minor corrections, will be my final draft. The Mpemba Effect Aristotle, Bacon, Descartes, and in 1969, a Tanzania high school student named Mpemba experimentally observed that hot water can freeze faster than cold water. This effect is now called the Mpemba effect because Mpemba's experiments caused some controversy due to the non-intuitive nature of the effect. (See ) The Mpemba effect provides a marvelous concrete example of how important it is to test even the most common sense theories by experiment, and how difficult quantification and a complete characterization of even the simplest results can be. Intuitively, many dismiss the Mpemba effect as impossible, because a hot water sample reaches the starting temperature of a cold water sample only after some delay, and thus the hot water sample must take longer to freeze. However, it is reasonable that the Mpemba effect is no illusion. There are sound reasons for the effect. A liquid is a dynamic system. Hot water carries more energy than cold water when it is placed into a freezer. Therefore, the convection eddy currents set up in the hot water are stronger than those set up in the cold water, and eddy currents in water last a very long time. Water is a fairly good insulator, so, all else being equal, the water with the most initial eddy currents at a given temperature is likely to freeze first - a hypothesis that is readily tested. The two samples involved in the Mpemba effect are not the same system when at the same temperature. One has greater kinetic energy than the other and therefore a greater cooling rate due to convection. For example, a test sample consisting of completely still water (if that were possible) at 50 deg. C will be a different system when it reaches 10 deg. C than water which starts out as a control sample which is completely still water at 10 deg. C. In the process of the test sample temperature dropping to the starting temperature of the control sample, some of the heat energy of the test sample is converted to kinetic energy in the form of convection eddy currents. Convection eddy currents are initiated spontaneously when there is a thermal gradient applied to a liquid. A thermal gradient converts some of the heat energy into the kinetic energy associated with the eddy currents. The eddy currents are therefore not induced by experimental error, but are necessitated by the mere fact that a thermal gradient must be induced in the water sample to cool it. To cool a sample the boundary of the sample must be made cooler than the interior, and thus a thermal gradient is necessarily formed by any experimental procedure that cools the water. Once currents are established in water, they last a very long time, often for days, even though they become slow and normally undetectable. This can be shown experimentally by stirring water in a stoppered sink bowl in a specific direction and leaving it for a long period. When the stopper is removed a vortex will form as the water runs down the drain. The direction of the vortex will be the direction the water was stirred. It may be possible that, by extreme effort, and by doing the experiment in a zero gravity situation, the effect might be nearly eliminated by nearly eliminating the convection eddy current formation due to the applied thermal gradient. However, some convection currents will always be initiated or amplified by the application of a thermal gradient to the sample. It is also extremely difficult to avoid momentarily applying a thermal gradient to the boundary itself, when the experiment is begun, and these gradients will be larger for a hot sample than for a cold sample, all else being equal. Supercooling, the ability of water to drop below the freezing temperature when slowly cooled and very pure and still, should amplify the Mpemba effect. The more convection currents in a sample, the less supercooling should occur. Without considerations of supercooling, water freezes at 0 deg. C, and requires about 79.8 calories per gram to make the transition from liquid to solid state, without any change in temperature involved. Liquid water requires only 1 calorie per gram to change 1 deg. C. It takes as much heat transfer to drop 79.8 deg. C as it does to freeze 0 deg. C water. If the starting temperature is below 79.8 deg. C, then the majority of the energy transfer occurs at 0 deg. C. The rate of heat transfer at 0 deg. C is a critical variable in determining which sample freezes first. Convection currents can dramatically affect heat transfer rates, by exposing large volumes of the liquid directly to the heat transfer boundary, be that the container walls or the ice itself. Slow moving molecules are culled out of the moving stream of water at the water-ice boundary. If the water does not move, then the relatively slower mechanism of thermal conduction is all that remains to effect the freezing. If the heat transfer rate at 0 deg. C is only doubled by the increased convection, then water with an initial temperature of less than about 39.9 deg. C will freeze at about the same time as water initially at 0 deg. C. An almost 40 deg. advantage is given to the hotter water. There should not be much doubt that the observers of the effect, Mpemba, Aristotle, Bacon, and Descartes were correct, that at least under certain conditions hot water freezes faster than cold, all else being equal, but only experiment tells the tale for sure. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 10:28:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA10090; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:25:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:25:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c078df$3ec4d120$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Agricultural Research vs Starships Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:22:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0789C.1823BB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"0mn8A2.0.PT2.dIBMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0789C.1823BB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While Fred Epps is on his voyage to the stars. :-) http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm28pe.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0789C.1823BB00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="A Science Odyssey People and Discoveries Fleming discovers penicillin.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="A Science Odyssey People and Discoveries Fleming discovers penicillin.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm28pe.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/dm28pe.html Modified=402D8EAEDE78C001C0 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0789C.1823BB00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 11:01:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA24157; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:55:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:55:30 -0800 Message-ID: <0e5a01c078da$f99b92e0$62584118 mtwh1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:52:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"_aMLm2.0.Ev5.XkBMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott, Frederic Sparber had a series of discussions here a couple of years ago with Horace H. regarding increasing net linear momentum (using standard physics so far as I could tell) without wandering down any dead end of "crossed fields". Fred did not allow the conservation of momentum law to stop his speculative imagination from coming up with this novel idea-- he proposed beaming light onto [into] a carbon matrix to create momentum. A fascinating concept, since dropped because it could go no further without experiment, not because of any laws of "hidden momentum". BTW, I am totally unaware of this hidden law. Could you tell us more about it please. Thanks. Colin Quinney ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Little" To: ; Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion > At 02:52 PM 1/7/2001 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > >Ok, sure. But many people still act that the only way to go in > >one direction is to throw matter in the other. If it is really recognized > >that you do not need to throw mass in the opposite direction for > >propulsion then why do so many in conventional physics say the only way to > >propel a > >space craft is by ejection of mass and not field propulsion. > > According to the existing laws of physics, the only way to go in one > direction is to throw mass/energy in the other direction. As the term > implies, mass/energy can be either mass (i.e. conventional rockets) or > energy (i.e. a photon rocket) or a combination of the two. > > "Field propulsion" is a popular topic these days...but the only viable form > of it should really be called radiation propulsion (i.e. a photon > rocket). As you point out, a photon rocket isn't very efficient. You > have to radiate 300 megawatts of power out the tailpipe to generate 1 > newton (1/4 pound) of thrust! > > Lots of folks (myself included) have wandered down the trail of "field > propulsion" looking for some way to arrange crossed E and H fields on board > the ship so as to create stored linear momentum in the fields with the hope > that, as a result, the ship would take off in the opposite > direction. These efforts are doomed to failure by a little-known > phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which > spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any > net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further > explanation/references for this if you're interested). > > The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving > UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws > of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where > you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD > to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of > physics. > > Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area > of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our > spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the > Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space > analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as > reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 11:05:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25776; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:59:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:59:55 -0800 Message-ID: <002001c078e4$05bb2000$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Asteroid Starships? Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:56:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"s9rmJ2.0.gI6.hoBMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Setting up shop on with a 100 Megawatt Nuclear Reactor on an Asteroid and using it's indigenous materials can convert a mass that is already in orbit about the Sun into a Starship. It is simply a matter of logistics using existing technologies for material production and parts fabrication. The oxides of Iron, Nickel, Cobalt, Aluminum, Magnesium, and Titanium can be separated into the metals to build the ship's structure, with the O2 used as a propellant. Then send it to the Stars where these people with propulsion schemes that require Gigawatts/lb of thrust, Belong. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 11:57:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16299; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:49:36 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <33.eff718b.278a222b aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:48:59 EST Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 128 Resent-Message-ID: <"XWbCO.0.W-3.GXCMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/7/01 9:19:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, little earthtech.org writes: << The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of physics. >> Not exactly correct. What is conserved is momentum. If a spaceship could push off of a planet momentum would be conserved. This spacecraft would be propelled very efficiently. We already employ a form of this propulsion in the gravitational slingshot effect. The problem with direct use is that the range of local electromagnetic force is much to short to propel a craft into space. The gravitomagnetic effect has a much longer range. The problem is it is the gravitomagnetic force much to weak. If my constants of the motion theory proves itself we may be able to increase the strength of long range gravitomagnetic effects. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 12:37:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31654; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:27:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:27:26 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 13:38:07 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-reply-to: <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> To: John Berry Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <352270444.20010107133807 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> Resent-Message-ID: <"g65Lu1.0.Wk7.k4DMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ph.D.'s learn't bias?? What the hell does "learn't" mean? JB> Having a Ph.D means the person went and learnt what is already known and got lots of what JB> the establishment teaches. JB> Most people don't break out of their "Educational Baggage". JB> They don't explore where they have been told not to, They "Tow the line" Do you have any data to support your baloney? Where I come from, Ph.D. students in fact are required to do original work to get their Ph.D. in the first place. "Tow" the line?? If you are going to spout anti-establishment drivel, you might try at least to get your metaphores right. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:00:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06253; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:46:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 12:46:07 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 07:45:27 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA06222 Resent-Message-ID: <"nCyKD1.0.cX1.EMDMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:09:27 -0800: [snip] >By analogy, one could say that electrons can't "crash" a party, >they must be "invited" in by the nucleus. [snip] ...But neutrinos can "crash a party" (neutrino detectors)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:12:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA13489; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:06:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:06:42 -0800 Message-ID: <005201c078f5$bad1b4c0$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:03:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"24G2r.0.gI3.YfDMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Colin Quinney quinney inforamp.net wrote: > > Frederic Sparber had a series of discussions here a couple of years ago.. Snip > he proposed beaming light onto [into] a carbon matrix to create momentum. > > since dropped because it could go no further without experiment. > Yes Colin. Even the Crookes Radiometer will "run backwards" in a hard vacuum (even though it should require a Gigawwatt/lb) possibly because the thermal gradient set up across the carbon layer sets up lattice vibrations that follow an energy distribution set up by the thermal gradient thus making the device a "Passive Heat Engine" that follows Carnot Limiting. I used a 150 watt Infrared Heat Lamp with internal reflector, coated with several layers of a carbon-based paint that was fired onto the bulb face, but, since all efforts to compensate for thermally induced convection currents were futile in air, I don't know for sure if the 10 kilowatts/pound thrust figure arrived at was real. This IS NOT a closed system, since the heat flow through it is/should do mechanical work in setting up the thermal distribution of lattice vibrations in the Carbon Matrix Layers. A coating of Pu238 or Po 210 covered by a good thermal insulator,on a "Carbon Thrust Sheet" i.e., graphite paper, would serve nicely as an integral heat source. I guess we'll have to wait on a good experiment in vacuum. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:19:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16941; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:15:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:15:46 -0800 Message-ID: <005801c078f6$fd3a05a0$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:12:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4ykuL1.0.Y84.1oDMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Robin wrote: > In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:09:27 -0800: > [snip] > >By analogy, one could say that electrons can't "crash" a party, > >they must be "invited" in by the nucleus. > [snip] > ...But neutrinos can "crash a party" (neutrino detectors)? So can electrons. See the work (CEBAF) of Jefferson Lab, www.jlab.org is doing with ~ 5 Gev electrons. Regards, Frederick > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:23:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA18925; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:20:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:20:25 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 08:19:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <35nh5t4ollq7785753aaj539r4n8ti0qpn 4ax.com> References: <3A57CBF6.4B4ACE16 ihug.co.nz> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA18878 Resent-Message-ID: <"jzy9M3.0.Yd4.OsDMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:20:01 -0600: [snip] >The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving >UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws >of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where >you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD >to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of >physics. > >Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area >of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our >spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the >Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space >analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as >reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. [snip] As far as I am concerned, it is pure science fact, as I have personally witnessed it in action. However I have never seen a quark, or even an experiment purporting to prove their existence ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:33:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA22738; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:29:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:29:39 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 08:29:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <9fnh5tclapimnj05v10q90rlegjrgbuhbg 4ax.com> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0@ihug.co.nz> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0 earthtech.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA22713 Resent-Message-ID: <"6Dv7l3.0.7Z5.2_DMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Scott Little's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:33:54 -0600: [snip] >This scenario DOES obey Newton's Laws perfectly provided you include in >your considerations, the momentum stored in the propagating electromagnetic >fields. The momentum imparted to the 2nd coil immediately following its >energization is balanced by field momentum moving off towards the 1st coil. I think the point here is that the field momentum moving toward the 1st coil never interacts with the vessel again, and in this sense represents the momentum absorbed by the earth when a car drives across the surface. Except that in this case the field momentum just propagates through space, until it meets something with which it can interact. I think the important question here is whether or not this field momentum represents the momentum of photons, or is it perhaps something more? > >Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is >violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore >the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, >Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and >p. 27-11) [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 13:49:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA29746; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:45:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:45:18 -0800 Message-ID: <009401c078fb$10968c00$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0@ihug.co.nz> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> <9fnh5tclapimnj05v10q90rlegjrgbuhbg@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:42:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"BvFSc3.0.iG7.kDEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Robin wrote: Snip > > I think the point here is that the field momentum moving toward the 1st coil > never interacts with the vessel again, and in this sense represents the > momentum absorbed by the earth when a car drives across the surface. > Except that in this case the field momentum just propagates through space, > until it meets something with which it can interact. I think the important > question here is whether or not this field momentum represents the momentum > of photons, or is it perhaps something more? I think that you are missing the point on the energy density of the field, Robin. The momentum of a photon (high energy density) mc = E/c. Perhaps with a Very Strong magnetic field.... ? Calculate the B field of a photon. Regards, Frederick Regards, > > > > >Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is > >violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore > >the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, > >Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and > >p. 27-11) > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:13:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA08273; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:09:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:09:11 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 14:03:04 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A58E798.F06A8CD9 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248 pacbell.net> <005801c078f6$fd3a05a0$ee8f85ce fjsparber> Resent-Message-ID: <"CcGh71.0.B12.6aEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > So can electrons. [enter the nucleus] See the work (CEBAF) of Jefferson Lab, > www.jlab.org is doing with ~ 5 Gev electrons. Without sounding too Clintonesque about certain distinctions, just out of curiosity, when is an accelerated electron no longer an "electron"? Isn't it true that when you get up to a Gev, then your former electron has a mass greater than a proton and at 5 your new particle is looking like an Li nucleus. I notice that CEBAF is adding on a 12 Gev enhancement, so pretty soon that C target will start looking light by comparison. They might have to start using special cigars as targets. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:30:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15788; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:24:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: <0f1701c078f8$34d3eb60$62584118 mtwh1.on.wave.home.com> From: "Colin Quinney" To: References: <005201c078f5$bad1b4c0$ee8f85ce fjsparber> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:21:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"xh3jG1.0.cs3.aoEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Frederick, Sorry I misspelled your name :-( The time and expense required to building it and placing it in a vacuum chamber with measurement tools enclosed is high. Could not we design a less costly intermediate experiment? What if we enclosed the "Thruster" inside of a thermally insulated box? According to your calculations, 1000 watts ==> one tenth of a pound of thrust. Could we measure any possible weight change before the heat escapes from the box? Or would that be considered a "closed" system? And if that is a closed system, how do you design an experiment that's "open" (?) Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion > Colin Quinney quinney inforamp.net wrote: > > > > Frederic Sparber had a series of discussions here a couple of years ago.. > Snip > > he proposed beaming light onto [into] a carbon matrix to create momentum. > > > > since dropped because it could go no further without experiment. > > > Yes Colin. Even the Crookes Radiometer will "run backwards" in a hard vacuum > (even though it should require a Gigawwatt/lb) possibly because the thermal gradient > set up across the carbon layer sets up lattice vibrations that follow an energy > distribution set up by the thermal gradient thus making the device a > "Passive Heat Engine" that follows Carnot Limiting. > > I used a 150 watt Infrared Heat Lamp with internal reflector, coated with > several layers of a carbon-based paint that was fired onto the bulb face, but, > since all efforts to compensate for thermally induced convection currents were > futile in air, I don't know for sure if the 10 kilowatts/pound thrust figure arrived at was > real. > > This IS NOT a closed system, since the heat flow through it is/should do mechanical work > in setting up the thermal distribution of lattice vibrations in the Carbon Matrix Layers. > > A coating of Pu238 or Po 210 covered by a good thermal insulator,on a > "Carbon Thrust Sheet" i.e., graphite paper, would serve nicely as an integral heat source. > > I guess we'll have to wait on a good experiment in vacuum. > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:30:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17099; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:27:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:27:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:34:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: <"uO2In1.0.2B4.9rEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:48 PM 1/7/1, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > If a spaceship could >push off of a planet momentum would be conserved. This spacecraft would be >propelled very efficiently. We already employ a form of this propulsion in >the gravitational slingshot effect. The problem with direct use is that the >range of local electromagnetic force is much to short to propel a craft into >space. The gravitomagnetic effect has a much longer range. The problem is >it is the gravitomagnetic force much to weak. If my constants of the motion >theory proves itself we may be able to increase the strength of long range >gravitomagnetic effects. > >Frank Znidarsic This sounds consistent with the theories of Paul Hill, a NASA engineer who investigated UFOs. Could you post some information regarding your theory and how such projection can be obtained? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:31:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16377; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:26:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:26:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20010107161600.00a5e820 mailhost.sunherald.infi.net> X-Sender: stk mailhost.sunherald.infi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 16:19:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" Subject: Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-Reply-To: <352270444.20010107133807 imap2.asu.edu> References: <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vzF74.0.h_3.EqEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Do you have any data to support your baloney? Where I come from, Ph.D. >students in fact are required to do original work to get their Ph.D. >in the first place. Yes, but not many of them seem too eager to consider throwing out many commonly held theoretical beliefs should they need to be revised. I have dealt with many who are close minded like that, however it should be pointed out that there are quite a few who aren't close minded. I've met them, talked to them, and they are quite reasonable. >"Tow" the line?? If you are going to spout anti-establishment drivel, >you might try at least to get your metaphores right. Funny, it seems to me that the only reason you are here, judging from your past postings is to rant about how bad the 'anti-establishment' types are. I'm sure others have noticed this. You might seriously consider toning down the attitude of your posts, especially where it comes to people who are without a degree. Being without a degree does not equal stupidity. --Kyle From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:31:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17128; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:27:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:27:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:34:30 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: <"5alvE.0.YB4.HrEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:19 AM 1/8/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >>Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area >>of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our >>spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the >>Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space >>analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as >>reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. >[snip] >As far as I am concerned, it is pure science fact, as I have personally >witnessed it in action. [snip] What did you witness Robin? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:39:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19129; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:32:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:32:14 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 09:31:38 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0@ihug.co.nz> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> <9fnh5tclapimnj05v10q90rlegjrgbuhbg@4ax.com> <009401c078fb$109 68c00$ee8f85ce fjsparber> In-Reply-To: <009401c078fb$10968c00$ee8f85ce fjsparber> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA19095 Resent-Message-ID: <"CNJC3.0.pg4.kvEMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:42:02 -0800: [snip] >> I think the point here is that the field momentum moving toward the 1st coil >> never interacts with the vessel again, and in this sense represents the >> momentum absorbed by the earth when a car drives across the surface. >> Except that in this case the field momentum just propagates through space, >> until it meets something with which it can interact. I think the important >> question here is whether or not this field momentum represents the momentum >> of photons, or is it perhaps something more? > >I think that you are missing the point on the energy density of the field, Robin. No, that is precisely what my last sentence was referring to. > >The momentum of a photon (high energy density) mc = E/c. Yes, but this presumes that photons are relevant. I think that the idea is that the frequency is zero, so that the wavelength is infinite, and the whole universe is in the near field. (I must admit however that I'm getting out of my depth here :). > >Perhaps with a Very Strong magnetic field.... ? Yes, I think a strong field is the intent, however not a rapidly alternating field. I.e. radiation emission is not the goal. I have previously also argued this the way you are doing now ;) - I'm not sure whether there is anything in it or not. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:46:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23498; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:42:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:42:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-204-238.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.204.238] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5881D1.893D1AA3 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 03:48:49 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KZPb-3.0._k5.W3FMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Lots of folks (myself included) have wandered down the trail of "field > propulsion" looking for some way to arrange crossed E and H fields on board > the ship so as to create stored linear momentum in the fields with the hope > that, as a result, the ship would take off in the opposite > direction. These efforts are doomed to failure by a little-known > phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which > spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any > net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further > explanation/references for this if you're interested). Please do. > > > The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving > UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws > of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where > you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD > to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of > physics. Well please explain how this would apply to what I presented. > > > Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area > of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our > spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the > Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space > analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as > reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. > > John, you are really covering too much ground in your > posts. Each of your points deserves separate consideration and discussion. Perhaps... > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Inc. > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 > Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 > 512-346-3017 (FAX) > http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 14:57:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27672; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:52:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:52:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-204-238.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.204.238] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A588432.B650BE15 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 03:58:59 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EzMbM1.0.Gm6.1DFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:08 PM 1/7/1, John Berry wrote: > >Horace Heffner wrote: > [snip] > >> phi = L*I/N > >> > >> = (u0 N A I)/d > >> > >> = (u0 A I) (N/d) > >> > >> It is the term N/d that is significant to this discussion. Phi is > >> inversely proportional to d. The core doesn't actually "conduct" the phi. > >> > > > >Sorry, I am no good with math, I have no idea what that shows. > >I do believe that you could have enough flux conduct down the steel, > >though I can't say > >for sure > [snip] > > John, it is wonderful that you have an interest in science, an open mind, > and obvious creative talent. However, I can't see how you have any hope of > understanding physics without at least a high school freshman level of > math. Math is used to predict, not to understand. It can be used where there is no understanding at all. Please tell me where math is needed? I believe that as I don't use math I get a better understanding because I have to consider everything as it is and I can't use shorts cuts. It sucks when it comes to engineering things, or when you want a quantitive answer. > I can tell you from my own experience that it is very worthwhile to > buy some math and physics books at second hand stores (Bishop's Attic has > been the best source for me.) They are generally about $0.50 to $1.00. > Find one that looks to be about at your level and that has answers in the > back of the book. Do the problems. You might be surprised at how far you > can get in 6 months to a year. > > It is not where you are or how fast you are moving but rather where you are > going that counts. > > If you want to spring for some money, go to a local college bookstore and > look for a math text that has a corresponding student solutions manual. > The student solutions manual not only gives you the final answers, but the > complete solutions, which helps if you get stuck. Better yet, take a > course at a night school or community college. You definitely don't have > to worry about your brain being poluted in a math class. If you take some > classical physics courses or self study the material, you really don't have > to worry too much about brain pollution there either - everything you learn > is fairly well proven within the normal macro world, and provides a > necessary basis for seeing what modern physics has to say about things. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:18:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01789; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: <006201c078ff$e8c9b260$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: "vortex" Cc: Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:16:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"yqyc3.0.pR.VWFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An interesting paper about it is at: http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/physics/9908048 "Propulsion Without Propellent Mass; a Time-Varying Electromagnetic Field Effect" by Benoît T. Guay They pulse a couple coils, to get much more thrust than the Poynting vector from a CW radiated wave provides. Could you get me those references Scott? > - little-known >phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which >spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any >net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further >explanation/references for this if you're interested). Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:19:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA01919; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:13:54 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 10:13:18 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA01865 Resent-Message-ID: <"2dHBr1.0.tT.oWFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:34:30 -0900: [snip] >>As far as I am concerned, it is pure science fact, as I have personally >>witnessed it in action. >[snip] > >What did you witness Robin? [snip] A reflective metal craft slowly drifting sideways through the air. The craft was shaped like this: . . . . . . . (fill in between the dots) i.e. approximately bell shaped. There was no sound, and no evidence of any exhaust (neither plume nor heat distortion). Had this been a normal aircraft, it would have dropped out of the sky like a brick. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:22:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA03970; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:19:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:19:02 -0800 Message-ID: <01C078BD.47F16B90.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Ph.D's learn't Bias Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:19:42 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"biLrn.0.wz.bbFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Lynn, you must have a Ph.D, preventing you from seeing the creativity involved in coining new metaphors (note preferred construction of the plural of "metaphor" ;-) Notwithstanding the above, I agree with you that those who criticize a system or body of knowledge would do well to not display their ignorance in the process. On the other hand, poor command of grammar, syntax or spelling is not in itself evidence of lack of other knowledge (though in this case there is ample corroborating evidence) Dan Quickert On Sunday, January 07, 2001 12:38 PM, Lynn Kurtz wrote: > Ph.D.'s learn't bias?? > What the hell does "learn't" mean? > > JB> Having a Ph.D means the person went and learnt what is already known and got lots of what > JB> the establishment teaches. > > JB> Most people don't break out of their "Educational Baggage". > JB> They don't explore where they have been told not to, They "Tow the line" > > Do you have any data to support your baloney? Where I come from, Ph.D. > students in fact are required to do original work to get their Ph.D. > in the first place. > > "Tow" the line?? If you are going to spout anti-establishment drivel, > you might try at least to get your metaphores right. > > --Lynn > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:24:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA04854; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:21:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:21:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-204-238.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.204.238] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A588ADE.66D466CD ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 04:27:27 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010103085650.03f8ac00 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010103184753.00aa5378@earthtech.org> <3A540EDD.F9D7FEB0@ihug.co.nz> <5.0.1.4.0.20010104100606.0384a1b0@earthtech.org> <9fnh5tclapimnj05v10q90rlegjrgbuhbg@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jHGcj2.0.kB1.jdFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I intended both coils to be part of a craft. The second coil clearly has thrust placed on it, the 1st coil turns off and is just an open coil by the time the wave from the 2nd coil hits, Alternately you could reverse it's field so that as the field from the 2nd coil hits it is thrust in the same direction as the 2nd coil increasing the thrust. Obviously turning the 2nd coil off or reversing it's polarity before the field hits and so on. Now as I understand it Scott, you seem to think that somehow thrust will be placed on one of the coils in the opposite direction to an equal magnitude. Do you think that thrust will be placed on the 1st coil? May I ask how the magnetic field from the 2nd coil is meant to effect the 1st coil if it is just an open coil of wire by the time it hits? If I can show you step by step why it should work, Can you please show me step by step why it won't? Rather than evoking some mysterious Field Momentum or Hidden Momentum. Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > In reply to Scott Little's message of Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:33:54 -0600: > [snip] > >This scenario DOES obey Newton's Laws perfectly provided you include in > >your considerations, the momentum stored in the propagating electromagnetic > >fields. The momentum imparted to the 2nd coil immediately following its > >energization is balanced by field momentum moving off towards the 1st coil. > > I think the point here is that the field momentum moving toward the 1st coil > never interacts with the vessel again, and in this sense represents the > momentum absorbed by the earth when a car drives across the surface. > Except that in this case the field momentum just propagates through space, > until it meets something with which it can interact. I think the important > question here is whether or not this field momentum represents the momentum > of photons, or is it perhaps something more? > > > > >Indeed it is often said that Newton's law of equal action-reaction is > >violated in electrodynamic scenarios but that is only true if you ignore > >the momentum stored in the fields. When the field momentum is included, > >Newton's laws are all satisfied perfectly (see Feynman Vol II, p. 26-5, and > >p. 27-11) > [snip] > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:34:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08090; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:30:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:30:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:38:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Resent-Message-ID: <"8LMqf2.0.F-1.MmFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:58 AM 1/8/1, John Berry wrote: >Math is used to predict, not to understand. It can be used where there is >no understanding >at all. >Please tell me where math is needed? > >I believe that as I don't use math I get a better understanding because I >have to consider >everything as it is and I can't use shorts cuts. > >It sucks when it comes to engineering things, or when you want a >quantitive answer. A key element of a scientific theory is the ability to predict what will happen in various circumstances. Without the ability to predict, sufficiently that those predictions can be tested, a theory is useless. In many cases, especially those where controls are not possible, only a quantitative prediction is useful. Many times the difference between one theory and another is merely a quantitative difference. Without the precision afforded by mathematics, no progress would be possible. Further, mathematics is the language off physics. Physical laws are often distilled into brief elegant equations. Without the ability to understand the equations, the meaning is lost. It might be possible to do some experiments with no language at all, but science is a sociological phenomenon. Language is required, and mathematics is one of the language requirements. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:42:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA11557; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:38:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 14:47:06 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Resent-Message-ID: <"me51X2.0.Uq2.ytFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:13 AM 1/8/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >There was no sound, and no evidence of any exhaust (neither plume nor heat >distortion). >Had this been a normal aircraft, it would have dropped out of the sky like a >brick. Wow! Though I dislike popularized UFO discussions, because they are nearly content free, I love first hand reports! I really enjoyed Paul R Hill's book, *Unconventional Flying Objects,* in which he gives a fantastic first hand report, and in depth engineering analysis of the possibilities of star travel. Have you written up a description of your sighting? I would love to hear about it. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 15:46:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA12790; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:41:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:41:38 -0800 Message-ID: <00d201c0790b$4e664420$ee8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: <3A5894B6.9E3A0248@pacbell.net> <005801c078f6$fd3a05a0$ee8f85ce@fjsparber> <3A58E798.F06A8CD9@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:37:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"S09f03.0.e73.nwFMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jones Beene To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 2:03 PM Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Jones Beene wrote: > Frederick Sparber wrote: > > > So can electrons. [enter the nucleus] See the work (CEBAF) of Jefferson Lab, > > www.jlab.org is doing with ~ 5 Gev electrons. > > Without sounding too Clintonesque about certain distinctions, just out of > curiosity, when is an accelerated electron no longer an "electron"? When it annihilates with a Positron. :-) OTOH, since Ee = mc^2 where Ee is the rest energy of the electron (8.19E-14 Joule) then mass m = 8.19E-14/c^2 = 9.1E-31 kg. c = 2.99725E8 meters/second, the vacuum light speed But, relativistic mass Mrel = Mo[(E'/Ee) + 1] = Mo/[1-(v^2/c^2)]^1/2 Thus at 0.510 Mev (8.19E-14 Joules) the relativistic mass of an electron (or any particle given a kinetic energy equal to it's rest energy) is twice it's rest mass and it's velocity is ~ 87% of the speed of light c. This is what makes it tough to distinguish Light Leptons from regular electrons. :-) So at 5 to 12 Gev, CEBAF is turning them suckers into "particles" ~5 to ~12 times the ~ 0.93 Gev rest mass/energy of a proton, which points to the ridiculous pursuit of understanding the Nature of Particles by the High Energy Physics Crooks. :-) = > > Isn't it true that when you get up to a Gev, then your former electron has a mass > greater than a proton and at 5 your new particle is looking like an Li nucleus. Yes!! and when it hits something, you can create all kinds of "NEW PARTICLES" at the same time and get a Nobel for it, to boot. :-) > > I notice that CEBAF is adding on a 12 Gev enhancement, so pretty soon that C target > will start looking light by comparison. They might have to start using special > cigars as targets. At Carbon 12 energy they'll probably start producing "Fullerenes" and blame it on Diesel Smoke. Regards, Frederick > > Jones > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:08:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA19220; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:02:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:10:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Transmutation by electrons Resent-Message-ID: <"65QIk3.0.Bi4.DEGMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:03 PM 1/7/1, Jones Beene wrote: >Frederick Sparber wrote: > >> So can electrons. [enter the nucleus] See the work (CEBAF) of Jefferson Lab, >> www.jlab.org is doing with ~ 5 Gev electrons. > >Without sounding too Clintonesque about certain distinctions, just out of >curiosity, when is an accelerated electron no longer an "electron"? > >Isn't it true that when you get up to a Gev, then your former electron has >a mass >greater than a proton and at 5 your new particle is looking like an Li nucleus. Yes, but charge is conserved. In a collision new paticles can be formed with a mass of 5 Gev or more, but the net charge will still be -1 if the target is neutral. Relativistic observational effects can either increase or decrease the apparent charge, depnding on the angle of observation, but it will always appear negative. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:25:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA27016; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:23:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:23:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-204-238.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.204.238] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A589971.9718EB1F ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 05:29:37 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XlbNp1.0.zb6.2YGMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 3:58 AM 1/8/1, John Berry wrote: > > >Math is used to predict, not to understand. It can be used where there is > >no understanding > >at all. > >Please tell me where math is needed? > > > >I believe that as I don't use math I get a better understanding because I > >have to consider > >everything as it is and I can't use shorts cuts. > > > >It sucks when it comes to engineering things, or when you want a > >quantitive answer. > > A key element of a scientific theory is the ability to predict what will > happen in various circumstances. Without the ability to predict, > sufficiently that those predictions can be tested, a theory is useless. In > many cases, especially those where controls are not possible, only a > quantitative prediction is useful. Many times the difference between one > theory and another is merely a quantitative difference. Without the > precision afforded by mathematics, no progress would be possible. I agree, as I said it is bad not having suffient math skills when doing experimentation, and quantative projection is important. However it does not mean you can't understand the universe. > > > Further, mathematics is the language off physics. Physical laws are often > distilled into brief elegant equations. True, but that is not a case of understanding. And sometimes it can make things seem too simple. > Without the ability to understand > the equations, the meaning is lost. Understanding equasions gives meaning to equasions, not to the universe. > It might be possible to do some > experiments with no language at all, but science is a sociological > phenomenon. Language is required, and mathematics is one of the language > requirements. Not quite, Not for theory and understanding. It is important in simplifying, and projecting. it is important when it comes to quantitative analysis. Mathematics just projects what we already know. It is useful but not nessasary to understanding the universe. I would like to get a better understanding of it, but don't have the time right now. > > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:50:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA01163; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:46:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:46:24 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c07914$6c1b2900$2e8f85ce fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <005201c078f5$bad1b4c0$ee8f85ce fjsparber> <0f1701c078f8$34d3eb60$62584118@mtwh1.on.wave.home.com> Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:42:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"KFO3f2.0.4I.WtGMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Colin Quinney To: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Colin wrote, > Hi Frederick, > > The time and expense required to building it and placing it in a vacuum > chamber with measurement tools enclosed is high. Too high for my budget, Colin. > Could not we design a less > costly intermediate experiment? What if we enclosed the "Thruster" inside of > a thermally insulated box? According to your calculations, 1000 watts ==> > one tenth of a pound of thrust. Could we measure any possible weight change > before the heat escapes from the box? The air currents would still do you in, Colin > And if that is a closed system, how do you design an experiment > that's "open" (?) Put it in a vacuum chamber. :-) Best Regards, Frederick > > Colin > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 16:57:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03082; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:52:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:52:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New electrolysis experiment Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:51:53 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA03050 Resent-Message-ID: <"SWSDw3.0._l.CzGMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Perhaps a mix of 30% LiOH and 70% RbOH with a Ni cathode would be interesting. The Rb would be a Mills catalyst, while the Li would be a clean nuclear fuel. H + Rb+ -> Hy + Rb++ and Hy + Li7 -> 2 * He4 + 17.3 MeV or Hy + Li6 -> He4 + He3 + 4 MeV The light elements seem more likely to yield an alpha particle under such circumstances than the mid-range elements (which is why I chose Li). I'm guessing here that because Rb has many more electrons than Li, any severely shrunken hydrinos will find it easier to find their way to a Li nucleus than to a well protected Rb nucleus. The high Rb percentage OTOH increases the likelihood of hydrino formation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 17:45:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17227; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:38:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:38:07 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010107194156.00b22ab0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 19:47:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-Reply-To: <3A57FE34.D82E553F ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"hxeKc3.0.5D4._dHMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is very much like a previous discussion concerning "Suppression" I agree that the bondage of classical education is difficult to break. Largely the problem here is that many of the educators are unable to function in the "Real world" Then they further become bound by an overbearing administration that really only understands the business aspect of education. At 06:27 PM 1/7/01 +1300, you wrote: > >On the other hand, just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn't mean > that >the person has not >studied a chunk of the universe fairly deeply. > >Having a Ph.D means the person went and learnt what is already known and >got lots of what >the establishment teaches. Most people don't break out of their >"Educational Baggage". >They don't explore where they have been told not to, They "Tow the line" > >That is a sweeping generalization of course, that is not true of all, just >most. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 17:47:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA17911; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:40:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:40:18 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010107194811.00b57850 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 19:49:14 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers In-Reply-To: <3A58832F.675F5D87 ix.netcom.com> References: <200101041226456.SM00309 ws45.pm3b1.hubserv.com> <3A54EFC9.87F5CA7E ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"X58ED.0.mN4.1gHMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Edmund!!! Looks like a wonderful starting place. My education on the dirty details of cold fusion begins here.... At 08:54 AM 1/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >This is being resent in case it was not previously posted by Vortex. > >Edmund Storms wrote: > > > Check out http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html for some of my papers. > > > > Ed Storms > > > > erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. > > > > > > Some internet links I emailed (including the Economist's reference > to a > > > second aether theory, and JR's meeting summaries on Vortex) were > given to an AP > > > reporter who 'reports on physics'. No guessing please. Let him choose > his pace > > > or nouveau rejection. He 'scoffed, read intently, and expressed > surprise at all > > > the activity'. > > > > > > Now I think physics is in an 'until death do us part' period > which cannot > > > be changed by reporters or reliable CF experiments, but still I will > mail a > > > half dozen recent * reliable experiments * - kick it up a notch - > papers (no > > > guarantee that they will be passed along or read), if I can find them > in a > > > library or someone mails me a copy. I have one Mizuno, many Infinite > Energies, > > > would like Iwamura, do not have access to Fusion Technology, and will > visit the > > > library next week. Suggestions welcome. > > > > > > I'll put an email summary by/about SL on top if he gets the pulse > to work > > > anywhere. That's the PdCF > > > electrolytic reliability experiment. Either that succeeds or the > electrolyte > > > experiment is dead, except for solution additions, e.g., noble gases, and > > > modifications e.g., Iwamura, Mizuno). > > > > > > If you need the snail address, send an email. Thanks. > > > > > > John Neergaard > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:08:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA23324; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 17:58:17 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010107200141.00a4aa20 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:07:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion In-Reply-To: <006201c078ff$e8c9b260$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA23298 Resent-Message-ID: <"Mm2pq3.0.Mi5.uwHMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Have any of you tried to set up an IPE "Internal Propulsion Engine" This is a way to mechanically unbalance inertia using centripetal force. These gadgets actually work and produce thrusts that are in some cases better then 70% efficient. Inertial violation (if I correctly understand it) is very simple using a mechanical device. The problem here is that there are usually a great deal of moving parts to ice up or wear out... making it a bad idea for space travel At 05:16 PM 1/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >An interesting paper about it is at: >http://xxx.lanl.gov/html/physics/9908048 "Propulsion Without Propellent >Mass; a Time-Varying Electromagnetic Field Effect" by Benoît T. Guay > > >They pulse a couple coils, to get much more thrust than the >Poynting vector from a CW radiated wave provides. Could you get me those >references Scott? > > > - little-known > >phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which > >spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any > >net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further > >explanation/references for this if you're interested). > > >Scott > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:16:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA26347; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:07:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:07:41 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010107200930.00a4f570 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:16:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"29SQM3.0.WR6.i3IMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I periodically see odd things in the sky... but I live off the runway at the Fort Worth Lockheed factory.... We have some real cool aircraft out there... By the way... noise does not seem to be a problem with jets any more... nor does forward momentum... I have seen a film of a vertically oriented bell shaped object (UFO) This is not among the sometimes strange Lockheed toys that I have seen. Was this object oriented vertically (pointing skyward) or laying horizontally? Just curious At 10:13 AM 1/8/01 +1100, you wrote: >In reply to Horace Heffner's message of Sun, 7 Jan 2001 13:34:30 -0900: >[snip] > >>As far as I am concerned, it is pure science fact, as I have personally > >>witnessed it in action. > >[snip] > > > >What did you witness Robin? >[snip] >A reflective metal craft slowly drifting sideways through the air. The craft >was shaped like this: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 18:34:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02228; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:16:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010107202415.00a44840 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:24:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: RE: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-Reply-To: <01C078BD.47F16B90.dequickert ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Mf_X23.0.iY.ZBIMw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:19 PM 1/7/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > > Do you have any data to support your baloney? Where I come from, Ph.D. > > students in fact are required to do original work to get their Ph.D. > > in the first place. > > How about some witness testimony :-) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 21:40:28 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA29848; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:38:44 -0800 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 23:40:52 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Hidden Momentum In-reply-to: <3A5881D1.893D1AA3 ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"4jjvW.0.DI7.Z9LMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, I've posted a concise explanation of the origin of hidden momentum here: http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html This explanation utilizes an incompressible charged fluid as the current carrier. The hidden momentum then comes from the fact that the difference in fluid pressures caused by the E field creates a net power flow, which (via E-mc^2) is equivalent to a net momentum imbalance. Only one ref (Hnizdo) is mentioned, a fairly recent one. But that ref will get you to all the others dating back to the 1960's when hidden momentum was discovered (i.e. first written about) by James Shockley (of diode fame). David J Griffiths in his new book "Introduction to Electrodynamics", 3rd edition, gives another version of this explanation on p 521, which involves quite a different type of current carrier. He employs non-interacting charges moving freely around a loop of piping. Amazingly an entirely different-looking mechanism comes into play which produces exactly the same "hidden momentum"! Under the influence of the E field, the non-interacting charges move faster on the "downhill" side of the loop than they do on the uphill side. But, since current has to be constant at all points around the loop, the fast moving charges are more spread out than the slow moving ones. At first glance you'd expect the momenta of these two streams to precisely cancel each other...but because of relativistic effects, the mass of the fast moving charges is enhanced over that of the slower moving charges. The result works out to be exactly equal and opposite to the momentum stored in the ExH fields! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 21:50:36 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA01805; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:49:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:49:09 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:48:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <4.2.0.58.20010107200930.00a4f570@postoffice.swbell.net> In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010107200930.00a4f570 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA01717 Resent-Message-ID: <"xJcRT3.0.7S.LJLMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Sun, 07 Jan 2001 20:16:40 -0600: [snip] >I have seen a film of a vertically oriented bell shaped object (UFO) This >is not among the sometimes strange Lockheed toys that I have seen. Was >this object oriented vertically (pointing skyward) or laying horizontally? Vertical, as drawn. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 7 21:59:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04528; Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:57:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:57:21 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: FW: [FG]: Transmutation by electrons Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:57:22 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"BfaCJ.0.c61.0RLMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: xplorer [mailto:xplorer indo.net.id] Sent: 2001 January 08, Monday 04:13 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: [FG]: Transmutation by electrons Actually thought about: AG107 + e-(30Kv) to Pd107 (6.5E+6 yr), as the cost of Pd for experiments is absurd. (I know, its not the stable isotope, but wth...) cheers > It works so badly, that the energy cost is going to be hundreds > of times the > value of any metal produced. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 03:21:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA18584; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:14:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:14:06 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c07964$97ca9360$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: "vortex" Subject: Re: Success in scientific theory (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 05:17:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"atzZv.0.IY4.z3QMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Possibly cultural brainwashing the cause When you twist the letter of the law to implement the spirit of tyrannical discrimination and oppression, by punishing politically incorrect awareness and rewarding reflexive political correctness, you also train minds to pay attention to emotionally charged or loaded names, rather than nature and patterns, which lead to those dangerous politicaly-incorrect conclusions. If you are not such a dumb toady that you realize you must play the dumb frog, you don't get the Phd sheepskin or promotion in the dysfunctional system. If you are clever enough to realize what looks like, smells like and, alas, even tastes like dog shit is, indeed dog shit (or a rose or duck, whatever), then you probably wont stay for a second helping. If you realize your playing a frog and are willing to tolerate it, then you are a politician and like to play with people more than things, and will end up in management rather than research. Thus the mob gets what it deserves. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 03:23:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA19877; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:23:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:23:11 -0800 Message-ID: <01C07922.748499B0.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Success in scientific theory (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:23:58 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ak4Ha.0.Rs4.VCQMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Monday, January 08, 2001 3:18 AM, Scott Stephens wrote: > Possibly cultural brainwashing... [snip] >... dog shit ... [snip] Could we move this to Vortexb-l, please? haven't you read any of the recent posts by Bill Beaty about content? On Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:29 PM, William Beaty wrote: > > How about this: > > DISCUSSING POLITICS IS FORBIDDEN. However, single messages which > directly involve the politics of unorthodox science are tolerated. > Vortex-L subscribers must not reply to such messages. If people want > to discuss any sort of politics, they should go to vortexB. > Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 03:34:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA21796; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:34:13 -0800 Message-ID: <01C07923.FEE91BC0.dequickert ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Success in scientific theory (fwd) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:35:02 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hFo6D1.0.UK5.rMQMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oops... minor apologies in order here. Just realized that this thread was started by Bill. Grumpiness index is high, back to lurk mode for me. On Monday, January 08, 2001 3:24 AM, Dan Quickert wrote: > > > On Monday, January 08, 2001 3:18 AM, Scott Stephens wrote: > > Possibly cultural brainwashing... [snip] > >... dog shit ... [snip] > > Could we move this to Vortexb-l, please? > haven't you read any of the recent posts by Bill Beaty about content? > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 03:50:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA24830; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 03:50:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-10.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.10] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A593A64.CF7B340E ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:56:21 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hidden Momentum References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zANDS.0.u36.mbQMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > OK, I've posted a concise explanation of the origin of hidden momentum here: > > http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html > > This explanation utilizes an incompressible charged fluid as the current > carrier. Just so long as you realize "incompressible" is totally impossible. (without breaking speed of light) Ok, so I'm unclear on something, is there a negatively charged stationary fluid? Otherwise the electric field from the loop will disrupt the electric field you intend to apply. I'm unsure of the orientation of your electric field? Is it coming out of the screen or going down the screen. If it goes down the screen so the E and B fields are crossed. The moving charges will not only be deflected downward due to the electric field but will see the electric field they are immersed in as a magnetic field. I can't see how the current loop would be thrust to the right. > The hidden momentum then comes from the fact that the difference > in fluid pressures caused by the E field Please show me how the electric field creates a pressure difference. Also if something were incompressible it would be at an infinite pressure. (for pressure changes you need "some" compressibility) > creates a net power flow Sorry but I am ignorant of this term. > , which > (via E-mc^2) is equivalent to a net momentum imbalance. Only one ref > (Hnizdo) is mentioned, a fairly recent one. But that ref will get you to > all the others dating back to the 1960's when hidden momentum was > discovered (i.e. first written about) by James Shockley (of diode fame). > > David J Griffiths in his new book "Introduction to Electrodynamics", 3rd > edition, gives another version of this explanation on p 521, which involves > quite a different type of current carrier. He employs non-interacting > charges moving freely around a loop of piping. Amazingly an entirely > different-looking mechanism comes into play which produces exactly the same > "hidden momentum"! Under the influence of the E field, the non-interacting > charges move faster on the "downhill" side of the loop than they do on the > uphill side. Oh, is this how yours works? but how does this effect the flow of the charged fluid? You can't have the fluid travel faster or slower at any point in the pipe unless the diameter of the pipe changes. Unless your talking about his non-interacting charges which sounds crazy. > But, since current has to be constant at all points around > the loop Ok, I should have read ahead. > , the fast moving charges are more spread out than the slow moving > ones. True, Also evident in a circuit with a vacuum tube, the charges in the tube move at a high speeds where they are slow in the wire. However your fluid is non-compressible, should I also assume it's density can't be reduced? Then the only way you will increase speed in one part is changing the pipe diameter. (or change the fluid density, or having each element of the fluid non-interacting with the rest, which would not be a fluid) > At first glance you'd expect the momenta of these two streams to > precisely cancel each other...but because of relativistic effects, the mass > of the fast moving charges is enhanced over that of the slower moving > charges. The result works out to be exactly equal and opposite to the > momentum stored in the ExH fields! You lost me right at the start with the momentum the the ExH fields. How is momentum stored in a magnetic field at right angles to an electric field? And how does this create a thrust to the right? Now due to relativistic mass increase I am starting to understand that might create greater pressure in the bottom half of the loop with a compressible fluid, however I can't see how that creates a thrust to the left. But most importantly what does this have to do with what I presented? My presentation has no electric fields, Only needs motion of charges to create a magnetic field, And even then you could create the magnetic field with just the "spin" of electrons, which is barley motion. So does hidden momentum refer to the momentum hidden in relativistic mass increase? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 06:33:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA04423; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:32:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 06:32:21 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010108093144.00aa3008 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 09:32:21 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Reproducibile CF papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"wskui3.0.w41.rzSMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. There is not much on line. We have miscellaneous links at: http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/links.html For pure CF only, see: http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html For recent work in Japan, see: http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 07:31:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA26868; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:29:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 07:29:36 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010108084947.038c8ab0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 09:27:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Hidden Momentum In-Reply-To: <3A593A64.CF7B340E ihug.co.nz> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ohTnc.0.gZ6.WpTMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:56 PM 1/8/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: >Just so long as you realize "incompressible" is totally impossible. right...it's just approaching arbitrarily close to incompressibility. That's the case for the hidden momentum described in http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html >Ok, so I'm unclear on something, is there a negatively charged stationary >fluid? Otherwise the electric field from the loop will disrupt the >electric field you intend to apply. You can ignore the perturbation of the field caused by the charged fluid...i.e. make the external E field real strong. Yes, it goes "down the page" as drawn, not out of the page (if it DID come out of the page, the you would see a symbol that looks like a head-on view of the tip of an arrow). >If it goes down the screen so the E and B fields are crossed. The moving >charges will not only be deflected downward due to the electric field but >will see the electric field they are immersed in as a magnetic field. Not "deflected" downwards but simply pushed/forced downwards. Since the fluid is incompressible, this is what causes the higher pressure at the bottom of the loop. Since the E field is constant and the charges are moving at constant velocity through it, there is no time variation to the E field seen by the charges so they do not interpret it as a magnetic field. >I can't see how the current loop would be thrust to the right. The crossed E and B fields produce a net linear momentum, the same kind of momentum that photons carry only this one is stationary. The naive thinking (which I embraced for YEARS before discovering hidden momentum) is that, as a result of this field momentum (which points to the right), the current loop (and capacitor plates producing the E field (not shown)) should start moving to the left to conserve momentum. If that were the case, we'd have a space drive. However, it's not the case...the hidden momentum arises to cancel the field momentum and the whole system remains perfectly stationary. >Please show me how the electric field creates a pressure difference. It simply exerts a force on the charged fluid. The situation is exactly analogous to the way the water pressure is higher at the bottom of a vertical tank in a gravitational field. >Also if something were incompressible it would be at an infinite pressure. only IF you actually compressed an incompressible fluid. >(for pressure changes you need "some" compressibility) This is not correct. All you need for a pressure increase is a force...i.e. nothing has to actually move. > > creates a net power flow > >Sorry but I am ignorant of this term. a moving fluid's velocity multiplied by its pressure equals the power density (watts per unit area) moving through the pipe carrying the fluid. It comes from the definition of work = force * distance. Because of the pressure difference in the upper and lower leg, the left and right power flows are not balanced. The net, which points to the left exactly cancels the "Poynting flow" of power to the right that is present in the ExH fields but that's another issue that need not concern us right now. > > David J Griffiths in his new book "Introduction to Electrodynamics", 3rd > > edition, gives another version of this explanation on p 521, which involves > > quite a different type of current carrier. NOTE that I am now introducing a DIFFERENT example which also shows hidden momentum. >Oh, is this how yours works? but how does this effect the flow of the >charged fluid? no, this is for the DIFFERENT example, given by Griffiths, where there is no fluid and the current is composed of non-interacting charges circulating around the loop. >Now due to relativistic mass increase I am starting to understand that >might create greater pressure in the bottom half of the loop with a >compressible fluid, however I can't see how that creates a thrust to the left. First, you're mixing the TWO examples. In the incompressible fluid model, its the pressure difference that creates the momentum imbalance. In the Griffiths' case, with the non-interacting charges, there is no pressure difference and its the relativistic mass increase that creates the same momentum imbalance. Frankly, I am astounded that both of these seemingly different mechanisms produce the same result and I am expecting any day now for this to produce a profound insight into relativity (which I sorely need....:) Second, it doesn't produce a thrust...only a net momentum. If that momentum weren't perfectly balanced, then the creation of that momentum would have to result in a thrust....but it never gets to that point. >But most importantly what does this have to do with what I presented? >My presentation has no electric fields, Only needs motion of charges to >create a magnetic field, And even then you could create the magnetic field >with just the "spin" of electrons, which is barley motion. You brought this issue up while we were discussing your proposal on Dec 7th: >>If it is really recognized that you do not need to throw mass in the >>opposite direction for propulsion then why do so many in conventional >>physics say the only way to propel a space craft is by ejection of mass >>and not field propulsion. I thought we needed to get "field propulsion" cleared up before proceeding. If you will now accept that there is no such thing as "field propulsion" and that the only way to propel oneself is to emit some form of mass/energy, then the solution to your proposal becomes obvious: since there is no mass being ejected, the thrust that is generated must be the result of EM radiation emitted in the opposite direction. That doesn't mean it won't work...it just clarifies the mechanism by which it does work and allows us to analyze it properly. >So does hidden momentum refer to the momentum hidden in relativistic mass >increase? In the Griffiths' case, yes. However in the incompressible fluid case, there is no differential mass increase because all of the fluid is moving at the same velocity around the loop. It's the net power flow, converted into momentum using E = mc^2 that results in hidden momentum! BTW, W. Shockley (who first published on hidden momentum) is credited with the invention of the transistor...not a diode (my mistake). Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 13:07:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA15950; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 12:43:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New electrolysis experiment Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 07:42:49 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA15911 Resent-Message-ID: <"G113J1.0.4v3.mPYMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Perhaps a mix of 30% LiOH and 70% RbOH with a Ni cathode would be interesting. The Rb would be a Mills catalyst, while the Li would be a clean nuclear fuel. H + Rb+ -> Hy + Rb++ and Hy + Li7 -> 2 * He4 + 17.3 MeV or Hy + Li6 -> He4 + He3 + 4 MeV The light elements seem more likely to yield an alpha particle under such circumstances than the mid-range elements (which is why I chose Li). I'm guessing here that because Rb has many more electrons than Li, any severely shrunken hydrinos will find it easier to find their way to a Li nucleus than to a well protected Rb nucleus. The high Rb percentage OTOH increases the likelihood of hydrino formation. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 13:40:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA28565; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:14:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:14:42 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c079b8$cb0c7af0$0c6cd626 varisys.com> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:20:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"yS3C-.0.lz6.0tYMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >The only time two things are ATTRACTED is when their movement > together LOWERS the total system energy...right? > This rule does not appear to work in an obvious way for either magnets or polarizable materials. I can describe simple experiments that illustrate that attraction of a soft magnetic material to a magnet increases magnetic field energy while also outputting mechanical energy. Perhaps with the correct formulation that included the internal energy of the materials your rule could be made to work. Magnetic dipoles appear to source energy if a field of the same polarity is externally applied. Naturally, this is what is happening when the internal dipoles align as a soft magnetic material is magnetized. There appears to be no way to keep this energy sourced by magnets under easily testable conditions, I have looked at many specific cases both theoretically and experimentally. There is a theoretical possibility of keeping some of this energy with special materials and under extreme conditions of high frequency and high fields, but current technology may not be sufficient to achieve this. Perhaps the VTA/SQM provides the proper conditions through new physics. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 14:18:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07038; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:47:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:47:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c079d6$3e1b1b60$9b79ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: On Ph.D.s Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:59:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"jUjOK2.0.fj1.gLZMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, My comments on Ph.D.s from years of close observation (and some of my best friends are Ph.D.s). I'm a lowly BSEE, so I can be 'objective'. Anyone who goes through the grueling work of getting a Ph.D. is deserving of respect but not awe. I spent 12 years at the Sarnoff Center, the central research labs of RCA, in its sunset years. I held the title of "Member Technical Staff" in common with people who had mainly MS and PhD degrees. Some were difficult and cranky, others genteel and kind, soft-spoken but with overwhelming competence. Just like inhabitants of vortex. One of my Ph.D. friends confided that to get a Ph.D. one does not have to be brilliant, just tenacious; to which another added "and obedient". My Russian émigré friends, Mr. & Mrs. Ph.D., note that in Russia one first gets a BS degree and goes to work, publishing papers and getting some respect before being admitted to a Ph.D. program. A Ph.D. is supposed to master received opinion (the orals) and then undertake an original problem (not solved in a textbook or in the literature) under the guidance of a thesis advisor. He produces a thesis, which for once in his life has to be correct in spelling, grammar, and format (and no erasures or corrections, before the days of word processors), defends it before a committee, and gets his union card, certifying that he is a 'member of the club', which opens many doors for him. He is now authorized to inflict the process on his students. The above is a charicature. In some respects, the process is a rite of passage. Earlier in this discussion, someone lamented the accomplishments of remembered Drs. and Professors, and wondered where all the brilliant ones went. They are still with us, just diluted by industrial activity. To an employer, and advanced degree meant that the candidate has some drive and ability to work on his own and solve problems, and so was a better bet than a BS, particularly if the employer's interest matched the thesis subject. At Sarnoff, to be hired into a MS slot out of school required a MS or PhD. There were Associates with MS degrees. After five years or so, the distinction between degrees tended to fade -- at the time I joined the Sarnoff staff I already had some 25 years in senior engineering positions elsewhere in the company. A PhD does not have to be creative or inventive or inspired. The thesis problem can be any unsolved problem, usually some pet of the thesis advisor. If one has a passion for cold fusion, for example, one might have to shop around to find a thesis advisor. The advantage of requiring that one master received opinion is that an untrained person may believe he has discovered some new phenomenon when he is wallowing in ignorance of what is well known. We have see this over and over again in the vortex forum and I won't elaborate on it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 14:19:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA07475; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:48:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:48:41 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01c079d6$6cc9ca60$9b79ccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: On Human 'Evil' Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:50:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"4ZGg21.0.hq1.tMZMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Vo, Despite all 'evidence' to the contrary I do not believe that most humans are rotten in the core as some commentators would have us believe. Most of us have characteristics which lead to sub-optimum behavior, but this is not 'evil'. We all try to survive and promote the survival of our symbiotes as we consider these to be. Our problems arise from limited understanding and the fixed ideas about what "we" are which we get in our childhood. So we divide the world into Us and Them without realizing our mutual dependency. I believe that some of the Us-Them dichotomy arises from an extension of the immune system, wherein every organism or group must have some mechanism for detecting and removing "Thems" which will disrupt the harmony of the cell, organism, group, nation, etc. Then there are autoimmune diseases in organisms and civil wars and prejudice in the body politic. However, "Thems" also bring diversity and the ability to meet changing conditions, so "Us" needs an ever-expanding definition. Language and symbolism enable humans to manipulate concepts as objects which results in a new pathology of separation and name-calling and bloody wars over religious symbols. This is still not 'evil', but it is enough to make the angels weep. Social engineering toward some utopian vision usually creates more problems for the vision spawns rules which never quite fit the complexities of real situations. There is no system of economics and politics and religion which cannot be corrupted. Computer simulations of 'life' give insight into the complexities of interactions. Games are among those studied, extending beyond the simple games analyzed decades ago. Out of this has emerged the mathematics of altruism, which shows that in the long run altruism pays off in survival of groups even in the presence of 'bad guys'. Altruistic behavior is seen not only in humans but in 'wild' populations. Few people are consciously and deliberately evil -- even these are often in subjective battles with internal demons which they confuse with the external world. The insidious evil is the categorization of 'them', who don't count, who are numbers, symbols, not our brothers and sisters. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 14:22:43 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12686; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:04:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:04:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010108165259.00aa99b8 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 17:02:03 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Nature (the journal) strikes again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sJf261.0.x53.XbZMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is an extract of an article written by a Michael Fumento, who wrote a book in 1993 titled, "The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS: How A Tragedy Has Been Distorted by the Media and Partisan Politics." I do not know much about the book, but I think it is incorrect, based on the subsequent development of AIDS in Africa. The hypothesis may have been wrong, but it did not deserve to be treated the way it was, as described below. - Jed Quote from "Exploding Myths," By Michael Fumento, National Review, December 13, 1993 Probably the most prestigious science journal in the world is the British magazine Nature. Nature's view of Myth ran quite early, something journals will do when they are making a conscious effort to affect how a book will be received. The reviewer was Duncan Campbell, who, among many other things, asserted: Only a writer whose prejudices deny humanity could write in such bad taste as this: "Although AIDS is no joke, there is good news and bad news about the length of HIV infectiousness ... the 'good news' is that the great majority, and perhaps almost all, of HIV-infected persons will develop debilitating symptoms or die." In fact, what the book says is: The "good news" here is actually terrible news for anyone infected: Originally, it was thought that only a small percentage of those infected with the virus would go on to develop the disease. While this was reassuring to infected persons, it made the long-term outlook for the spread of the disease look bad because it meant that large numbers of healthy persons would be spreading the virus to others indefinitely. But a consensus of opinion has now formed that the great majority, and perhaps almost all, of HIV-infected persons will develop debilitating symptoms or die. How different, I wonder, is this from taking a statement like, "Judaism is not a gutter religion" and presenting it as "Judaism is . .. a gutter religion"? There is no nice term for what Campbell did. He lied. He lied blatantly, and he lied often. What's really remarkable, however, is that an esteemed scientific journal such as Nature should assign a nonscientist such as Duncan Campbell to review the book at all. Campbell's only AIDS background is as a homosexual AIDS activist. . . . [To be fair, I should point out that Fumento is not a scientist, either. - JR] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 15:25:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA32573; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:52:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 14:52:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-211.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.211] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A59D591.6AE5DDC5 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 03:58:26 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Space Drive Re: Hidden Momentum References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010108084947.038c8ab0@earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JSj3O.0.oy7.eIaMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 04:56 PM 1/8/01 +1300, John Berry wrote: > > >Just so long as you realize "incompressible" is totally impossible. > > right...it's just approaching arbitrarily close to > incompressibility. That's the case for the hidden momentum described in > > http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html Ok. > > > >Ok, so I'm unclear on something, is there a negatively charged stationary > >fluid? Otherwise the electric field from the loop will disrupt the > >electric field you intend to apply. > > You can ignore the perturbation of the field caused by the charged > fluid...i.e. make the external E field real strong. Ok > Yes, it goes "down the > page" as drawn, not out of the page (if it DID come out of the page, the > you would see a symbol that looks like a head-on view of the tip of an arrow). I figured as much, but wanted to be sure. > > > >If it goes down the screen so the E and B fields are crossed. The moving > >charges will not only be deflected downward due to the electric field but > >will see the electric field they are immersed in as a magnetic field. > > Not "deflected" downwards but simply pushed/forced downwards. Since the > fluid is incompressible, this is what causes the higher pressure at the > bottom of the loop. Since the E field is constant and the charges are > moving at constant velocity through it, there is no time variation to the E > field seen by the charges so they do not interpret it as a magnetic field. The charges are moving through an electric field, Of course they will see a magnetic field, in the same way that a stationary observer will see a magnetic field from the moving charges in the current loop. Motion alone, not time variation creates a magnetic field. > > > >I can't see how the current loop would be thrust to the right. > > The crossed E and B fields produce a net linear momentum, the same kind of > momentum that photons carry only this one is stationary. I still don't quite understand why you think it should carry momentum, A photon is different. Though I do understand your reasoning, I don't see why it must create momentum. > The naive > thinking (which I embraced for YEARS before discovering hidden momentum) is > that, as a result of this field momentum (which points to the right), the > current loop (and capacitor plates producing the E field (not shown)) > should start moving to the left to conserve momentum. If that were the > case, we'd have a space drive. However, it's not the case...the hidden > momentum arises to cancel the field momentum and the whole system remains > perfectly stationary. > > > >Also if something were incompressible it would be at an infinite pressure. > > only IF you actually compressed an incompressible fluid. As soon as ANY compression took place, the only way you could not have infinite pressure would be to not have the particles in contact. However I am satisfied with almost incompressible. (speed of sound just below speed of light) > > > >(for pressure changes you need "some" compressibility) > > This is not correct. All you need for a pressure increase is a force...i.e. > nothing has to actually move. If it is incompressible you have either "No Pressure" or "Infinite pressure". However a fluid could be "Almost incompressible". > > > > > creates a net power flow > > > >Sorry but I am ignorant of this term. > > a moving fluid's velocity multiplied by its pressure equals the power > density (watts per unit area) moving through the pipe carrying the > fluid. It comes from the definition of work = force * distance. Because > of the pressure difference in the upper and lower leg, the left and right > power flows are not balanced. The net, which points to the left exactly > cancels the "Poynting flow" of power to the right that is present in the > ExH fields but that's another issue that need not concern us right now. Ok > > > > > David J Griffiths in his new book "Introduction to Electrodynamics", 3rd > > > edition, gives another version of this explanation on p 521, which involves > > > quite a different type of current carrier. > > NOTE that I am now introducing a DIFFERENT example which also shows hidden > momentum. > > >Oh, is this how yours works? but how does this effect the flow of the > >charged fluid? > > no, this is for the DIFFERENT example, given by Griffiths, where there is > no fluid and the current is composed of non-interacting charges circulating > around the loop. > What I was referring to was: >>Under the influence of the E field, the non-interacting charges move >>faster on the "downhill" side of the loop than they do on the uphill side. This is when I realized that the pressure difference in your example was created by the electric field. > > > Frankly, I am astounded that both of these seemingly > different mechanisms produce the same result and I am expecting any day now > for this to produce a profound insight into relativity (which I sorely > need....:) Here you go... "It's wrong" ;) > Second, it doesn't produce a thrust...only a net momentum. If > that momentum weren't perfectly balanced, then the creation of that > momentum would have to result in a thrust....but it never gets to that point. I guess this is one point of confusion, I'm not sure what balanced momentum is??? > > > >But most importantly what does this have to do with what I presented? > >My presentation has no electric fields, Only needs motion of charges to > >create a magnetic field, And even then you could create the magnetic field > >with just the "spin" of electrons, which is barley motion. > > You brought this issue up while we were discussing your proposal on Dec 7th: > > >>If it is really recognized that you do not need to throw mass in the > >>opposite direction for propulsion then why do so many in conventional > >>physics say the only way to propel a space craft is by ejection of mass > >>and not field propulsion. > > I thought we needed to get "field propulsion" cleared up before > proceeding. If you will now accept that there is no such thing as "field > propulsion" and that the only way to propel oneself is to emit some form of > mass/energy, then the solution to your proposal becomes obvious: since > there is no mass being ejected, the thrust that is generated must be the > result of EM radiation emitted in the opposite direction. That doesn't > mean it won't work...it just clarifies the mechanism by which it does work > and allows us to analyze it properly. I guess this is where we differ, You seem to be saying that my idea might work, However you insist that there must be some form of hidden momentum somewhere, even in the magnetic field emitted. But your reason for saying this is not based on your identifying any such momentum, but merely due to your inability to break the law. Because your idea turned out to have momentum that was non-obvious you are assuming that mine will too. All I ask is that you don't demand that I believe a law, especially if I seem to be breaking it. Maybe, though I don't know how, there could be some hidden momentum, but until it is shown please don't tell me to hold Newtons ideas sacred. As you said my idea might work, the constructive thing would be to study it more closely rather than blindly apply laws your sure are there. The most important question has nothing to do with hidden momentum, but if it works or not. Try and find ways it might fail. As long as it works even if there is hidden momentum it has still in my mind broken the spirit of Newtons "for every action". (as does light pressure somewhat) And further I don't think he would hold his "Law" in such high regard, He wasn't intending it to cover anything like this! Actually if it does eject hidden momentum that can be transferred to matter in the opposite direction you might be able to use it as a tractor or artificial gravity beam. I might prefer that it does. But there is so far no theory or experiment to suggest that there is any hidden momentum. If we could call a truce on the hidden momentum subject, And work on trying to better understand the idea, make it fail, try variations. (an electrostatic variation) I also hope you will finally give me your opinion on how fast a magnetic field from an electromagnet would transmit through that medium that slowed light down to 38 mph. And how that might be used to test the idea at low frequencies. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 16:55:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14340; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:40:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 16:40:04 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Ultraviolt anomaly Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:42:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"uE0Wh2.0.zV3.atbMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vort. Here's a link to XXX-LANL and something very Vortexian http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0101018 Swarming ring patterns in bacterial colonies exposed to ultraviolet radiation: We report a novel morphological instability in a Bacillus subtilis colony initially growing under ambient conditions to ultraviolet radiation exposure. The bacteria in the central regions of the colonies are observed to migrate towards the colony edge forming a ring during uniform spatial exposure. When the radiation is switched off, the colonies were observed to grow both inward into the evacuated regions as well as outward indicating that the pattern is not formed due to depletion of nutrients at the center of the colony. We also discuss the results of random walk simulations that show that patterns are not formed due to linear attraction or repulsion between the individuals. Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source? Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? Artifact? Hmmm.... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 17:26:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA03263; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:21:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:21:24 -0800 Message-ID: <002d01c079da$f3239240$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: Hidden Momentum Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:24:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"PoGCR1.0.vo.JUcMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I read the page at http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html and have a problem with the first sentence, "The magnetic field created by the current loop combines with the electric field to produce an electromagnetic field momentum" Isn't that the reason for using the scalar and vector potentials, to correctly calculate field momentum? I can dig up a link to the 'cross-field antenna'; a HF antenna that uses a coil at right angles to a capacitor to shrink the sive of AM radio antennas. The inventor claims it works but it is generally considered a scam. Problem I see is when you start discussing charged fluids, and fields, we may be talking about the manifestations of something more prime. For instance, if electrons are energy bubbles, similar to dark solitons in the EM vacuum, and the E, B and momentum of electrons are the result of the separation of stress and momentum potentials (scalar and vector potentials) in a thermal vacuum plasma (I believe that is what is referred to in gauge theory?) then we might not be describing a realistic situation, because there is no such thing as the charged fluid we're considering. Anyway my understanding is electromagnetic waves and photons have momentum. The scalar and vector potentials prevent coming to the wrong conclusion that crossed static E and B fields have momentum. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:06:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA24684; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:56:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 17:56:29 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: "Vortex" Subject: Re: Ultraviolt anomaly Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 12:55:52 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA24638 Resent-Message-ID: <"UnTQi1.0.Y16.C_cMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:42:54 -0500: [snip] >Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source? >Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? >Artifact? [snip] My guess...under the influence of UV the bacteria produce a toxin which tends to accumulate in the centre, so they all leave. When the light is turned off, they stop making the toxin which then diffuses away, and they migrate back into the vacant regions. Toxin on the outside of the ring doesn't accumulate to such high levels because it can diffuse away easily. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 18:09:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28078; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:03:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 18:03:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:05:55 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Hidden Momentum In-reply-to: <002d01c079da$f3239240$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010108195730.02309cb8 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ruJtv.0.es6.46dMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A At 07:24 PM 1/8/2001 -0600, Scott Stephens wrote:

I read the page at http://www.earthtech.org/em/hm.html and have a problem
with the first sentence, "The magnetic field created by the current loop
combines with the electric field to produce an electromagnetic field
momentum"

Isn't that the reason for using the scalar and vector potentials, to
correctly calculate field momentum?

The main reason folks use the potentials in EM problems is to make the calculations easier.  Necessarily, exactly the same results are achieved as when the fields themselves are used.  Note that we do resort to the scalar potential, phi, in the second equation to make evaluation of the volume integral of ExH MUCH easier.

Anyway my understanding is electromagnetic waves and photons have momentum.
The scalar and vector potentials prevent coming to the wrong conclusion that
crossed static E and B fields have momentum. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As I said above, you must get the same result whether you solve the problem using potentials or fields. 

Next, crossed static E and B fields definitely DO have momentum.  The famous Feynman disk "paradox" is a well-known example (it's in Vol II of his lectures). Electric charge distributed around the rim of a non-rotating disk generates a sta tic electric field that extends outward from the rim, and a current-carrying coil of wire mounted perpendicular to the plane of the disk generates a static dipole magnetic field. The two fields result in a static ExH distribution that encircles the disk. Even though nothing is apparently in motion, if we take the momentum concept seriously it would appear that there is angular momentum "circulating" about the disk in the static fields. That this is in fact the case is demonstrated by the fact that when the current in the coil is interrupted, thereby extinguishing the magnetic field component of the distribution, the disk begins to rotate. This behavior support s the notion that, indeed, the static fields do contain angular momentum that is then transferred to the disk (to conserve angular momentum) when the field momentum is extinguished.

But the Feynman disk fields have ANGULAR momentum, which is quite different from linear momentum.  You can get the disk to start rotating by manipulating the fields but, because of hidden momentum, you cannot get a system to begin moving linearly by manipulating fields.

Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
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512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 20:23:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02979; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:55:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:55:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:26:07 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Space Drive Re: Hidden Momentum In-reply-to: <3A59D591.6AE5DDC5 ihug.co.nz> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010108200620.02312348 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010108084947.038c8ab0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"SrC-n1.0.Gk.pkeMw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 03:58 AM 1/9/2001 +1300, John Berry wrote: >I guess this is where we differ, You seem to be saying that my idea might >work, However you insist that there must be some form of hidden momentum >somewhere, even in the magnetic field emitted. No, I brought up the whole hidden momentum issue only because you brought up "field propulsion" in one of your posts. I wanted to make sure you understood that there really isn't any such thing as "field propulsion"...that, as far as we now know, in order for an isolated system to begin moving it has to emit some form of mass/energy in the opposite direction. Conventional rockets spew mass out the back end and the hypothetical "photon rocket" spews pure energy out the back end....but both are theoretically acceptable rockets. The reason for establishing this theoretical foundation is that it provides a valuable means of analyzing new ideas such as your two-coil propulsion idea. It seems to me that your two-coil propulsion system will, in fact, generate a net thrust. Since it obviously is not emitting any kind of mass...and since we have dismissed any kind of mysterious "field propulsion" as a possibility...it immediately becomes clear HOW your two-coil system is generating thrust. It is a photon rocket. There is no other possibility. Yes, it must be emitting very low frequency photons but that is the only possible way it can be generating thrust. So, no matter how powerful you might imagine that your two-coil thing could be, it will have to radiate 300 megawatts to produce 1 newton of thrust...like any other photon rocket. Regarding the speed of propagation of a magnetic field thru that stuff that makes light go at 40 mph, I have no idea because I really don't understand what that stuff is doing. But, even if it did slow down the propagation of a magnetic field tremendously, all that would do is lower the frequency required to get the timing of your two-coil thing working correctly. It would not change the fact that it is fundamentally a photon rocket. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:14:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA02528; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:00:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:00:21 -0800 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 19:07:05 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Ultraviolt anomaly To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A5A8059.984EF8C8 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Resent-Message-ID: <"A4Xn82.0.Cd.ahfMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:42:54 -0500: [snip]
>Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source?
>Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? >Artifact?

My guess...under the influence of UV the bacteria produce a toxin which
tends to accumulate in the centre, so they all leave.

Probably spores instead of toxin. This particular bacteria, Bacillus subtilis,  is very photoactive and has been studied for a long time in regard to its solar radiation responses , see:

http://www.photobiology.com/photoiupac2000/nichol/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:15:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07196; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:08:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:08:01 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010108200620.02312348 earthtech.org> References: <3A59D591.6AE5DDC5 ihug.co.nz> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010108084947.038c8ab0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:47:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Aetheric Propulsion Re: Hidden Momentum Resent-Message-ID: <"cw8JU3.0.Hm1.mofMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:26 PM -0500 1/8/01, Scott Little wrote: >propulsion"...that, as far as we now know, in order for an isolated system >to begin moving it has to emit some form of mass/energy in the opposite >direction. Conventional rockets spew mass out the back end and the >hypothetical "photon rocket" spews pure energy out the back end....but both isn't there another way of looking at this? consider a submarine, neutrally bouyant, submerged in a fluid medium. the propeller starts turning, creating a low pressure volume ahead of itself and a higher pressure volume behind. this low pressure volume causes the 'medium' to flow into it from around the front and sides of the vessel, while the higher pressure volume behind the prop pushes the sub forward thru the lower pressure volume ahead of the prop. so, is the sub moving thru the medium, or is the pressure differential created by the sub's propellor causing the medium to move the sub thru itself? recently, I pointed out Rick Andersen's visualization of the A-field around a toroid (http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/ortho1.htm). this page deserves a look, since it describes a potential means of 'aetheric propulsion', using parallel toroids... (even if you don't agree with the ideas, this page deserves recognition for an exceptionally clear graphical presentation of the concept) r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:37:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19507; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:33:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5AA36C.6CC52004 gorge.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 21:36:44 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: On Human 'Evil' References: <200101082325.PAA16992 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KJs2c1.0.jm4.yAgMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrel wrote (from the bottom up): > The insidious evil is the categorization of 'them', who don't > count, who are numbers, symbols, not our brothers and sisters. I agree. History (and the present) is replete with examples of: Group "A" believing, or developing the belief, that Group "B" was less than human, inferior, stupid or "evil." Therefore, it was necessarily "a good thing," to steal from, enslave, and kill those in Group "B." This discrimination has been seen in the basis of race, ethnicity, nationality, tribe, birth status, etc. > in the long run altruism pays off in survival of groups even >in the presence of 'bad guys'. Altruistic behavior is seen not > only in humans but in 'wild' populations. It is interesting that a wild mother will fight to the death, to protect her cubs; currently, we see certain human mothers who will stand idly by as her "mate" beats or tortures her child to death. > Social engineering toward some utopian vision usually > creates more problems for the vision spawns rules which > never quite fit the complexities of real situations. > There is no system of economics and politics and religion > which cannot be corrupted. Utopian visions typically are based on denying a substantial portion of human nature--as soon as reality rears its head, the utopia dissolves. It is instructive that the most harmful utopian vision enslaved hundreds of millions, by invoking the concept of "altruism." Ironically, an offshoot of this utopian vision (in reaction) declares that altruism is the ultimate evil. > I believe that some of the Us-Them dichotomy arises from > an extension of the immune system, wherein every organism > or group must have some detecting and removing "Thems" > which will disrupt the harmony of the cell, organism, > group, nation, etc. Then there are autoimmune diseases in > organisms and civil wars and prejudice in the body politic. It would be very easy to agree with this analogy, but I can't. "Everybody knows" that the immune system exists to remove "other" cells, microbes, viruses, etc. An unrecognized function of the immune system is the removal of "self" cells. Most immune cells (and other cells) are destroyed by apoptosis, or programmed cell death. All cells have a finite lifetime, and are replaced as necessary. In the normal course of events, these dead cells are removed by the immune system, via the reticulo-endothelial system. Consider "lupus" as a prototype of autoimmune diseases. In lupus, tissue damage is associated with the deposition of immune complex in the intracellular areas. Lupus is associated with an excess of antibodies to DNA, etc. "everybody knows" that "something" causes these antibodies to attack the cells, causing cell death. Logically, however, antibodies cannot "complex" with DNA, unless the DNA is NOT protected by its own cell. The cell must be destroyed before the antibodies can attack. Logically, the cells must be destroyed by some other agency. It is interesting, and perhaps instructive, that one common cause of cell damage is an excess of cortisol, the so called stress hormone. Perhaps there is an analogy, here, with the myriad stresses of modern life damaging cells (people) which are then removed by the immune system. > There is no system of economics and politics and religion > which cannot be corrupted. agreed. Tom Miller system. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:37:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20305; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:34:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:34:44 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Shoulders and E-M pinch Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:34:38 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"iGEW.0.0z4.oBgMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hope someone can help on this one. If I read Ken Shoulders stuff right, I translate some of his observations as follows: * Electrons from a point discharge across a potential. * During the process of accelerating across the potential, they seem to 'batch together' (due to 'magnetic pinch' ?) forming a sort of 'electron bullet'. * The planar cross-section of one of these projectiles seems to decrease if the projectile has to traverse an insulator. My perspective guesstimate: * the 'pinch effect' which compresses hi-current electrical discharges is increased by transit across the insulator between the source and sink. Something I would hazard another guess at: * if the pinch effect doesn't discriminate on the basis of charge polarity, is it possible we get fusion by packetizing protons in this matter and having them be 'pinched' in the same fachion ? just a stray bit of cosmic stuff I had a go at the grav-cap a while back, and what I ignored at the time as simply side-effects ran true to what he said. In the open air, arcs seemed to wash across the plates, performing little surgery on the set-up. I had used old CD-ROMs in one go, they punctured and I tossed them aside. After reading the 'ev' stuff, I went back to look at the debris. What I found was that wherever the arcs hit a crack they did no damage to the metal. In some places, there were nice little 'bulletholes' punched clean through the metal of the CD, with the plastic healed behind it. ======================================================= 1. The reason this has anything more than side interest is that this may be a way to proton/ion fusion via enhanced pinch of positive charge packets. (Is this happening in the famous water arc CF experiments ? - I also have seen unbelievable thermal results using primitive materials - and wondered if the arcs were all actually electrons or perhaps some were proton arcs...) 2. Another possibility is that if the projectiles can be properly focused, the point of impact in a metal could have highly-magnified energy density, unachieveable with ordinary arcs. (Another possible fusion point). 3. If the pinch magnitude can be shaped, then propulsion via electron flow could also be achieved. (I tried something like this with a HiV disharge arc, with no apparent success. I created an arc which needed to 'bend' around an insulator, thus pushing the insulator. No such luck, or, more probably, inadequate parameters and materials) Or maybe I need someone to point out where I obviously got this subject all wrong ;)... cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 21:48:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA24939; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:46:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:46:01 -0800 Message-ID: <20010109054558.23084.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:45:58 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Magnetic Interstellar Spacecraft Funded To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"xCayL2.0.b56.PMgMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mark Goldes wrote: > Those interested in unique approaches to space propulsion, might > like to > look at the following URL. It describes the "Magnetic Bottle" work > of Dr. > Robert Winglee at the U. of Washington. He also has posted > substantial > information on the U. website. The idea is to make a dipole magnetic field that will deflect some of the solar wind plasma, like Earth does. "Magnetic sail" is a better description of the principle than "magnetic bottle." The force will be small, but it's always "on" as long as the magnet is "on," too. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 23:01:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA27603; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:53:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:53:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:20:56 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Ultraviolt anomaly Resent-Message-ID: <"4G4jm.0.9l6.YLhMw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:55 PM 1/9/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >My guess...under the influence of UV the bacteria produce a toxin which >tends to accumulate in the centre, so they all leave. When the light is >turned off, they stop making the toxin which then diffuses away, and they >migrate back into the vacant regions. Toxin on the outside of the ring >doesn't accumulate to such high levels because it can diffuse away easily. It would be useful to know if the migration begins at the center or at the outside of the ring. If it begins at the outside, then the above seems to eb a possibility. If it begins at the center, then the concentration wold increase at the boundary of the migratuion, thus increasing the toxin there. I also wonder if the bacteria actually migrate or if reproduction rate affects the poulation density change. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 23:02:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA15329; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:00:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: <20010109070015.10270.qmail web4401.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:00:15 -0800 (PST) From: harvey norris Subject: Re: Shoulders and E-M pinch To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Yla8m2.0.Nl3.5ShMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --- xplorer wrote: > > Hope someone can help on this one. > > If I read Ken Shoulders stuff right, > I translate some of his observations > as follows: > > * Electrons from a point discharge across > a potential. > > * During the process of accelerating > across the potential, they seem to > 'batch together' (due to 'magnetic pinch' ?) > forming a sort of 'electron bullet'. > > * The planar cross-section > of one of these projectiles seems > to decrease if the projectile > has to traverse an insulator. > > My perspective guesstimate: As the list seems to have allowed me to intervene here with relevant conversation, it again seems to be the classical condensed argument all over again. So much energy goes in, so much goes out.That is unity and not Over Unity(at first glance) The rate of that energy delivery happens in discrete packages of carriers of that energy by the sensing instrument that only senses "voltage deflection" during small time intervals. This is comparable to impulse and momentum in physics and the time intervals involved. As another analogy I have scoped out precursor hf spikes prior to arcing to a water surface by high voltage inputs as shown at http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/LaGrangeLn/teslafy/mag.html Note the difference in scope forms with arcing and that without. During the variac operation of turning the voltage up, the number of ringdowns per 60 hz cycle appear as 6-8 prior to actual visible arcing in an air gap setup. The number of ringdowns per energy input is undoubtably of a quantum behavior similar to electrons shells exibiting energy storage and release. At Colorado Springs it is concievable that an unbalanced 3 phase load consumed 300 KVA in operation at unity power factor to Teslas Experimental Station establishment indicating approximately a power delivery of 400 hp. Tesla claimed that he turned this into 120,000 hp:how can this be?? It is from the near instantaneous transformation of a large amount of energy expressed in a small amount of time in a ring down. In every half cycle at 140 hz those generators could supply 1073 joules, but the same release of that energy storage in a 84,000 hz comparatively quick ringdown might approximate the instantaneous release of 120,000 acting hp for much breifer periods of time in the actual period of the cycle. No one can dispute that Shoulders research is showing the breif possible episodes of over unity during high energy display but this is an anomalie already over a century old. Or did I already make this post/sorry for the redundancy. Sincerely HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 8 23:24:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA21064; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:22:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:22:52 -0800 Message-ID: <20010109072245.27598.qmail web4403.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:22:45 -0800 (PST) From: harvey norris Subject: Questionable Easy Shoulder Aluminum arc Holes. To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YKerA.0.y85.9nhMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 1)Comprise Wax Paper and Aluminum foil layers in tight contact electrically in parallel 2)Put those in parallel into an appreciable resonant voltage rise necessary to puncture the wax paper, usually only several thousand volts, only across one L or C component in series resonance. 3) dont worry about the overload, only the kickback if you ever powered it from a generator which is practically impossible in this description of events. 4)Just Snap Crackle and Pop, and youre done! Shorting a series resonance across one of the components instantaneously releases the voltage rise without the danger of maximum current. It is a simple current limited process. Try it with popcorn too! HDN ===== Binary Resonant System http://members3.boardhost.com/teslafy/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 01:09:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA12406; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:05:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:05:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 23:05:36 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Art Bell returns! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"hdDk51.0.m13.jHjMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm sure there are a few Art Bell fans on this list, so here's the good news: ART BELL BACK ON AIR FEB. 5, 2001 LOS ANGELES, Jan. 5, 2001 - Art Bell, the radio personality famous for his spontaneous and compelling conversations about all things unexplained, has announced his return to radio. Bell resumes his reign as host of the most listened to live overnight radio program, Coast to Coast AM on Feb. 5 from 1am to 6am ET. Bell states, "The negotiation was brutal and bloody! The result... fewer commercials and back to five hours." Bell resigned last April because of family and legal issues that required his full attention. These have been resolved. His passion for radio and his audience has propelled him back with a renewed commitment to the unique show he created in 1993. Coast to Coast AM airs on more than 430 stations nationwide. "I am ecstatic to welcome Art Bell back to his program," said Kraig T. Kitchin, president/COO of Premiere Radio Networks. "It was a bloody negotiation - pulling someone out of retirement always is. I am wildly enthusiastic to bring the news to affiliates and listeners nationwide... imagine their reaction! I also want to add my thanks to Mike Siegel." Premiere Radio Networks, Inc., a subsidiary of Clear Channel Communications (NYSE:CCU), syndicates more than 60 radio programs to more than 7,800 radio affiliations and reaches over 180 million listeners weekly. Premiere is the number one radio network in the country and features the following personalities: Rush Limbaugh, Dr. Laura Schlessinger, Jim Rome, Rick Dees, Casey Kasem, Dr. Dean Edell, Bob (Kevoian) & Tom (Griswold), Phil Hendrie, Leeza Gibbons, Michael Reagan, Dave Koz, Blair Garner, Lionel, and others. Premiere is From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 01:49:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA23272; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:48:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 01:48:26 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Shoulders and E-M pinch Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:48:28 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <20010109070015.10270.qmail web4401.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Nsjts.0.Xh5.gvjMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: harvey norris [mailto:harvich yahoo.com] > Sent: 2001 January 09, Tuesday 14:00 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com >< > --- xplorer wrote: > > > > Hope someone can help on this one. > > > > If I read Ken Shoulders stuff right, > > I translate some of his observations > > as follows: > > > > * Electrons from a point discharge across > > a potential. > > > > * During the process of accelerating > > across the potential, they seem to > > 'batch together' (due to 'magnetic pinch' ?) > > forming a sort of 'electron bullet'. > > > > * The planar cross-section > > of one of these projectiles seems > > to decrease if the projectile > > has to traverse an insulator. > > > As the list seems to have allowed me to intervene here > with relevant conversation, it again seems to be the > classical condensed argument all over again. So much > energy goes in, so much goes out.That is unity and not > Over Unity(at first glance) The rate of that energy > delivery happens in discrete packages of carriers of > that energy by the sensing instrument that only senses > "voltage deflection" during small time intervals. This > is comparable to impulse and momentum in physics and > the time intervals involved. >bulk snip< I have no idea how this relates to the question: I am not interested in whether Ken Shoulders achieved or claims O-U or not. Neither do I claim anything here, beyond what I see may or may not be interesting side-effects. I am simply asking for information with regards to arcs punching through insulation, particularly in terms of the energy density during transit as well as the nature of the energy release upon impact. My interest in Ken Shoulders info is simply to put his observations in perspective, reducing it to coherent points, so I can check these ideas in my experiments. > No one can dispute > that Shoulders research is showing the breif possible > episodes of over unity during high energy display but > this is an anomalie already over a century old. Or did > I already make this post/sorry for the redundancy. > Sincerely HDN cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 05:49:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA27061; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:48:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010109084631.00ab0c48 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 08:48:01 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Proton decay experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"yZlme.0.lc6.LQnMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Yomiuri newspaper headlines today are about a new research project at the Kamiokande underground laboratory, to detect proton decay. A partial translation of the lead story can be found at: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/index-e.htm Quotes: Scientists set project to prove decay of protons Yomiuri Shimbun A group of scientists at a Tokyo University laboratory has drawn up a plan to build a huge underground water tank with the aim of proving that protons decay, thus demonstrating that all matter in the universe eventually decays, the researchers said. If successful, the project would be the first of its kind to demonstrate proton decay. The underground tank, called a water detector, will tentatively be called "Hyper-Kamiokande," Yoji Totsuka, a professor at the university's Cosmic Ray Laboratory, said. The decay of a proton--a stable, positively charged subatomic unit that is an element of all matter--has been theoretically predicted. If proton decay is proven, it will mean that no matter in the universe can endure forever. All protons in the universe were created as a result of the Big Bang, the cosmic explosion believed to have taken place about 15 billion years ago. However, no-one has observed proton decay. In recent years, however, an increasing number of scientists believe that protons gradually decay, with an average life expectancy equivalent to 20 orders of magnitude longer than the age of the universe. The theory implies that all matter in the universe will ultimately cease to exist. The Hyper-Kamiokande detector will comprise eight cubic containers equipped with optical sensors. The containers will measure 50 meters on each side and will be filled with 1 million tons of pure water. It is believed that a decaying proton would emit Cerenkov radiation as it decays. The new project is designed to detect feeble signs of this radiation emitted during decay. . . . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 06:37:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA12625; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:33:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 06:33:29 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010109092326.00aa9b90 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:30:13 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Mpemba effect, the moon, Asimov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vrtfT2.0.553.u4oMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Isaac Asimov wrote an essay titled "The Tragedy of the Moon" (I think it was), in which he said that the presence of the moon close to earth made it difficult for people to develop accurate theories of celestial mechanics. The moon's orbit is complex, and the moon was the focus of astronomy for centuries, and many fruitless theories were devised to explain its movement. If our planet did not have a moon, astronomers might have observed the other planets and worked out Newton's laws of motion sooner. Along the same lines, perhaps it is a good thing scientists "forgot" the Mpemba effect in the 19th century, or dismissed it as an error. If they had paid to close attention to it, they might not have worked out the laws of thermodynamics. I am not in favor of ignoring anomalies, but there are times when it is best to put an anomaly aside and assume that you will be able to explain it adequately at a later date. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 07:44:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09158; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:37:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 07:37:43 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010109092357.038abd90 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 09:35:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Aetheric Propulsion Re: Hidden Momentum In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010108200620.02312348 earthtech.org> <3A59D591.6AE5DDC5 ihug.co.nz> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107232343.02a9ac70 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010108084947.038c8ab0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"KOrpF1.0.yE2.61pMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:47 PM 1/8/01 -0500, ralph muha wrote: >isn't there another way of looking at this? consider a submarine, >neutrally bouyant, submerged in a fluid medium. the propeller starts >turning, creating a low pressure volume ahead of itself and a higher >pressure volume behind. this low pressure volume causes the 'medium' to >flow into it from around the front and sides of the vessel, while >the higher pressure volume behind the prop pushes the sub forward thru >the lower pressure volume ahead of the prop. > >so, is the sub moving thru the medium, or is the pressure differential >created by the sub's propellor causing the medium to move the sub thru >itself? Yes. This method of propulsion certainly works....but only because the medium has mass. Thus when the sub's propellor throws a bit of the medium backwards, real forward momentum is imparted to the submarine. The problem with using this kind of drive in outer space is that the medium there (empty space) is massless...at least as far as we now know. >recently, I pointed out Rick Andersen's visualization of the A-field >around a toroid (http://www.tricountyi.net/~randerse/ortho1.htm). >this page deserves a look, since it describes a potential means of >'aetheric propulsion', using parallel toroids... > >(even if you don't agree with the ideas, this page deserves recognition for >an exceptionally clear graphical presentation of the concept) The graphics are nice. The ideas appear to be science fiction, especially the deflection of gravity "vectors" by a toroid's A field. If that were actually the case, we'd already have anti-gravity platforms, etc. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 13:37:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA06988; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:32:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:32:46 -0800 Message-ID: <032901c07a84$31969dc0$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: Ultraviolt anomaly Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 05:15:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"0H2uR2.0._i1.zDuMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In reply to Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 8 Jan 2001 19:42:54 -0500: >[snip] >>Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source? >>Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? >>Artifact? >[snip] >My guess...under the influence of UV the bacteria produce a toxin which >tends to accumulate in the centre, so they all leave. When the light is >turned off, they stop making the toxin which then diffuses away, and they >migrate back into the vacant regions. Toxin on the outside of the ring >doesn't accumulate to such high levels because it can diffuse away easily. Or maybe they are photo-voltaic and create an unpleasant electric gradient? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 17:24:09 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20700; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:12:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:12:51 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: Ultraviolet Anomaly Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 20:15:51 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"a679Q2.0.H35.ISxMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The colony starts with uniform density of bacteria, and uniform illumination with UV, so if a toxin were collecting why does it concentrate in the center? The motion/growth is simultaneous, with a greater outward velocity at the center than at the edges. The effect of chemotaxis (some Vorts seem to favor this idea) was simulated as well. A ring formation did develop, but very diffuse. Not at all like the dense ring formed by UV exposure. The population density plots are most interesting, basically looking more and more like a delta function as the UV power increases (7W/M^2 to 30W/M^2). If spore formation were the cause, wouldn't growth occur in the center as well as the edges when the lamp was extinguished? But spore formation was not mentioned (at least by my first quick reading of the paper) so I agree it would be a good spot to start looking. Funny thing, you know I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it would be like to be one of those bacteria. Maybe I'd try hiding under another bacteria? (smile) Random walk was ruled out, but I can't help but think of the problem like a state machine. Some simple behavior repeated over the scale of the colony resulting in large scale action. Like, uhmmmm, us? K. -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:knagel gis.net] Sent: Monday, January 08, 2001 7:43 PM To: Vortex Subject: Ultraviolt anomaly Hi Vort. Here's a link to XXX-LANL and something very Vortexian http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/0101018 Swarming ring patterns in bacterial colonies exposed to ultraviolet radiation: We report a novel morphological instability in a Bacillus subtilis colony initially growing under ambient conditions to ultraviolet radiation exposure. The bacteria in the central regions of the colonies are observed to migrate towards the colony edge forming a ring during uniform spatial exposure. When the radiation is switched off, the colonies were observed to grow both inward into the evacuated regions as well as outward indicating that the pattern is not formed due to depletion of nutrients at the center of the colony. We also discuss the results of random walk simulations that show that patterns are not formed due to linear attraction or repulsion between the individuals. Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source? Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? Artifact? Hmmm.... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 18:29:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18731; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:24:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:24:09 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:23:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA18690 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hnw49.0.aa4.9VyMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, It occurs to me that in a metal many of the metal atoms are actually ions that have surrendered their electrons to the Fermi sea. When hydrogen is absorbed by Ni, it exits in the atomic state. If Ni ions were a Mills catalyst under some circumstances, then one might expect hydrino formation in the metal hydride. Ni+ +Ni++ -> Ni + Ni+++ -27.53 eV which is 0.3 eV more than the electron hole value needed for hydrino formation. IOW if Ni wire is first loaded with H, then rapidly heated to 2300 K, hydrinos might form in the wire, producing excess energy (and probably blowing the wire apart). The high temperature has the added advantage of adding to the mobility of the Ni atoms (ions). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 18:43:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25190; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:37:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 18:37:09 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride - addendum Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:36:33 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA25153 Resent-Message-ID: <"rsW463.0.O96.LhyMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Also, the process can be catalyzed by bringing the Ni into contact with a different metal that has a higher work function. Electrons from the Ni will flow into the other metal, increasing the population of Ni++ in the Ni. Scott, this may be why your Piantelli replication result was negative - your hammer was made of the wrong metal! ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:04:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03635; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:01:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:01:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:00:31 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA03449 Resent-Message-ID: <"YclYv3.0.zt.q1zMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:23:30 +1100: >IOW if Ni wire is first loaded with H, then rapidly heated to 2300 K, >hydrinos might form in the wire, producing excess energy (and probably >blowing the wire apart). Oops! Ni melts at 1726 K, so 2300 K is a bit too high. One will simply have to make do with a temp just below the melting point ;(. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:28:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA16381; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:23:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:23:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:23:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"piggC1.0.t_3.CNzMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Swiped off the net. Anyone recognize any names in here (besides the obvious ones)? Any good guesses what this it? I thought the Web was the biggest thing I'd ever see in my lifetime too, but they say that's not all folks... --------------------------------- Harvard Business School Press executive editor Hollis Heimbouch has just paid $250,000 for a book about IT -- but neither the editor nor the agent, Dan Kois of The Sagalyn Literary Agency, knows what IT is. All they do know: IT, also code-named Ginger, is an invention developed by 49-year-old scientist Dean Kamen, and the subject of a planned book by journalist Steve Kemper. According to Kemper's proposal, IT will change the world, and is so extraordinary that it has drawn the attention of technology visionaries Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs and the investment dollars of pre-eminent Silicon Valley venture capitalist John Doerr, among others. Kemper -- who has been published in Smithsonian, National Geographic and Outside among others -- has had exclusive access to Kamen and the engineers at his New Hampshire-based research and development company, DEKA, for the past year and a half. He tags the proposed book as Soul of the New Machine meets The New New Thing and won over his agent and publisher with e-mails describing the project in carefully couched language. He also included an amusing narrative of a meeting between Bezos, Jobs, Doerr and Kamen. The invention itself is as interesting as the inventor. Kamen is 'a true eccentric, cantankerous and opinionated, a great character,' the proposal says, with large gaps when it comes to pop culture.In the proposal, Doerr calls Kamen -- who was just awarded the National Medal of Technology, the country's highest such award -- a combination of Henry Ford and Thomas Edison. Doerr also says, a touch ominously, that he had been sure that he wouldn't see the development of anything in his lifetime as important as the World Wide Web -- until he saw IT. According to the proposal, another investor, Credit Suisse First Boston, expects Kamen's invention to make more money in its first year than any start-up in history, predicting Kamen will be worth more in five years than Bill Gates. Jobs told Kamen the invention would be as significant as the PC, the proposal says. And though there are no specifics in the proposal as to what the invention is, there are some tantalizing clues. Is IT an energy source? Some sort of environmentally friendly personal transport device? One editor who saw the proposal went as far as to speculate -- jokingly (perhaps) -- that IT was a type of personal hovering craft. Consider the following items, culled from the proposal: * IT is not a medical invention. * In a private meeting with Bezos, Jobs and Doerr, Kamen assembled two Gingers -- or ITs -- in 10 minutes, using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and some cardboard boxes. * The invention has a fun element to it, because once a Ginger was turned on, Bezos started laughing his ''loud, honking laugh.'' * There are possibly two Ginger models, named Metro and Pro -- and the Metro may possibly cost less than $2,000. * Bezos is quoted as saying that IT ''is a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?'' * Jobs is quoted as saying: ''If enough people see the machine you won't have to convince them to architect cities around it. It'll just happen.'' * Kemper says the invention will ''sweep over the world and change lives, cities, and ways of thinking.'' * The ''core technology and its implementations'' will, according to Kamen, ''have a big, broad impact not only on social institutions but some billion-dollar old-line companies.'' And the invention will ''profoundly affect our environment and the way people live worldwide. It will be an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities.'' * IT will be a mass-market consumer product ''likely to run afoul of existing regulations and or inspire new ones,'' according to Kemper. The invention will also likely require ''meeting with city planners, regulators, legislators, large commercial companies and university presidents about how cities, companies and campuses can be retro-fitted for Ginger.'' The invention itself is as interesting as the inventor. Kamen -- ''a true eccentric, cantankerous and opinionated, a great character,'' according to the proposal -- dropped out of college in his 20s, then invented the first drug infusion pump; he later created the first portable insulin pump and dialysis machine. Kamen, an avid aviator who commutes via a helicopter, is also the founder of FIRST -- For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology -- a nonprofit organization that encourages young people to pursue studies and careers in math and science. He's a single man obsessed with his work and out of touch with popular culture. According to the proposal, Kamen was seated at a White House dinner next to two people he'd never heard of: Shirley MacLaine and Warren Beatty. Kamen's most recent invention is the iBot, an off-road wheelchair that can climb stairs, cover sand and gravel and rise to balance on two wheels. A prototype iBot was showcased by wheelchair-bound journalist John Hockenberry at last year's TED conference in Monterrey, Calif.; the demonstration was greeted by wild applause. IT/Ginger won't be revealed until 2002, the proposal says. No one has seen the project except Kamen, Kemper, the engineers and the investors -- which include Doerr, a partner in the venture capital firm of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which helped launch Netscape, Amazon, Juniper Networks, Excite, and Home, among others; and Michael Schmertzler, managing director of Credit Suisse First Boston. Others who have seen the invention and signed confidentiality agreements include minor investors Paul Allaire, CEO of Xerox; and Vern Loucks, recently retired CEO of Baxter. Bezos, Jobs and writer/venture capitalist Randy Komisar sit on the advisory board. Kamen retains 85 percent of his new company, according to the proposal. Why the secrecy? Kamen fears, as he states in a letter to Kemper that is included in the proposal, that ''huge corporations'' might catch wind of the invention and ''use their massive resources to erect obstacles against us or, worse, simply appropriate the technology by assigning hundreds of engineers to catch up to us, and thousands of employees to produce it in their plants.'' But such secrecy may have been enough to turn publishers away. ''The Internet changed the world, too'' said one editor who considered the project, ''but books about it don't really sell.'' As for the quarter-million-dollar price tag for North American rights: on the one hand, it doesn't seem to be a lot for a book about an invention which has mesmerized such well-known technology moguls. On the other, $250,000 is a lot to pay for a story about a product that hasn't been seen, defined or named. ''We were well aware of Kamen,'' says book editor Heimbouch, who says she's been publishing in this technology circle for a long time.'' (The bestselling The Monk and the Riddle: The Education of a Silicon Valley Entrepreneur by Komisar is hers.) So jumping on board for the book wasn't such a dilemma. Besides, says Heimbouch, Harvard Business School Press had intended to approach Kamen about doing a book anyway. ''He's an inventor of great technologies that make people's lives better,'' she says. Harvard Business School Press, a division of Harvard Business School Publishing, is a wholly owned, nonprofit subsidiary of Harvard University. The Sagalyn Agency retains all but North American rights to the book. ----------------[ end ]------------------- - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:44:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA24563; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:39:56 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010109214614.009b59e0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 21:48:59 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? In-Reply-To: References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2mo7S3.0.i_5.CczMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All seems to by HYPE for some new computer or software. They are trying to get everybodies attention with curiosity. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:45:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26353; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:43:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:43:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5BD97A.85CF4961 enter.net> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 22:39:38 -0500 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WBnsy.0.TR6.cfzMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm normally a lurker on Vortex, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in, after reading some of Scott Little's email concerning space drives. See my comments below. Scott Little wrote: > According to the existing laws of physics, the only way to go in one > direction is to throw mass/energy in the other direction. As the term > implies, mass/energy can be either mass (i.e. conventional rockets) or > energy (i.e. a photon rocket) or a combination of the two. No disagreement here. Conservation of momentum. This of course rules out all mechanical drives that try to create unidirectional motion from rotary motionm. These devices will only work on the ground - either on land or water - wherever friction is available. > "Field propulsion" is a popular topic these days...but the only viable form > of it should really be called radiation propulsion (i.e. a photon > rocket). As you point out, a photon rocket isn't very efficient. You > have to radiate 300 megawatts of power out the tailpipe to generate 1 > newton (1/4 pound) of thrust! > > Lots of folks (myself included) have wandered down the trail of "field > propulsion" looking for some way to arrange crossed E and H fields on board > the ship so as to create stored linear momentum in the fields with the hope > that, as a result, the ship would take off in the opposite > direction. These efforts are doomed to failure by a little-known > phenomenon called "hidden momentum", a purely mechanical momentum which > spontaneously arises in an electromagnetic system to precisely cancel any > net linear field momentum stored in the system. (I can provide further > explanation/references for this if you're interested). This rules out drives such as JLN's PFT (poynting flow thruster?). > The bottom line is this: An isolated stationary system cannot begin moving > UNLESS it emits some form of mass/energy.....at least with our present laws > of physics. In other words, the popular idea of "field propulsion", where > you just turn on some kind of field and it causes your ship AND THE FIELD > to fly off through space, is impossible according to the existing laws of > physics. > > Of course, we can always hope to discover new physics someday and one area > of hope for space travel is that we will discover some way to make our > spaceship interact forcibly with the rest of the mass/energy in the > Universe. That way we can sorta pull ourselves along through space > analogous to the way a car pulls itself along using the entire Earth as > reaction mass. But that is complete science fiction right now. Okay. Fine. I agree completely with you so far. And find that bit about hidden momentum fascinating. Let me just add the following URL written by Marc Millis of NASA: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/TM-107289.htm In it he describes some of the challenges when confronted with creating a space drive. He uses speculative (conventional) physics in his argument, but his reasoning is a generic one. He essentially breaks it down into the following: 1)Hypothetical collision sails 2)Hypothetical Field Drives Then, of course, there is Hal Puthoff's work: http://www.earthtech.org/publications/JSEv12_295.pdf Just thinking aloud, one could create a space drive if you had a spacecraft(s/c) that could interact with the universe. That is, the s/c pushes in one direction, and all of space is pushed in the opposite direction. Or, if the s/c used a negative matter drive, ala Robert Foward, where a positive mass and a negative mass accelerate together. Since linear momentum is conserved, no laws are broken, with the exception of negative mass. Can the vacuum provide us with a negative mass/energy density? Is there a way to alter the vaccuum characteristics to allow us to do this? This remains to be seen. There are some interesting experiments suggested here, including the Woodward experiment. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/summ.htm And then there is the whole viewpoint of questioning physics at the fundamental level. The most popular being: "Can an Aether/Ether theory be used to describe relativistic and other effects, including gravity?" (I think WAAAY too many people jump on the ether bandwagon without actually doing their research first. BTW, this is by no means an easy problem to solve, if it can be solved.) Of course, even if you say that most of these ideas are hogwash, that still leaves open the idea that we just don't know everything that there is to know. This being the case, there may exist anomalies of nature, or experimental anomalies, that may provide us with spacedrive-like effects. Reported observations such as the Hutchison effect or the Biefeld-Brown effect really need to be researched and replicated to death before a verdict can be reached on them. (Neither of which has happened in these two instances.) Just a whole bunch of ideas. Sorry about the length and scope. I imagine you could write several theses on the topics presented. BTW, I don't necessarily endorse any particular unconventional idea mentioned. But I am open-minded.....but not so open that crap falls into it. :-) -David Rosignoli From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:46:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26756; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:44:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:44:15 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:47:12 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"LForE2.0.cX6.DgzMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh come on Rick. This has all the making's of a media hoax. What was the source of the information? "Swiped off the Net"? Or promotional material from the publisher? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 19:49:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA28611; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:48:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 19:48:03 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: "Vortex" Subject: RE: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 22:51:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"UeObb.0.z-6.pjzMw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh wait, it's the lead story at slashdot. Try this http://www.msnbc.com/news/513749.asp?0cm=c10 K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 23:22:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26979; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:19:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:19:46 -0800 From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:20:32 GMT Organization: Miller and Associates Message-ID: <3a650c68.248940064 mail.midiowa.net> References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA26945 Resent-Message-ID: <"Br4GZ2.0.Mb6.Hq0Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick, On Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:23:45 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Swiped off the net. Anyone recognize any names in here (besides the >obvious ones)? Any good guesses what this it? I thought the Web was >the biggest thing I'd ever see in my lifetime too, but they say >that's not all folks... > >--------------------------------- > >Harvard Business School Press executive editor Hollis Heimbouch has >just paid $250,000 for a book about IT -- but neither the editor nor >the agent, Dan Kois of The Sagalyn Literary Agency, knows what IT is. >All they do know: IT, also code-named Ginger, is an invention >developed by 49-year-old scientist Dean Kamen ... It has to be something like an enclosed, modification of his super-wheelchair. The changes needed in cities would be to the roads and/or sidewalks, with locked parking places for these devices. If everyone used bicycles you'd need the same kind of changes in American cities (no sewer gratings to catch the wheels, special curbs, isolation from automobiles/trucks, etc.). -- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn (CDP, KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 9 23:24:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA27983; Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:21:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:21:55 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:21:21 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA27883 Resent-Message-ID: <"UJpVt2.0.0r6.Is0Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Rick Monteverde's message of Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:23:45 -1000: >Swiped off the net. Anyone recognize any names in here (besides the >obvious ones)? Any good guesses what this it? I thought the Web was >the biggest thing I'd ever see in my lifetime too, but they say >that's not all folks... [snip] Ok, I'll take the bait, and place a bet on a personal flying jet-ski. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 00:58:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA25517; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:57:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:57:00 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" Subject: Q?: Element Analysis Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:56:56 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ny5BJ1.0.bE6.SF2Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having run a process on some silver samples (jpegs avail) I am now searching for someone to run an analysis of the results to check for isotope shifts and the ususal CF LENR stuff Any suggestions out there on the most reliable types of analysis for determining element distributions in something like this ? Any Caveats or basic requirements ? (I've made about a zillion runs over the past ten years, but I always been too pessimistic to try getting the resulting mess analyzed.) [Anybody wanting to flame me or tell me how futile or flawed this is, please keep it on VortexB...] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 01:09:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA28978; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:08:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:08:36 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:08:38 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <"zPAw63.0.h47.JQ2Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin, I have some Nickel-Chrome (???) wire they sell for water heaters here. Using it in electrolysis experiments as Hi-v cathode, I can get it to a nice yellowish glow (in water) where it seems to disintegrate. Not saying this is necessarily what you had in mind, but I would be interested in verifying its chemical makeup (prior to use). I am deeply suspicious that it actually has a different chemical makeup than what I was told. Salespeople on this part of the planet haven't always got much of a clue and getting the info out of them (in this case) might not give the correct answer. I am looking for a lab to analyze some other samples, and I may try to get it done at the same time, but the question is: What kinds of artifacts would you expect of an arc discharge from Ni in H2O that might distinguish it from chrome or steel ? > -----Original Message----- > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au] > Sent: 2001 January 10, Wednesday 10:01 > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride > > > In reply to Robin van Spaandonk's message of Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:23:30 > +1100: > >IOW if Ni wire is first loaded with H, then rapidly heated to 2300 K, > >hydrinos might form in the wire, producing excess energy (and probably > >blowing the wire apart). > Oops! Ni melts at 1726 K, so 2300 K is a bit too high. One will > simply have > to make do with a temp just below the melting point ;(. > > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 01:19:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA32455; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:17:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5C27FF.5743148C powerup.com.au> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:14:39 +1000 From: David Hancock X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Frictionless? References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T8bov2.0.yw7.EY2Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What is the cause of mechanical friction? This stuff sounds great, if it works, but frictionless? "RALEIGH, N.C. — North Carolina State University professor Jan Genzer has hit on a method for creating the ultimate nonstick surface. Potential applications include covering adjacent disk drive components to prevent scratching, improving the biocompatibility of medical implants by eliminating interactions with surrounding cells and coating airplanes with a water repellent that would automatically de-ice wings. The basic technique is simple: a substrate is stretched slightly and then coated with a polymer. When the tension is relieved, the substrate pulls the polymer molecules so close together that no other material is able to bond to the polymer molecules. Devices coated with the friction free polymers can bang against each other without scratching and cannot become coated with anything — even liquids. "These researchers have discovered a clever way of packing molecules more tightly than nature does on its own," said Andrew Lovinger, who is program manager at the National Science Foundation funded project. Genzer's technique coats a shrinkable polymer with a nonstick material, such as Teflon. When the polymer shrinks, it squeezes the already smooth molecules into a monolayer so dense that even water molecules can't penetrate it. "By increasing a material's surface area before you chemically attach the layer of molecules that forms its final coating, you can tailor the material's physical and chemical surface properties, such as water resistance and durability," Genzer said. Genzer and his post doctorate research associate at North Carolina State University, Kirill Efimenko, stretched a substrate material before applying the nonstick coating, thereby depositing more of the desired molecules than on a nonstretched substrate. When the tension was released, the chemically grafted molecules were squeezed together into a "locked" configuration that excluded all previous irregularities on its surface. With just the right amount of stretching — too much spoiled the effect — all the extra room between molecules that previously made even nonstick surfaces irregular at the molecular level was squeezed out. The resulting surface not only had much greater density and "smoothness," but also proved to be more chemically inert than natural substances. Without any of the ordinary irregularities in its surface, even down to the atomic level, nothing could attach itself to the material, even water molecules or solvents for the coating material. "We were stunned by the results, which we discovered accidentally. Ordinarily the only way to improve surface density is to rely on environmentally dirty oxygen plasma treatments, which are also very hard on the substrate. Our method is much cleaner and cheaper, plus it's a much more controllable process with very uniform densities," said Genzer. The researchers chose to perform their experiment on polydimethyl siloxane (PDMS) — an elastic polymer — because PDMS is made of cross-linked molecules that are typical of elastic industrial materials. They consider their success with PDMS as strong evidence that the shrinking process will work with other widely used industrial polymers. The PDMS networks were fabricated using an array of rigid, semi fluorinated units aligned perpendicular to the substrate. The perpendicularly aligned molecules were able to slightly adjust their orientation as the elastic shrank, resulting in maximally dense surfaces that proved completely impermeable. The team spent six months testing the new material to see if environmental exposure would undo the miraculously smooth and impermeable surfaces. With various damp, wet, dusty, hot and cold environments, including six months of submersion, the PDMS networks remained inert and unaffected by their environment. The orientation of molecules, molecular density and physical integrity remained virtually unchanged by the passage of time, changes in temperature or humidity, barometric pressure or exposure to normal wear and tear. "The molecules on the surface of most self assembled monolayers become disorganized after prolonged exposure to humidity, but we observed very little deterioration in our mechanically assembled monolayers, even after submersion for six months," said Genzer. Genzer's next step will be to test the coating's long term stability and resistance to industrial acids and extreme environmental conditions. He predicts that it will be five years or more before commercial formulas for the process can be put into mass production." David From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 01:57:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA13880; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:56:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 01:56:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 23:56:03 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"JTNhO1.0.oO3.z63Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith - >Oh come on Rick. > >This has all the making's of a media hoax. > >What was the source of the information? "Swiped off the Net"? >Or promotional material from the publisher? > >K. I'm usually not one to quickly post a rumor off some newsgroup message or something. I saw this at a commercial publication's site, and didn't want to name the source and admit to pasting the whole thing verbatim. But I did want to know if anyone's heard about this or the inventor himself. There are some poeple on this list with connections to the inventors around darkest New Hampshire, you know. Theat's where Kamen's shop is. Although it does appear to be a legitimate story, you could be close to the truth - some sort of secret-build-up-hype for something that in the end will prove quite disappointing. Which makes me wonder why intelligent people try to run that scam, unless the product really does have some serious zap to it. Phrases like: ".... It will be an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities."" are pretty descriptive too. That's got to be either energy or transportation if it's not pure hype. And it doesn't sound like energy the way Ginger was bolted together and made Bezos laugh. Assuming the story is basically true, we don't have to assume some new physics or reactionless drive though. With ultralight aircraft for instance, I think there's still some possibilities for unconventional rotor or ornithopter-like machines that haven't been explored. There's some guy used to be with NASA I think trying to build the Man From Glad homocopter with twin ducted fans. I don't like its prospects, but something really clever in that sort of scale that really works, isn't noisy or awfully high strung (meaning dependent on lots of twitchy fast moving Priority 1 components) could be a big thing. But bigger than the Web??? I'm going with the flying jet ski if it's that big. At least that's what I wish it was. They talk about cities and where people live, and that's the sort of thing I think about when I consider a device that makes "where we're going, we don't need roads" a reality. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 06:03:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA30514; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:59:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:59:57 -0800 From: erev4 yahoo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:01:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reproducible CF papers X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer (pbm 1.17b) Message-Id: <200101100752577.SM00301 ws13.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"nxZ4T1.0.iS7.Sh6Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you. The tritweb experiments are very good, readable experiments. Collectively, the papers at http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html give an impression of CF health, although perhaps needing a 'non science major' interface. Thanks again, John Neergaard >>erev4 yahoo.com wrote: >> I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. >There is not much on line. We have miscellaneous links at: >http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/links.html >For pure CF only, see: >http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm >http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html >For recent work in Japan, see: >http://fomcane.nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp/jcf/newe.html - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 06:04:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA30575; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:00:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:00:08 -0800 From: erev4 yahoo.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:01:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reproducible CF papers X-Mailer: The Polarbar Mailer (pbm 1.17b) Message-Id: <200101100752184.SM00301 ws13.pm3b1.hubserv.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Lxgk83.0.XT7.ch6Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you. I shall certainly include your work. John Neergaard Edmund Storms wrote: > Check out http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html for some of my papers. > > Ed Storms > > erev4 yahoo.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have a need for copies of reproducible CF papers or on-line access. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 06:51:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25068; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:45:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:45:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003901c07b2d$ace35be0$5e5bccd1 asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:48:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"UMq9M.0.a76.MM7Nw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was at a FIRST kickoff meeting in Manchester NH a few years ago and heard Dean Kamen and Woody Flowers (of MIT) speak. I am impressed by the man. There have been some stories afloat that Kamen was going to bring to New Hampshire a major technical enterprise, supposedly a well-designed, ready-for-prime-time stirling engine. Dismissing anything associated with Kamen as 'hype' is very premature. He has a track record which includes impressing Presidents. One story has it that he dresses in work clothes (neat and clean) even when visiting the Oval Office as his badge that he represents the real wealth producers of the country as opposed to the suits. His inventions have brought him significant personal wealth. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:01:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA17991; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:55:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 06:55:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5C799E.AF368E98 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:02:54 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: What is IT? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yy9T.0.1P4.vV7Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was going to post this on vortexb; but, it very well could be on topic. What could be more innovative than the internet and will make Kamen worth more than Gates in two years? See: http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20218&pod_id=8 Dean Kamen's bio is impressive: http://www.usfirst.org/bios/dean.html So, what is it? A new energy source? A personal autogyro? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:32:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00108; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:26:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:26:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A5B2C3F.2D7BEF71 idirect.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 10:20:31 -0500 From: Meckanic Organization: Vortex Research Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> <003901c07b2d$ace35be0$5e5bccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ga5_F2.0.lK7.Ey7Nw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, Dean Kamen operates out of Manchester, New Hampshire (one of his locations) on the riverfront. His offices were in, what looks like, restored mill building and are within walking distance of Senator Bob (defence) and State Director Mark Aldrich (this was a few years ago that I was there and Mark pointed out Kamen's location to me on the way back from lunch). Regards, Steve aka Meckanic™ ICQ# 4569541 AIM: x Meckanic x URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic Mike Carrell wrote: > I was at a FIRST kickoff meeting in Manchester NH a few years ago and heard > Dean Kamen and Woody Flowers (of MIT) speak. I am impressed by the man. > There have been some stories afloat that Kamen was going to bring to New > Hampshire a major technical enterprise, supposedly a well-designed, > ready-for-prime-time stirling engine. > > Dismissing anything associated with Kamen as 'hype' is very premature. He > has a track record which includes impressing Presidents. One story has it > that he dresses in work clothes (neat and clean) even when visiting the Oval > Office as his badge that he represents the real wealth producers of the > country as opposed to the suits. His inventions have brought him significant > personal wealth. > > Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:33:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA28373; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:19:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:19:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A5C7F21.B3B4D17 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:26:25 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is IT? References: <3A5C799E.AF368E98 bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aprJV1.0.3x6.4s7Nw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > > I was going to post this on vortexb; but, it very well could be > on topic. What could be more innovative than the internet and > will make Kamen worth more than Gates in two years? See: > > http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20218&pod_id=8 > > Dean Kamen's bio is impressive: > > http://www.usfirst.org/bios/dean.html > > So, what is it? A new energy source? A personal autogyro? Well, it seems that I have been unsubscribed for a couple of days. I have missed the discussions on this by BodySurfer Monteverde. Sorry. However, the Kamen bio seems to be news. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 07:58:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA08511; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:56:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:56:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:55:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re:the nature of human evil Resent-Message-ID: <"juWtj2.0.o42.dO8Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** >An appropriate DILBERT passed to me by "K" > > http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20010107.html > > >1. (Dilbert talking to marketing person) > >DILBERT: No known battery technology can handle this load and be this size. > > >2. (marketing person is scowling) > >DILBERT: That's not what you wanted to hear. > > >3. (marketing person is boiling) > >DILBERT: So your mind will erase what I said... > > >4. >DILBERT: And replace it with something totally ridiculous so you can > question my motives. > >5. (marketing person insane grimace) > >DILBERT: (thinking) The transformation is complete > > >6. > >MARKETING PERSON: HOW CAN YOU SAY THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A BATTERY?!! > > >7. > >MARKETING PERSON: YOU'RE LYING TO AVOID WORK!!! I"M GOING TO TALK TO > YOUR BOSS!! > > > >8. (Dilbert at home later with dogbert) > >DILBERT: Lately, the only thing keeping me from being a serial killer is > my distaste for manual labor. > >DOGBERT: You're preaching to the choir. ***{Yes, it was an excellent cartoon. What it illustrates is the fact that, for some, memory is a self-serving instrument of distortion. This is why it is an essential discipline, in a verbal discussion, to dispute questionable statements immediately, rather than waiting until important details about what was said have been forgotten. And it is why, in a written exchange, it is an essential discipline to quote the actual statement which one is attacking, rather than waiting days or weeks and then attacking a distorted recollection of that statement. For example: (1) On Dec. 8 at 15:21 I posted the following, in response to you: > >Something about your original message was seriously bugging me, and I just > >realized what it is. "if your mind is open and you wish to test 'crazy' > >claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board." > > > >>From Vortex-L rule #2. > > ***{If you intend to interpret the above as banning the use of words such > as "bogus," or "nonsense," or "ridiculous," or "absurd," etc., and give > people the boot based on past violations of said *extremely strained* > interpretation, then you will, in order to be consistent, be forced to ban > every frequent poster from this list, including yourself. My own rule is > straightforward: I generally avoid such words except when dealing with > individuals who have introduced them directly and recently into the > present discussion, or else, like Rothwell, have demonstrated by a lengthy > and clear pattern of behavior that they may do so at any moment. However, > if you want to ban such words, I say go for it! I can easily remove them > from my vocabulary, because I don't like them myself, and use them only > rarely. Rothwell, on the other hand, will have precisely the same chance > of getting by without them as the proverbial snowball has in hell. :-) > --MJ}*** You did not respond to the above at that time, and when you did respond, on Jan. 3 at 19:22, almost a month later, you did not quote the above statement. Instead, you relied on your memory, which acted as an instrument of distortion, leading you to make the following comment: "Am I REALLY banning words such as "bogus" like Mitch insists that I am? OF COURSE NOT." Note that when you examine my actual statement, above, you will find no evidence that I have "insisted" that you are banning such words. Quite the contrary: my statement was qualified by the presence of the word "if," which you forgot, thereby creating a caricature of my original statement that existed only in your mind. Thus you did not respond to what I actually said, but to a fantasy of your own creation--one which, not coincidentally, was in accordance with what you wanted to believe. And those in this group who nodded their heads in agreement with your statement were practicing the same technique as you--to wit: distorting my words in order to support what they wanted to believe, facts be damned. (2) On Dec. 20, at 22:45, I posted the following, again in response to you: > > "one of your arguments, although acceptable in other arenas, violates > > both the rules and the central purpose of this forum." > > > >Note well that I do not say that your argument is inherently "wrong". > > > >The type of argument you used is only "wrong" when it appears on this > >forum. Why? First, because I say so: because I've intentionally designed > >it into the forum. Looking at anomalous evidence is the whole point to > >Vortex-L. > > ***{Such a point, when coupled with a ban against using logic as a > screening tool, is nonsense. Here are some of the reasons: > > (1) Nobody in this group, including you, looks at *all* evidence about > *every* supposed scientific anomaly. > > (2) Everybody in this group, including me, looks at *some* of the evidence > about *some* anomalies. > > (3) Everybody in the group, including you, applies logic to cull out > implausible claims. We may not all use the same logic, but we all--each and > every one of us--uses logic as a screening tool. The reason we do that is > simple: we have no choice. We are finite beings living in a world of > limited resources, and because of that, we cannot read everything, we > cannot research everything we read, and we cannot perform experimental > investigations of all the topics that we research. > > As a result of (1), (2), and (3), above, any alleged rule against using > logic as a screening tool strikes me as balderdash, gobbledygook, nonsense > on stilts, ridiculous, preposterous, ludicrous, etc. > > Do you understand what I am saying? > > Do you understand why you must address what I am saying in order to make > progress in this discussion? > > --Mitchell Jones}*** Once again, you did not respond to the above at the time it was posted, and you did not quote my remarks when, belatedly, you did respond. Instead, on Jan. 3 at 19:22, almost 2 weeks later, you said: " Am I REALLY banning the use of logic on vortex as Mitch insists that I am? OF COURSE NOT." Note the vast difference between a "ban on logic" and a "ban on the use of logic as a screening tool"--to wit: the latter, taken in context, is concerned solely with using logic to narrow down the list of anomalous claims to those that merit laboratory investigation, whereas the former would involve a virtual ban on human speech. Thus, once again, your statement constituted a massive distortion of what I actually said--a distortion made possible by your refusal to accept the discipline of quoting the actual statements that you are criticizing. That means you are guilty, in multiple instances, of the very thing that, in the Dilbert cartoon, you found to be so amusing. I have a final comment below. --Mitchell Jones}*** >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ***{I would add, as a footnote, that some of the things you had said earlier strongly suggested that you thought you had banned the use of logic as a screening tool. For example, on Dec. 7 at 17:42, referring to the atmosphere on sci.physics.fusion--an atmosphere you claimed to be trying to prohibit--you said: A >reasoned and thoughtful online community could never form there because of >fear of emotional attacks from the arrogant ones who knew WITHOUT TESTING >that CF was pure ignorance. The clear implication of the above is that we must rush to the laboratory and test each and every anomalous claim, however illogical or even ridiculous it might be--which means: it is not permissible to use logic as a screening tool. My view, however, is that we *must* use logic as a screening tool, and so it was entirely appropriate for me to point out the reasons supporting such a conclusion. As to why you refuse to respond to those reasons, the answer is obvious: if you do, you will be quickly forced to agree that logic is, in fact, an appropriate screening tool--which will lead posthaste to the conclusion that the central thrust of your analysis of *pathological skepticism* was wrong--which would then force you to admit that when you tarred me with that brush, you were wrong. Unfortunately, you are a man whose ego is too fragile to permit such an admission, or even to allow you to simply stop sniping away so that we can agree to disagree and move on. You have to "win" somehow, and to crown your "victory" with a grand symbolic gesture, by fixing what ain't broken--the rules of this group--in a way that will render it a useless forum to persons such as myself. Thus your moral crisis, and the associated downward spiral toward moral collapse, continues. --Mitchell Jones}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:09:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA14860; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:08:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:08:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003901c07b2d$ace35be0$5e5bccd1 asus> References: <67hn5t4jtjaianu2ch0vp4n2ki766cjc0c 4ax.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:07:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Resent-Message-ID: <"5Z46w3.0.1e3.Ia8Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I was at a FIRST kickoff meeting in Manchester NH a few years ago and heard >Dean Kamen and Woody Flowers (of MIT) speak. I am impressed by the man. >There have been some stories afloat that Kamen was going to bring to New >Hampshire a major technical enterprise, supposedly a well-designed, >ready-for-prime-time stirling engine. ***{There is already a much improved Stirling engine on the market. See http://www.victronenergie.nl/prod/index.htm. --MJ}*** >Dismissing anything associated with Kamen as 'hype' is very premature. He >has a track record which includes impressing Presidents. One story has it >that he dresses in work clothes (neat and clean) even when visiting the Oval >Office as his badge that he represents the real wealth producers of the >country as opposed to the suits. His inventions have brought him significant >personal wealth. > >Mike Carrell ________________ Quote of the month: "He's violated no rules." --Bill Beaty From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:20:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16208; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:11:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:11:09 -0800 Message-Id: <200101101611.LAA05845 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: What is IT? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:07:25 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"h_kRN2.0.Az3.Tc8Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I was going to post this on vortexb; but, it very well could be >on topic. What could be more innovative than the internet and >will make Kamen worth more than Gates in two years? See: > >http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20218&pod_id=8 I looked at this last night too, based on a hot tip. Looks very exciting, indeed, since Dean Kamen is a 100% solid man. Manchester, NH where Deka is located is just down the road from here. > >Dean Kamen's bio is impressive: > >http://www.usfirst.org/bios/dean.html > >So, what is it? A new energy source? A personal autogyro? I would bet dollars to donuts that it involves either A: A new energy source or B: A new method of propulsion/hovering -- more likely the latter. There is essentially zero chance that this is any kind of hoax or ruse or something stupid. This has to be taken very, very seriously. Kamen is an IE subscriber/recipient, by the way, and has a copy of Fire from Ice on his bookshelf. I know, because I have met him at his home in connection with US First student activities (circa 1997). I will see what else I can learn. I do not see how this device/technology can be kept secret till 2002!!! Too many $$ people will be tyring to find out what it is so they can hedge their stock portfolios. > >Terry Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove Infinite Energy Magazine & New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL) Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 editor infinite-energy.com www.infinite-energy.com 603-228-4516 Phone 603-224-5975 Fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:26:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA05930; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:50:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:50:03 -0800 Sender: jack r2d2.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3A5C928A.64AB9FDC centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:49:14 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ultraviolet anomaly References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xr" Resent-Message-ID: <"aeXSn2.0.SS1.fI8Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, [Regarding Bacillus subtilis ring formation] I have a hard time imagining how formation of a "suicide" toxin can be a selective advantage for any bacteria. Keith Nagel wrote that "The colony starts with uniform density of bacteria, and uniform illumination with UV ..." Were any runs done with the light at a distance outside the edge of the initial colony? If the light were directly over the center of the colony, wouldn't there be a diminution of photons per unit area (however slight) as one moves to the edge of the colony? See further comments below. Jack Smith Keith Nagel wrote: Some strange force or radiation emitted by the UV source? Higher order action on the part of the bacteria? Artifact? Robin van Spaandonk wrote: My guess...under the influence of UV the bacteria produce a toxin which tends to accumulate in the centre, so they all leave. When the light is turned off, they stop making the toxin which then diffuses away, and they migrate back into the vacant regions. Jones Beene wrote: Probably spores instead of toxin. This particular bacteria, Bacillus subtilis, is very photoactive and has been studied for a long time in regard to its solar radiation responses , see: http://www.photobiology.com/photoiupac2000/nichol/ Horace Heffner wrote: I also wonder if the bacteria actually migrate or if reproduction rate affects the poulation density change. Scott Stephens wrote: Or maybe they are photo-voltaic and create an unpleasant electric gradient? Jack writes: Unlike a toxin, an unpleasant electric gradient would direct the path of the bacteria as opposed to killing them, but wouldn't the gradient of the UV light intensity (however slight) be sufficient to do the same thing. UV light is a good bactericide. Keith Nagel wrote: ... if a toxin were collecting why does it concentrate in the center? Jack writes: Some kind of gradient probably explains the behavior of the bacteria; but, if it were a toxin gradient, I think it would be a toxin generated from the corpses of the bacteria killed by the UV light, not by the living bacteria themselves. Keith Nagel wrote: The population density plots are most interesting, basically looking more and more like a delta function as the UV power increases (7W/M^2 to 30W/M^2). If spore formation were the cause, wouldn't growth occur in the center as well as the edges when the lamp was extinguished? But spore formation was not mentioned (at least by my first quick reading of the paper) so I agree it would be a good spot to start looking. Funny thing, you know I'm sitting here trying to imagine what it would be like to be one of those bacteria. Maybe I'd try hiding under another bacteria? (smile) Random walk was ruled out, but I can't help but think of the problem like a state machine. Some simple behavior repeated over the scale of the colony resulting in large scale action. Like, uhmmmm, us? Hi All, As a collective intelligence, bacteria may be smarter than we are: *They can increase the fibrin concentration in our blood to slow the circulation of bactericides. *They can form spores and/or burrow deep into various body tissues, or retreat to the skin. *They can become "cell wall deficient" so that they no longer provide a target for antibiotics. *They can duplicate human outer-surface proteins so that our immune systems do not recognize them; or, if recognized, our immune system response is primarily deflected to our own tissues. {One can have an auto-immune diease at the same time that the bacteria are having a good feed. Current medical practice seems to emphasize palliative {cheap} measures to alleviate the autoimmune distress, as opposed to eliminating the continuing bacterial infection.) An interesting book on this subject is "Plague Time" by Paul W. Ewald. For example, p. 109, Ewald writes concerning a Finnish study: "... 70 percent of the samples from heart attack patients had antibodies to Chlamydia [pneumoniae]. This percentage was significantly higher than the percentage in the control serums from people who had not had heart attacks." Is it possible that all the deaths in recorded history from bubonic plague are miniscule comapred to the people who are dying right now from heart disease due to chronic bacterial infection? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 08:39:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10178; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:07:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:07:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C6D hersilia.dvdempire.lan> From: "Tz'Akh" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: What is IT? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:58:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"UEZ_U.0.wU2.ZY8Nw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: let's remember, this is 'a personal consumer device that replaces something expensive, frustrating, and dangerous that requires city infrastructure changes can only be a transportation device'. lest we forget: Kamen own two other interesting patenst for 1). a powered bipedal walker with a built-in control system (power source not specified), & 2) a really cheap and very efficient Stirling-Cycle engine with no net angular momentum (that is, it produces pure linear momentum--not even cars can boast that) now supposedly (and this is a real big rumor), they're talking with Bose about production. maybe.... maybe not; but Bose has a handle on acoustics and resonance - working with these assumptions you don't have to stretch it too far to see an interaction with Bose. let not forget the things from the interview: ~~~ IT is not a medical invention. In a private meeting with Bezos, Jobs and Doerr, Kamen assembled two Gingers - or ITs - in 10 minutes, using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and some cardboard boxes. The invention has a fun element to it, because once a Ginger was turned on, Bezos started laughing his "loud, honking laugh". There are possibly two Ginger models, named Metro and Pro - and the Metro may possibly cost less than $2,000. Bezos is quoted as saying that IT "...is a product so revolutionary, you'll have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?" Jobs is quoted as saying: "...If enough people see the machine you won't have to convince them to architect cities around it. It'll just happen." Kemper says the invention will "sweep over the world and change lives, cities, and ways of thinking." The "core technology and its implementations" will, according to Kamen, "have a big, broad impact not only on social institutions but some billion-dollar old-line companies." And the invention will "profoundly affect our environment and the way people live worldwide. It will be an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities." IT will be a mass-market consumer product "likely to run afoul of existing regulations and or inspire new ones," according to Kemper. The invention will also likely require "meeting with city planners, regulators, legislators, large commercial companies and university presidents about how cities, companies and campuses can be retro-fitted for Ginger." ~~~ and lets not forget Kamen himself: "a true eccentric, cantankerous and opinionated, a great character," according to the proposal - dropped out of college in his 20s, then invented the first drug infusion pump; he later created the first portable insulin pump and dialysis machine. not too shabby..... so it's 'revolutionary', brings up questions of whether peopel will be 'allowed' to use it, incites giddyness adn laughter 'when turned on' (must be pretty different), will 'change tha architecture of cities', 'change the way peopel think', will affect the old companies too, has 2 models, "Metro" and "Pro" (!), is an 'alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities', will 'likely run afoul of existing regulations and or inspire new ones', and will involve the planning of cities, compaies, and *college campuses*? and lets not forget Bexo's and Job's flare for presentation and style.... all this talk about "IT", has onyone considered that it may really be "I.T." for something like "Individual Transport" course, if you invented a super-cool transporation device, why woudl you demo it to Bezos and Jobs? the only reason i can think of is beauce they can sell *anything*. it's total hype or something we've all been talking about here for a while....... de-lurking off the starboard bow -Zak > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:03 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: What is IT? > > > I was going to post this on vortexb; but, it very well could be > on topic. What could be more innovative than the internet and > will make Kamen worth more than Gates in two years? See: > > http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20218&pod_id=8 > > Dean Kamen's bio is impressive: > > http://www.usfirst.org/bios/dean.html > > So, what is it? A new energy source? A personal autogyro? > > Terry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 09:15:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA21897; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:05:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:05:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C71 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> From: "Tz'Akh" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: What is IT? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:56:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"u5bmB3.0.2M5.DP9Nw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: the peopels may be interested http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,092,249'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,092,249&RS= PN/6,092,249 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,062,600'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,062,600&RS= PN/6,062,600 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,062,023'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,062,023&RS= PN/6,062,023 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,975,225'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,975,225&RS= PN/5,975,225 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,971,091'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,971,091&RS= PN/5,971,091 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,794,730'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,794,730&RS= PN/5,794,730 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,791,425'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,791,425&RS= PN/5,791,425 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,701,965'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,701,965&RS= PN/5,701,965 http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,522,568'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,522,568&RS= PN/5,522,568 The most interesting relation to 'Ginger' htat turned up was a reference fromt eh recent movie "Chicken Run". A quote from the review "...partly thanks to Ginger, who believes that he'll be able to teach her and the rest of the chickens to fly". "where are the Flying Cars? I was promised Flying Cars" -sisco, from that IBM commercial -Zak > -----Original Message----- > From: Tz'Akh [mailto:zak dvdempire.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:58 AM > To: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' > Subject: RE: What is IT? > > > let's remember, this is 'a personal consumer device that > replaces something > expensive, frustrating, and dangerous that requires city > infrastructure > changes can only be a transportation device'. > > lest we forget: Kamen own two other interesting patenst for > 1). a powered > bipedal walker with a built-in control system (power source > not specified), > & 2) a really cheap and very efficient Stirling-Cycle engine > with no net > angular momentum (that is, it produces pure linear > momentum--not even cars > can boast that) > > now supposedly (and this is a real big rumor), they're > talking with Bose > about production. maybe.... maybe not; but Bose has a handle > on acoustics > and resonance - working with these assumptions you don't have > to stretch it > too far to see an interaction with Bose. > > let not forget the things from the interview: > > ~~~ > IT is not a medical invention. > > In a private meeting with Bezos, Jobs and Doerr, Kamen > assembled two Gingers > - or ITs - in 10 minutes, using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from > components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and > some cardboard > boxes. > > The invention has a fun element to it, because once a Ginger > was turned on, > Bezos started laughing his "loud, honking laugh". > > There are possibly two Ginger models, named Metro and Pro - > and the Metro > may possibly cost less than $2,000. > > Bezos is quoted as saying that IT "...is a product so > revolutionary, you'll > have no problem selling it. The question is, are people going > to be allowed > to use it?" > > Jobs is quoted as saying: "...If enough people see the > machine you won't > have to convince them to architect cities around it. It'll > just happen." > > Kemper says the invention will "sweep over the world and change lives, > cities, and ways of thinking." > > The "core technology and its implementations" will, according > to Kamen, > "have a big, broad impact not only on social institutions but some > billion-dollar old-line companies." And the invention will "profoundly > affect our environment and the way people live worldwide. It > will be an > alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes > dangerous and > often frustrating, especially for people in the cities." > > IT will be a mass-market consumer product "likely to run > afoul of existing > regulations and or inspire new ones," according to Kemper. > The invention > will also likely require "meeting with city planners, regulators, > legislators, large commercial companies and university > presidents about how > cities, companies and campuses can be retro-fitted for Ginger." > ~~~ > > and lets not forget Kamen himself: > "a true eccentric, cantankerous and opinionated, a great character," > according to the proposal - dropped out of college in his > 20s, then invented > the first drug infusion pump; he later created the first > portable insulin > pump and dialysis machine. > > > not too shabby..... > > so it's 'revolutionary', brings up questions of whether peopel will be > 'allowed' to use it, incites giddyness adn laughter 'when > turned on' (must > be pretty different), will 'change tha architecture of > cities', 'change the > way peopel think', will affect the old companies too, has 2 > models, "Metro" > and "Pro" (!), is an 'alternative to products that are dirty, > expensive, > sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for > people in the > cities', will 'likely run afoul of existing regulations and > or inspire new > ones', and will involve the planning of cities, compaies, and *college > campuses*? > > and lets not forget Bexo's and Job's flare for presentation > and style.... > all this talk about "IT", has onyone considered that it may > really be "I.T." > for something like "Individual Transport" > > course, if you invented a super-cool transporation device, > why woudl you > demo it to Bezos and Jobs? the only reason i can think of is > beauce they > can sell *anything*. > > > > it's total hype or something we've all been talking about here for a > while....... > > > de-lurking off the starboard bow > -Zak > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 10:03 AM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: What is IT? > > > > > > I was going to post this on vortexb; but, it very well could be > > on topic. What could be more innovative than the internet and > > will make Kamen worth more than Gates in two years? See: > > > > http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20218&pod_id=8 > > > > Dean Kamen's bio is impressive: > > > > http://www.usfirst.org/bios/dean.html > > > > So, what is it? A new energy source? A personal autogyro? > > > > Terry > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 09:39:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA29384; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:37:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:37:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5C9F97.4AB4F7A5 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:44:55 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is IT? References: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C6D hersilia.dvdempire.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4WBpY1.0.nA7.qt9Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tz'Akh wrote: > > let's remember, this is 'a personal consumer device that replaces something > expensive, frustrating, and dangerous that requires city infrastructure > changes can only be a transportation device'. > > lest we forget: Kamen own two other interesting patenst for 1). a powered > bipedal walker with a built-in control system (power source not specified), > & 2) a really cheap and very efficient Stirling-Cycle engine with no net > angular momentum (that is, it produces pure linear momentum--not even cars > can boast that) > > now supposedly (and this is a real big rumor), they're talking with Bose > about production. maybe.... maybe not; but Bose has a handle on acoustics > and resonance - working with these assumptions you don't have to stretch it > too far to see an interaction with Bose. > > let not forget the things from the interview: > > ~~~ > IT is not a medical invention. > > In a private meeting with Bezos, Jobs and Doerr, Kamen assembled two Gingers > - or ITs - in 10 minutes, using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from > components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and some cardboard > boxes. There could be a clue in "assembled two Gingers". Maybe it takes two to tango? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:03:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05843; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:00:32 -0800 Message-ID: <20010110180029.29305.qmail web5303.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Florek Subject: Re: What is IT? To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"FIKJi.0.8R1.0DANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I searched for patents by Dean Kamen on the USPTO site--this one seemed the most probable: http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=12&f=G&l=50&d=ft00&S1=Kamen.INZZ.&OS=in/Kamen&RS=IN/Kamen The engine is designed to minimize vibrations and increase heat efficiency over your run-of-the-mill Stirling engine. It is also designed to be low-emission. However, I think I now know what IT is... Legged wheelchair invention... Chicken Run connection... It takes two "Gingers" to work... Need to keep vibrations low... Linear momentum only... Kamen has invented the mechanical walking trousers from the Wallace & Grommit short, "The Wrong Trousers"! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:08:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07972; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:04:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:04:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5CA5BE.274C9E75 bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:11:10 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What is IT? References: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C71 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GtDJk1.0.Py1.QGANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tz'Akh wrote: > > the peopels may be interested Okay, I have looked at Kamen's patents and I think he has invented a hovercraft which uses a resonating liquid bladder to elevate the vehicle. He would probably like to call it the Personal Transportation device; but, Chrysler has the PT Cruiser. :-) BTW, IBM's patent web site now redirects to: http://www.delphion.com/ FYI, Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:29:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA16923; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:06 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:20:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Scott's C F replications Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"0kStz3.0.L84.DXANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote; > >Scott, this may be why your Piantelli replication result was negative - your >hammer was made of the wrong metal! ;). This post reminds me of a question that has been in my mind, how many replications of C F have you attempted? Have any worked? I'm disappointed that you were unable to replicate Piantelli. I just became aware of the work of Dr. Gritskevitch. He claimed to have developed an electrical generator which involved a rotating torroid. According to Dale Pond, his claims fitted with what he knows about sympathetic vibrational physics. Does anyone know anything about his generator? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:30:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17209; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010109084631.00ab0c48 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010109084631.00ab0c48 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:20:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Proton decay experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"_Ye3a1.0.lC4.iXANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >In recent years, however, an increasing number of scientists believe >that protons gradually decay, with an average life expectancy >equivalent to 20 orders of magnitude longer than the age of the >universe. The theory implies that all matter in the universe will >ultimately cease to exist. >. . . These people obviously have nothing better to do with their time. Twenty orders of magnitude longer then the age of the universe, that's just an unfathomably long time. I wonder why they think that some of the protrons would be decaying now, would they slowly loose weight? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:31:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA17114; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:22:28 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: temalloy metro.lakes.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:20:42 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: RE: Shoulders and E-M pinch Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"7rcIU2.0.FB4.ZXANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > >< >> --- xplorer wrote: >> > >> > Hope someone can help on this one. >> > > > > If I read Ken Shoulders stuff right, > > > > * During the process of accelerating >> > across the potential, they seem to >> > 'batch together' (due to 'magnetic pinch' ?) >> > forming a sort of 'electron bullet'. > > > I had the idea that perhaps it might be possible to use K S's technology to accelerate atomic nuceuli. What I had in mind was using Boron Chloride, which goes into a vapor at a low temperature and injecting it in front of the needle electrode. The idea being to propel the boron nucelui into a tungsten target. The intention being to initiate fusion. I suggested this to Mark Goldes and didn't receive a reply, I suppose that given the time and energy required to transmutate a significant number of atoms, it would be cheaper to dig it out of the ground. > >I am simply asking for information with regards > to arcs punching through insulation, particularly > in terms of the energy density during transit as well > as the nature of the energy release upon impact. > >My interest in Ken Shoulders info is simply to > put his observations in perspective, reducing > it to coherent points, so I can check these ideas > in my experiments. If you have the means to set up a vacuum chamber, I would encourage you to build the device that Shoulders describes and see what it does. If you have the means to do something like that I would like to suggest an experiment based on Walter Russell's works. It involves vaporizing an element in a chamber with a soloinoid placed an a specific angle to the chamber. In an experiment reported by Grotz, et al at the '95 INE symposium, they reported anomolous amounts of other elements not in the tube prevously. > >> No one can dispute >> that Shoulders research is showing the breif possible >> episodes of over unity during high energy display but >> this is an anomalie already over a century old. Or did >> I already make this post/sorry for the redundancy. >> Sincerely HDN > >cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:39:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA19939; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:28:36 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:31:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"ggarI.0.Fs4.AdANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick. You asked: >Although it does appear to be a legitimate story, you could be close >to the truth - some sort of secret-build-up-hype for something that >in the end will prove quite disappointing. Which makes me wonder why >intelligent people try to run that scam, unless the product really >does have some serious zap to it. What comes to mind from recent history is the build-up of Transmeta. For those out-of-the-loop, these folks hired a bunch of famous people, sucked down big VC money, and remained completely secret about the product they were developing. The interest reached a fever pitch, when they finally revealed that it was to be a new super efficient microprocessor. Now that the devices are being fabricated, it's become apparent to the major players (intel etc) that these things aren't nearly as good as the hype. So companies with initial licensing agreements are backing off production. Don't get me wrong, I thought transmeta had a good idea. What the hype did was take a good idea, and make it IPO gold for the investors. It did not make the good idea a great idea. I looked at some speeches of Mr. Karmens, he says some very good things. His pro-geek stance is a breath of fresh air in todays media climate. I mean, how can you not like the guy when he questions why everyone knows the name of a pro-football quarterback and nobody knows who invented the polyphase motor? (I'm paraphrasing here, check the web for transcripts of his original speech). I like the sleuthing done on IT and Ginger, the reference to Chicken Run is very clever. I hope it is what people are saying, but if it is a personal flying device I wonder just how big an impact it will have? I'm having great difficulty imagining the FAA allowing people to use these things like cars in cities. Safety and insurance issues would be a nightmare. Here's where the great idea (flying people) comes down to earth to be simply a good idea. I think the Jet-Ski analogy is a good one, something which is used for leisure and sport by the 20-40 year old set. Perhaps this will be it's real impact, that and the lessening of road building. That alone would be worth knighting the man for. Cars and roads suck, IMHO. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 10:40:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22303; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:33:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 10:33:12 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: the nature of human evil Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:36:11 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"p2_57.0.BS5.bhANw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi Mitch. Mitch writes ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** His reply-to is set correctly, the message was not sent to vortex but to you personally. But perhaps this is not what you want to hear.... K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 11:13:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA05211; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:09:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:09:43 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010110124245.009592d0 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:09:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: What is IT? In-Reply-To: <3A5CA5BE.274C9E75 bellsouth.net> References: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C71 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"VF0Ep.0.KH1.sDBNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Another thought. It will be an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities." Its a sonic lawn mower :-) Seriously... has anybody considered (looking at the patents and considering exposure to Bose and Microsoft) its a Virtual Reality body shell. A device that imparts to the user all of the sensations that are correct for the particular programmed experiance. Movement via acceleration and tilt. Pressure to you body offered by say walking or climbing or standing in the wind, The inventions of visual and audible 3d are already avaliable. Now consider this... http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1& u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,975,225'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,975,225&RS= PN/5,975,225 From the abstract... "There is provided, in a preferred embodiment, a vehicle for transporting a payload (which may but need not include a human subject)" and Related methods are also provided, including an indication system which modulates the pitch and repetition rate of an audible or tactile signal in accordance with speed and orientation of the vehicle. Its a remote you... Go do your thrill seeking by remote control... if you crash into a cliff or fall off the side of a mountain It is only the remote module that you loose... At 01:11 PM 1/10/01 -0500, you wrote: >Tz'Akh wrote: > > > > the peopels may be interested > > > >Okay, I have looked at Kamen's patents and I think he has >invented a hovercraft which uses a resonating liquid bladder to >elevate the vehicle. > >He would probably like to call it the Personal Transportation >device; but, Chrysler has the PT Cruiser. :-) > >BTW, IBM's patent web site now redirects to: > >http://www.delphion.com/ > >FYI, > >Terry Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 11:51:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA22377; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:42:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:42:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5CBCCE.D2FD996A bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:49:34 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tapping ZPE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D6DiA2.0.PT5.OiBNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: "Scientists switch to warp drive as sci-fi energy source is tapped" http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/spacedocumentary/story/0,2763,418977,00.html That's it! Dean Kamen has invented a ZPE engine. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 13:37:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03266; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:16:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:16:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C77 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> From: "Tz'Akh" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Tapping ZPE Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:05:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"nhBwP2.0.vo.45DNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: given the spiral/egg-form shapes of some of the stirling engine designs, you may be joking a bit less then you intended ;) -Z btw: has anyone else on-list here worked with sonoluminescence? > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 2:50 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Tapping ZPE > > > "Scientists switch to warp drive as sci-fi energy source is > tapped" > > http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/spacedocumentary/story/0,27 > 63,418977,00.html > > That's it! Dean Kamen has invented a ZPE engine. :-) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 14:41:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA26366; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:27:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Gli2s2.0.lR6.X7ENw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > Mitch writes > ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I > am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** > > His reply-to is set correctly, the message was not sent to vortex > but to you personally. Nope, the problem is on my end. I thought I'd answered mail on this on 12/6, but I think it got deleted rather than sent. Eskimo.com has a continuing bug with PINE and reply-to. The reply-to feature is turned off on my end, yet every so often one of my messages to vortex-L has a reply-to:billb eskimo.com. Since others aren't having this problem, I assume that it's PINE and not vortex-L doing it. I've contacted eskimo.com before about this, but they don't really want to track down such a rare bug, and PINE users are a tiny minority. So I'm stuck with it. Everyone: when replying to me on vortex-L, note that my stupid email program sporadically inserts a reply-to, which forces your replies to be private rather than going to vortex-L. When replying, look at the "TO:" line of the message. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 16:09:01 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA25653; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:06:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:06:07 -0800 Message-Id: <200101110005.TAA08911 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Hartford Courant coverage of "IT" Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:02:04 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"L6FLn.0.KG6.aZFNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Internet Blurts Out Writer's Secret By MARY K. FEENEY The Hartford Courant January 10, 2001 There are apparently no secrets on the Internet, at least in the cutthroat publishing business. Inside.com, a Web site for the digital media world, posted a story Tuesday afternoon involving Hartford journalist Steve Kemper and his proposal for a book about a secret invention that reportedly rivals the Internet and the personal computer in significance - a device, the author says, that will change the world. But Kemper, whose work has been published in Northeast and major magazines including National Geographic, was surprised Tuesday when informed that details of his proposal had been leaked to the Web site. "I don't know how it ever got out," he said. "I don't think I really want to say anything about it. There's a lot more here than I expected to see." Almost immediately after the story was posted, Inside.com created a message board for readers who wanted to speculate about the invention. "I'll bet it's a jet pack," one guessed, along with others who thought it might be a flying car or a perpetual motion machine. But some suggested the story might be a hoax. "It's got all the elements," someone wrote. "Just a little too good to be true." Inside.com reported that the invention (known now as either "IT" or by its code name, "Ginger") was developed by New Hampshire scientific genius Dean Kamen and will be introduced in 2002. The top-secret project has been seen only by Kamen, Kemper, engineers and investors, among them heavy-hitting venture capitalists and CEOs. Kemper, as expected, wasn't elaborating. "IT" has drawn the attention of Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos (Amazon.com) who reportedly met with Kamen and watched him assemble two of the machines "using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and some cardboard boxes." When Ginger was turned on, the story reports, Bezos let out a "loud, honking laugh." The Inside.com story quoted extensively from Kemper's proposal, but quoted no one except Hollis Heimbouch, executive editor of the Harvard Business School Press. Reached Tuesday, Heimbouch wouldn't confirm that the press paid a $250,000 advance for the book, which she said is tentatively scheduled for publication in 2003, depending on the development of the invention. And she said it was "unusual" to buy a book proposal for an invention that is still being kept under wraps, even from the publisher. But Heimbouch's comments seemed to discount the hoax idea. "Given who we are and the kinds of books we publish, we were aware of the invention, if certainly not who Dean Kamen was," she said. "We had heard from a number of people that he was doing significant, important work, and felt like other people were supporting the work he was doing. It was an easier decision for us, given the good feedback from people in the worlds of science and technology." According to the proposal, Ginger will be a consumer product that Kemper says "will sweep over the world and change lives, cities and ways of thinking," one that will affect the environment positively. Bezos is quoted as questioning, however, whether the public will be allowed to use it. "Given Dean Kamen's work and the incredible inventions he's already brought to the world, there's good reason to believe it's something important," Heimbouch said. Kamen, 49, is the president and owner of DEKA Research & Development Corp., and reportedly commutes to work in Manchester, N.H., in a small helicopter. He is the inventor of the Ibot Transporter, a revolutionary six-wheeled, wheelchair-like device that climbs stairs and other difficult surfaces and can balance on two wheels. He developed the first portable insulin pump and a portable dialysis unit and is the founder of a nonprofit group that promotes math and science careers for young people. Kemper is working on the book as the invention is being developed, Heimbouch said, rather than reporting on a finished product. Kemper's literary agent did not return phone calls, and Heimbouch said she couldn't be sure how the proposal was leaked. But the proposal was submitted by e-mail by the author and agent, she said, rather than a formal printed document, which was somewhat unusual, she said. "I know I wasn't the only [publisher] who got the proposal," Heimbouch said. "When editors have to make decisions on projects like this, they typically have to share it with colleagues in the company. As tight as you try to keep these things, they have a way of getting out." She added that she believes it will be a "wonderful book" because Kemper has the advantage of access to Kamen and his associates. Asked whether the publicity will help or harm the book, with others rushing to get the story first, she said, "I think all publicity helps. What will matter for the book is that it's an incredible story, incredibly told. I don't think the publicity really matters. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 16:55:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA10342; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:52:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:52:58 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:19:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"b3idy1.0.HX2.fFGNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A So why didn't we receive your initial message? Could you perhaps have sent it to vortexb? Either way, it never appeared on vortex. And belongs on B, thats for sure. By the way, I'm curious why B isn't archived on escribe. K. -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 5:28 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > Mitch writes > ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I > am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** > > His reply-to is set correctly, the message was not sent to vortex > but to you personally. Nope, the problem is on my end. I thought I'd answered mail on this on 12/6, but I think it got deleted rather than sent. Eskimo.com has a continuing bug with PINE and reply-to. The reply-to feature is turned off on my end, yet every so often one of my messages to vortex-L has a reply-to:billb eskimo.com. Since others aren't having this problem, I assume that it's PINE and not vortex-L doing it. I've contacted eskimo.com before about this, but they don't really want to track down such a rare bug, and PINE users are a tiny minority. So I'm stuck with it. Everyone: when replying to me on vortex-L, note that my stupid email program sporadically inserts a reply-to, which forces your replies to be private rather than going to vortex-L. When replying, look at the "TO:" line of the message. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 17:14:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA20023; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:11:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:11:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:08:36 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fyQCm1.0.nu4.dWGNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill I use pine at school, and the return address was vortex-l eskimo.com This is what I am replying too. Hank On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, William Beaty wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > > Mitch writes > > ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I > > am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** > > > > His reply-to is set correctly, the message was not sent to vortex > > but to you personally. > > Nope, the problem is on my end. I thought I'd answered mail on this on > 12/6, but I think it got deleted rather than sent. > > Eskimo.com has a continuing bug with PINE and reply-to. The reply-to > feature is turned off on my end, yet every so often one of my messages to > vortex-L has a reply-to:billb eskimo.com. Since others aren't having this > problem, I assume that it's PINE and not vortex-L doing it. I've > contacted eskimo.com before about this, but they don't really want to > track down such a rare bug, and PINE users are a tiny minority. So I'm > stuck with it. > > Everyone: when replying to me on vortex-L, note that my stupid email > program sporadically inserts a reply-to, which forces your replies to be > private rather than going to vortex-L. When replying, look at the "TO:" > line of the message. > > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 19:01:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA02102; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:57:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:57:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:56:55 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"D7W_e1.0.kW.y3INw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > Bill > I use pine at school, and the return address was > vortex-l eskimo.com > This is what I am replying too. The problem only appears sporadically. Go up to "vortex problems" and you'll see one of my messages with the overriden reply-to. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 19:15:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA05890; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:06:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:06:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A5D207D.49279D76 enter.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:54:53 -0500 From: David Rosignoli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't trust billb REPLY-TO!!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xHjdT.0.pR1.-CINw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone know how to setup PINE to do an automatic forwarding? William Beaty wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > > Mitch writes > > ***{Since you, once again, have your "reply-to" header set incorrectly, I > > am, once again, forced to send a message twice. Arg. --MJ}*** > > > > His reply-to is set correctly, the message was not sent to vortex > > but to you personally. > > Nope, the problem is on my end. I thought I'd answered mail on this on > 12/6, but I think it got deleted rather than sent. > > Eskimo.com has a continuing bug with PINE and reply-to. The reply-to > feature is turned off on my end, yet every so often one of my messages to > vortex-L has a reply-to:billb eskimo.com. Since others aren't having this > problem, I assume that it's PINE and not vortex-L doing it. I've > contacted eskimo.com before about this, but they don't really want to > track down such a rare bug, and PINE users are a tiny minority. So I'm > stuck with it. > > Everyone: when replying to me on vortex-L, note that my stupid email > program sporadically inserts a reply-to, which forces your replies to be > private rather than going to vortex-L. When replying, look at the "TO:" > line of the message. > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 19:25:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08437; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:22:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:22:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:23:09 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion In-reply-to: <3A5BD97A.85CF4961 enter.net> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"jtZPd2.0.f32.1SINw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:39 PM 1/9/2001 -0500, David Rosignoli wrote: >Okay. Fine. I agree completely with you so far. And find that bit about >hidden momentum fascinating. Let me just add the following URL written >by Marc Millis of NASA: >http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/TM-107289.htm > >In it he describes some of the challenges when confronted with creating >a space drive. He uses speculative (conventional) physics in his >argument, but his reasoning is a generic one. He essentially breaks it >down into the following: >1)Hypothetical collision sails >2)Hypothetical Field Drives Millis may be including some things in his field drives that obviously won't work in the cold harsh light of Conservation of Momentum. For instance the "Pitch drive" in which space is distorted around the ship in such a way that the ship "surfs" along on a slope appears to be in direct violation of COM, especially if the ship takes the pitch along with it. >Then, of course, there is Hal Puthoff's work: >http://www.earthtech.org/publications/JSEv12_295.pdf Yes, the ZPF-inertia relationship is a very topical issue right now. If the ZPF can exert forces on accelerating bodies, then it stands to reason that we should be able to deliberately exert a force on the ZPF somehow. Of course, since it's just EM radiation, it may turn out that it's just a photon rocket that exerts a force on the ZPF. >Just thinking aloud, one could create a space drive if you had a >spacecraft(s/c) that could interact with the universe. That is, the s/c >pushes in one direction, and all of space is pushed in the opposite >direction. THIS is now my most hopeful direction in which to look for possible new space drives. Problem is, exactly where do we start looking? We don't know HOW to interact with the rest of the universe...do we? >Or, if the s/c used a negative matter drive, ala Robert Foward, where a >positive mass and a negative mass accelerate together. Since linear >momentum is conserved, no laws are broken, with the exception of >negative mass. Can the vacuum provide us with a negative mass/energy >density? Is there a way to alter the vaccuum characteristics to allow us >to do this? This remains to be seen. Cool! I hadn't heard of this idea. Boy, Forward has really been around the track a few times. He visited us once a couple of years ago....what a MIND! In 20 minutes he saw right through something that had been fooling us for months! >There are some interesting experiments suggested here, including the >Woodward experiment. >http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/summ.htm Woodward's early stuff was clearly in violation of COM...but lately I've heard he's starting to appeal to a Machian viewpoint wherein he thinks his device is interacting with the rest of the universe...so maybe there's something there. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 20:44:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25049; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:40:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:40:06 -0800 (PST) From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrino formation IN Ni hydride Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:36:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA24562 Resent-Message-ID: <"4JYuL.0.876.WaJNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to xplorer's message of Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:08:38 +0700: [snip] >What kinds of artifacts would you > expect of an arc discharge from > Ni in H2O that might distinguish it > from chrome or steel ? [snip] Sorry, I can't be of much help I'm afraid. You could try looking at flame or bead analysis colours for the salts of those metals. You can check out emission spectra of the elements at http://javalab.uoregon.edu/dcaley/elements/Elements.html . However I suspect the wire you have probably has small amounts of various other metals in it as well as Ni and Cr. You could try doing spectral analysis of the light from the arc, but unless you have proper equipment, it probably won't help you much. If it's really all that important, then your best bet is probably to have the analysis done at either a large lab, or with a bit of luck, at your local University (for free if you can get someone interested?). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 21:21:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04135; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <94.e986a02.278e9bcd aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:17:01 EST Subject: LaFonte Research Group on eGroups now To: ou-builders egroups.com, jlnlabs@egroups.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, energy21 listbot.com, tlamb3@mindspring.com, SBouchillo@aol.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com CC: LaFonteMembers aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_94.e986a02.278e9bcd_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 352 Resent-Message-ID: <"v2Rgj3.0.Q01.z7KNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --part1_94.e986a02.278e9bcd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Welcome to the LaFonteResearch group at eGroups, a free, easy-to-use email group service. Please take a moment to review this message. To start sending messages to members of this group, simply send email to LaFonteResearch egroups.com If you do not wish to belong to LaFonteResearch, you may unsubscribe by sending an email to LaFonteResearch-unsubscribe egroups.com You may also visit the eGroups web site to modify your subscriptions: http://www.egroups.com/mygroups Regards, Moderator, LaFonteResearch --part1_94.e986a02.278e9bcd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello,

