From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 00:38:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09929;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:35:46 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:35:46 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 03:33:20 -0500
From: Wolfram Bahmann <WBahmann compuserve.com>
Subject: NEWS from Germany
Sender: Wolfram Bahmann <WBahmann compuserve.com>
To: VORETX-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Cc: IE <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, NEN <halfox@slkc.uswest.net>,
        Hal Puthoff <puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <199712010333_MC2-2A33-4C9D compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id AAA09911
Resent-Message-ID: <"7Q0s12.0.3R2.WRdWq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13395
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

PRESS RELEASE               29. Nov. 97 

New DVS-Board

The German Association for Vacuum Field Energy (DVS in its German meaning),
founded in 1981, supports research and use of the new energy concepts known
commonly as vacuum field energy or zero-point-energy; e.g. charge cluster
technology and its various technological approaches, cold fusion,
sonoluminescence etc.

An important aim of the DVS is to arrange demonstrations of devices using
VFE and in doing so initiate a broad public discussion on that topic. 
VFE conversion based devices and methods for energy conversion and material
transmutation can lead to a sustainable economy and lifestyle - a vision of
great consensus facing the actual energy and environmental crisis.
 
During its member assembly Nov 22, 1997 a new DVS board has been elected.
It now con-sists of:
President: Prof. Dr. Dr. Josef Gruber, University of Hagen
1st vice president: Dr.-Ing. Gerd Harms, University of Hannover
2nd vice president and secretary: Dipl.-Met. Wolfram Bahmann, Mechernich

The other board members are:
Dipl.-Ing. Horst Borowski, Hamm, Dipl.-Ing. Klaus van Döllen, Oldenburg,
Dipl.-Ing. Hans-Werner Depcik, Düsseldorf, Dr. med. Hans Nieper, Hannover.

Based on the proposal of the new board the member assembly decided that the
annual membership fee will now include a subscription of the NET-Journal
published monthly in Switzerland by Jupiter-Verlag, the only German
language magazine dealing mainly with vacuum field energy.

Our new website is due to go online in 1998. This will facilitate more
efficient international contacts and exchange of information.

Additional information concerning the DVS is available from:
DVS-Sekretariat, Feyermühler Str. 12, 53894 Mechernich, Fax
+49/(0)2443-8221,
E-mail: wbahmann compuserve.com (both connections are preliminary)
or at the president Prof. Dr. Dr. J. Gruber, Fax +49/(0)2334-43781.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 05:25:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08537;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:20:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:20:49 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Crazy Quilt of The Vacuum and Mass-Energy
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:18:50 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcfe5b$aacd6dc0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zj8C_2.0.J52.lchWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13396
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

As stated earlier,one can argue that the only properties that the Vacuum
must possess are Capacitance C and Potential V, seems that all other
manifestations of the Universe such as charge q, energy W, Planck's constant
h, time t, speed of light c, the "fine structure constant alpha (0.00729729)
mass m, can come from these, or something like that.  :-)

C = the intrinsic capacitance of space,eo, 8.84E-12 farads/meter or
coulombs/newton-meter^2 times a length.

W = .5CV^2 = .5*q^2/C = mc^2 = n*h*c*alpha/2*(pi)*r = k*q^2/r  =  hf = h/t =
q^2/4*(pi)*eo*r

q = CV or CV/4(pi)^2 for the fundamental unit of charge;
+/- 1.602E-19 coulombs

2*(pi)*r = Lambda (wavelength) r = the amplitude of the wave.

uo = 4(pi)*1.0E-7 henry/meter or newton/ampere^2

c^2 = 1/uo*eo where uo is caused by the"displacement current" in the
charging of C

Then the vacuum is all (infinite)energy and any fraction of infinity is
still infinity?

Watts going on?  :-)


Regards,      Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 06:47:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15592;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:43:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:43:37 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971201093720.006a416c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:37:20 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
In-Reply-To: <3480C173.15B math.ucla.edu>
References: <971129093347_584966375 mrin46.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Y9bG.0.Xp3.LqiWq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13397
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  Regarding the electrodynamics posts, consider and distinguish
the role of phase (vs group) velocity:

>Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>> H. A. Haus, Institute Professor of electrical engineering at MIT, found
that
a charge moving at a constant velocity less than c doesn't radiate because it
has no Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of
light, not because it isn't accelerated.  
Haus derived his conclusion by straightforward, classical, Maxwellian math.
Haus pointed out that Cherenkov radiation (radiation from particles moving
through a medium in which the light velocity is less than c) was a natural
consequence of this derivation.  See H. A. Haus, "On the radiation from point
charges," Am. J. Phys. 54, 12 (December 1986), pp. 1126-1129.the relevance of 
Haus' condition for explaining why orbiting electrons don't radiate."

Barry Merriman wrote:
>No particular relevance, since it is just a general statement
>of a criteria for a current distribution to be non-radiative.
>It is well understood in E&M courses that special configurations
>such as a charge in uniform motion, a spherically symetric charge
>distribution oscillating radially,  and rotating but steady
>charge distributions do not radiate, because of symetry reasons.
>The main interesting question I see related to Haus's criteria
>is: can you use it to discover some previously unkown 
>non-radiative current configurations that are *not* simply
>byproducts of symeetry considerations? For example, is there
>a nontrivial motion for a *point charge* that produces no 
>radiation field?


  Was very fortunate to have had Prof. Haus as my teacher
too many years ago, and for too short a time. He even helped conduct
some labs involving gas laser mode-locking used to produce
picosecond pulses in ~1968. 

  Now, re: the above discussion of electrodynamics, agree with
Tom, but IMO it may be phase velocity which effects the 
radiation of electromagnetic energy.

  Agree with Barry too, except that although symettry plays a role in 
deriving the results, and in the other cases Barry cites,
the impact of radiation again, IMO results 
from phase velocity -- and not necessarily group velocity 
such as discussed, or suggested, or not considered in some of the
otherwise very thoughtful vortex posts. [Nice to science here again <g>]


 My suggested statement of the conditions for electromagnetic 
radiation is:

  A charged particle which is accelerating, OR
which is undergoing constant velocity in a medium where
the particle velocity exceeds the phase velocity of light
in the medium, will radiate.


  The former is well known, and of course results from
special relativity.

 The latter creates Cherenkov radiation which results from
the condition cited above which creates a shock wave when
the condition is met: 
                      v(particle) > c(phase).

 BTW phase velocity can be surprisingly 
much faster than group velocity (even faster than "c".
This even occurs when ocean waves hit the beach at an angle 
approaching 90 degrees away from the ocean deep.
 Jackson's "Classical Electrodynamics" and Adler, Chu, Fano's
"EM Energy Xmission and Radiation" may be some good places 
to begin to follow this. 

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 07:08:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27451;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:03:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:03:39 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b0a87da96038 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 06:05:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: The Crazy Quilt of The Vacuum and Mass-Energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"1NO2R1.0.mi6.97jWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13398
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:18 AM 12/1/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>As stated earlier,one can argue that the only properties that the Vacuum
>must possess are Capacitance C and Potential V, seems that all other
>manifestations of the Universe such as charge q, energy W, Planck's constant
>h, time t, speed of light c, the "fine structure constant alpha (0.00729729)
>mass m, can come from these, or something like that.  :-)

For all mass accelerated:

W = m*c^2         (Einstein) so:
dW = dm*(c^2)

For photons:

W = h/lambda    (Plank)
h = p*lambda    (de Broglie) so:
W = p
dW = dp
dp = dm*(c^2)
dW = dm*(c^2)

In all cases:

dW = dm(c^2)

Therefore energy is not converted to matter, nor is matter converted to
energy. With the exception of vacuum fluctuations, which can momentarily
change the universal total, the two remain forever in balance.


>
>Watts going on?  :-)
>
>
>Regards,      Frederick


Massive watts happening?  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 12:09:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02816;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:54:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:54:59 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:54:19 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971201134225_1423161234 mrin84.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"G6Geb1.0.ih.HOnWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13399
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote on Nov. 29, re Haus' condition, "Electrons moving a
constant linear velocity are not known to radiate, except by Cherenkov
radiation, and atoms aren't flat, so the above must mean constant angular
velocity when applied to orbitals?"

Haus, Institute Professor of electrical engineering at MIT, didn't say
constant angular velocity, and neither did I.  Haus said constant velocity,
which unless otherwise specified means constant linear velocity.  And in the
abstract of his article, Haus used the little bar over the letter v to denote
a linear velocity vector.

Horace asked me to be more specific about the assumptions of Haus' article.  
Here's the abstract:

"An alternative derivation of the radiation field of a point charge is
presented.  It starts with the Fourier components of the current produced by
the moving charge.  The electric field is found from the vector wave
equation.  Each step in the integration permits physical interpretation.  The
retarded time appears very naturally in this derivation.  The interpretation
of the present derivation is that a charge at constant velocity v (abolute
value of v < c) does not radiate, not because it is unaccelerated, but
because it has no Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the
speed of light.  Of course, Cherenkov radiation in a medium, in which the
velocity of electromagnetic propagation is less than c, is the classic
example of radiation by a charge moving at constant velocity."

Haus was at MIT's Research Laboratory of Electronics and was working on
free-electron lasers at the time.  In his December 1986 article in AMERICAN
JOURNAL OF PHYSICS (Vol. 54, No. 12, pp. 1126-1129), Haus presented a new,
clearer, and more physical derivation of an old result, which was the kind of
paper that the journal liked to publish.

Barry Merriman and Mike Carrell both pointed out that Mills used Haus'
condition (actually a generalization of Haus' condition) as the starting
point for developing a new model of the hydrogen atom.  As far as I know,
Haus didn't have anything to do with that, and I didn't mean to open a debate
about it.  My question was whether Haus' condition had any relevance to the
nonradiation of the standard model orbiting electron, a question that Haus
didn't address in this article.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 12:37:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09160;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:18:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:18:48 -0800
Message-ID: <34830DE0.16AB earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 13:20:00 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Jones:re: Will, Miles: re Jones on CF Calorimetry
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"9ah2f2.0.1F2.dknWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13400
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Received: from physc1.byu.edu (physc1.byu.edu [128.187.18.9])
	by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18327
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:34:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712011834.KAA18327 belize.it.earthlink.net>
Received: from physics1.byu.edu by physc1.byu.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Mon,
          01 Dec 1997 11:34:34 MST/MDT
Received: from ESC_PHYSICS1/SMTPQUEUE by physics1.byu.edu (Mercury 1.1); Mon, 1
          Dec 97 11:33:44 MST7MDT
From: "STEVE JONES" <SEJONES PHYSICS1.BYU.EDU>
Organization:  BYU Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:33:08 MST7MDT
Subject: Re: Will, Miles: re Jones on CF Calorimetry
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01)



> On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Melvin Miles wrote:

> An eminent scientist, Dr. Fritz G. Will,has totally shot down Steve
> Jones' concept that recombination can account for most reports of excess
> heat. Details are available in Dr. Will's publication: Journal of
> Electroanalytical Chemistry,Vol.426,pp.177-184, 1997. 
> 
> Roger M. Hart, an expert on calorimetry, visited my laboratory in 1995.
> He agreed with my published error range, i.e. 20 mW or 1 % of the input
> power, whichever is larger. My reply to Steve Jones will hopefully soon
> be published by the Journal of Physical Chemistry after a long,
> difficult battle for me to be permitted to respond. 

In his paper, Fritz Will attributes a quote to us that does not 
appear in our paper, nor in any of our publications: "... recombination can 
account for most (if not all) currently available reports of excess 
heat in light water cells".    I think this mis-quote may be the root of 
many misunderstandings on our point of view.  We may have made this 
statement in an early draft -- but in any case this was not published 
because it does not represent our collective view.  What we published 
is this:

"Failure to rule out prosaic explanations probably invalicates all 
the currently available reports of excess heat in both light water -- 
Ni/Pt and heavy water -- Pd/Pt cells."  In the published paper we 
delineate several prosaic explanations in addition to errors 
associated with "recombination."  (That word does not appear in our 
paper, according to my checking.)

Yet Will cites our published paper as the source of his erroneous 
quotation!  This is an unfortunate example of misinformation.   There 
is much more that is flawed in Will's paper -- for example, he does 
not respond to our published concerns about the accuracy of 
calorimetry in several reports of excess heat.  Instead, he focusses 
only on "recombination" questions.  Nor does he refer to our studies 
at high current densities, only an earlier study at low current 
density.

In effect, Will has raised a strawman argument regarding 
"recombination" as accounting for most or "all" cold fusion claims, 
then he refutes this argument.  We did not make the claim he is 
refuting!  Indeed, I cannot even find the very early draft that he is 
probably quoting (while he cites our published paper, which does not 
contain the statement he quotes).  He may have even misquoted the 
early draft, or whatever his source was.  Will's analysis is quite 
elegant -- too bad it was not based on the paper he cites!

In our rebuttal, we point out these problems in Will's paper.

Finally, let me say that I personally wrote to the editor of the 
Journal of Physical Chemistry and urged him to allow Melvin to 
publish his rebuttal.  I believe Melvin's "difficult battle" has more to 
do with reviewer comments on Melvin's rebuttal -- and I was not a reviewer 
for this.  We have written a response to his rebuttal, and Melvin 
wrote a response to our response.  I hope this can all be published (and 
ended) quickly now. 

Best wishes,
Steven Jones

PS-- My own "fusion" work focusses largely now on 
Solar Cookers for Third World peoples.  
Our Solar Funnel cooker has now been tested along side 
other solar cookers on the Altiplano in Bolivia -- and it outperformed 
them, yet is much less expensive.  We are donating more now to 
Guatemala, and I hope they will be demonstrated and begin use there 
in January 1998.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 12:39:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10786;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:25:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:25:59 -0800
Message-Id: <199712012026.PAA20552 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: New Yorker on "Pathological Science"
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 15:34:34 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QdgPe1.0.Je2.JrnWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13401
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This was just passed to me by Dr. Marcello Truzzi:

******


Just a note to call your special attention to the article "Pathological
Science" by Richard Rhodes in the Dec. 1, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER
(pp. 54-59). The article describes the controversy over the Nobel Prize
being given to Stanley B. Pruisner for his "discovery" of prions (and
their role in mad-cow disease) in protein, a view which is contested by
many who still think there is a viral cause and that prions don't really
exist. Rhodes argues that Pruisner's prions claim fits the model of
"pathological science" earlier described in Langmuir's famous (and, in
my opinion misguided) 1957 paper that coined that label. If Rhodes is
right (and Pruisner wrong), this is a terrific episode in the politics
of science.

-- Marcello

****

This shows how virulent and widespread the disgusting bigotry of the 
scientific establshment and those whom it influences has become. I 
thought that Rhodes was a good man. I'll have to revise my impression of 
him.

Though I have not yet seen the article, I'll bet greater than even odds 
that he has also brought up cold fusion.

Little known fact about Langmuir, by the way: I am told by two competent 
(and independent) meteorologists that Langmuir peristed in trying to make 
sodium-iodide cloud-seeding into a viable technology long after it was 
clear that it had very limited application -- if any. So, was Langmuir a 
"pathological technologist"?

Gene Mallove

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 12:41:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12350;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:34:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:34:02 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007804b0a8cdc4ac04 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <971201134225_1423161234 mrin84.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:38:12 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"_9A3W3.0.p03.uynWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13402
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I haven't read H. Haus' paper in Am. J. Phys., and so far I've stayed out
of this thread.  However, now that Tom Stolper posted the abstract, I can
make a few comments.

It looks very likely that Haus presented an alternative derivation (meaning
by a diffenent mathematical path) of the electromagnetic field of an
unaccelerated electron, and that he got the standard result.

Haus was one of my professors.  He and the other good profs. there put
substantial effort into analyzing the foundations of electromagnetism from
various points of view, in order to (a) be able to teach with confidence
and accuracy, and (b) to be able to present the material to the students
from the most logical point of view.  These were not profs. that just read
stuff out of textbooks, an image that some on this list impute to "the
academic establishment."  Anyway, the paper in question appears to be one
of these "probing the foundations to be able to teach better" papers.

>Barry Merriman and Mike Carrell both pointed out that Mills used Haus'
>condition (actually a generalization of Haus' condition) as the starting
>point for developing a new model of the hydrogen atom.
[snip]  My question was whether Haus' condition had any relevance to the
>nonradiation of the standard model orbiting electron, a question that Haus
>didn't address in this article.

Since the paper deals with uniform, unaccelerated motion, it has no bearing
on an electron moving in the electric field of a nucleus.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 13:20:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12632;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:03:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:03:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0a8d140d9b1 [199.237.131.227]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:04:12 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"dhrAC.0.H53.7OoWq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13403
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sorry, I misunderstood.  I thought when you wrote at 9:33 AM 11/29/97:

"Now the recent discussion of ZPE, including a mention of the possibility
that ZPE may replenish the energy allegedly lost by an orbiting electron,
makes me wonder whether Hal Puthoff or Martin Sevior or Michael Schaffer
have an opinion about the relevance of Haus' condition for explaining why
orbiting electrons don't radiate."

that you were asserting the notion that because:

"a charge moving at a constant velocity less than c doesn't radiate because
it has no Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed
of light, not because it isn't accelerated."

that somehow the non-radiation of orbital electrons was somehow accounted
for, that the "energy allegedly lost" was not lost, thus negating the need
for ZPE to create the balance.  I took it as a direct frontal attack on ZPE
and could not make sense of it as there seemed to be no relevance.

Now I get it though. You are merely asking Hal Puthoff or Martin Sevior or
Michael Schaffer if they can extend Haus' theory to account for no lost
energy of orbital electrons, and thus negate Puthoff's theories.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 14:09:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20500;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:53:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:53:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:52:04 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <v01530500b0a8d140d9b1 [199.237.131.227]>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <5E984C54EA hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"qe5eP2.0.A05.K7pWq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13404
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

    While we are on this subject, I guess I'll throw out another 
question into the fray.  When we talk about an electron "orbiting" a 
nucleus, are we putting too much thought into the Bohr model of the 
atom, or is everyone else thinking on a much higher level than I am?  
Since the wave function for an electron at the ground state is time 
independant, can't we just say that although the electron may be 
observed at different locations around the nucleus, the wave 
function itsself isn't changing with time so there isn't need of 
radiation?  
     This should work for a "particle in a box" too, since the 
classical interpretation would be a particle bouncing back and forth 
between walls, accelerating as it does so.  But the wave function is 
again time independant, and thus even if the particle is charged 
there won't be any radiation (at ground state).  Maybe I have missed 
the point, but if so, could someone maybe help me out with the 
unsatisfactory nature of this explaination?

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 18:55:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24577;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:49:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:49:31 -0800
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <3483772D.738C math.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:49:17 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New Yorker on "Pathological Science"
References: <199712012026.PAA20552 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KpTZE3.0.t_5.vStWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13405
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

E.F. Mallove wrote:
> 
> This was just passed to me by Dr. Marcello Truzzi:
> 
> ******
> 
> Just a note to call your special attention to 
> the article "Pathological Science" by Richard Rhodes in 
> the Dec. 1, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER
> (pp. 54-59). The article describes the controversy 
> over the Nobel Prize being given to Stanley B. Pruisner
>  for his "discovery" of prions (and
> their role in mad-cow disease) in protein


Hmm...Rhodes is the author of the new book 

Deadly Feasts : Tracking the Secrets of a Terrifying New
                    Plague
                    by Richard Rhodes

(check it out at amazon.com 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0671576607/6206-8802881-773613
)
Which I read a few days before the nobel prize was announced,
coincidentally.

The book is excellent. Based on its content, I can't imagine
Rhodes arguing that "prions"---or more precisely, whatever the
real infectious agent underlying spungeform diseases is, prions
being one strong candidate---are not a real threat. However,
Rhodes does argue very directly in the book that Pruisner
does not *deserve credit* for the discovery of prions....by
Rhodes account, Pruisner was more of an oppurtunist who built a 
career around the Prion theory, and set himself about displacing
credit from other people to further his own career goals,
while the key experimental
and theoretical foundations were layed by the doctor (and
earlier Nobelist) who investigated Kiru disease, and a british
mathematician in the 1960's who argued for the possibility 
on non-dna based infectious organisms behind cerebral 
spungeform diseases.

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  1 18:55:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24913;
	Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:50:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:50:41 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re:Speculations on Orbital Stressing Mechanisms
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:48:08 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcfecc$b973f8a0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"vizGD3.0.s46.xTtWq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13406
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Remember this thread,Horace. Mind wandering?  :-)

In the water molecule the bond distance of the two hydrogens to the oxygen
is 1.0E-10 meters (one angstrom).

If a water molecule is against a negatively charged electrode such as the
cathode in the electrolysis cells or even a dry metal, the distance from a
free electron of the metal to the nucleus is also one angstrom. Thus since
the potential V = kq/r there would be a potential on the order
of 14.4 volts and a field of 1.44E11 volts/meter as opposed to the potential
of 27.2 volts at 0.53 angstroms for the
orbiting hydrogen atom with a field of 2.72E11 volts/meter.

I would think (recklessly)that surface conditions that could in effect
double q, would "stress" the orbit even more.

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 02:27:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24280;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:20:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:20:04 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail2.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3483D0C4.7A6F8396 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:11:32 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
References: <971201134225_1423161234 mrin84.mail.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ST0RM.0.Fx5.I3-Wq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13407
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tstolper aol.com wrote:
 
"... My question was whether Haus' condition had any
 relevance to the nonradiation of the standard model
 orbiting electron, a question that Haus didn't
 address in this article.
 
 Tom Stolper"

This is a very interesting thread.  Would anyone
care to comment on Frank Z.'s statement that
"the mass energy of the electron is reflected
back upon itself ..."

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 02:56:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23330;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:50:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:50:37 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Capacitance, Potential and String Particles?
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:48:37 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcff0f$d819e7e0$3891410c default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"VHAja.0.Hi5.xV-Wq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13408
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

String Theory proposes that particles are one-dimensional
"strings" having length only.This is consistent with the premise that the
Universe needs only the properties of Capacitance C and Potential V.

Since the Permittivity or Capacitance of space, 8.84E-12 Farads/meter or
Coulombs/Newton-meter^2, if there is variation in length of the "String" the
capacitance varies in Simple Harmonic Motion (SHM).

Thus energy W = .5CV^2 and Q = CV (or CV/4(pi)^2 for the fundamental unit of
charge +/- 1.602E-19 coulombs with the sign being a matter of phase of the
oscillations) is determined by the "fixed" length of the "String" and the
oscillations of length about the equilibrium length give the wave properties
of matter.

A graph of SHM of a point oscillating back-and-forth gives
a sine curve as well as circular motion, thus outwardly the oscillations may
be perceived as circular thus giving the illusion of "Spin", "Wavelength"
and a "Radius" equal to
the Amplitude of the oscillations.

This would also explain why so many "Quarks" can fit into a composite
nucleus like "Angels on the head of a pin". :-)

I'll defer to Horace to fill in the blanks.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 05:06:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01629;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:02:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:02:23 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Oscillating String-Ring Particles
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:42:50 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcff1f$ccd7e020$3891410c default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"LJQtW3.0.MP.UR0Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13409
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The String Theory proposes one-dimensional "Strings" that can oscillate in
length only. Thus a particle could be a "Ring" that oscillates in diameter
thus allowing W = .5CV^2
where C = eo*2(pi)*r and since the fundamental unit of charge q = 1.602E-19
= CV/4(pi)^2 = eo*2(pi)r*V^2/4(pi)^2 (coulombs)as the "ring" oscillates in
diameter the charge must remain constant for any particle.

This gives a visualization for a particle being a ring stationary in
space(has mass-inertia) as opposed to a photon being an open-ended string
that traverse space at c
showing mass-inertia only when colliding with matter. The oscillation
velocity of expansion-contraction of the rings should be at a velocity of
Alpha*c, where Alpha is the "fine structure constant" 0.00729729.

Alpha should also "Quantize" the ring size and allow more
energetic (smaller)rings to "shrink" the larger (less energetic)ones down to
fit into a nucleus.

The period of ring expansion-contraction T^2 = 4(pi)^2*r/a
where a is the acceleration of expansion-contraction of the ring.

I'm going back to bed.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 06:30:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13314;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:26:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:26:21 -0800
Message-ID: <34840CC6.7A0B earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 07:27:34 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, shellied@sage.dri.edu,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil
Subject: Coup Europa: nothing funnier than humorless conspiracy theory
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"IMaTb2.0.xF3.Cg1Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13410
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Received: from mail.hughes.net (mail.hughes.net [205.139.34.24])
	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03230
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [202.37.201.155] by mail.hughes.net
          (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13727) with SMTP id AAA17869;
          Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:40:44 -0800
Message-ID: <3483C82E.6805 mediacity.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:34:54 +1200
From: "M.Twain" <muse mediacity.com>
Reply-To: ratbag hughes.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, nfilters@clark.net,
        obrl-news jefferson.village.Virginia.edu, olso3562@novell.uidaho.edu,
        openway nor.com.au, orbitx@ois.com.au, pa920493@oak.cats.ohiou.edu,
        Pencimen aol.com, perkins3@llnl.gov, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro,
        Philippe.Lebourg itmi-aptor.capgemini.fr, plskeggs@inetarena.com,
        pmk plasmak.com, PRobb26666@aol.com, PROTIEUS@aol.com,
        qrt.o.tina swipnet.se, quanres@whc.net, rasaeboe@online.no,
        rawlings mtnhome.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        redesign pavilion.co.uk, reed@zenergy.com, retroman@together.net,
        rhg techfak.uni-kiel.de, richarda@icx.net, richard.wood@usa.net,
        rich.boylan 24stex.com, rjb@gibbs.eng.ohio-state.edu,
        rmforall earthlink.net, rmuha@minimal.com, RobXXVIII@aol.com,
        RoConroy aol.com, roosaw@soc.mil, roshicorp@roshi.com, rown@xtra.co.nz,
        RTorgerson aol.com, rvanspaa@eisa.net.au
Subject: Coup Europa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks,

Thought I had better send out a copy of this.  Before I get steamrolled.

Millennium

_____________________________

Re: Coup Deutsch
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:45:17 +1200

Don,

I really can't answer you re: the details of the history of the Einstein
fraud -- not in the detail you want.  None of my many files or books are
at hand, and I need occasional reinforcement and reference when
discussing such historical, technical and controversial issues.

Let me give you a couple of data points, that I may not have already
mentioned, to give you the flavor.

The only reason the nitwit Einstein (scatterbrained, intuitive) got
published is because Max Planck was the editor of the journal in
question.  His stuff is nonsense, and full of mathematical, contextual,
logical and phenomenological errors.  Planck was a darling of the
money/power autocracy in Germany.  [Family connections to Siemens Corp.]
As a young man he was posted to the local University as a full
professor, over the ten times more accomplished (name forgotten) --

OK.  Here's the dope.  Had to sort through Bruce's books to remind me of
the names.

-- associate professor Boltzmann was the man whom they slighted.  A
decade or more qualifications, experience, depth and insight than the
faker Planck.  They treated Boltzmann like trash, as he came from a
common background.  Anyway, to make a long story short (try and find
THIS in the physics texts) -- Boltzmann went into a several year
depression and finally committed suicide.

After Planck initiated the fraud of Einstein, another German physics
figurehead (Helmholtz I believe) stood up and gave his complete
endorsement to the Einstein counter-intelligence.  After that it became
a European (not just German) steamroll of the easily led Amerikans.  [It
is closely aligned with the Copenhagen interpretation, or coup, of
quantum mechanics.]  This European fraud (to Amerika and the USSR and
the rest of the world) successfully allowed Europe to defer public
discussion of the structure of the electron, proton, neutron, atom and
nucleus for the balance of the century.

How's that for epoch-making!

MT




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 07:03:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18878;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:58:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:58:41 -0800
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:52:39 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, shellied@sage.dri.edu,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil
Subject: CFLTC   Coup Europa: nothing funnier than humorless conspiracy theory
In-Reply-To: <34840CC6.7A0B earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971202094931.27374A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"SIVUO1.0.uc4.W82Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13411
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Contusions From Leaping To Conclusions


	There is a quite interesting field of the study of the history 
and ethics of science.  I am a scholar of the History and Ethics of 
Science ... and   !! This is not an example !!

					JHS


On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

> Received: from mail.hughes.net (mail.hughes.net [205.139.34.24])
> 	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03230
> 	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:45:42 -0800 (PST)
> Received: from [202.37.201.155] by mail.hughes.net
>           (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-13727) with SMTP id AAA17869;
>           Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:40:44 -0800
> Message-ID: <3483C82E.6805 mediacity.com>
> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:34:54 +1200
> From: "M.Twain" <muse mediacity.com>
> Reply-To: ratbag hughes.net
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, nfilters@clark.net,
>         obrl-news jefferson.village.Virginia.edu, olso3562@novell.uidaho.edu,
>         openway nor.com.au, orbitx@ois.com.au, pa920493@oak.cats.ohiou.edu,
>         Pencimen aol.com, perkins3@llnl.gov, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro,
>         Philippe.Lebourg itmi-aptor.capgemini.fr, plskeggs@inetarena.com,
>         pmk plasmak.com, PRobb26666@aol.com, PROTIEUS@aol.com,
>         qrt.o.tina swipnet.se, quanres@whc.net, rasaeboe@online.no,
>         rawlings mtnhome.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
>         redesign pavilion.co.uk, reed@zenergy.com, retroman@together.net,
>         rhg techfak.uni-kiel.de, richarda@icx.net, richard.wood@usa.net,
>         rich.boylan 24stex.com, rjb@gibbs.eng.ohio-state.edu,
>         rmforall earthlink.net, rmuha@minimal.com, RobXXVIII@aol.com,
>         RoConroy aol.com, roosaw@soc.mil, roshicorp@roshi.com, rown@xtra.co.nz,
>         RTorgerson aol.com, rvanspaa@eisa.net.au
> Subject: Coup Europa
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Thought I had better send out a copy of this.  Before I get steamrolled.
> 
> Millennium
> 
> _____________________________
> 
> Re: Coup Deutsch
> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:45:17 +1200
> 
> Don,
> 
> I really can't answer you re: the details of the history of the Einstein
> fraud -- not in the detail you want.  None of my many files or books are
> at hand, and I need occasional reinforcement and reference when
> discussing such historical, technical and controversial issues.
> 
> Let me give you a couple of data points, that I may not have already
> mentioned, to give you the flavor.
> 
> The only reason the nitwit Einstein (scatterbrained, intuitive) got
> published is because Max Planck was the editor of the journal in
> question.  His stuff is nonsense, and full of mathematical, contextual,
> logical and phenomenological errors.  Planck was a darling of the
> money/power autocracy in Germany.  [Family connections to Siemens Corp.]
> As a young man he was posted to the local University as a full
> professor, over the ten times more accomplished (name forgotten) --
> 
> OK.  Here's the dope.  Had to sort through Bruce's books to remind me of
> the names.
> 
> -- associate professor Boltzmann was the man whom they slighted.  A
> decade or more qualifications, experience, depth and insight than the
> faker Planck.  They treated Boltzmann like trash, as he came from a
> common background.  Anyway, to make a long story short (try and find
> THIS in the physics texts) -- Boltzmann went into a several year
> depression and finally committed suicide.
> 
> After Planck initiated the fraud of Einstein, another German physics
> figurehead (Helmholtz I believe) stood up and gave his complete
> endorsement to the Einstein counter-intelligence.  After that it became
> a European (not just German) steamroll of the easily led Amerikans.  [It
> is closely aligned with the Copenhagen interpretation, or coup, of
> quantum mechanics.]  This European fraud (to Amerika and the USSR and
> the rest of the world) successfully allowed Europe to defer public
> discussion of the structure of the electron, proton, neutron, atom and
> nucleus for the balance of the century.
> 
> How's that for epoch-making!
> 
> MT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 07:38:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23960;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3484293E.75D6 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 09:29:02 -0600
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Come on, Lynn: read the literature!
References: <199711261438_MC2-29CB-24CE compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"jg9V-2.0.Gs5.rc2Xq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13412
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex; >INTERNET:kurtz imap2.asu.edu
> 
> Lynn Kurtz writes:
> 
>      I AM?? That's strange, I don't remember having read the literature.
> 
>      Did I say I was a physicist? Did I claim to be an expert in the field?
>      Did I state that I have read and understand all the literature and
>      consider it to be bogus?
> 
>      Or did I politely ask Jed why he takes his position with such certainty?
> 
> It was very polite. But I do not understand why you have not read any papers.

Jed, I would like very much to read some of these papers you describe.
How can I find them? Are they archived somewhere? I try to follow most
of the threads in Vortex, but I don't get to all of them, so excuse me
if I'm asking a common question.

Thanks,

Craig

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 07:57:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA31157;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:53:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:53:06 -0800
From: Puthoff aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:52:23 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971202105223_-2040214203 mrin38>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"nL4uC2.0.Qc7.Wx2Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13413
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/2/97 1:35:45 PM, you wrote:

<<Would anyone
care to comment on Frank Z.'s statement that
"the mass energy of the electron is reflected
back upon itself ...">>

There are a series of articles by R. C. Jennison on this topic.  See, e.g.,
R. C. Jennison, "What is an electron?" Wireless World, p. 42 (June 1979), or,
more mathematically, J. Phys. Phys. A: Math. Gen, vol 10, p. 167, 1977; vol
13, p. 2247, 1980; vol 16, p 3635, 1983.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 08:10:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01136;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:06:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:06:52 -0800
From: Puthoff aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:06:15 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971202110615_179442120 mrin45.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"--XkC2.0.YH.P83Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13414
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/2/97 7:44:12 AM, Jay Olson wrote:

<<This should work for a "particle in a box" too, since the 
classical interpretation would be a particle bouncing back and forth 
between walls, accelerating as it does so.  But the wave function is 
again time independant, and thus even if the particle is charged 
there won't be any radiation (at ground state).  Maybe I have missed 
the point, but if so, could someone maybe help me out with the 
unsatisfactory nature of this explaination?>>

My own ZPE answer to this is that in fact such particles do radiate, but are
compensated by absorption from the ZPE.  That is, all ground states are
defined as systems that are in equilibrium with the ZPE, with acceleration
radiation being compensated by ZPE absorption.  I have a paper in preparation
that covers a number of quantum ground states based on this viewpoint.  It
includes hydrogen atom, harmonic oscillator, particle in a box, etc.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 09:43:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21519;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:34:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:34:50 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: String-Ring Particle Model
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:32:50 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcff48$50058b00$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"hQVRj2.0.xF5.qQ4Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13415
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ring Radius r = hbar*c*alpha/w = k*q^2/w (meters)

w = .5CV^2 particle rest energy  (joules)

alpha = 0.00729729

eo = 8.84E-12 farad/meter or coulomb/joule-meter

uo = 4(pi)E-7 henry or newton/ampere^2

C = 2(pi)r*eo  (coulomb/newton-meter^2)

L = 2(pi)r*uo = 377^2*C  (henry)

V = (w/.5C)^1/2  (volts)

I = (w/.5L)^1/2  (amperes)

Z = (L/C)^1/2 = 377 (ohms)

q = CV = 1.602E-19 (coulombs) the sign +/- is the phase

f = resonant frequency of the particle = 1/[2(pi)*(LC)^1/2]

i = "loop current" q*f (amperes)   Gravitational Effects?

Will it fly?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 12:02:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07885;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:46:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:46:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:45:58 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <971202110615_179442120 mrin45.mail.aol.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <747EBF58B0 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"QFTw-2.0.7x1.fM6Xq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13416
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> In a message dated 12/2/97 7:44:12 AM, Jay Olson wrote:
> 
> <<This should work for a "particle in a box" too, since the 
> classical interpretation would be a particle bouncing back and forth 
> between walls, accelerating as it does so.  But the wave function is 
> again time independant, and thus even if the particle is charged 
> there won't be any radiation (at ground state).  Maybe I have missed 
> the point, but if so, could someone maybe help me out with the 
> unsatisfactory nature of this explaination?>>
> 
> My own ZPE answer to this is that in fact such particles do radiate, but are
> compensated by absorption from the ZPE.  That is, all ground states are
> defined as systems that are in equilibrium with the ZPE, with acceleration
> radiation being compensated by ZPE absorption.  I have a paper in preparation
> that covers a number of quantum ground states based on this viewpoint.  It
> includes hydrogen atom, harmonic oscillator, particle in a box, etc.
> 
> Hal Puthoff

Hi Hal,
Yes, I do like your ZPE model of the hydrogen atom, etc.  However, 
just as food for thought, lets consider the following.  Your ZPE 
model may lead one into thinking too classically.  As I said, in the 
classical view of the particle in a box, we have some particle 
bouncing back and forth between the walls, accelerating.  But the 
problem with this view is not just the acceleration.  The probability 
distribution looks nothing like the classical counterpart, either.  
In fact, the point where one would expect the particle to do the 
accelerating (at the walls of the box) is a point of zero 
probability!  So the particle will never even encounter the 
wall at zero distance.  Simply saying that we can get away with the 
particle radiating doesn't solve this problem.  In addition, how much 
acceleration are we talking about here?  If we have a box that has 
length that is very large, and one guy observes the particle at one 
point in the box, and someone else far away observes the same 
particle a very, very short time later, perhaps we could say that the 
particle traveled faster than light! (getting out on a limb here...) 
So no amount of classical acceleration may allow this to happen.  It 
would seem that the wave function itsself is a part of the structure 
of the particle.  Perhaps we could even say that the observations 
were not the same particle, but the wave function will create a new 
particle for every new point in time and reabsorbe the previous 
particle that was present.  Anyway, this was meant to be food for 
thought, so feel free to grind it into hamburger!  :)

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 12:02:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23352;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:55:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:55:41 -0800
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:55:36 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Help on visualizing QED!
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <74A7E65B47 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"XN_Ev3.0.ii5.wU6Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13417
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts everyone!

I've got a question regarding QED.  One is told to visualise two 
electrons coming together.  As the approach one another, they 
exchange virtual photons and are pushed apart.  This is the electric 
field of the electrons.  My problem is how to visualise a magnetic 
field using this way of thinking.  Does anybody know how to do this?  
Also, how does one visualize attractive force between unlike charges? 
 Thanks,
JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 13:59:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17708;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:47:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:47:33 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:46:55 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971202164654_179505347 mrin44.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: non radiating states
Resent-Message-ID: <"tBsAl3.0.VK4.p78Xq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13418
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

There are a series of articles by R. C. Jennison on this topic.  See, e.g.,
R. C. Jennison, "What is an electron?" Wireless World, p. 42 (June 1979), or,
more mathematically, J. Phys. Phys. A: Math. Gen, vol 10, p. 167, 1977; vol
13, p. 2247, 1980; vol 16, p 3635, 1983.

Hal Puthoff
......................................................

Thank you Hal.  I am of the belief that the nuclear, electromagnetic, and
gravitational  forces are totally different from each other.  They do,
however, share similar formulations.  These formulations revolve around
symmetries.
...........................................................

The electromagnetic symmetry revolves around electricity and magnetism.
The gravitational symmetry revolves around force and gravity.
field = G(dp/dt) / (ccr)
The nuclear symmetry revolves around the strong nuclear force and the nuclear
spin orbit force.
........................................................

The reflection of the wavefuntions energy back into the atom produces a
force.
2E/c.  this force generates the gravitational field of matter.  The matter
and E/M fields induce gravity through the application of a force.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/physrev.txt">The Source of Inertia
l and Grav. Mass</A> 

...................................................
The ranges of the symmetries are effected by electron condensations.
 (superconductors).

The Electric field has a dipole formulation and saturates.  Range shorter.
The magnetic field is spread out by the Meissner effect. Range longer.
The gravitational field has short range components.  The Tampere evvect.
The nuclear spin orbit force extends beyond the nucleus.  The cold fusion
effect.
..............................................................................
.............

That's it in a nut shell.  Of if you don't like it that's it from the shell
of a nut.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 18:38:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17280;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:24:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:24:43 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: String-Ring Particle Model  (corrections)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:19:00 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcff89$6fdba7c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"UMGg21.0.eD4.RBCXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13419
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Seems that the "Devil in The Details" is the Phase Velocity v = c/alpha or v
= 2(pi)r/t sin theta, where theta is the
angle that the energy-wave makes with the boundary of the ring (about 0.4181
degrees).

Ring Radius r = hbar*c*alpha/w = k*q^2/w  (meters)

w = .5CV^2 the particle rest energy (joules)

alpha = 0.00729729

eo = 8.84E-12 farad/meter or coulomb/joule-meter

uo = 4(pi)E-7 henry/meter or newton/ampere^2

C = 2(pi)r*eo  (coulomb/newton-meter^2)

L = 2(pi)r*uo = 377^2*C  (henry)

V = (w/,5C)^1/2  (volts)

I = (w/.5L)^1/2  (amperes)  displacement current

Z = (L/C)^1/2 = 377 (ohms)

q = CV = 1.602E-19 (coulombs) the sign +/- is the phase

f =  [1/(LC)^1/2]* alpha (frequency of wave rotation)

i = q*f*alpha(amps)"loop current" Gravitational Effects?

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 20:18:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06718;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:12:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:12:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:10:48 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971202231047_1005191282 mrin40.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"BqSUY.0.te1.OmDXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13420
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/2/97 8:56:34 PM, Jay Olsen wrote:

<<Your ZPE 
model may lead one into thinking too classically.  As I said, in the 
classical view of the particle in a box, we have some particle 
bouncing back and forth between the walls, accelerating.  But the 
problem with this view is not just the acceleration.  The probability 
distribution looks nothing like the classical counterpart, either.  >>

Similarly, the classical and quantum models yield completely different
distributions for a harmonic oscillator, in just the same way.  Surprisingly,
however, as recently published by my ZPE colleagues Ibison and Haisch in Phys
Rev (I don't have the reference at hand, as I am at home), the ZPE-driven
harmonic oscillator reproduces the QM result with its counterintuitive
distribution, not the classical one.  So we must not assume that a ZPE model
will give classical-looking results.

Hal Puthoff 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 22:28:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12089;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:24:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:24:09 -0800
Message-Id: <3484E504.F58CEE6B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 07:50:12 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Take a look to NASA homepage (www.nasa.gov)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qJ0Uc1.0.py2.8iFXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13421
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From the NASA home headline:

            Ready to Go to Warp Speed?

                       What will it take for humans to be
                       able to travel the vast distances
                       between stars? Faster-than-light
                       drives remain in the province of
                       science fiction, but scientists at
                       NASA's Lewis Research Center
                       are seriously studying what kinds of
                       propulsion will be needed when
                       humans are ready to leave the
                       Solar System. (Full Story)
                       (12/2/97) 

At headlines! Very interesting. What will be the next?

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  2 22:39:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13751;
	Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:37:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:37:58 -0800
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:37:54 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <971202231047_1005191282 mrin40.mail.aol.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <7F5CDF15F5 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"T-a_g2.0.gM3.4vFXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13422
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> In a message dated 12/2/97 8:56:34 PM, Jay Olsen wrote:
> 
> <<Your ZPE 
> model may lead one into thinking too classically.  As I said, in the 
> classical view of the particle in a box, we have some particle 
> bouncing back and forth between the walls, accelerating.  But the 
> problem with this view is not just the acceleration.  The probability 
> distribution looks nothing like the classical counterpart, either.  >>
> 
> Similarly, the classical and quantum models yield completely different
> distributions for a harmonic oscillator, in just the same way.  Surprisingly,
> however, as recently published by my ZPE colleagues Ibison and Haisch in Phys
> Rev (I don't have the reference at hand, as I am at home), the ZPE-driven
> harmonic oscillator reproduces the QM result with its counterintuitive
> distribution, not the classical one.  So we must not assume that a ZPE model
> will give classical-looking results.
> 
> Hal Puthoff 

This is quite interesting.  If the particle is simply undergoing 
acceleration due to the ZPE, how is the particle able to pass through 
a point of zero probability in an excited state without actually 
occupying that point?

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 03:24:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14356;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:20:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:20:13 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Lines-Tubes of Force and Tapping ZPE
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 04:18:06 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcffdd$211c7660$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"_mMB83.0.BW3.h1KXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13423
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The concept of lines and tubes of force introduced in the 18th and 19th
century seems to square with the more recently introduced String Theory.
String theory treats potentials and forces in the vacuum as lines that have
no dimensions other than length. Thus you can get a lot of them in a a given
area.  :-)

The permittivity (capacitance)of space, 8.84E-12 farad/meter or
coulomb/nt-meter^2 needs only length and potential V (a non-physical
property?)to arrive at energy
w = .5CV^2 or .5q^2/C.

So, all you need to do to tap into the ZPE is draw some one-dimensional
lines on a sheet of paper and hook them to
a lightbulb or a motor!   :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 05:34:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27765;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 05:30:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 05:30:23 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Vacuum Capacitance and Casimir Force
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:27:35 -0700
Message-ID: <01bcffef$37d1e360$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"lKz5R1.0.jn6.jxLXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13424
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In the Casimir experiment where two (metal?) plates are forced together by
ZPE,one wonders if this is not a vacuum capacitance-potential problem.

The vacuum capacitance of two plates of 1.0E-4 m^2 area at some initial
potential V separated by a distance d;
C = 8.84E-16/d.

Since energy w = .5 CV^2 as the plates are "pushed" together (by the vacuum
energy) the capacitance C must increase while the potential V must decrease
to maintain the initial energy w constant. Thus if there was 1.414
(2^1/2) volts potential on the plates separated 8.84E-6 meters initially, w
would be 1.0E-10 joules.

Then as the plates move together to a separation of 1.0E-6
meters the capacitance would increase to 8.84E-10 farads and now w =
8.84E-10 joules if the potential remained at
(2)^1/2 volts, a gain in energy of 8.84E-10 joules from the ZPE force?

If the plates were "shorted" initially would a vacuum-induced potential
appear on them if there was a thin insulating layer between them?

On the other hand for the vacuum, w = .5CV^2 since
C = 8.84E-12 farads/meter, as the distance decreases the capacitance
decreases and V must increase to increase the "stored" energy like for
instance in particles, the smaller the particle the more energy contained w
= .5*q^2/C
= q^2/4(pi)eo*d where eo*d = C.  :-)


Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 06:23:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02004;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:18:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:18:15 -0800
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971203081757.ZM11220 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:17:57 -0600
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"N_tpS2.0.EV.ceMXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13425
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Morning Edition for Wednesday, December 03, 1997
InfoBeat <news infobeat.com>

*** Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood

Astronomers said Tuesday they had captured the image of an exploding
black hole in Earth's Milky Way galaxy. They used radio telescopes
across Britain to capture the explosion predicted by Einstein's
theories. The scientists, at Britain's Nuffield Radio Astronomy
Laboratory, said the black hole is at the center of a "micro-quasar"
called GRS1915 in the constellation of Aquila the Eagle. It is only
about 40,000 light-years away. The international team used MERLIN
(the Multi Element Radio Linked Interferometer Network), made up of 6
radio telescopes spread out across England. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6261377-bcc

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 07:06:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09330;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:02:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:02:42 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:02:07 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971203100207_1644576285 mrin58.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Kennel Lecture?
Resent-Message-ID: <"vrq4n.0.hH2.GINXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13426
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Did anyone on Vortex-L attend Elliot Kennel's lecture at Wright State
University, scheduled for November 21, 1997?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 07:07:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11766;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:03:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:03:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:02:03 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971203100202_882852636 mrin52.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"dk61_2.0.lt2.1JNXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13427
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a post of Dec. 1, Horace Heffner wrote that he had interpreted my first
post in this thread as "a direct frontal attack on ZPE."  He ended his post
by saying, "Now I get it though. You are merely asking Hal Puthoff or Martin
Sevior or Michael Schaffer if they can extend Haus' theory to account for no
lost energy of orbital electrons, and thus negate Puthoff's theories.  8^)"

It sounds as if my first post in this thread inadvertently stepped on
Horace's toes.  I don't think that ZPE is necessary to explain the
nonradiation of the standard model orbiting electron, but I didn't mean to
start another argument about ZPE, and I'm sorry I mentioned it.

Ever since reading Haus' article some years ago, I've wondered whether his
condition for nonradiation applied to the standard model orbiting electron.
 Perhaps another way to ask the question would be, "Does the standard model
orbiting electron lack Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at
the speed of light?"  

(By the way, it was interesting to find that Randell Mills, Mitchell Swartz,
and Michael Schaffer all took at least one course from the same professor:
 H. A. Haus of MIT.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 07:34:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14996;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:29:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:29:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:27:42 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971203102741_1283293714 mrin51.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"bMaNW3.0.8g3.1hNXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13428
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/3/97 7:31:10 AM, I wrote:

<<Similarly, the classical and quantum models yield completely different
distributions for a harmonic oscillator, in just the same way.  Surprisingly,
however, as recently published by my ZPE colleagues Ibison and Haisch in Phys
Rev (I don't have the reference at hand, as I am at home), the ZPE-driven
harmonic oscillator reproduces the QM result with its counterintuitive
distribution, not the classical one.  So we must not assume that a ZPE model
will give classical-looking results.>>

The reference is M. Ibison and B. Haisch, "Quantum and classical statistics
of the electromagnetic zero-point field," Phys. Rev. A, vol 54, p. 2737, Oct.
1996.

Hal Puthoff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 07:44:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16358;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:40:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:40:01 -0800
From: Puthoff aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:39:23 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971203103923_1183516566 mrin47>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
Resent-Message-ID: <"eBbEP.0.K_3.FrNXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13429
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/3/97 9:21:26 AM, Jay Olson wrote:

<<This is quite interesting.  If the particle is simply undergoing 
acceleration due to the ZPE, how is the particle able to pass through 
a point of zero probability in an excited state without actually 
occupying that point?>>

I'll have to think about what that means physically.  Meanwhile, check out
Ibison's paper, noted in another post, in which the probability distribution
generated by a ZPE analysis exactly matches that generated by standard
Schrodinger equation analysis.

Hal Puthoff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 09:16:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05181;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:12:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:12:13 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: Taos Hum?  Sounds Good?
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:10:28 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd000e$5ac5da60$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"tDL3g1.0.nG1.hBPXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13430
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


                            December 2, 1997
                            Web posted at: 9:52 p.m. EST (0252 GMT) 

                            From Correspondent Jim Hill

                            SAN DIEGO (CNN) -- A researcher says   he
has done something "completely  impossible" by harnessing the power of
sound, and that eventually it will be
                            available in everything from home 
appliances to industrial compressors.   Tim Lucas says he made a radical
discovery while working at the Los Alamos
National Laboratory in New Mexico that enables him to create more
energy through sound waves than was ever thought possible. 

"It's not an incremental improvement in an existing technology," Lucas
says, "it's
  suddenly doing something which before was completely impossible." 

                            Scientists have long known that sound is 
composed of pulsing waves of energy, but  it was considered useless as a
power source  because at high levels sound waves distort  into shock
waves. 

                            An example is the way sound distorts on a
stereo or radio speakers when turned up too loud.But Lucas discovered
that by sending sound waves through empty containers of  various shapes,
the shock waves were eliminated. 

                            Clean electric power generators?"Once you've
done that," he says, "you can add all the energy, create all the
pressure, and deliver all the power that you want."    Lucas calls his
invention Resonant Macrosonic Synthesis -- RMS. 

                            He has used it to power such things as a gas
compressor, but believes there is so much potential that he compares
what he has done with sound to what the laser has done with light.  His
company, Macrosonix, is working on sound wave compressors which might 
one day do everything from cool refrigerators and air conditioners in
the home to  running compressors in factories and on construction
sites.     The beauty of a sound-wave compressor is that it would do
what a compressor does, but without the moving parts required in
conventional piston technology. 

                            Mechanical engineering professor Mark
Hamilton, who has followed Lucas' work, says, "I don't think the idea
struck people that you could use sound waves to do,
say, pumping that could be used on a commercial scale. And I think that
was the   innovative part of the idea here." 
     Macrosonix researchers say they also hope to use sound to create
clean electric  power generators, replacing any number of machines with
the technology of an  empty cavity. 

                     

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 09:17:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05244;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:12:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:12:22 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971203111212.00770188 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:12:12 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: purifier
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fy8X-3.0.kH1.pBPXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13431
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts,

A new report entitled, "Calorimetric Measurement of Pd/Ag Alloy Permeated
by a Steady Hydrogen Flux" has been placed on our web site.  A link for it
is located on the EarthTech Calorimetry sub-page or you can go directly to
the report at

http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html

We performed this experiment just to see if there was any readily
noticeable excess heat generated by the normal operation of a hydrogen
purifier (Pd/Ag membrane being permeated by hydrogen).

The results were negative.  We estimate the excess heat detection limit and
calculate that each H atom passing thru the purifier produced less than
0.017 eV of anomalous energy.

Comments and suggestions for improvements to this experiment are most welcome.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 10:44:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15191;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:33:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:33:03 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971203123201.ZM13357 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:32:01 -0600
In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
        "Fw: Taos Hum?  Sounds Good?" (Dec  3, 11:21am)
References: <01bd000e$5ac5da60$LocalHost default>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Taos Hum?  Sounds Good?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"wdNLV1.0.Dj3.TNQXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13432
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Dec 3, 11:21am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

> He has used it to power such things as a gas
> compressor, but believes there is so much potential that he compares
> what he has done with sound to what the laser has done with light.  His
> company, Macrosonix, is working on sound wave compressors which might
> one day do everything from cool refrigerators and air conditioners in
> the home to  running compressors in factories and on construction
> sites.     The beauty of a sound-wave compressor is that it would do
> what a compressor does, but without the moving parts required in
> conventional piston technology.

Hmmm.  Acoustic compressors exist already.  A new design perhaps?  I will try
and post tomorrow the information I have on hand of at least one promising
configuration, (that is if anyone is interested).  Thanks again to Remi for
passing it along to me (still lurking?).



-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 11:28:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09718;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:18:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:18:08 -0800
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <3485B065.674 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:17:57 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nonradiation of Orbiting Electrons
References: <971203100202_882852636 mrin52.mail.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XvO8J2.0.mN2.l1RXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13433
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tstolper aol.com wrote:
> 

> Ever since reading Haus' article some years ago, 
> I've wondered whether his
> condition for nonradiation applied to the 
> standard model orbiting electron.
> Perhaps another way to ask the question would be, "Does the 
> standard model orbiting electron lack Fourier 
> components synchronous with waves traveling at
> the speed of light?"
> 

The answer is a simple: no. His condition is just a different
way of expressing maxwell's equations---in fact, it is simply
what one observes when one takes the fourier transform
of the maxwell equation for E-J. It contains no
new predictions beyond maxwell. So, if Maxwell says it
radiates, so does Haus's condition.

I.e., if an electron is a point charge in circular motion,
yes it would radiate by Haus's criteria = Maxwell's criteria. 
If you hypothesis an electron is some other charge distribution, 
like a spherical shell (a la Mills), then no it would not radiate,
and again we don't need Haus to see why.

Haus's criteria is a clever observation, but you will be
hard pressed to find a situation where it predicts no radiation
and where it is not obvious by the usual constant vel + symmetry
conditions for no rad.



-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 12:45:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06584;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:31:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:31:21 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971203140019.ZM14543 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:00:19 -0600
In-Reply-To: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
        "Re: Fw: Taos Hum?  Sounds Good?" (Dec  3, 12:51pm)
References: <01bd000e$5ac5da60$LocalHost default> 
	<971203123201.ZM13357 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Taos Hum?  Sounds Good?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"d9l-J1.0.kc1.K6SXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13434
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> On Dec 3, 11:21am, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
> > He has used it to power such things as a gas
> > compressor, but believes there is so much potential that he compares
> > what he has done with sound to what the laser has done with light.  His
> > company, Macrosonix...........

No company I can find going by that name.  No hits on obvious keywords.  No
corroborating info or press releases at Los Alamos either.  Must have been a
slow day at CNN to report on this vaporware.  8^)

Thanks anyway for sharing the news.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 14:38:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08924;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:26:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:26:57 -0800
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:22:56 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Where to find CF papers
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712031725_MC2-2A95-4BD3 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Unra3.0.JB2.loTXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13435
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:ccHaynie ix.netcom.com

Craig Haynie asked where to find papers on cold fusion. Well . . . <ahem> we
sell them. That is, Gene and I publish Infinite Energy magazine, which is
chock full of 'em. See the homepage:

www.infinite-energy.com

You can find journals like Fusion Technology at a university library. Our home
page has a link to Claytor's cold fusion paper on the Internet. That's the
only major CF paper I know of on Internet. I wish there were a hundred others.
(Really, I do, even though I myself publish them for money. I would like to
see more competition -- it would only help us sell subscriptions.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 14:41:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10112;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:30:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:30:16 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:30:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <34640e1b.439627 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620 spectre.mitre.org>
 <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620 spectre.mitre.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8OWw-.0.aT2.srTXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13436
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:08 PM 11/8/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Could you give me an abbreviated explanation of "stripping"?
 
   Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and
neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound.  In fact, if you flip the spin
of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart.

   Now throw a beam of deuterons at an appropriate target, well below the
center of mass energy needed to split the deuterons.  You will get a high
incidence of cases where the proton is absorbed by the target while the
neutron sails merrily on its way.  The path taken in most of these events
is that the deuteron spontaneously (and virtually) decomposes, then the
proton is absorbed by the target, releasing enough energy to more than
bring the Heisenberg books into balance.

For typical targets, the net energy released by the process is around ten
MeV.  (As I remember it, aluminium is an excellent target.  Beryllium is
better, but only because it contributes further neutrons, and Lithium is
the best:
  Li7 + p --> 2 He4 + energy.)  Significant neutrons from stripping have
been seen with average plasma temperatures in the 1 eV range, but the
actual particles involved are "runaways" in the 10+ keV range.

   Once upon a time a lot of effort went into looking for stripping
reactions that produced net energy.  (Bombard a thin target with deuterons,
and dump the neutron beam into depleted U3O8.  In addition to the 10+ MeV
from the stripping, you get about 200 MeV of energy from each fast neutron
that reacts with the U238.)  The consensus was that the cost of the
deuterium rendered it impractical as a (earthbound) power generation
source, but very practical for use in spacecraft. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 16:30:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11057;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:25:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:25:18 -0800
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <3485F863.5843 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:25:07 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Help Phillip at the DOE
References: <c03a169a.3485e767 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"DtQ_Q3.0.di2.iXVXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13437
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Meet Dr Barry Merryman UCLA fusion program.   Barry said "I am a quack!"  and
> then he went on to do the same sort of  ZP transmutation experiments that I
> do.  (figure that one out)  I hear Barry has now found something.

No, I said you were a "harmless crank". Cranki-ness is judged 
not by what one thinks about, but by the way one thinks about
it. Somehow, you have apparently come to "believe" a number
of theories for which there is no evident basis. That is a pretty
good sign of cranki-ness. Of course, that is not incompatible
with you being a good engineer, and evidently your engineering
skills have superceded your belief system in your tests on
the Potapov device, since you have found nothing like
pretty much everyone else. This illustrates how adherence to 
the scientific/empirical method can save us from our own biases.

In any case, it is not malicious when I refer to someone as 
a crank...its just short for saying they believe and espouse
a lot of unverified/contradicted "techno" things. There are many such
people in the world.....

As for me "finding something": don't get your hopes up....

-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 17:38:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23032;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:20:44 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971203201437.006ab610 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 20:14:37 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Where to find CF papers
In-Reply-To: <199712031725_MC2-2A95-4BD3 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JqoFS2.0.bd5.gLWXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13438
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:22 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Jed wrote:


>Craig Haynie asked where to find papers on cold fusion. 


  

  The <bold>COLD FUSION TIMES

</bold>[THE OLDEST COLD FUSION JOURNAL DEVOTED SOLELY TO THE

LOADING OF ISOTOPIC FUELS INTO GROUP VIII METALS]


    http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html


reports world-wide results of cold fusion.


Also several connections to the literature are

present at the above url, and more coming shortly.


  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec  3 21:55:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21895;
	Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:51:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:51:32 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:49:05 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971204004905_-287570427 mrin46.mail.aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com,
        Puthoff aol.com, RVargo1062@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro,
        noever webtv.net, jayneg@grove.iup.edu, denislee@nji.com,
        rseese gpu.com
Subject: got new movie..I'm genius...perhaps dufas..
Resent-Message-ID: <"sN3rW.0._L5.YJaXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13439
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I like to sell movies and books.  Getting top billing now.

 <A HREF="http://www.4link.net/~pluto/alternat.html">pluto films</A> 

Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 01:49:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03944;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:40:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:40:31 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Energy From The Vacuum?
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:35:35 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0097$fa524800$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"bHSDs1.0.Yz.DgdXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13440
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The standard approach for calculating the energy w contained in a particle
is w = 0.5 q^2/2(pi)r*eo (joules).
Where eo is the capacitance of space 8.84E-12 farads/meter
or coulombs/joule-meter.

The is merely a statement that w = .5 q^2/C
where C = eo*A/s where A = area and s = the separation of
the "boundary surfaces". Simply stated, as the "size of space" goes to zero
the energy w approaches infinity.  :-)

For two capacitor "plates" separated a distance s, the Force F required to
separate them;
F = dw/ds = .5V^2*deo*A/ds or .5q^2/deo*A*ds.

One might infer from this, that about anything that "squeezes" the vacuum
can extract ZPE from it or create particles?    :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 03:45:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05045;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:41:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 03:41:28 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: 4th and 5th Dimensions and Particles, Made Easy.
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:39:24 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd00a9$45132ec0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"uitxN.0.lE1.dRfXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13441
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since the energy w of a particle is w = 0.5q^2/2(pi)r*eo where eo is the
capacitance of space 8.84E-12 coulombs/joule-meter, then w = 0.5q^2/C. Note
that 2(pi)r
is a one-dimensional "line" and the shorter the line (the smaller the radius
of this string circle) the higher the particle energy.

The conclusion is that all particles must be
one-dimensional energy-lines in space,consistent with String-Superstring
Theory.

The String Theory holds that a 4th (or 5th) dimension "folding" of
space-time etc.., according to Einstein-Minkowski Geometry gives this
result.

Who am I to argue.

Lynn Kurtz, can you give us a primer on this so we can fold up space and tap
into that "bankroll" of 10^93 joule/cm^3 of "free energy", or do we go
Solar?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 05:56:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26476;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:50:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:50:48 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0ac64c1df0c [199.237.131.247]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 04:52:44 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:Speculations on Orbital Stressing Mechanisms
Resent-Message-ID: <"MO7Lz3.0.XT6.sKhXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13442
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:48 PM 12/1/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>Remember this thread,Horace. Mind wandering?  :-)

Very much distracted by experiments.

>
>In the water molecule the bond distance of the two hydrogens to the oxygen
>is 1.0E-10 meters (one angstrom).
>
>If a water molecule is against a negatively charged electrode such as the
>cathode in the electrolysis cells or even a dry metal, the distance from a
>free electron of the metal to the nucleus is also one angstrom. Thus since
>the potential V = kq/r there would be a potential on the order
>of 14.4 volts and a field of 1.44E11 volts/meter as opposed to the potential
>of 27.2 volts at 0.53 angstroms for the
>orbiting hydrogen atom with a field of 2.72E11 volts/meter.
>
>I would think (recklessly)that surface conditions that could in effect
>double q, would "stress" the orbit even more.
>
>Regards,     Frederick

Yes, there are many molecular and surface structure considerations.  I'm
going to probably have minimum involvement with vortex for a bit while I do
some experimenting. Way behind on reading vortex etc. too.  It's an
exciting time, though.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 08:53:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03416;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:44:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:44:37 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34876159.4591 bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:05:13 -0800
From: "Terry J. Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Boron Fusion Reactor?
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D4F40E135D"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Iyhk7.0.Fr.mtjXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13443
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------6D4F40E135D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The attached article was found on one of my "fringe" mailing lists.  I
thought it might be of interest to some vorts.