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--part1_94.e986a02.278e9bcd_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 21:49:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12657; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:32:29 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"LzVJn2.0.e53.RaKNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - >THIS is now my most hopeful direction in which to look for possible >new space drives. Problem is, exactly where do we start looking? >We don't know HOW to interact with the rest of the universe...do we? There's the Woodward experiment. Might be a way to isolate that more clearly than experiments done so far. Woodward believes the effect he thinks he sees is a Machian push-the-universe effect. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 10 21:50:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA12597; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:48:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:27:22 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: Does anyone recognize any names in this? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"OHPd-1.0.i43.HaKNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith - >What comes to mind from recent history is the build-up of Transmeta. Yup. I was pretty pissed at what they did. I even had a little stock in Patriot Scientific (PTSC), a San Diego company with a decent Java chip. They got crunched by the Crusoe hype. I didn't lose anything, but I wouldn't put it past even some of those big names to fall in with that kind of thing. I hope it's a hoverboard or a flying car, but wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out to be an engine powered Razor scooter with a built-in Bose MP3 player. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 00:33:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA32698; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:31:50 -0800 Message-ID: <20010111083144.17111.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 00:31:44 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Dtt2S3.0.c-7.pzMNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > So I am asking anyone on Vortex > who is confident of their skill in mathematics to do a calculation > of the problem. I will reply. Since John could not read math in a previous post, I will just outline the steps with a bit of the mathematical detail for those interested. I do not want to give a course on partial differential equations and other topics here. > I will lay out the problem. > You have a 1 mile long straight pipe 5 inches inside diameter with > a valve at the start [snip] > Now water flows from the start to the end of the pipe at a good > rate, I will let the > person doing the calculations decide the speed, but it should be > quite fast. I will do the calculation for any length, L. I will simplify the problem by assuming that the pipe wall is infinitely rigid. This lets me do a one dimensional calculation instead of a 2D one, and it frees us from the complexities of dispersive waves. The pipe diameter has no effect and need not be specified. I will also assume that the valve that closes the pipe outlet is also infinitely rigid and that it acts instantaneously. All this is in the spirit of keeping the calculation simple without discarding the essentials. When one sets out to calculate some behavior of a physical system, one starts by "making a mathematical model." This just means deriving (or looking up, if the problem has been done before) equations that describe the behavior of the system's constituent components. This is physics. Next, one solves the equations. This is math. Finally, one displays the solution in various ways and interprets the results. This is learning. Mathematical model: We will need three equations: 1) Newton's F = ma, written for an infinitessimal element of water. This was done a couple of centuries ago for fluids and is rho_o ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = - @p/@x (1) where is the partial derivative operator; @^2/@t^2 is the second partial derivative with respect to t. x = position coordinate along the tube t = time roh_o = mass density of the uncompressed fluid (mass/volume) Xi = displacement of the fluid element located at x from its equilibrium position p = pressure at location x. Note that rho_o is constant. Xi and p are both functions of x and t. Note that ^2 Xi/@t^2 is the acceleration of a fluid element. - @p/@x is the net force in the x-direction acting on a fluid element. It arises from nonuniformity of the pressure. 2) Equation of state (EOS). This describes how pressure and density are related to one another for the given fluid. To reduce complexity, I assume a linear relation, which is actually a good approximation for the problem you outlined. My EOS is dp = sig (drho/rho_o) (2) where dp = the CHANGE in pressure from equilibrium. The "d" as in "delta" is to remind you that this is a change. drho = the CHANGE in density from its equilibrium rho_o, when the fluid is compressed. sig = a constant acting like a spring constant. When a fluid element is compressed, its volume decreases slightly, its density increases (drho is positive) and pressure increases (dp is positive). I chose the name "sig" for "sigma" since it is like an elastic modulus, for which sigma is commonly used in mechanics. Note that drho/rho_o is just the negative of the relative volume change of the fluid element. 3) A kinematic (geometric) equation that relates density change to fluid compression: drho/rho_o = - Xi/@x (3) Now we combine the three equations of the model. In this simple problem we can reduce them to a single partial differential equation (PDE): ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = (sig/rho_o) (@^2/@x^2)Xi (4) This is a wave equation in one dimension. It relates time derivatives of the displacement of the fluid to spatial derivatives of the same displacement. In particular, it is the equation for an acoustic wave, where the propagation speed or sound speed cs is cs= sqrt(sig/rho_o) . (5) For water, rho_o = 1000 kg/m^3, sig is about 2e9 Pa = 2 GPa or about 20,000 bar, and cs is a bit over 1400 m/s. The PDE has three solutions, one a wave going in the x-direction with speed cs, the next a wave going in the negative x-direction, also with cs, and the third is uniform flow (changing neither with time nor position) along the pipe. Since this is a linear PDE, the general solution is a sum of the allowable solutions. The wave can be any shape. Additional mathematical manipulation yields relations germain to the suddenly stopped tube problem: dp = +/- sig (v/cs) (6) where v = Xi/@t is the velocity of the fluid element associated with the wave motion. The sign depends on the direction of wave propagation. Note that the pressure rise can be calculated once the velocity change is known. and (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 . (7) The left side of this eqn is kinetic energy/volume of the wave motion. The right side is the potential energy of compression per unit volume, written in two forms. Having obtained the mathematical solution, let us apply it to our particular problem and learn. Before the outlet valve was suddenly closed, water was moving uniformly along the tube at some velocity. Let us call it vo. When the valve closes, the water at the outlet end stops abruptly, but not water farther upstream. How do we represent this with our solutions? We start with the uniformly flowing solution vo. We add the acoustic wave solution that propagates upstream, in the direction away from the valve. We must give the wave an amplitude amplitude that makes the wave displacement velocity v equal and opposite to the uniform flow, i.e. v = - vo (8) from the closing time onward. This makes the sum of the uniform flow solution and the wave solution have zero velocity at the outlet end after the valve is closed. Thus we have matched the problem posed by John. Now, as the wave front propagates upstream, so does its displacement velocity, which equals -vo. Behind the front the fluid velocity is vo + v = vo - vo = 0. Thus, the wave front brings successive fluid elements to a stop, even while fluid upstream of the front is still moving. When the front reaches the inlet end, all the fluid in the tube has been brought to a stop. It took the time L/cs for the wave front to propagate the length of the tube and stop all the fluid. The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just the dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a only a uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get the pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) [We do not need the second wave solution for this problem if we do not try to describe the sprayout and reflections that occur after the front reaches the inlet end. The second wave solution has negative pressure. If the the wave pressure drops below the uniform equilibrium pressure, such as 1 bar as John posed in the problem, then this particular mathematical model is no longer valid, since water normally cannot sustain negative pressures.] Consider some examples. Let vo = 14 m/s (50.4 km/h). Then eq (9) gives dp = 2e7 Pa = 200 bar (3000 psi for gringos) for the pressure rise. If instead, vo = 28 m/s, then dp = 4e7 Pa = 400 bar (6000 psi). When the fluid has been stopped, it has no kinetic energy. However, Eq (7), with v = -vo substituted in, shows that the potential energy of the compressed fluid is just equal to (1/2) rho_o vo^2, the kinetic energy that the water had before the flow was stopped. Eq (1) from Newton and a frictionless fluid EOS give us conservation of energy in a physically simple way---initial kinetic energy became potential energy in compressed fluid. [snip] > The shockwave should travel to the top at the speed of sound in > water which should be a known value. There is no "shockwave" unless the initial water flow speed vo was supersonic, greater than cs. There is an acoustic wave which travels at the speed of sound. [My simplified mathematical model is not accurate for high vo approaching cs, because the EOS deviates appreciably from linearity under those conditions.] [snip] > Finally the energy in the compression of water, which I expect > would be very great as it's > considered almost incompressible so even if only a little resulted > the energy should be far greater than the kinetic energy. The potential energy stored in the compressed water is half the product of the pressure times the displacement. See the middle term of my eq (7). Although the pressure is high, the displacement is small, so the potential energy is not outlandish. In fact, as the math shows, it just equals the lost kinetic energy of the original uniform flow. This is not unusual. It is a common result for all problems of this kind. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 02:19:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA26894; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:18:49 -0800 Message-ID: <00f001c07bb7$ea143b80$5e8e209a nikspentium> From: "Nick Palmer" To: Subject: IT Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:18:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C07BB7.DAB99180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"2hV1v3.0.8a6.9YONw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C07BB7.DAB99180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is this another version of IT? http://explorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C07BB7.DAB99180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is this another version of = IT?

 
 
http://exp= lorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm
------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C07BB7.DAB99180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 05:49:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA06957; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:47:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 05:47:24 -0800 Message-Id: <200101111347.IAA03561 mercury.mv.net> Subject: More on IT -- Infinite Energy's Mallove quoted Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:43:37 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"JVlK8.0.di1.ibRNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hartford Courant NEWS What's The Big Idea? By MATTHEW KAUFFMAN And JOHN MORAN The Hartford Courant January 11, 2001 Down a tree-lined street of huge homes in an old New Hampshire mill town, past wrought iron gates 12 feet high, through the front door of a six-sided house and beyond a 2*-story steam engine that adorns the front entryway, Dean Kamen holds a secret that might change the world. The eccentric inventor, blessed with both extraordinary intelligence and a Midas touch, has spent years perfecting a project that makes fellow geniuses and fellow millionaires gasp. It is known only by its code names: Ginger and IT. Most of Kamen's own employees have been kept in the dark about it. And those in the know sign papers pledging zipped lips. "I can't talk about the work I did, but I know what you're talking about," said Jason Maguire, a former employee at Kamen's DEKA Research and Development Corp in Manchester, N.H. "It was very hush-hush back when I was there." No matter. Since word of Kamen's project leaked earlier this week, speculation among professional and amateur engineers has run wild, from a jet pack for commuters to a self-guided scooter to a human-powered plane to a revolutionary new form of clean energy. And not 10 or 20 or 50 years from now, but reasonably priced and ready to buy as early as next year. The secret of Ginger's existence slipped out this week when a book proposal on the project found its way around the Internet and onto the news site Inside.com. The proposal, from Hartford writer Steve Kemper, said Ginger would rival the personal computer in its impact on society. It said legendary venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins might cough up millions. It said Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos let out a trademark honking laugh when he saw the gizmo in action. All of which made the perfect ingredients for a hoax. But in Kamen's hands, Buck Rogers technology seems eminently plausible, and few in the inventing world second-guess him. "I've seen some of his inventions that just boggle the mind of any inventor," said Doug Greenlee of Westminster, Mass., who has coached students participating in Kamen's highly regarded robotics competition. "Whatever he's got up his sleeve, he's going to be very successful, because he's been very successful with everything he does." As a college kid, Kamen invented a portable insulin pump. He started his first company at age 26 and was a multimillionaire by age 31. More recently, he invented the IBOT - a wheelchair that can climb stairs and stand up on two back wheels, giving the disabled nearly the same mobility and reach as those who can walk. What's next? "I had heard through the grapevine that there was some sort of flying machine," said Eric Knight, an inventor who lives in Farmington. "I'm intrigued. He's certainly got something up his sleeve." Other inventors/sleuths, divining clues from Kemper's book proposal, also lean toward some kind of novel vehicle - perhaps a small, human-powered car or a jet pack that would allow people to fly over short distances and kiss I-84 goodbye. Garrie Hill, a member of the Human Powered Vehicle Association, said flight is unlikely because of the immense complexity and danger of moving people through the air, especially when there's even a slight breeze. But a breakthrough personal vehicle that travels on the ground might be feasible, he said. On Internet news groups, people have posted messages dissecting the Kemper proposal line by line. Ginger, Kemper wrote, is "an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities." A new form of mass transportation? Some type of waste management? Ginger fits in a couple of duffel bags. Too small for mass transit. A scooter? A tiny car? And wasn't there an episode of Gilligan's Island where Ginger is about to escape in a jet pack? Given Kamen's work with the IBOT wheelchair, some speculated that the invention might be a new kind of robot. Joseph Engelberger, who founded HelpMate Robotics in Danbury, said much progress is being made in robotics, and public interest in an affordable, capable device would be high. "The iron is hot to do something, particularly in avant-garde robotics," he said. "But whether Dean Kamen is doing that, I don't know." Eugene Mallove, the editor-in-chief of Infinite Energy Magazine, doesn't know either. But he's willing to take a crack at it, too, putting his money on either some type of "unidirectional propulsion scheme," or a new type of energy source. The new propulsion scheme would allow objects to move without thrust or pressure against another surface - a no-no under Newton's Third Law of Physics. Despite that infraction, if it works, Kamen would have a device that could propel an empty canoe across a still pool - or perhaps put cars on the road that get 1,000 miles to the gallon. Mallove's other bet is a new energy source that also scoffs at physics textbooks. "Cold fusion is in that category," Mallove says, "but I don't believe he's working in that area." Given Bezos' reported reaction to the contraption, Mallove is convinced that whatever Kamen has, it's ingeniously simple. "Something that was so simple that you'd slap your head and say, 'How can it be that we never thought of it before?'" Mallove doubts that the invention will be secret for long. "How can they keep this until 2002? They aren't going to be able to." Perhaps not, with the glare of attention focused on Ginger. "It's like trying to find out what's happening inside Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory," said Scott Kirsner, who wrote a story on Kamen last September for Wired magazine. But hard facts are as rare as a golden ticket. Burl Amsbury, a former engineer at DEKA, said the core technology behind Ginger has been around five or ten years, but that no other company was working on a similar project. And, uh, what might that project be? "I know all about it," Amsbury says matter-of-factly. "But I'm not going to say what it is." So fellow inventors will keep poking around for clues and wondering if Ginger will live up to Kamen's astounding track record of inventions. "He's a very talented fellow," said Knight, the Farmington inventor. "Whatever he's got going, it's going to be incredible. "Unless it's all just a huge hoax." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 06:29:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA18223; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:28:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:28:11 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010111082741.00948510 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:28:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"MowXD.0.fS4.xBSNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:51 PM 1/10/01 -1000, you wrote: >Well, I just watched "Chicken Run". I just watched Good Morning America.... They are showing something that looks like a scooter..... with only one wheel Saying the energy source is something like cold fusion Called out a patent number (I am not sure I copied correctly) 075-9091 Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 06:33:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20051; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:30:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:30:58 -0800 Message-ID: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C87 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> From: "Tz'Akh" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: IT (and What is IT) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:23:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C07BDA.019D89C4" Resent-Message-ID: <"Lx3Zg1.0.8v4.YESNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C07BDA.019D89C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" the people at Millenium Jet inc. have been hyping that for a while now. it's still just projections and assumptions. When i see a picture of even a prototype in flight, then i'll start paying more attention to them. in other news..... > I just watched Good Morning America.... > > They are showing something that looks like a scooter..... > with only one wheel > > Saying the energy source is something like cold fusion > Called out a patent number (I am not sure I copied correctly) > 075-9091 > Charlie Ford what was the date and time of the broadcast, and by which station? -Zak -----Original Message----- From: Nick Palmer [mailto:nick7 itl.net] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 5:19 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: IT Is this another version of IT? http://explorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm ------_=_NextPart_001_01C07BDA.019D89C4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
the=20 people at Millenium Jet inc. have been hyping that for a while = now.  it's=20 still just projections and assumptions.  When i see a picture of = even a=20 prototype in flight, then i'll start paying more attention to=20 them.
 
 
in=20 other news.....
 
> I just watched = Good Morning=20 America....
>
> They are showing = something that=20 looks like a scooter.....
> with only one = wheel
>
> Saying the energy = source is=20 something like cold fusion
> Called out a = patent number (I am=20 not sure I copied correctly)
> = 075-9091
> Charlie = Ford
 
 
what=20 was the date and time of the broadcast, and by which=20 station?
 
 
 
-Zak
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Palmer=20 [mailto:nick7 itl.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 = 5:19=20 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject:=20 IT

Is this another version of = IT?

 
 
http://ex= plorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm
------_=_NextPart_001_01C07BDA.019D89C4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 06:41:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA24771; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:39:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:39:24 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010111083836.00950a30 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:39:17 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010111082741.00948510 postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Krucq1.0.w26.SMSNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA010111What_is_IT.html At 08:28 AM 1/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >At 09:51 PM 1/10/01 -1000, you wrote: >>Well, I just watched "Chicken Run". > > >I just watched Good Morning America.... > >They are showing something that looks like a scooter..... with only one >wheel > >Saying the energy source is something like cold fusion > Called out a patent number (I am not sure I copied correctly) >075-9091 >Charlie Ford > >KC5-OWZ >cjford1 yahoo.com >cjford1 swbell.net > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:04:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA02525; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:57:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:57:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:57:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Zapping a floater In-Reply-To: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C87 hersilia.dvdempire.lan> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Qf8No3.0.Kd.gdSNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Tz'Akh wrote: > the people at Millenium Jet inc. have been hyping that for a while now. > it's still just projections and assumptions. When i see a picture of even a > prototype in flight, then i'll start paying more attention to them. The problem with 'antigravity backpacks' is well known: humans are safe from power lines only because they cannot reach them. A determined suicidal maniac was captured on video as he first tried to touch a low voltage line (which had been disconnected), but then climbed up to touch a 10KV line. Here it is: Dr. Megavolt's 'Safety warning' page: http://www.drmegavolt.com/underpages/warning.asp http://www.drmegavolt.com/underpages/gallery/pcp_on_fire1.asp (not for the squeamish!) Birds are relatively safe from this because of their small size. Outdoor power transmission equipment is designed to maintain a certain separation so that small animals climbing on it don't produce short circuits. If the power companies suddenly have to redesign their stuff for 6-foot animals, it will take a while, and in the mean time, the 'animals' will be producing explosive short circuits with carbonization and steam explosions within body tissues. Ewww. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:32:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15354; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:27:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:27:53 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111095910.026660c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:02:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IT In-Reply-To: <00f001c07bb7$ea143b80$5e8e209a nikspentium> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"-tu9r3.0.jl3.u3TNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nick Palmer wrote: >Is this another version of IT? > >http://explorezone.com/archives/99_09/24_solotrek.htm This web site describes a backpack helicopter gadget which consumes gasoline. I expect it would be polluting, noisy and dangerous, which can only be used by experts in special situations. It does not fit the profile described in the announcements. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 07:33:17 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA15384; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:28:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:28:01 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111100255.02668a38 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:27:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? - another Edisonian screw up? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010111082741.00948510 postoffice.swbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"nZ4DZ1.0.nl3.u3TNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: >They are showing something that looks like a scooter..... with only one >wheel > >Saying the energy source is something like cold fusion > Called out a patent number (I am not sure I copied correctly) >075-9091 This makes no sense -- but it may be true anyway. If you have a source of energy like cold fusion, you do not need to invent a special vehicle to go along with it. You can earn $1 trillion by selling the energy source as is. Work on the vehicle will only distract you from the main invention, and delay it for many years unnecessarily. This weird combination of unrelated machines sounds like a typical idea from a certain class of inventors, notably Edison. After he invented the record player, he spent in an inordinate amount of time working on machinery to spin the record (which was a cylinder in the early models, not a disk). Instead of concentrating on improving sound fidelity, or making the machine easier to use, he worked on many improbable methods to spin the turntable. He started with battery driven electric motors, which cost a fortune, quickly ran down, and drove the record player at different speeds depending on the charge level. Batteries could not be recharged in those days because houses did not have domestic electric service. After battery driven record players flopped, Edison went on to develop water driven motors. The record player was attached to a hose from the kitchen sink. Water under pressure ran through the machine, drove the turntable, and then splashed out into the sink and down the drain. The primary use of record player is at that stage was to record your own voice or music, not to play back commercially manufactured records. The water driven record player was useless because the flowing water made a racket and drowned out the sounds people intended to record. Also, it was unreliable because of different water pressures, blockages in the hoses, leaks and so on, and very expensive. These inventions were total waste of time. They delayed the introduction of commercially successful record players for 20 years. Players could easily be driven at a constant speed by windup, spring loaded motors, which have been developed long ago for clocks and other mechanical devices. After Edison finally stopped fooling around with ridiculous power supplies, and put the invention aside, other people quickly applied spring loaded motors to record players. This remained the standard until the 1920s with the introduction of electrically amplified music, and some were still working in the 1950s. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:00:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27198; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:53 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111075642.03af0e20 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:59:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-Reply-To: <20010111083144.17111.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"5tjzA3.0.ue6.5VTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:31 AM 1/11/01 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >I will do the calculation for any length, L. I will simplify the >problem by assuming that the pipe wall is infinitely rigid.... >The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just the >dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a only a >uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get the >pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): > > dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) very clear, Michael. Thank you. Am I interpreting the above result correctly....that the pressure rise is a constant value...not higher at the valve end of the pipe as one might naively expect? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:02:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27445; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:57:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:57:31 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111093520.03878150 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:37:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"IYOwh3.0.fi6.gVTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:32 PM 1/10/01 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >>THIS is now my most hopeful direction in which to look for possible new >>space drives. Problem is, exactly where do we start looking? We don't >>know HOW to interact with the rest of the universe...do we? > >There's the Woodward experiment. Might be a way to isolate that more >clearly than experiments done so far. Woodward believes the effect he >thinks he sees is a Machian push-the-universe effect. That's what I understood, too. I believe Woodward is making another experimental push right now. Let's look forward to his results. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:02:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27168; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:49:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Thought Experiment - Field Propulsion In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"QjacS.0.Me6.3VTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:32 PM 1/10/01 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >>THIS is now my most hopeful direction in which to look for possible new >>space drives. Problem is, exactly where do we start looking? We don't >>know HOW to interact with the rest of the universe...do we? > >There's the Woodward experiment. Might be a way to isolate that more >clearly than experiments done so far. Woodward believes the effect he >thinks he sees is a Machian push-the-universe effect. That's what I understood, too. I believe Woodward is making another experimental push right now. Let's look forward to his results. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:06:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA27092; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:56:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5DD8E0.77FE4FC bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:01:36 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? References: <4.2.0.58.20010111082741.00948510 postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1Vdvg3.0.Ed6.uUTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: > > At 09:51 PM 1/10/01 -1000, you wrote: > >Well, I just watched "Chicken Run". > > I just watched Good Morning America.... > > They are showing something that looks like a scooter..... with only one wheel > > Saying the energy source is something like cold fusion > Called out a patent number (I am not sure I copied correctly) > 075-9091 Possbily you mean: http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=US05971091__ There is provided, in a preferred embodiment, a transportation vehicle for transporting an individual over ground having a surface that may be irregular. This embodiment has a support for supporting the subject. A ground-contacting module, movably attached to the support, serves to suspend the subject in the support over the surface. The orientation of the ground-contacting module defines fore-aft and lateral planes intersecting one another at a vertical. The support and the ground-contacting module are components of an assembly. A motorized drive, mounted to the assembly and coupled to the ground-contacting module, causes locomotion of the assembly and the subject therewith over the surface. Finally, the embodiment has a control loop, in which the motorized drive is included, for dynamically enhancing stability in the fore-aft plane by operation of the motorized drive in connection with the ground-contacting module. The ground contacting module may be realized as a pair of ground-contacting members, laterally disposed with respect to one another. The ground-contacting members may be wheels. Alternatively, each ground-contacting member may include a duster of wheels. In another embodiment, each ground-contacting member includes a pair of axially adjacent and rotatably mounted arcuate element pairs. Related methods are also provided. Some really bizarre Individual Transportation vehicles from Kamen, et.al. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:08:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30621; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:04:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:04:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5DDB3A.C96AB774 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:11:38 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? References: <4.2.0.58.20010111082741.00948510 postoffice.swbell.net> <3A5DD8E0.77FE4FC@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OZe91.0.MU7.IcTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Some really bizarre Individual Transportation vehicles from > Kamen, et.al. Of course, these are the basis for the IBOT. To see the product: http://www.dynopower.freeserve.co.uk/homepages/newchair.htm Kamen was heavily involved in the use of gyroscopes in this creation. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:09:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32079; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:07:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:07:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111100201.038b1ec0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:05:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" From: Scott Little Subject: RE: Tapping ZPE In-Reply-To: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C77 hersilia.dvdempire. lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"u3ZW5.0.4r7.qeTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:05 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Tz'Akh wrote: >btw: has anyone else on-list here worked with sonoluminescence? We've observed the phenomenon here...both single-bubble and multi-bubble. I even tried doing some calorimetry on a multi-bubble vessel and didn't see any o-u....but then the fraction of total input energy going into light production was probably vanishingly small anyway so the sonoluminescence itself could have be way o-u and it still wouldn't have made the whole experiment even 1% o-u...way below my detection limit of a few percent. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:22:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07182; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:20:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:20:26 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111100544.038b2ae0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:16:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scott's C F replications In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"H6nmZ1.0.4m1.9rTNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:20 PM 1/10/01 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >This post reminds me of a question that has been in my mind, how many >replications of C F have you attempted? Have any worked? I'm disappointed >that you were unable to replicate Piantelli. I guess we've tried about 15 different CF experiments of one form or another, usually tending towards the forms that looked most practical and/or showed the greatest apparent excess heat. Our goal all along has been to develop a practical energy source from CF so we were always quick to jump on the latest "CF success story". Among the things we've tried are: The original experiment the Patterson beads Evan Ragland's triode cell a Pd tube from a hydrogen generator (in D2O) various Pd-D2O cells made by Dennis Letts Piantelli's Ni rod in H2 gas Ni wires in H2 gas at elevated temperatures gas-loaded Pd metal at elevated temp and pressure various underwater sparking electrolysis experiments Dr. Case's experiment calorimetric testing of a hydrogen purifier (Pd membrane) some versions of Randall Mills experiments spark discharges to a Pd target in D2 atmosphere etc. As always, our failure in these experiments cannot be taken as proof that they do not work. We could easily have been doing something wrong in each and every one. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 08:40:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA12850; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:34:45 -0800 Message-Id: <200101111634.LAA29471 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: [FG]: What is IT? Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:30:55 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"rMdWL3.0.i83.a2UNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding the Good Morning America segment: A person on our staff saw the program and described it this way. It was an interview by Charles Gibson of the noted Silicon Valley mogul Robert Metcalfe (of 3Com corp) specifically about "IT". Metcalfe was asked whether he could describe it and he begged off due to his secrecy agreement. BUT, he was asked "on a scale of one to ten" or some such phrase, what would be the significance of this development? His response was something like this: "somewhere between the internet and cold fusion" !!!! Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 09:31:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA01486; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:26:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:26:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5DEE66.135367DA bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:33:26 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Advanced Propulsion Technologies Workshop Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oFx-s1.0.4N.ooUNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. Puthoff is presenting a paper next Sunday, Jan 21st, at the referenced workshop in Sussex. I couldn't find the paper on Earthtech.org; but, it is available at: http://stardrive.org/Jack/puthoff1.pdf Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 09:58:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14465; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:54:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:54:50 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5DF520.65FE1956 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:02:08 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ssshhh, IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XxA0K2.0.sX3.gDVNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/itmystery010111.html has a picture of the one wheeled scooter. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 10:43:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA32181; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:35:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:35:51 -0800 Message-ID: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C8B hersilia.dvdempire.lan> From: "Tz'Akh" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Tapping ZPE Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:27:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"tnnw_3.0.ks7.7qVNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: unless i'm grossly misunderstanding the process (dont discount that option ;) the bubble has a 'maximum capacity' state where it is under the least pressure. as i understood it, everytime it collapses/compresses down to it's maximum density and gives off light, a bit of the air is 'lost' (converted to energy) in being given off as light. i seem to remember this beign confirms by analysis of the spectrums of light given off by sonoluminescing bubble. every burst of light has a slightly different spetrum of emission because with each burst there's less and less air in the bubble to re-expand and re-compress. as the bubble gives off light and then re-expands (to recollapse, etc) it continues to 'lose air' that is given off as light. eventually it reaches a point where it can no longer expand (for lack of any air to expand?) - and at this point it reexpands and begins to give off light again from it fullest point, and the cycle starts all over again. as i understand, those 'peak' points where the bubble is at it's maximum capacity have been foudn to be identical based upon the light emission of the bubble. unfortunately, i don't have the Sl white papers on hand that i got most of this info from. before i go digging, though, i should first ask if anyone knows of this information. is this accepted on SL, or do i have my facts wrong? -Zak > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Little [mailto:little earthtech.org] > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 11:05 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com; 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' > Subject: RE: Tapping ZPE > > > At 04:05 PM 1/10/01 -0500, Tz'Akh wrote: > > >btw: has anyone else on-list here worked with sonoluminescence? > We've observed the phenomenon here...both single-bubble and > multi-bubble. I even tried doing some calorimetry on a multi-bubble > vessel and didn't see any o-u....but then the fraction of total input > energy going into light production was probably vanishingly > small anyway so > the sonoluminescence itself could have be way o-u and it > still wouldn't > have made the whole experiment even 1% o-u...way below my > detection limit > of a few percent. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 11:09:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05693; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:50:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:50:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111123922.038d2190 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:48:23 -0600 To: hydrino egroups.com From: Scott Little Subject: HSG: HiFi BLP replication Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <93js6p+kbqn eGroups.com> References: <93dj82+85ag eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Od_R8.0.oO1.a1WNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:51 AM 1/11/01 +0000, Piero Andreuccetti wrote on the hydrino egroup: >What's about Scott Little Mills' experience replication? I'm still plugging away at it. Run 3 started yesterday with a fresh Ni cathode and fresh K2CO3 electrolyte. Thermal equilibrium is still a day or two away but, meanwhile, I am busy getting my residual gas analyzer (i.e. mass spectrometer) calibrated so I can analyze the gases coming out of the cell. Initial indications from the RGA are that there is no detectable CO2 in the gas stream. I have more-or-less perfected the gas flowrate measurement, too, and right now about 58% of the gas produced by electrolysis is escaping from the cell...i.e. the observed gas flow rate emerging from the cell is 58% of the rate expected from Faradaic considerations (i.e. 3/4 moles of gas produced for every mole of electrons thru the cell). The rest is presumably recombining inside the cell...but the gas analysis should reveal clues about that as well. In other words, if the gas exiting the cell is NOT a stoichiometric mixture of H2 and O2 we will know that some unexpected reaction is occurring in the cell. I'll be presenting a full description of the new gas flow measurement technique and the gas analysis technique soon. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 11:22:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA16282; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:13:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:13:42 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT In-Reply-To: <3A5DF520.65FE1956 bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mRr9b1.0.K-3.pNWNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/itmystery010111.html > >has a picture of the one wheeled scooter. Wow! It looks like my kind of gadget. It resembles the unimpressive electric scooter I tested. It is probably not practical for urban transportation in most U.S. cities, with the auto traffic, but I do love gadgets with wheels. The other night I was riding a bicycle, horsing around with the controls and adjusting the derailleur. I got so involved I didn't notice the sand and ice. Ended up with a badly sprained wrist. I have taken many spills, and knocked a pedestrian cold once (his fault), and wrecked several wheels, but I've never been seriously hurt before. My guess is that this invention has nothing to do with energy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 11:48:56 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28350; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:42:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:42:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:48:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Vortex Subject: Re: Address for....John Allen Please (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FVPUV.0.uw6.AoWNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please... Does anyone have a valid address for John Allen? his 'global cafe' address bounces..... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 11:57:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30493; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:47:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:47:36 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:53:33 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Address for....John Allen Please (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Zl6fO.0.JS7.NtWNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please... Does anyone have a valid address for John Allen? his 'global cafe' address bounces..... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 11:59:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30374; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:47:22 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:53:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aqXpC3.0.VQ7.AtWNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: n Dear Vo., To make a magnetic winding of water that produces a reasonable field it is necessary to use an electrolyte that is very very conductive... the greater the conductivity the less loss. Sodium chloride and water is fine... provided you are using a saturated solution, or close to saturated. From Chemistry class....saturated meats no more salt will dissolve in given volume of water at given temperature. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 12:07:05 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA03750; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:59:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:59:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:59:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"IyvRF1.0.Ww.N2XNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A scooter can't possibly be IT. A scooter couldn't make intelligent people say that it's more important than the PC and cities will be redesigned, etc. Got to be energy or flight. I posted a note on freenrg about 'ornithopters'. Not necessarily a big flapping wing thing, but something that produces thrust over a few tens or so square feet of area. That would yield good stability and the ability to buck winds. The variable geometry inherent in an ornithopter-like design gives the powerful control needed for safe takeoffs and landings in gusty conditions. Just the thing for a skilled robotics visionary to build. I know there's a gap in the performance of existing craft that such a device would fill. The Millenium Jet air scooter (dual ducted fan personal flying machine) is in the territory but doesn't cut it - fast moving noisy machinery is not the answer. Slow moving larger surfaces is - and that begs robotic or power assisted control. I've got lots of time in hang gliders and wave jumping with a sailboard, and have a sense about the performance parameters. I do love gadgets with wings. If a man had ten times normal strength, he could power a set of properly designed "wings" fast enough to fly. But power's not the problem. It's device design and geometry. Remember the Chinese "flying mattress" posts here a year or more ago? Some sort of rectangular frame with elements in it creating thrust over the whole area. That's what I'm talking about. Something that produces at least a few pounds thrust per sq. ft. over a few tens or a hundred square feet or so would be the ticket. Not conventional rotary propellors. Compact, controllable, QUIET. It HAS to be very quiet as well as hover capable. Such a lifting element could be used in devices from flying 'motorcycles' to flying car designs. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/itmystery010111.html >> >>has a picture of the one wheeled scooter. > >Wow! It looks like my kind of gadget. It resembles the unimpressive >electric scooter I tested. It is probably not practical for urban >transportation in most U.S. cities, with the auto traffic, but I do >love gadgets with wheels. The other night I was riding a bicycle, >horsing around with the controls and adjusting the derailleur. I got >so involved I didn't notice the sand and ice. Ended up with a badly >sprained wrist. I have taken many spills, and knocked a pedestrian >cold once (his fault), and wrecked several wheels, but I've never >been seriously hurt before. > >My guess is that this invention has nothing to do with energy. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 12:45:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA20468; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:34:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:34:01 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: Ssshhh, IT Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:37:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"K8Df93.0.k_4.uYXNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ah HA! I've figured out what it is. Check out this recently released image of the first prototype! http://www.geocities.com/inexob/1701.jpg K. -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick highsurf.com] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 2:59 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT A scooter can't possibly be IT. A scooter couldn't make intelligent people say that it's more important than the PC and cities will be redesigned, etc. Got to be energy or flight. I posted a note on freenrg about 'ornithopters'. Not necessarily a big flapping wing thing, but something that produces thrust over a few tens or so square feet of area. That would yield good stability and the ability to buck winds. The variable geometry inherent in an ornithopter-like design gives the powerful control needed for safe takeoffs and landings in gusty conditions. Just the thing for a skilled robotics visionary to build. I know there's a gap in the performance of existing craft that such a device would fill. The Millenium Jet air scooter (dual ducted fan personal flying machine) is in the territory but doesn't cut it - fast moving noisy machinery is not the answer. Slow moving larger surfaces is - and that begs robotic or power assisted control. I've got lots of time in hang gliders and wave jumping with a sailboard, and have a sense about the performance parameters. I do love gadgets with wings. If a man had ten times normal strength, he could power a set of properly designed "wings" fast enough to fly. But power's not the problem. It's device design and geometry. Remember the Chinese "flying mattress" posts here a year or more ago? Some sort of rectangular frame with elements in it creating thrust over the whole area. That's what I'm talking about. Something that produces at least a few pounds thrust per sq. ft. over a few tens or a hundred square feet or so would be the ticket. Not conventional rotary propellors. Compact, controllable, QUIET. It HAS to be very quiet as well as hover capable. Such a lifting element could be used in devices from flying 'motorcycles' to flying car designs. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Terry Blanton wrote: > >>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/itmystery010111.html >> >>has a picture of the one wheeled scooter. > >Wow! It looks like my kind of gadget. It resembles the unimpressive >electric scooter I tested. It is probably not practical for urban >transportation in most U.S. cities, with the auto traffic, but I do >love gadgets with wheels. The other night I was riding a bicycle, >horsing around with the controls and adjusting the derailleur. I got >so involved I didn't notice the sand and ice. Ended up with a badly >sprained wrist. I have taken many spills, and knocked a pedestrian >cold once (his fault), and wrecked several wheels, but I've never >been seriously hurt before. > >My guess is that this invention has nothing to do with energy. > >- Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 12:59:32 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29229; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:50:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:50:30 -0800 Message-Id: <200101112050.PAA22565 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Manchester Union Leader -- IT coverage Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:46:39 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA29168 Resent-Message-ID: <"uSSJx3.0.d87.LoXNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: News - January 11, 2001 NH inventor¹s latest work: Build IT and they will come By MARK HAYWARD Union Leader Staff    A mystery is afoot, and the big question is, what is IT?   A report posted on the Internet Tuesday gave clues about IT, but specifics remain unknown about Manchester inventor Dean Kamen¹s latest invention.   Those familiar with the invention say its impact will compare to that of the personal computer. It could also make Manchester¹s favorite eccentric richer than Bill Gates in five years.   Upon seeing protoypes of IT, Apple computer founder Steve Jobs said, ³If enough people see the machine, you won¹t have to convince them to architect cities around it. It¹ll just happen.²   That quote was contained in a book proposal that was disclosed yesterday on the Web site Inside.com.   The disclosure has ignited speculation in technology circles and among the media.   About 25 reporters called DEKA Research and Development Corp. yesterday looking for Kamen, who was not available, his secretary said.   The book proposal quotes Kamen as saying the core technology and its implementations will ³have a big, broad impact not only on social institutions but some billion-dollar old-line companies.²   The invention will ³probably affect our environment and the way people live worldwide. It will be an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities,² the proposal quotes Kamen as saying.   But Kamen fears that if word gets out about IT too soon, ³huge corporations² will erect obstacles or try to steal the idea by assigning engineers to play catch-up.   A source outside the company told The Union Leader that Kamen has been working on the project for years, and that it draws on his fascination with steam engines.   ³This is his lifelong pursuit,² the source said.   IT, which is code-named Ginger, is not expected to be made public until 2002.   Inside.com reported Tuesday that Harvard Business School Press paid journalist Steve Kemper $250,000 to write a book about IT, even though the invention is not known to the publisher.   Kemper assured his publisher that the invention would sweep over the world and force the restructuring of cities.   Inside.com gleaned clues about IT from Kemper¹s proposal: -- It is not a medical invention. -- Kamen assembled two models in 10 minutes, using a screwdriver and hex wrenches from components that fit into a couple of large duffel bags and some cardboard boxes. -- It is amusing. Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos let out a ³loud, honking laugh² when he first saw it. -- Bezos is quoted as saying the product is so revolutionary there will be no problem selling it. ³The question is, are people going to be allowed to use it?² -- There are two models ‹ Metro and Pro ‹ and the Metro could cost less than $2,000.   Inventions are nothing new to Kamen.   A recipient of the National Medal of Technology, Kamen dropped out of college in his 20s, but then went on to make a fortune.   He invented the first drug infusion pump, portable insulin pump and portable dialysis machine.   He founded FIRST, which encourages students to pursue engineering careers. He is also involved in Manchester Millyard development.   Kamen¹s IBOT wheelchair, which traverses stairs and outdoor terrain, is expected to hit the market later this year.   Kamen¹s preferred dress is an Army jacket and blue jeans and he often goes to work via helicopter.   Only a handful of people outside the company are familiar with IT. They include Bezos, Jobs, a few investors and Silicon Valley venture capitalist John Doerrs. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 13:34:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA10386; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:17:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:17:58 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111160019.00aa9800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:16:37 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"mznFj2.0.2Y2.6CYNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >>My guess is that this invention has nothing to do with energy. I meant it has nothing to do with energy if the scooter shown in the news article is actually IT. Whatever IT is, IT fits into a shoulder bag. It's hard to imagine a prototype energy device, flying machine or anti-gravity machine that small. (It's hard to imagine them in the first place . . . but to suppose they have already been miniaturized is a stretch.) Rick Monteverde wrote: >A scooter can't possibly be IT. A scooter couldn't make intelligent people >say that it's more important than the PC and cities will be redesigned, >etc. Got to be energy or flight. That sounds reasonable, but on the other hand people have gotten excited about nothing products in the past. Much of the dot-com boom was about stupid plans that should never have attracted a penny of investment capital. A Silicon Valley programmer tested that hypothesis early last year at a party. He made up a cock-and-bull business plan as a joke. He said he was thinking of attaching monitors to people's hands and feet to keep track of their movement while they played ice hockey. He would record the movement in a nearby computer and then transmit the data via Internet to be analyzed by sports experts remotely, to improve the players' hockey technique. He went around telling people about this plan. As a party wrapped up, engineers and venture capitalists were pressing their business cards on him, trying to cut a deal. They thought he was serious! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 14:02:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA23078; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:43:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:43:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 11:43:44 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: IT - Internet Telepresence? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"hBXEY3.0.We5.SaYNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ok, here's another "educated" (he he) guess. I saw this guess in a message somewhere, and the more I think about it and read back through the 'clues', it seems to fit better than the other ideas. Internet Telepresence. Remember that he assembled *two* devices. The thing's been in a movie before, "F/X". One device you wear, the second duplicates your movements. This *would* truly be "an alternative to products that are dirty, expensive, sometimes dangerous and often frustrating, especially for people in the cities". Take grocery shopping for instance, and the failure of WebVan. I'd love to avoid the hassle of shopping. I hate shopping. But I still want to squeeze the tomatoes, the Charmin, other shoppers, whatever. WebVan has no appeal for me. I want to *be* there, but I don't want to have to *go* there. With IT, after shopping from home or whever you are, all you or your courier has to do is stop by and pick up the paid-for merch at the pick-up place - maybe big centralized telepresence deployment and cargo pick-up hubs - there's where your city planning comes in. The stores have racks of IT remote bots ready to roll down the isles - all you do is log on! And, sorry to add this tawdry note, but it's where the big money is and it drove the first big wave of online commerce - the porn industry is gonna love it. All this is going to depend on ubiquitous (i.e wireless) wide broadband. Not here yet. But "real soon" is what "they" say. But telepresence has to be the Killer App for that kind of broadband capability. The robotic nature of the devices is right on the money for this inventor. A flying machine would be cool, but a telepresence package is something that would tickle the tootsies of the likes of Bezos, Jobs, and the Silicon Valley elite and VCs. Otherwise, wouldn't he have gone to aviation people instead of computer and net technos? There's an intermediate level version that could be built now for cheap, and I've wondered why it hasn't been tried in stores and malls. Instead of complicated robots, you use a plentiful, disposable resource - mall rats. Teenagers. A store has virtual shoppers rigged with those 4.5 gigahertz wireless cameras and a protable phone. You log onto the server at the store that processes & compresses the video, streaming it to you. You can direct the shopper where you want via voice line, and see the stuff on the cam. Too simple, huh? - and the high-end pornos have already been using a similar kind of system for some time now. Like that guy whatsisname, in Seattle, wanted his porn company to be listed on the market and everything, you know who I mean. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 14:39:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA16988; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:31:20 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:31:08 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: IT - Internet Telepresence? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"vM7hk2.0.I94.tGZNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >Ok, here's another "educated" (he he) guess. I saw this guess in a message >somewhere, and the more I think about it and read back through the >'clues', it seems to fit better than the other ideas. Naa . . . Kamen is a hardware guy, not software. Internet telepresence is a straight-forward, incremental improvement to present-day techniques. Nothing to get worked up about. UNLESS, it is the kind of telepresence they tested the other day with an owl monkey, where they plugged the wires directly into the brain tissue to give the monkey a nervous system with 600-mile-long virtual arms. That would be something! I envision a bright future for this technique after they learn to extend the reach of other organs for other purposes. However, I would not be the first to sign up for it. Nor do I ever plan to undergo "painless laser eye surgery" which works "almost all the time," when eyeglasses work 100% of the time, and if they make a mistake cutting the lens, they can always do it again. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:05:47 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26477; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:58:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:57:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: off topic: brainhurt! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CmN_C1.0.YT6.7YaNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wow! Wow! A personal hero, Seattle cartoon artist Jim Woodring, now has an animation on his website. It's a little wordless story that takes about one minute to play. The file mentions "Golive" and ".swf" links, so I don't know which browsers might not be able to view it. Whim Grinder http://www.jimwoodring.com/funstuff/whimgrinder.html It's a story from a really twisted little alternate universe. I remember that it's one of the places where little kids go when they are dreaming. (Sometimes they wake up screaming.) If it turns out that you enjoy this sort of cracked-brained detrius, explore the main site and buy all of his comics: http://www.jimwoodring.com ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:06:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23520; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:51:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:51:34 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111173413.038779d0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:49:36 -0600 To: hydrino egroups.com From: Scott Little Subject: HiFi BLP replication - Run 3 preview Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111123922.038d2190 earthtech.org> References: <93js6p+kbqn eGroups.com> <93dj82+85ag eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"LPPHS.0.Ml5.5SaNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've posted a 100 kb picture of the wall-full of apparatus that is involved in Run 3 at: http://earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/rgacelllo.jpg In the foreground is the gas analysis system. The actual RGA is the gray box connected directly to the 2.75" Conflat vacuum piping. It's data is displayed on the monitor immediately behind it. Just above the RGA is the sample gas chamber (made of a 2.75" Conflat nipple), which has a MKS Baratron pressure sensor sticking out of its back end plate. A small line leads down from the sample chamber to the RGA's piping system and a very fine needle valve allows me to meter the sample gas into the RGA with great control. Not visible is the rest of our vacuum system (Balzers turbo and mechanical backing pump). In the background on the right, you can see the Mills experiment and there is a long 1/4" OD SS tube leading from the active cell over to the gas analysis system. The RGA in this configuration is exquisitely sensitive. Only 0.1 standard cc's of gas from the cell is required to feed the RGA at a healthy rate for an hour or so! Now all I've got to do is make sure the gas samples are not contaminated. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:15:44 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA31401; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:07:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:07:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:07:12 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: VortexB on escribe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"B9FfJ1.0.Zg7.pgaNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Keith Nagel wrote: > By the way, I'm curious why B isn't archived on escribe. It started out as a flamewars-only zone with no archive at all. Escribe is now turned on. See http://www.escribe.com/science/vortexB/ ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:35:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA08172; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:28:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:28:14 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:28:06 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Address for....John Allen Please (fwd) Message-ID: <20010112002806.C82355 tao.org.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from herman@antioch-college.edu on Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:53:33PM -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZTsLN.0.Y_1.T-aNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:53:33PM -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > Please... > > Does anyone have a valid address for John Allen? > > his 'global cafe' address bounces..... I've not heard hide nor hair of him for well over a year! (I met him in '99 in London). Joe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:43:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA09987; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:33:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:33:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-244.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.244] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5DE1C6.A3A914BC ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:39:34 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"omwYe2.0.uR2.W3bNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I always thought it was indeed "Tow the line" as in pulling, And that's how I meant it, However I am obviously mistaken, it's Toe the line. In the end both mean the same thing, I was imagining a big ship with "Establishment" written on it, and Ph.D's help propel the establishment cause. However I guess it means being very careful not to go over the line the establishment draws. I really don't care, I have presented 4 things to lists recently. None of them have had a response worth posting them for. (A serious interested response) How to create energy with magnets and steel (which I am more convinced of the more I think about it) It can be proven with quickfield assuming it gives an idea of the force, failing that if the problem was calculated it would show I was right. No one willing to do anything other than try and quickly dismiss it, if that fails they just ignore it. I presented a way to create motion without any reaction, I have proven it. Scott Little is so blinded by his belief that even though he says it would work, he thinks it's efficiency would that of a photon rocket, not because he can show it, but because he says it can't be any higher. When any reasonable person would see it's efficiency could be very high indeed! (probably a few billion times more efficient than a photon rocket) This can also be easily calculated, I actually started to type an email asking that he or someone do so, but I realized I was wasting my time I have shown that energy can be created using moving material and time delay, I asked that someone prove me wrong with calculations, I did present some rather good arguments, and the idea has been tested with positive results. And no one has been able to prove me wrong. And if you take the arguments to the extremes it must work as you end up with a material that has almost no kinetic energy, high energy in a small amount of compression and a speed of sound not much greater than in water. (It must compress more than it's kinetic energy can allow for) And on another list they were saying how precession can only be mathematically understood and there is no understanding in science of how this force is created.: >But the spinning gyroscope precesses and does not have to be restrained >from falling (I admit that the biggest problem in gyroscope theory is to >explain this behaviour non-mathematically. I do not think that it can be done). I had heard this before several times and never heard anyone explain it So I explained to them how the force comes about. They understood and agreed that I was right, yet they just didn't care if I had solved one of the mysteries of science, I asked if I should write it up and present it to someone who might get it out there, no reply. I have broken conservation of energy twice, conservation of momentum once, and explained a mystery of science. I can also break the speed of light, not that anyone cares. Yet the only enduring subject is if I should have used an E where I put a W! It doesn't sound like anyone cares! Stop acting like "Defenders of the Faith" and more like real scientists! It's not a Religion! It does not rely on closeminded blocking of anything that disagrees with it! I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall! John, Please note this pissed of disenfranchised reply is not to you but to much of the list, I respect you greatly. Ps. I've re-read this a few times hoping that there is no spelling error, or confused sentence. It' sad that I have to care more about grammar that anything else because any errors might overshadow what I say. And everyone know that a wrong metaphor and spelling mistake is a clear sign the person is wrong on everything! John Schnurer wrote: > Tow the line? > > Do you mean pull on it? > > On Sun, 7 Jan 2001, John Berry wrote: > > > >On the other hand, just because someone has a Ph.D. doesn't mean that >the person has not > > studied a chunk of the universe fairly deeply. > > > > Having a Ph.D means the person went and learnt what is already known and got lots of what > > the establishment teaches. Most people don't break out of their "Educational Baggage". > > They don't explore where they have been told not to, They "Tow the line" > > > > That is a sweeping generalization of course, that is not true of all, just most. > > > > >Nor does it mean that the person has stopped learning more about the >universe since > > acquiring the Ph.D. "Laws" of physics are science's >tentative summary statements about > > how some aspects of the universe >appear to work. > > > > True, that's exactly what they are, And no more. However that is not the view of most > > Ph.D's. Even if they do tell you so they have not really taken it onboard as they refuse > > to sufficiently study these things, their Bias is too strong. > > To find these "Secrets" you had better not go in believing you will probably fail as that > > is what you are virtually guaranteed to do. > > > > > > >"Laws" is a common, but poor word. "Theories" is better. The goal is >agreement with the > > universe, whether one has a Ph.D. or not. The history >of science is littered by theories > > killed by data. Theories change if new >data doesn't fit in > > > > True, But they use the word "Laws" because they have no reasonable belief that they are > > wrong. Just ask 5 Ph.D's if it is a reasonable possibility, Highly unlikely or Totally > > impossible. I think you will find most will pick the last two. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:49:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13740; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:44:31 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:46:24 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"geNZH.0.bM3.kDbNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Try Mercury(Hg). It will work fine. Hank On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > n > > Dear Vo., > > > To make a magnetic winding of water that produces a reasonable > field it is necessary to use an electrolyte that is very very > conductive... the greater the conductivity the less loss. > > Sodium chloride and water is fine... provided you are using a > saturated solution, or close to saturated. > > From Chemistry class....saturated meats no more salt will dissolve > in given volume of water at given temperature. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 17:16:00 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA25796; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:10:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:10:20 -0800 Message-ID: <017501c07c34$e8ffdd80$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> From: "Scott Stephens" To: Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:13:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Resent-Message-ID: <"Nwt2U1.0.wI6.xbbNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Shadow Things and The Whispers say that 'IT' is a unicycle with an internal flywheel, such that IT has gyroscopic stability. With its shock absorber and control system, IT does not require great difficulty to master. Scott **************************************************************************** ******* Freedom is pursuing your own carrot, not running from somebody's stick Does society make you enthusiastic, or fearful? The mob rules only what its members achieve. **************************************************************************** ******* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 18:34:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22656; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:25:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:25:11 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:24:32 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010111135941.00af1240@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010111160019.00aa9800@pop.mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111160019.00aa9800 pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA22601 Resent-Message-ID: <"hedOa.0.rX5.6icNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:16:37 -0500: [snip] >Whatever IT is, IT fits into a shoulder bag. It's hard to imagine a >prototype energy device, flying machine or anti-gravity machine that small. >(It's hard to imagine them in the first place . . . but to suppose they >have already been miniaturized is a stretch.) [snip] What happened to the cardboard boxes? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 18:34:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA22480; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:24:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:24:39 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:24:30 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: IT - Internet Telepresence? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"5IeWb3.0.5V5.dhcNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >Naa . . . Kamen is a hardware guy, not software. Internet >telepresence is a straight-forward, incremental improvement >to present-day techniques. Nothing to get worked up about. I agree with most of that, essentially. But - * IT *is* hardware - and the software it runs on. But you have to have demontrable hardware first. * Yes it's basically straightforward - they said the basic tech has been around for years (another clue). * Nothing to get worked up about...hmmm. But having a truly functional and affordable model actually selling and deployed all over the place so it has a net effect on society, then YES I think that IS something to get VERY excited about. Telecommuting becomes *really* real. And thinking about Bezos - I've even thought about how much better Amazon would be if you could browse the stacks. Wouldn't that be great? I hate buying books without flipping through the pages and the TOC. I get a good feel for whether I really need or want a book based on that. I seldom buy books online - I go to Borders or B&N becuase I can browse there. I even told my girlfriend about this idea months ago, a telepresence outfitted Amazon. I thought it was a pretty cool idea. Her eyes glazed over, but I bet Bezos would have laughed his "honking laugh" with excitement at having that possibility demonstrated right in front of him. I bet that's even what they did - having Ginger flipping the pages of a book would knock the socks off the guy who got rich by 'inventing' the online bookstore. I'm aware of NO such commercial device at present - and there should be one, don't you think? Where is it? Not even a little cheapski semi-toy fixed robot arm that would work over the net. They have those toys at Radio Shack but do they work over TCP/IP? Think of all the manual tasks in an "modern" office that you have to have someone physically present to handle. Paper handling of all sorts - filing, carrying to another office, etc. Slapping pages on a scanner or fax. Loading paper in your printer. Packing and mailing stuff. Banging the side of the balky printer or jiggling the wire in the back if it doesn't work. I do troubleshooting on Macs. I use Timbuktu whenever I can, because it's like going onsite as long as all I have to do is work onscreen. What an advance a *physical* extension of Timbuktu would be! I could make all kinds of money installing cards and plugging things in, sitting safe at home in my jammies instead of risking my life out there on the road. I drove across the island twice recently on different jobs to find someone had a cable in the wrong hole. In both cases when I asked before on the phone they said they hadn't changed anything with the cables. Are you kidding? Sign me up ASAP! It's not just the money, it's my *life* I'd be saving. I could open cans and feed the cat while I'm on vacation in Australia. Water the lawn, get the paper and mail. Think about this a bit. It's huge and truly revolutionary if it becomes a practical, user friendly, strap it on and go gizmo. Not good if it's a techie, hard to configure, gotta be able to program in C++ for it to barely work. It's going to have to be like any idiot can strap it on, fire it up, point at their destination and they're there. That's what a genius robotics inventor would do. The robot for the rest of us. Hire the necessary software geeks to make it work. Build a pretty hardware package that's preactical. It would likely have its own patentable software and protocol that it runs on. A whole package. Potentially/eventually as society-changing as the PC or internet? I think so. Oh, and keep it secret until the broadband circuits are common enough to make it happen at the wireless consumer level. Otherwise, it's just another gee-whiz geek gizmo that's out before its time, like the VR craze that went defunct before it ever even really happened. Timing the market's important. There's no market now, but you know that this sort of thing is inevitable. It takes movers and shakers to make stuff happen. Things like this don't just sprout out of the ground, someone genius and a pack of visionaries have to get behind it in a big way. My guess is that IT is Internet Telepresence, and that's my final answer. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 21:48:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA07521; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:42:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:42:39 -0800 Message-ID: <20010112050517.162.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:05:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0Wg1d1.0.Mr1.EbfNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > At 12:31 AM 1/11/01 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: > > >I will do the calculation for any length, L. I will simplify the > >problem by assuming that the pipe wall is infinitely rigid.... > > >>The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just >the >>dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a >only a >>uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get >the pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): >> >> dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) > > very clear, Michael. Thank you. Am I interpreting the above > result > correctly....that the pressure rise is a constant value...not > higher at the > valve end of the pipe as one might naively expect? That is correct, as long as there is no friction or other dissipation. The pipe walls keep the wave from spreading laterally, so there is no inverse r squared. ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 21:53:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA08973; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:46:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:46:15 -0800 Message-ID: <010601c07c62$f6f0f680$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: relwchart.htm Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:43:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C07C1F.DDB60D60"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"HfHfz2.0.7C2.defNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C07C1F.DDB60D60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0002_01C07C1F.DDB60D60" ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C07C1F.DDB60D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Name:_Jed Rothwell__________________________________ Organizational Chart=20 Planet Name Relative gravity of Planet Volume of brick Mass of = brick Density of brick=20 Mercury 0.38 1 1 1=20 Venus 0.91 1 1 1=20 Earth 1 1 1 1=20 Mars 0.38 1 1 1=20 Jupiter 2.34 1 1 1=20 Saturn 1.06 1 1 1=20 Uranus 0.92 1 1 1=20 Neptune 1.19 1 1 1=20 Pluto 0.06 1 1 1=20 Write an explanation discussing HOW and WHY the relative gravity of each = planet affects the density of the brick, using mathematical examples to = prove your points. _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________= _________________________________ Return to Space Math II ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C07C1F.DDB60D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

Name:_Jed   =20 Rothwell__________________________________

Organizational = Chart=20

Planet = Name Relative = gravity of=20 Planet Volume of=20 brick Mass of = brick Density of brick
Mercury 0.38 = 1 1 1
Venus 0.91 = 1 1 1
Earth 1 1 1 1
Mars 0.38 1 1 1
Jupiter 2.34 1 1 1
Saturn 1.06 1 1 1
Uranus 0.92 1 1 1
Neptune 1.19 1 1 1
Pluto 0.06 1 1 1

Write an explanation discussing = HOW and WHY=20 the relative gravity of each planet affects the density of the brick, = using=20 mathematical examples to prove your=20 points.

___________________________________________________= _______________________________________________________

__________= _________________________________________________________________________= _______________________

__________________________________________= ________________________________________________________________

_= _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________

_________________________________= _________________________________________________________________________=

_________________________________________________________________= _________________________________________

________________________= _________________________________________________________________________= _________

________________________________________________________= __________________________________________________


Return to Space = Math=20 II

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Water Transformer (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"zTkmF.0.yf3.sqfNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:53 PM 1/11/1, John Schnurer wrote: >n > > Dear Vo., > > > To make a magnetic winding of water that produces a reasonable >field it is necessary to use an electrolyte that is very very >conductive... the greater the conductivity the less loss. > > Sodium chloride and water is fine... provided you are using a >saturated solution, or close to saturated. Sodium chloride solution has a low conductance, about a million times less than that of iron. Conductance of strong electrolytes (like NaCl or KCl) do not vary a lot with concentration and in fact INCREASE conductivity upon DILUTION at high concentrations, unlike the weak electrolytes, like acetic acid, which has a low conductance that increases with increased concentration. > > From Chemistry class....saturated meats no more salt will dissolve >in given volume of water at given temperature. Dissolving more salt does not help much if you have a good concentration already, and may even hinder. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 22:24:13 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21310; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:18:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:18:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 21:26:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias Resent-Message-ID: <"e8e8D2.0.uC5.W6gNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:39 AM 1/12/1, John Berry wrote: [snip] >I really don't care, I have presented 4 things to lists recently. >None of them have had a response worth posting them for. (A serious >interested response) You must be joking! What do you consider a "serious" response? It seems to me that it is YOU who, by refusing to strive to understand even high school freshman math, that is not serious. Without basic math, how can you even have a serious discussion? I think that Michael Shaffer's analysis was serious, thorough, and to the point. If you are completely unable to understand anything of what is being said to you, how can you expect to be serious yourself? I would suggest two alternative ways you could do something serious, since theory appears to be beyond your means. One is to focus on experiments, and the other is to focus on invention. In the first case you simply do a good job of obtaining the data, however it comes out, and that can be a lot of fun and comparatively cheap and yet serious all at once. The other alternative is to focus on inventing and then patenting and commercial development. To go that route, unless you are a huckster, you typically need to develop a demonstorable device before you can proceed with commercial development. It is very very rare that anyone obtains funding for an "idea." I have to wonder what you mean by "serious?" Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 22:26:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA23151; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:22:47 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:25:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20010111083144.17111.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"7JNdS.0.Vf5.tAgNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Michael Schaffer [mailto:schaffermj yahoo.com] >I will do the calculation for any length, L. I will simplify the >problem by assuming that the pipe wall is infinitely rigid. This lets >me do a one dimensional calculation instead of a 2D one, and it frees >us from the complexities of dispersive waves. The pipe diameter has >no effect and need not be specified. Wouldn't the pipe diameter determine the impedence of the "water transmission line"? The water pressure in this case being the "voltage" and the flow of water being the current? I remember reading a clever little book a few years back about waterhammer; I think Dover press still publishes it. I thought at the time that a collection of glass pipes and pumps would make a great teaching tool for circuit theory. For example, I would fill a tube with water, capped on one end. By making the tube level with the earth, the water will attempt to flow out the free end. This of course can't happen all at once, so a small wave propagates back thru the tube. The resulting water pulse is twice the length of the tube, just like an electronic pulse from a transmission line pulser. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 00:39:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA32138; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:36:59 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:28:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: What Ginger is Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"2gS2L1.0.4s7.h8iNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think that Eugene Mallove hit the nail on the head when he mentioned a reactionless drive. I mentioned The Cook Inertial Propulsion system CIP and I posted Robert Cook's website http://www.forceborne.com . I had hoped for one of you Vortexians to make an intelligent response. Unfortunately I was underwhelmed by your lack of response. It's operation violates Newton's third law of motion. According to Robert Cook, his drive would allow for significant savings of fuel if it were used to propel semi truck or a bus down the road. the same effect should work in the vertical direction too, without propellers, and with a lot higher efficiency than a rocket or jet. In my opinion, a small car, with a reactionless drive would do what Dean Kamen says that Ginger will do. Sincerely Thomas Malloy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 02:18:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21801; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 02:17:11 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 01:25:50 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: More on Ginger Resent-Message-ID: <"7lCrc3.0.ZK5.dcjNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Regards, Horace Heffner From weirdsci-announce-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 11 16:11:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA26485; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:58:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:58:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:57:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: off topic: brainhurt! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CmN_C1.0.fT6.8YaNw" mx1> Resent-From: weirdsci-announce eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/117 X-Loop: weirdsci-announce eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: weirdsci-announce-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow! Wow! A personal hero, Seattle cartoon artist Jim Woodring, now has an animation on his website. It's a little wordless story that takes about one minute to play. The file mentions "Golive" and ".swf" links, so I don't know which browsers might not be able to view it. Whim Grinder http://www.jimwoodring.com/funstuff/whimgrinder.html It's a story from a really twisted little alternate universe. I remember that it's one of the places where little kids go when they are dreaming. (Sometimes they wake up screaming.) If it turns out that you enjoy this sort of cracked-brained detrius, explore the main site and buy all of his comics: http://www.jimwoodring.com ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 04:42:18 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA17032; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 04:38:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 04:38:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-250.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.250] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5E8BC1.71B0D28 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:44:50 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <20010111083144.17111.qmail web2104.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DX29G2.0.2A4.NhlNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I had not seen this email before I replied to J.S. in "Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias" I just missed it. Michael Schaffer wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > So I am asking anyone on Vortex > > who is confident of their skill in mathematics to do a calculation > > of the problem. > > I will reply. Since John could not read math in a previous post, I > will just outline the steps with a bit of the mathematical detail for > those interested. I do not want to give a course on partial > differential equations and other topics here. > > > > I will lay out the problem. > > You have a 1 mile long straight pipe 5 inches inside diameter with > > a valve at the start [snip] > > Now water flows from the start to the end of the pipe at a good > > rate, I will let the > > person doing the calculations decide the speed, but it should be > > quite fast. > > I will do the calculation for any length, L. I have since realized that length is not a factor anyway. > I will simplify the > problem by assuming that the pipe wall is infinitely rigid. Good > This lets > me do a one dimensional calculation instead of a 2D one, and it frees > us from the complexities of dispersive waves. Good, but possible objections below. > The pipe diameter has > no effect and need not be specified. Good, Although.. > I will also assume that the > valve that closes the pipe outlet is also infinitely rigid and that > it acts instantaneously. Good > All this is in the spirit of keeping the > calculation simple without discarding the essentials. Good > > > When one sets out to calculate some behavior of a physical system, > one starts by "making a mathematical model." This just means deriving > (or looking up, if the problem has been done before) equations that > describe the behavior of the system's constituent components. This is > physics. Next, one solves the equations. This is math. Finally, one > displays the solution in various ways and interprets the results. > This is learning. > > > Mathematical model: We will need three equations: > > 1) Newton's F = ma, written for an infinitessimal element of water. > This was done a couple of centuries ago for fluids and is > > rho_o ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = - @p/@x (1) > > where is the partial derivative operator; @^2/@t^2 is the second > partial derivative with respect to t. > x = position coordinate along the tube > t = time > roh_o = mass density of the uncompressed fluid (mass/volume) > Xi = displacement of the fluid element located at x from > its equilibrium position > p = pressure at location x. > > Note that rho_o is constant. Xi and p are both functions of x and t. > Note that ^2 Xi/@t^2 is the acceleration of a fluid element. - @p/@x > is the net force in the x-direction acting on a fluid element. It > arises from nonuniformity of the pressure. > > 2) Equation of state (EOS). This describes how pressure and density > are related to one another for the given fluid. To reduce complexity, > I assume a linear relation, which is actually a good approximation > for the problem you outlined. My EOS is > > dp = sig (drho/rho_o) (2) > > where dp = the CHANGE in pressure from equilibrium. The "d" as > in "delta" is to remind you that this is a change. > drho = the CHANGE in density from its equilibrium rho_o, > when the fluid is compressed. > sig = a constant acting like a spring constant. When a > fluid element is compressed, its volume decreases > slightly, its density increases (drho is positive) > and pressure increases (dp is positive). I chose the > name "sig" for "sigma" since it is like an elastic > modulus, for which sigma is commonly used in mechanics. > > Note that drho/rho_o is just the negative of the relative volume > change of the fluid element. > > 3) A kinematic (geometric) equation that relates density change to > fluid compression: > > drho/rho_o = - Xi/@x (3) > > Now we combine the three equations of the model. In this simple > problem we can reduce them to a single partial differential equation > (PDE): > > ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = (sig/rho_o) (@^2/@x^2)Xi (4) > > This is a wave equation in one dimension. It relates time derivatives > of the displacement of the fluid to spatial derivatives of the same > displacement. In particular, it is the equation for an acoustic wave, > where the propagation speed or sound speed cs is > > cs= sqrt(sig/rho_o) . (5) > > For water, rho_o = 1000 kg/m^3, sig is about 2e9 Pa = 2 GPa or about > 20,000 bar, and cs is a bit over 1400 m/s. The PDE has three > solutions, one a wave going in the x-direction with speed cs, the > next a wave going in the negative x-direction, also with cs, and the > third is uniform flow (changing neither with time nor position) along > the pipe. Since this is a linear PDE, the general solution is a sum > of the allowable solutions. The wave can be any shape. > > Additional mathematical manipulation yields relations germain to the > suddenly stopped tube problem: > > dp = +/- sig (v/cs) (6) > > where v = Xi/@t is the velocity of the fluid element associated > with the wave motion. The sign depends on the direction > of wave propagation. Note that the pressure rise can be > calculated once the velocity change is known. > > and > (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x > = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 . (7) > > The left side of this eqn is kinetic energy/volume of the wave > motion. The right side is the potential energy of compression per > unit volume, written in two forms. > > Having obtained the mathematical solution, let us apply it to our > particular problem and learn. Before the outlet valve was suddenly > closed, water was moving uniformly along the tube at some velocity. > Let us call it vo. When the valve closes, the water at the outlet > end stops abruptly, but not water farther upstream. How do we > represent this with our solutions? We start with the uniformly > flowing solution vo. We add the acoustic wave solution that > propagates upstream, in the direction away from the valve. We must > give the wave an amplitude amplitude that makes the wave displacement > velocity v equal and opposite to the uniform flow, i.e. > > v = - vo (8) > > from the closing time onward. This makes the sum of the uniform flow > solution and the wave solution have zero velocity at the outlet end > after the valve is closed. Thus we have matched the problem posed by > John. > > Now, as the wave front propagates upstream, so does its displacement > velocity, which equals -vo. Behind the front the fluid velocity is vo > + v = vo - vo = 0. Thus, the wave front brings successive fluid > elements to a stop, even while fluid upstream of the front is still > moving. When the front reaches the inlet end, all the fluid in the > tube has been brought to a stop. It took the time L/cs for the wave > front to propagate the length of the tube and stop all the fluid. > > The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just the > dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a only a > uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get the > pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): > > dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) > > [We do not need the second wave solution for this problem if we do > not try to describe the sprayout and reflections that occur after the > front reaches the inlet end. The second wave solution has negative > pressure. If the the wave pressure drops below the uniform > equilibrium pressure, such as 1 bar as John posed in the problem, > then this particular mathematical model is no longer valid, since > water normally cannot sustain negative pressures.] > > Consider some examples. Let vo = 14 m/s (50.4 km/h). Then eq (9) > gives dp = 2e7 Pa = 200 bar (3000 psi for gringos) for the pressure > rise. If instead, vo = 28 m/s, then dp = 4e7 Pa = 400 bar (6000 psi). > > When the fluid has been stopped, it has no kinetic energy. However, > Eq (7), with v = -vo substituted in, shows that the potential energy > of the compressed fluid is just equal to (1/2) rho_o vo^2, the > kinetic energy that the water had before the flow was stopped. Eq (1) > from Newton and a frictionless fluid EOS give us conservation of > energy in a physically simple way---initial kinetic energy became > potential energy in compressed fluid. > > [snip] > > The shockwave should travel to the top at the speed of sound in > > water which should be a known value. > > There is no "shockwave" unless the initial water flow speed vo was > supersonic, greater than cs. There is an acoustic wave which travels > at the speed of sound. [My simplified mathematical model is not > accurate for high vo approaching cs, because the EOS deviates > appreciably from linearity under those conditions.] > > [snip] > > Finally the energy in the compression of water, which I expect > > would be very great as it's > > considered almost incompressible so even if only a little resulted > > the energy should be far greater than the kinetic energy. > > The potential energy stored in the compressed water is half the > product of the pressure times the displacement. See the middle term > of my eq (7). Although the pressure is high, the displacement is > small, so the potential energy is not outlandish. In fact, as the > math shows, it just equals the lost kinetic energy of the original > uniform flow. This is not unusual. It is a common result for all > problems of this kind. Thank you Michael for taking this seriously, I do appreciate it. If you halved the inertia hence kinetic energy of the fluid while keeping the other variables the same you would have free energy. If you had a device that did alter waters inertia would it's compressibility density and speed of sound in the water change? I do have a few problems, for one we are talking about energy, there is no energy in your calculations as there is no volume. How can you prove anything about the energy if it is not in your calculation. This makes me not entirely trust them I don't think it would be too hard to make this 3D, Just keep the simplified wave calculations and such. Further imagine that you can decrease waters inertia hence kinetic energy without any other changes, The delay would be the same as long as the speed of sound in water had not changed. But there would be a difference, as the wave hits the water, the water would more quickly be slowed down, the first lead of the wave would hit just as fast, but the kinetic energy of the water effects the suddenness of the rise. So if you have normal kinetic energy in the water a bit more water is pumped into the pipe because the leading edge of the wave is not strong enough. As I can't see how the delay is related to the kinetic energy, indeed it would seem that almost no kinetic energy 90+% of the compression would take place (other values remaining relatively constant) if there was almost no kinetic energy. And I can see how the kinetic energy is turned into compression and it has nothing to do with time delay but resisting the waves attempt to stop the water. It smoothes out an otherwise instantaneous event. Obviously your calculation is not convincing. Speed might be better to be a bit higher, but I just thought. You showed that if you double the speed the pressure is doubled 14 m/s 3000psi 28 m/s 6000psi. Exclude my ignorance but is double the pressure 4x the energy? If not that proves my point because double the velocity requires 4x the energy. Lets try an unreasonable speed, still well below the speed of sound in water, say 500mph and 250mph. The length and diameter are arbitrary, 1 meter long and 1cm dia, the volume is obvious, the velocity of the wave is obvious. Infinitely rigid pipe wall and perfect valves. No need to study the sprayouts and reflections. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 05:07:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26093; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:06:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:06:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp4.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-250.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.250] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5E923C.4670AD92 ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:12:28 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ifQ5r2.0.WN6.I5mNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > At 5:39 AM 1/12/1, John Berry wrote: > [snip] > >I really don't care, I have presented 4 things to lists recently. > >None of them have had a response worth posting them for. (A serious > >interested response) > > You must be joking! What do you consider a "serious" response? It seems > to me that it is YOU who, by refusing to strive to understand even high > school freshman math, that is not serious. Without basic math, how can you > even have a serious discussion? That is so stupid, Of course you can. I'm just not very good with math, Math is a shortcut, it does not help you understand physics. Just estimates what you already know. It is also very useful and critical in some situations. If I thought math and my mind would meld I would have already learnt it. > > > I think that Michael Shaffer's analysis was serious, thorough, and to the > point. It was, didn't see it at the time I sent my reply off... > If you are completely unable to understand anything of what is > being said to you, how can you expect to be serious yourself? > > I would suggest two alternative ways you could do something serious, since > theory appears to be beyond your means. Hardly > One is to focus on experiments I'm good with theory, just not math, I'm doing the best I can with experiments, I'm rather terrible with them really. Indeed I would be doing that if it weren't for some ill health, now that I'm getting better I'll start back at it. > , > and the other is to focus on invention. In the first case you simply do a > good job of obtaining the data, however it comes out, and that can be a lot > of fun and comparatively cheap and yet serious all at once. The other > alternative is to focus on inventing and then patenting and commercial > development. To go that route, unless you are a huckster, you typically > need to develop a demonstorable device before you can proceed with > commercial development. It is very very rare that anyone obtains funding > for an "idea." > > I have to wonder what you mean by "serious?" By serious I mean willing to look at the idea and not just something to be dismissed as soon as possible, An idea that breaks all the rules should not be defended against but embraced to see if it can be proven correct. The replies have all assumed that the idea is in error and don't try and show it true, but untrue. Serious would search hard for merit. Once merit is found then try and poke holes in it. Guess you just figure it's easier to just poke holes. Oh, and I'd point out that the 4 things I have presented or mentioned here are only 4 of many different ideas, Why you think that math means you can't create theories or understand them I don't know. Unless it has been kept very secret it is not known how precessional force comes about, it can be mathematically shown that it should, but it is not understood. I am the first person to show how this force comes about (so it seems) yet I don't know maths, how can that be Horrace? The simple fact is that maths are a useful tool, but far from necessary to get a good understanding of the universe. And when relied on blindly you lose understanding of the universe, they are a crutch. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 05:15:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA29263; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:13:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:13:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-Reply-To: <3A5DE1C6.A3A914BC ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Zt11l.0.297.zBmNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, John Berry wrote: > It doesn't sound like anyone cares! > Stop acting like "Defenders of the Faith" and more like real scientists! It's not a Religion! It > does not rely on closeminded blocking of anything that disagrees with it! This is because untested theories are a dime a dozen, and most people here have their own "important theories," so they don't usually think that other's are very important. Discussions which are purely about untested theories are usually a waste of time, and we need to concentrate on the TESTING of unconventional theories. This problem is so bad that when I started FREENRG-L, I built it into the rules: 1. Heavy on experimentalism. Or theory-led experiments. Or theoretical implications of experiments. This is not a forum for all those controversial physics theories being ignored by mainstream science. Try alt.sci.physics.new-theories. But if your theory leads directly to interesting, testable, real-world phenomena, then by all means discuss the experimental possibilites. If your experiments reveal anomalies not predicted by ANY theory, definitely jump right in and discuss your findings. Also it's very acceptable to publish theoretical work on a web page and announce its presence here. The solution? It's an old one: People with new theories must demonstrate their reality by performing appropriate experiments. It's the responsibility of the 'claimant' to do the work to show that their ideas are valid. It is NOT the responsibility of skeptics to do anything at all, as long as the skeptic just says "you haven't convinced me." On the other hand, if a skeptic says "your theory is wrong", then that is no longer skepticism, and the "skeptic" has to put up or shut up; the "skeptic" has to do some work to show that the theory *IS* wrong. There is a HUGE difference between "I don't believe you" and "you are mistaken." > I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall! We talk far too much (me included!) This forum is supposed to be about DOING. "Argumentation cannot suffice for the discovery of new work, since the subtlety of Nature is greater many times than the subtlety of argument." -- Sir Francis Bacon ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 05:49:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09828; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:47:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:47:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F0C8B.AE97766C bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:54:19 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IT - Internet Telepresence? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"12nMN.0.PP2.MhmNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > My guess is that IT is Internet Telepresence, and that's my final answer. Nothing new about that. We've been working on it since we did the first video teleconference. There's a few major obstacles to overcome. The first one is the Internet Protocol. The current version of IP won't even support voice communications reliably (do a search on VoIP) on the public Inet. The problem is there is no provision to guarantee that the IP packets arrive in a time synchronous manner. Heck, we can't even guarantee they arrive in the correct order! However, private nets can use a proprietary version of IP to guarantee "quality of service" for the packet network. But, what you are really describing is already on the market in one form. The first remote site medical surgery was accomplished in 1997. See: http://bones.cs.wcupa.edu/~epstein/remote.htm But I don't think consumers are quite ready for virtual reality controls. Imagine the product liability issues! Sorry, Neuromancer, your time has not yet arrived. Besides, didn't you see the article where Dean said that the invention derived from his fascination with steam engines? As one lister posted, I think the clue is in those patents for the low vibration sterling engine. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 06:08:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA16533; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:06:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F1134.C79096FA bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:14:12 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Ssshhh, IT References: <017501c07c34$e8ffdd80$c3c01d18 pestilence.ce.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2XWPs2.0.F24.0-mNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Stephens wrote: > > The Shadow Things and The Whispers say that 'IT' is a unicycle with an > internal flywheel, such that IT has gyroscopic stability. With its shock > absorber and control system, IT does not require great difficulty to master. Unless the flywheel axis of rotation is perpendicular to the wheel axis, you'll play hell trying to turn a corner! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 06:49:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA01155; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:45:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 06:45:15 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010112083759.0095f800 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:44:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: What Ginger is In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"eh04z1.0.zH.xXnNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This type of violation is old news. Do not credit cook with the idea. Ever since the invention of the swing where any child can violate "Newtons third" by pumping his legs back and forth to make the swing go higher... At 02:28 AM 1/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >I think that Eugene Mallove hit the nail on the head when he mentioned a >reactionless drive. > >I mentioned The Cook Inertial Propulsion system CIP and I posted Robert >Cook's website http://www.forceborne.com . I had hoped for one of you >Vortexians to make an intelligent response. Unfortunately I was >underwhelmed by your lack of response. > >It's operation violates Newton's third law of motion. According to Robert >Cook, his drive would allow for significant savings of fuel if it were >used to propel semi truck or a bus down the road. the same effect should >work in the vertical direction too, without propellers, and with a lot >higher efficiency than a rocket or jet. > >In my opinion, a small car, with a reactionless drive would do what Dean >Kamen says that Ginger will do. > >Sincerely > >Thomas Malloy Charlie Ford KC5-OWZ cjford1 yahoo.com cjford1 swbell.net _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 07:38:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA20065; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:34:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:34:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F25BB.D85E4E6B bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:41:47 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Post on Ginger Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4LjRX2.0.Rv4.9GoNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49849-2001Jan11.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 08:29:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA06176; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:24:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:24:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 07:31:34 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias Resent-Message-ID: <"Yp4xw2.0.QW1.t-oNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:12 PM 1/12/1, John Berry wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >> I have to wonder what you mean by "serious?" > >By serious I mean willing to look at the idea and not just something to be >dismissed as >soon as possible, That is indistinguishable from the definition of open minded. Open minded is not necessarily serious. A serious effort is one that has a significant investment of effort. >An idea that breaks all the rules should not be defended against but >embraced to see if it can be proven correct. [snip] I certainly am all for brainstorming and sharing ideas. I am guilty of spewing forth my share of crackpot ideas, just for the heck of it, but certainly enjoy seeing the ideas of others, and especially seeing synergetic concept development that sometimes happens here. However, it would not surprise me a bit if anything like that I posted is totally ignored! In fact, my main worry is posting too much junk. If a concept gives me a momentary positive experience, it might give others the same, be it right of wrong. Sometimes in making mistakes new ideas emerge. I do think a critical phase is an essential part of brainstorming too. In that phase it is necessary make some effort to shoot holes in ideas, including your own ideas. A negative contribution can be valuable, especially if it turns out to be information not known to the reader. Harping on or "selling" concepts, however, without solid (or any) new theoretical or experimental evidence, characteristic of the skeptic, true believer and huckster alike, is often just a waste of the reader's time. The burden of proof of a new theory or result is on the proposer. That typically requires the ability analyse quantitatively, and cetainly requires at least basic math, the language of science, for serious discussion. For example, it is difficult to talk sensibly about vector quantities, like momentum, if you don't even know what a vector is. I do hope you find the time to get your math skills developed. I think you will find it very worthwhile. This will be the end my comments on this, for a long time. Don't want to harp! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 08:29:58 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03601; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:18:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:18:53 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.1.4.0.20010112100701.038b96c0 earthtech.org> X-Sender: little earthtech.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.1 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:16:36 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Cook's Drive In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ENJu72.0.6u.ivoNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:28 AM 1/12/01 -0600, thomas malloy wrote: >I think that Eugene Mallove hit the nail on the head when he mentioned a >reactionless drive. > >I mentioned The Cook Inertial Propulsion system CIP and I posted Robert >Cook's website http://www.forceborne.com . I had hoped for one of you >Vortexians to make an intelligent response. Taking a quick look at the site: >The device utilizes centrifugal force and exchangeable weights timed in such >a way that they never go around the back half of the unit. The weights can >be put on and taken off of the unit without creating any measurable shock of >any kind. Tests conducted have shown that the less friction there is, the >better it works. All units that were capable of producing a fairly constant >force moved smoothly on a flat surface, unlike other so-called reactionless >devices that move in a jerky fashion. Most of those are "propelled" by >Coriolis force whether the inventors of those devices know it or not. This >device certainly does not utilize that force. One of the models even >propelled upward on a slight incline of low friction. In fact, when this >particular model was run without the exchangeable weights, it moved back >downhill proving that friction could have only hindered the device. The device therefore appears to be an engine which manipulates weights in a cyclical manner. At the risk of seeming close-minded, Cook's claim is so obviously in violation of Conservation of Momentum that theoretical consideration is useless. What I mean is that any theoretical consideration of this device is doomed to show that it cannot work...either that or you are making a mistake in your analysis. On the other hand, I would be most interested in a rigorous experiment which demonstrated that the device does work. Such an experiment should not be taken lightly as it is EASY to introduce artifacts when working with a rotating, eccentric-weight mechanism. Any test wherein the device is sitting on a surface and moving along is suspect because of the "stiction" situation. An excellent test of such a device is to suspend it from a rope, turn it on, and see if it can displace itself to one side and maintain the rope at a significant angle off vertical. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.earthtech.org Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:45:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA04244; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:41:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:41:55 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:41:23 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic In-Reply-To: <3A5F3687.A16C96BD bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"veWCO1.0.E21.Z7qNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a secondary issue. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:51:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA06855; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:46:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:46:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F44C0.A99E9D7 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:54:08 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vDIdu.0.1h1.CCqNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its > chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a > secondary issue. Yes, the FAA memo says the same thing: "If particles are inhaled or digested, they can be chemically toxic and cause a significant and long-lasting irradiation of internal tissue." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:53:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA08207; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:50:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:50:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:56:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jed Rothwell cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: 2,100 miles....Re: IT - Internet Telepresence? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xk5Dk3.0.402.TFqNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear FGolks, Jed mentions electrodes in an animal brain and then tele-transmission. We have successfully made barin connection with surface electrodes and sent the resultant from OH to Texas to SF Cal. The scalp electrodes were connected to a sophisitcated specialized system that "decodes" one aspect of huamn EEG to yieldd an analog control signal... the core processing also is analog. This was long distance human telepresence. On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > >Ok, here's another "educated" (he he) guess. I saw this guess in a message > >somewhere, and the more I think about it and read back through the > >'clues', it seems to fit better than the other ideas. > > Naa . . . Kamen is a hardware guy, not software. Internet telepresence is a > straight-forward, incremental improvement to present-day techniques. > Nothing to get worked up about. UNLESS, it is the kind of telepresence they > tested the other day with an owl monkey, where they plugged the wires > directly into the brain tissue to give the monkey a nervous system with > 600-mile-long virtual arms. That would be something! I envision a bright > future for this technique after they learn to extend the reach of other > organs for other purposes. However, I would not be the first to sign up for > it. Nor do I ever plan to undergo "painless laser eye surgery" which works > "almost all the time," when eyeglasses work 100% of the time, and if they > make a mistake cutting the lens, they can always do it again. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 09:57:19 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA09433; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:52:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:52:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:57:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: hank scudder cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0y1I53.0.JJ2.9HqNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Hank, I m not making fluid transformers... some other posters have been reporting poor current flow. I am aware of Hg being used as fluid conductor. On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > John > Try Mercury(Hg). It will work fine. > Hank > > On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > n > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > > > To make a magnetic winding of water that produces a reasonable > > field it is necessary to use an electrolyte that is very very > > conductive... the greater the conductivity the less loss. > > > > Sodium chloride and water is fine... provided you are using a > > saturated solution, or close to saturated. > > > > From Chemistry class....saturated meats no more salt will dissolve > > in given volume of water at given temperature. > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 10:29:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22650; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:22:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:22:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:29:53 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: What Ginger is To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A5F3F11.1AE01E05 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> Resent-Message-ID: <"hFC59.0.lX5.QjqNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > I had hoped for one of you Vortexians to make an intelligent response. > Unfortunately > I was underwhelmed by your lack of response. Why? Do you think Cook's ideas are something new? Many observers have been following this technology for years and waiting for it to reach a level of maturity that would make a replication attempt worthwhile. Till now, all I have seen is intriguing ideas and broad claims such as Cook's (and many others) but, so-far, these are unsubstantiated claims. When "great ideas" have been circulating on the internet for several years, particularly those that should be easy to demonstrate if they were true, then you can be sure that further mention will generate little response - unless that mention is to announce a public demonstration. Yes, I realize that Ginger may itself end up being that public demonstration. When I first saw the ibot patent and and its use of gyroscopes - and the other speculation about a unicycle and then Mallove's post, this came to mind (see below) - it is one of many sites on the web making these reactionless gyroscopic drive claims. This guy has better graphics and better theory (and more grandiose unsubstantiated claims) than Cook. http://www.open.org/~davidc/ Lets hope that Kamen has indeed perfected it! But even so, no matter how efficient any reactionless drive may be in theory, it will still need a source of power - and will end up requiring batteries for a long while. Yawn. Jones Beene Another reason that makes the reactionless gyroscopic drive seem like a "natural" for an individual transport kind of vehicle is that it's major drawback is lack of "starting" torque. You only have to watch the kids out on the sidewalks on their razor boards to see what the source of starting torque will be. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 10:34:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA25437; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:28:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:28:52 -0800 Message-Id: <200101121830.f0CIUhv17851 klingon.netkonect.net> From: "John Collins" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:31:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Address for....John Allen Please (fwd) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20010112002806.C82355 tao.org.uk> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Resent-Message-ID: <"kO3xd.0.ND6.apqNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > On Thu, Jan 11, 2001 at 02:53:33PM -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > > Please... > > > > Does anyone have a valid address for John Allen? > > > > his 'global cafe' address bounces..... > > I've not heard hide nor hair of him for well over a year! > (I met him in '99 in London). > > Joe I have a phone number that I used to call him on. I can send it to anyone who wants me to but I haven't tested it to see if he is still there.. John John Collins, author of:- "Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?" URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:03:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA02430; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:50:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:50:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:28:28 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A5F4CCC.DF8FE549 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Vm6Hm.0.Zb.x7rNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its > chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a > secondary issue. Although this is in all likelihood true, we will probably never know the truth because the stakes - and the potential liability are so high. I heard interesting speculation that suggests that U could become more radioactive under certain scenarios - one of which being its intended use (armor piercing). I don't believe that the (admittedly small) possibility of LENR has been ruled out - why? The impact of a U projectile is so energy intensive that computer modeling may fail to account for all the possibilities. Not only does the projectile become immediately liquefied (no small feat) and ultrapressurized on impact, when it enters a tank though a micron-sized self-generated pinhole (initially) it rapidly oxidizes and micro pulverizes so that it is going through many thermal and chemical transitions in a very short time. Have all the possibilities been studied? I doubt it. Yes it would all be outside the laws of physics as we currently understand them, but one could not logically hold to a belief in, say, CF or sonofusion and at the same time rule out LENR involving U and/or some contaminant in the projectile. Also be aware that U can be densified and hardened by an admixture of beryllium - not exactly the most stable element and one of the most toxic substance known. Well anyway, this is one for the conspiracy theorist. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:15:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA08954; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:06:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:06:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A5F0C8B.AE97766C bellsouth.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F0C8B.AE97766C@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 09:06:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: IT - Internet Telepresence? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"kNErO2.0.qB2.BNrNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Terry says: >Nothing new about that. We've been working on it since we did >the first video teleconference. > >There's a few major obstacles to overcome. The first one is the >Internet Protocol. The current version of IP won't even support >voice communications reliably (do a search on VoIP) on the public >Inet. The problem is there is no provision to guarantee that the >IP packets arrive in a time synchronous manner. Heck, we can't >even guarantee they arrive in the correct order! > >However, private nets can use a proprietary version of IP to >guarantee "quality of service" for the packet network. But, what >you are really describing is already on the market in one form. >The first remote site medical surgery was accomplished in 1997. >See: > >http://bones.cs.wcupa.edu/~epstein/remote.htm > Doh, stoopid packits... >But I don't think consumers are quite ready for virtual reality >controls. Imagine the product liability issues! Sorry, >Neuromancer, your time has not yet arrived. Any day now. It's coming. You'll see. First we kill all the lawyers, then go after the insurance guys. Then once again we can have toys and airplanes and do fun things at the beach like going bodysurfing. >Besides, didn't you see the article where Dean said that the >invention derived from his fascination with steam engines? As >one lister posted, I think the clue is in those patents for the >low vibration sterling engine. > If this hype is over a stupid scooter I'm going to puke. It had better be an antigravity/reactionless scooter at least. And in terms of not being "dangerous" as the hype suggests, how can a little powered scooter in an urban enviroment be an alternative to anything but sticking an ice pick in your eye? Still waiting for the revolution... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:43:57 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA19637; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:29:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:29:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010112142445.00b0e930 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:29:11 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic In-Reply-To: <3A5F4CCC.DF8FE549 pacbell.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"WuLai.0.fo4.9irNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I see I accidentally transferred this thread from VortexB-L . . . Jones Beene wrote: >(armor piercing). I don't believe that the (admittedly small) possibility of >LENR has been ruled out - why? The impact of a U projectile is so energy >intensive that computer modeling may fail to account for all the >possibilities. In the early history of cold fusion, some Russian researchers shot bullets into heavy water ice and looked for neutrons. They did not find any. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:56:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA29650; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:50:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:50:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F61C8.78A90ABF bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:58:00 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Whazzit? [was IT - Internet Telepresence] References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010111171647.00afe5a0 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F0C8B.AE97766C@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4YDFb.0.AF7.J0sNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Any day now. It's coming. You'll see. First we kill all the lawyers, > then go after the insurance guys. Then once again we can have toys > and airplanes and do fun things at the beach like going bodysurfing. Don't forget the Federal Regulators while you're offing those who impede our fun. > >Besides, didn't you see the article where Dean said that the > >invention derived from his fascination with steam engines? As > >one lister posted, I think the clue is in those patents for the > >low vibration sterling engine. > > > > If this hype is over a stupid scooter I'm going to puke. It had > better be an antigravity/reactionless scooter at least. And in terms > of not being "dangerous" as the hype suggests, how can a little > powered scooter in an urban enviroment be an alternative to anything > but sticking an ice pick in your eye? Well, I wasn't really kidding when I said it could be a hovercraft which used a resonant fluid in a bladder. Wired Mag. has confirmed that Dean has consulted with Amar Bose on the marketing of Ginger. I think you could create an apparent levitation much the same as pebbles seem to float above a surface which is vibrating at the right frequency. Combine that with Eugene's linear translation engine and you have one helluva scooter! Or maybe Kamen/Bose has found a way to crack water with acoustics. How about a vehicle which runs on water. Oops! Meyer did that one didn't he. Or maybe it's just a keen marketing scheme for a kewl skooter. Atlanta's Olympic committee did sorta the same thing with ITs mascot, Whazzit. Also there was a movie with the non-existent product VIP, called, (searching imdb.com - ah! - http://us.imdb.com/Title?0055100 ) "Lover Come Back". VIP was sold to the public and *then* the product was invented. It turned out to be solid ethanol, one tablet equivalent to a triple martini! Did't make it past the lawyers, regulators, etc... Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 11:58:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA30683; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:53:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F5307.E1342DC6 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:55:05 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F4CCC.DF8FE549@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1_MF23.0.KV7.-2sNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jones Beene wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its > > chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a > > secondary issue. > > Although this is in all likelihood true, we will probably never know the truth > because the stakes - and the potential liability are so high. > > I heard interesting speculation that suggests that U could become more > radioactive under certain scenarios - one of which being its intended use > (armor piercing). I don't believe that the (admittedly small) possibility of > LENR has been ruled out - why? The impact of a U projectile is so energy > intensive that computer modeling may fail to account for all the possibilities. > Not only does the projectile become immediately liquefied (no small feat) and > ultrapressurized on impact, when it enters a tank though a micron-sized > self-generated pinhole (initially) it rapidly oxidizes and micro pulverizes so > that it is going through many thermal and chemical transitions in a very short > time. Have all the possibilities been studied? I doubt it. As uranium sits around, it builds up a concentration of its decay daughters which are more radioactive than is pure U238. As a result, the material will appear to be more radioactive than expected. These daughters are released upon impact and can contaminate the local environment. The biological effect depends on where in the body these isotopes go and how long they stay there. Some of the daughters are more dangerous in this regard than is uranium. > > > Yes it would all be outside the laws of physics as we currently understand > them, but one could not logically hold to a belief in, say, CF or sonofusion > and at the same time rule out LENR involving U and/or some contaminant in the > projectile. Also be aware that U can be densified and hardened by an admixture > of beryllium - not exactly the most stable element and one of the most toxic > substance known. Since beryllium is so difficult to handle, other materials are generally used in rounds. It is very doubtful that a LENR reaction would occur because the required solid atomic structure does not exist once the uranium melts. Ed Storms > > > Well anyway, this is one for the conspiracy theorist. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 12:02:11 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA24928; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:43:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:43:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:44:25 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tpng9.0.P56.7vrNw" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/39999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not allowed to accumulate within the local atmosphere. Otherwise the radioactivity is insignificant. In spite of this reality, the US government does not make a distinction between U238, which is depleted uranium, and U235, which is dangerous, in judging the hazards of the radiation. Ed Jed Rothwell wrote: > The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its > chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a > secondary issue. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 12:18:03 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA05164; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:11:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:11:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A4857A7.2DCC877D ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:32:39 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: IT uniscooter? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NGcOl3.0.YG1.gJsNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 12, 2,000 Vortex, Matt Drudge's website has a drawing of a single tire powered (presumably), handlebarred scooter with the driver standing astride the tire on a platform type 'stirrup'. Looks like the technology developed for the climbing, reaching wheelchair was miniaturized and adapted to an uni-scooter, personal transportation vehicle. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 12:30:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08602; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:18:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:18:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:09:01 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A5F645D.A2D874FA pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010112142445.00b0e930 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"1hXfq3.0.K62.HQsNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > In the early history of cold fusion, some Russian researchers shot bullets > into heavy water ice and looked for neutrons. They did not find any. There is some Russian literature from the 80's in my files titled 'Stress induced fusion' that states a contrary conclusion. In 1986, before P&F, a variety of what was later termed cold fusion was reported in LiD crystals. These crystals when sharply struck were reported by the Russians to eject neutrons. This work has yet to be confirmed (so far as I have been able to ascertain). European CF researchers later showed that shock treatment of titanium or palladium deuterated metals also produced neutrons. See -Derjaguin et al. LiD crystals struck giving rise to MeV neutrons emitted (shock destruction) 1. Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986). 2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 (1986). -neutrons due to electrostatic accelerations of d+ in the cracks of the crystal.[Cohen, J. S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989).] The main problem with any of these studies is likely to be found in the vaguaries of detection. Neutrons are difficult to detect in small pulsed bunches. Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 13:00:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA24587; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:55:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F70E3.9BE4B2EB bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:02:27 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IT uniscooter? References: <3A4857A7.2DCC877D ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-B3t11.0.006.kysNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > Jan. 12, 2,000 > > Vortex, > > Matt Drudge's website has a drawing of a single tire powered > (presumably), handlebarred scooter with the driver standing astride the > tire on a platform type 'stirrup'. > Looks like the technology developed for the climbing, reaching > wheelchair was miniaturized and adapted to an uni-scooter, personal > transportation vehicle. > > -ak- Here is the URL for the WIPO application: http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=wo&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=0075001&ID=WO+++0075001A1+I+ Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 13:49:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA16925; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:44:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:44:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F7C88.B3A3430E bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 16:52:08 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IT uniscooter? References: <3A4857A7.2DCC877D ix.netcom.com> <3A5F70E3.9BE4B2EB@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vHH5_3.0.N84.KhtNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Here is the URL for the WIPO application: > > http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=wo&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=0075001&ID=WO+++0075001A1+I+ Reading the patent application, I see why Amar Bose was consulted. Ginger uses various proximity detectors presumably for safety. I'm sure some would be ultrasonic like the Polaroid autofocus device. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 13:50:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA17474; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:46:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:46:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: IT^2, Internet Telepresence AND a dessert topping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"R-PpJ3.0.yG4.RitNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Rick Monteverde wrote: > If this hype is over a stupid scooter I'm going to puke. It had > better be an antigravity/reactionless scooter at least. AHA! Just take a Stupid frame of mind, and what pops out? An internet telepresence robot... WITH A UNICYCLE ALL TERRAIN DRIVE! GAH! But seriously folks, can't you just see the inventor demonstrating to Bezos and Jobs a little toy that can tool around on its single wheel while its little arms duplicate the motions of his datagloves? Like an expensive version of this: NIKKO 'ufo buddy' radio controlled gyroscopic robot toy http://store.yahoo.com/faoschwarz/314500.html Sort of like Rosie from the Jetsons, but with a telepresence human inside. Give the "Pro" version some hydraulics and a cute little forklift. I woulda bought one of these last xmas at the local FAO Schwarz, but the darned thing cost $70. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:31:07 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02209; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:20:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:20:58 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:22:57 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What Ginger is In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010112083759.0095f800 postoffice.swbell.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VdDdi.0.QY.ADuNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just dont walk the length of a canoe when you are nosed into a dock!! Hank On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > This type of violation is old news. Do not credit cook with the > idea. Ever since the invention of the swing where any child can violate > "Newtons third" by pumping his legs back and forth to make the swing go > higher... > > > At 02:28 AM 1/12/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I think that Eugene Mallove hit the nail on the head when he mentioned a > >reactionless drive. > > > >I mentioned The Cook Inertial Propulsion system CIP and I posted Robert > >Cook's website http://www.forceborne.com . I had hoped for one of you > >Vortexians to make an intelligent response. Unfortunately I was > >underwhelmed by your lack of response. > > > >It's operation violates Newton's third law of motion. According to Robert > >Cook, his drive would allow for significant savings of fuel if it were > >used to propel semi truck or a bus down the road. the same effect should > >work in the vertical direction too, without propellers, and with a lot > >higher efficiency than a rocket or jet. > > > >In my opinion, a small car, with a reactionless drive would do what Dean > >Kamen says that Ginger will do. > > > >Sincerely > > > >Thomas Malloy > > Charlie Ford > > KC5-OWZ > cjford1 yahoo.com > cjford1 swbell.net > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:31:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04732; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:48 -0800 Message-Id: <200101122225.OAA04648 mx1.eskimo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:45 -0800 From: Yahoo! Finance To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Reply-to: aki ix.netcom.com Subject: Yahoo! Finance Story - Yahoo - Mystery invention "Ginger" may be motorized scooter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Resent-Message-ID: <"Ca9PG3.0.k91.hHuNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki (aki ix.netcom.com) has sent you a news article

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Yahoo - Mystery invention "Ginger" may be motorized scooter
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Friday January 12, 1:35 pm Eastern Time

Mystery invention "Ginger" may be motorized scooter

NEW YORK, Jan 12 (Reuters) - The mystery invention code-named ``Ginger'' that has set the U.S. technology world abuzz may be little more than a motorized mini-scooter, judging from a recent patent application that came to light on Friday.

A Dec. 14, 2000, filing with the World Intellectual Property Organization available on the Internet at http://www.wipo.org describes a ``class of transportation vehicles for carrying an individual over ground...that is unstable with respect to tipping when...not powered.''

This ``personal mobility vehicle'' pictures what appears to be a young girl balanced on a two-wheeled scooter. The patent application by millionaire inventor Dean Kamen and six co-inventors fits descriptions made in broadcast reports by people claiming to have seen prototypes of the vehicle.