Terry

--------------6D4F40E135D
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="21"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="21"
Content-Base: "http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicl
	e/article.cgi?file=MN36679.DTL&dire
	ctory=/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21"

<BASE HREF="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=MN36679.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21">

<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Physicists Announce Creation of Low-Cost Fusion Reactor / Energy alternative to fossil fuels </TITLE></HEAD><BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#000000" LINK="#0000FF" VLINK="#000084">

<P><TABLE WIDTH=100% BORDER=0 CELLPADDING=0 CELLSPACING=0>
 <TR ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=MIDDLE>

  <TD COLSPAN=6 ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=MIDDLE>
  <IMG SRC="/chronicle/gfx/bluelogo.gif" WIDTH=318 HEIGHT=50 BORDER=0 
   ALT="The San Francisco Chronicle">
  </TD>

 </TR>
 <TR ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=MIDDLE>


<TD>
  <FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?News:MN:/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21">News</A></FONT>
  </TD>

  <TD>
  <FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?Business:BU:/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21">Business</A></FONT>
  </TD>

  <TD>
  <FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?Editorials:ED:/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21">Commentary</A></FONT>
  </TD>

  <TD>        
<FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/sports/">Sports</A></FONT>
  </TD>

  <TD>
  <FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/cgi-bin/chronicle/article-list.cgi?Datebook:DD:/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21">Daily Datebook</A></FONT>
  </TD>

  <TD>
  <FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/">The Gate</A></FONT>
   </TD>

 </TR>
</TABLE></P>
<HR NOSHADE>
<TABLE WIDTH=100% BORDER=0><TR><TD>
<FONT SIZE=-1>
Friday,
November 21, 1997
&#183;
Page A26
</FONT>
  </TD>
  
  <TD ALIGN=RIGHT>
<FONT SIZE=-1>
<A HREF="/cgi-bin/chronicle/list-sections.cgi">
&copy;1997 San Francisco Chronicle</A>
</FONT>
  </TD>
 </TR>
</TABLE>

<HR NOSHADE>

<P ALIGN=CENTER>
<!-- AD IMAGE/LINK BEGINS HERE *******************************************-->
<A HREF="/cgi-bin/cntAds.cgi?from=pos20&to=http://sfgate.software.net/PKIN289107/prod.htm&gif=mail468.gif">
<IMG SRC="/place-ads/cgi-bin/pos20/mail468.gif" BORDER=0 WIDTH=468 HEIGHT=60
 ALT="Lotus Mail available now at The Gate Software Store!" VSPACE=1></A>
<!-- AD IMAGE/LINK ENDS HERE ********************************************* -->
</P>


        <H2>Physicists Announce Creation of Low-Cost Fusion Reactor<br>Energy alternative to fossil fuels </H2>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
        <I>Charles Petit, Chronicle Science Writer</I><P>
        <P><B></B></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><!--/chronicle/pictures/1997/11/21_t/fusion-reactor_t.gif-->
<A HREF="/cgi-bin/sfgate/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/1997/11/21/fusion-reactor.gif&paper=chronicle&file=MN36679.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/11/21"><IMG BORDER=0 SRC="/chronicle/pictures/1997/11/21_t/fusion-reactor_t.gif"></A>
</P><P>   Physicists in California and Florida say they have designed a 
compact, boron-fueled fusion reactor that would make low-cost 
electricity with no radiation hazards and may be much easier to build 
than the monster machines now favored by major federal programs.	 
</P><P> If it, or other new ideas for fusion reactors, do work, they would 
have immense impact on the world's economy, and on worries over 
greenhouse warming of the climate from the burning of fossil fuels.	 
</P><P> Units of the new design would be small enough to be built 
anywhere. A drawing of a proposed prototype shows a machine about 
four times the size of a city bus. It would generate 50 megawatts of 
power -- enough for a town of about 50,000 people.	 
</P><P> The drawing shows a man in a sailor's uniform for scale because it 
could fit in a submarine, and because the Office of Naval Research 
has provided some of the money used to design it.	 
</P><P>  ``It is not mainly for military use; it is for a benign source of 
power for humanity,'' said physicist Hendrik Monkhorst of the 
University of Florida, one of its designers. Such machines would emit 
no carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases that are the topic of a 
United Nations-sponsored international conference on climate change 
in Kyoto, Japan, next month..	 
</P><P> Fuel to power the reactor would be trivially cheap. It would 
consume about three ounces of boron a day, which would cost a few 
dollars.	 
</P><P> The new design, called a colliding beam fusion reactor, has been 
discussed in small scientific meetings for several years. But today 
it is getting a big boost with the publication of its basic features 
in Science magazine, the nation's leading research journal.	 
</P><P> Frustrated by the lack of interest from the U.S. Department of 
Energy, the inventors are going to private investors for the $12 
million they want to test their idea.	 
</P><P> The main man behind it is Norman Rostoker, 73, professor emeritus 
of physics at the University of California at Irvine, who has studied 
fusion physics for both industry and government labs since 1958. ``I 
think it will take about three years to prove the concept, and if it 
works, we could make a working reactor five years after that,'' he 
said yesterday. He guesses that the first working reactor would cost 
around $100 million. 	 
</P><P> ``It is a very good concept,'' said Nobel laureate Glenn T. 
Seaborg, a Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory chemist and former 
chief of the Atomic Energy Commission. ``The thing about the 
colliding beam approach is that they can be built in small size, and 
it has a chance of being economic.''	 
</P><P>  ``The real issue is whether they can get enough reactions (among 
fuel particles) in this thing,'' said William Barletta, head of the 
fusion research program at the Berkeley laboratory. ``It's a big 
stretch. But when you ask how much money it will take to assess these 
things, the answer is almost nothing. Yet the present fusion program 
does not seem interested.''	 
</P><P> The taming of fusion, a form of nuclear power in which atoms are 
fused together to form new atoms and release energy, has eluded 
scientists for nearly 50 years. The best examples of its immense 
potential are the sun and stars, and hydrogen bombs. But controlling 
the reaction -- which requires temperatures of more than 100 million 
degrees -- for practical use turns out to be much harder then 
formerly hoped. 	 
</P><P> Fusion programs worldwide have seen budgets shrink steadily in 
recent years. Skeptics have said it is ``the energy of the future, 
and always will be,'' because boosters have said from the start that 
they need just another 20 years or so.	 
</P><P> The primary project, backed by the Department of Energy's 
$227 million fusion budget, focuses on designs for doughnut-shaped 
machines called tokamaks. In them, magnetic fields would trap hot 
plasmas of fusion fuel. But the machines must be very large. A 
100-foot-high test tokamak reactor that would cost $10 billion is 
being designed by an international government consortium. And a 
working tokamak and its surrounding plumbing and other structures 
would probably have to be as big as the Rose Bowl. ``Nobody will ever 
want power plants like that,'' Rostoker said.	 
</P><P> A second concept under current development, inertial confinement, 
would ignite hydrogen fuel pellets by crushing them in converging 
beams of lasers or atomic particles. Machines to test that idea, 
built mainly for nuclear weapons research, are also likely to be 
large and costly, but some scientists say they, too, could be much 
smaller than tokamaks.	 
</P><P>  Unlike present fusion designs, which seek to combine hydrogen 
isotopes -- deuterium and tritium -- to make helium, the new 
colliding beam machine concept seeks to combine protons with boron. 	 
</P><P> The only product of such a reaction would be alpha particles -- 
another name for the nuclei of helium atoms. It would not produce the 
torrents of neutrons that emerge from standard fusion reactions, and 
which trigger radioactivity in surrounding machinery.	 
</P><P> The reactor chambers themselves would be about 30 feet long and 6 
feet high. Electric coils around them would generate magnetic fields 
to hold fiery, glowing plasmas of protons and boron ions combining to 
form helium ions. 	 
</P><P> And the electrically charged helium atoms would spiral out the 
ends of the reactors into generators called inverse cyclotrons. These 
would operate like the atom smashers invented in the 1930s by 
Berkeley physicist Ernest Lawrence, but backwards. Instead of using 
electricity to speed up atomic particles, these use high-speed 
particles to generate electricity.	 
<hr>
</P><P>
 
<h3>NEW FUSION IDEA	</h3>
</P><P> A new concept for a compact fusion reactor would produce no 
radioactivity, and it would use boron and protons as fuel instead 
of hydrogen used by most designs. 	 
</P><P>1. Fuel Injection	 
</P><P> Accelerators shoot beams of protons and boron nuclei into the 
chamber, where, at more than 100 million degrees, they form a plasma. 
Electric coils around the reactor generate magnetic forces to help 
confine the fuel. The motions of the charged particles in the superhot 
plasma contribute further to the magnetic bottle effect.	 
</P><P>2. Fusion Reaction	 
</P><P> Moving at different velocities, protons and boron 
(with five protons and six neutrons each) hit each other hard 
enough to fuse together. Each reaction makes three new, high-speed 
helium nuclei, or alpha particles, of two protons and two neutrons 
apiece.	 
</P><P>3. Making Electricity	 
</P><P> The alpha particles, each with a positive electric charge, 
stream from the ends of the reaction chamber. There, generators 
called inverse cyclotrons slow them down by transforming their 
energy into electric power. Additional energy may be captured 
by using heat from the plasma to run steam turbine generators. 
The designers believe the reactor would produce more than four 
times as much energy as it takes to operate the fuel- injection 
accelerators. 	 
</P><P></P><P> Source: Science Magazine	 
</P><P> John Blanchard / The Chronicle	 

</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

<HR>

<P><TABLE WIDTH="100%" BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR ALIGN="center" VALIGN="middle">
<TD><A HREF="/search"><B>Searches</B></A></TD>
<TD><A HREF="/news"><B>The Gate News Page</B></A></TD>
<TD><A HREF="/sports"><B>The Gate Sports Page</B></A></TD>
<TD><A HREF="/select.feedback.html"><B>Feedback</B></A></TD>
<TD><A HREF="/"><B>The Gate</B></A></TD>
</TR>
</TABLE></P>

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT SIZE=-1><A HREF="/chronicle/info/copyright">&#169 &#32; The Chronicle Publishing Company</A>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY>
</HTML>





--------------6D4F40E135D--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 09:31:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16086;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:25:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:25:30 -0800
Message-Id: <199712041725.MAA12404 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Garbled Sono Story
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 12:34:18 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"7Yp4O.0.6x3.8UkXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13444
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians:

I just heard from a friend about something he saw yesterday on CNN. It 
sounds very bizarre and he may have gotten the facts completely screwed 
up so perhaps one of you who may have seen it can clarify.  But this is 
the essence of what was in the story:

A scientist from JPL (or maybe Livermore) has found a way to make 
electricity from sound waves in a small device. He has formed a company 
in California called "MacroSound" 

The fellow's name is Jim (or Tim) Lucas. He was shown with the small 
device with wires coming out of it to power a refrigerator -- a standard 
5+foot tall American unit. The refrigerator was not plugged into wall 
current.

 Obviously it makes no sense to be transforming sound energy into 
anything and then to electricity if there is no overunity effect. No O/U 
was discussed on the program.  On the other hand, perhaps this journalist 
friend got the whole story wrong and it's a much more mundane claim.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 10:06:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23953;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:02:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:02:29 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled Sono Story
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:01:04 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd00de$96a86540$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"hYNEk.0.9s5.p0lXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13445
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Mallove <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: VORTEX <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 10:29 AM
Subject: Garbled Sono Story


>Vortexians:
>
>I just heard from a friend about something he saw yesterday on CNN. It 
>sounds very bizarre and he may have gotten the facts completely screwed 
>up so perhaps one of you who may have seen it can clarify.  But this is 
>the essence of what was in the story:
>
>A scientist from JPL (or maybe Livermore)

Yesterday he was from Los Alamos.  :-)

 has found a way to make 
>electricity from sound waves in a small device. He has formed a company 
>in California called "MacroSound" 
>
>The fellow's name is Jim (or Tim) Lucas. He was shown with the small 
>device with wires coming out of it to power a refrigerator -- a standard 
>5+foot tall American unit. The refrigerator was not plugged into wall 
>current.
>
> Obviously it makes no sense to be transforming sound energy into 
>anything and then to electricity if there is no overunity effect. No O/U 
>was discussed on the program.  On the other hand, perhaps this journalist 
>friend got the whole story wrong and it's a much more mundane claim.
>
>Gene Mallove
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 10:31:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30130;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:26:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:26:36 -0800
Message-ID: <3486E814.5BB1 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:27:48 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Colliding beam fusion reactor
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HH2r82.0.eM7.QNlXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13446
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 3, 1997

The Basic Idea: 

     The Colliding Beam Fusion Reactor (CBFR) is a magnetic confinement
system that avoids anomalous transport that is typical of present plasma
fusion reactor designs (anomalous transport generally refers to
processes in which loss of particles or energy takes place - due to
instabilities or turbulence). The reactor is compact with good
accessibility and low maintenance costs. Confinement is based on a
(Magnetic) Field Reversed Configuration (FRC), wherein the direction of
the externally applied magnetic field is reversed on-axis, by plasma
currents. This topology facilitates the use of advanced fuels, that is
fuels that do not produce neutrons in their primary reactions.  In the
present case the fuel would be a mixture of Hydrogen + Boron-11, that
would react to produce radiant heat and multiply-charged helium nucleii,
for which on-site radioactivity is virtually non-existent and direct
conversion of the energy is feasible and efficient. 

     The CBFR represents the culmination of many years of work by plasma
scientists, in addition to investments by various sponsors, including
the Office of Naval Research. Our proposed strategy for the CBFR is to
design, develop, prototype and pilot test the system in two phases as a
collaboration of researchers from the University of California, Irvine
(UCI), the University of Florida, Gainesville (UFL), and the National
High Magnetic Field Laboratory, Tallahassee Florida (NHMFL). A  patent
application has been filed on the CBFR and the commercial rights to this
technology are presently available. 

Main Advantages of the CBFR: 

     Linear geometry with a singly connected plasma. 
     Simple magnetic configuration that uses solenoidal magnetic
coils,      like a mirror. 
     Closed magnetic field region for confinement of the fuel. 
     Natural divertor outside the separatrix: 
          Allows for extraction of charged fusion products. 
          Prevents formation of scrape-off-layer. 
          Minimizes heat conduction due to a vacuum layer outside of
the           separatrix. 
     Possibility of direct energy converters at the ends. 
     High "Beta" configuration: 
          Allows use of advanced fuel. 
          High power density. 
          Better fuel burnup due to existence of magnetic field
null:             non-adiabatic ions are available over a wide range of
energies           that pass through the null field surface
          periodically (even if they have quite different mass
or           charge) and thereby increase the
          fusion probability. 
     Majority of high energy particles: better stability and slower     
transport over the entire spectrum
     of turbulence. 

The Research Team: 
     At UCI: 
          Prof. Emeritus Norman Rostoker, Lead Investigator 
          Theoretical analysis, coordination of the UCI research effort. 

          Prof. William Heidbrink 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. Vitaly Bystritskii, Research Physicist 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. Eusebio Garate, Research Physicist 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. Hafiz-ur Rahman, Research Physicist 
          Theoretical research and computation 

          Dr. Frank J. Wessel, Research Physicist 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. Yuanxu Song, Assistant Research Physicist 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. Michl Binderbauer, Post-Doctoral Researcher 
          Theoretical analysis and computation 

     At UFL:
          Prof. Hendrik J. Monkhorst, Lead Investigator 
          Theoretical analysis, coordination of the UFL research effort. 

          Prof. Dwight Adams 
          Experimental research 

          Prof. Russell Bowers 
          Experimental research 

          Prof. David Reize 
          Experimental research 

          Dr. R. L. Coldwell, Associate Scientist of Physics 
          Theoretical research and computation 

     At NHMFL:
          Dr. Hans Schneider-Muntau 
          Professor and Deputy Director, NHMFL
 
Additional literature is available below and elsewhere on this homepage. 

This is only a select list of publications. If you desire further
details, please feel free to contact the addresses listed below. 

All articles are available as compressed post-script files in the
standard PC zip-format as well as in gnu-zip format. Be aware that some
files are rather large. 

     Magnetic Fusion with High Energy Self-Colliding Ion Beams 
     N. Rostoker, F.J. Wessel, H.U. Rahman, B.C. Maglich and B. Spivey,
Phys. Rev. Lett., 70, 1818 (1993). 
     download copy: cbfr-prl.zip (ZIP format), cbfr-prl.gz (GNU ZIP
format) 

     Colliding Beam Fusion Reactor 
     N. Rostoker, M.W. Binderbauer and H.J. Monkhorst, SCIENCE,(1997). 
     download copy: cbfr-sci.zip (ZIP format), cbfr-sci.gz (GNU ZIP
format) 

     Self Colliding Beams as an Alternative Fusion System for D-3He
Reactors  N. Rostoker and M. Binderbauer, Proc.: Eval. of Current Trends
in Fusion Research, Wash. D.C., E. Panarella Ed., Plenum Press, New
York/London, p. 33 (1997). 
     download copy: cbfr-ctf.zip (ZIP format), cbfr-ctf.gz (GNU ZIP
format) 

     Fusion Reactors Based on Colliding Beams in a Field Reversed
Configuration Plasma 
     N. Rostoker, M. Binderbauer and H.J. Monkhorst, Comments Plasma
Phys. Controlled Fusion, 18, 11 (1997). 
     download copy: cbfr-cpf.zip (ZIP format), cbfr-cpf.gz (GNU ZIP
format) 

     Turbulent Transport in Magnetic Confinement: How to Avoid it. 
     M.W. Binderbauer and N. Rostoker, J. Plasma Physics, 56, 451
(1996). download copy: cbfr-jpp.zip (ZIP format), cbfr-jpp.gz (GNU ZIP
format) 

Contact Addresses:
     Prof. Emeritus Norman Rostoker 
     email: nrostoke uci.edu, phone: (714) 824-6949 

     Prof. Hendrik J. Monkhorst 
     email: monkhors qtp.ufl.edu, phone: (352) 392-6975 

     Dr. Michl Binderbauer 
     email: michl nolan.ps.uci.edu, phone: (714) 824-7507 

     Dr. Frank J. Wessel 
     email: fwessel uci.edu, phone: (714) 824-6854 

                            Copyright İ 1997 CBFR Team.
                             Last Updated: Dec. 3, 1997

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 10:32:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31022;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:30:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:30:01 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971204123013.0077504c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:30:13 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Garbled Sono Story
In-Reply-To: <199712041725.MAA12404 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"X0SKO2.0.Ta7.dQlXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13447
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 12:34 12/4/97 -0000, Gene wrote:

>The fellow's name is Jim (or Tim) Lucas. He was shown with the small 
>device with wires coming out of it to power a refrigerator -- a standard 
>5+foot tall American unit....

A year or so ago, there was a Wall Street Journal article (big spread)
about a new sound technology that could be used _directly_ to produce
refrigeration.

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 10:49:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20723;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971204123847.ZM24527 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:38:47 -0600
In-Reply-To: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
        "Garbled Sono Story" (Dec  4, 11:28am)
References: <199712041725.MAA12404 mercury.mv.net>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Garbled Sono Story
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"ExKAJ2.0.d35.5alXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13448
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Dec 4, 11:28am, E.F. Mallove wrote:

> I just heard from a friend about something he saw yesterday on CNN. It
> sounds very bizarre and he may have gotten the facts completely screwed
> up so perhaps one of you who may have seen it can clarify.  But this is
> the essence of what was in the story:

You haven't been reading your mail.....  8^)

Fredrick alerted us to the story from CNN's website yesterday.  I did some
extensive keyword and directory searches, but could find nothing to back up or
corroborate anything in the report.  I offered to post what I have on current
developments in acoustic compressor technology, but no one spoke up, so I
didn't bother bringing it in with me this morning.

The offer still stands to post the information, but only if someone is
interested.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 12:02:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15261;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:51:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:51:21 -0800
Message-ID: <34878D4A.1C02 bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 21:12:42 -0800
From: "Terry J. Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Garbled Sono Story
References: <199712041725.MAA12404 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4B024675B26"
Resent-Message-ID: <"9Cr8o3.0.Mk3.ucmXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13449
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------4B024675B26
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

E.F. Mallove wrote:
> 
> Vortexians:
> 
> I just heard from a friend about something he saw yesterday on CNN. 

Gene,

Attached is the CNN story:

Terry

--------------4B024675B26
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Base: "http://cnn.com/TECH/9712/02/sound.wave
	.energy/"

<BASE HREF="http://cnn.com/TECH/9712/02/sound.wave.energy/">

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>CNN - Invention may do for sound what laser did for light - December 2, 1997</TITLE>

</HEAD>
<!-- Writer:     jc   -->
<!-- AP:         jc   -->
<!-- Copy editor: sg  -->
<!-- Web editor:  fj  -->
<!-- Sysop:       lh  -->
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" BACKGROUND="/images/9607/bgbar.gif" LINK="#0A3990" ALINK="#FF0000" VLINK="#FF0000">
<TABLE WIDTH=600 BORDER=0>

<!--========== NAVIGATION ================-->
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=118 VALIGN=TOP ALIGN=LEFT>
<A HREF="/index.html" NAME="#top"><IMG SRC="/images/9607/cnn_logo.gif" ALT="CNN logo" ALIGN=RIGHT WIDTH="103" HEIGHT="80" BORDER="0" HSPACE="10"></A>
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<A HREF="/MAPS/9707/navs/basic.map"><IMG SRC="/images/9707/nav_sci-tech.gif" ALT="Navigation" ALIGN=LEFT WIDTH="110" HEIGHT="396" BORDER="0" HSPACE="7" ISMAP USEMAP="#map"></A>
<BR CLEAR=ALL><BR>
<!--========== NAVIGATION ================-->


<!--=========Search and Promos============-->
<!-- search  - replace with explore.static.gif if need be-->
<!--  search  - replace with explore.static.gif if need be-->
<A HREF="/MAPS/9704/explore.map"><IMG SRC="/images/9704/explore.anim.gif" ALT="Infoseek/Big Yellow" ALIGN=RIGHT WIDTH="106" HEIGHT="107" HSPACE=10 BORDER=0 ISMAP></A>
<BR CLEAR=ALL><br><BR CLEAR=ALL>
<!-- /search -->

<!--  spotlight -->
<A HREF="/MAPS/9704/spotlight.map"><IMG SRC="/images/9705/pathnet.warner.gif" ALT="Pathfinder/Warner Bros" ALIGN=RIGHT WIDTH="106" HEIGHT="104" HSPACE=10 BORDER=0 ISMAP></A>
<BR CLEAR=ALL><br><BR CLEAR=ALL>
<!-- /spotlight -->

<!-- barnesandnoble -->
<A HREF="http://barnesandnoble.bfast.com/booklink/click?sourceid=11764&categoryid=cnnsearch"><IMG SRC="/images/9710/book.search.gif" ALIGN=RIGHT ALT="Barnes and Noble" WIDTH=106 HEIGHT=104 HSPACE=10 BORDER=0></A><BR>
<BR CLEAR=ALL><br><BR CLEAR=ALL>
<!-- /barnesandnoble -->

<!--=========Search and Promos============-->


<BR><BR>
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<!--Insert multimedia table here-->
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=482 VALIGN=TOP>
<!--=========================-->


<TABLE BORDER=0>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=220 ALIGN=RIGHT>
<IMG SRC="/TECH/images/9702/sci_tech.gif" ALT="Tech banner"  WIDTH="187" HEIGHT="60" BORDER="0">
</TD>
<TD WIDTH=260>
<A HREF="/event.ng/Type=click&RunID=6281&ProfileID=61&AdID=3520&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fe-business"><img src="/ads/advertiser/ibm/9711/sports_234_9k.gif" border=1 width="234" height="60" alt="IBM E-business solutions"></a>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
<CENTER>
<IMG SRC="/images/9607/hr.gif" ALT="rule" WIDTH="430" HEIGHT="3">
</CENTER><BR>

<!--========================================================-->
<!--============== Paste stories below here ================-->
<!--========================================================-->
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<!--========================================================-->

<H1>Invention may do for sound what laser did for light</H1>

<TABLE border=0 ALIGN=RIGHT CELLPADDING=0 CELLSPACING=0 BORDER=0 HSPACE=5 VSPACE=5 WIDTH=185> 
<TR><TD colspan=2>
<!--===========IMAGE============-->
<IMG SRC="tube.jpg" ALT="Sound container" WIDTH="185" HEIGHT="118" BORDER="0">
<!--===========/IMAGE===========-->
</TR></TD>

<TR>
<TD>
<FONT SIZE="-2" FACE="helvetica, arial">
<B>
<!--===========CAPTION==========-->
Lucas uses containers of various shapes to eliminate shock waves
<!--===========/CAPTION=========-->

</B>
</FONT>
</TD><TD width=12>&nbsp;&nbsp;</TD>
</TR></TABLE>

<h3>'It's doing something ... completely impossible'</h3>

<!--DATE-->

<FONT SIZE="1">December 2, 1997<br>
 Web posted at: 9:52 p.m. EST (0252 GMT)</FONT>


<!--/DATE-->

<P>From Correspondent Jim Hill</P>

<P>
SAN DIEGO (CNN) -- A researcher says he has done something 
"completely impossible" by harnessing the power of sound, and 
that eventually it will be available in everything from home 
appliances to industrial compressors.
</P>

<P>
<A HREF="link.lucas.jpg">Tim Lucas</A> says he made a radical discovery while working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico that enables 
him to create more energy through sound waves than was ever 
thought possible.
</P>

<P>
"It's not an incremental improvement in an existing 
technology," Lucas says, "it's suddenly doing something which 
before was completely impossible."
</P>

<!-- vxtreme link -->
<TABLE WIDTH=160 ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#CCCCCC" CELLPADDING=4 HSPACE=8 VSPACE=2>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER>
<A HREF="video.html"><IMG SRC="/images/9706/vxtreme/vx_bar+txt.gif" ALT="vxtreme" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="20" BORDER="0">
<B>
CNN's Jim Hill reports</B></A>
</TD></TR>
</TABLE>
<!-- /vxtreme link -->

<P>
Scientists have long known that sound is composed of pulsing 
waves of energy, but it was considered useless as a power 
source because at high levels sound waves distort into shock 
waves.
</P>

<P>
An example is the way sound distorts on a stereo or radio 
speakers when turned up too loud.
</P>

<P>
But Lucas discovered that by sending sound waves through 
empty containers of various shapes, the shock waves were 
eliminated.
</P>

<h3>Clean electric power generators?</h3> 

<P>
"Once you've done that," he says, "you can add all the 
energy, create all the pressure, and deliver all the power 
that you want."
    
</P> 
<P>
Lucas calls his invention Resonant Macrosonic Synthesis -- 
RMS.
</P>

<P>
He has used it to power such things as a gas compressor, but 
believes there is so much potential that he compares what he 
has done with sound to what the laser has done with light.
</P>

<P>
His company, Macrosonix, is working on sound wave compressors 
which might one day do everything from cool refrigerators and 
air conditioners in the home to running compressors in 
factories and on construction sites.

</P> 
<P>
The beauty of a sound-wave compressor is that it would do 
what a compressor does, but without the moving parts required 
in conventional piston technology.
</P>

<P>
Mechanical engineering professor <A HREF="link.hamilton.jpg">Mark Hamilton</A>, who has followed Lucas' work, says, "I don't think the idea struck 
people that you could use sound waves to do, say, pumping 
that could be used on a commercial scale. And I think that 
was the innovative part of the idea here."
</P>

<P>
Macrosonix researchers say they also hope to use sound to 
create clean electric power generators, replacing any number 
of machines with the technology of an empty cavity.
</P>

</BLOCKQUOTE>

<A NAME="links">&nbsp;</A>
<BR clear="all">
<!-- ============================================-->
<!-- ================= Relateds =================-->
<!-- ============================================-->
<CENTER>
<IMG SRC="/images/9607/hr.gif" ALT="rule" WIDTH="430" HEIGHT="3">
</CENTER>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<H3>Related site:</H3><EM><FONT SIZE="2">Note: Pages will open in a new browser window</FONT></EM>
<UL>
<li><a href="http://www.lanl.gov/external/" target="new">Los Alamos National Laboratory</a>
</UL>

<CENTER>
<P><EM>External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.</EM></P>
</CENTER>
<!-- ============================================-->
<!-- ================= Relateds =================-->
<!-- ============================================-->

<!--========================================================-->
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<!--========================================================-->
<!--===============Paste story between here=================-->
<!--========================================================-->

<!--======================= search =========================-->
<CENTER>
<HR WIDTH=430 NOSHADE>
<font face="helvetica,arial" size="1">
<form name=seek method=GET action="http://search.cnn.com:8765/query.html">
<A HREF="http://search.cnn.com"><IMG SRC="/images/9706/infoseek.sm.gif" ALT="Infoseek search" ALIGN=ABSMIDDLE WIDTH="83" HEIGHT="23" BORDER="0"></A>
<input type=text name=qt size=20 value="" maxlength=50><!--txt here only-->
<input type=hidden name=qc value="">
<input type=hidden name=col value="cnni">
<input type=hidden name=qm value="0">
<input type=hidden name=st value="1">
<input type=hidden name=nh value="10">
<input type=hidden name=lk value="1">
<input type=hidden name=rf value="1">
<input type=submit name=go value="seek">&nbsp;<input type=submit name=help value="help">
</form>
</font>
<HR WIDTH=430 NOSHADE>
<br clear="all">
</CENTER>
<!--======================= search =========================-->






<CENTER>
<IMG SRC="/images/9607/hr.gif" ALT="rule" WIDTH="430" HEIGHT="3">
</CENTER>

<CENTER><P>
Watch these shows on CNN for more sci-tech stories:<BR><BR>
<A HREF="/CNN/Programs/CompConn/index.html">CNN Computer Connection</A> | <A HREF="/CNN/Programs/FutureWatch/index.html">Future Watch</A> | <A HREF="/CNN/Programs/Science/index.html">Science & Technology Week</A>  
</P></CENTER>

<CENTER>
<IMG SRC="/images/9607/hr.gif" ALT="rule" WIDTH="430" HEIGHT="3">

<TABLE BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING=5>
<TR><TD>
<A HREF="/cnnplus/community/message/"><IMG SRC="/images/9704/plus_message.gif" ALT="Message Boards" ALIGN=LEFT WIDTH="60" HEIGHT="59" BORDER=0></A>
</TD><TD>
<A HREF="/cnnplus/community/message/">Sound off on our<BR>message boards</A><BR><BR>
<A HREF="/feedback/comments.html">You said it...</A>
</TD><TD>	
<IMG SRC="/images/9607/dot.gif" ALIGN=TOP WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="96" BORDER="0">
</TD><TD>
<A HREF="/event.ng/Type=click&RunID=6281&ProfileID=61&AdID=3520&Redirect=http:%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fe-business"><img src="/ads/advertiser/ibm/9711/sports_234_9k.gif" border=1 width="234" height="60" alt="IBM E-business solutions"></a>
</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>


<IMG SRC="/images/9607/hr.gif" ALT="rule" WIDTH="430" HEIGHT="3">
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR CLEAR=ALL>
<A HREF="#top"><IMG SRC="/images/9607/back_to_top.gif" ALT="To the top" WIDTH="87" HEIGHT="45" BORDER=0></A>
<P>&#169; 1997 Cable News Network, Inc.<BR>All Rights Reserved.</p>
<H6><A HREF="/interactive_legal.html">Terms</A> under which this
     service is provided to you.</H6>
</CENTER>

</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>


		<map name="map">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 372, 110, 385"
				href="/SEARCH/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 347, 110, 360"
				href="/feedback/help/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 383, 110, 397"
				href="/CNN/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 359, 111, 373"
				href="/feedback/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 334, 110, 347"
				href="/INDEX/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="1, 297, 112, 316"
				href="/cnnfn/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="2, 279, 110, 299"
				href="/allpolitics/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="2, 262, 110, 282"
				href="/cnnsi/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 237, 111, 257"
				href="/EARTH/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 219, 113, 239"
				href="/HEALTH/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 201, 110, 221"
				href="/SHOWBIZ/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 183, 110, 203"
				href="/STYLE/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 166, 111, 185"
				href="/TRAVEL/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 147, 111, 167"
				href="/TECH/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="5, 130, 111, 148"
				href="/cnnsi/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 112, 110, 131"
				href="/WEATHER/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 93, 112, 113"
				href="/LOCAL/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="3, 75, 110, 95"
				href="/US/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 58, 110, 77"
				href="/WORLD/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 28, 112, 54"
				href="/cnnplus/">
			<area shape="rect" coords="4, 0, 111, 29"
				href="http://cnn.com/customnews/">
		</map>



</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------4B024675B26--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 13:53:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05545;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:46:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:46:51 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 21:46:09 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <348695d8.27907009 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0@spectre.mitre.org>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8QSG_3.0.XM1.AJoXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13450
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:30:00 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote:
[snip]
>   Once upon a time a lot of effort went into looking for stripping
>reactions that produced net energy.  (Bombard a thin target with deuterons,
>and dump the neutron beam into depleted U3O8.  In addition to the 10+ MeV
>from the stripping, you get about 200 MeV of energy from each fast neutron
>that reacts with the U238.)  The consensus was that the cost of the
>deuterium rendered it impractical as a (earthbound) power generation
>source, but very practical for use in spacecraft. 
>
>                                        Robert I. Eachus
[snip]
Thanks Robert. This of course raises even more questions :), like ...
Surely the only D lost is that which actually undergoes a reaction, as
with a little engineering, the non-reacted D can be recycled. So I
find the cost of D as a reason for not following through, a bit weak.
You also mention "net energy production". Lack thereof seems a more
probable reason.
 
>Significant neutrons from stripping have
>been seen with average plasma temperatures in the 1 eV range, but the
>actual particles involved are "runaways" in the 10+ keV range.

I am also curious exactly how significant. Presumably by "runaways",
you mean the very tail end of the distribution? If so, guesstimate
says there would be very few of these indeed in a plasma with a 1 eV
average temp. So is "significant" perhaps more significant than would
appear at first blush? 
I.e. is there a somewhat anomalous reaction taking place here (even if
not AE)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 15:29:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02627;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:22:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:22:20 -0800
X-ROUTED: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:17:50 -0500
X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula
Message-ID: <34876525.BB4D63EA southconn.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 18:21:26 -0800
From: steve/paula <paula southconn.com>
Organization: Sisters of Silicon, Inc
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Garbled Sono Story
References: <199712041725.MAA12404 mercury.mv.net> <971204123847.ZM24527@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"PBnHm3.0.pe.fipXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13451
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John - please post (g) - steve


John E. Steck wrote:
> On Dec 4, 11:28am, E.F. Mallove wrote:
> > I just heard from a friend about something he saw yesterday on CNN. It
> > sounds very bizarre and he may have gotten the facts completely screwed
> > up so perhaps one of you who may have seen it can clarify.  But this 
> corroborate anything in the report.  I offered to post what I have on current
> developments in acoustic compressor technology, but no one spoke up, so I
> didn't bother bringing it in with me this morning.
> 
> The offer still stands to post the information, but only if someone is
> interested.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 18:02:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05122;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:56:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:56:26 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: (Off Topic) Query Re: "Hot Talk, Cold Science"
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:45:18 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971205015014724.AAA266 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"IvwBQ2.0.rF1.9zrXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13452
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Will the person who posted the reference to Singer's book please repost it,
or send it to me, including how to reach the publisher? I didn't copy all
the info and I have combed my vortex files without spotting it. I have the
ISBN number, but it is not listed in Books In Print, so the local
bookstores can't order it. 

It was mentioned in an op-ed piece by Linda Chavez in this morning's
Philadelphia Inquirer.

Thanks, Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 20:11:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13041;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:06:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Minato's PPM Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"MbmgM.0.hB3.ottXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13453
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians:

Here is an update on Kohei Minato's over-unity permanent magnet inventions.
Minato is currently having manufactured, over in Japan, a large unit, (4)
connected 10 foot long units, that can power 30 homes.  It is estimated to
be finished by February.  CNN is scheduled to report on it when ready.
Minato also has a home powering unit.  Both size units are based on his USA
Patent 5,594,289 that uses a battery to start and stop the unit.  

The USA sales representative is Bob Vermillion and his e-mail address is

polenetic aol.com

No web site yet but Bob Vermillion's office is in Century City, California
and he said he can answer your technical, marketing, and manufacturing
questions.  He just came back from visiting Minato's lab in Japan and was
impressed seeing the units working verses seeing the photo's.  A power
demonstration unit to is expected to arrive from Japan in January.  There
currently is no USA manufacturing being done and licenses are available
worldwide.   

I mentioned to Bob that there is also a large interest for a permanent
magnet rotor/stator unit that is self-rotating and self-starting, like
Minato's bicycle wheel design.  I also mentioned that a table top version of
this, for the student or as an "executive toy," would sell quite well.  He
didn't know this.  If any of  you do e-mail to Bob for info, mention to him
about the need for a table top version of the bicycle wheel and where you
got his address!   

Regards,     Michael Randall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 20:55:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07309;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:51:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:51:18 -0800
Message-ID: <3487A496.613D keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 22:52:06 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
References: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"S1XGd1.0.0o1.4XuXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13454
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Michael!

Thanks for the update...very interesting, even as an executive toy....we 
should all push for a table top version, hell even the plans for the 
self-running bicycle version.....Schnurer and Curtis might just have led 
us to something this time...I hope so, after all the earth ends in 
1998.  seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 21:37:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13263;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:33:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:33:09 -0800
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:32:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712050532.VAA01663 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"FHZ8L3.0.8F3.K8vXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13455
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jerry!

Yeah, this looks like the "real thing"!  Hoping to get more info on the
bicycle wheel design, maybe a manufacturing license/JV for a table top
version for the "executive toy" market.  I'm also interested in the home and
industrial power units when they come out in 1998.      

Regards,   Michael Randall

BTW maybe you could also ask Bob for info on the bicycle wheel design.
Maybe if enough people asks, they might manufacture for the market.

At 10:52 PM 12/4/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Michael!
>
>Thanks for the update...very interesting, even as an executive toy....we 
>should all push for a table top version, hell even the plans for the 
>self-running bicycle version.....Schnurer and Curtis might just have led 
>us to something this time...I hope so, after all the earth ends in 
>1998.  seeya!
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 22:28:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23809;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:23:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:23:41 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971205142308.006bb264 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:23:08 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Off topic question for Jerry
In-Reply-To: <3487A496.613D keelynet.com>
References: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"aBArm.0.xp5.itvXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13456
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:

><snip>
>us to something this time...I hope so, after all the earth ends in 
>1998.  seeya!

Just wondering who predicted this particular date ?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec  4 23:44:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03017;
	Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:39:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:39:23 -0800
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:38:44 +0000
Message-ID: <19971205073842.AAA77 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"KV1PU.0.1l.f-wXq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13457
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vo,

I was sent to a mountain top FAA long range radar for what was supposed to
be a quick checkout of a system, followed by a commissioning.  Then
everything fell apart.  I will spare you the details leading up to the
complete loss of service just barely after  the Thanksgiving weekend.  The
situation was declared to be a crisis and heroic efforts were made at great
expense to perform a complete antenna pedestal rebuild under poor weather
conditions.

I kicked myself daily that I had removed my Internet access software from my
government furnished laptop (to avoid any appearance of impropriety), which
was with me at the site.  Not only could I not read email, I was unable to
solicit input on this rather vexing problem.

With apologies to Bill Beaty for Vortex-Abuse, would someone who knows
3-phase motor operation (with some kind of qualifications) please help me in
the interests of the Federal government and the flying public?  I assure you
that I will give full credit before my fellow workers to whomever can offer
valid analysis.

The symptoms started with an intermittent jitter in the azimuth pulse
stream.  It became severe enough to cause planes to appear to "speed jump,"
a condition where the tracking computer computes a velocity based on present
and previous positions of a target and that velocity is drastically
different from previous such calculations.  In other words, the planes are
jumping all over the place and the data is de-certified.  This problem
plagued us for two years since the installation of a large planar phased
array beacon antenna on top of an ancient primary radar antenna.  My current
thinking is that the CG of the antenna shifted enough to cause occasional
chattering in the pedestal bearing under certain temperature conditions.
The contractor that was hired to engineer the phased array installation
seems unable to provide any engineering data on balancing considerations.
The FAA Program Office is probably too embarassed to admit that a mistake
was made.  We have sunk incredible resources designing huge band-aids into
this radar to try to fix it without success.

The 5' diameter pedestal bearing that was removed did not show any abnormal
wear, nor did any of the drive gears.  The radar is still out of service.

The best evidence that we have was taken by me using a Fluke 123 Scopemeter
to record Arms and Vrms of each phase of the drive motor at the drive motor
location.  The radar was not operating at the time.  The dual trace showed
current spiking as much as 30% above nominal for a second or so with an
almost flat corresponding voltage plot.  These current anomalies went on for
quite a while with an accompanying audible noise ("growl") whose source was
not apparent.  The noise would typically stop when the current spikes would
stop.  This evidence and another incident was  enough to trigger the
incredible effort that is still ongoing.

My meager knowledge of motors leads me to believe that the current should be
the same in all phases if the line voltage is equal and that current will
increase only in response to an increasing mechanical load.  What I find in
this motor is a variation in rms current between phase windings of around
20% with much, much less line voltage variation.  Could this be related to
mechanical vibration?  I also note that the current pulses do not exactly
coincide between phases and sometimes a pulse will appear in a phase with no
corresponding pulse in another phase.

Unfortunately, when the "experts" arrived on the scene, the motor current
was perfectly flat and I am seen as a wolf-crier.  For some reason, the FAA
seems to have no idea of how a normal motor should be operating.  The
ambient temperature is cold and constant, unlike during the warming
conditions when I measured the spiking current and constant voltage.

The motor is a 3-phase 208V induction motor.  It was installed about two
weeks ago because I found rms values to vary by as much as 30-40% in the
original motor.  One phase current  would wander up 25% or so, while another
fell 25% for extended periods like 20 to 30 minutes.

Thanks in advance.  Time is critical.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 00:17:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13971;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3487D41C.406A keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 02:14:52 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
References: <19971205073842.AAA77 HOME>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"eVIQ71.0.CQ3.rVxXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13458
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Ed!

For what it's worth, with regard to your problem, I've worked with 3phase 
motors and have seen speed variations when the motor was not on a 
dedicated line.  It was caused by other heavy inductances on the same 
circuit.  When we provided a dedicated line, removing the other loads, 
the problem went away.

You also checked for worn bearings or other resistances.  I hope that 
included when the platform was loaded with weight as bearings can 
sometimes be tricky, performing very smoothly when NOT loaded, but damn 
near locking up when under pressure.

You state you changed out the motor and the problem remains on one of the 
phases, which would indicate a line problem.  The local power company 
MUST check this out if you request it and state the urgency.  They could 
at least eliminate the incoming power as the source of the phase 
variations.

One other problem we had, was very short brownouts only at a certain time 
of the morning, this was due to another company turning on heavy 
inductive loads.  We had the power company check it out and they put in 
some heavy duty capacitors to sustain the line load at our facility.  Our 
problem never recurred.  I bring this up because you said it was 
flatlined when others came to see the problem.  

So, I would determine;

   1)  is the problem in the main line from the power company?
       (power company responsibility to determine and correct)
   2)  is the problem periodic or occurs only at or near a given time?
       (sample and plot the times when the variations occur)
       this would indicate other inductive loads somewhere on the line

There is also the possibility that the motor you just put in is not 
within spec...but there are other more probable causes.

One other possibility, back emf into the motor from platform motion that 
might be solved by a filter capacitor.

Good luck with solving your problem and please let us know what you find.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 02:21:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24874;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:17:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:17:12 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail2.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3487C48E.310E784D mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:08:30 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Help on visualizing QED!
References: <74A7E65B47 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"oKr0U.0.Z46.bIzXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13459
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jay Olson wrote:
 
 "I've got a question regarding QED.  One is told to visualise two
 electrons coming together.  As the approach one another, they
 exchange virtual photons and are pushed apart.  This is the electric
 field of the electrons.  My problem is how to visualise a magnetic
 field using this way of thinking.  Does anybody know how to do this?
 Also, how does one visualize attractive force between unlike charges?
  Thanks, JAY OLSON"
 
 Hi Jay,
 
 My source responds to your remarks as follows:
 
 "Two electrons repel each other through the equivalence of their
 radiation causing the electrons to push away and can be represented as
 electron<---->electron. Equivalent magnetic fields entail equivalence
 of radiation and, thus, repulsion.
 The attraction of unlike charges is due to the bodies involved fusing
 and radiating the radiation of each other."
 
 Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 02:27:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26196;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:25:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:25:25 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail2.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3487C675.564BDB7 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:16:37 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood
References: <971203081757.ZM11220 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"G-jgy2.0.DP6.IQzXq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13460
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John E. Steck wrote:
> 
> Morning Edition for Wednesday, December 03, 1997
 InfoBeat <news infobeat.com>
 
 *** Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood
 
  ...
 
 John E. Steck, Prototype Tooling.  Motorola Inc.
 
 "Astronomers said Tuesday (12-2-97) they had captured the image of
 an exploding black hole in Earth's Milky Way galaxy. They used radio
 telescopes across Britain to capture the explosion predicted by
 Einstein's theories. The scientists, at Britain's Nuffield Radio
 Astronomy Laboratory, said the black hole is at the center of a
 "micro-quasar" called GRS1915 in the constellation of Aquila the
 Eagle. It is only about 40,000 light-years away. The international team
 used MERLIN (the Multi Element Radio Linked Interferometer
 Network), made up of 6 radio telescopes spread out across England.
 See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6261377-bcc"
 
 My source comments on the above news release as follows:
 
 "What they detected is the explosion of an embryonic star which
 formed from the radiation called space and exploded under the
 increasing density of the radiation called space."
 
 Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 03:59:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02669;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:51:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:51:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102804b0ad9afe7de7 [12.64.37.15]>
In-Reply-To: <199712050532.VAA01663 norway.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:51:15 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"iX7_01.0.df.xg-Xq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13461
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael -

  > Yeah, this looks like the "real thing"!

Don't they always.  ;)

Hopeful but cautious,

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 04:57:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08243;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:55:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:55:21 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 04:54:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update (fwd)
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971205045359.20921E-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"eP2gI3.0.i02.uc_Xq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13462
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Michael -
>
>   > Yeah, this looks like the "real thing"!
>

Don't send money until after you've received a working unit! Make him send
you an invoice. Just standard business practice.

Martin



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 05:05:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09114;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Hal Puthoff" <puthoff aol.com>
Subject: Thoughts on Space Quantization and The Fine Structure Constant "alpha".
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:00:43 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd017d$cba6fbe0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"PkYCI3.0.KE2.dk_Xq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13463
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The capacitance of space,8.84E12 coulombs/joule-meter appears to be a
one-dimensional "line" of energy.

Thus as seen in many of the particles observed in Nature
or created in High Energy Physics research the "subatomic" particles have
masses of n*Me/alpha where alpha is the "Fine Structure Constant" 0.00729729
or it's reciprocal 137.0371 and Me is the rest mass of the electron.

The "Bohr Radius Orbits-Energies are also multiples
or sub-multiples of alpha*Ee where Ee is the rest energy of the electron.

For instance 13.6 ev = alpha^Ee/2 and the orbital energies
are 13.6/n^2 and so on.

On the other end of the spectrum the pion of 2*Ee/alpha is 274 times the
rest energy of the electron and so on for many "heavy sub-atomic particles".

This could be given physical meaning if the permittivity of space, eo =
8.84E-12 coulombs/joule-meter is taken in the context of a one-dimensional
"line" in space that can be open-ended for a propagating photon or a line
closed in a circle which manifests itself as a particle with energy
w = .5q^2/2(pi)r*eo where r is the radius of the circle. It would follow
that pair production from photons would be quantized in multiples of Alpha.

Most likely there is a subtle fit for Planck's constant in this also.
However, it is approaching wake-up time for the
Dynamic-Duo and I better quit while I think I'm ahead. :-)

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 06:03:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14322;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:58:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:58:06 -0800
Message-Id: <199712051357.IAA02449 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Dr. Mallove on New Jersey Television Today
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 09:06:56 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"lUKRO2.0.dV3.jX0Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13464
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vortexians -- epsecially those who live in New Jersey:

********SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT********

Today, December 5, 1997 at 12:30 p.m. eastern US time, 1.6 million 
subscribers to Cable Television Network of New Jersey (CTN-NJ) will be 
able to view a 30-minute interview with Dr. Eugene F. Mallove of Infinite 
Energy Magazine who will discuss progress in cold fusion and low-energy 
transmutation science and technology. Dr. Mallove will also be speaking  
about the role of hot fusion in the cold fusion controversy, so this 
program should be of special interest to the community of Princeton and 
its surrounds. The program is in the series, "Common Concerns," and was 
taped early in November. The charming host of the program, who took the 
initiative to have this aired, is former school teacher Maria Ferris, now 
of Maria Ferris Productions.

Those wishing a tape of the 1/2 hour program can write to:

Debbie Gist, Station Manager
Piscataway Community Television Center
455 Hoes Lane
Piscataway, NJ 08854  

We believe the charge for a tape dub of the program is $17.00

We hope you all enjoy the program!

Please check our WWW site: 
(http://www.infinite-energy.com) for latest cold fusion and low energy 
transmutation developments. The latest issue of Infinite Energy (Double 
Issue #15/16, 128 pages) has news of how at least one hot fusion person, 
Dr. Barry Merriman of UCLA, has been working diligently to resolve 
anomalous phenomena in the thermal processing of metals. Also in Issues 
#15/16 is the full text and graphics of US Patent #5,672,259 granted 
9/30/97 to Dr. James Patterson of Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. "System 
with Electrolytic Cell and Method for Producing Heat and Reducing 
Radioactivity of a Radioactive Material by Electrolysis." 

In this issue of Infinite Energy there is also a pioneering low energy 
transmutation article by Dr. Vincenzo Nassisi of the University of Lecce 
(ITALY), Department of Physics, Laboratory of Applied Electronics, 
"Morphologic Deformation and Distribution of Generated Elements in 
Saturated Palladium Samples Processed by a UV Excimer Laser"

This issue includes the full text and graphics of the September,1996 US 
Navy report on "Anamolous Effects in Deuterated Systems" by Dr. Melvin 
Miles, Benjamin F. Bush, and Kendall Johnson (NAWCWPNS TP 8302).

There is also news and analysis of what Nobel laureate Glenn T. Seaborg 
told President George Bush at the White House about cold fusion on  April 
14, 1989 (only three weeks after the March 23, 1989 announcement). A very 
revealing historical episode.

Sincerely,


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 06:37:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19048;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971205093012.0069c2b8 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:30:12 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Last Call to COLD FUSION TIMES publication rate question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8YdOC.0.Xf4.1_0Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13465
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

<bold>

   Answer to (part 1) of the COLD FUSION TIMES puzzle


</bold> Cold fusion -- the isotopic loading of Group VIII metals --

is real, and appears to be consistent with 

conventional physics.  Based upon a review of the world 

cold fusion literature, previously, regarding the publication rate,

two questions were asked with the two year subscriptions of the

COLD FUSION TIMES for the closest.


      =========================================


 Part 1 is closed, and our <bold>Horace Heffner</bold> ought have some
reading

material for the long winter night, when he breaks from his

current experiments.


 Part 2 will remain open through Monday midnight (12/8).  


 Here is the question, which is worthy of thought in any case.


 When one examines the entire world-wide literature concerning

cold fusion (loading hydrogen isotopes into metals by electrolysis,

gas, or discharge), what is the annual publication rate of cf papers?

  (units = papers/year)  --> HINT: more than 40; less than 5000.

         

 The closest answer yields two years of COLD FUSION TIMES

  http:\\world.std.com\~mica\cft.html   

  ISSN# 1072-2874


   The submitted answer can be sent to me by email

 mica world.std.com  subject "CONTEST") to keep the S/N down.

     Answer next week.

 

      Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


   



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 06:43:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22113;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:39:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:39:36 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Hal Puthoff" <puthoff aol.com>
Subject: Quantized Strings and Alpha
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:37:31 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd018b$5172c580$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"P26Eb2.0.RP5.d81Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13466
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Since the energy of a particle w = .5q^2/2(pi)r*eo and it can be shown that
the mass-energy of particles quantize
n*Me/alpha where Me is the rest mass of the electron(used as a reference
mass).A geometrical meaning would be that space requires quantization of a
"string length" 2(pi)r.

This must be a phenomenon of the Riemannian-Minkowski-Einstein "geometry" of
4th or 5th dimension space-folding.

Alpha is by coincidence sin 0.4181x degrees which approaches the smallest
perceivable angle created when a perfect sphere sets on a flat surface.

Is alpha a constant in this geometry?

Where are those mathematicians when you need them?  :-)

Regards,     Frederick







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 06:56:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25539;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:54:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:54:42 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0adc561c8f6 [199.237.131.235]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:56:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
Resent-Message-ID: <"AGY6h1.0.vE6.mM1Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13467
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Some ideas:

(1) Put in a 3 phase power conditioning unit.
(2) Get a scope with a printer on it, or at least waveform storage. Don't
know if Fluke has the options, but Tektronics has a bunch of options for
printing and waveform storage.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 08:08:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14803;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:03:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:03:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:01:33 +0000
Message-ID: <19971205160131.AAA24175 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"URf1_2.0.Bd3.tM2Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13468
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:14 AM 12/5/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi Ed!
>
>For what it's worth, with regard to your problem, I've worked with 3phase 
>motors and have seen speed variations when the motor was not on a 
>dedicated line.  It was caused by other heavy inductances on the same 
>circuit.  When we provided a dedicated line, removing the other loads, 
>the problem went away.
>
>You also checked for worn bearings or other resistances.  I hope that 
>included when the platform was loaded with weight as bearings can 
>sometimes be tricky, performing very smoothly when NOT loaded, but damn 
>near locking up when under pressure.
>
>You state you changed out the motor and the problem remains on one of the 
>phases, which would indicate a line problem.  The local power company 
>MUST check this out if you request it and state the urgency.  They could 
>at least eliminate the incoming power as the source of the phase 
>variations.
>
>One other problem we had, was very short brownouts only at a certain time 
>of the morning, this was due to another company turning on heavy 
>inductive loads.  We had the power company check it out and they put in 
>some heavy duty capacitors to sustain the line load at our facility.  Our 
>problem never recurred.  I bring this up because you said it was 
>flatlined when others came to see the problem.  
>
>So, I would determine;
>
>   1)  is the problem in the main line from the power company?
>       (power company responsibility to determine and correct)
>   2)  is the problem periodic or occurs only at or near a given time?
>       (sample and plot the times when the variations occur)
>       this would indicate other inductive loads somewhere on the line
>
>There is also the possibility that the motor you just put in is not 
>within spec...but there are other more probable causes.
>
>One other possibility, back emf into the motor from platform motion that 
>might be solved by a filter capacitor.
>
>Good luck with solving your problem and please let us know what you find.
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 09:00:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19595;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:54:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:54:41 -0800
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020900b0adca208695 [128.183.200.195]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:49:23 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Gamma ray halo and cdm
Resent-Message-ID: <"o8bma2.0.5o4.G73Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13469
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  I noticed that the science news journals are now reporting on the gamma
ray halo around the galaxy.  It is most amazing.  The halo occupies a
rather narrow subtended angle about the galactic plane so the spatial
position identification seems correct.  If it were extra-galactic there
should be no correlation with the galactic plane.  If it were closer in,
the angular symmetry would be hard to explain.  The energy is about 1 Gev
with no detectable radiation at lower energies.  Taking the hydrino energy
formula

E(n) = 13.6 n^2  ev = 1 10^9

we get n = 8575 .  The suggestion that hydrinos are the cdm and that they
are producing the gamma ray halo is preposterous.  There would be hundreds
of millions of transitions between different levels of n < 8575 which would
have lower energy and should be visible.  The 1 Gev radiation should be a
very tiny part of a much larger amount of radiation at lower energies which
should be visible but is not.  There is no halo at lower energies.  Put
simply, the energy levels of the hydrino are too low by a factor of 10
million.
  There is something out there with an energy of interaction about a factor
of 100 larger than from the strongest known force, the nuclear force.  With
the energy of the proton at about .94 Gev, protron-antiproton annihilation
would be a candidate.  The proposed theory of sucking protons into a black
hole seems unlikely as 100% conversion of mass to energy in a single event
is required and that is unlikely.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 09:16:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25298;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:07:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:07:10 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348824DD.6872 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:59:25 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, claytor_t_@lanl.gov,
        dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com,
        bhorst loc100.tandem.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp,
        ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr,
        blue pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov,
        wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        mike_mckubre qm.qri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, tchubb@aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu,
        tleaf lanl.gov, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        rdeagleton csupomona.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        JNaudin509 aol.com, nick7@itl.net, rooster@mail.utexas.edu,
        lentin imaginet.fr, zhang@jwri.osaka-u.ac.jp, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        kurtz imap2.ASU.EDU, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        eureka bright.net, fawolf@ix.netcom.com, JosephHRowe@compuserve.com,
        terry4 llnl.gov, bsulliva#@#sky.net, ggmurray@uriacc.uri.edu,
        dnovak uriacc.uri.edu, jmyeo@juno.com, sethnet@efn.org,
        ctraison msn.com, cmurray@uh.edu, zumm@flash.net, key@trail.com,
        rollo artvark.com, sarfatti@well.com, smurray@hsph.harvard.edu,
        lucille telis.org, katnewroe@aol.com, 72507.3443@compuserve.com
Subject: Murray: White Noise SF story; Sullivan: Cold Fusion medley
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4AC71D781A9A"
Resent-Message-ID: <"I-dC31.0.9B6.vI3Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13470
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------4AC71D781A9A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 5, 1997

Dear all,   This post by Bob Sullivan, while ascerbic, reminded me of a
science fiction story I read in the late 1950's, which Dennis Cravens
also read and liked: "White Noise"-- anyone know the author and date?

The story goes: A talented young physicist is called to the Pentagon to
a top secret meeting.  They are told that an inventor had walked in the
previous month, carrying a backpack antigravity unit, which he proceded
to demonstrate in the inner courtyard.  They were shown a film of the
event.  He smiled, wearing the unit, holding his only folder of
information about it, rose a hundred feet into the air, only to burst
into flame and crash into mangled wreckage.  A search of his home found
a huge library that covered an amazing variety of topics, and a
workshop-laboratory that had every conceivable gadget and material,
while his notes were equally diverse and puzzling.  The assignment was
simple and top priority: replicate the discovery ASAP.

Our hero and his comrades struggled mightily for months, working at a
feverish pace, to make some sense of all this.  One of his older, more
sardonic teammates came to the conclusion that the whole thing was some
kind of hoax, and resigned.  Near despair, our hero woke from a long and
troubled night of restless sleep with a new idea-- perhaps there was a
crack in the law of Conservation of Energy.  He found an unexpected
subtle effect.  A year and billions of dollars later, he was able to
throw a switch, and a device the size of a battleship, consuming the
energy of ten cities, groaned upward a few inches and hovered a minute.

Jubilant, he was taken to the original briefing room.  In walked the
inventor, hale and hearty-- an actor in what was indeed a hoaxed film,
designed to inculcate the belief that antigravity could be discovered,
while providing a chaos of input data, "white noise," to stimulate
completely creative thinking and exploring.

I've felt for years that the cold fusion and new energy fields are   
like this story.  Communing via the Net, a world-wide community of
explorers, not very sanctioned or controlled by government, business, or
academia, are fishing in strange waters with various nets.  Something
very unexpected is bound to be eventually hauled in, comparable to
Becquerel's discovery of radioactivity and Roentgen's X-rays a century
ago, which unlocked the mysteries of the atom, in our line of probably
history.  So, let's appreciate the potential enormous value of eccentric
science, and regard ourselves with fond good humor, as we foist our
foibles.

The infinite has no intrinsic divisions or barriers within itself, so
all of it, in its fathomless and feckless creativity is fully present in
every part of itself, in every spot and every event, already, always,
fully interconnected within itself, infinitely multidimensional.  It
reveals itself tactfully, teasingly to us, aspects of its own warm
creativity, who approach life gladly, openly, playfully, curious and
hungry for deeper truth.  Infinite Energy!

--------------4AC71D781A9A
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust168.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.168])
	by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA04191
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:34:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348792C5.31D3 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:36:05 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Subject: Sullivan: Cold Fusion medley
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!209.90.0.8!alpha.sky.net!bsulliva
From: bsulliva# #sky.net (Bob Sullivan)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Cold Fusion
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 16:25:06 GMT
Organization: SkyNET Corporation
Distribution: World
Message-ID: <667vin$e7j$1 alpha.sky.net>
References: <65ve9q$61a$1 shadow.skypoint.net> <661atn$e85$1@news.fsu.edu> <3484C8AA.7919@skypoint.com> <663uq8$5q2$1@news.fsu.edu> <6657ua$dsi$1@shadow.skypoint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ts-2-ip48.kc.sky.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0

In article <6657ua$dsi$1 shadow.skypoint.net>, John Logajan <jlogajan@mirage.skypoint.net> wrote:
->Jim Carr <jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu> wrote:
->>  You can mock the person or mock the idea.  
->>  Not the same thing.
->
->As far as logical correctness is concerned, the distinction is irrelevant.
->Mocking a true idea does not make it a false idea.  Mocking a false idea
->does not demonstrate its falsity.
->
->Since mockery is not a valid logical arguement, it is apparent that it
->is a tool of another agenda -- ego stroking.
->
->


John, If you get a chance, skip past the first chapter in your logic primer 
and read what it has to say about the logical validity of the 'appeal to pity' 
argument, then take a look in the mirror. Tell us what you see.

The burden of proof for cold fusion lies completely with the proponents.  The 
skeptics have no burden of proof at all.  Any 'failure' by the skeptics to 
'disprove' cold fusion has no evidentiary value.  You may not like that 
situation, but that's the way the world is. No amount of whining from you is 
going to change things.  Mr. Spock says your whining is not logical.  No 
amount of bluster from Jed is going to change things.  No amount of TB
complaining is going to add one whit of evidence in support of cold fusion.  
That's a fact, Jack.  Learn to live with it.  It's only logical.

The very concept of cold fusion is so variable and ill-defined that even the 
proponents cannot even agree among themselves what it might look like.  It is 
P&F heavy water fusion -- no wait, It's ENECO/CETI light water fusion -- no 
wait it's the Griggs gadget -- no wait, it's the Potapov pipe -- no wait, it's 
ENECO/CETI transmutation -- no wait, it produces a radiation signature, for 
sure -- no wait, it doesn't produce any radiation signature -- no wait, it 
does produce detectable ash -- no wait, it doesn't produce ash -- no wait, the 
Watson SMOT is cold fusion for sure this time -- no wait, it's the Mills 
hydrino -- no wait, the Cincy Group must have it right because God told them 
so -- no wait, Champion...Neuman...antigravity...aneutronic...ZPE...ad 
nauseum.  I am sure that you, as a Master Logician<tm>, can appreciate the 
difficulty of disproving an unknown proposition.  Which horse are you going to 
ride?

Logically or not, people laugh at the clowns in the circus.  The clowns in the 
cold fusion circus also get laughed at, and for the same reasons, although the 
CF clowns don't really mean to be funny -- or do they?  Perhaps, only the 
Shadow knows.

Hope this helps. Have a nice day.



--------------4AC71D781A9A--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 12:34:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24868;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:24:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:24:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Off-Topic] Radar Antenna Problem Found
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:22:30 +0000
Message-ID: <19971205202222.AAB2856 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"borUT1.0.O46.VB6Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13471
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vo,

Thanks to you all for your suggestions and special thanks to John Schnurer.
The problem was found in the antenna pedestal bearing.  It was due to
overloading.  The original engineering firm should pay, but since we are the
gubbermint, we'll probably give them more contracts and promote all
government parties involved.
 
It was hard to believe it was mechanical because the spikes were so short.
Interesting...

I have a real sense of relief.  I suppose it was like a few minutes in
Martin Fleischman's life.  I was right all along, but I could get no one to
believe me when the first few attempts at troubleshooting yielded nothing
and my evidence was simply ignored.  The temptation to disbelieve one's own
experience is a shortcut to insanity (borrowed from R.D.Laing).

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 12:41:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02217;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:34:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:34:12 -0800
Message-ID: <34886544.2EF0 interlaced.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:34:12 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
References: <19971205073842.AAA77 HOME>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"iOAOp3.0.NY.1L6Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13472
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ed Wall wrote:
> 
  The dual trace showed
> current spiking as much as 30% above nominal for a second or so with an
> almost flat corresponding voltage plot.  These current anomalies went on for
> quite a while with an accompanying audible noise ("growl") whose source was
> not apparent.  The noise would typically stop when the current spikes would
> stop. 

Ed, Jerry's comments are good ones - also, if it were just a single
motor, I would suspect water in the stator windings.  Even sealed units
can sometimes breath enough moist air to cause condensation problems.
But two motors!!???  I'm suggesting intermittant inter-phase shorts via
moisture - but the history makes this seem strange.  Bad squirrel-cage
rotors can cause strange problems  - sometimes the swaged rotor bar
connections open up and give weird operation - depends on how the rotors
were fabricated.  Again, for two motors in a row???

Good luck, Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 13:07:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28581;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:50:40 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:50:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.00696b6520436f6e3030304430303044 MAPI.to.RFC822>
Priority: Normal
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
From: "Mike Connolly" <mconnolly grainsystems.com>
Subject: Fw: 
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 14:55:16 PST
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FHVpz.0.V-6.Ta6Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13473
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 13:50:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19223;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:44:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:44:17 -0800
Message-Id: <34885ED1.70D71192 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:06:41 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fwd: Physnews
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B92B4930EF163C580756E01D"
Resent-Message-ID: <"FtM4t2.0.8i4.lM7Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13474
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------B92B4930EF163C580756E01D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,
I am forwarding the whole letter, because all issues are very interesting indeed. Apologize to who already subscribed to this letter.

See the bottom link for the images.

Regards,

hamdi ucar
--------------B92B4930EF163C580756E01D
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from [192.58.150.10] by rainbow.verisoft.com.tr (AIX 4.2/UCB 5.64/4.03)
          id AA30952; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:21:31 +0300
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:21:31 +0300
From: physnews aip.org
Message-Id: <9712051921.AA30952 rainbow.verisoft.com.tr>
Apparently-To: <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>


PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 349 December 3, 1997   
by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

MOST INTENSE MANMADE SOUND.  The production of sound
waves with 1600 times more energy per unit volume than
previously achieved has been announced by researchers at this
week's meeting of the Acoustical Society of America in San Diego,
opening up possible new uses for sound in science and technology.
Sound waves, patterns of compression and expansion in a gas such
as air, are often created and studied in closed or semi-closed
containers called cavities.  In the past, attempts to make such sound
waves louder (by adding more sound energy into the cavity) would
fail beyond a certain point because additional energy would merely
lead to the formation of a shock wave which would quickly
dissipate the energy as heat.  Until the late 1980s, researchers
thought shock-wave formation was inevitable.  In a new technique
called "resonant macrosonic synthesis," Tim Lucas and colleagues
at MacroSonix Corporation in Virginia have built cavities with
special shapes (horns, bulbs, cones) each tailored to promote certain
distinct modes of sound vibration which combine in such a way as
to inhibit the creation of shock waves, allowing sound waves of
unprecedented energy density to build up.  Filling the containers
with gas, and vibrating them to generate sound waves inside, the
researchers produced sound waves with oscillating pressures up to
500 pounds per square inch. The first technological application for
these powerful sound waves will be in an "acoustic compressor"
which uses sound rather than moving parts to compress gas inside
refrigerators and air conditioners. (Images at
www.aip.org/physnews/graphics)

A PHOTONIC HALL EFFECT AND PHOTONIC
MAGNETORESISTANCE, the optical analogs of phenomena
usually associated with  electrons moving in solids, have been
observed in an experiment involving light beams diffusing through
powders (Physics World, November 1997).  When electrons
flowing through a material are subjected to a magnetic field, the
electrons will feel a new force (the Lorentz force) and be deflected
in a direction perpendicular both to their original direction and to
the field.  Photons are not charged and so do not feel the Lorentz
force directly.  But the field can establish a nonuniform index of
refraction in a powdery medium consisting of cerium-fluoride
particles with a definite handedness. When circularly polarized light
enters this medium it gets deflected.  This magnetically induced
transverse diffusion of light was observed by scientists in Grenoble,
France (Nature, 2 May 1996).  A year later the same scientists
reported that the transmission of light through a powder of
europium-fluoride particles was proportional to the strength of an
applied magnetic field---in effect the photonic equivalent of
magnetoresistance (Sparenberg et al., Physical Review Letters, 28
July 1997).

SULPHUR SUPERCONDUCTIVITY.  Squeezed in a diamond
anvil press, sulphur undergoes a number of changes, including a
transition from insulator to conductor at a pressure of 90 giga-Pascals
(1 GPa is about 10,000 atmospheres).  Scientists from the
Institute of High Pressure Physics in Troitsk, Russia and the
Carnegie Institution in Washington, DC have squeezed harder still
and made sulphur into a superconductor. Above 162 GPa the
superconducting transition temperature went up to 17 K, the highest
for any elemental solid.  (Struzhkin et al., Nature, 27 November
1997.)

--------------B92B4930EF163C580756E01D--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 14:29:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13621;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:23:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:23:10 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Radar Antenna Problem Found
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:20:08 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd01cb$f253a9c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZJZ3u3.0.UK3.6x7Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13475
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com <vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com>
Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 1:39 PM
Subject: [Off-Topic] Radar Antenna Problem Found


>Vo,
>
>Thanks to you all for your suggestions and special thanks to John Schnurer.
>The problem was found in the antenna pedestal bearing.  It was due to
>overloading.  The original engineering firm should pay, but since we are
the
>gubbermint, we'll probably give them more contracts and promote all
>government parties involved.
>
>It was hard to believe it was mechanical because the spikes were so short.
>Interesting...


Interesting. When you mentioned that aircraft
signals indicated a jump backward, I thought
it might be a flyback transformer problem.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Ed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 18:52:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13936;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:46:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:46:56 -0800
Message-ID: <34892A88.5E02 itl.net>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 02:35:52 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rmforall earthlink.net
CC: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Murray: White Noise SF story; Sullivan: Cold Fusion medley
References: <348824DD.6872 earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ctz5a2.0.fP3.UoBYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13476
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Rich,
       Based on your description, I think the story you were referring to 
was actually called "Noise Level" by Raymond F. Jones. It first appeared 
in Astounding Science Fiction in 1952. I read it in an anthology in 1973 
and it made the same impression on me. Professor Dykstra was the arch 
sceptic and the whole story is extremely reminiscent of the arguments we 
see here on Vortex. Somehow it made me have lower expectations that CF, 
magnetic motors, antigravity, transmutation etc etc will ever turn out to 
have anything to them.

<<perhaps there was a crack in the law of Conservation of Energy>>

	Actually it was the postulate of equivalence (of inertia and 
gravity) that got chucked out.

<< A year and billions of dollars later, he was able to throw a switch, 
and a device the size of a battleship, consuming the energy of ten 
cities, groaned upward a few inches and hovered a minute>>

	Four weeks later and three feet upward....

                                       Nick Palmer - Jersey FoE

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 21:21:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04012;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:15:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:15:19 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:14:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712060514.VAA00796 germany.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"jZUsP1.0.c-.bzDYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13477
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick -

>Don't they always.  ;)
>
>Hopeful but cautious,

A couple of differences this time.  Mr. Minato welcomes visitors to see the
different magnet/EM over-unity units, as well as the self-rotating, self
starting, all permanent magnet rotor/stator, bicycle wheel unit. 

Anyone on this list near Tokyo that can take a look at this and report back?
:-)

Michael -


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 21:35:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06578;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:33:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:33:08 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3488C163.5C7B keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 19:07:15 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic question for Jerry
References: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971205142308.006bb264@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ni23B1.0.fc1.IEEYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13478
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi John W.!

With regard to my tongue-in-cheek comment about the 'earth ending in 
1998'...that was in reference to a claim made by remote viewer Ed Dames 
on the Art Bell show.....everybody is jumping on the millenial 
catastrophe scenarios...I've heard 1998 (Dames), 2000 (several), 2004 
(Hamel's aliens), 2012 (McKenna the Mayan calendar and others)...
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 22:00:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09027;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:53:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:53:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34890459.21C2 keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:52:57 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
References: <199712060514.VAA00796 germany.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SkQhg.0.zC2.zWEYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13479
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

I am told Minato is mentioned in John Davidsons book 'Secret of the 
Creative Vacuum'....will look it up in my copy.  
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 22:02:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14140;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:57:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:57:56 -0800
Message-ID: <3488DB7B.A6D earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 22:58:40 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        storms ix.netcom.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        claytor_t_n lanl.gov, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu,
        jdunn ctc.org, george@hooked.net, wireless@rmii.com,
        bhorst loc100.tandem.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp,
        ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.com,
        blue pilot.msu.edu, jejones@physics1.byu.edu, dennis@wazoo.com,
        peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com,
        tchubb aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, collis@netcity.it,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, JNaudin409.aol.com@denmark.it.earthlink.net,
        nick7 itl.net, shkedi@bose.com, rooster@mail.utexas.edu,
        lentin imaginet.fr, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        eureka bright.net, terry4@llnl.gov, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu
Subject: Shelton: tests of errors in CF calorimetry
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qxYFz2.0.sS3.ZbEYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13480
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 5, 1997

Dear all,    As in any field of science, cold fusion research can make
no progress without competent, compassionate critical work that is both
produced and received in an atmosphere of at least grudging mutual
respect in a community of mutually acknowledged peers-- actually a very
deep expression of democratic process.  Democratic process has swept the
planet in this century, proving by its success its practical and moral
superiority.  Our race has achieved its greatest pleasure and most
multifaceted creative evolution via democratic process.  Vital
ingredients are a free press, vigorous and open debate, active
willingness to hear opposing points of view, the commitment to pragmatic
compromise, prohibition of censorship, and near prohibition of
demonization, the immature and dangerous tactic of casting out opponents
as evil, incompetent, and worthless.

To those of you who need to hear this, I command thee, by the authority
of the one, to listen intently and deeply, not only to these words and
the following excellent critical offering, but to the quieter
comprehension within.

"An assessment of claims of 'excess heat' in "cold fusion' calorimetry,"
D.S. Shelton, L.D. Hansen, J.M. Thorne, S.E. Jones, Dept. of Chemistry
and Physics, Brigham Young University, Provo. UT 84602, received Feb. 4,
1997, accepted April 4, 1997, Thermochimica Acta 297 (Aug., 1997), 7-15.
Write Lee D. Hanson, [Lee_Hanson byu.edu], 801-378-2040.

Steven E. Jones [sejones physics1.byu.edu]

"Abstract:  Claims of 'excess heat' from measurements of the heat of
electrolysis at several watts of power are largely based on use of
poorly characterized, isoperibol, heat-conduction calorimeters with
single-point temperature sensors.  This paper describes construction,
testing, and calibration of a calorimeter of similar design. 
Heat-conduction calorimeters with single-point temperature sensing and
inadequate mixing are subject to large systematic errors resulting from
non-uniform heat distribution within the system.  Confirmation of
electric-heater calibration by a chemical reaction with a well-known
enthalpy change is a minimum requirement to insure accuracy.  Improper
or incomplete calibration is a probable cause for many claims of 'excess
heat' in 'cold fusion' experiments. copyright 1997 Elsevier Science
B.V."

"Continuing claims of excess heat and the untested and poorly
characterized calorimeter designs used to generate these claims became
the reason for us to reluctantly enter this arena in a effort to
determine the validity of observations of 'excess heat'...For work at
higher power, EPRI provided a small grant to construct a calorimeter
which would fit in our neutron detectors and could accurately measure
heat rates up to several watts.  Because of its potential utility in
other applications, development of this calorimeter has continued even
though EPRI withheld further support after being informed of the results
of the work done at low power. [For shame!  This shows that not just
cold fusion supporters experience funding cut-off.]  Obtaining accurate
heat rates from the high power calorimeter proved to be a challenge
because of the subtle, but large systematic erors associated with mixing
and single-point temperature sensing in the calorimeter."

E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
calorimetry:

The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment
must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same
during experiment as during calibration.

The measured delta T must be the actual value.

The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small.

The delta T should not change very quickly.

The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
constant to be large.  This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results. [my language] 
Shelton calculates in detail that Dewer flasks can have as much heat
loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.  There is usually
much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads
and tubes.

"...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures
measured at single points in each.  Any thermal gradients present in the
solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results.  This
systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat' in
flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...[delta T],
the accuracy of which could easily suffer from the presence of
temperature gradients and unaccounted-for thermal paths...Such
isoperibol, temperature-rise flow calorimeters have not proven to be
generally useful because of such problems."

"A minimum requirement to establish the accuracy of a calorimeter is
verification of electrical calibration with a known chemical
reaction...it is also necessary to show the the calibration constant is
independent of the location of the calibration heater and temperature
sensors in the vessel...With the 'cold fusion' type heat-conduction
calorimeter constructed in this study, when stirring was inadequate, we
were able to repeatedly produce apparent 'excess heat' (either positive
or negative) with a well-known chemical reaction, simply by changing the
position of the heater or temperature sensors."

A compact brass jacket isoperibol, heat-conduction calorimeter, 3.8 cm
i.d. and 17.8 cm long, had seven inlet holes at the top for water from
the distant constant temperature bath, maintained within +-0.2mK [that's
2/1000 degree K], which is discharged through brass tubes into the
bottom of the cell, while seven outlet holes at the top let the water
return to the bath.  Two more tubes from the top to near the bottom are
sealed at their bottom ends, kept filled with water to improve thermal
conductance, and serve to hold temperature sensors.  Water is circulated
at over 5 liters per min from the distant bath through the 14 flexible
tubes, which caused the cell to be named, "The Octupus".  Inside the
brass jacket is a pyrex test tube, .2 cm by 13.5 cm, holding 27.5 ml
solution and a rotary stirrer at the bottom, specially adapted to
properly stir the tall, narrow cell.

Multiple temperatures taken every 22 second are:
thermister bridge from cell to jacket,
thermocouple pair from cell to jacket,
thermocouple pair from cell to exterior ice bath.
"If the calorimeter is working properly all three sensors should record
equivalent responses to a heat effect."

"...observing the mixing of dye injections.  Visually, stirring appeared
to be very rapid, at 1000 rpm (<1 s)."

The cell measured very accurately the heat generated by precisely
measured chemicals.  The time constant was found to be about .5 min. The
calibration constant was found in two ways.  "Because the volume changes
during the experiment, the calorimeter was calibrated at various liquid
volumes."  The change was about 2% per ml at 0.8 W power. The cell
showed a persistent 8% greater thermister temperature change from the
electical calibration heater, compared to chemical heating.

"It was apparent that large systematic errors were present...Moving the
calibration heater gave a different calibration constant at each new
position.  The results with position were random, ie. the lowest
position (one-third of the way up the vessel) gave a constant ca. 18%
high, while the highest position (two-thirds of the way up the vessel)
gave a constant in agreement with the chemical reaction heats, and an
intermediate position (middle of the vessel) gave a constant ca. 18%
low.  We concluded that the point temperature sensors were not measuring
the average solution temperature.  This source of systematic error
probably accounts for many of the reports of 'excess heat' and much of
the irreproducibility of 'cold fusion' calorimetry."     

"The influence of the stirrer was investigated by changing the stirrer
motor from 1000 to 600 and 200 rpm.  'Excess heat' increased as the rpm
was reduced, from ca. 8% at 1000 rpm to ca. 11% at 600 rpm to ca. 40% at
200 rpm.  Despite visual indications, using dye injection, that stirring
was adequate, these results show that it was not."

An improved stirrer was used. "Difference between response to the
calibration heater and a chemical reaction was < 1% (Table 4).  The
calorimeter was retested at various liquid volumes."  Again, the change
was < 2% per ml volume change at 0.8 W power.

"Stability and repeatibility are not sufficient verification of the
accuracy of a calorimeter.  A chemical reaction with a known heat effect
should always be used to verify electrical calibration...accuracy...with
point temperature sensors can be significantly affected by inadequate
mixing.  The time constant of mixing must be much smaller than the time
constant of heat transfer to the surroundings, otherwise the rate of
heat transfer measured by point sensors will depend on the location of
the sensors.  Even when mixing appears to be rapid, electrical heating
can produce calibration constants with large errors.  Up to a 40%
different response (i.e. 'excess heat') between the heater and a
chemical reaction was observed in thes study...Problems in 'cold fusion'
calorimeters include inadequate stirring, unstable heat paths, and
inadequate calibration to validate use of point temperature sensors."

The stirrer at low speeds could have created a stable vortex, possibly
generating a Ranque-Hilsch tube effect, with the vortex warmer on its
perimeter and cooler in its center.

Would anyone like this post, or the entire report, to be published in
Infinite Energy or Cold Fusion Times?

As one,   Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 22:22:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16299;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:12:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:12:01 -0800
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:11:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Christmas UP and RUNNING
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971205225315.12678A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"mMg3U2.0.Q-3.koEYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13481
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I say I'm two (2) weeks late on this announcment, but the wife is BeNdInG
my arm to 'tell you all' "GET WITH IT:)" (ouch - ok:}
  The lights ARE UP, the TREE IS UP, (and I STILL need to shop:(
-----------------------
To YOU'all: Wife says: "DO IT NOW!" (if you haven't already:)
-----------------------
Merry Christmas to ALL!! (NOW get to WORK on that X-mas prsent for the
WORLD).... her words!  "Let's SEE it! - For Everybody! MAN, Woman & child"

BEST to You & YOURS   :)
-=se=-

E-mail gift to come later :) (ouch! OK, love! Before Dec 25 I'll send
the e-mail to the user-list here....

Holiday's Best :):):):):):):)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec  5 23:33:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25300;
	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:28:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:28:46 -0800
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:28:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Need Help Quickly
In-Reply-To: <19971205073842.AAA77 HOME>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971206000623.12678B-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Lnunf2.0.9B6.jwFYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13482
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Ed Wall wrote:
-snip-
  >>I was sent to a mountain top FAA long range radar for what was supposed to
  >>be a quick checkout of a system, followed by a commissioning.Then..
-snip-
  >>The best evidence that we have was taken by me using a Fluke 123 Scopemeter
  >>to record Arms and Vrms of each phase of the drive motor at the drive motor
  >>location.  The radar was not operating at the time.  The dual trace showed
  >>current spiking as much as 30% above nominal for a second or so with an
  >>almost flat corresponding voltage plot.  These current anomalies went on for
  >>quite a while with an accompanying audible noise ("growl") whose source was
  >>not apparent.  The noise would typically stop when the current spikes would
  >>stop.  This evidence and another incident was  enough to trigger the
  >>incredible effort that is still ongoing.
  >>
  >>My meager knowledge of motors leads me to believe that the current should be
  >>the same in all phases if the line voltage is equal and that current will
  >>increase only in response to an increasing mechanical load.  What I find in
  >>this motor is a variation in rms current between phase windings of around
  >>20% with much, much less line voltage variation.  Could this be related to
  >>mechanical vibration?  I also note that the current pulses do not exactly
  >>coincide between phases and sometimes a pulse will appear in a phase with no
  >>corresponding pulse in another phase.
-snip-  

Ed, 
  Not sure about your temperture extremes at your location, but the above
'jitters' and "when the 'experts' arrived (tod?) sound like the motor is
the culprit!
---------------
Easy to get, OR NOT, I'd replace the MOTOR (to see difference (scoped))..
IF diff: problem solved! 
 -- you mentioned, the motor was not 'running at the time' -- 
suggest a check out with motor in operation (culprit unit ON).

Myself = Meager knowledge too.
But Chatter / Jiggles = Mechanical ONLY.  Not Electric Circuits~

Good luck, (bad jiggly-chip is 1/1,000,000) Let Us Know!
I vote for worn motor bearings/bushings etc.
wobble/ac input /mAC variable..

-=se=-

----------------
"Nothing has more lives than an error you refuse to correct."

    -O.A Battista, Canadian-born author-scientist.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 01:28:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26965;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:24:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:24:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0aec9ec1693 [12.64.37.2]>
In-Reply-To: <3488C163.5C7B keelynet.com>
References: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net>
 <3.0.1.32.19971205142308.006bb264 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:24:17 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Off topic question for Jerry
Resent-Message-ID: <"eNnGW3.0.Fb6.9dHYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13483
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jerry -

   >  ...everybody is jumping on the millenial catastrophe
   >  scenarios...I've heard 1998 (Dames), 2000
   >  (several), 2004 (Hamel's aliens), 2012 (McKenna
   >  the Mayan calendar and others)...

Like the man said:

"The future's uncertain
and the end is always near."

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 04:56:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23314;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:52:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:52:55 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Stretching the Point
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 05:50:49 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0245$942b3320$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ei1nc2.0.7i5.cgKYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13484
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In the String or Superstring Theories the idea that there are 10 or 26
dimensions in the Universe to deal with, and
any over the standard 4 (x,y,z, and t) curl up and appear as points and thus
it seems that you end up with an energy "string" or such.   :-)

Out of this conjecture there ends up a Planck Length (G*h/c^3)^1/2, a Planck
Time (G*h/c^5)^1/2, a Planck Density c^5/h*G^2, and a Planck Volume out of a
Planck Mass
(hc/G)^1/2.

Where G is the Gravitational Constant "Big G"; 1.667E-11
c is the speed of light 3E8, and h is Planck's Constant 6.626E-34
joule-seconds.

Enough to make you want to "walk the Planck"?

Seems to this feeble mind that comparing 300,000,000
(the velocity of light vector)to all of the tiny vectors of x,y,z and t, you
should end up with something that looks like a string.   :-)

Regards,       Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 08:06:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29760;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:02:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:02:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:01:30 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971206110130_-622375411 mrin39.mx>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Stanley Meyer Update?
Resent-Message-ID: <"0ILM4.0.tG7.fSNYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13485
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

It's been about a year since Norman Horwood updated members of Vortex-L on
the Stanley Meyer affair.

Has anyone heard anything about him since?  Did his investors file a class
action fraud lawsuit against him?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 08:32:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01812;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:29:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:29:58 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:51:56 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: tests of errors in CF calorimetry
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712061053_MC2-2AFB-6147 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"uIG8I2.0.AS.3sNYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13486
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rich Murray posted a chunk of the Jones calorimetry paper and his own
comments. Miles and others have already torn Jones to pieces, so I will not
address this in detail. Here are a few comments:

     The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
     is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
     constant to be large.

Oh really? Which cell, in which experiment? I have never seen that
configuration.


     This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively, interesting, inaccurate, poorly
     understood results. [my language]

Your imagination, Rich.


     Shelton calculates in detail that Dewer flasks can have as much heat
     loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
     which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.  There is usually
     much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads
     and tubes.

Interesting. Shelton went to the trouble to do these calculations even though
nobody uses Dewar flasks. That's a lot of work for a strawman argument. It
reminds me of an exchange between Morrison and Fleischmann, which prompted
Fleischmann's response:

     Douglas Morrison's account contains numerous misleading comments and
     descriptions.  For example, he refers to our calorimeters as "small
     transparent test tubes".  It is hard for us to understand why he chooses
     to make such misleading statements.  In this particular case he could
     equally well have said "glass Dewar vessels silvered in their top
     portion" (which is accurate) rather than "small transparent test tubes"
     (which is not).  Alternatively, if he did not wish to provide an
     accurate description, he  could simply have referred readers to Fig 2 of
     our paper [2].  This type of misrepresentation is a non-trivial matter.
     We have never used calorimeters made of test-tubes since we do not
     believe that such devices can be made to function satisfactorily.


Here is a classic comment from Jones:

     "...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures
     measured at single points in each.  Any thermal gradients present in the
     solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results.  This
     systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat' in
     flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...
     [delta T] . . .

This has been refuted literally *hundreds of times*. Again and again it has
been shown that the usual level of electrolysis in these cells mixes the
electrolyte enough to avoid significant thermal gradients. Furthermore, in
many calorimeters the temperature is measured externally on the cell wall at
different points. The comments about McKubre are mind-boggling. The diagrams
of the calorimeters clearly show a Venturi, mixing beads and other methods
used to ensure that the 60 ml/min cooling water flow will be thoroughly mixed.
Even if extreme thermal gradients could develop in the cell (which we know
cannot be the case), what difference would it make? The calibrations show that
more than 98% of the heat is recovered in the flow no matter what, so how can
thermal gradients within the cell matter?


     . . . the accuracy of which could easily suffer from the presence of
     temperature gradients and unaccounted-for thermal paths...

They *are* accounted for! During calibration!!!


     With the 'cold fusion' type heat-conduction calorimeter constructed in
     this study, when stirring was inadequate, we were able to repeatedly
     produce apparent 'excess heat' (either positive or negative) with a
     well-known chemical reaction, simply by changing the position of the
     heater or temperature sensors."

Yes, and when you tie a canary to a brick and toss both out of second floor
window the bird does not fly. If you make heroic efforts to prevent adequate
stirring you can produce artifacts. Maybe Jones turned electrolysis down a
thousand times lower than anyone else. That's how he "proved" his
recombination-with-nickel hypothesis. CF scientists make sure stirring *is*
adequate, by using sufficiently high levels of electrolysis and by performing
calibration. Or, they have ensured stirring is irrelevant, by measuring the
temperature of the cell wall. Jones knows better of course -- he is just
kidding -- but does Murray actually believe that people have been performing
these experiments for eight years without checking for adequate stirring?!?
This objection was raised in the first weeks after cold fusion was announced,
back in 1989. Pons immediately proved it is a non-issue, but letting a few
drops of food coloring fall into an electrolysis cell in front of the
television cameras. The fluid mixed instantly. Countless others, including me,
have checked for this using multiple thermocouples, external thermocouples,
mixers, gentle shaking of vessel, and every other conceivable method.


     Would anyone like this post, or the entire report, to be published in
     Infinite Energy or Cold Fusion Times?

Infinite Energy will not publish it for two reasons:

1. As Murray text shows, it says "copyright 1997 Elsevier Science B.V."
2. It has no merit.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 09:47:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12005;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:42:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:42:39 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <19971206174112.14322.qmail hotmail.com>
X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.107]
From: "Peter Aldo" <prospector85 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 09:41:12 PST
Resent-Message-ID: <"p2-QL.0.Ux2.AwOYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13487
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



>From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Dec  5 21:19:43 1997
>Received: (from smartlst localhost)
>	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04012;
>	Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:15:19 -0800 (PST)
>Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:15:19 -0800 (PST)
>Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:14:24 -0800 (PST)
>Message-Id: <199712060514.VAA00796 germany.it.earthlink.net>
>X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: Minato's PPM Update
>Resent-Message-ID: <"jZUsP1.0.c-.bzDYq" mx2>
>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13477
>X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Precedence: list
>Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
>
>Rick -
>
>>Don't they always.  ;)
>>
>>Hopeful but cautious,
>
>A couple of differences this time.  Mr. Minato welcomes visitors to see 
the
>different magnet/EM over-unity units, as well as the self-rotating, 
self
>starting, all permanent magnet rotor/stator, bicycle wheel unit. 
>
>Anyone on this list near Tokyo that can take a look at this and report 
back?
>:-)
>
>Michael -
>
>
>
Hello Michael and all,
We have a Japanese client visiting where I work. I want to ask him if he 
ever heard of this motor and maybe he can check it out. Do you have the 
address of Mr. Minato?

Peter Aldo

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 11:05:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07831;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:03:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:03:48 -0800
Message-ID: <348998C1.6643 mail.teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:26:09 -0800
From: Michael McCoy <mrm teleport.com>
Reply-To: mrm teleport.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic question for Jerry
References: <199712050406.UAA15011 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971205142308.006bb264@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <3488C163.5C7B@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3YHdM.0.Bw1.I6QYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13488
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:
> 
> Hi John W.!
> 
> With regard to my tongue-in-cheek comment about the 'earth ending in
> 1998'...that was in reference to a claim made by remote viewer Ed Dames
> on the Art Bell show.....everybody is jumping on the millenial
> catastrophe scenarios...I've heard 1998 (Dames), 2000 (several), 2004
> (Hamel's aliens), 2012 (McKenna the Mayan calendar and others)...
> --
>                Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
>         http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>        Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>      KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
I would suggest anybody interested in this to read the following books:
Genisis, the First book of Revelations, by David Woods and Geneset,
Target Earth, by David Woods and Ian Campbell where it is discussed this
very scenario, even possibly predicted by the painter Nicolas Poussin
and the Novelist Jules Verne.  You will need to read both books,
starting with Genisis.  Another Book I am reading which I have not
finished is:    Fingerprints of the Gods, by Graham Hancock, which seems
to be where the gist of the topic of the book leads.  Michael

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 12:29:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17386;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:17:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:17:10 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:17:05 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ungarbled sono story
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971206121520.26433C-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"-UkJt.0.aF4.5BRYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13489
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

forwarded from Jim Choate, tesla ssz.com (sci hobbyist list)

PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 349 December 3, 1997   
by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein

MOST INTENSE MANMADE SOUND.  The production of sound
waves with 1600 times more energy per unit volume than
previously achieved has been announced by researchers at this
week's meeting of the Acoustical Society of America in San Diego,
opening up possible new uses for sound in science and technology.
Sound waves, patterns of compression and expansion in a gas such
as air, are often created and studied in closed or semi-closed
containers called cavities.  In the past, attempts to make such sound
waves louder (by adding more sound energy into the cavity) would
fail beyond a certain point because additional energy would merely
lead to the formation of a shock wave which would quickly
dissipate the energy as heat.  Until the late 1980s, researchers
thought shock-wave formation was inevitable.  In a new technique
called "resonant macrosonic synthesis," Tim Lucas and colleagues
at MacroSonix Corporation in Virginia have built cavities with
special shapes (horns, bulbs, cones) each tailored to promote certain
distinct modes of sound vibration which combine in such a way as
to inhibit the creation of shock waves, allowing sound waves of
unprecedented energy density to build up.  Filling the containers
with gas, and vibrating them to generate sound waves inside, the
researchers produced sound waves with oscillating pressures up to
500 pounds per square inch. The first technological application for
these powerful sound waves will be in an "acoustic compressor"
which uses sound rather than moving parts to compress gas inside
refrigerators and air conditioners. (Images at
www.aip.org/physnews/graphics)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 12:59:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21209;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:50:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:50:43 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: windski owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:50:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Tony Rusi <windski eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ungarbled sono story
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971206121520.26433C-100000 eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971206124947.1416B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"2ALtX1.0.JB5.YgRYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13490
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

i hope most of this energy is beyond the range of human hearing.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 13:06:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05378;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:59:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:59:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v0153050bb0af6b8ae889 [199.237.131.235]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:01:09 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
Resent-Message-ID: <"oiR5M1.0.yJ1.DpRYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13491
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 11:01 AM 12/6/97, Tstolper aol.com wrote:
>It's been about a year since Norman Horwood updated members of Vortex-L on
>the Stanley Meyer affair.
>
>Has anyone heard anything about him since?  Did his investors file a class
>action fraud lawsuit against him?
>
>Tom Stolper


Yes, this would be interesting to hear about.

For those not aware of the background on this I have digested some of the
more interesting posts from vortex.  Note especially the 12:03 PM 12/22/96
post by Norman Horwood about Meyer being found guilty of "gross and
egregious fraud".


At 10:47 AM 10/29/96, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Vortexians,
>
>If any of you are within shouting distance of Fayette County, Ohio, can you
>please contact the Court of Common Plea there and confirm the outcome of case
>No: 93CVH292 determined on 10 Sept. this year. His Honor WJ Corzine presiding.
>The Notary Public, TL Speirs.
>
>The defendant was Stanley Meyer and the plaintiff one of his victims.
>
>The court found that Meyer was guilty of contravening section 191, namely
>"Fraud
>and Deceit" and was required to repay $25,000 to the plaintiff and to meet
>their
>costs of $12,500.
>
>The clincher was that the court forced him to run one of his "fuel cells" in
>court in the presence of independent experts who actually MEASURED the input
>energy and compared that with the output of electrolysed gases.  The result was
>that the output was what could be expected from normal electrolysis and no more
>or less.
>
>This could be the start of an avalanche of court claims which should finish
>Meyer's game for good, and I know of one victim, not far from here who is
>currently taking counsel's advice to recover some $450,000 from him for the
>useless expense he put them to in '93/94.
>
>This information has come to me just in time to advise a British charity
>who are
>in the act of inviting Meyer to head up a symposium in the House of Lords in
>London this week to promote his water fuel cell and the dune buggy.  The
>symposium was organized by a great old man, the late Admiral Sir Anthony
>Griffin, who died last week, and who was taken, hook - line & sinker by Meyer,
>and who spent a fortune promoting those dud products for him, all in the
>name of
>environmental protection.
>
>Comments?      Norman

At 12:03 PM 12/22/96, Norman Horwood wrote:
>The London "Express on Sunday", one of the better tabloids, has today virtually
>copied the article from the Sunday Times of a couple of weeks ago, stating that
>Stanley Meyer has been found guilty in an Ohio court of "gross and egregious
>fraud" by selling dealerships in his "water fuel cell".  I understand that
>Meyer
>has also formally written to the British Press Complaints Board about the S.T.
>article, so the Express can expect some flak as well.
>
>I can say that my friends here have received threats of litigation from
>Meyer if
>they fail to publish his denial of guilt. However I have failed to find any
>signs of him having filed an appeal against the judgment, either at the County
>Court or the State High Court levels.
>
>Even at this stage I would be glad to hear of anyone who has managed to
>replicate his cell's supposed performance based on his published patents and
>other literature.
>
>Norman


At 7:51 AM 2/18/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Dear Vortexians,
>
>I have just received by express Fedex a long rambling document from Meyer
>purporting to validate his water fuel cell process, and threatening me
>with jail
>if I don't publish the whole thing to the whole world.  Among the
>documents is a
>copy of a letter to Meyer, dated Dec.14, 96, signed by Dr H A Nieper,
>President,
>The German Association of Vacuum Field Energy.
>
>I quote:
>
>        "I may also attract your attention to the last two Brochores [sic]
>[among those enclosed] of this association, Nos. 33 and 34, in which I refer to
>the tested overunity effect of your technology.  These will be available as
>copies from the A.Keith Brewer Sc. Library. ( See enclosure _) [sic]
>
>We are now preparing for the EXPO 2000 World exhibition in Hanover, June thru
>October, 2000.
>
>We will present there the modalities of the conversion of Vacuum Field
>Energy on
>which also your procedure is based on [sic].  You are highly welcomed to
>present
>your technology there, along with others."
>
>Dr H A Nieper, Zur Muhle 11, D-30916 Isernhagen, Germany   Telefax (05 11)
>31 84
>17
>
>Does any one know of the above organisation or its President, and what is its
>standing?
>
>Norman


At 6:47 PM 2/18/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Remi,
>
>>> Sorry if I appear nosy, but how can he threaten you if you won't publish
>his work? <<
>
>Its not that he wants me to publish his work as such.  He wants me to publicly
>apologise for suggesting that his water fuel cell might not be genuine, and to
>circulate to all my contacts his version of events surrounding the various
>correspondence and discussions of his devices for the last 4 years.
>
>It seems that he is lurking on this list and is trying to frighten off any
>criticism of his system.
>
>Norman


At 4:05 PM 3/1/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>As I reported earlier, I wrote to Hans Nieper asking whether he had any
>positive
>information re: the Meyer water fuel cell, after he had been quoted to me by
>Meyer as a reference to support the validity his claims.
>
>I have received a very detailed response from Dr Nieper with many copies of
>correspondence between him and others as well as copies of articles
>etc.(some in
>German).  In a nutshell he has never been to Meyer's workshop in Ohio and has
>not witnessed the actual devices other than via the video recordings
>supplied by
>Meyer.  I gather this includes the dune-buggy supposedly running on a WFC but
>apparently with some hydrocarbon input as well.
>
>However he makes a statement to the effect that Lewis Nasa, of Cleveland has
>certified the Meyer water fuel cell as 3 times over-unity, and that the cell
>runs cool as the H is generated.
>
>Dr Nieper says that he will be in the States at Temple University, Phila, on
>March 17 and will be showing the ML converter running ou at a constant 3 kW
>indefinitely.  Is it possible that Hal Puthoff will also be there and can
>report
>back to Vortex?  I think that the sponsors of this event are Crestview
>Aerospace
>Corp., of Crestview, Florida, and that Meyer may well be demonstrating there as
>well.
>
>I'm confused, so any enlightenment as to who is Lewis Nasa and what is going on
>at Temple University will be appreciated.
>
>Norman


At 1:12 PM 3/1/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>If you look at the Volts and Amperes going into a cell to get Hydrogen and
>Oxygen off, then calculate the heat of the potassium atoms recombining at
>the cathode and giving off hydrogen after the ions have picked up
>their electrons; 2 K +  2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2.
>
>Then two hydroxyls (OH) recombining at the anode: 2 OH = H2O + 1/2 O2, and
>plug in the recombining energy of the H2 + 1/2 O2 gasses you should come out
>with a thermodynamic "squeaker" that is just short of 3 times the energy put
>into the electrical energy at the power plant. Or if you use a battery or
>hand cranked generator, the same thing.
>
>No free energy, just a little leeway in thermodynamics. A great "heat pump"
>as Larry Wharton and Robin van Spaandonk said.
>
>Regards, Frederick

At 4:56 AM 3/2/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Frederick,
[snip]
>
>This would be fine if the Meyer cell contained KOH or any other electrolyte.
>Unfortunately it is supposed to work better with distilled water - in fact the
>addition of ions will kill the action - as was demonstrated in the court
>"proof"
>of fraud when the expert tipped in some NaCl and the thing effectively shorted
>out.  So the "heat pump" theory goes down the plug-hole.
>
>Norman

At 2:46 AM 3/2/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>Vortexians:
>
>I reread the article by John O'M Bockris in issue #10 of IE relating to his
>thoughts on the Stanley Meyer device, and the Szklarczyk and Bockris work on
>pure water in 1987.
>
>Since the inception of the hypothesis of the presence of Negative-Positive
>electrical particle pairs of mass substantially below that of
>electron-positron pairs I have concluded that these particles have an
>affinity for the highly polar water molecule and can exist attached to the
>them without annihilation.
>
>The well known phenomenon of "autoionization" of water seems to go against
>reason when you consider that the ionization energy for water is about 12
>electron volts.
>
>The proposed light pairs of Me/137, Me/137^2, or Me/137^3 with the same +/-
>charge as electrons can according to accepted physics "orbit" a proton or
>deuteron (because of the relativistic mass increase and near light speed
>velocities that can be attained)and make a very small neutral hydrogen atom
>that can interact with a nucleus and effect nuclear reactions.
>
>The Bockris article tends to show some support of the thought that high
>field intensities can either pull these particles off the water molecules or
>cause a drag effect if the particles "detach" from the water molecules etc.
>
>This would explain why introduction of ionic species "shorts out" the cells
>at the required field levels.
>
>I guess only time will tell if the proposed particles will be isolated and
>will explain most of the "Cold Fusion" phenomena.
>
>Regards,   Frederick


At 7:44 AM 3/2/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Frederick,
>
>>> Do you have a feel for the field strength across a cell
>and the magnitude of the currents involved? <<
>
>Well,  trying to remember the work I did over many weeks with the cells I made
>to Meyer's design,  the gap between the outer cylinder and the inner was 0.5mm.
>and the dia. 15mm and length 250mm.   I used distilled water as supplied for
>battery topping by the local pharmacy.
>
>The voltage varied between 10k and 20k pulsed sq.wave dc which I got from
>a high
>duty car ignition coil fed from a 100W audio transformer at frequencies ranging
>from 5kHz to 25 kHz.
>
>There were variable inductors and resistors in series whose values escape me
>now, but the aim was to induce resonance in the cell, but I never achieved that
>condition.  I put that down to the very variable impedance and capacitance of
>the cell as H & O bubbles came off the electrodes.
>
>Norman


At 5:58 PM 3/3/97, Norman Horwood wrote:
>Tom,
>
>>> I would be surprised if anyone at NASA/Lewis had ever tested a Meyer water
>fuel cell, and absolutely astonished if anyone there had ever certified it as
>three times over unity.
>
>Congratulations on the work that you have done in covering the Stanley Meyer
>affair.
>
>Tom Stolper <<
>
>I've faxed the head honcho at Lewis with a request that they confirm or deny
>that they have tested a Meyer cell.  See what transpires.   Fun innit!
>
>Norman

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 13:47:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28584;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:43:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:43:29 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v0300780eb0af72733dec [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:47:55 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
Resent-Message-ID: <"a_cf91.0.S-6._RSYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13492
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This particular concept of a colliding beam fusion reactor has been
developed over the last few years by Norman Rostoker, one of the creative
early fusion researchers.  He gave a seminar on this concept at General
Atomics about 3 years ago, when his ideas were still preliminary.  I have
not read or heard anything recently, though I was aware that Rostoker and
others are trying to develop the theoretical basis for the concept.  BTW,
'colliding beam' here refers, not to linear beams as one might think, but
to ions circulating approximately circularly in a magnetic field.  The H
and B ion orbits are to be approximately the same (if the concept has not
changed), but the H ions move much faster and collide with the B ions from
behind.

Any 'colliding beam' fusion system must overcome one fundamental problem:
the ions are very, very, very much more likely to be repulsed by their
mutual repulsive Coulomb electric field and their orbits scattered (read
'knocked out of the beam') than to undergo a fusion reaction.  I do not
know whether the new concept can overcome this problem or not.  Even if it
is possible ideally, plasmas are usually so full of instabilities and
turbulence that idealized expectations are seldom met.  The kind of
magnetic 'field-reversed configuration' plasma to be used is under studied
and poorly understood.  However, Rostoker is one of the world's leading
experts on them, and he is clever, too.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 14:38:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15853;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:35:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:35:24 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712062234.QAA05254 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
In-Reply-To: <v0300780eb0af72733dec [198.133.146.230]> from "Schaffer@gav.gat.com" at "Dec 6, 97 01:47:55 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:34:23 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"WcuS2.0.at3.eCTYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13493
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael J. Schaffer wrote:
> Any 'colliding beam' fusion system must overcome one fundamental problem:
> the ions are very, very, very much more likely to be repulsed by their
> mutual repulsive Coulomb electric field and their orbits scattered (read
> 'knocked out of the beam') than to undergo a fusion reaction.  I do not
> know whether the new concept can overcome this problem or not.

The field reversed configuration has a magnetic field gradient that gets
stronger toward the outer edges, thus causing any eccentric orbits to
curve more quickly back into the inner space.

I would guess that the average "orbit" involves many interactions (near
misses, etc) that results in an "average" path.   Eccentricies, I'd guess,
would be short lived due to this "noise" averaging of multiple interactions.

> Even if it is possible ideally, plasmas are usually so full of
> instabilities and turbulence that idealized expectations are seldom met.

In their 1993 paper that is available at their web site, they admit up
front that there are instabilitises to be reckoned with, but they know
of two and have designed accordingly.

And this isn't a purely random plasma, since the paths are orbital in
nature.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 15:27:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21286;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "Alfred W Horne" <shorty greatlakes.net>
Cc: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: The Capacitance of Space and  Circular String Particles
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:04:16 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd029b$4685c440$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"en5Nx3.0.HC5.CqTYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13494
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The Capacitance of space (permittivity):
eo = 8.84E-12 Farad/meter or coulomb/newton-meter^2
or coulomb/joule-meter, implies an area-less capacitance.

For a "physical vacuum capacitor" C = 8.84E-12 x area/s so
that as the spacing s gets smaller C increases. On the other hand for a
plateless vacuum, C = eo x length only.

To arrive at the energy w for any particle:

w = .5q^2/2(pi)r x eo  or .5q^2/C. If you know the rest energy w of any
particle the "radius" r
= .5q^2/2(pi)x w x eo

Interestingly, for a capacitor w = .5 CV^2 = .5q^2/C and
C = eo x length, which supports the idea that a particle
is a circular "energy string" with length only, or a diameter so small that
it seems to be a circular string having no dimensions other than length,
2(pi)r.

Strangely the "shorter" the string the more energy the
particles have. Is that why the proposed Super Collider
was trying to get them down to the "Planck Radius" of
E-35 meters (2.3E7 Joule or about 1.438E14 TEV!)? :-)

This will be possible for 4 or 5 dimensional space (x,y,z,t,n) that "folds"
according to our frame of reference. So they say.   :-)

>From this, it looks like particles may be just circular strings of energy w
= .5 CV^2 and the shorter the string the smaller C but V or V^2 is very
large.

And since the charge +/- q = CV the charge +/- on a particle is constant no
matter what it's energy is.

The +/- is just a matter of phase of  oscillation or
direction of energy flow along the "string" like a pulse moving down a
two-wire transmission line with impedance of 377 ohms at the speed of light
c.

The spin of a particle mvr = n x h/2(pi)indicates that the
mass-pulse is moving at 137 c. This is a phase velocity
phenomenon, again probably due to a relativistic quirk.

By no strange coincidence the velocity of the ground state
Bohr electron is c/137 the "group velocity" of a wave on a transmission
line.   :-)

One might consider particles as photons (open strings)that
 were propagating at c, that collided with something
and got bent into two circular strings-particles + and - and the energy is
still circling at c like someone trying to do a four-minute mile in the
closet.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 15:31:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23364;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:29:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:29:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 97 18:37:27 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "VORTEX" <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"D57yU3.0.zi5.A_TYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13495
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>It's been about a year since Norman Horwood updated members of Vortex-L on
>the Stanley Meyer affair.
>
>Has anyone heard anything about him since?
I challenged Meyer publicly at the Academy for New Energy Conference in 
Denver last April. He gave complete BS arguments as to why he would not 
allow any "black box" testing of his device. I told him that we did not 
need to see the innards of his electronics, just do a performance test. 
He refused. He is a complete fruitcake if he has anything at all. If he 
does not have an O/U process, then, of course, he is a fraud. It is 
impossible to tell which category he is in. There is too much evidence 
now for O/U with a/c input to dismiss him entirely.

I will try to get the exact words from our exchange and post them here. 
They were partially captured on tape. Then there was an altercation -- 
near physical confrontation in the corridor after his lecture. I will try 
to reconstruct that too. We'll put it all in IE when we can -- I have 
just not had the time or space for such dregs as Meyer.

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 16:18:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29234;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:13:38 -0800 (PST)
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <3489E9F9.182D math.ucla.edu>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 16:12:41 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
References: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"bdoYv.0.h87.leUYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13496
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

E.F. Mallove wrote:
> 
> There is too much evidence
> now for O/U with a/c input to dismiss him [Meyer] entirely.
> 

Huh? There is *NO* scientificly validated evidence for O/U 
performance of anything, as far as I know.By evidence, you
must mean claims and anecdotes. I extrapolate from such
things about as far as I could throw Meyer.


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 16:23:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18476;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:19:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:19:34 -0800
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:16:39 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: Vortex Mail <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199712061918_MC2-2B02-F91E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"8V-oe1.0.bW4.LkUYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13497
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Tom,

>> It's been about a year since Norman Horwood updated members of Vortex-L
on
the Stanley Meyer affair.

Has anyone heard anything about him since?  Did his investors file a class
action fraud lawsuit against him?

Tom Stolper <<

Not a dickie-bird as they say here.   He's either in jail or floating about
Europe persuading gullible "investors" to part with their hard-earned cash
for a "distributorship".

Have no fear - if I hear anything y'all be the 1st to be told.

Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 16:29:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19659;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:27:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:27:51 -0800
Message-ID: <348A09CD.5E19 keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 18:28:29 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
References: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"tdx4N1.0._o4.6sUYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13498
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

I did not particularly want to say this in a public forum, but since Gene 
opened the door....

I too was at the ISNE conference in Denver and happened on Stanley Meyer 
in the elevator and in the main lobby hall.  

I asked him how his spark plug prototype efforts were going and he said 
it was still under development. A couple of years back, he claimed to 
have a spark plug that would fit in any automobile engine and allow the 
owner to run water immediately, without further modification.

I said it would really be a coup if he could drive his water powered car 
to the conference as a demonstration but he said that was not possible.

I asked him if he would have any products or working units for sale 
anywhere in the near future and he seemed annoyed.  He replied that 
everything he had was still under development.

His idea of fracturing water is so Keelyesque since it is nearly a direct 
duplication of Keely's claim that water dissociates at 42.8khz.

A local friend, Dan Haley went to see Meyer about 10 years ago, with a 
couple of his friends.  He came back very disappointed, saying that Meyer 
would not demonstrate the water powered car.  He said the main focus was 
to try to get each of his group to purchase a 'franchise fee' to sell any 
Meyer products WHEN they came out.  That fee was $5,000.

Dennis Lee uses the same scam, but he calls it a partnership. When he was 
in Dallas, he did this 4 hour series of demonstrations using compressed 
air, saying it was analogous to his thermodynamic system that would 
normally use freon or water to heat your house and provide electricity.  
He charges $10,000 for one of these partnerships which would allow you to 
be a distributor for his products WHEN they come to market.

The key word here is WHEN.  This is an open-ended agreement where the 
claimant is covering their anticipated failures, counting on the greed of 
the investors to be patient, trusting that something will EVENTUALLY come 
out.  I remember Dennis back in 1989, so that's 8 years and he'd been 
around about 10 years before that, so 18 years for Lee.  I believe Meyer 
has been around since the late 70's, so that's about 18 years also.

And to my knowledge, neither of them has ever demonstrated a working 
device that others have been allowed to inspect.  Nor have either of them 
provided sufficient information to allow independent duplication of their 
devices.

We do have a couple in our Roundtable group here in Dallas, the Dawsons, 
who claim they bought a solar heater arrangement from Lee for about 
$5,000 and they said it did provide hot water, period.  Nothing special 
about it, one or more black water-filled panels on the roof, exposed to 
the sun and a well-insulated storage tank to hold the recirculated, 
heated water, hardly worth $5000 as advanced technology.

Lee is very charismatic and invokes, God, Mom, apple pie and patriotism 
in his presentations...this is usually after his demonstrations to keep 
people from thinking about what they saw.  What I saw was so disgusting 
because most people just bought it lock, stock and barrel, then let 
themselves be distracted with the irrelevant diatribe.  3 of our group 
with me in the lead, walked out shaking our heads when we saw the 
direction...seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 18:38:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00668;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:32:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:32:59 -0800
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:34:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Test , ignore
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206183256.16194A-101000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1910929790-734185686-881462092=:16194"
Resent-Message-ID: <"nI9i41.0.MA.QhWYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13499
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--1910929790-734185686-881462092=:16194
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


test

--1910929790-734185686-881462092=:16194
Content-Type: APPLICATION/octet-stream; name="scope_a.com"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206183452.16194B victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Description: 
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--1910929790-734185686-881462092=:16194--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 19:23:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04662;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:17:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:17:01 -0800
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:18:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FTL signalling experiment/method (2 of 2)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191102.18230C-101000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1910929790-1983336861-881464599=:18230"
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191834.18230G victor1.mscomm.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"3h5QY3.0.l81.hKXYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13501
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--1910929790-1983336861-881464599=:18230
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191834.18230H victor1.mscomm.com>



Attachment "scope_a.com" (download to Dos file , enter directory in dos
and type "scope_a" [Enter]

This screen depicts waveforms resulting from experiment described and
illiustrated in "FTL signalling experimen/method (1 of 2)" 

Jim Ostrowski

--1910929790-1983336861-881464599=:18230
Content-Type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; NAME="scope_a.com"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191638.18230D victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Description: 
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--1910929790-1983336861-881464599=:18230--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 19:24:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20770;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:17:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:17:12 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:18:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FTL signalling experiment/method (1 of 2)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206190349.18230A-101000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1910929790-2046199975-881464232=:18230"
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191707.18230E victor1.mscomm.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"jKoD42.0.S45.tKXYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13500
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

--1910929790-2046199975-881464232=:18230
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191707.18230F victor1.mscomm.com>


                           (c) 1997 Jim Ostrowski


    Netlist:

    C1 - (extended capacitor)

    Physical :

    75  meter  length  RG59/U (foam) transmission line wound in single turn
    loop

    Measured capacitance - 4.16 nf

    ----------------------

    L1 - Air core inductor

    Physical :

    41  turns  #32  enameled magnet wire .5" o.d. x 1.5"l epoxy - stiffened
    tube

    Measured inductance: 6.1 uh


    -----------------------

    R1 - 27 ohm 1 watt resistor

    -----------------------

    S1 - carrier generator   1.33 mhz

    S2 - modulation generator   666.67 khz  synced with S1

    -----------------------

    Scope:

    Heath model 4800 50 mhz digital storage/memory verified  and  monitored
    with Sencore model SC 3100 100 mhz analog

    errata:

    Heath  digital  shows  considerable  waveform distortion not visible on
    Sencore analog, probably due to recursive monitoring  (equivalent  time
    sampling) of  Heath  unit  .  Voltage  peaks  and  sero  crossings time
    coincident on both units , however.

    Y1 = Ch1
    Y2 = Ch2  on diagram

    Y1 probe - x10
    Y2 probe - direct

    Control  experiment  was  performed to verify ability of both scopes to
    detect  and  quantify  an  expected  phase  shift(delay)  .    (Control
    experiment description available on separate sheet)

    -----------------------

    Theoretical Basis of Experiment :

    "General Relativity and Matter"  Chapter 5  "The Electromagnetic  Field
    Equations " Mendel Sachs , Professor , University of Buffalo (NY)

    "Interaction  with  the Absorber as the Mechanism of Radiation" Wheeler
    and Feynman - Reviews of Modern Physics ,April - July 1945

    (relevant text of Sach's work reprinted below):

                           ------ooooooo-------

    From "General Relativity and Matter"  Chapter  5  "The  Electromagnetic
    Field Equations" page 101 paragraph 3-

    "....there  is  a technical argument to support the delayed action at a
    distance concept according  to  the  full  meaning  of  the  theory  of
    relativity.  This  is  the  argument  that  the principle of relativity
    requires the elemantarity of the interaction relation, rather than  the
    elementarity  of the particle of matter. The objectivity of the laws of
    nature  [covariance]  requires  that  the  full  description   of   the
    interaction   should   be  should  be  independent  of  whether  it  is
    represented from the frame of reference of _one_ of the participants  -
    say the `emitter' or that of the other - the `absorber'. Thus to remain
    fully   covariant   the   names   `emitter'   and  `absorber'  must  be
    interchangeable without altering the  total  objective  description  of
    the   interaction   relation.   In  this  case  ,  the  electromagnetic
    interaction between emitter and absorber must also  be  invariant  with
    respect to interchanging the `retarded' and `advanced' solutions of the
    field  equations  .  This  implies  that  the  solutions  of  the field
    equations must be experessible  as  a  symetric  sum  of  retarded  and
    advanced solutions..."

    "...in  particle  theories  , the admission of the `advanced' solutions
    seems to violate causality  -implying  that  the  effect  precedes  the
    cause.  But  this  implication  is  model dependent as it is based on a
    particular view of the system in terms  of  absolute  particles,  where
    time  also  has an absolute unidirectional meaning. The latter holds in
    classical, nonrelativistic theories. But in relativity theory the  time
    parameter  is  only  a  subjective element in the description. That is,
    from the reference frame of the emitter , the absorber must respond  to
    it  at some time _later than_ the emission of it's signal. On the other
    hand, either end of the interaction may be called the  emitter  without
    altering  the overall mathematical description of the interaction. Thus
    , the view one must take of the interaction in this theory , if we  are
    to  represent it in terms of the names `emitter' and `absorber' , is in
    terms of the SIMULTANEOUS [emphasis added - j.o.] emissions of  signals
    from  each  end  of  a mutual interaction , later to be absorbed by the
    `other end'. That is , the terms `later' and `earlier' are only defined
    subjectively , depending on which part of an interaction one refers  to
    as  emitter  or  absorber.  This follows from the feature of relativity
    that there is no absolute time measure , as there would be in classical
    physics, where one might identify a time  sequence  with  the  absolute
    ordering of `cause' and `effect'."

     Sachs offers (after much equation solving) the following profound (when
    you think about it) example :

     "Consider  ,  for  example  ,  the description of the transmission of
     radio signals . In the conventional way of discussing it one would say
     that a radio antenna emits a signal at the time t , and at  the  later
     time  t+R/c  a receiving antenna R cm away , receives the signal . The
     latter reception is said  to  be  independent  of  the  state  of  the
     emitting antenna , at the later time. On the other hand the elementary
     interaction approach  must  _in  principle_  consider both the emitting
     antenna  and  the  absorbing  antenna  in  terms  of   their   _mutual
     influence_.  Here, one _may not_ ignore the reaction of the emitter to
     the absorber, as is done conventionally."


    "  Nevertheless,  in practical terms the coupling between an individual
    radio set (or a city full of radio sets!) is sufficiently  weak  to  be
    approximated  by the solutions to the field equations that describe the
    uncoupled situation.." (however) , in the high energy limit one may not
    ignore this influence.  "


    J.O.




--1910929790-2046199975-881464232=:18230
Content-Type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; NAME="setup_a.com"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64
Content-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206191032.18230B victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Description: 
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--1910929790-2046199975-881464232=:18230--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 19:25:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05916;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:23:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:23:28 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:20:46 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd029d$94f44780$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"5cBzI1.0.CS1.kQXYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13502
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor


>Michael J. Schaffer wrote:
>> Any 'colliding beam' fusion system must overcome one fundamental problem:
>> the ions are very, very, very much more likely to be repulsed by their
>> mutual repulsive Coulomb electric field and their orbits scattered (read
>> 'knocked out of the beam') than to undergo a fusion reaction.  I do not
>> know whether the new concept can overcome this problem or not.
>
>The field reversed configuration has a magnetic field gradient that gets
>stronger toward the outer edges, thus causing any eccentric orbits to
>curve more quickly back into the inner space.
>
>I would guess that the average "orbit" involves many interactions (near
>misses, etc) that results in an "average" path.   Eccentricies, I'd guess,
>would be short lived due to this "noise" averaging of multiple
interactions.
>
>> Even if it is possible ideally, plasmas are usually so full of
>> instabilities and turbulence that idealized expectations are seldom met.
>
>In their 1993 paper that is available at their web site, they admit up
>front that there are instabilitises to be reckoned with, but they know
>of two and have designed accordingly.
>
>And this isn't a purely random plasma, since the paths are orbital in
>nature.


The coulomb repulsion between a H (hydrogen) ion and a B (boron) ion is;
Z1*Z2*k*q^2/r^2

at one fermi (1.0E-15 meters) the repulsive
force between H and B ions is 1.15E3 newtons
or about 258 pounds, for particles that weigh
about 1.83E-26 pounds. Them suckers are gonna have to sneak up fast!    :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>--
> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 22:08:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05260;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:00:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:00:08 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:59:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712070559.VAA21262 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Minato Bicycle Wheel [fwd]
Resent-Message-ID: <"yJs9h.0.6I1.bjZYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13503
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts:

Here is the reply I received from the http://japan.co.jp/stag/minphot.html
referenced on KeelyNet to my inquiry.

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 16:13:38 +0900

Subject: Re: Minato Bicycle Wheel

Dear Michael,

Thanks for your mail regarding Minato's Rotation Aparatus.  My apologies
for the slight delay in replying.

I should explain that the address to which you sent your email is that of a
science group called STAG (Science and Technology Action Group).  The group
STAG is run by foreign scientists who are living in Japan with the aim of
distrubuting information between themselves, improving links between Japan
and the UK (and elsewhere) and of course to having the chance to socialize.
The group holds meetings every couple of months and invites speakers to
talk on interesting or topical subjects.  Mr. Minato is not involved in the
group, but was kind enough to present a lecture about his rotation machine
at one of our meetings.  Hence the photos on our web page.

Unfortunately, I don't have much more information about Mr. Minato's
Rotation Aparatus, but the following Web page is useful, and also contains
details of the patents Mr. Minato has published.
  
     http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/curtis.htm

I will also search out his email address so that you can contact him
directly.   I will try and let you have it in a couple of days.

I hope my comments are useful.  Thanks again for your mail.

Regards,

    David Heard.

Vice Chairman, STAG.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec  6 22:19:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06428;
	Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Logajan" <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Subject: The Bottom Line
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:15:06 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd02d7$76ba7fc0$d393410c default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"7RLt8.0.La1.azZYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13504
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

There is little doubt that the heavier Fermions-Leptons are integral
multiples of the rest energy-mass Ee or Me of the electron;
Mx = n*Ee/alpha^n'  or, Mx = n*Me/alpha^n'.

Easy to look up in cookbook particle physics data.

By the same token there should be particle pair production that yield
particles of energy;
Mx = n*Ee*alpha^n'  or mass Mx = n*Me*alpha^n',
most likely down to a fraction of an ev.

Roughly, 3730 ev, 27.2 ev , and 0.2 ev.

If String-Superstring theory holds up there the circularized strings get too
unstable at 0.5 ev or less.

Now can one find them?   :-)

Regards,       Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 03:48:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29823;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:45:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:45:19 -0800
Sender: jack mail2.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <348A7C46.776BF5B0 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 05:36:54 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method (1 of 2)
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971206190349.18230A-101000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pMEEm1.0.uH7.EneYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13505
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jim,

Is the faster than light signalling experiment
discussed in the Corridor Light Experiment thread?
If not, I'm missing something; and I would appreciate
it if you would repost the original description
of the FTL experiment.

Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 04:18:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00480;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:14:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:14:43 -0800
Sender: jack mail2.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <348A834E.26793589 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 06:06:54 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <v01530501b0a67e61118e [199.237.131.233]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OIYkU.0.Q7.oCfYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13506
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
 "Great care would have to be used to gather lots of data
 points and analyse to be sure the swing dynamics are OK.
 Just measuring the pendulum period and deflection
 doesn't seem to me to cut it."
 
 Hi Horace,
 
 Thanks for the suggestions.  The instruction sheet for
 setting up has just arrived from Germany, and I'm
 planning a set of "roughing in" runs.  Some how I have
 to attach a thermometer to at least one of the big lead balls.
 I'm puzzled by your statement above:
 
 "Just measuring the pendulum period and deflection
 doesn't seem to me to cut it."
 
 What else would you suggest I measure?
 
 Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 05:16:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27031;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:13:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:13:17 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "John Logajan" <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Subject: Is t' the 5th dimension?
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:10:10 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0311$72a22c00$d393410c default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"-T5L_1.0.Hc6.g3gYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13507
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Hmmm, before I talk myself out of it, there should be a time associated with
phase velocity, c/alpha and such.

Phase velocity shows up in calculating spin
(mvr = n*h/2(pi) and on many wave-boundary interactions such as transmission
lines and waveguides or water waves coming up to the beach etc.

If the velocity is "real", shouldn't the time t'
be "real" also?

The 5th dimension that "curls" space?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 06:40:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03446;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:37:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:37:19 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b064c55a72 [199.237.131.223]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:38:32 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"0w1941.0.ir.RIhYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13508
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:06 AM 12/7/97, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> "Great care would have to be used to gather lots of data
> points and analyse to be sure the swing dynamics are OK.
> Just measuring the pendulum period and deflection
> doesn't seem to me to cut it."
>
> Hi Horace,
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.  The instruction sheet for
> setting up has just arrived from Germany, and I'm
> planning a set of "roughing in" runs.  Some how I have
> to attach a thermometer to at least one of the big lead balls.
> I'm puzzled by your statement above:
>
> "Just measuring the pendulum period and deflection
> doesn't seem to me to cut it."
>
> What else would you suggest I measure?
>
> Thanks, Jack Smith


Deflection as a function of time.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 07:05:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06926;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:03:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:03:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0b0662aae35 [199.237.131.227]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:04:26 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: The Bottom Line
Resent-Message-ID: <"OeZhu1.0.8i1.eghYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13509
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:15 PM 12/6/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>There is little doubt that the heavier Fermions-Leptons are integral
>multiples of the rest energy-mass Ee or Me of the electron;
>Mx = n*Ee/alpha^n'  or, Mx = n*Me/alpha^n'.

You mean "Ex = n*Ee/alpha^n'  or, Mx = n*Me/alpha^n'." I assume.



>
>Easy to look up in cookbook particle physics data.
>
>By the same token there should be particle pair production that yield
>particles of energy;
>Mx = n*Ee*alpha^n'  or mass Mx = n*Me*alpha^n',
>most likely down to a fraction of an ev.
>
>Roughly, 3730 ev, 27.2 ev , and 0.2 ev.

There would probably be a very short half life for them all, especialy the
0.2 ev?  Also, if charged, the particle radius would have to be huge
because the field strength would have to diminsh at a large radius from the
particle, otherwise the field would have more mass/energy than the total
creation energy of the particle.  Once created, a pair would haveno way to
get away from each other to continue existing.  Virtual electrons?

If such 0.2 ev particles existed, and were charged, then they should be
readily  detected in any electron tunneling device?  Their tunneling
distances would be much larger than the electrons', thus tunneling
junctions would have to be much larger than they are?  Also, pairs would be
readily created in a vacuum so vacuum tubes would leak more as voltage
rises?

>
>If String-Superstring theory holds up there the circularized strings get too
>unstable at 0.5 ev or less.
>
>Now can one find them?   :-)
>
>Regards,       Frederick

Could we have missed them?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 07:32:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22600;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:29:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:29:54 -0800
Message-Id: <199712071529.KAA07326 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 97 10:38:53 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "VORTEX" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"vMaMw2.0.2X5.n3iYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13510
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Barry Merriman writes:

>Huh? There is *NO* scientificly validated evidence for O/U 
>performance of anything, as far as I know.By evidence, you
>must mean claims and anecdotes. I extrapolate from such
>things about as far as I could throw Meyer.

This is complete nonsense from Barry Merriman, who is not even a 
subscriber to IE and has done NO analysis of carbon arc experiments (such 
as by DW Research) or on any other A/C input to water experiments. 
Believe me, there is lots of work going on and there is NO DOUBT about 
the excess power. I am under non-disclosure on much of this, so the 
scientific information will not come out for some time. That's life, 
which of course allows Barry to piss on this even more. I regret that.