Harvard Business School Press is said to have paid $250,000 for a book detailing ``IT'' that is set to be unveiled in 2002 by Kamen, creator of devices such as a portable insulin pump and a wheelchair that climbs stairs.

The invention is said to take just 10 minutes to assemble using simple tools, according to details from the book proposal published by media industry watchers Inside.com. Ginger could cost less than $2,000 a piece. Top computer industry leaders and investment bankers were named as backers, Inside.com said.

In a statement issued on Thursday, Kamen, 49, declined to reveal much on the device other than saying: ``While our projects are in the development phase and have client confidentiality requirements, it is impossible for us to comment further.''

Kamen and his company, Manchester, New Hampshire-based DEKA Research, did not return calls on Friday seeking comment on the patent application.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:33:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04740; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:49 -0800 Message-Id: <200101122225.OAA04654 mx1.eskimo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:25:46 -0800 From: Yahoo! Finance To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Reply-to: aki ix.netcom.com Subject: Yahoo! Finance Story - Yahoo - Mystery invention "Ginger" may be motorized scooter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Resent-Message-ID: <"0ymHx2.0.-91.hHuNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki (aki ix.netcom.com) has sent you a news article

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delayed 20 mins - disclaimer
Friday January 12, 1:35 pm Eastern Time

Mystery invention "Ginger" may be motorized scooter

NEW YORK, Jan 12 (Reuters) - The mystery invention code-named ``Ginger'' that has set the U.S. technology world abuzz may be little more than a motorized mini-scooter, judging from a recent patent application that came to light on Friday.

A Dec. 14, 2000, filing with the World Intellectual Property Organization available on the Internet at http://www.wipo.org describes a ``class of transportation vehicles for carrying an individual over ground...that is unstable with respect to tipping when...not powered.''

This ``personal mobility vehicle'' pictures what appears to be a young girl balanced on a two-wheeled scooter. The patent application by millionaire inventor Dean Kamen and six co-inventors fits descriptions made in broadcast reports by people claiming to have seen prototypes of the vehicle.

Harvard Business School Press is said to have paid $250,000 for a book detailing ``IT'' that is set to be unveiled in 2002 by Kamen, creator of devices such as a portable insulin pump and a wheelchair that climbs stairs.

The invention is said to take just 10 minutes to assemble using simple tools, according to details from the book proposal published by media industry watchers Inside.com. Ginger could cost less than $2,000 a piece. Top computer industry leaders and investment bankers were named as backers, Inside.com said.

In a statement issued on Thursday, Kamen, 49, declined to reveal much on the device other than saying: ``While our projects are in the development phase and have client confidentiality requirements, it is impossible for us to comment further.''

Kamen and his company, Manchester, New Hampshire-based DEKA Research, did not return calls on Friday seeking comment on the patent application.

Email this story - Most-emailed articles - Most-viewed articles

Related News Categories: US Market News
Help

Copyright © 2001 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.Privacy Policy - Terms of Service

Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.
Questions or Comments?
From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 14:56:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA14205; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: <020f01c07cf2$09b28c40$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Thermal Storage Using Bricks Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:47:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07CAE.F3EE2C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"dV7yp.0.tT3.leuNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07CAE.F3EE2C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How many Btus can you store in a ton of bricks? http://www.steffes.com/C_furnaces.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07CAE.F3EE2C40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Steffes Corporation.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Steffes Corporation.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.steffes.com/C_furnaces.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.steffes.com/C_furnaces.html Modified=008588BCF17CC001F7 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07CAE.F3EE2C40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 15:09:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23354; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:04:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:04:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:06:29 -0800 (PST) From: hank scudder To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IT uniscooter? In-Reply-To: <3A5F7C88.B3A3430E bellsouth.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tgCt51.0.hi5.-ruNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Practical Sailor magazine just had the results of a Marine Battery test, including a DEKA battery, which was the best in their test. Is this from the same DEKA outfit as Kamen? Has anyone ever heard of this battery? Hank On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Terry Blanton wrote: > Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Here is the URL for the WIPO application: > > > > http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=wo&LG=en&DB=EPD&PN=0075001&ID=WO+++0075001A1+I+ > > Reading the patent application, I see why Amar Bose was > consulted. Ginger uses various proximity detectors presumably > for safety. I'm sure some would be ultrasonic like the Polaroid > autofocus device. > > Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 15:22:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28681; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:16:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:16:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5F91E9.6B7E78B7 bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:23:21 -0500 From: Terry Blanton X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: IT uniscooter? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bzzuO1.0.__6.J1vNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: hank scudder wrote: > > The Practical Sailor magazine just had the results of a Marine Battery > test, including a DEKA battery, which was the best in their test. Is this > from the same DEKA outfit as Kamen? Has anyone ever heard of this battery? Probably. I haven't been able to reach http://www.dekaresearch.com/ due to heavy traffic. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 15:47:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA05724; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:40:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:48:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What Ginger is - now Rope Test Resent-Message-ID: <"hyL_J2.0.LP1.iNvNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:44 AM 1/12/1, Charles Ford wrote: >This type of violation is old news. Do not credit cook with the >idea. Ever since the invention of the swing where any child can violate >"Newtons third" by pumping his legs back and forth to make the swing go >higher... That is not a violation of Newton's third law. Moving the legs back and forth does not change the center of gravity. It is the pulling on the rope sideways that permits the application of a lateral force up at the point of suspension. If, when the rope is momentarily not vertical, there is a pull on the rope, part of that force vector from the rope upon the rope support is lateral, becuase the rope is at that point not vertical. An equal but opposite lateral force is exerted on the swing. When a child lifts his legs he simultaneously leans back, tugging on the rope. This puts a longitudinal force on the rope, distorting the rope from being a straight veritcal line, and coincidentally shortens the distance of the swing and occupant from the ground, momentarily increasing angular velocity. It is the lateral component of the force on the support from the pull on the rope that adds to (or subtracts from, depending on timing) the angular momentum of the swing and occupant. To pass the rope test, a third law violating device has to maintain an angle such that the center of gravity of all that is on the rope remains at all times past the vertical in one direction. Making the rope swing like a pendulum does not pass the test. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 16:05:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09785; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:51:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:51:20 -0800 Message-ID: <002c01c07cf2$89cfca00$bd19d7d2 ibmbn145hv> From: "Greg Watson" To: Subject: SMOT Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:21:09 +1030 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"_OEFh1.0.lO2.tXvNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I will post as much as I can remember about the SMOT affair on Monday. Give me the weekend to write it. In the short I made 5 errors: 1) I listened to the roar of the crowd to "Close the Loop". 2) I tried to make an unreliable but interesting toy into a "Open the Box and you got OU". 3) I ran out of money & time & went looking for quick solutions. 4) I forgot the Golden Rule. "He who has the Gold, makes the Rules". 5) Agreements / Contracts are worthless unless you have the time & money to defend them in court & if the other guy has more, you will probably lose. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson asiaonline.net.au From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 17:53:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27936; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:46:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:46:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5FA5C6.2AE1A68C ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:48:42 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010112142445.00b0e930 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F645D.A2D874FA@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lYLs93.0.Qq6.yDxNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This process is called fractofusion and a large literature describes the process. The action is not cold fusion, but high voltage induced fusion of a conventional kind. Ed Storms Jones Beene wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > In the early history of cold fusion, some Russian researchers shot bullets > > into heavy water ice and looked for neutrons. They did not find any. > > There is some Russian literature from the 80's in my files titled 'Stress induced > fusion' that states a contrary conclusion. > > In 1986, before P&F, a variety of what was later termed cold fusion was reported > in LiD crystals. These crystals when sharply struck were reported by the > Russians to eject neutrons. > > This work has yet to be confirmed (so far as I have been able to ascertain). > European CF researchers later showed that shock treatment of titanium or > palladium deuterated metals also produced neutrons. > > See -Derjaguin et al. LiD crystals struck giving rise to MeV neutrons emitted > (shock destruction) > 1. Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986). > 2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 (1986). > -neutrons due to electrostatic accelerations of d+ in the cracks of the > crystal.[Cohen, J. S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989).] > > The main problem with any of these studies is likely to be found in the vaguaries > of detection. Neutrons are difficult to detect in small pulsed bunches. > > Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:16:30 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA04520; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:10:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:10:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5FB90E.609A0D9D earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:10:22 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jean hudon , artr@juno.com, ab758 virgin.vip.vi, Vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Murray: Hudon: enthusiasm re Mills, etc. 1.12.01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"K9aWF2.0.Y61.7axNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Murray: Hudon: enthusiasm re Mills, etc. 1.12.01 Jan 12 2001 Hello, Quoting Mark Graffis, below: "A working prototype of a fuel cell coupled with this new, high-tech solar panel made from silicon or refined sand. The flat silicon solar panels are arranged in a cube - and that with the fuel cell ends up being about the size of a Rubik's cube. Just 10 of those cubes would be enough to generate enough electrical power for an entire house." This statement needs clarifying, since the Rubik's cube, usually sold as a roughy 3X3X3 inch plastic cube toy has no set size. Randall Mills has not attracted wide respect from those with the technical skills to evaluate his claims. For a vigorous, often sympathetic discussion of many of his ideas and claims, visit the archive of Vortex-L discussion group at http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/ Jean Hudon, why don't you ask for advice from an open-minded, open-hearted, very well informed researcher, with years of experience in actually testing in his lab many prominent cold fusion and free energy devices: Scott Little little earthtech.org http://www.earthtech.org/ Sadly, he's never been able to substantiate these claims. Wind power, which is extremely competitive economically, and wonderfully compatible with the environment, deserves a lot of publicity... It can safely meet the entire energy needs of all humanity. Even the birds can dodge the huge, slowly rotating blades. Blessings within the One, Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Road Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 Subject: Flying gyroplanes with hydrino energy From: art b Rosenblum (...) It will eventually be possible to fly gyroplanes with hydrino energy, but it may, take a few years before that kind of flight is avialable. For "those who tuned in late" gyroplanes are a new type of autogyro far simpler to fly and more economical than helicopters, yet they land and take off vertically and are totally safe in event of engine failure. By flying at all times in an autorotation mode, they simply descend slowly if power is lost, and can land anywhere. They will be coming out in early 2002. Presently five are already flying and you can watch on a video or computer CD ROM. A photo is at www.gyroplane.cjb.net Contact Art at Aquarian for more info. Peace and Love, Art Rosenblum Note from Jean: Interesting flying machine indeed. To find out more about hydrino energy, pay a visit at www.blacklightpower.com - describing Dr. Randell Mills' invention about which Hal Fox, *the* expert reference with regard to new energy devices, wrote the following a couple days ago (to get a copy of the new energy journal he publishes, contact him directly at : "I can testify that Dr. Randell Mills has a working new-energy device that provides thermal energy. At least the several papers and data that I have had from Dr. Mills over the years (beginning in 1989) lead me to believe that he is a man of principle. In my judgment, his company will make money both from the development and sales of new types of chemical compounds and also from the sale of thermal energy devices. There are four other devices being commercialized. Three of them put out direct electrical energy and one puts out a reported 20 times as much thermal energy as input electrical energy." AND IN ANOTHER RECENT EMAIL. HAL ALSO WROTE: (...) There are new-energy devices that will be available commercially during 2001-2002 (my best estimate) that will be considerably better than motor-generator sets fueled by gasoline or diesel. Also they will not have a polluting exhaust, not be noisy in operation and will be able to be installed in homes, offices, and greenhouses. For the latest developments in new-energy devices, subscribe to the Journal of New Energy. Best personal regards, Hal Fox, Editor, J. New Energy P.S. Here is some information on solar energy (also sent by Hal Fox): On a cloudless day, the sun's energy is about one kilowatt per square meter (a little larger than a square yard) if the flat surface is perpendicular to the sun's rays. Up to the most recent developments in solar panels, the efficiency of converting sunlight to electricity is less than twenty percent. On cloudy days, or when the sun's rays are not perpendicular to the solar panels, the overall efficiency is less. As we progress and use more electrical energy in our homes and offices, it is evident that we will need new sources of energy. Fortunately, the vast amount of energy that is everywhere present in the universe can now be used as one of our energy sources. This energy is enormous but, until very recently, there has not been found a method for tapping this energy source. (This energy source is known by various names, vacuum energy, space energy, zero-point energy, ZPE, etc.) To get an idea of some scientist's estimates of the incredible amount of space energy: If you could transfer all of the space energy in one cubic foot of space into thermal energy, you could boil the Atlantic Ocean! * * * * * * * * * * * Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 From: Mark Graffis Subject: New Technology May Run Fossil Fuels Into the Ground This showed up at ABC's site after i requested they post something on it, don't know but that they might have anyway. It was a feature segment yesterday on ABC World News. http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/WorldNewsSaturday/altpower010106.html By Jim Goldman ABCNEWS.com Jan. 6 - There's an excitement going on in the environmental movement over the development in solar energy- a development that some hope will eventually run rings around fossil fuels. Technicians have developed a solar powered flying wing that will be able to stay aloft for six months at a time. The airplane generates all of its own energy, and stores its own energy, which has been the problem for solar up until now, and can exist completely independently of outside energy sources. Engineers say the technology that powers the aircraft could solve some of the energy industry's biggest challenges - generating and then storing solar energy and making it cost-effective. A working prototype of a fuel cell coupled with this new, high-tech solar panel made from silicon or refined sand. The flat silicon solar panels are arranged in a cube - and that with the fuel cell ends up being about the size of a Rubik's cube. Just 10 of those cubes would be enough to generate enough electrical power for an entire house. According to Dick Swanson, CEO of Sun Power, they're talking about the future of power being sunlight, which is free, and sand, which is probably the most prevalent material on the planet. This is how it works: The sun's energy splits water into hydrogen and oxygen during the day. Then, a fuel cell then brings the two gases back together to make electricity at night. "This energy storage system is actually a fairly elegant, simple system, we think," says John Delfrate of NASA. Simple and Effective - So Far The flying wing is one example which some day could be used to monitor the environment and relay telecommunications data. Power plants will be next, using thousands of solar cell cubes. "We can produce this for less than $200 for 200 watts, making it the first approach that we believe can truly compete with fossil fuels," Swanson says of the cubes. In the future, far fewer cubes could be used for personal power plants. "It takes about 10 of these to power one house," Swanson says. For now, solar power still costs three times as much as oil and gas. Analysts say that is the final challenge the industry needs to overcome before it comes a realistic energy alternative. * * * * * * * * * * * Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 From: Mark Graffis Subject: More on the `cube' The company is real: http://www.sunpowercorp.com/ And appears to have done the flight stunt before: http://www.cnnsf.com/newsvault/output/solarflyer.html http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/10/31/solar.fuel.cell/ --___ __o -- _ \<,_ -- (_)/ (_) Mark Graffis * * * * * * * * * * * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:24:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA08325; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:19:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:19:29 -0800 Message-ID: <026901c07d0f$3fc60f60$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010112142445.00b0e930@pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F645D.A2D874FA@pacbell.net> <3A5FA5C6.2AE1A68C@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:16:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="EUC-KR" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"sfjEY2.0._12.nixNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic How come Every Time I click on to a vortex message from Ed Storms it opens a window telling that I need to download a 2.2 Mega Korean Language Translation. :-) Regards, frederick > This process is called fractofusion and a large literature describes the process. > The action is not cold fusion, but high voltage induced fusion of a conventional > kind. > > Ed Storms > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:45:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14209; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:41:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:41:08 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Keith Nagel" To: Subject: RE: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:44:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <026901c07d0f$3fc60f60$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Resent-Message-ID: <"VztYG.0.oT3.41yNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. Not sure, but I'll hazzard a guess that Ed is using a Mac and the header info causing you the trouble is the following >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Particularly that charset instruction. Don't know if there's much Ed can do about this, or you (except download). I don't notice this problem with Ed's mail, what are you using for an email package? K. -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 10:17 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic ----- Original Message ----- From: Edmund Storms To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic How come Every Time I click on to a vortex message from Ed Storms it opens a window telling that I need to download a 2.2 Mega Korean Language Translation. :-) Regards, frederick > This process is called fractofusion and a large literature describes the process. > The action is not cold fusion, but high voltage induced fusion of a conventional > kind. > > Ed Storms > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 18:59:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA18324; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:58:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:58:21 -0800 Message-ID: <029101c07d14$ad1498c0$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: References: Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:55:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"h6E2p3.0.EU4.CHyNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Nagel To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 6:44 PM Subject: RE: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic Keith wrote: > Hi. > > Not sure, but I'll hazzard a guess that Ed is using a Mac > and the header info causing you the trouble is the following > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; > x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" > > Particularly that charset instruction. > > Don't know if there's much Ed can do about this, or you (except download). > I don't notice this problem with Ed's mail, what are you using for > an email package? Outlook Express. It came up again with your message. Either it's Ed's name or e-mail address that causes it to pop up. :-) FJS > > K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net] > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 10:17 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Edmund Storms > To: > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic > > How come Every Time I click on to a vortex message from Ed Storms it > opens a window telling that I need to download a 2.2 Mega Korean > Language Translation. :-) > > Regards, frederick > > > This process is called fractofusion and a large literature describes the > process. > > The action is not cold fusion, but high voltage induced fusion of a > conventional > > kind. > > > > Ed Storms > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 19:42:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31433; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:38:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:38:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010112222738.00a5b540 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:45:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: RE: Tapping ZPE In-Reply-To: <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052C8B hersilia.dvdempire. lan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2UPGf3.0.3h7.ksyNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:27 PM 1/11/01, you wrote: >unless i'm grossly misunderstanding the process (dont discount that option >;) the bubble has a 'maximum capacity' state where it is under the least >pressure. as i understood it, everytime it collapses/compresses down to >it's maximum density and gives off light, a bit of the air is 'lost' >(converted to energy) in being given off as light. i seem to remember this >beign confirms by analysis of the spectrums of light given off by >sonoluminescing bubble. every burst of light has a slightly different >spetrum of emission because with each burst there's less and less air in the >bubble to re-expand and re-compress. as the bubble gives off light and then >re-expands (to recollapse, etc) it continues to 'lose air' that is given off >as light. eventually it reaches a point where it can no longer expand (for >lack of any air to expand?) - and at this point it reexpands and begins to >give off light again from it fullest point, and the cycle starts all over >again. as i understand, those 'peak' points where the bubble is at it's >maximum capacity have been foudn to be identical based upon the light >emission of the bubble. > >unfortunately, i don't have the Sl white papers on hand that i got most of >this info from. before i go digging, though, i should first ask if anyone >knows of this information. is this accepted on SL, or do i have my facts >wrong? > > > >-Zak Ahoy there Zak, I don't know how long you have been with the list, but I did a number of experiments with cavitation, and had a fairly large website called the Cavitation College that dealt with the subject in some depth, along with ZPE, Casimir Effect, Oscillons, SL, Schlieren Photography, and a few other related subjects. The site was taken down due to financial difficulties a couple of years ago, but I've been slowly putting together a larger one that I hope to post on one of the free servers at some point. For now, I have the old site zipped up into one large, self-extracting file if you would like it. The file is about 1.8 megs, so you would need to make sure that your ISP, e-mail program, and hard drive can swallow it in one lump without choking. If anyone else is interested in this, I will mail it to you as well. You can contact me privately. Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:02:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA03792; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:59:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:59:22 -0800 Message-ID: <02d001c07d1d$33472cc0$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Solar Two Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:55:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CDA.04CAFAE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"aKWSg.0.Ax.PAzNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CDA.04CAFAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel for any birds that fly into the heat flux. http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN06-21-96/barstow.html FJS ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CDA.04CAFAE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Solar Two.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Solar Two.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN06-21-96/barstow.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN06-21-96/barstow.html Modified=207FB8D81C7DC00189 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CDA.04CAFAE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:25:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA09999; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:22:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:22:46 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010112220527.00a23130 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:31:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias In-Reply-To: <3A5E923C.4670AD92 ihug.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"e-eGy3.0.1S2.LWzNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 06:12 PM 1/12/01 +1300, you wrote: > > You must be joking! What do you consider a "serious" response? It seems > > to me that it is YOU who, by refusing to strive to understand even high > > school freshman math, that is not serious. Without basic math, how can you > > even have a serious discussion? > >That is so stupid, Of course you can. >I'm just not very good with math, Math is a shortcut, it does not help you >understand >physics. Just estimates what you already know. >It is also very useful and critical in some situations. >If I thought math and my mind would meld I would have already learnt it. > > > Whoooo hold on now..... Without math there is no physics.... without physics there is no engineering, There is no psychology, There is no medicine and so on and so on... It is not a shortcut or a tool it is the basic truth that underlies everything I have had my problems with PHD's but usually I have found that the ones that where competent in math where the ones that where able to rise up out of the academic mud and apply there skills. But this does not only apply to PHD's Math is for everybody. Math does not prove what you already know but shows you the way to what you do not know. I could not exist as an engineer without it For example. Einstein knew through conjecture and the experience of others very much about the speed of light... Then wend about proving what he knew through math. E=MC^2 was a correction to Newtons Kinetic energy. Conversion of mass to energy was a discovery based on the math. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:42:16 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14398; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:35:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:35:19 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:35:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: IT^2, Internet Telepresence AND a dessert topping Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"l9kem3.0.uW3.7izNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill - >Sort of like Rosie from the Jetsons Hmm...what other "Gingers" are there in pop/tv/movie culture? There's Ginger from Gilligan's Island, Ginger the hen from Chicken Run - anybody have any others? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:57:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21274; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:52:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:52:07 -0800 Message-ID: <031901c07d24$92a119e0$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Test Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:49:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"c5l2h.0.IC5.sxzNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Checking out why the Korean Language thing comes up on Ed Storms storms2 ix.netcom.com posts to vortexl-l FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 20:59:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21996; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:53:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:53:06 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010112225129.00b32e10 postoffice.swbell.net> X-Sender: cjford1 pop.mail.yahoo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:01:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Charles Ford Subject: Re: What Ginger is - now Rope Test In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"xdzlR1.0.cN5.nyzNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This example was rhetorical, although it was inaccurate. My apologies.... However there are several working internal propulsion devices... And now that I took another look at Newtons third (I am not sure what I was thinking it was) The IPE depends on the third law to function. Without the equal and opposite there would be no movement... At 02:48 PM 1/12/01 -0900, you wrote: >At 8:44 AM 1/12/1, Charles Ford wrote: > >This type of violation is old news. Do not credit cook with the > >idea. Ever since the invention of the swing where any child can violate > >"Newtons third" by pumping his legs back and forth to make the swing go > >higher... > > >That is not a violation of Newton's third law. > >Moving the legs back and forth does not change the center of gravity. It is >the pulling on the rope sideways that permits the application of a lateral __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 21:00:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA21202; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:52:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:52:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A486ACB.DE8CA15D ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 01:54:19 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 12, 2001] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-gUQ31.0.7B5.mxzNw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: What's New for Jan 12, 2001 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: "What's New" To: aki ix.netcom.com WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Jan 01 Washington, DC 1. NMD: "ROBUST" DEFENSE PLAN IS STARTING TO SOUND FAMILIAR. A ground-based interceptor missile failed to kill its target, there were charges that contractors rigged tests, the GAO estimated the cost of a completed system at a staggering $110B and Congress was having second thoughts. The year was 1992 (WN 20 Mar 92). George Bush was President, the missile was the ERIS, and the system was GPALS (Global Protection Against Limited Strikes), successor to SDI (WN 17 May 91). It's all happening again. The failed test was of a puny ground-based defense against North Korea, which seems a lot less angry these days and doesn't have an ICBM anyway. A new test has been postponed to June, but why bother? George W wants a more comprehensive defense that would be ground, sea and space based. To fill out the picture, the backward- looking cold warriors on a panel chaired by Donald Rumsfeld, reminisced in a report released yesterday about space-power and high-frontier stuff that was big in the Ford administration. Rumsfeld reinforced his cold-war views at his Senate confirmation hearing yesterday, saying that China was more of a foe than "a strategic partner," that Taiwan was being threatened by a Chinese military build-up, that "the North Korean dictatorship was more interested in selling missiles than feeding its people" and that the ABM treaty is "ancient history." With a world view like that, no wonder he wants a Missile Defense. But that view isn't widely shared. Out of 20 key issues, the public ranks NMD 18. 2. BUSH SPOTLIGHT ON SCIENCE? THINK AGAIN. Informed sources report that President-Elect Bush, at the urging of a close Texas technologist, plans to split the Office of Science and Technology Policy and appoint two separate presidential advisors, one for science and one for technology. Two prominent university presidents have reportedly turned down offers for the science advisor slot. No wonder! This prompted former GOP Science Advisors D. Allan Bromley and Edward David, as well as APS President George Trilling, to caution the Bush-Cheney team that cleaving S&T would be disastrous policy. WN Readers can weigh in by writing Vice-President-Elect Cheney at the Bush/Cheney Transition Office, 1800 G Street, NW, Washington, DC 20006. 3. THE PRIVATIZATION OF ARMS CONTROL. The hostility to arms control measures within the Bush camp led CNN founder Ted Turner to team up with former senator Sam Nunn of Georgia to create a private foundation dedicated to reduction of the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction. Nunn brings enormous respect from both conservatives and liberals. Turner brings money -- lots of it. This suggests an interesting possibility: with the death of OTA in 1995, and now the prospect of an enfeebled OSTP, some enlightened mogul might consider privately funding an office that would provide science advice to the government. THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 21:06:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25375; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:02:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:02:54 -0800 Message-ID: <031a01c07d26$1380a0c0$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Solar electricity generating system Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:59:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CE3.00202160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"3X6dL.0.PC6.z5-Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CE3.00202160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not a bad idea for a Combination Solar Concentrator/Stirling Engine. http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2000/solar.htm Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CE3.00202160 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="News Release - Solar electricity generating system.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="News Release - Solar electricity generating system.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2000/solar.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2000/solar.htm Modified=E0D2A89E257DC0015B ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C07CE3.00202160-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 22:04:23 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA12914; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:01:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:01:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3A5FEF6F.F95BA720 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:02:23 -0700 From: Rich Murray X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jennigje Prenger , Adrienne Gehl , helena88@mindspring.com, Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Murray: sorry, Dennis Lee is famous con artist 1.12.01 References: <001501c07ce1$bded3860$e399fc9e jennigjeworld.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qY_po2.0.d93.6z-Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Murray: sorry, Dennis Lee is famous con artist 1.12.01

Hello Jennigje,   Sorry, Dennis Lee is a famous con artist.  Go to
www.google.com and search  "Dennis Lee", fraud  .  I just tried this, and
the first listing is   http://www.phact.org/e/z/leelee.htm , and there are many
more.  For those with technical training, you can search the archives for
Vortex-L eskimo.com  discussion group for cold fusion and free
energy research, which I have been a member of for 5 years.

http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/

If you search Google  for "pyramid schemes" and  "Multi-Level Marketing",
you will find a number of reasonable, informed sites that discuss the
severe, fundamental failings, including outright illegality, of all these
seductive business systems.

It would be very sound indeed to invest in modern wind power
businesses around the world.  From Google:

Latest Releases
... The World-watch Institute of USA only recently
hailed India as the ... been identified
for setting up wind power farms.
Bulk of the installations have ...
pib.nic.in/archieve/lreleng/lyr98/l0398/PIBR170398.html
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Blessings within the One,  Rich Murray  Room For All
1943 Otowi Road  Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103

Jennigje Prenger wrote:

Hello everyone You have heard about this from me before and here is our latest opportunity!!!Let's make it a go by supporting it.Please let Helena know you are responding to her through me. In Love and LightJenni_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Jennigje Prenger
2815 Don Quixote
Santa Fe  NM 87505
jennigje@earthlink.net
505-424-9796
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________   
Tired of High Energy Bills?   (revised 1-11-01)
What if You NEVER Had To Pay Another

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SIGN UP NOW, FOR FREE, FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF NEVER PAYING

ANOTHER ELECTRIC BILL AS LONG AS YOU LIVE!

02 January 2001

United Community Services of America (UCSA) and The International Tesla Electric Company (ITEC) have an energy technology that will help save the environment, reduce fossil fuel pollution and give you free power in your residence for the rest of your life. As a dealer I am in a position to offer to a limited number of people, a registration for the possibility of no-cost energy at your home absolutely FREE (we pay shipping, installation and ALL costs). After being registered, you will be in line for 26,000 kilowatts of free electricity every year, if and when we are successful with our program. We will attempt to accommodate everyone who registers, but this offer is strictly on a first come, first served basis.

Our plan is to put an electrical generator at your home that will be installed, maintained, and owned by our company (much like your meter is maintained and owned by your local electric utility). The excess electricity the generator supplies will be sold back to current electricity suppliers under the new Electricity Deregulation laws, thereby generating revenue for our company and enabling us to supply electric power to you at no cost. The generator will require NO outside source of energy such as fuel, and it will be quiet and friendly to both the atmosphere and your lungs (no exhaust).

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Our web site is www.ucsofa.com. There you will see a photo and video of our generator. You will also see our founder Dennis Lee, a review of our other alternative energy products and learn how to become a dealer for the company should you have the desire.

Dennis Lee has just announced that grass roots support is needed.  He said that he will begin manufacturing and shipping as soon as he has the support of 1.6 million people.  He feels that the "powers that be" will not interfere with a project in which this many people support.  Please let everyone know how much we need their help in bringing this project to the planet. He also said that the registration for the generator will cost $1,000. after he begins shipping. So get registered NOW while they are still FREE. I have a 2 1/2 hour video called" Itec 2,000" which is available for $25 to show to your friends who are not on the internet. It's about the new generator and other current and future products.

My requirement for you to receive this free registration is for you to send me a list of at least 20 people you would like to GIFT with this registration (with your name at the top). I will also need their street addresses at the proposed installation sites, mailing addresses if different, and phone numbers (plus email addresses and fax numbers if available). I will fill out the registrations and return them to you. You in turn will deliver/mail them to your people. Please give each of your people a copy of this letter so they can do the same for their friends. I have thousands of registrations to give away but I need your assistance in doing this ( addressing and stamping envelopes is a big help to me .)

This registration is only for private homes, rental residences with the owner’s permission, and churches. This is a win-win situation for residential and church energy consumers.

It is anticipated that each machine will generate 30 kilowatts per hour. It is expected that arrangements can be made with us if you consume more than the free 26,000- kilowatt allotment per year. Since your machine will also be feeding electricity to your current power company, you will still be able to keep your current electric company as a back-up source of electricity.

Sign up NOW! You have nothing to lose.  You will be helping to bring free electricity to the planet.  WE WANT A BETTER WORLD, NOT A NEW ONE!Using email please send your list of people to: helena88@mindspring.com , otherwise....Postal address: The Garson Co, 7 Avenida Vista Grande #115, Santa Fe, NM 87505

Fax 505-466-7887

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 22:12:08 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA16433; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:11:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 22:11:41 -0800 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010113005951.00a89560 pop3.atlantic.net> X-Sender: inet1547 pop3.atlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:18:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Michael T. Huffman" Subject: Re: Test In-Reply-To: <031901c07d24$92a119e0$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"JVcKC2.0.h04.T6_Nw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:49 AM 1/13/01, you wrote: >Checking out why the Korean Language thing comes up on >Ed Storms storms2 ix.netcom.com posts to >vortexl-l > >FJS I looked at some of his earlier messages, and the one from 1-7-2000 was set correctly, but after that, his character set is for Korean. I'm using Eudora 5 until I can get something else that doesn't have all the MAPI "features" built into them, and the text looks normal to me. It may be that if you are using Outlook Express or something that triggers the ActiveX component of Windows, then it is set to automatically get a language module anytime it thinks you need one. This is kind of funny actually. Microsoft has stated that it wants to be the operating system that is embedded into the control systems of all the homes and appliances of the world. Can you imagine what kind of world that would be? Someone could send you a trick e-mail and your toilet would all of a sudden start flushing, your car would run itself over to the garage to get the tires rotated, and delivery trucks full of elephants would show up at your door along with the invoice saying that you ordered them. You could find yourself elected as President of the United States. Anything could happen. I'm still slowly digging the weirdest stuff out of my machine. Some of it was put there recently and some of it was in there from when my Dad had the machine. It was evidently set to detect when the machine was on, but idle, dial up your service provider with the remote access protocol and then broadcast it's availability to a host machine as part of a wide area network of some kind. It's pretty incredible what can happen with these things, but they sure are fun to play with. ;) Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 12 23:51:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA10625; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:50:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 23:50:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010112083759.0095f800 postoffice.swbell.net> References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010107075917.022802e8 earthtech.org> <5.0.2.1.0.20010110201135.02208598 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010111074819.03aed7d0 earthtech.org> <4.2.0.58.20010112083759.0095f800 postoffice.swbell.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:50:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: What Ginger is Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"sfQmD3.0.xb2.NZ0Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charlie Ford wrote; >This type of violation is old news. Do not credit cook with the >idea. Ever since the invention of the swing where any child can >violate "Newtons third" by pumping his legs back and forth to make >the swing go higher... > Lets see someone get their swing to stay at the high point of the swing From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 00:11:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA14309; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:08:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:08:33 -0800 Message-ID: <20010113080830.25275.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 00:08:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"tmwM1.0.VV3.1q0Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > John Berry wrote: > > > So I am asking anyone on Vortex > > > who is confident of their skill in mathematics to do a > > > calculation of the problem. [snip] [I've also cut out lots of explanation from my presentation of the solution. I'll keep the "core" for reference, if needed.] > > Mathematical model: We will need three equations: > > > > 1) Newton's F = ma, written for an infinitessimal element of > water: > > > > rho_o ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = - @p/@x (1) > > > > where is the partial derivative operator; @^2/@t^2 is the > second > > partial derivative with respect to t. > > x = position coordinate along the tube > > t = time > > roh_o = mass density of the uncompressed fluid > (mass/volume) > > Xi = displacement of the fluid element located at x from > > its equilibrium position > > p = pressure at location x. > > > > 2) Equation of state (EOS): > > > > dp = sig (drho/rho_o) (2) > > > > where dp = the CHANGE in pressure from equilibrium. > > drho = the CHANGE in density from its equilibrium rho_o, > > when the fluid is compressed. > > sig = a constant acting like a spring constant. > > > > 3) A kinematic (geometric) equation that relates density change > > to fluid compression: > > > > drho/rho_o = - Xi/@x (3) > > > > Now we combine the three equations of the model. In this > > problem we can reduce them to a single partial differential > > equation (PDE): > > > > ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = (sig/rho_o) (@^2/@x^2)Xi (4) > > > > This is a wave equation in one dimension. > > In particular, it is the equation for an acoustic wave, > > where the propagation speed or sound speed cs is > > > > cs= sqrt(sig/rho_o) . (5) > > > > For water, rho_o = 1000 kg/m^3, sig is about 2e9 Pa = 2 GPa or > > about 20,000 bar, and cs is a bit over 1400 m/s. Since this > > is a linear PDE, the general solution is a sum > > of the allowable solutions. > > > > Additional mathematical manipulation yields relations germain to > > the suddenly stopped tube problem: > > > > dp = +/- sig (v/cs) (6) > > > > where v = Xi/@t is the velocity of the fluid element associated > > with the wave motion. The sign depends on the > > direction of wave propagation. > > > > and > > (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x > > = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 . (7) > > > > The left side of this eqn is kinetic energy/volume of the wave > > motion. The right side is the potential energy of compression per > > unit volume, written in two forms. > > > > Having obtained the mathematical solution, let us apply it to our > > particular problem and learn. Before the outlet valve was > suddenly > > closed, water was moving uniformly along the tube at some > velocity. > > Let us call it vo. When the valve closes, the water at the > outlet > > end stops abruptly, but not water farther upstream. How do we > > represent this with our solutions? We start with the uniformly > > flowing solution vo. We add the acoustic wave solution that > > propagates upstream, in the direction away from the valve. We > must > > give the wave an amplitude amplitude that makes the wave > displacement > > velocity v equal and opposite to the uniform flow, i.e. > > > > v = - vo (8) > > > > from the closing time onward. This makes the sum of the uniform > flow > > solution and the wave solution have zero velocity at the outlet > end > > after the valve is closed. Thus we have matched the problem posed > by > > John. > > > > Now, as the wave front propagates upstream, so does its > displacement > > velocity, which equals -vo. Behind the front the fluid velocity > is vo + v > > = vo - vo = 0. Thus, the wave front brings successive fluid > > elements to a stop, even while fluid upstream of the front is > still > > moving. When the front reaches the inlet end, all the fluid in > the > > tube has been brought to a stop. It took the time L/cs for the > wave > > front to propagate the length of the tube and stop all the fluid. > > > > The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just > the > > dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a > only a > > uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get > the > > pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): > > > > dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) > > > > > > Consider some examples. Let vo = 14 m/s (50.4 km/h). Then eq (9) > > gives dp = 2e7 Pa = 200 bar (3000 psi for gringos) for the > > pressure rise. If instead, vo = 28 m/s, then dp = 4e7 Pa > > 400 bar (6000 psi). > > > > When the fluid has been stopped, it has no kinetic energy. > > Eq (7), with v = -vo substituted in, shows that the potential > energy > > of the compressed fluid is just equal to (1/2) rho_o vo^2, the > > kinetic energy that the water had before the flow was stopped. > > Eq (1) > > from Newton and a frictionless fluid EOS give us conservation of > > energy in a physically simple way---initial kinetic energy became > > potential energy in compressed fluid. > > > > [snip] > > The potential energy stored in the compressed water is half the > > product of the pressure times the displacement. See the middle > term > > of my eq (7). Although the pressure is high, the displacement is > > small, so the potential energy is not outlandish. In fact, as the > > math shows, it just equals the lost kinetic energy of the > original > > uniform flow. This is not unusual. It is a common result for all > > problems of this kind. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > Thank you Michael for taking this seriously, I do appreciate it. > If you halved the inertia hence kinetic energy of the fluid while > keeping the other > variables the same you would have free energy. > If you had a device that did alter waters inertia would it's > compressibility density and speed of sound in the water change? Inertia is a property of mass and is directly proportional to it. Here mass is contained in the density, rho_0, which is mass per unit volume. Mass and compressibility are properties of the fluid. Mass is determined by the physics of the nucleus and deeper. Compressibility and average volume occupied by a molecule are determined by the physics of the atomic electrons. I'm not sure how you imagine changing one or both of these. However, in the end, you have a density and a compressibility. The three equations of the mathematical model still describe the behavior of the new fluid. All the other equations follow without change. The fluid still stops at the valve when it closes, and an accoustic wave propagates upstream. Its amplitude contintues to be the amplitude with which it was launched, which is exactly the amplitude that stops the original flow. When the wave front reaches the end of the tube, all the water is motionless, but compressed. If you change the density and/or compressibility, the calculated numbers change, but not their relations to each other, which are always given by the equations. > I do have a few problems, for one we are talking about energy, > there is no energy in your calculations as there is no volume. I left eq (7) as "energy per unit volume." One then just multiplies it by the volume. > How can you prove anything about the energy if it is not in your > calculation. This makes me not entirely trust them > I don't think it would be too hard to make this 3D, Just keep the > simplified wave calculations and such. Eq (7), (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 = (1/2) sig (drho/rho_o)^2 (7) [I added a third way to calculate the compressional energy here, where it is calculated from the change of density. The first way is the fluid equivalent of 1/2 force x displacement. The second way is the fluid equivalent of 1/2 (spring constant) x (displacement)^2 .] which states that the potential energy stored in the compressed fluid (right sides) equals the kinetic energy (left side), both per unit volume, is a result of Newton's F = ma (which is conservation of momentum) and our neglect of any energy dissipation by friction, etc. Here, as in all other pure mechanics problems in the absence of dissipation, conservation of momentum will always give you conservation of kinetic plus potential energy as a result. There is no need to assume it at the start, though to do so usually simplifies the steps of a mathematical derivation. I specifically did not do that, so you could not argue that I had interjected conservation of energy at the start. > Further imagine that you can decrease waters inertia hence kinetic > energy without any > other changes, The delay would be the same as long as the speed of > sound in water had not changed. I disagree. Yes, if you change the mass, you change the kinetic energy. But you also change the sound speed cs (eq 5), so the delay changes. If you reduce density, cs increases and the delay decreases. Also, if you change density, the relation between the pressure rise and velocity (eq 6) are changed, and this will adjust the potential energy per unit volume. > But there would be a difference, as the wave hits the water, the > water would more quickly > be slowed down, the first lead of the wave would hit just as fast, > but the kinetic energy > of the water effects the suddenness of the rise. > So if you have normal kinetic energy in the water a bit more water > is pumped into the pipe > because the leading edge of the wave is not strong enough. The wave doesn't "hit the water." The valve closes instantaneously. This stops the first layer of molecules. The next layer of molecules runs into the first, so the two layers come a bit closer together before the mutual repulsion stops the second layer molecules. The third layer molecules now run into the stoppped second layer molecules. And so on. The valve closes. This stops the water immediately adjacent, and the change of momentum of the water exerts a pressure on the valve surface. This is the start of the wave that travels upstream. The wave is the macroscopic description of those molecules pushing on one another; the macroscopic statement of this is the compressibility factor, sig. > As I can't see how the delay is related to the kinetic energy, > indeed it would seem that > almost no kinetic energy 90+% of the compression would take place > (other values remaining > relatively constant) if there was almost no kinetic energy. > And I can see how the kinetic energy is turned into compression and > it has nothing to do > with time delay but resisting the waves attempt to stop the water. Indeed, the kinetic energy of the initial flow has no effect on the speed of sound and, therefore, no effect on the time it takes the wave to propagate the length of the tube. > It smoothes out an otherwise instantaneous event. The wave front that is a solution to my eq (4) can be arbitrarily sharp. It does not smooth anything. If the valve closes instantaneously, the wave is infinitely sharp. The pressure rise is still as calculated. In real water, the wave cannot be sharper than the distance between molecules. It would take additional equation(s) of state to put this into my mathematical model. To a first level of approximation, this appears macroscopically as a kind of viscosity, called bulk viscosity, that is associated with compression, rather than with velocity shear like ordinary viscosity. Bulk viscosity smooths wave fronts slightly, turns some of the wave energy into heat and causes the wave amplitude to decrease as it propagates. > Obviously your calculation is not convincing. Mathematics is not just "the language of science," as is commonly stated. Mathematics is a system of logic. This is most important. My equations, from eq (4) onward, follow from mathematics. They are logical consequences of the first three equations, which are the mathematical model. I think the model I stated exactly describes the problem you posed. > Speed might be better to be a bit higher, but I just thought. > You showed that if you double the speed the pressure is doubled 14 > m/s 3000psi 28 m/s > 6000psi. Exclude my ignorance but is double the pressure 4x the > energy? Yes. Double the speed is 4x the kinetic energy, 2x the pressure and 4x the compressional potential energy. > If not that > proves my point because double the velocity requires 4x the energy. > > Lets try an unreasonable speed, still well below the speed of sound > in water, say 500mph and 250mph. > The length and diameter are arbitrary, 1 meter long and 1cm dia, > the volume is obvious, > the velocity of the wave is obvious. > Infinitely rigid pipe wall and perfect valves. > No need to study the sprayouts and reflections. Pipe volume = V = pi r^2 L = pi (.005 m)^2 (1 m) = 7.856e-5 m^3 = 78.56 cm^3 cs = sqrt(sig/rho_0) = sqrt[(2e9Pa)/(1000kg) = 1414 m/s For vo = 500 mile/hour = 222 m/s: Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V = .5(1000kg/m^3)(222m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) = 1936 joule Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) = (2e9Pa)[(222m/s)/1414m/s)] = 3.140e8 Pa (46.16e3 psi) For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (222m/s)/(1414m/s) = 0.1570(dimensionless) Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 (from eq 7) = .5(2e9Pa)(.1570)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) = 1936 joule The kinetic and compression energies are equal. For vo = 250 mile/hour = 111 m/s: Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V = .5(1000kg/m^3)(111m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) = 484 joule Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) = (2e9Pa)[(111m/s)/1414m/s)] = 1.570e8 Pa (23.08e3 psi) For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (111m/s)/(1414m/s) = 0.0785 (dimensionless) Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 = .5(2e9Pa)(.0785)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) = 484 joule ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 02:28:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA09090; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:26:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:26:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-10.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.10] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5FBE37.24D3289D ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:32:24 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pulling.....Re: Ph.D's learn't Bias References: <4.2.0.58.20010112220527.00a23130@postoffice.swbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LVCFw1.0.tD2.Br2Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Charles Ford wrote: > At 06:12 PM 1/12/01 +1300, you wrote: > > > You must be joking! What do you consider a "serious" response? It seems > > > to me that it is YOU who, by refusing to strive to understand even high > > > school freshman math, that is not serious. Without basic math, how can you > > > even have a serious discussion? > > > >That is so stupid, Of course you can. > >I'm just not very good with math, Math is a shortcut, it does not help you > >understand > >physics. Just estimates what you already know. > >It is also very useful and critical in some situations. > >If I thought math and my mind would meld I would have already learnt it. > > > > > > Whoooo hold on now..... > > Without math there is no physics.... without physics there is no > engineering, There is no psychology, There is no medicine and so on and > so on... It is not a shortcut or a tool it is the basic truth that > underlies everything > > I have had my problems with PHD's but usually I have found that the ones > that where competent in math where the ones that where able to rise up out > of the academic mud and apply there skills. But this does not only apply > to PHD's Math is for everybody. Math does not prove what you already know > but shows you the way to what you do not know. I could not exist as an > engineer without it math is based on knowledge you already have, it is a projection taking known data and can only give logical conclusions to what you already know. It is nothing more than a way to mix and apply known data, and though very useful that is all it will ever be. It actually doesn't tell you anything that was not able to be concluded from the data in. > > > For example. Einstein knew through conjecture and the experience of others > very much about the speed of light... Then wend about proving what he > knew through math. E=MC^2 was a correction to Newtons Kinetic > energy. Conversion of mass to energy was a discovery based on the math. It was a logical conclusion on known data bridged by math. The problem is that because math is merely a shortcut to actually containing all the variables in your head, it is often unclear where the bridge takes you. just like the gyro thing. They know that a gyro should have precessional force as it is a logical conclusion of other data, however they don't understand how the force actually is created, the math was a shortcut to verify the existence of something already known (precessional force) but as the math is only a numbers game they didn't really understand why the force came about. Just like E=MC^2 clearly means a lot about the universe, yet the equation does not actually tell us what those things are. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 03:26:02 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA17577; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:23:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:23:52 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:32:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, hank scudder From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ouhgQ1.0.ZI4.8h3Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:57 PM 1/12/1, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Hank, > > I m not making fluid transformers... some other posters have been >reporting poor current flow. > > I am aware of Hg being used as fluid conductor. > >On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote: > >> John >> Try Mercury(Hg). It will work fine. >> Hank >> Hank, This is about some old experiments. TO provide some historical background, below follow my vortex postings on the subject "Experiment report - Electrolytic primary" posted on or around Oct 3, 2000: - - - A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current. His data looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of electrolytes. However, I managed to produce a brief test of his hypothesis, even with the very low primary current that results from using low conductivity electrolyte conductors, by bumping up the frequency to about 1 MHz and using a ferrite flyback transformer core to couple the primary and secondary coils, both of which had a low turn count. The ferrite core used for the test had a cross sectional area of very roughly 1 cm^2, and consisted of two "C" sections, each about 4 cm to a side on the outside. The secondary was wrapped with about 10 turns of copper stranded test probe wire, which is insulated to about 10 kV. The primary was wrapped with 5 turns of test probe wire and 5 turns of 1/8" ID plastic tubing (from Eagle Hardware, now Lowe's) filled with salt water. The salt water was made by adding a couple tablespoons of salt to a 4 oz glass of warm water. There were still traces of magnesium sulfate in the plastic tubing from a prior experiment. The tubing length was about 2 feet. Salt water was siphoned into the tubing and then the tubing ends were closed by jamming #10 ground wire into the ends. The green plastic insulation just fit inside the plastic tubing and made a water tight seal with the plastic tubing. The #10 wire was stripped a couple inches in order to assure good electrical contact with the electrolyte. The resistance of the electrolyte tube was about 14 k ohms. The frequency was selected so as to get a good reliable and readable signal out of the secondary. The input was about 2 volts pk-pk, and was sin wave output from a function generator. There was a significant capacitive coupling between the primary and secondary, but the output voltage dropped by about 70 percent when the ground lead was removed, indicating a significant magnetic coupling. Unfortunately, the two primaries could not meaningfully be placed in series due to a very strong capacitive coupling between them. That approach, which I suggested earlier, would require use of high voltages and low frequency input, and thus high power and a bigger core than I have available. The resitance of the electrolytic primary was measured at 9.6 k ohms, but it was varying. It prior was measured at 14 k ohms, but still had some bubbles in it, which were cleared before the experiments began. In order to simulate the resistance of the electrolytic coil, a 50 k pot was set to 9.6 k and placed in series with the copper primary. The copper primary and the electrolytic primaries were energized separately at 1050 kHz. Both produced similar output. The electrolytic coil produced 228 mV out, the copper produced 196 mV out, which is equal output withing the range of accuracy of the experiment. The largest uncontrollable variance was due to the changing resistance of the electrolytic coil. This is a null result. At a range of 500 - 1000 kHz the hypothesis that electrolytic primaries do not induce a current in secondaries similar to that induced by metallic primaries is false. - - - - At 8:19 AM 10/13/0, Mitchell Jones wrote: >>A while back xplorer (Paul Anderson) on vortex noted that electrolytic >>primaries on transformers do not produce output on the secondaries, nor do >>they produce magnetic fields when energized using direct current. > >***{No surprise there. The initial surge of current in the primary, when >the switch is closed, will produce a brief and oppositely directed surge in >the secondary, but as soon as the current in the primary settles into a >steady state, the current in the secondary will cease. The reason: the flux >lines in the magnetic field produced by the primary are no longer in >motion, and, thus, cease to influence the motion of the electrons in the >secondary. (If a steady magnetic field could induce a current in a wire >that was not moving, we could use a permanent magnet to produce perpetual >motion.) --MJ}*** My impression was that Anderson was saying that 50 Hz AC applied to an electrolytic primary will produce no output current or potential on a secondary. I did not get the impression he was attempting to put DC through a transformer. > >His data >>looked like something might be in error, in that he indicated currents that >>were impossible to sustain at 50 Hz due to the low conductivity of >>electrolytes. > >***{Exactly. This was the weird part of his result. If classical electromag >is correct, a 50 Hz current in the primary should produce a current in the >secondary, regardless of whether it is a flow of positive ions in an >electrolyte, or a flow of negative electrons in copper wire. If it doesn't, >something odd is going on. --MJ}*** I think Anderson said or implied at one point that electrolytic secondaries generated normal expected output. It was only when used as a primary that he got the unexpected result from the electrolytic coil. Is suspect he did not compensate for or even measure the resistance of his electrolytic primary. If he is listening maybe he can interject. At 8:11 PM 9/23/0, xplorer wrote: >I tried to get water-filled tubing >(pure as well as saline) > to act as electromagnets and transformers. >I even tried using a water pump to circulate > charged water, but nothing happened. >I tried up to 5 amps of dc and ac current > to no avail. ( boiling the water, by the way) >It simply would not work - > no detectable em field whatsoever. >I had hoped it would, as I have applications... > >I think they failed due to the > large diameter tubing (5mm) > but perhaps not... > >The upshot is, water in a pipe just doesn't seem to > like magnetic fields. > At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer wrote: >I only tried 50 Hz ac, it may be there are fields at higher frequencies, > but I don't have the equipment for that at this time. >Perhaps a deceptive assumption, but I am guessing that without the ability > to get even a DC current to generate a magnetic field, the chances of > seeing em activity at higher freqs is rather remote. >If I get my signal generator built, I would like to try this again > at freqs up to 50 MHz. At 1:22 PM 9/24/0, xplorer wrote: > >The primary was low impedance - > ranging from 1 to 16 turns of 'aquarium tubing' > around 50 cm in diameter filled with mineral water. >The water began as untreated, then I salted it (NaCl), > testing it at various levels of salinity through > to saturation. > >The secondary was a standard solenoid coil > 330uH (copper wire) with & without ferrous core. >I was inside the water tubing primary. > >I could not get any magnetic effects either, > using a Nd magnet suspended, btw. > >I may have something wrong with the setup - > I would certainly like to hear someone else > replicate this. - - - - At 8:24 AM 10/13/0, Jones Beene wrote: >Can you try lower frequencies, especially around 20k, which is likely the >resonance point of the ferrite (if it came from a flyback) The output voltage attenuates as frequency drops, and there is nothing much out below around 50 kHz. I am only imputting about a volt rms, so with about 10 k resistance the input current is limited to only about 100 microamps, and that ignoring the inductance. My DMM is not accurate in that range. Also, I think the current through the electrolyte at that voltage is limited to that which gets through the capacitive interface between the copper and the electrolyte. Down at that low current you have to obtain a high dI/dt to get a measurable voltage, thus a large frequency is required. The magnetic coupling is not so good due to the small number of turns and the relatively long distance between primaries and secondaries. I could go the trouble to build a HF HV supply, and insulate the coils for HV, but I don't see any evidence to justify it, and I have a lot else to do of higher priority. I am now merely reporting what I did in order to save others the trouble. >- and also can you >measure any significant current? In other words, although you mentioned >capacitance coupling, have you really eliminated the possibility that you have >anything more than a transmitter (the lead to the electrolyte) and an antenna? Yes, I have fiddled around further to be sure that capacitive coupling is not a large part of the coupling beteen the primaries and the secondary. I rebuit my transformer in order to make sure. I made a new longer 16 turn liquid primary from thinner more flexible Tygon tubing. I wrapped it with a 16 turn copper primary. I used lye instead of salt water and achieved a 10 K ohm resistance for the new longer liquid secondary. I made an all new secondary by wrapping the second "C" core with two layers of rough twine to achieve a layer with a low dielectric constant, and then wrapped that with 16 turns of insulated copper. The purpose of the new secondary "C" was to break the strong capacitive coupling between the primaries and the secondary. There is still some, but it is reduced. I discovered that at the 0.5 to 1 MHz range used the ferrite core is essentially a conductor - by accidentally touching the power lead to the primary core. The results were better with the new set-up, but still unclear when tests were attempted with the two primaries placed in series - due to the strong capacitive coupling between the two primary coils, which are wrapped one on top of the other. Energizing each of the two primary coils at separate times, with the copper coil in series with a 10 k resistor, still clearly produced similar output. There is no sign of anomalous behaviour. Keep in mind that the primary and secondary coils axes are parallel, and located on opposite "C's" of the core. The two C's are pushed togeher to make a complete "O" core. When I break apart the two ferrite C's the signal drops fast. Most important, is that when I disconnect the GROUND to the primary coil, be it the electrolytic or the copper primary, the signal then drops to nearly nothing. If the primary were acting as an antenna, then the primary ground would be not needed to propigate the signal. A current has to go through the entire primary in order to get a significant output voltage, so that pretty much guarantees that magnetic coupling is the source of the secondary voltage. Here are some quantatative results: 1050 kHz 525 kHz V_in V_out V_in V_out 1.30 1.02 1.26 0.360 1.29 0.920 1.26 0.380 To further nail down the equivalence of the effect, and to eliminate doubt as to the current through each of the primaries, a 3rd C core was prepareed with 15 turns of copper. This third C core was placed in series with the electrolytic coil an the second C core. These were individually and manually mated to the first C core, whcih contained the isolated secondary. The was some minor variation in the output numbers depending on how hard the cores were pressed, how well they aligned etc. but not more than about 5 percent fluctuation fromthe above figures. So, to a moderately high degree of accuracy, about 5 percent, it appears the magnetic fields produced are the same. > >I say this because the voltage output of the secondary is about what you would >expect from a closely placed antenna, and the ferrite probably doesn't couple >well above 40k hz anyway. Using a coax for the lead could eliminate this >possibility, or if you find a significant current transfer that would be >definitive. Actually, coax coils don't provide full or even adequate shielding in that if they are open ended on one end they act as antennas themselves and actually produce current, and if shorted, they kill the output potential. > >Did you try using DC and a small compass to see if you get any magnetic field >at all? Yes. Here I used the original electrolytic primary to wrap 5 turns on a cardboard tube. The inner diameter was 4.2 cm, and the coil length was 5.5 cm. A control coil of the same dimensions was wound with 5 turns of copper wire. These coils were placed to either side of a compas made from two magnets self-clamping themselves to a 32 cm length of fine cotton thread which was supended so as to position the magnets between the mouths of the two axially aligned coils. The coils were positioned so as to be at right angles to the ambient field (which I suspect is higher than the earth's due to some powerful magnets I have in the vicinity.) The magnets quickly pointed approximately toward magnetic north, which here is to the northeast, so I suspect the local field is not extremely strong compared tot he earth's. The magnets used were circular prisms, 12 mm diameter and 6 mm thick. They are about 35 Mgo I think, and are from Arbor Scientific. A regulated DC power supply was used, and the voltage applied was 22.61 volts, the current 3.12 mA, showing a total effective resistance of 7.2 k ohms. The coils are maintained in series throughout all the data gathering so as to maintain a constant current through both. A very small deflection was observed when the two coils were orineted so as to have their magnetic fields reinforce, forming a kind of Helmholz coil or long continuous solenoid around the magnets. Now for the unfortunately not very quantitative part. The magnets exhibited a typical torsion pendulum frequency of about 1 second, and were nearly impossible to totally stop oscillating or swinging, but the natural normal oscillations were small. With the current in the two coils reinforcing, and applied (manually) only during a reinforcing phase of the torsion swing, the magnets were made to oscillate to a full 90 deg. position in (about) 17 oscillations. With the aligned so as to oppose, a small amount of somewhat random looking gyration could be achived, but this appeared to be do more to the 2D pendulum motion of the magnets and varying proximity to the two coils. Within the accuracy of the experiment, it appeared the two fields cancelled. The electrolytic coil was placed aside, using only the copper coil, and it took 45 to 50 oscillations to achieve a 90 deg. oscillation. (This is a very subjective test.) Then, the copper coil replaced the electrolytic coil and it took from 42 to 48 times to achieve a 90 deg. oscillation. Again, this is a null result. The hypothesis that the electrolyte coils produce no magnetic field is further positively denied. I don't have any more time or space for this work, so am concluding my efforts. - - - End copies of postings Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 04:26:24 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA28304; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:25:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:25:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp2.ihug.co.nz: Host 203-173-205-10.akl.ihugultra.co.nz [203.173.205.10] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3A5FDA2C.42FD2E74 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:31:40 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device References: <20010113080830.25275.qmail web2103.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6VxDD3.0.5w6.2b4Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Schaffer wrote: > John Berry wrote: > > Michael Schaffer wrote: > > > John Berry wrote: > > > > So I am asking anyone on Vortex > > > > who is confident of their skill in mathematics to do a > > > > calculation of the problem. > > [snip] > [I've also cut out lots of explanation from my presentation of the > solution. I'll keep the "core" for reference, if needed.] > > > > Mathematical model: We will need three equations: > > > > > > 1) Newton's F = ma, written for an infinitessimal element of > > water: > > > > > > rho_o ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = - @p/@x (1) > > > > > > where is the partial derivative operator; @^2/@t^2 is the > > second > > > partial derivative with respect to t. > > > x = position coordinate along the tube > > > t = time > > > roh_o = mass density of the uncompressed fluid > > (mass/volume) > > > Xi = displacement of the fluid element located at x from > > > its equilibrium position > > > p = pressure at location x. > > > > > > 2) Equation of state (EOS): > > > > > > dp = sig (drho/rho_o) (2) > > > > > > where dp = the CHANGE in pressure from equilibrium. > > > drho = the CHANGE in density from its equilibrium rho_o, > > > when the fluid is compressed. > > > sig = a constant acting like a spring constant. > > > > > > 3) A kinematic (geometric) equation that relates density change > > > to fluid compression: > > > > > > drho/rho_o = - Xi/@x (3) > > > > > > Now we combine the three equations of the model. In this > > > problem we can reduce them to a single partial differential > > > equation (PDE): > > > > > > ( ^2/@t^2)Xi = (sig/rho_o) (@^2/@x^2)Xi (4) > > > > > > This is a wave equation in one dimension. > > > In particular, it is the equation for an acoustic wave, > > > where the propagation speed or sound speed cs is > > > > > > cs= sqrt(sig/rho_o) . (5) > > > > > > For water, rho_o = 1000 kg/m^3, sig is about 2e9 Pa = 2 GPa or > > > about 20,000 bar, and cs is a bit over 1400 m/s. Since this > > > is a linear PDE, the general solution is a sum > > > of the allowable solutions. > > > > > > Additional mathematical manipulation yields relations germain to > > > the suddenly stopped tube problem: > > > > > > dp = +/- sig (v/cs) (6) > > > > > > where v = Xi/@t is the velocity of the fluid element associated > > > with the wave motion. The sign depends on the > > > direction of wave propagation. > > > > > > and > > > (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x > > > = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 . (7) > > > > > > The left side of this eqn is kinetic energy/volume of the wave > > > motion. The right side is the potential energy of compression per > > > unit volume, written in two forms. > > > > > > Having obtained the mathematical solution, let us apply it to our > > > particular problem and learn. Before the outlet valve was > > suddenly > > > closed, water was moving uniformly along the tube at some > > velocity. > > > Let us call it vo. When the valve closes, the water at the > > outlet > > > end stops abruptly, but not water farther upstream. How do we > > > represent this with our solutions? We start with the uniformly > > > flowing solution vo. We add the acoustic wave solution that > > > propagates upstream, in the direction away from the valve. We > > must > > > give the wave an amplitude amplitude that makes the wave > > displacement > > > velocity v equal and opposite to the uniform flow, i.e. > > > > > > v = - vo (8) > > > > > > from the closing time onward. This makes the sum of the uniform > > flow > > > solution and the wave solution have zero velocity at the outlet > > end > > > after the valve is closed. Thus we have matched the problem posed > > by > > > John. > > > > > > Now, as the wave front propagates upstream, so does its > > displacement > > > velocity, which equals -vo. Behind the front the fluid velocity > > is vo + v > > > = vo - vo = 0. Thus, the wave front brings successive fluid > > > elements to a stop, even while fluid upstream of the front is > > still > > > moving. When the front reaches the inlet end, all the fluid in > > the > > > tube has been brought to a stop. It took the time L/cs for the > > wave > > > front to propagate the length of the tube and stop all the fluid. > > > > > > The pressure rise in the stopped fluid behind the front is just > > the > > > dp of the wave, because the uniformly flowing fluid also had a > > only a > > > uniform pressure in the absence of gravity and friction. We get > > the > > > pressure rise from eqs (6) and (8): > > > > > > dp = + sig (vo/cs) (9) > > > > > > > > > Consider some examples. Let vo = 14 m/s (50.4 km/h). Then eq (9) > > > gives dp = 2e7 Pa = 200 bar (3000 psi for gringos) for the > > > pressure rise. If instead, vo = 28 m/s, then dp = 4e7 Pa > > > 400 bar (6000 psi). > > > > > > When the fluid has been stopped, it has no kinetic energy. > > > Eq (7), with v = -vo substituted in, shows that the potential > > energy > > > of the compressed fluid is just equal to (1/2) rho_o vo^2, the > > > kinetic energy that the water had before the flow was stopped. > > > Eq (1) > > > from Newton and a frictionless fluid EOS give us conservation of > > > energy in a physically simple way---initial kinetic energy became > > > potential energy in compressed fluid. > > > > > > [snip] > > > The potential energy stored in the compressed water is half the > > > product of the pressure times the displacement. See the middle > > term > > > of my eq (7). Although the pressure is high, the displacement is > > > small, so the potential energy is not outlandish. In fact, as the > > > math shows, it just equals the lost kinetic energy of the > > original > > > uniform flow. This is not unusual. It is a common result for all > > > problems of this kind. > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > Thank you Michael for taking this seriously, I do appreciate it. > > If you halved the inertia hence kinetic energy of the fluid while > > keeping the other > > variables the same you would have free energy. > > If you had a device that did alter waters inertia would it's > > compressibility density and speed of sound in the water change? > > Inertia is a property of mass yes > and is directly proportional to it. Of course, the reason I said inertia was because it was the property of mass we are concerned with, it's gravitational mass might remain unchanged, though you probably don't accept that as possible, it's not impossible. And I don't care how you decide the inertial mass changes, just suppose it does. > > Here mass is contained in the density, rho_0, Of course, density is the gravitational weight per volume. > which is mass per unit > volume. Mass and compressibility are properties of the fluid. Of course > Mass is > determined by the physics of the nucleus and deeper. Compressibility > and average volume occupied by a molecule are determined by the > physics of the atomic electrons. The point would seem to be that compressibility and inertial mass are independent of each other. > I'm not sure how you imagine > changing one or both of these. However, in the end, you have a > density and a compressibility. The three equations of the > mathematical model still describe the behavior of the new fluid. All > the other equations follow without change. The fluid still stops at > the valve when it closes yes > , and an accoustic wave propagates upstream. yes > > Its amplitude contintues to be the amplitude with which it was > launched yes > , which is exactly the amplitude that stops the original > flow. yes > When the wave front reaches the end of the tube, all the water > is motionless, but compressed. Yes, and to the same amount as before, containing the same energy, yet you had a fluid with less inertial mass and hence kinetic energy. > If you change the density and/or > compressibility, the calculated numbers change, but not their > relations to each other, which are always given by the equations. If you change the density by decreasing mass of the water, yet compression stays the same the delay would remain the same, the energy contained in that level of compression would be the same. > > > > I do have a few problems, for one we are talking about energy, > > there is no energy in your calculations as there is no volume. > > I left eq (7) as "energy per unit volume." One then just multiplies > it by the volume. > > > How can you prove anything about the energy if it is not in your > > calculation. This makes me not entirely trust them > > I don't think it would be too hard to make this 3D, Just keep the > > simplified wave calculations and such. > > Eq (7), > > (1/2) rho_o v^2 = (1/2) dp Xi/@x > = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 > = (1/2) sig (drho/rho_o)^2 (7) > > [I added a third way to calculate the compressional energy here, > where it is calculated from the change of density. The first way is > the fluid equivalent of 1/2 force x displacement. The second way is > the fluid equivalent of 1/2 (spring constant) x (displacement)^2 .] > > which states that the potential energy stored in the compressed fluid > (right sides) equals the kinetic energy (left side), both per unit > volume, is a result of Newton's F = ma (which is conservation of > momentum) and our neglect of any energy dissipation by friction, etc. > Here, as in all other pure mechanics problems in the absence of > dissipation, conservation of momentum will always give you > conservation of kinetic plus potential energy as a result. There is > no need to assume it at the start, though to do so usually simplifies > the steps of a mathematical derivation. I specifically did not do > that, so you could not argue that I had interjected conservation of > energy at the start. > > > Further imagine that you can decrease waters inertia hence kinetic > > energy without any > > other changes, The delay would be the same as long as the speed of > > sound in water had not changed. > > I disagree. Yes, if you change the mass, you change the kinetic > energy. But you also change the sound speed cs (eq 5), so the delay > changes. If you reduce density, cs increases and the delay decreases. > Also, if you change density, the relation between the pressure rise > and velocity (eq 6) are changed, and this will adjust the potential > energy per unit volume. > > > But there would be a difference, as the wave hits the water, the > > water would more quickly > > be slowed down, the first lead of the wave would hit just as fast, > > but the kinetic energy > > of the water effects the suddenness of the rise. > > So if you have normal kinetic energy in the water a bit more water > > is pumped into the pipe > > because the leading edge of the wave is not strong enough. > > The wave doesn't "hit the water." The valve closes instantaneously. > This stops the first layer of molecules. The next layer of molecules > runs into the first, The wave of kinetic energy and water are traveling towards each other, I don't care what you decide to call it. > so the two layers come a bit closer together > before the mutual repulsion stops the second layer molecules. The > third layer molecules now run into the stoppped second layer > molecules. And so on. The valve closes. This stops the water > immediately adjacent, and the change of momentum of the water exerts > a pressure on the valve surface. This is the start of the wave that > travels upstream. The wave is the macroscopic description of those > molecules pushing on one another; the macroscopic statement of this > is the compressibility factor, sig. > > > As I can't see how the delay is related to the kinetic energy, > > indeed it would seem that > > almost no kinetic energy 90+% of the compression would take place > > (other values remaining > > relatively constant) if there was almost no kinetic energy. > > And I can see how the kinetic energy is turned into compression and > > it has nothing to do > > with time delay but resisting the waves attempt to stop the water. > > Indeed, the kinetic energy of the initial flow has no effect on the > speed of sound and, therefore, no effect on the time it takes the > wave to propagate the length of the tube. Really? your saying that? if you had less inertial mass it would decrease the kinetic energy, yet the delay stays the same, Of course you are now saying that compressibility and inertial mass are directly related. If they are that argument of mine fails. > > > > It smoothes out an otherwise instantaneous event. > > The wave front that is a solution to my eq (4) can be arbitrarily > sharp. It does not smooth anything. You are wrong, as a water particle and the wave front collide the particle gives up it's kinetic energy, it does not give it up instantly as water is compressible, it compresses the water a bit more, delaying the sharp rise of the wave. The wave does bring the water to a stop, but as it has kinetic energy and the water making up the wave front is able to be further compressed the wave is made less sharp and the kinetic energy of the water is given up in this compression. > If the valve closes > instantaneously, the wave is infinitely sharp. It starts that way, but matter does not instantaneously give up it's momentum, and the water trying to make it give up it's momentum is compressed in the process. > The pressure rise is > still as calculated. In real water, the wave cannot be sharper than > the distance between molecules. It would take additional equation(s) > of state to put this into my mathematical model. To a first level of > approximation, this appears macroscopically as a kind of viscosity, > called bulk viscosity, that is associated with compression, rather > than with velocity shear like ordinary viscosity. Bulk viscosity > smooths wave fronts slightly, turns some of the wave energy into heat > and causes the wave amplitude to decrease as it propagates. > > > Obviously your calculation is not convincing. > > Mathematics is not just "the language of science," as is commonly > stated. Mathematics is a system of logic. Logic is wonderful, yet like math is falls down when relied upon too much, as it depends on the knowledge of the person. If they have gaps in knowledge or misconceptions, you can draw incorrect conclusions. > This is most important. My > equations, from eq (4) onward, follow from mathematics. They are > logical consequences of the first three equations, which are the > mathematical model. I think the model I stated exactly describes the > problem you posed. > > > Speed might be better to be a bit higher, but I just thought. > > You showed that if you double the speed the pressure is doubled 14 > > m/s 3000psi 28 m/s > > 6000psi. Exclude my ignorance but is double the pressure 4x the > > energy? > > Yes. Double the speed is 4x the kinetic energy, 2x the pressure and > 4x the compressional potential energy. > > > If not that > > proves my point because double the velocity requires 4x the energy. > > > > Lets try an unreasonable speed, still well below the speed of sound > > in water, say 500mph and 250mph. > > The length and diameter are arbitrary, 1 meter long and 1cm dia, > > the volume is obvious, > > the velocity of the wave is obvious. > > Infinitely rigid pipe wall and perfect valves. > > No need to study the sprayouts and reflections. > > Pipe volume = V = pi r^2 L = pi (.005 m)^2 (1 m) > = 7.856e-5 m^3 = 78.56 cm^3 > > cs = sqrt(sig/rho_0) = sqrt[(2e9Pa)/(1000kg) = 1414 m/s > > For vo = 500 mile/hour = 222 m/s: > > Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V > = .5(1000kg/m^3)(222m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > = 1936 joule > > Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) > = (2e9Pa)[(222m/s)/1414m/s)] > = 3.140e8 Pa (46.16e3 psi) > > For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (222m/s)/(1414m/s) > = 0.1570(dimensionless) > > Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 (from eq 7) > = .5(2e9Pa)(.1570)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > = 1936 joule > > The kinetic and compression energies are equal. > > For vo = 250 mile/hour = 111 m/s: > > Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V > = .5(1000kg/m^3)(111m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > = 484 joule > > Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) > = (2e9Pa)[(111m/s)/1414m/s)] > = 1.570e8 Pa (23.08e3 psi) > > For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (111m/s)/(1414m/s) > = 0.0785 (dimensionless) > > Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 > = .5(2e9Pa)(.0785)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > = 484 joule Your equation does not deal with where the kinetic energy in the water goes, you do not have it add any energy to the compression, you just assume the energy you project at the end has this kinetic energy contained. You stated above that your calculation could have an instantaneously sharp wave, this ignores the kinetic energy of the water. Now do you hold that density and compressibility are not independent? Lets imagine a gas of electrons in a vacuum, the speed of sound (if you call it that) is c. This will have to be at a pressure, might as well be seal level. Now set this gas in motion down a pipe just like with the water, then give them a barrier they can't pass through (and we will ignore quantum physics here as they would just jump over the barrier ;) A wave travel at c towards the input, still the input of the pipe does not yet know. This creates a compression of the gas, which you would argue the energy contained therein would equal the initial kinetic energy (in a perfect world) of the electrons which are all stationary now. Ok, now lets change the electron gas to proton gas, or if you like "New Super Looong Lasting Muon Gas tm.". Now the compressibility is unchanged as they still only have the same spin as the electron gas, but the inertial energy is much greater. The speed of sound is still limited to c. The same length pipe and the same volume at same density and number of charges are all the same, the speed of the charges and the speed of sound still c, the delay time is the same. So the kinetic energy in is much more as the inertial mass is much greater. Yet as everything else is the same, the energy stored in the compression of the charges is the same. As the same number of charges entered the pipe at the same velocity, and the wave still propagates at the same velocity and the energy contained in compression of the charges remains the same. This destroys your work to show the idea is wrong, not by mathematics but by further thought experiment. Which is another point, math can be deceptive, and you can get along without it and find the truth without it. Unless you say that the energy contained in the compression of the proton gas to the same pressure is 1836 greater because it's inertial mass is 1836 times more? but if so you are going to have to prove how it would apply 1836 x the energy to a projectile which brings it's pressure back to sea level. If anything I would expect the extra inertial mass to absorb more of the energy as the gas expands, imparting less energy to the projectile. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 09:05:20 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA31890; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:59:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3A607BAC.53992295 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:00:45 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010112142445.00b0e930@pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F645D.A2D874FA@pacbell.net> <3A5FA5C6.2AE1A68C@ix.netcom.com> <026901c07d0f$3fc60f60$91b4bfa8@fjsparber> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XMWOC.0.Co7.Yb8Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry about that. I had my character set on a Korean font that comes up on my screen as a readable normal font. I did not realize this would affect someone else. Ed Frederick Sparber wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Edmund Storms > To: > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic > > How come Every Time I click on to a vortex message from Ed Storms it > opens a window telling that I need to download a 2.2 Mega Korean > Language Translation. :-) > > Regards, frederick > > > This process is called fractofusion and a large literature describes the process. > > The action is not cold fusion, but high voltage induced fusion of a conventional > > kind. > > > > Ed Storms > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 09:36:38 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA10305; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:29:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:29:24 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:40:54 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Powering IT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <49903450.20010113104054 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Resent-Message-ID: <"vF8Lv3.0.xW2.p19Ow" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With the general consensus among those willing to guess that IT is possibly a gyroscopically stabilized unicycle type vehicle, I would further add my guess that it is flywheel powered. Several years ago Discover magazine ran an article about a company funded by Kevin Costner's venture capital arm that was developing very high tech flywheels with the hope of powering cars. The car problem has apparently proved insurmountable, but it would be ideal for IT. Plus, one of the hints about IT indicates "the technology has been available for about 5 years". It is the flywheel powering device. You read it here first. :-) --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 11:47:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA21669; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:43:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:43:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Physics without math? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010112220527.00a23130 postoffice.swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FsyX81.0.VI5.v_AOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, Charles Ford wrote: > Without math there is no physics.... without physics there is no > engineering, There is no psychology, There is no medicine and so on and > so on... It is not a shortcut or a tool it is the basic truth that > underlies everything Not if by "math," you mean something like "symbological reasoning". Math is a map, not the territory. You can learn all sorts of laws about the physical world without having the concepts of "multiply" or "add" or even "number". Large and small and speed and position are observed concepts, and they are not mathematical concepts unless we assign numbers to them. Talking about the world is not necessarily an act of "doing math." For example, Netwon's Laws are usually discussed in mathematical terms, but we can also discuss them with little kids who have no math training at all: PUSHING ON SOMETHING CAUSES IT TO MOVE FASTER OR SLOWER. Much of physics is something that humans can experience directly. We see what a dog sees, and the main difference is that we have concepts like "faster" and "slower". Math is about symbols, while "fast/slow" are concepts for what we see occurring in the real world. Physics is conveniently described by math, but it is not "made" of math unless we declare this sentence to be purely mathematical: PUSHING ON SOMETHING CAUSES IT TO MOVE FASTER, SLOWER, OR TO DEFLECT ITS MOTION. My avocation is to describe physics verbally, without using any math at all, so that little kids have a chance of understanding it: http://www.amasci.com/amateur/answers1.html More about intuition versus math: http://www.amasci.com/amateur/physerm1.html > I have had my problems with PHD's but usually I have found that the ones > that where competent in math where the ones that where able to rise up out > of the academic mud and apply there skills. The true masters of physics seem to first make breakthroughs, and then later come up with rigorous descrptions. Math is a powerful tool, but as with all tools it holds problems. "When you hold a hammer, all problems look like a nail to be pounded." Screwing around with math does not necessarily lead to quantum leaps in understanding. (Falling asleep while working on a problem seems to work equally well!) > For example. Einstein knew through conjecture and the experience of others > very much about the speed of light... Then wend about proving what he > knew through math. That's not how I understand it. Einstein's creativity was based on "pure thought"; it was an astounding "conjuring trick" and the math came later once the real work had been done. Here's a good CP Snow Quote below. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com http://www.amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ...Einstein, twenty-six years old, only three years away from crude privation, still a patent examiner, published in the Annalen der Physik in 1905 five papers on entirely different subjects. Three of them were among the greatest in the history of physics. One, very simple, gave the quantum explanation of the photoelectric effect--it was this work for which, sixteen years later he was awarded the Nobel prize. Another dealt with the phenomenon of Brownian motion, the apparently erratic movement of tiny particles suspended in a liquid: Einstein showed that these movements satisfied a clear statistical law. This was like a conjuring trick, easy when explained: before it, decent scientists could still doubt the concrete existence of atoms and molecules: this paper was as near direct proof of their concreteness as a theoretician could give. The third paper was the special theory of relativity, which quietly amalgamated space, time and matter into one fundamental unity. This last paper contains no references and quotes no authority. All of them are written in a style unlike any other theoretical physicist's. They contain very little mathematics. There is a good deal of verbal commentary. The conclusions, the bizarre conclusions, emerge as though with the greatest of ease: the reasoning is unbreakable. It looks as though he had reached the conclusions by pure thought, unaided, without listening to the opinions of others. To a surprisingly large extent, that is precisely what he had done. It is pretty safe to say that, so long as physics lasts, no one will again hack out three major breakthroughs in one year. C.P. Snow, Variety of Men From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 12:48:29 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA06437; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:41:52 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:47:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Schnurer , Vortex Subject: Dean.....Vacuum IT uniscooter? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HQsvD3.0.Qa1.GsBOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Dean Kamen IT: If all holds true to earlier information to IT is a stand alone motor or device which is a Stirling cycle or some other type of close or semi closed device. This "motor" works on ambient thermal conditions. Further it does not use fuels as we describe them. This may or may not be configured to run a home. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 00:32:39 -0800 From: Akira Kawasaki Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: Vortex Subject: IT uniscooter? Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:11:22 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Jan. 12, 2,000 Vortex, Matt Drudge's website has a drawing of a single tire powered (presumably), handlebarred scooter with the driver standing astride the tire on a platform type 'stirrup'. Looks like the technology developed for the climbing, reaching wheelchair was miniaturized and adapted to an uni-scooter, personal transportation vehicle. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 13:42:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26509; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:41:01 -0800 X-Sender: hheffner mtaonline.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:49:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"IyhR61.0.5U6.jjCOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just did a very approximate quick check on conductivity of brine using an ohmmeter. Let lots of iodized morton salt sit in a glass of water overnight to obtain a saturated brine solution. Taped two probes together so as to make a constant separation. Measured resistance at about 30 kohms in saturated brine. Added water and resistance dropped to about 15 kohms at 3 times dilution and raised back up to about 20 kohms at about 4 times dilution. All somewhat subjective, but it appears that if you take saturated brine and add double its volume in water you will have somewhere near the best conductivity at about room temperature. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 13:57:04 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA30172; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:53:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:59:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KIoGg.0.DN7.svCOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear H snd Vo., If you use a digital voltmeter to measure DC resistance you will ALWAYS get a wrong measure. If you use analog you will too... only less so. One way to HELP... but still not right is to hold the two probes separated with say wood dowel or pencil and STIR with vigor as you measure.... clean the probes, reverse polarity... and STIR... do 10 reversals and average the results. On Sat, 13 Jan 2001, Horace Heffner wrote: > Just did a very approximate quick check on conductivity of brine using an > ohmmeter. Let lots of iodized morton salt sit in a glass of water > overnight to obtain a saturated brine solution. Taped two probes together > so as to make a constant separation. Measured resistance at about 30 kohms > in saturated brine. Added water and resistance dropped to about 15 kohms at > 3 times dilution and raised back up to about 20 kohms at about 4 times > dilution. All somewhat subjective, but it appears that if you take > saturated brine and add double its volume in water you will have somewhere > near the best conductivity at about room temperature. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:11:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01002; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:07:48 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010113170828.007b0c70 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:08:28 -0500 To: Lynn Kurtz , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Powering IT In-Reply-To: <49903450.20010113104054 imap2.asu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"56AYB3.0.aF.p6DOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn Kurtz wrote: >With the general consensus among those willing to guess that IT is >possibly a gyroscopically stabilized unicycle type vehicle, I would >further add my guess that it is flywheel powered. Would the vehicle be large enough? I think the problem with flywheel power systems is that they are heavy and bulky, even compared to batteries. The only small, portable conventional power sources I know of which are suitable for a scooter or bicycle are: 1. Batteries - heavy, limited range. 2. Gasoline motors - noisy and polluting. 3. New generation liquid fuel cells - ideal, I think. We have discussed them here from time to time. One of them was installed on a bicycle giving it a 70 mile range. If this device incorporates unusual power, it might well be a fuel cell. One versatile cell can use methanol, ethonal, "automobile windscreen washer fluid" and other chemicals, but it works best with NaBH4. See: http://www.fuelcellstore.com/ectmf_instructions.htm - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:17:52 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02624; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:14:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:14:08 -0800 Message-ID: <03bc01c07db6$224d8740$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Running IT/Ginger on Liquid Air? Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:11:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07D73.0ABC5680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"rlm_m.0.we.lCDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07D73.0ABC5680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Liquid Air or N2 has a critical temperature of 227 Deg R, and critical pressure of ~500 psi. It takes about 90 btu/lb to evaporate it. http://ranier.oact.hq.nasa.gov/Sensors_page/Cryo/CryoPT/CryoPTHist.html Nice way to run a Stirling engine using the LN2 as the cold end and ambient air as the hot end. I think John S. called it right. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07D73.0ABC5680 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Pulse Tube Cryogenic Cooler History NASA Space Instrument and Sensing Technology.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Pulse Tube Cryogenic Cooler History NASA Space Instrument and Sensing Technology.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://ranier.oact.hq.nasa.gov/Sensors_page/Cryo/CryoPT/CryoPTHist.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://ranier.oact.hq.nasa.gov/Sensors_page/Cryo/CryoPT/CryoPTHist.html Modified=604F7702B57DC0011B ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C07D73.0ABC5680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:18:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA02318; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:12:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:12:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010113171338.007b31c0 pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:13:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Schnurer , Vortex From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Dean.....Vacuum IT uniscooter? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ziuyM2.0.3a.aBDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > If all holds true to earlier information to IT is a stand >alone motor or device which is a Stirling cycle or some other >type of close or semi closed device. > > This "motor" works on ambient thermal conditions. Further it does >not use fuels as we describe them. I do not think this would be suitable for transportation applications, particularly small vehicles. Because these machines tap small differences in ambient temperature, the heat sink has to be huge, like the collection area for solar power. The only potentially practical Stirling cycle application I know of is OTEC -- (ocean thermo electricity?) which taps the temperature gradient at different layers of the ocean. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:25:37 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA04668; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:21:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:21:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <49903450.20010113104054 imap2.asu.edu> References: <49903450.20010113104054 imap2.asu.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:21:03 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Powering IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"7qj692.0.n81.TJDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Lynn - Let's see, if I don't hit a pothole and go flying into a concrete wall or get flattened by a taxi, I could at least have my legs blown off by a 200,000 RPM flywheel exploding like a stick of dynamite - all while listening to MP3's on a Bose personal mobile stereo system. Doncha love technology? This is going to revolutionize the way we live (we'll need Kamen's wheelchair after our legs are gone) and we'll redesign our cities around it (emergency medical stations on every block). Honk-uh honk-uh! . It's depressing that the guess of a scooter is probably right. At least with an ornithopter, if it's your time to go, you go all the way! And with telepresence, the typical risk is that someone hacks your bot and forces it to listen to an infomercial about discounted Viagra or selling phonecards or something. Ouch! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >With the general consensus among those willing to guess that IT is >possibly a gyroscopically stabilized unicycle type vehicle, I would >further add my guess that it is flywheel powered. > >Several years ago Discover magazine ran an article about a company >funded by Kevin Costner's venture capital arm that was developing very >high tech flywheels with the hope of powering cars. The car problem >has apparently proved insurmountable, but it would be ideal for IT. > >Plus, one of the hints about IT indicates "the technology has been >available for about 5 years". It is the flywheel powering device. You >read it here first. :-) > >--Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:27:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA06063; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:23:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:23:46 -0800 Message-ID: <03d701c07db7$7b3a9d60$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010113171338.007b31c0 pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Dean.....Vacuum IT uniscooter? (fwd) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:20:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"8oroU2.0.fU1.nLDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jed Rothwell To: ; Schnurer ; Vortex Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Dean.....Vacuum IT uniscooter? (fwd) Jed wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > If all holds true to earlier information to IT is a stand > >alone motor or device which is a Stirling cycle or some other > >type of close or semi closed device. > > > > This "motor" works on ambient thermal conditions. Further it does > >not use fuels as we describe them. > > I do not think this would be suitable for transportation applications, > particularly small vehicles. Because these machines tap small differences > in ambient temperature, the heat sink has to be huge, like the collection > area for solar power. The only potentially practical Stirling cycle > application I know of is OTEC -- (ocean thermo electricity?) which taps the > temperature gradient at different layers of the ocean. With LN2 (or Air) boiling at ~ 140 Deg Rankine (Minus 320 F) there's a potential Carnot efficiency of ~ 35% at 40 F ambient. Regards, Frederick > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 14:40:21 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA12497; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:37:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:37:33 -0800 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:49:07 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: Re[2]: Powering IT In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20010113170828.007b0c70 pop.mindspring.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-to: Lynn Kurtz Message-id: <126842506.20010113154907 imap2.asu.edu> Organization: ASU MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.44) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.6.32.20010113170828.007b0c70 pop.mindspring.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"QU6tp3.0.B33.jYDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JR> Lynn Kurtz wrote: >>With the general consensus among those willing to guess that IT is >>possibly a gyroscopically stabilized unicycle type vehicle, I would >>further add my guess that it is flywheel powered. JR> Would the vehicle be large enough? I think the problem with flywheel power JR> systems is that they are heavy and bulky, even compared to batteries. JR> - Jed Well, that brings out the rest of my hunch. I don't think "scooter" will be an appropriate description. If they are going to move people with them they are going to have to be enclosed and the rider(s) will sit. Frills like windshield wipers, lights, and probably heaters and a/c will be included (metro version, pro version ??). Think about the size and weight of a large motorcycle for comparison. Flywheels are borderline possible power sources for small cars; they could easily handle the IT that I envision. Flywheels don't seem so heavy and bulky when they are replacing engines. My guess is the device they demonstrated from a couple of duffel bags and boxes was probably a large toy size device as proof of principle. You would also laugh like Bezos is reported to have if you saw a unicycle device zipping around the room in a stable vertical fashion. So there you have it (IT). But, hey, I could be wrong. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 15:00:50 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA19814; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:55:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:55:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <126842506.20010113154907 imap2.asu.edu> References: <3.0.6.32.20010113170828.007b0c70 pop.mindspring.com> <126842506.20010113154907 imap2.asu.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:55:05 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re[2]: Powering IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"eFqvk.0.Wr4.LpDOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A golfcart-ish gizmo sounds like a more reasonable version. And as to flywheel weight, a high velocity wheel made out of lightweight material can pack more power than batteries per pound, as I recall from the articles. It's the v^2 in E = mv^2. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >Well, that brings out the rest of my hunch. I don't think "scooter" >will be an appropriate description. If they are going to move people >with them they are going to have to be enclosed and the rider(s) will >sit. Frills like windshield wipers, lights, and probably heaters and >a/c will be included (metro version, pro version ??). Think about the >size and weight of a large motorcycle for comparison. Flywheels are >borderline possible power sources for small cars; they could easily >handle the IT that I envision. Flywheels don't seem so heavy and bulky >when they are replacing engines. > >My guess is the device they demonstrated from a couple of duffel bags >and boxes was probably a large toy size device as proof of principle. >You would also laugh like Bezos is reported to have if you saw a >unicycle device zipping around the room in a stable vertical fashion. > >So there you have it (IT). But, hey, I could be wrong. > >--Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 15:12:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24233; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:08:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:08:21 -0800 Message-ID: <041301c07dbd$b4d32000$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Powering IT on Liquid Air? Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:05:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07D7A.9C8AD440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"F8dEt1.0.Sw5.a_DOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07D7A.9C8AD440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Methinks the Carnot Efficiency = Th-Tc/Th could get up to 60% at Th = 40 F (500 R) and Tc = 200 R (- 260 F). http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/phys202/carnot/carnot.html The Liquid N2 or Air can be made in huge quantities for less than $0.50/gallon. And you don't need antifreeze. :-) Nasa ships LH2 in 13,000 gallon rail cars. But LN2/Air is inert. Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07D7A.9C8AD440 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Carnot Engines, Heat Pumps, and Refrigerators.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Carnot Engines, Heat Pumps, and Refrigerators.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/phys202/carnot/carnot.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/phys202/carnot/carnot.html Modified=808DED26BC7DC0011A ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07D7A.9C8AD440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 15:58:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10030; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:55:41 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010113170828.007b0c70 pop.mindspring.com> <126842506.20010113154907 imap2.asu.edu> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:55:32 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re[2]: Powering IT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"JwGzm1.0.dS2.zhEOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's the v^2 in E = [1/2] mv^2. Need coffee. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 17:08:14 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA02253; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:05:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:05:58 -0800 Message-ID: <017d01c07dc6$20be1a60$8f1ad7d2 ibmbn145hv> From: "Greg Watson" To: "Energy Vortex" , "Energy FreeNrg" Subject: SMOT Refunds Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:35:46 +1030 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"M8Thr2.0.1Z.rjFOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I need your help to rebuild my list of those who ordered & paid for SMOT kits. I lost my original files but do have bank records with dates & amounts I paid in or came in via overseas funds transfers. I intend to refund ALL the money whether you want it back or not but I need you to send me (via the private email below) the date & amount you sent me. I can then put names to the dates. I would prefer to do a direct bank to bank transfer but I can do US or other currency bank cheques if you prefer. Thanks for your help as I really do need to get your money back. I do apologize for the delay but I just haven't been able to afford to do the refunds until now. ======================== Good Health & Long Life, Greg Watson, http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson gowatson asiaonline.net.au From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 18:16:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA19738; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:12:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:20:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Electrolyte ........ Water Transformer (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"wVgQL3.0.Kq4.nhGOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:59 PM 1/13/1, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear H snd Vo., > > If you use a digital voltmeter to measure DC resistance you will >ALWAYS get a wrong measure. If you use analog you will too... only less >so. > > One way to HELP... but still not right is to hold the two probes >separated with say wood dowel or pencil and STIR with vigor as you >measure.... clean the probes, reverse polarity... and STIR... do 10 >reversals and average the results. Typical serious measurement of electrolyte of course uses A/C, a bridge, and a precisely defined liquid volume. Platinum electrodes are good too. The primary concern in measuring relative conductance, as I did, is maintaining a fixed separation (which I did) and fixed surface area (which I did) and measuring at a fixed time delay from inserting the probes (which I did.) If the probes are relatively close together, then the surrounding volume is not so important. For example, the resistance measurements were indistingishable when water of a fixed salt concentration was poured from the glass, reducing the volume to 1/3 full. The measurements I made are not accurate enough to worry about digital vs analog issues. I only was curious as to what the best neighborhood was, and do not happen to have a conductivity by concentration table for NaCl handy. However, in any case, it is common knowledge that strong electrolytes at saturation decrease in conductivity upon dilution. I think, based on that brief test, that diluting about 3 to 1 is good for saltwater primary coil making, but it really doesn't make a lot of difference. The magnetic field results are still not so easy to come by for electrolytic coils, due to the low conductivity, even at optimum concentration. If anyone has the conductivity by concentration data or wants to do the experiment right, that would of course be welcome! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 19:57:25 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA13666; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:54:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:54:05 -0800 Message-ID: <3A612291.F9D37430 home.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 20:52:49 -0700 From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." Organization: Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-AtHome0407 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Remote Viewing Session of "IT" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------71126EC6D78C3ABB4A73B066" Resent-Message-ID: <"8JdNt.0.OL3.SBIOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------71126EC6D78C3ABB4A73B066 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, Angela Thompson Smith,( http://www.ivri.com) a professional remote viewer associated with the Stargate group of government viewers, a friend, and an organizer of the annual Remote Viewing Conference (www.RVConference.org) provided this session on "IT" on the Stargate list (with her permission): > Despite my initial worries that IT was a hoax I carried out a short ERV-type > session to look at this device and the following, despite frontloading > (speculations, scooter-like device, personal transportation, etc.), is what > I perceived. I may be way off but these were my perceptions: > > I perceived a group of men standing around a table top. On the table was a > round device which, when turned off, looks like a smaller version of a Lazy > Susan. - the kind you see on kitchen tables to rotate condiments etc. It was > composed of black plastic-type material. It had no power source that I could > see. There were ports for connection ie telephone jack, computer connectors > etc. There were drives for CD and small computer disks. When turned on it > produced a bluish haze above and to the center of the round disk. What > appeared, when it was activated, were sequential three-dimensional, > holographic images of cartoon characters i.e. Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. > There was the perception of sound with the cartoon characters saying their > famous quotes such as "What's up, Doc?" etc. There were not just short > laughs at this but fits of laughter with guys bent over double with > laughter. The device could play images and sound in a three dimensional > format from a computer hard-drive, CD and other computer disks, could be > connected to a DVD/VCR, or to the telephone for face-to-face communication. > I perceived that plans are in the works for a larger version for in-home > playing of movies and conference-type presentations. I also perceived the > innards of the device but do not want to post these to a public forum. But > the simplest explanation is that this device is the next step up from > computer-generated three-dimensional objects that are normally viewed on a > flat computer screen. > > Kind regards > Angela > > Angela T. Smith > Remote Viewing Consulting, LLC > 1836 Pinchot Street > Las Vegas, NV 89156 > Phone & Fax: (702) 453-5851 > Email: Catalyst sprintmail.com > www.remoteviewingconsulting.com > Author: Remote Perceptions > Diary of an Abduction > Moderator: subscribe-Stargate eGroups.com > International Remote Viewing Association (IRVA): > www.IRVA.org > Remote Viewing Conference 2001 > www.RVConference.org > Hoyt Stearns Phoenix -- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 --------------71126EC6D78C3ABB4A73B066 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="hoyt-stearns.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="hoyt-stearns.vcf" begin:vcard n:Stearns Jr.;Hoyt tel;fax:602 996 9088 tel;home:602 996 1717 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 adr:;;4131 E. Cannon Dr.;Phoenix;Arizona;85028-4122;US version:2.1 email;internet:hoyt-stearns home.com fn:http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Atlantis/1263 end:vcard --------------71126EC6D78C3ABB4A73B066-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 21:39:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA04796; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 21:37:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 21:37:48 -0800 Message-ID: <20010114053748.17637.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 21:37:48 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Schaffer Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Mi-7c3.0.rA1.hiJOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [I'm only a few hours away from starting a week-long business trip. My response will necessarily be brief, John, and I won't be on vortex for at least another week. Also, in general I do not believe in extended discussions on the same topic. You state your views a few times and I do the same with mine. This is not a battle, but an attempt to learn.] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * [snip lots of old stuff] > > Inertia is a property of mass > > yes > > > and is directly proportional to it. > > Of course, the reason I said inertia was because it was the > property of mass we are > concerned with, it's gravitational mass might remain unchanged, > though you probably don't > accept that as possible, it's not impossible. > > And I don't care how you decide the inertial mass changes, just > suppose it does. > > > > > Here mass is contained in the density, rho_0, > > Of course, density is the gravitational weight per volume. > > > which is mass per unit > > volume. Mass and compressibility are properties of the fluid. > > Of course > > > Mass is > > determined by the physics of the nucleus and deeper. > Compressibility > > and average volume occupied by a molecule are determined by the > > physics of the atomic electrons. > > The point would seem to be that compressibility and inertial mass > are independent of each > other. Yes, you got my point. > > I'm not sure how you imagine > > changing one or both of these. However, in the end, you have a > > density and a compressibility. The three equations of the > > mathematical model still describe the behavior of the new fluid. > All > > the other equations follow without change. The fluid still stops > at > > the valve when it closes > > yes > > > , and an accoustic wave propagates upstream. > > yes > > > Its amplitude contintues to be the amplitude with which it was > > launched > > yes > > > , which is exactly the amplitude that stops the original > > flow. > > yes > > > When the wave front reaches the end of the tube, all the water > > is motionless, but compressed. > > Yes, and to the same amount as before, containing the same energy, > yet you had a fluid > with less inertial mass and hence kinetic energy. NO. It is compressed less. When you bring the lesser mass to a stop, it develops less pressure, and then the fluid gets less compressed, too. > > If you change the density and/or > > compressibility, the calculated numbers change, but not their > > relations to each other, which are always given by the equations. > > If you change the density by decreasing mass of the water, yet > compression stays the same > the delay would remain the same, NO. The sound speed cs = sqrt(sig/rho_o) would increase, and then the delay would be less. > the energy contained in that level of compression would > be the same. NO. The energy contained in the now lesser compression is lower. The math showed that it is always the same as the initial kinetic energy. > > > I do have a few problems, for one we are talking about energy, > > > there is no energy in your calculations as there is no volume. [snip lots] > > Indeed, the kinetic energy of the initial flow has no effect on > the > > speed of sound and, therefore, no effect on the time it takes the > > wave to propagate the length of the tube. > > Really? your saying that? if you had less inertial mass it would > decrease the kinetic energy, YES, as already explained. > yet the delay stays the same, NO. > Of course you are now saying that compressibility > and inertial mass are directly related. NO. They are not related. I am treating them as independent properties of material, one of which arises mainly from electron physics and the other from nuclear physics. > If they are that argument of mine fails. > > > It smoothes out an otherwise instantaneous event. > > > > The wave front that is a solution to my eq (4) can be arbitrarily > > sharp. It does not smooth anything. > > You are wrong, as a water particle and the wave front collide the > particle gives up it's This point is too subtile to discuss in the brief time I have to write now. There is no contradiction. [snip] > > Mathematics is not just "the language of science," as is commonly > > stated. Mathematics is a system of logic. > > Logic is wonderful, yet like math is falls down when relied upon > too much, as it depends > on the knowledge of the person. > If they have gaps in knowledge or misconceptions, you can draw > incorrect conclusions. Math is a system of logic. We all make mistakes. It is easier to make a mistake without math than with it, especially when several effects are all linked and in play at the same time, as in the stopped water problem we are discussing. > > > Lets try an unreasonable speed, still well below the speed of > sound > > > in water, say 500mph and 250mph. > > > The length and diameter are arbitrary, 1 meter long and 1cm > dia, > > > the volume is obvious, > > > the velocity of the wave is obvious. > > > Infinitely rigid pipe wall and perfect valves. > > > No need to study the sprayouts and reflections. > > > > Pipe volume = V = pi r^2 L = pi (.005 m)^2 (1 m) > > = 7.856e-5 m^3 = 78.56 cm^3 > > > > cs = sqrt(sig/rho_0) = sqrt[(2e9Pa)/(1000kg) = 1414 m/s > > > > For vo = 500 mile/hour = 222 m/s: > > > > Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V > > = .5(1000kg/m^3)(222m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > > = 1936 joule > > > > Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) > > = (2e9Pa)[(222m/s)/1414m/s)] > > = 3.140e8 Pa (46.16e3 psi) > > > > For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (222m/s)/(1414m/s) > > = 0.1570(dimensionless) > > > > Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 (from eq 7) > > = .5(2e9Pa)(.1570)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > > = 1936 joule > > > > The kinetic and compression energies are equal. > > > > For vo = 250 mile/hour = 111 m/s: > > > > Kinetic energy = (1/2)rho_0 v0^2 V > > = .5(1000kg/m^3)(111m/s)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > > = 484 joule > > > > Pressure rise = dp = sig (vo/cs) > > = (2e9Pa)[(111m/s)/1414m/s)] > > = 1.570e8 Pa (23.08e3 psi) > > > > For eq (7), Xi/@x = v0/cs = (111m/s)/(1414m/s) > > = 0.0785 (dimensionless) > > > > Compression energy = (1/2) sig ( Xi/@x)^2 > > = .5(2e9Pa)(.0785)^2 (7.856e-5 m^3) > > = 484 joule > > Your equation does not deal with where the kinetic energy in the > water goes, you do not > have it add any energy to the compression, you just assume the > energy you project at the > end has this kinetic energy contained. > You stated above that your calculation could have an > instantaneously sharp wave, this > ignores the kinetic energy of the water. NO. My calculation correctly includes both kinetic and compression energies, as I tried to explain to you. I did not assume anything special about energy, as I said, specifically so you would not think that I was using a postulated conservation of energy in order to prove conservation of same. I did not do that. the conservation of energy flowed naturally from (1) Newton's F=ma; (2) a spring-like equation of state for the fluid compression, the key assumption being only that the fluid does not have friction; we agreed to the absence of friction when you defined the problem; (3) a geometry equation to calculate the change of volume of an element of fluid when everything is moving around all at once. > Now do you hold that density and compressibility are not > independent? Now you are talking about DENSITY, not mass. Density and compressibility both depend on the average space between the molecules, atoms, or whatever particles form the fluid. Density and compressibility additionally depend on other factors that are independent, at least within our present knowledge. > Lets imagine a gas of electrons in a vacuum, the speed of sound (if > you call it that) is c. Here c is not the speed of light, but of sound---just to be clear. > This will have to be at a pressure, might as well be sea level. > Now set this gas in motion down a pipe just like with the water, > then give them a barrier > they can't pass through (and we will ignore quantum physics here as > they would just jump > over the barrier ;) > A wave travel at c towards the input, still the input of the pipe > does not yet know. > This creates a compression of the gas, which you would argue the > energy contained therein > would equal the initial kinetic energy (in a perfect world) > of the electrons which are all stationary now. The gas of electrons is a fluid. It has a density and a compressibility. Its sound speed is still sqrt(sig/rho_o). It behaves like any other fluid, only the numbers sig and rho_o might be different from water's. > Ok, now lets change the electron gas to proton gas, or if you like > "New Super Looong Lasting Muon Gas tm.". > Now the compressibility is unchanged as they still only have the > same spin as the electron gas, but the inertial energy is much greater. Hold it. First, protons have spin = +/- 1, but electrons and muons have spin = +/- 1/2. Second, the compressibility of a gas depends mainly on its pressure, which is mainly the product of the density of particles (number of particles per unit volume, usually called particle density), the temperature and a constant (Boltzmann's constant. Anyway, you can adjust the temperatures and particle densities so that the gases all have the same compressibilty but different mass densities. > The speed of sound is still limited to c. > The same length pipe and the same volume at same density and number > of charges are all the > same, the speed of the charges and the speed of sound still c, the > delay time is the same. You have specified too many parameters, and they are not self consistent. If you set up the pipes with different gases, (1) all with the same PARTICLE density (I think this is what you are thinking, so that the MASS density is proportional to the particle mass) and (2) all with the same sound speed, then the gases will all have to have different temperatures and pressures. Therefore, they will also have different compressibilities. Each gas will thus have a different constant relating pressure change and density change. > So the kinetic energy in is much more as the inertial mass is much > greater. YES. You set up the gas filled pipes to set this condition. > Yet as everything else is the same, the energy stored in the > compression of the charges is the same. NO, because the compressibilities are all different, if they all have the same c, which is what you said. > As the same number of charges entered the pipe at the same > velocity, and the wave still > propagates at the same velocity and the energy contained in > compression of the charges remains the same. All the fluids you propose are described by the mathematical model I presented, whose solution I outlined and whose results I explained, so long as there is no friction. The initial kinetic energy always ends up as potential energy of compression, one to one, when the wave front reaches the inlet end. > This destroys your work to show the idea is wrong, not by > mathematics but by further thought experiment. Let's try not to use war words, please. [snip] ===== Michael J. Schaffer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 22:13:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10959; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:07:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:07:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:07:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"YyK1H2.0.4h2.q8KOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Storms and Jed Rothwell wrote; >?This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not allowed to accumulate >within the local atmosphere. Otherwise the radioactivity is insignificant. >In spite of this reality, the US government does not make a distinction >between U238, which is depleted uranium, and U235, which is dangerous, in >judging the hazards of the radiation. > >Ed > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its >> chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a >> secondary issue. >> > > - Jed I don't know Ed, I normally defer to your judgement, but I think that you are incorrect on this one. When the shell explodes if vaporizes and then it oxidizes U203 is a dust right? which can get into your lungs and if just one of those atoms of U decomposes in close proximity to your lung tissues you have a good chance of the cells becomming cancerous, right? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 13 22:56:22 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20577; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:55:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 22:55:03 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A5FEF6F.F95BA720 earthlink.net> References: <001501c07ce1$bded3860$e399fc9e jennigjeworld.net> <3A5FEF6F.F95BA720 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 00:54:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: thomas malloy Subject: Re: Murray: sorry, Dennis Lee is famous con artist 1.12.01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Resent-Message-ID: <"fvKQ51.0.Q15.7rKOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't believe that Dennis is still running around loose. Conmen like Dennis give legitimate researchers and network marketers like me a bad name Thomas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 05:54:45 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA04371; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 05:53:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 05:53:56 -0800 Message-ID: <046401c07e39$6d720b00$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> From: "Frederick Sparber" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 06:50:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"ylS-Z1.0.C41.qzQOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this out, Hank. :-) The Best state-of-the-art Storage Batteries can do 15 watt-hours (~50 Btu per pound). A good silica brick at ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) can do ~ 250 Btu/lb high grade heat storage. The Carnot Efficiency with a sink temperature of ~140 F (~ 600 R) is: (1500-600)/1500 = 0.60 = 60 % With a hot air Stirling Engine running off the Brick Heat at 30 % efficiency, (0.30* 250) = 75 Btu of work delivered to the vehicle wheels. On top of that, the wall socket "charging efficiency" of the bricks using electrical cartridge heaters is close to 100%. Since the silica (sand) bricks are "unleaded" and dirt cheap and can be heated by a wood stove or other flame source or a solar concentrator instead of electricity..... :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 07:09:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA18596; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:08:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:08:05 -0800 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:09:03 -0600 From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Calculation Re: Thought Experiment - Free Energy Device In-reply-to: <20010114053748.17637.qmail web2102.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: little earthtech.org To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010114083710.02b38a30 earthtech.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Q6HrM2.0.UY4.L3SOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:37 PM 1/13/2001 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >[I'm only a few hours away from starting a week-long business trip. >My response will necessarily be brief, John, and I won't be on >vortex for at least another week. Also, in general I do not believe >in extended discussions on the same topic. You state your views a few >times and I do the same with mine. This is not a battle, but an >attempt to learn.] After reading Michael's valiant effort to match John's challenges "tree for tree", I suggest we step back and take a look at this entire "forest": John suggested that a particular dynamic mechanical system should produce excess energy. Michael skillfully analyzed this system and showed that it does not produce excess energy...that, in fact, energy is conserved. The point I want to make is that this is how such analyses will ALWAYS turn out. The reason is simple: our analysis tools are either consistent with or derived from conservation of energy principles. Therefore when they are correctly applied to ANY problem, they predict that energy will be conserved. It's a tautology. Now before you go claiming that our analysis tools must therefore be flawed, you need to fully appreciate implications of the fact that for centuries now, men have applied such analyses to machines they were designing, then subsequently built, and then tested...and the analysis ALWAYS gives the right answer! This "water hammer" problem you posed has certainly been solved many times before Michael tackled it again recently. I have no doubt that, if we equipped a long pipe with suitable instrumentation, the results would match his predictions within the accuracy of the transducers, provided we made allowances for the losses (e.g. friction) which he understandably ignored in his analysis. All that having been said, you might ask, "What is Scott Little doing on this forum anyway?" Two things, really: 1. I am investigating experiments which produce anomalous results. I readily accept that there might be something wrong with our existing physics and I eagerly search in the one field where that can be proven: experimentation. 2. I am interested in physical phenomena that we presently don't know how to explain. For example, what is inertia? what is mass? what is charge? what is the origin of gravity? etc. Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300 Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 512-346-3017 (FAX) http://www.earthtech.org From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 07:35:39 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA24755; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:34:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:34:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3A61B944.63C774B9 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:35:49 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xiD8M2.0.h26.vRSOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: thomas malloy wrote: > Ed Storms and Jed Rothwell wrote; > > >?This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not allowed to accumulate > >within the local atmosphere. Otherwise the radioactivity is insignificant. > >In spite of this reality, the US government does not make a distinction > >between U238, which is depleted uranium, and U235, which is dangerous, in > >judging the hazards of the radiation. > > > >Ed > > > >Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > >> The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its > >> chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a > >> secondary issue. > >> > > > - Jed > > I don't know Ed, I normally defer to your judgement, but I think that > you are incorrect on this one. When the shell explodes if vaporizes > and then it oxidizes U203 is a dust right? which can get into your > lungs and if just one of those atoms of U decomposes in close > proximity to your lung tissues you have a good chance of the cells > becomming cancerous, right? Uranium normally goes to UO2 in air. The issue is how much you might breathe and how long the UO2 stays in the lungs. Because UO2 is very heavy, most will quickly drop out of the air. The small amount that gets into the body will be the issue. In fact, UO2 is slowly dissolved by the body and the U is mostly eliminated. A short exposure will not produce cancer. Of course, if the dose is massive, as is the case with uranium miners, the UO2 enters faster than it can leave. In addition, the remaining U, after the UO2 has dissolved, can cause trouble when so much is present to start with. As an aside, PuO2 is different because of the much greater radiation. This forms a zone of dead cells around the oxide particle, thus isolating it from body fluids. While this keeps the oxide in the body, the cells that might have become cancerous are instead killed outright. Pu is only dangerous when it enters the body as an ion and as such can deposit in the bones. On the other hand, tritium is only toxic in large quantities because it is eliminated from the body very rapidly. As you see, the potential for cancer is complex and generally not as likely as many people believe. It takes a lot of radiation to produce cancer. Smoking is much worse. On the other hand, I would not like to be near an exploding uranium shell. Cancer would be the least of my worries. Ed Storms From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:07:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA30563; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:03:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:03:08 -0800 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:56:51 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A61CC43.2122C59B pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <046401c07e39$6d720b00$91b4bfa8 fjsparber> Resent-Message-ID: <"9Q44G1.0.PT7.xsSOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: > The Best state-of-the-art Storage Batteries can do 15 watt-hours > (~50 Btu per pound). A good silica brick at ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) can > do ~ 250 Btu/lb high grade heat storage. Hey Frederick, In addition to this idea, you have also recently looked into using liquid air as an energy storage substitute for batteries. Looking ahead, have you ever run the numbers on a "push-pull" system using both heat storage on one end and cold storage on the other? It would probably have to work something like this: the brick heats the hot end of the Sterling engine and the LN cools the cold end and is then expanded through a turbine which is either geared down to supplement the output of the Sterling or both have their own generators. One has to wonder if any synergy exists between two old but still marginally viable technologies. Regards, Jones From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:20:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA02870; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:17:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:17:34 -0800 Message-Id: <200101141617.LAA20436 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Much more on IT Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:13:44 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"2uLUc.0.mi.T4TOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One of the best hints on IT comes from Metcalfe in the following article: http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20707&pod_id=8&uiFiller=N Bob Metcalfe, the founder of 3com and a friend of Kamen's, responded to questions about the inventor's secret project with the following e-mail Thursday night: ''My hero Dean told my kids about IT, and I've seen IT (THEM) in Manchester. We've been sworn to secrecy. But, well, if it pans out, it's gonna be big, like Doerr et al. say. Now, if I invented metal, and came out with the first spoon, which would be the big invention, the spoon or metal? This is the current complication in solving the IT mystery.'' There must be some kind of new "principle" -- which has not gotten out. That is the "metal" -- not the "spoon." I do not think that scooters or telepresence would come close to meriting the hyperbole being lavished on this. Remember: It's got to either eliminate fossil fuel, or save lots of it -- if the hype is legit. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:27:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05082; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:23:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:23:58 -0800 Message-ID: <017701c07e47$9171b560$ab93cbc1 pc> From: "Noel Whitney" To: Subject: Rocket Motors Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:32:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0174_01C07E47.9029A500" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"C4Ggn3.0.KF1.TATOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C07E47.9029A500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable can anyone point me please 9n the right direction - Books /Web = sites/individuals etc regarding the relative benefots of various = "Shapes" on Venturi arrangements in above. I am aware they are often employed to increase the velocity and hence = the thrust for a given mass but where did the shapes and curves come = from ??? or was it determined practically ?? I am talking small sizes - = typically 50mm dia on the mouth area. Any help appreciated - Happy new year to all on Vortex. ------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C07E47.9029A500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
can anyone point me please 9n the right = direction -=20 Books /Web sites/individuals etc regarding the relative benefots of = various=20 "Shapes" on Venturi arrangements in above.
I am aware they are often employed to = increase the=20 velocity and hence the thrust for a given mass but where did the shapes = and=20 curves come from ??? or was it determined practically ?? I am talking = small=20 sizes - typically 50mm dia on the mouth area.
 
Any help appreciated - Happy new year = to all on=20 Vortex.
------=_NextPart_000_0174_01C07E47.9029A500-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:30:42 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA05834; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:26:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:26:46 -0800 Message-Id: <200101141626.LAA21591 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Kamen's comments Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:22:57 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "Eugene F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"y26rd.0._Q1.5DTOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.inside.com/jcs/Story?article_id=20834&pod_id=8 Still sounds like decoy actions to me. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 08:35:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA07425; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:31:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:31:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:27:19 -0800 From: Jones Beene Subject: Re:FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <3A61D366.C474A987 pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-CCK-MCD EBM-Compaq1 (Win98; U) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"E9MJl3.0.xp1.7HTOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: 
The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its 
chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a
secondary issue.
Edmund Storms wrote:
This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not allowed to accumulate
within the local atmosphere.


In light of the numerous reports that keep filtering out of Europe on this subject, it would seem foolish to continue to tow the US government's line on this issue - especially by those on this forum who seek to change the accepted paradigm on other related issues (LENR)

Here is a snip of just the most recent of dozens of similar reports:.
  

Hundreds Died of Cancer After DU Bombing - By Gordana Filipovic (Reuters)
Updated 1:19 PM ET January 13, 2001

BELGRADE (Reuters) - A Yugoslav pathologist said on Saturday about 400
Bosnian Serbs from an area bombarded by NATO with depleted uranium shells in
1994 later died of various forms of cancer.

Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the
Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which 
totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons.


Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information) of  gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.

As I stated in a previous post there is a small chance that the anomaly can be explained by the increase in radioactivity of DU due to LENR.

In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be explained away by the negligible increase in radon that would occur during the short time span that has occurred since these rounds were fired.

Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 09:30:46 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA25789; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:27:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:27:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:35:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Much more on IT Resent-Message-ID: <"yQcIL.0.oI6.u5UOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:13 AM 1/14/1, Eugene F. Mallove wrote: >Remember: It's got to either eliminate fossil fuel, or save lots of it -- >if the hype is legit. How is this true? A new means of maintaining (machine) balance while walking or jumping would qualify too, I think. There has been lots of research done on this in recent years, especially at MIT, though the MIT apparatus which I have seen on TV was only two dimensional (e.g. a pogo-stick attached to a rotating arm such that the pogo only went around in circles.) There have also been various other means of locomotion explored, some by genetic algorithms. Maybe one panned out. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 14 09:31:34 2001 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA26051; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:27:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:27:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3A61D3D8.3C6CA889 ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:29:25 -0600 From: Edmund Storms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010112123858.00a9dd10 pop.mindspring.com> <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> <3A61D366.C474A987@pacbell.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0439BA70034D291B5B500DCC" Resent-Message-ID: <"KYvI43.0.zM6.G6UOw" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/40065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --------------0439BA70034D291B5B500DCC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jones Beene wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its >> chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a >> secondary issue. >> > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not >> allowed to accumulate >> within the local atmosphere. > > > In light of the numerous reports that keep filtering out > of Europe on this subject, it would seem foolish to > continue to tow the US government's line on this issue - > especially by those on this forum who seek to change the > accepted paradigm on other related issues (LENR) > > Here is a snip of just the most recent of dozens of > similar reports:. > > >> Hundreds Died of Cancer After DU Bombing - By Gordana Filipovic (Reuters) >> Updated 1:19 PM ET January 13, 2001 >> >> BELGRADE (Reuters) - A Yugoslav pathologist said on Saturday about 400 >> Bosnian Serbs from an area bombarded by NATO with depleted uranium shells in >> 1994 later died of various forms of cancer. >> Such shells are used as anti-tank weapons, not for general bombing. The general population would not be exposed unless they were near a tank. >> >> Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the >> Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which >> totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons. >> Here you might want to consider the source. The Yugoslavs hated our involvement and would find any reason to make us look bad. > > Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is > absolutely unprecedented and points either to a cover-up > (of known information) of gigantic proportions - or the > existence of an anomaly. When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful to include all variables, not just the one being blamed. For example, the stress of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to more disease, including cancer. The resulting bad diet will also add its effect. In addition, this is a third world country in which normal medical care is not great. The first world comes in and suddenly sees cancer. The question is, how much cancer was always present in the population and was not seen before? Also, we need to know exactly what kinds of cancer are included in this 10%. How much of this cancer would result from smoking, which is very common in this country? Uranium causes lung cancer and cancer of the lymph system in uranium miners. These people could not possibility have acquired enough uranium to suffer the fate of uranium miners. Has any one done an uranium analysis of the bodies? As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation has always produced nonradioactive isotopes. That is why it is being proposed as a method to detoxify radioactive waste. > > As I stated in a previous post there is a small chance > that the anomaly can be explained by the increase in > radioactivity of DU due to LENR. > > In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be explained > away by the negligible increase in radon that would occur > during the short time span that has occurred since these > rounds were fired. I agree. However, other variables as noted above are more likely to have an effect than is LENR. Ed Storms > > > Jones Beene --------------0439BA70034D291B5B500DCC Content-Type: text/html; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Jones Beene wrote:

Jed Rothwell wrote: 
The Europeans say depleted uranium is dangerous mainly because of its 
chemical properties, which are similar to those of lead. Radioactivity is a
secondary issue.
Edmund Storms wrote:
This is absolutely correct provided the radon is not allowed to accumulate
within the local atmosphere.


In light of the numerous reports that keep filtering out of Europe on this subject, it would seem foolish to continue to tow the US government's line on this issue - especially by those on this forum who seek to change the accepted paradigm on other related issues (LENR)

Here is a snip of just the most recent of dozens of similar reports:.
  

Hundreds Died of Cancer After DU Bombing - By Gordana Filipovic (Reuters)
Updated 1:19 PM ET January 13, 2001

BELGRADE (Reuters) - A Yugoslav pathologist said on Saturday about 400
Bosnian Serbs from an area bombarded by NATO with depleted uranium shells in
1994 later died of various forms of cancer.
Such shells are used as anti-tank weapons, not for general bombing.  The general population would not be exposed unless they were near a tank. 

Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the
Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which 
totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons.
Here you might want to consider the source.  The Yugoslavs hated our involvement and would find any reason to make us look bad. 






Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely
unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information) of 
gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.

When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful to include all
variables, not just the one being blamed.  For example, the stress
of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to more disease,
including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also add its effect.
In addition, this is a third world country in which normal medical care
is not great.  The first world comes in and suddenly sees cancer. 
The question is, how much cancer was always present in the population and
was not seen before?  Also, we need to know exactly what kinds of
cancer are included in this 10%.  How much of this cancer would result
from smoking, which is very common in this country? Uranium causes lung
cancer and cancer of the lymph system in uranium miners.  These people
could not possibility have acquired enough uranium to suffer the fate of
uranium miners.  Has any one done an uranium analysis of the bodies?

As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation has always produced
nonradioactive isotopes.  That is why it is being proposed as a method
to detoxify radioactive waste.

 

 

As I stated in a previous post there is a small chance that the anomaly
can be explained by the increase in radioactivity of DU due to LENR.

In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be explained away by the
negligible increase in radon that would occur during the short time span
that has occurred since these rounds were fired.

I agree.  However, other variables as noted above are more likely
to have an effect than is LENR.

Ed Storms

 

Jones Beene



--------------0439BA70034D291B5B500DCC--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 11:15:07 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Much more on IT
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Hi Horace,

On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:35:42 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>At 11:13 AM 1/14/1, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>
>>Remember: It's got to either eliminate fossil fuel, or save lots of it --
>>if the hype is legit.
>
>How is this true?  A new means of maintaining (machine) balance while
>walking or jumping would qualify too, I think.  

No, it would still be a toy.  Admittedly, toys are a big deal in the
marketplace -- but nothing on which to base the redesign of cities.

Even my opinion of the IT -- an enclosed, 2 passenger "super
wheelchair" -- isn't enough of a change for that redesign.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 11:32:42 2001
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Edmund Storms wrote:

Such shells are used as anti-tank weapons, not for
general bombing.  The general population would not be exposed unless
they were near a tank.

This off-the-cuff assumptions is indicative of why your analysis of this
situation is fundamentally flawed.

Approximately 30,000 rounds were fired by our own admission. The total
is probably much higher. The actual armor hit is in the low thousands.
Of these targets only a minority were tanks and most was heavy armor of
other varieties.

Many of the rounds were converted into radioactive dust on impact but
many ended up intact in the soil. So much so that they briefly appeared
in auction on the internet in Europe before this trade was halted.

Prior to this (when hostilities were still going on) many nearly intact
DU rounds were collected by the population by the thousands and sewn into
flak jackets that the civilians would wear to market to protect against
snipers. This close contact to DU, even if it were only for a few hours
a day is one problem.







Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the
Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which 
totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons.











Here you might want to consider the source.  The Yugoslavs hated our involvement 
and would find any reason to make us look bad.






Although the figures quoted might be inflated, I suggest that you
reconsider you negative assessment of the source. With all the changes
that have taken place in Yugoslavia recently, there are few top officials
getting access to the press now in order to propagandize against the US
- as the West is now a significant source of support for many institutions
in Yugoslavia, especially medical. One might even say that this could be
construed as a "statement against interest."



 

Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely
unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information) of 
gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.

When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful to include all
variables, not just the one being blamed.  For example, the stress
of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to more disease,
including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also add its effect.

Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally takes for cancer to
set in from these minor contributing causes.

In addition, this is a third world country in which
normal medical care is not great.  The first world comes in and suddenly
sees cancer.  The question is, how much cancer was always present
in the population and was not seen before?  Also, we need to know
exactly what kinds of cancer are included in this 10%.  How much of
this cancer would result from smoking, which is very common in this country?

Smoking is not as common in those areas (were poverty and lack of supply
of tobacco is an issue) as you might suspect. Even so it would only have
been a small influence relative to the enormity of the problem.

Uranium causes lung cancer and cancer of the lymph
system in uranium miners.  These people could not possibility have
acquired enough uranium to suffer the fate of uranium miners.  Has
any one done an uranium analysis of the bodies?

One of the purposes of all this coverage in the press is to force the UN
to investigate, as the US has flatly forbidden any real consideration of
such an effort, just as with Gulf War syndrome.

As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation
has always produced nonradioactive isotopes.  That is why it is being
proposed as a method to detoxify radioactive waste.

What non radioactive isotopes come from U detoxification? What physical
principle would suggest that they should all be non radioactive? Whatever
process going on here may not be the same as thorium remediation - it could
be a different kind of LENR.



In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be
explained away by the negligible increase in radon that would occur during
the short time span that has occurred since these rounds were fired.

I agree.  However, other variables as noted above are more likely
to have an effect than is LENR.

I agree that other variable are more likely, even much more likely. However,
this will never be known fully so long as our government throws up obstacles
to investigation into ALL possible causes.

BTW it has been estimated that the potential liability of the US in
Yugoslavia and in Iraq, if measured on the same standards that US courts
employ, could increase the national debt significantly. This is a major
reason for our intransigence but the real "blame" goes back to the false
economics of certain Pentagon bureaucrats for giving away DU for this application
(actually the ammunition makers may have been paid in the form of incentives- 
plus getting processed DU for free).

There is a lot more to this story that has yet to be explored, particularly
the angle of Beryllium, which despite your reservations to the contrary,
is a material that could easily have ended up in this application - as
much of it has appeared on the black market as a cold war legacy from nuclear
dismantling - and it provides significant beneficial physical properties
for armor piercing that few other alloying elements can provide. The (false)
economics implicit in DU usage, i.e. "residual sunk cost" or whatever you
want to call it, applies equally to this material.

Regards,

Jones Beene

 

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 13:00:08 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [vxB]: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:50:14 +1100
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:35:49 -0600:
[snip]
>Uranium normally goes to UO2 in air. The issue is how much
>you might breathe and
>how long the UO2 stays in the lungs.  Because UO2 is very
>heavy, most will quickly
>drop out of the air.  

I think this is somewhat over simplified. Dust particles are billions of
times heavier than a molecule of UO2, yet can remain suspended in the air
for weeks, if carried by the slightest breeze. Hence the real question is,
what size dust particles are formed when these shells disintegrate. 

>The small amount that gets into the
>body will be the
>issue.   In fact, UO2 is slowly dissolved by the body and
>the U is mostly
>eliminated. 

Doesn't the rate of elimination depend on the form that the uranium is in?
Is UO2 dissolved by HCL in the stomach? What about UO2 that ends up in water
that is drunk by cows? Does it end up in their milk? Shouldn't they be
testing the food supply in Kosovo as well as just running around measuring
radioactivity in the husks of burnt out tanks?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:15:26 +1100
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2001 06:50:30 -0800:
[snip]
>The Carnot Efficiency with a sink temperature of  ~140 F (~ 600 R)
>is:
>
>(1500-600)/1500 = 0.60  = 60 %

Unfortunately, this is only true in the beginning when the brick is still
hot. As the temperature drops, so will the Carnot efficiency. You will need 
to integrate to find out what the real useful energy content of the brick
is.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 13:33:06 2001
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Gene writes:

>Remember: It's got to either eliminate fossil fuel, or save lots of it --
>if the hype is legit.

At least those comments make it clear that there is something 
fundamental claimed for this - it's not just another gizmo (if the 
hype is true). It's a principle, and an application of the principle 
as a practical(?) device. That I didn't expect, and I'd still be 
surprised if it were true.

FWIW, remote viewers have been at it, and one reading I saw has it as 
a 3D display apparatus where they showed cartoon characters in the 
demo.

Everyone's been all over and even off the map on this. From 
ornithopters to scooters to CF to 3D. The leak regrets sound sincere 
- all the better to play the hype with. Must be fun to tip the world 
on its ear!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Remember: It's got to either eliminate fossil fuel, or save lots of it --
>if the hype is legit.
>
>Gene Mallove

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Jones Beene wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>> Such shells are used as anti-tank weapons, not for
>> general bombing.  The general population would not be
>> exposed unless they were near a tank.
>
> This off-the-cuff assumptions is indicative of why your
> analysis of this situation is fundamentally flawed.

My analysis rests not on how many rounds were spent but on
how much UO2 would have been inhaled by the population.
Because most rounds miss their target and are subsequently
found, as you note, they would not produce cancer.  Even
those that were completely oxidized would have been
dangerous only for a short distance down wind.  The burning
rubber would have been a greater health hazard.

>
>
> Approximately 30,000 rounds were fired by our own
> admission. The total is probably much higher. The actual
> armor hit is in the low thousands. Of these targets only a
> minority were tanks and most was heavy armor of other
> varieties.
>
> Many of the rounds were converted into radioactive dust on
> impact but many ended up intact in the soil. So much so
> that they briefly appeared in auction on the internet in
> Europe before this trade was halted.
>
> Prior to this (when hostilities were still going on) many
> nearly intact DU rounds were collected by the population
> by the thousands and sewn into flak jackets that the
> civilians would wear to market to protect against snipers.
> This close contact to DU, even if it were only for a few
> hours a day is one problem.

The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission that would
not reach the body.  The gamma emission is very small and,
unless the jacket were worn night and day, a person would
experience no more radiation than a chest X-ray.  While a
pathological fear exists toward radiation, the fact is that
small doses are easily handled by the body.

>
>
>> >>  Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the
>> >>  Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which
>> >>  totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons.
>> >>
>> Here you might want to consider the source.  The Yugoslavs hated our involvement
>> and would find any reason to make us look bad.
>>
>
> Although the figures quoted might be inflated, I suggest
> that you reconsider you negative assessment of the source.
> With all the changes that have taken place in Yugoslavia
> recently, there are few top officials getting access to
> the press now in order to propagandize against the US - as
> the West is now a significant source of support for many
> institutions in Yugoslavia, especially medical. One might
> even say that this could be construed as a "statement
> against interest."

Or it could be a method to extract more medical support.

>> >
>> > Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time
>> > is absolutely unprecedented and points either to a
>> > cover-up (of known information) of  gigantic
>> > proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.
>>
>> When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful
>> to include all variables, not just the one being
>> blamed.  For example, the stress of the war will weaken
>> the immune system, thereby leading to more disease,
>> including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also add
>> its effect.
>
> Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally takes
> for cancer to set in from these minor contributing causes.

Yes, and it takes just as long for cancer to occur from
radiation.  This region of Europe got a dose from Chennoble
and some people have been eating food containing
radioactivity imported from Russia.  I suggest this might be
a better explanation for the cancer.

>
>
>> In addition, this is a third world country in which
>> normal medical care is not great.  The first world comes
>> in and suddenly sees cancer.  The question is, how much
>> cancer was always present in the population and was not
>> seen before?  Also, we need to know exactly what kinds
>> of cancer are included in this 10%.  How much of this
>> cancer would result from smoking, which is very common
>> in this country?
>
> Smoking is not as common in those areas (were poverty and
> lack of supply of tobacco is an issue) as you might
> suspect. Even so it would only have been a small influence
> relative to the enormity of the problem.

It has been my observation that smoking is high even where
poverty exists because it is a legal addictive drug that
makes people feel better.  In fact, tobacco will find its
way into a country in place of food.   Since Turkey is close
and is a major source of tobacco, I doubt people have a
problem getting a smoke.

>
>
>> Uranium causes lung cancer and cancer of the lymph
>> system in uranium miners.  These people could not
>> possibility have acquired enough uranium to suffer the
>> fate of uranium miners.  Has any one done an uranium
>> analysis of the bodies?
>
> One of the purposes of all this coverage in the press is
> to force the UN to investigate, as the US has flatly
> forbidden any real consideration of such an effort, just
> as with Gulf War syndrome.

Now that is a different issue.  The US can be counted on to
protect its interests even to the extent of hiding the truth
by any means possible, the individual be damned.

>> As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation
>> has always produced nonradioactive isotopes.  That is
>> why it is being proposed as a method to detoxify
>> radioactive waste.
>
> What non radioactive isotopes come from U detoxification?
> What physical principle would suggest that they should all
> be non radioactive? Whatever process going on here may not
> be the same as thorium remediation - it could be a
> different kind of LENR.

In the absence of hard facts and a good understanding of
LENR, any speculation is possible.  However, a number of
very plausible conclusions can be formulated.  We know that
nuclear reactions are not initiated by ordinary chemical
processes.  Too much experience supports this conclusion for
it to be ignored.  When LENR occurs, it does so only when a
special solid environment is present. This environment is
necessary to neutralize the coulomb barrier and allow the
nucleus to be accessed.  When this happens to a radioactive
isotope, the excess energy causing the radioactivity is
drained away.  Radioactivity only happens when energy is
available to be trapped temporally in the nucleus.  Normal
chemical reactions  do not have sufficient energy, even if
the energy could be deposited in the nucleus, to result is
significant radioactivity.