Barry Merriman is a person who does not even extrapolate the obvious from 
peer-reviewed data on tritium evolution in CF systems that show no 
evidence of 14 MeV neutrons, so I would not expect him to believe in any 
O/U phenomena such as have been witessed and validated (by my standrds) 
many, many times.

To clarify about Meyer: None of Meyer's reports are worth anything and no 
one has been able to get O/U even using his probably worthless patents. 
With that said, the demonstration I personally witnessed at his shop 
about four years ago was unusual and very inexplicable.  But we do not 
need Meyer to know that O/U phenomena are connected with A/C water-based 
experiments.

Best Wishes, Gene Mallove


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 07:55:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26395;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:52:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:52:42 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Bottom Line
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:50:37 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0327$dc94f780$d393410c default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"L-n961.0.LS6.9PiYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13511
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: The Bottom Line


>At 11:15 PM 12/6/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>To: Vortex
>>
>>There is little doubt that the heavier Fermions-Leptons are integral
>>multiples of the rest energy-mass Ee or Me of the electron;
>>Mx = n*Ee/alpha^n'  or, Mx = n*Me/alpha^n'.
>
>You mean "Ex = n*Ee/alpha^n'  or, Mx = n*Me/alpha^n'." I assume.

Oops, misteak.  :-)
>
>
>
>>
>>Easy to look up in cookbook particle physics data.
>>
>>By the same token there should be particle pair production that yield
>>particles of energy;
>>Mx = n*Ee*alpha^n'  or mass Mx = n*Me*alpha^n',
>>most likely down to a fraction of an ev.
>>
>>Roughly, 3730 ev, 27.2 ev , and 0.2 ev.
>
>There would probably be a very short half life for them all, especialy the
>0.2 ev?  Also, if charged, the particle radius would have to be huge

The "radius" of the "String-Circle would be:
r = .5q^2/2(pi)eo*w. For a 0.5 ev particle the radius of the "string-circle"
would be 2.88E-9
meters, or 28.8 angstroms. Just the right size to get swallowed by a bare
proton or deuteron to make a "hydrino-type" particle that lasts long enough
to facilitate Quantum-Mechanical Tunneling before annihilating with its
antiparticle. Might explain "stripping" release of neutrons from deuterium
in 1 ev plasmas too.
>because the field strength would have to diminsh at a large radius from the
>particle, otherwise the field would have more mass/energy than the total
>creation energy of the particle.  Once created, a pair would haveno way to
>get away from each other to continue existing.

Not so, Horace. The repulsion by other (regular) electrons would keep these
away from
anything other than a bare proton or deuteron,yet attract the positive
entity keeping the annihilation rate down.
  Virtual electrons?

Not Virtual, Real electrons. Physics says that it can (not must) be
possible.
>
>If such 0.2 ev particles existed, and were charged, then they should be
>readily  detected in any electron tunneling device?

A 0.5 ev rest mass particle would travel at 0.87c at in a 0.5 volt field and
its mass would double: Mr = Mo[(qV/Mo*c^2)+1]. At 0.511E6 volts it would
"weigh" as much as a regular electron.
If you ain't looking for them you would probably mistake them for regular
electrons or
positive ions.  :-)

 Their tunneling
>distances would be much larger than the electrons', thus tunneling
>junctions would have to be much larger than they are?  Also, pairs would be
>readily created in a vacuum so vacuum tubes would leak more as voltage
>rises?

Why do you think 807s (and other vacuum tubes) get "gassey" so easily?  :-)
>
>>
>>If String-Superstring theory holds up there the circularized strings get
too
>>unstable at 0.5 ev or less.
>>
>>Now can one find them?   :-)
>>
>>Regards,       Frederick
>
>Could we have missed them?

I think so, but they explain CF and related ou
phenomena as well as Hot Fusion almost too nicely, dont they?

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 07:59:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27440;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:58:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:58:32 -0800
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:53:08 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: feam collisions
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971207103330.12051B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"I8Hjv1.0.bi6.dUiYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13512
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[due to the holiday season this is humor]
[no other reason for this]
[there are some real and genuine odd science bit is here]

	Feam collision

	This initial discussion of feam collision is meant to be a 
starting point for further work in the area.  Updates will be post as we 
get them and if any others do work in the areas please post too.


	Feam is frozen steam.  This can be accelerated under proper condition
along a guide made of a conductior.
	The feam is made by passing live steam into cold dry air or 
nitrogen.  If the temperature is low enough and pressure is ambient, or 
about 15 pounds/in/sq, or higher then the tiny particles of feam will 
remain intact.
	The accelerator is made by conductive  strips which are energized 
sequentially to 'pull the feam along'.

	Our first experiments allowed only a small window, about 3 by 5 
inches to actually see the accelerated feam.

	The first collision:


	After much adjustment of temperature and other conditions we were 
ready, hopefully, to have a usefuel feam beam.  In the past the feam 
would change state and wind up causing water which generally tended to 
short things out and cause other damage.  The first work intended to 
siply get a feam beam, and let it go by and to waste, just to see if it 
could be done.

	The steam source was set up and the cooling appartus was turned 
on to bring the temperature down.  The way the first set up worked was 
one person controlled the acceleration voltages, and this supply was at 
one end of the 6 foot feam tube.  At the other end was the exhaust, 
controlled by another person and about 2/3 way down was the window, and 
an observer watched and tried to give verbal feedback to the feam feed 
person and the exhaust person.
	The feeds were opened and after a short time the observer shouted
"FEAM .... I see feam .... my is that beautiful" ....The feed and exhaust 
people left their controls with extreme haste to see the first stable 
feam beam...
	There was a loud sound, a combination 'banging and bumping' as a 
single entity as all three of the immediated operatiors' heads slammed 
together to get a look into the single small window.

	This was the first feam collision.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 09:29:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12056;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:25:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:25:00 -0800
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 09:27:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method (1 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <348A7C46.776BF5B0 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971207090634.13274B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"2ZOSO1.0.Hy2.hljYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13513
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

> Hi Jim,
> 
> Is the faster than light signalling experiment
> discussed in the Corridor Light Experiment thread?

No. This is my first posting about FTL signalling.

> If not, I'm missing something;

Are you having trouble viewing the dos executable images? Sorry , I get
this complaint a lot about my postings from people who have Macs or
SparcStations and such . If anyone on vort can help me convert to GIF or
anything I would appreciate it. My computer (IBM DOS type) is old but I'm
just not motivated sufficiently to uproot everything it's had for years
and years and put it into a new machine . 

> and I would appreciate it if you would repost the original description
> of the FTL experiment.   

 Well, the description is the picture "setup_a.com" . It's really worth
the proverbial 1K words and probably maybe >5K or so that it would take to
describe the experimental arrangement .  

> Thanks, Jack Smith
> 
> 

Sorry if this really didn't help , Maybe one of our fellow vortexers will
convert the images for us into something you can use.

Jim Ostrowski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 10:04:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28335;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:45:15 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Dewar cells
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712071248_MC2-2B10-B401 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"j_F8M.0.bw6.nHkYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13514
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com

I wrote that I have never seen a Dewar flask used as a CF cell, and that
"Shelton went to the trouble to do these calculations even though nobody uses
Dewar flasks." Then I quoted Martin Fleischmann's comment:

     In this particular case he [Morrison] could equally well have said
     "glass Dewar vessels silvered in their top portion" (which is accurate)
     rather than "small transparent test tubes" (which is not).

Scott Little responded:

     I politely suggest that there might be a contradiction above re Dewar
     flasks.  Of course, I could be mistaken.

I do not see any contradiction, and I do not recall anyone who uses Dewars. Do
you, Scott? I do not necessarily remember every paper in the literature. As
far as I know, nobody uses them for the reasons given by Jones and Murray:
they are too slow. Srinivasan used Dewar flasks, but he broke the seal, making
an air gap instead a vacuum. Pons and Fleischmann, as noted, used a modified
Dewar with a window on the bottom. This radiates much more heat and it
eliminates 98% of the effects of changes in the water level. The performance
is radically different from that of an ordinary Dewar.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 10:43:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26655;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:39:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:39:56 -0800
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:42:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method (1 of 2) (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971207104121.19047B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"sUbGQ.0.PW6.xrkYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13515
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:40:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method (1 of 2)



On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, John Schnurer wrote:

> 
> 
> 	Well?

Well what?

> 
> 
> 	Did you signal? 

Yeah.

> Have you recorded FTL?

The record is the attachment to the original posting "scope_a.com". People
who don't have dos are having trouble viewing it , unfortunately. I asked
for help on this from vortexers.

  Where did you get the 
> experimental details from? 

The experiment was a collaboration with a fellow named Larry Adams of
Santa Cruz , California and myself , Jim Ostrowski. 

 Who designed the experiment or suggested it? 

I designed it from a suggestion by Larry . We read Sachs' stuff and worked
it out between us , so we share credit / blame ..whatever.

> 
> 	Tell all!


:-) !

Are you having trouble viewing the images too? HELP !! We need a GRAPHIC
CONVERSION FAST >>> Vortex please help.

The history on this goes way back to 1992 in the sci.physics newsgroup
discussion forum which Larry and I left in utter because of  all the
flames from acedemic types . Our one more or less reasonable friend there
named Matt McIrvin still posts to sci.physics but we had to leave him
mumbling something about "boundary conditions" due to the fact I went
completely off line for a couple of years , unfortunately. 

What else would you like to know?

Jim O.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 11:50:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08479;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 11:40:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 11:40:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <348AE26A.90DED3D0 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 20:52:42 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FTL signalling experiment/method images
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971207104121.19047B-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------39EF9CAC43C995859100059E"
Resent-Message-ID: <"y6djz2.0.P42.JklYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13516
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------39EF9CAC43C995859100059E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,
These are converted setup and scope images of Jim Ostrowski

hamdi ucar
--------------39EF9CAC43C995859100059E
Content-Type: image/gif; name="jim-1.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="jim-1.gif"
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--------------39EF9CAC43C995859100059E
Content-Type: image/gif; name="jim2.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="jim2.gif"
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--------------39EF9CAC43C995859100059E--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 12:20:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12572;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:16:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:16:01 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:09:53 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: History... FTL "low budget high end science" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971207150946.21294B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"UcvJE3.0.M43._FmYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13517
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:08:03 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
Cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: History... FTL "low budget high end science"


	Dear Vo.,

	History and Ethics of Science
	Warning:  I will editorialize some.

	For years I have maintained and often been able to prove high 
tech does not have to be high cost.  I call the ethic "Cavendish".

	J J Thompson, Rutherford, Wilson and a whole bunch of other 
people at the Cavendish did primary fundamantal work with about zip for 
instruments.  They MADE them.  And they had humor

	Junior associates of the Cavedish labs would entertain the 
"big guns" periodically.  An example of this is when J J Thompson was, as 
we say in local slang talk "ate slap up" with ions.  

	To the tune of My Darling Clementine

	Oh my darlings, oh my darlings, oh my darling ions mine,
	You are lost and gone forever,
	When just once you recombine


	The history of FTL on coaxial cable goes much farther back than 
1992. There are descriptions of actual simple experiments  to show this 
from the 50s and 60s.  
	This work does not require any frequencies higher than 100 meg 
cps not does it require sophisticated instruments.  Any good 60 meg cps 
scope is fine for seeing the effect.
	A simple oscillator made from a 2N2222 transistor will easily do 
the job.  Use two 2N3904 and 2N3906 transistors to make two buffers to 
buffer the output to be able to drive a 50 ohm cable.  Drive both buffers 
from the same oscillator.

	Send both buffered signals though identical phase shift 
networks.  One will be switched, one will not.

	Network:  22 ohm series resistor to isolate capacitive load.  
Capacitor couple the signal with 100 pF cap.  Tie the cap to ground with 
two resistors in series, 2.2 K ohms and 2.2K ohms.  Across each of the 
bottom resistors connect a 2N222 as a switch with the collector on the 
high side and the emitter to ground.  Use a pulse transformer made from 
20 turns bifilar ~ 18 to 26 AWG on any handy ferrite of powdered metal 
core.  One set of winding is between ground and base, use 470 ohm series 
base resistor.  Set both switching transistors up the same. This 
will allow you to drive the switch with a simple floating battery and an 
oscillator or function generator can be used if you want, or a manual switch.

	If this is beyond your ken, I strongly suggest you find either a 
good TV repair or ham radio operator person.

	The network induces phase shift in the 100 meg cps signal.  When 
switch transistor is on the phase lead is greater than when it is off.

	The basic set up is to use 2 channel scope.  Send the unswitched 
signal to channel B with about 10 yards of coax.  Terminate B and trigger 
from B. 

	Run out about a couple of hundred yards of coax, RG-59, or the 
like is fine.  Measure it and calculate how long it would take light in 
vacuum to go this distance.  Connect it to the switched 
buffer at one end and the scope channel A at the other.  Terminate. 
	
	Do a little noodling around.

> 
> Are you having trouble viewing the images too? HELP !! We need a GRAPHIC
> CONVERSION FAST >>> Vortex please help.


	I have no idea what the set up Jim O. has suggested is.  My 
system cannot read the file. 


	Editorial:

	Many find information from Internet or data bases.  Most data 
bases do not go back more than 20 years.  There is a whole pile of stuff 
not on data bases.  The ethic of the US PTO is to 
encourage inventors to give their work to humanity by granting them 17 to 
20 years exclusivity.  Often business interests will not wich to pursue 
some avanue of product if they cannot have exclusivity so in may cases if 
there has been patented work and the patent has lapsed this is not then a 
'good bet' for this thinking. 
	The world ended in 1977.... twenty years ago ... anything prior 
to taht is "old and no good..."  or "maybe cannot be patented".  
Transistors....a lot of analog circuits.... many quite useful 
instruments, tools and mature systems and devices .... stuff like that.
	


						J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 12:26:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11467;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:22:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:22:42 -0800
Message-ID: <348B04B4.730C24FD axionet.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 12:19:00 -0800
From: Jeane Manning <jmanning axionet.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
References: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net> <348A09CD.5E19@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"s1fcf3.0._o2.HMmYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13518
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote: ... his spark plug prototype efforts .. "still under
development."
I met Stan Meyer in Switzerland in 1989 and heard Dale Pond, in restaurant
discussion, give Meyer the idea for the spark plug.  In subsequent years
Meyer never mentioned where he got the idea.  Seems an idea is all he has.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 13:31:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20828;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:25:56 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:25:56 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:27:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method images
In-Reply-To: <348AE26A.90DED3D0 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971207132547.2721A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"YBOMj3.0.L55.XHnYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13519
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Thank you , Hamdi ... you are a gentleman and a scholar.

:-)

Jim O.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 15:01:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01306;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:52:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:52:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:46:09 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment/method images
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971207132547.2721A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971207174444.28487C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"djmCw2.0.HK.ZYoYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13520
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Folks,

	Can Hamdi or maybe Jerry Decker, Jean-Louis put this on one of 
your pages.... this way forks with now big juice can see the experiments.


		Thanks,


				John

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Jim Ostrowski wrote:

> 
> Thank you , Hamdi ... you are a gentleman and a scholar.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Jim O.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 16:34:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12321;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:28:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:28:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <01BD0335.E7579A70.JoeC transmutation.com>
From: Joe Champion <JoeC transmutation.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Reorganization rumor
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:31:06 -0000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Mrom2.0.R03.8zpYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13521
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



The recent announcement that Donner and Blitzen have elected to take the 
reindeer early retirement package has triggered a good deal of concern 
about whether they will be replaced and about other restructuring decisions 
at the North Pole. Streamlining was appropriate in view of the reality that 
the North Pole no longer dominates the season's gift distribution business.


Home shopping channels and mail order catalogues have diminished Santa's 
market share and they could not sit idly by and permit further erosion of 
the profit picture. The reindeer downsizing was made possible through the 
purchase of a late model Japanese sled for the CEO's annual trip.


Improved productivity from Dasher and Dancer, who summered at the Harvard 
Business School, is anticipated and should take up the slack with no 
discernible loss of service. Reduction in reindeer will also lessen 
airborne environmental emissions for which the North Pole has been cited 
and received unfavorable press.

I am pleased to inform you and yours that Rudolph's role will not be 
disturbed. Tradition still counts for something at the North Pole. 
Management denies, in the strongest possible language, the earlier leak 
that Rudolph's nose got that way not from the cold, but from substance 
abuse. Calling Rudolph "a lush who was into the sauce and never did pull 
his share of the load" was an unfortunate comment, made by one of Santa's 
helpers and taken out of context at a time of year when he is known to be 
under executive stress. As a further restructuring, today's global 
challenges require the North Pole to continue to look for better, more 
competitive steps.

Effective immediately, the following economy measures are to take place in 
the "Twelve Days of Christmas" subsidiary:

* The partridge will be retained, but the pear tree never turned out to be 
the cash crop forecasted. It will be replaced by a plastic hanging plant, 
providing considerable savings in maintenance.

* The two turtledoves represent a redundancy that is simply not cost 
 effective. In addition, their romance during working hours could not be 
 condoned. The positions are therefore eliminated.

* The three French hens will remain intact. After all, everyone loves the 
French.

* The four calling birds were replaced by an automated voice mail system, 
with a call waiting option. An analysis is underway to determine who the 
birds have been calling, how often and how long they talked.

* The five golden rings have been put on hold by the Board of Directors. 
Maintaining a portfolio based on one commodity could have negative 
implications for institutional investors. Diversification into other 
precious metals was considered.  However, this was nixed due to recent 
outbursts by Joe Champion and Barry Merriman.  It is speculated that the 
Board will now invest heavily in Lead.

* The six geese-a-laying constitutes a luxury, which can no longer be 
afforded. It has long been felt that the production rate of one egg per 
goose per day is an example of the decline in productivity. Three geese 
will be let go, and an upgrading in the selection procedure by personnel 
 will assure management that from now on every goose it gets will be a good 
one.

* The seven swans-a-swimming is obviously a number chosen in better times. 
 The function is primarily decorative. Mechanical swans are on order. The 
current swans will be retrained to learn some new strokes and therefore 
enhance their outplacement.

* As you know, the eight maids-a-milking concept has been under heavy 
scrutiny by the EEOC. A male/female balance in the workforce is being 
sought. The more militant maids consider this a dead-end job with no upward 
mobility. Automation of the process may permit the maids to try a-mending, 
a-mentoring or a-mulching.

* Nine ladies dancing has always been an odd number. This function will be 
phased out as these individuals grow older and can no longer do the steps.

* Ten Lords-a-leaping is overkill. The high cost of Lords plus the expense 
of international air travel prompted the Compensation Committee to suggest 
replacing this group with ten out-of-work congressmen. While leaping 
ability may be somewhat sacrificed, the savings are significant because we 
expect an oversupply of unemployed congressmen this year.

* Eleven pipers piping and twelve drummers drumming is a simple case of the 
band getting too big. A substitution with a string quartet, a cutback on 
new music and no uniforms will produce savings which will drop right down 
to the bottom line. We can expect a substantial reduction in assorted 
people, fowl, animals and other expenses. Though incomplete, studies 
indicate that stretching deliveries over twelve days is inefficient. If we 
can drop ship in one day, service levels will be improved.

Regarding the lawsuit filed by the attorney's association seeking expansion 
to include the legal profession ("thirteen lawyers-a-suing"), action is   
pending.

Lastly, it is not beyond consideration that deeper cuts may be necessary in 
the future to stay competitive. Should that happen, the Board will request 
management to scrutinize the Snow White Division to see if seven dwarfs is 
the right number.


MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL ...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 16:52:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26723;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:45:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:45:46 -0800
Message-ID: <348B5F7B.6791 keelynet.com>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 18:46:19 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stanley Meyer Update?
References: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net> <348A09CD.5E19@keelynet.com> <348B04B4.730C24FD@axionet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"32i6Q.0.OX6.vCqYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13522
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Jeanne!

That's interesting, about Dale giving Meyer the idea for the spark plug. 
Strange, I recall Meyer had one in his hand at one of the ISNE 
conferences and that was a major part of his presentation at that 
conference....I'll ask Dale about it and see if he told him anything else 
that might have wound up as a 'Meyer-original'....did Dale miss the boat 
on this one...<g>...

For a brief period of time, Bill Beaty had some posts on his site about a 
guy who claimed to have used a microwave magnetron/klystron to explode 
water to power the engine.  I understood that the guy who originally 
started this thread kind of 'went dark' since he worked for some 
government research lab and might have spoken out of turn.  The idea was 
interesting just the same.

A local fellow here in Dallas named Ron Moore was trying to build the 
Carl Cella hydrogen/oxygen generator that Cella claimed he adapted to a 
full blown 8 cylinder Cadillac.  Cella said that the plates (electrodes) 
would oxidize and lose the ability to produce gas, so he provided for 
several sets in the gas chamber.  As one set of plates began to lose 
effectiveness, he would switch power to a clean, fresh set using a 
mechanical switch on the dashboard.  He claimed he could make the car run 
several thousand miles before he had used up all the plates and had to 
remove them to scrape off the deposits.

Anyway, Ron Moore was trying to build this and said he couldn't get any 
decent gas volume.  So he looked for more powerful spark plugs.  He told 
me he had a friend at an airplane salvage yard who got him some airplane 
spark plugs.  Ron said the spark that you get from this would extend 
greater than an inch from the plug and would even fire underwater!  He 
said it was the durndest thing he'd ever seen.  Sounded like something 
that might be useful in the alternative approaches arena....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 18:49:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00459;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:40:38 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: What is a dickey bird?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971207214012.14432C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"KVjhp2.0._6.J-rYq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13523
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


	Header said 'er.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 22:27:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27895;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:23:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:23:53 -0800
Message-ID: <348B84BB.E10 earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:25:15 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Dewar flasks used by Arata & Zhang and Cravens
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"7RGYm3.0.ip6.u9vYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13524
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 7, 1997

Dear all,     Arata & Zhang's long paper has a diagram, clearly showing
a vacuum flask. 

"Flowing Electrolyte Calorimetry" by Dennis Cravens in Infinite Energy,
No. 2, May-June, 1995, p. 18-22, "The cell was wrapped with glass wool,
housed inside two Dewar flasks set mouth-to-mouth, and sealed from
humidity changes by parafilm.  This raised the thermal efficiency of the
calorimeter to 86 to 95%-- depending on its packing and sealing.  This
also lowered the thermal mass and shortened its response time."  

I quote from my summary of Shelton's report on calorimeter errors in
cold fusion research:

E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
calorimetry:

The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment
must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same
during experiment as during calibration.

The measured delta T must be the actual value.

The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small.

The delta T should not change very quickly.

The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
constant to be large.  This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results. [my language] 
Shelton calculates in detail that Dewer flasks can have as much heat
loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.  There is usually
much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads
and tubes.

"...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures
measured at single points in each.  Any thermal gradients present in the
solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results.  This
systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat' in
flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...[delta T],
the accuracy of which could easily suffer from the presence of
temperature gradients and unaccounted-for thermal paths...Such
isoperibol, temperature-rise flow calorimeters have not proven to be
generally useful because of such problems."

As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec  7 22:43:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA30151;
	Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:39:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:39:24 -0800
Message-ID: <348BB25D.31C1 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 00:39:57 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Changes in John Bedinis' URL
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971207174444.28487C-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"o29eq3.0._M7.ROvYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13525
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

I haven't seen it posted and after receiving queries about what happened 
to John's site, maybe it needs to be posted.

John Bedinis' server changed their name so any site which links to his 
needs to change the URL.  If you see on in your travels and it doesn't 
respond, please leave a note to the site maintainer to change to the 
correct URL....thanks..

The old URL ;  http://www.rand.nidlink.com/~john1

The NEW URL ;  http://www.nidlink.com/~john1

He was a bit disturbed when this happened so any help in getting it 
corrected would be appreciated.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 03:50:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27425;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 03:46:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 03:46:34 -0800
Message-ID: <348BFA57.47DF keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 05:47:03 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yY8pP3.0.Ri6.OuzYq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13526
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

Jeanne Manning recently reported that Meyers sparkplug that was supposed 
to explode water in any automobile was described to him by Dale Pond in 
Switzerland.  I sent an email to Dale asking about it and he said;
-----------------------------
Hi Jerry,

Yes, if I remember correctly Stan, Jeane and I were sitting in a little
cafe in Einsedlin (sp?) Switzerland during the SAFE conference in 1989
when I told Stan all about my idea of developing a spark plug that would
acoustically dissociate water and ignite the gas all in one unit. I said
this might be a way to legally circumvent the FED regulations about
messing with fuel systems. I basically gave him the idea.....Technically 
he cannot patent the idea either as I revealed it in a public forum - 
being the three of us present.
-----------------
Dale can be contacted at DaleSVP ipa.net and his SVP/Keely website is at;

    http://www.svpvril.com

SVP = Sympathetic Vibratory Physics

Vril is a term taken from an 1800's book by Bulwer Lytton, it refers to 
an all pervasive energy which is believed to be subject to mental 
direction...much like aether/zpe/zpf.

In his most advanced experiments in the latter part of his life, Keely 
claimed you could establish a 'sympathetic attendant' which let the 
operator control the energy flows in a tuned/graduated machine.  Read 
some of the files on Dales' site for more details.  Thanks Jeanne!!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 04:23:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28456;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:20:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:20:29 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348C021C.38B keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 06:20:12 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"h5D692.0.Yy6.AO-Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13527
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

thought this might be interesting to other Vorts....

Hi John!

The exact frequency is 42.8 cps...you should read about the Dr. X
experiment at;  http://www.keelynet.com/keely/danart1.txt

A section is included;

       A Barium Titanate ultrasonic transducer was fixed  to the bottom
  of a quartz  tube which was closed at the bottom and open at the top.
  Pure water was poured into the tube  and the water column was "tuned"
  so that a  standing  wave  was  produced  at 40,000 CPS  (cycles  per
  second).  The transducer  was  powered  by a 700 Watt power amplifier
  which was driven by an ultrasonic  frequency  generator.   Because of
  the large amount  of  power put into the column of  water  a  certain
  amount of evaporation   took  place  at  a  constant  rate  when  the
  transducer was energized.  Therefore,  to maintain a standing wave in
  the water column a feedback device caused the frequency  to be raised
  as the water evaporated and the temperature changed.

       As a test, Dr. X decided to run through the experiment with only
  water in the  tube  to  insure that a standing wave was maintained as
  the water evaporated and the frequency  rose higher and higher.  When
  the experiment was started everything worked beautifully.  Dr. X took
  periodic readings of  his instrumentation and was  assured  that  the
  standing wave was   being  maintained.   Suddenly,  with  no  warning
  whatever the water disappeared from  the open quartz tube.  He looked
  up thinking to  see  the water splashed on the ceiling  when  to  his
  amazement a clean  hole went right through the ceiling.  The hole was
  the same size   as  the  inside  of   the   quartz   tube.    Further
  investigation showed the  hole continued on through  the  roof  also!
  Dr. X checked his notebook and found the last frequency entry to be
  41,300 CPS.  It  was  shortly  after this that the water disappeared.
  Because of the  time  interval  between  the  last  reading  and  the
  disappearing water, the frequency sent to the transducer  was  higher
  than the last  reading  and  Dr.  X said it could well have been very
  close to 42,800 CPS, the Keely dissociation  frequency.   (11)   This
  obviously dangerous event caused Dr. X to dismantle the equipment and
  try some other approach to his problem.  This experiment  points  the
  way to the  use  of our modern technology in conjunction with Keely's
  laws of dissociation to change matter  into energy without the use of
  radioactive materials or extremely expensive atomic accelerators.

I included Dale's email so people could communicate with him directly if
they so choose.  There is MUCH with Keely which is not generally known
and I've not pushed it because I've seen the rabidness of the Tesla
Church....those who can see, will....seeya!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 04:42:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00677;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:38:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:38:47 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:38:10 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712081238.GAA13463 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki )
Subject: Dict. says: a (any) small bird Re: What is a dickey bird?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"SzJ2H1.0.QA.Lf-Yq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13528
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

December 8, 1997

>	Header said 'er.

Header answers.

-AK-

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 06:12:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09019;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:56:39 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Dewar flasks used by Arata & Zhang and C
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712080859_MC2-2B23-A1D8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"5xTzJ2.0.rC2.xz_Yq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13529
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rich Murray writes:

     Arata & Zhang's long paper has a diagram, clearly showing a vacuum
     flask.

     "Flowing Electrolyte Calorimetry" by Dennis Cravens in Infinite Energy,
     No. 2, May-June, 1995, p. 18-22, "The cell was wrapped with glass wool,
     housed inside two Dewar flasks set mouth-to-mouth, and sealed from
     humidity changes by parafilm. . . ."

     I quote from my summary of Shelton's report on calorimeter errors in
     cold fusion research:

     E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
     calorimetry: The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell
     and environment . . .

That doesn't count. Shelton and Calvet were talking about static calorimeters.
Arata & Zhang and Cravens use flow calorimeters. Heat loss is rapid and the
heat loss paths are well defined and consistent. A Dewar is only
counter-indicated for a static calorimeter in which the cell wall is the
primary heat loss path. In a flow calorimeter you want as much heat as
possible to leave via the cooling water flow, and as little as possible to go
out of the cell walls.

As usual, Murray misunderstands the issues, and he mixes up apples and
oranges.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 07:01:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15421;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:57:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:57:47 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: The Capacitance of Space and Circular String Particles
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:55:38 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd03e9$58ac6bc0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"2R4nW1.0.tm3.eh0Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13530
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick J. Sparber <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: The Capacitance of Space and Circular String Particles


>Hi Robin,you wrote:
>
>> I think that the math works equally well for the formula
>> C = 4*PI*eo*r, which is the capacitance of a sphere.
>
>Good. eo is given as 8.84E-12 farads/meter, thus is a
>one-dimensional (length only)property.
>
>An infinite number of one-dimensional radius lines of
>length r "radiating" from the center to the surface of a sphere will give
>the capacitance of one line for the whole sphere, won't it?     :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 07:31:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30632;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:27:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:27:35 -0800
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208092506.ZM1299 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:25:06 -0600
In-Reply-To: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
        "Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor" (Dec  6,  4:36pm)
References: <199712062234.QAA05254 mirage.skypoint.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"5PL_m2.0.YU7.c71Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13531
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec 6,  4:36pm, John Logajan wrote:

> The field reversed configuration has a magnetic field gradient that gets
> stronger toward the outer edges, thus causing any eccentric orbits to
> curve more quickly back into the inner space.

Trying to visualize this.  Can it be that they are trying to induce a plasma
vortex in the containment vessel, curving the orbits inward towards a locus of
highest orbit collision certainty?  Could be an effective way to overcome
Coulomb field repulsion.


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 07:42:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01752;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:38:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:38:43 -0800
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208093823.ZM1430 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:38:23 -0600
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Piezo Ceramics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"BKoJt2.0.DR.2I1Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13532
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vorts-

Can anyone point me in the direction of any information or experimental work
regarding the electrical discharging of piezo ceramics subjected to compressive
loads?  measured potentials, material specs, quantitative relationships,
process equations, experimental setups, etc.  Have another half-baked idea, but
need to do some homework.  I realize this is nothing new, I just don't know
where to begin.  8^)

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 07:58:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04257;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:54:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:54:32 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971208105247.006aaf74 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:52:47 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Piezo Ceramics
In-Reply-To: <971208093823.ZM1430 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"BIsWH.0.Q21.tW1Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13533
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  John:

  "Piezo ceramics"?
  Is barium titanate close to what you are
looking for?

  Try a search on "poled ferroelectrics".

The materials which you describe can be used to 
form electrets, BUT may not be piezoelectric which
involves a specific crystallographic class.

  If you can't find the numbers, let me know.

  Best wishes.
  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

 ==============================================


At 09:38 AM 12/8/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Vorts-
>
>Can anyone point me in the direction of any information or experimental work
>regarding the electrical discharging of piezo ceramics subjected to
compressive
>loads?  measured potentials, material specs, quantitative relationships,
>process equations, experimental setups, etc.  Have another half-baked
idea, but
>need to do some homework.  I realize this is nothing new, I just don't know
>where to begin.  8^)
>
>-- 
>John E. Steck 
>Prototype Tooling
>Motorola Inc.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 08:02:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05662;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:00:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:00:49 -0800
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208091122.ZM1200 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:11:22 -0600
In-Reply-To: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
        "Re: Stan Meyer Update" (Dec  8,  6:20am)
References: <348C021C.38B keelynet.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"9ZBxj2.0._N1.jc1Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13535
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Dec 8,  6:20am, Jerry wrote:

>  This obviously dangerous event caused Dr. X to dismantle the
>  equipment and try some other approach to his problem.

Is it just me, or is this the trademark red flag of all science legends and
conspiracy theories?  Does anyone know anyone involved in any experimental
science that would ever react so irresponsibly to such a dramatic event?

Any corroboration or replication of the event?

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 08:04:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23769;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:57:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:57:32 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Is t' the 5th Dimension?
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:54:20 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd03f1$8bbf1780$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"cLC581.0.Fp5.eZ1Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13534
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The wavelength (lambda = 2(pi)r) of a one-dimensional
(length only)particle is the distance a disturbance (energy?)must travel
before its phase is retarded by
2(pi)radians.

Beta (B) is the phase or wavelength constant.

Then: B*lambda = 2(pi), or lambda = 2(pi)/B

The phase of the wave changes by 2(pi)radians in a time t' equal to the
period of the wave. Since lambda
is the distance which it travels in shifting its phase by
2(pi) radians,then the ratio of wavelength lambda to the
period t' is the phase velocity vp.

For particles, the phase velocity vp = c/alpha or 137*c;

        vp = lambda/t' = 2(pi)r/t'

For a Fermion-Lepton mvr = n*h/2(pi) v = n*h/2(pi)r*m = vp.

Which is real, vp or t' or both?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 08:33:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11549;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:27:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:27:09 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712081627.KAA19556 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
In-Reply-To: <971208092506.ZM1299 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> from "John E. Steck" at "Dec 8, 97 09:25:06 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:27:01 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dba602.0.Nq2.R_1Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13536
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John E. Steck 
> > The field reversed configuration has a magnetic field gradient that gets
> > stronger toward the outer edges, thus causing any eccentric orbits to
> > curve more quickly back into the inner space.
> 
> Trying to visualize this.  Can it be that they are trying to induce a plasma
> vortex in the containment vessel, curving the orbits inward towards a locus of
> highest orbit collision certainty?  Could be an effective way to overcome
> Coulomb field repulsion.

That especially describes Bogdan Maglich's MIGMA configuration where the
variation in the magnetic field gradient was designed to return all
orbital peturbations back into the exact center.

In the field reversed configuration the don't make use of the exact
center, but rather just use the field gradient to constrain a ring
of orbital volume.   They have a cross-sectional view of the orbits
in the downloadable Physics Review Letters on-line re-print.

Also they show a nice cross-sectional diagram (though the text is
pretty blurry) of the magnetic fields.

I have a link to their web-site on my web-site, url below.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 08:56:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16157;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:51:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:51:27 -0800
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208105016.ZM1896 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:50:16 -0600
In-Reply-To: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
        "Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor" (Dec  8, 10:31am)
References: <199712081627.KAA19556 mirage.skypoint.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"6xKr71.0.My3.EM2Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13537
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec 8, 10:31am, John Logajan wrote:

> In the field reversed configuration the don't make use of the exact
> center, but rather just use the field gradient to constrain a ring
> of orbital volume.   They have a cross-sectional view of the orbits
> in the downloadable Physics Review Letters on-line re-print.
>
> Also they show a nice cross-sectional diagram (though the text is
> pretty blurry) of the magnetic fields.

Thanks!



-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 09:00:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16724;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:53:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:53:13 -0800
Message-ID: <348C4222.5210 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:53:22 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Q5unM3.0.854.tN2Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13538
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi John Steck!

In your email about paranoia, you wrote;

     > On Dec 8,  6:20am, Jerry wrote:

I did not write the article, Dan Davidson wrote it as posted on the URL 
document.  It had sufficient information to allow duplication by 'those 
skilled in the art'....Dan says he has been contacted by one other person 
who claims to have duplicated Dr. Xs claim.  Dan can be reached at 
rivas theriver.com should anyone wish to ask him about it.

As a result, it should more precisely state;

     >  On Dec 8,  6:20am, Jerry quoted:

Thanks.
------ 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 09:13:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03884;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:02:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:02:39 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208110127.ZM2016 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:01:27 -0600
In-Reply-To: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
        "Re: Piezo Ceramics" (Dec  8,  9:57am)
References: <3.0.1.32.19971208105247.006aaf74 world.std.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Piezo Ceramics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"-R6Kr1.0.Py.hW2Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13539
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec 8,  9:57am, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   "Piezo ceramics"?
>   Is barium titanate close to what you are
> looking for?
>
>   Try a search on "poled ferroelectrics".
>
> The materials which you describe can be used to
> form electrets, BUT may not be piezoelectric which
> involves a specific crystallographic class.
>
>   If you can't find the numbers, let me know.

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what I am specifically looking for yet.
 My originally request may be horribly inaccurate to what I am actually
seeking.  I figured I would do some reading before wasting everyone's time with
my own ignorance.

I will try the search you recommend and see if I can narrow things down a bit.
 Thanks for the help!

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 09:30:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25996;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:21:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:21:33 -0800
Message-ID: <348C4318.43DE bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 10:57:28 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [off topic] Newman's Solar Flares
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"5bEi-1.0.5M6.Ro2Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13540
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts, Vorts,

News exerpt from the fringe at:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/iufo/msg02408.shtml

that might be of some passing interest. <g>

Terry

	########################

From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:46:41 -0600
Subject: PRESS RELEASE -- 12/3/97

To the People of the Earth:

It has recently been reported on the national news that during the
forthcoming week, numerous planets of our solar system will align.

Please refer to pages 133 through 136 of my book, The Energy Machine of
Joseph Newman, in which I present factual evidence that when the planets
align on the same side of the Sun, that sunspot polarity and the Sun's
electromagnetic energy will be noticeably increased.

I am certain than within the next 30 days the number of natural
disasters will increase upon the Earth's surface.  Such disasters can be
in the form of earthquakes, unusually strong storms, volcanic eruptions
--- and/or a combination of all of these events.

As the planets electromagnetically induce into the Sun, the Sun is
triggered' into releasing a higher electromagnetic output into the
planets, which includes the Earth.

As a result, natural disasters on and in the Earth will increase.  Be
prepared.

Love to all humanity,

[signed]
Joseph Westley Newman
___________________________
Prepared by Evan Soule'
josephnewman earthlink.net
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html

"Electromagnetic fields of any intensity can be released to neutralize
or harmonize with incoming electromagnetic induction from Space.  With
such construction, the Earth's weather can be controlled, created, and
directed!"  --- JOSEPH W. NEWMAN

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 09:47:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10613;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:43:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:43:51 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208114248.ZM2453 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:42:47 -0600
In-Reply-To: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
        "Re: Stan Meyer Update" (Dec  8, 10:57am)
References: <348C4222.5210 keelynet.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"DgLdl3.0.db2.I73Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13541
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Dec 8, 10:57am, Jerry wrote:

> I did not write the article, Dan Davidson wrote it as posted on the URL
> document.  It had sufficient information to allow duplication by 'those
> skilled in the art'....Dan says he has been contacted by one other person
> who claims to have duplicated Dr. Xs claim.  Dan can be reached at
> rivas theriver.com should anyone wish to ask him about it.

Sorry about that.  Didn't mean to imply anything.  I realized you were quoting
someone else, but I can see how, out of context, it could make you a lighting
rod.  Encouraged to hear of corroboration, but to me the significance of
finding such an process seems far reaching enough to warrant more attention
than it's got, don't you think?  I was only commenting on the classic theme of
the claim.

Short of contacting Dan directly, is there any information posted anywhere?
 Resonance applications are currently of personal interest to me.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 10:10:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14838;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:05:26 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:05:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0b1e0dff49f [199.237.131.232]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:06:37 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Vacuum Capacitance and Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"JwjZu1.0.jd3.aR3Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13542
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 6:27 AM 12/3/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

>
>The vacuum capacitance of two plates of 1.0E-4 m^2 area at some initial
>potential V separated by a distance d;
>C = 8.84E-16/d.
>
>Since energy w = .5 CV^2 as the plates are "pushed" together (by the vacuum
>energy) the capacitance C must increase while the potential V must decrease
>to maintain the initial energy w constant. Thus if there was 1.414
>(2^1/2) volts potential on the plates separated 8.84E-6 meters initially, w
>would be 1.0E-10 joules.
>
>Then as the plates move together to a separation of 1.0E-6
>meters the capacitance would increase to 8.84E-10 farads and now w =
>8.84E-10 joules if the potential remained at
>(2)^1/2 volts, a gain in energy of 8.84E-10 joules from the ZPE force?
>


Referring to Fig. 1, suppose we have an armature, centered at X, consisting
of 4 radial arms with four insulated flat conducting plates, O.  Opposed to
each other by 180 degrees, and in the path of motion of the plates O are
two pairs of plates P through which the plates O rotate. Two plates O are
hidden within the plate pairs P in Fig. 1.



                    O   A <-----
                    |          S
         -----< P---X---P >-----
         S          |
         -----> B   O



                  Fig. 1


As the armature rotates clockwise, and a pair of plates O reach points A
and B, they are charged, say positively, when reaching points A and B by ,
while simultaneously the plate pairs P are charged the opposite. This
requires little energy because the system has nominal capacitance in this
configuration.  The plates O are then attracted to and into the plate pairs
P.  When the plates O are fully contained between the plate pairs P the
system has a maximum capacitance, and maximum electrical potential energy.
The plates are then discharged through a transformer which then supplies
power from the secondary, through a diode bridge, to charge a capacitor
and/or battery for maintaining control of the device, supplying well timed
pulses from S, and supplying excess energy.

Any problems?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 10:11:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15023;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:06:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:06:03 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:40:19 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Stan Meyer Update
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712081243_MC2-2B2D-F10A compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"yyPU_.0.Hg3.1S3Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13543
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mime-Version: 1.0

Jerry described a dramatic hole made in the ceiling and roof of a building by
an anomalous energy device. He commented: "This obviously dangerous event
caused Dr. X to dismantle the equipment and try some other approach to his
problem.

John E. Steck asks:

     Is it just me, or is this the trademark red flag of all science legends
     and conspiracy theories?

Yes, this is the leitmotif of such legends. It goes along with horror movie
cliche: "There are some things man was not meant to know."

John asks:

     Does anyone know anyone involved in any experimental science that would
     ever react so irresponsibly to such a dramatic event?

I disagree. If this really happened (which I doubt), it would irresponsible
*not* to change the experimental protocol and instruments. In real life,
accidents and unsafe experiments do cause tragedies. When a hot fusion
experiment at Cornell in the 1970s was improperly grounded it electrocuted a
worker. A high pressure CF cell at SRI exploded in 1992 and killed Andrew
Riley. In the latter case a whole series of safety devices failed in a
fantastic coincidence, but the high pressure tests were terminated
nonetheless. I do not think they were particularly effective in any case.

Historically, many important inventors and technologists have run unnecessary
risks. I think Diesel and Parsons ran prototype engines harder, faster and
sooner than they should have. Diesel nearly killed himself. Edison's men
installed underground cables and nearly electrocuted horses and pedestrians in
the 1880s. The Wrights admitted in later years that they had been
extraordinarily and uncharacteristically foolhardy flying a new design in the
teeth of 27 mph gale on December 17, 1903. Undue haste in the space race led
to a fatal launch pad fire during the Apollo program, killing three
astronauts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 10:40:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20903;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:35:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:35:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530503b0b1e810a51e [199.237.131.238]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:11:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Piezo Ceramics
Resent-Message-ID: <"IfXwp3.0.Q65.pt3Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13544
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:38 AM 12/8/97, John E. Steck wrote:
>Vorts-
>
>Can anyone point me in the direction of any information or experimental work
>regarding the electrical discharging of piezo ceramics subjected to compressive
>loads?  measured potentials, material specs, quantitative relationships,
>process equations, experimental setups, etc.  Have another half-baked idea, but
>need to do some homework.  I realize this is nothing new, I just don't know
>where to begin.  8^)
>
>--
>John E. Steck
>Prototype Tooling
>Motorola Inc.

There is a practical little bit in the "Audio Cyclopedia" by Tremain.
There are sections about the piezoelectric effect in most solid state
physics books.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 12:00:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01733;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:55:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:55:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530504b0b200ec7c3e [199.237.131.238]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:56:56 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"T6fZu1.0.yQ.j25Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13545
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Referring to Fig. 1, suppose we have an armature, centered at X, consisting
of 4 radial arms with four insulated flat conducting plates, O.  Opposed to
each other by 180 degrees, and in the path of motion of the plates O are
two pairs of plates P through which the plates O rotate. Two plates O are
hidden within the plate pairs P in Fig. 1.



                    O   A <-----
                    |          S
         -----< P---X---P >-----
         S          |
         -----> B   O



                  Fig. 1


As the armature rotates clockwise, and a pair of plates O reach points A
and B, they are charged, say positively, while simultaneously the plate
pairs P are charged the opposite. This requires little energy because the
system has nominal capacitance in this configuration.  The plates O are
then attracted to and into the plate pairs P.  When the plates O are fully
contained between the plate pairs P the system has a maximum capacitance,
and maximum electrical potential energy. The plates are then discharged
through a transformer which then supplies power from the secondary, through
a diode bridge, to charge a capacitor and/or battery for maintaining
control of the device, supplying well timed pulses from S, and supplying
excess energy.

Any problems?

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 13:06:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13755;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:58:39 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b20d0d55ea [199.237.131.238]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:55:00 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"NqemX2.0.pM3.xz5Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13546
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Referring to Fig. 1, suppose we have an armature, centered at X, consisting
of 4 radial arms with four insulated flat conducting plates, O.  Opposed to
each other by 180 degrees, and in the path of motion of the plates O are
two pairs of plates P through which the plates O rotate. Two plates O are
hidden within the plate pairs P in Fig. 1.



                    O   A <-----
                    |          S
         -----< P---X---P >-----
         S          |
         -----> B   O



                  Fig. 1


As the armature rotates clockwise, and a pair of plates O reach points A
and B, they are charged, say positively, while simultaneously the plate
pairs P are charged the opposite. This requires little energy because the
system has nominal capacitance in this configuration.  The plates O are
then attracted to and into the plate pairs P.  When the plates O are fully
contained between the plate pairs P the system has a maximum capacitance,
and maximum electrical potential energy. The plates are then discharged
through a transformer which then supplies power from the secondary, through
a diode bridge, to charge a capacitor and/or battery for maintaining
control of the device, supplying well timed pulses from S, and supplying
excess energy.

One problem with the above is the fact the charges remain constant.
However, this can be fixed by charging only the plates O, with charge Q at
A and B, and grounding plates P with a ground wire.  Then as plates O
approach plates P they induce an opposite charge on plates P, which must
flow through the ground wire to plates P.  Inserting a transformer primary
in to the ground circuit for plates P then permits drawing energy even
while the plates O are accelerated towards plates P.  Further, in the final
neutralizing of the plates, 2Q is discharged, thus energy is gained both in
the acceleration of the plates and in the discharges.

Flim flammed yet Fred?  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 13:14:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15504;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:08:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:08:58 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:05:36 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd041d$080eeb00$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"LakSK1.0.Ao3.c76Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13547
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 1:00 PM
Subject: Capacitor motor


>
>Referring to Fig. 1, suppose we have an armature, centered at X, consisting
>of 4 radial arms with four insulated flat conducting plates, O.  Opposed to
>each other by 180 degrees, and in the path of motion of the plates O are
>two pairs of plates P through which the plates O rotate. Two plates O are
>hidden within the plate pairs P in Fig. 1.
>
>
>
>                    O   A <-----
>                    |          S
>         -----< P---X---P >-----
>         S          |
>         -----> B   O
>
>
>
>                  Fig. 1
>
>
>As the armature rotates clockwise, and a pair of plates O reach points A
>and B, they are charged, say positively, while simultaneously the plate
>pairs P are charged the opposite. This requires little energy because the
>system has nominal capacitance in this configuration.  The plates O are
>then attracted to and into the plate pairs P.  When the plates O are fully
>contained between the plate pairs P the system has a maximum capacitance,
>and maximum electrical potential energy. The plates are then discharged
>through a transformer which then supplies power from the secondary, through
>a diode bridge, to charge a capacitor and/or battery for maintaining
>control of the device, supplying well timed pulses from S, and supplying
>excess energy.
>
>Any problems?

Are you planning the re-invention of the quadrant electrostatic voltmeter,
Horace?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 13:21:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17168;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:18:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:18:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b2149c1c5b [199.237.131.244]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:19:45 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"nkdR32.0.8C4.PG6Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13548
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 2:05 PM 12/8/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>
>Are you planning the re-invention of the quadrant electrostatic voltmeter,
>Horace?  :-)
>

How about Helmholtz in reverse?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 14:48:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03690;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348C93FE.5CD9 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:42:38 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
References: <348C4222.5210 keelynet.com> <971208114248.ZM2453@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RKu-v1.0.av.-V7Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13550
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi John!

In light of the claims of First American Scientific that they shatter 
waste using standing waves, I think Dan's Dr. X using standing waves in 
water fits very nicely.....so if Keely's claime of 42.8cps is correct, 
then a 700W signal, in a standing wave configuration would seem easy 
to achieve...a matter of hardware and adjustment....when I first read 
it, I thought it was a maser since the water just disappeared like 
that.  

The article did not specify that the full 700W amplitude was used, I 
think it was just RATED AT 700W.  If it is true resonance, the power 
level might not have to be anywhere near that.

Keely did say you had levels of dissociation.....one level forms a kind 
of plastic vapor like taffy, high power as must have been used by Dr. X 
simply blew the water to hell....lots to work with in just this simple 
experiment...would make a great demo at a conference...<g>.....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 14:48:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03514;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:41:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:41:45 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712082240.QAA06999 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
In-Reply-To: <199712081243_MC2-2B2D-F10A compuserve.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Dec 8, 97 12:40:19 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:40:49 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wRH0w.0.ls.aU7Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13549
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed wrote:
> Historically, many important inventors and technologists have run unnecessary
> risks.

Since these are invariably unknown risks, I couldn't disagree more.

The more important an invention or discovery is to mankind, the
greater number of lives it will save or improve.  When safety is
obvious or anticipation of low probability events are low cost,
who could dispute taking the safe way.  But dragging ones feet
in development or burdening development with ultra-low-risk
safeguards may protect lives locally, but at a cost of many more
lives lost globally.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 14:56:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04563;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:48:49 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:48:49 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:42:07 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Vacuum Capacitance and Capacitor motor
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0b1e0dff49f [199.237.131.232]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971208174018.5387E-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VTELj.0.171.9b7Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13552
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	{I don't like this word and am only using it because you have!}


	Problem:

	It requires current to charge caps.

	This is not a 'problem' ... just how it is!

				J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 15:05:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20350;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:47:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:47:05 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b229471bc4 [199.237.131.244]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:49:08 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"0pGIL3.0.hz4.bZ7Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13551
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:05 PM 12/8/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>
>Are you planning the re-invention of the quadrant electrostatic voltmeter,
>Horace?  :-)
>

How about Helmholtz in reverse?

Sorry, that's Wimshurst, not Helmholtz.  The old memory isn't what it used
to be, which was fair to poor to begin with.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 15:12:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07161;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:03:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:03:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348C6E30.4FDD earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 16:01:20 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com,
        jdunn ctc.org, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com, tchubb@aol.com,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        storms ix.netcom.com, 76002.1473@compuserve.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, eureka@bright.net,
        JNaudin509 denmark.it.earthlink.net, nick7@itl.net, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        ceti_gcollins msn.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net
Subject: Radwaste Remediation: Renewed offer to CERN re LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"IL5o-3.0.nl1.jo7Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13553
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.2])
	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14136;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:45:00 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user17.pahrump.com [205.226.146.117])
	by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12203;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:43:03 -0800
From: "Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>
To: "Douglas Morrison" <drom vxcern.cern.ch>
Cc: "Stan Gleeson" <cincygrp ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Radwaste Remediation: Renewed offer to CERN re LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:38:00 -0800
Message-ID: <01bd0419$2d3e6800$6b92e2cd rbrtbass.pahrump.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD03D6.78728E20"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD03D6.78728E20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dr. Douglas R. O. Morrison
CERN

Subject: Renewed offer re Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT)
                Reactor Kit LENT-1 for Radwaste Remediation
                (Now being sold with "Moneyback Guarantee" of Results.)
[Just found to give 83% Radioactivity Reduction from 0.1 gm Thorium at
                 Romania's Institute for Isotopic Technology]

Dear Dr. Morrison,
        I hope that your "whirlwind trip" to Russia was successful.
        I am again offering to ask the CG to lend you, for test at CERN,
a complete LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor.
        They loaned one to the Institute of Isotopic Technology and
just got the following Preliminary Report from Dr. Peter Glueck,
according to which _their_ nuclear physicists reported that 83% of
the Thorium had disappeared within 45 minutes at an energy-cost
of less than 5 cents.
        Hal Fox has now published 3 papers (in Journal of New
Energy, and in the New Energy Newsletter) on his & Dr. Jin's
"successfull" accomplishment of 20 successive runs.  He has
made a Training Videotape of how to run with no mistakes
and has also written a Tutorial Manual.  He has sold several
LENT-1 Reactors (such as to Nevada Power & Light, and
in Eastern Europe, and in Asia) for testing purposes.
            The CG themselves have sold one Kit to Pirelli in
Milan and have loaned several others to various European
labs, following their recent well-received presentation to the
Third ASTI workshop on Anomalous Effects in Deuterated
Metals at Asti, Italy.
            Regards,
                            Bob Bass =20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Here is today's report from the Inst. for Isotopic Technology:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
Dear Friends,
As told, Manu Surducan and I made the first test with the CINCY CELL
trying to reproduce closely the Protocol from IE 13/14. Had some
unpleasant surprises but had finished the test and got a quite
significant radioactivity reduction.
I dare to state that I have understood the basic idea of the Protocol:
due to consuming of the initial charge carriers (or changing of the
conduction mechanism) the current is diminishing and this has to be=20
compensated by steadily increasing of the voltage. Probably the more
experienced colleagues know when the desired LENT processes take place.

The parameters are depending on the geometry of the cell--disk electrode
wall gap etc., therefore our values for current, temperature and voltage
(the controlling factor) are not identical with those from the protocol.
In accordance with the discussions with Stan and Don, the cell was =
placed
on an aluminum block and was cooled with air blowed by a small fan, =
quite
efficiently. My engineering instinct told me that the focus has to be on
safety, this cooling doesn't have great effect on what happens in the
reaction zone (have seen this zone at the CG's extraordinary video made
with a cell having polycarbonate flanges!).
The thermocouple is placed on the part opposite to the entrance of =
cooling=20
air.

Time (min)     Current (amp)    Voltage (V)   Temperature (deg C)=20

1              1.0               50             17
2              1.0               50             30
3              0.9               50             37
4              1.5               50             47
5              2.4               50             57
6              5.6               50             81

[leakage at the filler plug, changed the teflon tape and..continued)

7              3.2               50              32
8              3.50              50              58
9              3.85              50              78
10             4.67              50              94
11             4.53              50             109
12             4.06              50/63          130
13             4.18              63             130
14             3.08              63/75          138
15             2.90              78.5           144
16             2.54              94             147
17             1.91              94/113         148
18             1.75              113/120        146
19             1.57              134            147
20             1.20              150            142
21             1.13              152            140
22             1.01              184            138
23             1.00              213            140
24             0.87              213            140
25             0.78              213            137
26             0.72              213            133
27             0.64              213            130
28             0.63              213            126
29             0.67              213            126
30             0.67              213            126
31             0.85              213            125
32             0.90              213            125=20
33             0.94              213            129
34             0.95              213            135
35             0.85              213            136
36             0.77              213            134
37             0.76              213            130
38             0.76              213            129
39             0.68              213            127
40             0.65              213            125
41             0.66              213            123
42             0.67              213            122
43             0.70              213            122
44             0.70              213            121
45             0.71              213            121
.............................................................

We  have obtained a white solution with some precipitate in it,
apparently without significant losses.
Using a NaJ/Tl crystal detector, calibrated for Th, the nuclear dept.
reported for the two solutions, integrally in two beakers, in a=20
1000 seconds standard test:

Original solution: 3.179 counts/sec
Processed solution:0.660 counts/sec=20
Background:        0.160 counts/sec

One test =3Dno test say one of my basic rules; tomorow we shall try to
make a second test, in similar conditions (if no advices or suggestions
will arrive till then from you).

I have measured the pH values of the solutions (will measure the ionic
conductivity too as soon as I can!) got 1.9 for the original and 3.2 for
the processed one.
What are the charge carriers---so important for this process?/
Best wishes,
Peter
--=20
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           =
Tel:064-184037/144
Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
forwarded by:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins]
                        Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof =
Physics]
Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending
                                      Innoventech, Inc.
Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for
          Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g.
                 Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000
                         See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/
P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739
Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213;          e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD03D6.78728E20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dr. Douglas R. O. =
Morrison</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>CERN</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Subject: Renewed offer re Low Energy Nuclear =
Transmutation=20
(LENT)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Reactor Kit LENT-1 for Radwaste Remediation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
(Now being sold with &quot;Moneyback Guarantee&quot; of=20
Results.)</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>[Just found to =
give 83%=20
Radioactivity Reduction from 0.1 gm Thorium at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Romania's Institute for Isotopic Technology]</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Dr. Morrison,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=20
hope that your &quot;whirlwind trip&quot; to Russia was=20
successful.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am=20
again offering to ask the CG to lend you, for test at =
CERN,</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>a complete =
LENT-1=20
Transmutation Reactor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; They loaned one to =
the=20
Institute of Isotopic Technology and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>just got the =
following=20
Preliminary Report from Dr. Peter Glueck,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>according to which _their_ nuclear physicists =
reported that=20
83% of</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the Thorium had disappeared within 45 minutes at an=20
energy-cost</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>of less than 5 cents.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hal Fox has now =
published 3=20
papers (in Journal of New</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Energy, and in =
the New=20
Energy Newsletter) on his &amp; Dr. Jin's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&quot;successfull&quot; accomplishment of 20 =
successive=20
runs.&nbsp; He has</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>made a Training Videotape of how to run with no=20
mistakes</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and has also written a Tutorial Manual.&nbsp; He has =
sold=20
several</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>LENT-1 Reactors (such as to Nevada Power &amp; =
Light,=20
and</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>in Eastern Europe, and in Asia) for testing=20
purposes.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; The CG=20
themselves have sold one Kit to Pirelli in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Milan and have loaned several others to various=20
European</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>labs, following their recent well-received =
presentation to=20
the</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Third ASTI workshop on Anomalous Effects in=20
Deuterated</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Metals at Asti, Italy.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Bob Bass&nbsp; </FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Here is today's report from the Inst. for Isotopic=20
Technology:</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Friends,<BR>As told, Manu Surducan and I made =
the first=20
test with the CINCY CELL<BR>trying to reproduce closely the Protocol =
from IE=20
13/14. Had some<BR>unpleasant surprises but had finished the test and =
got a=20
quite<BR>significant radioactivity reduction.<BR>I dare to state that I =
have=20
understood the basic idea of the Protocol:<BR>due to consuming of the =
initial=20
charge carriers (or changing of the<BR>conduction mechanism) the current =
is=20
diminishing and this has to be <BR>compensated by steadily increasing of =
the=20
voltage. Probably the more<BR>experienced colleagues know when the =
desired LENT=20
processes take place.<BR><BR>The parameters are depending on the =
geometry of the=20
cell--disk electrode<BR>wall gap etc., therefore our values for current, =

temperature and voltage<BR>(the controlling factor) are not identical =
with those=20
from the protocol.<BR>In accordance with the discussions with Stan and =
Don, the=20
cell was placed<BR>on an aluminum block and was cooled with air blowed =
by a=20
small fan, quite<BR>efficiently. My engineering instinct told me that =
the focus=20
has to be on<BR>safety, this cooling doesn't have great effect on what =
happens=20
in the<BR>reaction zone (have seen this zone at the CG's extraordinary =
video=20
made<BR>with a cell having polycarbonate flanges!).<BR>The thermocouple =
is=20
placed on the part opposite to the entrance of cooling =
<BR>air.<BR><BR>Time=20
(min)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Current (amp)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Voltage=20
(V)&nbsp;&nbsp; Temperature (deg C)=20
<BR><BR>1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
17<BR>2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
30<BR>3&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
0.9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
37<BR>4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
1.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
47<BR>5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
2.4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
57<BR>6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
5.6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
81<BR><BR>[leakage at the filler plug, changed the teflon tape=20
and..continued)<BR><BR>7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
3.2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
32<BR>8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
3.50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
58<BR>9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
3.85&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
78<BR>10&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
4.67&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
94<BR>11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
4.53&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
109<BR>12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
4.06&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
50/63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
130<BR>13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
4.18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
130<BR>14&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
3.08&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
63/75&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
138<BR>15&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
2.90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
78.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
144<BR>16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
2.54&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
94&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
147<BR>17&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.91&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
94/113&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
148<BR>18&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.75&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
113/120&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
146<BR>19&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.57&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
134&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
147<BR>20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.20&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
150&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
142<BR>21&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
152&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
140<BR>22&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.01&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
184&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
138<BR>23&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
1.00&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
140<BR>24&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.87&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
140<BR>25&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.78&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
137<BR>26&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.72&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
133<BR>27&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.64&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
130<BR>28&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
126<BR>29&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.67&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
126<BR>30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.67&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
126<BR>31&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.85&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
125<BR>32&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.90&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
125=20
<BR>33&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;=20
0.94&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
129<BR>34&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.95&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
135<BR>35&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.85&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
136<BR>36&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.77&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
134<BR>37&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.76&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
130<BR>38&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.76&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
129<BR>39&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.68&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
127<BR>40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.65&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
125<BR>41&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.66&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
123<BR>42&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.67&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
122<BR>43&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.70&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
122<BR>44&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.70&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
121<BR>45&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
0.71&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
213&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
121<BR>.............................................................<BR><=
BR>We&nbsp;=20
have obtained a white solution with some precipitate in =
it,<BR>apparently=20
without significant losses.<BR>Using a NaJ/Tl crystal detector, =
calibrated for=20
Th, the nuclear dept.<BR>reported for the two solutions, integrally in =
two=20
beakers, in a <BR>1000 seconds standard test:<BR><BR>Original solution: =
3.179=20
counts/sec<BR>Processed solution:0.660 counts/sec=20
<BR>Background:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.160=20
counts/sec<BR><BR>One test =3Dno test say one of my basic rules; tomorow =
we shall=20
try to<BR>make a second test, in similar conditions (if no advices or=20
suggestions<BR>will arrive till then from you).<BR><BR>I have measured =
the pH=20
values of the solutions (will measure the ionic<BR>conductivity too as =
soon as I=20
can!) got 1.9 for the original and 3.2 for<BR>the processed one.<BR>What =
are the=20
charge carriers---so important for this process?/<BR>Best =
wishes,<BR>Peter<BR>--=20
<BR>dr. Peter Gluck<BR><BR>Institute of Isotopic and Molecular=20
Technology&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Fax:064-420042<BR>Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box=20
700&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Tel:064-184037/144<BR>Cluj 5, 3400=20
Romania&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Home: 064-174976<BR>E-mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:peter itim.org.soroscj.ro">peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro</A> =
, <A=20
href=3D"mailto:peterg oc1.itim-cj.ro">peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro</A> =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>forwarded by:</FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Robert W.=20
Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns=20
Hopkins]<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics]<BR>Inventor: =
Topolotron,=20
Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Innoventech, Inc.<BR>Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear =
Transmutation=20
(LENT) for<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Radwaste=20
Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems,=20
e.g.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price=20
$3,000<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;=20
See <A=20
href=3D"http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/">http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/</A><=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV =
89041-1238; phone/FAX:=20
(702) 751-0932/0739<BR>Voice-Mail: (702)=20
387-7213;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; e-Mail: =
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:rbrtbass pahrump.com">rbrtbass@pahrump.com</A><BR>=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT>&nbsp;</D=
IV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD03D6.78728E20--



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 15:43:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11403;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:31:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:31:12 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com )
From: "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Message-Id: <971208170314.ZM5002 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:03:14 -0600
In-Reply-To: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
        "Re: Piezo Ceramics" (Dec  8,  9:57am)
References: <3.0.1.32.19971208105247.006aaf74 world.std.com>
X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Piezo Ceramics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"22XSc2.0.5o2.yC8Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13555
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec 8,  9:57am, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>   Is barium titanate close to what you are
> looking for?
>   Try a search on "poled ferroelectrics".

"barium titanate", "poled ferroelectric", "piezoelectric effect" all proved to
be very effective keywords to search.  I happy to say I have downloaded enough
information to put a herd of cows to sleep.  <G>

Thanks again for the help.



-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 15:55:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04689;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:48:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:48:28 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:48:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Newman's Solar Flares
To: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
In-Reply-To: <348C4318.43DE bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9712081757.A9192-0100000 firefly.prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"C_9Nt3.0.B91.AT8Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13556
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Terry Blanton wrote:

> Gnorts, Vorts,
> 
> News exerpt from the fringe at:
> 
> http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/iufo/msg02408.shtml
> 
> that might be of some passing interest. <g>
> 
> Terry
> 
> 	########################
> 
> From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:46:41 -0600
> Subject: PRESS RELEASE -- 12/3/97
> 
> To the People of the Earth:
> 
> It has recently been reported on the national news that during the
> forthcoming week, numerous planets of our solar system will align.
> 
> Please refer to pages 133 through 136 of my book, The Energy Machine of
> Joseph Newman, in which I present factual evidence that when the planets
> align on the same side of the Sun, that sunspot polarity and the Sun's
> electromagnetic energy will be noticeably increased.
> 
> I am certain than within the next 30 days the number of natural
> disasters will increase upon the Earth's surface.  Such disasters can be
> in the form of earthquakes, unusually strong storms, volcanic eruptions
> --- and/or a combination of all of these events.
> 
> As the planets electromagnetically induce into the Sun, the Sun is
> triggered' into releasing a higher electromagnetic output into the
> planets, which includes the Earth.
> 
> As a result, natural disasters on and in the Earth will increase.  Be
> prepared.
> 
> Love to all humanity,
> 
> [signed]
> Joseph Westley Newman

As a very active radio amateur on the HF bands, I have been observing the 
presence of solar flares and sunspot cycles for many years.

The number of sunspots has been increasing over the last 8 months or so 
as we finally leave Cycle 22 and enter Cycle 23.  It has just started to 
get exciting again, with solar fluxes returning to the 120's and MUF's 
climbing to 28 MHz. The polarity of observed sunspots reversed back in 
April or May; this indicated the beginning of Cycle 23 was at hand.

I have noticed no unusual activity lately compared to the norm at the 
time. There have been occasional solar flares which generate aurora and 
degrade HF propagation, but it has followed the normal course of previous 
sunspot cycles.

I'll post a note here if I DO notice anyting unusual.

Zack (W9SZ)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:28:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19849;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:22:43 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <348C768D.BD72A231 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 01:37:01 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GtDui1.0._r4.9z8Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13557
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For give me for this question but,
  Is this motor assumed be NOT energy conservative?

On textbooks it is accepted the difference of states of a electrostatic system due to change of capacitance but preserving the charge, have different energies and the difference could be a mechanical work, if the capacitance is mechanically altered.

U1 = 1/2 Q^2/C1
U2 = 1/2 Q^2/C2

U1 - U2 = mechanical work to change the capacitance C1 to C2
Q is the charge remain constant

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:30:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13911;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:25:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:25:00 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:07:15 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com,
        jdunn ctc.org, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com,
        g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com, tchubb@aol.com,
        yekim physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        storms ix.netcom.com, 76002.1473@compuserve.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, eureka@bright.net,
        JNaudin509 denmark.it.earthlink.net, nick7@itl.net, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        ceti_gcollins msn.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net
Subject: Re: Radwaste Remediation: Renewed offer to CERN re LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor
In-Reply-To: <348C6E30.4FDD earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971208190645.9945A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"XkMR11.0.BP3.Q_8Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13558
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Can someone please put this as ASCII?


			Thanks

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:43:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21947;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:39:18 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:39:18 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <1ac5af42.348c8f1f aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:46:54 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Meyer effect?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"fwM6s2.0.qM5.pC9Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13559
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I put a spark plug in the end of a transparant tygon tube and filled the tube
with water.  Then I pressurized the tube to 80 PSI with an air compressor.  I
removed the air pressure, nothing happened.  I fired the spark pulg.  Millions
of tiney bubbles came off.  It looked like Myer's effect except it was air
coming out of solution.  On the second firing, nothing happened.  It was fun.
If you really want to see it its in my movie.  

 <A HREF="http://www.4link.net/~pluto/alternat.html">pluto films</A> 

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 16:43:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16804;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:42:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:42:20 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007811b0b24518064f [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:46:51 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"lAN_x1.0.T64.gF9Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13560
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I take it the point of Jim's experiment is that there is no phase shift
between input and output end of the coax line, hence propagation speed must
be greater than c.  There are several problems with this expt that must be
addressed before one can take this conclusion as proved.

1. The outer conductor of the coax is not grounded. Therefore, the 75 m
loop of coax is a large antenna. The scope and its probes are all in its
field. You must _show_ that the signal(s) arive by the long path that you
assume, vs. the antenna near field. If you replace the coax by a lumped
capacitor of the same value, radiation will be very small at these
frequencies, and I am sure you will see a dispersed and delayed signal at
the output side, which result strongly implicates the radiation problem
described above.

2. Your system is a damped resonator, and you use a periodic signal. You
cannot talk about a propagation speed in such a system. You must use an
isolated pulse.

3. You use a periodic signal. At best you can measure only phase velocity
with such a setup. Group velocity is what counts. You must use a pulse.

4. How is scope triggered? Does your setup show the usual delay when the
coax is connected in the normal way?

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:22:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26939;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:18:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:18:23 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b249bac747 [199.237.131.223]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:19:48 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Vacuum Capacitance and Capacitor motor
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"8X9ny3.0.ra6.Sn9Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13561
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:42 PM 12/8/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>        {I don't like this word and am only using it because you have!}
>
>
>        Problem:
>
>        It requires current to charge caps.
>
>        This is not a 'problem' ... just how it is!
>
>                                J


The only charging on the motor occurs when the capactance is very low, so
very little current is required. A higher voltage, thus more energy, is
therefore required to get a given Q. However, the amount of Q is not the
issue for over unity.


I suggest the problem is that as the plates come together the *voltage
drops*, even though Q remains constant. I think the reason for this is that
the opposing charges on opposite plates attract each other, and thus reduce
the potential available to push themselves off the plates and to come
together via a circuit connnecting the plates.  At least that sems relevent
to the intital problem:


At 6:27 AM 12/3/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:

>
>The vacuum capacitance of two plates of 1.0E-4 m^2 area at some initial
>potential V separated by a distance d;
>C = 8.84E-16/d.
>
>Since energy w = .5 CV^2 as the plates are "pushed" together (by the vacuum
>energy) the capacitance C must increase while the potential V must decrease
>to maintain the initial energy w constant. Thus if there was 1.414
>(2^1/2) volts potential on the plates separated 8.84E-6 meters initially, w
>would be 1.0E-10 joules.
>
>Then as the plates move together to a separation of 1.0E-6
>meters the capacitance would increase to 8.84E-10 farads and now w =
>8.84E-10 joules if the potential remained at
>(2)^1/2 volts, a gain in energy of 8.84E-10 joules from the ZPE force?
>


It is curious that there appears to be a difference in the amount of
charge, current, and energy involved, between the case where one plate is
grounded and when neither is grounded.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:27:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27942;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:23:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:23:30 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110705b0b24d49577d [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971206121520.26433C-100000 eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:22:20 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Ungarbled sono story
Resent-Message-ID: <"XtTQg.0.Vq6.Es9Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13563
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Science News (Dec 6 97) has an article on the 'sono story'
online at http://www.sciencenews.org/sn_arc97/12_6_97/fob3.htm

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:26:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24670;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:22:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:22:03 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:16:55 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712090116.TAA02059 natasha.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"pPMgR3.0.I16.vq9Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13562
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace falls blissfully into the o-u energy trap....<g>  Hamdi's figured it out.

If the plates have C1 capacitance when apart and C2 capacitance when
together, then the stored energy when together will be C1/C2 of the stored
energy when apart.  If C2 is bigger than C1 the stored energy is LESS when
they are together, not more.

This possibly counterintuitive result can be "felt" by realizing that Charge
Is Conserved.  When apart, a charge Q is applied to the plates at voltage V.
Q is given by C1*V.  When the plates move together, Q stays the same so V
has to drop as C rises from C1 to C2.  Since E = 0.5*C*V^2 it is readily
apparent that E will drop since C and V are changing linearly.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:39:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26786;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:36:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:36:54 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b0b24d4c9df2 [199.237.131.246]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:38:45 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"QcGVF3.0.NY6.q2AZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13564
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:37 AM 12/9/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>For give me for this question but,
>  Is this motor assumed be NOT energy conservative?
>
>On textbooks it is accepted the difference of states of a electrostatic
>system due to change of capacitance but preserving the charge, have
>different energies and the difference could be a mechanical work, if the
>capacitance is mechanically altered.
>
>U1 = 1/2 Q^2/C1
>U2 = 1/2 Q^2/C2
>
>U1 - U2 = mechanical work to change the capacitance C1 to C2
>Q is the charge remain constant
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar


Yes, when the capacitance increases in the motor mechanical work U1 - U2 is
done on the armature and the voltage between the plates drops
correspondingly.  This is energy conservative.  Of course if the plates are
close enough togehter then ZPE (the Casimir force) pulls the plates
together somewhat, so then the energy is out of balance, but it eventually
all balances when you try to pull the plates apart against the Casimir
force.

If the stator plates are grounded, then current is drawn by the stator
plates from ground as charge is induced upon them by the armature plate.
Work can be accomplished during the drawing of the charge from ground,
however the armature gets correspondingly less kinetic energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:46:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27595;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:42:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:42:28 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110706b0b251133b79 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <199712081243_MC2-2B2D-F10A compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:42:05 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Stan Meyer Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"pc3ZJ2.0.5l6.38AZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13565
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Historically, many important inventors and technologists have run unnecessary
>risks. I think Diesel and Parsons ran prototype engines harder, faster and

a few months ago on a local (boston) radio talk-show, the guest was a
Harvard prof who had written a book on the history of scientific equipment.
at one point, the host said something like, "so what you seem to be saying
is that you're not *really* a physicist unless you're in danger of blowing
yourself up."

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 17:56:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01296;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:50:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:50:25 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:49:25 -0800
Message-Id: <199712090149.RAA16032 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood
Resent-Message-ID: <"4FgZ-.0.AK.VFAZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13566
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Any body know of another web site discussing this in more technical detail?

Ross Tessien


>John E. Steck wrote:
>> 
>> Morning Edition for Wednesday, December 03, 1997
> InfoBeat <news infobeat.com>
> 
> *** Black hole explodes right in our neighborhood
> 
>  ...
> 
> John E. Steck, Prototype Tooling.  Motorola Inc.
> 
> "Astronomers said Tuesday (12-2-97) they had captured the image of
> an exploding black hole in Earth's Milky Way galaxy. They used radio
> telescopes across Britain to capture the explosion predicted by
> Einstein's theories. The scientists, at Britain's Nuffield Radio
> Astronomy Laboratory, said the black hole is at the center of a
> "micro-quasar" called GRS1915 in the constellation of Aquila the
> Eagle. It is only about 40,000 light-years away. The international team
> used MERLIN (the Multi Element Radio Linked Interferometer
> Network), made up of 6 radio telescopes spread out across England.
> See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6261377-bcc"
> 
> My source comments on the above news release as follows:
> 
> "What they detected is the explosion of an embryonic star which
> formed from the radiation called space and exploded under the
> increasing density of the radiation called space."
> 
> Jack Smith
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 18:47:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29734;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:17:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:17:00 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Dewar flasks used by Arata & Zhang and Cravens
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:15:43 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971208232103181.AAA256 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"DF88I1.0.NG7.f_7Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13554
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Once again Rich Murray is demonstrating his lack of understanding of the
A&Z experiment. He  invoked the Jones paper with the admonition: 

>To those of you who need to hear this, I command thee, by the authority
>of the one, to listen intently and deeply, not only to these words and
>the following excellent critical offering, but to the quieter
>comprehension within.

I hold a mirror up to him, that he should invoke the same standard to
himself. 

I have dealt at length with the A&Z paper, and will not repeat all of what
has been posted. I have also posted scans of Fig. 5 of the A&Z paper, which
Rich continues to misinterpret. I will quote his latest quotation from an
earlier post of his, with comment.
 
> Dear all,     Arata & Zhang's long paper has a diagram, clearly showing
> a vacuum flask. 

Indeed they do. 

> I quote from my summary of Shelton's report on calorimeter errors in
> cold fusion research:
> 
> E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
> calorimetry:
> 
> The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment
> must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same
> during experiment as during calibration.

Fig. 5 of A&Z shows a Dewar flask, closed by a cap, with a body of
recombination catalyst. The electrolyte fills about half the flask. Cooling
water circulates through tubing in a helical coil about half the internal
diameter of the flask, with five of seven turns submerged in the
electrolyte. Cooling fluid enters and leaves through tight-fitting holes in
the cap. Measurement of the temperature of the cooling water is measured by
thermocouples immersed in the water at the intake and exit points. The top
of the cathode capsule is even with the bottom of the cooling water helix.
The cathode capsule diameter is one-quarter that of the cooling coil. 

The Pt anode is a cylinder the same height as the cathode capsule and the
same diameter as the cooling coil helix. 

The configuration is the same for calibration and test runs. The only
difference is that a Pt cathode of the same surface area as the Pd cathode
is used for calibration. 

> The measured delta T must be the actual value.

The thermocouples signals are subtracted and to get a delta T, which
directly measures the heat produced, since the whole cell is inside a dewar
flask and the only other thermal paths out are through leads to the anode,
cathode, and three other thermocouples whose readings are not used as part
of the heat measurement. 

> The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small.

There is convection circulation within the cell, and a large area between
the surface of the circulating water helix and the electrolyte. On the time
scale of the A&Z experiment (hundreds of hours), the thermal time constant
is negligible. 

> The delta T should not change very quickly.

This is in relation to the time constant of the experiment. The data graphs
show essentially vertical lines in places, on a scale of 400 hours/inch in
one case and 2300 hours/inch in another. It is impossible to say exactly
how fast the process heat changed in relation to the thermal time constant
of the calorimeter, but the data indicate that the process heat is being
tracked. 
 
> The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  

This, from Jones, is a strawman generality. An honest review would cite
specific experiments which violate the asserted principles and what manner.


>The cell is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
> constant to be large. 

This is an incorrect assertion in the A&Z case, for example, because the
process is cooled by circulating water inside the helix inside the dewar
flask. 

>This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
> interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results. [my language] 

Rich is still trying to invalidate the A&Z calorimetry. I have shown that
the calibration procedure shows that the noise contributed by the
calorimetry is much less than the variations in heat generated by the CF
reactions. He grasps at straws, including Jones' strawman. There is nothing
in the calorimetry setup which "guarantees jumpy, erratic...inaccurate,
poorly understood results". The one correct adjective is that the data
variations are interesting. There are two aspects to "poorly understood
results". The first is Rich's evident inability to understand and apply
physical principles to the configuration of Fig 5 with respect to
calorimetry considerations. The second aspect is the detailed nature of the
physical processes producing the heat within the cathode capsule. That is a
fit subject for further research, but has no bearing on the validity of the
results presented; 1) generation of substantial excess energy, and 2)
direct association of this energy production with the appearance of nuclear
ash, namely 3He and 4He.

> Shelton calculates in detail that Dewar flasks can have as much heat
> loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
> which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.  There is usually
> much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads
> and tubes.

That's all very well, but such effects are included in the calibration. And
in the case of A&Z, the heat path out through the cooling water helix is
much, much, the more substantial than the ones calculated by Shelton, or
through the leads mentioned above. This is another bit of misdirection.
Rich should know as much.

> "...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures
> measured at single points in each. Any thermal gradients present in the
> solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results.  

Irrelevant for A&Z. The single points are thermocouples immersed in a
flowing cooling water circulating through a seven-turn helix immersed in an
electrolyte mixed by convection and bubbling. 

> This systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat'
in
> flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...

Irrelevant for A&Z for reasons given.

Jones moves the goalposts by introducing a new requirement, calibration by
some well-characterized chemical reaction in addition to normal
calibrations by a Joule heater. Such chemical calibrations introduce new
variables to be discussed. I do not know that such are demanded in any
other calorimetric procedure. In any case this new requirement is met in
the A&Z case, for the calibration is by electrolysis in the same cell, only
using a Pt cathode instead of a Pd cathode. The Pt electrolysis is indeed
an equivalent and similar and well characterized electrochemical reaction. 

The deeper truth for Rich to contemplate is that each experiment is a
separate question asked of Nature, who always answers truthfully. Men
generalize from experimental instances at their peril. Inferences drawn
from Jones' calorimetry experiment do not necessarily apply to other
experiments. Only specifics lead to scientific truth. 

Rich, the A&Z calorimetry satisfies the criteria laid down by Calvet. Are
you no ready to accept the measurements as being valid? 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 19:10:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09297;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:06:15 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:00:03 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
In-Reply-To: <199712090116.TAA02059 natasha.eden.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971208215929.18717A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"PawpD1.0.BH2.bMBZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13567
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Scott,

	Re comments on cap motor....
			Thanks.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 19:56:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16009;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
Cc: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Capacitance of Space and Circular String Particles
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:47:21 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0455$27e9b1c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zw6dB3.0._v3.R0CZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13568
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
To: Frederick J. Sparber <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: The Capacitance of Space and Circular String Particles


>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:53:19 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>
>>Hi Robin,you wrote:
>>
>>> I think that the math works equally well for the formula
>>> C = 4*PI*eo*r, which is the capacitance of a sphere.
>>
>>Good. eo is given as 8.84E-12 farads/meter, thus is a
>>one-dimensional (length only)property.
>>
>>An infinite number of one-dimensional radius lines of
>>length r "radiating" from the center to the surface of a sphere will give
>>the capacitance of one line for the whole sphere, won't it?     :-)
>[snip]
>Wouldn't you expect all those radial lines to be parallel capacitors?

No? String theory says that the srings have "no
dimension other than Length".

The capacitance of space (eo)is 8.84E-12 farads/meter,or
coulombs/newton-meter^2, or coulombs/joule-meter (under
static conditions). If you put a surface such as a
pair of plates separated at a distance s with a vacuum dielectric this
capacitance is C = 8.84E-12*area/s and the force on the plates F = dW/ds =
.5V^2*dC/ds. In other words
when you introduce external materials you change the name
of the game.

A sphere with "radiating" strings each independently possessing capacitance
(eo)8.84E-12 farads/meter should give the sphere a capacitance of 4(pi)*eo*r
farads.

If the sphere surface-configuration wasn't there the capacitance measured
from point A to point B at a distance equal to the radius r of the sphere
with electrodes of infinitely small radius the capacitance would be
8.84E-12*the area of the electrodes/ the distance A to B ie., s or r. This
is completely opposite the energy W contained in a particle in the vacuum
where W = .5*q^2/2(pi)*r*eo which is saying as the distance
s or r ie., the radius of a circularized one-dimensional string gets smaller
the energy gets larger, if the radius gets down to the "Planck Radius" about
1.0E-35 meters, the energy of this "singularity" or "Black Hole" is about
1.5E26 electron volts or about 23 Megajoules.

Since +/- q = CV and W = .5*q^2/C or .5CV^2, I have no problem with the
string theory idea that the 5th dimension of space "curls up" to a
one-dimensional (length only)
entity-string, and that this when "coiled" into a circle with radius r makes
a particle with energy
W = .5q^2/2(pi)r*eo.

Put another way W = ,5 CV^2, as C gets smaller V^2 has to
get larger and q = CV which means that as C gets smaller
V gets larger and the charge +/- q on any particle is constant at 1.602E-19
Coulombs.

>Yet this clearly isn't so. So maybe you are trying to extract to much
>info. from the dimensionality of the variable.
>An analogous situation arises with conductance (specific resistance?)
>of a metal, where area/length results in a linear variable.
>I don't think one can draw the conclusions you draw, without looking
>at the history of the variable in question (eo in this case).

The "history of the variable" (eo)is what you measure in our uncurled
Universe. With 5 dimensions x,y,z,t,and t'? to worry about why quibble over
the "geodesic" sphere?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
>Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on
>temperature.
>"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
>PS - no SPAM thanks!
>-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 20:04:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22282;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:56:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:56:55 -0800
Message-Id: <348CA8FB.91FA5DD4 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 05:12:11 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Radwaste Remediation: ... (John - format issues)
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971208190645.9945A-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vjTCY.0.4S5.66CZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13569
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
>         Can someone please put this as ASCII?
> 
>                         Thanks

Actually this strange format is generated by Netscape if the option is
selected. (I don't know others mailer could do this) This duplicate the
mail in both ASCII and both HTML. So 2 KB mail become 10K. Not a good
format for lists. Actually, the good ASCII part is on top and the
garbage comes next.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 20:09:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22991;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:01:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:01:08 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:59:39 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0456$dfc88180$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"63siN1.0.8d5.2ACZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13570
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, December 08, 1997 6:26 PM
Subject: Capacitor motor


>Horace falls blissfully into the o-u energy trap....<g>  Hamdi's figured it
out.
>
>If the plates have C1 capacitance when apart and C2 capacitance when
>together, then the stored energy when together will be C1/C2 of the stored
>energy when apart.  If C2 is bigger than C1 the stored energy is LESS when
>they are together, not more.
>
>This possibly counterintuitive result can be "felt" by realizing that
Charge
>Is Conserved.  When apart, a charge Q is applied to the plates at voltage
V.
>Q is given by C1*V.  When the plates move together, Q stays the same so V
>has to drop as C rises from C1 to C2.  Since E = 0.5*C*V^2 it is readily
>apparent that E will drop since C and V are changing linearly.

Yup, dW/ds = .5V^2*dC/ds  = force betwixt the plates too.

I think Horace is hot on the trail of an Electrostatic SEOT  something like
a SMOT.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Scott Little
>EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX)
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 20:24:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27049;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:19:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:19:56 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:14:30 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Radwaste Remediation: ... (John - format issues)
In-Reply-To: <348CA8FB.91FA5DD4 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971208231308.22178B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"hVhmW1.0.Uc6.fRCZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13571
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Hamdi,

	Thank you for letting me know.  I am curious as to who at Pirreli 
[? sp] of what group bought the cell.  I thought they were tires!

					J



On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 
> >         Can someone please put this as ASCII?
> > 
> >                         Thanks
> 
> Actually this strange format is generated by Netscape if the option is
> selected. (I don't know others mailer could do this) This duplicate the
> mail in both ASCII and both HTML. So 2 KB mail become 10K. Not a good
> format for lists. Actually, the good ASCII part is on top and the
> garbage comes next.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 21:30:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29173;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:27:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:27:27 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b286e2e0eb [199.237.131.246]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:28:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Capacitor motor
Resent-Message-ID: <"tHzHB2.0.h77.xQDZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13572
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:59 PM 12/8/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
[snip]
>>Horace falls blissfully into the o-u energy trap....<g>  Hamdi's figured it
>out.
[snip]
>I think Horace is hot on the trail of an Electrostatic SEOT  something like
>a SMOT.  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick


Blissful yes, SMOT'alec, no!   8^)

Hmmm... maybe with some fine adjusting ...

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec  8 21:54:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11989;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:50:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:50:17 -0800
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:52:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007811b0b24518064f [198.133.146.230]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971208214934.27360A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"pAj7t3.0.Ex2.OmDZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13573
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote:

> I take it the point of Jim's experiment is that there is no phase shift
> between input and output end of the coax line, hence propagation speed must
> be greater than c.  There are several problems with this expt that must be
> addressed before one can take this conclusion as proved.
>
> 1. The outer conductor of the coax is not grounded. Therefore, the 75 m
> loop of coax is a large antenna.

    Exactly.


>                                   The scope and its probes are all in its
> field. You must _show_ that the signal(s) arive by the long path that you
> assume, vs. the antenna near field.

    The  scope  probes  are  shielded  and the shielding is grounded to the
    scope frame , which was itself earth grounded. I assume an antenna does
    not interact with itself , since it is creating the field you mention.


>                                   If you replace the coax by a lumped
> capacitor of the same value, radiation will be very small at these
> frequencies,

    "small" as in lower field strength or dimensionally  more  confined?  I
    can  agree  with  the latter case but assuming similar output levels of
    the generators the field strength should be the same from the viewpoint
    of a separate antenna placed the same distance from the center  of  the
    radiating surfaces.


>           and I am sure you will see a dispersed and delayed signal at
> the output side,


    Wrong .  It  can  be  shown  that at least for lumped circuit elements
    at resonance delays will sum to zero.

    This will require a little mathematical explanation but it shouldn't be
    too hard to follow .  Here we go.....

                      Accounting delays at resonance

     A  capacitor  is  a  device  for  storing  electrical  charge and the
    associated  electrostatic  potential  energy.  It's  capacitance  C  is
    defined  as  the  measure  of  charge q applied to the capacitor plates
    divided by the measure of the voltage potential  difference  that  this
    charge produces.:

    C = q/Vc                       eq. 4

    Therefore:
                                   eq. 5
    Vc = q/C

    The action of the coil needs a little more detail in it's description.
    Under  DC  conditions  the  coil  offers  no  opposition to the flow of
    current (remember were ignoring damping resistance R  for now).

    But if the current is changing with time it is found that the  inductor
    acts  to  oppose  that  change  (Lenz's Law). Under these circumstances
    there is a voltage  difference Vl between the ends of the inductor  and
    this  voltage  is  proportional to the rate of change of the current i.
    The inductance L is defined by the relation

    Vl = L di/dt                     eq. 6

    This equation says that a voltage Vl must be applied to the ends of the
    inductor in order to make the current change at the rate di/dt.

    In a circuit made up of just these two components, , the sum Vl and  Vc
    must  be  zero , because an imaginary journey through the capacitor and
    then the inductor brings us back to the same point  in  the  circuit  ,
    thus we have

    q/C + L di/dt = 0                  eq. 7

    Now  there  is  an  intimate  connection  between  q and i ,because the
    current in the circuit is just the rate of  flow  of  charge  past  any
    point.  A  current  i  flowing for a time dt in the wire connected to a
    capacitor  plate  will  increase  the charge on that plate by the amount
    dq = i dt , so we have

    i = dq/dt                          eq. 8

    di/dt = d^2 q / dt^2

    So eq, 7 can be written:

    L * d^2q/dt^2 + 1/C * q = 0

    But this is just like  the  differential  equation  for  a  mass-spring
    system  ,with  q  playing the role of x ,L  appearing in the place of m
    and 1/C replacing the spring constant k. We can confidently assume  the
    existance of free electrical oscillations such that

    Wo = 1/sqrt LC                         eq. 9


    NOW let's consider the effect of introducing a resistor of resistance R
    as in figure 1(a). At current i it is necessary have a voltage V across
    the resistor (=iR)...( Ohm's Law )


      Let's  look  at  this  statement  of  zero net voltage drop in in one
    complete tour of the circuit as follows:

    fig 1 (a)

        i
       --->   C
      ________||____________
     |        ||            |
     |    +q      -q        |                 Capacitor ,inductor and
     |                      \  |              reistor in series
     |                      /  | i
     |                  R   \  |
     |                      /  V
     |                      \
     |____     L       _____|
          UUUUUUUUUUUUU
              <---
                i

    (b)
        i
       --->   C
      ________||____________
     |        ||            |
     o   +q      -q         |
     ^                      \  |              capacitor ,inductor and
 Vo cos wt                  /  | i            resistor in series ,driven
                        R   \  |              by a sinusoidal voltage
     v                      /  V
     o                      \
     |____     L       _____|
          UUUUUUUUUUUUU
              <---
                i

    q/C + iR +  (L* di/dt) = 0

             i.e. ,

    (L * d^2/q /dt^2) + (R * dq/dt) + 1/C q = 0

              OR

    d^2q/dt^2 + R/L dq/dt + (1/LC)*q = 0


    Therefore , all delays and voltages sum to zero in the resonant system.

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------


>    which result strongly implicates the radiation problem
> described above.
>

    What problem would that be?


> 2. Your system is a damped resonator,

    Precicely.


>                               and you use a periodic signal. You
> cannot talk about a propagation speed in such a system. You must use an
> isolated pulse.
>

    Why?


> 3. You use a periodic signal. At best you can measure only phase velocity
> with such a setup. Group velocity is what counts. You must use a pulse.
>

     Oh .  Well I guess by that you mean my signal output could be  one  or
    more  complete  cycles delayed from the input and I would never know it
    from looking at the resulting scope display .  That's why  I  used  the
    dual scope setup (analog and digital) and deliberately chose a 75 meter
    length  of  coax  so  any delays due to alleged light speed limitations
    would show up as a one quarter wavelength phase displacement at 1 mhz.

      The  digital  scope's  sampling  method gives us a statistical way of
    showing that the GROUP delay is zero also . Look at  the  scope  screen
    print  from  my experiment carefully . The waveform distortions evident
    in both traces are  not  exactly  the  same  but  are  near  completely
    analogous .

     This  is  because  the  digital scope uses equivalent time sampling at
    this frequency / sweep rate. The advantage for  statistical  evaluation
    of group delays becomes clear when you realize that each sample of both
    channel  inputs  is  taken  SIMULTANEOUSLY. When the input amplitude or
    rise/fall slope drifts over a fairly long  period  of  time  (the  duty
    cycle  of the scope's construction of the display) a distorted waveform
    will result. If there was a one (or more) complete  cycle  group  delay
    the distortions would not be analogous AND time coincident .


> 4. How is scope triggered?

    The  digital  scope  was  triggered on a .5 positive voltage rise of the
    output channel on that particular take.

 >   Does your setup show the usual delay when the
 >    coax is connected in the normal way?

    In what normal way?


    A  control experiment was performed  to  verify  the  ability  of  both
    scopes  to  detect  and  quantify  an expected phase shift at the sweep
    rate used in the experiment .  An  abbreviated  snip  of  that  control
    experiment's results is pasted below.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          Control Experiment - expected reactance phase shift measurements:

    Equipment used:

    B&K 0-2mhz generator
    Heath 0-1.3 mhz generator
    Sencore 100 mhz analog scope
    Heath 4650 digital memory scope



    1. Known value capacitance delays

            _________________________________  Channel A  (trigger)
           |                                              > -scope
    SS1(~)-*--\/\/\/           ______________  Channel B
        | TP1   ^             |
        |       |_____________* TP2
        |                     |
        |                   -----
        |                   -----         Cap value: _463 pf_
      __|__                 __|__         SS1 freq : _1 mhz_
     / / /                 / / /


    Ohms         Delay between adjacent peaks

    7.7          (not measurable)
    60           .027 usec
    128          .061 usec
    260          .106 usec
    520          .171 usec
    1040         .196 usec


>
> Michael J. Schaffer
> General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
> Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156
>
>

    May  I ask what you do over there at General Atomics? This is a sincere
    inquiry . Would you like a copy of my resume' ?

    ;-)

    J.O.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 00:13:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02415;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:09:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:09:40 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:09:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Our Christmas Gift to YOU! 
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971209010613.26429A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"07sDM1.0.Nb._oFZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13574
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



Our Christmas Recipe to you - from Steve & Laura (T.S.S.) 12/97

                    ** OVEN-DRIED JERKY ** 

  It's been a while (12/1993) since we last sent this recipe out, 
So here's a recipe so good that while you're making it the saliva 
will drip off your chin all the time you're doing it, it smells so 
good.. the finished product has just two things wrong with it: 
1) you eat it too fast & 2) your so-called friends eat it faster! 
Anybody can make the stuff, so my theory is to give them a nibble 
and when they want more, give them the recipe and let them make 
their own. 
  This particular jerky can be made from beef-flank, brisket, lean 
rump roast or top round steak - venison or the white meat from 
chicken or turkey.  Partially freezing the meat makes it easier to 
slice evenly.  Cut with the grain if you want your jerky chewy, 
across the grain for more tender, brittle jerky. 

	1-1/2 to 2 pounds lean boneless meat
	1/4 cup soy sauce (*I like Kikomon's flavor best)
	1 tablespoon Worcestershire (*Lee & Perrins)
	1/4 teaspoon EACH pepper & garlic powder
	1/2 teaspoon onion powder
	1 teaspoon hickory smoke-flavored salt 
                  (liquid smoke with pinch of salt ok too*)

   Trim and discard all fat from the meat (it becomes rancid). Cut 
meat in 1/8 to 1/4 inch thick slices.  If necessary, cut large slices 
to make strips about 1-1/2 inches wide and as long as possible. 
   In a bowl combine soy sauce, Worcestershire, pepper, garlic powder, 
onion powder and smoke-flavored salt.  Stir until seasonings are 
dissolved.  Add all the the meat strips and work them thoroughly into 
the mixture until all surfaces are well coated. (chop sticks or forks 
will do but I use my cleaned fingers:)  The meat will absorb most, if 
not all, the liquid. Cover tightly and let stand overnight in the 
refrigerator. Or you can let stand one hour and proceed.
   Shake off any excess liquid, arrange strips of meat close together, 
but no overlapping, directly on oven racks or cake rakes set in 
shallow, rimmed pans.  Dry meat in oven at the lowest possible setting 
150 degrees to 200 degrees (F) Flip every hour or two - until it feels 
hard and is dry to the  touch - 5 hours for chicken & turkey, 4 to 7 
hours for beef and vension. Pat off any beads of oil.  Cool and store 
in airtight plastic bags or in jars with tight fitting lids.  Keeps 
in refrigerator or at room temperature indefinitely.
   AND, MAN!! IS IT EVER GOOD!!!
   Personally, I like garlic buds the best- if you have one of those 
herb mortar and pestle things of glass, metal or ceramic, mash up a 
finely diced garlic bud with the pepper, onion powder and hickory- 
smoked salt until it is a greyish mess. To this add the liquids and 
proceed. 
   Such food is the greatest on hunting and fishing trips - nothing 
but highly flavored protein - and for nibbling on  when reading books 
at home or watching ball games - or anytime, it is the best there is.

                  -Steve Ekwall & Laura Conlon- 

             **   Merry Christmas World  1997 :)   **


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 02:51:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24126;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:46:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:46:55 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Capacitor Motor
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:44:40 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd048f$741660e0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZkLm.0.uu5.U6IZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13575
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace wrote:

>Am I flim flamming you, Fred?   8^)

Nope. But are you flim flamming, yourself?   :-)

When the capacitor plates change spacing the change of mechanical work,
dW/ds = .5V^2* dC/ds = force, also involves a displacement current, I, which
is at the very heart of electromagnetic phenomena, I = C dV/dt.

Which means that if you mechanically drive the variation of plate spacing
you will "induce" a magnetic component and end up with a transmitted EM
signal which can be detected with a receiver and fed back into the "drive
motor", hence
an electromechanical oscillator of sorts.   :-)

Now on adding to this is a unidirectional ZPE component that will give you
about the same energy "return on investment" as a SMOT. (Which is TOMS
spelled backwards and goes nicely with SEOT which is TOES spelled
backwards)so...
TOMS TOES sort of go together, don't they?    :-)

Best Regards,      Frederick



From vortex-l-request ESKIMO.COM  Tue Dec  9 05:35:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA30172;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:29:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:29:32 -0800
Message-Id: <199712091129.FAA23658 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l ESKIMO.COM
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 05:29:59 (-050
Subject: Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <971208092506.ZM1299 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>
References: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>        "Re: Colliding feam fusion reactor" (Dec  6,  4:36pm)
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"kPYDJ.0.MN7.SkIZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13576
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John,

> From:          "John E. Steck" <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
> Date:          Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:25:06 -0600
 
> Trying to visualize this.  Can it be that they are trying to induce a plasma
> vortex in the containment vessel, curving the orbits inward towards a locus of
> highest orbit collision certainty?  Could be an effective way to overcome
> Coulomb field repulsion.

Have you looked into Charles Cagle's hypothesis?  He says he has a 
way of producing scalable fusion-electric generators.  Here's a summary 
of one point:   
  --------------------------------------------------

This physics depends upon the reality that Coulomb's Law is, in fact, a
'special case' which describes the interactions of charged particles only
when they meet specific criteria. The 'General Case' , which is
established by this physics, specifies all charged particle interactions,
the general expression of which in four simple parts is:

1) "If like charged particles have a common de Broglie wavelength greater
than or equal to the interparticle distance then they will attractively
interact."

2) "If unlike charged particles have a common de Broglie wavelength
greater than or equal to the interparticle distance then they will
repulsively interact."

3) "If like charged particles have a common de Broglie wavelength less
than the interparticle distance then they will repulsively interact."

4) "If unlike charged particles have a common de Broglie wavelength less
than the interparticle distance then they will attractively interact."

Parts three and four correspond to Coulomb's Law but they are subsumed
under the 'General Case' .

This 'General Case' is part of the foundation for a new and Apocalyptic
Physics. 
  ----------------------------------------------------------

The fuller explanation is at:
     http://www.teleport.com/~singtech/Apocal.html 

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 06:13:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19361;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:08:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:08:44 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:53:21 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Safety in R&D
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712090857_MC2-2B46-7C10 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"gW-bQ.0.Mk4.a3LZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13577
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I wrote that important inventors and technologists have run unnecessary risks.
John Logajan takes exception:

     Since these are invariably unknown risks, I couldn't disagree more.

Not invariably! Not in the specific instances I cited:  Diesel, Parsons,
Edison and the Wrights. I have it on the best authority that the Wrights were
foolhardy on December 17, 1903. Ten years later Orville wrote:

     With all the knowledge and skill acquired in thousands of flights in the
     last ten years, I would hardly think today of making my first flight on
     a strange machine in a twenty-seven-mile wind, even if I knew that the
     machine had already been flown and was safe. After these years of
     experience I look with amazement upon our audacity in attempting flights
     with a new and untried machine under such circumstances!

The Wrights risked their lives on countless other occasions facing unknown
risks, but in this case it would have been more rational to wait. But they
were running out of time and money, and the weather at Kitty Hawk deteriorates
at this time of year. Actually, it would have been rational to fly the
previous day when conditions were perfect, but it was Sunday and they never
broke the Sabbath. (That was out of respect for their father, I think, because
after he and Wilbur died Orville did not attend church or show any interest in
religion.)


     When safety is obvious or anticipation of low probability events are low
     cost, who could dispute taking the safe way.  But dragging ones feet in
     development or burdening development with ultra-low-risk safeguards may
     protect lives locally, but at a cost of many more lives lost globally.

I agree. But the examples I cited were violations of common sense safety. You
can go too far in either direction.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 07:20:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26579;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:15:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:15:59 -0800
Message-ID: <348D52D0.35B7 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 08:16:48 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu,
        jdunn ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com,
        g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, dennis@wazoo.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, z@cyber.com,
        droege fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        rdeagleton csupomona.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, kurtz@imap2.ASU.EDU, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, eureka@bright.net, gvpinc@aol.com,
        JNaudin509 aol.com, nick7@itl.net, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        zhang jwri.osaka-u.ac.jp, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov
Subject: RadWaste Remediation (email form)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"M8br7.0.7V6.k2MZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13578
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject:  Radwaste Remediation: Renewed offer to CERN re LENT-1
Transmutation Reactor
  Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:38:00 -0800
  From:  Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>
    To: "Douglas Morrison" <drom vxcern.cern.ch>
    CC: "Stan Gleeson" <cincygrp ix.netcom.com>

Dr. Douglas R. O. Morrison 
CERN
 
Subject: Renewed offer re Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT)
                Reactor Kit LENT-1 for Radwaste Remediation
                (Now being sold with "Moneyback Guarantee" of Results.) 
[Just found to give 83% Radioactivity Reduction from 0.1 gm Thorium at
                 Romania's Institute for Isotopic Technology] 
 
Dear Dr. Morrison,
        I hope that your "whirlwind trip" to Russia was successful. 
        I am again offering to ask the CG to lend you, for test at CERN, 
a complete LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor.
        They loaned one to the Institute of Isotopic Technology and
just got the following Preliminary Report from Dr. Peter Glueck,
according to which _their_ nuclear physicists reported that 83% of 
the Thorium had disappeared within 45 minutes at an energy-cost 
of less than 5 cents. 
        Hal Fox has now published 3 papers (in Journal of New
Energy, and in the New Energy Newsletter) on his & Dr. Jin's
"successfull" accomplishment of 20 successive runs.  He has 
made a Training Videotape of how to run with no mistakes 
and has also written a Tutorial Manual.  He has sold several 
LENT-1 Reactors (such as to Nevada Power & Light, and 
in Eastern Europe, and in Asia) for testing purposes. 
            The CG themselves have sold one Kit to Pirelli in
Milan and have loaned several others to various European
labs, following their recent well-received presentation to the 
Third ASTI workshop on Anomalous Effects in Deuterated 
Metals at Asti, Italy. 
            Regards,
                            Bob Bass   
=========================== 
Here is today's report from the Inst. for Isotopic Technology: 
=========================== 
Dear Friends,
As told, Manu Surducan and I made the first test with the CINCY CELL
trying to reproduce closely the Protocol from IE 13/14. Had some
unpleasant surprises but had finished the test and got a quite
significant radioactivity reduction.
I dare to state that I have understood the basic idea of the Protocol:
due to consuming of the initial charge carriers (or changing of the
conduction mechanism) the current is diminishing and this has to be 
compensated by steadily increasing of the voltage. Probably the more
experienced colleagues know when the desired LENT processes take place.

The parameters are depending on the geometry of the cell--disk electrode
wall gap etc., therefore our values for current, temperature and voltage
(the controlling factor) are not identical with those from the protocol.
In accordance with the discussions with Stan and Don, the cell was
placed
on an aluminum block and was cooled with air blowed by a small fan,
quite
efficiently. My engineering instinct told me that the focus has to be on
safety, this cooling doesn't have great effect on what happens in the
reaction zone (have seen this zone at the CG's extraordinary video made
with a cell having polycarbonate flanges!).
The thermocouple is placed on the part opposite to the entrance of
cooling 
air.

Time (min)     Current (amp)    Voltage (V)   Temperature (deg C) 

1              1.0               50             17
2              1.0               50             30
3              0.9               50             37
4              1.5               50             47
5              2.4               50             57
6              5.6               50             81

[leakage at the filler plug, changed the teflon tape and..continued)

7              3.2               50              32
8              3.50              50              58
9              3.85              50              78
10             4.67              50              94
11             4.53              50             109
12             4.06              50/63          130
13             4.18              63             130
14             3.08              63/75          138
15             2.90              78.5           144
16             2.54              94             147
17             1.91              94/113         148
18             1.75              113/120        146
19             1.57              134            147
20             1.20              150            142
21             1.13              152            140
22             1.01              184            138
23             1.00              213            140
24             0.87              213            140
25             0.78              213            137
26             0.72              213            133
27             0.64              213            130
28             0.63              213            126
29             0.67              213            126
30             0.67              213            126
31             0.85              213            125
32             0.90              213            125 
33             0.94              213            129
34             0.95              213            135
35             0.85              213            136
36             0.77              213            134
37             0.76              213            130
38             0.76              213            129
39             0.68              213            127
40             0.65              213            125
41             0.66              213            123
42             0.67              213            122
43             0.70              213            122
44             0.70              213            121
45             0.71              213            121
.............................................................

We  have obtained a white solution with some precipitate in it,
apparently without significant losses.
Using a NaJ/Tl crystal detector, calibrated for Th, the nuclear dept.
reported for the two solutions, integrally in two beakers, in a 
1000 seconds standard test:

Original solution: 3.179 counts/sec
Processed solution:0.660 counts/sec 
Background:        0.160 counts/sec

One test =no test say one of my basic rules; tomorow we shall try to
make a second test, in similar conditions (if no advices or suggestions
will arrive till then from you).

I have measured the pH values of the solutions (will measure the ionic
conductivity too as soon as I can!) got 1.9 for the original and 3.2 for
the processed one.
What are the charge carriers---so important for this process?/
Best wishes,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700          
Tel:064-184037/144
Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 
================================== 
forwarded by:
 
=======================================================
Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins]
                        Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof
Physics]
Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending 
                                      Innoventech, Inc.
Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for
          Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g.
                 Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000
                         See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/
P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739
Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213;          e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com
============================================================
============================================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 07:29:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29587;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:25:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:25:42 -0800
Message-Id: <199712091525.JAA06461 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:26:06 (-050
Subject: Re: Meyer effect?
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <1ac5af42.348c8f1f aol.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"cgCK-.0.CE7.rBMZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13579
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Frank,

> From:          FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
> Date:          Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:46:54 EST

> I put a spark plug in the end of a transparant tygon tube and filled the tube
> with water.  Then I pressurized the tube to 80 PSI with an air compressor.  I
> removed the air pressure, nothing happened.  I fired the spark pulg.  Millions
> of tiney bubbles came off.  It looked like Myer's effect except it was air
> coming out of solution.  On the second firing, nothing happened.  It was fun.
> If you really want to see it its in my movie.  

Ah, but did you fire it at 42.8 kHz?

 
-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 07:32:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29857;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:28:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:28:07 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209092737.006ebeb8 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:27:37 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Safety in R&D
In-Reply-To: <199712090857_MC2-2B46-7C10 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"mB0IJ2.0.MI7.3EMZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13580
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 08:53 12/9/97 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>I agree. But the examples I cited were violations of common sense safety. You
>can go too far in either direction.

Yeah, like when I worked for a pretty large company and the safety director
informed me that stainless steel bar stock was on the hazardous material
list because of the Cr content!  When I pointed out that he sucked on a
piece of nicely shaped stainless steel every morning to eat his Wheaties
and suggested that he should remove stainless bar stock from his list...he
said, "No can do"!

I've always wondered if he went out and bought plastic spoons that evening!

Scott






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 07:48:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01890;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:44:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:44:31 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:39:07 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Be right ... Pond ...Re: Meyer effect?
In-Reply-To: <199712091525.JAA06461 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971209103310.12744B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"eXfWk3.0.MT.TTMZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13581
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	Please correct me if I am in error:

	My understanding is that the fellow Pond suggested the spark 
plug, to Meyer and Meyer is supposed to be commercializing it.  And so, 
if in the interests of the history and ethics of science  you talk about it 
you ought to call it the Pond effect.

	If you did not it would maybe be like calling the Nyquist theorem 
the Bell system theorem.  But maybe this would be more generous as Bell 
has always tried to recognize its scientists.


						J

	FRANK:

	Whip out 'the old resonant circuit' and tune up to the 48K range!

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> Hi Frank,
> 
> > From:          FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
> > Date:          Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:46:54 EST
> 
> > I put a spark plug in the end of a transparant tygon tube and filled the tube
> > with water.  Then I pressurized the tube to 80 PSI with an air compressor.  I
> > removed the air pressure, nothing happened.  I fired the spark pulg.  Millions
> > of tiney bubbles came off.  It looked like Myer's effect except it was air
> > coming out of solution.  On the second firing, nothing happened.  It was fun.
> > If you really want to see it its in my movie.  
> 
> Ah, but did you fire it at 42.8 kHz?
> 
>  
> -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 07:50:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02619;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:48:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:48:15 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209094831.0077f2d4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:48:31 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Show a little backbone
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"evywb.0.ie.yWMZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13582
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

There have been some caustic remarks about Rich Murray's postings recently.
 I agree with much of the content of these remarks (e.g. the usual use of
Dewars in CF experimentation) but find the tone unproductive at best.

We're here on Vortex to DISCUSS experimental results...not bicker over
them.  I believe that Rich Murray shares the exact same dream that
possesses the rest of us.  He WANTS to identify a genuine excess energy
experiment and help develop it into a usable energy source.  Consistent
with this desire, he does not want to waste time pursuing a reported effect
for which there is no credible evidence.

I think Rich is providing a valuable service by digging through these
reports and commenting on them.  If you think he's interpreting something
wrong, don't hesitate to correct him but don't castigate him for his
misunderstanding.  I am sure that everyone here on Vortex could benefit
from some thoughtful dissertation on the issues that he and others are
raising. 

Scott


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 09:31:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29238;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:26:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:26:55 -0800
Message-ID: <348D716C.7D16 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 10:27:24 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov,
        dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, rgeorge@hooked.net,
        wireless cmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, ceti@msn.com,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, design73@aol.com,
        jlagarde cyberaccess.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, mcfee@lanl.gov,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com,
        tchubb aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        76002.1473 compuserve.com, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        kurtz imap2.ASU.EDU, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, eureka@bright.net,
        gvpinc aol.com, JNaudin509@aol.com, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov
Subject: Murray: re calorimetry; Carrell, Rothwell, Little 
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------79A1F2D1E53"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LHo5Z3.0.Z87.SzNZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13583
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------79A1F2D1E53
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 9, 1997

Dear all,    I am very pleased to forward  excellent, lucid,
even-tempered discussions of calorimetry by Rothwell and Carrell. 
First, here is Rothwell's post:

Subject: Dewar cells
 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:45:15 -0500
       From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
To: Vortex; >INTERNET:little eden.com

I wrote that I have never seen a Dewar flask used as a CF cell, and that
"Shelton went to the trouble to do these calculations even though nobody
uses Dewar flasks." Then I quoted Martin Fleischmann's comment:

     In this particular case he [Morrison] could equally well have said
     "glass Dewar vessels silvered in their top portion" (which is
accurate) rather than "small transparent test tubes" (which is not).

Scott Little responded:

     I politely suggest that there might be a contradiction above re
Dewar flasks.  Of course, I could be mistaken.

I do not see any contradiction, and I do not recall anyone who uses
Dewars. Do you, Scott? I do not necessarily remember every paper in the
literature. As far as I know, nobody uses them for the reasons given by
Jones and Murray: they are too slow. Srinivasan used Dewar flasks, but
he broke the seal, making an air gap instead a vacuum. Pons and
Fleischmann, as noted, used a modified Dewar with a window on the
bottom. This radiates much more heat and it eliminates 98% of the
effects of changes in the water level. The performance is radically
different from that of an ordinary Dewar.

- Jed

Any glass or plastic cell is an insulated cell-- not only Dewars.

Shelton's critique has raised some fundamental issues about reliable
calorimetry, and his suggestion about using precise exothermic chemical
reactions to calibrate is certainly a fresh idea.  He describes getting
up to 40% erroneous apparent excess heat in an actual cell, at a level
of several watts of power.  This ought to set off alarm bells in the
minds of all in the field.  For instance, this is more than the 20-25%
excess power generated by Arata & Zhang for years, or Bush earlier this
year with his Ni cell.

As Carrell explains, the data so far presented by Arata & Zhang,
although incomplete [We have no details about the timing and frequency
of calibrations over a period of years, we have no details about flow
rate and actual temperatures in a cell of 120 W power input, or even the
size, shape, and mass of the cathode and the cell in general.], there is
nothing that compels us to reject their claims outright.  Only skilled,
patient attempts by independent groups can confirm or deny their
claims.  
I have a pragmatic negative prejudice: claims of excess power indicate
that there must be errors in the calorimetry or unknown, but nonnuclear
artifacts.  For instance, CETI for three years has claimed and still
claims excess heats in their simple light water and Ni plated bead cells
in the range ten-fold and higher-- but without publication of adaquate
reports in the recognized scientific literature, or replication by
independent groups.  Recently, Scott Little, who has been testing CETI's
RIFEX kit for a year, posted:

Subject: Miley's calorimetry
 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:59:11 -0700
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:58:46 -0500 (CDT)
       From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To: vortex-l eskimo.com

Rich Murray asks a lot of good questions about Miley's calorimetry.
Unfortunately Miley does not provide a detailed description of his
calorimetry methods in either of his papers on transmutation in
CETI-style beads.

I can only shed an oblique light on this issue.  We have worked with an
official CETI Rifex kit here at EarthTech.  Although the kit was not
promoted as an excess heat experiment, it nonetheless was provided with
inlet and outlet temperature measuring stations and there was a section
in the protocol book which discussed how to make electrolyte-flow
calorimetric measurements of the heat generated in the cell.  In our
Rifex work, therefore, we monitored the inlet and outlet temperature
sensors as suggested hoping to see some signs of excess heat.

What we observed instead was a more-or-less meaningless meandering
around of the delta-T signal in response to ambient temperature changes
in our lab. The Rifex kit included an insulated chamber for the cell to
operate in but there was no provision for temperature regulation of this
chamber.  Compared to the performance of the various calorimeter systems
we have developed at EarthTech, the Rifex kit was hopelessly inadequate.

Pure Speculation:  If Miley had taken all the trouble we have taken to
obtain respectable calorimetric measurement accuracies, I doubt he would
have neglected to include a detailed description of those efforts in his
papers.  If he didn't take all that trouble, I doubt if his calorimetric
results are reliable.

What about the nuclear transmutations?  At we speak, samples of our
reacted Rifex beads, electrolyte, and electrodes are being analyzed by
Miley's group for comparison to our own analyses.  Hopefully we can
integrate and resolve all this analytical data into a presentable report
in a couple of more weeks.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

Experimenters who claim excess power have to provide extremely detailed
information about their calorimetry and calibrations, along with
attempts to drive their systems into generating erroneous excess heats. 
Shelton achieved false excess heats merely by moving his temperature
sensor a few centimeters, and reducing the speed of his stirrer from
1000 to 200 rmp. He could have generated this meaningless data for
years, accumulating a vast amount of imaginary excess energy, far beyond
the obstensible error of measurement. I hope Mallove and his team, whose
calorimetry has been good enough to demonstrate zero excess power this
year with repeated testing of the Ragland cell, [reported two years ago
to generate up to 500% excess power in runs lasting for months] will
continue to test the various cells available, such as Dash's Ti cell,
and Bush's Ni cell, and continuing to provide immediate and detailed
public disclosure of results.

It's time to move from sterile sectarian disputation to cooperative
scientific testing.

As one,   Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 8750
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

--------------79A1F2D1E53
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (root mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48])
	by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21811;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:42:56 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29736;
	Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:17:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:17:00 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Dewar flasks used by Arata & Zhang and Cravens
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:15:43 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971208232103181.AAA256 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"DF88I1.0.NG7.f_7Zq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13554
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com

Once again Rich Murray is demonstrating his lack of understanding of the
A&Z experiment. He  invoked the Jones paper with the admonition: 

>To those of you who need to hear this, I command thee, by the authority
>of the one, to listen intently and deeply, not only to these words and
>the following excellent critical offering, but to the quieter
>comprehension within.

I hold a mirror up to him, that he should invoke the same standard to
himself. 

I have dealt at length with the A&Z paper, and will not repeat all of what
has been posted. I have also posted scans of Fig. 5 of the A&Z paper, which
Rich continues to misinterpret. I will quote his latest quotation from an
earlier post of his, with comment.
 
> Dear all,     Arata & Zhang's long paper has a diagram, clearly showing
> a vacuum flask. 

Indeed they do. 

> I quote from my summary of Shelton's report on calorimeter errors in
> cold fusion research:
> 
> E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
> calorimetry:
> 
> The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment
> must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same
> during experiment as during calibration.

Fig. 5 of A&Z shows a Dewar flask, closed by a cap, with a body of
recombination catalyst. The electrolyte fills about half the flask. Cooling
water circulates through tubing in a helical coil about half the internal
diameter of the flask, with five of seven turns submerged in the
electrolyte. Cooling fluid enters and leaves through tight-fitting holes in
the cap. Measurement of the temperature of the cooling water is measured by
thermocouples immersed in the water at the intake and exit points. The top
of the cathode capsule is even with the bottom of the cooling water helix.
The cathode capsule diameter is one-quarter that of the cooling coil. 

The Pt anode is a cylinder the same height as the cathode capsule and the
same diameter as the cooling coil helix. 

The configuration is the same for calibration and test runs. The only
difference is that a Pt cathode of the same surface area as the Pd cathode
is used for calibration. 

> The measured delta T must be the actual value.

The thermocouples signals are subtracted and to get a delta T, which
directly measures the heat produced, since the whole cell is inside a dewar
flask and the only other thermal paths out are through leads to the anode,
cathode, and three other thermocouples whose readings are not used as part
of the heat measurement. 

> The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small.

There is convection circulation within the cell, and a large area between
the surface of the circulating water helix and the electrolyte. On the time
scale of the A&Z experiment (hundreds of hours), the thermal time constant
is negligible. 

> The delta T should not change very quickly.

This is in relation to the time constant of the experiment. The data graphs
show essentially vertical lines in places, on a scale of 400 hours/inch in
one case and 2300 hours/inch in another. It is impossible to say exactly
how fast the process heat changed in relation to the thermal time constant
of the calorimeter, but the data indicate that the process heat is being
tracked. 
 
> The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  

This, from Jones, is a strawman generality. An honest review would cite
specific experiments which violate the asserted principles and what manner.


>The cell is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
> constant to be large. 

This is an incorrect assertion in the A&Z case, for example, because the
process is cooled by circulating water inside the helix inside the dewar
flask. 

>This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
> interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results. [my language] 

Rich is still trying to invalidate the A&Z calorimetry. I have shown that
the calibration procedure shows that the noise contributed by the
calorimetry is much less than the variations in heat generated by the CF
reactions. He grasps at straws, including Jones' strawman. There is nothing
in the calorimetry setup which "guarantees jumpy, erratic...inaccurate,
poorly understood results". The one correct adjective is that the data
variations are interesting. There are two aspects to "poorly understood
results". The first is Rich's evident inability to understand and apply
physical principles to the configuration of Fig 5 with respect to
calorimetry considerations. The second aspect is the detailed nature of the
physical processes producing the heat within the cathode capsule. That is a
fit subject for further research, but has no bearing on the validity of the
results presented; 1) generation of substantial excess energy, and 2)
direct association of this energy production with the appearance of nuclear
ash, namely 3He and 4He.

> Shelton calculates in detail that Dewar flasks can have as much heat
> loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
> which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.  There is usually
> much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads
> and tubes.

That's all very well, but such effects are included in the calibration. And
in the case of A&Z, the heat path out through the cooling water helix is
much, much, the more substantial than the ones calculated by Shelton, or
through the leads mentioned above. This is another bit of misdirection.
Rich should know as much.

> "...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures
> measured at single points in each. Any thermal gradients present in the
> solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results.  

Irrelevant for A&Z. The single points are thermocouples immersed in a
flowing cooling water circulating through a seven-turn helix immersed in an
electrolyte mixed by convection and bubbling. 

> This systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat'
in
> flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...

Irrelevant for A&Z for reasons given.

Jones moves the goalposts by introducing a new requirement, calibration by
some well-characterized chemical reaction in addition to normal
calibrations by a Joule heater. Such chemical calibrations introduce new
variables to be discussed. I do not know that such are demanded in any
other calorimetric procedure. In any case this new requirement is met in
the A&Z case, for the calibration is by electrolysis in the same cell, only
using a Pt cathode instead of a Pd cathode. The Pt electrolysis is indeed
an equivalent and similar and well characterized electrochemical reaction. 

The deeper truth for Rich to contemplate is that each experiment is a
separate question asked of Nature, who always answers truthfully. Men
generalize from experimental instances at their peril. Inferences drawn
from Jones' calorimetry experiment do not necessarily apply to other
experiments. Only specifics lead to scientific truth. 

Rich, the A&Z calorimetry satisfies the criteria laid down by Calvet. Are
you no ready to accept the measurements as being valid? 

Mike Carrell




--------------79A1F2D1E53--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 09:45:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA31800;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:40:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:40:50 -0800
Message-ID: <348DAD79.D98 bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 12:43:37 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [off topic, sorta] Transpacitor
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"WkQ2m.0.im7.XAOZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13584
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts, Vorts,

This press release by the American Computer company puts me in the mind
of the Fogel Transistor that Tom Bearden has been working on.  See:

http://www.american-computer.com/Transcap.htm

(case sensitive)

Terry

	##########################

AMERICAN COMPUTER COMPANY unearths previously unknown electronic device
it claims it obtained by analyzing notes about Alien Artifact examined
by Bell Labs 50 years ago, notes that were sold ACC by an unnamed
source...

New York, NY December 7, 1997 - For Immediate Release

In an earthshaking Press Release, the American Computer Company,
Cranford, NJ (http://american-computer.com) announced:

a) In July of 1947, the Department of the Army Air Force, secured debris
from one crashed Aircraft and a complete Aircraft which was landed by
occupants trying to determine the status of their comrades from the
first crash site.  The Aircraft captured by the Air Force, it is said,
are allegedly of ExtraTerrestrial Manufacture, bearing engineering
wonders previously unseen by humans.

b) As a result of an indepth study by ACC of notes and things it
purchased from an unnamed source who had worked on the project involving
IBM and AT&T during 1947, who were hired to analyze the wreck and the
intact craft by the Air Force in August of 1947, -- ACC has elected to
announce that it has discovered  a previously undetected electronic
component, one that it feels the Air Force, IBM and Bell Labs
overlooked.

At least one past analysis of the debris allegedly led to AT&T Bell Labs
announcement of the Transistor in September of 1947, and yet, ACC has
indicated that Bell Labs, the Army and Air Force Research Labs, and IBM
Research "completely missed one of the key components in the debris they
were given to analyze".

c) The component American Computer Company discovered, has been dubbed
the "Transfer Capacitor".  ACC has decided to refer to it as the
Transcap or Transcapacitor, and as the "T-CAP" for short.  ACC has
noticed that it is reserving these names, along with the Transpacitor,
as ACC Trademarks and Usage Marks.  It has several advanced features
heretofor unidentified in the electronics industry, and it is UNRELATED
to the Transistor in composition:

ACC claimed that the "T-CAP" can store energy in "levels" using a single
microelectronic component device that could be manufactured as small as
physics permits, having only four fundamental elements (the Transistor
has only three), to whit, as small as a small part of a Micron, at the
molecular level, smaller even than a single Transistor as are used in
today's microchips.

ACC said that the energy levels the T-CAP can store can represent
mathematical values up to 10 to the 23rd power, and can be recalled, all
using only a single Transcap device and a simple circuit design. The
Transcap could revolutionize memory devices, as it replaces as many as
50 to 1000 Transistors used in common Memory Chips.  A version of the
Transcap can be used as a comparator to enable "analog boolean
mathematics" as are commonly used in Computers today. As a result, it
could revolutionize the size of computers, reducing them to 1/50th to
1/1000th of their size, or increasing memory capacity by 50 to 1000
times in the same space as today's common memory systems.

ACC said that the energy levels the Transcap can store, could also be
"modulated", and could be configured to represent a "fragment" of
information, not just the bits and bytes stored in today's computers. To
that extent, it would operate much like a very short piece of "recording
tape".  ACC's engineers, excited by their find, described the circuit as
being "similar in function to the synapses of the brain or the neuro
ganglial pill, yet much smaller, more precise and much, much faster."

ACC's staff indicated that the Transcap has very little heat transfer in
its operation, hence it runs with less than 1000th of the heat
dissipation of conventional memory circuits, yet its read cycle
(requiring a rewrite for refresh after read) operates in the
sub-nanosecond speed range.  Power from the Transcap is recycled from
read to write cycles, hence it is "highly power efficient", said the
Disclosure, with little or no heat emmission, as there is no power loss
in the Transcap, unlike the Transistor.

In addition, ACC's staff said that the Transcap can also be used as a
replacement for "electron valves" (also known as "vacuum tubes") even
though an unconventional application, and would be ideal for such
applications where Transistors have been unsuccessful.

According to ACC, in addition to obvious application in Computers, the
Transcap can also be used as a high voltage, unifrequency Oscillator,
with applications in Laser, Radio, Microwave, Data Communications, and
UltraFrequency devices, possessing features which the Transistor does
not: it can store the oscillatory energy and discharge it in sub
nanosecond pulses, at voltages upto 80 Megavolt, and Frequencies up to
near light wave ranges.

The Transcap Patents being prepared by lawyers for ACC's Shadowlake R&D
facility, will be filed in weeks to months, and include manufacturing
techniques, commercialization and other utility patents that ACC has
decided to apply for. ACC has claimed full rights to the device,
indicating that "The Air Force, AT&T and Bell Labs had 50 years to
discover THIS device in the wreckage, now we have found it, and on the
very same basis as with other finds from the wreckage the Air Force
proliferated to commercial interests, we are staking a claim in the
Transcapacitor!"

It was not stated when ACC felt it would be able to bring the Transcap
to market, but the company indicated "This time, its going to be mass
produced cheaply and made available to the public at minimum cost.  It
could revolutionize computing, telephony, radio, TV and other electronic
components, and we are going to see that it does so to the benefit of
Humanity.  Our studies have indicated that the Transcap could change the
way we transmit signals along wires: by using its energy-modulation
signature approach, we might even be able to cram megabits of
information per second along ordinary circuits used for dial up
telephone lines today at only thousands of bits per second. Who knows,
perhaps we'll all save a lot of money, at the very least we are going to
open up the Information Superhighway to some Autobahn Speed Traffic and
Information flow, rather than the Turtle Race it is today..."