>
>
>> > In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be
>> > explained away by the negligible increase in radon that
>> > would occur during the short time span that has
>> > occurred since these rounds were fired.
>>
>> I agree.  However, other variables as noted above are
>> more likely to have an effect than is LENR.
>
> I agree that other variable are more likely, even much
> more likely. However, this will never be known fully so
> long as our government throws up obstacles to
> investigation into ALL possible causes.
>
> BTW it has been estimated that the potential liability of
> the US in Yugoslavia and in Iraq, if measured on the same
> standards that US courts employ, could increase the
> national debt significantly. This is a major reason for
> our intransigence but the real "blame" goes back to the
> false economics of certain Pentagon bureaucrats for giving
> away DU for this application (actually the ammunition
> makers may have been paid in the form of incentives-  plus
> getting processed DU for free).

The rounds are used because they work.  The object of war is
to destroy and kill.  The tools of war are designed to
destroy very fast.  The Pentagon and the ammunition makers
are only doing what we pay them to do.  If you have a gripe,
you should object to the politicians who allowed the
situation to go so far that war was necessary.  If we had
lost this war because we used less efficient tools, I think
many more objections would now be heard.

>
>
> There is a lot more to this story that has yet to be
> explored, particularly the angle of Beryllium, which
> despite your reservations to the contrary, is a material
> that could easily have ended up in this application - as
> much of it has appeared on the black market as a cold war
> legacy from nuclear dismantling - and it provides
> significant beneficial physical properties for armor
> piercing that few other alloying elements can provide. The
> (false) economics implicit in DU usage, i.e. "residual
> sunk cost" or whatever you want to call it, applies
> equally to this material.

Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium
because the oxide, once in the lungs, does not leave,
thereby causing irritation and death.  However, you are
correct, as more Be becomes available from decommissioned
nuclear weapons, someone will find a use that will add to
our environmental problems.   Fortunately, the element is
not especially poisonous - for example compared to lead and
other such elements common in the environment.

Ed Storms


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones Beene
>
>

--------------65F640CA1E5FD1A3F9FEBB73
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Jones Beene wrote:

Edmund Storms wrote:

Such shells are used as anti-tank weapons, not for
general bombing.  The general population would not be exposed unless
they were near a tank.

This off-the-cuff assumptions is indicative of why your analysis of this
situation is fundamentally flawed.

My analysis rests not on how many rounds were spent but on how much UO2
would have been inhaled by the population.   Because most rounds
miss their target and are subsequently found, as you note, they would not
produce cancer.  Even those that were completely oxidized would have
been dangerous only for a short distance down wind.  The burning rubber
would have been a greater health hazard.

 

Approximately 30,000 rounds were fired by our own admission. The total
is probably much higher. The actual armor hit is in the low thousands.
Of these targets only a minority were tanks and most was heavy armor of
other varieties.

Many of the rounds were converted into radioactive dust on impact but
many ended up intact in the soil. So much so that they briefly appeared
in auction on the internet in Europe before this trade was halted.

Prior to this (when hostilities were still going on) many nearly intact
DU rounds were collected by the population by the thousands and sewn into
flak jackets that the civilians would wear to market to protect against
snipers. This close contact to DU, even if it were only for a few hours
a day is one problem.

The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission that would not reach the
body.  The gamma emission is very small and, unless the jacket were
worn night and day, a person would experience no more radiation than a
chest X-ray.  While a pathological fear exists toward radiation, the
fact is that small doses are easily handled by the body.

 







Doctor Zoran Stankovic, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine of the
Yugoslav Military-Medical Academy in Belgrade, linked the deaths -- which 
totaled about 10 percent of the community -- to radioactive weapons.











Here you might want to consider the source.  The Yugoslavs hated our involvement 
and would find any reason to make us look bad.






Although the figures quoted might be inflated, I suggest that you
reconsider you negative assessment of the source. With all the changes
that have taken place in Yugoslavia recently, there are few top officials
getting access to the press now in order to propagandize against the US
- as the West is now a significant source of support for many institutions
in Yugoslavia, especially medical. One might even say that this could be
construed as a "statement against interest."

Or it could be a method to extract more medical support.





 

Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely
unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information) of 
gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.

When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful to include all
variables, not just the one being blamed.  For example, the stress
of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to more disease,
including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also add its effect.

Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally takes for cancer to
set in from these minor contributing causes.

Yes, and it takes just as long for cancer to occur from radiation. 
This region of Europe got a dose from Chennoble and some people have been
eating food containing radioactivity imported from Russia.  I suggest
this might be a better explanation for the cancer.

 

In addition, this is a third world country in which
normal medical care is not great.  The first world comes in and suddenly
sees cancer.  The question is, how much cancer was always present
in the population and was not seen before?  Also, we need to know
exactly what kinds of cancer are included in this 10%.  How much of
this cancer would result from smoking, which is very common in this country?

Smoking is not as common in those areas (were poverty and lack of supply
of tobacco is an issue) as you might suspect. Even so it would only have
been a small influence relative to the enormity of the problem.

It has been my observation that smoking is high even where poverty exists
because it is a legal addictive drug that makes people feel better. 
In fact, tobacco will find its way into a country in place of food.  
Since Turkey is close and is a major source of tobacco, I doubt people
have a problem getting a smoke.

 

Uranium causes lung cancer and cancer of the lymph
system in uranium miners.  These people could not possibility have
acquired enough uranium to suffer the fate of uranium miners.  Has
any one done an uranium analysis of the bodies?

One of the purposes of all this coverage in the press is to force the UN
to investigate, as the US has flatly forbidden any real consideration of
such an effort, just as with Gulf War syndrome.

Now that is a different issue.  The US can be counted on to protect
its interests even to the extent of hiding the truth by any means possible,
the individual be damned.



As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation
has always produced nonradioactive isotopes.  That is why it is being
proposed as a method to detoxify radioactive waste.

What non radioactive isotopes come from U detoxification? What physical
principle would suggest that they should all be non radioactive? Whatever
process going on here may not be the same as thorium remediation - it could
be a different kind of LENR.

In the absence of hard facts and a good understanding of LENR, any speculation
is possible.  However, a number of very plausible conclusions can
be formulated.  We know that nuclear reactions are not initiated by
ordinary chemical processes.  Too much experience supports this conclusion
for it to be ignored.  When LENR occurs, it does so only when a special
solid environment is present. This environment is necessary to neutralize
the coulomb barrier and allow the nucleus to be accessed.  When this
happens to a radioactive isotope, the excess energy causing the radioactivity
is drained away.  Radioactivity only happens when energy is available
to be trapped temporally in the nucleus.  Normal chemical reactions 
do not have sufficient energy, even if the energy could be deposited in
the nucleus, to result is significant radioactivity.

 



In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be
explained away by the negligible increase in radon that would occur during
the short time span that has occurred since these rounds were fired.

I agree.  However, other variables as noted above are more likely
to have an effect than is LENR.

I agree that other variable are more likely, even much more likely. However,
this will never be known fully so long as our government throws up obstacles
to investigation into ALL possible causes.

BTW it has been estimated that the potential liability of the US in
Yugoslavia and in Iraq, if measured on the same standards that US courts
employ, could increase the national debt significantly. This is a major
reason for our intransigence but the real "blame" goes back to the false
economics of certain Pentagon bureaucrats for giving away DU for this application
(actually the ammunition makers may have been paid in the form of incentives- 
plus getting processed DU for free).

The rounds are used because they work.  The object of war is to destroy
and kill.  The tools of war are designed to destroy very fast. 
The Pentagon and the ammunition makers are only doing what we pay them
to do.  If you have a gripe, you should object to the politicians
who allowed the situation to go so far that war was necessary.  If
we had lost this war because we used less efficient tools, I think many
more objections would now be heard.

 

There is a lot more to this story that has yet to be explored, particularly
the angle of Beryllium, which despite your reservations to the contrary,
is a material that could easily have ended up in this application - as
much of it has appeared on the black market as a cold war legacy from nuclear
dismantling - and it provides significant beneficial physical properties
for armor piercing that few other alloying elements can provide. The (false)
economics implicit in DU usage, i.e. "residual sunk cost" or whatever you
want to call it, applies equally to this material.

Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium because the oxide,
once in the lungs, does not leave, thereby causing irritation and death. 
However, you are correct, as more Be becomes available from decommissioned
nuclear weapons, someone will find a use that will add to our environmental
problems.   Fortunately, the element is not especially poisonous
- for example compared to lead and other such elements common in the environment.

Ed Storms

 

 

Regards,

Jones Beene

 

 



--------------65F640CA1E5FD1A3F9FEBB73--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 15:22:53 2001
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:35:49 -0600:
> [snip]
> >Uranium normally goes to UO2 in air. The issue is how much
> >you might breathe and
> >how long the UO2 stays in the lungs.  Because UO2 is very
> >heavy, most will quickly
> >drop out of the air.
>
> I think this is somewhat over simplified. Dust particles are billions of
> times heavier than a molecule of UO2, yet can remain suspended in the air
> for weeks, if carried by the slightest breeze. Hence the real question is,
> what size dust particles are formed when these shells disintegrate.

You are correct, some of the UO2 powder will be very fine.  However, this will
be a very small fraction of the total.  Fortunately, the smaller the particle,
the faster it will be dissolved by the body.

>
>
> >The small amount that gets into the
> >body will be the
> >issue.   In fact, UO2 is slowly dissolved by the body and
> >the U is mostly
> >eliminated.
>
> Doesn't the rate of elimination depend on the form that the uranium is in?
> Is UO2 dissolved by HCL in the stomach? What about UO2 that ends up in water
> that is drunk by cows? Does it end up in their milk? Shouldn't they be
> testing the food supply in Kosovo as well as just running around measuring
> radioactivity in the husks of burnt out tanks?

Natural uranium is common in drinking water in the US and in most other
places.  No one has raised this as an issue because most of the U goes through
the body and the little that remains is not radioactive enough to cause harm.
The U238 used in bullets is significantly less radioactive than is natural
uranium. A person gets more radiation from the potassium in their body or from
cosmic rays than from the normal body burden of uranium.  Dissolution of UO2 by
HCl in the stomach is too slow to add any U to the body before the oxide is
eliminated intact. The same would apply to cows. Even UO2 in the lungs is
eliminated relatively slowly, but eliminated none the less.  Unless you were
breathing the oxide and the associated radon like a uranium miner, you would
not suffer any consequences from being around uranium.

I realize this is the party line of the US, which normally I do not trust.
However, in this case they are correct.

Ed Storms

>
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 15:57:18 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Rocket Motors
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>Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 14:27:32 -0500
>From: "Francis J. Stenger" 
>Organization: NASA (Retired)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: Horace Heffner 
>Subject: Re: Rocket Motors
>
>Horace wrote:
>>
>> Hey Frank,
>>
>> This question on vortex looks to be right up your alley.  Any comments?
>> I'll pass them along for you if you like.
>
>See if this helps, Horace.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Noel Whitney said:
>> >
>> >can anyone point me please 9n the right direction - Books /Web
>> >sites/individuals etc regarding the relative benefots of various "Shapes"
>> >on Venturi arrangements in above.
>> >I am aware they are often employed to increase the velocity and hence the
>> >thrust for a given mass but where did the shapes and curves come from ???
>> >or was it determined practically ?? I am talking small sizes - typically
>> >50mm dia on the mouth area.
>
>Noel, see if you can find any copies in print of a book called:
>        "Rocket Propulsion Elements" by George P. Sutton.
>My copy is a 1949 edition by John Wiley & Sons, inc. New York.
>That shows you how old I am! :-)
>If you can get a reprint or newer edition of this book, I think you
>can learn a lot from it - even if you're not an engineer.  It has math
>in it, but a lot of the explanations can be understood by lay people.
>You said:
>"...regarding the relative benefots of various "Shapes"
>> >on Venturi arrangements in above.
>> >I am aware they are often employed to increase the velocity and hence the
>> >thrust for a given mass but where did the shapes and curves come from ???
>
>The rocket nozzle is of a general class of nozzle called a "convergent-
>divergent" supersonic nozzle.  That is, the hot, high-pressure gasses
>in the combustion chamber first pass into a necking-down portion of
>the nozzle where they speed up to the speed of sound.  When they reach
>this speed (Mach 1) they are in the "throat" of the nozzle - the
>smallest part.  If you just cut off the nozzle here, the gasses would
>blossom out and exit the nozzle at Mach 1, but no faster.  So, rocket
>nozzles (and many steam turbine nozzles) add an additional section to
>the nozzle called the "divergent" section, which does just that - it
>diverges out into a larger size.  When the gas moves through the
>throat, it begins to further accelerate in the divergent nozzle section
>and more of its heat energy is converted to velocity - it reaches
>supersonic speeds.  Why this happens - why the nozzle first contracts
>and then diverges - is based upon the mathematics of thermodynamics
>in a special field known as "compressible flow".  So, the shape is
>calculated with math and thermodynamics - not guessed at.
>There is a trade off on how long the diverging section  should be.
>At low altitude, when the rocket is just lifting off, you don't want
>to expand the gas below atmospheric pressure - it'll just "separate"
>from the nozzle walls and you will have wasted the weight of the extra
>nozzle.  However, as the rocket nears space vacuum, it pays to have
>much more nozzle expansion where the gas is expanding into a
>semi-vacuum.  You don't want to overdo this either, because soon you
>run out of any benifit from the extra weight of the larger nozzle.
>Much new work is being done on a nozzle called the "aerospike" nozzle,
>I think.  This nozzle is like a convergent-divergent nozzle turned
>inside out!  The engines have a lot of small throats around a ring at
>the outside of the nozzle, and, rather than a diverging skirt, these
>nozzles have a large pointed (or partially pointed) "spike" in the
>center of the exit.  The gas is directed, at Mach 1, out of all the
>little throats and "squirted" against this spike where the gas then
>continues to expand and push on the sides of the spike.
>These nozzles have the advantages of self adjusting to the changing
>air pressure as the rocket climbs, and they tend to be lighter in
>weight than a large "bell" nozzle.
>
>Frank Stenger
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 17:03:30 2001
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At 06:50 AM 1/14/01 -0800, you wrote:
>A good silica brick at ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) can do ~ 250 Btu/lb
>high grade heat storage.

um...  a brick will dissipate off most of its heat into its surroundings in 
less then an hour.   A NiCd will hold its energy for months with no 
significant loss.  A properly designed brushles DC motor can convert this 
electrical energy to Kinetic energy at 90% or better.  The technology not 
only already exists, but has ben around for decades...



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 14 18:11:47 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:07:04 +1100
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:04:21 -0600:
[snip]
>Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium
>because the oxide, once in the lungs, does not leave,
>thereby causing irritation and death.  However, you are
>correct, as more Be becomes available from decommissioned
>nuclear weapons, someone will find a use that will add to
>our environmental problems.   Fortunately, the element is
>not especially poisonous - for example compared to lead and
>other such elements common in the environment.
[snip]
The element itself may not be very toxic, however see
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/2/0,5716,81052+2+78918,00.html .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 07:49:01 2001
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From: "Mike Carrell" 
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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Jones Been wrote:



> In addition to this idea, you have also recently looked into using
> liquid air as an energy storage substitute for batteries.
>
> Looking ahead, have you ever run the numbers on a "push-pull" system
> using both heat storage on one end and cold storage on the other?
>
> It would probably have to work something like this: the brick heats the
> hot end of the Sterling engine and the LN cools the cold end and is then
> expanded through a turbine which is either geared down to supplement the
> output of the Sterling or both have their own generators.
>
> One has to wonder if any synergy exists between two old but still
> marginally viable technologies.

Think carefully. Hot bricks cool down on their own. Liquid gases must be
allowed to vent to stay cool by evaporation. What happens when you leave the
car in the garage over the weekend? Or overnight? What is the energy system
that produces the heat and cold and what is its efficiency?

Do some homework.

Mike Carrell


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From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> Think carefully. Hot bricks cool down on their own. Liquid gases must be
> allowed to vent to stay cool by evaporation. What happens when you leave the
> car in the garage over the weekend? Or overnight?

Plug it in.

> What is the energy system
> that produces the heat and cold and what is its efficiency?

Not my idea, just some "free association" thrown out there for Frederick or for
any others who are working on such a problem. But since you brought it up, have
you ever heard of insulation?

> Do some homework.

Perhaps you should do some imaginative thinking. The objections you mention are
easily solvable engineering details that any undergraduate can address - and
doing so is much better use of your time and mine than harping on obvious
details that are never solved at the first mention of an idea.

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 08:59:31 2001
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Message-Id: <200101151651.LAA22184 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Errors in Science Books
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:47:30 -0400
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A study points to many obvious errors in science textbooks:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/14/textbookerrors.ap/index.html

And that doesn't include the even more outrageous errors such as repeated 
statements that "we know almost everything, e.g.  "we are nearing a 
theory of everything," the Big Bang is almost certainly right, 
Michelson-Morely disproved the aether, Einstein was the gretest genius 
since Isaac Newton, alchemy (i.e. LENR) is impossible, Pons and 
Fleischmann were disproved,  and on and on...

Gene Mallove

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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Since Mike Carrell is so set against using a thermal mass for energy
storage, he might take a look at this approach using less than 1.25
tons of bricks to store up ~ 615,000 btu of off-peak electricity for
comfort heating.

 http://www.steffes.com/ETShome.html

As I said, the Best-Most Expensive storage batteries can do 
15 watt-hours/lb (~ 50 Btu). At ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) a pound
of brick (insulated of course) can store up ~ 250 btu. 

At a rejection temperature of  140 F (600 R) the 
Carnot efficiency is 60%. 

Heat sinking the Stirling  into  32  deg F  (492 R) ice bath
could increase the Carnot Effiency to  ~ 67%.

Allowing for insulation heat loss and a Stirling engine efficiency
of 30% this can still beat battery storage on a cost basis.

Don't Forget the Total Energy (~ 200 Btu)it takes to
generate the 15 watt-hours going into charging the battery.

OTOH, the bricks can be "recharged" by direct combustion 
of natural gas, wood, or a solar concentrator.

Regards,   Frederick



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 10:30:33 2001
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From: Scott Little 
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At 12:28 PM 1/13/01 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I know that Ni is generally considered to be slow to absorb H, but I think
>you need to take this into account nevertheless. Can you actually see how
>much bubble formation is occurring on the Ni?

Can't see inside the cell at all.  It's a completely silvered Dewar and the 
Styrofoam plug in the top obscures that view, too.

The 24 meters of 0.38 mm dia Ni wire amounts to 24.23 grams of Ni or 2.5E23 
atoms of Ni.  At the 0.083 amp current I'm running, it would take 5 days to 
liberate the same number of H atoms, which would be required if the loading 
proceeded all the way to 1:1 H:Ni ratio, which I believe is unheard of for 
Ni.  Anyway, the experiment has now been running for 5.8 days and I still 
have a significantly anomalous H:0 ratio, now running about 1.5:1 as near 
as I can tell (the RGA's sensitivity to H and O does not appear to be 
entirely stable...it has required minor adjustments, <10% relative, to its 
calibration lately - I continue to check the calibration periodically using 
known gas mixtures).

I estimate that, on the surface of the Ni wire cathode, there are about 
5.8E17 Ni atoms "showing".  At the 0.083 amp current, it only takes about 1 
second to produce that many H atoms...i.e. one to "hang on" to every 
surface Ni atom.

Right now, I'm checking the calorimeter (as best I can) using the internal 
calibration resistor to make a standard addition to the input power.  That 
should be complete by tomorrow.  Then I will probably attempt another check 
on the calorimetry using the null balance technique.  I will drive the 
calibration resistor in the reference cell until the delta-T between the 
cells drops to zero...then note the power required to accomplish that.

Meanwhile, I sure would like to figure out why there is excess O2 (or too 
little H2) coming from the cell.  I'm not overly confident in the RGA's 
results....maybe I should try to confirm this observation first...

Vince:  Let's consider what might happen if some of the hydrogen gas 
emerging from the cell is in the form of hydrinos?  How would hydrinos read 
on my mass spectrometer (RGA)?  That instrument bombards the gas molecules 
with 70 eV electrons to ionize them.  If that is sufficient energy to 
ionize a hydrino, then we would expect to see a peak either at 1 (if 
hydrinos are monatomic) or at 2 (if hydrinos are diatomic like ordinary H2).


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 10:32:48 2001
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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Since Mike Carrell is so set against using a thermal mass for energy
>storage, he might take a look at this approach using less than 1.25
>tons of bricks to store up ~ 615,000 btu of off-peak electricity for
>comfort heating.

Storing heat makes sense when one or more of the following conditions are met:

1. The heat sink is large, or massive (an insulated pond, or the Atlantic 
Ocean)

2. Low grade heat is required, for space heating or curing.

3. The heat will be used within a few hours, such as with solar space heating.

4. The Delta T temperature difference between the heat sink and ambient is 
small.

Using stored heat to run a small vehicle would be totally unworkable, and 
absurd, because the Delta T is so large and the heat sink so small. No 
known insulation would make this viable.

- Jed

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From: "Colin Quinney" 
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What are the efficiencies in WHrs per lb utilizing *salt* for thermal
storage? I'm not sure of the correct terminology, but I do recall reading
something about increasing thermal (solar) storage with the change-of-state
in salt solutions sometime back in the 70's. Hydrating the salt gives off
the heat. This was utilized by someone with space considerations who held
that more thermal storage (per weight and volume) was available with this
method than using heated water or heated rocks. I don't know if this is true
or not and I'm also not sure of which salt was used. All I know for sure was
that it was not sodium chloride. Could it have been calcium chloride?

If that is true, why not utilize the exothermic reaction from certain
hydrated salts? I'm sure the process has been improved by now, somewhere..

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Cc: ; 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries


> Since Mike Carrell is so set against using a thermal mass for energy
> storage, he might take a look at this approach using less than 1.25
> tons of bricks to store up ~ 615,000 btu of off-peak electricity for
> comfort heating.
>
>  http://www.steffes.com/ETShome.html
>
> As I said, the Best-Most Expensive storage batteries can do
> 15 watt-hours/lb (~ 50 Btu). At ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) a pound
> of brick (insulated of course) can store up ~ 250 btu.
>
> At a rejection temperature of  140 F (600 R) the
> Carnot efficiency is 60%.
>
> Heat sinking the Stirling  into  32  deg F  (492 R) ice bath
> could increase the Carnot Effiency to  ~ 67%.
>
> Allowing for insulation heat loss and a Stirling engine efficiency
> of 30% this can still beat battery storage on a cost basis.
>
> Don't Forget the Total Energy (~ 200 Btu)it takes to
> generate the 15 watt-hours going into charging the battery.
>
> OTOH, the bricks can be "recharged" by direct combustion
> of natural gas, wood, or a solar concentrator.
>
> Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 11:40:35 2001
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Hi Ed,

I have a few final remarks on this subject. And I ask that you reconsider
(and possibly recant) some of what you said previously regarding LENR - 
as it can only be dubbed as CF heresy  ;-[      
It must have inadvertently slipped out in your haste to get out your previous
post - unless it was indeed what you intended.

Perhaps with your response, we can put this issue to rest - or at least
turn it over to those who may be lucky enough to get funded..

Edmund Storms wrote:

My analysis rests not on how many rounds were spent
but on how much UO2 would have been inhaled by the population.  
Because most rounds miss their target and are subsequently found, as you
note, they would not produce cancer.

There are many vectors that would allow the "found" rounds to become ingested.
For instance, if the villagers hammered of forged them in an effort to
make their flak jackets then this would likely have been done in the confines
of a home perhaps using the same hearth used for cooking and even some
of the same utensils.

Of course the biggest problem that might occur in any scenario involving
found rounds is with children. When lot of poor kids are milling around
with no school and few toys, what do you think they will play with?

Even those that were completely oxidized would have
been dangerous only for a short distance down wind.  The burning rubber
would have been a greater health hazard.

You are willing to accept that particulates from Chernobyl remained airborne
for years but not the dust from these rounds, which by the way, when vaporized
in a metal impact, could have incurred at least as much temperature rise
as existed for the bulk or the UC in the out-of-control russian reactor.
Isn't there an inconsistency in your reasoning here?

The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission
that would not reach the body.

Yes, but U238 exposure may be the least of what we are talking about. If
LENRs have occurred, and if short lived isotopes result (BIG if's, admittedly),
then the effects might look more like massive radium/radon poisoning than
uranium exposure. But there are many other options, and none will be eliminated
unless we do the research.

 The gamma emission is very small and, unless
the jacket were worn night and day, a person would experience no more radiation
than a chest X-ray.  While a pathological fear exists toward radiation,
the fact is that small doses are easily handled by the body.

Yes small doses may indeed be beneficial, but this is not the problem.

If a Bosnian family with a half dozen kids has twenty rounds of DU in
their home, and the DU has previously somehow become activated with short-lived
gaseous isotopes such as xenon or radon, then we are talking "massive"
rather than "incidental" exposure

 







Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short
time is absolutely unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known
information) of  gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.

When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful to include all
variables, not just the one being blamed.  For example, the stress
of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to more disease,
including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also add its effect.

Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally takes for cancer to
set in from these minor contributing causes.

Yes, and it takes just as long for cancer to occur from radiation. 
This region of Europe got a dose from Chennoble and some people have been
eating food containing radioactivity imported from Russia.  I suggest
this might be a better explanation for the cancer.

Or most likely, it (Chernobyl exposure) might be just contributory - having
served as the modality to "prime" the populace for an even bigger dose
- OTOH,  it might just be explanatory.

Either possibility, even if remote, is exactly why we as taxpayers should
insist on funding independent research into both U alloy toxicity and possible
LENR with respect to DU. To paraphrase, "those who forget the lessons of
history are doomed to repeat them."

The US can be counted on to protect its interests
even to the extent of hiding the truth by any means possible, the individual
be damned.

Not if we taxpayers, as the ultimate arbiters (if we choose to be so),
can remain independent of our own government's propaganda - which is there
to protect the entrenched bureaucrats, not the people themselves.

Remaining independent of self-serving pentagon BS is hard enough without
the help of particular scientists, some of whom be struggling for recognition
of their own theories (that have also been rejected by the establishment).

In the absence of hard facts and a good understanding
of LENR, any speculation is possible.  However, a number of very plausible
conclusions can be formulated.  We know that nuclear reactions are
not initiated by ordinary chemical processes.

WHAT !! This is unbelievable, coming from you.  Not only are there
are major studies of chemically induced increased decay rates (I'll find
the citations if you doubt this) but you seem to be rejecting all CF work?

There is no logical distinction that can be made between purely chemical
processes and low energy electrochemical processes. All chemistry is ultimately
electrochemistry. Haven't some even chosen to call LENR by other acronyms
- such as CINR, chemically induced nuclear reactions?

Too much experience supports this conclusion for
it to be ignored.  When LENR occurs, it does so only when a special
solid environment is present.

NO!! Absolutely not. Gas phase is among the earliest P&F confirmations.
Although Scott Little could not confirm the gas phase of Mills work, it
has appeared recently that Mills himself now considers this to be his prime
candidate for a short term demonstration of "free" energy (i.e. the gas
phase reverse gyratron).

Furthermore, a "special" solid environment may be provided in the DU
round.

This environment is necessary to neutralize the coulomb
barrier and allow the nucleus to be accessed.  When this happens to
a radioactive isotope, the excess energy causing the radioactivity is drained
away.  Radioactivity only happens when energy is available to be trapped
temporally in the nucleus.  Normal chemical reactions  do not
have sufficient energy, even if the energy could be deposited in the nucleus,
to result is significant radioactivity.

This remark is unbelievable, considering its source - and absolute CF heresy
for those of us who have tried to  keep an open mind on the breadth
of the entire technology (of whom I had assumed you would have been included).
I would expect it from Park, or from the psicops, but not by you.

 



Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium because the oxide, once in the 
lungs, does not leave, thereby causing irritation and death.  However, you are correct, 
as more Be becomes available from decommissioned nuclear weapons, someone will 
find a use that will add to our environmental problems.   Fortunately, the element is not 
especially poisonous - for example compared to lead and other such elements 
common in the environment.






I spent nearly a decade in the 60's-70's designing and procuring
tooling that used cast beryllium copper inserts. I have been around the
casting and machining of beryllium alloys on a daily basis and I can say
without question that it is both less difficult to handle and fabricate
than U but, on the other hand, could be more toxic if mishandled (ingested)
- death in days rather than years.  The two issues should not be confused.
Furthermore, who knows, without some research, if a synergistic toxicity
exists in BeU alloy or other U alloy?

Regards,

Jones Beene

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
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At 12:22 PM 1/15/1, Scott Little wrote:

[snip]
>Vince:  Let's consider what might happen if some of the hydrogen gas
>emerging from the cell is in the form of hydrinos?  How would hydrinos read
>on my mass spectrometer (RGA)?  That instrument bombards the gas molecules
>with 70 eV electrons to ionize them.  If that is sufficient energy to
>ionize a hydrino, then we would expect to see a peak either at 1 (if
>hydrinos are monatomic) or at 2 (if hydrinos are diatomic like ordinary H2).


If hydrinos can form, then it is possible that they can leave the cell,
diffusing at a high rate right through thin plastic walls, etc. due to
their small size.

It seems likely that 70 eV electrons may not be capable of ionizing hydrino
gas in the same proportion as hydrogen gas.  Since exactly the right energy
for formation is required, exactly the right energy for inoization should
be required also.

It is also a way out thought that the affinity of hydrogen for electrons is
0.754201 eV., but who knows what the affinity of hydrinos is?  I would
think, the hydrino being smaller, and its waveform much smaller than the
incident electrons, that the affinitiy would be about zero, but who knows?
It could be that the hydrions attract electrons and thus are accelerated
the wrong way.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 11:56:41 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jed Rothwell 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries

Jed wrote:


> Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >Since Mike Carrell is so set against using a thermal mass for energy
> >storage, he might take a look at this approach using less than 1.25
> >tons of bricks to store up ~ 615,000 btu of off-peak electricity for
> >comfort heating.
> 
> Storing heat makes sense when one or more of the following conditions are met:

Horse Feathers!  LN2, LH2, LO2, are stored in Dewar-Type containers that
gain minute quantities of heat. A similar approach for storing heat in a solid
or a Phase Change material is a minor engineering effort.

The "Solar Two" solar tower furnace storage developed by Sandia Labs uses a mix of 
Sodium and Potassium Nitrate (salts) for a thermal arrest at ~ 1100 Deg R
(~ 640 F) ~158 btu/lb, but they push the nitrate salt temperature up to
1040 F (1500 R).

I could charge up ~ 800 pounds of bricks to 1500 R (~200,000 btu) which
would be equivalent to the power plant charging of 15 Kw-hr (1,000 lbs)
of storage batteries, (150,000 btu plus transmission and charging losses) 
with a natural gas or propane flame while you were thinking about it. 
And get ~ 20 horsepower-hours  (~15 Kw)of vehicle work out of it 
(at a fraction of the cost) to boot.


> 
> 1. The heat sink is large, or massive (an insulated pond, or the Atlantic 
> Ocean)
> 
> 2. Low grade heat is required, for space heating or curing.
> 
> 3. The heat will be used within a few hours, such as with solar space heating.
> 
> 4. The Delta T temperature difference between the heat sink and ambient is 
> small.
> 
> Using stored heat to run a small vehicle would be totally unworkable, and 
> absurd, because the Delta T is so large and the heat sink so small. No 
> known insulation would make this viable.

I disagree.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 12:03:36 2001
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Colin Quinney 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries

Colin wrote:


> What are the efficiencies in WHrs per lb utilizing *salt* for thermal
> storage? I'm not sure of the correct terminology, but I do recall reading
> something about increasing thermal (solar) storage with the change-of-state
> in salt solutions sometime back in the 70's. Hydrating the salt gives off
> the heat. This was utilized by someone with space considerations who held
> that more thermal storage (per weight and volume) was available with this
> method than using heated water or heated rocks. I don't know if this is true
> or not and I'm also not sure of which salt was used. All I know for sure was
> that it was not sodium chloride. Could it have been calcium chloride?

Sandia is using a mix of Potassium and Sodium Nitrate. KNO3 & NaNO3

Also used in gun powder.  :-)

Search the web for "Solar Two" the online 10 megawatt solar power plant near
Barstow Ca.
> 
> If that is true, why not utilize the exothermic reaction from certain
> hydrated salts? I'm sure the process has been improved by now, somewhere..

Lithium Nitrate fuses at 250 C and will "store about 145 btu/lb about
the same as the heat of fusion of ice.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 



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Here is the link to the Solar Two facility, Colin.

 http://www.sandia.gov/LabNews/LN06-21-96/barstow.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 12:36:36 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 07:22:07 +1100
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:22:03 -0600:
[snip]
>Vince:  Let's consider what might happen if some of the hydrogen gas 
>emerging from the cell is in the form of hydrinos?  How would hydrinos read 
>on my mass spectrometer (RGA)?  That instrument bombards the gas molecules 
>with 70 eV electrons to ionize them.  If that is sufficient energy to 
>ionize a hydrino, then we would expect to see a peak either at 1 (if 
>hydrinos are monatomic) or at 2 (if hydrinos are diatomic like ordinary H2).
[snip]
You might like to try a simple assumption:
Assume that all the missing hydrogen is in the form of hydrinos, and that
the formation of each one released at least 40.8 eV. How does that tally
with your heat measurements? (A hydrino comprises a single hydrogen atom,
the molecule is a dihydrino molecule).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Scott Little wrote:

> At 12:28 PM 1/13/01 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> >I know that Ni is generally considered to be slow to absorb H, but I think
> >you need to take this into account nevertheless. Can you actually see how
> >much bubble formation is occurring on the Ni?
>
> Can't see inside the cell at all.  It's a completely silvered Dewar and the
> Styrofoam plug in the top obscures that view, too.
>
> The 24 meters of 0.38 mm dia Ni wire amounts to 24.23 grams of Ni or 2.5E23
> atoms of Ni.  At the 0.083 amp current I'm running, it would take 5 days to
> liberate the same number of H atoms, which would be required if the loading
> proceeded all the way to 1:1 H:Ni ratio, which I believe is unheard of for
> Ni.  Anyway, the experiment has now been running for 5.8 days and I still
> have a significantly anomalous H:0 ratio, now running about 1.5:1 as near
> as I can tell (the RGA's sensitivity to H and O does not appear to be
> entirely stable...it has required minor adjustments, <10% relative, to its
> calibration lately - I continue to check the calibration periodically using
> known gas mixtures).

I assume you are measuring the H2+ and O2+ peaks.  I say this because the H+
and O+ peaks will be strongly affected by fragmentation of other molecules.
This being assumed, it looks like your Ni cathode is actually absorbing
hydrogen.  Although Ni is slow to hydride because of a very low diffusion rate
through the hydride as well as through the oxide surface, once cracking starts
the rate is much faster and can, if I remember correctly, go to to high values
during electrolysis.  Normal gas pressures, however, produce very little
solubility.  If hydriding actually occurred, you should see blistering on the
surface when you have a chance to examine the Ni wire.

>
>
> I estimate that, on the surface of the Ni wire cathode, there are about
> 5.8E17 Ni atoms "showing".  At the 0.083 amp current, it only takes about 1
> second to produce that many H atoms...i.e. one to "hang on" to every
> surface Ni atom.
>
> Right now, I'm checking the calorimeter (as best I can) using the internal
> calibration resistor to make a standard addition to the input power.  That
> should be complete by tomorrow.  Then I will probably attempt another check
> on the calorimetry using the null balance technique.  I will drive the
> calibration resistor in the reference cell until the delta-T between the
> cells drops to zero...then note the power required to accomplish that.
>
> Meanwhile, I sure would like to figure out why there is excess O2 (or too
> little H2) coming from the cell.  I'm not overly confident in the RGA's
> results....maybe I should try to confirm this observation first...

Good idea, but be sure to calibrate with H2 and O2, each containing H2O and
CO2.

>
>
> Vince:  Let's consider what might happen if some of the hydrogen gas
> emerging from the cell is in the form of hydrinos?  How would hydrinos read
> on my mass spectrometer (RGA)?  That instrument bombards the gas molecules
> with 70 eV electrons to ionize them.  If that is sufficient energy to
> ionize a hydrino, then we would expect to see a peak either at 1 (if
> hydrinos are monatomic) or at 2 (if hydrinos are diatomic like ordinary H2).

I would expect the cross section for ionization to be much smaller than normal
H even if the electrons had sufficient energy.  After all, these atoms are
supposed to be very small.

Ed Storms

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From: "Tz'Akh" 
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" 
Subject: orgone accumulator materials?
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:44:57 -0500
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i have heard of different materials for orgone accumulators taht supposedly
are smaller/thinner and generate more orgone than standard accumulators.  is
there such substances, and does anyoen know about how to make them?  (or
otherwise get them)



thanks
-Tz'Akh

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 13:15:35 2001
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From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
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At 10:58 AM 1/15/01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>It seems likely that 70 eV electrons may not be capable of ionizing hydrino
>gas in the same proportion as hydrogen gas.  Since exactly the right energy
>for formation is required, exactly the right energy for inoization should
>be required also.

That's not the case for everything else.  Only EXCESS energy is required 
for ionization.  The departing electron takes away the excess as kinetic 
energy.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:36:45 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Assume that all the missing hydrogen is in the form of hydrinos, and that
> the formation of each one released at least 40.8 eV. How does that tally
> with your heat measurements?

Robin, where does the 40.8 ev come from? You seem to be adding up two unrelated
ionization energies.

If there is excess heat coming from Mills' technique, isn't it supposed to be
instigated in the first place by a 27.2 ev photon or multiple thereof,  that is
absorbed by K ions going from + to ++ as the H atom "shrinks" to a Hydrino.

Some percentage of these K ions should then re-radiate the 27.2 ev photon (and
there is probably no other way this exact energy could appear) - so why not look
for it? It's probably a lot easier than precise calorimetry if you just want to
convince yourself that the Mills reaction is taking place.

Even if most of these high UV photons will be thermalized by the cell and
converted down to IR, i.e. heat, some should escape - depending on the
transparency of the Dewar materials for this energy photon.

Regards,

Jones Beene

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From: "Colin Quinney" 
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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Hi Fred,

Thanks, I saw the Sandia site you mentioned. Fascinating stuff. Molton salt
at 1100 degrees F. is great for land based heat storage, and competitive
with coal, gas etc.. But wouldn't that be too hot for a small transport
device? If we ever got into an accident it would just melt or combust
everything in it's path. (spontaneous "IT" combustion ;-)

I looked around the Internet for something cooler. How about utilizing
something like Glauber salt? (Na2SO4.10H2O)
50 times the heat capacity of concrete   384 MJ/m3.
Melting point ~90 degrees F.

http://faculty.millikin.edu/~jaskill.nsm.faculty.mu/heatstorage.html
"Compared to concrete (7.75 MJ/m3 for a DT = 1oC), Glauber salt is a much
more efficient way of storing heat. Its drawback is that it is much more
expensive than concrete. "
(Cost. $10.00 per Kgm.)

Colin

Fred wrote:
>
> Sandia is using a mix of Potassium and Sodium Nitrate. KNO3 & NaNO3
>
> Also used in gun powder.  :-)
>
> Search the web for "Solar Two" the online 10 megawatt solar power plant
near
> Barstow Ca.
> >
> > If that is true, why not utilize the exothermic reaction from certain
> > hydrated salts? I'm sure the process has been improved by now,
somewhere..
>
> Lithium Nitrate fuses at 250 C and will "store about 145 btu/lb about
> the same as the heat of fusion of ice.
>
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Colin Quinney


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Jones Beene wrote:

> Hi Ed,
>
> I have a few final remarks on this subject. And I ask that
> you reconsider (and possibly recant) some of what you said
> previously regarding LENR -  as it can only be dubbed as
> CF heresy  ;-[       It must have inadvertently slipped
> out in your haste to get out your previous post - unless
> it was indeed what you intended.
>
> Perhaps with your response, we can put this issue to rest
> - or at least turn it over to those who may be lucky
> enough to get funded..
>
> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
>> My analysis rests not on how many rounds were spent but
>> on how much UO2 would have been inhaled by the
>> population.   Because most rounds miss their target and
>> are subsequently found, as you note, they would not
>> produce cancer.
>
> There are many vectors that would allow the "found" rounds
> to become ingested. For instance, if the villagers
> hammered of forged them in an effort to make their flak
> jackets then this would likely have been done in the
> confines of a home perhaps using the same hearth used for
> cooking and even some of the same utensils.

Good point but based on an assumption.  Actually, such
rounds would be difficult to pound out because the material
would be, as you suggest, very hard and probably brittle
besides.  In any case, if someone tried this, sparks of UO2
would be generated and these could be breathed.

On the other hand, according to the news, the Italians are
upset because some of their men have come down with
leukemia.  The problem then remains how to explain this
based on uranium.  So far I have not seen any reports an
uranium analysis of the sick people, a very easy process
that would quickly answer the question.

>
>
> Of course the biggest problem that might occur in any
> scenario involving found rounds is with children. When lot
> of poor kids are milling around with no school and few
> toys, what do you think they will play with?
>
>> Even those that were completely oxidized would have been
>> dangerous only for a short distance down wind.  The
>> burning rubber would have been a greater health hazard.
>
> You are willing to accept that particulates from Chernobyl
> remained airborne for years but not the dust from these
> rounds, which by the way, when vaporized in a metal
> impact, could have incurred at least as much temperature
> rise as existed for the bulk or the UC in the
> out-of-control russian reactor. Isn't there an
> inconsistency in your reasoning here?

No, I'm not assuming the Chernobyl dust remained air borne
any longer than the UO2.  The difference being that the dust
from Chernobyl was wide spread, affecting many people, and
lasted for days.  In addition, the isotopes in the Chernobyl
dust were much more deadly than uranium. A round that was
lucky enough to hit its target would have affected only a
few people who were  immediately down wind and then for only
a short time.   The issue is a matter of scale and type of
radioactivity.

>
>
>> The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission that
>> would not reach the body.
>
> Yes, but U238 exposure may be the least of what we are
> talking about. If LENRs have occurred, and if short lived
> isotopes result (BIG if's, admittedly), then the effects
> might look more like massive radium/radon poisoning than
> uranium exposure. But there are many other options, and
> none will be eliminated unless we do the research.

Granted, no question can be answered by debate alone.
However, some facts do help guide the research.  Radium and
radon are especially dangerous within the body because they
are very active alpha emitters.  Your concern could be
quickly addressed by simply testing the environment for
alpha emitters.  I suppose we will just have to wait to see
if the Yugoslaves measure and post such information.

>
>
>>  The gamma emission is very small and, unless the jacket
>> were worn night and day, a person would experience no
>> more radiation than a chest X-ray.  While a pathological
>> fear exists toward radiation, the fact is that small
>> doses are easily handled by the body.
>
> Yes small doses may indeed be beneficial, but this is not
> the problem.
>
> If a Bosnian family with a half dozen kids has twenty
> rounds of DU in their home, and the DU has previously
> somehow become activated with short-lived gaseous isotopes
> such as xenon or radon, then we are talking "massive"
> rather than "incidental" exposure

However, these would only be "activated" by your assumption
if they were exposed to the high temperatures of hitting a
target.  Uranium just sitting around is not changed, except
to build up a concentration of daughter products.  I had
depleted uranium at LANL for years that did not "activate".

>> >> > Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short
>> >> > time is absolutely unprecedented and points either
>> >> > to a cover-up (of known information) of  gigantic
>> >> > proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.
>> >>
According to my sources, at least this percentage of any
population has cancer at any one time.  The question is,
"Did the amount of cancer increase and can other known
causes be ruled out"?

>> >>  When evaluating such data, one needs to be very
>> >>  careful to include all variables, not just the one
>> >>  being blamed.  For example, the stress of the war
>> >>  will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to
>> >>  more disease, including cancer.  The resulting bad
>> >>  diet will also add its effect.
>> >
>> > Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally
>> > takes for cancer to set in from these minor
>> > contributing causes.
>>
>> Yes, and it takes just as long for cancer to occur from
>> radiation.  This region of Europe got a dose from
>> Chennoble and some people have been eating food
>> containing radioactivity imported from Russia.  I
>> suggest this might be a better explanation for the
>> cancer.
>
> Or most likely, it (Chernobyl exposure) might be just
> contributory - having served as the modality to "prime"
> the populace for an even bigger dose - OTOH,  it might
> just be explanatory.
>
> Either possibility, even if remote, is exactly why we as
> taxpayers should insist on funding independent research
> into both U alloy toxicity and possible LENR with respect
> to DU. To paraphrase, "those who forget the lessons of
> history are doomed to repeat them."

If you are proposing this issue to be a reason to fund LENR
research, I would not object, except to point out that it is
a considerable stretch.  I would prefer the reason being to
clean up the considerable radioactivity in storage.

>
>
>> The US can be counted on to protect its interests even
>> to the extent of hiding the truth by any means possible,
>> the individual be damned.
>
> Not if we taxpayers, as the ultimate arbiters (if we
> choose to be so), can remain independent of our own
> government's propaganda - which is there to protect the
> entrenched bureaucrats, not the people themselves.
>
> Remaining independent of self-serving pentagon BS is hard
> enough without the help of particular scientists, some of
> whom be struggling for recognition of their own theories
> (that have also been rejected by the establishment).

Are you referring to me?

>
>
>> In the absence of hard facts and a good understanding of
>> LENR, any speculation is possible.  However, a number of
>> very plausible conclusions can be formulated.  We know
>> that nuclear reactions are not initiated by ordinary
>> chemical processes.
>
> WHAT !! This is unbelievable, coming from you.  Not only
> are there are major studies of chemically induced
> increased decay rates (I'll find the citations if you
> doubt this) but you seem to be rejecting all CF work?

Whoo - let's back up a bit.  First of all conventional,
chemically induced decay rates are in the neighborhood of a
few percent.  In addition, they only have been found to work
on a few IT transitions and to a lesser extent on a few
alpha emitters.  LENR proposes to accelerate the process so
that it becomes essentially instantaneous.  How do you
suppose nature accomplishes this task?

As for rejecting all CF work, I do not see how my comment
leads to this conclusion.  The CF effect is real and the
problem remains to explain how it is accomplished by
nature.  Obviously, none of these anomalous effects occur
under "normal" conditions.  Otherwise, they would have been
seen far sooner and would be easy to duplicate.  The
question is, "What very abnormal conditions are required to
make the effect work"?  I have my ideas about this along
with hundreds of other people.  So far, no one has the final
answer, although some seem more reasonable than others.

>
>
> There is no logical distinction that can be made between
> purely chemical processes and low energy electrochemical
> processes. All chemistry is ultimately electrochemistry.
> Haven't some even chosen to call LENR by other acronyms -
> such as CINR, chemically induced nuclear reactions?

I call it CANR (Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions).
This does not imply that only chemistry is involved.  It
implies only that the chemical structure is important to
accomplish the nuclear process.

Saying that all chemistry is ultimately electrochemistry is
like saying that all science is ultimately physics.  Neither
statement adds much insight.

>
>
>> Too much experience supports this conclusion for it to
>> be ignored.  When LENR occurs, it does so only when a
>> special solid environment is present.
>
> NO!! Absolutely not. Gas phase is among the earliest P&F
> confirmations. Although Scott Little could not confirm the
> gas phase of Mills work, it has appeared recently that
> Mills himself now considers this to be his prime candidate
> for a short term demonstration of "free" energy (i.e. the
> gas phase reverse gyratron).

The Mills work is not cold fusion.  The hydrino might lead
to a nuclear reaction, but this is a secondary process.  In
contrast, CF produces a nuclear reaction without hydrino
formation and as the primary process.

>
>
> Furthermore, a "special" solid environment may be provided
> in the DU round.
>
>> This environment is necessary to neutralize the coulomb
>> barrier and allow the nucleus to be accessed.  When this
>> happens to a radioactive isotope, the excess energy
>> causing the radioactivity is drained away.
>> Radioactivity only happens when energy is available to
>> be trapped temporally in the nucleus.  Normal chemical
>> reactions  do not have sufficient energy, even if the
>> energy could be deposited in the nucleus, to result is
>> significant radioactivity.
>
> This remark is unbelievable, considering its source - and
> absolute CF heresy for those of us who have tried to  keep
> an open mind on the breadth of the entire technology (of
> whom I had assumed you would have been included). I would
> expect it from Park, or from the psicops, but not by you.

Here we seem to have a different understanding of
conventional science as well as a different understanding of
CF.  When CF is eventually understood, I believe the
understanding will show a clear relationship with what we
already know about nature.  After all, we know a great deal
about the nucleus and its energy release mechanism, i.e.
radioactivity.  The CF process only allows something we
understand to transform into something we also understand,
i.e. deuterium to become helium to cite one example.  The
process of transformation is the thing that is in dispute.
On the other hand, if you throw out all knowledge and
attempt to start from scratch, you not only will be at the
job forever, but you will make the average scientist think
don't know what you are doing.

>
>
>
>> Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium because the oxide, once in the
>> lungs, does not leave, thereby causing irritation and death.  However, you are correct,
>> as more Be becomes available from decommissioned nuclear weapons, someone will
>> find a use that will add to our environmental problems.   Fortunately, the element is not
>> especially poisonous - for example compared to lead and other such elements
>> common in the environment.
>>
>
> I spent nearly a decade in the 60's-70's designing and
> procuring tooling that used cast beryllium copper inserts.
> I have been around the casting and machining of beryllium
> alloys on a daily basis and I can say without question
> that it is both less difficult to handle and fabricate
> than U but, on the other hand, could be more toxic if
> mishandled (ingested) - death in days rather than years.
> The two issues should not be confused. Furthermore, who
> knows, without some research, if a synergistic toxicity
> exists in BeU alloy or other U alloy?

I suggest the Cu-Be alloys are much less toxic than pure Be,
hence are easier to handle.  At LANL, a special machine shop
was required to machine pure Be and this was very
expensive.  There is no question that both Be and U are to
be avoided.  However, the question remains whether their
presence in the environment is a sufficient hazard to
warrant special treatment, especially in view of many other
more toxic hazards being present and needing attention.  Of
course, this is a value judgment we could debate forever.

Ed Storms


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Jones Beene wrote:

Hi Ed,

I have a few final remarks on this subject. And I ask that you reconsider
(and possibly recant) some of what you said previously regarding LENR - 
as it can only be dubbed as CF heresy  ;-[      
It must have inadvertently slipped out in your haste to get out your previous
post - unless it was indeed what you intended.

Perhaps with your response, we can put this issue to rest - or at least
turn it over to those who may be lucky enough to get funded..

Edmund Storms wrote:

My analysis rests not on how many rounds were spent
but on how much UO2 would have been inhaled by the population.  
Because most rounds miss their target and are subsequently found, as you
note, they would not produce cancer.

There are many vectors that would allow the "found" rounds to become ingested.
For instance, if the villagers hammered of forged them in an effort to
make their flak jackets then this would likely have been done in the confines
of a home perhaps using the same hearth used for cooking and even some
of the same utensils.

Good point but based on an assumption.  Actually, such rounds would
be difficult to pound out because the material would be, as you suggest,
very hard and probably brittle besides.  In any case, if someone tried
this, sparks of UO2 would be generated and these could be breathed.

On the other hand, according to the news, the Italians are upset because
some of their men have come down with leukemia.  The problem then
remains how to explain this based on uranium.  So far I have not seen
any reports an uranium analysis of the sick people, a very easy process
that would quickly answer the question.

 

Of course the biggest problem that might occur in any scenario involving
found rounds is with children. When lot of poor kids are milling around
with no school and few toys, what do you think they will play with?

Even those that were completely oxidized would have
been dangerous only for a short distance down wind.  The burning rubber
would have been a greater health hazard.

You are willing to accept that particulates from Chernobyl remained airborne
for years but not the dust from these rounds, which by the way, when vaporized
in a metal impact, could have incurred at least as much temperature rise
as existed for the bulk or the UC in the out-of-control russian reactor.
Isn't there an inconsistency in your reasoning here?

No, I'm not assuming the Chernobyl dust remained air borne any longer than
the UO2.  The difference being that the dust from Chernobyl was wide
spread, affecting many people, and lasted for days.  In addition,
the isotopes in the Chernobyl dust were much more deadly than uranium.
A round that was lucky enough to hit its target would have affected only
a few people who were  immediately down wind and then for only a short
time.   The issue is a matter of scale and type of radioactivity.

 

The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission
that would not reach the body.

Yes, but U238 exposure may be the least of what we are talking about. If
LENRs have occurred, and if short lived isotopes result (BIG if's, admittedly),
then the effects might look more like massive radium/radon poisoning than
uranium exposure. But there are many other options, and none will be eliminated
unless we do the research.

Granted, no question can be answered by debate alone.  However, some
facts do help guide the research.  Radium and radon are especially
dangerous within the body because they are very active alpha emitters. 
Your concern could be quickly addressed by simply testing the environment
for alpha emitters.  I suppose we will just have to wait to see if
the Yugoslaves measure and post such information.

 

 The gamma emission is very small and, unless
the jacket were worn night and day, a person would experience no more radiation
than a chest X-ray.  While a pathological fear exists toward radiation,
the fact is that small doses are easily handled by the body.

Yes small doses may indeed be beneficial, but this is not the problem.

If a Bosnian family with a half dozen kids has twenty rounds of DU in
their home, and the DU has previously somehow become activated with short-lived
gaseous isotopes such as xenon or radon, then we are talking "massive"
rather than "incidental" exposure

However, these would only be "activated" by your assumption if they were
exposed to the high temperatures of hitting a target.  Uranium just
sitting around is not changed, except to build up a concentration of daughter
products.  I had depleted uranium at LANL for years that did not "activate".









Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short
time is absolutely unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known
information) of  gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.









According to my sources, at least this percentage of any population has
cancer at any one time.  The question is, "Did the amount of cancer
increase and can other known causes be ruled out"?







When evaluating such data, one needs to be very careful
to include all variables, not just the one being blamed.  For example,
the stress of the war will weaken the immune system, thereby leading to
more disease, including cancer.  The resulting bad diet will also
add its effect.

Agreed, but you are forgetting how long it normally takes for cancer to
set in from these minor contributing causes.

Yes, and it takes just as long for cancer to occur from radiation. 
This region of Europe got a dose from Chennoble and some people have been
eating food containing radioactivity imported from Russia.  I suggest
this might be a better explanation for the cancer.

Or most likely, it (Chernobyl exposure) might be just contributory - having
served as the modality to "prime" the populace for an even bigger dose
- OTOH,  it might just be explanatory.

Either possibility, even if remote, is exactly why we as taxpayers should
insist on funding independent research into both U alloy toxicity and possible
LENR with respect to DU. To paraphrase, "those who forget the lessons of
history are doomed to repeat them."

If you are proposing this issue to be a reason to fund LENR research, I
would not object, except to point out that it is a considerable stretch. 
I would prefer the reason being to clean up the considerable radioactivity
in storage.

 

The US can be counted on to protect its interests
even to the extent of hiding the truth by any means possible, the individual
be damned.

Not if we taxpayers, as the ultimate arbiters (if we choose to be so),
can remain independent of our own government's propaganda - which is there
to protect the entrenched bureaucrats, not the people themselves.

Remaining independent of self-serving pentagon BS is hard enough without
the help of particular scientists, some of whom be struggling for recognition
of their own theories (that have also been rejected by the establishment).

Are you referring to me?

 

In the absence of hard facts and a good understanding
of LENR, any speculation is possible.  However, a number of very plausible
conclusions can be formulated.  We know that nuclear reactions are
not initiated by ordinary chemical processes.

WHAT !! This is unbelievable, coming from you.  Not only are there
are major studies of chemically induced increased decay rates (I'll find
the citations if you doubt this) but you seem to be rejecting all CF work?

Whoo - let's back up a bit.  First of all conventional, chemically
induced decay rates are in the neighborhood of a few percent.  In
addition, they only have been found to work on a few IT transitions and
to a lesser extent on a few alpha emitters.  LENR proposes to accelerate
the process so that it becomes essentially instantaneous.  How do
you suppose nature accomplishes this task?

As for rejecting all CF work, I do not see how my comment leads to this
conclusion.  The CF effect is real and the problem remains to explain
how it is accomplished by nature.  Obviously, none of these anomalous
effects occur under "normal" conditions.  Otherwise, they would have
been seen far sooner and would be easy to duplicate.  The question
is, "What very abnormal conditions are required to make the effect work"? 
I have my ideas about this along with hundreds of other people.  So
far, no one has the final answer, although some seem more reasonable than
others.

 

There is no logical distinction that can be made between purely chemical
processes and low energy electrochemical processes. All chemistry is ultimately
electrochemistry. Haven't some even chosen to call LENR by other acronyms
- such as CINR, chemically induced nuclear reactions?

I call it CANR (Chemically Assisted Nuclear Reactions).  This does
not imply that only chemistry is involved.  It implies only that the
chemical structure is important to accomplish the nuclear process.

Saying that all chemistry is ultimately electrochemistry is like saying
that all science is ultimately physics.  Neither statement adds much
insight.

 

Too much experience supports this conclusion for
it to be ignored.  When LENR occurs, it does so only when a special
solid environment is present.

NO!! Absolutely not. Gas phase is among the earliest P&F confirmations.
Although Scott Little could not confirm the gas phase of Mills work, it
has appeared recently that Mills himself now considers this to be his prime
candidate for a short term demonstration of "free" energy (i.e. the gas
phase reverse gyratron).

The Mills work is not cold fusion.  The hydrino might lead to a nuclear
reaction, but this is a secondary process.  In contrast, CF produces
a nuclear reaction without hydrino formation and as the primary process.

 

Furthermore, a "special" solid environment may be provided in the DU
round.

This environment is necessary to neutralize the coulomb
barrier and allow the nucleus to be accessed.  When this happens to
a radioactive isotope, the excess energy causing the radioactivity is drained
away.  Radioactivity only happens when energy is available to be trapped
temporally in the nucleus.  Normal chemical reactions  do not
have sufficient energy, even if the energy could be deposited in the nucleus,
to result is significant radioactivity.

This remark is unbelievable, considering its source - and absolute CF heresy
for those of us who have tried to  keep an open mind on the breadth
of the entire technology (of whom I had assumed you would have been included).
I would expect it from Park, or from the psicops, but not by you.

Here we seem to have a different understanding of conventional science
as well as a different understanding of CF.  When CF is eventually
understood, I believe the understanding will show a clear relationship
with what we already know about nature.  After all, we know a great
deal about the nucleus and its energy release mechanism, i.e. radioactivity. 
The CF process only allows something we understand to transform into something
we also understand, i.e. deuterium to become helium to cite one example. 
The process of transformation is the thing that is in dispute.  On
the other hand, if you throw out all knowledge and attempt to start from
scratch, you not only will be at the job forever, but you will make the
average scientist think don't know what you are doing.

 

 



Beryllium is more difficult to handle than is uranium because the oxide, once in the 
lungs, does not leave, thereby causing irritation and death.  However, you are correct, 
as more Be becomes available from decommissioned nuclear weapons, someone will 
find a use that will add to our environmental problems.   Fortunately, the element is not 
especially poisonous - for example compared to lead and other such elements 
common in the environment.






I spent nearly a decade in the 60's-70's designing and procuring
tooling that used cast beryllium copper inserts. I have been around the
casting and machining of beryllium alloys on a daily basis and I can say
without question that it is both less difficult to handle and fabricate
than U but, on the other hand, could be more toxic if mishandled (ingested)
- death in days rather than years.  The two issues should not be confused.
Furthermore, who knows, without some research, if a synergistic toxicity
exists in BeU alloy or other U alloy?

I suggest the Cu-Be alloys are much less toxic than pure Be, hence are
easier to handle.  At LANL, a special machine shop was required to
machine pure Be and this was very expensive.  There is no question
that both Be and U are to be avoided.  However, the question remains
whether their presence in the environment is a sufficient hazard to warrant
special treatment, especially in view of many other more toxic hazards
being present and needing attention.  Of course, this is a value judgment
we could debate forever.

Ed Storms

 

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 15:32:51 2001
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To: 
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries


> FWIW, Colin.
> 
> Lithium Nitrate LiNO3 melts/freezes at 250 C (482 F or 942 R)
> with a heat of fusion of 87.7 cal/gram (158 btu/lb).
> 
> LiOH + HNO3 ---> LiNO3 + H2O.
> 
> Figuring a heat rejection temperature of 100 F (560 R) the 
> Carnot Efficiency (942-560)/942 = 40.6 %
> 
> With a good thermal storage and Stirling engine design, one
> should be able to get  32 %  (50 btu) out of each pound of thermal 
> storage as work which would put it even up with the best
> storage batteries at 15 watt/hr (50 btu) per pound.
> 
> Using biomass, solar, fossil (methane, propane) fuel heat to "charge" the thermal
> storage bed would make it more energy efficient that 
> charging up batteries from the grid.
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
>  
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 15:32:55 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Test
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Testing ignore


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 16:38:00 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Found some thermal data for Sodium and Potassium Nitrate:

               M.P. Deg C       Heat of Fusion Cal/Gram (Btu/lb)

KNO3      338                              28.1  (50.6)

NaNO3    310                              44.2   (79.6)


The NaNO3  rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R) gives a Carnot efficiency 
of 46.66% at it's 590 F  (1050 R)melting point.

The KNO3 rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R)gives a Carnot Efficiency
of  49% at it's 640 F (1100 R) melting point.

One can see why Sandia chose a mix of these for the "Solar Two"
power tower storage.

Easy to make these using nitric acid  and potassium and/or sodium carbonates.

Make sense, Jones B.?

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 16:39:12 2001
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Is DU Toxic?
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Jones Beene wrote;
>
>Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely 
>unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information) 
>of  gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.
>
>As I stated in a previous post there is a small chance that the 
>anomaly can be explained by the increase in radioactivity of DU due 
>to LENR.
>
>In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be explained away by 
>the negligible increase in radon that would occur during the short 
>time span that has occurred since these rounds were fired.

This reminds me of John (?) Sternglass's books. One of which is Low 
Level Radiation I read it and became totally convinced that we ( the 
human race ) had committed suicide by poisoning ourselves with 
radioactive elements. As I have pointed out previously on this forum, 
we dumped several tons of plutonium dust into the atmosphere in open 
A bomb testing.

BTW is the word radioneuclide correct when referring radioactive 
isotopes? I have mentioned Sternglass's books to knowledgeable people 
and heard them ridicule his conclusions, I don't know, it made 
perfect sense to me.

However here we are almost 30 years later and most of us are still 
alive. Maybe all the weaklings are killed off right away, leading to 
the initial surge.

The more I study it the more convinced I am that cancer is primarily 
a result of eating a diet that is too high in acid forming foods, and 
having too few antioxidants and fiber in the diet.

Ed Stoms continued:

As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation has always 
produced nonradioactive isotopes.  That is why it is being proposed 
as a method to detoxify radioactive waste.

Ed;

Do you know that LENR is real? Have you investigated Paul Brown's 
http://www.nucsol.com claims? What do you think about Joe Champion's 
claims? is it possible that the oxidation of carbon, and sulfur in 
the presence of the nitrates causes some high spinangle gold to be 
converted into metalic gold?

Then Jones Breen continued:

Prior to this (when hostilities were still going on) many nearly 
intact DU rounds were collected by the population by the thousands 
and sewn into flak jackets that the civilians would wear to market to 
protect against snipers. This close contact to DU, even if it were 
only for a few hours a day is one problem.

I'd ask what kind of an idiot would sew DU rounds into his jacket, 
but I know the answer. Someone who was afraid of hot lead poisoning, 
and was desperate.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 16:41:58 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" 
To: "Frederick Sparber" 
Cc: 
References: <011b01c07f4e$abbf6e00$e68f85ce fjsparber>
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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Hi Fred,

Now we just have to design it into a small scooter or a motorcycle and we're
off to the races. It's certainly environmentally friendly. How difficult
would it be to build one? I understand that Stirling engines are fairly
expensive. Can we add wings? THAT would sure change the cities. Why then
we'd need complex radar and electronics on-board just for the auto-avoidance
mechanisms. I bet it sure would look funny :)

Best Regards,
Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 6:55 PM
Subject: Fw: Bricks vs Batteries


>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Frederick Sparber 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 3:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
>
>
> > FWIW, Colin.
> >
> > Lithium Nitrate LiNO3 melts/freezes at 250 C (482 F or 942 R)
> > with a heat of fusion of 87.7 cal/gram (158 btu/lb).
> >
> > LiOH + HNO3 ---> LiNO3 + H2O.
> >
> > Figuring a heat rejection temperature of 100 F (560 R) the
> > Carnot Efficiency (942-560)/942 = 40.6 %
> >
> > With a good thermal storage and Stirling engine design, one
> > should be able to get  32 %  (50 btu) out of each pound of thermal
> > storage as work which would put it even up with the best
> > storage batteries at 15 watt/hr (50 btu) per pound.
> >
> > Using biomass, solar, fossil (methane, propane) fuel heat to "charge"
the thermal
> > storage bed would make it more energy efficient that
> > charging up batteries from the grid.
> >
> > Regards,    Frederick
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 17:24:04 2001
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You are correct...the phase change of salts were used...glauber salt..??
.....not sure....could be set up to change at temp that was best for
use.....
the problem at that time was that the salt would come out of solution..
and then stop working...do not know if this problem was ever solved...
steve opelc

Colin Quinney wrote:
> 
> What are the efficiencies in WHrs per lb utilizing *salt* for thermal
> storage? I'm not sure of the correct terminology, but I do recall reading
> something about increasing thermal (solar) storage with the change-of-state
> in salt solutions sometime back in the 70's. Hydrating the salt gives off
> the heat. This was utilized by someone with space considerations who held
> that more thermal storage (per weight and volume) was available with this
> method than using heated water or heated rocks. I don't know if this is true
> or not and I'm also not sure of which salt was used. All I know for sure was
> that it was not sodium chloride. Could it have been calcium chloride?
> 
> If that is true, why not utilize the exothermic reaction from certain
> hydrated salts? I'm sure the process has been improved by now, somewhere..
> 
> Best Regards,
> Colin Quinney
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frederick Sparber" 
> To: 
> Cc: ; 
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
> 
> > Since Mike Carrell is so set against using a thermal mass for energy
> > storage, he might take a look at this approach using less than 1.25
> > tons of bricks to store up ~ 615,000 btu of off-peak electricity for
> > comfort heating.
> >
> >  http://www.steffes.com/ETShome.html
> >
> > As I said, the Best-Most Expensive storage batteries can do
> > 15 watt-hours/lb (~ 50 Btu). At ~1,000 F (~ 1500 R) a pound
> > of brick (insulated of course) can store up ~ 250 btu.
> >
> > At a rejection temperature of  140 F (600 R) the
> > Carnot efficiency is 60%.
> >
> > Heat sinking the Stirling  into  32  deg F  (492 R) ice bath
> > could increase the Carnot Effiency to  ~ 67%.
> >
> > Allowing for insulation heat loss and a Stirling engine efficiency
> > of 30% this can still beat battery storage on a cost basis.
> >
> > Don't Forget the Total Energy (~ 200 Btu)it takes to
> > generate the 15 watt-hours going into charging the battery.
> >
> > OTOH, the bricks can be "recharged" by direct combustion
> > of natural gas, wood, or a solar concentrator.
> >
> > Regards,   Frederick
> >
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 17:49:56 2001
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thomas malloy wrote:

> Jones Beene wrote;
> >
> >Cancer in 10 % of any population in such a short time is absolutely
> >unprecedented and points either to a cover-up (of known information)
> >of  gigantic proportions - or the existence of an anomaly.
> >
> >As I stated in a previous post there is a small chance that the
> >anomaly can be explained by the increase in radioactivity of DU due
> >to LENR.
> >
> >In no way, absolutely NO WAY can this anomaly be explained away by
> >the negligible increase in radon that would occur during the short
> >time span that has occurred since these rounds were fired.
>
> This reminds me of John (?) Sternglass's books. One of which is Low
> Level Radiation I read it and became totally convinced that we ( the
> human race ) had committed suicide by poisoning ourselves with
> radioactive elements. As I have pointed out previously on this forum,
> we dumped several tons of plutonium dust into the atmosphere in open
> A bomb testing.

This book is typical of writers who take a small part of reality from
which an emotional reaction can be generated and use this to sell
books.  The trouble with the assertion is that humankind is subjected to
much more radiation from natural sources than could possibly be produced
by even tons of Pu, provided of course the Pu were informally
distributed.  The Sr90 from bomb tests is much more dangerous because it
goes to the bone where it causes great damage.  In addition, it goes to
the milk that babies drink.  However, even this contribution is small
compared to natural sources.  The genetic code has long since found ways
to undo damage of radiation at low levels.

>

>
>
> BTW is the word radioneuclide correct when referring radioactive
> isotopes? I have mentioned Sternglass's books to knowledgeable people
> and heard them ridicule his conclusions, I don't know, it made
> perfect sense to me.

radioneuclide is correct.

>
>
> However here we are almost 30 years later and most of us are still
> alive. Maybe all the weaklings are killed off right away, leading to
> the initial surge.

The weaklings from background radiation died off 10000000 years ago.  We
are still discovering ways to kill off the weaklings using methods not
applied by nature in the past.  These methods still do a good job.

>
>
> The more I study it the more convinced I am that cancer is primarily
> a result of eating a diet that is too high in acid forming foods, and
> having too few antioxidants and fiber in the diet.

I agree. We are also exposed to chemicals not anticipated by our genetic
code.

>
>
> Ed Stoms continued:
>
> As for the LENR proposal, this method of transmutation has always
> produced nonradioactive isotopes.  That is why it is being proposed
> as a method to detoxify radioactive waste.
>
> Ed;
>
> Do you know that LENR is real?

I know this as much as I "know" anything.

> Have you investigated Paul Brown's
> http://www.nucsol.com claims? What do you think about Joe Champion's
> claims?

Joe Champion seems to have some good ideas even though he is half crazy
himself.

> is it possible that the oxidation of carbon, and sulfur in
> the presence of the nitrates causes some high spinangle gold to be
> converted into metalic gold?

The process is more complex than that.  Hg must be present along with
powdered rocks that normally contain gold.  The special chemical
environment is hard to identify in this method, although some gold seems
to have been produced.  However, this is not the best demonstration of
LENR.

>
>
> Then Jones Breen continued:
>
> Prior to this (when hostilities were still going on) many nearly
> intact DU rounds were collected by the population by the thousands
> and sewn into flak jackets that the civilians would wear to market to
> protect against snipers. This close contact to DU, even if it were
> only for a few hours a day is one problem.
>
> I'd ask what kind of an idiot would sew DU rounds into his jacket,
> but I know the answer. Someone who was afraid of hot lead poisoning,
> and was desperate.

I would like to know just how many people actually did this in contrast
to those who wish they had.  In any case, I doubt this effort would have
saved many people from snipers.  A vest thick enough to stop a high
powered bullet would have been too heavy to wear.  Remember, U melts and
oxidizes upon impact, thereby providing a path for the steel-tipped
bullet.

Ed Storms


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Subject: RE: Bricks vs Batteries
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What is the eutectic point of the mixture Fred?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 8:31 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries


Found some thermal data for Sodium and Potassium Nitrate:

               M.P. Deg C       Heat of Fusion Cal/Gram (Btu/lb)

KNO3      338                              28.1  (50.6)

NaNO3    310                              44.2   (79.6)


The NaNO3  rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R) gives a Carnot efficiency
of 46.66% at it's 590 F  (1050 R)melting point.

The KNO3 rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R)gives a Carnot Efficiency
of  49% at it's 640 F (1100 R) melting point.

One can see why Sandia chose a mix of these for the "Solar Two"
power tower storage.

Easy to make these using nitric acid  and potassium and/or sodium
carbonates.

Make sense, Jones B.?

Regards,    Frederick


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Keith Nagel 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: Bricks vs Batteries

Good question Keith.

I gather from the Sandia news that they used a eutectic but still
held the temp at 1050 R or therabouts.

FJS

> What is the eutectic point of the mixture Fred?
> 
> K. 
> 
> Found some thermal data for Sodium and Potassium Nitrate:
> 
>                M.P. Deg C       Heat of Fusion Cal/Gram (Btu/lb)
> 
> KNO3      338                              28.1  (50.6)
> 
> NaNO3    310                              44.2   (79.6)
> 
> 
> The NaNO3  rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R) gives a Carnot efficiency
> of 46.66% at it's 590 F  (1050 R)melting point.
> 
> The KNO3 rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R)gives a Carnot Efficiency
> of  49% at it's 640 F (1100 R) melting point.
> 
> One can see why Sandia chose a mix of these for the "Solar Two"
> power tower storage.
> 
> Easy to make these using nitric acid  and potassium and/or sodium
> carbonates.
> 
> Make sense, Jones B.?
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> 

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Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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In self defense, let me say that I'm not clueless about the implications of
bricks and batteries and solutions to problems. I did system analysis for a
living. I see that the conversation has wandered off into phase-change
systems and has bypassed one of the phase changes which involves a very
large amount of heat ice-water, water-steam.

Even with dewars, good dewars, the facts of life are that they all leak heat
and if gas is to be kept liquid a small amount of boiling must be tolerated,
else pressure will build up and the container will explode. Exceptions are
CO2 and methane, which can be kept liquid at room temperature under
sufficient pressure. There are probably others. This is one of the stumbling
blocks to the 'hydrogen' economy. You can transport hydrogen in compounds
such as LPG, methanol, and gasoline. Carbon goes with all of these.

There are building heating systems that store heat in large ponds during
summer air-conditioning season and recover it to heat the building in
winter. These are not vehicles.

The idea of bricks vs. batteries is a good beginning for homework, for it
leads to larger systems considerations which if pursued can be very
educational.

To say I'm dead set against such is to miss the point. Mother Nature is
quite definite in her opinions.

Mike Carrell

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From: "Keith Nagel" 
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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:59:09 -0500
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I guess the advantage is you can easily move
the thermal mass around, I wonder whether the
vaporization point is lower as well, or is
it just the lowest of the two (310C)?

I seem to remember special salt mixes that
melted even around room temperature, hot stuff.

K.


*Good question Keith.
*
*I gather from the Sandia news that they used a eutectic but still
*held the temp at 1050 R or therabouts.
*
*FJS

> What is the eutectic point of the mixture Fred?
> 
> K. 
> 
> Found some thermal data for Sodium and Potassium Nitrate:
> 
>                M.P. Deg C       Heat of Fusion Cal/Gram (Btu/lb)
> 
> KNO3      338                              28.1  (50.6)
> 
> NaNO3    310                              44.2   (79.6)
> 
> 
> The NaNO3  rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R) gives a Carnot efficiency
> of 46.66% at it's 590 F  (1050 R)melting point.
> 
> The KNO3 rejecting heat into 100 F (560 R)gives a Carnot Efficiency
> of  49% at it's 640 F (1100 R) melting point.
> 
> One can see why Sandia chose a mix of these for the "Solar Two"
> power tower storage.
> 
> Easy to make these using nitric acid  and potassium and/or sodium
> carbonates.
> 
> Make sense, Jones B.?
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 19:41:22 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:33:35 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Here are some low temperature Phase Change Materials (PCMs) Mike.

R&D  didn't stop when you retired from RCA, Mike.  :-)

 http://www.eren.doe.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/b103.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 19:43:25 2001
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From: Tstolper aol.com
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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:38:28 EST
Subject: H2K
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Vince,

Why did you decide to discontinue work on the H2K experiment?  (There hasn't 
been anything new on that for almost ten months, either here on Vortex-L or 
on your web page.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 20:40:08 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 13:36:45 -0800:
[snip]
>Even if most of these high UV photons will be thermalized by the cell and
>converted down to IR, i.e. heat, some should escape - depending on the
>transparency of the Dewar materials for this energy photon.
[snip]
27.2 eV is well into the UV, and as far as I know, not only is the Dewar not
transparent at this wavelength, but neither is water. I think the energy
will all show up as heat.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 20:49:30 2001
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From: Charles Ford 
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OK...  here is the harsh truth about this little problem...

A cheap Nickle Cadmium battery has an energy yield of about 75% when 
operated within 10% to 70% of its designed maximum current.  This means 
that the energy returned from the battery is 75% of the charging costs.  I 
can easily design a 90% efficient charger with a switching power 
supply.  Total yield is now 67.5%

When you are not using the energy it does not bleed off.  This makes it 
ideal for transportation because you do not use the energy at a constant 
rate and sometimes not at all. It does not require any extra stuff around 
it to make it this efficient.  A Brushless DC motor 90% efficient will 
return 60.75% yield to a vehicles wheels. If the engineer has the 
forethought to use a high torque low RPM motor there will be no need for a 
gear down.

A thermal mass will cool unless you totally insulate it. Even a dewar has 
losses In the case of the brick 1000F is very hot and will be difficult to 
work with.  Energy management will require expensive sensor equipment.  The 
sterling engine will also be heavy and expensive.  A NiCd will give full 
power until it is almost totally depleated.  A brick will begin to loose 
performance as soon as you begin to use the energy.

Pushing aside the costs of the equipment and the coasting down effect in 
the performance. Favor only the energy you will be saving....

Take the weight of the NiCd battery plus the weight of a burshless DC  The 
motor will probably weigh about 1/5 as much as the battery.  now reduce the 
energy to the end product of the system.  60.75% calculate the energy 
storage BTU/lbs

Now take the weight of your brick and the insulator and the sterling 
engine.  Reduce the  energy to represent the product of the entire system. 
(30% as I remember)  calculate BTU/lbs...

It doesn't take much imagination or homework to see you are loosing ground 
here...   Now lets go one step further.   When you accelerate you use 
energy from your battery and convert it to kinetic energy.  When you stop 
you typically use a wheel break that converts the KE to your favorite form 
of energy  "heat"  A brushless DC can convert 60% of that energy back into 
electricity via dynamic breaking. This can be used to maintain battery 
charge longer in stop and go situations.  How much heat can you recover 
from your break system?

When our engineering talent gets to the point that we can totally insulate 
a thermal mass at 1000F with lightweight materials  and the sterling engine 
has an efficiency of more like %80 or %90 and we learn how to recover 
breaking heat at say 45% or better...  then remember this thread and bring 
it up again.


At 08:11 AM 1/15/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> > Think carefully. Hot bricks cool down on their own. Liquid gases must be
> > allowed to vent to stay cool by evaporation. What happens when you 
> leave the
> > car in the garage over the weekend? Or overnight?
>
>Plug it in.
>
> > What is the energy system
> > that produces the heat and cold and what is its efficiency?
>
>Not my idea, just some "free association" thrown out there for Frederick 
>or for
>any others who are working on such a problem. But since you brought it up, 
>have
>you ever heard of insulation?
>
> > Do some homework.
>
>Perhaps you should do some imaginative thinking. The objections you 
>mention are
>easily solvable engineering details that any undergraduate can address - and
>doing so is much better use of your time and mine than harping on obvious
>details that are never solved at the first mention of an idea.
>
>Jones


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 20:53:26 2001
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I've posted this elsewhere, so John and Fred's and Vortex's fame may 
spread.  Some ideas of my own in here too.  Let's have some more numbers, 
Fred.

Gene

****

Getting Closer to Ginger? Kamen's Stirling Effort
From: Eugene Mallove
www.infinite-energy.com

All,

>From an idea floated on the Vortex e-forum (which deals with new 
energy/new physics ideas, including cold fusion), the answer to the 
"Ginger"/"IT" mystery may be approaching (see partial comments by John 
Schnurer and Frederick Sparber abstracted below).  Kamen's "scooter" -- 
or other kind of vehicle -- may use a high efficiency Stirling engine 
with liquid nitrogen or liquid air as the cold reservoir with *ambient 
heat* as the hot reservoir.  This might fit in with many of the 
constraints on Ginger. It would be non-polluting in the city environment 
and would even work in very cold weather, because the "fuel" is liquid 
nitrogen or liquid air. (Liquid nitrogen, stored in a dewar, would be 
especially safe.) It certainly is a remarkable new "principle," since to 
my knowledge no such engine is in practical use. Of course, it takes 
energy to manufacture the cryogenic liquid, but this manufacturing 
process is well understood, safe, and can be done with electrically 
powered machinery run from more polluting power plants far removed from 
the core of the city.  This would explain some of the words about 
designing cities around it -- production of the cryogenic liquids would 
best be done on a large scale in the city so that fossil fuel powered 
vehicles would not need to haul the stuff in.  I could see how other 
commercial forces would wish to try to stop this -- gasoline stations 
would become cryogenic fueling stations.

A range constraint would seem to be the storage capacity of the dewar on 
the vehicle,  but with plenty of stops along the way at which to tank up 
with inert fuel, this would not be a difficult problem.

This would be an elegant solution for transport of various kinds within 
cities. Since Kamen is known to be working on high-efficiency Stirling 
engines (see Wired, Sept. 2000), this fits in perfectly with the various 
news descriptions.  It is a natural marriage of his interest in vehicles 
-- from US First and iBot involvement -- and his work on Stirling 
engines.  One could well imagine these kinds of vehicles proliferating 
and making Kamen et al very rich -- hence the comments about the wealth 
potential.  Stirling engines are conceptually very, very simple. The 
article about Kamen's Stirling engine effort (Wired, Sept. 2000), 
indicates a price tag for his third-world high-efficieny Stirling engines 
that are consistent with the low prices being cited in the Kemper book 
proposal.

More news comes from the Wired site:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,41197,00.html

>From that article:


                                  But will a scooter, no matter how cool 
it may
                                  be, really revolutionize the world? 

                                  Kamen has a patent, issued last year, 
that
                                  outlines a design for a Stirling 
engine. This
                                  alternative power source would fit 
better with
                                  the descriptions offered by people who 
claim
                                  to have seen the device, such as 3Com's 
Bob
                                  Metcalfe, who described IT as "almost 
as big
                                  as cold fusion would have been." 

                                  In 1816, Scottish minister Robert 
Stirling
                                  obtained a patent for a device he 
called the
                                  "Economizer," an engine powered by the
                                  expansion and compression of contained
                                  fuel. 

                                  Stirling engines are being studied at 
NASA for
                                  use in powering space vehicles with 
solar
                                  energy. Prototypes also regularly show 
up at
                                  science fairs and high school lab 
classes,
                                  where they can be built using simple 
items
                                  like coffee cups or test tubes. 

                                  But a commercially viable Stirling 
engine
                                  would be a non-polluting, cheap power
                                  source that could completely change the
                                  dynamics of the dependency upon the
                                  Middle East's oil producing regions and 
cause
                                  fuel prices to tumble. It could, 
scientists say,
                                  launch a new world. 

                                  "Even if Kamen simply came up with a
                                  Stirling engine that was capable of 
powering
                                  a scooter, it would be a 
culture-changer," said
                                  Kovacs Janos, a professor of mechanics 
at
                                  Magyar Tudomanyos Akademia in Budapest. 


John Schnurer began the thread on Vortex  [ vortex-l eskimo.com]1/13/01:

****
	The Dean Kamen IT:

	If all holds true to earlier information to IT is a stand
alone    motor or device which is a Stirling cycle or some other
type of close or semi closed device.  

	This "motor" works on ambient thermal conditions. Further it does
not use  fuels as we describe them.



	This may or may not be configured to run a home.


*****  Frederick Sparber continued (1/13/01)

Liquid Air or N2 has a critical temperature of 227 Deg R, and critical
pressure of ~500 psi.   It takes about  90 btu/lb to evaporate it.

 http://ranier.oact.hq.nasa.gov/Sensors_page/Cryo/CryoPT/CryoPTHist.html

Nice way to run a Stirling engine using the LN2 as the  cold end and
ambient air as the hot end.

I think John S.  called it right.

Regards, Frederick

*****  More from Sparber

With LN2 (or Air) boiling at ~ 140 Deg Rankine (Minus 320 F) there's
a potential Carnot efficiency of ~ 35% at 40 F ambient.

Regards,   Frederick
> 

****  More from Sparber:

Methinks the Carnot Efficiency = Th-Tc/Th  could get up to 60% at
Th = 40 F (500 R) and Tc = 200 R   (- 260 F).

 http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/phys202/carnot/carnot.html

The Liquid N2 or Air can be made in huge quantities for less
than $0.50/gallon. 

And you don't need antifreeze.  :-)

Nasa ships LH2 in 13,000 gallon rail cars. But LN2/Air is inert.

Regards,   Frederick


*****

This may not turn out to be the true solution to the Kamen "IT" mystery, 
but on 1/15/2001 it seems to be the best fit.  Maybe this idea of 
"Ginger" can really fly.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 21:08:43 2001
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At 04:45 PM 1/15/01, you wrote:
>Hi Fred,
>
>
>I looked around the Internet for something cooler. How about utilizing
>something like Glauber salt? (Na2SO4.10H2O)
>50 times the heat capacity of concrete   384 MJ/m3.
>Melting point ~90 degrees F.
>
>http://faculty.millikin.edu/~jaskill.nsm.faculty.mu/heatstorage.html
>"Compared to concrete (7.75 MJ/m3 for a DT = 1oC), Glauber salt is a much
>more efficient way of storing heat. Its drawback is that it is much more
>expensive than concrete. "
>(Cost. $10.00 per Kgm.)
>
>Colin

This is a good idea, too.  Another one for vehicle power would be to use 
the heat of a stationary heat storage facility to run a Stirling engine to 
produce the power to take the Nitrogen out of the air, pressurize and 
liquify it.  A land based vehicle like a car or truck could also have a 
Stirling type engine as its' power plant, but instead of trying to store 
heat in a brick, it could use the expansion of the Liquid Nitrogen as a 
refrigerant on the the cold side of the Stirling engine whenever it needed 
the temperature differential.  This would be very easy to regulate with 
valves.  You could pretty easily fit 50 gallons of LN into a car.  Granted, 
in a crash, it would freeze everything instead of burning it if it got 
loose, but you could also design around that.  It would be easier to design 
for LN safety than for any stored explosive gas like Hydrogen, for example.

The advantage to this idea would be that any home could have a passive 
solar collector that would charge the brick, salt bed or whatever with 
heat, and use what energy is not immediately needed for the production of 
LN.  The size, weight and efficiency of the heat storage material would not 
be such an issue since it would be staying in one place permanently, and it 
would be able to provide power for both the home and the vehicle.  The size 
of the home unit would probably depend on the cost of the materials, but if 
you couldn't afford the more exotic materials, then you would just make the 
area of the heat storage material larger.  You would just build the 
integrated system large enough for your maximum anticipated needs, and 
never have to pay another cent for any kind of power except for 
maintenence.  It would also be a totally nonpolluting method of producing 
power.

The whole thing together would not be as elegant as I would like to see by 
any means, but neither are any of the currently used models when you 
consider all of the infrastructure costs, healthcare costs, environmental 
cleanup costs, political costs and baggage that go along with coal, oil and 
nuclear power generation.

The bottom line is that it can be done, as can a number of other methods.

Knuke


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 21:08:54 2001
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Lots of good info:

http://www.tamin.com/stirling.html

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 21:20:17 2001
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:48:38 -0600:
[snip]
>>> The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission that
>>> would not reach the body.

A fine airborne dust would lodge in the lungs (which are moist), and
sensitive tissues would be directly exposed to alpha radiation.
There is also the fact to consider that for a very fine dust, many more
alpha particles will actually make it out of the dust particle, and into
your tissues than would have been the case for solid metal. This is an
"inverse" consequence of the lack of penetrative power of alpha particles,
combined with the possible very small size of some dust particles. IOW we
could be looking at a volume effect here, rather than the normal surface
effect. Or to put it differently, the surface is much increased by
powdering.
[snip]
>Granted, no question can be answered by debate alone.
>However, some facts do help guide the research.  Radium and
>radon are especially dangerous within the body because they
>are very active alpha emitters.  Your concern could be
>quickly addressed by simply testing the environment for
>alpha emitters.  I suppose we will just have to wait to see
>if the Yugoslaves measure and post such information.
[snip]
>The Mills work is not cold fusion.  The hydrino might lead
>to a nuclear reaction, but this is a secondary process.  In
>contrast, CF produces a nuclear reaction without hydrino
>formation and as the primary process.

How can you be sure of this? Even if only 10% of hydrinos were to undergo
nuclear reactions, the percentage of energy contributed to the total by
those nuclear reactions would still be 99%, and to all intents and purposes,
it would appear as though the heat were completely explained by He4
formation. CF may be a process where hydrino formation is the key to
bypassing the Coulomb barrier, but an abnormal deactivation process is also
involved, such that He4 forms rather than T or He3.
Such a deactivation process may involve the hydrino's shrunken electron,
which would be much closer to the nucleus at the instant of fusion than
normal atomic electrons, allowing for a much stronger coupling with the
nucleus. If so, then this electron may be strongly ejected, perhaps even
taking a couple of normal electrons with it in the process.
(Although in this case one might well expect to see at least the occasional
24 MeV beta particle).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 21:26:53 2001
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From: "Michael T. Huffman" 
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
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At 10:55 PM 1/15/01, you wrote:

>Even with dewars, good dewars, the facts of life are that they all leak heat
>and if gas is to be kept liquid a small amount of boiling must be tolerated,
>else pressure will build up and the container will explode. Exceptions are
>CO2 and methane, which can be kept liquid at room temperature under
>sufficient pressure. There are probably others. This is one of the stumbling
>blocks to the 'hydrogen' economy. You can transport hydrogen in compounds
>such as LPG, methanol, and gasoline. Carbon goes with all of these.
>
>There are building heating systems that store heat in large ponds during
>summer air-conditioning season and recover it to heat the building in
>winter. These are not vehicles.
>
>The idea of bricks vs. batteries is a good beginning for homework, for it
>leads to larger systems considerations which if pursued can be very
>educational.
>
>To say I'm dead set against such is to miss the point. Mother Nature is
>quite definite in her opinions.
>
>Mike Carrell

LN can be stored, transported and used where ever necessary at any 
temperature one is likely to encounter on Earth.  It doesn't leak out of 
the tanks like heat.  To make the best use of the heat collected in a 
brick, insulation will be necessary obviously, and the better the 
insulation the more efficient the process will be, but it is just not all 
that big of a concern if your initial energy input from the Sun is free to 
begin with.

Knuke




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 22:54:00 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bricks vs Batteries
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:52:01 +1100
Organization: Improving
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References: <003a01c07f25$bf610d20$e68f85ce fjsparber> <01a601c07f28$8e9199a0$62584118@mtwh1.on.wave.home.com> <005e01c07f35$73d97800$e68f85ce@fjsparber> <021301c07f3c$7419ff40$62584118@mtwh1.on.wave.home.com> <5.0.2.1.1.20010115231613.00a86880@pop3.atlan
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In reply to  Michael T. Huffman's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:12:44
-0500:
[snip]
Colin wrote:
>>http://faculty.millikin.edu/~jaskill.nsm.faculty.mu/heatstorage.html
>>"Compared to concrete (7.75 MJ/m3 for a DT = 1oC), Glauber salt is a much
>>more efficient way of storing heat. Its drawback is that it is much more
>>expensive than concrete. "
>>(Cost. $10.00 per Kgm.)

Note that while Glauber salt stores 384 MJ/m^3 as heat of fusion, common
table salt stores 1000 MJ/m^3, and furthermore, rock salt only costs about
$20-30 / ton (i.e. *300* times cheaper).

Also, the melting point of NaCl is 800 ºC, so any heat engine using it would
have a much higher Carnot efficiency.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 15 23:58:41 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:04:46 -0500
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From: "Michael T. Huffman" 
Subject: Re: John and Frederick's good work
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At 10:41 PM 1/15/01, you wrote:
>I've posted this elsewhere, so John and Fred's and Vortex's fame may
>spread.  Some ideas of my own in here too.  Let's have some more numbers,
>Fred.
>
>Gene
Hi Gene,

Kamen may have engineered a way to take advantage of the special properties 
of the titanium alloy Nitinol (sp?), in the construction of a Sterling 
concept engine.  Presently it is being used as a "muscle material" in 
robotics. The subject of this material has been discussed before by John 
Schnurer, and when I looked at it, I thought that there must be a way to 
use that stuff in the making of a Sterling Engine.  No really good ideas 
came to me at the time, but I still think about it occasionally.

Knuke


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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: John and Fred's Good Work
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:35:38 -0800
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Found this on Nitinol, Knuke.

 http://www.memory-metalle.de/basics.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 01:47:15 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:55:15 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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Since the list seems to be momentarily "going conventional," here is a
whacky conventional idea that is not so new.

An alternative concept, that might not be acceptable on environmental
grounds, is to use a non-critical radioactive source for power.  There are
lots of feasible sources, but 137Cs is one option.  It produces about 0.6
watts/g continuously, with a half life of 30.3 yrs.  Since it is liquid it
would have to be in a compound form, preferably in a glassified form, at
0.3 w/g.

A small personal vehicle, like a bicycle or scooter, requires only a small
amount of power to be practical, provided it can also be human augmented.
About 200 W, about 1/4 HP, is useful.  At 30% conversion efficiency, that
is about 667 W required, or about 2.2 kg of fuel.  For a 30 year design
life, 4.4 kg of fuel is required.  This would provide a direct powered
vehicle, and need no energy storage, but would produce 1320 W (dropping to
660 W at 30.3 yrs) of waste heat at all times.  Handy in the winter, a
problem in the summer.  The mass of encapsulation and shielding required
(for 0.514 MeV betas, and 0.66 Mev gammas) and integrity issues are also
problems.

However, a vehicle typically only runs about 2 hours a day.  A hybrid
Sterling/electric vehicle would require about 1/6 the power output, and
thus only .67 kg fuel, producing a mere 222 watts heat at all times.
However, a better alternative to a hybrid might be to use conventional
battery or flywheel vehicles and place free parking/charging stations all
around a city, or mall, or neighborhood, and these could be conventionally
powered, or power by cesium etc.

An automobile would require at least 30 HP, or about 120 times the power.
That amounts to 80 kg of fuel (40 kg of Cs) plus shielding and hybrid
sytems, or 480 kg of fuel for direct power - enough to run a household for
30 years at 20 kW, and still have half the fuel left over for reprocessing.
Not a bad power plant to have for a home maybe.  If such a plant WERE in a
vehicle, you could plug it into the home to power the home when you
arrived, instead of vice versa.

The main technical problems are safe encapsulation, and the production of
enough fuel, but these do not seem out of the reach of present technology,
especially for home power systems.  If economical reprocessing were
available, then the fuel requirements could be almost cut in half.

Calculation addendum follows:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

How much radium is required to produce 1000 watts?

Assuming purified 137Cs with half life of 30.3 y and energy of 1.176 MeV
per decay.  A mole of Ra (or anything) contains Avogadro's no. of atoms, or
6.022x10^23 atoms. A mole of 137Cs weighs about 137 g.

When considering an interval less than 1% of the half-life we can handily
use the Rutherford-Soddy law of radioactive decay, which says if we have N
atoms to begin with:

   No. decays = D = 0.69x(timeinterval/half-life)xN

This is just an approximation based of the slope of the logarithmic decay
curve at time zero.

One year has 365.25 days/year x 24 hours/day x 60 min/hr x 60 sec/min =
3.156x10^7 seconds.  A 137 Cs half life thus has 3.156x10^7 seconds/yr x
30.3 yr = 9.56x10^8 sec.

A mole of radium is therefore consumed at the rate of

   Dm = 0.69(1 sec/9.56x10^8 sec)(6.022x10^23 atoms/sec per mole)
   Dm = 4.35x10^14 dps/mole

The decays per second (dps) per gram is thus:

   Dg = (4.35x10^14 dps/mole)/(137 g/mole) = 3.18x10^12 dps/g.

However, 1 eV = 1.602x10^-19 J, so we get a power density P:

   P = Dg(1.602x10^-19 J/eV)(1.176x10^6 eV/decay)
   P = 2.787x10^-2 (J/s)/g = 0.6 W/g.

So, to get 1000 W we need a mass m:

   m = (1000 W)/(0.6 W/g.) = 1.67 kG.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 02:56:24 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 02:03:18 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Exploring a powering concept (correction #1)
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Since the list seems to be momentarily "going conventional," here is a
whacky conventional idea that is not so new.

An alternative concept, that might not be acceptable on environmental
grounds, is to use a non-critical radioactive source for power.  There are
lots of feasible sources, but 137Cs is one option.  It produces about 0.6
watts/g continuously, with a half life of 30.3 yrs.  Since it is liquid it
would have to be in a compound form, preferably in a glassified form, at
0.3 w/g.

A small personal vehicle, like a bicycle or scooter, requires only a small
amount of power to be practical, provided it can also be human augmented.
About 200 W, about 1/4 HP, is useful.  At 30% conversion efficiency, that
is about 667 W required, or about 2.2 kg of fuel.  For a 30 year design
life, 4.4 kg of fuel is required.  This would provide a direct powered
vehicle, and need no energy storage, but would produce 1320 W (dropping to
660 W at 30.3 yrs) of waste heat at all times.  Handy in the winter, a
problem in the summer.  The mass of encapsulation and shielding required
(for 0.514 MeV betas, and 0.66 Mev gammas) and integrity issues are also
problems.

However, a vehicle typically only runs about 2 hours a day.  A hybrid
Sterling/electric vehicle would require about 1/6 the power output, and
thus only .73 kg fuel, producing a mere 219 watts heat at all times.
However, a better alternative to a hybrid might be to use conventional
battery or flywheel vehicles and place free parking/charging stations all
around a city, or mall, or neighborhood, and these could be conventionally
powered, or power by cesium etc.

An automobile would require at least 30 HP, or about 120 times the power.
That amounts to 88 kg of fuel (44 kg of Cs) plus shielding and hybrid
sytems, or 528 kg of fuel for direct power - enough to run a household for
30 years at 16 kW, and still have half the fuel left over for reprocessing.
Not a bad power plant to have for a home maybe.  If such a plant WERE in a
vehicle, you could plug it into the home to power the home when you
arrived, instead of vice versa.

The main technical problems are safe encapsulation, and the production of
enough fuel, but these do not seem out of the reach of present technology,
especially for home power systems.  If economical reprocessing were
available, then the fuel requirements could be almost cut in half.

Calculation addendum follows:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

How much radium is required to produce 1000 watts?

Assuming purified 137Cs with half life of 30.3 y and energy of 1.176 MeV
per decay.  A mole of Ra (or anything) contains Avogadro's no. of atoms, or
6.022x10^23 atoms. A mole of 137Cs weighs about 137 g.

When considering an interval less than 1% of the half-life we can handily
use the Rutherford-Soddy law of radioactive decay, which says if we have N
atoms to begin with:

   No. decays = D = 0.69x(timeinterval/half-life)xN

This is just an approximation based of the slope of the logarithmic decay
curve at time zero.

One year has 365.25 days/year x 24 hours/day x 60 min/hr x 60 sec/min =
3.156x10^7 seconds.  A 137 Cs half life thus has 3.156x10^7 seconds/yr x
30.3 yr = 9.56x10^8 sec.

A mole of radium is therefore consumed at the rate of

   Dm = 0.69(1 sec/9.56x10^8 sec)(6.022x10^23 atoms/sec per mole)
   Dm = 4.35x10^14 dps/mole

The decays per second (dps) per gram is thus:

   Dg = (4.35x10^14 dps/mole)/(137 g/mole) = 3.18x10^12 dps/g.

However, 1 eV = 1.602x10^-19 J, so we get a power density P:

   P = Dg(1.602x10^-19 J/eV)(1.176x10^6 eV/decay)
   P = 2.787x10^-2 (J/s)/g = 0.6 W/g.

So, to get 1000 W we need a mass m:

   m = (1000 W)/(0.6 W/g.) = 1.67 kG.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 07:17:02 2001
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Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>A small personal vehicle, like a bicycle or scooter, requires only a small
>amount of power to be practical, provided it can also be human augmented.
>About 200 W, about 1/4 HP, is useful.

Based on my experience with the electric scooter and bicycle, I would say 
200 W is barely useful, and only on level ground. It is not enough to carry 
an adult up a moderate hill. The 400 W bicycle motor is much better, but on 
a steep hill with pedal power augmenting the motor, you go around ~8 mph max.


660 W at 30.3 yrs) of waste heat at all times.  Handy in the winter, a
>problem in the summer.  The mass of encapsulation and shielding required
>(for 0.514 MeV betas, and 0.66 Mev gammas) and integrity issues are also
>problems.

Given the public's attitude toward radioactivity, I do not think there is 
any possibility a commercial product based on this technology would ever be 
allowed in the U.S. I worry that CF might be banned, since it sometimes 
produces radioactive byproducts.

This idea is similar to the americium reactors proposed by Rubbia and being 
developed in Israel.


>However, a vehicle typically only runs about 2 hours a day.  A hybrid
>Sterling/electric vehicle would require about 1/6 the power output, and
>thus only .67 kg fuel, producing a mere 222 watts heat at all times.

To do this you would need a battery with enough capacity for most of the 
trip, so you might as well dispense with the radioisotopes and recharge by 
conventional means. Small vehicles such as bicycles and scooters cannot 
have complex, multistage energy production or regeneration. This adds too 
much weight, complexity and expense. The machinery will break, because it 
is exposed to rain and often bounced, jolted and smashed in minor accidents.

Bicycles, scooters and motorcycles are inherently dangerous, filthy and 
unstable modes of transportation, especially when mixed with automobile 
traffic. I have had far more accidents and close calls on bicycles than in 
automobiles. The risk is worth it to me, because I enjoy riding and 
exercise, but I doubt that typical American commuters would be interested. 
Americans seem incapable of walking two miles on a sunny day. Even an 
electric scooter requires exercise -- standing up, steering, hauling the 
machine over curbs. These machines would have a huge market in Japan and 
China, where people routinely walk to subway stations or ride bicycles. 
Obesity is much less common in these countries, and most observers 
(including me) assume this is because people get moderate exercise 
commuting. (Diet also plays an important role.)


>30 years at 20 kW, and still have half the fuel left over for reprocessing.
>Not a bad power plant to have for a home maybe.  If such a plant WERE in a
>vehicle, you could plug it into the home to power the home when you
>arrived, instead of vice versa.

Vice versa is much better. Leave the generator at home, or better yet, 
leave it at your electric power utility company. A fixed generator requires 
much less shielding and less maintenance than one installed in a vehicle, 
and it has no weight limitations for shielding or batteries. Vehicles of 
all kinds endure vibration, filth, violent accidents, sudden changes in 
demand, high wear and tear, and other performance challenges not present in 
fixed installations.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 07:35:40 2001
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From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >Even if most of these high UV photons will be thermalized by the cell and
> >converted down to IR, i.e. heat, some should escape - depending on the
> >transparency of the Dewar materials for this energy photon.
>
> 27.2 eV is well into the UV, and as far as I know, not only is the Dewar not
> transparent at this wavelength, but neither is water. I think the energy
> will all show up as heat.

Robin, do you have a reference for this statement?

UV transparency is surprising in some ways. For instance, I have been told on
one forum (but have no authoritative citation in writing) that thin aluminum is
transparent to high UV, as are many light metals. I am just starting to research
this field in earnest, and will keep posting inquiries to the photonics forum
until I get a real citation. I am going through the messages at:

http://members.nbci.com/altphotoprc/

but this is the slowest database I have ever seen (and I have DSL).

UV is absorbed by water, as you say, but not very strongly. Obviously, it could
not be used to sterilize if it were highly absorbed. I have no idea how much
would be necessary to completely shield at 27.2. UV is absorbed by other
materials that are transparent to longer wavelength EM such as quartz and glass
but this can vary by orders of magnitude between certain UV wavelengths. As I
understand it, the new thermos Dewars of Scott are made of plastic resins, which
could be partially transparent?

It would be a mistake to assume good shielding to the 27.2 photon without
actually checking the construction materials in detail. If a significant
percentage of your potential excess energy is escaping through the Dewars, it
might be possible to overlook OU which is actually present.

If anyone on this forum has expertise on this issue please enlighten us!

I don't know about you, but I am extremely hopeful that Scott will find OU in
some system (and this one looks like the best prospect to date) so that he can
then devote his enormous talents into maximizing its efficiency (assuming that
is line with EarthTech's mission).

Regards,

Jones

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:48:38 -0600:
> [snip]
> >>> The radiation from U238 is mostly alpha emission that
> >>> would not reach the body.
>
> A fine airborne dust would lodge in the lungs (which are moist), and
> sensitive tissues would be directly exposed to alpha radiation.
> There is also the fact to consider that for a very fine dust, many more
> alpha particles will actually make it out of the dust particle, and into
> your tissues than would have been the case for solid metal. This is an
> "inverse" consequence of the lack of penetrative power of alpha particles,
> combined with the possible very small size of some dust particles. IOW we
> could be looking at a volume effect here, rather than the normal surface
> effect. Or to put it differently, the surface is much increased by
> powdering.
> [snip]
> >Granted, no question can be answered by debate alone.
> >However, some facts do help guide the research.  Radium and
> >radon are especially dangerous within the body because they
> >are very active alpha emitters.  Your concern could be
> >quickly addressed by simply testing the environment for
> >alpha emitters.  I suppose we will just have to wait to see
> >if the Yugoslaves measure and post such information.
> [snip]
> >The Mills work is not cold fusion.  The hydrino might lead
> >to a nuclear reaction, but this is a secondary process.  In
> >contrast, CF produces a nuclear reaction without hydrino
> >formation and as the primary process.
>
> How can you be sure of this?

Because heat, helium and other nuclear products are produced under conditions
that do not produce hydrinos, according to Mills.

> Even if only 10% of hydrinos were to undergo
> nuclear reactions, the percentage of energy contributed to the total by
> those nuclear reactions would still be 99%, and to all intents and purposes,
> it would appear as though the heat were completely explained by He4
> formation. CF may be a process where hydrino formation is the key to
> bypassing the Coulomb barrier, but an abnormal deactivation process is also
> involved, such that He4 forms rather than T or He3.
> Such a deactivation process may involve the hydrino's shrunken electron,
> which would be much closer to the nucleus at the instant of fusion than
> normal atomic electrons, allowing for a much stronger coupling with the
> nucleus. If so, then this electron may be strongly ejected, perhaps even
> taking a couple of normal electrons with it in the process.
> (Although in this case one might well expect to see at least the occasional
> 24 MeV beta particle).

All this is true for conditions that produce hydrinos.

Regards,
Ed

>
> [snip]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 08:37:00 2001
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For Jones Beene's UV transparency research.

 http://www.luxel.com/?

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 10:37:32 2001
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Subject: Forbes' take
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:18:35 -0400
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    Monday January 15, 12:05 am Eastern Time
    Forbes.com
    Reinventing The Wheel
    By John C. Dvorak
    OK. So some of the supposed smartest people on the planet are
telling us that a
    self-promoting inventor has just invented the most important thing
since the Internet.
    Nobody wants to say what this thing is, but it's so important that
they must alert us
    that our miserable lives will be changed in ways too glorious to
contemplate. This is
    the basic premise behind the hype surrounding probably one of the
dumbest ideas I
    have ever seen in my life.
    I wish the whole story were only a hoax. It's not.
    It began with a Jan. 9 article by P.J. Mark in Inside magazine about
how the Harvard
    Business School Press bought a planned book about a device,
originally code-named
    Ginger now called IT. The proposal for the book by journalist Steve
Kemper was
    sold primarily on the assurances by technology big shots that this
``invention'' would
    revolutionize the world. The product itself was kept a secret. Good
Morning
    America, CNN, The New York Times and all sorts of me-too news
organizations got
    on the hype bandwagon.
    The inventor is Dean Kamen, a Bill Lear-kind of character who
reportedly has 100
    patents and a number of inventions, the most interesting of which is
a wheelchair that
    can climb stairs and balance on two wheels. He thinks scientists
should be
    considered ``celebrities'' and adulated in the same way as movie
stars. He also seems
    to think that the interests of big business are out to crush any new
ideas coming from
    him. That's the main reason IT is being kept a secret.
    His development company DEKA (for DEan KAmen) once worked on a
crackpot
    scheme to create a bedside pharmacy that would dispense a variety of
drugs over a
    computer network. Apparently pills would pop onto a dish or
something based on
    some remote command. According to an article in Wired magazine,
Kamen blamed
    the pharmaceutical companies for killing the idea. Yeah, like there
is no liability
    problem here.
    There's a liability problem with this device too, once you figure
out what this secret
    invention really is. It's plainly listed as a 56-page patent
application dated Dec. 14,
    2000, on the World Intellectual Property Organization, International
Bureau Web
    site. It depicts a variety of ``personal mobility vehicles.'' My
guess is that IT means
    Independent or Individual Transporter.
    The device is essentially a motorized kid's scooter except that it
balances itself in
    such a way that a one-wheel version is possible. Kamen has managed
to patent a
    number of algorithms and systems that allow a wheel to balance
itself. Kind of a
    virtual unicycle. The Flintstones meet the Jetsons. This is possible
today with
    microprocessor computing power combined with gyroscopes and stepper
motors.
    There seem to be two basic models. One has two wheels. But instead
of front and
    back, like on a normal scooter or bicycle, they are side by side.
They are side by side
    since the device self-balances. I don't know if anyone has noticed,
but there are
    already scooters with two wheels front and back that have long since
been invented.
    And there are powered versions of these scooters too. Can you spell
``death trap?'' I
    personally don't see the inherent advantage of changing the concept
just because it
    can balance itself. The dangerous nature of these devices is
compounded by more
    versions shown in the patent that are crazy one-wheel skateboards.
    Fueling the hype about this mysterious product are wacky quotes
attributed to
    executives like Amazon.com (Nasdaq: AMZN - news) Chief Executive
Jeff Bezos,
    venture capitalist John Doerr and Apple Computer CEO (Nasdaq: AAPL -
news)
    Steve Jobs. These observations were captured by Kemper's book pitch,
according to
    the Inside magazine report. ``If enough people see the machine you
won't have to
    convince them to architect cities around it. It'll just happen,''
Jobs reportedly said,
    while Doerr who now has to live down his remark that this dopey
scooter is as
    important as the invention of the World Wide Web. The topper comes
from some
    unnamed investor at Credit Suisse First Boston who apparently said
that this
    invention would make more money in its first year than any startup
in history and
    Kamen would be richer than Microsoft's (Nasdaq: MSFT - news) Bill
Gates. What
    are these people smoking?
    One of the obvious back trends that makes this idea appeal to the
Sand Hill Road
    investment crowd is the sudden popularity of the Razor scooter from
Sharper Image
    (Nasdaq: SHRP - news). This kid's toy is a faddish phenomenon that
looks like a
    transportation trend to these folks. Let's face it, none of these
people get out much any
    more. Exactly how you make the leap of faith to jump from a kid's
toy to this
    ludicrous transporter is beyond me. Not since Sun Microsystems'
(Nasdaq: SUNW -
    news) Bill Joy's rant about the threat of technology last April has
anything so silly
    emerged from otherwise intelligent people. Tales of the emperor's
new clothes don't
    hold a candle to what sometimes goes on in Silicon Valley. Watch how
this whole
    story dies off in the months ahead and then watch Kamen blame the
big bad auto
    industry for killing it off.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 10:37:43 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:12:06 -0600
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From: Mitchell Jones 
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>Lots of good info:
>
>http://www.tamin.com/stirling.html
>
>Gene

***{Check out the WhisperGen from Victron Energie, at
http://www.victronenergie.nl/prod/Victron_catalog_en.pdf. Here is a sample
of their ad copy:

> 11.WhisperGen. The Stirling micro power and
>       heat generator
>
>       After 200 years of development the Stirling
>       motor is ready to conquer the world. Our
>       Stirling generator pulverises the Diesel
>       genset when it comes to silent and vibration
>       free operation, service life and maintenance
>       intervals.
>       The WhisperGen supplies 750W DC into a
>       12V or 24V battery during 24 hours per day
>       7 days per week. This is equivalent to a 9kW
>       genset operating at 100% load during 2
>       hours per day.
>       Up to 6 kW of heat output is available for hot
>       water and a central heating system
>       Fully automatic, microprocessor controlled
>       operation.
>       Battery charging with boost, Equalize and
>       float capability
>

I haven't found a price quote yet, but assuming that the price is not out
of line this looks pretty impressive to me.

--Mitchell Jones}***
________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 10:58:05 2001
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Subject: Re: HiFi Replication: gas ratios
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Scott and Robin,

Courtesy of Frederick Sparber, please take a look at the following table:

http://www.luxel.com/images/PossFilters.JPG

There is possibly a big surprise in store for you regarding Si.

This chart tries to encapsulate too much information, and I may be reading it backwards - my assumption is the bottom line for each element  indicates low, rather than high, transmittance. It
looks suspiciously in error at the high end (look at >2000 ev with Pb being no better than any of the other metals) but I think it otherwise appears that Lexan (possible thermos material) has
excellent shielding of uv in the 30 ev range but silicon transmits fairly well. Unfortunately Ni is not listed but the transmittance of Fe is also nearly 0 (if I am reading this correctly)
and only the "light" metals and photovoltaics are transmitters.

I will try to find the individual charts for the various materials, as this compound chart is confusing and water isn't listed, but if this chart has any relevance one could surmise that:

1.) if the Ni wire anode in Scott's experiment is tightly wound with few gaps and the inner thermos wall material is Lexan with a Cr or Ag "silvering" then almost zero 27.2 uv will escape.

2.) OTOH if the Ni anode is wound with gaps and the inner vessel wall is glass or quartz and the "silvering" is Al, then a significant amount of 27.2 uv could be escaping.

More later,

Jones

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"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> 
>     Monday January 15, 12:05 am Eastern Time
>     Forbes.com
>     Reinventing The Wheel
>     By John C. Dvorak



> What
>     are these people smoking?
>     One of the obvious back trends that makes this idea appeal to the
> Sand Hill Road
>     investment crowd is the sudden popularity of the Razor scooter from
> Sharper Image
>     (Nasdaq: SHRP - news). This kid's toy is a faddish phenomenon that
> looks like a
>     transportation trend to these folks. Let's face it, none of these
> people get out much any
>     more. 



This weekend was nice in Atlanta.  Kids were out on their Razors
and bicycles.  One group had a kid who apparently did not get a
scooter for Christmas since he was on his bike.  The Razors
couldn't even keep up and those kids went home and got their
bikes.

I guess they parked their Razors next to their hulahoops.  :-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 12:05:29 2001
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John C. Dvorak (Forbes.com) wrote:

>     There's a liability problem with this device too, once you figure
>out what this secret
>     invention really is. It's plainly listed as a 56-page patent
>application dated Dec. 14,
>     2000, on the World Intellectual Property Organization, International
>Bureau Web
>     site.

Are we sure this is the invention in question?


>     And there are powered versions of these scooters too. Can you spell
>``death trap?''

Riding in auto traffic would be dangerous, but otherwise that's an 
exaggeration. The gasoline models are a little dangerous, but I rode a 
slow, low powered electric scooter to work for a week, and I never felt I 
was in danger. They only go 10 - 13 mph. I see them in use around the 
airport here these days.

I think scooters are a little more dangerous and bicycles however, perhaps 
because the wheels are so small. I found it was difficult to avoid 
obstructions like rocks and trash on the pavement, and when I hit a rock 
the entire scooter was destabilized. You have to hold the handlebars the 
entire time, whereas anyone can run a bicycle with no hands. (You can even 
look backwards while you joyride with no hands at night on icy roads, but I 
don't recommend it.)

- Jed

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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At 10:08 AM 1/16/1, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>A small personal vehicle, like a bicycle or scooter, requires only a small
>>amount of power to be practical, provided it can also be human augmented.
>>About 200 W, about 1/4 HP, is useful.
>
>Based on my experience with the electric scooter and bicycle, I would say
>200 W is barely useful, and only on level ground. It is not enough to carry
>an adult up a moderate hill. The 400 W bicycle motor is much better, but on
>a steep hill with pedal power augmenting the motor, you go around ~8 mph max.


OK, so, with with reasonable recycling time, that's about 5 kg of fuel.  (I
wouldn't want it under my bicycle seat though!  8^)   I think 1.4 watt is
plenty for a mall hopping unicycle though.  My main interest was just in
exploring the numbers for 137Cs, just to see what they looked like. There
are lots of other choices, like Am, as you note below.


>
>
>660 W at 30.3 yrs) of waste heat at all times.  Handy in the winter, a
>>problem in the summer.  The mass of encapsulation and shielding required
>>(for 0.514 MeV betas, and 0.66 Mev gammas) and integrity issues are also
>>problems.
>
>Given the public's attitude toward radioactivity, I do not think there is
>any possibility a commercial product based on this technology would ever be
>allowed in the U.S. I worry that CF might be banned, since it sometimes
>produces radioactive byproducts.


Attitudes may change when fossil fuels no longer are feasible to use.


>
>This idea is similar to the americium reactors proposed by Rubbia and being
>developed in Israel.
>
>
>>However, a vehicle typically only runs about 2 hours a day.  A hybrid
>>Sterling/electric vehicle would require about 1/6 the power output, and
>>thus only .67 kg fuel, producing a mere 222 watts heat at all times.
>
>To do this you would need a battery with enough capacity for most of the
>trip, so you might as well dispense with the radioisotopes and recharge by
>conventional means.


Yes. I think I already said that.  It is interesting to me that this also
applies to Ginger, assuming ginger is a personal transporter of some kind.
Something that would be useful for a personal transporter is a quick
recharge.  As discussed on vortex, liquified air would, work.  Maybe even
just plain compressed natural gas or hydrogen would be OK.  Long burning
KNO3 impregnated wood pellets would even work, though a less offensive
solid fuel would be better.  A super fast charging battery  or large
capacitor would work if a major break through occured in power density too.
A critical change in infostructure would then be to place
refueling/recharging stations all over the place, like ATM's.


>Small vehicles such as bicycles and scooters cannot
>have complex, multistage energy production or regeneration. This adds too
>much weight, complexity and expense. The machinery will break, because it
>is exposed to rain and often bounced, jolted and smashed in minor accidents.


So what about the new proposed unicycle?  Your comment seems to apply there
too.  If it is powered by a sterling engine, that engine must be pretty
tough.  The only difference to what I was suggesting is that the heat be
provided by a heavily encapsulated radioactive pellet - just a hot solid
chunck of steel, from an external point of view.


>
>Bicycles, scooters and motorcycles are inherently dangerous, filthy and
>unstable modes of transportation, especially when mixed with automobile
>traffic. I have had far more accidents and close calls on bicycles than in
>automobiles. The risk is worth it to me, because I enjoy riding and
>exercise, but I doubt that typical American commuters would be interested.
>Americans seem incapable of walking two miles on a sunny day. Even an
>electric scooter requires exercise -- standing up, steering, hauling the
>machine over curbs.


All the above applies to a unicycle too, unless some light form of
enclosure is provided.  There is also the matter of assembly and
disassembly.  It is important to compare apples to apples.


>These machines would have a huge market in Japan and
>China, where people routinely walk to subway stations or ride bicycles.
>Obesity is much less common in these countries, and most observers
>(including me) assume this is because people get moderate exercise
>commuting. (Diet also plays an important role.)


So if Ginger is merely an inexpensive collapsable personal transporter, it
might still be of significant benefit, and have a huge market.


>
>
>>30 years at 20 kW, and still have half the fuel left over for reprocessing.
>>Not a bad power plant to have for a home maybe.  If such a plant WERE in a
>>vehicle, you could plug it into the home to power the home when you
>>arrived, instead of vice versa.
>
>Vice versa is much better. Leave the generator at home, or better yet,
>leave it at your electric power utility company. A fixed generator requires
>much less shielding and less maintenance than one installed in a vehicle,
>and it has no weight limitations for shielding or batteries. Vehicles of
>all kinds endure vibration, filth, violent accidents, sudden changes in
>demand, high wear and tear, and other performance challenges not present in
>fixed installations.


There are of course transportation applications where unlimited power
duration is critical.  Of special interest are drones for surveillance,
communications repeating, target illuminating, and even ordinance delivery.
A good cheap reliable sterling engine would be useful toward utilizing
heat from an encapsulated pellet, and, being sealed, its operation would be
largely altitude independent.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 12:49:42 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 12:12:20 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> An alternative concept, that might not be acceptable on environmental
> grounds, is to use a non-critical radioactive source for power.

Anyone hear anything further on the Paul Brown nuclear battery?

It promised to be non-Carnot, of course, and create little
excess heat and need little shielding. After the announcement a
few years back, nothing new has appeared.

I suspect that all of the beta emitters would be prohibitively
expensive if their "real" cost were included in the equation -
with the possible exception of 40K... If only there were a way
to accelerate the decay rate of that bad boy by a factor of
10e6!!

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 13:07:07 2001
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I wrote:

>I think scooters are a little more dangerous and bicycles however, perhaps 
>because the wheels are so small.  I found it was difficult to avoid 
>obstructions like rocks and trash on the pavement,

Meant to say "more dangerous than bicycles . . ."

Let me add an important point. The diagram of the proposed vehicle shows 
the rider standing above two wheels which are side-by-side. My first 
thought on seeing it was, "that will never work!" I think it is impractical 
and very dangerous, based on my experience with scooters, bicycles, 
skateboards etc. While riding, you must watch where the front wheel is 
going, to avoid obstructions. You have to steer around objects or brake to 
a sudden stop. I cannot imagine doing that with the wheels directly under 
your feet, covered by the body of the machine. I found it difficult enough 
with the small wheels on the scooter a short distance in front of me. In a 
car you can run over minor obstructions without danger. American roads and 
sidewalks tend to be filled with trash and debris, broken pavement, sand, 
wet leaves, and parallel bar storm-drain grates seemingly designed to kill 
bicycle riders. American roads are much more dangerous than European and 
Japanese roads, because many people walk or commute by bicycle in these 
countries. (Japanese roads have dangers not found in the U.S., especially 
open sewers running parallel to the road without a guardrail, a meter or so 
deep. I know people who fell into them while riding bicycles drunk, or 
riding while doing school homework or reading the newspaper.)

Kamen might object that his vehicle is so good, it will be worth cleaning 
up our roads and redesigning cities to accommodate them. Yes, but we could 
redesign cities today to accommodate pedestrians and slow-moving electric 
vehicles. This would bring us roughly the same benefits with or without the 
Kamen gadget, and it would cost a tiny fraction of what we now pay to build 
urban superhighways, or to bury the highways in Boston in the "big big" 
project (www.bigdig.com), which will take more than 10 years at $3 million 
per day.

All in all, I find this vehicle design highly dubious, but I would have to 
ride it for a few weeks to make a fair evaluation.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 14:10:31 2001
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Subject: Re: HiFi Replication: gas ratios
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At 10:35 AM 1/16/01 -0800, Jones Beene wrote:

>This chart tries to encapsulate too much information, and I may be reading 
>it backwards - my assumption is the bottom line for each 
>element  indicates low, rather than high, transmittance.

That's right....I happen to know that In has a region of transmission 
around 15 eV and that shows up as an "upward" blip in In's curve....so 
these are transmission curves.

>1.) if the Ni wire anode in Scott's experiment is tightly wound with few 
>gaps and the inner thermos wall material is Lexan with a Cr or Ag 
>"silvering" then almost zero 27.2 uv will escape.
>
>2.) OTOH if the Ni anode is wound with gaps and the inner vessel wall is 
>glass or quartz and the "silvering" is Al, then a significant amount of 
>27.2 uv could be escaping.

The Ni wire is pretty tightly wound in multiple layers...there's no way to 
see through it (see photo 
at:  http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/intro.html).  The Dewar walls are 
glass, silvered on the vacuum side.  Then there's 1/4" of vacuum and 
another silvered glass wall forming the exterior of the Dewar.  I'd be 
really surprised if a substantial amount of energy was escaping in the form 
of high energy photons...but, of course, I've been really surprised before...:)

Keith Nagel asked if the gas anomalies showed up with both K2CO3 and with 
Na2CO3.  Basically, I don't know yet.  I have yet to run the Na2CO3 now 
that I've got the gas analysis going.

Right now I'm setting up a scheme to confirm (hopefully) that the emerging 
gas is a 1.3:1 H:O mixture as my RGA indicates.  I'm going to try 
recombining the H and O in my gas sample and see if there is excess O left 
over.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 15:18:28 2001
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Subject: Urban trasport in the U.S., Japan, Italy
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There are many problems and challenges associated with the use of small 
vehicles in urban areas. These problems will not be any different with the 
Kamen device than they are with ordinary bicycles or walking, even if the 
Kamen device is powered by cold fusion or antimatter. Unless the machine 
flies two meters above the ground with a force field to ward off rain, it 
will have every problem that bicycles and other small vehicles do. (And if 
it flies, it will run into the electric wires, as Rick pointed out. Hot air 
balloons landing in urban areas do this with depressing frequency.)

I mentioned that roads in Europe and Japan are much safer for pedestrians 
and bicycles than the U.S. This is not because governments in these 
countries care about their citizens. I get the impression in Japan & Italy 
that the motorists and government alike would prefer to kill 
off  pedestrians, or force them onto overpass bridges which are 
inaccessible to people with canes or wheelchairs -- who happen to be the 
people who need to cross the road! Roads are "better" in Japan because they 
are so awful. Many have been in use since medieval times. They were 
designed for foot, palanquin, and horse traffic. They are so narrow and 
winding it is impossible to drive a car quickly. Also, people are not as 
wealthy as in the U.S., and you must have a registered parking space for 
every vehicle -- you cannot leave them on the road, and that costs as much 
as an apartment in Atlanta. So, many people walk, which means the 
homeowners are pressured to pick up the trash and sweep away stones and debris.

For a quick view of typical roads in the Japanese countryside, see:

http://www.total.co.jp/town-kuka/kyoukuka.htm

1/6 photo: a road in the town. The guardrail on the right keeps people from 
falling into the stream or sewer. They don't usually bother with these.

1/7 photo: Highway 437, running between towns, on a rainy day. Bus stop on 
right, soft-drink machine on left. Plenty of room for bicycles or farm 
machinery on the shoulder lanes.

In some European cities they have experimented with "public bicycles" 
available free for use. You leave them anywhere in the downtown area. I do 
not know how well this works, but in principle it should be as good as any 
high tech solution that Kamen can come up with. Actually, a good walking 
path will be as convenient and fast as anti-gravity scooters. People should 
walk!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 16:02:20 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: HiFi Replication: gas ratios
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 10:53:30 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:35:05 -0800:
[snip]
>looks suspiciously in error at the high end (look at >2000 ev with Pb being no better than any of the other metals) but I think it otherwise appears that Lexan (possible thermos material) has
>excellent shielding of uv in the 30 ev range but silicon transmits fairly well. Unfortunately Ni is not listed but the transmittance of Fe is also nearly 0 (if I am reading this correctly)
>and only the "light" metals and photovoltaics are transmitters.
[snip]
Before this goes too much farther down the wrong road, I should point out
that the hydrino formation reaction:

2 K+ + H -> Hy + K + K++ 

doesn't result in the formation of 27.2 eV photons (even indirectly).

The 27.2 eV is the difference between the second ionisation energy of K and
the first ionisation energy.

A UV photon would be released if the K++ were to recapture a free electron,
but it would be a 31.6 eV photon.
However more likely is that both the K and the K++ will chemically  react
directly with water molecules, the K producing a hydrogen atom, and the K++
oxidising a water molecule. The latter will eventually lead to the formation
of oxygen gas. This is going to increase the total amount of hydrogen and
oxygen produced, over and above the amount expected according to Faraday's
law.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 16:42:19 2001
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From: "Keith Nagel" 
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Hi Scott.

You write.
>Keith Nagel asked if the gas anomalies showed up with both K2CO3 and with
>Na2CO3.  Basically, I don't know yet.  I have yet to run the Na2CO3 now
>that I've got the gas analysis going.

Well fire up that control cell Scott. It'll take a while
for it to come to equilibrium, if you're following Mill's
protocol. Like days, if I remember right(?).

>Right now I'm setting up a scheme to confirm (hopefully) that the emerging
>gas is a 1.3:1 H:O mixture as my RGA indicates.  I'm going to try
>recombining the H and O in my gas sample and see if there is excess O left
>over.

Excellent.

Looking at the pair of cells differentially should prove interesting....
Would it be difficult to switch the input to the RGA while the
experiment is in operation?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 17:40:56 2001
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http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2001/01/10/1/?nc=1#New

>New charger uses air to recharge cellphone batteries:
>
>Electric Fuel Corp says its new Instant Power charger can recharge
>cellphone batteries without having to be plugged into an external power
>source. The Instant Power charger is described as a high-capacity
>disposable charger for your cellular telephone. The company says the
>charger is powered by air; it allows you to talk and charge your phone at
>the same time. Each PowerCartridge provides up to three charges and is
>disposable in the same manner as alkaline batteries. The unit consists of a
>disposable power pack, a "smart cord," an electronic adapter and an
>airtight storage pouch. The fuel inside the cartridge is activated by
>drawing oxygen from the air through holes in the case, and the charger
>begins delivering power within a minute, the company says. Pricing
>information was not available. Electric Fuel also offers disposable,
>high-capacity Instant Power batteries for cellular telephones. The company
>says its zinc-air battery technology is similar to alkaline battery
>technology, which also produces electrical energy through the controlled
>oxidation of zinc. In this case, the zinc-air batteries draw their oxygen
>from the atmosphere.

http://www.electric-fuel.com/


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 17:53:54 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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At 12:12 PM 1/16/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> An alternative concept, that might not be acceptable on environmental
>> grounds, is to use a non-critical radioactive source for power.
>
>Anyone hear anything further on the Paul Brown nuclear battery?

Haven't seen a thing myself.


>
>It promised to be non-Carnot, of course, and create little
>excess heat and need little shielding. After the announcement a
>few years back, nothing new has appeared.
>
>I suspect that all of the beta emitters would be prohibitively
>expensive if their "real" cost were included in the equation -
>with the possible exception of 40K


Yes, that's probably true.  Makes one appreciate how fantistic either hot
or cold fusion will be, if and when its available.

>... If only there were a way
>to accelerate the decay rate of that bad boy by a factor of
>10e6!!
>
>Jones

Yes, controlled acceleration of any electron capture or beta reaction at
beyond breakeven cost would be good.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: HiFi Replication: gas ratios
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At 4:03 PM 1/16/1, Scott Little wrote:

>
>Right now I'm setting up a scheme to confirm (hopefully) that the emerging
>gas is a 1.3:1 H:O mixture as my RGA indicates.  I'm going to try
>recombining the H and O in my gas sample and see if there is excess O left
>over.


Another possibility to consider, if all else fails, is that the hydrogen is
being tied up in solution somehow - like in carbonic acid, or maybe a
hydrocarbon.  A very long run time should make that apparent though, either
due to the hydrogen entrapment stopping, the evolved gas rato drifting away
from 1.3:1, or by manifesting as a change in conductivity or pH, or by a
visible change in the cell.  Perhaps the H is catalytically combined with
one or more of the O's of the CO3 radicals near the cathode - making water,
CO, CO2, HCO3, or H2CO3, or even some polymer or pure carbon.   It does
seem that some CO or CO2 should be showing up if this were the case,
however.

This would not be a consideration, of course, if NaOH or KOH were used, but
that wouldn't be a replication.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 17:56:30 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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I wrote: "OK, so, with with reasonable recycling time, that's about 5 kg of
fuel.  (I wouldn't want it under my bicycle seat though!  8^)   I think 1.4
watt is plenty for a mall hopping unicycle though."

I meant to type 1/4 HP, not 1.4 watts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 18:15:47 2001
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From: ralph muha 
Subject: thriving on microwaves...
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http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/16/health/16ADAI.html

>Eleanor R. Adair wants to tell the world what she sees as the truth about
>microwave radiation.
>
>[...]
>
>Q. You began studying the physiological effects of microwave radiation in
>1975, putting squirrel monkeys in a microwave chamber, heating them up so
>they would either feel slightly warm or noticeably hot. Were there any
>adverse effects?
>
>A. Never. As a matter of fact, the animals would really thrive on the
>microwave radiation. If we finished an experiment and went on to something
>else and had to use a different set of animals for the next microwave
>experiment, the animals that were taken out of the microwaves would sort of
>pine away. It was as though they were saying, "Come on. It's about time to
>go back in the box."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 18:24:21 2001
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Reply-To: 
From: "Keith Nagel" 
To: 
Subject: RE: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:25:01 -0500
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Sort of.

Paul's been working on waste remediation, check out
his site

http://www.nucsol.com/

The battery work seemed promising, I'm not sure
why it was discontinued. Perhaps if you asked
Paul?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 3:12 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept


Horace Heffner wrote:

> An alternative concept, that might not be acceptable on environmental
> grounds, is to use a non-critical radioactive source for power.

Anyone hear anything further on the Paul Brown nuclear battery?

It promised to be non-Carnot, of course, and create little
excess heat and need little shielding. After the announcement a
few years back, nothing new has appeared.

I suspect that all of the beta emitters would be prohibitively
expensive if their "real" cost were included in the equation -
with the possible exception of 40K... If only there were a way
to accelerate the decay rate of that bad boy by a factor of
10e6!!

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 18:57:29 2001
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:24:47 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: RE: HiFi Replication: gas ratios
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At 07:41 PM 1/16/2001 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote:

>Well fire up that control cell Scott. It'll take a while
>for it to come to equilibrium, if you're following Mill's
>protocol. Like days, if I remember right(?).

I've only got one active cell...i.e. one cell with electrodes in it. So I 
have to  run the experiments sequentially using the one active cell.  I 
COULD set up another active cell....but I'd have to expand my data 
acquisition system (I'm maxed out already), it'd take another $350 piece of 
Pt wire for the anode, lots of work to make another PVDF spool for the 
cathode wire, etc.  Right now I'm plenty busy fiddling around with this gas 
analysis stuff.

> >Right now I'm setting up a scheme to confirm (hopefully) that the emerging
> >gas is a 1.3:1 H:O mixture as my RGA indicates.  I'm going to try
> >recombining the H and O in my gas sample and see if there is excess O left
> >over.
>
>Excellent.
>
>Looking at the pair of cells differentially should prove interesting....
>Would it be difficult to switch the input to the RGA while the
>experiment is in operation?

in principle, no (if I had two active cells).

Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 19:38:21 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 03:33:10 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:25:42 -0900, hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace
Heffner) wrote:

>>>However, a vehicle typically only runs about 2 hours a day.  A hybrid
>>>Sterling/electric vehicle would require about 1/6 the power output, and
>>>thus only .67 kg fuel, producing a mere 222 watts heat at all times.
>>
>>To do this you would need a battery with enough capacity for most of the
>>trip, so you might as well dispense with the radioisotopes and recharge by
>>conventional means.

How about the new, hand-size 12-volt starting battery that can output
1000 Amps for a minute (and can charge in similar time frames)?  Two
or three in series might provide enough power for a bicycle-type
device, as long a regenerative braking is used.

>So if Ginger is merely an inexpensive collapsable personal transporter, it
>might still be of significant benefit, and have a huge market.

Nope.  At $2000 and up, there'd be very little market.  

It would have to be: 1) small, 2) two person plus load (groceries,
etc.), 3) collapse/fold up in 5 seconds or less, 4) have a comfortable
range of 50 miles or more, 5) be enclosed/heated/cooled to protect
from weather.  Otherwise it's a toy (just as a bicycle is in the USA,
where they simply don't work outside a city except for recreation).

There aren't very many $2000 bicycles being sold.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 20:04:13 2001
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
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In a message dated 1/16/01 3:18:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:


> In some European cities they have experimented with "public bicycles" 
> available free for use. You leave them anywhere in the downtown area. I do 
> not know how well this works, but in principle it should be as good as any 
> high tech solution that Kamen can come up with. Actually, a good walking 
> path will be as convenient and fast as anti-gravity scooters. People should 
> walk!
> 
> 

Jed,

They tried this last year in Santa Cruz, California near where I live.  It 
was a great success the first day, but after two months, no one could find 
any bicycles.  It would probably work better in Japan or Switzerland or maybe 
New England, but I wouldn't recommend it for the West Coast.

Bob Briggs

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In a message dated 1/16/01 3:18:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, 

jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:





In some European cities they have experimented with "public bicycles" 

available free for use. You leave them anywhere in the downtown area. I do 

not know how well this works, but in principle it should be as good as any 

high tech solution that Kamen can come up with. Actually, a good walking 

path will be as convenient and fast as anti-gravity scooters. People should 

walk!







Jed,



They tried this last year in Santa Cruz, California near where I live.  It 

was a great success the first day, but after two months, no one could find 

any bicycles.  It would probably work better in Japan or Switzerland or maybe 

New England, but I wouldn't recommend it for the West Coast.



Bob Briggs

--part1_4f.63172b9.27967271_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 21:45:28 2001
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Some fat Tandy executives (remaining nameless) have ben known to walk clear 
across Fort Worth Downtown to lunch at a particular Greezey Spoon... 2 
miles round trip. (I wonder how they stay fat...  must be the food)

It never ceases to amaze me that someone will do that...  Then that same 
evening they will jump in there gas guzzling SUV to hit the corner Seven 
Eleven.  Mostly people don't think..  they just act...

At 10:58 PM 1/16/01 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/16/01 3:18:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:
>
>
>>In some European cities they have experimented with "public bicycles"
>>available free for use. You leave them anywhere in the downtown area. I do
>>not know how well this works, but in principle it should be as good as any
>>high tech solution that Kamen can come up with. Actually, a good walking
>>path will be as convenient and fast as anti-gravity scooters. People should
>>walk!
>
>
>Jed,
>
>They tried this last year in Santa Cruz, California near where I live.  It
>was a great success the first day, but after two months, no one could find
>any bicycles.  It would probably work better in Japan or Switzerland or maybe
>New England, but I wouldn't recommend it for the West Coast.
>
>Bob Briggs


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 21:59:52 2001
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From: "Greg Watson" 
To: 
Subject: Smot & Dmec Flux Gate
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:28:51 +1030
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Hi All,

Much water has gone under the bridge since the SMOT days.

Basically I was trying to do too many things at once, lost my focus & ran out of time &
money.  My consulting business suffered from the excessive time I spend trying to get
those damn SMOT bases working.  I sought outside financial assistance (I was planning to
get a injection mould for the bases made) & ending up losing the lot when one day I found
the door to my "Lab" had the locks changed.  There were failures on both sides as I
couldn't get my RMOD (the water wheel like one) to deliver any real power and I never
received any of the scheduled payments. We finally settled out of court, with them paying
my costs.  I was told my "Lab" was sold to recover costs.  I did see the auction papers.
I never received a cent and came out of the process about $30k Aus worst off.  In
equivalent US terms that is about $60k US based on both cost of living & conversion rates.
Not a pleasant experience.  It has taken me up to now to get somewhat back on my feet as I
also lost most of my consulting clients.  At 54, I'm now retired, renting, making a living
by day trading on the Aussie stock market and still driving a 15 year old car which needs
upgrading

I'm pleased to see Jean-Louis' site with a independent verification of SMOT excess energy
by Professor Pierre Clauzon & his team.  Seems 424 uJoules was not enough to get a good
rollaround. Wish I had thought to do this test myself!

http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/smotnrgt.htm

I now believe I know why the SMOT worked and I'm currently doing a lot of FEMM (much
better than Quick Field) based sims to develop my asymmetric DMEC (Direct Magnetic Energy
Conversion) Flux Gate which shows (at least on the sims) greater inward attractive forces
than outward dragback forces.  Like the SMOT there are NO coils, but unlike the SMOT, the
device is based on a moving magnet and linked stationary DMEC Flux Gates which will allow
true rotary motion.  All the sim work is based on multi linked gates.

Hers is a link for a Excel screen shot of the forces developed on a DMEC rotor magnet as
it moves from the exit of one DMEC linked flux gate to the exit of other.

http://www.egroups.com/files/jlnlabs/Dmec/DmecForces.gif

The first 3 results / curves are for finer and finer mess densities and the last (Blue) is
for a flux gate twice the length of the others.  Notice how the force transitions on the
negative to positive portion of the curves have a low, flattish positive portion and the
positive to negative transition is quite sharp.  The OU? effect occurs in the low but
flattish portion.

Nothing has been built yet, no kits will be sold.  If the device does work, Scott & Hal at
Earth Tech will be my first stop.  Maybe Jed & Eugene would like to be present.  I have
asked Jean-Louis & David Squires to do a replication once I get something working.

PS: Please keep the names, dates & amounts coming so I can fill in the holes & get your
money refunded.

========================
Good Health & Long Life,
 Greg Watson,
  http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson
   gowatson asiaonline.net.au


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 16 22:17:55 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: 
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:16:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:25:01 -0500:

>Sort of.
>
>Paul's been working on waste remediation, check out
>his site
>
>http://www.nucsol.com/
AFAIK he sold his interest in the above company, and has disappeared from
view.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 01:10:19 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 20:09:09 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <15oa6t0jpq8jsg5ulqfb89ht50iv182rna 4ax.com>
References: <5.0.1.4.0.20010112161046.038bac20 earthtech.org> <5.0.1.4.0.20010112161046.038bac20@earthtech.org> <5lbv5t02s8hk42podvi1ngtmp8t8aka3os@4ax.com> <5.0.1.4.0.20010115120151.03b1cec0@earthtech.org>  <3A
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 07:24:53 -0800:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> >Even if most of these high UV photons will be thermalized by the cell and
>> >converted down to IR, i.e. heat, some should escape - depending on the
>> >transparency of the Dewar materials for this energy photon.
>>
>> 27.2 eV is well into the UV, and as far as I know, not only is the Dewar not
>> transparent at this wavelength, but neither is water. I think the energy
>> will all show up as heat.
>
>Robin, do you have a reference for this statement?

As for the Dewar, see other posts. As for water see 

http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,3436+asmbly%5Fid,00.html

.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 02:32:24 2001
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From: "Greg Watson" 
To: 
References: <000f01c0804a$91a7c380$781ad7d2 ibmbn145hv> 
Subject: Re: [FG]: Smot & Dmec Flux Gate
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 21:01:22 +1030
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Monteverde" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [FG]: Smot & Dmec Flux Gate


> Greg -
>
> At 4:28 PM +1030 1/17/01, Greg Watson wrote:
> >I'm pleased to see Jean-Louis' site with a independent verification
> >of SMOT excess energy
> >by Professor Pierre Clauzon & his team.
>
> As near as I can tell, the SMOT ball starts out at a point higher
> than it ends up in the experiments shown on the site. How is a ball
> that is started at a high point and rolls to a stop at a lower point
> an example of "excess energy"? If my description above represents a
> misunderstanding of what was shown in the experiment, would you or
> someone please enlighten me?

Hi Rick,

If you watch the Real Audio video you can see the ball starts at the same point for both
runs.

In the first run the magnets are positioned to achieve a climb & drop and the glass tube
positioned to catch the ball on exit and measure the amount of kinetic energy present in
the exiting ball.

In the second run the SMOT is turned 180 deg, the magnets are removed and the ball placed
at the same starting point on the ramp and allowed to fall backward and down the glass
tube to measure the kinetic energy present at the start point.

If the SMOT were not OU, one would expect to see the kinetic energy of the climb & drop
ball to be much less than the falling backward from start point ball due to frictional &
hysteresis losses encountered during the climb & drop.

Remember here that the 113% energy gain reported is NET after losses.

Greg

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 02:45:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:43:43 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: heating the Bricks
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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>Hi Fred,
>
>Now we just have to design it into a small scooter or a motorcycle and we're
>off to the races. It's certainly environmentally friendly. How difficult
>

How are you going to heat these bricks? Don't tell me that you're 
going to plug them in. Electricity just transfers the pollution from 
your local vicinity to the top a tall smokestack. Correct me if I'm 
wrong, but a plug in electrical vehicle, recharged by a coal burning 
power plant produces twice the pollution per vehicle mile as a 
gasoline powered car of comparable weight.

>  > With a good thermal storage and Stirling engine design, one
>  > should be able to get  32 %  (50 btu) out of each pound of thermal
>  > storage as work which would put it even up with the best
>  > storage batteries at 15 watt/hr (50 btu) per pound.

Yah, at ten times the price. You should write this up as a grant 
proposal and see if you can get it funded.

It just occurred to me that if you made the brick out of reactor 
waste it would stay hot all by itself.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 02:50:36 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:43:43 -0600
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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>
>  >
>>Anyone hear anything further on the Paul Brown nuclear battery?
>
>Haven't seen a thing myself.
>
>I though that Paul's patent was a great idea and wanted to get our 
>electric utility to generate electricity from their large pile of 
>reactor waste. Paul has moved on to a new concept which produces 
>energy and simultaneously gets rid of radioneuclides. His technology 
>is owned by Nuclear Solutions http://www.nucsol.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 03:04:11 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
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Subject: Re: Closed System Gravity Assisted Steam Engine
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 03:21:42 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Subject: Re: Closed System Gravity Assisted Steam Engine
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: 
Cc: Colin Quinney 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: Closed System Gravity Assisted Steam Engine


I tried this by inverting a bowl and placing it in a skillet with
about 1/4 inch of water in it. The bowl vibrates very nicely when
the pan is heated on a stovetop burner.

A bowl inverted and placed in a pressure cooker closed
and with wet dishcloths placed on top as a 212 F heat sink
vibrated like gangbusters.

This suggests that such an engine could operate a sealed-in
Linear Generator made from a magnet vibrating up and down
inside a coil. (see websites on Induced EMF).

This should make a genset that can operate over a flame,
or a solar concentrator producing a few hundred watts.

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 04:00:26 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Liquid Air Engines
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Some back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that 
a gram of liquid air (~ 5/6 cm^3)metered with a pump onto
an ambient temperature surface will expand to 
about 500 cm^3 at a pressure of  ~15 psi.(like spitting on
a hot stove).  :-)

This could be used to push a piston, or run
a mini-turbine to get shaft power.

Regards,  Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 05:30:32 2001
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New way to power high-rise buildings?

 http://www.sbp.de/solar/aufwind/pages_auf/techno.htm

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 06:01:22 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Urban trasport in the U.S., Japan, Italy
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Bob Briggs wrote:

>They tried this last year in Santa Cruz, California near where I live.  It
>was a great success the first day, but after two months, no one could find
>any bicycles.  It would probably work better in Japan or Switzerland or maybe
>New England, but I wouldn't recommend it for the West Coast.

There may be a high-tech solution to this. The shopping carts at a fancy 
Atlanta grocery store have radio controlled gadgets on them. When you 
remove them from the parking lot, the wheels lock up. Perhaps something 
like this could be done with the bicycles in Santa Cruz. An alternative 
would be to put the bicycles in automated vending machines like the ones 
used to hold baggage carts in airports. You pay two dollars to rent one, 
and you get back 50 cents when you return the cart to another holder.

The bicycles in Amsterdam (I think it was) were one-speed, heavy, and ugly, 
so there was little incentive to steal them.

Some people might say that a scheme like this smacks of socialism, but I do 
not understand why. The baggage carts in airports are not socialistic. The 
free packets of ketchup, salt and the napkins at McDonald's restaurants are 
not socialistic. People from communist countries visiting U.S. McDonald's 
restaurants used to say that in Moscow all of the salt, sugar and ketchup 
would have disappeared the day the resturant opened. In some ways, people 
capitalist countries are more comfortable with communistic practices than 
communists themselves.

A restaurant manager in the U.S. can offer unlimited supplies of ketchup 
knowing that customers will not steal the entire supply, because ketchup is 
so cheap. Perhaps we could develop "throwaway" bicycles that are so cheap 
no one would bother to steal them. If they could be stamped out at $30 
each, without spokes in the wheels, tubes in the tires, individual ball 
bearings, and other expensive and time-consuming components, you could 
flood a downtown area with them and not worry about the attrition rate. 
Bicycles in discount stores cost about $120.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 06:35:36 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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At 12:12 PM 1/16/1, Jones Beene wrote:

>I suspect that all of the beta emitters would be prohibitively
>expensive if their "real" cost were included in the equation -
>with the possible exception of 40K

>... If only there were a way
>to accelerate the decay rate of that bad boy by a factor of
>10e6!!

[speculation shield on]

I have often suggested here on vortex that a way to increase nuclear decay,
or possibly electron capture, is to increase the flux of orbital electrons
through the nucleus.  One way to increase orbital electron flux through the
nucleus is to accelerate the atom, via centrifuge or other means.  However,
the forces available practically are too small to cause a significant
effect.  Another means is to place the atom in an electrostatic field,
thereby pushing the nucleus off the center of charge, and increasing the
orbital electron flux through the nucleus.  However, that effect too is too
small and, in the extreme, tends to ionize the outer electrons.  The ideal
is to somehow cause the force to be applied from the inside out, so it is
broadly distributed on the outer shell.

The purpose of this post is to explore some possible means of doing this.
The idea is to use a heavy nucleus candicate, and combine it into a
dielectric compound.  Then place the dielctric in an oscillation
electrostatic field..  If a quick enough HV pulse is applied to the
dielectric, the candidate nucleii will oscillated back and forth within
their atoms at a natural frequency. The trick is to apply an oscillating
field in resonance with that vibration, so as to gain the maximum nuclear
dislocation without ionizing the atoms and destroying the dielectric.  Use
of a heavy nucleus might be necessary in order to drop the frequency low
enough to be practical, but who knows, it might even work with KCL or KOH
crystals if the right method is used?

The problem is that, for atomic weight 40 atoms, the vibrational frequency
is on the order of 3.5x10^12 Hz, which is around 84 micron infra-red, and
since the frequency is proportional to the square root of mass, even big
atoms will have a resonant frequency around 10^12 Hz.  A microwave oven
runs at about 2450 MHz, or 2.45x10^9 Hz, about 250 times too slow.  It
might be possible to obtain an oscillating field a few octaves off and
still get resonance, but 250 times is too much. Perhaps an approach is to
zap the candiate nuclei with an infra-red laser, but getting the right
frequency might be difficult.  Bouncing the nuclei around in a plasma would
dislocate the nucleus for sure, but the problem then is getting it to be
dislocated for a large percentage of the time.  Ah well ...

[speculation shield off]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 08:10:10 2001
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Subject: Re: Fw: [off topic] No stinkin' badges by Thomas Sowell
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 <001101c06448$8d52a340$0201a8c0 m>
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I wrote:

>2. Run them through the readers three times, and record the output on a 
>more capable, modern computer. Any desktop PC will do. It would be best to 
>run each batch through a different reader.

I meant to say it would be best to run each batch through three different 
readers. This is standard operating procedure for their processing or 
scientific research, as I am sure readers here recognize.


My point is that this is mundane technical problem, the sort of thing any 
computer operator knows how to deal with. It could have been settled weeks 
ago if both parties had stopped playing politics and delaying tactics. Some 
people have said that 6 million cards is a huge number, but it looks 
trivial to me. I have handled that much data on computers a thousand times 
slower than today's PCs.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 08:10:23 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 07:57:08 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> [speculation shield on]
>
> The problem is that, for atomic weight 40 atoms, the vibrational frequency
> is on the order of 3.5x10^12 Hz, which is around 84 micron infra-red, and
> since the frequency is proportional to the square root of mass, even big
> atoms will have a resonant frequency around 10^12 Hz.  A microwave oven
> runs at about 2450 MHz, or 2.45x10^9 Hz, about 250 times too slow.  It
> might be possible to obtain an oscillating field a few octaves off and
> still get resonance, but 250 times is too much. Perhaps an approach is to
> zap the candiate nuclei with an infra-red laser, but getting the right
> frequency might be difficult.

If one could design a perfect high pass IR filter for the proper frequency,
perhaps by micro-lithography, then perhaps you could just heat the K ions
without using an inefficient laser, as coherency would be lost anyway, and
hitting the exact frequency would be difficult.

What about surrounding a 40K filled, DC driven, plasma tube with a kind of
Dewar that has a reflector foil for low IR (silver),  the foil having been
etched with trillions of 84 micron holes to let out all IR higher than that
wavelength and reflecting back everything else.

Perhaps with the right controls, eventually some fair percentage the plasma
would be stabilized near this required wavelength, particularly if it were a
resonant wavelength?

Hey, add a little H in the tube and maybe you could use the Mills reaction to
self-power the thing.

Horace, when you and I get into a speculation contest, "the sky's the limit"
:-}

>
> [speculation shield off]
>

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 08:42:57 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:25:21 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> As for water see
>
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,3436+asmbly%5Fid,00.html
>

Thanks.

Didn't you find it curious that there is a large gap in slope exactly at the frequency
range in question? UV seems to be "uncharted" in this range so ultimately this graph tells
us little about the issue. Pretty much goes along with Mills contention that the hydrino
has gone unnoticed for so long primarily because few people thought to look in this range.

It would be too easy to say that the slope is likely to be continuous in the hydrino
range-  as there is such a gigantic anomaly in the visible range.

And as I mentioned in a prior post, if past commercial experience has taught us  anything
regarding this issue, it is that the widespread use of UV radiation as a purifier
(bactericide) in water systems of all kinds could simply have never happened - if water
was indeed an effective UV shield.

In fact uv is able to remain effective as ionizing radiation for some significant distance
in these applications - otherwise millions of hot tub users would have come down with
cholera or some other 3rd world disease years ago..

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 10:56:21 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" 
To: 
References: <03a001c08084$a9bc4420$e68f85ce fjsparber>
Subject: Re: Liquid Air Engines
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 13:35:22 -0500
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Here's a compressed air lego car. I wonder how fast it'll go with liquid air
:-)

http://www.physics.fsu.edu/users/rikvold/info/legocars.html

Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Liquid Air Engines


> Some back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that
> a gram of liquid air (~ 5/6 cm^3)metered with a pump onto
> an ambient temperature surface will expand to
> about 500 cm^3 at a pressure of  ~15 psi.(like spitting on
> a hot stove).  :-)
>
> This could be used to push a piston, or run
> a mini-turbine to get shaft power.
>
> Regards,  Frederick
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 12:20:38 2001
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I wrote: "Bicycles in discount stores cost about $120." Correction: more 
like $300 retail for adults. Still, it is not unthinkable that a machine 
could be manufactured for $30 ~ $60. If it were very rugged, sort of like a 
cheap wheelchair, it would be a great boon to the third world, especially 
in Africa. See: "Transportation, Bicycles And Development In Africa: 
Progression or Regression," http://www.ibike.org/tbd.htm#td

An idealistic engineer will find of plenty of things to work on, if only he 
or she can get funded. Simple tools are needed, like the wind-up radios.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 13:28:30 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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Subject: Re: HiFi replication: gas ratios
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:24:45 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:25:21 -0800:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> As for water see
>>
>> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/single_image/0,5716,3436+asmbly%5Fid,00.html
>>
>
>Thanks.
>
>Didn't you find it curious that there is a large gap in slope exactly at the frequency
>range in question? 

Actually, 30 eV is a frequency of 7.2E15 Hz, which if I read it correctly is
at the very peak of the chart (and is still on the chart).
[snip]
>And as I mentioned in a prior post, if past commercial experience has taught us  anything
>regarding this issue, it is that the widespread use of UV radiation as a purifier
>(bactericide) in water systems of all kinds could simply have never happened - if water
>was indeed an effective UV shield.

On the contrary, it is very possible that in this case the UV is completely
absorbed by the water, and responsible for the production of both molecular
and atomic radicals in the water, which chemical species are then
responsible for the bactericidal properties associated with UV.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 13:41:56 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:36:00 +1100
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 05:42:09 -0900:
[snip]
>I have often suggested here on vortex that a way to increase nuclear decay,
>or possibly electron capture, is to increase the flux of orbital electrons
>through the nucleus.  One way to increase orbital electron flux through the
[snip]
>The purpose of this post is to explore some possible means of doing this.
>The idea is to use a heavy nucleus candicate, and combine it into a
>dielectric compound.  Then place the dielctric in an oscillation
>electrostatic field..  If a quick enough HV pulse is applied to the
>dielectric, the candidate nucleii will oscillated back and forth within
>their atoms at a natural frequency. The trick is to apply an oscillating
>field in resonance with that vibration, so as to gain the maximum nuclear
>dislocation without ionizing the atoms and destroying the dielectric.  Use
>of a heavy nucleus might be necessary in order to drop the frequency low
>enough to be practical, but who knows, it might even work with KCL or KOH
>crystals if the right method is used?
[snip]
I think the atom would have a very high Q, so even rather deep sub-harmonics
might work. Perhaps this is the mechanism behind
http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD ?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 15:28:40 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring another vehicle powering concept
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At 7:57 AM 1/17/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> [speculation shield on]
>>
>> The problem is that, for atomic weight 40 atoms, the vibrational frequency
>> is on the order of 3.5x10^12 Hz, which is around 84 micron infra-red, and
>> since the frequency is proportional to the square root of mass, even big
>> atoms will have a resonant frequency around 10^12 Hz.  A microwave oven
>> runs at about 2450 MHz, or 2.45x10^9 Hz, about 250 times too slow.  It
>> might be possible to obtain an oscillating field a few octaves off and
>> still get resonance, but 250 times is too much. Perhaps an approach is to
>> zap the candiate nuclei with an infra-red laser, but getting the right
>> frequency might be difficult.
>
>If one could design a perfect high pass IR filter for the proper frequency,
>perhaps by micro-lithography, then perhaps you could just heat the K ions
>without using an inefficient laser, as coherency would be lost anyway, and
>hitting the exact frequency would be difficult.


Well, part of the problem is thay have to stay in the lattice for the
resoannce to work.  If you have K+ ions then you can simply shoot them into
a super strong magnetic field and they will experience a very strong
centrifuge effect - which might have a measureable effect on half life, but
I wouldn't expect a 10^6 difference.  Also, ion beams are costly to make
and the total mass in them is small.


>
>What about surrounding a 40K filled, DC driven, plasma tube with a kind of
>Dewar that has a reflector foil for low IR (silver),  the foil having been
>etched with trillions of 84 micron holes to let out all IR higher than that
>wavelength and reflecting back everything else.
>
>Perhaps with the right controls, eventually some fair percentage the plasma
>would be stabilized near this required wavelength, particularly if it were a
>resonant wavelength?
>
>Hey, add a little H in the tube and maybe you could use the Mills reaction to
>self-power the thing.
>
>Horace, when you and I get into a speculation contest, "the sky's the limit"
>:-}


Yep.  8^)

It might be possible to generate shorter wavelength radiation and halve the
frequency down to the desired amount, or at least some octave above the
resonant frequency.

Alternatively, perhaps a very strong superconducting magnet could be used
to make a much higher frequency than a standard magnetron and then
waveguides used to frequency double into the right neighborhood.

Another problem is avoiding absorbtion in a thin surface layer. The ideal
crystal would be nearly IR transparent ... I think.  However, it should be
noted that all you really need is 10^12 Hz sonic transducer.  8^)


>> [speculation shield off]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 17:19:24 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring... ZOUNDS!
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At 8:36 AM 1/18/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I think the atom would have a very high Q, so even rather deep sub-harmonics
>might work. Perhaps this is the mechanism behind
>http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=GB763062&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD ?


ZOUNDS! Can this 1951 patent, now public domain, be for real??

The patent calls for irrdadiating 112Cd, 31P0 and 59Co with 3x10^8 Hz EM in
a magnetic field.  None of these are radioisotopes.  They say it produces a
couple hours of betas, gammas, and aphas from only a minute of irradition
in a magnetic field. The magnetic field appears to be fairly weak.

Specificallly, it calls for the following mixture:

   1 Part Co(No3)2  6H2O

   2 Parts CdCl3

   3 Parts 3Ca(Po3)2 + 10C

sandwiched between layers of copper and zink, and in a magnetic field.

Note: the above mixture table is not a bunch of typos on my part, but
copied directly from the patent.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 18:07:10 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 18:02:55 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty 
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Subject: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!!
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What the heck is this:

  http://www.platinumcannonshipwreck.com/


I had been searching on "Bockris" and hit transmutation.com (which I
thought was still dead.)   It links to the above.  Oh boy...


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 18:53:50 2001
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Subject: Re: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!!
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 21:45:30 -0400
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>What the heck is this:
>
>  http://www.platinumcannonshipwreck.com/
>


I have known about this for some time. David E., wanted me to write up 
the story for him, but I begged off. He says the Pt (coated or solid -- 
not clear?) cannon and cannon balls really exist there.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 19:10:46 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Exploring... ZOUNDS!
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:06:34 +1100
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:25:20 -0900:
[snip]
>ZOUNDS! Can this 1951 patent, now public domain, be for real??

Only one real way to find out :).

>
>The patent calls for irrdadiating 112Cd, 31P0 and 59Co with 3x10^8 Hz EM in
>a magnetic field.  None of these are radioisotopes.  They say it produces a
>couple hours of betas, gammas, and aphas from only a minute of irradition
>in a magnetic field. The magnetic field appears to be fairly weak.

My initial impression was that the field and frequency might match the NMR
frequency for one of the isotopes. Possibilities would be:
Cd111,Cd113(25% between them),Co59(100%),Cl35;Cl37 (100% between them), P31
(100%), N(100%).
However a vibrational frequency match, rather than a rotational match, might
make more sense.

Horace, which assumptions did you make in calculating the vibrational
frequency (or did you find it somewhere)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 19:28:38 2001
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You could minimize the size of the boiler with something like an air 
conditioner evaporator
This will allow you to regulate flow eliminating accidental and possibly 
destructive jumps in pressure.  This is a good fast heat exchanger and 
should also allow the use of a great deal of power.   Assuming you store 
the "fuel" in a dewar container it shuld be an easy enough matter pump the 
liquid  at the input to the exchanger.   A couple of check valves and a hot 
spot (ambient) shuld be able to provide injector presure.

And what a great idea for the ride home from work on a HOT Texas summer 
afternoon....
Your AC is your energy source.... :-)

At 04:52 AM 1/17/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Some back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that
>a gram of liquid air (~ 5/6 cm^3)metered with a pump onto
>an ambient temperature surface will expand to
>about 500 cm^3 at a pressure of  ~15 psi.(like spitting on
>a hot stove).  :-)
>
>This could be used to push a piston, or run
>a mini-turbine to get shaft power.
>
>Regards,  Frederick


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 19:44:35 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:38:48 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: low-freq atomic resonance
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On Wed, 17 Jan 2001, Horace Heffner wrote:
> The problem is that, for atomic weight 40 atoms, the vibrational frequency
> is on the order of 3.5x10^12 Hz, which is around 84 micron infra-red, and
> since the frequency is proportional to the square root of mass, even big
> atoms will have a resonant frequency around 10^12 Hz.

All the Keely (and Meyer) stuff involves claims that fairly low
frequencies can have a "resonant" effect upon atoms.  Yet conventional
physics says that all the atomic or molecular resonances are up in the IR
band. 

Here's a possibility.  When two identical pendulums are coupled together
and one pendulum is forced to swing, soon it will lose energy and the
other one will gain it.  Eventually the first pendulum stops moving, and
the second one aquires all the KE.  Then the process reverses, and the
oscillitory KE all slowly "sloshes" back again to the first pendulum over
many cycles.  If the coupling between the pendulums is weak, this process
can have a very low frequency relative to the frequency of each pendulum.

If similar things occur with coupled atoms, then the internal energy of
pairs (or groups) of atoms might be "sloshing" back and forth at very low
frequencies.  The process would be perpetual, and would NOT involve
radiation.  This would involve microscopic local fields rather than
photons (or call it 'virtual photons.') 

As long as the situation was linear, this would have no impact at the
macro scale.  However, if the EM coupling between adjacent atoms is NOT
linear, then perhaps we can pump energy into the system by stretching the
chemical bonds NOT at the resonant frequency of the atoms, but instead at
the "sloshing" frequency. 


PS This whole phenomenon arises in Tesla coils.  The primary and the
secondary coils both have their own resonant frequency, and as the
coupling between them increases, "line splitting" occurs, and the stored
AC energy starts sloshing back and forth.  A frequency spectrum of the
signal is double-peaked, with the distance between the peaks being the
"sloshing frequency."  It's analogous to the splitting of quantized energy
levels into "energy bands" when atoms join together to form solid matter.

Yes, my speculations imply very weird things about atoms.  If the
electrons of ground-state atoms perpetually "orbit" so that they produce
microscopic local AC e-fields, so atoms always act like non-radiating LC
oscillators, then perhaps two adjacent atoms will experience this same
sort of "sloshing" effect seen in Tesla coils.  If the coupling between
them is varied at the "sloshing" frequency, maybe this will extract or
inject energy (it's a "Parametric" effect.) 

If so, then whenever you sing the proper chord at a bottle of water, will
something unexpected occur?

:) 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 20:02:45 2001
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From: David Rosignoli 
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:25:01 -0500:
> 
> >Sort of.
> >
> >Paul's been working on waste remediation, check out
> >his site
> >
> >http://www.nucsol.com/
> AFAIK he sold his interest in the above company, and has disappeared from
> view.

International Fission Fuels became Global Atomics. Paul Brown works
there. See

http://www.globalatomics.com/

Nuclear waste remediation and energy generation are at the goals of his
soon-to-be-publicly-traded company.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 20:36:10 2001
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:28:08 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: gas solubility?
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In the CRC Handbook, the Table of Physical Constants of Inorganic Compounds 
has a column labelled, "Solubility, in grams per 100 cc".  For H2, the 
value in the column is "2.14(0) cm^3", where the (0) is a superscript.  I 
guessing this means that, at zero degrees C, 2.14 cm^3 of H2 gas will 
dissolve in 100 cc of water.  Does that sound right?

Today, I used a few grams of Pd-coated alumina recombiner pellets in the 
gas sample chamber to prove that there is excess O (or a shortage of H) 
coming out of my Mills cell.  When I let the gas from the cell rush into 
the mass spectrometer's sample chamber, I could see both H2 and O2 peaks 
initially.  After a few seconds, both dropped dramatically but the H2 
disappeared entirely leaving a strong O2 peak that remained, along with an 
enhanced H2O peak.

Armed with this confirmation that the RGA (mass spectrometer) was not lying 
about the H:O ratio, I measured the H:O ratio several times, checking the 
RGA calibration with a 2:1 H:O mixture between each analysis of the cell 
gas.  The ratio is now running about 1.6:1, up noticeably from the 1.3:1 I 
observed a couple of days ago.  It DOES look as if something in the cell is 
absorbing H2 and is slowly becoming saturated.

According to my gas ratio measurements, approximately 0.14 grams of H2 have 
"gone missing" since the beginning of this experiment (180 hours 
ago).  At            RTP, that's about 1.7 liters of H2 gas!


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 20:36:13 2001
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So, what is the story with David Hudson, Joe Champion and the "orbitally
rearranged monatomic elements" (ORME)?  Has anyone verified these
claims?

-David Rosignoli

"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> 
> >What the heck is this:
> >
> >  http://www.platinumcannonshipwreck.com/
> >
> 
> I have known about this for some time. David E., wanted me to write up
> the story for him, but I begged off. He says the Pt (coated or solid --
> not clear?) cannon and cannon balls really exist there.
> 
> Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 21:44:31 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: SCALACS Event Announcement
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Greetings Fellow ACS Chemists,

You are receiving this email because you are a member of the Southern
California Section ACS, and from time to time we like to draw your
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coming up next week on Thursday January 25th will be of particular
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The Southern California Section January Dinner Meeting will feature Dr.
Harold Goldwhite, CSULA Professor Emeritus, speaking on "What can we
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 22:07:05 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:05:03 +1100
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 19:38:48 -0800
(PST):
[snip]
>Here's a possibility.  When two identical pendulums are coupled together
>and one pendulum is forced to swing, soon it will lose energy and the
>other one will gain it. 
Do you happen to have the formula for the "sloshing" frequency?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 17 23:25:18 2001
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>Jed wrote:

>The bicycles in Amsterdam (I think it was) were one-speed, heavy, and 
>ugly, so there was little incentive to steal them.
>
>Some people might say that a scheme like this smacks of socialism, but I 
>do not understand why. The baggage carts in airports are not socialistic. 
>The free packets of ketchup, salt and the napkins at McDonald's 
>restaurants are not socialistic. People from communist countries visiting 
>U.S. McDonald's restaurants used to say that in Moscow all of the salt, 
>sugar and ketchup would have disappeared the day the resturant opened. In 
>some ways, people capitalist countries are more comfortable with 
>communistic practices than communists themselves.

I tried to live in A'dam for a while in 1983 or 84 I think, but got thrown 
out for cracking an apartment.  Amsterdam is one of the coolest and 
weirdest cities on Earth.  I liked it there almost as much as Seattle.  The 
people embrace or accept a mixture of idealisms and social contractualisms 
that allow some really absurd things to happen in the name of Social 
Experimentation.  As an example, there was a legal mechanism that young 
people in the city used for squatting any condemned building at the time, 
which provided them with very cheap shelter, so long as they cracked it in 
a certain narrowly proscribed manner, and registered it with the city 
authorities.  The city is constantly undergoing renovation, and the backlog 
of construction projects left many old, but servicable buildings 
technically condemned, but still standing for long periods of time, 
sometimes for five years or more.  The waiting time for a legitimate 
apartment was about 5 years, and the young people couldn't afford them 
anyway, so they would all just hunt around for a condemned one and crack 
it.  If you could hold it for 3 days, you could register it with the city, 
and it was yours for a small, monthly utility fee.  It wasn't the best 
solution to the housing shortage problem there, but they made do with it.

Anyone holding a passport from a European Union nation at the time had the 
legal right to crack one actually, and during the summer months especially, 
Amsterdam was a mecca for young people from all over Europe who wanted a 
cheap, wild vacation.  Basically, everybody I knew in Amsterdam (and I knew 
about 30 people back then) lived in cracks.  Most of them were college 
students that were born and raised in Amsterdam, but I stayed for a night 
with some Brits who had organized a cracker's union, as well.  From what I 
understand, the legitimate housing situation was so tightly controlled, and 
expensive that even quite a few of the elderly population would crack an 
apartment or hire an organization such as the British one to do so for 
them.  It was a socially acceptable, and not entirely unheard of thing for 
an otherwise respectable looking older lady to be seen prying open a window 
of a condemned apartment building with a crowbar, and crawling inside.  An 
American however, was not entitled to the same legal protections with 
regard to "requisitioning" housing as I found out, and I was politely asked 
by the authorities to leave the country at once.  They were very civilized 
about it though, to the point of being apologetic I have to add.  As a wide 
characterization, the authorities there were very tolerant, and at the 
heart, humane in their treatment of all people.  I never had any trouble 
getting back into Amsterdam later either, so I am assuming that the entire 
incident didn't even make it on to the record books.

I was able to stay long enough however, to learn a few details about the 
bicycle thing, and it was fairly interesting as well.  After WWII, there 
were enormous fuel shortages for all Europeans, and the roads in many areas 
had been destroyed to the point where using a car or any motorized vehicle 
was neither affordable nor even possible in some areas.  The City, in its' 
infinite wisdom, came up with the idea of buying a bunch of bicycles, and 
making them available to the public with certain provisos attached.  The 
idea was that people really only needed transportation for limited amounts 
of time during the day, and that if someone saw a City Bicycle leaning up 
against a fence or a wall, that they could take it and use it to go where 
they wanted.  When they got there, they were supposed to just leave it 
outside for the next person to use.

It was a great idea that immediately got people mobile again, but it 
presented some difficulties for some people who felt that they needed to 
have access to the bicycle for themselves all day, so people started buying 
locks and putting them on the bicycles when they weren't in use.  In many 
cases this was a situation where a delivery person needed constant access, 
or a person would get tired of going to a store, buying something and then 
having to find another bicycle for the trip home, so they just started 
locking them up to make sure that they would be there when they needed 
them.  Other people however, decided that this violated the spirit of the 
endeavor, and they felt justified in either cutting the locks or picking 
them, or even dismantling the locked portions of the bicycle and making off 
with the rest of it.  As a result, lockpicking and bicycle repair became 
major hobbies for many citizens.  When I was there, you could walk past any 
chain linked fence for example, and see as many as 30 - 50 front or rear 
bicycle wheels locked to the fence, with the rest of the bicycle 
missing.  It was like a form of sculpture.  Wheels locked to wheels on top 
of wheels.

To dissuade people from stealing the portions of the bicycles that couldn't 
be locked, many people would "uglify" their bicycles by spray painting them 
black.  Generally this alone would not be enough to discourage attempts at 
further requisitioning by others, so many people would also would hammer 
the wheels out of round, hammer the frames into funny shapes, and do all 
kinds of other crazy things to the seats and handlebars to make them so 
ugly and difficult to ride that no one would want them.  It pretty much 
worked.  Then they would all carry several of these great big, honking 
bicycle locks with them where ever they went, so that they could 
effectively interlock all of the bicycle's major components together to a 
fence or a pole whenever they needed to be left unattended in a public 
area.  These also took on the look of an artform.  In fact, just riding one 
of these contraptions was usually an artform in and of itself, and the 
inhabitants of the city seemed to celebrate in the mastery of their own 
individual, horribly malformed, hand painted, wobbly, super-uglified, 
bi-wheeled creations.  Not only did they learn to ride these monsters, but 
they could also do a lot of trick riding with them too, making them ride on 
one wheel or riding them down stairwells, etc..  They were great fun.

Inexpensive public works projects like that are good ideas generally, even 
if they don't always turn out the way the administrators envisioned.  The 
apparent downside to someone who was not culturally accustomed to this 
phenomenon, was that as almost a matter of necessity, it turned the 
citizenry of an entire city into some of the best bicycle thieves and 
apartment crackers in the world.  On the upside, everyone seemed to be 
having a really good time doing it, they became expert locksmiths at a very 
young age, and the police just let it all happen.  I don't know what it is 
like there today, but 15 years ago, nobody, and I mean No Body, rode a 
bicycle in public that they actually bought.  If they tried, it would be 
stolen within seconds after leaving it unattended.

I have sort of seen similar things happen in other parts of the world, such 
as some of the wild gyrations that people will go through to copy a piece 
of commercial software, or store a copyrighted musical work onto their 
computers, or have a sexual relationship with another person without all of 
the legal entanglements or to make a long distance phone call without 
paying AT&T.  For some people, it seems that those things wouldn't be any 
fun at all if they weren't illegal.

This Kamen story is a good example.  If I read the initial reports 
correctly, the entire story started after somebody stole an e-mail from one 
of the insiders at the publishing company, and leaked it to the 
press.  After that, I'm sure that Kamen and every person that Kamen came 
into contact with thereafter had their computers hacked to the max by other 
people looking for more information on it.  Hacking and information theft 
have just become such widespread phenomena that people do it in broad 
daylight now without fear, excuses or apparent need for even the flimsiest 
attempt at justification.  It is left entirely up to the individual to 
protect their own communications, data, transactions, etc., and that has 
been proving increasingly more difficult for most people, and in high 
profile cases like Kamen's, it will be impossible to do so.

Under the circumstances, if I were Kamen, I would just present the thing to 
the public, and allow the thing/concept/whatever it is to be developed 
further in the public domain.  If it is really something as important as 
the Internet, there is realistically no way that he can stop that from 
happening anyway, and it would save the rest of the world a lot of time and 
money that will be spent on spying on him for the next two years.  As a 
benefit, he may gain from the experience, expertise, and help of the rest 
of the science and engineering community, and the world will be a better 
place that much sooner.  There is also no way that he can produce the best 
embodiment or application of the concept on his own.  If he lets it out to 
the public, and it has more than one application, he will save the world 
decades of development time by being open and cooperative about it.

Knuke


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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 02:52:30 -0500 (EST)
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	There is no safe level of ingested radioactive material.

	Any is too much

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 00:28:04 2001
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At 2:06 PM 1/18/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Horace, which assumptions did you make in calculating the vibrational
>frequency (or did you find it somewhere)?


I found it in Solid State Physics, by H. E. Hall, John Wiley & Sons, 1974,
p. 48, ff.  He derives a rough estimate of the frequency under the
assumptions that the lattice is a bunch of point masses with springs
separating them.  He assumes the masses are mass M, with separation a, and
spring constant is K.  He estimates the spring constant under the
assumption that the potential energy of a pair of atoms is raised by about
1 eV when their (typically about 3 angstrom) separation is changed from
equilibrium by about 1 angstrom.  This gives a value for K of about 30 N/m.
The frequency in Hz, nu, is given by:

  nu = (1/(2 Pi))(K/M)^(1/2)

This is of course no QM calculation, just a rule of thumb kind of thing,
but is not too far off.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 00:46:21 2001
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What is the patent number?  If you please.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 05:31:51 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 08:27:08 -0400
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-
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns227439

A clear winner
Magnets and microchips combine in a transparent supermaterial

IN THE movie Superman, the Man of Steel discovers why he was jettisoned 
from
the doomed planet Krypton by watching a video message stored on a
transparent crystal. Now, more than 20 years on, Japanese scientists are
working on a revolutionary new semiconductor that might one day be turned
into just this kind of gadget.

Computer displays made of the material will have all the image processing
and memory circuits invisibly buried in the screen itself, making them
cheaper and less power hungry than today's displays.

A team led by Yuji Matsumoto of the Tokyo Institute of Technology (Titech)
in Yokohama were looking for a material that was both a semiconductor and 
a
permanent magnet, or "ferromagnet". They succeeded--and were amazed to 
find
that the material is transparent as well.

Best of all, the new material works at room temperature. "This is a very
important step," says Hideo Ohno, a semiconductor physicist at Tohoku
University in Sendai. "If it didn't work at room temperature it would be 
no
good for use in everyday applications." Ohno and his colleagues have 
created
a ferromagnetic semiconductor of their own by mixing manganese into 
gallium
arsenide. But their material is opaque, and only works at a frigid 110
kelvin.

To produce magnetic semiconductors that can stand the heat, the Titech 
team
with colleagues from the National Institute for Research in Inorganic
Materials in Tsukuba turned to a technique called combinatorial chemistry.
They carried out thousands of tiny chemical reactions simultaneously in a
vacuum, each with slightly different ingredients. They then screened the
products of the different reactions en masse to see which had the best
properties.

Matsumoto and his colleagues will soon report in Science that one of the
reactions produced a thin film of titanium dioxide doped with just under 8
per cent cobalt. This transparent material turned out to be both
semiconducting and permanently magnetic at room temperature. Using 
magnetic
microscopy the researchers found areas in the material where electron 
spins
line up spontaneously to produce magnetism.

The Titech researchers say they don't know why the cobalt has this effect.
"We need to accumulate more data," says team member Hideomi Koinuma.

Ohno says the discovery is important in the emerging field of 
"spintronics",
in which engineers hope to harness both the charge-carrying aspects of
electrons and their spin, which is the root of magnetism. Because the
material is magnetic parts of it could store data in much the same way as 
a
computer hard drive. And as a semiconductor, other parts could process
information like the transistors in a microchip.

Ohno says the material will most likely be turned into flat-panel displays
which have all their processing and storage circuits invisibly built-in.
"Currently, transistors in laptop displays absorb a quarter of the
brightness of the backlight. Transparent transistors could solve this."

Paul Marks
>From New Scientist magazine, 20 January 2001.





----------------- End Forwarded Message -----------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 07:26:39 2001
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Gene Mallove will appear with Richard Hoagland on "Coast-to-Coast" radio 
with Mike Siegal, Friday 1/19/2001 from 1:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. (eastern 
time).

It will be with a moderated (not moderate!) conversation about various 
scientific heresies -- cold fusion, other new energy sources, Mars 
imagry,  even IT/Ginger.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 07:54:14 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:36:04 -0600
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From: Scott Little 
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At 02:52 AM 1/18/01 -0500, John Schnurer wrote:


>         There is no safe level of ingested radioactive material.
>
>         Any is too much


Better start a strict diet of no food, John.  ALL our foods contain very 
low levels of naturally occurring radioisotopes (e.g. K-40).



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 08:10:34 2001
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From: "Tz'Akh" 
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" 
Subject: RE: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!! (read: ORMUS)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:53:15 -0500
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there's been some real interesting research that's come out of working with
'ORME' water of late.  'ORME' may actually be a misnomer, it's not yet been
absolutely determined that the elements are monoatomic, they may be
diatomic.  in any effevt, they're generically called 'm-state', and they do
exhibit the meisner effect.  wha'ts more is that m-state water, if left to
sit, will naturally begin to spiral (more-so in the total absence of light).
it's also reactive to the aura, induces clairvoyance, etc......

if there's interested heads, i'll furnish some info.



-Tz'Akh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Rosignoli [mailto:drdaveor enter.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:25 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!!
> 
> 
> So, what is the story with David Hudson, Joe Champion and the 
> "orbitally
> rearranged monatomic elements" (ORME)?  Has anyone verified these
> claims?
> 
> -David Rosignoli
> 
> "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> > 
> > >What the heck is this:
> > >
> > >  http://www.platinumcannonshipwreck.com/
> > >
> > 
> > I have known about this for some time. David E., wanted me 
> to write up
> > the story for him, but I begged off. He says the Pt (coated 
> or solid --
> > not clear?) cannon and cannon balls really exist there.
> > 
> > Gene Mallove
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 08:17:07 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:10:06 -0500
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Subject: Test of electric propulsion
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  I had one of my daughters do a test for her science project of the 
electric powered flying wing with a design similar to that described 
by Jean-Louis Naudin at:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/advprop.htm

We used a supply of about 25,000 volts which was larger than the 
10,000 volts recommended in the website.  The device worked great. 
It generated a remarkable amount of thrust.  The design on the 
website calls for the wire in front of the wing to be charged 
negative.  The negative charge worked but the positive charge worked 
much better.  So I would say that the wire should be positive and the 
wing negative.
   The definitive test was done by enclosing the device in plastic 
wrap.  On Jean-Louis' site it was claimed that the test still works 
when the device is enclosed in a plastic bag.  Then the ion wind 
would be trapped and it could not generate any thrust.  However in 
our test there was zero thrust generated when the wing was enclosed 
in plastic wrap. The wing was suspended by a line hooked to ball 
bearing fishing line swivels.  Even though the drag from the swivels 
was very small the wrapped wing was unable to overcome it.  There 
were a few degrees of slack with much lower torque before the full 
resistance of the swivels was encountered and the wrapped wing would 
not even move through this region of reduced torque. The unwrapped 
wing with the wire positive rotated so fast that I was unable to 
count the revolutions on a video I took. I have pictures and the 
video and may put them out on a website.  I think I have a website 
service available but I have never used it.  I could send the 
documentation to Jean-Louis but I would guess that he would not be 
too pleased with the wrapped wing test results.



Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 09:31:29 2001
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William Beaty wrote:

If similar things occur with coupled atoms, then
the internal energy of

pairs (or groups) of atoms might be "sloshing" back and forth at very
low

frequencies.  The process would be perpetual, and would NOT involve

radiation.  This would involve microscopic local fields rather
than

photons (or call it 'virtual photons.')

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

HH>The patent calls for irradiating 112Cd, 31P0 and 59Co with 3x10^8
Hz EM in

>a magnetic field.  None of these are radioisotopes.  They
say it produces a

>couple hours of betas, gammas, and aphas from only a minute of irradiation

>in a magnetic field. The magnetic field appears to be fairly weak.



My initial impression was that the field and frequency might match the NMR
frequency for one of the isotopes...However a vibrational frequency match, rather 
than a rotational match, might make more sense.





Could there be a derivative possibility to consider:

A higher level tertiary "sloshing," as WB suggests,  being induced
between the vibrational and the rotational frequencies?

OTOH, the vibrational frequency appears so far removed from the NMR
frequency, as a general rule, that this kind of interaction would seem
to be unlikely.

If nuclear reactions do indeed result from applied field stimulation/interactions,
then the process could even become self-reinforcing - no virtual photons
required! (see below- this AIP update may shed some light on this - but
its relevance is minimal to the patent itself - as these guys are using
ions with 40+ electrons removed!!!)

Jones

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE

The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News

Number 500  August 31, 2000   by Phillip F. Schewe and
Ben Stein

NUCLEAR ENERGY USED TO EXCITE ATOMS.  A

multinational team of physicists has observed for the first time a

process in which the energy freed up by a nucleus relaxing to a

lower state is used to excite an electron in the surrounding atom to
a

higher energy state.  Normally atomic and nuclear phenomena are

separate, mainly because the energies typifying atomic transitions

(an electron moving from one quantum state to another) is measured

in electrons volts (eV) or less, whereas analogous nuclear transitions

are typically on the order of thousands or millions of eV.  But
for

some heavy ions, which have been relieved of many their electrons

(making the attraction between the nucleus and the remaining

unshielded electrons all that much more powerful), the spacing

between atomic states can actually exceed the spacing between

nuclear states....

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 09:44:32 2001
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At the voltage you are using, wouldn't the charge be distributed
over the area, through the wrap...??....thereby changing the
field shape...??

JN has always seemed to be open to any comments both positive and
negative concerning his experiments....a lot more then some I have
run across.......am sure he would like to hear from you....

thank you....steve opelc

Larry Wharton wrote:
> 
>   I had one of my daughters do a test for her science project of the
> electric powered flying wing with a design similar to that described
> by Jean-Louis Naudin at:
> 
> http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/advprop.htm
> 
> We used a supply of about 25,000 volts which was larger than the
> 10,000 volts recommended in the website.  The device worked great.

>    The definitive test was done by enclosing the device in plastic
> wrap.  On Jean-Louis' site it was claimed that the test still works
> when the device is enclosed in a plastic bag.  Then the ion wind
> would be trapped and it could not generate any thrust.  However in
> our test there was zero thrust generated when the wing was enclosed
> in plastic wrap. The wing was suspended by a line hooked to ball
> bearing fishing line swivels.  Even though the drag from the swivels
> was very small the wrapped wing was unable to overcome it.  There

> Lawrence E. Wharton
> NASA/GSFC code 913
> Greenbelt MD 20771
> (301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 10:08:59 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:56:39 -0600
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I just (finally) noticed that my gas ratio measurement strategy is 
flawed.  I'm filling a chamber with the correct gas mixture (determined by 
pressure ratios, measured with a good capacitance manometer)...but then I 
open a fine needle valve to admit that mixture into the RGA.

The problem is that H2 flows through that valve more readily than does 
O2.  Thus the valve itself distorts the ratio by enhancing the H2 over the 
O2.   After about half the gas sample has flowed through the valve, the 
reported H:O ratio has DOUBLED!  The reason I didn't notice this before is 
that it takes about 45 minutes for half of the sample to flow thru the 
valve and usually I've got all the readings taken and recorded in about 5 
minutes.  However, it still means that the valve is distorting the true H:O 
ratio.

However, to first order, I've already built this effect into my custom 
calibration of the RGA system.  That's because I use exactly the same 
chamber and valve system for the calibration gases.  So my previous claims 
that the H:O ratio coming from the cell is lower than 2:1 still stand...but 
I that doesn't make me like this situation very much.

Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a 
way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the 
high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things 
like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the 
present effect.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 10:38:19 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Exploring... ZOUNDS!
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At 3:50 AM 1/18/1, John Schnurer wrote:
>What is the patent number?  If you please.

It is the British patent GB763062 provided by Robin. See his ref.:



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Scott Little wrote:

> According to my gas ratio measurements, approximately 0.14 grams of H2 have
> "gone missing" since the beginning of this experiment (180 hours
> ago).  At  RTP, that's about 1.7 liters of H2 gas!

Since you have not yet ruled out the possibility that the shortfall could be
caused by hydrino formation, but since you are not convinced that the Mill's
reaction is indeed taking place and since the the Mill's reaction cannot be
proven by spectrographic analysis from photons (apparently), isn't there some
easy low tech way to gather hydrinos external to the Dewars (assuming that they
pass through the Dewar walls)?

Does Mills have any suggestion for structural material that can contain them,
or is that proprietary information?

For instance, simple 5 mil polyethylene film is used for the isolation suits
worn in tritium environments because not only is it cheap and flexible but it
works very well. If polyethylene film were even partially effective for
containing hydrinos it would be possible to "tent" your experiment and allow
the hydrinos to displace air from the top of the tent - this in order to get an
enriched feed to use for some sort of detection scheme?

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 10:55:29 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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At 11:56 AM 1/18/1, Scott Little wrote:

>Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a
>way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the
>high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things
>like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the
>present effect.


You could use an intermediate buffer compartment, e.g. a syringe, which
would be filled and then completely injected into the RGA over the course
of the analysis. The average would then be correct. The ouput valve would
be a neele valve, but the input valve could be wide open, to the full
diameter of the supply line (which BTW would also preferentially retard
oxygen) when the compartment is initially filled because the output valve
would be closed or not flowing at a high rate.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 11:06:21 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: gas solubility?
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My experience with polyethylene film is that it is NOT a good long term
container for H2 unless it is aluminized.

If an orbitsphere has an apparent charge, then perhaps hyrdinos could be
collected or concentrated using high voltage DC electrodes in the vicinity.
However, if hydrino has an apparent charge, then I would expect it to bond
to most anything and have a very low diffusion rate through glass, plastic,
etc. One of the problems is that Mills could be right about their existence
and wrong in his theory, so there is no telling exactly what is what until
things are made clear experimentally.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 11:42:39 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Transparent Magnet
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At 8:27 AM 1/18/1, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
[snip]
> ... Tsukuba turned to a technique called combinatorial chemistry.
>They carried out thousands of tiny chemical reactions simultaneously in a
>vacuum, each with slightly different ingredients. They then screened the
>products of the different reactions en masse to see which had the best
>properties.


Wow, "combinatorial chemistry!"   This is a name that avoids the clouded
and often disdained term: "Edisonian method."   The Edisonian method is to
Sicence as the "British museum algorithm" is to computer science.  This
term implies that the British museum collects (or did collect) everything
and thereby always collects the important things.  As applied to
algorithms, it means examining every possible solution in order to find the
best solution.

For years I have proposed it is exactly the Edisonian method that is
required to quickly advance the field of cold fusion. There are clearly
important energy producing things happening that are not undersood. Due to
the enomous potential for humainity and the potential to avert the pending
energy demand related disasters, the resources to employ the Edisonian
method are clearly warranted.  To some extent, this is what we are engaged
in on the vortex list, but progress will be slow due to lack of funding,
coordination of effort, and a sufficient number of workers.  A means to
PRODUCITVELY allocate some of the huge world budget for resarch needs to be
found.  This is a project that it seems does not come close to rivaling the
human genome project, but it certainly would require a similar degree of
automation and concerted planning.

Perhaps all that is really needed to get the ball rolling is a name, a
credible name advanced by credible people, a name like "combinatorial
nucleonics?"

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 11:49:39 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: low-freq atomic resonance
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Jones, could you please opt to send text? This is really cumbersome to read.


At 9:14 AM 1/18/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>
>
>William Beaty wrote:
>
If similar things occur with coupled atoms, then
>the internal energy of
>
pairs (or groups) of atoms might be "sloshing" back and forth at very
>low
>
frequencies.  The process would be perpetual, and would NOT involve
>
radiation.  This would involve microscopic local fields rather
>than
>
photons (or call it 'virtual photons.')

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
HH>The patent calls for irradiating 112Cd, 31P0 and 59Co with 3x10^8
>Hz EM in
>
>a magnetic field.  None of these are radioisotopes.  They
>say it produces a
>
>couple hours of betas, gammas, and aphas from only a minute of irradiation
>
>in a magnetic field. The magnetic field appears to be fairly weak.
>

>
My initial impression was that the field and frequency might match the NMR
>frequency for one of the isotopes...However a vibrational frequency match,
>rather 
>than a rotational match, might make more sense.

>

>
>
Could there be a derivative possibility to consider:
>
A higher level tertiary "sloshing," as WB suggests,  being induced
>between the vibrational and the rotational frequencies?
>
OTOH, the vibrational frequency appears so far removed from the NMR
>frequency, as a general rule, that this kind of interaction would seem
>to be unlikely.
>
If nuclear reactions do indeed result from applied field
>stimulation/interactions,
>then the process could even become self-reinforcing - no virtual photons
>required! (see below- this AIP update may shed some light on this - but
>its relevance is minimal to the patent itself - as these guys are using
>ions with 40+ electrons removed!!!)
>
Jones
>
PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE
>
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
>
Number 500  August 31, 2000   by Phillip F. Schewe and
>Ben Stein
>
NUCLEAR ENERGY USED TO EXCITE ATOMS.  A
>
multinational team of physicists has observed for the first time a
>
process in which the energy freed up by a nucleus relaxing to a
>
lower state is used to excite an electron in the surrounding atom to
>a
>
higher energy state.  Normally atomic and nuclear phenomena are
>
separate, mainly because the energies typifying atomic transitions
>
(an electron moving from one quantum state to another) is measured
>
in electrons volts (eV) or less, whereas analogous nuclear transitions
>
are typically on the order of thousands or millions of eV.  But
>for
>
some heavy ions, which have been relieved of many their electrons
>
(making the attraction between the nucleus and the remaining
>
unshielded electrons all that much more powerful), the spacing
>
between atomic states can actually exceed the spacing between
>
nuclear states....

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 11:52:10 2001
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Subject: Re: gas solubility,  Gas Diffusion/Effusion
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Chemical Sciences: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws: =
Velocities of Molecules, Effusion, and Diffusion
Chemical Sciences
The Structure of Matter
The Nature of Gases
Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws:
Velocities of Molecules
Since the number of molecules of gas present anywhere, N, is given by =
nNA, it is possible to rewrite the overall kinetic energy expression as=20
Ek =3D nNAmv2/2 =3D nMv2/2=20

In this expression m is the mass of a single molecule, so the molar mass =
M is the product mNA. Since the kinetic energy is also 3nRT/2, the =
square root of the square of the mean velocity, known as the =
root-mean-square velocity v(rms), of the molecules of the gas is =
proportional to the square root of its molar mass. The root-mean-square =
velocity, like the actual distribution of velocities embodied in the =
Maxwell law, is a function only of the absolute temperature.=20

v(rms) =3D (the square root of)3RT/M=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Example. Let us calculate the root-mean-square velocity of oxygen =
molecules at room temperature, 25oC. Using v(rms) =3D (the square root =
of)3RT/M, the molar mass of molecular oxygen is 31.9998 g/mol; the molar =
gas constant has the value 8.3143 J/mol K, and the temperature is 298.15 =
K. Since the joule is the kg-m2/s2, the molar mass must be expressed as =
0.0319998 kg/mol. The root-mean-square velocity is then given by:=20
v(rms) =3D (the square root of)3(8.3143)(298.15)/(0.0319998) =3D 482.1 =
m/s=20

A speed of 482.1 m/s is 1726 km/h, much faster than a jetliner can fly =
and faster than most rifle bullets.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
The very high speed of gas molecules under normal room conditions would =
indicate that a gas molecule would travel across a room almost =
instantly. In fact, gas molecules do not do so. If a small sample of the =
very odorous (and poisonous!) gas hydrogen sulfide is released in one =
corner of a room, our noses will not detect it in another corner of the =
room for several minutes unless the air is vigorously stirred by a =
mechanical fan. The slow diffusion of gas molecules which are moving =
very quickly occurs because the gas molecules travel only short =
distances in straight lines before they are deflected in a new direction =
by collision with other gas molecules.=20
The distance any single molecule travels between collisions will vary =
from very short to very long distances, but the average distance that a =
molecule travels between collisions in a gas can be calculated. This =
distance is called the mean free path l of the gas molecules. If the =
root-mean-square velocity is divided by the mean free path of the gas =
molecules, the result will be the number of collisions one molecule =
undergoes per second. This number is called the collision frequency Z1 =
of the gas molecules.=20

The postulates of the kinetic-molecular theory of gases permit the =
calculation of the mean free path of gas molecules. The gas molecules =
are visualized as small hard spheres. A sphere of diameter d sweeps =
through a cylinder of cross-sectional area (pi)d2 and length v(rms) each =
second, colliding with all molecules in the cylinder, as shown in the =
Figure below.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Figure is not available.=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
The radius of the end of the cylinder is d because two molecules will =
collide if their diameters overlap at all. This description of =
collisions with stationary gas molecules is not quite accurate, however, =
because the gas molecules are all moving relative to each other. Those =
relative velocities range between zero for two molecules moving in the =
same direction and 2v(rms) for a head-on collision. The average relative =
velocity is that of a collision at right angles, which is v(rms) times =
the square root of 2. The total number of collisions per second per unit =
volume, Z1, is=20
Z1 =3D (pi)d2v(rms)(the square root of)2=20

This total number of collisions must now be divided by the number of =
molecules which are present per unit volume. The number of gas molecules =
present per unit volume is found by rearrangement of the ideal gas law =
to n/V =3D p/RT and use of Avogadro's number, n =3D N/NA; thus N/V =3D =
pNA/RT. This gives the mean free path of the gas molecules, l, as=20

(v(rms)/Z1)/(N/V) =3D l =3D RT/(pi)d2pNA(the square root of)2=20

According to this expression, the mean free path of the molecules should =
get longer as the temperature increases; as the pressure decreases; and =
as the size of the molecules decreases.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Example. Let us calculate the length of the mean free path of oxygen =
molecules at room temperature, 25oC, taking the molecular diameter of an =
oxygen molecule as 370 pm. Using the formula for mean free path given =
above and the value of the root-mean-square velocity vrms calculated in =
the previous example,=20
l =3D (8.3143 kg m2/s2K mol)(298.15 K)/3.14159(370 x 10-12 m)2(101325 =
kg/m s2) (6.0225 x 10+23 mol-1)((the square root of)2),=20

so l =3D 6.7 x 10-8 m =3D 67 nm. The utility of SI units and of the =
quantity calculus in this example should be obvious.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
The apparently slow diffusion of gas molecules takes place because the =
molecules travel only a very short distance before colliding. At room =
temperature and atmospheric pressure, oxygen molecules travel only (6.7 =
x 10-8 m)/(370 x 10-12 m) =3D 180 molecular diameters between =
collisions. The same thing can be pointed out using the collision =
frequency for a single molecule Z1, which is the root-mean-square =
velocity divided by the mean free path:=20
Z1 =3D (pi)d2pNA(the square root of)2/RT=20

For oxygen at room temperature, each gas molecule collides with another =
every 0.13 nanoseconds (one nanosecond is 1.0 x 10-9 s), since the =
collision frequency is 7.2 x 109 collisions per second per molecule.=20

For an ideal gas, the number of molecules per unit volume is given using =
pV =3D nRT and n =3D N/NA as=20

N/V =3D NAp/RT=20

which for oxygen at 25oC would be (6.0225 x 10+23 mol-1)(101325 kg/m =
s2)/(8.3143 kg m2/s2 K mol)(298.15 K) or 2.46 x 10+25 molecules/m3. The =
number of collisions between two molecules in a volume, Z11, would then =
be the product of the number of collisions each molecule makes times the =
number of molecules there are, Z1N/V, except that this would count each =
collision twice (since two molecules are involved in each one =
collision). The correct equation must be=20

Z11 =3D (pi)d2p2NA2v(rms) (the square root of)2/2R2T2=20

If the molecules present in the gas had different masses they would also =
have different speeds, so an average value of v(rms) would be using a =
weighted average of the molar masses; the partial pressures of the =
different gases in the mixture would also be required. Although such =
calculations involve no new principles, they are beyond our scope. =
However, the number of collisions which occur per second in gases and in =
liquids are extremely important in chemical kinetics, so we shall return =
to this topic in other sections.=20

Graham's Law of Effusion and Diffusion
Root-mean-square velocities of gas molecules are sometimes directly =
useful, but the comparison of velocities explains the results of, and is =
useful in, studies of effusion of molecules through a small hole in a =
container or diffusion of molecules through porous barriers. The =
comparison between two gases is most conveniently expressed as:=20
v(rms)1/v(rms)2 =3D (the square root of)(M2/M1) =3D (the square root =
of)(d2/d1)=20

This equation gives the velocity ratio in terms of either the molar mass =
ratio or the ratio of densities d. The ratio of root-mean-square =
velocities is also the ratio of the rates of effusion, the process by =
which gases escape from containers through small holes, and the ratio of =
the rates of diffusion of gases.=20

This equation is called Graham's law of diffusion and effusion because =
it was observed by Thomas Graham (1805-1869) well before the =
kinetic-molecular theory of gases was developed. As an empirical law, it =
simply stated that the rates of diffusion and of effusion of gases =
varied as the square root of the densities of the gases. Graham's law is =
the basis of many separations of gases. The most significant is the =
separation of the isotopes of uranium as the gases 238UF6 and 235UF6. =
Fluorine has only one isotope, so the separation on the basis of molar =
mass is really a separation on the basis of isotopic mass.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Example. The ratio of root-mean-square velocities of 238UF6 and 235UF6 =
can be calculated as follows. The molar mass of 238UF6 is 348.0343 and =
the molar mass of 238UF6 is 352.0412. The mass ratio is 1.011513 and the =
ratio of root-mean-square velocities is 1.00574. Although the difference =
is small, many kilograms of 235U have been separated using this =
difference in the gas-diffusion separation plant at Oak Ridge, =
Tennessee, U. S. A. This plant prepared the uranium for the Manhattan =
Project of the Second World War and produced the uranum used in the =
uranium atomic bomb dropped on Japan in 1945.=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
[NEXT: Equations of State for Gases]=20
[PREVIOUS: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws: Partial =
Pressure]=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Copyright 1995 James A. Plambeck (Jim.Plambeck ualberta.ca). Updated =
September 26, 1995.

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Chemical Sciences: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains =
the Gas Laws: Velocities of Molecules, Effusion, and Diffusion






 


Chemical Sciences


The Structure of Matter


The Nature of Gases


Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws:


Velocities of Molecules
Since the number of molecules of gas =
present=20
anywhere, N, is given by nNA, it is possible to =
rewrite=20
the overall kinetic energy expression as=20

Ek =3D nNAmv2/2 =
=3D=20
nMv2/2=20

In this expression m is the mass of a single molecule, so the =
molar=20
mass M is the product mNA. Since the kinetic =
energy is=20
also 3nRT/2, the square root of the square of the mean velocity, =
known as=20
the root-mean-square velocity v(rms), of the molecules of the gas =
is=20
proportional to the square root of its molar mass. The root-mean-square=20
velocity, like the actual distribution of velocities embodied in the =
Maxwell=20
law, is a function only of the absolute temperature.=20

v(rms) =3D (the square root of)3RT/M=20


Example. Let us calculate the root-mean-square velocity of oxygen =
molecules at=20
room temperature, 25oC. Using v(rms) =3D (the square =
root=20
of)3RT/M, the molar mass of molecular oxygen is 31.9998 =
g/mol; the=20
molar gas constant has the value 8.3143 J/mol K, and the temperature is =
298.15=20
K. Since the joule is the kg-m2/s2, the molar mass =
must be=20
expressed as 0.0319998 kg/mol. The root-mean-square velocity is then =
given by:=20

v(rms) =3D (the square root of)3(8.3143)(298.15)/(0.0319998) =
=3D 482.1 m/s=20


A speed of 482.1 m/s is 1726 km/h, much faster than a jetliner can =
fly and=20
faster than most rifle bullets.=20


The very high speed of gas molecules under normal room conditions would =
indicate=20
that a gas molecule would travel across a room almost instantly. In =
fact, gas=20
molecules do not do so. If a small sample of the very odorous (and =
poisonous!)=20
gas hydrogen sulfide is released in one corner of a room, our noses will =
not=20
detect it in another corner of the room for several minutes unless the =
air is=20
vigorously stirred by a mechanical fan. The slow diffusion of gas =
molecules=20
which are moving very quickly occurs because the gas molecules travel =
only short=20
distances in straight lines before they are deflected in a new direction =
by=20
collision with other gas molecules.=20

The distance any single molecule travels between collisions will vary =
from=20
very short to very long distances, but the average distance that a =
molecule=20
travels between collisions in a gas can be calculated. This distance is =
called=20
the mean free path l of the gas molecules. If =
the=20
root-mean-square velocity is divided by the mean free path of the gas =
molecules,=20
the result will be the number of collisions one molecule undergoes per =
second.=20
This number is called the collision frequency=20
Z1 of the gas molecules.=20

The postulates of the kinetic-molecular theory of gases permit the=20
calculation of the mean free path of gas molecules. The gas molecules =
are=20
visualized as small hard spheres. A sphere of diameter d sweeps =
through a=20
cylinder of cross-sectional area (pi)d2 and length=20
v(rms) each second, colliding with all molecules in the cylinder, =
as=20
shown in the Figure below.=20


Figure is not available.=20


The radius of the end of the cylinder is d because two molecules =
will=20
collide if their diameters overlap at all. This description of =
collisions with=20
stationary gas molecules is not quite accurate, however, because the gas =

molecules are all moving relative to each other. Those relative =
velocities range=20
between zero for two molecules moving in the same direction and =
2v(rms)=20
for a head-on collision. The average relative velocity is that of a =
collision at=20
right angles, which is v(rms) times the square root of 2. The =
total=20
number of collisions per second per unit volume, Z1, =
is=20

Z1 =3D (pi)d2v(rms)(the =
square root=20
of)2=20

This total number of collisions must now be divided by the number of=20
molecules which are present per unit volume. The number of gas molecules =
present=20
per unit volume is found by rearrangement of the ideal gas law to=20
n/V =3D p/RT and use of Avogadro's number, =
n =3D=20
N/NA; thus N/V =3D=20
pNA/RT. This gives the mean free path of the =
gas=20
molecules, l, as=20

(v(rms)/Z1)/(N/V) =3D l =
=3D=20
RT/(pi)d2pNA(the square root =
of)2=20

According to this expression, the mean free path of the molecules =
should get=20
longer as the temperature increases; as the pressure decreases; and as =
the size=20
of the molecules decreases.=20


Example. Let us calculate the length of the mean free path of oxygen =
molecules=20
at room temperature, 25oC, taking the molecular diameter of =
an oxygen=20
molecule as 370 pm. Using the formula for mean free path given above and =
the=20
value of the root-mean-square velocity vrms calculated in the previous =
example,=20

l =3D (8.3143 kg m2/s2K mol)(298.15 =
K)/3.14159(370=20
x 10-12 m)2(101325 kg/m s2) (6.0225 x=20
10+23 mol-1)((the square root of)2),=20

so l =3D 6.7 x 10-8 m =3D 67 nm. The utility of SI =
units and of=20
the quantity calculus in this example should be obvious.=20


The apparently slow diffusion of gas molecules takes place =
because the=20
molecules travel only a very short distance before colliding. =
At room=20
temperature and atmospheric pressure, oxygen molecules travel only (6.7 =
x=20
10-8 m)/(370 x 10-12 m) =3D 180 molecular =
diameters between=20
collisions. The same thing can be pointed out using the collision =
frequency for=20
a single molecule Z1, which is the root-mean-square =
velocity=20
divided by the mean free path:=20

Z1 =3D =
(pi)d2pNA(the=20
square root of)2/RT=20

For oxygen at room temperature, each gas molecule collides with =
another every=20
0.13 nanoseconds (one nanosecond is 1.0 x 10-9 s), since the=20
collision frequency is 7.2 x 109 collisions per second per molecule.=20

For an ideal gas, the number of molecules per unit volume is given =
using=20
pV =3D nRT and n =3D N/NA =
as=20

N/V =3D NAp/RT=20

which for oxygen at 25oC would be (6.0225 x =
10+23=20
mol-1)(101325 kg/m s2)/(8.3143 kg=20
m2/s2 K mol)(298.15 K) or 2.46 x 10+25=20
molecules/m3. The number of collisions between =
two=20
molecules in a volume, Z11, would then be the product =
of the=20
number of collisions each molecule makes times the number of molecules =
there=20
are, Z1N/V, except that this would count =
each=20
collision twice (since two molecules are involved in each one =
collision). The=20
correct equation must be=20

Z11 =3D=20
(pi)d2p2NA2v(rms)=20
(the square root of)2/2R2T2=20

If the molecules present in the gas had different masses they would =
also have=20
different speeds, so an average value of v(rms) would be using a =
weighted=20
average of the molar masses; the partial pressures of the different =
gases in the=20
mixture would also be required. Although such calculations involve no =
new=20
principles, they are beyond our scope. However, the number of collisions =
which=20
occur per second in gases and in liquids are extremely important in =
chemical=20
kinetics, so we shall return to this topic in other sections.=20

Graham's Law of Effusion and Diffusion
Root-mean-square =
velocities of=20
gas molecules are sometimes directly useful, but the comparison of =
velocities=20
explains the results of, and is useful in, studies of effusion of =
molecules=20
through a small hole in a container or diffusion of molecules through =
porous=20
barriers. The comparison between two gases is most conveniently =
expressed as:=20

v(rms)1/v(rms)2 =3D (the square =
root=20
of)(M2/M1) =3D (the square root=20
of)(d2/d1)=20

This equation gives the velocity ratio in terms of either the molar =
mass=20
ratio or the ratio of densities d. The ratio of root-mean-square=20
velocities is also the ratio of the rates of effusion, the process by =
which=20
gases escape from containers through small holes, and the ratio of the =
rates of=20
diffusion of gases.=20

This equation is called Graham's law of diffusion and=20
effusion because it was observed by Thomas Graham (1805-1869) =
well=20
before the kinetic-molecular theory of gases was developed. As an =
empirical law,=20
it simply stated that the rates of diffusion and of effusion of gases =
varied as=20
the square root of the densities of the gases. Graham's law is the basis =
of many=20
separations of gases. The most significant is the separation of the =
isotopes of=20
uranium as the gases 238UF6 and=20
235UF6. Fluorine has only one isotope, so the =
separation=20
on the basis of molar mass is really a separation on the basis of =
isotopic mass.=20



Example. The ratio of root-mean-square velocities of=20
238UF6 and 235UF6 can be =
calculated=20
as follows. The molar mass of 238UF6 is 348.0343 =
and the=20
molar mass of 238UF6 is 352.0412. The mass ratio =
is=20
1.011513 and the ratio of root-mean-square velocities is 1.00574. =
Although the=20
difference is small, many kilograms of 235U have been =
separated using=20
this difference in the gas-diffusion separation plant at Oak Ridge, =
Tennessee,=20
U. S. A. This plant prepared the uranium for the Manhattan Project of =
the Second=20
World War and produced the uranum used in the uranium atomic bomb =
dropped on=20
Japan in 1945.=20


[NEXT: Equations of State for Gases] 
[PREVIOUS: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas =
Laws:=20
Partial Pressure]=20




Copyright 1995 James A. Plambeck (Jim.Plambeck ualberta.ca). =
Updated=20
September 26, 1995.


------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C0814C.11944080--

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Subject: Re: Diffusion/Effusion of Gases
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:56:52 -0800
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Chemical Sciences: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws: =
Velocities of Molecules, Effusion, and Diffusion


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Figure is not available.=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Graham's Law of Effusion and Diffusion
Root-mean-square velocities of gas molecules are sometimes directly =
useful, but the comparison of velocities explains the results of, and is =
useful in, studies of effusion of molecules through a small hole in a =
container or diffusion of molecules through porous barriers. The =
comparison between two gases is most conveniently expressed as:=20
v(rms)1/v(rms)2 =3D (the square root of)(M2/M1) =3D (the square root =
of)(d2/d1)=20

This equation gives the velocity ratio in terms of either the molar mass =
ratio or the ratio of densities d. The ratio of root-mean-square =
velocities is also the ratio of the rates of effusion, the process by =
which gases escape from containers through small holes, and the ratio of =
the rates of diffusion of gases.=20

This equation is called Graham's law of diffusion and effusion because =
it was observed by Thomas Graham (1805-1869) well before the =
kinetic-molecular theory of gases was developed. As an empirical law, it =
simply stated that the rates of diffusion and of effusion of gases =
varied as the square root of the densities of the gases. Graham's law is =
the basis of many separations of gases. The most significant is the =
separation of the isotopes of uranium as the gases 238UF6 and 235UF6. =
Fluorine has only one isotope, so the separation on the basis of molar =
mass is really a separation on the basis of isotopic mass.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Example. The ratio of root-mean-square velocities of 238UF6 and 235UF6 =
can be calculated as follows. The molar mass of 238UF6 is 348.0343 and =
the molar mass of 238UF6 is 352.0412. The mass ratio is 1.011513 and the =
ratio of root-mean-square velocities is 1.00574. Although the difference =
is small, many kilograms of 235U have been separated using this =
difference in the gas-diffusion separation plant at Oak Ridge, =
Tennessee, U. S. A. This plant prepared the uranium for the Manhattan =
Project of the Second World War and produced the uranum used in the =
uranium atomic bomb dropped on Japan in 1945.=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
[NEXT: Equations of State for Gases]=20
[PREVIOUS: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas Laws: Partial =
Pressure]=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Copyright 1995 James A. Plambeck (Jim.Plambeck ualberta.ca). Updated =
September 26, 1995.

------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C0814E.20E53BA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Chemical Sciences: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains =
the Gas Laws: Velocities of Molecules, Effusion, and Diffusion







 


Figure is not available.=20




Graham's Law of Effusion and Diffusion
Root-mean-square =
velocities of=20
gas molecules are sometimes directly useful, but the comparison of =
velocities=20
explains the results of, and is useful in, studies of effusion of =
molecules=20
through a small hole in a container or diffusion of molecules through =
porous=20
barriers. The comparison between two gases is most conveniently =
expressed as:=20

v(rms)1/v(rms)2 =3D (the square =
root=20
of)(M2/M1) =3D (the square root=20
of)(d2/d1)=20

This equation gives the velocity ratio in terms of either the molar =
mass=20
ratio or the ratio of densities d. The ratio of root-mean-square=20
velocities is also the ratio of the rates of effusion, the process by =
which=20
gases escape from containers through small holes, and the ratio of the =
rates of=20
diffusion of gases.=20

This equation is called Graham's law of diffusion and=20
effusion because it was observed by Thomas Graham (1805-1869) =
well=20
before the kinetic-molecular theory of gases was developed. As an =
empirical law,=20
it simply stated that the rates of diffusion and of effusion of gases =
varied as=20
the square root of the densities of the gases. Graham's law is the basis =
of many=20
separations of gases. The most significant is the separation of the =
isotopes of=20
uranium as the gases 238UF6 and=20
235UF6. Fluorine has only one isotope, so the =
separation=20
on the basis of molar mass is really a separation on the basis of =
isotopic mass.=20



Example. The ratio of root-mean-square velocities of=20
238UF6 and 235UF6 can be =
calculated=20
as follows. The molar mass of 238UF6 is 348.0343 =
and the=20
molar mass of 238UF6 is 352.0412. The mass ratio =
is=20
1.011513 and the ratio of root-mean-square velocities is 1.00574. =
Although the=20
difference is small, many kilograms of 235U have been =
separated using=20
this difference in the gas-diffusion separation plant at Oak Ridge, =
Tennessee,=20
U. S. A. This plant prepared the uranium for the Manhattan Project of =
the Second=20
World War and produced the uranum used in the uranium atomic bomb =
dropped on=20
Japan in 1945.=20


[NEXT: Equations of State for Gases] 
[PREVIOUS: Kinetic-Molecular Theory Explains the Gas =
Laws:=20
Partial Pressure]=20




Copyright 1995 James A. Plambeck (Jim.Plambeck ualberta.ca). =
Updated=20
September 26, 1995.


------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C0814E.20E53BA0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 12:45:54 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:30:26 +0200
From: hamdi ucar 
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Wow! Now it is possible to make transparent digital clocks for refrigerators doors.

Please forgive me for this. :)

hamdi



"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
> 
> -
> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns227439
> 
> A clear winner
> Magnets and microchips combine in a transparent supermaterial
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 13:08:50 2001
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Scott,

Would putting a small (known?) quantity of He4 i.e., the
Baratron Pressure gauge, in the cell give
you a reference as to the amount of H2 going through 
the bleed valve?

D2 (mass 4) might create some problems in using Grahams Law
of Effusion.

Regards,      Frederick




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 13:20:57 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:05:54 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: gas solubility?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> My experience with polyethylene film is that it is NOT a good long term
> container for H2 unless it is aluminized.

This may be true - as I was thinking of a different issue, i.e. HTO (hydrogen
tritium oxide) containment. Just to make sure I pulled out an old file entitled
"Tritium Protective Clothing" from ORNL, available from NTIS.

FWIW, the dry permeability of 5 mil Polyethylene film for HTO is 2.3x10-e12
which is an order of magnitude better than the next best cheap polymer, pvc,
both of which are considered very good and both materials are approved for dry
tritium environments. Aluminized mylar is somewhat better but about 50 times
more costly. I believe it has been used for H2 containment in high altitude
balloons, despite its cost, because it is very strong. The study doesn't
compare resin films for pure H2 containment, so I guess the assumption is that
all tritium generated in these facilities will be immediately oxidized into HTO
by the systems in place.

A curious and related fact is that neoprene is used for gloves in tritium
facilities as H2O permeability is somewhat high for PE, so when PE is saturated
with H2O it passes far more HTO. Go figure. Intermolecular spacing could be a
key, I suppose, and the difference between H and T in would seem to be governed
by Graham's law of diffusion and effusion that Fred mentions up to a point -
but polymers are special because of van der waal forces.

The small mass and small size (assumption) of hydrinos probably means they go
though most solid materials like a sieve, and might be contained by plastic
films only if there was some interaction of hydrino with the van der waal
forces in a polymer chain. There is no clear answer, except possibly from BLP.


> If an orbitsphere has an apparent charge, then perhaps hyrdinos could be
> collected or concentrated using high voltage DC electrodes in the vicinity.
> However, if hydrino has an apparent charge, then I would expect it to bond
> to most anything and have a very low diffusion rate through glass, plastic,
> etc. One of the problems is that Mills could be right about their existence
> and wrong in his theory, so there is no telling exactly what is what until
> things are made clear experimentally.

Yes, since Mills has been collecting hydrinos for use in chemical reactions,
I'm sure he has figured out the best way to do it.

That's  why I suspect the technique is confidential info which he is unlikely
to share, particularly since the PTO is not giving him much satisfaction.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 14:43:24 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 16:28:58 -0600
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At 01:23 PM 1/18/01 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Scott,
>
>Would putting a small (known?) quantity of He4 i.e., the
>Baratron Pressure gauge, in the cell give
>you a reference as to the amount of H2 going through
>the bleed valve?

That's an interesting idea.   I've been wishing I had two ports on the cell 
anyway so I could flush out all the air (that the cell starts out full of) 
with some inert gas that wouldn't interfere with my O2 measurements.  As it 
is, I've just had to wait a long time...and use the N2 signal in the cell 
gas as an indicator of how much air remained...



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 14:44:17 2001
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:41:34 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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	Dear Scott,

	If ou are filling your experiment with H and O for the same ratios
as water... ie, 2 H and 1 O ... why not simply electrolyze water?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 14:46:43 2001
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From: John Schnurer 
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Subject: AGGGG   aaaaagggg ...... FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic
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	Dear Scott....and all,

	My point is one shouls not bring any radioactive materials into
your life if you can help it.

	I have seen many posts over the years where someone writes about
this that or the other radioactive compound or element being used in some
given application...

	Then you see a rash of posts with questions such as
	"where can I get a gram of Radium Chloride"

	I rarely see any ANY type of warning about woring with high
voltage, explosive gasses, poisonous chemical, caustic chemicals... and
the list goes on.  The real bugger about radioactive materials is that you
can REALLY hurt you, your fiends, neighbors and loved ones.... and not
know it untill too late.

	Until you have personally experienced the deep fear and horror of
thinking.. "Oh  man ... what happened to the 'xxx' (you fill in the
dangerous compound, element or radioactive material) ???  you will not
know
what I am writing about

	Err on the side of caution.


On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote:

> At 02:52 AM 1/18/01 -0500, John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 
> >         There is no safe level of ingested radioactive material.
> >
> >         Any is too much
> 
> 
> Better start a strict diet of no food, John.  ALL our foods contain very 
> low levels of naturally occurring radioisotopes (e.g. K-40).
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 14:52:38 2001
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Message-ID: <000901c0819f$da911be0$1b1ad7d2 ibmbn145hv>
From: "Greg Watson" 
To: "Energy FreeNrg" 
Cc: "Energy Vortex" 
Subject: SMOT refunds
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:11:52 +1030
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Hi All,

While all the SMOT talk is interesting, I have NO real long term interest in going there.
I came back on Vortex & FreeNrg to put names to the amounts & dates on my bank statements
so I can refund your money.

Some of you think the SMOT was OU, some of you don't & some are not sure.  I really think
too much water has gone under the bridge to reopen this issue and as I said above, it is
not my intention to do so.

I do though ask you to help me to put my SMOT purchasers list together again and if you
sent me money for a SMOT kit to please provide by private email the amount & date you sent
the money.  The sooner I get my list completed, the sooner you will get your money back.

========================
Good Health & Long Life,
 Greg Watson,
  http://www.ozemail.com.au/~gowatson
   gowatson asiaonline.net.au

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 14:55:10 2001
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Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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Scott Little wrote:

> I just (finally) noticed that my gas ratio measurement strategy is
> flawed.  I'm filling a chamber with the correct gas mixture (determined by
> pressure ratios, measured with a good capacitance manometer)...but then I
> open a fine needle valve to admit that mixture into the RGA.
>
> The problem is that H2 flows through that valve more readily than does
> O2.  Thus the valve itself distorts the ratio by enhancing the H2 over the
> O2.   After about half the gas sample has flowed through the valve, the
> reported H:O ratio has DOUBLED!  The reason I didn't notice this before is
> that it takes about 45 minutes for half of the sample to flow thru the
> valve and usually I've got all the readings taken and recorded in about 5
> minutes.  However, it still means that the valve is distorting the true H:O
> ratio.
>
> However, to first order, I've already built this effect into my custom
> calibration of the RGA system.  That's because I use exactly the same
> chamber and valve system for the calibration gases.  So my previous claims
> that the H:O ratio coming from the cell is lower than 2:1 still stand...but
> I that doesn't make me like this situation very much.
>
> Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a
> way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the
> high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things
> like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the
> present effect.

The usual method is to take a sample of gas in a small container and allow
this to leak into the RGA until no more gas remains  Meanwhile, record the
signals as a function of time.  The area under the respective curves will
represent the amount of gas, independent of diffusion.

Ed Storms

>
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 15:27:41 2001
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From: John Schnurer 
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Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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	One method of mixing gases is to trap the required amount in
graduate cylinder which is upside down in water.... then you "pour" the
gas up into into the reaction container .....
	Prior to measuring and-or mixing the gases the container are all
full of water and upside down .... all of the gases are filled upward!

	This works only if you have a situation wherein water does not
hurt stuff.
			

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Edmund Storms wrote:

> 
> 
> Scott Little wrote:
> 
> > I just (finally) noticed that my gas ratio measurement strategy is
> > flawed.  I'm filling a chamber with the correct gas mixture (determined by
> > pressure ratios, measured with a good capacitance manometer)...but then I
> > open a fine needle valve to admit that mixture into the RGA.
> >
> > The problem is that H2 flows through that valve more readily than does
> > O2.  Thus the valve itself distorts the ratio by enhancing the H2 over the
> > O2.   After about half the gas sample has flowed through the valve, the
> > reported H:O ratio has DOUBLED!  The reason I didn't notice this before is
> > that it takes about 45 minutes for half of the sample to flow thru the
> > valve and usually I've got all the readings taken and recorded in about 5
> > minutes.  However, it still means that the valve is distorting the true H:O
> > ratio.
> >
> > However, to first order, I've already built this effect into my custom
> > calibration of the RGA system.  That's because I use exactly the same
> > chamber and valve system for the calibration gases.  So my previous claims
> > that the H:O ratio coming from the cell is lower than 2:1 still stand...but
> > I that doesn't make me like this situation very much.
> >
> > Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a
> > way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the
> > high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things
> > like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the
> > present effect.
> 
> The usual method is to take a sample of gas in a small container and allow
> this to leak into the RGA until no more gas remains  Meanwhile, record the
> signals as a function of time.  The area under the respective curves will
> represent the amount of gas, independent of diffusion.
> 
> Ed Storms
> 
> >
> >
> > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 15:50:38 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:40:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Scott Little's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:56:39 -0600:

>I just (finally) noticed that my gas ratio measurement strategy is 
>flawed.  I'm filling a chamber with the correct gas mixture (determined by 
>pressure ratios, measured with a good capacitance manometer)...but then I 
>open a fine needle valve to admit that mixture into the RGA.
>
>The problem is that H2 flows through that valve more readily than does 
>O2.  Thus the valve itself distorts the ratio by enhancing the H2 over the 
>O2.   
Hi Scott,

If the valve is enhancing the H2 over the O2, and the H2 is already being
reported as too low (i.e. you should be getting at least 2 H2 for each O2,
and you are only getting ~1.3), then doesn't this mean that the real H2:O2
ratio is even further out of whack than you initially thought?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 17:22:41 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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At 10:40 AM 1/19/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>If the valve is enhancing the H2 over the O2, and the H2 is already being
>reported as too low (i.e. you should be getting at least 2 H2 for each O2,
>and you are only getting ~1.3), then doesn't this mean that the real H2:O2
>ratio is even further out of whack than you initially thought?


Gee, if, ignoring the valves for a moment, there are small aperture leaks
in the system (I assume the only kind that CAN be there) then the hydrogen
will escape preferentially, giving the higher O2 level at the valve, which
was observed.  However, since the concentration of H2 increases with run
time, also observed, then that points more toward consumption of a resource
in the cell to make a compound.  There could be a combination of factors at
work.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 17:57:33 2001
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Subject: Re: Mallove/Hoagland radio program
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>Gene Mallove will appear with Richard Hoagland on "Coast-to-Coast" radio
>with Mike Siegal, Friday 1/19/2001 from 1:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. (eastern
>time).
>
>It will be with a moderated (not moderate!) conversation about various
>scientific heresies -- cold fusion, other new energy sources, Mars
>imagry,  even IT/Ginger.

aha, the Masonic conspiracy to suppress cold fusion will be revealed!

seriously, I just finished reading "Sex and Rockets" by John Carter,
a biography of Jack Parsons, one of the founding fathers of NASA's
Jet Propulsion Laboratory.  By day, Parsons was one of the early
pioneers of rocketry. He worked out a lot of theory behind solid
fuel propulsion and was instrumental in developing the JATO (jet
assisted take off) boosters used during WWII.  By night, he was a
disciple of Aleister Crowley and ran the SoCal branch of Crowley's
Ordus Templis Orientis (Order of the Eastern Temple), sort of a
pre-hippie commune/secret society that practiced free-love and sex magick.

Parsons was also involved with the LA science fiction writers,
counting Robert Heinlein and Jack Williamson among his friends.
L. Ron Hubbard even shows up, as a member of the O.T.O who steals
Parsons' girl friend and a big chunk of his change.  Parsons died
at the age of 37, killed in a mysterious explosion in his garage/laboratory.

I used to think that Hoagland's talk of dark forces and secret
societies inside of NASA was a bunch of BS, but after reading this book,
I have to wonder if maybe there is some basis to his charges...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 18:46:53 2001
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Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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At 03:44 PM 1/18/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>The usual method is to take a sample of gas in a small container and allow
>this to leak into the RGA until no more gas remains  Meanwhile, record the
>signals as a function of time.  The area under the respective curves will
>represent the amount of gas, independent of diffusion.

Thanks....that sounds rigorous...and maybe my RGA software can actually do 
that for me.  I'll check.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 18:48:56 2001
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At 12:38 PM 1/18/01 -0500, you wrote:
>JN has always seemed to be open to any comments both positive and
>negative concerning his experiments....a lot more then some I have
>run across.......am sure he would like to hear from you....


He could show this appreciation by actually replying...

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 18:49:20 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Exploring... ZOUNDS!
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:45:34 +1100
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:36:27 -0900:
[snip]
>The frequency in Hz, nu, is given by:
>
>  nu = (1/(2 Pi))(K/M)^(1/2)
>
>This is of course no QM calculation, just a rule of thumb kind of thing,
>but is not too far off.
[snip]
Thanks, I did something similar with 1 positive charge suspended midway
between two others, and came up with a frequency about 10 times higher.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 20:26:04 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:20:18 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:14:50 -0800:
[snip]
Robin:
>My initial impression was that the field and frequency might match the NMR
>frequency for one of the isotopes...However a vibrational frequency match, rather 
>than a rotational match, might make more sense.
Jones:
>Could there be a derivative possibility to consider: 
>A higher level tertiary "sloshing," as WB suggests,  being induced between the vibrational and the rotational frequencies? 
>
>OTOH, the vibrational frequency appears so far removed from the NMR frequency, as a general rule, that this kind of interaction would seem to be unlikely. 
Robin:
Actually this may not be so impossible. Alternating magnetic attraction and
repulsion between adjacent nuclei as the spin of one of them flips, could
allow transfer of the rotational energy to the vibrational mode.
However for this to work, adjacent nuclei need to at least have different
NMR frequencies. In which case it may even be possible to drive the system
at the difference frequency between the NMR frequencies of the two nuclei.
One could end up with a system driven at just a few MHz, where the energy is
coupled into the vibrational modes at many THz. This would work best if the
difference frequency was a subharmonic of the vibrational frequency of one
of the nuclei.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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In reply to  Tz'Akh's message of Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:53:15 -0500:
[snip]
>if there's interested heads, i'll furnish some info.
[snip]
Yes please.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 21:14:18 2001
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:16:03 -0600:
[snip]
>> How can you be sure of this?
>
>Because heat, helium and other nuclear products are produced under conditions
>that do not produce hydrinos, according to Mills.
[snip]
Ionisation energies for Li and Pd and Ti are as follows:

		Li		Pd		Ti
1st		5.3917		8.3369		6.8282
2nd		76.638		19.63		13.58
3rd		122.451		32.93		27.491

Pd's 3rd - Li's 1st = 27.53 which is 0.3 eV too high for an energy hole.
Li's 1st + Li's 2nd = 82.03 which is 0.43 eV too high.

IOW either could to some degree function as Mills catalysts.

Pd's 1st + 2nd = 27.97 which is about .8 eV too high - probably too big a
difference at near room temp. However at very high temps, this might
contribute.

I have a recollection of a combination of Pd and O also being a catalyst
from one of Mills' early papers, but can't remember which one.

I have shown in a previous post how Ni can also be a Mills catalyst
internally.

One of Ti's oxidation states is Ti++. Ti's 3rd ionisation energy is 0.29 eV
too high, and could thus also function as a catalyst. Ti could also function
as a catalyst internally, similar to Ni. (i.e. by bringing it into
electrical contact with a physically larger piece of metal with a higher
work function).

I have previously shown how Ag can function as a catalyst.

I believe some of the proton conductors used in the high temp experiments
contained Sr didn't they?

Now which CF experiment did you have in mind, where no Mills catalysts could
have been present?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 18 23:50:16 2001
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 <06B639CC0D245141991C47B031A7756B052CC6 hersilia.dvdempire.lan>
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:48:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: RE: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!! (read: ORMUS)
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>there's been some real interesting research that's come out of working with
>'ORME' water of late.  'ORME' may actually be a misnomer, it's not yet been
>if there's interested heads, i'll furnish some info.
>-Tz'Akh
As i have posted previously, I have an interest. My questions are as follows:

how do you go from high spin state to regular state
high spin angle compaired to what
I have some URL's on ORMES, please post your, and If they are 
different from mine, I'll share what I have.


Thomas Malloy

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Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 19/01/01 03:48:25 Paris, Madrid, cjford1 yahoo.co=
m a=20
=E9crit :



> At 12:38 PM 1/18/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >JN has always seemed to be open to any comments both positive and
> >negative concerning his experiments....a lot more then some I have
> >run across.......am sure he would like to hear from you....
>=20
>=20


Of course.....

In the ARDA project, the Biefeld-Brown effect is used only for air drag=20
reduction purpose and it is used only in an atmospherical environment. I=20
remind you that the name ARDA is for "Advanced Reduced Drag Aircraft" and no=
t=20
for a spacecraft...

Air Drag Reduction effect with the help of High Voltages is been fully teste=
d=20
by Northrop coporation since 1968.

You will find some interesting technical reports in these papers :

- The AIAA 6th Aerospace Sciences Meeting " Electroaerodynamics in supersoni=
c=20
flow" by M.S.Cahn and G.M.Andrew from Northrop Coporation - N=B068-24 Januar=
y=20
22-24, 1968

- The AIAA 3rd Flui and Plasma Dynamics conference" Recent experiments in=20
supersonic regime with electrostatic charges"  by M.S.Cahn and G.M.Andrew=20
from Northrop Coporation - N=B070-759 June 29-July, 1970

The encapsuled wire placed on the leading edge of my ARDA wing is a study of=
=20
a possible design for a composite wing which use the high K of a dielectric=20
such as barium titanate and also for a better aerodynamical shape.=20
This kind of system used with a Field Effect Propulsion engine ( see the Dr=20
Barret- Dr Froning works and the researches done by Unitel ) or with an=20
advanced  MHD engine may allow the craft to fly at hypersonic speed ( > Mach=
=20
20 ). This is done with a MPCE "Magneto-Plasma-Chemical-Engine" used in the=20
Hypersonic Flight Vehicle concept. In the deep space the use of Field=20
Propulsion engines ( which use ZPF ) remains the best way for the space=20
travel...

There are some other designs which use a short spike antenna ( like a big=20
"pitot" tube ) placed on the noise of the aicraft. For instance in the DEAS=20
Project ( Directed Energy Air Strike ) from the Reensselaer Polytechnic=20
Institute, this is used for the shock wave control by using the Biefeld Brow=
n=20
effect at High Voltage. Very high voltage set on this spike is able to creat=
e=20
a kind of ES shield and thus this kill the shock wave effect. This has been=20
fully tested at the Reensselaer Polytechnic Institute at about Mach 20 (DEAS=
=20
project) with the professor Leik Myrabo....

You will find some additional infos about the Reensselaer tests at :
http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Facilities/hypersonic_shock_tunnel.h=
tml

I suggest you to read these interesting papers :
AIAA 96-3143 "Experimental Pressure Survey of the Hypersonic Air Spike Inlet=
=20
at Mach 10," Diaz, E., Toro, P.G.P, Myrabo, L.N., Nagamatsu, H.T., and=20
Messitt, D.G., June, 1996.  187kB Adobe Acrobat=20
http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA96-3143.pdf<=
/A>

AIAA 97-0795 "Experimental Investigation of Hypersonic "Directed-Energy Air=20
Spike" Inlet at Mach 10 - 20," Toro, P.G.P, Myrabo, L.N., and Nagamatsu,=20
H.T., January, 1997.=20
 864kB Adobe Acrobat=20
http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA97-0795.pdf<=
/A>

AIAA 98-0991 "Pressure Investigation of the Hypersonic "Directed-Energy Air=20
Spike" Inlet at Mach Number 10 With Arc Power Up to 70 kW", Toro, P.G.P,=20
Myrabo, L.N., Nagamatsu, H.T., January, 1998.=20
 1.4MB Adobe Acrobat
http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA98-0991.pdf<=
/A>  =20

Some advanced hypersonic jets use microwaves for generating a kind of plasma=
=20
skin in front of the noise like the russian hypersonic jet named "AJAX"...Bu=
t=20
this is another story...

I hope that you will find my answer interesting.

Best Regards,
Jean-Louis Naudin (France)
Email: JNaudin509@aol.com
Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/




--part1_9b.faf537a.27998c2d_boundary
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Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 19/01/01 03:48:25 Paris, Madrid, cjford1 yahoo.c=
om a=20

=E9crit :







At 12:38 PM 1/18/01 -0500,=20=
you wrote:

>JN has always seemed to be open to any comments both positive and

>negative concerning his experiments....a lot more then some I have

>run across...<grin>....am sure he would like to hear from you.=
...









Of course.....



In the ARDA project, the Biefeld-Brown effect is used only for air drag=20

reduction purpose and it is used only in an atmospherical environment. I=
=20

remind you that the name ARDA is for "Advanced Reduced Drag Aircraft" an=
d not=20

for a spacecraft...



Air Drag Reduction effect with the help of High Voltages is been fully t=
ested=20

by Northrop coporation since 1968.



You will find some interesting technical reports in these papers :



- The AIAA 6th Aerospace Sciences Meeting " Electroaerodynamics in super=
sonic=20

flow" by M.S.Cahn and G.M.Andrew from Northrop Coporation - N=B068-24 Ja=
nuary=20

22-24, 1968



- The AIAA 3rd Flui and Plasma Dynamics conference" Recent experiments i=
n=20

supersonic regime with electrostatic charges"  by M.S.Cahn and G.M.=
Andrew=20

from Northrop Coporation - N=B070-759 June 29-July, 1970



The encapsuled wire placed on the leading edge of my ARDA wing is a stud=
y of=20

a possible design for a composite wing which use the high K of a dielect=
ric=20

such as barium titanate and also for a better aerodynamical shape.=20

This kind of system used with a Field Effect Propulsion engine ( see the=
 Dr=20

Barret- Dr Froning works and the researches done by Unitel ) or with an=20

advanced  MHD engine may allow the craft to fly at hypersonic speed=
 ( > Mach=20

20 ). This is done with a MPCE "Magneto-Plasma-Chemical-Engine" used in=20=
the=20

Hypersonic Flight Vehicle concept. In the deep space the use of Field=20

Propulsion engines ( which use ZPF ) remains the best way for the space=20

travel...



There are some other designs which use a short spike antenna ( like a bi=
g=20

"pitot" tube ) placed on the noise of the aicraft. For instance in the D=
EAS=20

Project ( Directed Energy Air Strike ) from the Reensselaer Polytechnic=20

Institute, this is used for the shock wave control by using the Biefeld=20=
Brown=20

effect at High Voltage. Very high voltage set on this spike is able to c=
reate=20

a kind of ES shield and thus this kill the shock wave effect. This has b=
een=20

fully tested at the Reensselaer Polytechnic Institute at about Mach 20 (=
DEAS=20

project) with the professor Leik Myrabo....



You will find some additional infos about the Reensselaer tests at :

http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Facilities/hypersonic_shock_tunn=
el.html



I suggest you to read these interesting papers :

AIAA 96-3143 "Experimental Pressure Survey of the Hypersonic Air=20=
Spike Inlet=20

at Mach 10," Diaz, E., Toro, P.G.P, Myrabo, L.N., Nagamatsu, H.T., and=20

Messitt, D.G., June, 1996.  187kB Adobe Acrobat=20

http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA96-3143.=
pdf



AIAA 97-0795 "Experimental Investigation of Hypersonic "Directed-=
Energy Air=20

Spike" Inlet at Mach 10 - 20," Toro, P.G.P, Myrabo, L.N., and Nagamatsu,=
=20

H.T., January, 1997.=20

 864kB Adobe Acrobat=20

http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA97-0795.=
pdf



AIAA 98-0991 "Pressure Investigation of the Hypersonic "Directed-=
Energy Air=20

Spike" Inlet at Mach Number 10 With Arc Power Up to 70 kW", Toro, P.G.P,=
=20

Myrabo, L.N., Nagamatsu, H.T., January, 1998.=20

 1.4MB Adobe Acrobat

http://lightcraft.meche.rpi.edu/Research/publications/AIAA98-0991.=
pdf  =20



Some advanced hypersonic jets use microwaves for generating a kind of pl=
asma=20

skin in front of the noise like the russian hypersonic jet named "AJAX".=
..But=20

this is another story...



I hope that you will find my answer interesting.



Best Regards,

Jean-Louis Naudin (France)

Email: JNaudin509@aol.com

Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/







--part1_9b.faf537a.27998c2d_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 05:23:23 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Superconducting Magnetic Energy Storage (SMES)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 06:19:42 -0800
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An Item that Gene Mallove and R Hoagland didn't cover on
their "Coast to Coast" interview this morning.

 http://www-igte.tu-graz.ac.at/team/teamdesc.htm

With High Temperature Superconductors at LN2 Temperatures
(77.3 K) and a Stirling engine.... 

IT-Ginger too?

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 06:20:42 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Auto-Ionization of Water or Light Leptons?
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:12:38 -0800
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The so-called Auto-Ionization or Ion Product Constant
of water could be 27.2 eV Negative Light Leptons (LLs-) 
produced by 54.4 eV EUV solar photons in the upper
atmosphere attached to the water molecules.

The lack of affinity for the 27.2 eV LL+ by O2 or H2O
molecules show cause them to remain in the upper atmosphere,
and may be the cause of the "Fair Weather Field".

With the 15+ eV required to ionize the water molecule,
(or liquid ammonia, NH3) auto-ionization seems highly unlikely.

OTOH, the negative charge of the negative LLs in liquid water
could give the impression of auto-ionization, and explain the
effects so prevalent in the CF/OU and electrolysis experiments
found using water, especially when there are electrical
discharges set up in water that can produce protons (H+)
ions that can undergo "Hydrino" formation.

The water agitation and Sonoluminescence effects also 
tend to bear this out.

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 07:07:26 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:59:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
In-Reply-To: 
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At 05:41 PM 1/18/01 -0500, John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Scott,
>
>         If ou are filling your experiment with H and O for the same ratios
>as water... ie, 2 H and 1 O ... why not simply electrolyze water?

That's what I'm doing.  I'm trying to measure the H:O ratio to see if 
anything  weird is going on in the electrolysis cell.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 07:07:49 2001
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
In-Reply-To: <2fve6tstjnbg592tpfn7bmeopq96caabfr 4ax.com>
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At 10:40 AM 1/19/01 +1100, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>If the valve is enhancing the H2 over the O2, and the H2 is already being
>reported as too low (i.e. you should be getting at least 2 H2 for each O2,
>and you are only getting ~1.3), then doesn't this mean that the real H2:O2
>ratio is even further out of whack than you initially thought?

Not really....because "exactly" the same enhancement is going on when I run 
my known gas mixtures for calibration as when I run the unknown gas from 
the cell.  The only concern is the "exactly" part....



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 07:24:42 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:18:50 -0600
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From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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At 04:19 PM 1/18/01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>Gee, if, ignoring the valves for a moment, there are small aperture leaks
>in the system (I assume the only kind that CAN be there) then the hydrogen
>will escape preferentially, giving the higher O2 level at the valve, which
>was observed.

Man, if there are small apertures in this system, they are SMALL!  For the 
second time last night I went home with the exhaust valves closed on the 
gas volume measurement system.  For the second time, I found the syringe 
plunger sitting on the table this morning...popped out of the syringe by 
the pressure buildup.  Somehow the little 15 torr full-scale pressure 
sensor I'm using has survived this certain overpressure both times.

Anyway, that's just an embarrassing anecdote.  More importantly, I've used 
nothing but O-ring seals and other known-to-be-gas-tight seals in the 
design of this gas plumbing system.  Further, every part of the system that 
I could evacuate (does not include the actual cell and the initial vinyl 
gas plumbing) I did so and used a helium leak detector to ensure that no 
leaks were present.

BTW, the new gas flowrate measurement strategy involves a nice little 1 cc 
syringe which is graduated in 0.01 cc increments...and a VERY sensitive 
pressure transducer, which can resolve dp's of 0.1 mm of water:

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/gasflow2.jpg

To measure the gas flow rate, I close the exhaust valve and start a 
stopwatch.   The pressure begins to build immediately.  I then slowly 
withdraw the plunger of the syringe precisely out to 1 cc, thus increasing 
the cell+gas piping internal volume by 1 cc.  I then watch the pressure 
closely and stop the clock when it gets back up to zero (withdrawing the 
plunger makes it "go negative").


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 07:26:28 2001
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From: BriggsRO aol.com
Message-ID: <96.ee7c638.2799b600 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:23:44 EST
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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Hi Scott,

       A possible explanation of the missing hydrogen is that (over the 
periods of time you are working) some of it permeates through the glass and 
plastic and escapes from your system.  Many years ago, when I tried to 
operate television cameras in a helium atmosphere, I discovered that helium 
permeates glass very easily.  After a few days the vidicon tube would take 
enough helium to disable it.  Hydrogen would be even more prone to do this 
and of course, oxygen less so.  The time periods over which I experienced 
this were similar to those with which ou are working.

Bob Briggs

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Hi Scott,



       A possible explanation of the missing hydrogen is that (over the 

periods of time you are working) some of it permeates through the glass and 

plastic and escapes from your system.  Many years ago, when I tried to 

operate television cameras in a helium atmosphere, I discovered that helium 

permeates glass very easily.  After a few days the vidicon tube would take 

enough helium to disable it.  Hydrogen would be even more prone to do this 

and of course, oxygen less so.  The time periods over which I experienced 

this were similar to those with which ou are working.



Bob Briggs

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:16:03 -0600:
> [snip]
> >> How can you be sure of this?
> >
> >Because heat, helium and other nuclear products are produced under conditions
> >that do not produce hydrinos, according to Mills.
> [snip]
> Ionisation energies for Li and Pd and Ti are as follows:
>
>                 Li              Pd              Ti
> 1st             5.3917          8.3369          6.8282
> 2nd             76.638          19.63           13.58
> 3rd             122.451         32.93           27.491
>
> Pd's 3rd - Li's 1st = 27.53 which is 0.3 eV too high for an energy hole.
> Li's 1st + Li's 2nd = 82.03 which is 0.43 eV too high.
>
> IOW either could to some degree function as Mills catalysts.
>
> Pd's 1st + 2nd = 27.97 which is about .8 eV too high - probably too big a
> difference at near room temp. However at very high temps, this might
> contribute.
>
> I have a recollection of a combination of Pd and O also being a catalyst
> from one of Mills' early papers, but can't remember which one.
>
> I have shown in a previous post how Ni can also be a Mills catalyst
> internally.
>
> One of Ti's oxidation states is Ti++. Ti's 3rd ionisation energy is 0.29 eV
> too high, and could thus also function as a catalyst. Ti could also function
> as a catalyst internally, similar to Ni. (i.e. by bringing it into
> electrical contact with a physically larger piece of metal with a higher
> work function).
>
> I have previously shown how Ag can function as a catalyst.
>
> I believe some of the proton conductors used in the high temp experiments
> contained Sr didn't they?
>
> Now which CF experiment did you have in mind, where no Mills catalysts could
> have been present?

The Arata loading of Pd-black and the gas loading of Pd catalyst as shown by Case
do not involve any materials required by Mills.  In addition, the gas discharge
methods used by the Russians does not involve the necessary materials.  Granted
that the electrolytic method can contain a sufficient number of proposed
impurities to make a case.  Nevertheless, this seems to me to be a stretch -
trying to explain one unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. a fusion reaction) by another
unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. hydrinos).

Ed Storms

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 08:22:53 2001
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From: Jones Beene 
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> However for this to work, adjacent nuclei need to at least have different
> NMR frequencies. In which case it may even be possible to drive the system
> at the difference frequency between the NMR frequencies of the two nuclei.
> One could end up with a system driven at just a few MHz...


Then it shouldn't be too difficult to run some
experiments based upon the peculiar mix that was
mentioned in the patent... or any other mix, but
how on earth did they arrive at such a
combination?

BTW If you or anyone else happens to have easy
access to the proper chemical mix, I have a
small permanent magnet NMR rig ( with an
oscillator/ sweep generator that goes up to 4
gHz) which was built to try another idea that
didn't work ( I thought NMR might be employed to
produce a tiny amount of resonant neutron
stripping of D ). Problem is - it's a low power
setup - less than a watt of rf.

Jones

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At 10:23 AM 1/19/01 -0500, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:




     
A possible explanation of the missing hydrogen is that (over the 

periods of time you are working) some of it permeates through the glass
and 

plastic and escapes from your system.  Many years ago, when I tried
to 

operate television cameras in a helium atmosphere, I discovered that
helium 

permeates glass very easily.  After a few days the vidicon tube
would take 

enough helium to disable it.  Hydrogen would be even more prone to
do this 

and of course, oxygen less so.  The time periods over which I
experienced 

this were similar to those with which ou are working.





Thanks, Bob.  I'm going to have to do a test to see how fast H2 goes
through this vinyl tubing.  I'm assuming that's the weak point in my
system because everything else is either real thick or stainless
steel.



BTW, I don't think it's necessarily the case that H2 goes thru things
easier than He.  H2 is diatomic and He is monatomic.  That must
make it easier for He to get through certain kinds of materials.







Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.  
http://www.earthtech.org

Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA

512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org
(email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 09:36:44 2001
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Thought Vorts might find this interesting.
Ron

*** Forwarded message, originally written on 19-Jan-01 by:
*** NewsLetter DigiBio.com  *** 


Dear Colleagues and Friends, not forgetting Foes ;-)

Please find below the new issue of our long-awaited newsletter.

Truly yours,

Paris, January, 2001

J. Benveniste
D. Guillonnet

================================================================
                  DigiBio - NewsLetter 2001.1
                 -----------------------------
 Index:
  I - Introduction
 II - Research advances:
      a) Our latest protocol
      b) Automatization of the protocol
III - Communication
 IV - Acknowledgments
  V - Short term objectives

**The newsletters are available at 
================================================================


>> I - Introduction <<
----------------------

It is an appropriate time to inform you about recent developments in the DigiBio laboratory. As you will see, this last year of dedicated work has not been wasted since we have now mastered many elusive aspects of our research. As a result, our first obje
ctive, which is to "export" a simple technique to be replicated in external laboratories, appears to be within reach.


>> II - Research advances <<
----------------------------

  a) Our present protocol 
  -----------------------
Since approximately two years ago, we have at our disposal a new method for assessing the effect of biological signals. In short, coagulation of plasma is delayed when the latter is mixed with water pre-exposed to the signal of the anticoagulant heparin, 
recorded either at high concentration or at high dilution. The test is summarized as follows:

1) Calcium (Ca2+)-containing water is exposed to the computer recording of heparin (or of either the mixture heparin/protamine or water as controls). 
2) The exposed water-Ca2+ is mixed with decalcified plasma and distributed in 96-well plates.
3) Coagulation is assessed by spectrophotometry and expressed as Optical Density.

Note: besides using computer recording, the same effect is observed with the heparin signal presented as a high dilution of the original molecule (at least 10 log below the limit indicated by Avogadro's number) or even as homeopathic granules (Heparinum 3
0 CH )dissolved in water.
 
In the first experiments of January 99, coagulation was assessed by visual inspection of the tubes. The coagulation rate is now precisely measured by spectrophotometry. The experiment has been performed hundreds of times in our laboratory and has been rep
roduced 18 times out of 20 experiments in an external laboratory (six successful experiments out of seven performed blind). 


  b) Automatization of the method
  -------------------------------
However, our attempts to replicate these data in four other laboratories yielded mixed results. We then realized the difficulty in "exporting" a method which is very far from conventional biology. Also, individual variations of the operator's performance 
and unexpected modifications to "improve" the method could explain these erratic results. We then decided to automatize this method in order to eliminate the distorting effects of human intervention. The automatic analyzer was operational early October 20
00. "Operational" means that the operator, after having centrifuged the thawed decalcified sheep plasma stored at -20°C, simply place it in a rack alongside with water-Ca2+ to be "informed" and set plastic tubes in another rack. After clicking on "start",
 data are displayed on the computer screen about 90 minutes later. Three experiments of four signals each can be conducted before a new human intervention, essentially to set up new empty tubes in the rack.

It took a few weeks more to built missing devices, tune up the machine and understand the conditions for it to function in a consistent manner. Since then, it has yielded positive results in about 90% of the experiments. 

As an example, from Nov 15 to Nov 24, 2000, we have identified blind 104 heparin from 104 control signals. Twelve heparin signals were negative, some failures being due to a faulty mechanical part of the machine and some to non-reactive plasmas.

A typical result is given at the webin the complete newsletter: 

We have built a second machine (thanks to two generous donators) which is now in an external laboratory where independent researchers will perform the experiment in the coming weeks. We can reasonably expect to bring one of the two machines (or, if we fin
d the funds, about $40,000, a third one) to a foreign laboratory, in the UK and in the USA. 


>> III - Communication <<
-------------------------
In order to lighten this mail, you will find the list of communication events at this page of our web site 


>> IV - Comments and acknowledgements <<
----------------------------------------
This story, which has taken nearly 15 years to unfold, exemplifies the fact that most if not all researchers, nowadays and in the past, were misguided to apply existing reasoning and methods to a completely new domain of research. Established processes ca
nnot, by definition, tackle the unforeseen traps and uncertainties to be expected in unexplored territories. More difficulties are most probably in front of us. This is why we expected (and still do expect) help instead of contempt from our colleagues.

We are all the more deeply grateful to our few yet dedicated staff, supporters and financial investors who have enabled us to carry on our work thus far. With their help and support, we have since the very beginning of this project placed a great deal of 
emphasis on carrying out our work under the highest standards of methodology and professionalism. Our final aim is to lay a solid scientific foundation for a technology which we feel could drastically change in very positive ways the rather broad areas of
 medication distribution and diagnostic services.

We take this opportunity to inform you that we are proceeding to a new increase of DigiBio capital in order to finance the next two years. Several investors already showed their will to participate in this round. (This is only an information and is not a 
proposal for investment.)


>> V - Short term objectives <<
-------------------------------
It remains that our present objective is to see our results replicated. Through the current phase of methodical replication of the technology and process by independent laboratories, we are confident that the veracity and consistency of our results will b
e sufficient to convince even the most adamant skeptics. Publication in a peer-reviewed journal should follow, ensuring acceptance of our results by the scientific and medical communities, or at the very least a willingness to remain open-minded about suc
h a significant advance.

We look forward to keeping you informed of our progress in this regard.



******************************************
* With our best wishes for the new year, *
* DigiBio team                           *
*****************************************

*** End of forwarded message ***

-- 

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In a message dated 1/19/01 9:17:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
little earthtech.org writes:


> .  I'm going to have to do a test to see how fast H2 goes through this vinyl 
> tubing.  I'm assuming that's the weak point in my system because everything 
> else is either real thick or stainless steel.
> 
> 

That is certainly the most likely location for losses.  We found with our 
deep ocean T.V. cameras that the thick glass and stainless steel housings 
were ok over long periods of time but we had to replace neoprene O rings with 
metal ones to make the housings helium proof.

Bob  

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In a message dated 1/19/01 9:17:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, 

little earthtech.org writes:





.  I'm going to have to do a test to see how fast H2 goes through this vinyl 

tubing.  I'm assuming that's the weak point in my system because everything 

else is either real thick or stainless steel.



Scott




That is certainly the most likely location for losses.  We found with our 

deep ocean T.V. cameras that the thick glass and stainless steel housings 

were ok over long periods of time but we had to replace neoprene O rings with 

metal ones to make the housings helium proof.



Bob  

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 10:07:08 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:09:10 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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Probably not endorsed by DEKA Research:

http://www.gingerproject.com/

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 10:23:21 2001
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From: Terry Blanton 
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You can now reach Kamen's web site since a lot of hoopla has died
down:

http://www.dekaresearch.com/

Also, they have started a egroup list (only one message to date):

http://www.egroups.com/promote/DEKANews

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 10:23:26 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:11:26 -0600
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Subject: HiFi: rigorous gas ratio
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Ed Storms et al,

I collected a pressure vs time plot for H2 and O2 this morning letting all 
of the gas in my sample chamber flow thru the needle valve and past the 
RGA.  The curves do show the expected appearance, for a 50/50 mix, H2 
pressure is about twice as high as O2 initially but it dies away much 
faster than the O2 does...so the area under the two curves should be pretty 
similar.

But I realized that this still is not a rigorous measure of the amount of 
gas in the sample chamber.  The reason is that the RGA is only monitoring 
the pressure of each species as it races from the outlet of the needle 
valve into the throat of the turbopump that keeps the total pressure down 
in the RGA's operating range of ~10^-5 torr.  The problem is that the 
pressure of each species is only loosely related to the mass flow rate of 
that species past the RGA.  Compounding the problem is the fact that the 
turbo's pumping efficiency varies considerably for different gases.

This realization led me to the ultimate rigorous method for performing gas 
analysis with an RGA:  Fill a small sample chamber with the gas to be 
analyzed.  Then open a valve wide into a much larger evacuated chamber 
(containing the RGA) so that the sample gas pressure drops into the RGA's 
working range.  Then let the RGA measure the static pressure of the various 
gas constituents in the large chamber.

The only problem with this concept is achieving a sufficiently clean and 
out-gassed chamber.  As things stand right now in my system, when I isolate 
the chamber containing the RGA, an incredibly rapid buildup of gas at mass 
44, 28, and 2 occurs....reaching 1E-5 torr (from 1E-8 torr) in 30 
seconds.  Since there is no corresponding peak at 32 that is 1/4 the size 
of the peak at 28, I think the 28 might be CO instead of N2....and it means 
I'm not looking at an air leak.  The 44 is probably CO2 and the 2 is surely 
H2.  Surprisingly, the H2O peak at 18, which I expected to be the biggest 
problem with an isolated chamber, is "left in the dust" by the rapid growth 
of these others peaks.

So this isn't working either right now.  Please let me know if you see a 
way out of this one.

Thanks.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 10:41:51 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Oh! Oh!...gas ratios
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EGAD! MICROSOFT STRIKES AGAIN!

At 10:31 AM 1/19/1, Scott Little wrote:
>
>At 10:23 AM 1/19/01 -0500, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>

>
size=2>     
>A possible explanation of the missing hydrogen is that (over the 

>periods of time you are working) some of it permeates through the glass
>and 

>plastic and escapes from your system.  Many years ago, when I tried
>to 

>operate television cameras in a helium atmosphere, I discovered that
>helium 

>permeates glass very easily.  After a few days the vidicon tube
>would take 

>enough helium to disable it.  Hydrogen would be even more prone to
>do this 

>and of course, oxygen less so.  The time periods over which I
>experienced 

>this were similar to those with which ou are working.
>


>

>Thanks, Bob.  I'm going to have to do a test to see how fast H2 goes
>through this vinyl tubing.  I'm assuming that's the weak point in my
>system because everything else is either real thick or stainless
>steel.

>

>BTW, I don't think it's necessarily the case that H2 goes thru things
>easier than He.  H2 is diatomic and He is monatomic.  That must
>make it easier for He to get through certain kinds of materials.

>

>

>

>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.  
>eudora="autourl">http://www.earthtech.href="http://www.earthtech.org/" eudora="autourl">org

>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA

>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org
>(email)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 10:50:13 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:44:50 -0600
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: AG affecting FM radio reception
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Richard Hoagland mentioned that he gave a speech at the UN, in which 
he mentioned that someone, , ( the name escapes me, but he worked on 
homopolar generaors )  demonstrated that his antigravity experiment 
affected the frequency that an FM radio receiver receives. The 
possible reasons for this are mind boggeling. Does anyone know 
anything about this?

Sincerely
Thomas

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 11:04:33 2001
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From: Terry Blanton 
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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> Richard Hoagland mentioned that he gave a speech at the UN, in which
> he mentioned that someone, , ( the name escapes me, but he worked on
> homopolar generaors )  demonstrated that his antigravity experiment
> affected the frequency that an FM radio receiver receives. The
> possible reasons for this are mind boggeling. Does anyone know
> anything about this?

Probably Bruce DePalma (movie producer Brian's bro) mort 1997:

http://depalma.pair.com/

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 12:20:52 2001
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At 09:45 AM 1/19/01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>EGAD! MICROSOFT STRIKES AGAIN!
>
>At 10:31 AM 1/19/1, Scott Little wrote:
> >
> >At 10:23 AM 1/19/01 -0500, BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

> >

> >
 >size=2>     



Bob started it by sending HTML formatted email to Vortex-L.  I'm using 
Eudora 5.0 which can go either way so, when I responded, it kept the HTML 
formatting.

Apparently Horace (and surely others) are NOT using email clients that can 
parse the HTML commands, so everybody please send plain ASCII messages to 
Vortex-L.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 12:24:19 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:57:24 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: AG affecting FM radio reception
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> Probably Bruce DePalma (movie producer Brian's bro) mort 1997:


Far out! I had no idea he was Brian's brother. 

If genetic predilection has any relevance
between brothers, this mini biography of Brian
may shed some light on Bruce's claims.

Brian De Palma is the son of a surgeon. He
studied physics and won top prize in regional
Science Fair in high school. Project was "An
Analog Computer to Solve Differential
Equations." Remember the computer nerd in
"Dressed to Kill."
  
He was educated at Sarah Lawrence College!

De Palma takes his most famous cinematic trait,
voyeurism, from a childhood scar - when his
parents split up after his mother's accusation
of infidelity, he spent days stalking his dad
with recording equipment.

Once touted as "the American Hitchcock," De
Palma remains one of the most
controversial filmmakers and his work is debated
by critics and scholars, some of whom see a
talented craftsman who has successfully
synthesized the styles of earlier directors,
some of whom believe him to be a manipulative
misogynist.

Finally, could this point to a true shared
trait: 
De Palma invented the teen horror genre in 1976
with "Carrie" (fm Stephen King's novel) which
contains both "genuine shocks and clever humor."

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 12:40:34 2001
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Scott Little wrote:

> Ed Storms et al,
>
> I collected a pressure vs time plot for H2 and O2 this morning letting all
> of the gas in my sample chamber flow thru the needle valve and past the
> RGA.  The curves do show the expected appearance, for a 50/50 mix, H2
> pressure is about twice as high as O2 initially but it dies away much
> faster than the O2 does...so the area under the two curves should be pretty
> similar.
>
> But I realized that this still is not a rigorous measure of the amount of
> gas in the sample chamber.  The reason is that the RGA is only monitoring
> the pressure of each species as it races from the outlet of the needle
> valve into the throat of the turbopump that keeps the total pressure down
> in the RGA's operating range of ~10^-5 torr.  The problem is that the
> pressure of each species is only loosely related to the mass flow rate of
> that species past the RGA.  Compounding the problem is the fact that the
> turbo's pumping efficiency varies considerably for different gases.

The pressure you measure is according to a gauge located some distance from
the active region of  the RGA.  This  pressure should be below 10-6 torr when
the RGA is being pumped while closed.  When gas is being analyzed, the
pressure in the active region should be at least a factor of 10 above the
ambient gas pressure.  If this is the case, the small background pressure will
have little effect on your measurement.

>
>
> This realization led me to the ultimate rigorous method for performing gas
> analysis with an RGA:  Fill a small sample chamber with the gas to be
> analyzed.  Then open a valve wide into a much larger evacuated chamber
> (containing the RGA) so that the sample gas pressure drops into the RGA's
> working range.  Then let the RGA measure the static pressure of the various
> gas constituents in the large chamber.

This will work as long as the gases are not preferentially absorbed on the
chamber walls.

>
>
> The only problem with this concept is achieving a sufficiently clean and
> out-gassed chamber.  As things stand right now in my system, when I isolate
> the chamber containing the RGA, an incredibly rapid buildup of gas at mass
> 44, 28, and 2 occurs....reaching 1E-5 torr (from 1E-8 torr) in 30
> seconds.  Since there is no corresponding peak at 32 that is 1/4 the size
> of the peak at 28, I think the 28 might be CO instead of N2....and it means
> I'm not looking at an air leak.  The 44 is probably CO2 and the 2 is surely
> H2.  Surprisingly, the H2O peak at 18, which I expected to be the biggest
> problem with an isolated chamber, is "left in the dust" by the rapid growth
> of these others peaks.

Apparently your RGA has been exposed to a significant pressure of CO2.  This
is being fragmented into CO+ plus O to give you the 28 peak.  I suggest you
bakeout the system at 300°C under high vacuum.   After this is done, you need
to flush the system with your gas before measurement so that the walls can
become saturated.

You can determine whether the gas composition is being affected by H2
absorption into the Ni by reversing the current.  This will cause the O2
pressure to drop because the O2 will react with H2 being released from the Ni,
which is now the anode. Also the flow rate will drop.  This reversal process
actually helps Ni load more H2 because it causes cracking of the surface.

Ed



>
>
> So this isn't working either right now.  Please let me know if you see a
> way out of this one.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jan 19, 2001
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:38:01 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" 
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 19 Jan 01   Washington, DC

1. DEPLETED URANIUM: THESE WERE NOT SMART WEAPONS.  We now have a
Balkan-War syndrome.  It's being blamed on U.S. use of depleted
uranium in armor-piercing projectiles.  One scientist we know
uses a block of depleted uranium as a door stop, but our Allies
were warned to wear protective clothing if they got near the
stuff. Countries that took the trouble to analyze troop data,
such as France, found no increased risk.  But many European
countries panicked. Greece threatened to pull 1500 peace-keeping
troops out of Kosovo after a sergeant, who had handled a
fragment, developed leukemia.  What military advantage, you might
ask, justified weapons that carry such a warning?   And why do we
squander U-238, which we may need for energy some day, on armor-
piercing bullets and ballast for high-performance aircraft?

2. CELL PHONES AND CANCER: THE EYES HAVE IT.  Although two recent
studies found no link between cell phone use and brain cancer (WN
22 Dec 00), a relatively weak German study now says regular users
are more likely to develop eye cancer.  By itself, evidence of a
statistical association is not enough   a plausible mechanism
must also be identified.  No mechanism is known by which
microwaves can induce cancer.  It's not like they haven't been
looking for one.  In 1977, long before Paul Brodeur set off the
false alarm over power lines and cancer, he almost destroyed the
budding market in microwave ovens by claiming that "leakage" from
ovens causes cataracts.  Microwaves do heat tissue, and might
cause cataracts at high enough power levels, but they cannot
create mutant strands of DNA.  Soon to be released studies should
end the controversy   but they won't.

3. OSTP: TRIAL BALLOON CRASHES IN FLAMES.  To bifurcate or not to
bifurcate? Last week, WN carried a story that OSTP might be split
into separate offices of science and technology (WN 12 Jan 01). 
There was an immediate outcry.  This week, a transition official
over-heatedly declared there was no substance to the rumor. 

4. DOE LABS: LIE DETECTOR TESTS LINKED TO LOW LAB MORALE.  At his
Senate confirmation hearing yesterday, Energy Secretary-Designate
Spencer Abraham expressed great concern about the morale of
scientists at DOE's Weapons Labs.  In response, Senator Pete V.
Domenici (R-NM), a congressional heavyweight, suggested that
Abraham have DOE review its plan to conduct "10 to 20 thousand
lie-detector tests" of lab employees.  Domenici called the plan
"borderline ludicrous" and damaging to the atmosphere at the
labs.  Meanwhile, following a seven-month FBI investigation, Bill
Richardson said that no criminal charges would be filed against
any Los Alamos employee in connection with the missing hard
drives.  And speaking of criminal charges, former CIA director
John Deutch is negotiating a misdemeanor plea to avoid a year of
hard time for his mishandling of classified information.

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 13:49:43 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:43:32 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:49:40 -0600:
[snip]
>The Arata loading of Pd-black and the gas loading of Pd catalyst as shown by Case
>do not involve any materials required by Mills.  In addition, the gas discharge
>methods used by the Russians does not involve the necessary materials.  Granted
>that the electrolytic method can contain a sufficient number of proposed
>impurities to make a case.  

There's one I forgot to mention, hydrogen itself can act as a catalyst:


3 x H -> Hy + 2 x H+ 

This is an exact match for energy, and H (or D) is always present. The only
requirement being that it be in the atomic form, and that three such atoms
come together concurrently. All CF experiments till now have involved
materials which absorb hydrogen to some extent, and in which H exists in the
atomic form (at least some of the time). Furthermore, some experiments
appear to show that the diffusion (read movement) of H through the material
is important. Such movement would ensure continual movement of the H,
resulting in the necessary collisions.