ACC indicated that one other use, as a component in small, flat picture
tubes, was being investigated at the time of this release. ACC indicated
it hoped that the component would become a boon to humanity, and not a
"hot potato controlled by a small group of labs licensing it out for the
sake of their own self-possessed greed for high fees to the highest
bidder...".

Initial information has indicated that at least one company, IBM
Corporation, may file a protest on the patent, claiming that it
"discovered the device first".  In response to the rumor, an ACC
Spokesperson said: "IBM always says things like that."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 10:52:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19254;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:47:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:47:50 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:47:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: For Peter Glueck, regarding the Cincy-Cell.
In-Reply-To: <348D52D0.35B7 earthlink.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209102313.24045C-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"rboLf1.0.mi4.L9PZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13585
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Dear Peter,
	   I've read with some interest your report as passed on by Bob Bass
and Rich Murray. I'm very pleased that your lab has made nuclear
measurements with NaI crystals. Your count rates are in the range I would
expect for a 0.1 gram initial Thorium sample. One potential problem with the
Cincy cell measurements that I've considered is that the Thorium may be
preferentially "plated out" inside the cell itself. However, one can use the
same nuclear measurements to deterimine if this is true.

I've had a lot of experience with the detection of gamma rays with NaI
crystals so I'm very interested in the details of your measurements.

Another major potential problem is that the decay sequence of Th goes
through the noble gas, radon. This could quite likely be  driven from
solution by the vigourous AC power applied. However, since it's half life is
of the order of days, if the radioactivity measurements are made immediately
after running the AC power, it's absence should not affect the total
activity too much.

 Could you arrange to run the following protocol?

1. Place the Thorium mixture inside the Cincy-Cell.

2. Measure the Thorium activity inside the Cincy-Cell with the NaI detector
before running the AC power.

3. Run the AC power as described by the potocol.

4. Measure the Thorium activity inside the Cincy-Cell after running the AC
power, with NaI in the same place as the initial measurement.

Repeat these measurements for a variety of geometrical arrangements of the
NaI detector around the cell.

Also I would greatly appreciate it if you could make the energy spectrum of
detected gamma rays detected by the NaI available. Specifically I'm
interested in all three phases of the measurement.

1. Spectrum before running AC power.
2. Spectrum after running AC power.
3. Spectrum of the background.

Thank you

Martin Sevior
Senior Lecturer
School of Physics
University of Melbourne
Australia


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 10:53:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19831;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:49:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:49:26 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: No Mass, Really?
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:50:07 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd04c2$81ae6b20$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Blb9W1.0.Hr4.kAPZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13586
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Since force, F = ma and a = v^2/r, mass = F*r/v^2.

Then "spin", mvr = F*v*r^2/v^2 = F*r^2/v = n*h/2(pi)

so, F = n*h*v/2(pi)r^2  =  dW/dl = .5V^2*dC/dl

And since C = eo*l, what the l's going on?   :-)

Horace, help?

Regards,       Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:06:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05491;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:57:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:57:42 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:56:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Safety in R&D
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971209092737.006ebeb8 mail.eden.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209105327.24045E-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"4duye3.0.aL1.XIPZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13587
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Scott Little wrote:

>
> I've always wondered if he went out and bought plastic spoons that evening!
>

There's all sorts of nasty Hydrocarbons in those plastic spoons. What's more
they're flamable. If he left it on the burner of stove it would not only be
a fire hazard but it would also emit toxic fumes. He'd have to eat with his
fingers to be safe :-)

Cheers

Martin Sevior



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:19:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07338;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209130829.00b20a24 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:08:29 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: For Peter Glueck, regarding the Cincy-Cell.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209102313.24045C-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
References: <348D52D0.35B7 earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"epOn1.0.Wo1.7TPZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13588
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:47 12/9/97 -0800, Martin Sevior wrote:

> Could you arrange to run the following protocol?
>1. Place the Thorium mixture inside the Cincy-Cell.
>2. Measure the Thorium activity inside the Cincy-Cell with the NaI detector
>before running the AC power.
>3. Run the AC power as described by the potocol.
>4. Measure the Thorium activity inside the Cincy-Cell after running the AC
>power, with NaI in the same place as the initial measurement.

Excellent suggestion, Martin.  Peter, I second Martin's suggestion that the
gamma counting be performed on the assembled cell before and after the AC
power treatment.  This will ensure that nothing is missed due to plating
out of the metals, leaving only the geometric effects of redistribution of
the Th to worry about.  

Martin suggests performing several "before" measurements and several "after
measurements with the detector placed at different locations around the
cell.  That sounds pretty good to me.  Total Th activity should be related
to the average of those measurements.

Martin is also correct in requesting actual spectra for the before and
after measurements and the background.  We need to see which gammas are
doing the changing.  If you are using a PC-base multichannel analyzer, the
spectra should be savable as relatively compact files that could be xmitted
as email attachements or placed on a web site for downloading.

Good luck, Peter. I hope you can make these important measurements soon.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:28:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA32113;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:21:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:21:30 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: re: Show a little backbone
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:19:57 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971209192537957.AAA160 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"X-Cw63.0.fr7.uePZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13589
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott says:
----------
> From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Show a little backbone
> Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 10:48 AM
> 
> There have been some caustic remarks about Rich Murray's postings
recently.
>  I agree with much of the content of these remarks (e.g. the usual use of
> Dewars in CF experimentation) but find the tone unproductive at best.
> 
> We're here on Vortex to DISCUSS experimental results...not bicker over
> them.  I believe that Rich Murray shares the exact same dream that
> possesses the rest of us.  He WANTS to identify a genuine excess energy
> experiment and help develop it into a usable energy source.  Consistent
> with this desire, he does not want to waste time pursuing a reported
effect
> for which there is no credible evidence.
> 
> I think Rich is providing a valuable service by digging through these
> reports and commenting on them.  If you think he's interpreting something
> wrong, don't hesitate to correct him but don't castigate him for his
> misunderstanding.  I am sure that everyone here on Vortex could benefit
> from some thoughtful dissertation on the issues that he and others are
> raising. 
> 
> Scott

I have been responsible for detailed critiques of Rich's critiques and have
been generally restrained in my tone, but have of late grown a bit
impatient. I have stated that Rich's detailed perusal of various reports in
itself is commendable were he seeking to understand the data before him. I
castigate where he fails, or refuses, to understand what is put before him.
If he seeks to understand I and others will be endlessly patient. I am not
patient when he issues pejoratively worded conclusions based on incorrect
application of the data present. He does not say "could this?" but "is so";
not "I don't understand", but "The author is wrong" or "X says dewars are
bad" or "Y says recombination explains all". This is not a scientific
discussion. 

We have been discussing experimental results, in detail. I have
specifically put the A&Z paper before him. He has issued pejorative
conclusions concerning it to his private mailing list of 50 parties. This
is not discussion. Dieter Britz found no contradictions in the paper in
question on his own review, but assumed that there must be such, because
Rich said so. Rich's pejorative conclusions were based on incorrect reading
of the charts in the paper. He has not changed his mind even after I have
pointed out his errors in detail. 

Rich then cited the Jones paper containing Calvet's description of correct
calorimetry, with the assertion that deviations from this showed why the
A&Z data are "jumpy". I have shown that Jones comments about Dewar flasks
invalidating CF experiments do not apply to the A&Z experiment, but Rich
has not reasoned this through. 

Rich says he WANTS to find a good paper and be reassured that CF is real. I
place a good paper before him and he misreads it. 

Scott, you have devoted great efforts to achieving good calorimetry.
Perhaps you would take pains to STUDY Rich's posts about the A&Z
experiment, and my critiques of his posts, AND please print out the scanned
illustrations I posted from the A&Z paper. Then tell us whether Rich has
served the community well by the pejorative tone of his summaries of the
A&Z work. 

I don't think Rich has served his stated objective well by disseminating
the erroneous conclusions he drew about Miley's work, his hasty conclusions
about the CG cell, or his hasty conclusions about the A&Z work. 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:42:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11381;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:34:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:34:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209132805.00b1e15c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:28:05 -0600
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Dewar flasks, etc.
In-Reply-To: <348B84BB.E10 earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"WYCOq1.0.ln2.rqPZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13590
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 23:25 12/7/97 -0600, Rich Murray wrote:

>E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good
>calorimetry:
>
1.>The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment
>must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same
>during experiment as during calibration.
>
2. >The measured delta T must be the actual value.

These first two are pretty obvious.  No argument.

3. >The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small.

I don't see why is this important to calorimetric accuracy.  Any insights?

4. >The delta T should not change very quickly.

This requirement seems contradictory to number 3, doesn't it?

>The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
>is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
>constant to be large.  This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
>interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results.

Isn't it exactly the opposite?  A large time constant ensures smooth and
stable results.  The only problem I can see with long time constants arises
when you are trying to measure a transient phenomenon.

>Shelton calculates in detail that Dewer flasks can have as much heat
>loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation,
>which are two quite differently behaved heat paths.

They may be differently behaved but, in my experience, their behavior is
stable and reproducible, which makes a Dewar suitable for calorimetric
measurements.

In fact, I have decided to construct a super-sensitive isoperibolic
calorimeter using a Dewar to isolate the cell with the goal of obtaining
+/- 1 mW sensitivity/accuracy as did Miles with his well-insulated cell.  I
will report on the performance of this calorimeter here on Vortex (don't
hold your breath, though...it'll take a month or so).



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:58:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06692;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:49:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:49:37 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209134956.00b249d4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 13:49:56 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: re: Show a little backbone
In-Reply-To: <19971209192537957.AAA160 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"PrEyI1.0.Oe1.F3QZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13592
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 15:19 12/9/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

<snip most of a patient and thoughtful response>

>Rich says he WANTS to find a good paper and be reassured that CF is real. I
>place a good paper before him and he misreads it. 

What about this, Rich?  Mike has pointed out a number of apparent
misinterpretations on your part.  Have you accepted his explanations?  If
so, you do need to respond to that effect.

I now have the A&Z paper and will endeavor to study it soon.  It is not a
trivial task.

Thanks, Mike.





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 11:59:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06557;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:49:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:49:07 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712091948.NAA09559 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Dewar flasks, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971209132805.00b1e15c mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Dec 9, 97 01:28:05 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:48:56 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"DdYCH2.0.Kc1.o2QZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13591
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
> >The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
> >is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
> >constant to be large.  This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
> >interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results.
> 
> Isn't it exactly the opposite?  A large time constant ensures smooth and
> stable results.  The only problem I can see with long time constants arises
> when you are trying to measure a transient phenomenon.

Yeah Scott.  I think this is one of the benefits of doing little 
"basement" experiments.  You build an intuitive understanding of
the way things really work.  Otherwise if the analysis is all
theoretical, you run the risk of making mistakes of inexperience.

I can asure anyone based upon my own "basement" experiments of a
few years ago that long thermal time constants smooth out the
results.  This is just like the way long RC time constants smooth
out (filter out high frequency) electrical impulses.

Of course, as you say, you pick the time constant to have some
relationship to the lifetime of the phenomena you are studying.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 12:01:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08325;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:57:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:57:33 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Safety in R&D
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:54:46 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd04dc$4d39ed00$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"kTPfe1.0.m12.eAQZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13593
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: Safety in R&D

Scott wrote:
>
>Yeah, like when I worked for a pretty large company and the safety director
>informed me that stainless steel bar stock was on the hazardous material
>list because of the Cr content!  When I pointed out that he sucked on a
>piece of nicely shaped stainless steel every morning to eat his Wheaties
>and suggested that he should remove stainless bar stock from his list...he
>said, "No can do"!
>
>I've always wondered if he went out and bought plastic spoons that evening!

Welcome to the "club".  :-)

While working with high purity potassium metal
I used water-soaked rags to wipe up spills. I was informed by the SNLA
safety experts to use anhydrous ethanol.

When I had a few drops spilled in an electron beam welder I called them to
do the cleanup.
Naturally thier ethanol soaked cleanup rags caught fire and it was a sight
to see them jumping on them to put out the fires.

After they got the fires out I soaked a couple of rags in water and finished
the job ignoring
the potassium-water reaction that tried to set the rags on fire due to the
spontaneous potassium-water-hydrogen-oxygen reactions.

The chemists at Oak Ridge said they got rid of
old potassium by putting it in a sealed glass jar and tossing it out on a
lake then shooting at it from a safe distance with a high-powered rifle.
:-)

I found that putting the potassium metal and
ss or nickel coated with with potassium in a steel barrel mixed in with, and
covered with
dry foundry sand, then having the fire department add water from a fire hose
(from a safe distance)worked very nicely.

Regards,   Frederick
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 12:07:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09294;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:58:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:58:46 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971209145428.006b022c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:54:28 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Dewar flasks, etc.
In-Reply-To: <199712091948.NAA09559 mirage.skypoint.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971209132805.00b1e15c mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"dGCWQ2.0.gG2.qBQZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13594
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


At 01:48 PM 12/9/97 -0600, John Logajan wrote:

>Scott Little wrote:
>> >The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles:  The cell
>> >is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time
>> >constant to be large.  This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively,
>> >interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results.
>> 
>> Isn't it exactly the opposite?  A large time constant ensures smooth and
>> stable results.  The only problem I can see with long time constants arises
>> when you are trying to measure a transient phenomenon.
>

>Yeah Scott.  I think this is one of the benefits of doing little 
>"basement" experiments.  You build an intuitive understanding of
>the way things really work.  Otherwise if the analysis is all
>theoretical, you run the risk of making mistakes of inexperience.
>

  It is nice to see a focus of agreement again.   ;-)X

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 12:56:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24331;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:51:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:51:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007800b0b334b27a22 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971208214934.27360A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
References: <v03007811b0b24518064f [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:50:22 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"SCGRc3.0.5y5.5zQZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13595
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jim Ostrowski and I have dialoged on his recently posted faster-than-light
signalling experiment. BTW, I commend Jim for posting so much information,
which greatly facilitates discussion.

I think I understand Jim's experiment more now than I did when I posted
yesterday. My comments follow:

1. While that 75 m single loop of coax is indeed an antenna, it is not an
efficient one at the frequencies in use, and antenna behavior turns out mot
to be a major effect here, contrary to what I posted yesterday.  (BTW, Jim,
where do you do this experiment? That's a big loop to support away from
ground.) Instead, it is mainly acting as a distributed 1:1 transformer. A
24 m loop has about 100 uH of self inductance, for an inductive reactance
of about 400 ohm at 0.67 MHz. This is several times greater than the 60 ohm
capacitive reactance of C1 at the same frequency. The mutual inductance
between the inner conductor and outer jacket is almost the same (within
bettter than 1%). Therefore, the common loop inductive reactance is indeed
large enough that, to first order, the loop acts as a transformer, not as a
capacitor. However, this is a somewhat unusual transformer, because the
primary (outer jacket) and secondary (inner conductor) are each open to DC
at one end. However, there is enough C (or line length) between the two to
let substantial circuit current flow. This allows the 75 m coax to
trnsformer couple the two sides together so as to make their voltages
approximately equal at _all_ frequencies for which the line serves as a
reasonably good transformer. This provides at least a first order
explanation of why the two voltages measured by the oscilloscopes are
almost identical for all frequency components of the experiment (.667,
1.333, 2.000 MHz). A first order equivalent circuit is:



                     M = 100 uH
                        1:1            L1 = 6 uH
      o-------o-------        -----------())))--------o
              \       )      (                        |
              /       )  ||  (                       (~)
          R1  \       ) -||- (  C1 = 4 nF             |
              /       )  ||  (  (distributed)        gnd
              \       )      (
              |
              |       open ends
             gnd

  Note: In reality there is also some distributed capacitance
        from outer conductor to ground.



2. I maintain that you cannot measure group velocity in a resonant circuit
with a periodic signal.  First, as Jim showed with his math, the phase
shift of an ideal circuit resonator (and this generalizes to resonant
transmission lines and cavities, too) is zero. In other words, the phase
velocity in a resonator is infinity. The physical reason for this is that
the resonator stores capacitive and inductive energy from one quarter cycle
to the next, so one cannot know how long it has taken the energy to arrive.
The energy has _already_ been in the system ever since steady state was
established, millions of cycles ago. This is why I say that one must use an
isolated pulse to measure signal propagation.

3. The dispersion argument might be a good one, and yesterday I did not
have a good explanation for it. However, I now claim (point 1 above) that
the nearly frequency-independent response apparent in the oscillograms
comes from the 1:1 wideband transformer that is the coax line.



>    May  I ask what you do over there at General Atomics? This is a sincere
>    inquiry . Would you like a copy of my resume' ?

I am a plasma physicist. I do research on 'hot' fusion, mostly in a tokamak
these days. My present work concentrates on the edge of the plasma,
particularly the electric current therein. I am trying to understand how
that current relates to the plasma and how we might manipulate the plasma
by changing the current in its edge. But my interests in fusion and in
energy research are broad. In earlier times (25 yr ago) I taught
electromagnetism and antennas to electrical engineering students. I majored
in electrical engineering and science in university.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 13:09:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22964;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:03:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:03:23 -0800
Message-ID: <348DCE53.76E2 keelynet.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:03:47 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [off topic, sorta] Transpacitor
References: <348DAD79.D98 bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OsAbb3.0.kc5.Q8RZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13596
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts & Snorts!

Dennis Lee & Stan Meyer, watch out, you have competition;

American Computer Corporation.....sells computers.....with their vast 
R&D facilities, they have managed to decode alien technology 'missed' by 
AT&T and IBM from documents 'and things' obtained from 'an unnamed 
source' that were retrieved from the Roswell crash site....gotta love it, 
and you guys thought I put out weird stuff....

"it can store the oscillatory energy and discharge it in sub nanosecond 
pulses, at voltages up to 80 Megavolt, and Frequencies up to near light 
wave ranges. "

80,000,000 volts? for starters....wow, I wanna buy stock!!!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 13:55:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01616;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:47:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:47:10 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:17:31 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Dewar flasks, etc.
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712091621_MC2-2B5A-CCDB compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fb0VC.0.7P.TnRZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13597
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little and John Logajan write:

     SL: Isn't it exactly the opposite?  A large time constant ensures smooth
     and stable results.  The only problem I can see with long time constants
     arises when you are trying to measure a transient phenomenon.

     JL: Yeah Scott.  I think this is one of the benefits of doing little
     "basement" experiments. You build an intuitive understanding of the way
     things really work. . . .

     I can assure anyone based upon my own "basement" experiments of a few
     years ago that long thermal time constants smooth out the results. . . .

     Of course, as you say, you pick the time constant to have some
     relationship to the lifetime of the phenomena you are studying.

Yes, But!!! There are four serious problems with a Dewar or other slow, long
time constant cells.

1. What John said: the time constant cannot be longer than heat burst you
intend to study, or you blur it out. There is some evidence that CF is made up
of many short macroscopic bursts. You'd never see that with a slow response
calorimeter.

2. What Fleischmann and McKubre said about McKubre's calorimeter: it is a slow
beast that inhibits change. We want a dynamic environment. A Dewar with a lot
of water (say 500 ml)  would keep the cathode from self heating. A Dewar with
a small amount of water (say, 50 ml) might heat up so much it boils or
explodes. A cell that with a moderate amount of water that sheds heat more
quickly will allow more dynamic change, I think.

3. They are annoying to work with. They can be impractical, says Srinivasan.
They take weeks to calibrate. You may have to wait a whole day for each
calibration step, whereas a conventional calorimeter will settle after an
hour.

4. Heat loss from the top, bottom, electrode leads, and other stray sources
becomes significant. Heat is like electricity: it follows the path with the
least impedance. If you make cell walls with high impedance, then a large
fraction of the heat goes out via unpredictable, strangely shaped components
that do not calibrate in a linear fashion. The top of the cell and the
electrode leads will not be in the bath. They will be subjected to changes in
ambient air temperature, breezes, and other sources of noise. You want to
encourage as much heat as possible to go out via one well defined path coupled
to a quiet, uniform, controlled environment (like the cell wall facing the
bath). That's what Calvet was talking about. You must compromise by making
this one path fairly wide, as it were, so the heat leaves quickly.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 14:05:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06265;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:57:53 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:57:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348DDAEA.2CED keelynet.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:57:30 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Update on Sonic Waste Processing
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mKjzx2.0.mX1.VxRZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13598
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

Received an email from Ian Nagy <sfcn bc-alter.net> about when their 
patent number would be released.

Mr. Decker;

Thank you for your inquiry regarding our patent number.  I talked to our
C.F.O. and he informed me that they have been advised by our lawyers
that the patent has been granted. 

..(snip).... the notification of the number could take up to six months 
from the granting of the patent. This would arrive then, within three 
months or so.
-------------
If you are interested, updated information relating to this technology is 
being indexed and archived at;

           http://www.keelynet.com/ecology/shatter.htm
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 14:42:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12697;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:36:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:36:20 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:04:54 +0930
From: Greg Watspn <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
CC: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Update
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wMtds.0.A63.XVSZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13599
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Hi All,

For the last 8 weeks, I have been holding discussions with a world wide
conservation organization.  A well known member of their group has
recently visited my "Lab".  They wish to fully fund further work to
develop a home based 10Kw RMOG unit.  A letter of intention has been
been signed and the legal eagles are hard at work on the contract.  A
jointly owned company, "DMEC Research P/L" will be formed.  At present
there will only be two shareholders.


Several points relative to you have been resolved during the
discussions.

1) DMEC Research will own ALL my work & ideas.

2) My web site will stay up.

3) Updates to my site will be by the approval of the board.

4) I will stay in the Freenrg & Vortex mail groups.

5) Postings must be copied to the board.

6) There will be a public demo of a self powered RMOG unit in the second
quarter of 1998.


One matter still has to be sorted out.

1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.

   A) Ship & accept NO new orders.

   B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.

They prefer B, I prefer A.


Will keep you advised.


Best Regards to ALL,
 Greg

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 14:51:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14836;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:46:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:46:43 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712092246.QAA13056 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au> from Greg Watspn at "Dec 10, 97 08:04:54 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:46:40 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"j136q2.0.jd3.IfSZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13600
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

You know who, said:
> 1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
>    A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
>    B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.
> They prefer B, I prefer A.

Let the backlash begin.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 14:57:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16571;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:54:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:54:21 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:54:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209144921.24045H-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"s2HiW.0.q24.RmSZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13601
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:

> One matter still has to be sorted out.
>
> 1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
>
>    A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
>
>    B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.
>
> They prefer B, I prefer A.
>
I was wondering how you would try to get out of the hole you've been digging
yourself.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:18:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18641;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:10:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:10:47 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:09:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Update - for Nick Palmer.
In-Reply-To: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209150842.24045I-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"gG8Ex2.0.2Z4.g_SZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13602
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> For the last 8 weeks, I have been holding discussions with a world wide
> conservation organization.  A well known member of their group has
> recently visited my "Lab".  They wish to fully fund further work to
> develop a home based 10Kw RMOG unit.  A letter of intention has been
> been signed and the legal eagles are hard at work on the contract.  A
> jointly owned company, "DMEC Research P/L" will be formed.  At present
> there will only be two shareholders.

Do you know anything about this Nick?

Martin Sevior

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:23:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24352;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:20:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:20:26 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:20:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: Greg Watson <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DB7DB.8C7F05FD verisoft.com.tr>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209151705.24045J-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Xrn3M2.0.Ay5.u8TZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13604
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> [snip]
>
> > 1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
> >
> >    A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
> >
> >    B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.
> >
> > They prefer B, I prefer A.
> >
>
>
> - Why you put yourself in a defendant position against them on *open* free
> energy research?

Even more to the point I do not believe that any contract you've signed can
make you break the law. If you do not ship the kits as you promised many,
many times, you will have committed some sort of fraud.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:28:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22887;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:15:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:15:50 -0800
Message-Id: <348DB7DB.8C7F05FD verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:27:55 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Subject: Re: Update
References: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"PpMY_3.0.Xb5.Y4TZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13603
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Greg,

[snip]

> 1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
> 
>    A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
> 
>    B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.
> 
> They prefer B, I prefer A.
> 

Problem is:

  - Why they prefer B? (Are they look to SMOT project simply as a business or a hobby project?)

  - How you could make an agreement with a mind radically different from you? (A versus B)

   - Why you put yourself in a defendant position against them on *open* free energy research?


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:38:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28059;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:32:54 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:33:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712092333.PAA19498 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"uZGzH.0.Ls6.bKTZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13606
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg Watson wrote:

>1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
>
>   A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
>
>   B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.
>
>They prefer B, I prefer A.

Parts of this do not compute. A worldwide conservation organization is
interested in your work, but it would like to keep the technology covered up?

This is a bit odd. Greg, you certainly must have the ability to make  your
stated preference a part of the bargain. After all, you hold the trump card
- the technology - right?

Aside from that consideration, you might mention to your new partners the
fact of your contractual obligation to the purchasers of the kits. To do
otherwise than to ship them would open up "DMEC Research" to lawsuits and
other unpleasantries; and the fact that orders were solicited and accepted
via United States mails may expose the company to Federal investigation and
prosecution [please don't take this as a threat from me, I'm just pointing
out some realities that may rear their ugly heads].

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:39:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27688;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:31:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:31:30 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712092331.RAA14054 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209151705.24045J-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca> from Martin Sevior at "Dec 9, 97 03:20:19 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:19 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MZ4P42.0.Ym6.GJTZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13605
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote:
> Even more to the point I do not believe that any contract you've signed can
> make you break the law. If you do not ship the kits as you promised many,
> many times, you will have committed some sort of fraud.

Clearly if he doesn't refund the money it is outright fraud.  But his
failure to ship (which is now a virtual certainty) does indicate
a violation of his word, as you say, repeated many many times with
utmost earnestness.  His word is no good.  With his word goes his
reputation. 

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 15:49:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25721;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <348DD808.56DD905 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:45:12 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Update
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209151705.24045J-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"oEMQT2.0.pH6.LVTZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13607
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote:
> 
I wrote:
> >
> > - Why you put yourself in a defendant position against them on *open* free
> > energy research?
> 
> Even more to the point I do not believe that any contract you've signed can
> make you break the law. If you do not ship the kits as you promised many,
> many times, you will have committed some sort of fraud.

Yes, this is fact. And the most disturbing point is the the "Conservation organization" ignore this fact. I am sure that they know what is SMOT, and its meaninig. There is no explaination rather than suppression. I beleive there is ready to ship SMOT kits
. They are real. But DNMEC is a still a project. If you could not put SMOT into life in this point, you could not put any free energy device into life ever.
 
Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:00:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27582;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:57:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:57:07 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:56:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DD808.56DD905 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209154509.24045K-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"HXVnk1.0.pk6.HhTZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13608
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> >
> > Even more to the point I do not believe that any contract you've signed can
> > make you break the law. If you do not ship the kits as you promised many,
> > many times, you will have committed some sort of fraud.
>
> Yes, this is fact. And the most disturbing point is the the "Conservation
> organization" ignore this fact.

My point is that the "Conservation Organization" CANNOT legally prevent Greg
from shipping the kits. They cannot use a document to make someone break the
law. Greg is legally obliged to ship the kits. By taking money he has
entered into a contract with his customers. A subsequent contract with
someone else cannot break an agreement he has already undertaken.

Forget what the "Conservation Organization" tells you Greg. You must ship.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:30:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07808;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:22:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:22:10 -0800
Message-ID: <348DE085.C59A5F5 microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:51:25 +0930
From: Greg Watspn <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
CC: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Smot Kits
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k3Xpp1.0.iv1.m2UZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13609
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

HI All,

The question of shipping the Smot Kits relates to WHO they will ship
from.  DMEC Research or ME.  They will probably ship under the DMEC
Research banner, that's what I want, but is not entirely my call.  To
ship under DMEC Research involves many factors.


The options as I see them are as follows:

  1) Ship under DMEC Research Banner (85%)

  2) Ship under my name              (14%)

  3) Refund the funds                (01%)


Regards,
 Greg

PS, Don't jump too quick to conclusions.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:33:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10431;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:31:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:31:03 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:25:38 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: My two cents.... Schnurer ...Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DD808.56DD905 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971209192252.11199C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"-_M3z2.0.qY2.4BUZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13610
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,  ... and Hamdi,

	For waht it is worth:

	a] I am on Greg's corner no matter what, provided he can betrue 
to himself.
	b] We will all be seeing an interesting real world lesson in the 
history and ethics of science .... in the making.
	c] Do not be judgemental until all the facts are known, please.


	John
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> Martin Sevior wrote:
> > 
> I wrote:
> > >
> > > - Why you put yourself in a defendant position against them on *open* free
> > > energy research?
> > 
> > Even more to the point I do not believe that any contract you've signed can
> > make you break the law. If you do not ship the kits as you promised many,
> > many times, you will have committed some sort of fraud.
> 
> Yes, this is fact. And the most disturbing point is the the "Conservation organization" ignore this fact. I am sure that they know what is SMOT, and its meaninig. There is no explaination rather than suppression. I beleive there is ready to ship SMOT ki
ts. They are real. But DNMEC is a still a project. If you could not put SMOT into life in this point, you could not put any free energy device into life ever.
>  
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:36:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11441;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:34:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:34:19 -0800
Message-ID: <348E53C9.2C8C itl.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:33:13 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Update - for Nick Palmer.
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209150842.24045I-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"R1llu.0.Ko2.8EUZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13611
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> For the last 8 weeks, I have been holding discussions with a world wide
> conservation organization.  A well known member of their group has
> recently visited my "Lab".  They wish to fully fund further work to
> develop a home based 10Kw RMOG unit.  A letter of intention has been
> been signed and the legal eagles are hard at work on the contract.  A
> jointly owned company, "DMEC Research P/L" will be formed.  At present
> there will only be two shareholders.

>Do you know anything about this Nick?


No. Friends of the Earth is worldwide (in over 50 countries) but is 
unlikely to be doing this. Certainly FoE U.K. isn't, and FoE America is 
highly unlikely to be aware of this unless Greg has contacted them 
directly. Greg could have asked me for relevant email addresses for the 
director of FoE UK etc but didn't.
	If this is legit, then Greenpeace International are more likely 
to commit funds to develop technology - they paid for the development of 
the hydrocarbon working fluid fridge (no C.F.C.s). I will ask around nad 
see what I come up with, but if theya re then it is very likely that 
they will not admit it because some of Greenpeace's supporters would have 
a horror of such a source of energy.
	I didn't receive any of the messages from Greg that you quoted - 
I haven't seen any messages from him since 1st Dec 97. Could you please 
email me copies of what he said. As the purchaser of SMOT#8 I certainly 
haven't agreed to, or even been asked, whether I want my money back or to 
have the SMOT shipped regardless.

Nick Palmer
Jersey FoE

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:37:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11803;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:34:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:34:53 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:29:26 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Smot Kits
In-Reply-To: <348DE085.C59A5F5 microtronics.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971209192859.11199F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"65sgq1.0.9u2.hEUZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13612
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Greg,

	 I am on your side... and ordering up!


					John

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:

> HI All,
> 
> The question of shipping the Smot Kits relates to WHO they will ship
> from.  DMEC Research or ME.  They will probably ship under the DMEC
> Research banner, that's what I want, but is not entirely my call.  To
> ship under DMEC Research involves many factors.
> 
> 
> The options as I see them are as follows:
> 
>   1) Ship under DMEC Research Banner (85%)
> 
>   2) Ship under my name              (14%)
> 
>   3) Refund the funds                (01%)
> 
> 
> Regards,
>  Greg
> 
> PS, Don't jump too quick to conclusions.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:46:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03785;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:39:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:39:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <9a435eea.348de00f aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:19:25 EST
To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Update
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"VT70a.0.kw.dIUZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13613
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/10/97 12:10:00 AM, gwatson microtronics.com.au wrote:

<<1) The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.

   A) Ship & accept NO new orders.

   B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.

They prefer B, I prefer A.>>

Greg, this is the time to make your stand, while the honeymoon is still on.
If B wins over A, for the rest of your professional life you will have to
fight for your ideas on every issue, and that can make you sorry you ever made
a Faustian deal.  Good luck, your vortex buddies are rooting for you.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 16:54:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05506;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:50:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:50:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348E575D.2E6F itl.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:29 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Update
References: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nRF682.0.rL1.3TUZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13614
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg Watson wrote:

<snip> vague stuff about a world wide conservation organisation

	It's not FoE Greg. Please identify which it is and the well known 
member thereof. If it's Greenpeace or the WWF or similar then please 
inform them that if they wish to keep their interest/investment secret 
they will fail because I will thwart them.  By the time you receive this 
I will have already emailed various contacts to appraise them of the 
situation. Please post my SMOT ASAP (if the MK4 setup works properly).

Best wishes to you

Nick Palmer
Jersey Friends of the Earth (part of FoE International in over 50 
countries worldwide)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:07:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19797;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:03:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:03:09 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:03:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712100103.RAA02436 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Smot Kits
Resent-Message-ID: <"ne_A93.0.Er4.BfUZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13615
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg Watspn wrote:  [hey Greg, did they make you change your name? ;-]

>The options as I see them are as follows:
>  1) Ship under DMEC Research Banner (85%)
>  2) Ship under my name              (14%)
>  3) Refund the funds                (01%)

Well, why dintja say so in the first place?

>Regards,
> Greg
>
>PS, Don't jump too quick to conclusions.

Well heck, Greg, in your original post you presented us with an A vs. B
situation, without stating probabilities. Coupled with what sounded like
you've given up a fair portion of control, that looked like there's a high
probability of the kits not shipping.  If that's not the case, great. But
please understand that you'd best be a bit careful about what you say,
you've got a pretty charged-up group of people here.

I'm wishing you success and hoping for a SMOT :-).

By the way, this is rather off-subject, but have you (or anyone) had any
contact with "Epitaxy" since he reported his successful rollaround? Several
people have asked about him but I have never seen a response.

Sincerely,

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:17:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09481;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:11:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:11:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348DDE69.5948 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 18:12:25 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu
Subject: Calorimetry: Rothwell to the aid of Murray!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"emIp33.0._J2.OnUZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13616
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 9, 1997

Dear all,  I am delighted to quote a very helpful paragraph by the
inestimable Jed Rothwell on the desirability of having a
heat-conducting, non-thermally-insulating cell wall, between the
electrolyte and the bath:

"Heat loss from the top, bottom, electrode leads, and other stray
sources becomes significant. Heat is like electricity: it follows the
path with the least impedance. If you make cell walls with high
impedance, then a large fraction of the heat goes out via unpredictable,
strangely shaped components that do not calibrate in a linear fashion.
The top of the cell and the electrode leads will not be in the bath.
They will be subjected to changes in ambient air temperature, breezes,
and other sources of noise. You want to encourage as much heat as
possible to go out via one well defined path coupled to a quiet,
uniform, controlled environment (like the cell wall facing the
bath). That's what Calvet was talking about. You must compromise by
making this one path fairly wide, as it were, so the heat leaves
quickly."

Shelton's cell used a pyrex test tube cell, inside a brass jacket, in
turn connected by 14 flexible tubes to a nearby very accurately
controlled bath, +- 2/1000 degree C.  The brass jacket contained 14
brass cooling tubes, passing 5,000 ml water per minute, to quickly
absorb watts of power.  Temperature sensors monitored with high accuracy
the delta-T from inside the well-stirred test tube to the bath and to an
external ice water sink.  Data was taken every 22 second-- that may
indicate the time sensitivity of the setup. So, it seems this cell would
measure fast heat bursts, if they were strong enough. 

As one, Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:22:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25273;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:19:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:19:38 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:19:25 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971209163634.5730C-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"O4sf01.0.pA6.euUZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13617
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:
> 
> 1) DMEC Research will own ALL my work & ideas.
>
> 2) My web site will stay up.
> 
> 3) Updates to my site will be by the approval of the board.
> 
> 4) I will stay in the Freenrg & Vortex mail groups.
> 
> 5) Postings must be copied to the board.
> 
> 6) There will be a public demo of a self powered RMOG unit in the second
> quarter of 1998.


Greg, I sure hope you know what you are doing.  This sounds to me like
Inventor's Disease, not on Greg's part, but on the part of his funding
source.  The above list reeks of distrust of the inventor.  If I was
approached by people with this type of obsession with control and secrecy,
I'd say "no thanks" and hold out for a much more enlightened group.  If
there's nothing to prevent the deal turning into another "Sweet VTA" or a
CETI, then that's probably the route things will take. 

But then I don't have lots of business experience, and this wresting away
of Greg's control of his works might be a common type of deal, rather
than being a way to rip off inventors.

Are there really no sources of financing which won't insist on taking
total control of one's discoveries?  Is there any way for an o/u inventor
to get funding without the business side becoming the Kiss of Death to the
project?  In know that in the Arts, some companies own everything their
employees produce, while other companies let the artists retain ownership.

Greg, if you're not totally comfortable with the deal, don't go through
with it.  It sounds like you're giving up too much.  You don't have to
take the first offer,you can afford to wait for one which is in line with
what YOU want. 


I can hardly wait to hear what Jed thinks of all this!

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:30:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11801;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:20:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Question, please to ...Update - for Nick Palmer.
In-Reply-To: <348E53C9.2C8C itl.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971209201824.15625F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"lfIqr3.0.Gu2.M_UZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13618
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Nick,


On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Nick Palmer wrote:

	cut a bunch of stuff ...
> 
> >Do you know anything about this Nick?


...> they will not admit it because some of Greenpeace's supporters would 
have > a horror of such a source of energy.
> 

	Q:  Why would some of the Greenpeace supporters have a horror of 
such an energy source?

			Thanks,

					John 



	I didn't receive any of the messages from Greg that you quoted - 
> I haven't seen any messages from him since 1st Dec 97. Could you please 
> email me copies of what he said. As the purchaser of SMOT#8 I certainly 
> haven't agreed to, or even been asked, whether I want my money back or to 
> have the SMOT shipped regardless.
> 
> Nick Palmer
> Jersey FoE
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:36:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12852;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:31:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311071bb0b39e3f82e7 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <348DCE53.76E2 keelynet.com>
References: <348DAD79.D98 bellsouth.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:30:39 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: [off topic, sorta] Transpacitor
Resent-Message-ID: <"k46KJ2.0.k83.24VZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13619
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry Decker wrote:

>Dennis Lee & Stan Meyer, watch out, you have competition;
>
>American Computer Corporation.....sells computers.....with their vast
>R&D facilities, they have managed to decode alien technology 'missed' by
>AT&T and IBM from documents 'and things' obtained from 'an unnamed
>source' that were retrieved from the Roswell crash site....gotta love it,
>and you guys thought I put out weird stuff....

Jack Shulman, the proprietor of ACC, also owns the name 'kasparov.com'
A few years ago, he put up a page advertising a chess academy, and
even claimed that Ken Thompson (of Bell Labs, co-developer of the Unix
OS and also a computer chess expert) was working on an internet chess
server for him.  This got him a visit from AT&T security who decided
he was a harmless, paranoid, fruitcake.

After Col. Corso published his Roswell book, in which he claimed that
Bell Labs got pieces of alien technology that led to the invention of
the transistor, Shulman put up a web page with his own version of that
story (with some additional details involving the mysterious death of
a Bell Labs VP) and ended up being interviewed by Linda Moulton Howe
on the Art Bell show...

Now he's made up another alien technology story (this time with both
Bell Labs and IBM involved).  I wonder how IBM will react?
Just where is ACC's ShadowLake R&D facility, anyway?

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:58:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15693;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:54:54 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348E1278.6A78 keelynet.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 19:54:32 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [off topic, sorta] Transpacitor
References: <348DAD79.D98 bellsouth.net> <v0311071bb0b39e3f82e7@[206.243.174.18]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uppvF1.0.7r3.iPVZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13620
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Ralph!

Thanks for posting that additional information....if it smells like a 
fish......
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 17:59:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00814;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:54:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:54:49 -0800
Message-ID: <348DF64F.2A7663E9 microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:24:23 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
CC: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: DMEC Research
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MWIBj2.0.bC.dPVZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13621
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All,

Thanks for the many supportive posts.

I am NOT giving up control, but if others invest money, they need to
know their input (money & advice) has weight.


Some points I can disclose :

1) I will not own a majority of the shares in DMEC.

2) DMEC will license the technology from a trust.

3) DMEC will own the marketing rights to any DEVICES developed, subject
to the agreement with the trust.

4) I will hold a board position and be Director of Development.

5) DMEC will develop the PMOD / RMOG technology for licensing.

6) DMEC may continue to produce SMOT OU toys.

7) DMEC will develop a 10Kw 50/60Hz RMOG unit aimed at the home market.



Regards,
 Greg

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 20:01:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03758;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:55:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:55:24 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <54e43160.348e10a5 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:44:59 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Update
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1PK6n3.0.bw.gAXZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13622
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg,  Send one Smot to Puthoff and Little to test or shut up forever.

Yuri, at least, to his credit, allowed several groups to test his equipment.



Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 20:30:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09150;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:25:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:25:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348E197A.B179285B microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:54:26 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
CC: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: DMEC Research & Control
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"a9qll1.0.pE2.1dXZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13623
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All,

Thanks again for all the posts of concern.

The technology, my SMOT / RMOG / PMOD research, is owned by my family
trust.  DMEC Research will license the IP (intellectual property) from
the trust on a exclusive basis under very strict conditions.  Failure by
DMEC Research to stay with-in the conditions as set down by the trust
license agreement will void the contract.  I will not have majority
share ownership in DMEC Research, therefore I can't force DMEC Research
to void the license and return control to the trust in the future.

Its all a balancing act.

I am trying to get agreement to send the 5 verification/gift SMOT Mk4
units ASAP.


Regards,
 Greg

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 21:27:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12771;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:20:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:20:32 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:15:10 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: My 4 cents worth Re: Update
In-Reply-To: <54e43160.348e10a5 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971209234902.24552B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Z2D_3.0.L73.UQYZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13624
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,


	I feel Greg in is a delicate position.  He said "balancing act".  
This may well mean he sees this as a viable way to get the technology out 
to the community.  I personally do not know the details of his business 
set up.  I personally would not make public, in detail, the business set 
I have with, for example people who support gravity research... of which 
there aren't any... but I can hope :) .... unless they said "Please 
reveal this because we wish to be presented in 'thus and such' a public 
light."

	Now for quite a good bit of time Greg has been doing work and 
making public the results.  I mean A LOT of information.  I personally 
had no trouble making a ramp from his instructions, but then again I had 
an edge.  I have been involved with magnetic fields, magnetic circuits 
and magnetic materials for over 20 years.

	Let us not forget what Greg has shared.

	I would also like to relate a real world story.  I know it is 
real, because it was me.

	I already wrote of this, but will recap briefly:

	a] people where discussing Starlite on the net
	b] I 'invited' the discussion to make Starlite  themselves
	c] I made my version of a high temperature material which was 
tested by Materials Directorate at Wright Patterson US Air Force Base at 
a level of 8,400/watts/cm/sq continuous wave CO2 laser exposure in free air.

	NOW:  I had to do a 'boat load' of digging, research and 
experimentation to get from .... a discussion of Starlite, which I had 
never heard of before, and invitation to others to get off their keyboards 
and into the lab, to final working material.  Again I had an edge, from 
my background in materials.

	SO: I say.... given the material Greg has presented, and given a 
medium level, as opposed to rudimentary level, of practical working 
knowledge in magnetic methods and materials, a group of reasonably clever 
people could get to where Greg is now.  Maybe not the exact same 
embodiment, but a functional equivalent.

	Greg has revealed FAR more  background to work with than many 
many investigators have been given to start with.  And  in many cases the 
investigators have suceeded.

	I have personally always tried to be a 'bootstrap' kind of guy.  
If I don't know all the pieces, and I have even a moderate chance of 
setting up a rig, well, then I try to get in there to do it.

	In this particular case, that of magnetic materials and 
methodologies, the materials are not too expensive or difficult to get and 
methods are reasonably well developed.

	Sometimes from idea to working takes a day to get to, example 
there was a horse trainer working in the Ohio, Kentucky, Tennesee area 
who said to himself "Why should I carry a brush and a tool to clean the 
hoof as two things.... I will tape them together and have one."  This is 
patented and sold and the fellow is quite well to do.  I will check to 
see how long it was from a taped together model to the first pre 
production molded gizmo.
	I know it took a bi tof time to make a useful pneumatic tire ... 
and improvements still are being made.  Maybe Jed can give us some 
timetable of some famous stuff... and how long it took.


	GREG:  How long have you been posting about SMOT?


					J

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, FZNIDARSIC wrote:

> Greg,  Send one Smot to Puthoff and Little to test or shut up forever.
> 
> Yuri, at least, to his credit, allowed several groups to test his equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Znidarsic
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 21:49:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18136;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:44:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:44:17 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:44:07 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712100544.VAA22218 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
Resent-Message-ID: <"aQ-Ht3.0.GR4.lmYZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13625
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Greg,

At 11:24 AM 12/10/97 +0930, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Thanks for the many supportive posts.

Thanks for sharing your research and hope to receive a SMOT, at #18 on the list.

>I am NOT giving up control, but if others invest money, they need to
>know their input (money & advice) has weight.
>
>
>Some points I can disclose :
>
>1) I will not own a majority of the shares in DMEC.

This sounds like giving up control?

>2) DMEC will license the technology from a trust.
>
>3) DMEC will own the marketing rights to any DEVICES developed, subject
>to the agreement with the trust.

This seems pretty broad.  You might want to divide the world market areas up
or have the opportunity to give licenses to other interested parties.
Otherwise your devices could be locked out.  You might want to specify that
the devices can not be kept from the market when completed and ready for
manufacturing.

>4) I will hold a board position and be Director of Development.
>
>5) DMEC will develop the PMOD / RMOG technology for licensing.
>
>6) DMEC may continue to produce SMOT OU toys.
>
>7) DMEC will develop a 10Kw 50/60Hz RMOG unit aimed at the home market.

Any time estimate how long it will take to develop?

>
>Regards,
> Greg
>
Regards,
Michael

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 22:19:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23623;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:15:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:15:36 -0800
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:15:56 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712100615.WAA01868 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control
Resent-Message-ID: <"9kVm5.0.0n5.7EZZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13626
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg,

>I am trying to get agreement to send the 5 verification/gift SMOT Mk4
>units ASAP.

Great. But there were others who gave as much as they could to the project,
spent much time and energy, did the experiments, discussed it, gave
constructive advice, and then believed in you enough to send in their
hard-earned money... what about us?

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec  9 23:08:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00066;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:03:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:03:50 -0800
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971210070529.00e48c48 mail.eskimo.com>
X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:05:29 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Gary Hawkins <ghawk eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"4LSL03.0.y.LxZZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13627
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 05:19 PM 12/9/97 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:
>> 
>> 1) DMEC Research will own ALL my work & ideas.
>>
>> 2) My web site will stay up.
>> 
>> 3) Updates to my site will be by the approval of the board.
>> 
>> 4) I will stay in the Freenrg & Vortex mail groups.
>> 
>> 5) Postings must be copied to the board.

If the board had a little imagination and/or capability, 
they wouldn't have to stipulate #5, but simply join the lists, 
and filter them to see anything from you or about you.

But they want to play God (#1), and that boots them out the 
door immediately IMHO.  Or you could say, sure, you can own 
all my future ideas, and they will cost you 10 million each, 
payable in advance.

Gary Hawkins

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 00:01:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06429;
	Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:52 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:55:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
cc: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Smot Kits
In-Reply-To: <348DE085.C59A5F5 microtronics.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971210004837.1465I-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"sWdzo1.0.Ja1.5iaZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13628
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Greg Watspn wrote:
Hi Greg, what happened to your^^ name from your server?

  >>Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:51:25 +0930
  >>From: Greg Watspn <gwatson microtronics.com.au>
  >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>To: "freenrg-l eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
  >>Cc: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
  >>Subject: Smot Kits
  >>Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:22:10 -0800
  >>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>
  >>HI All,
  >>
  >>The question of shipping the Smot Kits relates to WHO they will ship
  >>from.  DMEC Research or ME.  They will probably ship under the DMEC
  >>Research banner, that's what I want, but is not entirely my call.  To
  >>ship under DMEC Research involves many factors.
  >>
  >>
  >>The options as I see them are as follows:
  >>
  >>  1) Ship under DMEC Research Banner (85%)
  >>
  >>  2) Ship under my name              (14%)
  >>
  >>  3) Refund the funds                (01%)
  >>
  >>
  >>Regards,
  >> Greg
  >>
  >>PS, Don't jump too quick to conclusions.
  >>
  >>
Greg,
   Congratulations on your DMEC Research company you're forming.
Sounds good :) .. Do you personally think this will get the DMEC out in 
the world all that much sooner??  Hope so.  We've all been following right
along on the kits, and hope at least those 'special promised ones' will
get to be sent out. 
   Hope your new partners are movers and shakers. 

Best to you and yours
-=se=-
ffsmot'd :)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 01:04:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13406;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:00:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:00:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b3fa94a05b [199.237.131.243]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:01:38 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: No Mass, Really?
Resent-Message-ID: <"hysXt1.0.OH3.KebZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13629
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:50 AM 12/9/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>To: Vortex
>
>Since force, F = ma and a = v^2/r, mass = F*r/v^2.
>
>Then "spin", mvr = F*v*r^2/v^2 = F*r^2/v = n*h/2(pi)
>
>so, F = n*h*v/2(pi)r^2  =  dW/dl = .5V^2*dC/dl
>
>And since C = eo*l, what the l's going on?   :-)
>
>Horace, help?
>
>Regards,       Frederick

Good grief Fred, I'm up to my eyeballs in my *own* problems!

Maybe you unvectored yourself to never-never land?  8^)

Taking your:  F = .5V^2*dC/dl = (e0)(.5V^2)

F/a = (e0)(.5V^2)/a

m = .5(e0)*r*(V/v)^2

so the m comes right back from whence it disappeared.  8^)

I don't get it.  How did capacitance get into this wayway?  Seems like
maybe you should you should be talking about dipole moment mu = NiA?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 01:39:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16219;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:35:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:35:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0b412242989 [199.237.131.243]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:36:58 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Update - Twixt and Twain
Resent-Message-ID: <"JRWpD1.0.Dz3.T9cZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13630
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

OK, it' stime to start speculating, one of my favorite hobbies!  Here's my
guess:

BLUE OAK REPUBLIC

(or some other group tied to the founder:)

Millennium Twain
Post Office Box E
Menlo Park, CA
94026, USA


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 01:57:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20513;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:54:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:54:18 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:54:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <199712100954.BAA18394 joshua.math.ucla.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Update
Resent-Message-ID: <"cHfwk2.0.Q05.9RcZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13631
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Greg: you forgot one easy solution to all your problems: just ship
a bunch of SMOT's that don't work! This is the tried and tru strategy
employed by free energy advocates throughout history. :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 02:14:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22427;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:13:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:13:07 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:12:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Message-Id: <199712101012.CAA19006 joshua.math.ucla.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control
Resent-Message-ID: <"yNPcw1.0.FU5.oicZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13632
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Greg:

No matter how sure you are of your technology, you would be foolish 
to engage in a business venture without first consulting with a magnetics
expert to verify the technical fundamentals of your devices, and
the same goes for your putative partners. The very least I hope
you send out a few scientific demo SMOT units before your 
business plans get too grand. You never know what a scientist might find.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 02:50:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21669;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:44:33 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <348E6269.5179DD5D mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:35:38 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Scott Little <little eden.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <199712071459.IAA10808 natasha.eden.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2AD64141C197E78BEDCB57"
Resent-Message-ID: <"dL16C3.0.UI5.EAdZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13633
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------2AD64141C197E78BEDCB57
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Scott Little wrote:
 
 "It'd be really nice to have a non-contact
 position sensor and a recording device
 (computer) to log data with.  If you want to
 set up something like that I'll be glad to help
 ...after I've seen a description of your apparatus."
 
 Hi Scott,
 
 Thank you for your very informative email.  I'm
 attaching the specs as they appear in the manual --
 the language is a little strange at times.  I'm
 also attaching a downloaded jpg which looks very
 much like my balane.  I'm missing the base and
 the light, but I have just received a laser from
 Edmund Scientific, and I think I've assembled the
 components  for a satisfactory base.
 
 A "non-contact position sensor" hooked to my computer
 would be great.  I have an IBM clone of my own
 construction:  100 MHz 486 DX with an Adaptec SCSI
 AHA-1542CP controller daisy chained to a 2 gig
 Seagate, three 3.2 gig Quantum Fireballs, an
 external CD, and a flat-bed scanner.  I think I
 can add one more device, although my bus is already
 overly long.  I have serial ports and high-speed
 parallel ports available.  I run my tape backup
 off my floppy disk controller.
 
 I have a number of Radio Shack color computers
 which I operate under OS-9; and I can connect a
 coco as a terminal on my IBM clone.  I also
 have a TI-83 with a CBL (calculator
 based lab) which I can hook up to my computer.  (I
 need to buy a few things to do this.)  I can run OS-9
 on my IBM clone by means of an emulator.  It looks
 just like I'm on a coco.  I'll be waiting for your
 suggestions.
 
 Jack Smith

--------------2AD64141C197E78BEDCB57
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="leybtec1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="leybtec1"


Leybold-Heraeus Cavendish balance, model number 33210

STANDARD EQUIPMENT, Description, Technical Data

1. Metal casting with glass plate and inner acrylic
   glass screens to avoid air currents
   Dimensions: approx 15 cm x 8 cm x 2.9 cm

2. Small lead ball (2 contained in standard equipment)

3. Large lead ball (Spare Part No. 68332,
   2 included in standard equipment)

4. Swivel support for the large balls (3.)

5. Knurled nuts for locking the torsion balance

6. Adjusting ring for height adjustment of the swivel support (4.)

7. Short rod for securing to a permanent support, 12 mm dia.

8. Concave mirror for the light-spot indicator,
   focal length approx. 30 cm

9.Torsion band, made of bronze
Length:         approx. 26 cm
Cross-section:  0.01 mm x 0.15 mm

Replacement:

1 m torsion wire on plastic reel (Spare Part No. 68320)

10. Carrier tube for torsion band  (9.)

11. Torsion head for zero adjustments

12. Knurled head screws to lock the torsion head  (11.)

Furthermore the standard equipment comprises:

 2 scales, 1m, with mm-graduation, self adhesive 
(Spare Part No. 69032)

TECHNICAL DATA

Small lead balls

Mass: each m1 = 0.015 kg

Ball radius r1 = 6.9 mm

Distance of center of gravity from the axis of rotation:
d = 50 mm

Large lead balls

Mass: each m2 = 1.5 kg

Ball radius: r2 = 32 mm

Distance of center of gravity between large ball when
touching the wall and small ball in mid position:
s0 = 46.5 mm

Period of oscillation of the system: T = approx. 10 mins.
Logarithmic damping decrement: D = approx. 0.7
Directional quantity of angle of the torsion band:
D = approx. 8.5 x 10-9 Nm/rad

Difference between the light-spot end locations with the
large balls turned to the left or to the right:
S1 = approx. 0.03 L
(L: Distance between scale wall and rotary mirror)


--------------2AD64141C197E78BEDCB57
Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="leybold2.jpg"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="leybold2.jpg"