>Nevertheless, this seems to me to be a stretch -
>trying to explain one unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. a fusion reaction) by another
>unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. hydrinos).


If the second were accepted, then a mechanism would exist for the first, so
that it too would become accepted. IOW we are really only looking at one
miracle, not two.
>
>Ed Storms
BTW it the mechanism described above is valid, then one might expect *any*
method that promoted H movement within the lattice to improve the CF output.
E.g. heating the lattice to promote vibration - and lo and behold CF
increases with temperature :).

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 14:11:54 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:01:03 +1100
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:14:30 -0800:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> However for this to work, adjacent nuclei need to at least have different
>> NMR frequencies. In which case it may even be possible to drive the system
>> at the difference frequency between the NMR frequencies of the two nuclei.
>> One could end up with a system driven at just a few MHz...

I realised last night that this probably won't work, because the vibrating
nuclei won't be as high Q as I thought. They are all "electrically"
connected to one another, such that vibration in one soon gets transmitted
to the next. This is how heat gets conducted through the medium. It also
provides a path by which vibrational energy is lost to the lattice. So all
the pumping energy is going to do is heat the material. That said, it should
be obvious that an easier way to achieve the desired vibration is to
directly heat the material, however we already "know" that this doesn't
normally result in radioactivity.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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Robert Park wrote:

>2. CELL PHONES AND CANCER: THE EYES HAVE IT.  Although two recent
>studies found no link between cell phone use and brain cancer (WN
>22 Dec 00), a relatively weak German study now says regular users
>are more likely to develop eye cancer.  By itself, evidence of a
>statistical association is not enough   a plausible mechanism
>must also be identified.  No mechanism is known by which
>microwaves can induce cancer.

This guy does not understand epidemiology. You do not need to identify a 
mechanism; biology is not physics. A strong statistical correlation is 
accepted as proof. Expert opinion will vary over precisely how strong the 
correlation must be.

Park makes the same argument as the tobacco industry, which I expect he 
opposes.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 14:35:38 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:08:25 PST
From: Yahoo! News 
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Subject: Yahoo! News Story - Physicists Stop and Start Light
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Adam Cox (merlyn_x hotmail.com) has sent you a news article


Personal message:


Check this out...

"Frozen Light"

Merlyn


Physicists Stop and Start Light

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010119/sc/stopping_light_5.html






 









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·Scientists Hold Light Particles Captive - 
Reuters (Jan 19, 2001)


·Scientists Bring Light to Full Stop, Hold It, Then S
end It on Its Way - NY Times (registration req'd) (Jan 19, 2001)


·Researchers Briefly Bring Light Beam 
to a Dead Stop - Los Angeles Times (Jan 19, 2001)


·Light stopped in its tracks - BBC
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·Scientists Bring Light to Stop - Discovery
 Online (Jan 19, 2001)


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·Rowland Institute for Science: Bose-Einstein Condensation - includes 
selected articles in pdf format.


·Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics


·Gain-Assisted Superluminal Light Propagation - Dr. L
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·PhysicsWeb - physics news, reviews, event listings, and resources.
·How is the speed of light measured? - answers from 
a usenet FAQ on relativity. Also see Is The Speed of Light Constant?.


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Magazine Articles


·Trick of the light - Sal
on (Aug  3, 2000)


·Gain-assi
sted superluminal light propagation - by L.J. Wang, A. Kuzmich and A. Dogariu. - Nature Magazine (Jul 20, 2000)


·Speed of light: Is nothing sacred? - New
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·Slow Light for the Rest of Us - Physical Review Focus (Jun 29, 1999)



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Friday January 19 10:35 AM ET

Physicists Stop and Start Light
Physicists Stop and Start Light




By JOSEPH B. VERRENGIA, AP Science Writer 
Physicists say they have brought light particles to a screeching
halt, then revved them up again so that they could continue their
journey at a blistering 186,000 miles per second.
The results are the latest in a growing number of experiments
that manipulate light, the fastest and most ephemeral form of
energy in the universe.
Eventually, researchers hope to harness its speedy properties in
the development of more powerful computers and other technologies
that store information in light particles rather than electrons.
The experiments were conducted in separate laboratories in
Cambridge, Mass., by groups led by Lene Vestergaard Hau of Harvard
and the Rowland Institute of Science and Ronald L. Walsworth and
Mikhail D. Lukin of the Harvard-Smithsonian Institute for
Astrophysics.
The results will be published in upcoming issues of the journals
Nature and American Physical Letters.
Physicists who did not participate in the experiments said the
two research papers make an important contribution to understanding
the properties of light. However, any practical applications are
far off, they said.
``It's a real first,'' said Stanford physicist Stephen Harris,
who collaborated on a 1999 experiment with Hau that slowed light to
38 mph. ``These experiments are beautiful science.''
In the latest experiments, researchers took steps to not only
slow light to a virtual crawl, but to stop it completely.
To do so, they created a trap in which atoms of gas were chilled
magnetically to within a few-millionths of a degree of absolute
zero and a consistency they described as ``optical molasses.''
Hau's group used sodium atoms, while Walsworth's group used
rubidium, an alkaline metal.
Normally, the gas atoms would absorb any light directed into the
trap. The researchers solved this problem by aiming a ``control''
laser beam into the gas, which transformed it from opaque to a
state known as electromagnetic ally induced transparency, or EIT.
Then they shined a second, probe laser that operated at a
different frequency. When the wave of light particles hit the gas
atoms, the particles slowed dramatically.
To stop the probe light entirely, the researchers waited until
it had entered the vessel, encountered the gas atoms and imprinted
a pattern into the orientation of the spinning atoms.
Then the scientists gradually reduced the intensity of the
control beam.
As a result, the probe light dimmed and then vanished. But
information in the light particles still was imprinted on the atoms
of sodium and rubidium, effectively freezing or storing it,
according to Hau.
Then the scientists gradually restored the control beam. The
light that had been stored in the spinning atoms was reconstituted
and continued its journey through the vessel.
``It's as if you stretched a silk thread across a railroad track
and a train vanishes into it,'' said University of Colorado
physicist Eric Cornell, who reviewed the Hau study for Nature.
``You wait and then - bam! - the train reappears and goes
zooming down the track,'' Cornell said. ``It's not at all what you
would expect from a pulse of light.''
About 50 percent of the light - and its information - was
retrieved in the regenerated light pulse, scientists said. That
might not be good enough for a practical computing system, but it
demonstrates how such a system might store and ship data.
``Nothing is ready to be picked up by the optical communications
industry,'' Harris said. ``It needs further invention.''
Whether either group actually stopped the light completely is
open to some interpretation. The probe laser actually is a bundle
of light waves that form a single wave. This is known to physicists
as the group velocity; it is the light that your eye sees and a
camera uses to record an image.
Does stopping the group velocity means that the individual light
waves themselves were stopped? That's a deeper quantum question,
physicists said, but they considered the Cambridge groups' claims
to be valid.
``It is a real effect,'' said Ben Stein of the American Physical
Society.
Manipulating light's properties is a subject of intensely
competitive research. In July, physicists in Princeton, N.J.,
apparently pushed a laser pulse through a vapor of cesium atoms so
it traveled faster than the conventional speed of light.


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a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/mt/?u">View most popular  |  Printer-friendly format
<
!-- /TL -->



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 15:41:28 2001
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Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:40:10 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Yahoo! News Story - Physicists Stop and Start Light
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It is amazing this two part email got through vortex.  Isn't there supposed
to be a charcter limit?

More...














 
Friday January 19 10:35 AM ET

Physicists Stop and Start Light
Physicists Stop and Start Light




By JOSEPH B. VERRENGIA, AP Science Writer

Physicists say they have brought light particles to a
screeching
halt, then revved them up again so that they could continue their
journey at a blistering 186,000 miles per second.
The results are the
latest in a growing number of experiments
that manipulate light, the fastest and most ephemeral form of
energy in the universe.
Eventually, researchers hope to harness its
speedy properties in
the development of more powerful computers and other technologies
that store information in light particles rather than electrons.
The
experiments were conducted in separate laboratories in
Cambridge, Mass., by groups led by Lene Vestergaard Hau of Harvard
and the Rowland Institute of Science and Ronald L. Walsworth and
Mikhail D. Lukin of the Harvard-Smithsonian Institute for
Astrophysics.
The results will be published in upcoming issues of the journals
Nature and American Physical Letters.
Physicists who did not participate
in the experiments said the
two research papers make an important contribution to understanding
the properties of light. However, any practical applications are
far off, they said.
``It's a real first,'' said Stanford physicist
Stephen Harris,
who collaborated on a 1999 experiment with Hau that slowed light to
38 mph. ``These experiments are beautiful science.''
In the latest
experiments, researchers took steps to not only
slow light to a virtual crawl, but to stop it completely.
To do so, they
created a trap in which atoms of gas were chilled
magnetically to within a few-millionths of a degree of absolute
zero and a consistency they described as ``optical molasses.''
Hau's group used sodium atoms, while Walsworth's group used
rubidium, an alkaline metal.
Normally, the gas atoms would absorb any
light directed into the
trap. The researchers solved this problem by aiming a ``control''
laser beam into the gas, which transformed it from opaque to a
state known as electromagnetic ally induced transparency, or EIT.
Then
they shined a second, probe laser that operated at a
different frequency. When the wave of light particles hit the gas
atoms, the particles slowed dramatically.
To stop the probe light
entirely, the researchers waited until
it had entered the vessel, encountered the gas atoms and imprinted
a pattern into the orientation of the spinning atoms.
Then the scientists
gradually reduced the intensity of the
control beam.
As a result, the probe light dimmed and then vanished. But
information in the light particles still was imprinted on the atoms
of sodium and rubidium, effectively freezing or storing it,
according to Hau.
Then the scientists gradually restored the control beam. The
light that had been stored in the spinning atoms was reconstituted
and continued its journey through the vessel.
``It's as if you stretched
a silk thread across a railroad track
and a train vanishes into it,'' said University of Colorado
physicist Eric Cornell, who reviewed the Hau study for Nature.
``You wait
and then - bam! - the train reappears and goes
zooming down the track,'' Cornell said. ``It's not at all what you
would expect from a pulse of light.''
About 50 percent of the light - and
its information - was
retrieved in the regenerated light pulse, scientists said. That
might not be good enough for a practical computing system, but it
demonstrates how such a system might store and ship data.
``Nothing is
ready to be picked up by the optical communications
industry,'' Harris said. ``It needs further invention.''
Whether either
group actually stopped the light completely is
open to some interpretation. The probe laser actually is a bundle
of light waves that form a single wave. This is known to physicists
as the group velocity; it is the light that your eye sees and a
camera uses to record an image.
Does stopping the group velocity means
that the individual light
waves themselves were stopped? That's a deeper quantum question,
physicists said, but they considered the Cambridge groups' claims
to be valid.
``It is a real effect,'' said Ben Stein of the American Physical
Society.
Manipulating light's properties is a subject of intensely
competitive research. In July, physicists in Princeton, N.J.,
apparently pushed a laser pulse through a vapor of cesium atoms so
it traveled faster than the conventional speed of light.


Email this story - View most popular  |  P
rinter-friendly format




Earlier Stories

Phy
sicists Bring Light to a Stop (January 19)









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Date:




















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ET)

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News






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The Associated Press.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 16:04:15 2001
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Message-ID: <3A68D4EB.19173B1 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 12:59:39 +1300
From: John Berry 
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Subject: Geiger Counter
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Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For not too much) Any ideas?

And how important detecting alphas really is? What should the minimum scale be? (I'd want
to be able to detect background radiation)


Bill, I understand you have a geiger counter, any suggestions?
How much did your cost?


Thanks,
John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 16:52:25 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:37:38 -0600
From: Edmund Storms 
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 19, 2001]
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010119164136.00b04698 pop.mindspring.com>
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I read recently that a mechanism has been found.  While the energy is not
great enough to interact directly with the DNA, it is sufficient to modify
the chemical environment which can lead to cancer in the same manner as does
the chemicals found in the environment, such as those produced by smoking.
This mechanism is now being explored.  Park just does not think beyond the
obvious.

Ed Storms

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Robert Park wrote:
>
> >2. CELL PHONES AND CANCER: THE EYES HAVE IT.  Although two recent
> >studies found no link between cell phone use and brain cancer (WN
> >22 Dec 00), a relatively weak German study now says regular users
> >are more likely to develop eye cancer.  By itself, evidence of a
> >statistical association is not enough   a plausible mechanism
> >must also be identified.  No mechanism is known by which
> >microwaves can induce cancer.
>
> This guy does not understand epidemiology. You do not need to identify a
> mechanism; biology is not physics. A strong statistical correlation is
> accepted as proof. Expert opinion will vary over precisely how strong the
> correlation must be.
>
> Park makes the same argument as the tobacco industry, which I expect he
> opposes.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 17:00:00 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 17:42:55 -0600
From: Edmund Storms 
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John Berry wrote:

> Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For not too much) Any ideas?

Edmunds Scientific sells inexpensive GM counters for about $125.

>
>
> And how important detecting alphas really is? What should the minimum scale be? (I'd want
> to be able to detect background radiation)

You can not detect alpha using a GM counter.  This method only detects energetic beta and
gamma radiation.

Ed Storms

>
>
> Bill, I understand you have a geiger counter, any suggestions?
> How much did your cost?
>
> Thanks,
> John Berry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 17:00:27 2001
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From: ralph muha 
Subject: Re: Geiger Counter
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>Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For not too much) Any ideas?

there are always a few for sale on ebay...

also, velleman has a geiger counter kit that sells for about $140, I think...
(you need to provide your own enclosure)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 18:37:02 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 20:33:15 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: Geiger Counter
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At 05:42 PM 1/19/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>You can not detect alpha using a GM counter.  This method only detects 
>energetic beta and
>gamma radiation.

You know, I thought that too....until recently.  This GM-tube instrument:

http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm

(which I have) is advertised to detect 36% of 5.5 MeV alphas from 
Am-241.   I've got a piece of uranium ore and I can hold the Inspector up 
to it and it just roars with counts.  Then slide in between the two an 
ordinary sheet of paper and the count rate drops dramatically.  That which 
is stopped by the sheet of paper is surely the alphas from uranium.

Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 18:42:01 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 13:33:48 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <23th6t4f4rklemsue40p6lf34nq5cu9vpi 4ax.com>
References: <3A5F5088.8EB4C907 ix.netcom.com> <3A61D366.C474A987@pacbell.net> <3A61D3D8.3C6CA889@ix.netcom.com> <3A61FCE8.D62C69E7@pacbell.net> <3A622239.B0DE6409@ix.netcom.com> <3A634C7D.95C5E5C9@pacbell.net> <3A636219.3B9D2155@ix.netcom.com>  <3A6465B1.96F32D44@ix.netcom.com>  <3A685402.3D0C150D@ix.netcom.com> 
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In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:43:32
+1100:
[snip]
>3 x H -> Hy + 2 x H+ 
>
>This is an exact match for energy, and H (or D) is always present. The only
>requirement being that it be in the atomic form, and that three such atoms
>come together concurrently. 
[snip]
This would also lead to an explanation of "catalytic sites" in Pd (or any
other hydrogen absorbing material). These would be hollow spaces big enough
for three H atoms. The first H atom to enter such a site would just bounce
around. So would the second, because H + H -> H2 can only happen with
transfer of momentum to another object (though the wall would suffice). The
third atom would make either 

3 H -> H2 + H or 

3 H -> Hy + 2 H+ + 2 e- 

possible. If the first were to happen, then the H2 would eventually break up
upon contact with the wall (as happens to Hydrogen in these metals). Only
the second reaction is irreversible.

Eventually the Hy would come across either two other H atoms, or another Hy,
and shrink even further. Eventually it would be small enough to either pass
right out of the metal, or undergo a fusion reaction.
Therefore it may be worth the effort to find a way of creating the right
sized holes in Hydrogen absorbing metals. Metallic "aerogel" perhaps?
When H enters or leaves such a metal, it sticks to the surface, and three
way reactions on the surface should also be possible. This would explain the
success of the Arata Pd-black experiment, which provided a very large
surface area upon which such reactions could take place.
Nevertheless, I would expect a lattice full of small cavities to be ideal,
as these tend to keep the H hanging around in one place longer, increasing
the chance of a reaction.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 19:05:13 2001
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:10:10 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: AG affecting FM radio reception
In-Reply-To: 
References: <015d01c08222$e6be3d20$5a8f85ce fjsparber>
 <015d01c08222$e6be3d20$5a8f85ce fjsparber>
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I do not know directly of this speech but it is simple enough.  If you 
change gravity you change the rate at which the FM (or any mode) tuner 
functions.  An increase of gravity will not change the frequency of the 
signal but will change the wave length and the tuning of the receiver 
within the field.

At 12:44 PM 1/19/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Richard Hoagland mentioned that he gave a speech at the UN, in which he 
>mentioned that someone, , ( the name escapes me, but he worked on 
>homopolar generaors )  demonstrated that his antigravity experiment 
>affected the frequency that an FM radio receiver receives. The possible 
>reasons for this are mind boggeling. Does anyone know anything about this?
>
>Sincerely
>Thomas


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 20:23:45 2001
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January 19, 2001

Vortex,

I heard a fragment of this program yesterday night Thursday locally (L.A.)
from a Sand Diego station KOGO. The L.A. station  dropped the Art Bell
leftover. Picked up an early fragment where 'Gene & Hoagland was speculating
about 'IT'. Barely recognized 'Gene's voice --- it has changed.  Snozed off.
Later, waking up near Siegal's last five minutes (3:00 AM), they were still
talking about 'IT'. Don't know what was discussed in between. I doubt there
is  a repeat on Friday. Too much commercial advertising  (around 50%)
anyway.

-AK-

"Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:

> Gene Mallove will appear with Richard Hoagland on "Coast-to-Coast" radio
> with Mike Siegal, Friday 1/19/2001 from 1:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. (eastern
> time).
>
> It will be with a moderated (not moderate!) conversation about various
> scientific heresies -- cold fusion, other new energy sources, Mars
> imagry,  even IT/Ginger.
>
> Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 21:04:38 2001
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Dr. Mallove,

Thank you, I have posted your summary.

Greg Bottorff
info theITquestion.com
http://www.theITquestion.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 19 21:55:24 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:01:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Michael T. Huffman" 
Subject: Re: Vortex-L and HTML-coded email
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Scott wrote:

>Bob started it by sending HTML formatted email to Vortex-L.  I'm using 
>Eudora 5.0 which can go either way so, when I responded, it kept the HTML 
>formatting.
>
>Apparently Horace (and surely others) are NOT using email clients that can 
>parse the HTML commands, so everybody please send plain ASCII messages to 
>Vortex-L.
Hi Scott,

I used the original version of Eudora Lite for nearly seven years, and it 
was quite trouble free once I learned to avoid a certain few operations 
like setting the program to automatically send and receive mail immediately 
upon logging on to my service provider.  The program would attempt to 
perform a simultaneous send and receive and evidently this particular 
operation would sometimes mix the addresses up, so that mail that was 
outgoing would go to peoples' addresses that were simultaneously coming 
in.  You can imagine my embarassment when the Vortex Group received 
messages that were written and addressed to my closest, most personal 
friends...  Once I figured this out what was causing it, I stopped doing 
that, and the program performed flawlessly thereafter.

Naturally, when I recently moved up to a 32bit OS, I went straight to the 
Eudora homepage to get the latest version.  I've been puzzling over the 
changes made to the program and the implications, ever since.  While you 
may think that you are not sending formatted text, and indeed, the Eudora 
program may be displaying plain ASCII text to you and others using 
compatible viewers on your screens, the fact is that with some 
configurations, the underlying structure of the message can include a 
certain amount of formatting known as an "X wrapper", that is an extension 
of the Hypertext Markup Language.

On looking at the underlying raw files of my own compositions, some of the 
messages that I have send out have this X wrapper, and others don't.  I've 
noticed the same with your messages as well.  Sometimes it is there, 
sometimes not, but in all cases, it doesn't show up on the screen.  The 
settings for my program haven't been changed, I checked that, there is 
something else happening, and I'm still looking into that.  If you will 
recall, I made the same somewhat impassioned plea for people to use ASCII 
only sends just a week or so ago, only to find to my chagrin a few days 
later that my plea itself had an X wrapper on it.

There are other things about the new Eudora 5 program that I have either 
found to be happening or at least suspect are happening, that are also 
troublesome to the point of being a bit disturbing.  The Qualcomm company 
has decided to use your new high speed computer hardware's capabilities to 
perform tasks in the background that it just couldn't do before due to 
storage space and CPU speed limitations of the older machines.  One of 
these newer functions or tasks is to keep extensive logs of your usage of 
"their" program.  It states in one of the buried txt files that the company 
makes use of these logs from time to time in order to better serve 
you.  This wouldn't be too bad if it were true, but I think the "services" 
and their implications should be better explained, and they should be 
explained in the fullest of detail possible before the installation of the 
software itself.

One feature that I turned on was called the Mood Watch feature.  According 
to the documentation, this feature was designed to pre-read your incoming 
messages, scan them for words that may be offensive to you, and warn you 
about them before you open the messages.  When I turned the feature on 
however, I found that the feature worked not only on my incoming messages, 
but on my outgoing messages as well.  If I tried to send a message with any 
words relating to suction for example, a screen would pop up and suggest 
that I should have my mouth washed out with soap.  I am supposing that the 
program has a lexicon of "dirty words", also buried somewhere, that it uses 
for the scanning, but I have yet to see it. I would like to see it just for 
fun.  Being a sailor and a lover of obscene language, I may be able to make 
a significant contribution to Qualcomm's dirty word compilation effort.

What I did see though, was another separate log file buried in the Eudora 
directory containing every instance where I tried to send an e-mail 
containing a word that the program decided was "dirty".  Not only did the 
log record the instance, it also recorded the name and e-mail address of 
the person that I was trying to send it to.  For you this might not be a 
problem, as I would expect that you could use this feature for years, and 
the size of the log file would never exceed 1 kilobyte.  I think my file 
was over 300 k's large, and I've only been using the program for a 
month.  This file alone could quickly take up my entire hard drive if I 
continued using the feature, so I turned it off.  At least I think I turned 
it off.  The pop-up windows saying that I should wash my mouth out with 
soap have gone away, anyway.

I could go on and on about the implications of this, and the many, many 
other detailed things that I have found in my investigation of Eudora 5, 
Win98 and my new machine, but suffice it to say that these newer programs 
have become extremely sophisticated in ferreting out or obtaining 
information on your computer, and since the newer machines are so much 
faster, most people will not notice that this is even happening.  These 
things are consciously being done by companies that have always been 
considered to be of high repute in their dealings with their customers and 
the rest of the community.  It is also more than a possibility that the 
programs that they have written are capable of influencing a user's life 
and broader behaviors in ways that may or may not be good for them without 
informing them of the possibility or how to adequately avoid the 
possibility if they choose to do so.

Firewalls and virus scanners are useless if the operating system and the 
application programs themselves are malicious trojan horses.  Even 
unplugging the phone wire of your computer when it is not online is useless 
if your actions are logged, recorded or stored until you do go online, and 
I'm still observing my machine squirting significant chunks of unknown data 
(usually in 5k blocks) out into cyberspace for no apparent reason.  My 
investigation of this still continues.

In short, I am on the lookout for another 32 bit e-mail client that is 
hardwired to send and display ASCII text only along with the occasional 
MIME encoded attachment, does a decent job of filtering and pre-sorting my 
incoming mail, allows me to view the entire routing header, doesn't have 
any MAPI capability built into it at all, doesn't make value judgements on 
my use of the English language, and in particular one that doesn't care 
what my DNA structure is or have yet another wonderful plan for my 
life.  Eudora 5 is definitely none of the above.  I have heard that the YAM 
program is good, but have yet to try it.  If anyone has any other 
suggestions for one, let me know.  Optimally, I would like an Open Source 
program with the source code, so I can read it, learn from it, and 
customize it myself, but just a binary would do for now until I can switch 
to Linux or FreeBSD.

Knuke


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 00:45:43 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 08:45:13 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 01:01:38 -0500, "Michael T. Huffman"
 wrote:

>In short, I am on the lookout for another 32 bit e-mail client that is 
>hardwired to send and display ASCII text only along with the occasional 
>MIME encoded attachment, does a decent job of filtering and pre-sorting my 
>incoming mail, allows me to view the entire routing header, doesn't have 
>any MAPI capability built into it at all, doesn't make value judgements on 
>my use of the English language, and in particular one that doesn't care 
>what my DNA structure is or have yet another wonderful plan for my 
>life.  

Agent

 http://www.forteinc.com

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 06:37:39 2001
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Scott Little wrote:

... Apparently Horace (and surely others) are NOT
using email clients that can parse the HTML commands,
so everybody please send plain ASCII messages to Vortex-L.

Knuke wrote:

... Eudora 5 is definitely none of the above. ...
If anyone has any other suggestions for one, let me know.

Hi All,

Yes, please turn off html.  You may be propagating, among
other things, the kak virus in the html rendition of your
email. (kak is not an attachment; those who are sending it
do not know they are infected.)

I use popclient (Linux) to download my email into one
large text file.  And a I read it on a test screen with vi.
I skip anything in html-only or in MS Word. (Sometimes
I delete that stuff before archiving if I'm having a neatness fit)
I copy out to separate files messages I want to answer.

Sometimes I'll bother to read the html versions of ascii messages --
on occasion there is some really weird stuff.  So please
turn off html before sending email to the list.

Thanks, Jack Smith




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 06:39:09 2001
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At 01:01 AM 1/20/2001 -0500, Michael T. Huffman wrote:

>On looking at the underlying raw files of my own compositions, some of the 
>messages that I have send out have this X wrapper, and others don't.  I've 
>noticed the same with your messages as well.

Very interesting, Knuke.  Note that under Tools, Options, Styled Text, 
there is a place to check "Send Plain Text Only", which I just did before 
sending this message to you.  How does it look?

>Scott Little

EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 08:48:51 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 11:45:17 -0800
From: Terry Blanton 
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ralph muha wrote:
> 
> >Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For not too much) Any ideas?
> 
> there are always a few for sale on ebay...

An Ebay search returned 45 counters, many under $20.

Terry

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Akira Kawasaki wrote:
> 
> January 19, 2001
> 
> Vortex,
> 
> I heard a fragment of this program yesterday night Thursday locally (L.A.)
> from a Sand Diego station KOGO. The L.A. station  dropped the Art Bell
> leftover. Picked up an early fragment where 'Gene & Hoagland was speculating
> about 'IT'. Barely recognized 'Gene's voice --- it has changed.  Snozed off.
> Later, waking up near Siegal's last five minutes (3:00 AM), they were still
> talking about 'IT'. Don't know what was discussed in between. I doubt there
> is  a repeat on Friday. Too much commercial advertising  (around 50%)
> anyway.

You can listen to it any time on Windoze Media Player at:

http://www.artbell.com/topics.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 09:28:48 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:09:52 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: FAA Memo Calls DU Ballast Toxic
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> This would also lead to an explanation of "catalytic sites" in Pd (or any
> other hydrogen absorbing material). These would be hollow spaces > big enough for three H atoms...

> Therefore it may be worth the effort to find a way of creating the right
> sized holes in Hydrogen absorbing metals. Metallic "aerogel" perhaps?

I have been thinking about this "hole" or active
site idea for a while and it explains several
things in CF or LENR, including the
non-reproducibility issue, better than
alternative suggestions. Could it really be true
that many CF reactions are indeed just Mills
reactions, or alternatively are Mills reactions
followed by a secondary Hy reaction with pd or
an alloy contaminant which produces and alpha
particle (to explain He where it is seen)? That
suggestion is likely to generate some steam!!

It would seem like having enough of the
exact-sized holes and keeping them stable and
filled would be the problem using bulk materials
over extended periods. With pd black, for
instance, you would have some percentage of
active sites initially but these active sites
would eventually enlarge over time due to the
energy they create, and there is no mechanism to
replace them.

A small variation in size would quench the
process, so even if it has been shown to work
with Pd black for some period of time, the very
mechanics of the reaction would make it
self-defeating. ( Referring now to the Mills
reaction, not CF or Case, unless these phenomena
are all interrelated). This Pd black or Ti black
reaction, being not reproducible might only mean
that the extreme ductility of these metals
allows "good" holes to enlarge once a reaction
is accomplished, so that after a while there are
no good holes left.

An "in situ" recompression scheme using
ultasonics is a possibility to solve this
problem, but there are other alternative
solutions as well which, unfortunately, would be
much more complicated than using a bulk
material. 

One alternative would be to use a structure that
was precisely manufactured with the proper holes
and not ductile. This would be done using
photolithography to etch the submicron holes
into films of a ceramic proton containment
material such as magnesium oxide, which has been
deposited onto a Ni substrate. In this proposal
each etched cavity or hole could hold no more
than two molecules at a given pressure, say 100
atm.

Other details: many layers would be stacked into
a reaction module pressurized with H2 and
oscillated at ultrasonic frequency by a
piezo-chip, kind of like an "accordion" just
enough to breathe and expel H2 throughout the
layers. Each of the final cavities (say ~10e12
holes per layer and ~10e5 layers per module)
would then appear to be a MgO hole filled with
two molecules with a flat Ni cap (actually of
course only a fraction of holes would be filled
at any one time with two molecules but that
affects only the output).

The "holy" module is tightly sealed in a
structure that provides for rf stimulation,
which will create via the skin effect an e field
on the many layers of Ni and raise the temp.
Then the Ni layer, which is on one side of each
small cavity can serve to catalytically ionize
the H2 molecules. You have an extra hydrogen
over the three needed, of course, but that
excess might actually increase the probability
of getting the proper 3 atom alignment.

Very complicated. Maybe I should go back and
look at ways to use ultrasonic techniques to
keep producing enough of the correctly sized
holes in a bulk material - pd black?

Jones

BTW if anyone responds to this, please change
the subject line as we have finally progressed a
little since Bosnia.

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha 
Subject: Re: Geiger Counter
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>ralph muha wrote:
>>
>> >Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For not too much) Any ideas?
>>
>> there are always a few for sale on ebay...
>
>An Ebay search returned 45 counters, many under $20.

mostly, these are civil defense surplus...

you have to look carefully, many of them are not real geiger counters,
(I think they are more properly called radiation assay meters)
they don't have g-m tubes, they use ionization chambers, designed to
measure high levels of radiation, eg, after a nuclear blast. the CDV-700's
have a G-M
probe, while the CDV-715's have the chamber.  if the description doesn't say,
you can tell by the picture, the 700 has the probe that snaps into the top
of the handle, while the 715 just has a handle, the chamber is inside the
box, near the front...

there are sometimes complete kits for sale, which include both types of
meters and a set of personal dosimeters. there also kits that only have
the 715 type and the dosimeters...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 10:29:05 2001
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From: Edmund Storms 
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Scott Little wrote:

> At 05:42 PM 1/19/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >You can not detect alpha using a GM counter.  This method only detects
> >energetic beta and
> >gamma radiation.
>
> You know, I thought that too....until recently.  This GM-tube instrument:
>
> http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm
>
> (which I have) is advertised to detect 36% of 5.5 MeV alphas from
> Am-241.   I've got a piece of uranium ore and I can hold the Inspector up
> to it and it just roars with counts.  Then slide in between the two an
> ordinary sheet of paper and the count rate drops dramatically.  That which
> is stopped by the sheet of paper is surely the alphas from uranium.

I suspect the particles being stopped are mainly betas from the daughter
products.  Very few alpha would get out of the ore.  As for the 36% detection
from Am241, according to my information this isotope gives off a weak gamma
along with the alpha.  I suspect the GM is actually detecting the gamma.
Alpha radiation has only about a 10 cm range even in air.  The window of the
GM counter would easily stop them.  The usual method is to use an open-ended
proportional counter or one that uses a VERY thin window, one that would be
much too thin for a GM counter.

Ed

>
>
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 10:58:18 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 10:42:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: Geiger Counter
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Anybody know where to get a geiger counter? (For
not too much) Any ideas?

What is too much? With cheap you don't get many
features.

Rather than the civil defense type you find on
ebay for $20, you might get a lot more
sensitivity and usefulness for real
experimentation out of the kind of GM packages
that use a pc for data logging - and they are
not much more. This is especially useful if you
have an old laptop sitting around that is too
slow for anything else.

A company called Aware sells a pc capable model
over the internet for $250.

A step up from Aware is a French company called
Oritech. I found an Oritech on  ebay for about
$100 but they are rare - normally $300 retail.
Another advantage of these is that because they
have data logging with calibrated software you
can use tables (also on the internet) and time
stamping to get a picture, not only the isotopes
involved, but also of their relative proportions
in your sample - especially short lived isotopes
like radon and other daughters, as they have
very distinct short half-lives. This technique
doesn't work for minerals that might have many
isotopes present and/or for the very long-lived
isotopes. The Oritech literature also claims to
detect alphas but in a large samples the issue
is moot as you will have plenty of secondary
gammas.

Be sure that whatever you buy goes down to
microrem in sensitivity - and will accurately
measure background levels (a few microrem/ hr).
The CD kind usually require a full millirem to
get a reading - so are only useful for
"emergencies" shall we say.

I also have a Bicron analyst "box" that has been
recalibrated for neutrons. Some of the old hv
boxes like the analyst can use BF tubes to
detect neutrons, which the GM can't do, and you
can buy the tubes separately on ebay but you
will need to have them calibrated to your box if
you want to have any chance at accuracy -
neutrons can be very tricky and your might be
detecting only a small fraction of those
present. The boxes don't have data logging but
you can rig up its speaker to a pc sound card
and achieve decent results with the proper data
logging software that uses the sound card for
input - if you have been given the proper
ratios. 

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 12:37:43 2001
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From: John Schnurer 
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Subject: Window ...... NOT software...Re: Geiger Counter
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	Dear Ed,

	
	I have a couple of GM and proportional counters with windows of
carbon on mica and these are specified at 2 millgrams per cm square.
These VERY thin windows will detect alpha.  I am wondering if there are
any other window materials you know of?
	AND:  The nicest one of these probes is a "pancake" and is fully
1.75 inches across and not even 1 cm deep.

	The method of testing a counter by blocking with paper and Al foil
is so well known I often fall into the trap thinking "Gee I thought
everyone knows this" 

	What is your suggestion to a post wherein the poster has a thin
background in a subject, but continues to want many questions answered?

	Do you suggest books and self education?  A good quality Science
and Technology Encyclopedia?  Any ones you know of as a good reference 
such as McGraw and Hill?  Others?

				J



On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Edmund Storms wrote:

> 
> 
> Scott Little wrote:
> 
> > At 05:42 PM 1/19/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> >
> > >You can not detect alpha using a GM counter.  This method only detects
> > >energetic beta and
> > >gamma radiation.
> >
> > You know, I thought that too....until recently.  This GM-tube instrument:
> >
> > http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm
> >
> > (which I have) is advertised to detect 36% of 5.5 MeV alphas from
> > Am-241.   I've got a piece of uranium ore and I can hold the Inspector up
> > to it and it just roars with counts.  Then slide in between the two an
> > ordinary sheet of paper and the count rate drops dramatically.  That which
> > is stopped by the sheet of paper is surely the alphas from uranium.
> 
> I suspect the particles being stopped are mainly betas from the daughter
> products.  Very few alpha would get out of the ore.  As for the 36% detection
> from Am241, according to my information this isotope gives off a weak gamma
> along with the alpha.  I suspect the GM is actually detecting the gamma.
> Alpha radiation has only about a 10 cm range even in air.  The window of the
> GM counter would easily stop them.  The usual method is to use an open-ended
> proportional counter or one that uses a VERY thin window, one that would be
> much too thin for a GM counter.
> 
> Ed
> 
> >
> >
> > Scott Little
> > EarthTech International, Inc.
> > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> > Austin TX 78759
> > 512-342-2185
> > 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> > http://www.earthtech.org
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 14:04:06 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 08:57:03 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:09:52 -0800:
[snip]
>It would seem like having enough of the
>exact-sized holes and keeping them stable and
>filled would be the problem using bulk materials
>over extended periods. With pd black, for
[snip]
A relatively straightforward method of producing the initial material, might
be to start with carbonyl-nickel. When decomposed, this produces an
extremely finely divided Ni powder. If this powder were then sintered into a
porous block, it would contain a huge internal surface area, and also many
small cavities. Actual cavity sizes could be varied by experimenting with
temperature and pressure during the sintering process.

When the right average cavity size is found, the block should heat rapidly
when flushed with high pressure hydrogen gas.

Because it is mostly a metal block, it should still conduct heat fairly
well, so could easily be cooled by passing copper pipes filled with coolant
through holes bored in the block.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 17:18:40 2001
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Subject: Re: Vortex-L and HTML-coded email
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At 09:37 AM 1/20/01, you wrote:

>Very interesting, Knuke.  Note that under Tools, Options, Styled Text, 
>there is a place to check "Send Plain Text Only", which I just did before 
>sending this message to you.  How does it look?
>
>>Scott Little

Hi Scott,

It looks normal to me because like so many others on this list, I'm using a 
MAPI compliant, X capable e-mail client.  That's the point.  Mine and yours 
happen to be Eudora, which is one of the more ill behaved, but after going 
over the raw data files again, I see that your message still has an X 
wrapper on it.  It doesn't have it on it all the time though, and that is 
what is confusing me.  Dean and some others privately recommended Agent, 
and I thank them for the recommendation, but it too however, is a MAPI 
compliant, X capable e-mail client from what I am seeing in their message 
headers.  Their e-mail does not have the same X wrapper on what they have 
sent however, I think that they could well be equally at risk of opening a 
destructive e-mail and not know it, simply because nothing abnormal would 
appear on their screens.

I said that Eudora is one of the more ill behaved.  It really is a piece of 
work once you dig into it a bit.  I won't list all that I have found, but 
it uses its' own proprietary MAPI server and client runtimes, and it grabs 
or displaces the ones that Windows uses, so that even if you think you have 
MAPI turned off, the Eudora program can use it anyway for data collection 
and delivery purposes.  It swaps in a few registry entries upon launching, 
and then swaps them back out when it closes, which is a really poor 
programming practice.  It causes a lot of problems with other programs, 
I've noticed. There is also a technique whereby someone can "surf through" 
your computer while you are online using the MAPI protocol, something 
similar to the old TIA program that many people used before PPP and SLIP 
were widely available for all the different types of PC's.  While you may 
think that you have thwarted that ability in Windows, you basically can't 
turn it off with Eudora because that is the same ability that it uses to 
transmit the logged data to its' secure servers.  In other words, it can 
tunnel a firewall, I'm pretty sure.  Mail and many other forms of data 
(like screen snapshots ala VPN...) can be composed and sent out of your 
machine without the program being turned on, and you wouldn't know 
it.  Eudora seems also to have built into it the same type of software in a 
much more sophisticated form that Napster and others use for filesharing, etc..

The old Eudora was around 250k in size, and did a marvelous job.  The new 
one with all the manuals etc., is over 10 megs.  This Hollywood production 
is coming off of my machine ASAP, and being replaced by something faster 
and lighter, and something that I can understand completely.

Like I said, I'm not really "up" on all this stuff, and I don't mean to be 
crying "The Sky is Falling!!", but there do seem to be irregularities and 
improprieties with the Qualcomm program that bother me.  Until I do have a 
better grip on what is happening in the actual hardware itself, something 
that the newer Windows wants me to avoid at all costs it seems, I'm going 
to have to go with programs that have more limited functionality.

Knuke


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 18:35:39 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 02:30:31 GMT
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Hi Knuke,

On Sat, 20 Jan 2001 20:20:40 -0500, "Michael T. Huffman"
 wrote:

>Agent, ...
> is a MAPI 
>compliant, X capable e-mail client from what I am seeing in their message 
>headers.  

Agent strips HTML, but uses external clients for any attachments or
other stuff it doesn't understand.  Nothing is opened automatically
unless you wish it to be (it will also save attachments automatically,
if you wish).

>Their e-mail does not have the same X wrapper on what they have 
>sent however, I think that they could well be equally at risk of opening a 
>destructive e-mail and not know it, simply because nothing abnormal would 
>appear on their screens.

As far as I can tell, there is no danger from email or attachments.
I've received many virus-laden emails, and ignore (delete)  them.  The
only way I can allow a virus (trojan, etc.) would be to deliberately
open them with another program.

There are some things in Agent I would change, but it's the best
email/newsgroup program I've seen so far.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 19:13:55 2001
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Message-ID: <006601c0835f$ab42fe00$93b4bfa8 fjsparber>
From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Light Lepton Wager
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 20:06:53 -0800
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I'm betting that a fairly large sheet of "electret" plastic (or Saran Wrap)
stretched over a frame will collect O2, H2O, and dust particles, that have
Light Leptons (+/-) with a rest energy/mass of  ~ 27.2 ev  attached.

Roughly, there should be about 500 million of these per cubic meter
of air, and it might take several days to get a goodly amount collected.

When washed with water, and the wash water collected and
reacted with K to form KOH, then atmospheric CO2 to
form K2CO3,  and electrolyzed in a  Mills-type electrolysis cell 
more significant OU/Hydrino effects will be observed.

Any takers?   :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 20:46:56 2001
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From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: Geiger Counter
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At 11:24 AM 1/20/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:

>I suspect the particles being stopped are mainly betas from the daughter
>products.  Very few alpha would get out of the ore.

I've actually observed the 5-10 cm long "roman candle" tracks that the 
alphas from this very ore make in a cloud chamber.  This is high-grade 
stuff, essentially pure uranium oxide.

>As for the 36% detection
>from Am241, according to my information this isotope gives off a weak gamma
>along with the alpha.  I suspect the GM is actually detecting the gamma.
>Alpha radiation has only about a 10 cm range even in air.  The window of the
>GM counter would easily stop them.

Not this GM tube.  10 cm of air is 13 milligrams/cm^2.  The mica window on 
this GM tube is only 1.5-2.0 mg/cm^2.  See specs at:

http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm



Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 21:45:40 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:43:30 -0600
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 19, 2001]
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>I read recently that a mechanism has been found.  While the energy is not
>great enough to interact directly with the DNA, it is sufficient to modify

It looks to me like a lot of regular cell phone users are developing 
brain cancer

>Ed Storms wrote

This mechanism is now being explored.  Park just does not think beyond the
obvious.

During the Coast to Coast interview last week Richard Hoagland 
mentioned that he was told that certain technological developments 
would not be allowed to go to market. Park appears to be a part of 
this effort.
>
>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
>  > Robert Park wrote:
>>
>   No mechanism is known by which
>  > >microwaves can induce cancer.
>  >

I think that Park is once again talking trash

>  > Park makes the same argument as the tobacco industry, which I expect he
>>  opposes.
>>
>>  - Jed

I assume that he has sold his stock in them.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 20 21:58:09 2001
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 23:54:53 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: AG affecting FM radio reception
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>I do not know directly of this speech but it is simple enough.  If 
>you change gravity you change the rate at which the FM (or any mode) 
>tuner functions.  An increase of gravity will not change the 
>frequency of the signal but will change the wave length and the 
>tuning of the receiver within the field.


Hum, I wonder is this might be a way to monitor gravity fluxiations.

>
>At 12:44 PM 1/19/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>Richard Hoagland mentioned that he gave a speech at the UN, in 
>>which he mentioned that someone, , ( the name escapes me, but he 
>>worked on homopolar generaors )  demonstrated that his antigravity 
>>experiment affected the frequency that an FM radio receiver 
>>receives. The possible reasons for this are mind boggeling. Does 
>>anyone know anything about this?
>>
>>Sincerely
>>Thomas
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 00:04:58 2001
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I was surprised so many didn't know...
Still my question is "how useful" is the ability to detect alphas?

I know such a question is mainly asking opinions, it obviously depends on what exactly I
want it for.

I have heard a lot about pancake coils, they sound good.
Any down side?

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Ed,
>
>
>         I have a couple of GM and proportional counters with windows of
> carbon on mica and these are specified at 2 millgrams per cm square.
> These VERY thin windows will detect alpha.  I am wondering if there are
> any other window materials you know of?
>         AND:  The nicest one of these probes is a "pancake" and is fully
> 1.75 inches across and not even 1 cm deep.
>
>         The method of testing a counter by blocking with paper and Al foil
> is so well known I often fall into the trap thinking "Gee I thought
> everyone knows this"
>
>         What is your suggestion to a post wherein the poster has a thin
> background in a subject, but continues to want many questions answered?
>
>         Do you suggest books and self education?  A good quality Science
> and Technology Encyclopedia?  Any ones you know of as a good reference
> such as McGraw and Hill?  Others?
>
>                                 J
>
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2001, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Scott Little wrote:
> >
> > > At 05:42 PM 1/19/2001 -0600, Edmund Storms wrote:
> > >
> > > >You can not detect alpha using a GM counter.  This method only detects
> > > >energetic beta and
> > > >gamma radiation.
> > >
> > > You know, I thought that too....until recently.  This GM-tube instrument:
> > >
> > > http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm
> > >
> > > (which I have) is advertised to detect 36% of 5.5 MeV alphas from
> > > Am-241.   I've got a piece of uranium ore and I can hold the Inspector up
> > > to it and it just roars with counts.  Then slide in between the two an
> > > ordinary sheet of paper and the count rate drops dramatically.  That which
> > > is stopped by the sheet of paper is surely the alphas from uranium.
> >
> > I suspect the particles being stopped are mainly betas from the daughter
> > products.  Very few alpha would get out of the ore.  As for the 36% detection
> > from Am241, according to my information this isotope gives off a weak gamma
> > along with the alpha.  I suspect the GM is actually detecting the gamma.
> > Alpha radiation has only about a 10 cm range even in air.  The window of the
> > GM counter would easily stop them.  The usual method is to use an open-ended
> > proportional counter or one that uses a VERY thin window, one that would be
> > much too thin for a GM counter.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Scott Little
> > > EarthTech International, Inc.
> > > 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> > > Austin TX 78759
> > > 512-342-2185
> > > 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> > > http://www.earthtech.org
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 05:31:02 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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Hi Scott,

With your background in x-ray fluorescence, I am looking for
some ideas that you might have on using off-the-shelf CdS Photoconductors
or Silicon Solar Cells (a few $ each at Radioshack) to look at
suspected x-rays or EUV off the cathode of electrolysis cells.

My thought on this is that the radiation impinging on these will 
cause Compton Scattering of the charge carriers and thus develop
a measurable signal if the proper electronics are used.

Thoughts?

Regards,   Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 07:22:12 2001
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From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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At 06:18 AM 1/21/2001 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>With your background in x-ray fluorescence, I am looking for
>some ideas that you might have on using off-the-shelf CdS Photoconductors
>or Silicon Solar Cells (a few $ each at Radioshack) to look at
>suspected x-rays or EUV off the cathode of electrolysis cells.
>
>My thought on this is that the radiation impinging on these will
>cause Compton Scattering of the charge carriers and thus develop
>a measurable signal if the proper electronics are used.

You're on the right track with the silicon photocell.  Take a look at what 
can be done with silicon these days:

http://www.amptek.com/xr100cr.html

Usually, these detectors are some kind of diode that is 
reverse-biased.  When an x-ray is stopped in the detector, it creates a 
bunch of electron-hole pairs which are then swept out by the applied bias 
and detected with a low-noise charge-sensitive amplifier.

Maybe a reverse biased photocell would produce a detectable current with a 
large x-ray flux.   Frankly, I'd be surprised if a CdS photocell would 
respond to x-rays...unless you were really blasting it.

The cheapest off-the-shelf method of x-ray detection is probably a surplus 
GM tube...


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 07:48:38 2001
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Scott Little 
To: ; 
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors

Thanks Scott.

My thought on the CdS Photoconductors which cost about 60 cents
each, is that X-rays or EUV will kick electrons up into the conduction
band  and lower the dark resistance by orders of magnitude.

Even if the effect is on the outer few angstroms of surface, it follows that the
parallel resistance effect should make the photoconductor extremely
sensitive to it.

Although such a scheme is only qualitative, it's cheap.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


> At 06:18 AM 1/21/2001 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> >With your background in x-ray fluorescence, I am looking for
> >some ideas that you might have on using off-the-shelf CdS Photoconductors
> >or Silicon Solar Cells (a few $ each at Radioshack) to look at
> >suspected x-rays or EUV off the cathode of electrolysis cells.
> >
> >My thought on this is that the radiation impinging on these will
> >cause Compton Scattering of the charge carriers and thus develop
> >a measurable signal if the proper electronics are used.
> 
> You're on the right track with the silicon photocell.  Take a look at what 
> can be done with silicon these days:
> 
> http://www.amptek.com/xr100cr.html
> 
> Usually, these detectors are some kind of diode that is 
> reverse-biased.  When an x-ray is stopped in the detector, it creates a 
> bunch of electron-hole pairs which are then swept out by the applied bias 
> and detected with a low-noise charge-sensitive amplifier.
> 
> Maybe a reverse biased photocell would produce a detectable current with a 
> large x-ray flux.   Frankly, I'd be surprised if a CdS photocell would 
> respond to x-rays...unless you were really blasting it.
> 
> The cheapest off-the-shelf method of x-ray detection is probably a surplus 
> GM tube...
> 
> 
> Scott Little
> EarthTech International, Inc.
> 4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
> Austin TX 78759
> 512-342-2185
> 512-346-3017 (FAX)
> http://www.earthtech.org
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 08:27:11 2001
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Scott,

These are the type of photoconductors (photocells) that Radioshack sells 
for less than $3.00 for 5 units.

 http://www.clairex.com/?

Also www.photonicdetectors.com carries a variety of CdS photoconductors.

Regards,    Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 08:34:02 2001
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From: ralph muha 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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At 9:18 AM -0500 1/21/01, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>some ideas that you might have on using off-the-shelf CdS Photoconductors
>or Silicon Solar Cells (a few $ each at Radioshack) to look at

all electronics (www.allelectronics.com) has small silicon photovoltaic
detectors, cat # PVD-2, .31" x .23", 0.4V nominal output, $0.75 each, 10
for $6.50

At 10:15 AM -0500 1/21/01, Scott Little wrote:
>Usually, these detectors are some kind of diode that is
>reverse-biased.  When an x-ray is stopped in the detector, it creates a

they also have photo-transistors (ledtech # LT9593-91-0125) in T1 3/4 pkg,
cat # PTR-1 and photo-diodes (ledtech # LT4W55-2120-EA), cat # PD-2, both
$0.65 each

>The cheapest off-the-shelf method of x-ray detection is probably a surplus
>GM tube...

the electronics goldmine (www.goldmine-elec.com) sells a miniature GM tube,
1.3" L x .36" D, uses 450-650V, cat # G2903, $34.95


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 08:46:58 2001
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Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: ralph muha 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors

Great leads, Ralph.   Thanks much.

Regards,  Frederick


> At 9:18 AM -0500 1/21/01, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >some ideas that you might have on using off-the-shelf CdS Photoconductors
> >or Silicon Solar Cells (a few $ each at Radioshack) to look at
> 
> all electronics (www.allelectronics.com) has small silicon photovoltaic
> detectors, cat # PVD-2, .31" x .23", 0.4V nominal output, $0.75 each, 10
> for $6.50
> 
> At 10:15 AM -0500 1/21/01, Scott Little wrote:
> >Usually, these detectors are some kind of diode that is
> >reverse-biased.  When an x-ray is stopped in the detector, it creates a
> 
> they also have photo-transistors (ledtech # LT9593-91-0125) in T1 3/4 pkg,
> cat # PTR-1 and photo-diodes (ledtech # LT4W55-2120-EA), cat # PD-2, both
> $0.65 each
> 
> >The cheapest off-the-shelf method of x-ray detection is probably a surplus
> >GM tube...
> 
> the electronics goldmine (www.goldmine-elec.com) sells a miniature GM tube,
> 1.3" L x .36" D, uses 450-650V, cat # G2903, $34.95
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 09:48:25 2001
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 12:44:41 -0500
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From: ralph muha 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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here's a link for the velleman geiger counter kit

http://www.velleman.be/Product.asp?lan=1&id=9091

the G-M tube appears to be the same size as the
one sold by the electronics goldmine


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 10:01:53 2001
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Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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At 08:38 AM 1/21/2001 -0800, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>My thought on the CdS Photoconductors which cost about 60 cents
>each, is that X-rays or EUV will kick electrons up into the conduction
>band  and lower the dark resistance by orders of magnitude.

Hey, I'll give it a try tomorrow and report back.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 18:28:54 2001
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From: John Schnurer 
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	Dear John Berry......and vo.,


	My "pancake detector" is a pie shaped device... instead of a
rolling pin shaped device.  This pancake shape allows a wide surface and
the initial ionizing particle and its subsequent Townsend Effect particle
avalance does not have far to go before the next conductor comes into
play.

	Pancake coils are something else.

		Both a VERY COOL!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 18:38:37 2001
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 20:16:25 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: Mallove/Hoagland radio program
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I just finished listening to the Hoagland, Mallove interview
>
>
>aha, the Masonic conspiracy to suppress cold fusion will be revealed!

Yup, I just heard Hoagland say that someone had told him that certain 
areas of technology would not be allowed to develop. We've all 
noticed Dr. Park's bashing of new technology, he was referred to as a 
politician, but who agenda is he promoting?

>
>he was a
>disciple of Aleister Crowley and ran the SoCal branch of Crowley's

That's Alister Crowley, worshiper of Lucifer

>Ordus Templis Orientis (Order of the Eastern Temple), sort of a
>pre-hippie commune/secret society that practiced free-love and sex magick.
>
>Parsons was also involved with the LA science fiction writers,
>counting Robert Heinlein and Jack Williamson among his friends.
>L. Ron Hubbard

>Just look the evil that grew out that crowd's writings



>   Parsons died
>at the age of 37, killed in a mysterious explosion in his garage/laboratory.

I've heard this story before, I just realized who Jack Parson's was

>
>I used to think that Hoagland's talk of dark forces and secret
>societies inside of NASA was a bunch of BS, but after reading this book,
>I have to wonder if maybe there is some basis to his charges...

The correlations of star position, longitudinal location on the 
planets, and suppression of findings, which would have increased 
NASA's funding don't happen by accident. I love it, Hoagland's 
observations exactly fit with two of my favorite paradigms, the 
Luciferian Conspiracy Paradigm and the Biblical Paradigm


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 19:53:40 2001
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From: "Meckanic" 
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thomas,

re. Crowley....

thomas malloy wrote:

> I just finished listening to the Hoagland, Mallove interview
> >
> >
> >aha, the Masonic conspiracy to suppress cold fusion will be revealed!
>
> Yup, I just heard Hoagland say that someone had told him that certain
> areas of technology would not be allowed to develop. We've all
> noticed Dr. Park's bashing of new technology, he was referred to as a
> politician, but who agenda is he promoting?
>
> >
> >he was a
> >disciple of Aleister Crowley and ran the SoCal branch of Crowley's
>
> That's Alister Crowley, worshiper of Lucifer

Alister Crowley was quite the presto strango....he actually had Black Mass
performed at his funeral. Yes he was a worshipper of the dark side. He and
MacGregor Mathers started the Order of the Golden Dawn, an offshot of I believe
the Illuminati. Mathers wrote the Sacred Squares of Abremalin the Mage. Crowley
apart from writing Magik in Theory and Practice also worked with I believe D.H.
Lawrence on the conversion of ancient semetic scripts known as the Keys of
Solomon of which there are 5 books (also known as the Grande Grimore or the
Grimore of Solomon), the Altia, Theurgia Altia, Lamentia, Lamentia Altia and the
Geotia (the Geotia contained all of the signatures of the 72 Guardians of the
Guf). I know, I used to own them and sold them foolishly when I was quite young,
right now they are worth about a half a million dollars. Interestingly, I have
heard...let's call them shaded rumours, from someone well placed inside the
Masons, that the Keys of Solomon set are one of the 'corner stones' of that group
along with the Book of Enoch. Try and find original copies anywhere...if you can
;-) If this is true, what a tangled web they weave.

Where the hell's a Templer Knight when ya need one....lol

As far as Hoagland goes, I like his math, it's interesting. But then considering
infinite probabilities for the construction of any mathematical structure or
situation renders all structures and situations possible. Of course all with
non-zero probabilities ;-) Remember the face on mars and Cydonia (made a not half
bad movie actually...lol).

Regards,

Steve
aka Meckanic™
ICQ# 4569541
AIM: xMeckanicx
URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic
*if you love something, set it free...if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and
kill it*


>
>
> >Ordus Templis Orientis (Order of the Eastern Temple), sort of a
> >pre-hippie commune/secret society that practiced free-love and sex magick.
> >
> >Parsons was also involved with the LA science fiction writers,
> >counting Robert Heinlein and Jack Williamson among his friends.
> >L. Ron Hubbard
>
> >Just look the evil that grew out that crowd's writings
>
> >   Parsons died
> >at the age of 37, killed in a mysterious explosion in his garage/laboratory.
>
> I've heard this story before, I just realized who Jack Parson's was
>
> >
> >I used to think that Hoagland's talk of dark forces and secret
> >societies inside of NASA was a bunch of BS, but after reading this book,
> >I have to wonder if maybe there is some basis to his charges...
>
> The correlations of star position, longitudinal location on the
> planets, and suppression of findings, which would have increased
> NASA's funding don't happen by accident. I love it, Hoagland's
> observations exactly fit with two of my favorite paradigms, the
> Luciferian Conspiracy Paradigm and the Biblical Paradigm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 19:55:58 2001
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My mind was wandering when I wrote that.

I meant pancake geiger tubes.

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear John Berry......and vo.,
>
>         My "pancake detector" is a pie shaped device... instead of a
> rolling pin shaped device.  This pancake shape allows a wide surface and
> the initial ionizing particle and its subsequent Townsend Effect particle
> avalance does not have far to go before the next conductor comes into
> play.
>
>         Pancake coils are something else.
>
>                 Both a VERY COOL!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 21:26:02 2001
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Subject: Re: Mallove/Hoagland radio program
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At 9:16 PM -0500 1/21/01, thomas malloy wrote:
>That's Alister Crowley, worshiper of Lucifer

Jones Beene sent me this link to a review of the book from Salon magazine,

http://www.salonmag.com/tech/books/2000/02/15/parsons/

the reviewer mentions in passing that Crowley is on the cover of
the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's album, he's the little bald guy near the
upper left corner...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 21:40:29 2001
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 23:45:18 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: AG affecting FM radio reception
In-Reply-To: 
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At 11:54 PM 1/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
>>I do not know directly of this speech but it is simple enough.  If you 
>>change gravity you change the rate at which the FM (or any mode) tuner 
>>functions.  An increase of gravity will not change the frequency of the 
>>signal but will change the wave length and the tuning of the receiver 
>>within the field.
>
>
>Hum, I wonder is this might be a way to monitor gravity fluxiations.
<>

Good idea.  I think you could send a reference signal transmitting device 
into an aria that you suspect the G field is altered and measure the 
frequency form a distant point.  The reference oscillator will also be 
affected in the same way and the exiting signal will be altered.  This way 
you only have to use one transmitter and one receiver.

A transmitter at say 1GHz can have a frequency drift of less then 100Hz 
with only the use of a crystal.   An oven baked reference will be much more 
accurate and I suspect could show a drift of less then 0.1Hz...   A 
receiver with an oven baked reference could be used  to measure changes in 
G of a 10 billionth of the event threshold G.  The measurement would be 
logarithmic so you would likely read out on a scale in decibels.  dbG

Lets sit down and work out the details.



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 21 23:37:19 2001
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Subject: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com]
> Sent: 2001 January 22, Monday 12:45
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: AG affecting FM radio reception
>
>
> At 11:54 PM 1/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >>I do not know directly of this speech but it is simple enough.  If you
> >>change gravity you change the rate at which the FM (or any mode) tuner
> >>functions.  An increase of gravity will not change the frequency of the
> >>signal but will change the wave length and the tuning of the receiver
> >>within the field.
> >
> >
> >Hum, I wonder is this might be a way to monitor gravity fluxiations.
> <>
>
> Good idea.  I think you could send a reference signal transmitting device
> into an aria that you suspect the G field is altered and measure the
> frequency form a distant point.  The reference oscillator will also be
> affected in the same way and the exiting signal will be altered.
> This way
> you only have to use one transmitter and one receiver.

>x<

Actually, the frequency past the area of distortion
 would presumably recover to its original level,
 but there would be a phase shift affecting signals
 transiting any g-altered region.

If we thought g-waves were being emitted by,
 for instance, the sun,
 we could monitor signals from a distant location
 at two distant places, one of which would have
 a line-of-sight raypath substantially closer
 to the edge of the sun.
Any g-wave emitted by the sun would then cause
 a momentary phase shift
 in one signal relative to the other,

[Assuming the G-wave
  moves at a finite velocity...
  (...and has a significant wavelength...)]

Also assuming, of course, the strength of the
 G-wave would be large enough for us to detect,
 not to mention the assumption that the sun
 would ever emit a G-Wave... ... ...

... sleep ...


>x<

> Lets sit down and work out the details.
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 06:42:04 2001
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From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
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At 02:35 PM 1/22/01 +0700, you wrote:

> >
> > Good idea.  I think you could send a reference signal transmitting device
> > into an aria that you suspect the G field is altered and measure the
> > frequency form a distant point.  The reference oscillator will also be
> > affected in the same way and the exiting signal will be altered.
> > This way
> > you only have to use one transmitter and one receiver.
>
> >x<
>
>Actually, the frequency past the area of distortion
>  would presumably recover to its original level,

Correct.   It is the effected original that you would measure.  If you 
generate the original signal within the distortion.  Lest say a higher 
level of G.   The signal would be processed slower and therefore the 
measured signal outside of the distortion would be slower.

We could test this by placing one device at ground level and the other on 
top of a tower.  There should be a slight drift.   However...   That amount 
of drift may not be measurable,  or at least may take quite some time to 
add up a usable difference.   This type of measurement would be a relative 
measurement.    Again I refer to a possible standard scale of dbG.

But I see that someone else has already ben here..
http://einstein.stanford.edu/

>  but there would be a phase shift affecting signals
>  transiting any g-altered region.

In this case you could use a phase shift if you sent the signal  through a 
short delay line (Temporal probe) at the end of a cable and measured the 
phase of the return "echo"  using an open or shorted end to the cable will 
provide a standing wave and depending on the frequency and the length of 
the probe you could look very close at the actual level of 
distortion.  This also would allow you to measure signal content on G by 
monitoring the differential phase.   A 1GHz reference and a PSK type 
receiver could give you a measurement bandwidth approaching 300MhZ


>If we thought g-waves were being emitted by,
>  for instance, the sun,
>  we could monitor signals from a distant location
>  at two distant places, one of which would have
>  a line-of-sight raypath substantially closer
>  to the edge of the sun.
>Any g-wave emitted by the sun would then cause
>  a momentary phase shift
>  in one signal relative to the other,
>
>[Assuming the G-wave
>   moves at a finite velocity...
>   (...and has a significant wavelength...)]
>
>Also assuming, of course, the strength of the
>  G-wave would be large enough for us to detect,
>  not to mention the assumption that the sun
>  would ever emit a G-Wave... ... ...
>
>... sleep ...
>
>
> >x<
>
> > Lets sit down and work out the details.
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 08:59:34 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Galapagos oil spill
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Another energy-related environmental disaster!

- Jed


http://www.thetimes.co.uk

15:57 MONDAY JANUARY 22 2001

Galapagos spill threatens rare species

The spillage of more than 150,000 gallons of diesel oil from an Ecuadorean 
tanker near the Galapagos Islands is a "catastrophe", the environmentalist 
David Bellamy said today.

The spill, covering some 186 square miles, is threatening the ecosystem of 
the islands, 600 miles off the west coast of Ecuador, which are famous for 
their giant tortoises and rare species of birds and plants.

Charles Darwin developed his theory of evolution while studying wildlife on 
the islands.

Floating nets and barriers have been installed to control the spill, but 
there are fears that the fuel could sink to the ocean floor, destroying 
algae, a vital key in the food chain, threatening marine iguanas, 
blue-footed boobies, masked boobies and seagulls, as well as sharks and 
lobsters. . . .

. . . Ninety per cent of the reptiles, 46 percent of the insects and about 
half the birds on the Galapagos are unique to the island chain.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 09:25:59 2001
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Subject: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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"The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating 
plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." 
-- Pres. G. W. Bush, Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001

I agree. The law of supply and demand is also a major factor. - JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 09:53:46 2001
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In a message dated 1/22/01 9:24:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:


> The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating 
> plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." 
> -- Pres. G. W. Bush, Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001
> 
> I agree. The law of supply and demand is also a major factor. - JR
> 
> 

Hi Jed,

       I guess the major problem sort of fits supply and demand but there is 
also another category, political stupidity.  You know, of course, that the 
state legeslature made the major power companies sell off their generaing 
systems, then deregulated the wholesale cost of kwhs while keeping the price 
controls on retail power. As a result, P.G. and E. pays $ 0.27 per kwh and is 
forced to sell it for $0.07.  They are now several billion in debt, can't pay 
their suppliers and are on a cash basis.  We need more government.  

Bob Briggs

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In a message dated 1/22/01 9:24:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, 

jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:





The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating 

plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." 

-- Pres. G. W. Bush, Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001



I agree. The law of supply and demand is also a major factor. - JR







Hi Jed,



       I guess the major problem sort of fits supply and demand but there is 

also another category, political stupidity.  You know, of course, that the 

state legeslature made the major power companies sell off their generaing 

systems, then deregulated the wholesale cost of kwhs while keeping the price 

controls on retail power. As a result, P.G. and E. pays $ 0.27 per kwh and is 

forced to sell it for $0.07.  They are now several billion in debt, can't pay 

their suppliers and are on a cash basis.  We need more government.  



Bob Briggs

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 10:40:43 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:33:24 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>You know, of course, that the
>state legeslature made the major power companies sell off their generaing
>systems, then deregulated the wholesale cost of kwhs while keeping the price
>controls on retail power. As a result, P.G. and E. pays $ 0.27 per kwh and is
>forced to sell it for $0.07.

I think the expectation was that deregulation would make the price fall, 
not quadruple. That was a reasonable expectation, but unfortunately other 
factors drove up the price just as deregulation occurred. The price of 
natural gas has shot up, and I believe that is because so many new natural 
gas electric generators are coming on line. It is an ideal low-pollution, 
high efficiency fuel.

Everyone knows that this situation is untenable. Frankly, I do not see how 
it could cost as much as $0.27 per KWH. Someone in the supply chain is 
price-gouging, and jacking up the price to unsupportable levels. That never 
lasts for long; the price will soon fall again. In the meanwhile, the near 
term solution is raise consumer costs, which will immediately cut 
consumption. Thirty years ago economists said that energy consumption is 
inflexible, and a dollar of GNP is inexorably tied to a certain level of 
energy consumption. That was wrong. Soon after the rise of OPEC, energy 
consumption was "decoupled" from GNP growth. Today the newspapers say the 
"easy" steps to save energy have been taken. I don't know about California, 
but that is certainly not true in Georgia!

- Jed

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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:43:39 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:33:24 -0500, Jed Rothwell
 wrote:

>BriggsRO aol.com wrote:
>
>>You know, of course, that the
>>state legeslature made the major power companies sell off their generaing
>>systems, then deregulated the wholesale cost of kwhs while keeping the price
>>controls on retail power. As a result, P.G. and E. pays $ 0.27 per kwh and is
>>forced to sell it for $0.07.
>
>I think the expectation was that deregulation would make the price fall, 
>not quadruple. That was a reasonable expectation, but unfortunately other 
>factors drove up the price just as deregulation occurred. The price of 
>natural gas has shot up, and I believe that is because so many new natural 
>gas electric generators are coming on line. It is an ideal low-pollution, 
>high efficiency fuel.

The US production of natural gas peaked in 1979.  This was known (and
should have been known to the politicians) when the California
politicians foisted the partial deregulation on the power companies.
I can't see why anyone expected the price of power to fall. 

>Everyone knows that this situation is untenable. Frankly, I do not see how 
>it could cost as much as $0.27 per KWH. Someone in the supply chain is 
>price-gouging, and jacking up the price to unsupportable levels. 

If that's true, then they're in collusion with the elected officials
who sponsored and voted for the partial deregulation.

>That never 
>lasts for long; the price will soon fall again. In the meanwhile, the near 
>term solution is raise consumer costs, which will immediately cut 
>consumption. 

Yup.  IOW, the deregulation should be across the board.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

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Dean T. Miller wrote:

>The US production of natural gas peaked in 1979.  This was known (and
>should have been known to the politicians) when the California
>politicians foisted the partial deregulation on the power companies.
>I can't see why anyone expected the price of power to fall.

You cannot blame the politicians for the fact that the energy companies 
overbuilt natural gas generators! That's like blaming government when the 
office real estate market is overbuilt. Power company planners and managers 
are at fault.

We can expect the price of power to fall for the same reason the price of 
eggs, automobiles, hard disks and everything else falls: innovation. The 
people in California could tap wind power in their state and in Texas for 
all of the energy they could use at $0.06/KWH, and on a large scale it 
would probably drop to $0.04. (With cold fusion it would drop to something 
like $0.000000001)

Why shouldn't the cost of energy fall? It has been falling steadily since 
1700, along with all other commodities. There is nothing special about 
energy. Supplies are virtually unlimited. Energy is the most abundant 
resource in the solar system. There is no need to use polluting forms like 
coal and oil. They are obsolete, and should have been abolished decades 
ago. They would have been if corporations and governments had done their 
jobs. It has been one of the great failings of modern times, along with our 
mishandling of automobiles, the abuse of antibiotics, and the failure to 
eliminate tuberculoses and some other common infectious deceases when we 
had a chance.


 >Everyone knows that this situation is untenable. Frankly, I do not see how
> >it could cost as much as $0.27 per KWH. Someone in the supply chain is
> >price-gouging, and jacking up the price to unsupportable levels.
>
>If that's true, then they're in collusion with the elected officials
>who sponsored and voted for the partial deregulation.

Again, I do not see how the politicians can be blamed for price gouging. 
Anyway, in a free market, gouging never works for long. It ends up hurting 
the gougers.

The only mistake the politicians made was to place an upper limit on the 
end-user price of electricity. They should have realized that prices 
sometimes rise. That does not happen often, and in the long-term, prices 
always fall, so it was an understandable mistake. But it must be corrected 
quickly, or the power companies will go bankrupt.


>Yup.  IOW, the deregulation should be across the board.

Yes, but carefully done. Something as important and potentially destructive 
as large scale energy production cannot be left in the hands of 
unregulated, unlicensed, untrained people, or we will see a repetition of 
the Galapagos oil spill every day. We need a balance of regulation and free 
market forces.

- Jed

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 19 Jan 2001 08:49:40 -0600:
> [snip]
> >The Arata loading of Pd-black and the gas loading of Pd catalyst as shown by Case
> >do not involve any materials required by Mills.  In addition, the gas discharge
> >methods used by the Russians does not involve the necessary materials.  Granted
> >that the electrolytic method can contain a sufficient number of proposed
> >impurities to make a case.
>
> There's one I forgot to mention, hydrogen itself can act as a catalyst:
>
> 3 x H -> Hy + 2 x H+
>
> This is an exact match for energy, and H (or D) is always present. The only
> requirement being that it be in the atomic form, and that three such atoms
> come together concurrently. All CF experiments till now have involved
> materials which absorb hydrogen to some extent, and in which H exists in the
> atomic form (at least some of the time). Furthermore, some experiments
> appear to show that the diffusion (read movement) of H through the material
> is important. Such movement would ensure continual movement of the H,
> resulting in the necessary collisions.
>
> >Nevertheless, this seems to me to be a stretch -
> >trying to explain one unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. a fusion reaction) by another
> >unaccepted phenomenon (i.e. hydrinos).
>
> If the second were accepted, then a mechanism would exist for the first, so
> that it too would become accepted. IOW we are really only looking at one
> miracle, not two.
> >
> >Ed Storms
> BTW it the mechanism described above is valid, then one might expect *any*
> method that promoted H movement within the lattice to improve the CF output.
> E.g. heating the lattice to promote vibration - and lo and behold CF
> increases with temperature :).

This is an interesting idea.  However, if hydrinos are produced I would expect to see
an increase in pressure within a cell containing a recombiner.  According  to Mills,
hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce water.  In addition, as you and other
people have proposed, they would easily diffuse out of the cell.  Either action would
leave unreacted oxygen behind that would cause a pressure increase.  My cells are
sealed by an oil reservoir that puts oil on to or off of a balance as the pressure
changes.  I have never seen a pressure buildup while I was measuring excess energy.

Ed Storms

>
>
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 14:04:34 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:44:19 -0500 (EST)
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	Dear Vo.,


	If a variation in Gravity affected Radio reception then the
astronauts, the transmitters and recievers in any non Earth-bound
satellite and the like would all have to be re tuned.
	The communications with the shuttle would have to be constantly re
tuned as it left the gravity well.
	Often ideas, good and oddball ideas take the time to do a
little background investigation and common sense thinking .... this is not
always possible, but it is sometimes.

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Well you're right, Fred.

A CdS photocell, placed in a light-tight enclosure (pouch of black tape) 
exhibits a very high resistance...eventually.  I tested mine by exposing it 
to room light (~500 ohms) and then put it into the black tape 
enclosure.  The resistance gradually increased over a 5 minute period 
eventually exceeding 40 megohms, the limit of the particular DVM I was using.

When I shine an intense 17 keV x-ray source onto the cell (through the 
single layer of black tape), I can bring the resistance down from >40 
megohms into the mid-30's (megohms)!  So it DOES detect x-rays.

The problem is its sensitivity.  The flux of 17 keV x-rays comes from a ~25 
mCi Pu-238 source at point-blank range of ~ 5 mm.  When I do the same thing 
to my Inspector GM tube instrument, it absolutely paralyzes it with counts 
(the instrument produces an error alarm and flashes its maximum dose rate 
of 100 mR/hr)....yet the CdS photocell only sees this flux marginally well.

I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this 
certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of 
x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sat, 20 Jan 2001 09:09:52 -0800:
> [snip]
> >It would seem like having enough of the
> >exact-sized holes and keeping them stable and
> >filled would be the problem using bulk materials
> >over extended periods. With pd black, for
> [snip]
> A relatively straightforward method of producing the initial material, might
> be to start with carbonyl-nickel. When decomposed, this produces an
> extremely finely divided Ni powder. If this powder were then sintered into a
> porous block, it would contain a huge internal surface area, and also many
> small cavities. Actual cavity sizes could be varied by experimenting with
> temperature and pressure during the sintering process.
>
> When the right average cavity size is found, the block should heat rapidly
> when flushed with high pressure hydrogen gas.
>
> Because it is mostly a metal block, it should still conduct heat fairly
> well, so could easily be cooled by passing copper pipes filled with coolant
> through holes bored in the block.

This type of nickel has been used and is claimed to produce anomalous energy.
However, the effect in the Ni-H2O system seems to be very surface dependent.
Hence, the role of voids is unknown.  Voids in Pd apparently stop the reaction
because they allow the high D pressure to dissipate, thereby reducing the
necessary high D concentration.   This effect might also occur in the Ni-H2O
system.

Ed Storms

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: William Beaty 
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On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote:

> I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this 
> certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of 
> x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.

How about a phosphor?  For example, X-ray film used in hospitals has a
phosphor layer held against it to crank the sensitivity higher.  If
silicon (or CdS) is fairly transparent to x-rays, then a phosphor layer
would make a big difference.  I've heard that hospitals discard the
phosphor sheet when developing x-rays, so tons of the stuff must be
available if you knew who to ask.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                             SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                             http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
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Frederick
	Your ideas on x-ray detectors are good. The CdS should work better
then the Si since the absorbtivity of CdS is much greater then Si. A given
thickness will have much more signal. I have used several Si  diodes in
series to generate a signal on an oscilloscope to check the waveform of
x-ray tube systems. The Fermi level moves around in response to the
instantaneous x-ray signal. When I worked for GE I submitted a patent
application on the varing resistance type of x-ray detectors, typified by
the CdS. You could create a very fine spatial resolution with them by
vapor depositing the CdS similar to making integrated circuits.


Hank


On Sun, 21 Jan 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Scott,
> 
> These are the type of photoconductors (photocells) that Radioshack sells 
> for less than $3.00 for 5 units.
> 
>  http://www.clairex.com/?
> 
> Also www.photonicdetectors.com carries a variety of CdS photoconductors.
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 15:34:28 2001
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Subject: Graham Ennis on free energy, antigravity, CF, etc.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:23:38 -0400
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Guardian (UK) article on free enrgy, antigrav, cold fusion, etc.

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,426108,00.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 15:47:00 2001
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http://www.latimes.com/living/20010121/t000006346.html


Gene 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 15:50:54 2001
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Subject: NYT on Ginger
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http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/21/weekinreview/21HARM.html

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 15:54:01 2001
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Subject: More on Ginger -- Philly
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http://inq.philly.com:80/content/inquirer/2001/01/21/front_page/IT21.htm


Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 16:08:11 2001
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Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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January 22, 2,001

Vortex,

At first blush, I accepted the 'deregulation' botch job by both the state and
the private utilities who had promoted it, as 'exposed' by the regular press.
However, an editorial comment by a financial daily (IBD, not WSJ) dated Jan 22
(actually Jan 20th issue) made very valid points of the so-called 'energy
crisis'.
By the way, I live in Los Angeles which operates, from the beginning, a
municipally owned Water and Power department.  The City did not join the
deregulation debacle and continues to operate its own water and power setup.
We do not have any power shortages, but a surplus which is being sold to write
down public indebtedness quite a bit. There has even been talk of reducing
rates around 20%. What energy crisis?.
Back to the editorial. The headline reads: California's Recipe for Energy
Crisis: When demand Booms, Forget Supply (by David Isaac of IBD)
To paraphrase, it points out the warnings of buildup of projected power
demands since the 1970's by economic and scientific consultants to the state's
regulators, legislators, and utilities. The obvious was there for everyone to
recognize but action was lacking. Why?
1. The growth and activity of environmental groups to object and obstruct the
building of solid fossil fuel and nuclear power developments.
2. Instead, they espoused and convinced many of 'alternative' power's
desirability of wind and solar power developments to easily replace the
'environmentally unfriendly' power sources.
3. Even existing hydroelectric power were/are starting to be opposed as
environmental disasters.
4. Today, solar and wind power provided 1/10 of 1% of the states needs for
1999.
5. Nuclear power development were placed on moratorium by the state. And where
the few projects were ongoing to completion, it took around 17 years and a
600% jump in construction costs, thanks to the various 'green' groups. No
utility wants to repeat the process. In contrast, France has a ongoing nuclear
power development program that now provides about 70% of its needs and takes
about 5-6 years to complete a project.
6. The state 'powers that be', legislation, and enforcement have become
infused thoroughly with aggressive environmental  interest groups. The current
governor Davis was Gov. Jerry Brown's (environmentalist) Chief of Staff for
over 6 1/2 years.

This is not to say that protecting the environment is not desirable but at
what price and consequences?

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 17:35:19 2001
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:37:19 -0600:
[snip]
>This is an interesting idea.  However, if hydrinos are produced I would expect to see
>an increase in pressure within a cell containing a recombiner.  According  to Mills,
>hydrinos do not react with oxygen to produce water.  In addition, as you and other
>people have proposed, they would easily diffuse out of the cell.  Either action would
>leave unreacted oxygen behind that would cause a pressure increase.  My cells are
>sealed by an oil reservoir that puts oil on to or off of a balance as the pressure
>changes.  I have never seen a pressure buildup while I was measuring excess energy.
>
>Ed Storms
[snip]
You are correct, unless almost all deuterinos end up fusing, in which case
the excess oxygen would be almost exactly what you would expect from a pure
fusion reaction mechanism (as would the heat BTW).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 17:51:36 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 19:44:30 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: Test of electric propulsion
Cc: Larry Wharton 
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>  I had one of my daughters do a test for her science project of the
>electric powered flying wing with a design similar to that described
>by Jean-Louis Naudin at:
>
>http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/advprop.htm
>
>We used a supply of about 25,000 volts which was larger than the
>10,000 volts recommended in the website.  The device worked great.
>It generated a remarkable amount of thrust.  The design on the
>website calls for the wire in front of the wing to be charged
>negative.  The negative charge worked but the positive charge worked
>much better.  So I would say that the wire should be positive and the
>wing negative.
>   The definitive test was done by enclosing the device in plastic
>wrap.  On Jean-Louis' site it was claimed that the test still works
>when the device is enclosed in a plastic bag.  Then the ion wind
>would be trapped and it could not generate any thrust.  However in
>our test there was zero thrust generated when the wing was enclosed
>in plastic wrap.

***{Did you verify that you still had the full potential difference of
25,000 volts between the wing and the wire, when the wrap was used? (Even a
small electron flow from negative to positive along the plastic wrap could
kill the potential difference and invalidate the effect, at those voltages.
Even fingerprint oils on the inside surface of the plastic could produce a
sufficiently conductive pathway, I would think.) --MJ}***

The wing was suspended by a line hooked to ball
>bearing fishing line swivels.  Even though the drag from the swivels
>was very small the wrapped wing was unable to overcome it.  There
>were a few degrees of slack with much lower torque before the full
>resistance of the swivels was encountered and the wrapped wing would
>not even move through this region of reduced torque. The unwrapped
>wing with the wire positive rotated so fast that I was unable to
>count the revolutions on a video I took. I have pictures and the
>video and may put them out on a website.  I think I have a website
>service available but I have never used it.  I could send the
>documentation to Jean-Louis but I would guess that he would not be
>too pleased with the wrapped wing test results.

***{You imply that Jean-Louis' result was incorrect. However, how can that
be? His wing flew while inside plastic wrap, a result that utterly refutes
the "ion wind" explanation, as far as I can see. The error, therefore,
almost certainly lies on your side, with the likely explanation being that
25,000 volts was so high a potential difference that a current path was
found along the plastic wrap, as I suggested above. --MJ}***

>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

________________
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--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 18:04:55 2001
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 22 Jan 2001 14:44:26 -0600:
[snip]
>This type of nickel has been used and is claimed to produce anomalous energy.
>However, the effect in the Ni-H2O system seems to be very surface dependent.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of H2 gas rather than
electrolysis. Water molecules in the cavities would just get in the way. I
suppose this too would depend on whether or not there was a passage from the
surface to the interior.

>Hence, the role of voids is unknown.  Voids in Pd apparently stop the reaction
>because they allow the high D pressure to dissipate, thereby reducing the
>necessary high D concentration.   

This problem seems to have been "worked around" by Arata with his hollow
cathode. This seems to imply that voids are only a problem with Pd when they
provide a passage to the surface. Purely internal voids OTOH could prove
beneficial, especially if they were only slightly larger than the required
minimum size in order to increase the density of the gas in the cavity (or
would the density be independent of cavity size?). Perhaps cavity size would
have more bearing on the average number of atoms in a cavity, and if too
small would reduce hydrino formation because the average number would be
less than three. I think however that if the cavity is too large then you
may end up with a population of H2 (D2) in the cavity, which would also just
get in the way. High temperatures would probably help too, as this would
ease the dissociation of any unwanted molecules that may form.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 18:10:38 2001
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From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: CdS x-ray detector
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>On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote:
>
>> I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this
>> certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of
>> x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.
>
>How about a phosphor?  For example, X-ray film used in hospitals has a
>phosphor layer held against it to crank the sensitivity higher.  If
>silicon (or CdS) is fairly transparent to x-rays, then a phosphor layer
>would make a big difference.  I've heard that hospitals discard the
>phosphor sheet when developing x-rays, so tons of the stuff must be
>available if you knew who to ask.

***{Rather than amplify the number of photons hitting the CdS photocell,
why not simply add a circuit to amplify the electrical output signal?
(E.g., use the CdS photocell to control the base of a transistor.) Or you
could combine the two ideas. Frankly, Fred's idea looks like a viable
approach to me. --MJ}***

>((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
>William J. Beaty                             SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
>billb eskimo.com                             http://www.amasci.com
>EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
>Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

________________
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--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 18:39:17 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 20:44:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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A short walk down memory lane takes me to a place where I remember Jerry 
Brown, Proposition 13 (Jarvis tax initiative),  and large chunks of freeway 
overpass standing un finished for 8 years.   More recently, governmental 
control of automobile liability insurance prices. and now this.

Fiscal stupidity has never been a stranger to leadership of the state of 
California.  And people constantly ask me why I moved to Texas.



At 12:45 PM 1/22/01 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/22/01 9:24:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:
>
>
>>The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating
>>plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants."
>>-- Pres. G. W. Bush, Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001
>>
>>I agree. The law of supply and demand is also a major factor. - JR
>
>
>Hi Jed,
>
>       I guess the major problem sort of fits supply and demand but there is
>also another category, political stupidity.  You know, of course, that the
>state legeslature made the major power companies sell off their generaing
>systems, then deregulated the wholesale cost of kwhs while keeping the price
>controls on retail power. As a result, P.G. and E. pays $ 0.27 per kwh and is
>forced to sell it for $0.07.  They are now several billion in debt, can't pay
>their suppliers and are on a cash basis.  We need more government.
>
>Bob Briggs


_________________________________________________________
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See:

http://www.newsdata.com/cem/pr011201.html

for up to date information on the power market in CA.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 19:20:32 2001
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What about putting the photocell in a bridge...
using a differential amplifier to detect small
changes.....steve opelc

Scott Little wrote:
> 
> Well you're right, Fred.
> 
> A CdS photocell, placed in a light-tight enclosure (pouch of black tape)
> exhibits a very high resistance...eventually.  I tested mine by exposing it
> to room light (~500 ohms) and then put it into the black tape
> enclosure.  The resistance gradually increased over a 5 minute period
> eventually exceeding 40 megohms, the limit of the particular DVM I was using.
> 
> When I shine an intense 17 keV x-ray source onto the cell (through the
> single layer of black tape), I can bring the resistance down from >40
> megohms into the mid-30's (megohms)!  So it DOES detect x-rays.
> 
> The problem is its sensitivity.  The flux of 17 keV x-rays comes from a ~25
> mCi Pu-238 source at point-blank range of ~ 5 mm.  When I do the same thing
> to my Inspector GM tube instrument, it absolutely paralyzes it with counts
> (the instrument produces an error alarm and flashes its maximum dose rate
> of 100 mR/hr)....yet the CdS photocell only sees this flux marginally well.
> 
> I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this
> certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of
> x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 19:20:53 2001
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>4. Today, solar and wind power provided 1/10 of 1% of the states needs for
>1999.

That can't be right. In 1997, wind alone was 1.5 of total electricity in
California, according to the state Energy Commission. See:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/wind/index.html

With more agressive implementation, wind could easy be 13% by now, as it is
in Denmark. See: http://www.windpower.dk/news/index.htm

Total 1999 sales in wind power were 4,000 MW (capacity), which was greater
than nuclear power for that year. (Nuclear power is dead in the U.S. but
very much alive elsewhere.)

- Jed

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Mitchell Jones 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: CdS x-ray detector

Thanks Scott,

I think that with a battery and a series resistor and an op-amp the 
sensitivity of CdS would be better than using film for x-ray/EUV detection
of radiation from an electrolysis cell cathode.

OTOH, Bill, a Zinc-CdS or ZnS-CdS mix is used as a phospor in cathode ray tubes.

Regards,   Frederick



> >On Mon, 22 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote:
> >
> >> I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this
> >> certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of
> >> x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.
> >
> >How about a phosphor?  For example, X-ray film used in hospitals has a
> >phosphor layer held against it to crank the sensitivity higher.  If
> >silicon (or CdS) is fairly transparent to x-rays, then a phosphor layer
> >would make a big difference.  I've heard that hospitals discard the
> >phosphor sheet when developing x-rays, so tons of the stuff must be
> >available if you knew who to ask.
> 
> ***{Rather than amplify the number of photons hitting the CdS photocell,
> why not simply add a circuit to amplify the electrical output signal?
> (E.g., use the CdS photocell to control the base of a transistor.) Or you
> could combine the two ideas. Frankly, Fred's idea looks like a viable
> approach to me. --MJ}***
> 
> >((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
> >William J. Beaty                             SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> >billb eskimo.com                             http://www.amasci.com
> >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
> >Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
> 
> "Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
> --Vaclav Havel
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 19:42:51 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
To: 
Subject: RE: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:39:58 +0700
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> From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
> Sent: 2001 January 23, Tuesday 04:44
> Subject: Re: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
>
> 	If a variation in Gravity affected Radio reception then the
> astronauts, the transmitters and recievers in any non Earth-bound
> satellite and the like would all have to be re tuned.
> 	The communications with the shuttle would have to be constantly re
> tuned as it left the gravity well.
> 	Often ideas, good and oddball ideas take the time to do a
> little background investigation and common sense thinking .... this is not
> always possible, but it is sometimes.

Actually, they do retune these things constantly,
 but for reasons that mostly do not arise from
 G-waves.

Bear in mind that what we are trying to detect is
 probably very difficult to resolve, at best.
Any retuning due to this is probably attributed to
 transients normally seen in electronics due to
 such things as thermal drift, weather (yes, they have
 weather in space, if you care to call it that),
 or any number of other events which we all
 see when we calibrate electronic equipment.

One thing we see quite commonly in geophysical
 exploration are spikes during underground detonations,
 most frequently due to static discharge across
 leaky equipment. Occasionally, however,
 I have seen spikes whose geometry
 does not fit the static discharge model.
I will see if I can get an example of this during
 my next project and post it so you can see what I
 am referring to.
(This just happens to be right up my occupational path)
Your "... ideas, good and oddball ideas ..."
 have just given me an idea of how to look for this.

cheers

Paul E. Anderson


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 20:21:56 2001
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Quite by coincidence I met Dr. David Love a Geologist/Professor
at New Mexico Tech a couple of years ago when his vehicle
broke down near my home while he was on his way to
a site in Chaco Canyon in Northwestern New Mexico.

We had a chance to chat and the subject of CF/LENR
came up and David got me the data on the Na:K ratio
in the Great Salt Lake so that I could compare it
with the anomalous Na:K ratio in the oceans that
suggest natural (Hydrino?) transmutation of
K to Calcium.

I was watching the PBS film "The West" and they 
discussed the romance and subsequent marriage of
one John Love and Ethyl Waxman, a school teacher
that taught at a Native American school around the turn of
the century. 

This was David Love's grandmother and grandfather and
the David Love (Geologist) they interviewed in the 
film is  Dr. David Love's  father.

A great film, too.

FJS


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 21:38:29 2001
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 00:34:34 EST
Subject: The Ideal Constitution for the Modern Age? Feedback Request!
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Dear Audience:

I have been working on the theory of the ideal structure of a constitution 
for the modern age. I have my results at the web site http://www.rhfweb.com 
(link 24). Such a constitution can be used to stop mind control. I have not 
been able to find any books on the theory of constitutions. I believe that 
the theory of constitutions depends on communications theory, semiotics and 
logic, sociology, economics, and ethics. Constitutions are also very similar 
to operating systems theory in computer science with the sharing of 
resources, delegation of priorities amongst processes requiring recourses.  I 
have been trying to utilize principles of the above theories to come up with 
a precise and specific set of laws, governmental structures,  policy making , 
regulations, and a bill of rights which numbers in the dozens of basic rights 
not included in the U.S. bill of rights.   Our modern age may require more 
basic rights since newer technologies can impinge on peoples rights more so 
and more quickly than in previous ages. I am also working on the ideal 
structure of an ideal city which incorporates the ideal constitution. I hope 
that such an ideal city or constitution could be used as an example for 
others to follow.  It seems strange that there are no text books on the 
theory of constitutions in general.  If you have any recommendations for the 
ideal structures of a constitution or a references to books which discuss 
such matters please send me an email.

Respectively:

President Thomas Clark
Radiation Health Foundation Inc.
Web page: www.rhfweb.com
Email: rhf rhfweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 22:06:45 2001
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Reply-To: 
From: "Keith Nagel" 
To: "Vortex" , "Freenrg-L" 
Cc: 
Subject: TT brown and petrovoltaics
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 01:08:09 -0500
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Hi All.

In the late 70's, TT brown did some experiments with Koolau Basalt
which he claimed showed an unexplainable voltage appearing
across copper electrodes painted on the surface of the sample.
This web site has most of the data, here's some test results
for this particular kind of rock.

http://www.soteria.com/brown/docs/epetro/test108.htm

Rick Monteverde has occasionally discussed this experiment on the lists,
as he has easy access to sample material and did some
preliminary experiments. He suggested I take a look, and
kindly furnished me with a sample to test.

The sample was disk shaped, 3.75" diameter and .25" thick.
Sample preparation consisted of cleaning the disk in hot water,
and drying it for several minutes in a microwave oven.

I had no copper paint available, but I do have silver
paint which I prefer for electrode use.
I painted 1" diameter electrodes in the center of the
disk, one on each side. I then clamped copper foil disks
over the top of the silver, and attached test equipment
to these copper disks.

The first test was to simply attach the sample to the
input of a Weston 440 galvanometer. This device is
a mechanical meter, and resolves current down to about
a microamp. No motion of the needle was noticed, when
the circuit was closed.

Next, I measured the open circuit voltage with a BK 391
multimeter, using the 200mV DC range. Voltage measured
was typically .25 mV, basically down to the bottom of
the units ability to measure voltage. The input impedence
of this meter is 10 megaOhms.

Finally, I made some measurements of the rocks electrical
characteristics. For this I used a GW LCR-814 LCR meter.
The unit works at 1KHz, so the following measurements
apply at that frequency.

R = 10 megaOhms
C = 34.5 pF

An air core capacitor of the same size measured about 1pF,
so the relative permittivity is about 30. 

Additionally, I gently heated the sample on a radiator until
it was warm to the touch, and again measured parameters.

R = 9 megaOhms
C = 44 pF

I'm inclined to think, from these measurements, that the Koolau
Basalt is a very lightly doped semiconductor. The fact that I
see no self generated voltage makes me wonder what TT Brown was
doing differently. The copper paint is one possibility. Perhaps
more important is the size of the sample, his were quite thick
and larger than mine.

Can someone who has had positive results can share their experiences?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 23:44:18 2001
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>Try and find original copies anywhere...if you can
>;-) If this is true, what a tangled web they weave.

I believe the quote continues..when first we set out to deceive. You 
have to understand that these peoples agenda is to control the world. 
You also need to realize that the Ever Living G_d of Israel has set 
his face against their plans and intends to cleanse his world of 
their sin. Remember too that all sin grows out of rebellion and that 
only by submitting ourselves to the will of God can we excape the 
cleansing fire that is promised.

>
>Where the hell's a Templer Knight when ya need one....lol


They're out there. You're a smart fellow and if your willing to pay 
the price, your soul, you can go far. Unfortunately their path leads 
to the edge of hell

>
>
>non-zero probabilities ;-) Remember the face on mars and Cydonia 
>(made a not half
>bad movie actually...lol).

I find the whole Cydonia story quite interesting. It looks to me like 
they deliberately reduced the resolution on the cameras to blur the 
image. Given the increase in funding which such a discovery would 
produce, one can only assume that they are protecting their agenda.


>
>Regards,
>
>Steve
>aka Meckanic™
>ICQ# 4569541
>AIM: xMeckanicx
>URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic
>*if you love something, set it free...if it doesn't come back, hunt 
>it down and
>kill it*


You may think that line is cute, but G_d is not amused

>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 22 23:58:02 2001
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:56:47 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde 
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Keith -

>The fact that I
>see no self generated voltage makes me wonder what TT Brown was
>doing differently.

Did you let it sit for a while and then just check the voltage with a 
momentary closure of the circuit?

I could mail you a bigger rock if you wanted to pursue this further.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 00:05:34 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:04:32 -0600
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Jed Rothwell worte

>"The California crunch really is the result of not enough 
>power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power 
>of generating plants." -- Pres. G. W. Bush, Interview with the New 
>York Times, Jan. 14, 2001
>
>I agree. The law of supply and demand is also a major factor. - JR

Any time the government limits what the retailer can charge for a 
product, shortages will result.

Austrain Economics

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 00:09:57 2001
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Date sent:      	Mon, 22 Jan 2001 18:23:38 -0400
From:           	"Eugene F. Mallove" 
To:             	"VORTEX" 
Subject:        	Graham Ennis on free energy, antigravity, CF, etc.

> Guardian (UK) article on free enrgy, antigrav, cold fusion, etc.
> 
> http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,426108,00.html

I attended the conference.  It was exhilerating!  See 
 for details of the agenda and those attending.  
There will be a complete report on the conference as soon as posssible.

John
> 


John Collins, author of:-
"Perpetual Motion:An Ancient Mystery Solved?"
URL http://www.free-energy.co.uk

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 00:59:56 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:58:00 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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Hi Jed,

On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 16:10:51 -0500, Jed Rothwell
 wrote:

>Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>>The US production of natural gas peaked in 1979.  This was known (and
>>should have been known to the politicians) when the California
>>politicians foisted the partial deregulation on the power companies.
>>I can't see why anyone expected the price of power to fall.
>
>You cannot blame the politicians for the fact that the energy companies 
>overbuilt natural gas generators! That's like blaming government when the 
>office real estate market is overbuilt. Power company planners and managers 
>are at fault.

Of course you can blame the politicians.  That's about the only kind
of generating plant that was being allowed by the lawmakers.  Coal and
oil fired plants were too polluting (requiring incredible expense for
exhaust processing).  Nukes were basically outlawed.  Wind generators
were fine, but there aren't that many sites in California with enough
wind (if they could only move North Dakota closer).

>We can expect the price of power to fall for the same reason the price of 
>eggs, automobiles, hard disks and everything else falls: innovation. The 
>people in California could tap wind power in their state and in Texas for 
>all of the energy they could use at $0.06/KWH, and on a large scale it 
>would probably drop to $0.04. (With cold fusion it would drop to something 
>like $0.000000001)

The major wind areas of the USA are in a corridor from North Dakota
down through parts of Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska and Iowa.
That is, there is enough area with high enough average wind speed for
economical wind generator use.  A few hundred thousand generators
could be placed there (there are only about 1,000 right now).  One
study projected that if wind generators were placed in 1/4 of North
Dakota, they could provide enough electricity for the entire USA.
(But that's more than a few hundred thousand generators.)

>Why shouldn't the cost of energy fall? It has been falling steadily since 
>1700, along with all other commodities. There is nothing special about 
>energy. Supplies are virtually unlimited. Energy is the most abundant 
>resource in the solar system. There is no need to use polluting forms like 
>coal and oil. They are obsolete, and should have been abolished decades 
>ago. 

The problem we have with energy is storage and shipping.  I agree that
there's plenty of energy available, but getting the energy to the
places where we'd like to use it is the problem.  

Right under our feet there's plenty of energy.  But getting to it is a
little problem (15 mile deep holes, etc.)  In most cases, the energy
needed to get to the energy is greater than we'd receive.

>Again, I do not see how the politicians can be blamed for price gouging. 
>Anyway, in a free market, gouging never works for long. It ends up hurting 
>the gougers.

It is.  Along the way, it hurts a bunch of other people, too.

>>Yup.  IOW, the deregulation should be across the board.
>
>Yes, but carefully done. Something as important and potentially destructive 
>as large scale energy production cannot be left in the hands of 
>unregulated, unlicensed, untrained people, or we will see a repetition of 
>the Galapagos oil spill every day. We need a balance of regulation and free 
>market forces.

I agree that lots of things cannot be left in the hands of untrained,
etc. people.  But that's what happens every time politicians attempt
to regulate something -- such as medicine (antibiotic overuse).  I'm
all for industry sponsored regulation or certification -- but nothing
enforced by laws.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 04:23:01 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: CdS Photoconductors as Electrolysis Cell Cathodes
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The resin-coated cells or hermetically sealed CdS can windows could be coated
with the electrolysis cell cathode materials and used as cathodes, which
would make a close-coupled sensor to look for x-rays and/or EUV
radiation.

Regards,  Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 05:07:37 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:00:20 -0800
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Hank Scudder wrote:
>
>When I worked for GE I submitted a patent  application on the varying 
>resistance type of x-ray detectors, typified by the CdS.
>
Thanks for the info Hank. 

Was this directed toward using these to convert x-ray imaging
to CRT/motion monitoring of x-rays and CAT Scan, Hank?

It was encouraging that Scott detected 17 Kev x-rays through
the electrical tape mask.

Regards,    Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 06:28:33 2001
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Possible instrument design:
 >
 >Actually, they do retune these things constantly,
 >  but for reasons that mostly do not arise from
 >  G-waves.
 >
 >Bear in mind that what we are trying to detect is
 >  probably very difficult to resolve, at best.
 >Any retuning due to this is probably attributed to
 >  transients normally seen in electronics due to
 >  such things as thermal drift, weather (yes, they have
 >  weather in space, if you care to call it that),
 >  or any number of other events which we all

The re-tuning of reference equipment is always necessary, and no instrument 
is ever 100% correct.  This is why I have suggested the PSK type echo 
receiver.  You send your signal into the distortion through a fixed length 
of cable and compare the returning phase to the outgoing standard (the 
frequency will be the same).  Using a high frequency it will be like 
looking at small time lags under a microscope.

Basing the measurement on the phase shift (relative) takes the emphasis off 
of the accuracy of the reference oscillator and places it on the conditions 
at the delay line "probe" (also relative)  finally the suggestion of a 
standard of measurement in dBG (or if someone could suggest a unit of 
temporal distortion) is a relative measurement.

The idea is that you would be able to determine if the "apparent" G 
distortion (perhaps generated by some EM electrogravitic device) is an 
actual G distortion based on the temporal side effect or something else.
Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 06:41:03 2001
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I'll buy one if you'll try one, Scott.

Note TO-5 package.

 http://www.calsensors.com/detectors/pbsnc.htm

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 07:16:29 2001
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At 07:36 AM 1/23/01 -0800, Fred wrote:

>I'll buy one if you'll try one, Scott.
>
>Note TO-5 package.
>
>  http://www.calsensors.com/detectors/pbsnc.htm

OK, sure....but PbS is designed to be an IR detector, why do you think 
it'll be good for x-rays?

Also, I agree that the off-the-shelf CdS is better than film.  I can get a 
noticeable response in a second or less and I'm pretty sure believe that it 
would take longer, maybe 10x longer or more, for the same flux to make a 
detectable exposure of photographic film.

Sure we could amplify this CdS signal and make it somewhat more sensitive 
but the fact remains that the same flux that paralyzes a GM tube with 
counts produces only a very small response in the CdS.  It is intrinsically 
many orders of magnitude less sensitive.

I might try a few more off-the-shelf ideas today if time permits.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 07:35:11 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Dean T. Miller wrote:

         Of course you can blame the politicians. [Natural gas is] about
         the only kind  of generating plant that was being allowed by the
         lawmakers. Coal and  oil fired plants were too polluting
         (requiring incredible expense for  exhaust processing).

I think they should have been outlawed back in the 1950s when steam 
locomotives went out of style. If we must use coal, it should be gasified 
and run through turbines.


         Nukes were basically outlawed. Wind generators  were fine, but
         there aren't that many sites in California with enough  wind (if
         they could only move North Dakota closer).

I believe there were still many good wind sites in California, and much of 
the first generation wind turbine equipment in prime sites is due to be 
replaced. The newer windmills are far cheaper and much larger. They are 
also quieter and and the blades turn slower, and are thus no threat to 
wildlife. I do not think that local wind energy could supply all of 
California's electricity. But if it supplied 10% today, at 4 to 6 cents per 
kilowatt-hour, there would be no crisis. (That is how much wind power now 
costs, according to EPRI, and the Danish windpower producer's association, 
which supplies about half of world demand.)

California's peak energy demand is 46,000 MW, according to the New York 
Times, January 22, and the California Independent System Operator. World 
production of wind power is 4,000 MW per year, costing roughly $2 billion. 
Building projects now underway in California will supply 6,723 megawatts 
when complete. If California purchased one-half of world wind power 
equipment produced per year for five years, it would cost $5 billion and 
produce 5,000 MW, 11% of California's present peak demand. The electricity 
would be five times cheaper than California's present average cost, and ~20 
percent cheaper than the national average. Why this is not being done, I 
cannot imagine. Establishment columnists and Washington experts say that 
California needs to build large centralized fossil fuel plants in a big 
hurry, and they dismiss things like wind power as unrealistic, but the 
facts and figures I quoted above come from staid, mainstream, credible 
organizations like EPRI.


         The major wind areas of the USA are in a corridor from North
         Dakota  down through parts of Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska
         and Iowa.  That is, there is enough area with high enough
         average wind speed for  economical wind generator use. A few
         hundred thousand generators  could be placed there (there are
         only about 1,000 right now). One  study projected that if wind
         generators were placed in 1/4 of North  Dakota, they could
         provide enough electricity for the entire USA.

I read that there is quite a bit of wind in parts of Texas as well, which 
is where much of the fossil fuel distribution network terminates. I do not 
think it would be economical or practical to ship electricity from the 
Dakotas to the West Coast, but studies by EPRI and NREL indicate that the 
wind or solar electricity generated in Texas could be used to produce 
hydrogen which is then shipped via the pipes now used for natural gas, and 
used in combustion plants initially and later large and small scale fuel 
cell plants. This would not the economically competitive with combustion 
plants, but with fuel cells it would be competitive and possibly a little 
cheaper than natural gas combustion turbines, because fuel cells are 
efficient and pure hydrogen does not have to be reformulated for them, the 
way natural gas and gasoline must be.

The biggest technical stumbling block may be that pipelines designed for 
natural gas may leak hydrogen. They may have to be relined on the inside. I 
think I read that relining technology has already been developed for use 
with conventional gas.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 07:35:30 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:33:41 -0500
To: "Robert Park" , vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Jan 19, 2001]
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Robert Park writes:

	Geesh.. Epidemiology is not biology.

But the causes of disease are biological, and even when the mechanism is 
not understood, statistical correlation is accepted as proof that cigarette 
smoking causes cancer, for example. Naturalists know that some species of 
coral simultaneously release eggs on the same night over a vast area, even 
though no one can imagine how they coordinate, or what marker they are 
attuned to, temperature, moon or tide. It works this way in experimental 
physics. The researchers at the Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi 
Heavy Industries know that every cold fusion experiment they have run in 
the last five years has produced massive excess heat, transmutations, gamma 
rays and other nuclear effects, so they are quite sure cold fusion is 
nuclear and not chemical, even though they do not understand the mechanism.


	The problem is confounding factors, which give you correlation
	without cause and effect. Fact: Thin people suffer premature death
	at a much higher rate than fat people.

This is an extraordinary claim, but I will settle for ordinary proof. Where 
did this"fact" come from? Can you please cite a study or paper backing up 
this assertion, preferably something published on-line. How thin are we 
talking, and how fat? Perhaps this weird assertion means that people who 
die are generally thin.


      You must think being fat is good for you.

Well if this "fact" is true, and thin people really do "suffer premature 
death at a much higher rate than fat people," then obviously being fat must 
be good for you. However, the statement is probably incorrect, or it is a 
clever restatement of a special case -- sophistry, not science. Until I see 
the paper or data this statement is based upon I cannot judge what it 
means, and I am not about to think that fat is good for you.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 08:03:22 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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I said and NatSpeak wrote:

>I believe there were still many good wind sites in California . . .

That's supposed to be, "are still many . . ." I am sure there are. I will 
grant that large wind installations are ugly, but not as ugly as air 
pollution or poor people looking at electric bills at 27 cents/KWH.

There is also a lot of sunlight going to waste in the Mohave Desert. 
Developing a new generation of Luz-style solar energy plants would cost 
billions, but so will electricity at 27 cents. Unlimited supplies of energy 
are available, but not from obsolete sources such as gas, coal, and whale oil.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 08:25:57 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:21:08 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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>At 07:36 AM 1/23/01 -0800, Fred wrote:
>
>>I'll buy one if you'll try one, Scott.
>>
>>Note TO-5 package.
>>
>>  http://www.calsensors.com/detectors/pbsnc.htm
>
>OK, sure....but PbS is designed to be an IR detector, why do you think
>it'll be good for x-rays?
>
>Also, I agree that the off-the-shelf CdS is better than film.  I can get a
>noticeable response in a second or less and I'm pretty sure believe that it
>would take longer, maybe 10x longer or more, for the same flux to make a
>detectable exposure of photographic film.
>
>Sure we could amplify this CdS signal and make it somewhat more sensitive
>but the fact remains that the same flux that paralyzes a GM tube with
>counts produces only a very small response in the CdS.  It is intrinsically
>many orders of magnitude less sensitive.

***{That may be, but from an outsider's perspective it also seems possible
that you are comparing apples to oranges. If, for example, your Geiger
counter contains built-in amplifier circuitry--very likely--then the
appearance of greater sensitivity may be due to that fact alone--which
means: if you were to add amplifier circuitry to a CdS photocell, and
perhaps amplify the incoming photon signal using phospor as per Bill's
suggestion, you might find that it was just as "paralyzed" by your signal
as is your Geiger counter.

Bottom line: based on the information you have supplied thus far, I see no
basis for comparing the sensitivity of the two types of device. In fact, it
may well be that a gadget based on Fred's idea, with appropriate support
circuitry, would be intrinsically superior to the traditional approach.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>I might try a few more off-the-shelf ideas today if time permits.
>
>
>
>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

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In a message dated 1/22/01 1:15:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:


> You cannot blame the politicians for the fact that the energy companies 
> overbuilt natural gas generators! That's like blaming government when the 
> office real estate market is overbuilt. Power company planners and managers 
> are at fault.
> 
> 

Jed,

The energy companies have not overbuilt gas powered generators, they have not 
built any power generation facilities in California for a couple of decades. 
Too much NIMBY.  I agree that at any given time, the prices of energy should 
be expected to drop over the long term, but there are wide, stochastic 
variations on any unregulated commodity prices.  The kicker here was the OPEC 
action on oil prices.  Normally, businesses protect themselves by hedging 
with long term contracts, but the California legislature, simultaneous with 
deregulating wholesale prices, made it illegal for power companies to 
contract for electricity more than 24 hours ahead.  This was a guaranteed 
train wreck. 

I concur that the California power companies are also to blame for going 
along with this absurdity, but they have not had real managers since the 
State P.U.C. started micromanaging them and guaranteeing their profit during 
the early part of the 20th century.  They have not needed them.  It will take 
quite a while for these companies to learn how to manage themselves if they 
do survive this wreck and have a chance to do so.

Here's to more government.

Bob  



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In a message dated 1/22/01 1:15:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, 

jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:





You cannot blame the politicians for the fact that the energy companies 

overbuilt natural gas generators! That's like blaming government when the 

office real estate market is overbuilt. Power company planners and managers 

are at fault.







Jed,



The energy companies have not overbuilt gas powered generators, they have not 

built any power generation facilities in California for a couple of decades. 

Too much NIMBY.  I agree that at any given time, the prices of energy should 

be expected to drop over the long term, but there are wide, stochastic 

variations on any unregulated commodity prices.  The kicker here was the OPEC 

action on oil prices.  Normally, businesses protect themselves by hedging 

with long term contracts, but the California legislature, simultaneous with 

deregulating wholesale prices, made it illegal for power companies to 

contract for electricity more than 24 hours ahead.  This was a guaranteed 

train wreck. 



I concur that the California power companies are also to blame for going 

along with this absurdity, but they have not had real managers since the 

State P.U.C. started micromanaging them and guaranteeing their profit during 

the early part of the 20th century.  They have not needed them.  It will take 

quite a while for these companies to learn how to manage themselves if they 

do survive this wreck and have a chance to do so.



Here's to more government.



Bob  





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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 09:01:22 2001
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From: "Tz'Akh" 
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" 
Subject: RE: ORMUS  (cont'd)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:55:22 -0500
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my apologies to anyone that was waiting on this thread, things have been
very busy around here, but i'm doing my best to keep on things.  in the
meantime, i'll post this link

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/tw/overview.htm

it will serve as a good central node for the information that i have on
ORMUS. m uch of the rest involves reports from individuals working with the
ORMUS elements; tales of puddles following people around, small pulsating
'proto-life' forming under the microscope, and old chipped teeth regrowing.

i'm not sure about spin-states and other deep info that thomas asked for,
perhaps you could ask in a cleared manner that i can easier understand.
i've never looked at the ORME's that close, i've just been privvy to info on
the larger effects on the human body and perceptual system at large.


well water is the way to do research with this stuff - if you're not use
water taht naturall flows out of the ground, or is at least pumped a short
way (as in well water) then you'll probably miss most of the magick of ORMUS
research



btw: can anyone send me some good information/site link/etc about the Joe
cell?  i'm still a little shaggy on it's details and i'd like to know more
from 'good' sources




thanks all.  and please: ask questions - it's the easiest way for me to
disseminate what i know about ORMUS elements and particularly water
-Tz

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy metro.lakes.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 2:49 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: Platinum Spanish Cannons?!! (read: ORMUS)
> 
> 
> >there's been some real interesting research that's come out 
> of working with
> >'ORME' water of late.  'ORME' may actually be a misnomer, 
> it's not yet been
> >if there's interested heads, i'll furnish some info.
> >-Tz'Akh
> As i have posted previously, I have an interest. My questions 
> are as follows:
> 
> how do you go from high spin state to regular state
> high spin angle compaired to what
> I have some URL's on ORMES, please post your, and If they are 
> different from mine, I'll share what I have.
> 
> 
> Thomas Malloy
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 09:37:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:11:49 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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Frederick Sparber wrote:
 
> I'll buy one if you'll try one, Scott.


Here's a post from another forum that might be
of interest:
Jim Lux wrote: "I just got a flyer from Advanced
Photonix
(http://www.advancedphotonix.com/) who make
large area avalanche photo detectors. They claim
that they can replace PMTs in a lot of
applications....

Of some additional interest is that the flyer
has an offer:

"Then send us your old PMT and we'll send you an
3mm uncooled LAAPD...." expires 2 March.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 09:57:42 2001
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BriggsRO aol.com wrote:

>The energy companies have not overbuilt gas powered generators, they have not
>built any power generation facilities in California for a couple of decades.

I meant energy companies world-wide, not only in California. There has been 
a huge simultaneous move toward using gas, although it should have been 
obvious that when everyone does that, supplies will run short.


>Too much NIMBY.

Not according to the New York Times:

"The sort of facile blaming of the lack of construction on California's 
environmental restrictions is misguided," said Professor Borenstein. 
"California does have serious environmental rules, as a lot of other states 
do. But the real reason investors didn't build plants in the 1990's is that 
for a long time, no one knew what the rules were going to be." . . .

. . . Since deregulation passed, California has approved the nine plants 
now under construction, compared with none in the prior decade, and 22 more 
are in the regulatory pipeline.

"The reputation of California being a Nimby state has been shattered," 
Steve Maviglio, Governor Davis's chief spokesman, said recently, referring 
to the "not in my back yard" reaction that prevented many plants from being 
approved in the past.

[End of quote]

I do not know whether California is more or less "nimby" than other states. 
I do know that California encourage the use of wind and solar energy early 
on, and paid a price for it. The first generation wind and solar 
installations were hugely uneconomical. If California had not encouraged 
them, and subsidized them, we would not have today's wind installations 
which cost 10 times less. They are the cheapest and cleanest source of 
energy yet invented. It has always been this way in technology. Someone had 
to pay for the first telegraph lines, the first steam ships, airplanes, 
automobiles, and computers which were all ridiculously uneconomical. 
Usually, the British Parliament or the U.S. Congress end up footing the 
bill, which is why England and U.S. have led in technology for the last 200 
years.

People are now blaming the California energy crisis on alternative energy 
such as like wind installations. Since wind represents only 1.5% of 
California's energy, I do not see how it could causing such high prices, 
even if the old, first-generation installations cost 50 cents/KWH (which 
they do not). As I said, modern wind installations cost 4 to 6 cents/KWH, 
depending mainly on the location and the distance from the consumer.


         Here's to more government.

Yes, big government has created or subsidized every major technology from 
steam ships, to railroads, to the Internet. Here's to it! Capitalists say 
they hate it, but they depend upon government more than anyone else in 
society, including welfare recipients. For the last 400 years in England 
and the U.S., government, industry, investors and capitalists have worked 
together in the most intimate & fruitful collaboration in history. Why the 
capitalists still complain about government after all the benefits they 
have received is beyond me. I myself have few complaints about a system 
that works so splendidly, and I would be very hesitant to change it. 
Countries with weak governments which do not play a leading role in 
developing technology are usually poor.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 10:07:05 2001
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Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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At 10:21 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:

 >Sure we could amplify this CdS signal and make it somewhat more sensitive
> >but the fact remains that the same flux that paralyzes a GM tube with
> >counts produces only a very small response in the CdS.  It is intrinsically
> >many orders of magnitude less sensitive.
>
>***{That may be, but from an outsider's perspective it also seems possible
>that you are comparing apples to oranges. If, for example, your Geiger
>counter contains built-in amplifier circuitry--very likely--then the
>appearance of greater sensitivity may be due to that fact alone--which
>means: if you were to add amplifier circuitry to a CdS photocell, and
>perhaps amplify the incoming photon signal using phospor as per Bill's
>suggestion, you might find that it was just as "paralyzed" by your signal
>as is your Geiger counter.
>
>Bottom line: based on the information you have supplied thus far, I see no
>basis for comparing the sensitivity of the two types of device. In fact, it
>may well be that a gadget based on Fred's idea, with appropriate support
>circuitry, would be intrinsically superior to the traditional approach.

OK, here's the basis.  The GM tube produces a pulse every time it detects 
an x-ray.  It's efficiency is up in the 10's of percent and is largely a 
function of the stopping power of the contained gas.  That is to say any 
x-ray that is absorbed in the contained gas produces a pulse.   There's no 
real need for an amplifier, except to make the pulses big enough to drive a 
speaker so you hear a click.  In other words, it's a "digital" detector, as 
opposed to an analog detector.

The Pu-238 source I've got puts out about 3E6 photons/sec per steradian 
and, at 5 mm spacing, that works out to about 1E7 photons/sec/cm^2.  Let's 
assume that both detectors are 1 cm^2 for now.  In one second, the GM tube 
(assume it's 10% efficient) gets 1E6 counts.  Background is maybe 1 
count/sec so the S/N ratio is 1 million to one with this flux.

The CdS detector's resistance changes from ~40 megohms to ~35 megohms under 
the same flux, a S/N ratio of 5/40 or about 0.1.

Therefore the GM tube achieves a S/N ratio that is about 10 million times 
better than the CdS detector.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 10:53:34 2001
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----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jones Beene 
  To: 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 9:11 AM
 Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
 

 > Here's a post from another forum that might be
 > of interest:
 > Jim Lux wrote: "I just got a flyer from Advanced
 > Photonix
 > (http://www.advancedphotonix.com/) who make
 > large area avalanche photo detectors. They claim
 > that they can replace PMTs in a lot of
 > applications....

But, a photomultiplier tube (PMT) is not a Geiger Muller (GM) tube.  :-)

Regards, Frederick
> 
 > Of some additional interest is that the flyer
 > has an offer:
 > 
 > "Then send us your old PMT and we'll send you an
 > 3mm uncooled LAAPD...." expires 2 March.
 > 
 > Jones
 > 
 > 
 

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Jan. 23, 2001

Vortex,

Jed's quote of 1.5(%?) of total electricity produced IN California by wind
power in 1997 and the quotation of 1/10 of 1% of the state needs (which
includes ALL electricity, both produced in the state and imported) for 1999
may, except for the differing years, be essentially talking about the same
thing.
Considering that no new 'conventional' major generating plants were built in
the last ten years, wind power installation would seem to take a ever larger
percentage of the total state capacity but does not begin to catch up to the
booming new economy and growing new demands.
The 1/10 of 1% figure comes from a Matthew Simmons, president of Houston based
Simmons & Co., an energy investment bank.
It seems California produces less power per resident than any other state. And
currently, it imports over one quarter of energy needs from places like Quebec,
Canada.
I made an an error in quoting the jumping cost of the nuclear plant
development. It was a 1,200% increase rather than the 600% quoted. What started
as a 500 million dollar project turned into a 6,000 million dollar black hole,
thanks to legal obstructionism. This was the Diablo Canyon project.
Aside from wind and solar, there is plenty of geothermal energy rumbling around
California. Then there are the lunar tides.
And on the national scene, if we can harness the wind power blowing out of D.C.
and all the state capitals, that would be something else. : )

-AK-

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> >4. Today, solar and wind power provided 1/10 of 1% of the states needs for
> >1999.
>
> That can't be right. In 1997, wind alone was 1.5 of total electricity in
> California, according to the state Energy Commission. See:

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Frederick Sparber wrote:
 
> But, a photomultiplier tube (PMT) is not a Geiger Muller (GM) tube.  :-)

Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of your initial post. I
assumed you were looking for a photoconductor replacement
for a GM tube?

Of course the PMT is not a GM - but IF the avalanche photo
detector will replace a PMT, which is very sensitive, then
it might also possible replace the GM and could be easily
covered with whatever fluorescence material you had in mind.

Jones

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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jones Beene 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector

Jones Beene wrote:


> 
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>  
> > But, a photomultiplier tube (PMT) is not a Geiger Muller (GM) tube.  :-)
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of your initial post. I
> assumed you were looking for a photoconductor replacement
> for a GM tube?

No you didn't misunderstand. I missed your point of using the
x-ray/EUV fluorescence of the photoconductor of the PMT
as the detector.  Sorry about that.
> 
> Of course the PMT is not a GM - but IF the avalanche photo
> detector will replace a PMT, which is very sensitive, then
> it might also possible replace the GM and could be easily
> covered with whatever fluorescence material you had in mind.

Right you are.

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> Jones
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 12:47:31 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>Jed's quote of 1.5(%?) of total electricity produced IN California by wind
>power in 1997 and the quotation of 1/10 of 1% of the state needs (which
>includes ALL electricity, both produced in the state and imported) for 1999
>may, except for the differing years, be essentially talking about the same
>thing.

That can't be. The numbers do not add up. First of all, that was not my 
quote, it was from state government commission. If they don't know, nobody 
does. Second, if wind power is 1.5% of in-state energy, but only 0.1% of 
total energy, that would mean California imports 93% of its electricity, 
which is physically impossible. There are not enough power lines. In point 
of fact, California usually exports electricity to the North in the 
wintertime (but not this year), so the 1.5% wind capacity is a little more 
than the in-state consumption total in January.


>Considering that no new 'conventional' major generating plants were built in
>the last ten years, wind power installation would seem to take a ever larger
>percentage of the total state capacity but does not begin to catch up to the
>booming new economy and growing new demands.

Wind power has not been expanding. It peaked in 1996 with 3,154 million 
kilowatt hours, and it has declined to 2,776 in 1998. It increased somewhat 
after that. Geothermal also peaked in 1994 at 15,500 and fell to 12,500. 
Imports were at an all time high in 1990, at 62,000. They have fallen to 
49,000. See:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/electricity/electricitygen.html


>The 1/10 of 1% figure comes from a Matthew Simmons, president of Houston based
>Simmons & Co., an energy investment bank.

He got it wrong. Every source I have seen agrees with the California 
government to within 10% or so.


>It seems California produces less power per resident than any other state.

I doubt that, given the hot climate in southern California, which requires 
intensive air conditioning, and the high per capita income. A state like 
New Hampshire or Wyoming will use less electric power and more gas and 
heating oil. California imports 18% of its power, which is not bad for a 
populous state next door to states with abundant hydro and fossil fuels. In 
any case, if California does produce less power, the load has been balanced 
until now without blackouts, so California consumption per dollar of GNP 
and per capita is low and conservation is high. That is  good. Any state in 
the union could cut power consumption drastically by investing moderate 
amounts of money in better lighting and heat pumps. This would pay back in 
a year or two, and put OPEC out of business. We do not do this because we 
are lazy, and because energy is so cheap it is not worth investing in ways 
to reduce consumption. We could put the Italian olive oil industry out of 
business by growing our own olives, but Italian oil is cheap and the 
quality is good, so why bother?


>  And
>currently, it imports over one quarter of energy needs from places like 
>Quebec,
>Canada.

No, only 18%, split evenly with the northwest and southeast.


>I made an an error in quoting the jumping cost of the nuclear plant
>development. It was a 1,200% increase rather than the 600% quoted. What 
>started
>as a 500 million dollar project turned into a 6,000 million dollar black hole,
>thanks to legal obstructionism. This was the Diablo Canyon project.

Legal obstructionism may have played a role, but inept engineering surely 
contributed. Other countries such as France and Japan have cheaper, more 
reliable, better conventional nuclear power plants. France and Japan are 
not know for a crystalline, efficient legal systems. Japan has the 
second-slowest judiciary in the world, after India. Cases often last 10 or 
20 years. Japan's breeder reactor program is a world-class fiasco costing 
billions of dollars, so their talent for building good nuclear plants is 
not national, but rather specific to some corporations and government 
agencies, and not others. In short, you can't generalize, and abilities 
change over time.


>Aside from wind and solar, there is plenty of geothermal energy rumbling 
>around
>California.

Yes indeed. You would think they would have expanded the use of geothermal 
during the past 10 years, since there are few environmental objections to 
it, but they didn't. That tells us it probably wasn't the environmentalists 
who were blocking development. They would have welcomed an expansion of a 
power source that reduces the need for fossil fuels.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 12:47:43 2001
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From: Terry Blanton 
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David Hudson actually holds some patents on monatomic elements.
You can see his lectures at:

http://www.transmutation.com/hudson1.htm

Hmmm, I though Champion was in jail.  I wonder who is maintaining
this web site?

Terry

From vortex-digest-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 13:00:15 2001
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David Hudson actually holds some patents on monatomic elements.
You can see his lectures at:

http://www.transmutation.com/hudson1.htm

Hmmm, I though Champion was in jail.  I wonder who is maintaining
this web site?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 13:08:00 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" 
To: 
Subject: Off Topic  -   spares
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:52:07 -0000
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0857E.598F2220
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Hi, does anyone know of anywhere I could obtain a cheap replacement =
screen for my Compaq laptop - I've managed to crack the screen and it's =
starting to get unusable. Here in the UK they are quoting about =A3450 =
for a 12.1inch TFT screen unit. As my laptop is about 4 years old and =
"only" has a Pentium 133 inside this does not make it economic to =
repair. I was hoping there may be a US warehouse which sells "old" spare =
parts? Any help would be much appreciated!
Nick Palmer

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0857E.598F2220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi, does anyone know of anywhere I =
could obtain a=20
cheap replacement screen for my Compaq laptop - I've managed to crack =
the screen=20
and it's starting to get unusable. Here in the UK they are quoting about =
=A3450=20
for a 12.1inch TFT screen unit. As my laptop is about 4 =
years old=20
and "only" has a Pentium 133 inside this does not make it economic to =
repair. I=20
was hoping there may be a US warehouse which sells "old" spare =
parts? Any=20
help would be much appreciated!


Nick Palmer


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0857E.598F2220--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 14:03:02 2001
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From: "Tz'Akh" 
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Subject: RE: ORMUS  (cont'd)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:42:12 -0500
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i don't knwo much about this, waht can you tell me?


-Z

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr bellsouth.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 3:26 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: ORMUS (cont'd)
> 
> 
> David Hudson actually holds some patents on monatomic elements.
> You can see his lectures at:
> 
> http://www.transmutation.com/hudson1.htm
> 
> Hmmm, I though Champion was in jail.  I wonder who is maintaining
> this web site?
> 
> Terry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 14:23:47 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 12:09:30 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde 
Subject: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
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Only a crackpot who believes in antigravity would believe in 
something as ridiculous as CF, says the Guardian:

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121127,00.html

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 14:36:24 2001
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Nick::

A co-worker of mine just gave up on finding a cable for the display on his 
Compaq.

If the display is the same and he has not thrown the thing away then maybe 
we could hook you up.

At 08:52 PM 1/23/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi, does anyone know of anywhere I could obtain a cheap replacement screen 
>for my Compaq laptop - I've managed to crack the screen and it's starting 
>to get unusable. Here in the UK they are quoting about £450 for a 12.1inch 
>TFT screen unit. As my laptop is about 4 years old and "only" has a 
>Pentium 133 inside this does not make it economic to repair. I was hoping 
>there may be a US warehouse which sells "old" spare parts? Any help would 
>be much appreciated!
>Nick Palmer

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 14:38:33 2001
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From: Dan Quickert 
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" 
Subject: RE: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 14:13:59 -0800
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On Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:58 AM, Akira Kawasaki  wrote, in part:
> What started as a 500 million dollar project turned
>into a 6,000 million dollar black hole, thanks to legal
>obstructionism. This was the Diablo Canyon project.

Good grief. I was going to stay out of this one, but just before we move it 
to Vortex-b (;-p

The Diablo Canyon plant's problems were based in PG&E's screwups and/or 
coverups. After trying to site a major plant almost directly over the San 
Andreas earthquake fault north of San Francisco, they turned southward -- 
and proceeded to get permission and began building a plant at Diablo 
Canyon.

The Hosgri Fault, capable of a 7+ magnitude earthquake, was found three 
miles from Diablo Canyon in 1969 - well prior to the beginning of 
construction. Construction began anyhow; it is not known when PG&E itself 
'knew' about the fault, but the engineers in the audience can figure what 
due diligence in discovery of this sort of thing should be applied to 
designing a nuclear facility. By the time PG&E was made accountable for 
that (ok, since you started already you can build it there but maybe you 
should make it a bit stronger), after-the-fact engineering adjustments had 
to be made to the plant at considerable cost. So far so good. But then 
during the retrofit there were a bunch of other errors, not the least of 
which was a "reversal of unit blueprints".

That is why Diablo Canyon took billions of dollars and 15 years to generate 
power.

And while we're on the subject: conveniently ignored in this "power crisis" 
is the fact that while PG&E's distributing arm is crying bankruptcy, its 
generating arm is raking in the cash. You see, PG&E sells power to itself.

And on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 12:37 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Yes indeed. You would think they would have expanded the use of 
geothermal
> during the past 10 years, since there are few environmental objections to 
> it, but they didn't. That tells us it probably wasn't the 
environmentalists
> who were blocking development. They would have welcomed an expansion of a 
> power source that reduces the need for fossil fuels.

Maybe. Geothermal isn't necessarily as clean as it sounds. An awful lot of 
gook comes up with the steam, and that has to go somewhere, probably as 
waste. If you pump fresh water down, you waste fresh water. Unless we can 
pump waste down and get a useful commodity back up from the heat 
processing, it's not all rosy. Maybe an adaption of Fred Sparber's ideas 
about biomass processing (see 5/15/97 "Turdo Deisel, P.U." thread)

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 14:50:15 2001
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> On Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:58 AM, Akira Kawasaki  wrote, in part:
> > What started as a 500 million dollar project turned
> >into a 6,000 million dollar black hole, thanks to legal
> >obstructionism. This was the Diablo Canyon project.
> 
> Good grief. I was going to stay out of this one, but just before we move it
> to Vortex-b (;-p
> 
> The Diablo Canyon plant's problems were based in PG&E's screwups and/or
> coverups. After trying to site a major plant almost directly over the San
> Andreas earthquake fault north of San Francisco, they turned southward --
> and proceeded to get permission and began building a plant at Diablo
> Canyon.
> 
> The Hosgri Fault, capable of a 7+ magnitude earthquake, was found three
> miles from Diablo Canyon in 1969 - well prior to the beginning of
> construction. Construction began anyhow; it is not known when PG&E itself
> 'knew' about the fault, but the engineers in the audience can figure what
> due diligence in discovery of this sort of thing should be applied to
> designing a nuclear facility. By the time PG&E was made accountable for
> that (ok, since you started already you can build it there but maybe you
> should make it a bit stronger), after-the-fact engineering adjustments had
> to be made to the plant at considerable cost. So far so good. But then
> during the retrofit there were a bunch of other errors, not the least of
> which was a "reversal of unit blueprints".
> 
> That is why Diablo Canyon took billions of dollars and 15 years to generate
> power.



It wasn't all the fault's fault.

I was an employee of Georgia Power during the construction of
Plant Vogtle, one of two nukes which supply a significant part of
our 15 GW generating capacity.  The original construction
estimate was $400M.  The acutal cost was around $4B due almost
entirely to regulation changes in the post TMI fallout (pun
intended).  Many regulations were retroactive requiring expensive
demolition and reconstruction.

Due to no fault of our own.  :-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 15:06:07 2001
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	Dear Vo.,


	I was given to understand the largest single source or type 
to produce energy in California is the "NegaWatt". Abbreviated NW.

	The "Nega-Watt" is any watt you saved by either not using it or
eliminating the need for using it.

	Example:  If you found an air leak in the attic of your house that
was leaking a bunch of heat and you fixed the leak and this reduced your
power requirement by one watt..... then this would be one NW. ...

	If you removed evey other incandescen lamp in a string of lamps
providing indirect mood lighting in you living room and so thereby
reducing your power bill by 10 watss then you would hve "generated a NW"

			J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 15:10:09 2001
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From: William Beaty 
To: sciclub-list eskimo.com
Subject: Scientific Amercian to drop "The Amateur Scientist"?!!
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See attachment.