/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD//gBIQ1JFQVRPUjogWFYgVmVyc2lvbiAzLjEwYSAgUmV2
OiAxMi8yOS85NCAgUXVhbGl0eSA9IDc1LCBTbW9vdGhpbmcgPSAwCv/bAEMACAYGBwYFCAcH
BwkJCAoMFA0MCwsMGRITDxQdGh8eHRocHCAkLicgIiwjHBwoNyksMDE0NDQfJzk9ODI8LjM0
Mv/bAEMBCQkJDAsMGA0NGDIhHCEyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy
MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMv/AABEIAZABkAMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAfAAABBQEBAQEBAQAAAAAA
AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMABBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEU
MoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKCCQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFla
Y2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPE
xcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4eLj5OXm5+jp6vHy8/T19vf4+fr/xAAfAQADAQEBAQEBAQEBAAAA
AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EQACAQIEBAMEBwUEBAABAncAAQIDEQQFITEGEkFRB2FxEyIy
gQgUQpGhscEJIzNS8BVictEKFiQ04SXxFxgZGiYnKCkqNTY3ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZ
WmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqCg4SFhoeIiYqSk5SVlpeYmZqio6Slpqeoqaqys7S1tre4ubrC
w8TFxsfIycrS09TV1tfY2dri4+Tl5ufo6ery8/T19vf4+fr/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/APG2OD7U
qY47ZpjHnHvUiDC5PIqzdDscnJ/ClApmefSlBweM/WlYocAQemKCPmxRk54P60H1oFuNkOF6
VASAPc05iWfnoKT7zZ/SnqJioOMnrU69KjB+XFOTrjBpMEPdvlA9KavClqU1G7kcDpQikQud
zmpolwKjxgZ9fWpo+EHFDbHYcSNhqBwTgmp8cGo2XEec9KEDHRHC/pUv3TUCfd5/OpEbKkAm
kwTFYkngYNSYyB2IqMfKnIGakDDFJaalig7j0xSODxgU5Bz1xSSMSANtF2IiYEHNOU4PrTkB
K1GeDg8Uai2J3UeSx64Br6k8Czb/AA1px6/uFH6V8uKSUI9utfTnw8ff4Q0tx0MIxXFiviix
9Gdq33a+ZvismPiPdEfxW6H68mvpnGVr5t+MCFfiGx9bRP8A0I10X96/kRQ2kefzbgPaqhJB
4q1JljyOKqt0P+NbXuadCGYDggU9z8ie60xsk09kwoPtQyQjBJGancYXioE6A1OArHB/lQ2x
oQfczTSwFSysqpiq49cmiIMaxxzTc84ociliQk57VSZJE42Ng9x1q1bp+5HNRXCncvX/AAq5
GpWNQR1FTdtj2KV0reYFPTGaspG0QjBxyM1Fc4+1Ic8KAcUhmeRtw4x0xRdvQNCSeTapGcUy
BSsDHqTzUQDSSBSc85NWnHyEe3FUxFS2++xPYcCpJslQKZDyWB/nUknQDjim3rclkiHbGgpR
wep5ppOAvFOLYxUJldCG3JBZT+FPKFM4IwfWoH4ckcVOG3JnGcdqq1hEYGXqXGD6e1Rx4D1P
n2GfWl5CI8HJFOxSjOc0uDQAnf2psjFBTmO1cmq+/wAyQnnAoADnb6E06MfL701uW9akXOKY
hwFITt5GKa7knaBSHP3aQx6txu60wuTn3oIwoXH50m0+lMY0n/IqZDgAZFMxjjFKudwGDSAs
LjFBAaM0gBxinAAj/CpZSKwyjYqbGRTJE5z1pY244qm7itqPIyue47U6PvkUm44pRjOQPwqC
iQMWOO1OVTkknNRoRuqYjAyaLgyNjgjg4prLk5x06U4g7unFDjBHJp3BoSI8EdsdK+mvhc4f
wPpZ6nyq+ZAMPuzwa+kfhHOJPAumqOqqQfzrkxGjj6iex6L2r5y+NKD/AITyInqbNcfgxr6N
7V88fHGMp4wsZMjm1I6f7X/166bO+hNDqeaEkJlcGqhOSc1aLZBPXNVDkk/WqW5oiJxg5qcD
fEmOhFRScHFTqwSEZPahsRE7bV20+JyUx3qu75apITiQL696prQS3JZee3NQlcjrVopkZ61U
mkAJVcZoWuwNDcgSYBzUyuAMVUXjqcGpkPy4/Wm0Sh0uZJEA9etWpHEcZLHkdKq4x83pUM0p
duMdOKSjqU2MJaRiW9eKcM8KO9SQ25YZPA70/wAsI2fTmqk9dCdSWOERJk9fWnBd3INRq7SH
np6VMAADzio1KRUQCO4IHenynPOOagP+tBFTPwMVSIYucquKXYxPpimA8KMfiKkCknqKBlaT
75zU8SfJx3qCXibAyKtISoHGacthLcjRMHOfwqYHjNMbCjPakLbUqQJN2R70wyYHr61AZR3/
AJ0wAyHGPyp8oD5JA3B/SnA7VxinLDt5JGfSmOxo9AYg6k96e0hC7QMmmgEDJ605Ac5J60MS
ExhevJp6DBzSk8H0pucRnFJ6D3HZ3MeKXgHgYqNODmguc+1BQpPzU8feHNQluRzjNTr83HHF
DAkXj2pep4NNxS9KmwxpzgjtUY/GpP4qGXB607oGgBz3p3QimUoJA4NIBwGw8dz+VTE5xgni
q5fHOKlZyQMZIpFbj+RzijJamKxx3BqQHjrQIag5wRX0H8GH3eCrUEHgsOT718/pjdn+de9f
BJ9/g5PaZx+tceK+yvMdtGer9q8A+OSAeI9NY9TA4/UV7/2rwf46pjVdJYdxIP5V1faRlR3Z
5Efkz0wagc88etTSciqqtyQa0NUEvQevalJxEp56Ch23AHjFRSNu4A7YoSuKQ1SGfnoauReT
HyBzVaGIsfQVIYxmnJiSHTXGQQq496qdTmpWRj2zTo7bdyxwPpVXFuNhi8x/aibCybRxip5W
8uMRpwO5qpjL9anzDyJ0gaZeGOKmSCOFcnBNJDwnSpX2uQRx7daV7jsI0g2kn06VAnzK5zU2
Ix17dqrSygIRjAJ4FFrjYWxzuHvU7HCk1Ws+jEHvUly5VOnNCWomVDgvk9qsS8gE+lVgTnPa
rBOUFXazJHpgqpNJJLg7VGKZkhOelImM0n3C4jZefrkdwasD26VDGPnNTAfnQIRhg8/rVZzl
sc5NSvM8gwi4NCRbBnPJpbCFjhzjJB9qmAAGAAKjDBexzSyOcfKKOoWHt0xULL3oG7g80m8l
zlRiqVhiEc9eaehOMGmAZpe+KQrkn+eaY/J24wKeoOelIq5cnpSY0IFOMUmw4yanC5prvtPH
WlfUqxHtLMO2Kkj4JFIrfI2Ryaeq5Ge1HUPQcT2pO3Wmk+lPx8vT8aBjG6H6c04YIHOKOxxT
Y/ukdxSYxw6UYoIwaVT19aevQQhWlBxxil60qjI4OaTGIxKkdCDUijcOvSmDrg09Pl4xSemo
y/p2j3urztHZQeZsALtnAX617l8IdPn0zRJrS4KNKkpJ2Hpk1ynwcl2LqiOiSAzIMMPY17db
2trIn/HugB9K86pN1J8gpOy1NAdB9K8l+L3h2fXrzTVtriKJ4t5beCc5A44r1QWduvSFfTmn
eTHGMpGoPsK7nzJXMKclF3PjXVLK80fUZLG+gaGVRkZzhh2I9qyn+/nJr1747jdrmlOQP9U6
nH1FeSEHBrSL5ops6GgJyueoqBj1qTPBFQnOOD9auOxMtSzC2Fx2p+Oc1FEcJmpA9TYCaOPP
1pZpRENucmoGnbBVQBUGC5yTTS7hcV2LHpTVHOTVgR4jOajI4OB0ovfQViyigR5zxjpTRGSO
Dz61XjJYBelWA2zFK2pVw8hgw3N05qnN8zkA4FXtzsDxVNk71S3JaJLfAiJxzmopmJfinQuA
SuPpzT0hz88n5A0L3WFrkccBwWJIHvQzgr8vQUk0hfAHSjH7ojuaNbiBj8iAnr0qaNFC7s5N
QbdzDPaphMFwFG6h+QAqjdk/mKQtsPX86aQ7c4C0ggx1bNPRCJwgAGTQxA56CnleORVWVvm2
joDUi3HkgjIprdB/OmpyfansMD1poB28bB396QY2ZB74pnQUo7CkAqinE4FAFNk6UwHIc08E
LnvUAOF60b+KTQ0yV5OoFRZLt0pnLH1qxGuBQO4mzCHjoPSrCMrRggiq7EFmzzToW+Ug8+1J
3GiRxnpzS98CpFAZOmKQrjnrSuPYTHFMBwxFPBydqqzNjoATWnp3hbXNVhM9rp7eX2Mh25qW
7bjMphkEdqEIP4VszeEfEsPXR5WHqjg1my6Xq1szGfSrxfcRE/ypqSegmRlKFJHXio3uDEcT
RSxH/bQikW6hP3XX88UxkmSeOtPjb5cdx61EJkY4BX86VG5NAz1L4PMWk1Vev7xP/Zq96sxh
a8A+DePtOsjr88Ofb79e/WZ+UfSvMbSrCn8Bfpr9DTqa3SvRl8JyI8B+Oaf6fpTA8ZkXH5V5
Cy17L8dk50lwOBNIP/Hf/rV452zSpK0Ed0uhAwwfXnpUR4bB61O/IqN1xg1qQySJNyDJ49qk
288UyE5XrUlLUCJh60Lge9OYHvUf8VO90ImJHl+hqIsAh4605s7KhbhQOeaVu42xYSPOXPIJ
6VeUK3IFU1XnJ6VMFywPOPSjqJLQmkACMQegqrtDrjPSpZQqplQOaZbqPmOeRS22GVSSrYHU
U/eTzk01zuckfjTe5q99SNheMdaevKdR1pAuTVzAVAP0FK66ha5TjQyyEnAA/GppmCFUHT2q
UsqgHGfYVTJG73o3GSNweDTRKw64/GkHPajbn/GmS2WyRiqcvLZ7Uu55DgdKRxjjOaLCHQMp
JJ7UsmCOOlRL3z61IeRQxCH7oxSg4pp607bzQNj1zn601uTwacQMUw59OKBDGYlvSgknoKaX
w2O9TRg96RQsa8c1IThSMc+tIDSHk+9AIaBliacnXFKi45NInDY96B9Tf8NeHdQ8UazHpmnK
gdl3PLIfljXuTXo0HwNuU2vd6xb3GOTHGhQfTPOa4/4e2aya7PfLNLFPawbo/LOOp9a9Sh1z
WInyNQcj0ZQ1efUrS53FPRHTGi5K6Kh+HM1uu2C0GMYzDNjPv0rMn8A3sThwuoRjuAN1ddF4
q1OMfvGt5DnvGR/I1bXxhc97GBvcSlf6Gl7R9xOjLscCPDd7bnAvrmM4+61q2P51N9m1WIgx
6xG3syMM/ma7v/hMZckf2W3/AAC4/wARU8fjO3biSxuo8ccqGoc22S6cl0OCWfXlX78Dj/ey
Kjln1VgVn0a3mH98AGvRv+Eh8O3BAuCgPpLARSiHwpecIbQn/ZcqarmIcbbo8un0q3vGaO48
P2e4cHPyn9KzrjwboMmSdNMZP/POQjFezHwppMwzEWUH+5LmoT4It+iXsy/VQ1CnK5MlHozg
PAGg2mi6heC0Vws4jLKzZxjOP5mvY7MHYK5yx8INp1w01verlsAhoOv610qNNGoHlxt9GI/p
UqN6nMxSl7tkXKQ1W+0yg/8AHuf++6jlvJ1U7bb6Hdn+ldrnFIxUJM8r+M+i3+rQaaljb+dI
kzMQWxxtNeM3HhPxLAGLaJckDunzfyr3vxJJr9xOzRaazqG+Vy35cYrhryw1ea4aS9F3n+5G
CAPasYVLI7uXRI8qkstRtzibTb2M/wC1C1VWlQZDhkP+0pr1vZJEQy3Go2v+6zUsGu38Evlj
WbghTx56hh+ORVqqzOzPIkmTpvWplJPzA5B9DXrya5LcjN22mypnrLaDn8QarXUejSkCfw3p
Nwf70bNGT+WapVfIR5ZnioW4PFd3qGn+FUGW8OSRsSOLfUWJH4FaonQPDUyl1fV7NR7LIB/K
mqndA9TlBlsClERMqgnkkV1C+GPDYfH/AAl9xbE8hbjTT/PfV618BwagT/Zfiixu2Xkj7Oy/
1NU6iEcv5O0ZJB/Cq5YYrr7z4a+KoraWeCCC8ijUs3kyHdgcng9eK4lnyMbSrL8pB7GhST2K
asSTYwuD3pIiEViRzVZ/ujJ71Hk+uapR6kXH55Jp2zNMBIIFWI+aqQEIJVu9Wy4KgrUXlgq2
Tg4qMMRgYzU2TBE8yjA7H3qvtA71YYllyDxUSoSaEDBV45pCfanuDkYpgHYVSE0SAeWDVdiX
NSMwIwDUXQ5oRmOGBzSg8ZxTC3FLnjpSGKDl+1T7QR0qrHjzDxirIPFDAD0qGRtqGpc8HJqD
/Wy54wKEhoIELHJxirPQYpVGAB6U1jyetAXuJnA5o3daB+f0p2OMgUhgpzSEEMM8UoAFITk0
Dudv8OZP+JvexjktbfyJr0Rea8w+H0pTxQy5+/ayD9K9PTha8yorVGd9F3gL7ClANJ74oBxU
ruaki+hpwOemaiyTTgTjnFDVwTJgSO5pQSetRqd3HWnqePpStqVcDBE/JiQ+uVoW3jUhk3IR
gfI5XH5GnKT/APqpzZCE7u3Wm3YEkyzBd3sGRFfXA9AXz+hq9Br2rRdboOP9qOte4tIpYIyq
qBsGOK5G/vZ7O1luhbwyJFIIypJUknoaKc+dXRi3Tau0dFH4nv1PziFx/uEf1qceLLhfvWUL
/SUr/wCymuP03VzqZmjNibdoiPnEm4MD7Y4q+rZ7VfNJMFRpTV0jpF8XPnD6awHfbMD/AEFT
ReL7RjiW2uY8d9m7+VcsPXHBpcdaPaMTwlM67/hINEuBiSVQO/mRkUgi8PX42qbVi3YNgmuT
JOOtKHYZzjB7GlzC+qLo2dLN4P0O7QgQR4I7HNZNz8KPD11nMW0nuF/wrOKxkfNEhB9qcqrG
f3fmRn/YkYVSmT9Vn0kRS/BTR+Gt7uWBxyGVTx+ZrNu/gg0uWh1tifR0/wDr1vLd3cX+rvrl
R7vu/nVmDWtWiAH2sOPR4s1ftVe5Dw1VdUcvYfCAWV6s+oXDX2zhQy/IPwBruLHw3b2iJ8qj
H8IXAH4VAfFN7FsMkcMiBgG2gqSDx710Mj7n3AYBANY1Gm9yXGcNJIrsDBFJ5JVZAh2kjIBx
xxXyLrFxc3+tajdXciyXD3DmRlXaGOeTivrqU5UjHUEV8h6iduq6gvYXMg/WunDNJNIGly6m
a+OAKYcKcHrU0h3H2FROOOOK7FYxYDmnplTxxSRj5exqROtK4DxJnqKFXJNIUz1NIUIPBo0A
cBsJB6VJjiogJOmCakRJD2FF1YLC4xnJquZNp4Wlmf5sAg/SmBaa0EyQxkdv0qNhjtz71OcY
z0qJz1NCM7lcllf2+tOYkKOmKTHc9BStjbn+dMBYiGJ46VMzAACorfhT704j5/pSeg0IxLfL
2NSRqBhelNAwTTgDsJH50MEOZgH296MnNRqDnNOcHqaaGOyM80uaYPrS5OKTGKzdOelKxyRU
ZPvSjqDSYHTeB5Fj8X22f442XrXq65ryHwlIY/GGmf7UhXHrkV68h59TXmVn+9dj0KHwDjxR
1p2DjNH86iJs0NOQR2pynnOKMUmDjpTtZi3HrnOcGpFJ5yMVGB2p/OKbGSZJ6ZpxyUPb6VEs
hJPrU3VTx+VQ1oUjutg+ww+vliuA1eMnTdUQj7s0bAAfWu/TB06D/rmK4XV0YW2sL8oTykY8
85DcUUuhxx+FmP4f5ubsAH7qnk9f85rfGccZrnvDj7p7lcnhFI/OugXI561o3ds3or3B49Bw
aTGM9MmgZ9Kdglalm6BQT15oHXijBznmhfvdabQIXHSjn0o5/CjOD6UkguPBBFOBPSo8/jT1
J9Pxoei1BMjuARESG7jn8a7f+Ac/wj+VcPd/8e7Hvx/Ou2J+Ucdh/KobtJehy4laojkOAfpX
yDq3Gs6h6fapP5mvr1jwfpXynrWlzNquovD84NxIQuOev612YbldzB/CYDHocmmudyn6YpSC
HKkYYdQRg0h9K7rpbGGokR/h4qdeDVdT+8qwp5pSXUCQjBBqREBquoLtnkelW+IxknFQOw5V
xyar3E+fljqOa4L4AOP61APwH0q4xE2KBk1Mq4HIz71GGA5xk03zGb2Aoa1EiUZIwaaQcUve
jGaDMiI7gc1FIfl61YYbRnioJRmqTQEsI+QfSnLyxoUbYwfahTUjDPOB+tPZgkfJxULOcnGA
KRgXcHORTAfFICxGfpxUjN781HtEePWgknoODSGLnHXmkJ70Bc9/wp6gY6c07gMzmpBS56np
SI3U44pDRueE43l8XaWVA2xzBnJ7Lnk17BlS7BXB+borZrxTRJFj1dC2OY2APbPauvVHN1ay
qh+SVTkdAM81w1YXnzHVSqWVjvge1PB44xVKO8gLY8xBnnn1q2jhl3Agj1FYJu2p16dB5PFI
AfelGDzSnk0wDHP9KcMZ5FNGelPUHntS6WGPxnJNOU9aTBbuacoOeopNaDR3Nlj+yLVhnJj7
1xmrlFGqxscNLa5X3w3SuusLqE6RbbpVBVcYzya4/wAS6gVkBij24/ibv1ogk7HJG6uYPhjH
2yYKcf6P0/4EtdCcg4xWV4bkea4vzKoDsgIbPJ+YVuSRMpHvTlZSZ0UdYkWCAMUoPFABx0xS
gZHSkzYBwMd/WjODRil56c80X0C3cQ4pOQc07HGKTk9MUACnIxTx2qLB9OKepxgUaXAZeEfZ
2z0/+vXaufmAxjgfyriL04tpD7dq7ZssQfYfyqZJXTOavrJEcn3T9DXz01orateNkgLcuD+d
fQrglTk9q8HnXdrd/gYxcPkfjWtFW5jFq8TC1jRor7o37xRhHx09q46W3eCRo5BhlOD/AI16
bPBuj3pwRXLeILJZomn27ZYgWLDuAORXbTqPYzcVY5cYzx+tDZxTe4NOz+db9TEVC4PrUrxy
yL0202MnPPFWN3ygDFTfUroVxbMfvNTjbqvJbP6VIZDnPIx60hLH+GncVhIYkOSR+dPICjgC
nD5RxTSQUOTzipuOyKwPNOzzxUY4FIXI6DOavcxHEgN61HkO2PSnGNnOScVJsCDjijQBsjBV
GcgUm4sOBTiO9A6+lFgGhCe/SnAYoJpwNACfeNLtxSjk89accdBzSGIDnjHHrSkqgyajeYR8
dT6VJY2j39yFAOOpPTFDaWrBIII5byURxpwerelbtjogUqHOWz1K1o2NqttEIoz7cVsW1uqg
luo/CsJVOw1qVYNPMKnbFuHc1OsZEZJXgc1sWwIwQ23HcUkzAXGVClScnPWsmzSJmwg8EA46
ZzV2JM4ZGIkHQgkc0pALEgYA7U9YWbEqqVAOODxUySsbRbRbS/u7fh084ehbB/OtW0vILyIN
Ew3fxJ3WsFZ9km1hz604wGdhNbyFZUORiocOpvCp0Z0oXpmn5qhp2oC+QkpsmU4Zc1eGTweK
zujckXPHNSAc8VGvWnjOetDKR0dnpthfaPbvc2sUj88kcj8a5jW/D+nxTr5UbIp7Bziut0Ib
tHhC5PzMP1rM8TNDZCKaR1zuK7e/+eDUUpN/icknq0YWk6R9lunlhndVMRDIeQeRWoWPSoNI
uDePdSqFUiFvlznjctSZ7f0qn8TN6LvHUU/SkGcmkGSaXkUbG24vOB2pexH50i9MU4dOeBS1
BCFcc0gFOI460Drinuw6DTxTQeelOdtqk44rHuNeitmlDxNujUNgHO6qSctiJSUdzSvADauT
x8veu4wWCnk/KPx4ryu38T22pKLZYZkll+VVIyM/Wta/8b6leXL6No9j5MyARNPI2TnAzgYo
9k72Zz1pc7TidjquoWWk2Tz39wkK7ThSeW+grwua4hl1K5ntmJWSUt8wxnJrS8XaZ/Y1rb3O
o2ktzqF3JsE8sp+XjJIH+etc/aKXk+bqWHfNaqCUboztb3TVPygr61m3UW5mU55HP41ryJtP
3ceorMnAds5zn2q4k2OB1C1+yXskOMAEEfQ1XFa/iKLydRCHqYgR+ZrFBI6V1wd1cwkrMkBp
8ZG7k4qDew6D60ocZ680WEX8jHT86N2DkmokfccHqKeVyevFIpDnOe9QsOKkIJHAoKZUD0ov
YVihzTh1BoxTgKvUwFyfTigAk9f1pD0o7YzQgHnpyKaTyKbyKOaBpDvxoHXmgD/OKQkIu/0o
AmGApJqCWXBKjNJ5zSfwgD60ijnOKEhiQws7qMZJNdjpNn5NuqqfUYrE0iAyXXmNH8idOa6m
Bjv4UAZ4FYVZXYyzHC6sABmrltCpySNjmolg8xec49KsJ5ce1WU5JwuOxrN6mkUXooXVwGIw
P1qd7ZXbJIX8KlsA5gKHkhs81O7mJN0mCwP6VnfsaKNjNjTazBj8pBUDFIrGNgo6VNK5fkDh
jxgU0R5wD1HqKGi1sPaKKTAYfP2NTQwZJJJBA4qIR/OBnng4rRjkaymjmEauOeD0ov0KUb6m
MZXtblbuPBZc7h2YV06sHAZTlSMg1zkhDSlQNqnOO+Kj8P3Ot26C1mu4JYgcjfFyB9c1k6et
0bqpZanWA1Khqk11MOlujf7rkVJ9okU/PaTRg9D1ocGUqsToNOttSuLNZLTVFhiDEGJoCwP4
gisvX7HUgkbf6HMN2DhmQ/1qex8UW2mWHlpBJcSmQ8FtgA9zisvVNVl1z93eWkbW+f8AVKxG
fxopxbV5HPKpZtdCvoM90t/Mo00urxMryRyggDIyenIGK2dpxwazfDtqtvfTW0Nu0cC27hI9
2dvINaYDcDBzSa95m9FpxG4xxTxyKbzn7ppeeKRqKODS5x2pq5x1/CrMFuZVLsDsX9TTbSQ2
Qck45NAyCK5/xRcz28LGW4+zRkjEatz/AI9q5O08Q6tY3vnwXUksDAfuJckEVcafMrmMqyi7
M9Km5Q8VyWpgjzSMdB9a2tF8QW2uxthPIul5e3Jzx6g96sT6Ta3QPmxkhhg4JFKL5XZimvaq
8TgtOJ/tS3AU5Mi8jtVXVp3i8QXggDNK02EVepPbArsf+EUs7Kdby3llTyTvCE5BrvND0PTt
KWS7toc3V2A8s7nLHI6fSlKaTujJxcI2Z53ZfDHVNfjtr7Wb17IxvuMP32dfrkbT+dYsNjHb
311ECWjgnMak98V7mRmvE0Uf2zq2QB/pTnrjNFPmkm2wTvdsW5GOMdqyZ23naRn0rTvJF37g
wwFA249KprH5iPIOy5x7VutEQzi/FGFvbWMkblgPT0JOP61gNkdRxitfxFcCXViF/wCWSLGe
c8jJz+tZXLc11U/hMJ7kIbrgc07ngcZ704KMYpwq7k7j1YjBHFSLMR1FN2jAowelS7BqWFkB
5GPcGnMePl79apnpSb2HQ0rBcb+FJjmjPtSr6VZjcSk3jpT+/THvS44oGNH0p2OKTpTWkxx/
FQl2AVnCDJzUDSMe/FPKkjJ5pCBimNMdGcqKeR+VQxHD46g96n4xSegzptCjC6UshGWkYkds
YNdBbwoY8EVz+hZNggLfKNwH51uWkn7wBun8q422NJXNe2iVmzlhkYqQQ5UDfgZ6+ppkWXUA
Egd8HpWjbOsMO1wXUH7xPIpXsapE1qrKAADVo28kj7duT19eKIpBBcR5jJDHl+wFd1plzp0F
hchwhudh2EdWBGOKlNN2RbvFXOMg0qSW4SEjDMMgYq1daSLZG3ZZ1HIFaqTxwyoR0xgjNM1S
7ikQuJB0xWcr82h1QiranJ3YKyLIVySAAB2qw9ziHymQAjrg1XuZg0+R0AIxVGMgOzck59af
L3ITtsJLy5q5pEzRaoICqujKfvDpVedAuGGenJx0pLUD+2rcE9PSs6nwm0I3ep0rQWz/AHoB
n1Ukc0JbrGxMc00effNPX26VIO+efakpOxbpxZqaVbXN0rs+rGMJjKGMEkfXPtVjUBZNGlsk
m193M5WsUfXp604OyngkH2NVFvqzJ0NdDRbwlHMokXV413d9vJ/WsK90J7SXZBfyNjuFIH86
0kuZgQd2ceozTo7q4jOVmb6ZyKpSsSqEu5jCK/jIxdHg91qT7RfJ95o3H+6RW19ulP8ArI4p
PZkpHe0lXLWKKT1KOQTT511QvZ1FszFOrTRjD2Y9tjn/AApmseOJ7XTLeCx04xODhppGyFPr
gf1rVa1sZV5E8R7/AMf+FRa14UZfDjzW18ZY5wrBTHjbg5Hf8Ka5HqlqQ+dNKZxl74ljeR4L
qJNRyAXmcbGBPp9Kz4jDcXGRwv8AKsO6UiVm2lZAcFTxzTINQMB2sDx3FbRjoZVH0OhvriDR
9QttQsiWlhAJzwCSMEfka9Gt7mO9tYLmEEJMgdfbNeLXV6brKRqWyO9eoeCXLeDdNLH5wrqf
oHbFY4iKupG2Ek0+U2Lni2kP+ya621O6xt85z5a/yrlLs4tpO/ymustv+PODngxL/KuZyszX
EdCQjjmvCZ3P9uaoF6C8cHj3r3Xqa8KllH9t6vHsBxdv/Ot6T0b9DGOzGSgt3zjmqN/dLbad
czZAEaEgZxk44FT3NxHADvcKAOprite1SPULhBbj/R4lxuP8bdz/AJ9K6YLmZDdkZJLPndyz
ck+pNICVGDz+lIDu79aXGOAOK6tjnYjUqAgetHXnGaVeFpegh4NSYyARwKhAzT1PHWhoExWG
BgU0KSOM1JkDO6mSTlhsjH50ARnBFIeKf2x1pjemSMUGYmfel3YGScU0AnrQybsA0/UENL+Y
doHy+tPVQo46UY2LimHng96q4DmbcOKCMLginBcACjAx7VKGQZ2tkelWB9KhdcZ4496liPyg
Hg05MZu6LIuwpjnJretH23CqepOMCuRsJvJu0PUHgiutjYvtkKjGfmA71yOO6KWjOlgbymdS
oyw2kGpMMU2HkZwRWXp7q7Mu3G3kZPSr6xhfmU7lPJ71FjVGnan90UchgeDmppZZIkRIicYw
Pm6Vm2kgEbkE8dFOetSwzNJcBHAY/dGex96VupotrFz7aZBsdv3gHIHf3pGwY23MQAOKpiQx
TyRyAB1BzinmY+SegBHI61LZoiGSTDbuv0FQuwEgYccdCe9N/eOeCOuRx2pVZvOIZVEZ64NA
Gkk6zQAZCkfKRmn2OmXo1bL2sxRFzuVSRVTUbpbTTLi6fA8sFvTJqLRfja1g0jXHhxnLhfmh
ucdPYrWbpymrpFupyLTc6kHBAJwf9oEVMvPQ9aWw+OPhO8AF4l5ZN6TRbh+YzXRW3ijwNrRA
i1bTJG7AyBD+uKr2LjsT9ba+KJzwU9alUH/Peuq/4R3SLlM2soHfMcuRUT+Fu0d8c/7UWf60
nBlrF03uc8Fpr/StuTwxeDJjuIpPwKmqUui6lCxBti49UOalxZpGvTeiZnjmn4zStDNESJIn
XHUlTim9R1zSa0saJp7CgcmtbR7wfNps3+qmOVYn7p64/SsnBoxkY5xStZ3RM4c6szL8W+BB
d3r3EEoimPBO3cG+v+Neaal4c1WwlcS2jSIvV05GK9wh1V1tRbXEXnRr9184ZazdRs7e85We
SME/d8rP65rojVfU43RkeL21hPLKIhGQ7YCr9a9h0exOmaNaWBbPkpg8Y5Jyf51HY6Xb2T+c
oLzDIEj9Rn0/Cr6/XrWVV879DehS5NWR3Y/0eQY52muqtGLWFtn/AJ5Lz+Fctc4Fu+Oymum0
wh9LtSOnlLzWDvzWHiehaA5GK8IEEs/ifVI4H5kvJFJI4HPrXurEjOOvrWFpPg2ybUri7nlm
m3OXCH5VBP0rdSSTXc501FNs4jSvDkMNyiOiXEkhwRt4wf6V5P4wsLbSfF+qWNoB5MUo2j0J
AJH55r6P8YeKvD/grTXWeeKOfyy8NlEfnlPQfQZ7mvmDU9SfV9TutQlQI9zIZCoPAzXTQjNO
8jNzUo6FAN844qRiBUQIEq449jUpXPNdTMuhHv8AmxtpSM04DB96cxxyaEyWRjpQKcU3HPem
DIP0oeoEg9STimxDdJ6UucgDBzSg7CMCkA1iO1R8s/sKkCEGhV5PUc+lUyBCMrwPxptTnAHP
SmBMnIFIBjYAFJjJFDjLY96d70xIUehoPTFNBo5J44pDI2XHOTxT4+nPNI8ZI6/nREOoHQGn
e4yUc8Vv6TdiVRGx+df1rAwSa09EsJ9V1NLeBvLKjc8pGQgH+PSsqqS1KjqdbazsgXoR9Olb
VrfiEFuM9MY7VlNpTWrMI5GZT3I60scb+YMMAB1zWMl1LizUE/mq7RsozzyKPtQjXaxYMeeB
1qtuxnK844qEyP8AMhibd06VKRomXXuGkbJBJ9TSGdlUD1qgGdTkIeO1WoDLIy/JgdznpSeh
a1F80pIpxlj+FS+Zk5IJLHCr6mk+zzSSHaQxJ6V0Wm+G3hlE93L86j5QV6VE3b1NIK5m6p4Q
vfFCW9rHqEVjawDLsULl2PtkdMeveq9v8GrXn7R4guZmz0jg2D9WNes6Z4bEsCtLLsTsijn8
a2oNCsbfnyy59WNOHtJR93YzqVaUZdzy2y+Fvhi0JLWUlw3rNKT+lbsHhPSYSFttItFA6Yhz
XoaRwwgBEVR6KtP3Hsv58VfsZPdmH1lLZHBr4SLAiOxjUH22V0On6bf2cQRmSQAYAZzn863A
G7kflUXmsJSjAY9aJUor4mQ68paWKu68BIFoufUTcfypA2pDn7NBj3lOf/Qa0Fp1aKmjLn8j
JudVNnHvngOB1CHP9KWG7tL+MOYSVYZyyU7WIRJaN2PtS2MO3T7Zf+majn6Vzty5+U3tDkUl
uQSaTplzwIgpJzlTiq0nhaBh+7uJEH0zXmvxM+JcllcXHhzRPluVOLm8DZ2dQUA9ffNeP22q
atpzebY6vfW7g5ykzDJPfFbqinG7NIuotVI+on8Kyj7l4rezR4/rVObw7qET/KEkX1B/pXh2
m/FXxppoUHWFukHa4hDZ/Ec11ulfHfWHnSG90azlGCXlimaMdPQg1MqMUUq1ZdbnbSWV3Bnz
beVcf7JNRbhjhsH0PBqrP8ZYbLTLe+vNDkVJgeIbkOV5x6CprL42+DL5Qt1NcWjEcrcQEgfi
M1n7FW3NPrVRbxC6b/RXI/umui0ltuj2zMcKsQyTwBisTVPiV4Bs9Pk1GK+tbyeNcxwQ53uf
TGOPxrxXxh8RNU8YzvuzY6e2ALVHzkYx8zYGfyprCNy5mxSxCqLax6H4z+LlrpM8um6NEl5d
bCDceZhIm5HTHJHBryHVPFGv6yzf2hrd3KrLgxq5VMemBwfyrIAQDCLwKd5YIz2rrUYxVkZO
TIUjjVeFGfU9aRowT6VIFwCAOc04Ix5OMVRBBsYH1Iq4kZ257mo8Y5FSiTI55pO4ETBaRUB6
07aPrQpwTkU1sSNK47CmmMngipt1H40J21GyofkPXr0pw5qdolfnPNMVdlO5LInJUbgOlPJz
0pTytMUfNxxSIAnJwDjilT7pFIpO9jj1ANPjHBFA2RsAeR9KAMingdeP0pzcAUxEQGB0pByS
cjFSuNsbHuKiVOOelAxSCwpoypNSKvfNBXKHjmjcCVDlRXb/AAzmQaxf2cigCeIEMT0xzXBq
xVcdRV7R9UudH1OHU7YAyxE/KejAjGDWVWDlGyKTse9S6J8pLQM8bcbgMgisKbwmxnJtNR8l
f+eM8Jcfgcgip/C/xb0G5aOHVI5NLnJAJb548565wMCvWNO1bTdUgD2eo2l3ETjKODmub31u
jRySVzxSTw5rkLDYtjcAHtIUz+BFQroevsSsunRjtkXA/wAK+gRZWx5MEP8A3zTltLVekEQ+
iitFGTJ9tHseDw+FtRIxL5MY7kvmtiz8FPNtzcSSc/dihOD+Oa9gkns7RS0ssMKjqXYKK5zV
viV4R0VW+1a3bM6rny4W8xj+C0exb3Y1XfSJnaX4KkgG5USFh0Zzlh+FdBa6Ha6eGnml8xlG
S7jAXFeZ6p+0LYxSbdI0G5vEx/rZphEM/QK2f0ryfxh4317xnMh1S4VLaNiY7aEEIv19Tx1N
VHDR6g6lSW+h0Pib4s69qt5NBo162n2EbsEaL78o9Se34etcZLq2sTTrPLrF88q8q7TMSP1r
PU8YHGKkGc1tZL3UXzdT0fw98ZPE+iJsvTHq8PGBKfLkX/gQHP4ivXvBnxS0TxgzQLusb0Y/
0edhlv8AdPevl1RzUxCSLiQZ9Pas5RtsS4RlufauarOQJz9BXh/w6+KsumSxaP4hnae3kIWC
6Y8x+zeo6c17ZJJuvMA5G0dKyrS93Ux9m4sur90UtNXoKdW8djFmdq5xZPxmuI+JHjhvC3hi
2tLAqdUu0CICf9Um3l8foPrXdaku62YDr2r5L8Q3M9x4p1e4u5nkm+1yR7mPIVWIA/ADFZwj
77Z2UopwTfQoM5G5nLNIxLMx6sTyTVZ3LH6UssvbrVfcDW3qW2TJhpY1wMFh1+taupX1lfJL
DHC9vKwA3AZUgfy6VjRsu7O3OPWpWcsc9Palyq9ybmpLFpQ0K0jjvne7VtzoYuAMnoc+mKiv
L23u5gkVqEUAKWLZyQPSs5SVAx16daTedxOMfjS5NQuWJAoXAAzVVnxkEinPI7ZqAox7GrSJ
5h/Gc5yKFbLjHSmeS2MHmnJCf7poVhNjyAHI7nmjcuab5R9KTYd3Si3QNSQsPWm7sdKcEGO2
acICemKNBakRf2pu7NSm3PrTTDzz/KmSRZpd59ad5LYzikEJ5+YUg1G7yO9IXJqT7O3Yik8g
g9c0waH44qMjB9fwqPzjjIPWmiRi3XmixJMqgDPc9qcOKi8z1/nS7wRRYCXNM6nPvSI2eKVp
McDnFCQCTMdhA70hOItoODTB+8cE9BT2O1j69qGNCrwR9KcWxn6VAC24kn8KUnnJoS1AUg7P
rUiOFUAdqYXO3ApA4Dbc80AWN3PPSmtBGSP3atx24pnmZ4xxQHK8jrQO7JVt4wflDDPoxp32
WAfwseO7GolmbvQ0pzgnjFTa5XMP+zQ5yEGanWNVHAAqr5x6Uvmkim0CkSyHHA61GY8Yyck0
m89cZNG9gc4osG5IkXOTU6qGPPNV/OfGAKkSUqPuZNTZ3KJfL4yOKFRSM5II9KYJ2x938c0x
3YnP6UWC5cW3eZGMbAbMEt2X/OK+gvD2u67Z6BaTz6cuq5RfmgfY+MehzmvCtG1c6Vp1xF9m
jlZn3hXXIJxXvfw+l8/RbOUrtEkQJUdua5az2uh3N+28bWj4S403U7aTHKyWzHn0yKsP4rjb
AtNL1G5Y9AsJUfma24VG0HGKlraHM0c7cE9jldWk1jUtEuF+XSnaM7Sj+ZIvHfgAfrXya2/e
5dzI29izMeWO4819lasu60lXsVP8q+OpmUTzLgfLI447/MaKbd2mdUGnT00K2Cxx39qUoQcC
nbgKQyFvlHFbXYrFhEWMAZ570oAk+YL8tR5RIxvbtSfaM4APyjoKVgsT7AqhjTRDubIyBR57
mM7IyfQgZFR7biQcRu30FBNiVxGi/N/KmYTblaVLO4lUZAXPYnmpRpMzELl9x6BYyaTaGoka
JtIJoeRFBHU/XpVweHb+Zf3cVwf96Opl8G6sw3FFQZwS/GP1pcyHyPcy42G0sW5qOWUuQoGB
W8PBd0GxLf2kYPcnNSDwlaRnM+sQsc9kOP50c8UHK2c/FtRMsw/GplkZz+7jZge46VvppOl2
4Hl3qk+qQ5/rQYLEfKJp2PoFC1POPk7mG0MxGMKD9c1We1umHUfTNdKqaYpANtcv/vS4/pUg
k09cBdKXju0xP9KPaNByI5A2lwP+WRP0poinX/lkfzruI9RjQnytPto/TgmnNq910TykHoIx
Qqj6oTgu5wyrcE/LDJ+VOAue0DGuwkv7yaDyWnG33Wq4CNGGDKHHVD1FPnFY4kdAKeu0c4Jq
wLYdz+lKLdSccCtTnK3ynkDFBGeAKt+Qoxk0vlIO/Sgdinhu1IVIOcVeITAzzik3x4/xouOx
T2uR3xRtbqc/lVozLjpUMkhY4HT0phYRbfcdxNO8o5wp/SnLMAgXjilM3cAY9aSeg7DPIOBz
Sm34+9Sl2I4Un8KRjJn7jD6CkgsBh2gnOcUJGHHWgK5ONrH8MU5YpCOBj0yaLhYcIFpfJXHX
9KljsrmYfu0dv91TVmPQ76U8Qy5PQeWaV0uo1EpeUg/i49xShYx0Na0fhPVX5MRX68VZTwXd
7Q8t3axjPOZB0pc6L5TC2xihAu7Oa3m8KwxkB9Vgx1+UE019A05Sub8uD1IjPH61PMh8hjho
14pGKk9a3BpOjoeZbiQ+0eP6mpEs9FD82E7+7S4/pSc+g1A50BScZ59Kt2cMUwbeDgd8V0UT
aVCcpo0f/bSUn+lQXtxHcOhitIrcAcrGc5oTbehM1ZFWTT0hXES8HOO+a9m+FV9BeaRFBG6i
eBNskX8Q56/SvIUcpgLngEAZrX0+KNpkI+RwRtcHBH41nVp8yM4yPpuIfIAfSn15HompeI5V
8u2vwyrGXJmYfKox3P1FbF1/wmElvvNzCICgbejhWOR6U4zsrMXsrvc6jxTqtpo2jS3d3JtU
AhVB+Z2xwAK+ZLy1jvrMo1vHE8knm7gPmGeSM/jXpOpaVNG4luZVkmdQS7ZY8+tVIPD+lT6e
801rPJMJtzuj7cJznj64ojOKd+5souMbI8ubSYETM14sfzY4jLf1ph0+0Rhi6lYeqwY/rXQ6
7bpbSX0MW5YoZv3YfqF7foa57fg8A1d2x81izbrZwlAVupB9Qo/rWnE+meYGOmvI/q8+P5Cs
eHdNKkYwCxxk9qtPNYafJi4uppJdhIjjTAB7ZNTZ7IamjXN9YWsbS/2TbKqjJLuWH8qzm8aR
D5rXT7YbeThdpA9s9awbl7q5hXzrpZEJ3bc42+2Kgg+0SmZIIjI8a7mA649RV8iS1E6j6HUw
+L57yQxRuUxzwoGan/tK7uA266lI9N1c3c3en3+k+bIjxX0arGI4o8JKAfvE9m9fWrljL51t
FLgqccgn0qHboUm2tTSLOWyztn6nH5UhQM2W5b1psTBjjvU+0kUmwIjHg4xjvQFx1qYDIx+l
J+lK4mR4yaTFS4zRt96NQItpHajA9MU8ijFMBmDnoKcBjj86cQelGMUMQzApro25XTBcdieC
PQ1JjNKOnvQwOd/s+XvIOnpTl08JzJMWz26V1C6siHMWn2yHtkZpW16+2lY/Li5/gUVfOyUk
cwNNifG1GYE/wg/rViHQZJARHazv/wABODW5JrWoyAA3LYHQDiq0t5dTriSdzg5zk5pOT7hZ
FFPCN/I4K2cyZ9TgVZXwVcAkyRwx44O+Smtvfhncj/eNN8sDnHvzRzPuFkTS+DrcLiS/tEI6
7HJxUa+HNMtRuOqxk/3vKJI/Wm7fb60mCKOZi0HGy09FwL6ST/dt8f1pPs2mqT8tw4+oUUmM
0Yz3o3YtiUNpqH/kGM3u0/X9KlF5apny9LhXjjc5aquCaTFG4i8NWkjI8q2t48dwmaQ6zqDA
jz0Uf7KYqljigD/IpO2w0yw+oXrgj7VIBjHBqIvK5+aaU/VjRjFKKBpibMkEkk4xyaUIvTaO
Pande1KDjHI9qEO4YJ4pcGlzk5JH50hI/vZ96GNABn1pRx3ppwOhzRnsaNx3Hd6ikzv4qQbj
74pgBdzjtVQ3M6j0FQnd1rb0xXct5aElVycCsIfLz7dq29PyVJQ/MvzY9e39aqSMUdrpCYmj
EkaH5AQGXcDntwa6KOKVIXCkE/dDOv3fauW0r98oVISWGHJViCB1P866CLaSzFnDScsC2SOe
ue9R0N6b1KWo/wBx2DsDkkevTrTdL8waRdIRujjfzCvU4Oef1qW/GY2k8wOgbYuOD+VQaTLF
9lnaaLzEwY9qtggjvWT+JGzehlw6Rp2qTXtxcFASVURMc9RnNV7n4d6TNjZjJ7IcYrP1+KSH
UomEskQmtlfgYyfWuWXXtWhYobkZUkfMua11exm7Jam7eeA5dPu0uLHzXCsABjeGrmNajntt
QluJ7Vowz7FJX5TtABwe/P61f/t29u2VZGwQc7gcVg6ndTT387XE8kgL8oTwDgVcF3JbT2I4
I5mhup4bJ5oliPmNs3BAehz2q74P1q68Pao1/arG7PA0LrIMhlYc/wBKzIN0UFxLDcPC7r5T
ID99T1qWyXbHnPTiiaTVmC01ItSZmv5rnyVQTNkInQEjpWxaxPDbRo5yQuCcVWDFWDbQxByB
V9T5ih+efWs57oum7ktspL54xirWMYxUVsuFJ468VYOfQVKZdhpXPPem8k8injg9eaVhQIbt
xzSsM9sg0UdKEFhu2gZpxBpMUgG4JA7im7X35yNvpjmpCOO9HUUwG49qKXFGOmB0o0EVNuBQ
AKfjv60hB96pECEkUH1pTxSEmkwEx+Box7UfT8qTJofYAoK59qX9M0fjRYBm2jFP/CkPWgkZ
2oFOxmmkhR8xxTuICOlGKuQabczxowZIg3QsCf0qwvhh7p13X/mZ6gLtAx171ViHNGQ0qJ96
QL6Duab57MCVjAA7sf6VsHwxOhUQ3CEMcBQmc/jmon8P3qIxCqcZJzkYApqKJ9oZWJJRh5fl
PYcUscGGZcbBgkNg4bj+dW3069jwRbk5HA9at6drWraHIGt98Lg4IK5OabuloHNcytm+SOPY
y72CqzDaK6u78H2Fsqfb9dtbZ1/ghQyFvxyMVSa//wCEr1m1j1fVFgwf9ZOnCj9KzL1oPtcg
hlEqoSvmA4Dc8ECps2y00kNurW0gnK2dxJLHjJL8EVVKso+WU59GHFPOSc9PoKTPOOaqyC7I
zNIhAOPrVhJC0YY9ajVEfCFgpJ6ntV0wRsIxE/yqNoOPv+9NEyb6kPU1r6dzFkk568DNZBVk
YBsf41rWB2BUC8EgZBxxRIlHXaayNJArljvTIcNtKnHT+ddNbv5o220DmZQQwBzu5647Vzlh
vRxFG4GCrbyOGroE5kdHyASckZ45rK76G0CpfuwzG5/eBiSSOfpVTSQFjvYEJfcd2B1znpU1
7+7GdufRt3Y+1RaPMYRdHYhYqRhxkc9/rUdTdvQ5bxGpF1aNsYfuyCSfRsVw853XcyIpO2Vs
gduTXfeJAZEs5MthgevIyaxV/diXfAkhdAqtuI289fetL2MnqjnoXZC2Y2H+0VNQ38SspnRT
5ufmA7jpW6Wn+zPAfLO4D5j04qo1pNnKlCR2UmtE7amWqZz6FlSSM26lnwA7pyvPY1ajjeNA
CMGr7RTcEoTn0OaiLBSQysMexpbj5naxAqlzg9KtQsIyFJGCcUwMvUUoww49KTV0EZWdzRtp
Np2HHPT61a6VlwMzIQww44+vvWlDJvTkDj3rC1jrTvqO+lGeMGlIBpMenIpgGPWgrTuo96Bw
etAhpGcCkKkc0/sDQfmGfzqgGYx2pMA079BRjFSFhCpx7UmD6VJjI96Tb700JlYrkf0pmDUv
SkOR24pmfQjZTTSMH+tSk+1RsxOeKBXGkHvnNIcjpRk5zikLfgKGkK4HNJ1oJ7jpQDzTsJsU
dOKT2pec9qTqKLCuB6deK0dNsQ6pdPna2QF9MVnNnGF6mujt0aOGPBHTtRbUibJQAIwR06Up
UHhgD7YpUJY4CsSM9OcUo+UbsnHce2a0IEUGOQSISCBgAdBUytJHaSZnYqzD5cn5iTTMZPU4
x1FChmYDadx6Yot1GWYNQeFyfKWQlcEn5eB61HFdQ+YDJb7fUbjtqGGYsFc53HOSTzT8jIyA
DmgLEwETxESQqzFix5yCKrvp+mSsq+QVQDcUIz/hTmjXYdvHXge9ODKZOuFC555pO4cqKMnh
/TJ1D5WPJAKZIx71C/hECTC3bgl9iL13elaso8yIHYrMpGCDyB/WnSFZLiORlEgDZNAzBPhO
9MBlEynD7B8mTn86YdMv7faI4/M65KEiuh+ZHjkLZlB+RgcZqfeVWRkAQSDds64Of0p37hZn
MRQSTAIYmXHXIxipreJrW5KMMqMEc9RXSS3RvMyzvnLZbIyQaLmeO6ldZLaONZEC/IOmDn09
qLhbUSzCJPHvfCuMc10x58uONDIvRSoPz1y0bLGVBchAehGRmun03xOumbxFCTcGP5pGyQq+
gX6/yqWXF2JLrR7uSF55wYl3E7GGD+Aqvo82m2NzJ9vlPkuMDaPfvVTUXuNZjczaj5KOS2UT
qfbmsyPw6/kQSi/VjIpJUj7vv15pOF92aOqh/iWGx+xpc2szuRdOFjI48s5wc+vSuSnkDdOv
pW/L4fnZGb7USgPyt5eM/SqjeG7wybFnRiRuBK4GPfniqaI51axicnlqkCgpk9B2q4/h7UEM
mQr7CAVXk89Kqy2F7Ep3RY7YFK1xXKEygSkLwMZAxwKgKSHOEPuRVx4rhRgwMSBk4FQEyNj5
HX8KaE2iAoTwRmlMJIClBg96kOG5Hbqp7U7c+w88dKoRXFv8w2rtJ4GO9Cm4hyd27HUNwfzq
ymduOQTweKaF68547Uml1KUmthI7wudrDa31qdbgg/MKpPCrnOSCORUiZB2Fw2OjVnKNjaFS
+jNFJwR0qXGeazcEHPerVvNu4PWoNbFntTc+vFP5HfimkUNAIRik5x1+tOxSjigBvSgZpaMU
riKpFIRgU4dM9aqahqkGnJl8vMekYP6/SqSu7Iye1ywVJHoB3NULnU7G1ba1wGYHG1Bk1y97
fz30rNI52k5Cg8Cq3St40vMg6GTxDCpIS2dsdy2B/Ko/+EjT/ny/8i//AFqw8g9cUnTqCBVe
zQaG+viGJiM27J9Hzj9KtQ6pBMcKeT2rlvxpybgwI69qJU10EdgLhTxUqsGGQc1hQ7xGpc5z
29KsxztFzmsWJGvBEDcDn7zDOa6RUUKEJwR0rB0yE3V3AoIGTmuqbS7iMPHnJRu3eiL1Ik0U
yMDnIIPOKfuIXb8pFLLbXEUhQwvuA3AgZHT1qM4XByy9+hrRkokBJA7j1zTkJEqFeobOMdar
pIOlPXAGcj6UMZJtYMfl6ZyBTwTjk8dqjBBBJ5GOhp+wDBAI4pDHnLc8BvUigEckDketICoO
SpBHfPWkABztH4E07ASFirAgDJ4BxRuySMdOuKaCdpAxz1zTGLFt3p2FShk+CrbiDtxx/wDr
pyKMBjywPQn9ahV2bOMoelPYSDjoOmSM07CBicbc/L7dqkLBht5LEY/CosgKQTkdMdKcr8cK
PrSa7jLKk4RW2gEZ981JEGFwZAuGJyfeqilSwMgIOeh7UoYoGP3uvFLTqBbRGXchYPli2QvQ
n+Ght0cuXQqQM7SOOfeqqT4xwAxHQ+tPQ4ZSd2So3DqM+tPyGTgu0QMcbcEqFB64pBl5UxIV
GBxnIz6GoCryv5kROc4I6g+vFTF1DAu23IxkL3+n50xFmK6uY5pDuPmMwZ2VuTjpT2vpGYu4
Vip3ZbrVMzIYBJnp0+X3p4clcbQTx34/KhO2wFhrr7QFllj+/wA4xyv0/KlU2U8hnlgO11xw
M8j/APVioFeRACshVxyrA9Kf55aMwyR/MW3+dnB+lJLTULIkFjpd0pS6hjUNzwucH0qB/DGl
yxFg+3DEFRxx65zTwQu0KOR196k3kBQACB7c0wsjO/4QqyZkVrgozEKoHOc/0qCTwNCH2R3U
jkZOAnT9a1wQyYYYOeB1/WnfMCrhyMHoP8aA5Tnn8EXHlFo7lWb+6YyP61hX/hzUbJt7RblA
ySBXosN5cQh9r7wex7D0qeC7Hnxm4DG1ZwJQGycd6Teg0rHkUL+YDkYYHBHpUoypyMcV6R4t
8H6dfzLdaTd75VTJIT9DzzXnDoY5HjddrKcEVm0uh1QlzIvRSCRRng08iqEblGyM/StBDuUH
FQuxYnSkFPII9aXb707isMxk0g5p1FLcZUBxXJ+ICZtVb5cFUUA+vFdSD2rntXtNmoieSTEU
vAJHQ+lbQ3OVvQwWVl5I4oJJGBWrYCE3bRywCdSCANxGD68VBcL9nuXXyvlB4HpW3NZk7lAt
jHalAJPGWJ7Cux0PUf7I1dPsMcd6LmFoD9pteUDAHIGTzx1rMsrphNdW/wA8bF9p8p/L4ycj
GPp6UudjszDWF3bAUg+9W7W2xOAQSevIxV61tQ6St9oEbRPgHPPBqXzWGqJcQneRn5jyKmUn
bQpaMijBDNGfvKxBbNXY7RSo3HdThHLLKZZSCzcnirKryMH8albGUnd6ElszwOux9oWtaK+n
VAC2cd6ylUhSOfTp0qwh+TIzinYg2I9Yuo1KK5C9wD1q5H4luCUDooRQFwPSsGKKWZgsSO2T
gYBxWrDobspM0yx7eqEHJp7DSuT/ANtQlEjkg480EueSB6Vr2GlWGupM1verBcKD5MbjHmns
MZ4rOjs7eLAC7vqMV1fhaKGK8SdrYSKhLMoHbHWsnOxpGnc40RsJTG6jzEbYwDZGaqFJTMze
c3sAela+qzBr+7eJPLikkchCPXv/ADrIz82RzVsqKVtRJRO4b98/51D5s6t8j8d8jNWMCk2k
96LsHG4xb6dD8+1j3xxmlGpuCD5IAx035/pTTFkcEVGYaaYnEtLqiK/3ZDn8hUsGoRS5G/Y/
YNxms8oT1H6VE8IYYxk9sdqLomxviZFJYqpHQinZOASwGe1c1d3kUILSsAW5wOSapreXTLmJ
BbsOjE5b8hR6j5WdkcY4c5z2pykRrwecetcVDcajCXYX8rM/3i1XE1jUkVV85Dt7smaE0PkZ
1IcbegLelPwVYZOCfyrnf+Ehu9oJghLAcsCRk01PEMu0q9mrc5DLJgj9KdxctjomKSDkkA/L
lTTwyrlS6jnJrBi8Qw8iaOVB24zzVpdcsHAInMbY6FcUhcrNMls/IxxkZHrUhYlWAkzyDtBI
IrKTWLLeoa5QbvfpVxZUlKhXDrjPXP8A+qn1FYuJM+8gjD5AweQaXzP3u3b7EjtVcbmgDBlT
HCjr3qQZBO5gRjPBx+tAE4YKgPJA7nmpQchTnj6dKqqxx1/XNSo/zYwfxo2ET9+uQe1KAcgV
DvOeV/EdqUSA9Tg+hpPyGiU7s9OacMq3IxUSsc/0p+7PBNOwXNbStTnsLuMo5CMw3KOAwz3r
k/iLZCHXBfIqRLcLl415wfXNa6yjoTnHaofFUIvNAjuVVl8lthOeg9hWcjeizz0jJq5ZtuVg
OxxVQDPfIq1ZBQznucc1k2dBa4NGKcRilA4oAjxRTyOfSkwQaBGZkn1owpDBgGU9Qe9JnPTm
l5FXqcjMu40u1jdriOV7dz3TnP4VkXUZUBnk8z/aIxW+6vNcuB91F6VC8YLFG4wc4NbRfcjY
q6XrKWV7byypfIsabQ9jd+RL0wPmKnj8KhZ1t3mmWN97y5Jmk3t68nAyffArRhit4JRIYomP
feM1ZmmFyzEIiDPREwKWiKT6syIIzckmSPAPJxwK0oo1jXaqgCpra0kmk2qpJP8As9a3LLwx
PIC87hFB5HIOKGw1ZhlcrwOewqe3sZ7nGyP5yOlddDothZbclrgqe64z+PWrjy/MFhURoOAB
6e9RzByNnOW3heVlSa4uhGo+8ijmtO202ztAoVGkIJ+Zj1q0V7k596QehpXvuUoIVnY9FVB0
wowKZnpz+FHGenenDnPNGqLSBRk1v6esUWnXcspHywttUnHOKxIkO8BuBuBrdhvmtvDGpTxv
Ed48vYyZOMdc5461OrY9kcTctv8ALCt8oXkD1NRbdvU0Ektk5BPJpQOKt7krYB+VLg59KUAs
cAVTuL+GEleWfsqcmjcLXLWT6U13CruYhQO5NUWuLiaMYUQE987j/SoltY9xd8yPn7z8kfSi
6Rapt7j5dSXftgiaf/a3bV/Oqs/2m5Y7ptiH+CJcfrVzYT1pfLFLnK9miglssa7UUKPYU8Re
nrV3yu/vTvK9RS5mHJYoiPB7mkMZNX/KGaaYx6UXE4spbOKaY8HtVwx80xkI7U76k2KZXH/6
qMGrBTmk2Y61VybEGDjpTNgVtwGG9QcGrJUZ6VGy8UIRWaW5icvHdyqTjHOa1Y/FF6qqZYIZ
sDn+EtWa67hjNQ9GxVJktHd6VeDULRbpVKYYq0Wd2Pxq8GwThDkdq5vwXJG2py2EgI89QysB
nbt68fQV3Wsadb6PblxN50TghZA2AeM8jr3px1M27Oxkq5MRIBB7huMUK7dHyGHYjjH1ptv4
gspIGMgVfl2BduS3FX49e0Rv3ctoBvh2RuDjYfX3/SnqK5VR/MjyEOD2qNp0U4Ix2zWgtzo8
rORdERtjKn5cYHXNcbr3jjQrNYbTStPF9dRSeY96ZCig5+7jHI9/emkwV2zow4bGC1X/ALOL
rRLy3LMRt3gAd68lu/G+tziRIpo7aNzu2RL0/E1ltr2ttndq93g9QJCKHC5pDR3OnKMOMHI6
1Yswd74rgxdXS5IuZc/7xq5aeIdRtcr5wkU9nXNZOi+h0+1XU73APfmm8VzMHipJD+/t2j/2
0YkflitiG9WWNXRgynoQayaa3LTT2L/WkIzUcdyG6ipxhhkUkMyMdO1LjOcUYOKXpV2OMht+
bl+owT79K3LIJMQWh8wn5cdMe9Ydspy7sfmLkAe1bunEmRYldUbGfmH3qtIye50unaVpE08d
tc2DlUPzsG27gOwrpV03w6hdrTRli2/KqyMWB965zTbprt2hm+VYzs8vHP1rZRik7KsciYXa
Sx7dOlEtiqaV9SlckJJIqIqKWzhRjFZ7ZLHJPNXLoFZSccc8VRyof5s474rNI6BrDJI6DGc0
xiOnWlY49+vPtUefl9TTsIUZIJ4AH60gANM3EH2o3HFFgJCSGwRyewpCcZUnnpTBk9abIQi7
nIVfUnFFgJod8s2Acd8npipdX1NbfQ4tKEa75JjO755CjAA+nWsY+I7a1aSG3ia5kYdV4A/G
sqaW5unMrusWey/McfWn5spRbLckyRqXkbaOtVjqLSkfZ4WKDgu5wPwGOahit1j5GS56sxya
lCn8KXMUqfcheJ5z/pEhcf3R8oqZUAXAAAHYCpFTIzTguKnmuaKKWxGq4pwTFShfepAnalcb
INuO9OCcVME9RS4I6GgCILTttK2Rx0zRnPehCY0rgU3GalAJ5/WmcmgREy0wrU5BphHWn0FY
rMh/CmMuKsGmHGeelNEyRXIx0pMZHWnt06UzNWjF6MieOqsiYOfzq+fmXHeoHTjBPOKYPYu+
Fr06b4q069Cq3lyH5W6HKnj6V0PjK8mvb0kpFuaQNtjXaOQP8a4qORraeOUHDRurZxnHIro/
EsjvqW5yDviV+OhyM1cNHoYy3MyCbLc1oB1kwNvtWKThg3cGtC1l+dSR3HFF+5PLqc34plWb
UYgjM6CMKcdA3Of6Vi4OMDpVvcJJrgbsRNMWz9TStGsEgDYYH7pHeqTN7W0KRUgc0ACrMxJ6
rjFVyDmncQ0gDrTP8in9BTSc9qadgYA81oaZqUlk0qrGsiyYO0nHSs9YHc5yfqa1p9GutMtr
Sa5VB9sTzISG3fKPUfjUTs1YqLd9Do1bcARnBGeanim2E7j1qFGWSGJlwVKDBFOAzXJ0OtIb
QentS4OaCAoOfQ1ocNyCFvmJC5xW7Zuu5eMHBYDHSsK35cZzjrnpW5p87ocoxGBtPritOhm9
zpLB5Y5g6urInAUnIz6YrbLw53EojH+AZyD3/CucsgZA6vKJVwGCldpzW4rOkaFiWXjAbt7U
MuG5FeZLMcDgYrGkYliCenvWndNlWPQCslzgnms0bMCecnp0oL88daqy3SQgliOOuTVA6wWk
xDbs6/3mO0f41VmJamucnpzVW61G3sx+9cF+yKMk1kXMlzeDZNcERf8APOP5R+femxxJGm1F
Cj0pOyLULlw61dSK3kW6wK3AeTJb8qz3tzPL511I00ueC3QfQVYAp4Q9qlyZoopEYU+tKEqc
R04R4HSkVdEKoaeI/m4qdU9KcFxSC5CsftThHipcUYpBcYFC804DBpcUoFNBcbSE8inEU3af
/wBdFtQuNOQfWg8GkZfpQoOM0bBcXHHvSEGnYOKMZ70AR4P4Um0mpQMGgjjpyOlFxNlYr+dQ
svWrbAnrUTLzVIllNlOe1Rnj61adKiZBVGbIhxTHGak24NG3Io6kFGePKt9O1aF3Mtxb2c+F
LmAK3sRkf0qF4wRxTSSbaJDgiPIzj1JP9a0jYiREc5qeB9jAetQU9cjnFUyXqilqUT21tKqR
7rdzv3AcxnuD7e9Q2EVzPoM0Kg/ZhN5nC8btuM5rbV8rnjOOnqKpz2Ef2kXNuWt5RySh4Pvi
k1oEZdzGspIJZ0trp/KjO796se4jA6YyP51o2v8AZena4Z2s49VsbbJMd0PKEny9wM4/+tVO
Wz+z3IZ38wN82QMcmuq8MR2WrJPo+oX1hp0EysTdXFuZHBx0B3DHSpd7mjcbamF4e0rS7qB7
+5uLKBYZfLFrOWdnOM5AHbt9apXt/HqDPcDT7e3jTpFB8ox71Pp+mwiVY578RI7YkfyWOwD2
zz1q48EGmW62mmal9uWbmTdZmMKewyTR1LsuUz9ROntDb29jaTwMN4nkluPM808beMADHP50
T2vmXENtbkO8a4YqDhQe5q2NJMrhrlvl/up6/WtOOKKJQkcYRfas37uiLgubYaqrGiogwqgC
pYY2kcAcYPUVajss8sRiraRhBgVlY2uj/9k=
--------------2AD64141C197E78BEDCB57--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 06:34:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16664;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:29:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:29:26 -0800
Date:      Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:59:34 GMT
From: "Peter Glueck" <peter itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Message-ID: <348ea04f.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Subject:   Martin's suggestions welcome
Resent-Message-ID: <"38uy82.0.F44.4TgZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13635
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vortexers,
Martin Sevior and Scott Little have suggested to measure the 
radioactivity of Thorium using the complete Cincy Cell with the 
solutions inside before and after the measurement.
I promise to do everything I can in order to prove me wrong.
It seems a reasonable and logical idea and I will discuss it with
the Nuclear Lab people. Unfortunately, I am not their boss and my
measurements have not the highest priority for them.
Our instruments are obsolete and I am planning to take the Cell
to Bucharest or even to some Western country where we can make
real high tech nuclear measurements. Can somebody help in case
I get some EC funding?
Best wishes,
Peter
-- 
dr. Peter Gluck

Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology         Fax:064-420042
Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700           Tel:064-184037/144
Cluj 5, 3400 Romania                                  Home: 064-174976
E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 06:34:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16742;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:29:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:29:53 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110722b0b45707ed0e [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:29:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Fusor Reactor
Resent-Message-ID: <"7QWyh3.0.T54.UTgZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13636
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[I just posted this to freenrg-l, but it should be of interest to this
list as well.  I posted a mini-review of "Lost Science" by Gerry Vassilatos
and someone asked for details about chapter 9.]

>> 9. The Fusor Reactor: Philo Farnsworth
>
>I never heard of this. A few details, please...

[page 319] "The true father of electronic television, Dr. Philo T. Farnsworth,
found the practical key toward achieving hot fusion."

[page 321] "While testing his high power UHF multipactor tubes in 1935,
Farnsworth discovered a strange phenomenon... Suspended in the tube center,
he sighted a tiny brilliant blue starlike point... By as early as 1953
he had conceived of a means for using the starlike phenomenon to produce
controlled hot fusion reactions."

[page 322] "The Fusor is no larger than a softball.  In its center is the
electron-radiating cathode...surrounded by a spherical anode...deuterium
guns are symmetrically mounted about the anode ball...beam axes face each
other and intersect at the tube center, firing ionized fuel into the
reactive focus... Deuterium nuclei are literally hammered into the
required density...by the process of inertial containment...produces
an electronic pressure blast against the applied energy field... may
be directly harnessed and used in external loads."

[page 324] "Controlled self-sustaining nuclear fusion of tritium
nuclei was historically achieved in 1965."

[page 326] "ITT now holds the Farnsworth patents, and bears the
social debt of responsibility for suppressing Fusor technology."

[page 327] "patents 3,258,402 and 3,386,883 ... are textbook lessons
in the fusion art.  The design of the device which attained sustained
fusion is elegantly simple and can be examined."

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 06:40:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13546;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:35:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 06:35:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:33:41 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971210093340_-588675095 mrin51.mx>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Debate about Arata & Zhang Results
Resent-Message-ID: <"I5lM42.0.aJ3.KYgZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13637
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to Mike Carrell for his detailed response to the many calorimetric
questions that Rich Murray keeps bringing up, and thanks also to Jed
Rothwell.  Calorimetry is one of my weak points, and I've found the debate
educational.  

The longer the debate goes on, the stronger the excess heat results of Arata
& Zhang look.  The 56-page 1997 article by Arata & Zhang is one of the major
works in the field.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 07:08:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24900;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:04:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:04:23 -0800
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <e20863cb.348eadbb aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:56:57 EST
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Bifilar coil question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"ICGbZ2.0.s46.rzgZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13638
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To all,
   I need to get some opinions on the behavior of a bifilar coil.
If the two wires having currents going in opposite directions are labled wire
A and wire B, in the coil, then what do you think would happen if.
1. The coil is in a steady state, with current following.
2. Wire A is made an open circuit, and the magnetic field around it falls at a
maximun rate as in a automobile spark coil.
3. Wire B has no opposing magnetic field now, and takes on a new configuration
with respect to the way it's magnetic field is distributed around the coil.
4. Here is the big question, as this field moves into it's new configuration,
is a CEMF or EMF induced into the coil (wire B) , or does the current flow in
wire B stay at a steady state as it's magnetic field redistributes its self ?
This is very important, I would like to get opinions on this.
Thanks, 
Butch LaFonte
          

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 07:26:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20630;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:22:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:22:47 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971210091909.0078ed70 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:19:09 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
In-Reply-To: <348ea04f.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"tokdq2.0.F25.3FhZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13639
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 15:59 12/10/97 GMT, Peter Glueck wrote:

>Our instruments are obsolete....

Hey!  A lot of good science can be conducted with obsolete instruments.

Peter, your NaI detector is likely to be all that is required.  It is not
likely that the age of the detector or its supporting electronics will be a
disabling factor for the necessary measurements.  Some questions:

What are the dimensions of the NaI crystal?

Is the crystal in good condition (i.e. does it have the usual resolution)?

Do you have a multi-channel analyzer MCA in the electronics?  how many
channels?  Can you make a permanent record of the spectral data?
(printout?, disk storage?, photograph?).

If no MCA, do you have one or more single-channel analyzers in the
electronics?  You could set up one or more SCA's to look at selected
regions of the gamma spectrum to collect the necessary data.

Peter, I am confident that your considerable skills as a diplomat will
suffice to convince your nuclear dept. of the importance of these
meausurements.




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 07:42:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21994;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:37:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971210093637.009f1b78 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:36:37 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Bifilar coil question
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <e20863cb.348eadbb aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"K1Io7.0.aN5.eShZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13640
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:56 12/10/97 EST, HLafonte wrote:

>4. Here is the big question, as this field moves into it's new configuration,
>is a CEMF or EMF induced into the coil (wire B) , or does the current flow in
>wire B stay at a steady state as it's magnetic field redistributes its self ?

My two bits:

An emf will be induced in both windings in response to the changing
magnetic field thru the coil.  In both cases the induced emf will be in a
direction that would create a current that would oppose the change in
magnetic field thru the coil.

The induced emf in winding A will try to make the current continue to flow
in the original direction in winding A and will result in an arc at the
opening switch.  

The induced emf in winding B will oppose the existing current in winding B
and will cause the attached power supply to deliver additional power to the
coil for a while (~L/R).  This energy will go into creating a magnetic
field thru and around the coil where there was none before the switch was
opened.  I suppose that the power supply will also have to provide the
energy dissipated in the switch-opening arc as well...there's no other
place for it to come from.





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 08:25:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27551;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:16:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:16:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <d6eea56a.348ebf03 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:10:41 EST
To: gwatson microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  DMEC Research
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"DtZ233.0.Mk6.i1iZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13641
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greg,

It would seem that none of this (considerations re the new DMEC sponsors)
precludes your meeting previous commitments.  If this logic were true, one
could arbitrarily set up companies with shareholders and then walk away when a
new shareholder came along with a better deal.  If the peiole you are dealing
with are legitimate, they will know this.  If they want you to renege on
previous commitments anyway, then they are the type of people you do not want
to do business with, since surfacing that level of ignorance of business
practice (let alone the law) at this level of negotiation bodes ill for the
future when a lot more will be at stake.  If they are willing to bend the law
now, you know that if you're successful it's going to get a lot worse. 

Please take some time to think about it.  Again, if you feel you need to do
this for financial/development reasons, let us see a working kit and I can
guarantee you that we can instantaneously (as in a day) beat their offer by at
least a factor of 10, both financially and with regard to working agreements.
There is no scarcity, so don't get railroaded or starry-eyed about false
prosperity at this point.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 09:00:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11986;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:54:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:54:11 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:53:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712101653.IAA19410 denmark.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OXYHYDROGEN [fwd]
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y95ol.0.5x2.naiZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13642
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For those interested in hydrolysis or Brown's Gas, here is William Rhodes'
original contribution to this field.  Dr. Rhodes is still active in this
field and those interested in more info should contact him directly as he in
not on this list. 