Darn, I wish I was currently a Sci Am subscriber, so I could write a
letter threatening to stop!  (I pick up the magazine on the newstand
occasionally, mostly to read The Amateur Scientist.)

If you wish to comment on the loss of THE AMATEUR SCIENTIST, contact
editors sciam.com, or use the www-form at
http://www.scientificamerican.com/forms/editorletterform.html (sometimes
forms have problems, so you might wish to send comments both via the form
and via email) 

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

http://earth.thesphere.com/sas/

Scientific American to drop "The Amateur Scientist":

Oh, say it isn't so!  Despite 73 years of service to citizen scientists
and one million monthly readers, the new leadership at Scientific American
magazine has decided to suspend publication of "The Amateur Scientist." 
Actually, Scientific American has decided to drop all of its columns,
including "Connections"  by James Burke...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 15:29:16 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:20:24 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer 
To: sno 
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Grand....Re: CdS x-ray detector
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	It is so grand to hear someone toss off circuit jargon
	AND:  with the bridge, use a constant current source to drive the
bridge and bias the CCS with a reference.  Decouple exhaustively on BOTH
rails and rail-to-rail.




On Fri, 22 Jan 2021, sno wrote:

> 
> What about putting the photocell in a bridge...
> using a differential amplifier to detect small
> changes.....steve opelc
> 
> Scott Little wrote:
> > 
> > Well you're right, Fred.
> > 
> > A CdS photocell, placed in a light-tight enclosure (pouch of black tape)
> > exhibits a very high resistance...eventually.  I tested mine by exposing it
> > to room light (~500 ohms) and then put it into the black tape
> > enclosure.  The resistance gradually increased over a 5 minute period
> > eventually exceeding 40 megohms, the limit of the particular DVM I was using.
> > 
> > When I shine an intense 17 keV x-ray source onto the cell (through the
> > single layer of black tape), I can bring the resistance down from >40
> > megohms into the mid-30's (megohms)!  So it DOES detect x-rays.
> > 
> > The problem is its sensitivity.  The flux of 17 keV x-rays comes from a ~25
> > mCi Pu-238 source at point-blank range of ~ 5 mm.  When I do the same thing
> > to my Inspector GM tube instrument, it absolutely paralyzes it with counts
> > (the instrument produces an error alarm and flashes its maximum dose rate
> > of 100 mR/hr)....yet the CdS photocell only sees this flux marginally well.
> > 
> > I could go on to quantify the sensitivity if you really want it...but this
> > certainly does noy look like a viable way to detect low levels of
> > x-radiation from a cold fusion experiment.
> > 
> > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 15:31:51 2001
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:10:32 GMT
Organization: Miller and Associates
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References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010122153506.00b07460 pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010122130832.00b07460@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010122130832.00b07460@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.20010122153506.00b07460@pop.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.2.200101231001
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:05:22 -0500, Jed Rothwell
 wrote:

>Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>         The major wind areas of the USA are in a corridor from North
>         Dakota  down through parts of Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska
>         and Iowa.  That is, there is enough area with high enough
>         average wind speed for  economical wind generator use. A few
>         hundred thousand generators  could be placed there (there are
>         only about 1,000 right now). One  study projected that if wind
>         generators were placed in 1/4 of North  Dakota, they could
>         provide enough electricity for the entire USA.
>
>I read that there is quite a bit of wind in parts of Texas as well, which 
>is where much of the fossil fuel distribution network terminates. 

Yup, Texas is on the southern end of the wind corridor.  

If you're interested, there a bunch of info at the American Wind
Energy Association (http://www.awea.org/).

BTW, I have 5 small wind generators (2 are up), and the town near me
has 3, 350 KW generators (2 for the high school, 1 for the sewage
plant -- all feet excess energy into the grid).

>I do not 
>think it would be economical or practical to ship electricity from the 
>Dakotas to the West Coast

Probably not.  But California apparently does buy energy from both the
Quebec and Ontario power companies.  The actual energy is probably
produced in Utah or Montana, with the power produced by eastern Canada
going to the US east coast.  Just the money goes from California to
Canada. :)

>but studies by EPRI and NREL indicate that the 
>wind or solar electricity generated in Texas could be used to produce 
>hydrogen which is then shipped via the pipes now used for natural gas, and 
>used in combustion plants initially and later large and small scale fuel 
>cell plants. 

That would work for North Dakota production, too.  There are many gas
pipelines going through North Dakota from the Canadian gas fields (oil
pipelines, too).

>The biggest technical stumbling block may be that pipelines designed for 
>natural gas may leak hydrogen. They may have to be relined on the inside. I 
>think I read that relining technology has already been developed for use 
>with conventional gas.

Yup.  

However, the cost of power, especially natural gas, has to rise to
make this method competitive.  Doubling electric power and natural gas
prices will make several current energy methods competitive (solar,
wind, etc.).


-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moyn  (CDP, KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 17:01:18 2001
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Reply-To: 
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Subject: TT brown and petrovoltaics
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Hi All.

More experiments with the sample.

I noticed today a 1 to 1.5 mv potential with the BK
meter. Feeling that a bias might help move things
along, I took a 9V battery and connected it to the
electrodes for about a minute. The discharge occurred
very slowly, more so than you'd think from the bridge
measurements. This is not surprising, I expect the DC
resistivity and capacity to be quite different than
that at 1 KHz. Anyway, after about 15 minutes or so
things settled down to about 8 mV. 

I then removed the copper electrodes, and clamped them
to a section of the disk not silvered. Results were
very similar, so the silver paint may not be such a big
deal. I was concerned from earlier reports that poor
electrode contact may be causing artifact, but that
may not be an issue.

Later I will try connecting to the .25" edge of the
disk sample, and see if that affects the measurements.
This thought was inspired by some of Nicks comments
about his work.

Collin Quinney has suggested that my microwaving of
the sample may have caused damage to the effect. I
have no way to test this, but Rick has more samples
so perhaps he can do a quick comparison with a good
voltmeter on a microwaved and unmicrowaved sample.
If it does, this is a good clue as to what may be
causing the potential. Clamping on copper foil 
electrodes ought to be sufficient. I'm really
curious if you can replicate my range of voltage
measurements.

Rick asked if he should mail a larger sample. In my
minds eye I see the UPS truck pulling up with half
of Hawaii in the back. Thanx Rick, but for now I'll
just play with this unit. Perhaps you can send
a sample to Nick or someone else to play with?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 18:23:28 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:15:11 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Scott wrote:
>
>OK, sure...but PbS is designed to be an IR detector, why do you think
>it'll be good for x-rays?
>
Simply because most Metal Sulfides (MS) will fluoresce under the right
incident radiation energy. And since PbS IR detectors have a lower
dark resistance they Might be a bit easier to work with than the
higher dark resistance CdS devices.

Obviously fluorescence set up in photoconductive devices by x-ray/EUV 
photon collision is going to kick charge carriers up into the conduction band.

 http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/3/0,5716,119363+18,00.html

Since Pb is used as an "activator" in various Phosphors and has a high
attenuation coefficient for x-rays, it makes sense to take a look at
it's behavior under irradiation by the 17 Kev x-rays.

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 18:59:58 2001
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 <024001c08552$59a0d960$c7b4bfa8 fjsparber>
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:32:37 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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>At 10:21 AM 1/23/01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
> >Sure we could amplify this CdS signal and make it somewhat more sensitive
>> >but the fact remains that the same flux that paralyzes a GM tube with
>> >counts produces only a very small response in the CdS.  It is intrinsically
>> >many orders of magnitude less sensitive.
>>
>>***{That may be, but from an outsider's perspective it also seems possible
>>that you are comparing apples to oranges. If, for example, your Geiger
>>counter contains built-in amplifier circuitry--very likely--then the
>>appearance of greater sensitivity may be due to that fact alone--which
>>means: if you were to add amplifier circuitry to a CdS photocell, and
>>perhaps amplify the incoming photon signal using phospor as per Bill's
>>suggestion, you might find that it was just as "paralyzed" by your signal
>>as is your Geiger counter.
>>
>>Bottom line: based on the information you have supplied thus far, I see no
>>basis for comparing the sensitivity of the two types of device. In fact, it
>>may well be that a gadget based on Fred's idea, with appropriate support
>>circuitry, would be intrinsically superior to the traditional approach.
>
>OK, here's the basis.  The GM tube produces a pulse every time it detects
>an x-ray.  It's efficiency is up in the 10's of percent and is largely a
>function of the stopping power of the contained gas.  That is to say any
>x-ray that is absorbed in the contained gas produces a pulse.

***{Not quite: x-rays that are absorbed during the electron cascade that
was triggered by a prior x-ray, or during the quenching interval that
follows (when a buildup of positive ions in the ionization chamber depletes
the electric field), do not produce pulses. --MJ}***

There's no
>real need for an amplifier, except to make the pulses big enough to drive a
>speaker so you hear a click.  In other words, it's a "digital" detector, as
>opposed to an analog detector.
>
>The Pu-238 source I've got puts out about 3E6 photons/sec per steradian
>and, at 5 mm spacing, that works out to about 1E7 photons/sec/cm^2.  Let's
>assume that both detectors are 1 cm^2 for now.  In one second, the GM tube
>(assume it's 10% efficient) gets 1E6 counts.  Background is maybe 1
>count/sec so the S/N ratio is 1 million to one with this flux.
>
>The CdS detector's resistance changes from ~40 megohms to ~35 megohms under
>the same flux, a S/N ratio of 5/40 or about 0.1.

***{That's just silly. Suppose, for example, that the response curve of the
CdS photocell is perfectly linear. In that case, if 10^6 counts/sec drops
the resistance by 5x10^6 ohms, then the background x-ray level of 1
count/sec will drop it by (1/10^6)(5x10^6) =  5 ohms. Thus 5 ohms is the
noise, and 5x10^6 ohms is the signal. Result: S/N = 1 million to 1,which is
precisely the same as for the Geiger counter. --MJ}***

>Therefore the GM tube achieves a S/N ratio that is about 10 million times
>better than the CdS detector.

***{That's an assumption, not a fact. The only important questions are these:

(1) How does the amplified signal from the Geiger counter compare to that
from the CdS photocell, in terms of the associated response curves? Which
amplified signal yields a response curve that is capable of producing the
most accurate measurements?

(2) Which type of probe is best suited to the task at hand, the
traditionally bulky gas-filled detector used by a Geiger counter, or the
presumably *much* smaller CdS photocell?

I don't know the answer to (1), but regarding (2) the CdS photocell seems
clearly superior. (I have not a clue as to how you might use a Geiger
counter to efficiently detect x-rays inside the cell you are currently
running, for example, but it would seem rather trivial to insert a CdS
photocell into it, if you chose to.)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 19:34:50 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 21:22:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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The California blackouts were explained by Benjamin Franklyn, more than 242
years ago:

"Democracy," he said, "is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to
have for dinner."

In California, the regulated electric utilities are the sheep, and the
consumers who have voted to rip them off are the wolves. The blackouts are
the proximate effect. Here are some secondary effects:

(1)  "California's two big utilities are in default on their
loans and could be pushed into bankruptcy any day. With $12
billion in debt between them, together they would comprise
the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. history."

(2) "The cutting of electricity and the scarcity of
gasoline will wreak havoc with the dairy industry in
California and the rest of the country. California is the
largest dairy producing state in the country. I think it
now produces more dairy and cheese products than Wisconsin.
Cows that produce milk must be milked at least once a day
or they stop producing. In today's industrial age, they are
usually milked by milking machines, not by milkmaids. The
milk must be refrigerated... and shipped in refrigerated
trucks. Product (milk, cheese and other dairy products)
that cannot be refrigerated will either be dumped or sold
to the government for lower price, because the
manufacturers cannot afford the risk of selling
bacteria/mold-infected products. A World Net Daily article
reports dairy farmers were dumping milk yesterday... If the
blackouts continue or get worse, things could get real ugly
in a real hurry, not only California but the rest of the
country, as well, because of our dependence on California
for food."

The above quotes were taken from Bill Bonner's free financial newsletter.
See http://www.dailyreckoning.com for subscription information.

In today's paper I read that manufacturers across California, more and
more, are shutting down during the week and operating only on weekends,
when the electricity supplies are less tight. Since Californa comprises
about 35% of the GDP of the country, the economic impact of such practices
will greatly worsen the recession that, according to the index of leading
indicators, is already under way.

But, hey, using the instrumentality of government to pillage, plunder,
oppress, and even kill our fellow men is a fun game, and we aren't about to
give it up, right? :-)

--Mitchell Jones
________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 19:35:26 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
To: 
Subject: RE: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:47:01 +0700
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I agree with your suggestion,
 but I would imagine you would need
 several kilometers to see anything.
Using a local reference is the key, indeed.
There would be a few technical hurdles
 to clear, but the testing might be fun.

> From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com]
> Sent: 2001 January 23, Tuesday 21:28
> Subject: Re: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception

>x<

> The re-tuning of reference equipment is always necessary, and no 
> instrument 
> is ever 100% correct.  This is why I have suggested the PSK type echo 
> receiver.  You send your signal into the distortion through a 
> fixed length 
> of cable and compare the returning phase to the outgoing standard (the 
> frequency will be the same).  Using a high frequency it will be like 
> looking at small time lags under a microscope.
> 
> Basing the measurement on the phase shift (relative) takes the 
> emphasis off 
> of the accuracy of the reference oscillator and places it on the 
> conditions 
> at the delay line "probe" (also relative)  finally the suggestion of a 
> standard of measurement in dBG (or if someone could suggest a unit of 
> temporal distortion) is a relative measurement.
> 
> The idea is that you would be able to determine if the "apparent" G 
> distortion (perhaps generated by some EM electrogravitic device) is an 
> actual G distortion based on the temporal side effect or something else.
> Charlie Ford
> 
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 20:09:14 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 22:08:43 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: RE: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
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Hmmm...

I have a delay line from an old analog scope.  Shielded bifolar.

It's about 20M in length.   I think the probe could be tuned with a sliding 
tube like a trombone.  (or like an old signal generator ?)  At 1200MHz the 
wave length will be about .25M meters.  That  should amplify the effect 
about 125X  I think it will still be hard to see.

Now how do we generate a temporal distortion to test it?

At 09:47 AM 1/24/01 +0700, you wrote:

>I agree with your suggestion,
>  but I would imagine you would need
>  several kilometers to see anything.
>Using a local reference is the key, indeed.
>There would be a few technical hurdles
>  to clear, but the testing might be fun.


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:51:24 +0700
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One thing that you might try,
 (I'm sure this won't work...
   ... but on the other hand...)
 is to check at 6 hour interval
 as the moon/tides have a real,
 measurable effect on gravity here.

Another thought is to locate your 
 sensing cable (em shielded!)
 near a place where large masses
 pass by (Big Heavy Trucks ?).
Ideally, place it near an
 underground nuke test site -
 South Asia would probably do. ;)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com]
> Sent: 2001 January 24, Wednesday 11:09
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: RE: Gravity waves (was: AG affecting FM radio reception
> 
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> I have a delay line from an old analog scope.  Shielded bifolar.
> 
> It's about 20M in length.   I think the probe could be tuned with 
> a sliding 
> tube like a trombone.  (or like an old signal generator ?)  At 
> 1200MHz the 
> wave length will be about .25M meters.  That  should amplify the effect 
> about 125X  I think it will still be hard to see.
> 
> Now how do we generate a temporal distortion to test it?
> 
> At 09:47 AM 1/24/01 +0700, you wrote:
> 
> >I agree with your suggestion,
> >  but I would imagine you would need
> >  several kilometers to see anything.
> >Using a local reference is the key, indeed.
> >There would be a few technical hurdles
> >  to clear, but the testing might be fun.
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 21:11:37 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:06:02 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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At 08:32 PM 1/23/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{That's just silly. Suppose, for example, that the response curve of the
>CdS photocell is perfectly linear. In that case, if 10^6 counts/sec drops
>the resistance by 5x10^6 ohms, then the background x-ray level of 1
>count/sec will drop it by (1/10^6)(5x10^6) =  5 ohms. Thus 5 ohms is the
>noise, and 5x10^6 ohms is the signal. Result: S/N = 1 million to 1,which is
>precisely the same as for the Geiger counter. --MJ}***

No, 5E6 ohms is what the CdS "reads" with no signal...i.e. that is the 
background.  A real signal of 1 count/sec would drop the resistance by 5 
ohms...i.e. that is the signal.  You would be trying to see that 5 ohm drop 
against the background of 5E6 ohms...so your signal/background ratio would 
be 1E-6....not good.

True, there are situations where a small detector is advantageous (i.e. 
tight quarters) but usually the larger the sensitive area, the better...for 
overall detection efficiency.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 21:18:09 2001
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From: John Schnurer 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Measure time distortion
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n
	Dear vo.,

	Are you still operating on the idea Gravity alters the frquency of
FM radio reception?

	It does... but the effect is TINY .... really tiny.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 21:42:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 23:46:44 -0600
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From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Measure time distortion
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And so you must amplify the effect.   Also  This device would measure a 
relative change.   Where the (Temporal density)  is different over a 
relatively short distance (length of a cable)

The reference would have to be in an unaffected (less effected) aria 
relative to the probe.
Therefore measuring the passing of the moon will be most 
difficult.  passing trucks would have more effect because the distortion 
will be closer (inverse square law)

I am not saying it would be easy, but it could be a valuable instrument to 
one who is attempting to distort gravity or time.    I thing concentrating 
the delay line in one place and measuring the phase shift at another will 
do the job...   I am still not sure we can look close enough to see anything.

I will try the passing trucks  I live a couple hundred yards from a busy 
freeway.


At 12:17 AM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
>n
>         Dear vo.,
>
>         Are you still operating on the idea Gravity alters the frquency of
>FM radio reception?
>
>         It does... but the effect is TINY .... really tiny.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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> From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1 yahoo.com]
> Sent: 2001 January 24, Wednesday 12:47
> Subject: Re: Measure time distortion
>
>
> And so you must amplify the effect.


Use an RC element to integrate the
 phase differential between reference
 and probe ?  This would lower freq
 resolution but raise sensitivity
 to slow changes.

I assume you would be coiling the
 test probe in the vicinity of
 the traffic ? (to avoid smearing)
The lead-in would need to be shielded
 to prevent e-m interference.
Another consideration is sonic insulation
 if your lead-in is any significant length:
 In our industry, we call it "cable-slap".
 When someone is rolling up or deploying
 a cable, the impact of the cable on the
 ground causes changes in the capacitance
 of the conductors, which in our case
 show up as pulses. In this instance,
 loud noise could conceivably do the same
 thing, which under sensitive investigation
 could overwhelm the signal you are trying
 to detect.

> Also  This device would measure a
> relative change.   Where the (Temporal density)  is different over a
> relatively short distance (length of a cable)
>
> The reference would have to be in an unaffected (less effected) aria
> relative to the probe.
> Therefore measuring the passing of the moon will be most
> difficult.  passing trucks would have more effect because the distortion
> will be closer (inverse square law)
>
> I am not saying it would be easy, but it could be a valuable
> instrument to
> one who is attempting to distort gravity or time.

Actually this could be very lucrative in my industry.
Let me know if you get any good results.
If so, we could develop this into something
 which would give you a good income.
I have contacts...


good luck

>    I thing
> concentrating
> the delay line in one place and measuring the phase shift at another will
> do the job...   I am still not sure we can look close enough to
> see anything.
>
> I will try the passing trucks  I live a couple hundred yards from a busy
> freeway.
>
>
> At 12:17 AM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >n
> >         Dear vo.,
> >
> >         Are you still operating on the idea Gravity alters the
> frquency of
> >FM radio reception?
> >
> >         It does... but the effect is TINY .... really tiny.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 23 23:20:09 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 01:17:02 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: RE: ORMUS  (cont'd)
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here's a URL that I came across http://www.triax.com/bmnfa/science/ORMUS/

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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Subject: Re: "CF/OU" and Mpemba Effect a Thermal Luminescence Effect?
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This was what I was talking about last month.

It is possible that the water and electrodes in electrolysis cells
could do this.

 http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/3/0,5716,119363+18,00.html

Regards,   Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 05:44:54 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:51:32 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> n
>         Dear vo.,
> 
>         Are you still operating on the idea Gravity alters the frquency of
> FM radio reception?
> 
>         It does... but the effect is TINY .... really tiny.

Yeah.  The time difference at a height h above the earth is
gh/c^2.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 07:21:23 2001
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From:

http://www.sightings.com/general7/wonder.htm

	<><><><><><><><>

Zhirinovsky Threatens US With
(Tesla?) Wonder Weapons
>From Tom Lawrence 
and Kirill Bessonov
Gazeta.Ru International

1-24-01   

Greetings Jeff, 

We thought the following news item might be of interest to your
readers. Vladimir Zhirinovsky is (in)famous in Russia and beyond
for his radical and extremely un-politically correct views. Many
believe he is on the Kremlin's payrole, as an agent provocateur
capable of causing divisions in the Russia parliament. Moreover,
some of Zhirinovsky's seemingly radical proposals have actually
been made law and implemented after receiving backing from the
government. It is very possible that Zhirinovsky has indeed seen
secret state information on new technologies. 

Zhirinovsky Threatens US With Wonder Weapons
Gazeta.Ru 21.1.00 (see news column)
http://mail.gazeta.ru/english.shtml
1-24-01

The leader of the Liberal Democratic Party Vladimir Zhirinovsky
announced at a press conference in Moscow on Monday that Russia
possesses a new kind of weapon of mass destruction. ''The USA can
make their ABM systems, spend their money and end up losing their
shirt, and we will raise a tiny ball with our satellite and
everybody will die in any city,'' Zhirinovsky said. 

He also predicted a breakthrough in the development of other
cutting-edge Russian technologies. Among them he mentioned
''cargo transportation at a speed of 5 thousand kilometres per
hour'' and ''generating electricity from air''. ''A light bulb
will generate electricity and it will be on forever,'' the
Russian State Duma Deputy predicted.  



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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 09:25:35 -0600
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Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
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Rick

Don't look now but I think you left your sarcasm dripping... :-)

At 12:09 PM 1/23/01 -1000, you wrote:
>Only a crackpot who believes in antigravity would believe in something as 
>ridiculous as CF, says the Guardian:
>
>http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121127,00.html
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 08:23:07 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:11 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Does Russia Have a ZPE Weapon?
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Does Russia have a ZPE weapon? Probably not, but it does have an infamous 
loose cannon in the form of Vladimir Zhirinovsky, who has threatened to go 
to war with the U.S. to take back Alaska, and to drop nuclear bombs on 
Japan "because we can" (not his words, but that was gist of it). He is not 
a credible source of information. I do doubt they have "a light bulb will 
generate electricity and it will be on forever." Perhaps he saw that dumb 
movie "The Saint," and he thinks it was a documentary.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 09:21:01 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 06:53:26 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
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Charlie -

It amazes me, the depth of conviction by *reporters* (those whose job 
it is to find out stuff and tell us about it) that CF is so 
discredited and wrong. They use it regularly now as the standard of 
"discredited" science, and here the Guardian uses belief that CF 
might be real to bring down *antigravity* a notch! It's more crackpot 
than even antigravity to them, and that astounds me. There's lots of 
evidence for CF, and little to none for antigravity. Podkletnov's 
never been duplicated. CF has been many times.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



>Rick
>
>Don't look now but I think you left your sarcasm dripping... :-)
>
>At 12:09 PM 1/23/01 -1000, you wrote:
>>Only a crackpot who believes in antigravity would believe in 
>>something as ridiculous as CF, says the Guardian:
>>
>>http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121127,00.html
>>
>>- Rick Monteverde
>>Honolulu, HI
>
>Charlie Ford
>
>KC5-OWZ
>cjford1 yahoo.com
>cjford1 swbell.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 10:00:46 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:38:45 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>In California, the regulated electric utilities are the sheep, and the
>consumers who have voted to rip them off are the wolves. The blackouts are
>the proximate effect. Here are some secondary effects:
>
>(1)  "California's two big utilities are in default on their
>loans and could be pushed into bankruptcy any day. With $12
>billion in debt between them, together they would comprise
>the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. history."

Yes, they could be pushed into bankruptcy, but they probably will not. Yes, 
the consumers have ripped them off, but now that this has caused crisis, 
they will cease immediately. Jones' statements seem to be predicated on the 
absurd notion that people always do the most stupid thing, problems are 
never addressed, and every crisis is allowed to run to its worse outcome.

It is a good idea to know what the worst case scenario is, but it is 
foolish to predict this scenario will come to pass, or must come to pass. 
People infected with the Y2K Bug hysteria made this mistake. The opposite 
prediction -- that California will quickly build 10,000 MW of wind and 
geothermal generation to fix the problem -- is also foolish.

Do not underestimate the people of California. A modest rate hike will 
quickly reduce wasted electricity. The electric power engineers and 
planners in California are among the best in the world. Now that they have 
been given the go-ahead, they will fix the problems quickly, just as the 
California highway engineers repaired the roads after the San Francisco 
earthquake ahead of schedule. California has been importing less and less 
electricity over the years; the trend is not getting out of control. There 
is plenty of power line capacity to allow temporary high import levels 
while the problems are fixed.


>(2) "The cutting of electricity and the scarcity of
>gasoline will wreak havoc with the dairy industry in
>California and the rest of the country.

Not "will wreak," "would wreak." Add: "unless the problem is fixed 
promptly." It will cost billions of dollars, but California has 33 million 
people, with a median income is well above the U.S. average, so the state 
can afford it. The $12 billion debt owed by the two big utilities comes to 
$364 per capita, or $1,015 per family. The debt comes to 3% of the median 
family income. It can be paid off over a few years without imposing much 
hardship or triggering a recession. The ratepayers will holler, but they 
afford it. The cost will inevitably come down again. (I think the utilities 
are demanding a mere 30% raise.)

(The above population and income statistics are from: 
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 10:03:58 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:35:23 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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INVENTION SECRECY STATS DISCLOSED

    Under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, the government
imposes "secrecy orders" on patent applications when they involve
inventions in certain national security technology areas. These
secrecy orders impose various levels of restriction on disclosure
of the invention, ranging from export controls to national
security classification.

    At the end of Fiscal Year 2000, there were 4,741 secrecy
orders in effect, according to the latest statistics released by
the Office of Patent and Trademark at the U.S. Department of
Commerce. Most of these were renewals of existing secrecy orders
from past years. (In the recent past, secrecy order activity
peaked at 6,193 orders in FY 1991.)

    The Invention Secrecy Act raises serious constitutional
concerns, since it appears to involve prior restraint on
individual free speech. These concerns are particularly acute in
those cases where private individuals or small businesses, as
opposed to government contractors, are involved. While the
majority of secrecy orders are in fact imposed in cases where the
government has a contractual or property interest in the
invention, a significant fraction of them, known as "John Doe"
secrecy orders, are imposed on private inventors.

    The Atomic Energy Act is the only other statute under which
the government asserts a right to seize privately generated
intellectual property and to prevent its disclosure.

    Of the 83 new secrecy orders imposed in FY 2000, 24 were
"John Doe" secrecy orders. The constitutionality of this practice
has never been tested in court.

    A statistical breakdown of patent secrecy order activity for
the last few years is posted here:

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

    Additional background on invention secrecy may be found here:

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/index.html



In 2000, 24 private inventors' patents were covered by secrecy
orders.  In 1998, there were 98 covered.  If Ginger has a
military application, it might be next.  (Hummer replacement?? 
:-)

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 10:40:30 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:20:58 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <4.2.0.58.20010124092436.0095bb00 postoffice.swbell.net>
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This "Guardian" seems to me to be a bought and paid for skeptic.  I have to 
say I agree with you.  Many of the pro skeptics will not offer any study on 
a subject past the examination of a "Reputable" organization.  Once 
disproved it is disproved forever even if the disproving observation was 
incompetent.  I don't know which to be, astounded, or disgusted.

It is true what my father once told me. "One aww shi* will cost you a 
thousand ataboys"


At 06:53 AM 1/24/01 -1000, you wrote:
>Charlie -
>
>It amazes me, the depth of conviction by *reporters* (those whose job it 
>is to find out stuff and tell us about it) that CF is so discredited and 
>wrong. They use it regularly now as the standard of "discredited" science, 
>and here the Guardian uses belief that CF might be real to bring down 
>*antigravity* a notch! It's more crackpot than even antigravity to them, 
>and that astounds me. There's lots of evidence for CF, and little to none 
>for antigravity. Podkletnov's never been duplicated. CF has been many times.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
>
>>Rick
>>
>>Don't look now but I think you left your sarcasm dripping... :-)
>>
>>At 12:09 PM 1/23/01 -1000, you wrote:
>>>Only a crackpot who believes in antigravity would believe in something 
>>>as ridiculous as CF, says the Guardian:
>>>
>>>http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121127,00.html
>>>
>>>- Rick Monteverde
>>>Honolulu, HI
>>
>>Charlie Ford
>>
>>KC5-OWZ
>>cjford1 yahoo.com
>>cjford1 swbell.net

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 11:04:31 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:56:31 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
In-Reply-To: 
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>It amazes me, the depth of conviction by *reporters* (those whose job it 
>is to find out stuff and tell us about it) that CF is so discredited and wrong.

The reporters probably do not have much conviction. They toss off 
statements like this without thinking because they assume the CF question 
was closed in 1989, and research ceased at that time. When you tell them 
about recent results, some reporters change their tune. In general, 
reporters trust that the "common knowledge" is correct -- because it 
usually is, after all. They do not have time to track down every statement 
or question every commonly accepted assumption, and they do not have the 
expertise. Reporters must be generalists who write about a wide variety of 
subjects.

It is less forgivable when a physicist or an electrochemist makes biased 
statements about CF without bothering to look up the peer review 
literature. The most unforgivable and unethical behavior occurs when a CF 
scientist like McKubre hands over a copy of a peer-reviewed papers to a 
scientist, but that scientist refuses to read the paper, and he goes on to 
publish outrageous lies about CF, repeatedly. Douglas Morrison, Robert 
Park, and others have done this. Also Gary Taubes, and but he is so stupid 
I do not think he would understand a paper even if he took the time to read 
it. He honestly believes it is possible for electrolyte to be at 20 deg C 
on one side of a cell, and at 70 deg C on the other.

Before condemning this particular reporter, it would be fairest to contact 
him or her with some information about CF written in an unemotional, 
professional tone, and see how he reacts. I have a standard letter for this 
purpose, which has been reviewed for accuracy by various experts including 
Storms and McKubre. Most of the time, the reporters ignore the letter. They 
are guilty! The others have not been tested yet are presumed innocent.

Have we got the e-mail address of this Guardian reporter Graham Ennis? I 
don't see it . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 11:27:44 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:07:28 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010124113843.00af8b30 pop.mindspring.com>
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At 12:38 PM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>In California, the regulated electric utilities are the sheep, and the
>>consumers who have voted to rip them off are the wolves. The blackouts are
>>the proximate effect. Here are some secondary effects:

The "underestimation" of the California public arises from this 
question.   Why did they do this to begin with?  I agree that the top notch 
players can fix the problem, but you must understand that there never 
should have been a problem.  The people of California have proven over and 
over again that they (as a voting whole) are unable to competently make 
long term economic decisions.
Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 11:36:22 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:23:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010124133225.00b02430 pop.mindspring.com>
References: 
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Jed:

I see you are foolishly attempting to distribute the truth :-)  This 
nonsense is simply not acceptable...

Honestly this is a great idea.  I have seen the calmly injected simple 
truth stand up and do more effective arguing then a whole herd of political 
science students.


At 01:56 PM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Before condemning this particular reporter, it would be fairest to contact 
>him or her with some information about CF written in an unemotional, 
>professional tone, and see how he reacts. I have a standard letter for 
>this purpose, which has been reviewed for accuracy by various experts 
>including Storms and McKubre. Most of the time, the reporters ignore the 
>letter. They are guilty! The others have not been tested yet are presumed 
>innocent.
>
>Have we got the e-mail address of this Guardian reporter Graham Ennis? I 
>don't see it . . .
>
>- Jed

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 12:21:48 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:03:19 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010124124434.009573f0 postoffice.swbell.net>
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Charles Ford wrote:

	The people of California have proven over and over again that
	they (as a voting whole) are unable to competently make long
	term economic decisions.

I don't think so. They have (or used to have) one of best state-wide 
education systems in the country. They played a leading role in developing 
wind power, which now contributes more new energy every year worldwide than 
nuclear power, at a far lower cost per KWH. Despite the high number of poor 
immigrants, income, education and employment in California look very good. 
Per capita income is well above the national average. You don't see that in 
states with a poorly developed public infrastructure and inattentive 
governments.

The people of California contributed to this fiasco in the deregulation of 
electric power, but historically they seem to have a pretty good track record.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 12:46:40 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 15:21:33 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Two standard protest letters: polite & Tinsley versions
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Here is my standard letter for reporters and bigwigs. People in contact 
with reporters are welcome to send one of the attached letters, depending. 
If someone tracks down Mr. Ennis, please forward this. (He is a candidate 
for letter #1, I think.) Tinsley's letter is sadly out of date, but the 
essence of the situation has not changed.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Title: Please do not knock cold fusion

Dear Mr. [journalist / bigwig politician / scientist],

In your [column/ speech / dreams] you described cold fusion as 
[non-existent / a mistake / heresy]. This is incorrect. Although the term 
"cold fusion" is not scientifically accurate, nuclear effects in 
solid-state metal lattices do exist, just as Pons and Fleischmann reported 
in 1989. These effects have been observed repeatedly in hundreds of 
laboratories, including Los Alamos [1] and several other leading national 
laboratories. Excess heat, tritium and other evidence has been measured at 
high signal-to-noise ratios, exceeding Sigma 90 on some occasions. [2] 
While it remains very difficult to reproduce in most laboratories, over 
last five years researchers at the Advanced Technology Center, Mitsubishi 
Heavy Industries have achieved 100 percent reproduceability. [3] Many 
experiments have been published in the peer reviewed journals in 
electrochemistry, and physics journals published by American Nuclear 
Society, the American Chemical Society, and in the Japanese Journal of 
Applied Physics. Extensive reviews of the field have been published by 
Edmund Storms. [4]

At this stage in its development, cold fusion produces at most 5 or 10 
watts of power in a delicate experimental apparatus, near room temperature. 
It is far from being a practical source of energy. However, the devices are 
extremely cheap, and the effect is robust once it appears. Experimental and 
theoretical breakthroughs may rapidly thrust it into the realm of practical 
technology. Researchers at Hokkaido University have succeeded in producing 
the effect at high temperatures, in a 3000E C plasma, which may allow good 
Carnot efficiency. [5]

Most research in this area is conducted in Japan, and in Italy at the 
Italian National Physical Laboratory. Several senior and retired U.S. 
researchers who would very much like to do experimental work in this area, 
but nearly all funding in the U.S. was cut off in 1992 because of fierce 
opposition to this research from the mainstream physics community. [6] An 
upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American 
scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was 
announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000, 
Marriott Wordman Park hotel, Washington, D.C., during the cold fusion 
subsection Low-energy Nuclear Reactions II, III. If you would be 
interested, I would be happy to send you a copy of that paper or abstracts 
to the work referenced below.

Sincerely,


Jed Rothwell
Contributing Editor
Infinite Energy Magazine
www.infinite-energy.com


References

1. T. N. Claytor, D. D. Jackson and D. G. Tuggle, "Tritium Production from 
a Low Voltage Deuterium Discharge on Palladium and Other Metals," 
http://www.nde.lanl.gov/cf/tritweb.htm

2. SRI International and Electric Power Research Institute, "Development of 
Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals," M.C.H. 
McKubre, et al., EPRI TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, Final Report, 
August 1994, 128 pages, plus 342 pages on microfiche

3. Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiro Itoh, Nobuaki Gotoh, Mitsuru Sakano, Ichiro 
Toyoda and Hiroshi Sakata, "Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-Ray and 
Excess Heat Induced by Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium Through 
Multi-Layer Cathode (Pd/CaO/Pd)," proc. Seventh International Conf. Cold 
Fusion, Vancouver, April 19-24, 1998. See also follow up report Second 
Annual JCF Conference (JCF-2), October 21 - 22, 2000, Hokkaido National 
University

4. Reviews by E. Storms have appeared in Fusion Technology, J. Sci. 
Exploration and Infinite Energy. See: 
http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html

5. Tadahiko Mizuno, Tadayoshi Ohmori, Tadashi Akimoto and Akito Takahashi, 
"Production of Heat during Plasma Electrolysis in Liquid," Jpn. J. Appl. 
Phys. Vol. 39 (2000) 6055-6061, Part 1, No. 10, 15 October 2000

6. Julian Schwinger, "Cold Fusion -- Does It Have a Future?," address in 
memory of Shin'ichiro Tomonaga, December 7, 1991, in Japan


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


When the above letter has no effect, or when you are in the mood, something 
along the lines of the famous 1994 Tinsley Response may be called for:


THE TINSLEY ALL-PURPOSE COLD FUSION LETTER
(patent pending)

Dear . . . . . ,

I found your letter/book/article/TV appearance most interesting.  Your 
/comments on calorimetry/nuclear physics/chemistry/streams of personal 
abuse/ are not, however, relevant.

The following matters ARE relevant.

1. EPRI have been funding CF research at SRI International for some years 
now. They are now sponsoring the fourth international conference in 
December. These facts may be assumed to be not unrelated.

2. A Toyota led consortium have been funding Fleischmann and Pons in a 
purpose-built lab for several years, and F&P's latest paper [ref] defeats 
any possible chemical explanation. The only serious attempt to explain 
their results that way [ref] served only to show that the perpetrator had 
little understanding of the phrase 'orders of magnitude' and perhaps even 
less of basic physics or chemistry. Toyota may be assumed capable of 
understanding the difference between 0W and 150W, so the only feasible 
explanation other than a novel non-chemical energy source is fraud. Fraud 
perpetrated jointly by F&P, their numerous staff, and Toyota themselves. 
Reality or fraud, take your pick.

3. CF is a subject of intentionally misleading accounts in the science 
press, a good example being the New Scientist article (about the papers 
mentioned above) of May 1 1993. Misleading is a polite word, as you will 
see if you compare the paper with the article. Intent to mislead may be 
assumed because the magazine has not replied to letters of protest.

4. The physics is not yet understood. CF is a real, novel energy source - 
or thousands of researchers around the world are putting us on. It may be 
judged soon that pathological science is alive and well - but not in the 
cold fusion community. Quibbling over details of calorimetry or the present 
fumbling attempts to unravel the physics is increasingly irrelevant to the 
central issue.

5. [5 is optional]  See that in my handkerchief? That's you, that is.

Yours in warmest friendship,


. . . . . . . . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 12:53:59 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:37:53 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detectors
In-Reply-To: <023301c08544$ea62fcc0$c7b4bfa8 fjsparber>
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Frederick
	My work was done with higher energy x-rays, 60kev to 400kev. The
fact that a 12% change in resistivity was measured by Scott at 17 kev says
that there is a good chance that with some electronics the CdS detector
could be made to work. You need to compare signal-to-background ratios.
The stopping power of the CdS photo cell could be much larger then the
gas in a GM tube. How thick is the CdS cell, what gas in what diameter GM
tube are we talking about?

Hank

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Hank Scudder wrote:
> >
> >When I worked for GE I submitted a patent  application on the varying 
> >resistance type of x-ray detectors, typified by the CdS.
> >
> Thanks for the info Hank. 
> 
> Was this directed toward using these to convert x-ray imaging
> to CRT/motion monitoring of x-rays and CAT Scan, Hank?
> 
> It was encouraging that Scott detected 17 Kev x-rays through
> the electrical tape mask.
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 12:56:22 2001
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From: hank scudder 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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For an x-ray detector, one usually uses a scintillator in conjunction with
the photo-multiplier tube. The x-rays are stopped in the scintillator, and
the light produced is measured by the PMT. The avalanche diode would
probably behave similarly. If the avalanche is saturated, it might behave
similarly to the GM tube.

Hank


On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Jones Beene wrote:

> 
> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>  
> > But, a photomultiplier tube (PMT) is not a Geiger Muller (GM) tube.  :-)
> 
> Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of your initial post. I
> assumed you were looking for a photoconductor replacement
> for a GM tube?
> 
> Of course the PMT is not a GM - but IF the avalanche photo
> detector will replace a PMT, which is very sensitive, then
> it might also possible replace the GM and could be easily
> covered with whatever fluorescence material you had in mind.
> 
> Jones
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 14:05:44 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:46:55 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
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Jed -

Graham Ennis is the subject of the report, not the reporter. He's the 
fellow who ran the field effect propulsion conference. From one badly 
translated report I read of the conference itself, it seemed that Hal 
Puthoff (mistranslated as Hal PUT-hope ?) was one of the speakers.

I couldn't find any reporter's name in the piece, but it's the 
Gaurdian Unlimited section. Here's the email for that desk:

editor guardianunlimited.co.uk

On second thought, the reporter was not too far off when he wrote 
regarding field propulsion:

There is a gigantic credibility gap. Most physicists put the second 
idea, known as zero point energy, in the same category as cold 
fusion, perpetual motion machines and Nazi bombers on the moon.


>Have we got the e-mail address of this Guardian reporter Graham 
>Ennis? I don't see it . . .
>
>- Jed

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 14:08:55 2001
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Jed Rothwell wrote: 

> An upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American
> scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was
> announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000...
> If you would be interested...


Do you by any chance have this report in digital form that
you could post as an attachment?

I searched for it on the web, but it doesn't seem to be out
there yet.

TIA,

Jones Beene

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Jed Rothwell wrote: 

> An upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American
> scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was
> announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000...
> If you would be interested...


Do you by any chance have this report in digital form that
you could post as an attachment?

I searched for it on the web, but it doesn't seem to be out
there yet.

TIA,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 14:31:33 2001
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Reply-To: 
From: "Keith Nagel" 
To: 
Subject: RE: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:30:19 -0500
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Hi.

I'm loathe to get into one of these discussions, but I think
a point needs to be made here.

The people of California are using their voice, the Vote, to
express their desire. That desire is for cheap, clean energy.
They vote down the construction of nuclear, coal, etc plants
for this reason. Would you want a nuclear plant in your backyard?
I don't. But I need power.

The "competent long term decision" that needs to be made is
to take some of many millions that are used to subsidize the
oil and gas corporations and spend them on researching alternatives.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing is not making it to the
ballot. But that's what is TRYING to be said, by their actions.
I think any reasonable person could be convinced that a
few more dirty power plants would be acceptable if in the
long term a better solution will be developed and implemented.
But this is not what's being considered.

The current administrations plan to fund research was
described on GWB's old campaign website (might still be functional).
Basically, what he's proposing is to sell off the oil
and gas rights to the Alaskan Wildlife Preserves. This will
be done by bidding, and the bid bonuses would then be applied
to alt energy research. What that means to him, and how the
monies would be distributed, was not addressed.

Now, can anyone tell us what a "bid bonus" is?

K.

PS: I am not a Californian...



-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 3:03 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis


Charles Ford wrote:

	The people of California have proven over and over again that
	they (as a voting whole) are unable to competently make long
	term economic decisions.

I don't think so. They have (or used to have) one of best state-wide
education systems in the country. They played a leading role in developing
wind power, which now contributes more new energy every year worldwide than
nuclear power, at a far lower cost per KWH. Despite the high number of poor
immigrants, income, education and employment in California look very good.
Per capita income is well above the national average. You don't see that in
states with a poorly developed public infrastructure and inattentive
governments.

The people of California contributed to this fiasco in the deregulation of
electric power, but historically they seem to have a pretty good track
record.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 15:47:05 2001
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Having attended the conference, and spoken with a number of individuals
there, I have to say that there were at least 3 journalists present at
the conference on Monday (the last day of the conference):
Alexandre Szames, Mr. Nick Cook, and some frenchman whose name I didn't
get, but who was writing for a newspaper.
I think there were other journalists present on Saturday an Sunday, but
I don't know who they were.

Szames and Cook dig very deep into this area of research, and find their
viewpoints quite interesting. Szames's interests is in the history of EM
and EM as it relates to flight. Cook has researched a lot of supposed
flying devices from WWII, and post WWII. I don't know anything about the
unknown frenchman, other than he was a little rude/cynical to a few
people, due to his own personal way of being an objective journalist.
This french journalist thought that the Guardian's article was well
written, but slightly unfair to Graham, and that it had nothing at all
to do with the conference, but was more an interview about Graham.

Personally, I thought this article was slanted negatively to Graham and
to this whole area of research in general. It's a shame, since Graham
Ennis single-handedly put together the conference (Workshop) with great
personal consequences.

-David 

Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Jed -
> 
> Graham Ennis is the subject of the report, not the reporter. He's the
> fellow who ran the field effect propulsion conference. From one badly
> translated report I read of the conference itself, it seemed that Hal
> Puthoff (mistranslated as Hal PUT-hope ?) was one of the speakers.
> 
> I couldn't find any reporter's name in the piece, but it's the
> Gaurdian Unlimited section. Here's the email for that desk:
> 
> editor guardianunlimited.co.uk
> 
> On second thought, the reporter was not too far off when he wrote
> regarding field propulsion:
> 
> There is a gigantic credibility gap. Most physicists put the second
> idea, known as zero point energy, in the same category as cold
> fusion, perpetual motion machines and Nazi bombers on the moon.
> 
> >Have we got the e-mail address of this Guardian reporter Graham
> >Ennis? I don't see it . . .
> >
> >- Jed
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 15:17:11 2001
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Subject: President Clinton Replies Personally to Dr. Mallove on Cold Fusion
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To:       All
From:  Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
            Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
            www.infinite-energy.com
Re:       Personally signed reply note from President Bill Clinton, Dated 
January 18, 2001

Today, January 24, 2001, I received in the U.S. mail -- at long last -- a 
personally signed (not apparently auto pen or copy) reply note  from 
President Bill Clinton to my 8,500 word memorandum on cold fusion. The 
White House Office of Communications requested this Memo in a telephone 
call to me in February 2000.  That memorandum is now posted on 
www.infinite-energy.com. The reply note from Clinton is on White House 
stationery, measuring about 9" x 7" and embossed with the Presidential 
seal.  This is the text of the reply note in full:

******

The White House
Washington

January 18, 2001

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Director
New Energy Research Laboratories
Post Office Box 2816
Concord, New Hampshire 03302-2816

Dear Eugene:

Thank you for your memorandum "The Strange Birth of the Water Fuel Age," 
which was compiled into a book entitled *Visions of the Future from 
Leading Thinkers*.  I was glad to have your insights about the critical 
challenges in the field of high technology, and I commend you for your 
commitment to improving our world.  I hope you will remain involved in 
the important issues of this new century.

Best wishes for every happiness in the years to come.

Sincerely,

Bill Clinton  (Hand-signed with black ink or felt pen)

*****

Though I am delighted to receive an acknowledgement from the now 
ex-President (he signed the note on one of his last last days in office), 
 I would have appreciated a more substantive response.  The Executive 
Summary of my essay makes this simple request of the President on the 
matter of cold fusion:  "Mr. President, you need do only one thing now: 
Publicly state that you are going to investigate this matter and then do 
it."   This was not done, nor do I expect that private citizen Clinton 
will be found doing anything to correct the abuses foisted on us by the 
Dept. of Energy or the U.S. Patent Office, problems which began in the 
Bush Administration in 1989 and which will no doubt be continued for some 
time in the George W. Bush Administration. The political establishment 
will, of course, eventually be forced by development of the technology in 
the private sector to react in some way.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax



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I have to say it's not one of the more highly regarded broadsheet rags in
the UK either.  It started off well way back as the Manchester Guardian
pushing for electoral reform, ballots, universal suffrage etc but lost the
plot in more recent years when it tended to concentrate on Tory "sleaze"
for want of more positive or interesting topics to focus upon.

It's generally regarded as a namby pamby left wing organ, mostly read by
high school teachers and other frustrated radicals 

- Soo

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Can you beat that?  :-)

 http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/01/24/storage.tape.idg/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 18:08:40 2001
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Subject: President Clinton's Reply to Dr. Mallove on Cold Fusion
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:01:11 -0400
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To:       All
From:  Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
            Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
            www.infinite-energy.com
Re:       Personally signed reply note from President Bill Clinton, Dated 
January 18, 2001

Today, January 24, 2001, I received in the U.S. mail -- at long last -- a 
personally signed (not apparently auto pen or copy) reply note  from 
President Bill Clinton to my 8,500 word memorandum on cold fusion. The 
White House Office of Communications requested this Memo in a telephone 
call to me in February 2000.  That memorandum is now posted on 
www.infinite-energy.com. The reply note from Clinton is on White House 
stationery, measuring about 9" x 7" and embossed with the Presidential 
seal.  This is the text of the reply note in full:

******

The White House
Washington

January 18, 2001

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Director
New Energy Research Laboratories
Post Office Box 2816
Concord, New Hampshire 03302-2816

Dear Eugene:

Thank you for your memorandum "The Strange Birth of the Water Fuel Age," 
which was compiled into a book entitled *Visions of the Future from 
Leading Thinkers*.  I was glad to have your insights about the critical 
challenges in the field of high technology, and I commend you for your 
commitment to improving our world.  I hope you will remain involved in 
the important issues of this new century.

Best wishes for every happiness in the years to come.

Sincerely,

Bill Clinton  (Hand-signed with black ink or felt pen)

*****

Though I am delighted to receive an acknowledgement from the now 
ex-President (he signed the note on one of his last last days in office), 
 I would have appreciated a more substantive response.  The Executive 
Summary of my essay makes this simple request of the President on the 
matter of cold fusion:  "Mr. President, you need do only one thing now: 
Publicly state that you are going to investigate this matter and then do 
it."   This was not done, nor do I expect that private citizen Clinton 
will be found doing anything to correct the abuses foisted on us by the 
Dept. of Energy or the U.S. Patent Office, problems which began in the 
Bush Administration in 1989 and which will no doubt be continued for some 
time in the George W. Bush Administration. The political establishment 
will, of course, eventually be forced by development of the technology in 
the private sector to react in some way.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Infinite Energy Magazine &
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL)
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

editor infinite-energy.com
www.infinite-energy.com

603-228-4516  Phone
603-224-5975  Fax



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 18:08:59 2001
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From: ralph muha 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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At 12:06 AM -0500 1/24/01, Scott Little wrote:
>No, 5E6 ohms is what the CdS "reads" with no signal...i.e. that is the
>background.  A real signal of 1 count/sec would drop the resistance by 5
>ohms...i.e. that is the signal.  You would be trying to see that 5 ohm drop
>against the background of 5E6 ohms...so your signal/background ratio would
>be 1E-6....not good.

I think it is a bit more complicated.  Imagine that we put our CdS cell in
series with a 6V battery and 1Meg resistor.  The dark R of the CdS is
5Meg, so 1uA flows thru the circuit and 5V appears across the CdS cell.

If the CdS resistance changes by 5 ohms, the voltage across the cell will
change by 833 nV.  That's the signal.  Can we build a suitable amplifier
to magnify that change? sure, but if we do, what will we see?

even when the CdS is dark, there will be two kinds of noise riding on that 5V,
thermal noise, which will be proportional to the resistance and the
temperature of the CdS, and 1/f noise, which will be relatively high, since
we are operating near DC.

we can lower the thermal noise by using a lower impedance device (I've seen
CdS cells which have a 5K dark resistance) but the noise will still be
proportional to temperature, which will be fairly high inside of a CF cell.

I was discussing this with a co-worker and he suggested using an AC
bias signal with a synchronous detector.  The higher frequency would reduce
the magnitude of the 1/f noise and the narrow bandwidth of the detector
would reduce the effect of the thermal noise, which has a flat spectrum.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 20:11:39 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: President Clinton's Reply to Dr. Mallove on Cold Fusion
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:07:19 +1100
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In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:01:11 -0400:
[snip]
>Thank you for your memorandum "The Strange Birth of the Water Fuel Age," 
>which was compiled into a book entitled 
>*Visions of the Future from Leading Thinkers*.  

Any chance this can actually be tracked down? (LoC?).

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 20:28:55 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:25:47 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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>At 08:32 PM 1/23/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{That's just silly. Suppose, for example, that the response curve of the
>>CdS photocell is perfectly linear. In that case, if 10^6 counts/sec drops
>>the resistance by 5x10^6 ohms, then the background x-ray level of 1
>>count/sec will drop it by (1/10^6)(5x10^6) =  5 ohms. Thus 5 ohms is the
>>noise, and 5x10^6 ohms is the signal. Result: S/N = 1 million to 1,which is
>>precisely the same as for the Geiger counter. --MJ}***
>
>No, 5E6 ohms is what the CdS "reads" with no signal...i.e. that is the
>background. A real signal of 1 count/sec would drop the resistance by 5
>ohms...i.e. that is the signal.  You would be trying to see that 5 ohm drop
>against the background of 5E6 ohms...so your signal/background ratio would
>be 1E-6....not good.

***{You are forgetting your own numbers. You originally said the resistance
of the CdS photocell was 40x10^6 ohms with no signal, and 35x10^6 with a
signal of 10^6 counts/sec from your Pu-238 source. Thus the presence of
that signal causes the resistance to drop by 40x10^6 - 35x10^6 = 5x10^6
ohms. That means 5x10^6 ohms of decrease represents the signal, not the
background. Further, you also originally said that the background rate was
1 count/sec. Assuming a linear response, a background (noise) level of 1
count/sec will drop the resistance by (1/10^6)(5x10^6) =  5 ohms. Result:
the S/N ratio, as measured by the induced changes in resistance, is 1
million to 1, exactly as I said. --MJ}***

>True, there are situations where a small detector is advantageous (i.e.
>tight quarters) but usually the larger the sensitive area, the better...for
>overall detection efficiency.
>
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Inc.
>4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
>Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185
>512-346-3017 (FAX)
>http://www.earthtech.org

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 24 21:52:57 2001
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From: Scott Little 
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At 10:25 PM 1/24/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{You are forgetting your own numbers. You originally said the resistance
>of the CdS photocell was 40x10^6 ohms with no signal, and 35x10^6 with a
>signal of 10^6 counts/sec from your Pu-238 source. Thus the presence of
>that signal causes the resistance to drop by 40x10^6 - 35x10^6 = 5x10^6
>ohms. That means 5x10^6 ohms of decrease represents the signal, not the
>background.

OK, I did forget the dark R value, thanks.  Yes, 5E6 ohms is the delta-R 
output of the detector for a 1E6 ct/sec input signal.  So a 1 ct/sec input 
signal would change the R by only 5 ohms.  With only a 1 ct/sec input 
signal, you would be looking for that 5 ohm delta-R against the no signal 
background R of 4E7 ohms.  Thus your signal/background ratio would be only 
about 1E-7 (ten times worse than my earlier erroneous estimate).

>  Further, you also originally said that the background rate was
>1 count/sec.

That's the estimated background count rate for the GM-tube...not the CdS 
detector.  A  real signal of 1 ct/sec into the GM-tube would therefore 
produce a signal/background ratio of 1.

Summarizing, when both detectors look at a real signal whose magnitude is 1 
ct/sec, the CdS detector's resistance changes from 40,000,000 ohms to 
39,999,995 ohms, while the observed countrate in the GM-tube changes from 1 
ct/sec to 2 ct/sec.

Take your choice of these two methods of detecting a 1 ct/sec signal.  The 
GM-tube makes it easy to do with any crude counting circuit.  The CdS 
detector requires an ohmmeter with better than 0.1 ppm stability...plus you 
need a CdS cell whose dark R is stable to better than 0.1 ppm.  Good luck 
finding either of these.

BTW, Ralph Muha is right, the situation is somewhat more complex...but, 
since we're just trying to hit the broad side of a barn right now, the 
simple considerations above will suffice.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 00:37:50 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:32:50 -1000
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 storage medium - Janua
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Frederick -

>Can you beat that?  :-)


With a stick.



Mahalo for the straight line!


> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/01/24/storage.tape.idg/index.html
>


- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: Dan Quickert 
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In a measured response, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Frederick -
>
> >Can you beat that?  :-)
>
> With a stick.
>
> Mahalo for the straight line!

Looks like you're opti'ng to be a ruler here.

However some do not adhere to that vision of your roll,
 I foresee splinter groups forming.

Given the trend in our ability to store data on whatever we want, perhaps 
it won't be long before we're storing Giglebytes on our fingernails 
(transparent, modifiable protein structures). The ultimate handheld storage 
device. Would give new meaning to the term 'thumbnail sketch'.

Dan Quickert

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>n
>	Dear vo.,
>
>	Are you still operating on the idea Gravity alters the frquency of
>FM radio reception?
>
>	It does... but the effect is TINY .... really tiny.

Brian Deplama said that it affects the frequency at the set receives. 
I find the phenomena fascinating form the standpoint of why. they 
should do that. I suppose that changes in gravity affects the 
operation of the tuning circuit. It might have applications as an 
instrument.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 02:15:26 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:14:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Mitchell Jones wrote;

>The California blackouts were explained by Benjamin Franklyn, more than 242
>years ago:
>
>"Democracy," he said, "is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what to
>have for dinner."


That's a good one, Mitchell, I want to thank both you and Dr. 
Franklin for a good laugh.

>
>In California, the regulated electric utilities are the sheep,

I used to think that untill MPR's Market Place pointed out that the 
CA Edison just split itself in two. If I loose money from my right 
hand, and take it in with my left hand, have I lost money?

>consumers who have voted to rip them off are the wolves.

I agree, they attempted to vote them selves a free lunch.
>
>
>(1)  "California's two big utilities are in default on their
>loans and could be pushed into bankruptcy any day. With $12

If Market Place's report is true, the bondholders are going to get 
hosed by this legal fiction, I think this boarders on fraud

>. California is the
>largest dairy producing state in the country.

All of our dairy farmer customers have a standby generator.


>Since Californa comprises
>about 35% of the GDP of the country, the economic impact of such practices
>will greatly worsen the recession

Thank the environmental waccos too. Let's not build any more power 
plants, keep on using more electricity, and then complain when our 
save the whales website goes down.

>
>But, hey, using the instrumentality of government to pillage, plunder,
>oppress, and even kill our fellow men is a fun game, and we aren't about to
>give it up, right? :-)


Not as long as we can afford to put gas in our Volvos we won't


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 02:15:31 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:14:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: Does Russia Have a ZPE Weapon?
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jed Rothwell wrote;

>Does Russia have a ZPE weapon? Probably not, but it does have an 
>infamous loose cannon in the form of Vladimir Zhirinovsky,


If the Russians have a ZPE weapon we'd better start studying Russian. 
VZ is one sick puppy. He is reported to be the bastard son of a 
Jewish father. No one hates the Jews more, You've all heard of the 
career on another man with a similar background, Adolph 
Scnikelgruber, AKA Hitler. He wants to take the Russian army and go 
visit Jerusalem. I find this quite entertaining, because this is just 
what the Biblical Paradigm says will happen. He also wants to sell 
virgin women to balance Russia's balance of trade. His sexual 
appetite is said to be on par with citizen Clinton's. I find this 
clown amusing, but then I'm not in the same country with him either.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 02:15:34 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:14:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
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>Rick Monteverde wrote;



>Charlie -
>
>It amazes me, the depth of conviction by *reporters* (those whose 
>job it is to find out stuff and tell us about it)


I'm not amazed, it's clear to me that these people have an agenda and 
suppression of certain technologies is one of them.

>  There's lots of evidence for CF, and little to none for 
>antigravity. Podkletnov's never been duplicated. CF has been many 
>times.

I thought that Podkletnov's effect had been replicated. Bruce DePalma 
seems to believe that he has produced AG too.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 04:10:12 2001
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From: "Nick Palmer" 
To: 
Subject: Chris Tinsley
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:05:59 -0000
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

<>

It was good to see another example of Chris' acerbic style. I hadn't =
seen this one before. Truly Vortex-L is the poorer for his passing.
    I think sufficient time has passed that I can now share what follows =
with the group (it was never confidential, as such).
    When I visited Chris once, he told me that one of the strongest =
impetuses behind his interest in unusual phenomena was related to his =
experience with his first wife. For those who didn't know, she was a =
brilliant woman who died early of a mysterious complaint which led to =
her serum potassium "disappearing". Ordinary supplementation did not =
help and, in Chris's memorable words, they ended up "pumping industrial =
quantities of potassium" into her with no avail. It was not excreted, so =
what happened to it?
    I believe Chris thought that his wife was somehow processing the =
potassium into something else, like Kervran's (can't remember the =
spelling) chickens which allegedly transmuted potassium from mica into =
calcium. Hence his subsequent interest in low temperature nuclear =
reactions etc. I speculated that the potassium may be being laid down in =
the bones but Chris said that potassium didn't form any insoluble salts =
in the body. I then said what about mica - couldn't something like that =
have been deposited in her bones (I hadn't heard about the chickens =
then) and Chris shot me what I can only describe as a very sharp look =
and we moved onto other topics. To this day I don't know if I'd said =
something really stupid or  too tasteless or if I'd come up with a =
simple explanation that he and the medical profession hadn't seen =
before. What do you lot think? Soo?

Nick Palmer

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Jed Rothwell wrote:


 


<<THE TINSLEY ALL-PURPOSE COLD FUSION LETTER
(patent=20
pending)>>


 


It was good to see another example of =
Chris'=20
acerbic style. I hadn't seen this one before. Truly Vortex-L is the =
poorer for=20
his passing.


    I think sufficient =
time has=20
passed that I can now share what follows with the group (it was never=20
confidential, as such).


    When I visited Chris =
once, he=20
told me that one of the strongest impetuses behind his interest in =
unusual=20
phenomena was related to his experience with his first wife. For those =
who=20
didn't know, she was a brilliant woman who died early of a =
mysterious=20
complaint which led to her serum potassium "disappearing". Ordinary=20
supplementation did not help and, in Chris's memorable words, they ended =
up=20
"pumping industrial quantities of potassium" into her with no avail. It =
was not=20
excreted, so what happened to it?


    I believe Chris =
thought that his=20
wife was somehow processing the potassium into something else, like =
Kervran's=20
(can't remember the spelling) chickens which allegedly=20
transmuted potassium from mica into calcium. Hence his =
subsequent=20
interest in low temperature nuclear reactions etc. I speculated that the =

potassium may be being laid down in the bones but Chris said that =
potassium=20
didn't form any insoluble salts in the body. I then said what about mica =
-=20
couldn't something like that have been deposited in her bones (I =
hadn't=20
heard about the chickens then) and Chris shot me what I can only =
describe as a=20
very sharp look and we moved onto other topics. To this day I don't know =
if I'd=20
said something really stupid or  too tasteless or if I'd come up =
with a=20
simple explanation that he and the medical profession hadn't seen =
before.=20
What do you lot think? Soo?


 


Nick Palmer


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 05:49:56 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:43:59 -0800
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Jeez Guys.

The intent was to use a masked button-sized CdS (or PbS?)Photoconductor 
(about $.50 each)placed near the cathode of an Electrolysis Cell  in place of a 
film strip to get a Qualitative Idea (electrical)of the presence of x-ray and/or EUV 
radiation in real time.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 05:56:31 2001
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Jed thrives on this kind of stuff.

 http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/01/25/sawed.off.hand.ap/index.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 06:48:36 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:47:14 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010124145115.00b02430 pop.mindspring.com>
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 <5.0.2.1.2.20010124113843.00af8b30 pop.mindspring.com>
 
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Jed:

Where are you?  Possibly somewhere in the SF bay aria?   The hearty defence 
of California does suggest that.

I distinctly remember time and time again the voters placing into action 
policies  that have come close to causing fiscal ruin   I admit that these 
things are fixable and ultimatly get fixed.   I look back to my younger 
days.  I grew up in San Mateo and I remember a time when freeway overpasses 
sat unfinished for 8 years.  I remember Jerry Brown and his little yellow 
VW bug...  "saving the tax dollars"  I remember a property tax policy that 
caused the temporary shutting down of several public services including the 
busses in San Mateo and almost the SF Muni.  I am also aware of a recent 
(voter caused) problem with automobile liability insurance that almost 
ended up in the total loss of the availability of that type of insurance to 
California drivers.

So much for the voter track record :-\

On the other end of the spectrum.  I am proud to have a California 
education, to have lived in one of the most beautiful places in the 
world.  To have ben able to walk on the beach with my gal on a foggy Summer 
evening, To have seen first hand the rise of Silicon Vally,  Intel, 
Zilog,  and many others.   To live in California even if only for a few 
short years is something that stays with you for the rest of your life.



At 03:03 PM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Charles Ford wrote:
>
>         The people of California have proven over and over again that
>         they (as a voting whole) are unable to competently make long
>         term economic decisions.
>
>I don't think so. They have (or used to have) one of best state-wide 
>education systems in the country. They played a leading role in developing 
>wind power, which now contributes more new energy every year worldwide 
>than nuclear power, at a far lower cost per KWH. Despite the high number 
>of poor immigrants, income, education and employment in California look 
>very good. Per capita income is well above the national average. You don't 
>see that in states with a poorly developed public infrastructure and 
>inattentive governments.
>
>The people of California contributed to this fiasco in the deregulation of 
>electric power, but historically they seem to have a pretty good track record.
>
>- Jed

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Wheatstone Bridge Circuit
Wheatstone Bridge Circuit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
Due to their outstanding sensitivity, Wheatstone Bridge Circuits are =
very advantageous for the measurement of resistance, inductance, and =
capacitance. Wheatstone briges are widely used for strain measurements. =
A Quarter Bridge Wheatstone bridge is shown below:=20
=20

It consists of 4 resistors arranged in a diamond orientation. An input =
DC voltage, or excitation voltage, is applied between the top and bottom =
of the diamond and the output voltage is measured across the middle. =
When the output voltage is zero, the bridge is said to be balanced. One =
or more of the legs of the bridge may be a resistive transducer, such as =
a strain gage. The other legs of the bridge are simply completion =
resistors with resistance equal to that of the strain gage(s). As the =
resistance of one of the legs changes, by a change in strain from a =
resistive strain gage for example, the previously balanced bridge is now =
unbalanced. This unbalance causes a voltage to appear across the middle =
of the bridge. This induced voltage may be measured with a voltmeter or =
the resistor in the opposite leg may be adjusted to rebalance the =
bridge. In either case the change in resistance that caused the induced =
voltage may be measured and converted to obtain the engineering units of =
strain.=20


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Wheatstone Bridge Circuit






 


Wheatstone Bridge Circuit



Due to their outstanding sensitivity, Wheatstone Bridge Circuits are =
very=20
advantageous for the measurement of resistance, inductance, and =
capacitance.=20
Wheatstone briges are widely used for strain measurements. A Quarter Bridge Wheatstone bridge is shown =
below:=20

=20

It consists of 4 resistors arranged in a diamond orientation. An =
input DC=20
voltage, or excitation voltage, is applied between the top and bottom of =
the=20
diamond and the output voltage is measured across the middle. When the =
output=20
voltage is zero, the bridge is said to be balanced. One or more of the =
legs of=20
the bridge may be a resistive transducer, such as a strain gage. The =
other legs=20
of the bridge are simply completion resistors with resistance equal to =
that of=20
the strain gage(s). As the resistance of one of the legs changes, by a =
change in=20
strain from a resistive strain gage for example, the previously balanced =
bridge=20
is now unbalanced. This unbalance causes a voltage to appear across the =
middle=20
of the bridge. This induced voltage may be measured with a voltmeter or =
the=20
resistor in the opposite leg may be adjusted to rebalance the bridge. In =
either=20
case the change in resistance that caused the induced voltage may be =
measured=20
and converted to obtain the engineering units of strain. =



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 07:19:16 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:16:06 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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Charles Ford wrote:

>Jed:
>
>Where are you?  Possibly somewhere in the SF bay aria?

I'm in Atlanta. I've never been to California, except for a few days when I 
was kid. I've heard it's nice.


>I distinctly remember time and time again the voters placing into action 
>policies  that have come close to causing fiscal ruin   I admit that these 
>things are fixable and ultimatly get fixed.

What harm? They get fixed and that's that. The people in CA have 
short-changed the power companies for a couple of years. Okay, so now every 
family owes $1,015 on average. Jack up the power bills by $42 per month and 
the problem will be fixed in two years. It isn't like paying off the 
national debt.


>    I look back to my younger days.  I grew up in San Mateo and I remember 
> a time when freeway overpasses sat unfinished for 8 years.

That's good. I know of two unfinished freeways in Washington, D.C. and 
Harrisburg, PA. I favor leaving freeways unfinished, or better yet tearing 
down existing ones. That's the only way we will solve the traffic problem. 
They should have started tearing down freeways in the late 60s, when it 
became apparent they cause more problems than they solve. We would have a 
viable transportation / communication network by now.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:40:49 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: "Cold Fusion" has been thoroughly discredited.
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010124133225.00b02430 pop.mindspring.com>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Jed -
>
>Graham Ennis is the subject of the report, not the reporter.

Oops.


>On second thought, the reporter was not too far off when he wrote 
>regarding field propulsion:
>
>There is a gigantic credibility gap. Most physicists put the second idea, 
>known as zero point energy, in the same category as cold fusion, perpetual 
>motion machines and Nazi bombers on the moon.

Yes, this is a statement of fact. I would say the same thing -- I agree 
that cold fusion is lumped together with perpetual motion and Nazi bombers 
on the moon. I am glad the newspaper sent a reporter to the meeting, and I 
think overall the tone of the article is open-minded.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 07:54:11 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:51:02 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: CNN.com - Man accidentally saws off hand, then shoots
  nails into head - January
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Jed thrives on this kind of stuff.

That's a bit extreme, even for me! I admit I enjoy the Darwin Awards. 
Laughing at other people's pain is a guilty pleasure. That's the essence of 
slapstick comedy, which I adore. I guess it's better than Arnold 
Schwarzenegger-style violence. It is harmless fantasy. When Laurel & Hardy 
drive a Model T through a lumber mill saw and cut it half, or drop a piano 
down a flight of stairs, or when Charlie Chaplin eats his shoe, nobody 
mistakes that for reality.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 10:11:09 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:57:23 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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>At 10:25 PM 1/24/2001 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{You are forgetting your own numbers. You originally said the resistance
>>of the CdS photocell was 40x10^6 ohms with no signal, and 35x10^6 with a
>>signal of 10^6 counts/sec from your Pu-238 source. Thus the presence of
>>that signal causes the resistance to drop by 40x10^6 - 35x10^6 = 5x10^6
>>ohms. That means 5x10^6 ohms of decrease represents the signal, not the
>>background.
>
>OK, I did forget the dark R value, thanks.  Yes, 5E6 ohms is the delta-R
>output of the detector for a 1E6 ct/sec input signal.  So a 1 ct/sec input
>signal would change the R by only 5 ohms.  With only a 1 ct/sec input
>signal, you would be looking for that 5 ohm delta-R against the no signal
>background R of 4E7 ohms.  Thus your signal/background ratio would be only
>about 1E-7 (ten times worse than my earlier erroneous estimate).
>
>>  Further, you also originally said that the background rate was
>>1 count/sec.
>
>That's the estimated background count rate for the GM-tube...not the CdS
>detector. A  real signal of 1 ct/sec into the GM-tube would therefore
>produce a signal/background ratio of 1.

***{Note that the GM tube produces secondary x-rays internally during the
electron cascade consequent to triggering, but does *not* produce them
after it has been reset. Thus the background count for the GM tube would be
from external sources. However, given the high voltage across its plates,
dust particles containing radon will tend to accumulate on the outside of
the tube, increasing the background count to which it is exposed. On the
other hand, since the CdS detector does not operate at high voltage, it
will *not* tend to sweep up radon from the air. That means the background
noise to which the GM tube is exposed is likely to be substantially higher
than that to which the CdS detector is exposed. Result: for a given signal,
the S/N ratio of the GM tube is likely to be lower than for the CdS
detector, *especially* in the low count regime with which we are concerned.
For example, if the GM tube has a background (noise) level of 1 count/sec
due to a coating of radon-containing dust, and the CdS detector, lacking
the dust, has a background level of .1 count/sec, then when attempting to
detect a 1 count/sec signal, the CdS detector has an S/N = 1/.1 = 10, and
the GM tube has an S/N = 1/1 = 1. (Actually, the difference is much larger
than that, since the GM tube contains gas, and is going to have a very low
probability of stopping an x-ray, whereas the CdS detector is a solid, and
will have a much greater stopping power. Thus if we focus on the *absorbed*
signal, the CdS detector is likely to have an S/N that is *spectacularly*
higher than the GM tube.) --MJ}***

>Summarizing, when both detectors look at a real signal whose magnitude is 1
>ct/sec, the CdS detector's resistance changes from 40,000,000 ohms to
>39,999,995 ohms, while the observed countrate in the GM-tube changes from 1
>ct/sec to 2 ct/sec.
>
>Take your choice of these two methods of detecting a 1 ct/sec signal.  The
>GM-tube makes it easy to do with any crude counting circuit.

***{Yes, but the S/N is likely to be much lower, and the probe (the GM tube
itself) cannot be inserted into the environment (an active CF cell) that we
are trying to measure. (Placing a high voltage GM tube next to a CF cathode
would obviously screw up the electrical environment in a *major* way.)
Bottom line: the use of a GM tube is simply not an option here. --MJ}***

The CdS
>detector requires an ohmmeter with better than 0.1 ppm stability ...plus you
>need a CdS cell whose dark R is stable to better than 0.1 ppm.  Good luck
>finding either of these.

***{You are assuming that the x-ray emanations from CF cells are going to
be on the order of 1 count/sec. If, however, the reading turns out to be in
the vicinity of 100 counts/sec or higher, all bets are off. Frankly, since
the GM tube is clearly *not* an option for this application, and since we
do *not* know that the x-ray count is going to be indistinguishable from
background, I have no idea why you seem so close-minded about this. To me,
it seems like a perfectly reasonable idea. --MJ}***

>BTW, Ralph Muha is right, the situation is somewhat more complex...but,
>since we're just trying to hit the broad side of a barn right now, the
>simple considerations above will suffice.

***{By the way, Fred posted a reference to a balanced wheatstone bridge in
which one of the legs would contain a variable resistance--e.g., a CdS
photocell. The idea, I think, is that the bridge would be balanced to
produce zero volts on the output side, with the CdS photocell showing the
dark R of 40 megohms, so that any x-rays would unbalance the bridge, and
produce a measurable voltage. Circuitry could be added to continuously
rebalance the bridge (based on, say, the average value of R over the last
second), to amplify the resulting signal, etc. Result: we would be in
business. (Fred's reference was to
file:///HD4000/Temporary%20Items/83084+%202.x-html. Check it out.) --MJ}***

>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, Inc.
>4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
>Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185
>512-346-3017 (FAX)
>http://www.earthtech.org

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 10:21:20 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:36:20 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: CNN.com - Man accidentally saws off hand, then shoots
  nails into head - January
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This is a similar to an example  I have frequently used to convince Tech 
writers that "Yes you do need to put that in the manual"  or Graphical arts 
folks  "Yes we need a warning label right there"  An example only...

I say "If you sell a man a skill saw you must consider the possibility that 
he will try to use it to cut his own foot off.  Then when he succeeds he 
will sew you for not designing that capability out of the thing.  This 
would ultimately result in a redesign of the entire device resulting in a 
Skill saw with a user foot guard making the device extremely expensive and 
totally useless as a saw,  but at least it will be safe"  This is an 
example I had always hoped was just a bit too far fetched.

At 10:51 AM 1/25/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
>>Jed thrives on this kind of stuff.
>
>That's a bit extreme, even for me! I admit I enjoy the Darwin Awards. 
>Laughing at other people's pain is a guilty pleasure. That's the essence 
>of slapstick comedy, which I adore. I guess it's better than Arnold 
>Schwarzenegger-style violence. It is harmless fantasy. When Laurel & Hardy 
>drive a Model T through a lumber mill saw and cut it half, or drop a piano 
>down a flight of stairs, or when Charlie Chaplin eats his shoe, nobody 
>mistakes that for reality.
>
>- Jed

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 11:02:43 2001
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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:50:07 -0500
From: Meckanic 
Organization: Vortex Research Inc
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Subject: Re: CNN.com - Man accidentally saws off hand, then shoots
	  nails into head - January
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Charles,

Here are some actual labels from consumer goods, in case you have any doubt
that the human race is doomed through its stupidity:

On Sears hairdryer:
Do not use while sleeping. (Gee, that’s the only time I have to work on my
hair!)

On a bag of Fritos:
You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside. (The shoplifter
special!)

On a bar of Dial soap:
Directions: Use like regular soap. (and that would be how?)

On some Swann frozen dinners:
Serving suggestion: Defrost. (But it’s *just* a suggestion!)

On Tesco’s Tiramisu dessert:
Do not turn upside down. (Printed on bottom of the box, Too late! You lose!)
(I love it: food to piss you off.)

On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding:
Product will be hot after heating. (Are you sure? Let’s experiment.)

On packaging for a Rowenta iron:
Do not iron clothes on body. (But wouldn’t that save more time? and whose
body?)

On Boot’s Children’s cough medicine:
Do not drive car or operate machinery. (We could do a lot to reduce the rate of
construction accidents if we just kept those 5-year olds off those fork lifts.)

On Nytol sleep aid:
Warning: may cause drowsiness. (One would hope!)

On a Korean kitchen knife:
Warning keep out of children. (Or pets! What’s for dinner?)

On a string of Chinese-made Christmas lights:
For indoor or outdoor use only. (As opposed to use in outer space or
underground?)

On a Japanese food processor:
Not to be used for the other use. (Now I’m curious.)

On Sainsbury’s peanuts:
Warning: contains nuts. (Not to mention the nut who wrote the warning)

On an American Airlines packet of nuts:
Instructions: open packet, eat nuts. (Duh?)

On a Swedish chainsaw:
Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands or genitals. (What is this, a home
castration kit?)

On a child’s superman costume:
Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly. (That’s right, destroy a
universal childhood fantasy!)

Maybe there should be a warning label on a womens uterus? Do not open, contents
may spoil.

Regards,

Steve
aka Meckanic™
ICQ# 4569541
AIM: x Meckanic x
URL: http://webhome.idirect.com/~qmekanic


Charles Ford wrote:

> This is a similar to an example  I have frequently used to convince Tech
> writers that "Yes you do need to put that in the manual"  or Graphical arts
> folks  "Yes we need a warning label right there"  An example only...
>
> I say "If you sell a man a skill saw you must consider the possibility that
> he will try to use it to cut his own foot off.  Then when he succeeds he
> will sew you for not designing that capability out of the thing.  This
> would ultimately result in a redesign of the entire device resulting in a
> Skill saw with a user foot guard making the device extremely expensive and
> totally useless as a saw,  but at least it will be safe"  This is an
> example I had always hoped was just a bit too far fetched.
>
> At 10:51 AM 1/25/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Frederick Sparber wrote:
> >
> >>Jed thrives on this kind of stuff.
> >
> >That's a bit extreme, even for me! I admit I enjoy the Darwin Awards.
> >Laughing at other people's pain is a guilty pleasure. That's the essence
> >of slapstick comedy, which I adore. I guess it's better than Arnold
> >Schwarzenegger-style violence. It is harmless fantasy. When Laurel & Hardy
> >drive a Model T through a lumber mill saw and cut it half, or drop a piano
> >down a flight of stairs, or when Charlie Chaplin eats his shoe, nobody
> >mistakes that for reality.
> >
> >- Jed
>
> Charlie Ford
>
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:31:20 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Resent-Message-ID: <"_ZBMt.0.X44.r-7Sw" mx1>
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>Charles Ford wrote:
>
>>Jed:
>>
>>Where are you?  Possibly somewhere in the SF bay aria?
>
>I'm in Atlanta. I've never been to California, except for a few days when I
>was kid. I've heard it's nice.
>
>
>>I distinctly remember time and time again the voters placing into action
>>policies  that have come close to causing fiscal ruin   I admit that these
>>things are fixable and ultimatly get fixed.
>
>What harm? They get fixed and that's that. The people in CA have
>short-changed the power companies for a couple of years. Okay, so now every
>family owes $1,015 on average. Jack up the power bills by $42 per month and
>the problem will be fixed in two years. It isn't like paying off the
>national debt.

***{The fundamental commandment of pure capitalism is that no one shall use
the property of another without permission, either expressed or implied.
All social problems result from the failure, by governments, to be bound by
that commandment, and such violations have consequences that cannot be
"fixed."

Most stockholders in California public utilities who have lost their life
savings in the downdraft creatred by this crisis will not get those funds
restored. Persons who have sat for hours in darkened houses will not get
that time restored to them. Most dairy farmers who have lost revenue due to
spoiled milk and cows which have dried up will not have those losses
restored. Most businesses that have been forced to adopt shortened hours in
response to the blackouts will not recover their lost profits.

More generally, the tens of millions of persons in the "third world,"
mostly children, who have died from malaria due to the ban on DDT, will not
have their lives restored to them. The tens of millions of persons who, as
children, had their lives blighted by forced association with abusive
parents, or schoolmates, or in juvenile facilities, or orphanages, or
during life on the streets, will not have their sanity, or their
intelligence, or their emotional stability, or the lost years returned to
them. The victims of the massacres at Waco, Ruby Ridge, and elsewhere, will
not have their lives restored. Persons imprisoned for filling in mud
puddles ("wetlands") on their own property, or for shooting grizzly bears
on their front porches, or for shooting intruders in their homes rather
than fleeing out the back door, or for carrying or possessing an unlicensed
firearm, or for buying, selling, or using narcotics, or for prostitution,
or for gambling, or for ten thousand other uses of their own property that
have been "democratically banned" in accordance with the lifestyle choices
of the intolerant, will not get back the years that were stolen from them,
or escape the psychological effects.

What will happen, instead, is that immoral collectivists will continue to
be blind to the irreversible cumulative suffering of the *hundreds of
millions* of individual victims of our vicious system of democratic
fascism, and  will continue to define a "problem" as "fixed" when the
public outcry about it has ceased, and to ignore the tyranny that stands
over them, and which will crush tens, hundreds, thousands, or millions of
additional victims with every step that it takes in the future, precisely
as it has done in the past.

The fact of the matter is that we are living in a slaughterhouse, and it is
a manifestation of *pure evil* to refuse to see it for what it is.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>    I look back to my younger days.  I grew up in San Mateo and I remember
>> a time when freeway overpasses sat unfinished for 8 years.
>
>That's good. I know of two unfinished freeways in Washington, D.C. and
>Harrisburg, PA. I favor leaving freeways unfinished, or better yet tearing
>down existing ones. That's the only way we will solve the traffic problem.
>They should have started tearing down freeways in the late 60s, when it
>became apparent they cause more problems than they solve. We would have a
>viable transportation / communication network by now.

***{Of course it's "good." You and your likes, after all, were born booted
and spurred, while the rest of us were born with saddles on our backs so
that you can ride us. Who in hell are we to want to have access to
transportation that gives us mobility and privacy, independent of
government control! Far better that we should all be forced into public
transportation, so that muggers can sit down right next to us, so that
winos can puke in our laps and lice can jump from their hair into ours,
and, most importantly, so that we can be watched and controled by divinely
ordained, superior beings such as yourself. --MJ}***

>- Jed

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 11:48:18 2001
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 <002d01c086de$214f9820$e1b4bfa8 fjsparber>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:42:20 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: CNN.com - Man accidentally saws off hand, then shoots   nails
 into head - January
Resent-Message-ID: <"lrqGj1.0.AH5.G78Sw" mx1>
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Charles Ford wrote:

>This is a similar to an example  I have frequently used to convince Tech
>writers that "Yes you do need to put that in the manual"  or Graphical arts
>folks  "Yes we need a warning label right there"  An example only...
>
>I say "If you sell a man a skill saw you must consider the possibility that
>he will try to use it to cut his own foot off.  Then when he succeeds he
>will sew you for not designing that capability out of the thing.  This
>would ultimately result in a redesign of the entire device resulting in a
>Skill saw with a user foot guard making the device extremely expensive and
>totally useless as a saw,  but at least it will be safe"  This is an
>example I had always hoped was just a bit too far fetched.

***{Yes, your concerns are exactly on target. The problem here, as
elsewhere, lies in the refusal of government to abide by the principle of
property rights--to wit: thou shalt not use the property of another without
permission. In the present case, manufacturers of saws have the right to
sell them only to persons who have contractually agreed to exempt the
manufacturer from liability in cases where the saw is misused. To force
them to sell without the protection conferred by contractual limitations on
liability constitutes a violation of their property rights, and leads to
effects of the sort that you described. --MJ}***

[snip]

>Charlie Ford
>
>KC5-OWZ
>cjford1 yahoo.com
>cjford1 swbell.net
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 12:06:48 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:49:25 -0600
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From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010124230401.02bdac38 earthtech.org>
 
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At 11:57 AM 1/25/01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:

>***{You are assuming that the x-ray emanations from CF cells are going to
>be on the order of 1 count/sec. If, however, the reading turns out to be in
>the vicinity of 100 counts/sec or higher, all bets are off.

No, that just makes it 100 times better for the CdS cell, which still 
leaves it miserably poor.  A 100 c/s signal would change the CdS R by 500 
ohms, from 40,000,000 to 39,999,500...a change of about 10 ppm.  Thus you 
need an ohmmeter with stability better than 10 ppm (not impossible) and a 
CdS cell with dark R stability better than 10 ppm in order to measure the 
100 c/s signal with confidence using a CdS cell.  It's the latter 
requirement that really kills the CdS cell as a low-level x-ray detector.

Go ahead and put the CdS cell in a bridge.  That'll give you a big signal 
that wanders all over the place as the CdS dark R drifts around by 
thousands if not millions of ohms.

>Frankly, since
>the GM tube is clearly *not* an option for this application...

It or some other "counting" detector is the ONLY option for this 
application.  You're just going to have to either design the electrolysis 
cell so you can get the detector close to the cathode or waterproof the 
detector so it can be immersed in the electrolyte.  A small submerged 
GM-tube is not out of the question.

The CdS detector, however, is out of the question if the expected signal is 
only 100 ct/sec.

Mitchell, if you still want to argue that the CdS detector is suitable for 
this application, I probably won't respond again.  No offense...this horse 
is just dead.

Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 12:21:30 2001
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Subject: X-ray detectors
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I asked an old friend of mine (who single-handedly developed a 
high-resolution Si-PIN diode x-ray detector similar to the AMPTEK unit) 
whether or not any off-the-shelf devices would make decent x-ray 
detectors.  He replied:

>Yes.  I have seen JFET's used as direct detectors before with good
>resolution.  The active area of a transistor is painfully low however and
>stopping power is generally poor due to thin depletion regions (lousy
>detection efficiency).
>
>If you are not interested in energy resolution, I would recommend running a
>PIN diode like an ionization chamber (back bias, then measure DC current
>with an electrometer).  A regular PN junction diode would work, but dark
>current (think background) is going to be quite large and variable with
>temperature.  I would look for the thickest cheap PIN diode you could find
>with a healthy active area.  Dark current will still vary with temp, but it
>will be much smaller (and could be compensated with offset controlled by
>thermistor, or something).  You can also now get op amps (in last 3 years or
>so) with good enough internal input FET's that the electrometer could be
>quite cheap, without having to resort to discrete MOSFET electrometer
>design.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 12:43:54 2001
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Message-ID: <01C086CA.884FA290.dequickert ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert 
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" 
Subject: RE: move to Vortex b please: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:29:52 -0800
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This has gotten severely off-topic and intemperate. Could it please move to vortex-b?

On Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:31 AM, Mitchell Jones  wrote:
[large snip]
> 
> ***{Of course it's "good." You and your likes, after all, were born booted
> and spurred, while the rest of us were born with saddles on our backs so
> that you can ride us. Who in hell are we to want to have access to
> transportation that gives us mobility and privacy, independent of
> government control! Far better that we should all be forced into public
> transportation, so that muggers can sit down right next to us, so that
> winos can puke in our laps and lice can jump from their hair into ours,
> and, most importantly, so that we can be watched and controled by divinely
> ordained, superior beings such as yourself. --MJ}***
>
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
> 
> "Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
> --Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 13:01:41 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:36:30 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
In-Reply-To: 
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Mitchell Jones wrote:

>. . . Most stockholders in California public utilities who have lost their 
>life
>savings in the downdraft creatred by this crisis will not get those funds
>restored.

Of course they will! As soon as the rate-payers pony up, those utilities 
will be in great shape. Until CF blows 'em out of the water.


>  Persons who have sat for hours in darkened houses will not get
>that time restored to them.

Gee, that happens in Atlanta nearly every winter, and several times after 
summer lightning storms. We were out of power for one-week (count 'em, 
seven days) last year, and two-weeks another time before that. Somehow we 
survived this awful tragedy. Yes, our souls are ravaged by this fate worse 
than death, but we pick up the pieces, and we move on. As a matter of fact, 
nine months after these massive power failures, the maternity wards in 
every hospital in the city are swamped with babies, so I suspect people 
find ways to assuage the unspeakable grief and loneliness, and to reach out 
to one another . . . as it were, and to reestablish their sense of, ummm . 
. . community.


>  Most dairy farmers who have lost revenue due to
>spoiled milk and cows which have dried up will not have those losses
>restored.

Most dairy farmers have enough sense to install emergency generators, or to 
rent one from a heavy equipment supplier. You see them at factories and 
food warehouses in Atlanta when the power goes out.


> >They should have started tearing down freeways in the late 60s, when it
> >became apparent they cause more problems than they solve. We would have a
> >viable transportation / communication network by now.
>
>***{Of course it's "good." You and your likes, after all, were born booted
>and spurred, while the rest of us were born with saddles on our backs so
>that you can ride us.

(A moment of revelation strikes.) Oh God what have I done!?! Aaaagh . . 
.  Mercy, Maud.


>  Who in hell are we to want to have access to
>transportation that gives us mobility and privacy, independent of
>government control!

Like the highway system, you mean. Completely free of government control. 
Paid for by money from Mars, I suppose. This reminds me of G. W. Bush's 
recent statements that the federal government should not act as if it is in 
charge of Social Security.

Yo: Mitchell. Highways are paid for and run by the Government. A viable 
transportation / communication network, like the ones in Europe and Japan, 
are run by private railroads and private telephone companies. You favor 
PRIVATE over PUBLIC, right?


>  Far better that we should all be forced into public
>transportation, so that muggers can sit down right next to us, so that
>winos can puke in our laps and lice can jump from their hair into ours,
>and, most importantly, so that we can be watched and controled by divinely
>ordained, superior beings such as yourself.

As a matter of fact, I always ride public transport myself when it is 
available, because it is faster and it costs less public money than the 
highways, and because there is less government control. You never get a 
ticket for speeding. No one tells you can't talk on the phone or read the 
newspaper. No wino ever bothered me or puked in my lap. On the highways 
winos kill 15,000 people a year and injure 630,000 others. Which would you 
rather have, a wino puking on your lap, or a wino smashing into your car at 
80 miles an hour?

(I asked that before, and Jones did not answer. He will evade the question 
again, but it is amusing to ask.)

No drunk on the street or subway has ever bothered me or any friend or 
family member as far as I know, whereas my aunt was run down and killed by 
a drunk behind the wheel. That's a lifelong tragedy. Having a wino puke on 
your lap is NOTHING compared to having your aunt pulverized. You can always 
punch the wino in the nose and wipe the puke off your lap. A grown-up with 
a sense of humor does not let minor stuff like that bother him, after a 
change of clothes. Even a mugging is no big deal -- I've survived 'em. 
Drunk drivers kill as many people as all the muggers and murderers in the 
U.S. -- on trains, in houses, and everywhere. In 1999 there were 15,500 
homicides and 15,935 people killed by drunk drivers.

See:

http://www.census.gov/statab/www/part2.html

http://www.madd.org/stats/gen98js.SHTML

Highways are slow, inefficient, frustrating, and obsolete. You are worried 
about people "not getting their lives back" after they "lose" a few hours 
in a power outage? How much time do you think commuters waste? It averages 
about a half-hour per day in Atlanta multiplied by the entire adult 
population. THIS is the system you defend, and this is what you say you 
want more of -- a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem! We can 
fix it. We can do better. Private industry could do wonders, but not as 
long closed-minded, conservative fools like you force the government to 
spend billions of dollars of tax money on an obsolete solution that never 
did work, and never will.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 13:17:54 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:03:47 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: RE: move to Vortex b please: Definitive statement on the
  California power crisis
In-Reply-To: <01C086CA.884FA290.dequickert ucdavis.edu>
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Dan Quickert wrote:

>This has gotten severely off-topic and intemperate. Could it please move 
>to vortex-b?

Ahem . . . I wrote a humorous response to Jones which I meant to vector to 
Vortex-B, but I think I did not. Sorry about that.

People who know about the power crisis or who wish to comment on it should 
please continue to post here. Attached is lead in to an 
interesting  article from today's paper.

- Jed



N. Y. Times

California's Power Crisis Replays Familiar Theme

By TODD S. PURDUM

LOS ANGELES, Jan. 24 — California is long used to fires, floods, droughts, 
earthquakes, riots, mud slides and mockery from most of the other 49 states 
and the world. But no problem in a century and a half of statehood can 
quite compare to the electricity crisis gripping the Golden State.

As California endures its ninth straight day of an official power emergency 
with no easy end in sight, things have come to this: the 35 million 
residents of the nation's most populous state and the world's seventh 
largest economy are being urged to watch the Super Bowl in groups to avoid 
rolling blackouts at the hours of peak demand.

The truth has dawned only gradually that California, the epicenter of the 
nation's booming high tech economy, is subject to the episodic daily 
failure of a vital piece of its modern infrastructure that would not seem 
surprising in Bangladesh but still feels mostly surreal here.

"It's not just an economic story," said Kevin Starr, the state librarian 
and author of a series of histories of the California experience, who said 
that even the devastating San Francisco earthquake and fire of 1906 was not 
so daunting.  [Ridiculous comment! - JR]

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From: Terry Blanton 
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Jed Rothwell wrote:


 
> Highways are slow, inefficient, frustrating, and obsolete. 

What we need is a matrix of covered bike trails and a little,
high speed unicycle which runs off a clean power source.  :-)

Terry

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Some commercial units if you want to go first class. :-)

 http://usa.hamamatsu.com/default.htm

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 13:46:31 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:19:39 -0800
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Plastic-coated CdS Cells


Plastic-coated Types  About $.50 ea


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
      Type No. Package (mm) Resistance Value*1
      10 lx=20
      (k ohms) 10 *2
      100 Rise time
      0 to 63 % 10 lx=20
      (ms)=20
      P201D-5R=20
      4.3x5.1=20
      48 to 140=20
      0.90 30=20
      P380-5R=20
      12 to 36 0.85 35=20
      P722-5R=20
      5.3 to 15 0.70 50=20
      P1082-03=20
      13 to 39 0.55=20
      100=20
      P1201=20
      20 to 60 0.75=20
      40=20
      P1201-01=20
      30 to 90=20
      P1201-04=20
      50 to 200 0.90=20
      P1395-01*3=20
      5 to 15=20
      0.60 120=20
      P1444=20
      10 to 50=20
      0.85=20
      40=20
      P1445=20
      48 to 140=20
      P380-7R=20
      5.9x7.0=20
      4.4 to 13 0.85 35=20
      P722-7R=20
      2.5 to 7.5 0.70 50=20
      P1109*3=20
      15 to 45 0.85 40=20
      P1195=20
      50 to 150 0.90=20
      P1202-12=20
      3.5 to 14 0.70 50=20
      P2478-01*3=20
      25 to 75=20
      P722-10R 8.5x10.1=20
      12 to 36=20
      P1096-06=20
      2.8 to 8.4 0.75=20

(Typ. Ta=3D25 deg. C)

*1: Measured with a tungsten lamp of 2856 K

*2: Gamma characteristic between 10 lx to 100 lx

*3: Dual element cell. Listed data is for one element.


If you have comments or are requesting any information, please contact
export ssd.hpk.co.jp (Plastic-coated Type CdS Cells)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
PRODUCT TOP / HOME

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Plastic-coated CdS Cells







 




Plastic-coated Types  About $.50 =
ea





  
  

    Type =
No.
    Package (mm)
    Resistance =
Value*1
10=20
      lx 
(k ohms)		
    10 =
*2
100		
    Rise time
0 to =
63 % 10=20
      lx 
(ms)

  

    P201D-5R
    
      

      
4.3x5.1

    
      

      
48 to 140

    
      

      
0.90

    30

  

    P380-5R
    
      

      
12 to 36

    0.85
    35

  

    P722-5R
    
      

      
5.3 to 15

    0.70
    50

  

    P1082-03
    
      

      
13 to 39

    0.55
    
      

      
100

  

    P1201
    
      

      
20 to 60

    0.75
    
      

      
40

  

    P1201-01
    
      

      
30 to 90

  

    P1201-04
    
      

      
50 to 200

    0.90

  

    P1395-01*3
    
      

      
5 to 15

    
      

      
0.60

    120

  

    P1444
    
      

      
10 to 50

    
      

      
0.85

    
      

      
40

  

    P1445
    
      

      
48 to 140

  

    P380-7R
    
      

      
5.9x7.0

    
      

      
4.4 to 13

    0.85
    35

  

    P722-7R
    
      

      
2.5 to 7.5

    0.70
    50

  

    P1109*3
    
      

      
15 to 45

    0.85
    40

  

    P1195
    
      

      
50 to 150

    0.90

  

    P1202-12
    
      

      
3.5 to 14

    0.70
    50

  

    P2478-01*3
    
      

      
25 to 75

  

    P722-10R
    8.5x10.1
    
      

      
12 to 36

  

    P1096-06
    
      

      
2.8 to 8.4

    0.75


(Typ. Ta=3D25 deg. C)


*1: Measured with a tungsten lamp of 2856 K


*2: Gamma characteristic between 10 lx to 100 lx


*3: Dual element cell. Listed data is for one element.



If you have comments or are requesting any information, please =

contact
export ssd.hpk.co.jp=20
(Plastic-coated Type CdS Cells)







PRODUCT TOP / HOME


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 13:58:07 2001
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 <5.0.2.1.0.20010124230401.02bdac38 earthtech.org>
 
 <5.0.2.1.0.20010123224837.02b20e58 earthtech.org>
 
 <5.0.1.4.0.20010123103112.03914300 earthtech.org>
 
 <5.0.1.4.0.20010123090051.038f93b0 earthtech.org>
 <024001c08552$59a0d960$c7b4bfa8 fjsparber>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:47:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
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>At 11:57 AM 1/25/01 -0600, Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>***{You are assuming that the x-ray emanations from CF cells are going to
>>be on the order of 1 count/sec. If, however, the reading turns out to be in
>>the vicinity of 100 counts/sec or higher, all bets are off.
>
>No, that just makes it 100 times better for the CdS cell, which still
>leaves it miserably poor.  A 100 c/s signal would change the CdS R by 500
>ohms, from 40,000,000 to 39,999,500...a change of about 10 ppm.  Thus you
>need an ohmmeter with stability better than 10 ppm (not impossible) and a
>CdS cell with dark R stability better than 10 ppm in order to measure the
>100 c/s signal with confidence using a CdS cell.  It's the latter
>requirement that really kills the CdS cell as a low-level x-ray detector.
>
>Go ahead and put the CdS cell in a bridge.  That'll give you a big signal
>that wanders all over the place as the CdS dark R drifts around by
>thousands if not millions of ohms.

***{How do you know it would do that? And if it did--in response to
temperature changes, for example--how do you know it would be impossible to
compensate for such variations using support circuitry? Why, for example,
couldn't you balance the bridge based on the average resistance of the CdS
detector in sampling intervals that did not contain voltage spikes? Yes,
you would have to tweak the design many times, based on testing and the
emergence of problems, but if you did that, how do you know you wouldn't
come up with a good x-ray detector at the end? In other words, what logic
are you using to predict failure?

As you know, based on my lengthy argument with Bill awhile back, I do not
object when people use logic as a screening tool, if the logic seems sound.
There are far, far more ideas in the world than we can test, and so we have
no choice but to screen out the silly stuff and try to invest our time in
areas that are likely to prove fruitful. In the present case, however, my
attempts to explore the logic of your position have left me frustrated. I
glean from your various responses that you are utterly convinced that this
device cannot be used for the purpose that Fred suggested, but I see no
solid reasoning which supports that conclusion. As far as I can tell, your
*intuition* is telling you that this idea is too silly to merit testing,
and that is that.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>Frankly, since
>>the GM tube is clearly *not* an option for this application...
>
>It or some other "counting" detector is the ONLY option for this
>application.  You're just going to have to either design the electrolysis
>cell so you can get the detector close to the cathode or waterproof the
>detector so it can be immersed in the electrolyte.  A small submerged
>GM-tube is not out of the question.

***{These are high voltage tubes, Scott. If you snuggle one up next to a CF
cathode, why doesn't that constitute a drastic deviation from the protocol
you are trying to replicate? --MJ}***

>The CdS detector, however, is out of the question if the expected signal is
>only 100 ct/sec.
>
>Mitchell, if you still want to argue that the CdS detector is suitable for
>this application, I probably won't respond again.  No offense...this horse
>is just dead.

***{I haven't been arguing that it is suitable. I have been attempting to
extract from you the reasoning that prompts you to claim it is *not*
suitable--reasoning which, I might add, is apparently so potent that you
are willing to reject Fred's idea without actually trying it and seeing if
you can make it work. (I wonder why Bill Beaty isn't on your case about
now, charging you with using theory--and an unstated theory at that--to
justify not bothering to test an idea in the lab! :-)

Anyway, for the record, the fact that I am trying to extract information
from you doesn't obligate you to supply that information. You are perfectly
within your rights to leave me scratching my head and wondering why you are
so sure Fred's idea won't work, and I am well aware that even if you quite
literally have nothing to go on here but intuition, you may be correct. And
I am also aware that if I post a response to your stuff and you ignore it,
that doesn't mean you agree.

Good luck with your efforts to replicate the Mills cell, by the way.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
>Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
>512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 14:22:52 2001
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: The IT transportation plan
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References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010125100338.00b15228 pop.mindspring.com>
 <4.2.0.58.20010125081647.00968f00 postoffice.swbell.net>
 <5.0.2.1.2.20010124145115.00b02430 pop.mindspring.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> > Highways are slow, inefficient, frustrating, and obsolete.
>
>What we need is a matrix of covered bike trails and a little,
>high speed unicycle which runs off a clean power source.  :-)

Right! The perfect system, unless it rains.

The plan reminds me of the anti-aircraft "sound locator" installations 
built on the coast of England in the 1920s and 30s before radar was 
invented. These were large, parabolic concrete structures built into the 
sides of hills facing France and Germany. When conditions were right, the 
sound of an airplane coming across the channel would be focused on the spot 
where the observer sat, and the plane was heard before it could be seen 
with binoculars, or when it was above the clouds. During a formal test of a 
sound locator, with RAF generals in attendance, a milkman and his 
horse-drawn cart came along a nearby road. The clopping hooves and jangling 
bell drowned out the sound of the airplane and rendered the locator 
useless. A staff sergeant went bawl out the milkman and drive him away. One 
of the generals said don't bother, he supposed there would be milkmen, 
barking dogs, wind, and weather even during wartime.

We don't build impractical defense systems that like anymore. We make them 
a billion times more expensive, and we make it impossible for a general 
with a little commonsense to see that they cannot work. Our version is 
called the "missile defense system."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 15:34:47 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:34:45 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: move to Vortex b please: Definitive statement on the  California power crisis
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Jed
During the water crisis here in LA in the early 90's, we were urged to
take a shower with a friend. Now we have to watch football in groups too?

Hank

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> >This has gotten severely off-topic and intemperate. Could it please move 
> >to vortex-b?
> 
> Ahem . . . I wrote a humorous response to Jones which I meant to vector to 
> Vortex-B, but I think I did not. Sorry about that.
> 
> People who know about the power crisis or who wish to comment on it should 
> please continue to post here. Attached is lead in to an 
> interesting  article from today's paper.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 
> N. Y. Times
> 
> California's Power Crisis Replays Familiar Theme
> 
> By TODD S. PURDUM
> 
> LOS ANGELES, Jan. 24 — California is long used to fires, floods, droughts, 
> earthquakes, riots, mud slides and mockery from most of the other 49 states 
> and the world. But no problem in a century and a half of statehood can 
> quite compare to the electricity crisis gripping the Golden State.
> 
> As California endures its ninth straight day of an official power emergency 
> with no easy end in sight, things have come to this: the 35 million 
> residents of the nation's most populous state and the world's seventh 
> largest economy are being urged to watch the Super Bowl in groups to avoid 
> rolling blackouts at the hours of peak demand.
> 
> The truth has dawned only gradually that California, the epicenter of the 
> nation's booming high tech economy, is subject to the episodic daily 
> failure of a vital piece of its modern infrastructure that would not seem 
> surprising in Bangladesh but still feels mostly surreal here.
> 
> "It's not just an economic story," said Kevin Starr, the state librarian 
> and author of a series of histories of the California experience, who said 
> that even the devastating San Francisco earthquake and fire of 1906 was not 
> so daunting.  [Ridiculous comment! - JR]
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 16:05:47 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:01:39 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde 
Subject: Re: The IT transportation plan
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Jed -

>Our version is called the "missile defense system."

The missle defense system we actually have now is the one where we'll 
vitrify the surface of your entire country if you launch on us. So 
far so good, but what happens if we ever have to *use* that system? 
I'm assuming enormous collateral damage to the evnironment and the 
health of everyone on the planet if that happens. Why is it 
considered such a bad idea to seek an alternative that is a little 
more in line with traditional notions of defense - that of stopping 
the offense as it moves against you, before all the damage gets done?

By the way, you sere wrong about Terry's plan failing when it rains, 
he said "covered" trails!

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 16:16:43 2001
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Subject: 60s...RE: move to Vortex b please: Definitive statement on the  California power crisis
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	Hey.... the late 60s and early 70s R. Crum urged...urged ...
showering with a friend...

On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, hank scudder wrote:

> Jed
> During the water crisis here in LA in the early 90's, we were urged to
> take a shower with a friend. Now we have to watch football in groups too?
> 
> Hank
> 
> On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > Dan Quickert wrote:
> > 
> > >This has gotten severely off-topic and intemperate. Could it please move 
> > >to vortex-b?
> > 
> > Ahem . . . I wrote a humorous response to Jones which I meant to vector to 
> > Vortex-B, but I think I did not. Sorry about that.
> > 
> > People who know about the power crisis or who wish to comment on it should 
> > please continue to post here. Attached is lead in to an 
> > interesting  article from today's paper.
> > 
> > - Jed
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > N. Y. Times
> > 
> > California's Power Crisis Replays Familiar Theme
> > 
> > By TODD S. PURDUM
> > 
> > LOS ANGELES, Jan. 24 — California is long used to fires, floods, droughts, 
> > earthquakes, riots, mud slides and mockery from most of the other 49 states 
> > and the world. But no problem in a century and a half of statehood can 
> > quite compare to the electricity crisis gripping the Golden State.
> > 
> > As California endures its ninth straight day of an official power emergency 
> > with no easy end in sight, things have come to this: the 35 million 
> > residents of the nation's most populous state and the world's seventh 
> > largest economy are being urged to watch the Super Bowl in groups to avoid 
> > rolling blackouts at the hours of peak demand.
> > 
> > The truth has dawned only gradually that California, the epicenter of the 
> > nation's booming high tech economy, is subject to the episodic daily 
> > failure of a vital piece of its modern infrastructure that would not seem 
> > surprising in Bangladesh but still feels mostly surreal here.
> > 
> > "It's not just an economic story," said Kevin Starr, the state librarian 
> > and author of a series of histories of the California experience, who said 
> > that even the devastating San Francisco earthquake and fire of 1906 was not 
> > so daunting.  [Ridiculous comment! - JR]
> > 
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 17:19:17 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The IT transportation plan
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:17:06 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Rick Monteverde's message of Thu, 25 Jan 2001 14:01:39 -1000:
reply sent to vortexb.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 19:22:14 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:24:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Secrecy News
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This is not real news  but if you have an invention that can be patented 
and it is in any way revolutionary there is a possibility that it will be 
locked up.

Yes there are constitutional concerns here.  However.  Security is a 
serious issue also.   The USPTO basically publishes everything.  This 
information is available world wide to anybody who knows how to look for it.

Placing conspiracy theory aside for just one moment  I urge you to look at 
this matter form a more defensive point of view.  Our current level of 
pease you must know is temporary.  There will be war again.  I don't much 
like it but as long as humanity has existed he has made war.     Anything 
that has any capability of giving an enemy (any enemy) unlimited power,  or 
a means of mass destruction must be kept to our selves.

Remember:  Not every government believes in the freedoms that we have 
become accustomed to.  There are those who threaten these freedoms.  A 
constitutional debate is pointless if the constitution is taken away by 
force.  The constitution and the country that it sired must be protected.

At 12:35 PM 1/24/01 -0500, you wrote:
>INVENTION SECRECY STATS DISCLOSED
>
>     Under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, the government
>imposes "secrecy orders" on patent applications when they involve
>inventions in certain national security technology areas. These
>secrecy orders impose various levels of restriction on disclosure
>of the invention, ranging from export controls to national
>security classification.
>
>     At the end of Fiscal Year 2000, there were 4,741 secrecy
>orders in effect, according to the latest statistics released by
>the Office of Patent and Trademark at the U.S. Department of
>Commerce. Most of these were renewals of existing secrecy orders
>from past years. (In the recent past, secrecy order activity
>peaked at 6,193 orders in FY 1991.)
>
>     The Invention Secrecy Act raises serious constitutional
>concerns, since it appears to involve prior restraint on
>individual free speech. These concerns are particularly acute in
>those cases where private individuals or small businesses, as
>opposed to government contractors, are involved. While the
>majority of secrecy orders are in fact imposed in cases where the
>government has a contractual or property interest in the
>invention, a significant fraction of them, known as "John Doe"
>secrecy orders, are imposed on private inventors.
>
>     The Atomic Energy Act is the only other statute under which
>the government asserts a right to seize privately generated
>intellectual property and to prevent its disclosure.
>
>     Of the 83 new secrecy orders imposed in FY 2000, 24 were
>"John Doe" secrecy orders. The constitutionality of this practice
>has never been tested in court.
>
>     A statistical breakdown of patent secrecy order activity for
>the last few years is posted here:
>
>     http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html
>
>     Additional background on invention secrecy may be found here:
>
>     http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/index.html
>
>
>
>In 2000, 24 private inventors' patents were covered by secrecy
>orders.  In 1998, there were 98 covered.  If Ginger has a
>military application, it might be next.  (Hummer replacement??
>:-)
>
>Terry


_________________________________________________________
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Jones I do remember this announcement but do not have any referance.
I think it was in the science backwire..  I will look tomorrow

At 01:06 PM 1/24/01 -0800, Jones Beene wrote:
>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > An upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American
> > scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was
> > announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000...
> > If you would be interested...
>
>
>Do you by any chance have this report in digital form that
>you could post as an attachment?
>
>I searched for it on the web, but it doesn't seem to be out
>there yet.
>
>TIA,
>
>Jones Beene


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 19:38:24 2001
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Message-ID: <010901c08751$1dd87680$e1b4bfa8 fjsparber>
From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: X-Ray Fluorescence Detector
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:32:50 -0800
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Before Scott gets too bent out of shape:

I suggest that along the lines that Bill Beaty suggested  for using
a Phosphor a coating of phosphor material can be painted on
over the transparent-insulating coating on the CdS photoconductor
such as the Radioshack part No. 276-1657  (5 units ~ $3.00) which is about 
2mm thick and 6 mm diameter, or the $7.00 Clairex units in a TO-5 can with
the glass window.

A Calcium Tungstate Phosphor (or such) should enhance x-ray fluorescence
and also the fluorescence from EUV photons.

With or without an opaque coating over them, these should do
okay for placement near an electrolysis cell cathode. Or a
cathode composite could be coated directly over the photoconductive
cell.

Regards,  Frederick


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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:31:14 +0700
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Vos

I read all this with interest,
 but I am just a bit confused about
 'counting' X-rays.

As a wave phenomena, shouldn't you
 be trying to measure the intensity
 of the waves rather than the number
 of scintillations ?

Also, ideally, we might want to be able
 to plot energy vs spectrum,
 so we would need some way to categorize
 what types of X-rays are arriving...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 21:06:25 2001
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:00:49 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: H:O ratio problems
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Well folks, it has been a comedy/tragedy of errors around here 
lately.  Remember all that noise I made recently about anomalous H:O ratios 
in the gas coming from my Mills experiment?  Please forget it.  Instead 
mark me down for rediscovering the principle of gas chromatography!

A 2 meter long tube with 4.5 mm ID connects the cell to the valve that 
bleeds the gas into our vacuum system for analysis with the RGA.  Right 
before that valve is a tee which leads immediately to a second valve which 
leads immediately to atmosphere.  The half-baked idea behind this plumbing 
arrangement was to keep the long tube full of fresh gas flowing from the 
cell until analysis time.  Then, the air vent valve would be closed and the 
vacuum valve cracked slightly to let the cell gas into the analysis chamber.

The problem with this arrangement is that hydrogen diffuses significantly 
faster through this long tube than does oxygen.  The result is that the 
composition of the gas in the tube is significantly enriched in 
oxygen...JUST BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT TRANSIT TIMES.  To see this clearly, 
just imagine the limiting case in which H atoms move through the tube 
"instantly".  Every time a new H atom is released in the cell, it races 
through the tube and out into the air.  Meanwhile the slow-moving O atoms 
trudge along in the tube and the result is that the tube is full of nearly 
pure O.

After realizing what was going on, we came up with a few ideas for 
eliminating  this problem...but nothing that can be readily 
implemented.  One of the biggest challenges is the very low gas flow rate 
from this experiment...about 0.01 cm^3/sec.  Thus it takes the average 
molecule about 50 minutes to travel down the 2 meter long tube.

I think we're going to have to content ourselves with using the RGA more as 
a semi-quantitative analysis tool to check for unexpected gases such as 
CO2.  A small but definite CO2 signal was consistently observed in the cell 
gas.

Run 3, the first active run (K2CO3 electrolyte) with accurate gas flowrate 
measurements, is finally finished (~380 hours).  I'll be posting a full 
report  as soon as I get all the data digested and plotted...but I can 
already tell that most of the apparent excess heat signal we saw on Run 1 
disappeared because of the new gas flowrate measurements.

Run 4, a control run with Na2CO3 electrolyte was started this afternoon.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 23:36:33 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:34:57 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject:  the cost of antimatter
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OK enough already about the CA power crisis, back to some real 
science. Someone posted this on the SVP list and I couldn't resist 
posting it.

>What if you wanted to buy some antimatter at today's prices?
>
>What would it cost and how long would it take to get it, assuming 
>money was no object?
>
>The following was excerpted from an article based on research done 
>at CERN (Center for European Nuclear Research)
>
>              ****************************
>              Pricing the Production of Antimatter
>
>Let us say that you have chosen antimatter propulsion for your 
>interstellar spaceship, and now it is time to get the fuel.
>
>Where do you turn? The manufacture of antiprotons is extremely inefficient.
>
>Techniques for creating antiprotons at the Center for European 
>Nuclear Research (CERN) require approximately two and one-half 
>million protons each accelerated to an energy of 26 GeV to create a 
>single antiproton. This amounts to an energy efficiency of 1.5 x 
>10-8.
>
>                                          There is no more
>                               energy-efficient fuel than antimatter
>
>This is further reduced by a factor of ten or so for the efficiency 
>of the proton accelerator, leaving a net efficiency of perhaps 1.5 x 
>10-9 - i.e., about one part in a billion!
>
>At a cost of five cents per kilowatt-hour of electricity, the cost 
>of ten tons of antiprotons would be 8 x 1021 U. S. dollars. The best 
>way to express this amount of money might be to say that it 
>represents the total current U. S. federal budget (approximately 
>$1.2 trillion per year) spent every year for the next seven billion 
>years.
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Free Email at http://mail.euroseek.com
>
>Get your FREE SVP catalog of 300 books, pamphlets & videos.
>
>Email your snail mail address to info svpvril.com.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 25 23:36:33 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 01:34:57 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy 
Subject: tearing up freeways
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Jed Rothwell wrote

>>
>
That's good. I know of two unfinished freeways in Washington, D.C. 
and Harrisburg, PA. I favor leaving freeways unfinished, or better 
yet tearing down existing ones.

What the hell have you been smoking? You obviously don't have to earn 
a living on the road. We need more freeways and more lanes on the 
ones we have.

My love is a freeway, hour after hour as the miles slip away.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 06:02:53 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:07:05 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> This is not real news  but if you have an invention that can be patented
> and it is in any way revolutionary there is a possibility that it will be
> locked up.
> 
> Yes there are constitutional concerns here.  However.  Security is a
> serious issue also.   The USPTO basically publishes everything.  This
> information is available world wide to anybody who knows how to look for it.



Public publishing can be just the solution to prevent a Secrecy
Order.  Below is the text of an email I received from a physicist
after posting this information.  I have deleted the author's name
since I gather he did not wish to get entangled in a vortex:

Hi Terry... I read a copy of "INVENTION SECRECY", and there is a
simple way of disabling government.  If it's published over the 
Internet in several cites, it is no longer a secret.  Before the 
Internet, publication was next to impossible in established 
journals, and newspapers or magazines who could brief them down, 
leaving basic information out that would allow government con-
trol.  But the Internet eliminates that.  Such publication must 
contain ALL factors.  If anything is left out, especially things 
that makes the item workable, then the joint chiefs of staff can 
stamp it secret. 

Such publication does not invalidate a patent application, it 
merely reinforces the strength of any patent issuing.  J.L. 
Naudin (France) and Tom Bearden (U.S.) have done just that.
Everything known about their combined effort for producing free 
energy from "Zero Point Energy" is on the web.  Data, photos and 
all.  

The U.S.Patent office has a standing rule established about 200 
years ago, that says in effect that anyone claiming production of 
energy without energy being fed in, is perpetual motion and shall 
be rejected.  

So Tom applied for a patent, and it was rejected.  Then web 
publicity hit.  Now they can force the patent office to revive 
the application, but it cannot be seized because it is no longer
a 
secret.  

Many years ago the same thing was done with one of my creations.  
The publisher had to agree to publish verbatim or reject.  They 
published and the patent issued without objection.



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:35:47 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: Definitive statement on the California power crisis
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>>. . . Most stockholders in California public utilities who have lost their
>>life
>>savings in the downdraft creatred by this crisis will not get those funds
>>restored.
>
>Of course they will! As soon as the rate-payers pony up, those utilities
>will be in great shape. Until CF blows 'em out of the water.

***{Incorrect. Persons who own stock live in an uncertain world, and they
know they can't count on the prophesies of self-styled seers such as
yourself. They recognize the following facts, even if you do not:

(1) These companies may go bust in the near future. If they do, their
stocks will never recover.

(2) Even if these companies linger on for decades, their stock prices may
never recover.

(3) Even if their stock prices do recover, it may be decades later, long
after most of those who held them prior to this crisis are dead. (After the
1929 crash, the major averages did not reach their former levels for
roughly 30 years, and did not reach their inflation adjusted levels for
roughly 50 years.)

Because utility stocks, due to their tax exempt status,  are mostly held by
elderly retirees, they are a major repository of the life savings of people
whose earning years are over, and, unfortunately, such people are not in a
position to attempt to "ride out" waterfall declines by simply hanging on
to their shares. Thus many of them sold out during the recent price
collapse, taking huge losses out of fear of incurring even greater losses
if they held on. Result: even if your prediction comes true and the shares
eventually come back, the former holders' losses will not be restored,
because they will not be the owners of the stocks when the recovery occurs.
Most of them, in fact, may be in their graves by then.

Bottom line: the footprints of our leviathan state are a trail of
irreversible human misery and death, regardless of whether you admit it or
not.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>  Persons who have sat for hours in darkened houses will not get
>>that time restored to them.
>
>Gee, that happens in Atlanta nearly every winter, and several times after
>summer lightning storms. We were out of power for one-week (count 'em,
>seven days) last year, and two-weeks another time before that. Somehow we
>survived this awful tragedy. Yes, our souls are ravaged by this fate worse
>than death, but we pick up the pieces, and we move on. As a matter of fact,
>nine months after these massive power failures, the maternity wards in
>every hospital in the city are swamped with babies, so I suspect people
>find ways to assuage the unspeakable grief and loneliness, and to reach out
>to one another . . . as it were, and to reestablish their sense of, ummm .
>. . community.

***{Those who wanted to have sex in the dark could have simply hit the
light switch and done so. No blackouts were required. Moreover, your jeers
do not alter the fact that most of the productivity lost to these blackouts
will not be restored. There are real, irreversible losses when these sorts
of events occur, and they cannot be "fixed," regardless of your
determination to believe the contrary. --MJ}***

>>  Most dairy farmers who have lost revenue due to
>>spoiled milk and cows which have dried up will not have those losses
>>restored.
>
>Most dairy farmers have enough sense to install emergency generators, or to
>rent one from a heavy equipment supplier. You see them at factories and
>food warehouses in Atlanta when the power goes out.

***{The news reports coming out of California say otherwise. One of them
which I posted the other day referred to milk being poured out due to lack
of refrigeration capability, and to cows going dry because the blackouts
rendered milking machines inoperable. Such losses are real and
irreversible, despite what you say. --MJ}***

>> >They should have started tearing down freeways in the late 60s, when it
>> >became apparent they cause more problems than they solve. We would have a
>> >viable transportation / communication network by now.
>>
>>***{Of course it's "good." You and your likes, after all, were born booted
>>and spurred, while the rest of us were born with saddles on our backs so
>>that you can ride us.
>
>(A moment of revelation strikes.) Oh God what have I done!?! Aaaagh . .
>.  Mercy, Maud.

***{No chance of that. Your mind is closed to the posibility of revelation,
where political theory is concerned. You will be an apologist for
democratic fascism until the day that its iron fist comes smashing down on
your head, at which time you will have not the slightest comprehension of
how such a thing could have ever happened. --MJ}***

>>  Who in hell are we to want to have access to
>>transportation that gives us mobility and privacy, independent of
>>government control!
>
>Like the highway system, you mean.

***{No, that is obviously *not* what I mean. Highways are not
"transportation." (Try sitting down on a highway, and see how long it takes
to move you 300 miles.) Vehicles--e.g., automobiles, trucks, SUV's, buses,
trains, etc., are transportation, not highways. --MJ}***

Completely free of government control.
>Paid for by money from Mars, I suppose. This reminds me of G. W. Bush's
>recent statements that the federal government should not act as if it is in
>charge of Social Security.
>
>Yo: Mitchell. Highways are paid for and run by the Government. A viable
>transportation / communication network, like the ones in Europe and Japan,
>are run by private railroads and private telephone companies. You favor
>PRIVATE over PUBLIC, right?

***{Yo, Jed: Wake up! Read my words: I referred to "transportation," not to
"highways." Duh!

For the record, I believe that governmentally owned highway and rail
systems ought to be privatized, in accordance with the following procedure:

(1) You turn the assets of each system (federal, state, county, city, etc.)
over to a specific corporation, issue stock to vehicle owning members of
the general public in that area, in proportion to the market value of the
vehicles that they own, and eliminate the taxes that had formerly been used
to support those various systems. Thereafter, the corporations so created
will have to raise revenue by means of user fees.

(2) You abolish all present systems of taxation, and substitute a system
where citizens vote with their tax receipts, and pay taxes according to the
sum of their self-assessed valuations of their landed property. For
example, if Sam owns ten pieces of landed property that he claims to be
worth $100,000 each, then the sum of the self-assessed valuations of his
landed property is $1 million. Thus if we suppose that the sum of the
self-assessed valuations of all the owners of all landed property in the
nation is $1 trillion, then under such a system Sam will pay
(10^6/10^12)(100) = .0001% of the cost of national government, and will
cast .0001% of the votes in national elections. And, of course, if Sam
self-assesses the value of each of the ten pieces of property that he owns
to be equal to $1 in order to lower his taxes, and if someone offers him $1
each, then he must take it, or be self-confessedly guilty of tax fraud.

Given (1) and (2), above, the problem of "natural monopolies" is solved: if
the corporation that owns the streets in a town charges ruinously high user
fees, thereby earning high profits, it will attract competitors, who will
simply enquire at the tax office, determine the self-assessed values which
have been stated for the various roads and potential rights-of-way in the
system, pick out the ones that would give ready access to the users in the
area, and purchase them, setting up a competitive company that would begin
to siphon off revenue from the "natural monopoly," thereby taking the wind
out of its sails. Result: in such an environment it would become standard
practice for holders of "natural monopolies" to live in just as much fear
of competition as do the owners of businesses in areas that have
traditionally involved large numbers of small, rapidly innovating firms.
Result: "natural monopolies" would also be forced to concentrate on
constantly improving the quality of their product and lowering its cost to
the end-user, in order to remain in business.

Bottom line: under pure capitalism, the problem of "natural monopolies" is
solved by getting the government out of those areas, rather than by getting
the government into them.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>  Far better that we should all be forced into public
>>transportation, so that muggers can sit down right next to us, so that
>>winos can puke in our laps and lice can jump from their hair into ours,
>>and, most importantly, so that we can be watched and controled by divinely
>>ordained, superior beings such as yourself.
>
>As a matter of fact, I always ride public transport myself when it is
>available, because it is faster and it costs less public money than the
>highways

***{The highway system moves orders of magnitude more traffic, so,
obviously, it costs much more. --MJ}***

, and because there is less government control. You never get a
>ticket for speeding. No one tells you can't talk on the phone or read the
>newspaper.

***{In a privatized highway system, the owners have a powerful
incentive--profits--impelling them to decongest the system by speeding up
the traffic flow. Result: in the vast majority of cases, traffic lights and
stop signs will be replaced by pairs of yield signs on the low volume sides
of intersections, and speed limits will be simply abolished. Result: the
average speed of the traffic flow in the system will vastly increase, and
the average number of cars on the road at any given time, and hence the
probability of accidents, will vastly decrease.

Bottom line: nobody in a privatized highway system will get a ticket for
speeding, or be told that they cannot talk on a cell phone while driving,
because as long as you are not involved in an accident, you will be left
alone. Result: there will be vastly fewer accidents.

--Mitchell Jones}***

No wino ever bothered me or puked in my lap. On the highways
>winos kill 15,000 people a year and injure 630,000 others. Which would you
>rather have, a wino puking on your lap, or a wino smashing into your car at
>80 miles an hour?

***{That's a false dichotomy, and, obviously, I would choose to avoid both
outcomes. Moreover, under pure capitalism, that would be an option, because
alcoholism and drug addiction are caused by conditions that would seldom
exist there. As I noted in detail the other day, under fascism and
socialism, children are raised under conditions that amount to chattel
slavery--which means: they are treated as movable articles of property,
subject to the control of others, irrespective of whether they are willing
and able to respect the property rights of others. Result: tens of millions
of children are trapped in abusive environments, in their parental homes,
in low-class neighborhoods, in schools, in juvenile facilities, in foster
homes, or in life on the streets. Result: unable to escape from their
abusers, they are forced to adjust their personalities in attempts to get
along with them. Result: they acquire seething hostilities and
anti-intellectual biases that, throughout their adult lives, act to destroy
their relationships with decent people and to prevent them from learning,
doing productive work, or developing the kind of authentic self-confidence
that follows from success. Result: to escape their inner misery, tens of
millions of them turn to drugs and alcohol. Result: tens of thousands of
highway deaths per year, in fascist or socialist nations, due to driving
while intoxicated. Under pure capitalism, however, the cause of that
carnage would not exist, and so the highway fatalaties that it produces
would not exist, either, for practical purposes.

Bottom line: under pure capitalism, I would happily cruise down private
highways at whatever speeds seemed appropriate to the conditions, talking
on the phone when I needed to, all without fear of being hassled by cops,
or killed by drunk drivers.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>(I asked that before, and Jones did not answer. He will evade the question
>again, but it is amusing to ask.)

***{I don't recall your asking that before, but then I don't read most of
the stuff you post, so it is possible that I missed it. In any event, all
of the comments you made in your previous two paragraphs are a result of
your failure to project an alternative to the present system, and bespeak
nothing save your ignorance of what freedom is and entails. --MJ}***

>No drunk on the street or subway has ever bothered me or any friend or
>family member as far as I know

***{As I have mentioned here before, I actually saw a wino puke in a
horrified woman's lap, back during my college days, when I was in the habit
of occasionally riding on government transportation. --MJ}***

, whereas my aunt was run down and killed by
>a drunk behind the wheel. That's a lifelong tragedy. Having a wino puke on
>your lap is NOTHING compared to having your aunt pulverized.

***{Both the puke in the woman's lap and your pulverized aunt were
consequences of the same cause: the leviathan government that you love so
much. --MJ}***

You can always
>punch the wino in the nose and wipe the puke off your lap. A grown-up with
>a sense of humor does not let minor stuff like that bother him, after a
>change of clothes. Even a mugging is no big deal -- I've survived 'em.

***{Most muggings are perpetrated by addicts who are attempting to support
a drug habit that would be legal under pure capitalism and, as a result,
would cost far less than most tobacco smokers currently spend on
cigarettes. Bottom line: most muggings are caused by the system you
advocate, and would not happen under the system I advocate. --MJ}***

>Drunk drivers kill as many people as all the muggers and murderers in the
>U.S. -- on trains, in houses, and everywhere.

***{Yep, and the underlying cause lies in the system you advocate. --MJ}***

In 1999 there were 15,500
>homicides and 15,935 people killed by drunk drivers.
>
>See:
>
>http://www.census.gov/statab/www/part2.html
>
>http://www.madd.org/stats/gen98js.SHTML
>
>Highways are slow, inefficient, frustrating, and obsolete.

***{Rubbish. The problems--e.g., highway congestion--are caused by big
government, and would be fixed if America were simply to become the country
it almost was and, by rights, should have been. The benefits of highways,
on the other hand, are that they provide individuals with private, secure,
motorized access to virtually any point of interest in the country, at
routes, times, and speeds chosen by the user rather than by transit
authorities. Until the advent of antigravity skycars, personal space
vehicles, or something similar, they will be unarguably the most reasonable
choice, in the vast majority of cases. --Mitchell Jones}***

You are worried
>about people "not getting their lives back" after they "lose" a few hours
>in a power outage? How much time do you think commuters waste? It averages
>about a half-hour per day in Atlanta multiplied by the entire adult
>population. THIS is the system you defend

***{No, pure capitalism is the system I defend. It is the cure for all
social ills, including highway congestion, as noted above. On the other
hand, the system you defend--leviathan government that is free to violate
property rights "in the public interest"--is the *cause* of all social
ills. --MJ}***

, and this is what you say you
>want more of -- a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem! We can
>fix it. We can do better. Private industry could do wonders, but not as
>long closed-minded, conservative fools like you force the government to
>spend billions of dollars of tax money on an obsolete solution that never
>did work, and never will.

***{I am not a conservative, as you would have noticed by now, if there had
been as much activity in your brain as there always is in your mouth.
--MJ}***

>- Jed

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 07:23:24 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:21:56 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: A place to take the political discussions
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science-political
no, no,  not political science...
Need to take the political discussion off of the science
list?  Here is where you can take it.

Designed to prevent venting on the more proper lists.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/science-political


Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 09:45:37 2001
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Subject: Upcoming NRL report
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Jones Beene wrote:

> > An upcoming report from the U.S. Navy covering some recent work by American
> > scientists with 100 percent reproducible palladium boron alloys was
> > announced at American Nuclear Society conference, November 12-16, 2000...
> > If you would be interested...
>
>Do you by any chance have this report in digital form that
>you could post as an attachment?

Knowing Mel Miles, I expect it will be available on paper only. He has not 
mailed out anything yet. I am on the distribution list, I will post a note 
here when the report arrives.

We can always ask him for an electronic copy. He might be willing to 
provide one.

- Jed

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At 11:00 PM 1/25/1, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>The problem with this arrangement is that hydrogen diffuses significantly
>faster through this long tube than does oxygen.  The result is that the
>composition of the gas in the tube is significantly enriched in
>oxygen...JUST BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT TRANSIT TIMES.
[snip]

It continually surprises me how difficult it is to write with clarity, with
unabiguity.  Participating in a list like this has shown me continually
that what I think I have written is not exactly what I thought it was.  I
seldom use enough words or even the right words.  For example (see quotes
below related to the above)  "over the course of the analysis" should have
read "over the course of the analysis of a single compartment full."  and
"which BTW would also preferentially retard oxygen" should have read "which
BTW would also preferentially retard oxygen, so make it as short as
possible, as wide as possible, or eliminate it"  In the second example I am
trying to show there are two conflicting principles at work, and by use of
the word "however" that the second wins out.  This is so weak as to not
even communicate.  I should come right out and say both what I think is
likely  and what I don't think is likely.  However, when I go to the
trouble to add information for clarification, it often only confuses
things.  For example, when I add "(I assume the only kind that CAN be
there)" I botch things even more. I meant "(I assume the only kinds of
APERTUREs that CAN be there)"  not "(I assume the only kind OF LEAKS that
CAN be there.)"

It is frustrating to feel you have an understanding of something, and
possibly the answer to a problem, and not be able to communicate it
effectively and completely.

In another post I wrote "a fact that can be easily verified" when I should
have written, "a fact that can be easily verified, so try it."   I really
enjoy reading authors like Jed, who write with such clarity, and often say
both what they mean and what they don't mean, and from whom words come in
fluid abundance.  It's no wonder I never did well in English!  On the other
hand, participating in this list has been a wonderful english lesson.
Sorry for the burden it has been those who have bothered to read my stuff!
I especially regret not having invested in a spell checker.  I'm still
runnning on Eudora light, 1.5, and don't really want to upgrade to a new
piggy version, even if it would run on my old Mac.  I also have a huge
archive I need to migrate to any new email program's format as well, and
would hope to have similar search facilities as Eudora provides.  It
probably won't happen until I have to go to the trouble of a major upgrade,
maybe to linux.


At 9:56 AM 1/18/1, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 11:56 AM 1/18/1, Scott Little wrote:
>
>>Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a
>>way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the
>>high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things
>>like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the
>>present effect.
>
>
>You could use an intermediate buffer compartment, e.g. a syringe, which
>would be filled and then completely injected into the RGA over the course
>of the analysis. The average would then be correct. The ouput valve would
>be a neele valve, but the input valve could be wide open, to the full
>diameter of the supply line (which BTW would also preferentially retard
>oxygen) when the compartment is initially filled because the output valve
>would be closed or not flowing at a high rate.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


At 4:19 PM 1/18/1, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 10:40 AM 1/19/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>If the valve is enhancing the H2 over the O2, and the H2 is already being
>>reported as too low (i.e. you should be getting at least 2 H2 for each O2,
>>and you are only getting ~1.3), then doesn't this mean that the real H2:O2
>>ratio is even further out of whack than you initially thought?
>
>
>Gee, if, ignoring the valves for a moment, there are small aperture leaks
>in the system (I assume the only kind that CAN be there) then the hydrogen
>will escape preferentially, giving the higher O2 level at the valve, which
>was observed.  However, since the concentration of H2 increases with run
>time, also observed, then that points more toward consumption of a resource
>in the cell to make a compound.  There could be a combination of factors at
>work.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 10:10:13 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:06:52 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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See:

http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/electcar0125.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 10:50:57 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:40:29 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: IT/Ginger film footage!!
In-Reply-To: 
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M. Truzzi found this site:

  http://www.idleworm.com/spoofs/ginger.htm


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 11:11:08 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:01:31 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: H:O ratio problems
In-Reply-To: 
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Horace:

I had made note on another list in a discussion about fuel cells for the home.

There is a transportation problem here because H2 gas will weep directly 
through an underground pipeline.  Actually a significant amount of H2 would 
soak into underground pockets creating a safety problem.  I do not know how 
to measure this.


At 08:52 AM 1/26/01 -0900, you wrote:
>At 11:00 PM 1/25/1, Scott Little wrote:
>[snip]
> >The problem with this arrangement is that hydrogen diffuses significantly
> >faster through this long tube than does oxygen.  The result is that the
> >composition of the gas in the tube is significantly enriched in
> >oxygen...JUST BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT TRANSIT TIMES.
>[snip]
>
>It continually surprises me how difficult it is to write with clarity, with
>unabiguity.  Participating in a list like this has shown me continually
>that what I think I have written is not exactly what I thought it was.  I
>seldom use enough words or even the right words.  For example (see quotes
>below related to the above)  "over the course of the analysis" should have
>read "over the course of the analysis of a single compartment full."  and
>"which BTW would also preferentially retard oxygen" should have read "which
>BTW would also preferentially retard oxygen, so make it as short as
>possible, as wide as possible, or eliminate it"  In the second example I am
>trying to show there are two conflicting principles at work, and by use of
>the word "however" that the second wins out.  This is so weak as to not
>even communicate.  I should come right out and say both what I think is
>likely  and what I don't think is likely.  However, when I go to the
>trouble to add information for clarification, it often only confuses
>things.  For example, when I add "(I assume the only kind that CAN be
>there)" I botch things even more. I meant "(I assume the only kinds of
>APERTUREs that CAN be there)"  not "(I assume the only kind OF LEAKS that
>CAN be there.)"
>
>It is frustrating to feel you have an understanding of something, and
>possibly the answer to a problem, and not be able to communicate it
>effectively and completely.
>
>In another post I wrote "a fact that can be easily verified" when I should
>have written, "a fact that can be easily verified, so try it."   I really
>enjoy reading authors like Jed, who write with such clarity, and often say
>both what they mean and what they don't mean, and from whom words come in
>fluid abundance.  It's no wonder I never did well in English!  On the other
>hand, participating in this list has been a wonderful english lesson.
>Sorry for the burden it has been those who have bothered to read my stuff!
>I especially regret not having invested in a spell checker.  I'm still
>runnning on Eudora light, 1.5, and don't really want to upgrade to a new
>piggy version, even if it would run on my old Mac.  I also have a huge
>archive I need to migrate to any new email program's format as well, and
>would hope to have similar search facilities as Eudora provides.  It
>probably won't happen until I have to go to the trouble of a major upgrade,
>maybe to linux.
>
>
>At 9:56 AM 1/18/1, Horace Heffner wrote:
> >At 11:56 AM 1/18/1, Scott Little wrote:
> >
> >>Anybody got any ideas for fixing this sampling problem?  What's needed is a
> >>way to restrict the flow of gas from the sample chamber into the
> >>high-vacuum chamber where the RGA resides that is NOT dependent on things
> >>like molecular size, gas density, viscosity, etc. that must be causing the
> >>present effect.
> >
> >
> >You could use an intermediate buffer compartment, e.g. a syringe, which
> >would be filled and then completely injected into the RGA over the course
> >of the analysis. The average would then be correct. The ouput valve would
> >be a neele valve, but the input valve could be wide open, to the full
> >diameter of the supply line (which BTW would also preferentially retard
> >oxygen) when the compartment is initially filled because the output valve
> >would be closed or not flowing at a high rate.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner
>
>
>At 4:19 PM 1/18/1, Horace Heffner wrote:
> >At 10:40 AM 1/19/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >
> >>If the valve is enhancing the H2 over the O2, and the H2 is already being
> >>reported as too low (i.e. you should be getting at least 2 H2 for each O2,
> >>and you are only getting ~1.3), then doesn't this mean that the real H2:O2
> >>ratio is even further out of whack than you initially thought?
> >
> >
> >Gee, if, ignoring the valves for a moment, there are small aperture leaks
> >in the system (I assume the only kind that CAN be there) then the hydrogen
> >will escape preferentially, giving the higher O2 level at the valve, which
> >was observed.  However, since the concentration of H2 increases with run
> >time, also observed, then that points more toward consumption of a resource
> >in the cell to make a compound.  There could be a combination of factors at
> >work.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Horace Heffner
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 11:40:42 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:26:55 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: California to Pull Plug on ZEV Requirements
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I reluctantly agree with the decision to suspend ZEV requirements. I wish 
they would substitute mandates -- or better yet rewards -- for hybrid 
vehicles instead.

This article makes an important point. Quote:

. . . the air benefits from electric cars are minimal. That's because 
two-thirds of cars in California -- the newer, well-tuned models -- produce 
only 10 percent of smog from vehicles. The dirtiest 1 percent produce 30 
percent of the smog from vehicles . . .

The people most likely to buy expensive electric cars are those who already 
own newer, cleaner gasoline cars, he said. Rather than establishing subsidy 
programs to encourage people to buy electric, the state should expand 
programs to get rid of the dirtiest 1 percent of cars, such as voluntary 
buybacks, which pay owners $1,000 or more for their pre-1980 cars.

[End Quote]

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 11:41:29 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:30:40 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: IT/Ginger film footage!!
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
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I love it!

U Must C: http://www.idleworm.com/spoofs/ginger.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 11:55:08 2001
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Cc: , 
Subject: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Powered Car
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:39:38 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Try this one, Gene.

 http://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/dec97/car1.html

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 12:27:19 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:10:21 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: H:O ratio problems
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At 08:52 AM 1/26/01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>It continually surprises me how difficult it is to write with clarity, with
>unabiguity.


Don't feel bad, Horace.  You are usually pretty clear...and, in this case, 
you  probably would've needed a 2x4 to get the point across to me at that 
time...:)

> >Gee, if, ignoring the valves for a moment, there are small aperture leaks
> >in the system (I assume the only kind that CAN be there) then the hydrogen
> >will escape preferentially, giving the higher O2 level at the valve, which
> >was observed.

I certainly read this...but I assumed you were talking about leaks...and I 
didn't realize (as I do now) that your point also applies to the one 
aperture that is necessarily in the system...the vent to atmosphere.


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 12:38:53 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:21:52 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: IT/Ginger film footage!!
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On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I love it!
> 
> U Must C: http://www.idleworm.com/spoofs/ginger.htm


Too late I found that it works much better as a hoax if you don't see
"SPOOFS" in the URL.  The link to the flash animation itself is: 

  FILM FOOTAGE OF AN EARLY IT/GINGER TEST:
  http://216.219.239.117/flash/Ginger01.swf


There's "ROFL".   Then there's "LSHIWMP"


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-789-0775          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 13:35:19 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:58:58 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Automobile alternative idea - looks screwy but may not be
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This is the kind of thing that sounds screwy but may deserve a second look.

"The Monomobile is a lightweight electric car that attaches to a suspended 
monorail for long distance trips and is capable of running independent of 
the track for local trips"

The big improvement here is highway capacity, and the consequent reduction 
of rush hour traffic.

See:

http://www.iac.net/~ard/

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 13:40:20 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jan 26, 2001
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:16:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" 
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Jan 01   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: THE ONLY THING FLYING IS THE COST.  After two
consecutive failed tests (WN 14 Jul 00, WN 21 Jan 00) and a
recent decision to delay the next test until June (WN 12 Jan 01),
Boeing added $4 billion to the cost of NMD.  The program now
includes four more tests, for a total of twenty.  The tests "may"
(read "won't unless pressured") incorporate more sophisticated
countermeasures than originally planned, a requirement the APS
has been calling for (WN 12 May 00).  The new $24.4 billion
estimate may still be too low.  The Congressional Budget Office
estimates $60 billion and the Pentagon calculates another $20
billion for maintenance.  And that's just the cost of the ground-
based system.  The Bush proposal calls for sea and air
knickknacks that could add another $100 billion to the total.

2. SCIENCE AND MATH EDUCATION: BIG TALK, LITTLE SUBSTANCE.
Education has been the talk of Washington this week, but with the
focus on a "reading first" agenda, science learning may suffer.
Announcing his education reform plan on Tuesday, Bush followed
the lead of his CEO advisors (WN 5 Jan 01) declaring science and
mathematics "the very subjects most likely to affect our future
competitiveness." Unfortunately, his proposals don't quite
reflect this. They eliminate dedicated funds for math and science
teacher professional development at the local district level,
block granting the funds for general education purposes instead.
And although the Bush plan calls on states to "set challenging
standards in history and science," it does not require science
testing. A recent Washington State study shows that state testing
in reading and math has reduced the priority for teaching
science. An alternative education package introduced by Senator
Joe Lieberman (D-CT) also absorbs science and math funds into
block grants, but does include science in required testing
programs. Other legislation in play includes the science and math
education bills of Vern Ehlers (R-MI) and Rush Holt(D-NJ).

3. CLIMATE CHANGE: IPCC SAYS IT'S GETTING EVEN HOTTER.  Just five
years after warning that the Earth will warm six degrees over the
next century, the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
concluded that the rise is human-induced and added four more
degrees to the prediction.  WN prediction: conservative groups
will open fire on the IPCC.  But, so long as both sides stick to
the scientific process, the debate serves as a powerful
motivation for better climate research.

4. DEUTCH PARDONED.  There couldn't be more disparity in the
treatment of Los Alamos weapons scientist Wen Ho Lee and former
CIA director John Deutch.  Deutch, who plead guilty to
downloading nuclear secrets onto his home computer, received a
pardon in the closing minute of the Clinton Administration.
                                                         
THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY (Note: Opinions are the author's
and are not necessarily shared by the APS, but they should be.)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 14:54:49 2001
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From: "Colin Quinney" 
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Subject: Re: Automobile alternative idea - looks screwy but may not be
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Hi Jed,

The concept is good, imo.

But it needs a lightweight battery.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010125/nv_power_t.html

"Thursday January 25, 12:05 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
Power Technology, Inc. Announces New Battery Test Results
Power Technology's Grid Structure Delivers Higher Charge Capacity
LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 25, 2001--Power Technology, Inc.
(OTCBB:PWTC - news), today announced that BC Research, Inc.'s (BCRI)
Chemical and Environmental Process Group, located in Vancouver, BC, has just
released the results of their latest experiments and the results obtained
using Power Technology's patented reticulated lead foams employed in flooded
lead-acid batteries.

These experiments were performed to assess the performance of Power
Technology's ``second generation'' reticulated foam in direct comparison
with the grid design currently used in conventional flooded, single cell
lead-acid batteries.

Critical measurement criteria, such as delivered capacity; specific energy
and specific power, were normalized based upon the paste weight in order to
carry out a straightforward comparison with the data obtained by using other
pastes such as Bipolar Power's proprietary lead-acid battery paste.


TEST RESULTS
                 Discharge      Actual       Specific      Specific
                 "C" rate      Capacity       Energy         Power
                             Ah/Kg paste    Wh/Kg paste    W/Kg paste
                 ---------   -----------    -----------    ----------
PWTC's
Reticulated
Grid               2.75h         19.1           35.2          13.0

Standard grid      2.40h          6.2           11.2           4.2


Correspondingly, the charging capacity per total initial paste weight was
about 90% higher for Power Technology's foam, e.g.: 20.8 Ah/Kg paste as
compared to only 10.9 Ah/Kg paste for the standard grid. This increase in
charging capacity per paste weight represents an important step forward for
the Company's second-generation grid structure.

Test results further indicated that Power Technology's reticulated
structure, because of its high specific area, allows for a significantly
higher charge capacity than a standard grid of similar geometric area.

Furthermore, the advantage of Power's reticulated lead structure lies not
only in its ability to hold a larger quantity of paste but also in the
intricate interaction between the three-dimensional grid matrix and the
applied paste.

In its testing, B.C.R.I. employed a novel float charging protocol, modified
from standard industry practice. Using this new approach, B.C.R.I. found
that standard charging techniques ``undercharged'' Power Technology's
reticulated grid. The resulting charging protocol is referred to as the
``extended two-step float charge.'' The standard grid could not withstand
the modified charging technique.

Power Technology's reticulated battery, when charged using this extended
two-step float charge method, provided the following data:

     Discharge   Actual Capacity    Specific Energy    Specific Power
     "C" rate      Wh/Kg-paste        Wh/Kg-paste        W/Kg-paste

       3.8h            26.4                 52.7                   13.1

Commented Lee Balak, Power Technology's President and Chief Executive
Officer, ``We are energized and excited by these latest test findings. We
are continuing to investigate and develop additional ways of increasing the
power-to-energy ratio to 20w/Wh in order to meet the requirements of the
hybrid and electric vehicle market. We will focus our efforts towards
manufacturing the reticulated structure by alternative methods so as to
compete head-on with the more exotic chemistries.''

Power Technology, Inc is a Las Vegas-based technology development company,
which holds several patents in the power generation and power storage
fields, and is working to provide innovative and practical battery
technology solutions for commercial, government, and industrial applications
worldwide.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 3:58 PM
Subject: Automobile alternative idea - looks screwy but may not be


> This is the kind of thing that sounds screwy but may deserve a second
look.
>
> "The Monomobile is a lightweight electric car that attaches to a suspended
> monorail for long distance trips and is capable of running independent of
> the track for local trips"
>
> The big improvement here is highway capacity, and the consequent reduction
> of rush hour traffic.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.iac.net/~ard/
>
> - Jed


Best Regards,
Colin Quinney

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 19:58:05 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
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Subject: [VxB] RE: California to Pull Plug on ZEV Requirements
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 10:53:54 +0700
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Thus smog is a direct effect of lower-income
 people who cannot afford the best.
Outlaw lower-income people, maybe ?
Or improve their ability to afford
 cleaner transport ?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> Sent: 2001 January 27, Saturday 02:27
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: California to Pull Plug on ZEV Requirements
>
>
> I reluctantly agree with the decision to suspend ZEV requirements. I wish
> they would substitute mandates -- or better yet rewards -- for hybrid
> vehicles instead.
>
> This article makes an important point. Quote:
>
> . . . the air benefits from electric cars are minimal. That's because
> two-thirds of cars in California -- the newer, well-tuned models
> -- produce
> only 10 percent of smog from vehicles. The dirtiest 1 percent produce 30
> percent of the smog from vehicles . . .
>
> The people most likely to buy expensive electric cars are those
> who already
> own newer, cleaner gasoline cars, he said. Rather than
> establishing subsidy
> programs to encourage people to buy electric, the state should expand
> programs to get rid of the dirtiest 1 percent of cars, such as voluntary
> buybacks, which pay owners $1,000 or more for their pre-1980 cars.
>
> [End Quote]
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 26 20:46:11 2001
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:44:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Schaffer 
Subject: Re: H:O ratio problems
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Although this thread is finished, I want to add some comments. 

The RGA electron source is probably an incadescent filament. If so,
it will ignite some of the H2 + O2 into H2O. Similarly, it will
ignite CO + O2 into CO2. At the low pressures in the RGA chamber
there is no flame propagation, AFAIK, so most of the gas probably
escapes this fate. My point is that, when molecules are involved,
both the filament and the bombarding electrons drive many chemical
reactions, so a "zoo" of species of different masses is produced. The
instruction manual should have discussed this problem. 

RGAs are mainly used to monitor the state of vacuum systems. They can
sometimes unambiguously identify gaseous species in the system. Most
often they are used in a qualitative way, to determine whether the
vacuum system has changed or not from past condition(s).

However, if the system contains only atomic gases, or just a couple
of simple molecular gases, then an RGA can identify the species
quantitatively.



=====
Michael J. Schaffer



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. 
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 27 08:55:15 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: [VxB] RE: California to Pull Plug on ZEV Requirements
In-Reply-To: <000301c08814$c4c14da0$cb30fea9 xplornote>
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xplorer wrote:

>Thus smog is a direct effect of lower-income
>  people who cannot afford the best.
>Outlaw lower-income people, maybe ?
>Or improve their ability to afford
>  cleaner transport ?

The best proposal is described in the article I quoted: "voluntary 
buybacks, which pay owners $1,000 or more for their pre-1980 cars." That is 
enough money to make a downpayment on a late-model used car, which will 
pollute less than the pre-1980 clunker.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 27 16:16:49 2001
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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 19:17:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer 
To: Vortex 
Subject: Hello Vo...  This is a test to see if you are out there
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	Ho!  Hello!

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From: "xplorer" 
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" 
Subject: ? Testing Isotope Shift
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:03:01 +0700
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So I have a few grams of Ag
 which should now be contaminated
 by Pd107.

[Yes Horace, I remembered to
 have a control for this experiment]

How do I check for the difference between
 Ag107 and Pd107 ?

I have a contact at CORE laboratories
 who has suggested X-ray Flourescence,
 but judging from his comments
 and background I am not sure he
 fully understands what it is
 that needs to be determined.

cheers from the lab...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 27 17:42:12 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:37:06 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  xplorer's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:03:01 +0700:

>
>So I have a few grams of Ag
> which should now be contaminated
> by Pd107.
>
>[Yes Horace, I remembered to
> have a control for this experiment]
>
>How do I check for the difference between
> Ag107 and Pd107 ?
[snip]
You need at least 33000 volt electrons to convert Ag107 into Pd107, which is
then slightly radioactive, spitting the electrons back out at you, as it
converts slowly back to Ag107.

IOW if you don't detect any betas, you don't have any Pd107.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

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From: "xplorer" 
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Subject: RE: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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Given the difficulty of detecting Betas,
 do you think I could detect them by
 putting a probe on the material in question
 (chunk of silver) and looking for positive
 spikes as they are emitted ?

It doesn't seem like this would work
 as the spike would be capacitively quenched
 by the bulk of material,
 but I have to ask as I don't believe I have
 any method for seeing Betas.

Another idea I will attempt is
 to wrap the sample in a thin film of plastic
 with aluminium foil shroud, looking for
 negative spikes on the relatively small foil.

My geiger tube seems to be rather inappropriately
 shaped for detecting Betas...


> From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
> Sent: 2001 January 28, Sunday 08:37
> Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
> 
> In reply to  xplorer's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:03:01 +0700:
> 
>x<

> >How do I check for the difference between
> > Ag107 and Pd107 ?
> [snip]
> You need at least 33000 volt electrons to convert Ag107 into 
> Pd107, which is
> then slightly radioactive, spitting the electrons back out at you, as it
> converts slowly back to Ag107.
> 
> IOW if you don't detect any betas, you don't have any Pd107.


curious

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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 23:50:25 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki 
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Subject: a little off topic: two atomic bombs & more
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Jan. 28, 2001

Vortex,

Drudge reports on a Telegraph news item that S. Hussein reportedly now
has two atomic weapons and on the way to more.
There has been a nuclear power 'imbalance' in the region ever since
Israel secretly developed their nuclear arsenal many years back. Now,
Iraq seems to have completed two atomic weapons and is programmed for
more. This is according to a military engineer defector who had a part
in the development.
So what issues does the world have in other 'unbalances' that need to be
"justifiably corrected" by any means, stealth or violence?
Asia now has Pakistan, India, & China with their nuclear weapons of
"justice". Perhaps North Korea too? And development of delivery systems
beyond and better than 'Next Day' by FedEx, UPS, and USPostOffice are
being pushed by all. Are they all trying to emulate the U.S,?
I think the environmentalists have to constructively expand their green
earth agenda to just stopping peaceful developments of energy. A bomb is
such a sudden thing.

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 27 22:58:25 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 17:57:06 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  xplorer's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:13:36 +0700:

>
>Given the difficulty of detecting Betas,
> do you think I could detect them by
> putting a probe on the material in question
> (chunk of silver) and looking for positive
> spikes as they are emitted ?

No, the signal would be too small.

>
>It doesn't seem like this would work
> as the spike would be capacitively quenched
> by the bulk of material,
> but I have to ask as I don't believe I have
> any method for seeing Betas.
>
>Another idea I will attempt is
> to wrap the sample in a thin film of plastic
> with aluminium foil shroud, looking for
> negative spikes on the relatively small foil.

Same problem.
>
>My geiger tube seems to be rather inappropriately
> shaped for detecting Betas...

?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 28 03:31:44 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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At 12:37 PM 1/28/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>You need at least 33000 volt electrons to convert Ag107 into Pd107, which is
>then slightly radioactive, spitting the electrons back out at you, as it
>converts slowly back to Ag107.
>
>IOW if you don't detect any betas, you don't have any Pd107.

You could dissolve some sample in nitric acid.  Then neutralize with NaOH
and put a drop (or less)  in a liquid scintillation counter vial (very
cheap).  You might then be able to get a University pharmacology department
to count a sample for free.

Another possibility is to hammer out a foil sample and place it against
film for a long time to see if you get any exposure.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 28 07:42:20 2001
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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 09:43:02 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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At 08:03 AM 1/28/2001 +0700, xplorer wrote:

>So I have a few grams of Ag
>  which should now be contaminated
>  by Pd107.
>
>How do I check for the difference between
>  Ag107 and Pd107 ?

Horace and Robin are right, I think.  Detecting small amounts of a 
radioactive substance is generally more sensitively done using the 
radiation it emits rather than any direct analytical technique such as XRF.

In this case, let's consider a 1 gram sample of Ag-107 contaminated with 10 
ppm of Pd-107.  Using the half-life of 6,500,000 years, you can calculate 
that  190 betas/sec should be emitted by that sample (assuming 1 
beta/decay).  That should be a relatively easy radiation signal to measure 
whereas the analysis of 10 ppm Pd in a Ag matrix is quite a stretch for 
XRF.  Other analytical techniques, such as atomic emission spectroscopy 
might work reasonably well in this case, however.

In this case, because of the rather long half-life, the two methods are at 
least still competitive.  In other cases, where the half-life is much 
shorter,  the analytical methods cannot compete at all with the radiation 
signature method.

Horace's liquid scintillation method is probably the most sensitive way to 
check your sample for beta emission but, if you have a thin-window GM 
counter (these betas won't get thru a typical metal-tube GM counter's 
wall)...with a large area flat window, I'd be inclined to try spreading out 
the material into a thin layer (so the betas can get out) and place the 
GM-tube window very close to the sample layer.  Make several 100 second 
counts with and without the sample in position (don't move the 
GM-tube).  There should be a noticeable difference in count if the sample 
has 10 ppm Pd-107.

An ideal instrument for this test is the Inspector, available from:

http://www.medcom.com/inspect.htm

cheaper and just as good fundamentally is the RM-60 from Aware:

http://www.aw-el.com/index.htm


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 28 11:10:51 2001
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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:01:21 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: RE: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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>Given the difficulty of detecting Betas,
> do you think I could detect them by
> putting a probe on the material in question
> (chunk of silver) and looking for positive
> spikes as they are emitted ?
>
>It doesn't seem like this would work
> as the spike would be capacitively quenched
> by the bulk of material,
> but I have to ask as I don't believe I have
> any method for seeing Betas.

***{A Geiger counter can detect a single beta. A Geiger-Mueller tube is a
gas-filled ionization chamber containing two metal plates at opposite
sides, across which a very high voltage is applied. When a beta- particle
(electron) passes through the probe window, the intense electric field
immediately accelerates it toward the positive plate, and, because of the
high applied voltage, the electron will in a typical case acquire enough
energy before its next collision so that it will be able to knock an
additional electron loose from the first atom it strikes. And so now we
have two electrons and one positive ion, with the positive ion immediately
being accelerated toward the negative plate and the two electrons being
accelerated toward the negative plate, and so the event repeats: two
electron-ion pairs become four; four become eight; eight become sixteen;
and so on. In short, one beta unleashes a cascade of electron-ion pairs
that soon numbers in the millions and, because many of the ejected
electrons are from inner shells, the filling of those vacated slots causes
secondary x-rays to be generated--which means: the electron cascade started
by *one* beta particle spreads to fill the entire ionization chamber. Since
the free electrons are vastly less massive than the positive ions from
which they were separated, they move quickly toward the positive plate, and
drain out of the ionization chamber, producing a massive and easily
detectible electrical pulse. At that point the chamber is filled with the
slow-moving positive ions. That means the charge on the positive plate has
migrated across the chamber and the potential difference is now
concentrated in a microscopically thin region just above the surface of the
negative plate. Result: if a beta enters the chamber now, no cascade will
be triggered, because there is no electric field in the chamber to
accelerate any electron that is knocked loose. Instead, each positive ion
must queue up to the negative plate and be handed an electron, so that the
electric field can spread back across the chamber again. Until that
happens, the Geiger-Mueller chamber will be totally desensitized.

The implication is that the Geiger-Mueller tube is extraordinarily
sensitive to the first beta (or alpha, or x-ray, or gamma) that it receives
after the quenching effect of the positive ions from the previous detection
has been dissipated, and is utterly insensitive both during the
pulse-generating electron cascade that follows, and during the resetting
interval when the positive ions are queuing up at the negative plate to be
handed electrons. While the *average* sensitivity of the Geiger-Mueller
tube is vastly less than its sensitivity to the first emission that passes
through after it has reset itself, that does not matter in situations where
the average time interval between detectible emissions is much longer than
the interval of insensitivity of the detector. Since your application seems
likely to fall into the latter category, a Geiger counter should answer the
question you are asking. In other words, if your Geiger-counter probe does
not register betas from your sample, it is probably because your sample
isn't producing any betas. (Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. :-)

--Mitchell Jones}***

>Another idea I will attempt is
> to wrap the sample in a thin film of plastic
> with aluminium foil shroud, looking for
> negative spikes on the relatively small foil.
>
>My geiger tube seems to be rather inappropriately
> shaped for detecting Betas...

***{How so? What prevents you from placing the sample right up against the
probe window? Could it be that you are using one of the very old, 50's
vintage,  government-surplus geiger counters?

In any case, modern integrated circuit Geiger counters would seem to be
ideal instruments for the sort of purpose you are describing, where the
emissions of interest may be occurring at very low rates, and are coming
from a known source in an accessible environment. Some even have separate
probe windows for the detection of different types of emissions, giving
users the capability to position the sample next to the appropriate window,
and thus determine not merely that emissions are taking place, but what
kind of emissions. See, for example, http://www.aw-el.com/.

See also http://www.medcom.com/rad50.htm.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>> From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
>> Sent: 2001 January 28, Sunday 08:37
>> Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
>>
>> In reply to  xplorer's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:03:01 +0700:
>>
>>x<
>
>> >How do I check for the difference between
>> > Ag107 and Pd107 ?
>> [snip]
>> You need at least 33000 volt electrons to convert Ag107 into
>> Pd107, which is
>> then slightly radioactive, spitting the electrons back out at you, as it
>> converts slowly back to Ag107.
>>
>> IOW if you don't detect any betas, you don't have any Pd107.
>
>
>curious

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 00:13:20 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 02:11:41 -0600
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From: thomas malloy 
Subject: Alexander Frolov
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I met the Russian physicist Alexander Frolov through our mutual 
interest in FE machines. His website at http://alexfrolov.narod.ru , 
contains some very interesting articles by Russian academics. 
Alexander has several research projects that he would like to get 
funded. The amounts he is asking for are so low by American standards 
they make me laugh. He is an expert on data transmission systems, and 
is open to job offers. He wants to know what happened to Takashai's 
electrical moped, I told him that I got quite excited about the moped 
when I first heard the story, however the effect that produced the 
surplus energy was at best temporary. The last I heard about it, the 
moped no longer ran itself, and was for sale, His email address is 
alex frolov.spb.ru, a2509@yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 05:42:23 2001
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Message-ID: <3A756F03.1272F3E3 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:24:19 +0200
From: hamdi ucar 
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Subject: Transformation of chemical elements during electric discharge 
 (physics/0101089)
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0101089

From: Kukushkin A.B. 
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:12:11 GMT   (492kb)

Observation of transformation of chemical elements during electric discharge

Authors: L.I. Urutskoev, V.I. Liksonov ("RECOM" RRC "Kurchatov Institute") V.G. Tsinoev (RRC
"Kurchatov Institute")
Comments: 19 pages, 16 figures
Report-no: RECOM-2000-1
Subj-class: Plasma Physics; Chemical Physics
Journal-ref: Prikladnaya Fizika (Applied Physics, in Russian), 2000, vol.4, pp. 83-100

     Results of experimental studies of electric explosion, in water, of foils made of extremely
     pure materials are presented. New chemical elements detected both by spectroscopic
     measurements during the electric discharge and by a mass-spectrometer analysis of
     sediments after the discharge have been found to appear. A "strange" radiation associated
     with the transformation of chemical elements has been registered. A hypothesis has been
     put forward that particles of the "strange" radiation have magnetic charge.

Regards,
hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 07:56:50 2001
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 2001 Micro-Nano Technology Conference, Hilton Head Island
(MSM/ICCN)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:05:13 -0500
From: ACRS Email News
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To: aki ix.netcom.com

Read this announcement, and pass it on to any interested parties.
Thank you for your participation and assistance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* 2001 APPLIED COMPUTATIONAL RESEARCH SOCIETY JOINT MEETING 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Applied Computational Research Society Joint Meeting
-Modeling and Simulation of Microsystems (MSM 2001)
-International Conference on Computational Nano Science (ICCN 2001)

March 19-21 2001, Hilton Oceanfront Resort, Hilton Head Island, SC, USA
http://www.cr.org

The joint conferences, MSM and ICCN, provide the largest forum and
exhibition worldwide, exploring advanced computational efforts applied
in nanotechnology and microsystems.   The three-day, five parallel track
sessions provide focused presentations on the rapidly advancing
computational and numerical efforts in the overlapping application areas
of:

International Conference on Computational Nano Science (ICCN 2001)
-Computational Biology; Molecular, Protein, Structural, Informatics...
-Computational Chemistry; Combinatorial, Polymers, Quantum, Solid State
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The full program for both conferences viewable at: http://www.cr.org

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* PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTS
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-William Goddard-CalTech (Speaker/Chair)
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-John Gilbert-Coventor (Speaker)
-George Karniadakis-Brown-Univ. (Speaker)
-Steven Levitan-Univ. of Pittsburgh (Speaker)
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* WORKSHOPS AND SPECIAL SESSIONS
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-Jacob White-MIT (Simulation Techniques)
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-Dragica Vasilesca-ASU (Quantum Devices)
-Steffen Hardt - IMM-Germany (Micro-Bio Fluidics)
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-Ira Miller-Motorola (Verilog-A)
-Microsystem Simulation Tools (ANSYS, MEMSCAP),

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* HOUSING RESERVATION
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with the conference housing bureau also found at: http://ww.cr.org.

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Sponsored or Endorsed by: NSF, DARPA, APS, SIAM, Sloan Foundation,
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 08:39:29 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:29:52 -0800
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If there is some residual H2O-H2  in the fluorescent tubes, the
transmutation of the Hg and W (filaments and phosphor) into 
lighter elements in the Hg-Argon discharge should be possible.

The ~ 100 volts (rms) at ~ 0.40 amps in a 40 watt bulb over a
reasonable time might deposit the "new" isotopes on the
bulb walls.

Lots of "old" fluorescent tubes around and plenty of new ones to
use as a comparison.

Regards,    Frederick



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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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There was a research paper by GE on this at

www.neoware.com/docs/mgifl.html  but the web page is down

for overhaul.

 http://www.korry.com/lamp.html

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 10:13:53 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:03:38 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?
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The blackening of the phosphor in the dark zone may be the deposit of 
carbon (not previously in the environment) and the demise of the cathode 
filaments is usually due to calcium deposits (also previously not present)

The transmutation is apparent and likely provable but the trick is how do 
you use it?

At 09:29 AM 1/29/01 -0800, you wrote:
>If there is some residual H2O-H2  in the fluorescent tubes, the
>transmutation of the Hg and W (filaments and phosphor) into
>lighter elements in the Hg-Argon discharge should be possible.
>
>The ~ 100 volts (rms) at ~ 0.40 amps in a 40 watt bulb over a
>reasonable time might deposit the "new" isotopes on the
>bulb walls.
>
>Lots of "old" fluorescent tubes around and plenty of new ones to
>use as a comparison.
>
>Regards,    Frederick

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 10:27:52 2001
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Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Charles Ford 
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?

Charles Ford wrote:


> The blackening of the phosphor in the dark zone may be the deposit of 
> carbon (not previously in the environment) and the demise of the cathode 
> filaments is usually due to calcium deposits (also previously not present)
> 
> The transmutation is apparent and likely provable but the trick is how do 
> you use it?

Use it as a data point to prove an argument.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> At 09:29 AM 1/29/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >If there is some residual H2O-H2  in the fluorescent tubes, the
> >transmutation of the Hg and W (filaments and phosphor) into
> >lighter elements in the Hg-Argon discharge should be possible.
> >
> >The ~ 100 volts (rms) at ~ 0.40 amps in a 40 watt bulb over a
> >reasonable time might deposit the "new" isotopes on the
> >bulb walls.
> >
> >Lots of "old" fluorescent tubes around and plenty of new ones to
> >use as a comparison.
> >
> >Regards,    Frederick
> 
> Charlie Ford
> 
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 10:39:19 2001
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From: Scott Little 
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At 12:03 PM 1/29/01 -0600, Charles Ford wrote:

>The blackening of the phosphor in the dark zone may be the deposit of 
>carbon (not previously in the environment)....

Surely that black stuff is Pt black, transmuted from the Hg that's always 
in there...:)


Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 13:53:41 2001
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Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Scott Little 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:28 AM
Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?

Scott wrote:


> At 12:03 PM 1/29/01 -0600, Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >The blackening of the phosphor in the dark zone may be the deposit of 
> >carbon (not previously in the environment)....
> 
> Surely that black stuff is Pt black, transmuted from the Hg that's always 
> in there...:)

Most likely; 80Hg200 + P* ---> 81Tl201---> 79Au197 + 2He4 + LL- + 7.0 Mev

Regards,   Frederick
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 14:33:19 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:25:37 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: RE: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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	GM counters:

	Here are some addendum to the nature of GM counters.  Many
counters have a specialized "gas" mixture which may contain more than one
gas and a vapor such as ethyl formate, or other less exotic vapors to
combat unrestrained avalanche effects. 
	The initial avalanche of gas breakdown does not generally recruit
the WHOLE tube.  There are,further, several methods, some quite simple,
and some not, that allow the function of the tube to be controlled, to a
degree, by the potential applied to the tube.

	The BEST answer is to contact the manufacturer of the tube in the
instrument you use.  They are usually quite forthcoming about how their
tubes work.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 15:49:56 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:44:18 -0800
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They finally got their web page finished.

 http://www.espi-metals.com/metal.htm

FJS

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 15:51:56 2001
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References: 
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:42:18 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: RE: ? Testing Isotope Shift
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>	GM counters:
>
>	Here are some addendum to the nature of GM counters.  Many
>counters have a specialized "gas" mixture which may contain more than one
>gas and a vapor such as ethyl formate, or other less exotic vapors to
>combat unrestrained avalanche effects.
>	The initial avalanche of gas breakdown does not generally recruit
>the WHOLE tube.

***{Hi John. While your statement, above, may be correct, it conflicts with
the impression that I had, based on reading, and so I flipped through
several books to see if I could figure out where I got the impression that,
via x-rays, the entire tube did, in fact, become involved. Here is what I
found:

"A Geiger counter utilizes the same geometry as a proportional counter, but
by increasing the applied voltage the electric field is made so high near
the wire that even inner electrons of gas atoms are excited in collisions.
As electrons drop back into these vacated orbits, the radiation emitted
(ultraviolet light) is sufficiently energetic to produce ionization in
other gas atoms, including those far from the original site: the discharge
therefore spreads over the entire volume of the chamber." [*Concepts of
Nuclear Physics*, by Bernard Cohen, McGraw-Hill, 1971, pg. 217.]

>From the above, I note two points: (1) Cohen claims that the avalanche
*does* generally recruit the whole tube, and (2) Cohen claims that the
spread of the avalanche effect is due to the production of UV, not x-rays,
within the chamber.

Thus my impression that x-rays are involved appears to be wrong. However,
Cohen also seems to clearly disagree with your statement, above.

--Mitchell Jones}***

There are,further, several methods, some quite simple,
>and some not, that allow the function of the tube to be controlled, to a
>degree, by the potential applied to the tube.
>
>	The BEST answer is to contact the manufacturer of the tube in the
>instrument you use.  They are usually quite forthcoming about how their
>tubes work.

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 16:46:15 2001
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Subject: ufo


> http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=155883
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> UPI News Article: UFO closes Russian airport
>
>
>
>
>       International | US National | Entertainment | Sports | Markets | Science & Technology
>       Washington | Horoscopes | Weather | US Presidential Inauguration
>
>       Search News:
>
>
>       UFO closes Russian airport
>       Monday, 29 January 2001 16:57 (ET)
>
>
> UFO closes Russian airport
>
>
>  MOSCOW, Jan. 29 (UPI) -- An unidentified flying object hovering above the
> runway of an airport in Barnaul, in eastern Siberia, forced the airport's
> closure for almost two hours, Russian news agencies reported Monday.
>
>  During the incident, which occurred on Friday night, the crew of an
> Ilyushin 76 cargo jet refused to take off after spotting the glowing object
> hovering above the end of the runway.
>
>  Another freighter preparing to land at Barnaul airport also spotted the
> object and the pilot diverted his jet to an alternative airfield.
>
>  The object flew off and vanished some 90 minutes after it was first
> spotted, the reports say.
>
> --
> Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
> All rights reserved.
> --
>
>
>
>
>       Interested in world music? The romantic sounds of classic Cuba fuse with modern Spanish
guitar in this unusual CD. Click here to listen to some sample tracks.
>
>
> Return to headlines.
>
>
>

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UPI News Article: UFO closes Russian airport












  

    3D"Virtual
    







                       =20























    

        
UFO =
closes Russian airport

			
    

    

		Monday, 29 January =
2001 16:57 (ET)



UFO closes Russian airport


 MOSCOW, Jan. 29 (UPI) -- An unidentified flying object hovering above =
the
runway of an airport in Barnaul, in eastern Siberia, forced the =
airport's
closure for almost two hours, Russian news agencies reported Monday.

 During the incident, which occurred on Friday night, the crew of an
Ilyushin 76 cargo jet refused to take off after spotting the glowing =
object
hovering above the end of the runway.

 Another freighter preparing to land at Barnaul airport also spotted the
object and the pilot diverted his jet to an alternative airfield.

 The object flew off and vanished some 90 minutes after it was first
spotted, the reports say.

--
Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.
--





     

	 

	 Interested in world music?  The romantic sounds of =
classic Cuba fuse with modern Spanish guitar in this unusual CD.   
Click here to listen to some sample tracks.






	 













Return to =
headlines.












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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 17:01:44 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:35:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Goldes 
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Our firm had one of the Takahashi scooters.  I'm sorry to say we found it
did not demonstrate the claimed performance.  The President of his company
in London concluded that Takahashi was a fraud.  His so-called battery
doubler magnets, which Takahashi claimed to have made, were later discovered
to have been manufactured by Sumitomo Special Metals.

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temperature Superconductors Inc.



------Original Message------
From: thomas malloy 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Sent: January 29, 2001 8:11:41 AM GMT
Subject: Alexander Frolov


I met the Russian physicist Alexander Frolov through our mutual
interest in FE machines. His website at http://alexfrolov.narod.ru ,
contains some very interesting articles by Russian academics.
Alexander has several research projects that he would like to get
funded. The amounts he is asking for are so low by American standards
they make me laugh. He is an expert on data transmission systems, and
is open to job offers. He wants to know what happened to Takashai's
electrical moped, I told him that I got quite excited about the moped
when I first heard the story, however the effect that produced the
surplus energy was at best temporary. The last I heard about it, the
moped no longer ran itself, and was for sale, His email address is
alex frolov.spb.ru, a2509@yahoo.com


______________________________________________
FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com
Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 17:24:32 2001
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:23:29 -0800 (PST)
From: hank scudder 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Transmutions in a Fluorescent Bulb?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.1.4.0.20010129122741.0390a0b0 earthtech.org>
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Scott,
	You need to change your smiley when your tongue is in your cheek.
..
>>     ?
-

Hank


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Scott Little wrote:

> At 12:03 PM 1/29/01 -0600, Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >The blackening of the phosphor in the dark zone may be the deposit of 
> >carbon (not previously in the environment)....
> 
> Surely that black stuff is Pt black, transmuted from the Hg that's always 
> in there...:)
> 
> 
> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
> Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
> 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 18:01:51 2001
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	Dear Mitchell and folks,

	a] there are MANY kinds of GM tubes.

	b] the only way to know, for certain of to consult your
manufacturer.

	c]	my background on GM tubes comes from several books, tubes
of dfferent designs.


	to rely on one single source and one description is not a clear
pic tur e,    r

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Mitchell Jones wrote:

> >	GM counters:
> >
> >	Here are some addendum to the nature of GM counters.  Many
> >counters have a specialized "gas" mixture which may contain more than one
> >gas and a vapor such as ethyl formate, or other less exotic vapors to
> >combat unrestrained avalanche effects.
> >	The initial avalanche of gas breakdown does not generally recruit
> >the WHOLE tube.
> 
> ***{Hi John. While your statement, above, may be correct, it conflicts with
> the impression that I had, based on reading, and so I flipped through
> several books to see if I could figure out where I got the impression that,
> via x-rays, the entire tube did, in fact, become involved. Here is what I
> found:
> 
> "A Geiger counter utilizes the same geometry as a proportional counter, but
> by increasing the applied voltage the electric field is made so high near
> the wire that even inner electrons of gas atoms are excited in collisions.
> As electrons drop back into these vacated orbits, the radiation emitted
> (ultraviolet light) is sufficiently energetic to produce ionization in
> other gas atoms, including those far from the original site: the discharge
> therefore spreads over the entire volume of the chamber." [*Concepts of
> Nuclear Physics*, by Bernard Cohen, McGraw-Hill, 1971, pg. 217.]
> 
> >From the above, I note two points: (1) Cohen claims that the avalanche
> *does* generally recruit the whole tube, and (2) Cohen claims that the
> spread of the avalanche effect is due to the production of UV, not x-rays,
> within the chamber.
> 
> Thus my impression that x-rays are involved appears to be wrong. However,
> Cohen also seems to clearly disagree with your statement, above.
> 
> --Mitchell Jones}***
> 
> There are,further, several methods, some quite simple,
> >and some not, that allow the function of the tube to be controlled, to a
> >degree, by the potential applied to the tube.
> >
> >	The BEST answer is to contact the manufacturer of the tube in the
> >instrument you use.  They are usually quite forthcoming about how their
> >tubes work.
> 
> ________________
> Quote of the month:
> 
> "Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
> --Vaclav Havel
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 20:09:07 2001
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From: "Frederick Sparber" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Transmutations in a Fluorescent Bulb?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 21:01:43 -0800
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Some of the 105, 185, and 254  (11.8, 6.7, and 4.88 ev) uv from the 
Mercury-Argon discharge in a fluorescent bulb (at ~ 10 millitorr pressure) 
can reach the outer surface of the bulb and dissociate the H2O adsorbed on 
the bulb and allow the H atoms to diffuse into the bulb over time.

Whether the H atoms are catalyzed into Hydrinos by the Argon,
or capture a Light Lepton (LL-) and form the P* they should
cause transmutation of the Hg and W into lighter elements plus He4,
concurrently releasing energy.

Research on the disappearance of the Hg assumes that "the Hg is
diffusing into the glass".

Maybe not all of it.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 29 21:53:40 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 00:54:29 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer 
To: Frederick Sparber 
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Subject: Re: Transmutations in a Fluorescent Bulb?
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	You can easily determine transmutation by means of spectroscopy. 
	In general Hg lost in Hg vapor tubes is amalgamated.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Some of the 105, 185, and 254  (11.8, 6.7, and 4.88 ev) uv from the 
> Mercury-Argon discharge in a fluorescent bulb (at ~ 10 millitorr pressure) 
> can reach the outer surface of the bulb and dissociate the H2O adsorbed on 
> the bulb and allow the H atoms to diffuse into the bulb over time.
> 
> Whether the H atoms are catalyzed into Hydrinos by the Argon,
> or capture a Light Lepton (LL-) and form the P* they should
> cause transmutation of the Hg and W into lighter elements plus He4,
> concurrently releasing energy.
> 
> Research on the disappearance of the Hg assumes that "the Hg is
> diffusing into the glass".
> 
> Maybe not all of it.  :-)
> 
> Regards,    Frederick
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 09:30:50 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" 
Subject: FW: No Betas... ...interesting glow
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:25:11 +0700
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-----Original Message-----
From: xplorer [mailto:xplorer indo.net.id]
Sent: 2001 January 31, Wednesday 00:24
To: John Schnurer
Subject: No Betas... ...interesting glow



I tried getting the silver sample
 up against the geiger tube,
 but only got background noise.
I think this particular tube
 is too thick for soft betas,
 and the documents for it seem to
 to indicate this as well.

Fried the detection circuitry,
 but the results prior to that
 moment were null.

After the depression of sorting out
 that I needed to rebuild the
 circuitry, I mustered the wherewithal
 to try the phospor detection method.

I scraped the posphor from half the
 inside circumference of a flourescent tube,
 and smeared the residue across the sample.
I inserted this into the tube and
 when dark, I saw no scintillations.

End of testing this way until I get a new
 ev punching arrangement, higher voltage,
 and my geiger circuit rebuilt...........
.........................................
.........................................

Just for fun:
 I fired up the transformer
 and punched arcs through the tube
 impinging the sample.
No scintillations after shutdown,
 but I noticed a 5-second glow coming
 from the phosphor near the sample
 after the voltage was off.
Testing with a pocket lighter,
 I found the glow arises due to heat.
The phosphor material, when heated, glows
 rather faintly.
I had always thought that glows of this nature
 were decadent - that you needed to give a
 higher energy to get a specific radiation.
That flourescence depended on some freq/energy
 level 'X' and that the best re-radiation
 you could get would always be at some level
 less than 'X'.

So what I was seeing was heat (from the glass tube)
 being transformed into visible light.
I can guess at several mechanisms for this,
 now that I've seen it, but perhaps someone
 out there can enlighten me as to the
 classical theory on this ?

cheers from the rubble.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
> Sent: 2001 January 29, Monday 14:02
> To: xplorer
> Subject: RE: ? Testing Isotope Shift
>
>
> n
>
>
> 	You can detect energetic betas by using the phosphor from an
> electroluminescent lAMP.  THESE ARE THIN.
>
> 	They are often sold as a night light that pugs in the wall, is
> flat and uses little current and glows...
>
> 	Buy one, open the casing... and CAREFULLY expose some of the
> phosphor ... this material will luminesce when exposed to beta ... betas
> are
> VERY fast electrons ... you could just as easily use the phosphor from
> nearly any o-scope  or B and W TV tube.... the EL lamps are easier because
> you don't have to break and glass.... cheaper too.
>
> 	In the "olden days" such a phosphor was palced on a screen and a
> small magnifying glass was set up to magnify the phosphor... the
> investigator used the device in a COMPLETELY BLACK ROOM ... after the eyes
> had been dark adapted for 10 minutes....
> 	AND:	....you too will have to dark adapt the eyes.
>
> On Sun, 28 Jan 2001, xplorer wrote:
>
> >
> > Given the difficulty of detecting Betas,
> >  do you think I could detect them by
> >  putting a probe on the material in question
> >  (chunk of silver) and looking for positive
> >  spikes as they are emitted ?
> >
> > It doesn't seem like this would work
> >  as the spike would be capacitively quenched
> >  by the bulk of material,
> >  but I have to ask as I don't believe I have
> >  any method for seeing Betas.
> >
> > Another idea I will attempt is
> >  to wrap the sample in a thin film of plastic
> >  with aluminium foil shroud, looking for
> >  negative spikes on the relatively small foil.
> >
> > My geiger tube seems to be rather inappropriately
> >  shaped for detecting Betas...
> >
> >
> > > From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
> > > Sent: 2001 January 28, Sunday 08:37
> > > Subject: Re: ? Testing Isotope Shift
> > >
> > > In reply to  xplorer's message of Sun, 28 Jan 2001 08:03:01 +0700:
> > >
> > >x<
> >
> > > >How do I check for the difference between
> > > > Ag107 and Pd107 ?
> > > [snip]
> > > You need at least 33000 volt electrons to convert Ag107 into
> > > Pd107, which is
> > > then slightly radioactive, spitting the electrons back out at
> you, as it
> > > converts slowly back to Ag107.
> > >
> > > IOW if you don't detect any betas, you don't have any Pd107.
> >
> >
> > curious
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 09:31:00 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" 
Subject: thermal ejecta
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 00:25:10 +0700
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On to a sideline experiment:

If water pressurized and heated
 to 400 K permeates a porous wall,
 (assuming the wall is 'thick'
 and remains heated to the
 same temp) it will radiate
 at what velocity as it leaves the
 wall ?

I filled a narrow-mouth jar
 with concrete. When it's fairly
 dry, I'll slip it into the microwave
 and set it for 'stun'.

I hope to see a flume of steam
 coming out the unsealed end,
 and maybe I'll find some way
 to see what kind of velocity
 the steam departs with...

you're all invited,
 come on over and watch the fun.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 10:57:09 2001
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Message-ID: <001901c08aef$11462380$79dcc2cf louie>
From: "Louie Pelletier" 
To: 
References: 
Subject: Re: thermal ejecta
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:59:29 -0800
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i hope you use an expendable microwave. 
you should have at least 2 inches of bullet proof
glass between you and the microwave. when 
you have trapped moisture in a solid, you have a bomb,
when you apply heat. like using river rock to 
crib your camp fire, is a mega no-no. 
louis
  
-
.Subject: thermal ejecta


> 
> On to a sideline experiment:
> 
> If water pressurized and heated
>  to 400 K permeates a porous wall,
>  (assuming the wall is 'thick'
>  and remains heated to the
>  same temp) it will radiate
>  at what velocity as it leaves the
>  wall ?
> 
> I filled a narrow-mouth jar
>  with concrete. When it's fairly
>  dry, I'll slip it into the microwave
>  and set it for 'stun'.
> 
> I hope to see a flume of steam
>  coming out the unsealed end,
>  and maybe I'll find some way
>  to see what kind of velocity
>  the steam departs with...
> 
> you're all invited,
>  come on over and watch the fun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 12:34:34 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:27:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Charles Ford 
Subject: Re: thermal ejecta
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Oh no we have ben attacked by the microwave bomber  :-)


At 12:25 AM 1/31/01 +0700, you wrote:

>On to a sideline experiment:
>
>If water pressurized and heated
>  to 400 K permeates a porous wall,
>  (assuming the wall is 'thick'
>  and remains heated to the
>  same temp) it will radiate
>  at what velocity as it leaves the
>  wall ?
>
>I filled a narrow-mouth jar
>  with concrete. When it's fairly
>  dry, I'll slip it into the microwave
>  and set it for 'stun'.
>
>I hope to see a flume of steam
>  coming out the unsealed end,
>  and maybe I'll find some way
>  to see what kind of velocity
>  the steam departs with...
>
>you're all invited,
>  come on over and watch the fun.
>
>
>

Charlie Ford

KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 13:20:56 2001
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References: 
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:30:34 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: thermal ejecta
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>i hope you use an expendable microwave.
>you should have at least 2 inches of bullet proof
>glass between you and the microwave. when
>you have trapped moisture in a solid, you have a bomb,
>when you apply heat. like using river rock to
>crib your camp fire, is a mega no-no.
>louis

***{To Explorer: I second the above motion, in spades! Abort your plan, or
else observe from a distance, through binoculars! --MJ}***

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 13:22:12 2001
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Subject: Re: Fw: ufo
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>Subject: ufo
>
>
>> http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=155883
>>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>
>
>> UPI News Article: UFO closes Russian airport
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       International | US National | Entertainment | Sports | Markets |
>>Science & Technology
>>       Washington | Horoscopes | Weather | US Presidential Inauguration
>>
>>       Search News:
>>
>>
>>       UFO closes Russian airport
>>       Monday, 29 January 2001 16:57 (ET)
>>
>>
>> UFO closes Russian airport
>>
>>
>>  MOSCOW, Jan. 29 (UPI) -- An unidentified flying object hovering above the
>> runway of an airport in Barnaul, in eastern Siberia, forced the airport's
>> closure for almost two hours, Russian news agencies reported Monday.
>>
>>  During the incident, which occurred on Friday night, the crew of an
>> Ilyushin 76 cargo jet refused to take off after spotting the glowing object
>> hovering above the end of the runway.
>>
>>  Another freighter preparing to land at Barnaul airport also spotted the
>> object and the pilot diverted his jet to an alternative airfield.
>>
>>  The object flew off and vanished some 90 minutes after it was first
>> spotted, the reports say.

***{Not to worry, Fred: it just another one of those pesky "collective
hallucinations," that's all! :-) --MJ}***

>>
>> --
>> Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
>> All rights reserved.
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       Interested in world music? The romantic sounds of classic Cuba
>>fuse with modern Spanish
>guitar in this unusual CD. Click here to listen to some sample tracks.
>>
>>
>> Return to headlines.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
>	name="upidetail.cfm"
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>	filename="upidetail.cfm"
>
>Attachment converted: HD4000:upidetail.cfm (????/----) (0007E812)

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Critical Questions/Issues in Nuclear Dynamics
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:56:20 -0600
From: sjy 
To:
"""a.insolia""","""andrea.vitturi""","""Angelo.Pagano@CT.INFN.IT""","""G.Westfall""","""Giancarlo.Bonsignori@bo.infn.it""","
""rene.Roy""",00FENG@cuc.edu,201228@umdd.umd.edu,74641.2403@compuserve.com,a.gobbi@gsi.de,a.wagner@fz-rossendorf.de,a_chiavassa@to.infn.it,a16064@email.sps.mot.com,aaaghaleb@hotmail.com,abballe@lnf.infn.it,abbiendi@padova.infn.it,a
bbondanno ts.infn.it,abbrescia@ba.infn.it,abey@yukawa.kyoto-u.ac.jp,abizzeti@fi.infn.it,abolins@pa.msu.edu,ac16@andrew.cmu.edu,acacciani@solar.stanford.edu,acal@lnf.infn.it,accolla@lns.infn.it,acquarone@fisica.unipr.it,ADAM@TRIUMF.CA,adamantonio.clemente@
ba.infn.it,ademollo fi.infn.it,adriano.filipponi@aquila.infn.it,AdrianoGobbi,AEmran@IntIso.com,aesposito@lnf.infn.it,afontana@science.unitn.it,agargfcy@rurkiu.ernet.in,agata.pennisi@ct.infn.it,agjones@hms.harva!
rd.edu,agnello to.infn.it,agodi@lns.infn.it,agostino.pennisi@ct.infn.it,agran-request@cc.monash.edu.au,agroudin@u.arizona.edu,ahmad@anlphy.phy.anl.gov,aichelin@nanvs2.in2p3.fr,aidavis@3-cities.com,ajchmura@ucdavis.edu,akhasawn@kent.edu,aki@ix.netcom.com,a
kwplw goldrudh.com,alabiso@fisica.unipr.it,aladin@gsi.de,alaimo@perugia.infn.it,alba.perrotta@roma1.infn.it,albanese@fisica.unipr.it,alberico@torino.infn.it,alberto.bigazzi@aquila.infn.it,alberto.fontana@aquila.infn.it,alexei.larionov@theo.physik.uni-gies
sen.de,algurabi emirates.net.ae,aljammaz@kfshrc.edu.sa,alshammari@kfshrc.edu.sa,altzitzoglou@irmm.jrc.be,amcchemist@aol.com,amcnichol@whol.edu,AMPoskanzer@LBL.gov,amreynolds@tva.gov,amv@IBA.BE,amwensm@smumn.edu,andersoncj@mirlink.wustl.edu,andreas.tuerler
 psi.ch,andyboswell@hotmail.com,angiac@cs.com,angusandrew@yahoo.com,ann@mrlimpit.ch.ua.edu,annie@mindspring.com,anthony@nscl.msu.edu,aorzech@isotopeproducts.com,apaulen@clemson.edu,ar.felmy@pnl.gov,ards@fatihun.edu.tr,arsene@s!
ympatico.ca,as2 prism.gatech.edu,aslani@egeuniv.ege.edu.tr,atkins@pilot.msu.edu,aygarnov@lbl.gov,bachey@psghs.edu,bakerja3@pilot.msu.edu,baktashc@ornl.gov,bandmwalsh@aol.com,batygin@rikvax.riken.go.jp,bbuchholz@llnl.gov,beene@uclink4.berkeley.edu,beers@pa
.msu.edu,beitz anl.gov,bert.coursey@nist.gov,bertrand@orph01.phy.ornl.go,bertu@if.ufrj.br,besko@pilot.msu.edu,bez@nist.gov,bickley@dartmouth.edu,Bill_Crooks@yahoo.com,bingbingham@msn.com,birgitw@iri.tudelft.nl,blau1@llnl.gov,bob.wilson@cplc.com,bodo.berkn
er dmc-2.de,boger@bnl.gov,BoJakobsson,BOLLARA@ORNL.GOV,bonnett@ucsu.colorado.edu,boyd@mps.ohio-state.edu,brandt@mailer.uni-marburg.de,briancampbell@hotmail.com,brindza@cebaf.gov,brock@pa.msu.edu,brown170@llnl.gov,btl9572@bingham
ton.edu,buchmann dow.com,buzz.vickery@gte.net,C701392@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU,cable@xenogen.com,calaue@lbl.gov,carlin@uspif1.if.usp.br,cbemis@cisco.com,CBWNG@VAXZ.WINONA.MSUS.EDU,ccarney1@aol.com,cdspin2@tcnj.edu,chill@sinclair.ne!
t,choag acceleration.net,choppin@chem.fsu.edu,choudhry@orbix.gq.nu,CHU@HI2.HIRG.BNL.GOV,cizewski@ohysics.rutgers.edu,cjb@lanl.gov,clarkh@rpi.edu,CMagee@usd.edu,cmfolden@lbl.gov,Cohran@wuchem.wustl.edu,collins@iucf.indiana.edu,collinslljr@ornl.gov,coxthe1@
carthage.edu,cperez gw.total-web.net,cphelps@csuchico.edu,CPIETRI@AOL.COM,crudy@lanl.gov,cseidel@intiso.com,cthan@lbl.gov,cutlerc@missouri.edu,cwalker@tunl.duke.edu,cynthia.zeissler@nist.gov,cynthia@ocf.berkeley.edu,d.krofcheck@auckland.ac.nz,DAHL18@aol.c
om,dakeeney lbl.gov,dale.visser@yale.edu,daniela_wutte@LBL.GOV,DarioVretenar,darrel.walker@srs.gov,darty@attglobal.net,Darvuku@aol.com,dashow@UCollege.edu,daulaber@erols.com,dauria@sfu.ca,DAVEPRUETT@Compuserve.com,dav
id.anderson nist.gov,david.hobbs@srs.gov,davids@ac.cc.md.us,davids@anl.gov,dbmann@lanl.gov,DBRENNER@CLARKU.EDU,dcoles6781@aol.com,dcosta@lanl.gov,ddrummond@alum.mit.edu,debbie@aps.org,demorris@lanl.gov,densor@tntech.edu,DGColl!
ins LBL.GOV,dhandzy@iallc.com,dhobart@lanl.gov,dieter.jost@psi.ch,DJCLARK@LBL.GOV,dkagni@yahoo.com,DKarr28187@aol.com,DKSHUH@LBL.GOV,dlarkin@cfox.bchs.uh.edu,dlcaulder@lbl.gov,dmarsh@canberra.com,dmclean75@aol.com,dneu@stcloudstate.edu,dnkurk@chem.fsu.edu
,docamy webtv.net,donald_burns@merck.com,dorisq@lanl.gov,douglas.cole@slchicago.infonet.com,downs@pilot.msu.edu,dporterfield@lanl.gov,dr.bogus@ncoif.com,drmitchell@m7.sprynet.com,dvera@ucsd.edu,dx4@ornl.gov,dxie@bieinc.com,dyall@pegasus.arc.nasa.gov,dykma
n pa.msu.edu,ebluhm@lanl.gov,EBNorman@lbl.gov,echulick@3-cities.com,eempey@mit.edu,ehmann@pop.uky.edu,EHRHARDTG@MISSOURI.EDU,ekinderman@aol.com,elizabeth.malone@ccmail.bms.com,emarler@arqule.com,ERIC_W._SCHNEIDER@NOTES.GMR.COM,ericks30@pilot.msu.edu,eshep
ler worldnet.att.net,ess@weberair.com,esterlj@ao.dtra.mil,esterlun@mailer.uni-marburg.de,ESYLWETER@NETZERO.NET,etan@wm.com,eugene.zabrodin@uni-tuebingen.de,ewfrick@hotmail.com,FabianaGramegna,fahe!
ychem aol.com,FinocchiaroPaolo,fords1675@aol.com,fouad.rami@ires.in2p3.fr,fox@nscl.msu.edu,fpnagg@home.com,FrancescoPorto,franklink@intranet.ca,franz.oberdorfer@t-online.de,friesel@iucf.indiana.edu,FSStephens@LB
L.GOV,g.j.kunde yale.edu,GAF9487@GARNET.ACNS.FSU.EDU,gammaplus@bigplanet.com,garman@bnl.gov,gary.sayed@mail.tju.edu,gatrousis1@llnl.gov,gavalya@cebaf.gov,gbutler@lanl.gov,gdokelley@worldnet.att.net,GE_FRYXELL@PNL.GOV,gehrke@srv.net,geleroi@msu.edu,gene@ge
nehall.com,gene infinite-energy.com,gerd.meyer@uni-koeln.de,ggowdy@scana.com,ghalada@ms.cc.sunysb.edu,GHAMAM2L@mail.aramco.com.sa,giesler@lanl.gov,gillow@bnl.gov,gjarvinen@lanl.gov,gjwozniak@lbl.gov,glascock@missouri.edu,glasmacher@nscl.msu.edu,goconnor@p
ilot.msu.edu,goeders earthlink.net,goto@postman.riken.go.jp,gpberg@rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp,graboske1@llnl.gov,greatsatchmo@mindspring.com,grevy@caelav.in2p3.fr,groh@nscl.msu.edu,grover@aether.chm.bnl.gov,gstrath@aol.com,gting@iner.!
aec.gov.tw,guelis anchim.chm.anl.gov,gulminelli@caelav.in2p3.fr,gunnar@nc.chalmers.se,gur@psu.edu,gutowski@udel.edu,hannu.koivisto@phys.jyu.fi,harreis@uni-duesseldorf.de,harry.miley@pnl.gov,harwood@cebaf.gov,hatanaka@rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp,hatsu@popsvr.tokai.
jaeri.go.jp,haustein bnldag.ags.bnl.gov,hcg@umich.edu,henslin@liza.st-elizabeth.edu,hermann.wolter@physik.uni-muenchen.de,hickson@cebaf.gov,hihochi@cas.org,hirsch,hkudo@sc.niigata-u.ac.jp,hkulube@esanet.zw,hlhall@LLNL.GOV,hoffma
n lbl.gov,holden@bnl.gov,hopkepk@clarkson.edu,HQP01574@nifty.ne.jp,hrheydeg@nwi.calumet.purdue.edu,hubel@iskp.uni-bonn.de,hudan@ganil.fr,hyder@groupz.net,icenhouras@ornl.gov,ieki@rikkyo.ac.jp,iiigrace@cs.com,imanishi@nucleng.kyoto-u.ac.jp,isingleton@isoto
peproducts.com,izawa bunsei.ac.jp,j.vandoornmalen@iri.tudelft.nl,j_wilhelmy@lanl.gov,jabkat@aol.com,jacob.doushy@intel.com,jacqueline.l.hayman@usa.dupont.com,jaimecorpuz@hotmail.com,JanToke,jazandlu@be!
llatlantic.net,jbigeleisen notes.cc.sunysb.edu,jbpatin@lbl.gov,jbs40101@glaxowellcome.com,jcgallag@nh.ultranet.com,jdrobson@pop.uky.edu,jean.caragnand@yale.edu,jean.cavallo@hmrag.com,jehanne.simon-gillo@science.doe.gov,jengizu@aol.com,jf.desreux@ulg.ac.be
,jfasching chm.uri.edu,jfc@epm-inc.com,jfk907@aol.com,jfuger@ulg.ac.be,jgkay@drexel.edu,jhill@iastate.edu,jialan_shi@hms.harvard.edu,jim.brodack@mkg.com,jjlabrec@ivic.ivic.ve,jkenders@aol.com,JKG@ORNL.GOV,jkp135@att.net,jkrycka@net1plus.com,jlmusachio@pet
scan.nm.jhu.edu,jlwu aol.com,jmckinney@orbispherelabs.com,jmusgrave@lanl.gov,JN@LANL.GOV,jndyal@aol.com,joemaurine@aol.com,joemt@ucla.edu,john_danek@gillette.com,john_krause@cameco.com,John_Wilson@illinova.com,jonsons@mirlink.wustl.edu,jread@cpcug.org,jsa
leem csu.org,jshergur@excite.com,jspfohl@sandia.gov,jterry@lanl.gov,jtharvey@eichrom.com,Jull@u.arizona.edu,jurissons@missouri.edu,jvillalobos@dcf.pmx.com.mx,jvkratz@VKCMZD.chemie.uni-mainz.de,jw20@prism.gatech.edu,jwkim@rikva!
x.riken.go.jp,kabalka UTK.edu,kaplan@cmchem.chem.cmu.edu,karavin45@hotmail.com,karl@norvol.hi.is,karna,katsu@q.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp,kawabata@slac.stanford.edu,kazuyoshi.masumoto@kek.jp,kbhelean@ucdavis.edu,kczer@mit.edu,kec@iqm.unica
mp.br,KEGREGORICH LBL.GOV,keithfrank@dow.com,kenneth.hofstetter@srs.gov,ketringa@missouri.edu,k-francis@nwu.edu,khanold@syagen.com,kiderlen@physik.tu-muenchen.de,kim@ine.fzk.de,kimika@aol.com,kinardf@cofc.edu,kkrohn@u.washington.edu,klhull@jetlink.net,kol
man lanl.gov,kopfj@worldnet.att.net,kortelin@sfu.ca,kronenberg@mail.uni-mainz.de,Kruse.Jon@mayo.edu,krw@chem.ufl.edu,kschmied@utk.edu,kThomas@lanl.gov,kubo@rikvax.riken.go.jp,kurosaki@mail.wsu.edu,kurt@lanl.gov,kwiat@iucf.indiana.edu,kwthomas@lanl.gov,L.L
indner.Naarden inter.NL.net,labalme@subatech.in2p3.fr,laetitia@csg.chem.ornl.gov,laksimon@msu.edu,larryatharp@msn.com,lefort@iucf.indiana.edu,lemirer@aecl.ca,len-watkins@uiowa.edu,letourneau@ganil.fr,levitz@juno.com,lewbattist!
 aol.com,lewis_ca@mindspring.com,lewisjas@mir.wustl.edu,lewismic@missouri.edu,lhenifin@aol.com,LHHeilbronn@LBL.GOV,lie@nri.cz,lieven@snow.stanford.edu,linda.davis@pnl.gov,lindquist2456@hotmail.com,lippisl@llnl.gov,lisa@mps.ohio-state.edu,litmar@naesco.com
,liumeadows juno.com,liu-yz@gcl.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp,lkay@bcp.gtsduratech.com,lkhawli@hsc.usc.edu,llburger@3-cities.com,lma2870@labs.tamu.edu,lougheed1@llnl.gov,lovelock@wic.net,lra@lanl.gov,LRao@lbl.gov,lrieding@utk.edu,LSSchroeder@LBL.GOV,luke_chen@alumni
.hmc.edu,lus srv.net,Luxen@pet.crc.ulg.ac.be,lynch@nscl.msu.edu,lynne.d.preston@gsbalum.uchicago.edu,m.schaedel@gsi.de,m_azure@diatide.com,MADDIE@SRV.NET,maddison@mail.wsu.edu,madia@ordl.gov,makay@teleport.com,makide@chem.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp,mal.mckibben@srs.
gov,mamorales aol.com,manningr@drg.nih.gov,mannys@best-medical.com,mantica@nscl.msu.edu,marchetti1@llnl.gov,markowit@cchem.Berkeley.edu,martinwb@box-m.nih.gov,MASTOYER@LLNL.GOV,mathis@radserv.arad.upmc.edu,may@comp.tamu.edu,mb!
gillis southernco.com,mbhar@chemicalpartners.com,Mcaninch1@llnl.gov,mcbroom@gte.net,mccarthyt@mir.wustl.edu,mcdonald@phys.uconn.edu,MCFARLANEJ@AECL.CA,mcharris@cem.msu.edu,mcmart@scescape.net,mdsjk@aol.com,MEINKEN@BNL.GOV,melissa.baird@murraystate.edu,mew
eber colby.edu,michael.bronikowski@SRS.GOV,microtech@wave.net,mika.huhta@phys.jyu.fi,mike.brisson@srs.gov,Mike_Murchie@cameco.com,miller@LBL.GOV,minai@cc.musashi.ac.jp,mirko@pet.mni.mcgill.ca,mjdunn@mindspring.com,mkassiou@pet.nucmed.rpa.cs.nsw.gov.au,mko
taka nr.titech.ac.jp,mmahinay@cc1.msuiit.edu.ph,moretto@lbl.gov,morrissey@nscl.msu.edu,morss@cmt.anl.gov,mouze@unice.fr,mouze@unice.fr,moyerba@onl.gov,mpfabe@sophia.smith.edu,mscarolus@aol.com,msheadc@aol.com,MSTAYLOR@UFL.edu,msteinbe@bnl.gov,mthompson77@
hotmail.com,murray comp.tamu.edu,muscatel@ecentral.com,mwright@gardner-webb.edu,myeh@mail.wsu.edu,n_gray@acs.org,nakamura@yap.nucl.ap.titech.ac.jp,nathalie.kintz@ires.in2p3.fr,natowitz,nav@clemson.edu,n!
avin tifr.res.in,nayak@vecdec.veccal.ernet.in,nethaway@juno.com,NGOLCHERT@ANL.GOV,niemeyer@msm.msu.edu,nikolai.petrik@pnl.gov,nina.s.khashaba@monsanto.com,ninomiya@rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp,nkelvin@au1.ibm.com,nndctb@bnl.gov,nolen@anl.gov,nordstrb@pr.erau.edu,no
rman.edelstein science.doe.gov,noyce@idns.state.il.us,nucciotti@mi.infn.it,Nucleon@Angelfire.com,nwogman@3-cities.com,oconnor@nscl.msu.edu,OFELIA@NIST.GOV,ogilvie@mitlns.mit.edu,Oj@tsinet.ru,olmi,om@umr.edu,oninan@hotmail.com,orr@caelav.i
n2p3.fr,p.mignonsin ulg.ac.be,p_gary_eller@lanl.gov,palmer2@llnl.gov,parmerj@msu.edu,Parsons@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu,paul.croatto@ch.doe.gov,paul.kienle@physik.tu-muenchen.de,paul.reeder@pnl.gov,PAWILK@LBL.GOV,pconti@hsc.usc.edu,peaslee@hope.edu,Peter.Thi
rolf Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE,peteror@chem.fsu.edu,peterson@pa.msu.edu,pfaff@ppsa.com,philrcor@adelphia.net,phlashley@firstenergy.com,pinpin@leland.stanford.edu,pk03+@andrew.cmu.edu,pkuck@usgs.gov,pmzielinski@lbl.gov,poggi,pope@pa.msu.edu,ppaviet-hartmann@lanl.gov,prisc@nscl.msu.edu,PS7527@ACxRD.chem.tamu.edu,pwong@acvsd.edu,pzecher@iallc.com,quinnt@missouri.edu,r.hanson@nunet.neu.edu,randrup@nta0.lbl.gov,rarober@mkg.com,rasmusse@socrates.berkeley.edu,ratcher@l
anl.gov,rayres fred.net,rcmoore@sandia.gov,rdhoffman@llnl.gov,reich@esrf.fr,reichertd@mirlink.wustl.edu,remibougault,remsberg@bnl.gov,rewild@ibm.net,rezaazin@yahoo.com,RFERRIERI@BNL.GOV,rglomb@peco-energy.com,rhamm@linacs.com,ric
k.paul nist.gov,rick_strickert@radian.com,rico@ticon.net,rjacques@psrw.com,rjotto@lbl.gov,rkryger@gate.net,rmcan99@yahoo.com,robert.braga@chemistry.gatech.edu,robert.lange@yale.edu,rodpasq@mail.retina.ar,Roger.Henderson@FRETS.Gov,rogersb@uab.edu,RomualdoD
eSouza,ron.brodzinski@pnl.gov,rowland@cycomp.tamu.edu,rowland@uci.edu,rpy@mindspring.com,rreedy@lanl.gov,rsch@nda.vsnl.net.in,rsday@lanl.gov,RSudowe@lbl.gov,rsun@market-ware.com,ruangma@cycomp.tamu.edu,RUN!
DE LANL.GOV,russeho@quincy.edu,rutt@cebaf.gov,rwh@catgis.dep.nyc.ny.us,rwise@bc.cc.ca.us,s.landsberger@mail.utexas.edu,s.m.qaim@fz-juelich.de,s.vogt@iaea.org,s_clark@wsu.edu,saladin@vms.cis.pitt.edu,salvador@ifc.pi.cnr.it,sandoli,sapie
nza lns.infn.it,sarahcod@hotmail.com,sbowen@lanl.gov,schroeder@nsrl.rochester.edu,scolbern@ytca.com,sejakov@ford.com,SEMKOW@WADSWORTH.ORG,serge.hogege@amb-wash.fr,sfs@wam.umd.edu,Sharon.stone@bc1.neuro.ks.se,shima@rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp,sida@phnx7.saclay.cea.
fr,silveira ix.netcom.com,SJ9@ORNL.GOV,slack@itol.com,slater@pa.msu.edu,slever@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu,smuddu@biosyn.com,sonnguyen@hotmail.com,soulioti@comp.tamu.edu,speedd@wipp.carlsbad.nm.us,speila@srv.net,srivast@bnl.gov,stanley.w.stevens@cpmx.saic.com
,stevenk lanl.gov,stoecker@th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de,sujkowski@iriss.ipj.gov.pl,susie_troyer@yahoo.com,szilner@sbgsu1.in2p3.fr,szy@ornl.gov,t.hanusa@vanderbilt.edu,taieb@ipno.in2p3.fr,Tandmfelix@aol.com,Tandon@lanl.gov,tarene!
au amoco.com,tbecse@aol.com,tbracz1@bayou.com,terryjw@worldnet.att.net,thamilton@adrian.edu,THOR.ALASKA@juno.com,tianjun@public.lz.gs.cn,TJSymons@LBL.GOV,tk11@andrew.cmu.edu,todd5508@aol.com,tom.odonnell@umich.edu,tom@peptor.co.il,TORRES2@LLNL.GOV,tpassel
l epri.com,tprusnek@hotmail.com,TRUTH@TRIUMF.CA,TSANG@NSCL.MSU.EDU,twhite@capital.edu,TXM@NRC.GOV,tye@kungfu.cc,UliLynen,unygren@ume.foa.se,ursa@zeus.chapel1.com,UWKirbach@lbl.gov,va982200@hope.edu,valeria@lnf.infn.it,vanbrunt@engr.sc.edu,
vanderw3 pilot.msu.edu,vanhoy@nadn.navy.mil,velsko1@llnl.gov,vicv@iucf.indiana.edu,viesti,villatte@ipno.in2p3.fr,vninov@lbl.gov,volant@phnx7.saclay.cea.fr,w.trautmann@gsi.de,WACHEL@KAPL.GOV,wam@engr.uark.edu,wangjing@pilot.msu.edu,warn
er owt.com,washbulc@email.uc.edu,wchsi@iucf.indiana.edu,wcooper@bnis.net,weiwei.xu@bms.com,Whitter@Merck.com,wiescher.1@nd.edu,willem.dolieslager@chem.kuleuven.ac.be,WillibrordReisdorf,wilson.jc@mindspring.c!
om,winger ph.msstate.edu,wjcho1@hyowon.cc.pusan.ac.kr,wjohnson@ccmail.nevada.edu,wkwilson@rhic2.physics.wayne.edu,wof92@mindspring.com,wohn@iastate.edu,wolsey@macalester.edu,wolson@cmt.anl.gov,wong@lanl.gov,wuhland@aol.com,ww3@umail.umd.edu,xermint@aol.co
m,xuey wipp.carlsbad.nm.us,y.shin@gsi.de,Y_xia@ccmail.pnl.gov,yamasita@analchem.tokai.jaeri.go.jp,yano@rikvax.riken.go.jp,yates@pop.uky.edu,yctong@tpts4.seed.net.tw,yennello@comp.tamu.edu,yhchung@sun.hallym.ac.kr,yliu@pku.edu.cn,yorick@ipno.in2p3.fr,yuan@
pa.msu.edu,zaf ornl.gov,zcb63@mizzou.edu,zhao@nsrl.rochester.edu,zhao01@llnl.gov,zig,zttsai@iner.gov.tw,zyromskk@ucs.orst.edu

There will be a symposium "Critical Issues/Questions in Nuclear
Dynamics" 
at the 221st ACS National meeting in San Diego, CA on 1-5 April, 2001. 
We 
have enclosed a preliminary version of the program for the symposium,
which 
begins on Sunday, 1 April, 2001.  We would like to have lively
interactions 
during the panel discussions to frame the critical issues of our field. 
We 
invite you to participate in this discussion.  To increase the number of 
students that can participate we have obtained funds to provide partial 
travel support for a limited number of students.  Please let us know if
you 
would like to nominate a student for this support.  Have the student
send a 
short description of their research along with a statement of what they
can 
bring to the discussion and what they hope to get out of the 
discussion.  Applications received by 15 Feb will receive full
consideration.

There are a number of other interesting symposia in nuclear chemistry at 
this meeting including a five day symposium on nuclear structure
research, 
organized by D. Brenner and symposia with titles of "Radiation, Health
and 
Safety: Myth and Reality", "Nuclear Chemistry-The First Hundred 
Years-Science, People and Politics", "New Science and Technology for 
Nuclear Waste Disposal and Environmental Remediation", and "Recent
Advances 
in Radiopharmaceuticals".  Details of these symposia and the other 
technical programs at the meeting can be found at 
http://www.acs.org/meetings/sandiego2001

We hope you will join us in San Diego.  If you have any questions, etc., 
please contact us.

                                                 Walt Loveland
                                                 Sherry Yennello
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 13:37:21 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:27:00 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

Perhaps the temperature gradient in the Case cell is necessary to ensure
migration of deuterium through the catalyst, resulting in the necessary
collisions between deuterons that result in the formation of deuterinos.
Because the deuterinos themselves are much scarcer than D atoms, the primary
deuterino shrinkage mechanism will be

D + D + D[1/p] -> D[1/p+1] + D+ + D+

i.e. because D is much more prevalent than deuterinos, any deuterino present
is far more likely to come across a pair of D's than another deuterino.
When the deuterino gets small enough, it can fuse with one of the D's,
resulting in He4 (this is where I cleverly avoid mentioning the absence of
gamma rays etc. - Oops ;). 
This process primarily results in He4 when it takes place in an atomic gas
in a hollow in the material, yet frequently results in metal transmutation
when it occurs on the surface of the metal.
Because of the open structure of the carbon to which the Pd is bonded in the
Case cell, either the carbon itself, or the interface between the carbon and
the Pd, or perhaps both can provide the requisite open spaces wherein such
an atomic gas can accumulate. The role of the Pd is to split molecular D2
into 2 atoms of D.

Now about those missing gammas....Perhaps in a three particle collision
where two of the three fuse into one, the remaining particle can share the
momentum resulting from the energy release, allowing the formation of He4,
rather than He3 or T. As to how this occurs, when the nucleus of the third
atom is a full Å away...speculation is invited (light takes 3E-19 sec. to
travel that far) :).




Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 15:05:31 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:34:40 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> When the deuterino gets small enough, it can fuse with one of the D's,
> resulting in He4 (this is where I cleverly avoid mentioning the absence of
> gamma rays etc. - Oops ;).


Do you know if Case uses carbon with near zero boron content
(reactor grade)?

The reason I ask is that the reaction:

d + 10B= 4He + 8Be    >    8Be = 2 4He

is ostensibly gamma-less, although any so-called gamma-less
reaction that produces energetic alphas should produce
secondary gammas. If a deuterino were involved, instead of a
deuteron, perhaps the reaction would be somewhat less
energetic.

All organic sources of carbon would normally contain
substantial boron as an impurity - and it is rather
difficult to remove due to its similarity to C. That is why
reactor grade graphite is so expensive.

Also, has anyone ever tried to get a uv detector into a Case
cell - as Mills does with his gas phase cell?

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 15:50:09 2001
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From: Jed Rothwell 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Do you know if Case uses carbon with near zero boron content
>(reactor grade)?

Nothing like that! It is carbonized coconut shell. That's the standard 
material for commercial catalysts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 16:36:56 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:19:36 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> >Do you know if Case uses carbon with near zero boron content
> >(reactor grade)?

>Nothing like that! It is carbonized coconut shell. That's the >standard material for commercial catalysts.

Then I suppose an easy way to determine whether or not boron
could be responsible for some or all of his results would be
to compare two setups - one using reactor grade carbon as a
control, and either his normal material or material that was
deliberately enriched with boron, perhaps crushed boron
carbide.

If boron does play a role, then it is even more likely that
the deuterino (shrunken d), not the deuteron itself, is
responsible for the reaction (because d + b is so unlikely
to begin with).

As an aside: IF Case's results was someday shown to be a
"Mills' reaction" and IF Case's work preceded Mills, would
that invalidate a Mills' patent if he had one for the
deuterino reaction?  All three IFs are probably negative but
it is a curious predicament.

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 18:02:39 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:59:21 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:34:40 -0800:
[snip]
>> When the deuterino gets small enough, it can fuse with one of the D's,
>> resulting in He4 (this is where I cleverly avoid mentioning the absence of
>> gamma rays etc. - Oops ;).
>
>
>Do you know if Case uses carbon with near zero boron content
>(reactor grade)?
>
>The reason I ask is that the reaction:
>
>d + 10B= 4He + 8Be    >    8Be = 2 4He
>
>is ostensibly gamma-less, although any so-called gamma-less
>reaction that produces energetic alphas should produce
>secondary gammas. If a deuterino were involved, instead of a
>deuteron, perhaps the reaction would be somewhat less
>energetic.
This could be the secret!
If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all the
mass differential in stages, as UV! I.e. there may not be any mass
difference left to convert into energy during the actual fusion reaction,
and the fusion reaction would essentially be "energy free".
This would neatly explain the almost total lack of energetic products from
"CF" reactions.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 18:03:31 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:00:45 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:34:40 -0800:
[snip]
>The reason I ask is that the reaction:
>
>d + 10B= 4He + 8Be    >    8Be = 2 4He
>
I don't think this is the He producing reaction, because the energy/reaction
doesn't match what has been measured (i.e. D + D -> He4).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 18:50:49 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:40:33 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> This could be the secret!
> If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
> from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
> small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all the
> mass differential in stages, as UV! 


As much as I want to believe that Mills is right - there's a
small problem with that assessment. The mass/energy
differential between 2D and 4He is in the 10s of Mev -
whereas if you sum up all the UV stages involved in a
shrinking hydrino you are still lingering below Kev range.

> I.e. there may not be any mass
> difference left to convert into energy during the actual fusion reaction,
> and the fusion reaction would essentially be "energy free".
> This would neatly explain the almost total lack of energetic products from
> "CF" reactions.

The numbers don't fit unless there is something else going
on that is REALLY far out, such as the following or some
other similarly bizarre explanation:
Mass/energy conversion going "below ground state" is NOT a
not a normal 3 dimensional phenomena - then it does not
necessarily obey e=mc>e2. Instead it may "go the other way"
i.e. be more like e=mc>-e2 (or something extra dimensional). 

Now how do make that tongue-in-cheek smiley?

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 19:33:19 2001
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	What does ESPI stand for?

On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> They finally got their web page finished.
> 
>  http://www.espi-metals.com/metal.htm
> 
> FJS
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 19:38:48 2001
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Jones Been said:

> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> > This could be the secret!
> > If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
> > from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
> > small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all
the
> > mass differential in stages, as UV!

Where does Mills say that the energy release from hydrogen>hydrino shrinkage
comes from the mass of the nucleus? There is only a proton there. I believe
his point is that the energy release in the BLP reactions is greater than
chemistry and less than nuclear fusion. He wants no con-fusion (:-) between
BLP and nuclear processes of any kind, including all forms of fusion, hot or
cold.
>

> > This would neatly explain the almost total lack of energetic products
from
> > "CF" reactions.

I think the explanation is more complex than that. CF - NERL - CANR is
complex set of phenomena.
>
Mike Carrell


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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
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Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:40:33 -0800:

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> This could be the secret!
>> If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
>> from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
>> small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all the
>> mass differential in stages, as UV! 
>
>
>As much as I want to believe that Mills is right - there's a
>small problem with that assessment. The mass/energy
>differential between 2D and 4He is in the 10s of Mev -
>whereas if you sum up all the UV stages involved in a
>shrinking hydrino you are still lingering below Kev range.
[snip]
Actually the numbers don't work out too badly. Fusion isn't likely to take
place until the hydrino/deuterino is quite small, because that's the only
way they can get close enough. The total energy release (from infinite
separation) for the p'th level is p^2 x 13.6 eV, so for 23.8 MeV, p would be
about 1323, and the radius would be about 40 F).

This would also explain why He4 production appears to be easier than H based
reactions. In order to fuse with a metal nucleus, a hydrino has to wend its
way through the enshrouding electrons, while a deuterino can fuse with
deuteron that has lost its electron.
(The "underweight" deuterino neatly compensates for the "overweight"
deuteron, resulting in a "just right" Helium nucleus :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 20:50:35 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:46:06 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 22:42:12 -0800:

>Jones Been said:
>
>> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>
>> > This could be the secret!
>> > If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
>> > from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
>> > small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all
>the
>> > mass differential in stages, as UV!
>
>Where does Mills say that the energy release from hydrogen>hydrino shrinkage
>comes from the mass of the nucleus? There is only a proton there. 
He hasn't publicly said as much, AFAIK. This was an impression passed on by
Prof. Farrell in HSG.
As to there only being a proton there, well how does a collection of protons
and neutrons lose mass when fusing? I.e. what part of the particles actually
loses mass? Or is it the space around them that loses mass?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 21:22:05 2001
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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:21:31 -0600
From: Scott Little 
Subject: HiFi Replication Run 3
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The report on Run 3 is up:

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/Run3/Run3.html

In short, there is only a small apparent excess heat signal (less than 10% 
of the input power) if any.  The uncertainty arises because of problems 
with the calibration of our calorimeter.  Once again, it appears that this 
approach, isoperibolic calorimetry, leaves something to be desired, 
especially for electrolysis experiments.

The biggest problem, however, is that we don't see nearly as large a heat 
output power as Mills did in his version of the experiment. If we did, 
these little calibration problems would be almost negligible.

Now would be a good time for Mills to offer some constructive criticism of 
our efforts.


Scott Little
EarthTech International, Inc.
4030 Braker Lane West, Suite 300
Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185
512-346-3017 (FAX)
http://www.earthtech.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 22:51:01 2001
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From: "xplorer" 
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(thanx to all those private warnings)

Actually the plan is to incrementally
 heat the device.

Then by checking the temp as I raise
 its temp periodicly, I should be
 able to generate a controlled energy
 release.

As opposed to river rocks,
 this device has only one small
 open surface for egress of steam,
 which should allow boiling to take
 place early there while water in
 the interior remains liquid due to
 pressure. As the liquid vaporizes
 near the opening, water deeper inside
 should migrate expansively toward
 the opening.

Since there will be very little
 actual water content, the whole
 process should be rather anticlimactic.

Nevertheless, I suppose I had best
 use the rocket bunker technique...

cheers


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Louie Pelletier [mailto:jbunny goldcity.net]
> Sent: 2001 January 31, Wednesday 01:59
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: thermal ejecta
> 
> 
> i hope you use an expendable microwave. 
> you should have at least 2 inches of bullet proof
> glass between you and the microwave. when 
> you have trapped moisture in a solid, you have a bomb,
> when you apply heat. like using river rock to 
> crib your camp fire, is a mega no-no. 
> louis
>   
> -
> .Subject: thermal ejecta
> 
> 
> > 
> > On to a sideline experiment:
> > 
> > If water pressurized and heated
> >  to 400 K permeates a porous wall,
> >  (assuming the wall is 'thick'
> >  and remains heated to the
> >  same temp) it will radiate
> >  at what velocity as it leaves the
> >  wall ?
> > 
> > I filled a narrow-mouth jar
> >  with concrete. When it's fairly
> >  dry, I'll slip it into the microwave
> >  and set it for 'stun'.
> > 
> > I hope to see a flume of steam
> >  coming out the unsealed end,
> >  and maybe I'll find some way
> >  to see what kind of velocity
> >  the steam departs with...
> > 
> > you're all invited,
> >  come on over and watch the fun.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 30 23:48:04 2001
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 <3A774180.77C64EB6 pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 01:43:45 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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This is in response to a post by Robin.

>In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:34:40 -0800:
>[snip]
>>> When the deuterino gets small enough, it can fuse with one of the D's,
>>> resulting in He4 (this is where I cleverly avoid mentioning the absence of
>>> gamma rays etc. - Oops ;).
>>
>>
>>Do you know if Case uses carbon with near zero boron content
>>(reactor grade)?
>>
>>The reason I ask is that the reaction:
>>
>>d + 10B= 4He + 8Be    >    8Be = 2 4He

***{The above reaction is very similar to the following:

dn + 5B10 --> 2He4 + 4Be8* --> 3(2He4)

In the above, dn represents a "deuteroneutron"--i.e., one of the
hypothetical unstable particles, which, many years ago on spf, I suggested
may be produced when a deuterium nucleus meets an electron inside the Pd
lattice, where there isn't enough room for the electron to orbit at the
ground-state radius. In short, it is a shrunken deuterium atom (1H2) but is
unstable rather than stable.

A variant of the above, which I proposed in this group last year (see my
post of June 18, 2000, at 18:24), would involve a protoneutron (a shrunken,
unstable version of 1H1), as follows:

pn + 5B11 --> 6C12* --> 3(2He4) + 8.68 MeV

Without addressing the question of whether the shrunken hydrogen/deuterium
is stable as per the "hydrino" theory, or unstable as per the
"protoneutron" theory, it has seemed clear for some time that reactions
such as the above *must* be involved, if CF is real.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>>
>>is ostensibly gamma-less, although any so-called gamma-less
>>reaction that produces energetic alphas should produce
>>secondary gammas. If a deuterino were involved, instead of a
>>deuteron, perhaps the reaction would be somewhat less
>>energetic.
>This could be the secret!

***{Not if "hydrinos" are involved: if shrunken hydrogen atoms were stable,
the world would be awash in the things, and they would have been detected
decades ago. But if shrunken hydrogen atoms are wildly unstable, and can
only exist when a proton (or deuteron) meets an electron under cramped
conditions, where there isn't enough room for the electron to orbit at the
ground state radius--conditions such as exist in the octagonal cells of the
Pd lattice--then reactions such as the above offer the possibility of
explaining these obscure and difficult-to-replicate phenomena. --MJ}***

>If Mills is correct that the energy release from hydrino shrinkage comes
>from the mass of the nucleus, then by the time the hydrino/deuterino is
>small enough to get close enough to fuse, it may have already lost all the
>mass differential in stages, as UV! I.e. there may not be any mass
>difference left to convert into energy during the actual fusion reaction,
>and the fusion reaction would essentially be "energy free".
>This would neatly explain the almost total lack of energetic products from
>"CF" reactions.

***{There are lots of reasons for examining these sorts of reactrions.
Here, between the lines of asterisks, are some of them, as stated in my
post of June 18, 2000.

******************************
In order for there to be a definable entity that merits the label "cold
fusion," any ultimate theory of CF must have the following characteristics:

(1) It must involve nuclear fusion--i.e., the combination of two or more
nuclei into one.

(2) The fusion must occur under what may be reasonably termed "cold"
conditions--i.e., at temperatures easily attainable by a homebrew
experimenter.

(3) The theory must provide some mechanism that could enable nuclei to
overcome the Coulomb repulsion that, under normal conditions, prevents
fusion.

(4) The theory must provide a mechanism that explains why deadly neutron
and gamma radiation does not kill the experimenters.

(5) The theory must involve a heretofore unidentified key
ingredient--something that, due to chance, has sometimes been present in CF
cells and sometimes not, in order to explain the seemingly baffling
inconsistency in those results, and the parallel difficulties in
replication.

(6) The theory must make use of *instability*--i.e., some process that
tends very strongly *not* to occur--in order to explain why CF was not
discovered long ago.

With the above considerations in mind, let us suppose that 5B11--the most
common isotope of Boron--must be present in the Pd lattice as an impurity,
in order for the CF reaction to occur, and that the reaction in question
involves the fusion of a protoneutron with an atom of 5B11. The
protoneutron, as old hands in this group will recall, is defined by a
question--to wit: what happens if a proton meets an electron in a lattice
location where there isn't enough room for it to orbit at the innermost
Bohr radius? My hypothesis is that the electron spirals down to 'grazing
altitude' above the nucleus, forming a wildly unstable, neutral particle
which I have labeled a *protoneutron* (pn). (Note: a protoneutron and a
hydrino are *not* the same thing. The protoneutron is wildly unstable,
while the hydrino is alleged to be stable.) The reaction, in that case,
would be:

pn + 5B11 --> 6C12*                          (1

6C12* --> 3(2He4) + 8.68 MeV          (2

The above reactions get us past all the questions on my list, as follows:

(1) Reaction number (1, above, is a nuclear fusion reaction.

(2) The fusion occurs under what may be reasonably termed "cold"
conditions--i.e., at temperatures easily attainable by a homebrew
experimenter.

(3) The Coulomb repulsion that under normal conditions prevents fusion is
not a problem here, since the protoneutron is a neutral particle.

(4) Deadly neutron and gamma radiation does not kill the experimenters
because no neutrons or gammas are produced: reaction number (2, above, is a
pure alpha decay, and alphas are benign, short range particles that will
quickly dissipate their energy via collisions, producing heat in the
lattice.

(5) The theory involves a heretofore unidentified key ingredient--i.e.,
5B11--which in the past has undoubtedly sometimes been present in CF cells
and sometimes not, thereby explaining the seemingly baffling inconsistency
in those results, and the parallel difficulties in replication.

(6) The theory makes use of *instability*--i.e., wildly unstable
protoneutrons--in order to explain why CF was not discovered long ago.

The above, of course, is a mere hypothesis. Until people test it by
deliberately placing 5B11 in their electrolytes, in their cathodes, in the
catalyst of a Case type cell, etc., I will have no way of knowing whether
it is the missing key ingredient or not.

Whether it is or isn't, something like the above has to be what is
happening, assuming
that if CF is real.
******************************

So there you have it. :-)

By the way, those interested in the reaction 1H1 + 5B11 --> 3(2He4) + 8.7
MeV should
check out http://www.icone-conf.org/icone8/program/abstracts/8660.html.

I would add that, during the original discussion of this topic more than a
year ago, Ed Storms pointed out that considerable work has been done
investigating the role of boron impurities in CF electrolysis cells,
without definitive results.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 00:18:14 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:23:39 -0500 (EST)
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On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, xplorer wrote:

> 
> (thanx to all those private warnings)
> 
> Actually the plan is to incrementally
>  heat the device.
> 
> Then by checking the temp as I raise
>  its temp periodicly, I should be
>  able to generate a controlled energy
>  release.
> 
> As opposed to river rocks,
>  this device has only one small
>  open surface for egress of steam,
>  which should allow boiling to take
>  place early there while water in
>  the interior remains liquid due to
>  pressure. As the liquid vaporizes
>  near the opening, water deeper inside
>  should migrate expansively toward
>  the opening.
> 
> Since there will be very little
>  actual water content, the whole
>  process should be rather anticlimactic.
> 
> Nevertheless, I suppose I had best
>  use the rocket bunker technique...
> 
> cheers
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Louie Pelletier [mailto:jbunny goldcity.net]
> > Sent: 2001 January 31, Wednesday 01:59
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: thermal ejecta
> > 
> > 
> > i hope you use an expendable microwave. 
> > you should have at least 2 inches of bullet proof
> > glass between you and the microwave. when 
> > you have trapped moisture in a solid, you have a bomb,
> > when you apply heat. like using river rock to 
> > crib your camp fire, is a mega no-no. 
> > louis
> >   
> > -
> > .Subject: thermal ejecta
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > On to a sideline experiment:
> > > 
> > > If water pressurized and heated
> > >  to 400 K permeates a porous wall,
> > >  (assuming the wall is 'thick'
> > >  and remains heated to the
> > >  same temp) it will radiate
> > >  at what velocity as it leaves the
> > >  wall ?
> > > 
> > > I filled a narrow-mouth jar
> > >  with concrete. When it's fairly
> > >  dry, I'll slip it into the microwave
> > >  and set it for 'stun'.
> > > 
> > > I hope to see a flume of steam
> > >  coming out the unsealed end,
> > >  and maybe I'll find some way
> > >  to see what kind of velocity
> > >  the steam departs with...
> > > 
> > > you're all invited,
> > >  come on over and watch the fun.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 00:31:41 2001
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Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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At 8:27 AM 1/31/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Now about those missing gammas....Perhaps in a three particle collision
>where two of the three fuse into one, the remaining particle can share the
>momentum resulting from the energy release, allowing the formation of He4,
>rather than He3 or T. As to how this occurs, when the nucleus of the third
>atom is a full Å away...speculation is invited (light takes 3E-19 sec. to
>travel that far) :).

[speculation shield on]

One possibility is that simultaneous tunneling occurs.  Such simultaneity
of quantum tunneling events is not as far fetched as it may sound.  For
example, electron pairs tunnel across a Josephson junction as a pair over
50% of the time, despite a typical separation of more than an angstrom.

Perhaps it is possbile that an electron and hadron, both of charge 1, can
tunnel simultaneously while preserving energy balance. (Offering yet
another method of electron catalysis!)  CF might be an instant multi-body
tunneling event. The 3E-19 sec time limit would of course be moot, since
tunneling is instantaneous.

Further, the energy balance in tunneling events related to the nucleus, it
seems to me, must be related to the model of quantum reality being
employed.   Something I and others have occasionally discussed here is the
possibility that waveform collapse and tunneling of positive particles into
the nucleus might occur without the incoming particle having the required
preliminary potential energy to overcome the coulomb barrier.  If tunneling
is a wave phenomenon, not involving a "point like" particle that
necessarily gains or loses energy upon changing location within the nuclear
coulomb well, it seems reasonable that a negative particle, i.e. an
electron, could tunnel into a nucleus without gaining kinetic energy from
"falling into the coulomb well."  If such an event can happen on the way
in, a similar event can happen on the way out - all events can work either
way.  If an assemblage of nuclei can be placed in a configuration where
they are much closer than normal circumstances, as in a molecule containing
a hydrino, or possible merely in a metal lattice, then a series of particle
tunneling (esp. electron tunneling, which involves MUCH larger mean
distances than hadron tunneling) exchanges might occur directly via chains
of adjacent nucleii over a long distance, many angstroms.  Such exchanges,
if between nucleii of differing levels of excitement, would be capable of
releasing radiant energy, in a manner similar to electrons that tunnel back
and forth between two superconductors of differing potentials, radiating
away the energy of the potential drop across the gap for the electrons
involved.  Such an energy release via tunneling between nucelii would
involve many events and thus the energy levels per event would be far less
than the MeV levels characteristic of fast nuclear events.

[speculation shield off]

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 07:19:06 2001
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Hi All,

The following is an excerpt from a "panspermia" story that
can be found at

http://www.coxnews.com/newsservice/stories/2001/01-30-01SPACELIFE0130COX.html

Jack Smith

``Scientists duplicate possible seeds of life

By Mike Toner / Cox News Service, 01-30-01

ATLANTA - NASA researchers have found stunning
new evidence that interstellar space may be a
kind of cosmic incubator for some of the
essential chemical building blocks of life, a
discovery that heightens the chances that life
could exist elsewhere in the universe.

Scientists at the space agency's Ames Research
Center at Mountain View, Calif., reported Monday [1-29-01]
that by combining simple organic chemicals inside
a cold vacuum chamber that replicates the harsh
conditions of deep space they have created
primitive cells that mimic the membrane
structures found in all living things ... ''


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 07:28:58 2001
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Subject: [Fwd: Yahoo - Ginger inventor appears at Davos, stays mum]
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:23:29 -0400
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Tuesday January 30, 9:02 pm Eastern Time
"Ginger" inventor appears at Davos, stays mum
DAVOS, Switzerland, Jan 30 (Reuters) - You just can't keep a good idea 
like "Ginger" down. Even if no one is quite sure what the idea in 
question is.

Not hordes of instant Internet fans bent on finding out. Not media 
pundits so ready to comment on the purportedly revolutionary technology. 
And, apparently, not even the inventor himself.

``Ginger'' is said to be the code name of an invention under development 
by U.S. inventor Dean Kamen. The technology, also referred to as ``IT,'' 
is thought to be some sort of personal hovercraft or radical new 
transportation device.

``I'm working on ten different projects,'' Kamen said. ``I don't even 
know which one they were talking about,'' he told Reuters when asked 
about the armchair speculation that has swept up everyone from computer 
industry leaders to news anchors to the neighbor next door.

Kamen declined to comment further on his work, saying he was bound by a 
confidentiality agreement.

Kamen was at the World Economic Business Forum in Davos, appearing in 
public for the first time since speculation about the invention began 
spreading over the Internet and into broadcast and print media.

Word leaked out two weeks ago in a report on a book proposal presented to 
Harvard Business School Press about Kamen's secretive project. Computer 
industry leaders such as Apple founder Steve Jobs and top venture 
capitalist John Doerr were said to back the project.

But no one who knows anything is saying, leaving anyone who doesn't know 
to wonder.

Popular fascination with the endless possibilities has inspired a variety 
of Web sites devoted to discovering the inventor's secret, including 
GingerPoll (http://www.gingerpoll.com), the IT question 
(http://theITquestion.com) and links to various patent applications filed 
by Kamen.

Kamen joined a panel with Michael Dell, founder and chairman of Dell 
Computer Corp., to discuss ``Completing the Technology Revolution.'' 
During the panel discussion, Kamen again declined to comment on his work.

Other technology industry leaders appearing at the six-day meeting of 
global poltical and economic leaders were happy to join the high-tech 
world's latest parlor game and indulge their own guesses at what Kamen's 
mystery project might be about.

``I don't know what IT is. I think it stands for Individual Transporter, 
a scooter of some sort,'' said Michael Dertouzos, director of the 
Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lab for Computer Science.

Bill Joy, chief scientist at Sun Microsystems Inc. (NasdaqNM:SUNW - news) 
guessed it was a low- or zero-smog emission vehicle, built from carbon 
fiber and containing fuel cells as an energy generator.

The mystery continues. 



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 07:54:29 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:45:06 -0600
To: blp41 earthlink.net, wrgood@earthlink.net
From: Scott Little 
Subject: Replication of your work
Cc: hydrino eGroups.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Randall Mills and Bill Good,

It is our sincere goal to replicate the "excess" energy phenomena that you 
have reported. Please review our recent efforts:

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/intro.html

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/run1.html

and posted just yesterday...

http://www.earthtech.org/blp/HiFi/Run3/Run3.html

Although we are still pursuing this experiment it is now apparent that your 
cooperation is required for success.  That is, we have nominally replicated 
your experiment but it does not perform as you reported.

Successful replication of this experiment at Earthtech would be beneficial 
for both of us.  It would give us the opportunity to participate in 
research and development of your discoveries and that would amplify your 
overall progress towards commercialization.  Of course we would be willing 
to defend our own experimental results and that would provide additional 
credibility for your claims.

There is another approach which could launch this kind of cooperation more 
quickly than our present path.  We have a portable water-flow calorimeter 
(http://www.earthtech.org/vwfc/vwfc.html) that I could bring to your 
facility and apply to an existing device to verify your claim that it 
produces more heat output power than the input power required to drive it. 
I strongly recommend this approach, particularly if you have never tested 
your devices in a calorimeter of this type. Please note that this style of 
calorimetry need not "clamp" the device being tested to the temperature of 
the circulating water.  Any device temperature can be accommodated.

Thanks for your consideration.  I look forward to your response.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.   http://www.earthtech.org
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little earthtech.org (email)          

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 08:40:56 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 08:29:29 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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References: 
 <3A774180.77C64EB6 pacbell.net> 
 <3A777B21.4EBC0B4B pacbell.net> <005f01c08b50$f4223160$6b58ccd1@asus>
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Mike Carrell wrote:
 
> Where does Mills say that the energy release from hydrogen>hydrino shrinkage
> comes from the mass of the nucleus? There is only a proton there. 

So? Are you saying that a proton is the end of the line?

Given that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin,
any excess energy shed by a hydrino must necessarily come
from hydrogen mass - either the nuclear mass or the mass of
the electron. Mills hasn't given up on the "Second Law."
Although I can't quickly find an exact reference from Mills
himself on which avenue he envisions as the source - or the
exact mechanics of its conversion, it is fair to assume that
it is the nucleus, since only recently has he mentioned the
"shrunken electron" phenomena - after it received wide press
attention from other researchers.

>I believe his point is that the energy release in the BLP reactions is greater >than chemistry and less than nuclear fusion. He wants no con-fusion (:-) between
> BLP and nuclear processes of any kind, including all forms of fusion, hot or >cold.

Could that have anything to do with the fact that his only
chance at patent protection is to distinguish his work from
prior art? 

That would be particularly true in regard to distinguishing
it from the P&F reaction - which has already been denied
patent protection. If his is the same reaction - as Robin
suspects, then Mills may be sunk on the economic front even
though he eventually wins the Nobel for being the first to
explain it  ;-}

Lets not forget that the energy of chemical reactions is
also related back to mass/energy conversion, however small
it may be in comparison to nuclear.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 08:41:37 2001
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From: Terry Blanton 
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There's an excellent html copy of Kamen's Stirling engine patent
at:

http://www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 10:18:17 2001
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Mitchell Jones wrote:
 
> In the above, dn represents a "deuteroneutron"--i.e., one of the
> hypothetical unstable particles, which, many years ago on spf, I suggested
> may be produced when a deuterium nucleus meets an electron inside the Pd
> lattice, where there isn't enough room for the electron to orbit at the
> ground-state radius.

Quick question: 

Is there any correlate, or known mechanism, for binding two
neutrons together, even temporarily? Your assumption (based
upon 3 alphas from the reaction) is that 2 "virtual"
neutrons get to the B nucleus precisely together, which
implies a rather extended time frame for stability. Then
during the reaction, you suggest that one of the pair is
then transformed back to a proton - very convenient. 

Of course the deuterino, or shrunken deuteron, is equally
convenient from Mills point of view. But at least he
provides some physical evidence in the form of UV emissions
and astronomical data, etc. 

I guess one possible correlate to a putative deuteroneutron,
i.e. two temporarily bound neutrons, would be Cooper-paired
electrons - superconductivity. Do you know of experiments
where a beam of monoenergetic neutrons is cooled say by
passing through a cryogenic material? Perhaps that would
show some evidence of temporary stability if such exists.

>In short, it is a shrunken deuterium atom (1H2) but is unstable rather than stable.

Is your "deuteroneutron" also shrunken - i.e. below ground
state? 

How "unstable"? Spin might be a problem but maybe the
"gluon" doesn't care what it binds together - the bi-gluon 
;-> 

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 11:04:06 2001
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 <3A774180.77C64EB6 pacbell.net> 
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:51:55 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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>Mitchell Jones wrote:
>
>> In the above, dn represents a "deuteroneutron"--i.e., one of the
>> hypothetical unstable particles, which, many years ago on spf, I suggested
>> may be produced when a deuterium nucleus meets an electron inside the Pd
>> lattice, where there isn't enough room for the electron to orbit at the
>> ground-state radius.
>
>Quick question:
>
>Is there any correlate, or known mechanism, for binding two
>neutrons together, even temporarily? Your assumption (based
>upon 3 alphas from the reaction) is that 2 "virtual"
>neutrons get to the B nucleus precisely together, which
>implies a rather extended time frame for stability. Then
>during the reaction, you suggest that one of the pair is
>then transformed back to a proton - very convenient.

***{Now that's an interesting interpretation, and very logical. However,
that's not what I had in mind. My "deuteroneutron" is also a shrunken
deuterium atom, but, unlike the "deuterino" is presumed to be wildly
unstable, and capable of existing only when the electron that orbits the
deuteron does not have sufficient space to orbit at the ground state
radius. My idea is that if a deuteron--i.e., a positively-charged deuterium
nucleus--enters one of the octagonal cells in a loaded region of the Pd
lattice and there encounters an electron, the Coulomb attraction between
the deuteron and the electron will pull them together, but, due to the
space constraints, the electron will not be able to assume the ground-state
orbit. However, the attraction still applies, despite the lack of space.
Result: the electron will be forced into an unstable orbit near the
nucleus, and will continue there so long as the space constraints continue
to apply--i.e., so long as it remains in a loaded region of the palladium
lattice. Result: we do not have two neutrons bound together, but instead we
have a proton and neutron bound together (as a deuteron), and an electron
that is squeezed into a non-preferred orbit around them by lack of space.

The advantage of the above model--which I call the protoneutron model--is
that the neutral particles that are involved are *not* stable, and, as a
consequence, we don't have to explain why, in a universe that is mostly
hydrogen, we are not up to our armpits in them, and bathed by lethal
radiation from the nuclear reactions which they would mediate.

If you would like a fairly detailed exposition of the theory, go back into
the archives and read the thread entitled "Toward a Unifying Theory of CF,"
beginning with my post of June 18, 2000, at 17:24 p.m.

--Mitchell Jones}***

[snip]

>
>Jones Beene
________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 12:11:26 2001
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	Is this the "regular" vortex, or vortex-l ?

	Please.....How does one determine the difference?


			Thanks,

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 12:11:47 2001
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Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 02:06:19 -0000
From: panhead sol.racsa.co.cr
Subject: [jlnlabs] Alexandre Szames

Does anyone know what has become of Alexandre Szames? I ordered his 
book on Biefeld Brown and it never arrived. He replied to one inquiry 
on the matter and has been most helpful in the past. So it is 
somewhat strange that he is currently incommunicado.


Michael Grace


Messages archives at :

http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/

To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe egroups.com

JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 12:12:32 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:13:49 -0500
From: Terry Blanton 
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A very interesting article at:

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id773/pg1/

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 12:43:27 2001
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
Message-ID: <46.10040755.27a9d069 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:32:41 EST
Subject: A Stirling engine which runs on a Coffee cup demonstration
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--part1_46.10040755.27a9d069_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
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Dear All,

I have updated my web site with some pictures and a video about my Stirling=20
engine MM-1 model. I have purshased my own Stirling Engine model at the=20
American Stirling Company, the model is the "Coffee Cup Stirling Engine=20
MM-1". This model works very well and turns at a high speed on a simple=20
coffee cup filled with water and heated in a simple microwaves oven..

This is very fun and amazing.

For the builders, you will find also some links where you will find the full=
=20
diagrams and details for building yourself your own Stirling engine...

If you are interested, see in my web site at :

=A0http://memb=
ers.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/stirling.htm

Good experiments,

Best Regards
Jean-Louis Naudin (France)
Email: JNaudin509@aol.com
Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/


--part1_46.10040755.27a9d069_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,



I have updated my web site with some pictures and a video about my Stirl=
ing=20

engine MM-1 model. I have purshased my own Stirling Engine model at the=20

American Stirling Company, the model is the "Coffee Cup Stirling Engine=20

MM-1". This model works very well and turns at a high speed on a simple=20

coffee cup filled with water and heated in a simple microwaves oven..



This is very fun and amazing.



For the builders, you will find also some links where you will find the=20=
full=20

diagrams and details for building yourself your own Stirling engine...



If you are interested, see in my web site at :



=A0http://members.nbci.com/jlnlabs/html/stirling.htm<=
FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=
=3D"1">



Good experiments,



Best Regards

Jean-Louis Naudin (France)

Email: JNaudin509@aol.com

Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/



--part1_46.10040755.27a9d069_boundary--

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	What is the patent number?  Please.


On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Terry Blanton wrote:

> There's an excellent html copy of Kamen's Stirling engine patent
> at:
> 
> http://www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html
> 
> Terry
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 12:48:11 2001
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From: JNaudin509 aol.com
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:41:15 EST
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Yahoo - Ginger inventor appears at Davos, stays mum]
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Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 31/01/01 21:40:13 Paris, Madrid,=20
herman antioch-college.edu a =E9crit :


>=20
>     What is the patent number?  Please.
>=20
>=20

FYI : See the "The Dean Kamen stirling engine patent"...=20

http://www.de=
lphion.com/details?&pn=3DUS06062023__=20

http:=
//www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html=20

US6062023: Cantilevered crankshaft stirling cycle machine=20
Inventor(s): Kerwin; John , Weston, MA=20
Owens; Kingston , Bedford, NH=20
Norris; Michael , Manchester, MA=20
Kamen; Dean L. , Bedford, NH=20
Duggan; Tim , Epsom, NH=20
Langenfeld; Christopher C. , Nashua, NH=20
Applicant(s): New Power Concepts LLC, Manchester, NH=20
Issued/Filed Dates: May=A016,=A02000 / July=A014,=A01998=20
Application Number: US1998000115383=20

Abstract:=20
<>=20

Best Regards=20
Jean-Louis Naudin (France)=20
Email: JNaudin509@aol.com=20
Web site : http://go.to/jlnlabs/=20


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Dans un courrier dat=E9 du 31/01/01 21:40:13 Paris, Madrid,=20

herman antioch-college.edu a =E9crit :







    What is the patent number?  Please.







FYI : See the "The Dean Kamen stirling engine patent"...=20



http://www.delphion.com/details?&pn=3DUS06062023__=
=20



http://www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html=
=20



US6062023: Cantilevered crankshaft stirling cycle mach=
ine 

Inventor(s): Kerwin; John , Weston, MA=20

Owens; Kingston , Bedford, NH=20

Norris; Michael , Manchester, MA=20

Kamen; Dean L. , Bedford, NH=20

Duggan; Tim , Epsom, NH=20

Langenfeld; Christopher C. , Nashua, NH=20

Applicant(s): New Power Concepts=20=
LLC, Manchester, NH=20

Issued/Filed Dates: May=A016,=A02=
000 / July=A014,=A01998=20

Application Number: US19980001153=
83=20



Abstract:=20

<<A Stirling machine having two pistons coupled to a h=
armonic crank drive=20

linkage for providing a specified phase relationship between sinusoidal=20

displacements of each piston with respect to a fixed fiducial point. The=
=20

harmonic crank drive linkage has a primary crankshaft and an eccentric=20

crankshaft mounted internally to the primary crankshaft and coupled via=20=
a=20

gear set to counterrotate with respect to the primary crankshaft. The=20

eccentric crankshaft may be cantilevered with respect to the primary sha=
ft,=20

with the pistons of the engine coupled to the eccentric crankshaft exter=
nally=20

to the supporting bearings. A flywheel coupled to the eccentric cranksha=
ft=20

provides for operation of the engine with a zero net angular momentum. A=
n=20

intake manifold provides for mixing air and fuel for combustion heating=20=
of=20

the engine. >>=20



Best Regards=20

Jean-Louis Naudin (France)=20

Email: JNaudin509@aol.com=20

Web site : =
http://go.to/jlnlabs/=20



--part1_74.758e4db.27a9d26b_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 13:04:06 2001
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US#6,062,023


John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         What is the patent number?  Please.
> 
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> > There's an excellent html copy of Kamen's Stirling engine patent
> > at:
> >
> > http://www.stirlingengine.com/kamen/dean_kamen_patent.html
> >
> > Terry
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 13:26:18 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:22:31 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Jones 
Subject: Re: Q:
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>	Is this the "regular" vortex, or vortex-l ?
>
>	Please.....How does one determine the difference?
>
>
>			Thanks,
>
>				J

***{There is no "vortex" group per se, as far as I know. There is just
"vortex-l," where topics are supposed to focus primarily on anomalous
science and are subject to some generally rather light-handed moderation,
and "vortexb-l," where there is no primary focus and no moderation at all.
Until recently, vortexb-l was not archived and, thus, many discussions that
were perhaps better suited to that venue tended to appear on vortex-l. That
situation seems to have balanced out of late.

To tell which group a post is in, examine the "From" header. (You may have
the header display turned off on the e-mail program you use. If so, you
will have to read the manual and find out how to turn it on.)
Alternatively, for recent posts, those from vortexb-l contain [VxB] near
the beginning of the subject line. To determine where your replies will go,
all you need to know is that they will go to the same group as the message
to which you are responding, unless your headers specify otherwise.

--Mitchell Jones}***


________________
Quote of the month:

"Courage means going against majority opinion in the name of truth."
--Vaclav Havel

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 15:09:02 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:49:47 -0800
From: Jones Beene 
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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Greetings,

To place this complicated discussion into proper context -
it started as Robin's attempt to explain the Case cell
phenomena. In that particular experiment:

1.) excess heat (or at least temperature) is created when D
gas is moderately heated in the presence of a carbonaceous
catalyst that has been doped with a precious metal such as
Pd.

2.) significant amounts of He are evolved

3.) no gamma radiation is observed

There appear to be several possible explanations
including:

1.) measurement error - Earth Tech found no excess heat but
apparently did not check for helium.

2.) a deuterium+boron nuclear reaction

3.) a nuclear reaction of D or a neutron that has been
stripped from D with the carbon or metal catalyst - which
then produces a gamma-less alpha. 

4.) a deuterino or deuteroneutron boron nuclear reaction

5.) a D+D reaction (with a hedge on the gammas ala RS and
HH)

Lets assume for these purposes that there is no measurement
error - and that because of the Helium, it is unlikely to be
a pure Mills reaction, and because of the total lack of
gammas it is unlikely to be D+D - and furthermore that #2 or
3 above are also unlikely because of secondary gammas. So
looking at only 4 and 5:

What are the pros and cons of the deuterino vs.
deuteroneutron explanation?

Well the biggest initial problem I see with the
deuteroneutron for the Case theory is: it would still
probably produce secondary gammas. 

The fully collapsed deuterino eliminates this problem since
it would soak up almost almost all of the excess energy just
getting back up to ground state, BUT only if it gets fully
collapsed w/o radiating gammas.

A second problem with the deuteroneutron can be extrapolated
from this:

MJ: 
> Result: the electron will be forced into an unstable orbit near the
> nucleus, and will continue there so long as the space constraints continue
> to apply--i.e., so long as it remains in a loaded region of the palladium
> lattice. Result: we do not have two neutrons bound together, but insteadwe
> have a proton and neutron bound together (as a deuteron), and an electron
> that is squeezed into a non-preferred orbit around them by lack of space.

Then what is the transport mechanism that gets a
deuteroneutron from the Pd lattice into close enough
proximity to the B nucleus to interact?

OTOH, MJ:
> The advantage of the above model--which I call the protoneutron model--is
> that the neutral particles that are involved are *not* stable, and, as a
> consequence, we don't have to explain why, in a universe that is mostly
> hydrogen, we are not up to our armpits in them, and bathed by lethal
> radiation from the nuclear reactions which they would mediate.

Doesn't Mills address this to a degree in his book saying
(to paraphrase) that getting below ground state is a rare
and coincidental happening that depends on very precise
parameters, and once it happens (on earth) the hydrino
diffuses quickly into space. Hydrino formation does happen
in space and he has the data to back that up, but rarely do
secondary mediated nuclear reactions occur because the
proximity parameters are too restrictive (presumably).

This is just a first take.  

I have been struggling to place the Mills stuff within a
wider context for the last month, and so far at least,
despite numerous holes (to be expected) Mills explains a
number of LENR things better than almost anything (OK, the
skeptics out there will counter - except for the possibility
that hundreds of researchers all over the world are just too
sloppy. Guess it depends a little on how you view human
fallacy.  

Many Vortexians are probably far more conversant with Mills
work and can point out his errors more precisely?

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 16:34:03 2001
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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At 8:29 AM 1/31/1, Jones Beene wrote:

>Given that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin,
>any excess energy shed by a hydrino must necessarily come
>from hydrogen mass - either the nuclear mass or the mass of
>the electron.

The loss of kinetic energy of the electron in assuming a lower orbital
results in lesser momentum and thus, a relativistic loss in mass that
exactly equates to the loss in energy.  Mill's orbital energy formulations
are not unlike ordinary electron energy formulations, it is only the
hypothesized feasible states that are different.  In the case of the
ordinary atom quantum states, it is also the electron which gains or loses
mass/energy upon photon emission or absorbtion or upon chemical bonding.


At 9:49 AM 1/31/1, Jones Beene wrote:

>Is there any correlate, or known mechanism, for binding two
>neutrons together, even temporarily?

The answer is yes - neutrons have a magnetic monment the permits magnetic
binding.  In fact, about half of the binding energy of the deuteron itself
is due to the magnetic moments of the protron and neutron.  However, the
dineutron itself has an extremely short half life due to the fact the
neutrons themselves are unstable in the dineutron configuration, which is
not merely two attracted amgnets, but rather an entire signle nuclear
system which gives off a beta extremely rapidly, leaving a deuteron.
However, the dineutron half life IS long enough to bring about cold fusion.
See:

"Plausibility argument for a suggested mechanism for cold fusion", JL
Russel, Ann Nucl. Energy 17 (1990) p545

"Virtual electron capture in cold fusion", JL Russel, Ann Nucl. Energy 18
(1991) p75

Note. however, that the dineutron discussed above has NOTHING to do with
Mitchell Jones' protoneutron, or related particles, because the discussion
above is in regard to the actual formation of a particle (nucleus) via weak
interaction, neutrino emission, etc., not just an electron loosly binding
via some kid of constrained orbit.  You have to keep in mind that Mitchell
Jones' concepts have very little to do with conventional physics (except
maybe classical) and almost nothing to do witht the literature due to his
adherence to the principle of continuity.  This is not to knock his
perceptions but rather to point out that we are discussing apples and
oranges, i.e. not the same kinds of fruity ideas. 8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 17:41:08 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:35:23 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:49:47 -0800:
[snip]
>1.) measurement error - Earth Tech found no excess heat but
>apparently did not check for helium.

This type of experiment has also recently been done by McKubre with stunning
results according to Jed (I'd love to see the report).
[snip]
>The fully collapsed deuterino eliminates this problem since
>it would soak up almost almost all of the excess energy just
>getting back up to ground state, BUT only if it gets fully
>collapsed w/o radiating gammas.

I'm not sure that "just getting back up to ground state" is applicable here
(though it may be). It depends on whether or not nuclear mass is the source
of the energy released as the hydrino shrinks. 
As to radiating gammas, by the time the hydrino shrinks to the 1323 level,
the photon energy being radiated at each shrinkage step is about 2 x p *13.6
~= 3.6E4 eV. This is a reasonable x-ray.
If fusion happens before it get this far, then there will still be mass left
over, such that energy will need to be removed in some form after the
fusion.
[snip]
>Doesn't Mills address this to a degree in his book saying
>(to paraphrase) that getting below ground state is a rare
>and coincidental happening that depends on very precise
>parameters, and once it happens (on earth) the hydrino
>diffuses quickly into space. 

Mills, like everyone else doesn't yet have a great deal of experience with
Hydrinos. This isn't an unreasonable prediction, but may not necessarily be
true either. How hydrinos are going to react with normal matter could turn
out to be a bit of a surprise.
E.g. if hydrinos can find their way inside the electron shells of other
atoms, they may end up being trapped there for a while. This could slow down
their migration out of solid matter.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 17:42:09 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:40:28 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:41:58 -0900:

>At 8:29 AM 1/31/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>
>>Given that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin,
>>any excess energy shed by a hydrino must necessarily come
>>from hydrogen mass - either the nuclear mass or the mass of
>>the electron.
>
>The loss of kinetic energy of the electron in assuming a lower orbital
>results in lesser momentum and thus, a relativistic loss in mass that

I think the electron gains kinetic energy in lower orbitals.
Potential energy is reduced.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 18:02:57 2001
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Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jones Beene 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation

You are overlooking the Potassium that could run as high as
1.0 wt% (or more) in coconut shell activated carbon, Jones.

In biomass the potassium is invariably found to be tied up
as K2CO3. In "firing" to get activated carbon:

K2CO3 + 2 C ---> 2 K (Vapor) + 3 CO (gas)

Doesn't seem likely that the K is lost from the activated carbon lattice.

Now what?  :-)

Regards,  Frederick


> Greetings,
> 
> To place this complicated discussion into proper context -
> it started as Robin's attempt to explain the Case cell
> phenomena. In that particular experiment:
> 
> 1.) excess heat (or at least temperature) is created when D
> gas is moderately heated in the presence of a carbonaceous
> catalyst that has been doped with a precious metal such as
> Pd.
> 
> 2.) significant amounts of He are evolved
> 
> 3.) no gamma radiation is observed
> 
> There appear to be several possible explanations
> including:
> 
> 1.) measurement error - Earth Tech found no excess heat but
> apparently did not check for helium.
> 
> 2.) a deuterium+boron nuclear reaction
> 
> 3.) a nuclear reaction of D or a neutron that has been
> stripped from D with the carbon or metal catalyst - which
> then produces a gamma-less alpha. 
> 
> 4.) a deuterino or deuteroneutron boron nuclear reaction
> 
> 5.) a D+D reaction (with a hedge on the gammas ala RS and
> HH)
> 
> Lets assume for these purposes that there is no measurement
> error - and that because of the Helium, it is unlikely to be
> a pure Mills reaction, and because of the total lack of
> gammas it is unlikely to be D+D - and furthermore that #2 or
> 3 above are also unlikely because of secondary gammas. So
> looking at only 4 and 5:
> 
> What are the pros and cons of the deuterino vs.
> deuteroneutron explanation?
> 
> Well the biggest initial problem I see with the
> deuteroneutron for the Case theory is: it would still
> probably produce secondary gammas. 
> 
> The fully collapsed deuterino eliminates this problem since
> it would soak up almost almost all of the excess energy just
> getting back up to ground state, BUT only if it gets fully
> collapsed w/o radiating gammas.
> 
> A second problem with the deuteroneutron can be extrapolated
> from this:
> 
> MJ: 
> > Result: the electron will be forced into an unstable orbit near the
> > nucleus, and will continue there so long as the space constraints continue
> > to apply--i.e., so long as it remains in a loaded region of the palladium
> > lattice. Result: we do not have two neutrons bound together, but insteadwe
> > have a proton and neutron bound together (as a deuteron), and an electron
> > that is squeezed into a non-preferred orbit around them by lack of space.
> 
> Then what is the transport mechanism that gets a
> deuteroneutron from the Pd lattice into close enough
> proximity to the B nucleus to interact?
> 
> OTOH, MJ:
> > The advantage of the above model--which I call the protoneutron model--is
> > that the neutral particles that are involved are *not* stable, and, as a
> > consequence, we don't have to explain why, in a universe that is mostly
> > hydrogen, we are not up to our armpits in them, and bathed by lethal
> > radiation from the nuclear reactions which they would mediate.
> 
> Doesn't Mills address this to a degree in his book saying
> (to paraphrase) that getting below ground state is a rare
> and coincidental happening that depends on very precise
> parameters, and once it happens (on earth) the hydrino
> diffuses quickly into space. Hydrino formation does happen
> in space and he has the data to back that up, but rarely do
> secondary mediated nuclear reactions occur because the
> proximity parameters are too restrictive (presumably).
> 
> This is just a first take.  
> 
> I have been struggling to place the Mills stuff within a
> wider context for the last month, and so far at least,
> despite numerous holes (to be expected) Mills explains a
> number of LENR things better than almost anything (OK, the
> skeptics out there will counter - except for the possibility
> that hundreds of researchers all over the world are just too
> sloppy. Guess it depends a little on how you view human
> fallacy.  
> 
> Many Vortexians are probably far more conversant with Mills
> work and can point out his errors more precisely?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jones Beene
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 22:10:22 2001
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:17:56 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
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At 12:40 PM 2/1/1, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:41:58 -0900:
>
>>At 8:29 AM 1/31/1, Jones Beene wrote:
>>
>>>Given that energy and mass are two sides of the same coin,
>>>any excess energy shed by a hydrino must necessarily come
>>>from hydrogen mass - either the nuclear mass or the mass of
>>>the electron.
>>
>>The loss of kinetic energy of the electron in assuming a lower orbital
>>results in lesser momentum and thus, a relativistic loss in mass that
>
>I think the electron gains kinetic energy in lower orbitals.
>Potential energy is reduced.


Yes, you are certainly correct about that!  I had it completely backwards.
I am now not at all sure where I got the above, notion, though I thought I
had worked it all out before and everything balanced!  The kinetic energy K
of an electron in Bohr orbit radius r is given by:

   K = q^2/((8Pi)(e0)(r)) = (1/2)(m)(v^2)

So speed v is:

   v = (q^2/((4pi)(e0)(r)(m))^0.5

and momentum is thus ~ 1/r:

   p = mv = ((m)(q^2)/(4(pi)e0(r))^0.5

Given that the radius is quantized to:

   r = (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)),  for n = 1,2,3, ...
                                      (or in Mills' case: n = 1/2, 1/3, ...)
so:

   v = [q^2/(2(e0)(h))]  (1/n)

and thus:

   v ~ 1/n

The lower the quantum state, the smaller the radius, and the higher the
kinetic energy and momentum.

Photon emission and absorbtion, like electromagnetics in general, now makes
absolutely no sense to me at all.  The lower the quantum state, the higher
the electron kinetic energy.  The lower the quantum state, the higher the
mass of the atom.  If an atom excited above ground state emits a photon,
its electron increases in velocity, and thus its mass INCREASES.  This is
totally  mind boggeling.  Yes, the potential energy is lost, but that means
for mass/energy to remain constant in the universe there must be a mass
associated with potential energy.  Where does such mass arise?  It doesn
not seem the field itself is a likely candidate, in that the field strength
increase should offset the decrease in field volume.  Maybe I have that
wrong too.

It could be that I am merely confused.  I have been working on a problem in
number theory for some weeks now, and my wee old brain can only handle so
much at a time, so pushes old stuff from active memory back into the
cobwebs of storage to make room for the current problem.  What little I DO
now about physics is now mostly in some dusty old crate in the stacks.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 31 22:52:28 2001
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From: Robin van Spaandonk 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [theory]Case cell operation
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:51:14 +1100
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:17:56 -0900:
[snip]
>Given that the radius is quantized to:
>
>   r = (n^2) ((h^2)(e0))/((pi)(q^2)(m)),  for n = 1,2,3, ...
>                                      (or in Mills' case: n = 1/2, 1/3, ...)

Mills claims that for n=1/2,1/3 etc. r is proportional n rather than n^2.
He accomplishes this neat trick, by creating only one kind of charge, i.e.
positive without negative! :]

This is one of the possible weak points in his theory IMO.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

A Future For Humanity see: http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/