William A. Rhodes     Email: war123 aztec.asu.edu

Regards,     Michael Randall

At 01:02 PM 12/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>
>-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
>              FOR GENERAL RELEASE TO THE INTERNET
>-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
>  PROOF OF DISCOVERY PRECEDENCE ESTABLISHED FOR GENERATION AND 
>     SINGLE DUCTED USE OF MIXED ATOMIC HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN. 
>-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
>
>Was  the  second man on the moon entitled to the  distinction  of 
>being the first?
>
>    The information below relates to my  U.S.   Patent  3,262,872  
>issued  26  July  1966,   titled, "Apparatus For The Electrolytic 
>Production  Of  Hydrogen And Oxygen And For The Safe  Consumption 
>Thereof."   Of  the  10  claims  allowed,   9    read   variously  
>beginning  in  claim  2  through  claim  10;  "...outlet in  said 
>cover  for hydrogen and oxygen produced in said generator,"   to,  
>"and  an  outlet  for said generator to conduct   a  mixture   of  
>hydrogen  and  oxygen from said  electrodes  and   said  casing."   
>The   nine claim references cited by the  examiner  are  relevant  
>to   the  fact  that this was the  first  issued  patent using  a 
>common delivery duct for both gases.    The  "et  al"  designates 
>the  financier  of the project who included the outboard  alcohol  
>booster  tank,  Figs.  11,  12,  qualifying him  as  co-inventor. 
>
>    Prior  patents relating to generation of hydrogen and  oxygen 
>from  water  are  separately  collected and ducted  out  of   the  
>generator  for delivery of H2 and O2. 
>
>    Perhaps  the only reason such mixed gases were not discovered 
>and  used before was fear of explosion.   Exhaustive tests at  my 
>laboratory  revealed they were harmless compared with tank gases.  
>NIST  and the literature contained no references on  such  atomic 
>mixtures.   My  instrumentation  using the NIST WWV clock  signal 
>proved  flame propagation (velocity) rate is 8160 ft/sec  -- mach 
>7.5,  as  compared to tank H2 and O2 being 680 ft/sec.   Make  no 
>mistake about it,  mach 7.5 is not an attribute of burning H2 and 
>O2.    Other   stoichiometrically  mixed  gases  revealing  flame 
>propagation  rates  were  Butane 60  ft/sec,  and  acetylene  330 
>ft/sec.   (Details  of  the  setup  for  running  such  tests  is 
>available upon request.) 
>
>    At this writing,  maximum flame temperature is unknown.  NIST 
>again  said  they  had  no  data,   and  research  into  that  is 
>proceeding.   Already  known  is that tungsten  melts  instantly.  
>This confirms the temperature is significantly higher than  3,410 
>C/6,170 F.   Mixed atomic gas volume vs stoichiometric tank gases 
>will be determined.
>
>    One  day,  an article from the Internet was discovered  by  a 
>friend  and  forwarded  to me.   It mentioned  my  second  patent 
>3,310,483  of  21  March  1967  titled,   "MULTICELL  OXYHYDROGEN 
>GENERATOR",  another single ducted mixed gas generator.  The text 
>included  the  name  of a Dr.  Yull  Brown  of  Australia,  whose 
>U.S.Patent copy was obtained from the U.S. Patent Office.  
>
>    His patent #4,014,777 was issued 29 March 1977,  eleven years 
>after  my first patent 3,262,872 of 26 July 1966.   My patent  is 
>one of the references cited in his patent.   He publicly has been 
>claiming  discovery  of  a new gas called "BG" for  Brown's  Gas.  
>Inspection of his patent revealed single ducted atomic gases, the 
>same as mine.  I went ballistic.  In the early days, I lost a lot 
>through  ignorance.   But this?   After  regaining  composure,  I 
>reasoned there must be a logical answer. 
>
>    Since  I generally ignored patent references cited against my 
>many patent applications,  reserving them for my patent  attorney 
>to  study;  on  a few occasions I was guilty of  such  negligence 
>which induces me to forgive Dr.  Brown.   He might have committed 
>the same oversight in claiming to be the discoverer of a new gas.  
>
>    Regardless of claims to the contrary,  my patent 3,262,872 of 
>1966  stands  as  the  original  discovery,   unless  an  earlier 
>reference is found.  
>
>William A. Rhodes     Email: war123 aztec.asu.edu
>
>-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 09:51:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11661;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:41:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:41:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <348ED225.B3E2EC1B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:32:21 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bifilar coil question
References: <e20863cb.348eadbb aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"z8ZU4.0.7s2.YHjZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13643
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A note:

 Bifilar coils  have large interwinding capacitances between two coils (A and B) For example my 50mm diameter 170mm length coil wounded with 0.45mm wire have 5nF intercoil capacitance. This is enough to create couplings in the same order of magnetic coupl
ings on high frequencies or transients with large voltages. When magnetic and capacitive couplings occurs in the same time, strange, unpredictable result could be obtained.

Moral: Try and see. Theoretic analysis may little help to predict what will be happen on bifilar, specially on long coils.

Even, some results may not be reproducible (even) using the same material. Tiny marginal balances may occurs once inside a coil, leading very strange results very hard to understand.
 
Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 10:12:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27494;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:01:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:01:15 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:03:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b0b334b27a22 [198.133.146.230]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"X9wFl.0.Mj6.gZjZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13644
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


    Michael Schaffer wrote:

    > Jim   Ostrowski   and   I   have   dialoged   on  his  recently  posted
    > faster-than-light  signalling  experiment.  BTW,  I  commend  Jim   for
    > posting so much information, which greatly facilitates discussion.

    Well  thank  you  Michael  .  I really appreciate the server-list "peer
    review" made possible by this forum , so that's why I try to  "publish"
    my  activities  is such detail that everyone will be able to understand
    what is being attempted , and according to what logical assumptions.


    > I think I understand Jim's experiment more now than I did when I posted
    > yesterday. My comments follow:


    For the sake of brevity I'm going to snip Michael's  excellent  analyis
    of my circuit. I will agree for time being that what I've schematically
    depicted  as  a  capacitor  is  really  the transformer circuit he drew
    (below) :

                     M = 100 uH
                        1:1            L1 = 6 uH
      o-------o-------        -----------UUUUU--------o
              \       )      (                        |
              /       )  ||  (                       (~)
          R1  \       ) -||- (  C1 = 4 nF             |
              /       )  ||  (  (distributed)        gnd
              \       )      (
              |
              |       open ends
             gnd

     In reality then the 6uh inductor L1 is more  or  less  superfluous.  I
    really  didn't think about the coax self inductance , but it looks like
    I just lucked out in creating a transformer that would transmit  all  of
    the  frequency  components of the signal. That makes the system have an
    even better input to output analog than a purely resonant one might  be
    capable  of  doing  ...In  my  book  , that's GOOD ! I'll take whatever
    accidental benefits I can get ..thanks , Michael.

    > Note: In reality there is  also  some  distributed  capacitance  from
       outer conductor to ground.

    OK.  But there still does not appear to me to be any way for the fairly
    strong ( >8vac peak ) signal to short-path  by  some  other  means  and
    show  up  as  a  nearly  identical level signal into the output channel
    scope probe monitor . (remember the 200  mv  /  div  signal  is  really
    2v/div due to the x 10 reducing probe used on that channel).


  >  1.  While that 75 m single loop of coax is indeed an antenna, it is not
  >  an efficient one at the frequencies in use, and antenna behavior  turns
  >  out mot to be a major effect here, contrary to what I posted yesterday.
  >  (BTW,  Jim,  where  do  you  do  this  experiment? That's a big loop to
  >  support away from ground.)

     The  loop  is  readily  supported  above  ground  along the flat , non
    conductive tarred roof of the building where I rent  my  lab/workspace.
    The  perimeter  of this roof area is considerably longer than 75 meters
    (about 240 feet).

    >  (The coax line) is mainly acting as a distributed 1:1 transformer.

     Yes , I can see that this must be correct.


    > This provides at least  a  first  order  explanation  of  why  the  two
    > voltages  measured  by  the  oscilloscopes are almost identical for all
    > frequency components of the experiment (.667, 1.333, 2.000 MHz).

      Right.

   > 2. I maintain that you cannot measure  group  velocity  in  a  resonant
   > circuit  with  a  periodic signal.  First, as Jim showed with his math,
   > the phase shift of an ideal circuit resonator (and this generalizes  to
   > resonant transmission lines and cavities, too) is zero. In other words,
   > the  phase velocity in a resonator is infinity. The physical reason for
   > this is that the resonator stores capacitive and inductive energy  from
   > one quarter cycle to the next, so one cannot know how long it has taken
   > the  energy to arrive. The energy has _already_ been in the system ever
   > since steady state was established, millions of cycles ago.

    This is where I still have a problem. What difference does this make as
    to  the  question  of  whether or not there is a delay time between the
    modulation   and  modulation  detection  of  this  already  circulating
    energy?

     In  fact  ,  this  continuosly  circulating process you mention is the
    mechanism  of  signal  transfer  which  is  the   innovation   over   a
    transmission   line   connected  in  the  "normal"  way,  which  signal
    velocity/delay characteristics are more dependent on the laws of  _HEAT
    TRANSFER_   than   anything   else,   including   alleged  light  speed
    limitations.(I have a reference for this if you don't believe that.)

    Is it "cheating" somehow if I use a pre-established circulating  energy
    pattern , alter (modulate) it , and look at the time coincidence of the
    modulation  signal  transmission  /  reception , then derive the SIGNAL
    VELOCITY by means of measuring the SIGNAL PATH LENGTH?


   > This is why I say that one must use an isolated pulse to measure signal
   > propagation.

     I  don't  think you can bitmask an isolated pulse.  You cannot call an
    isolated pulse  a  meaningful  transfer  of  information  if  it  isn't
    bitmasked  (precoded  somehow  as  to  it's  relation  to other pulses)

    Meaningful transfer of information requires  pre-coding/bitmasking  and
    is the criteria for FTL signalling that has always been demanded .


   > 3. The dispersion argument might be a good one, and yesterday I did not
   > have  a  good  explanation for it. However, I now claim (point 1 above)
   > that  the  nearly  frequency-independent  response  apparent   in   the
   > oscillograms  comes  from the 1:1 wideband transformer that is the coax
   > line.

    Fine. The means of signal transfer you postulate for  my  apparatus  is
    not what is in question, however. As I see it there are two issues:

    1. Signal path length
    2. Signal velocity along that path length.

    Regards ,

    Jim Ostrowski



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 10:16:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29467;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:06:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:06:46 -0800
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:06:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The price of gold.
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210100333.3275A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zn5LV1.0.DC7.pejZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13645
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Has anyone else wondered if the recent dramtic drop in the price of gold has
anything to do with Joe Champian's activities? :-)

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:05:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15045;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:55:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:55:06 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712101854.MAA01730 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: The price of gold.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210100333.3275A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca> from Martin Sevior at "Dec 10, 97 10:06:28 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:54:58 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"WT45Z2.0.zg3.8MkZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13646
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Has anyone else wondered if the recent dramtic drop in the price of gold has
> anything to do with Joe Champian's activities? :-)
> 
> Martin Sevior

No, but there is really an underlying technological reason.

Gold holders and buyers are anticipating world-wide deflation.  The natural
tendency of technological advancement is to produce more for less --
technology is a deflationary force.  Human productivity (due to
ongoing technological advance as well as ongoing captial formation)
is continuing to increase worldwide.  Coupled with fiscal restraint
of more and more governments (less printing of fiat currency, aka
inflation) we are likely to move into a period of net deflation.

Deflation is not a bad thing, but adjustments from an inflationary
period have to be made. 

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:07:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17248;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:04:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:04:56 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712101904.NAA01977 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971210091909.0078ed70 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Dec 10, 97 09:19:09 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:04:49 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2k47J2.0.KD4.MVkZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13648
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
> Peter, I am confident that your considerable skills as a diplomat will
> suffice to convince your nuclear dept. of the importance of these
> meausurements.

Hey Scott, maybe you could start by convincing me of the importance
of those measurements. :-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:15:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25295;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:03:46 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:03:46 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712101902.NAA01907 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
In-Reply-To: <d6eea56a.348ebf03 aol.com> from Puthoff at "Dec 10, 97 11:10:41 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:02:33 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hh5Kq.0.8B6.CUkZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13647
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Please take some time to think about it.  Again, if you feel you need to do
> this for financial/development reasons, let us see a working kit and I can
> guarantee you that we can instantaneously (as in a day) beat their offer by at
> least a factor of 10, both financially and with regard to working agreements.
> There is no scarcity, so don't get railroaded or starry-eyed about false
> prosperity at this point.
> Best regards,
> Hal Puthoff

This is such a compelling and reasonable argument, that if Watson doesn't
jump at it, it simply serves to confirm the suspicion that there is something
else afoot than what is being presented.

I offer a few speculations (for which I may have to ulitmately apologize):

1.) Watson can't get the SMOT's to work, is making up a reason to back out.
2.)  ...  well that about covers it. :-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:22:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27696;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:18:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:18:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0b4932dd9cc [12.64.66.103]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971209144921.24045H-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
References: <348DC78E.3A104BB9 microtronics.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:18:25 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: SMOT is dead! Long live SMOT!
Resent-Message-ID: <"pc-ro.0.fm6.KikZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13649
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote:

   >  I was wondering how you would try to get out of the
   >  hole you've been digging yourself.

You're weren't the only one.

I no longer give the posts by Greg Watson any credence. I think he got
fooled by the SMOT; there never was a legitimate, scientifically meaningful
rollaway - just noise and error emerging in a basically fascinating toy
gizmo. It is my opinion that the latest claims regarding the financial and
legal considerations are just a smokescreen for Greg to disappear behind
and try to save some face. The recent string of delays and excuses,
culminating in this latest news, has had a certain characteristic to it.
The end seemed near at hand, and these recent fumblings (polishing
problems, weird sampling and testing) were beginning to look desperate.

I've come to this opinion after watching and participating in the SMOT saga
since last April. I would hardly call it jumping to conclusions. Even
still, I entertain some tiny bit of hope that I'm wrong.

The SMOT is dead. But is there any doubt that it will continue to live
forever among all the other "unresolved" or "suppressed" free energy
legends?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:49:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00389;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:31:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:31:30 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:30:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
In-Reply-To: <199712101904.NAA01977 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210110555.6540A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"oxuKG2.0.z5.GukZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13650
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, John Logajan wrote:

>
> Hey Scott, maybe you could start by convincing me of the importance
> of those measurements. :-)
>

Well since I advanced them to begin with :-).

We start with the premise that a system that shows reproducible nuclear
reactions driven by a low volatage AC power source would be a Scientific
breakthrough of first magnitude. For those mercantilists amongst us this
would also bring great profits. For the greens amongst us, this would
dramatically reduce the risks associated with nuclear power. For the
Libertarians, potentially less Government interference in the licensing of
Nuclear Power plants. (Is that what you want John?)

Anyway, here's this Cincy-Cell that apparently does this. There are now a
number of reports of before and after reduction in the level of Thorium in a
solution. After the solution has been removed from the cell.

Peter's experiments confirm this. However there is a concern that the
Thorium is being left behind in the cell. Also the activity in the solution
may just reflect the absence of radon, which may be driven out of
the solution after running the AC.

Peter's colleagues measured the activity of the solution with a gamma-ray
detector. The nice thing about gamma rays is that with a good detector, you
can measure their energies very precisely. These energies tell you precisely
which element decayed so you can directly measure the Thorium content. The
other nice thing is that they're very penetrating. One much more obvious
solution to the Cincy-Cell puzzle is that the Thorium is being plated onto
the interior of the cell somehow. If this were the situation, then you could
detect it's presence by measuring the gamma activity of the cell. If the
Thorium is being moved around within the cell, then it could be detected
by monitoring at a number of positions around the cell. I think 4
measurements 90 degrees apart would be sufficient.

In any case if after 4 seperate runs, the cell shows no sign of increased
activity after running the AC power and the level of activity within the
cell with the solution in place shows the reported 80% reduction in activity
and if the energies of measured gamma rays before running the AC power are
those of Thorium, and are much reduced after the run, then I think we should
get a bit more excited about Cincy-Cells and Low Energy Nuclear Reactions

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:51:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02709;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:47:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:47:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b4a14daa5e [199.237.131.243]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:49:20 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: SMOT the undead
Resent-Message-ID: <"Jv_C93.0.Ag.i7lZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13652
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[snip]
>The SMOT is dead. But is there any doubt that it will continue to live
>forever among all the other "unresolved" or "suppressed" free energy
>legends?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI


SMOT joins the ranks of the undead?

If I recall correctly the original purpose of selling the SMOT kits was so
people could be experimenting with the same set of parts, a very useful
service it seemed at the time.   There was no promise for a working ou
device, was there?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:53:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25118;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:43:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:43:25 -0800
Message-ID: <348EF0E4.1003 interlaced.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:43:32 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"YWfA8.0.O86.R3lZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13651
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> 
 I  don't  think you can bitmask an isolated pulse.  You cannot call an
>     isolated pulse  a  meaningful  transfer  of  information  if  it  isn't
>     bitmasked  (precoded  somehow  as  to  it's  relation  to other pulses)
> 
>     Meaningful transfer of information requires  pre-coding/bitmasking  and
>     is the criteria for FTL signalling that has always been demanded .
> 

So, Jim, - Do you have the equipment to pulse-modulate the carrier with
a random information stream?  How about a pulse generator that would
send two information bits, either two pulses, or a single pulse
determined by a random two-state switch?  One scope channel senses the
outgoing and the other channel the incoming pulse.

Or, does this process exclude your concept?  If so, how can you transmit
some kind of info with the present setup?

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 11:55:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26954;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:50:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:50:00 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712101949.NAA02766 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210110555.6540A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca> from Martin Sevior at "Dec 10, 97 11:30:34 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:49:51 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FwVF-.0.0b6.b9lZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13653
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote:
> > Hey Scott, maybe you could start by convincing me of the importance
> > of those measurements. :-)
> 
> Well since I advanced them to begin with :-).
> 
> We start with the premise that a system that shows reproducible nuclear
> reactions driven by a low volatage AC power source would be a Scientific
> breakthrough of first magnitude.

This would be a retroactive demonstration of importance, though. :-)

But seriously, I don't mind at all if dedicated researchers check out
these long shots, and heaven's knows I respect Peter as a man and as
a scientist. However, I'd like to see Peter reconfirm his findings
several times (which he is obviously working to accomplish) before
he sells anyone, including is colleagues, on the "importance" of
the effort.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 12:01:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03772;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:54:26 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:54:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b4a3612762 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:55:55 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
Resent-Message-ID: <"N6jEj2.0.nw.lDlZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13654
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For a quick look, why not just scrape some of the white deposit off a
measured area of the cell and count it?  Then multiply by the estimated
ratio of area of rest of the cell to the area scraped. Would have to do the
same for the central electrode as the current density is different there.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 12:01:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04301;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:57:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:57:11 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0b4a48c6d92 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:58:28 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
Resent-Message-ID: <"f3idT.0.531.HGlZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13655
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Is it possible to send the used cell to someone to examine it?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 12:40:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10029;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:27:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
In-Reply-To: <199712101949.NAA02766 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210122454.6540C-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"NBP8L.0.aS2.rjlZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13656
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, John Logajan wrote:
>
> But seriously, I don't mind at all if dedicated researchers check out
> these long shots, and heaven's knows I respect Peter as a man and as
> a scientist. However, I'd like to see Peter reconfirm his findings
> several times (which he is obviously working to accomplish) before
> he sells anyone, including is colleagues, on the "importance" of
> the effort.
>

As Peter has pointed out, to do the measurements he has to convince his
colleagues to donate their time. Presumabally this is best done by
convincing them of the importance of their work.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 13:08:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14653;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:25 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:50:54 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Smot kits
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712101554_MC2-2B84-1ABD compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"yazyd3.0.pa3.cAmZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13657
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Greg Watson wrote:

     The status of the SMOT kits will be decided in the next two weeks.
        A) Ship & accept NO new orders.
        B) Cancel the orders & refund the money.

As a paying customer I request that you make up your mind immediately and take
action. You are extremely late. I recommend option B, cancel and refund.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 13:09:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14675;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:59:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:50:32 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: The price of gold.
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712101554_MC2-2B84-1ABA compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ffrdU.0.3b3.eAmZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13658
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Martin Sevior writes:

     Has anyone else wondered if the recent dramatic drop in the price of
     gold has anything to do with Joe Campion's activities? :-)

I doubt it. The New York Times reports that central banks are driving down the
price by selling their inventories. I think it has something to do with the
Asian economic crisis. I know nothing about banks or economics, and I have
never understood why banks and nations keep gold in the first place. Why gold?
Why not tin, copper, marzipan or chocolate? I can't stand marzipan but I'd
take a ton of chocolate over a ton of gold any day. The high value of gold
seems to be psychological to me, but in any case, the cost of producing the
stuff has fallen dramatically in recent years. There is now more gold being
mined than ever before. If they find a way to extract it from ocean water
we'll have enough to pave the streets with the stuff. John Logajan mentioned
general deflation as the cause. I do not know about that, but I suppose the
specific deflation of the cost of producing gold itself may be playing a role.

Gold may be losing value. Historically, most physical substances and raw
materials have gotten cheaper. But commodities can gain in value when
processed. Potatoes are worth more as snack food than raw. In England in the
18th century clockmakers learned to make steel springs to drive clock and
watch works, which made iron more valuable than gold. Intel converts sand
(silicon) into the most valuable substance on earth.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 13:41:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24348;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:35:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:35:56 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:33:34 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd05b3$44efe820$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"6qVxc1.0.9y5.vimZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13659
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Try this, Robin.

Euclid: 1,"A line is a width-less length".

        2,"The boundaries of a line are points".

        3,"The line is the boundary of a surface".

        4,"The point has only position and no dimension".

So,if you run an infinite group of lines of equal length
through a point in every possible direction so that their
midpoints cross at the point, you will create a sphere with
a radius r = 0.5*l.

If the capacitance of each line of length l (meters)= eo*l = 8.84E-12
farad/meter, then you should end up with a sphere with a capacitance
4(pi)*eo*r farads.

Then again, if you "bend" a group of length-only lines into
a circle with radius r and a line length of 2(pi)r the
capacitance of that group is eo*2(pi)r farads, and since
the lines making up the group have no dimensions other than length the
"minor radius" of the group will fit through a point that has no radius.
:-)

In your spare time you might peruse:
Riemannian-Minkowski-Einstein, Calculus of Tensors, to get a feel for the
way that waves (energy)propagating along
the boundary of these "strings" can have three velocities
n*c*alpha^n', n*c/alpha^n' and c, with corresponding times
t", t' and t respectively. Alpha = 0.00729729 the "fine structure constant",
also the sin of 0.4181x degrees etc.,
which brings in the geometry of the wave-boundary interaction.

I plan on really digging deeper into this after the first of the year, say
about the 30th of February. :-)

Regards,    Frederick





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 14:09:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29449;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:00:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:00:58 -0800
Message-Id: <199712102200.RAA20501 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re:  DMEC Research
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 17:08:30 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,
        <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
cc: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"40jjU3.0.nB7.H4nZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13660
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hal Puthoff wrote:

>Please take some time to think about it.  Again, if you feel you need to do
>this for financial/development reasons, let us see a working kit and I can
>guarantee you that we can instantaneously (as in a day) beat their offer 
>by at
>least a factor of 10, both financially and with regard to working agreements.
>There is no scarcity, so don't get railroaded or starry-eyed about false
>prosperity at this point.

And let me add to that that our (Infinite Energy's) considerable contacts 
and supporters can do at least as well as that in about that same time 
frame -- a day or so. With EarthTech's supporters and our supporters, 
you'd have the greatest financial clout possible. All we need is ONE 
irrefutable SMOT in our hot little hands. We don't just publish 
magazines. We have arranged already to have large resources come in to 
fund the best techhnologies that will emerge.

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 14:23:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26023;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348F8233.6389 itl.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:03:31 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Hudib1.0.WM6.X9nZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13661
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:
 
> ...> they will not admit it because some of Greenpeace's supporters would
> have a horror of such a source of energy.

	Q:  Why would some of the Greenpeace supporters have a horror of
> such an energy source?
> 
>                         Thanks,
> 
>                                         John

BTW, Greg still hasn't identified the "conservation organisation" yet. 
Short of the so called "Wise Use" movement in the States, which actually 
has links with far right militia groups, I can't think of any group who 
would act all secretive like this looks so far. Go on Greg, tell us who 
it is!

	There is a school of thought that suggests that if mankind is 
given access to unlimited energy, we would have unlimited ability to 
wreak environmental damage on the world. I believe that can be avoided.
	Clean energy such as the RMOG may, or may not, produce would, 
it's true, solve excess greenhouse gas emissions, and other types of 
energy related pollution, at a stroke but would also give us the ability 
to live comfortably anywhere on the planet, thus some of the current 
limits on population growth would be removed.  A continuously growing 
population with a rising material standard of living would come up 
against the stops faster than ever. Civilisation creates other types of 
pollution and waste from the mining, processing and refining of the 
various substances/chemicals we need for our consumer lifestyle. 
Similarly for manufacturing processes. They also destroy wildflife 
habitats and waste non-renewable resources etc etc. As I have said 
before, if we use infinite energy responsibly we can look forward to a 
golden-green age of plenty. Get it wrong and we could screw up the 
ecosystems of the planet big time. The only sure way to know how much 
abuse they can take before bend becomes break is to "run the experiment". 
- are we feeling lucky punks?


Nick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 14:33:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29617;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:27:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:27:47 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <5c82c741.348f1588 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:19:50 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, reed@zenergy.com
Subject: superconductivity
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"25ZSc2.0.aE7.STnZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13662
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In 1985 I called Hal Puthoff and said something to the effect that I think
there is a link between zero point energy and gravity and Hal said, "I think
so to"  Hal sent me a copy of E Tryon's paper on the zero energy universe.
Since then evidence for superconductivity has been found in palladium
electrodes by Celani.  Chubb has found that grain size (superconductor size)
effects energy output, and I have applied for a patent for the vibration of a
superconductor at 

Frequency = 37 x 10^6 Hz / Length of superconductor

for the production of RF energy.

Poldnekov has also discovered a gravitational anomaly associated with
superconductors.

Low and behold my IE has just arrived.  Harold Aspden writes about
"Supergravitons and Cold Fusion"

What does this all mean, I now can't say this loudly enough..since I'm on
file.

1.  Squeeze a superconductor to induce nuclear change.
2.  Vibrate a superconductor to produce energy.
3.  Rotate a superconductor to induce a gravitomagnetic field.
 
At Power Gen 95 G Miley asked me something to the effect of what function do I
think preheating preforms in the CETI cell.  Chip Ransford said at the Storm's
residence that preheating will set a cold fusion cell on fire.

Now I know..Preheating vibrates the superconductive structures at their "cold
fusion" frequency.

At the Nuclear Society E Mallove commented about the SMOT. He said something
to the effect that it will change everything.   It said, "It will never
work..It does not involve the elements of superconductivity or electron
condensations."  It told the same thing to Reed Huish when he showed me the
McKey technology in Pheonix.  I told Reed, If you want to make electrical
power work with superconductive technology.

In September I spoke with Jim Reding about it.  After some exchange of private
information Jim said,  We never had this conversation.  

That's the core of what is happening.  Everything else is crap.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 14:43:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01042;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:36:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:36:19 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:35:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
In-Reply-To: <348F8233.6389 itl.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210141835.6540D-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"1vaBB.0.BG.WbnZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13663
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Nick Palmer wrote:

While I have some sympathy for Nick Palmers position his comments below show
why there is a backlash against the Greens.

>
> 	There is a school of thought that suggests that if mankind is
> given access to unlimited energy, we would have unlimited ability to
> wreak environmental damage on the world. I believe that can be avoided.
> 	Clean energy such as the RMOG may, or may not, produce would,
> it's true, solve excess greenhouse gas emissions, and other types of
> energy related pollution, at a stroke but would also give us the ability
> to live comfortably anywhere on the planet, thus some of the current
> limits on population growth would be removed.

This is clealrly untrue. The rate of population growth is inversely
proportional to access to energy. By all measures rising wealth has equated
to lower population growth.

A continuously growing
> population with a rising material standard of living would come up
> against the stops faster than ever. Civilisation creates other types of
> pollution and waste from the mining, processing and refining of the
> various substances/chemicals we need for our consumer lifestyle.
> Similarly for manufacturing processes. They also destroy wildflife
> habitats and waste non-renewable resources etc etc.

This also runs against the presently observed economic conditions.  Rising
living standards results in improved technology deployment. In all cases
these are far more efficient than what they replace. The most obvious
example is electricity versus wood burning stoves. If the people in Nepal
had access to adequate electricty, the rate of tree cutting in the Himilayas
would decline dramatically. This would preserve habitats, reduce erosion
and improve the lives of the people living there. The major areas of concern
in the world can almost always be traced to inefficient technology. Improved
living standards would greatly alleviate the most pressing environmental
problems.

People know this. That's why you guys can, could or do get in trouble when
you advocate rediculus solutions, like negative economic growth. It won't
happen and it's advocacy just annoys people. It makes us less interested in
what you have to say about real problems.


> As I have said
> before, if we use infinite energy responsibly we can look forward to a
> golden-green age of plenty. Get it wrong and we could screw up the
> ecosystems of the planet big time.

>The only sure way to know how much
> abuse they can take before bend becomes break is to "run the experiment".
> - are we feeling lucky punks?
>

This is also not true. These things can be measured and monitored on an
on-going basis. With the correct negative feedback loops these can be
controlled easily. You guys have a role to play to ensure these feedback
loops are in place and working.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:00:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03840;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:55:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:55:39 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b4cb056793 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:56:59 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"ugpDp2.0.tx.ZtnZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13664
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:33 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>Try this, Robin.

Robin?


[snip]
>
>So,if you run an infinite group of lines of equal length
>through a point in every possible direction so that their
>midpoints cross at the point, you will create a sphere with
>a radius r = 0.5*l.
>
>If the capacitance of each line of length l (meters)= eo*l = 8.84E-12
>farad/meter, then you should end up with a sphere with a capacitance
>4(pi)*eo*r farads.
>
>Then again, if you "bend" a group of length-only lines into
>a circle with radius r and a line length of 2(pi)r the
>capacitance of that group is eo*2(pi)r farads, and since
>the lines making up the group have no dimensions other than length the
>"minor radius" of the group will fit through a point that has no radius.
[snip]


Using the CRC value for capacitance of a (conducting) sphere not in the
vicinity of another object:

   C = (0.278x10^-12 F/m)*r

Using your formula C=4(pi)*eo*r, you get:

   C = 4(pi)*eo*r = 4(3.14159)(4.42x10^-12 F/m)r = (5.55x10^-11 F/m)*r

which appears to be 5000 times too big.  Do I have a mistake?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:03:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04326;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:58:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:58:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348F1DBC.7C05 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:55:47 -0600
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
References: <199712101902.NAA01907 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vNn0j2.0.V31.tvnZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13665
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
> 
> I offer a few speculations (for which I may have to ulitmately apologize):
> 
> 1.) Watson can't get the SMOT's to work, is making up a reason to back out.
> 2.)  ...  well that about covers it. :-)

Unfortunately, this can't be the case if his original SMOT works. If his
original SMOT works, he doesn't need to back out, simply offer a refund
to those who were promised closed-loop SMOTs and demonstrate that his
original SMOT works. He will still be the hero.

If, on the other hand, his original SMOT never did work, then his
actions are indeed baffling. Why go to all this trouble, and sell all
these SMOT's just to refund the money 6 months later? Why lie about the
original SMOT working? Maybe he felt like he was close to a solution,
and just wanted several other people working on the problem. So lie,
tell them you've got one working, and get them working on the problem.
But even this scenario baffles me; why not sell the SMOTs as originally
promised, namely as personally assembled ramps with no OU promises? Why
UP the promise just 2 months ago to closed-loop SMOTs? If he's not
sincere, I still don't understand.

In any case, he's made several legal contracts with several witnesses
and an archived record of the transactions. He can't legally just send
the money back without permission. If he cannot deliver the SMOTs, then
at the very least, he can offer a refund with interest to those who will
accept, but no current contract can supercede the previous contracts
made, and there is ample evidence in the archives of what he promised to
deliver.

Greg, it's time to come clean, or show proof. It can't be that difficult
to show proof once you choose to do so. Send a working SMOT to somebody,
like Hal Puthoff, or if you only have one working SMOT, make a
video-tape and bring in witnesses to observe it. Several people on this
group have expressed an interest in coming down there if you send them a
video-tape of the working SMOT. So borrow someone's video equipment and
make a tape. 

Show proof! There's no reason not to!

Craig

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:29:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15466;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:22:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:22:01 -0800
Message-Id: <348F1D1E.FA809637 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:52:14 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com> <348EF0E4.1003@interlaced.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"m5adp3.0.Yn3.OGoZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13666
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> 
[snip quotes]
> 
> So, Jim, - Do you have the equipment to pulse-modulate the carrier with
> a random information stream?  How about a pulse generator that would
> send two information bits, either two pulses, or a single pulse
> determined by a random two-state switch?  One scope channel senses the
> outgoing and the other channel the incoming pulse.
> 
[snip]

Nmitz had sent Mozart Symphony 40. (at 4.7c trough a wave guide).

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:40:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09409;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:34:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:34:07 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:32:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
In-Reply-To: <348F1DBC.7C05 ix.netcom.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210152758.32368A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"YH2933.0.uI2.hRoZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13667
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Craig Haynie wrote:
>
> Greg, it's time to come clean, or show proof. It can't be that difficult
> to show proof once you choose to do so. Send a working SMOT to somebody,
> like Hal Puthoff, or if you only have one working SMOT, make a
> video-tape and bring in witnesses to observe it. Several people on this
> group have expressed an interest in coming down there if you send them a
> video-tape of the working SMOT. So borrow someone's video equipment and
> make a tape.
>
> Show proof! There's no reason not to!
>

I will return to Australia for dates 12 - 16th inclusive. I've leaving here
in 5 minutes. I will have email access in oz. I can make time on the 13th
and 14th to visit Greg. Greg if you want to keep your reputation hear and
avoid potnetial legal issues show me a working RMOG or SMOT. My email
address is: msevior physics.unimelb.edu.au. I will check in again on the
12th of december in oz.

My work phone number in oz is: 3-9344-5438
   home phone number in oz is: 3-9852-1737

Give me a call on the 12th of December in oz.

Cheers

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 15:43:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10399;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:39:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:39:05 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b4d6fa675a [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:40:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"5W-d91.0.NY2.DWoZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13668
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:33 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>Try this, Robin.

Robin?


[snip]
>
>So,if you run an infinite group of lines of equal length
>through a point in every possible direction so that their
>midpoints cross at the point, you will create a sphere with
>a radius r = 0.5*l.
>
>If the capacitance of each line of length l (meters)= eo*l = 8.84E-12
>farad/meter, then you should end up with a sphere with a capacitance
>4(pi)*eo*r farads.
>
>Then again, if you "bend" a group of length-only lines into
>a circle with radius r and a line length of 2(pi)r the
>capacitance of that group is eo*2(pi)r farads, and since
>the lines making up the group have no dimensions other than length the
>"minor radius" of the group will fit through a point that has no radius.
[snip]

Oops!  Correction:

Using the CRC value for capacitance of a (conducting) sphere not in the
vicinity of another object:

   C = (0.278x10^-12 F/cm)*r = (2.78x10^-15 F/m)*r

Using your formula C=4(pi)*eo*r, you get:

   C = 4(pi)*eo*r = 4(3.14159)(4.42x10^-14 F/m)r = (5.55x10^-13 F/m)*r

which appears to be 200 times too big.  Do I have another mistake?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 16:44:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18973;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:38:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:38:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348F3518.88DF4C7C compassnet.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:34:32 -0600
From: "R. R. Stiffler" <stiffler compassnet.com>
Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bifilar coil question
References: <e20863cb.348eadbb aol.com> <348ED225.B3E2EC1B@verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"oV69R1.0.Ge4.bNpZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13669
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>  Bifilar coils  have large interwinding capacitances between two coils (A and B) For example my 50mm diameter 170mm length coil wounded with 0.45mm wire have 5nF intercoil capacitance. This is enough to create couplings in the same order of magnetic cou
plings on high frequencies or transients with large voltages. When magnetic and capacitive couplings occurs in the same time, strange, unpredictable result could be obtained.
>
> Moral: Try and see. Theoretic analysis may little help to predict what will be happen on bifilar, specially on long coils.
>
> Even, some results may not be reproducible (even) using the same material. Tiny marginal balances may occurs once inside a coil, leading very strange results very hard to understand.
>

Way two big. The 132 on the BaFe is a total length of 11cm and the inter C can not be measured with any equipment I have for such things. I have not done anything with large coils as the limitation here is the core.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 16:43:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13322;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:41:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:41:45 -0800
Message-ID: <348F36D6.7B22 interlaced.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:41:58 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com> <348EF0E4.1003@interlaced.net> <348F1D1E.FA809637@verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"W3INH.0.1G3.8RpZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13671
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 

> Nmitz had sent Mozart Symphony 40. (at 4.7c trough a wave guide).
> 
Wow, Hamdi!! - Mozart in warp drive!  I wonder if Jim is familiar with
this? - I wonder if AT&T is familiar with this!!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 16:45:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14002;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:43:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:43:12 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110724b0b4e733cc83 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:42:57 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: "Lost Science" by Gerry Vassilatos
Resent-Message-ID: <"-VJEJ2.0.bQ3.USpZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13672
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[originally posted to freenrg-l, reposted to vortex-l
 at the request of Jed Rothwell]

"Lost Science" by Gerry Vassilatos
(Borderland Sciences, ISBN 0-945685-25-4, 347 pp)

Contents
 1. Luminous World: Baron Karl Von Reichenbach
 2. Hearing Through Wires: Antonio Meucci
 3. Earth Energy and Vocal Radio: Nathan Stubblefield
 4. Broadcast Power: Nikola Tesla
 5. Ultra Microscopes and Cure Rays: R. Raymond Rife
 6. Endless Light: Thomas Henry Moray
 7. Electrogravitic Engines: Thomas Townsend Brown
 8. Deadly Sound: Gavreau
 9. The Fusor Reactor: Philo Farnsworth
10. Mind, Fire and Thermodynamics
    Bibliography

So far, I've only read chapters 2,3,4,7 and part of 9.
You need a big grain of salt; Vassilatos is one of those
authors who 'knows' what his subjects were thinking about
(although thankfully he refrains from inventing dialog)
and is able to turn the slightest hint of possibility
into several pages of text...  Nevertheless, it's very
interesting reading...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 16:45:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11261;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:38:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:38:02 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102801b0b4e4cc0726 [12.64.66.12]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0b4a14daa5e [199.237.131.243]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:38:34 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SMOT the undead
Resent-Message-ID: <"S5Kh83.0.ql2.fNpZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13670
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Horace -

  > There was no promise for a working ou
  > device, was there?

As I recall, yes there was. Greg repeatedly claimed that a rollaway or
rollaround was evidence of OU behavior. He claimed that his devices could
perform these feats. Whether or not they did, he has not shipped, and it's
become quite apparent to me that there will never be any such shipments. I
also have a great deal of doubt now about the claimed replications, since
among these there has also been no attempt to ship a working device to
others for verification.

Had I been able to get a reliable and convincing rollaway from any device I
built, that thing would have had its components locked into place with
epoxy and been FedExed to Mallove or Little faster than you can say
"magneto-caloric effect".

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 17:49:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26471;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:39:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:39:56 -0800
Message-Id: <348F4458.64C7D4CB verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:39:36 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com> <348EF0E4.1003@interlaced.net> <348F1D1E.FA809637@verisoft.com.tr> <348F36D6.7B22@interlaced.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uVKZ73.0.WT6.gHqZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13673
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> 
> Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> >
> 
> > Nmitz had sent Mozart Symphony 40. (at 4.7c trough a wave guide).
> >
> Wow, Hamdi!! - Mozart in warp drive!  I wonder if Jim is familiar with
> this? - I wonder if AT&T is familiar with this!!
> 
> Frank Stenger

Performed at 1995(?), distance was only 11 cm, because method is passing the signal trough a barrier which is strongly attenued and survived for only for this length. I previously posted references, but could not find now. If you want it I am gonna look f
or.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 18:40:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05125;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:35:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:35:41 -0800
Message-ID: <348F518A.6282 interlaced.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:35:54 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
References: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com> <348EF0E4.1003@interlaced.net> <348F1D1E.FA809637@verisoft.com.tr> <348F36D6.7B22@interlaced.net> <348F4458.64C7D4CB@verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"YEJyh3.0.rF1.x5rZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13675
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
 I previously posted references, but could not find now. If you want it
I am gonna look for.
> 

That's kind of you, Hamdi, but no need for me.  However, I would think
Jim O. would be interested, right Jim?

Thank's again for the offer, Hamdi!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 18:41:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04108;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:30:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:30:03 -0800
Message-ID: <348F4FF9.AC3A99BD ihug.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:29:14 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Bifilar coil question
References: <e20863cb.348eadbb aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"bi-Pr3.0.t_.d0rZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13674
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Wire B should be induced with a BACK/COUNTER  - EMF

HLafonte wrote:

> To all,
>    I need to get some opinions on the behavior of a bifilar coil.
> If the two wires having currents going in opposite directions are labled wire
> A and wire B, in the coil, then what do you think would happen if.
> 1. The coil is in a steady state, with current following.
> 2. Wire A is made an open circuit, and the magnetic field around it falls at a
> maximun rate as in a automobile spark coil.
> 3. Wire B has no opposing magnetic field now, and takes on a new configuration
> with respect to the way it's magnetic field is distributed around the coil.
> 4. Here is the big question, as this field moves into it's new configuration,
> is a CEMF or EMF induced into the coil (wire B) , or does the current flow in
> wire B stay at a steady state as it's magnetic field redistributes its self ?
> This is very important, I would like to get opinions on this.
> Thanks,
> Butch LaFonte



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:07:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10192;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:02:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:02:17 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <c62a645e.348f56cb aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:58:17 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"WVCgJ.0.6V2.tUrZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13676
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Puthoff offers a certificate verifying OU claims.  If I get anything
working...I''ll want one of those.  It will be worth its weight in million
dollar bills.  More than gold.

Of course if my stuff (vibrating superconductive technology) doesn't work I
can always make bigger claims.  This is an effective smoke screen.  It worked
for Stan Myer.  Perhaps it's the thing to do.

ie
..........................................................
>7) DMEC will develop a 10Kw 50/60Hz RMOG unit aimed at the home market.
............................................................
Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:13:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09448;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:08:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:08:51 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <872ae8d6.348f5365 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:43:46 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, uban@world.std.com
Subject: superconductor engineering problem...need help
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"ftae83.0.UJ2.zarZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13677
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Uban writes

................................................................

From:	 (Jim Uban)
To:	FZNIDARSIC AOL.COM

Hi Frank,
	I was thinking about your
experiment and think maybe you were
not actually getting a current to 
flow in the superconductors.
	My reasoning is this:
An electromagnet is brought up to
the superconductor.  This induces a
current in the SC.  The current 
creates a magnetic field which
perfectly opposes the EM mag field,
thus cancelling the magnetic flux
through the SC.  The EM is turned
off.  The flux rises, which is the
flux formed by the SC's current.
The SC sees this rise and an EMF
is impressed on the SC to oppose 
the magnetic flux rise.  This
impressed current is opposite to
the already-flowing current in the
SC.  So, the current drops in the SC.
This proceeds until the magnetic
flux is gone, but also the current
in the SC is gone.
			Jim U.
......................................
Jim I've got a supercurrent to flow.  I could feel it when I placed a magnet
next to the superconductive disc.  I took the superconductor out of the
nitrogen bath and placed it near a compass.  For about 30 seconds the compass
reacted wildly to the supercurrent.  After  30 seconds the superconductor
warmed and the supercurrent went away.
.....................................................
Now for my problem.  From the feel of the force on the magnet the supercurrent
is only on the order of a few amps.  I want kiloamps of supercurrent.
......................................................
My method involves passing one pole of a long thin electromagnet through a
hole in the superconductor, turning the magnet off, pulling the deenergised
magnet out of the superconductor and  repeating the process.  The electomagnet
was made from a big nail.  It was strong enough to pick up a bunch of paper
clips.
We repeated this process about 100 times and only induced a few amps in the
superconductor.  The nitorgen is boiling away and we all have lives and don't
have time to repeat the process 10,000 times.  I need a better way.
....................................................
I thought of a better more powerfull magnet with lots of iron.  The trouble is
when all that warm iron hits the liquid nitrogen it boiles like mad.  It makes
fog and the magnet cannot be reinserted.
.............................................................
I am now thinking of making a long 3 segment magnet.  The segments will turn
on in a 1,2,3 sequence  simulating the insertion of a magnet through the hole
in the superconductor.  After all the segments are on all three segments will
then simultaneously turn off.  This will be done at a rate of  100 Hz with an
electronic timing circuit.  Will this work?  I asked the phyiscs prof's at
IUP.  They can do all the vector math with curl and divergence but they could
not answer this question.   Does anyone know will this work?  Is there a
better method to induce a strong circulating current that I don't know about?

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:23:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13495;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:20:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:20:13 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:17:53 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd05e3$5e584480$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"xq7GI2.0.kI3.ilrZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13679
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of
Tensors


>At 2:33 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>Try this, Robin.
>
>Robin?
>
>
>[snip]
>>
>>So,if you run an infinite group of lines of equal length
>>through a point in every possible direction so that their
>>midpoints cross at the point, you will create a sphere with
>>a radius r = 0.5*l.
>>
>>If the capacitance of each line of length l (meters)= eo*l = 8.84E-12
>>farad/meter, then you should end up with a sphere with a capacitance
>>4(pi)*eo*r farads.
>>
>>Then again, if you "bend" a group of length-only lines into
>>a circle with radius r and a line length of 2(pi)r the
>>capacitance of that group is eo*2(pi)r farads, and since
>>the lines making up the group have no dimensions other than length the
>>"minor radius" of the group will fit through a point that has no radius.
>[snip]
>
>Oops!  Correction:
>
>Using the CRC value for capacitance of a (conducting) sphere not in the
>vicinity of another object:
>
>   C = (0.278x10^-12 F/cm)*r = (2.78x10^-15 F/m)*r

2.78E-13 F/cm = 2.78E-11 F/meter, doesn't it?

4(pi)*8.84E12 farads/meter*r = 1.11E-10*r

1.1108E-10/2.78E-11 = 4.0 , looks to me like there is an errror in the CRC
"Bible"

2.78E-11 is (pi)*eo = (pi)*8.84E-12 farads/m*r.


>
>Using your formula C=4(pi)*eo*r, you get:
>
>   C = 4(pi)*eo*r = 4(3.14159)(4.42x10^-14 F/m)r = (5.55x10^-13 F/m)*r
>
>which appears to be 200 times too big.  Do I have another mistake?

C = q/V = q/(k*q)/r = r/k = 4(pi)*eo*r

Try this on for size. alpha = sin^-1   0.4181076 degrees.

Or, alpha*n = 2(pi)

360/0.4181076 = 861,1/alpha = 137.0371,861*alpha = 2(pi).

Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
"dimensionless point" that only allows
angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
in space as opposed to three "mutually
perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)

How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?

Regards,       Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:24:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13748;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:21:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:21:28 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712110321.VAA02193 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research (fwd)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:21:22 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3VKNa1.0.jM3.tmrZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13680
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Craig Haynie wrote:

>> 1.) Watson can't get the SMOT's to work, is making up a reason to back out.

> If, on the other hand, his original SMOT never did work, then his
> actions are indeed baffling. Why go to all this trouble, and sell all
> these SMOT's just to refund the money 6 months later? Why lie about the
> original SMOT working?

The late Chris Tinsley pointed out that magnetized objects are in a lower
energy state than when they were unmagnetized.  Thus there was some amount
of speculation that energy was provided by the balls getting slowly
magnetized.  But eventually they would saturate and stop providing
energy.  Therefore the SMOT might loop for a bit and quit.  I privately
dubbed this the "tired balls" theory. :-)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:25:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11346;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:20:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:20:57 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:33:43 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd05dd$331ea6c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"0-P212.0.7n2.LmrZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13678
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control


>Greg,
>
>>I am trying to get agreement to send the 5 verification/gift SMOT Mk4
>>units ASAP.
>
>Great. But there were others who gave as much as they could to the project,
>spent much time and energy, did the experiments, discussed it, gave
>constructive advice, and then believed in you enough to send in their
>hard-earned money... what about us?

Caveat Emptor?    :-)

Regards,      Frederick
>
>Dan Quickert
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 19:26:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11649;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:24:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:24:22 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:18:05 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: History... FTL "low budget high end science" (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971210221704.27750F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VZYp22.0.xr2.aprZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13681
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear Vo.,

	History and Ethics of Science
	Warning:  I will editorialize some.

	For years I have maintained and often been able to prove high 
tech does not have to be high cost.  I call the ethic "Cavendish".

	J J Thompson, Rutherford, Wilson and a whole bunch of other 
people at the Cavendish did primary fundamantal work with about zip for 
instruments.  They MADE them.  And they had humor

	Junior associates of the Cavedish labs would entertain the 
"big guns" periodically.  An example of this is when J J Thompson was, as 
we say in local slang talk "ate slap up" with ions.  

	To the tune of My Darling Clementine

	Oh my darlings, oh my darlings, oh my darling ions mine,
	You are lost and gone forever,
	When just once you recombine


	The history of FTL on coaxial cable goes much farther back than 
1992. There are descriptions of actual simple experiments  to show this 
from the 50s and 60s.  
	This work does not require any frequencies higher than 100 meg 
cps not does it require sophisticated instruments.  Any good 60 meg cps 
scope is fine for seeing the effect.
	A simple oscillator made from a 2N2222 transistor will easily do 
the job.  Use two 2N3904 and 2N3906 transistors to make two buffers to 
buffer the output to be able to drive a 50 ohm cable.  Drive both buffers 
from the same oscillator.

	Send both buffered signals though identical phase shift 
networks.  One will be switched, one will not.

	Network:  22 ohm series resistor to isolate capacitive load.  
Capacitor couple the signal with 100 pF cap.  Tie the cap to ground with 
two resistors in series, 2.2 K ohms and 2.2K ohms.  Across each of the 
bottom resistors connect a 2N222 as a switch with the collector on the 
high side and the emitter to ground.  Use a pulse transformer made from 
20 turns bifilar ~ 18 to 26 AWG on any handy ferrite of powdered metal 
core.  One set of winding is between ground and base, use 470 ohm series 
base resistor.  Set both switching transistors up the same. This 
will allow you to drive the switch with a simple floating battery and an 
oscillator or function generator can be used if you want, or a manual switch.

	If this is beyond your ken, I strongly suggest you find either a 
good TV repair or ham radio operator person.

	The network induces phase shift in the 100 meg cps signal.  When 
switch transistor is on the phase lead is greater than when it is off.

	The basic set up is to use 2 channel scope.  Send the unswitched 
signal to channel B with about 10 yards of coax.  Terminate B and trigger 
from B. 

	Run out about a couple of hundred yards of coax, RG-59, or the 
like is fine.  Measure it and calculate how long it would take light in 
vacuum to go this distance.  Connect it to the switched 
buffer at one end and the scope channel A at the other.  Terminate. 
	
	Do a little noodling around.

> 
> Are you having trouble viewing the images too? HELP !! We need a GRAPHIC
> CONVERSION FAST >>> Vortex please help.


	I have no idea what the set up Jim O. has suggested is.  My 
system cannot read the file. 


	Editorial:

	Many find information from Internet or data bases.  Most data 
bases do not go back more than 20 years.  There is a whole pile of stuff 
not on data bases.  The ethic of the US PTO is to 
encourage inventors to give their work to humanity by granting them 17 to 
20 years exclusivity.  Often business interests will not wich to pursue 
some avanue of product if they cannot have exclusivity so in may cases if 
there has been patented work and the patent has lapsed this is not then a 
'good bet' for this thinking. 
	The world ended in 1977.... twenty years ago ... anything prior 
to taht is "old and no good..."  or "maybe cannot be patented".  
Transistors....a lot of analog circuits.... many quite useful 
instruments, tools and mature systems and devices .... stuff like that.
	


						J

	ADDENDUM:

	All must be grounded and terminated as per usual RF practice.


					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 20:13:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25921;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:06:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:06:26 -0800
Message-Id: <199712110406.XAA01938 mail.enter.net>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <chronos mailman.enter.net>
From: "Robert G. Flower" <chronos mail.enter.net>
Organization: Applied Science Associates
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:40:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: MAGNETIC FIELD INSTRUMENTATION
Reply-to: chronos enter.net
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"O5VGO2.0.nK6.0RsZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13682
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Forwarded from newsgroup sci.physics.electromag.  I have no 
connection w/ the seller, just passing along info.


-------quote ----------

From: DQCB48A prodigy.com (Don Klipstein) 
Subject: F/S:  Fluxgate magnetometers 
Date: 10 Dec 1997 15:58:26 GMT 


MAGNETIC FIELD INSTRUMENTATION

Prices include shipping in Lower 48.

MEDA uMAG-02WB       Handheld, battery-operated digital
fluxgate magnetometer.  Sensitivity: +/- 0 - 20.00 - 200.0 -
2000 milliGauss F/S, DC-400 Hz (-3dB   400 Hz ref to DC).
Analog output +/- 2.000 V F/S.  Linearity .02% or better.  
Absolute accuracy +/- 0.5% or better, traceable to NIST.
With 10 meter cable and transverse probe, 6 spare batteries 
in storage case, multiple-battery harness for up to 8 
batteries (approximately 12 days continuous operation), 
analog output cable w/BNC (to oscilloscope input), manual,
calibration certificate, transit case.  In new condition.
Current price from manufacturer is $900. Sell at $400.
Three available: all three, $1100 including 3-channel
chart recorder (see below).

LEEDS & NORTHRUP SERVO RECORDER 136-304-304-304-00-00-00-
L0088-L0088-L0088-6-BV-000.    Three-channel servo recorder,
modified for potential inputs.  Can be internally adjusted
from +/- 1 millivolt F/S to +/- 2V F/S. Set at +/- 1V F/S.
Chart speed   60 Hz 2cm/hr or 2 cm/minute (at 50 Hz = 1.67
cm/min or 1.67 cm/hr).  Internal line voltage selection for
100/120 V, 220 V or 240 V. Power burden: 27 VA.  Power input;
3-wire IEC connector. (Uses standard IEC cords).  With 2 sets
spare pens, 2 boxes charts, NEMA line cord, a few spare parts, 
carrying case; Used, good condition; $100.

HALL EFFECT DETECTORS

Texas Instruments TL173C.  Linear output magnetic field sensor. 
Range: +/- 500 Gauss. Usable to 0.1 Gauss. 12VDC operation. TO-92
package. With data; price includes shipping. $4.00 each; 3 for $10.00.
100 pcs: $150: 400 pcs; $400.

------- end quote ----------


Best regards,

Bob Flower

=============================================
Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates
> Scientific Software & Instrumentation <
> Quality Control Engineering <
=============================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 20:17:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17642;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:11:40 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:11:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348F661F.547D ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:03:44 -0600
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
References: <199712110321.VAA02193 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"0IWpo.0.aJ4.xVsZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13683
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Craig Haynie wrote:
> 
> >> 1.) Watson can't get the SMOT's to work, is making up a reason to back out.
> 
> > If, on the other hand, his original SMOT never did work, then his
> > actions are indeed baffling. Why go to all this trouble, and sell all
> > these SMOT's just to refund the money 6 months later? Why lie about the
> > original SMOT working?
> 
> The late Chris Tinsley pointed out that magnetized objects are in a lower
> energy state than when they were unmagnetized.  Thus there was some amount
> of speculation that energy was provided by the balls getting slowly
> magnetized.  But eventually they would saturate and stop providing
> energy.  Therefore the SMOT might loop for a bit and quit.  I privately
> dubbed this the "tired balls" theory. :-)

Yeah, but have you ever heard of anything like this? What's the
probability of this? If the ball became magnetized, could it deliver
more energy than the energy required to magnetize it? Could it deliver
more energy than the energy required to lift the ball out of the
magnetic well it created? Could it possibly run for more than a couple
of loops? This implies that Greg Watson was originally honest and
sincere. He worked hard for months on end, dedicated his time to the
effect, and then, BOOM, he gets a roll-around that lasts for several
days, (if I remember correctly), followed by nothing -- a dead device
with a magnetized ball. And even if this did occur, he would have known
this after the first week, several weeks before he offered his SMOT
devices. Even if he didn't find out then, he would have known before mid
September when he upped the offer and told everyone he was going to ship
roll-around SMOTs. Even if he built the roll-around SMOT, and then,
AMAZINGLY, put it aside for months while he continued his further
research, and then found out recently that the thing no longer works,
then this scenario requires that he 'look for an out' rather than just
admit his error. I still don't get it.

If I discovered a free-energy device, I would do one of three things:

1) Hide it -- keep it secret -- until I could find funding to develop
it. Greg Watson did not choose this course.

2) Prove to other people that it DOES work -- so I could get funding --
without revealing its how it works. Greg Watson did not choose this
course.

3) Be open about it -- come clean -- show people THAT it works and HOW
it works so that I could get funding and file a patent. Greg Watson did
not choose this course.

What I would NOT do is what Greg Watson did do: namely to show people
HOW it worked without showing people THAT it worked. This baffles me. If
I discovered a free-energy device, and was inclined to show others HOW
it worked and get them working on it too, one of the FIRST things I
would do would be to PROVE it -- for so many reasons. It would make me
rich; it would make the world rich; it would make me a hero; I would
retire and die knowing that I saved lives and made the world a much
better place; people would build a statue of me. But Greg doesn't do
this. He shows people HOW it works but does not prove THAT it works.
This is odd and I don't understand.

Now if Greg decides NOT to refund the money nor deliver the device, or
if he offers to sell something else, or to up the SMOT offer to
something better for more money, then the events start to make sense.
Otherwise, the only other thing I can conclude is that he is sincere.

This story hasn't quite played-out yet. Schrodinger hasn't yet looked at
his cat.

Craig

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 10 20:22:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18110;
	Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:15:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:15:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <348F6A53.1435 skypoint.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:21:39 -0600
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The price of gold.
References: <199712101554_MC2-2B84-1ABA compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"_zVPx.0.uQ4.XZsZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13684
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> I have never understood why banks and nations keep gold in the first place.
> Why gold? Why not tin, copper, marzipan or chocolate?

There are ultimately two ways to exchange value -- barter or IOU.  Barter
is direct commodity exchange.  IOU is some promise of future exchange.

Barter's failing is the obvious that you might have chickens and the
other guy has boots and you want boots but he doesn't want chickens.

You can write the guy an IOU on a scrap of paper, but he has to trust
you and if he trades the IOU off, the next guy has to trust you too,
and so on.

You really want something of some rarity (so it can't be mass produced
or faked) that gets around the need to trust the other guy.  Gold is
a natural for this service.  It is relatively rare, and very durable.
Consummable commodities serving as money tend to be very bulky.

Holders of gold took to storing it in reserves from which it could
be loaned out and for which they received interest.  Controllers of
the reserves began to simply issue IOU's again against the gold
held in the reserves.  Controllers of the reserves realized that
claims tended to be staggered so that they could issue multiple
IOU's against the same gold and collect more interest -- fractional
reserve banking.

Governments eventually got into the money business and decided that
gold reserves limited their ability to tax via inflation.  So gold
backing was in many places eliminated.  

> I'd take a ton of chocolate over a ton of gold any day.

I'm prepared to take exchange an unlimited amount of chocolate
for your gold, ton for ton.  Give me an immediate call! :-)

> The high value of gold seems to be psychological to me

All value is subjective -- and for commodity items, it is the aggregate
vector sum of all participant's subjective values.

> the cost of producing the stuff has fallen dramatically in recent years.
> There is now more gold being mined than ever before.

Gold has historically held its value relative to currencies corrected
for inflation.  New gold is indeed produced, but that production is
always compared against the previous holdings of gold.  Even in the
gold rush years, gold inflation didn't exceed a few percent.  Few
currencies can make the same long term claims.



 If they find a way to extract it from ocean water
> we'll have enough to pave the streets with the stuff. John Logajan mentioned
> general deflation as the cause. I do not know about that, but I suppose the
> specific deflation of the cost of producing gold itself may be playing a role.
> 
> Gold may be losing value. Historically, most physical substances and raw
> materials have gotten cheaper. But commodities can gain in value when
> processed. Potatoes are worth more as snack food than raw. In England in the
> 18th century clockmakers learned to make steel springs to drive clock and
> watch works, which made iron more valuable than gold. Intel converts sand
> (silicon) into the most valuable substance on earth.
> 
> - Jed

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 00:11:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17819;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:06:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:06:20 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b4dc229d5b [199.237.131.238]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:07:51 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: superconductivity
Resent-Message-ID: <"7_rzq2.0.LM4.wxvZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13685
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:19 PM 12/10/97, FZNIDARSIC wrote:
[snip]
>
>1.  Squeeze a superconductor to induce nuclear change.
>2.  Vibrate a superconductor to produce energy.
>3.  Rotate a superconductor to induce a gravitomagnetic field.
>
[snip]
>
>That's the core of what is happening.  Everything else is crap.
>
>Frank Znidarsic


That includes the Potapov devices?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 00:11:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07192;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:06:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:06:56 -0800
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:06:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greg W. and "Greenpeace" & Our Future
In-Reply-To: <348F8233.6389 itl.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971211002606.11217D-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"ri_vm1.0.Am1.UyvZq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13686
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Sorry for the cross-listing, but Greg used both! 
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Nick Palmer wrote:
-snip-
  >>BTW, Greg still hasn't identified the "conservation organisation" yet. 
  >>Short of the so called "Wise Use" movement in the States, which actually 
  >>has links with far right militia groups, I can't think of any group who 
  >>would act all secretive like this looks so far. Go on Greg, tell us who 
  >>it is!
  >>	There is a school of thought that suggests that if mankind is 
  >>given access to unlimited energy, we would have unlimited ability to 
  >>wreak environmental damage on the world. I believe that can be avoided.
  >>	Clean energy such as the RMOG may, or may not, produce would, 
  >>it's true, solve excess greenhouse gas emissions, and other types of 
  >>energy related pollution, at a stroke but would also give us the ability 
  >>to live comfortably anywhere on the planet, thus some of the current 
  >>limits on population growth would be removed.  A continuously growing 
  >>population with a rising material standard of living would come up 
  >>against the stops faster than ever. Civilisation creates other types of 
  >>pollution and waste from the mining, processing and refining of the 
  >>various substances/chemicals we need for our consumer lifestyle. 
  >>Similarly for manufacturing processes. They also destroy wildflife 
  >>habitats and waste non-renewable resources etc etc. As I have said 
  >>before, if we use infinite energy responsibly we can look forward to a 
  >>golden-green age of plenty. Get it wrong and we could screw up the 
  >>ecosystems of the planet big time. The only sure way to know how much 
  >>abuse they can take before bend becomes break is to "run the experiment". 
  >>- are we feeling lucky punks?
  >>Nick
  >>
Nick, Greg, Bill and ALL

  Nothing personal Nick, but I swear I have heard more and more that the
NEA has been teaching your line of tree-huggin logic for years now. (sigh) 
I won't open THAT Can of NEA direction worms in this post, but suggest you
keep reading and learning (own your own as best as possible OUTSIDE of
some NEA agenda acadim.)  quickly time is short -duh!!
------
Greg,
   I have followed your post since April or so of this year and was
wondering if it is all public-domain.  I would assume so and assume that
If I were showing old e- I could set up a how it SMOT'ted from the start!
This may be legal to you (hence I'm asking YOU), but this is not legally
binding to ME and DMEC, RmxDg Inc(s) or Trust to be formed in the future. 
   You have been VERY Open with your point by point construction detail in
the past and I want to say THANK YOU and GOOD LUCK on your future
endeavores with your new partners, I would like to see the vortex-l and
the freenrg-l continue on however blind(ed) in your absence, but don't
know for sure if Bill B. is curator legal or files, or if you are, of if
public-domain rules in the DOMAIN.  My assumption all along has been
public-domain is the WINNER.  I can remember in the early 80's sending out
nifty tight coded 8080 assembly code programs (I thought, because I
wrote it and was proud enough to send it along via BBS's FIDO and being
amazed at how more tightly one guy could tighten up my loops, and yet
another guy could expand i/o capabilty and still reduce the overall bytes
of the finished code.  THAT WAS THE BEAUTY of the 'computer Net' back then
ALL the Brains, ALL the Individuals, ALL the effort was shared and NOTED! 
Then someone invented the term 'shareware'..(sigh).. and we now pay for
our on-line connections like never before. (albeit faster??)..hummm.
----
So, Bill &/or Greg can we, (assumed), HAVE all old post text to spread to
the world of the curious and those that could make it better, or should we
hold off a bit for au.legal / international / sky is falling concerned?
  I want to be a cheer-leader here If I might, keeping this a constant
arena of where to look for SMOT data good/bad working/failures trails and
tribulations and wish everyone success in all their works.

-=se=-

Thought for Today: " Nothing has more lives than an error you refuse to
correct." - O.A. Battista, Canadian-born author-scientist

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 02:18:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26176;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:13:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:13:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b55066b04c [199.237.131.222]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:15:03 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"GOylS3.0.vO6.9pxZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13687
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Using the CRC value for capacitance of a (conducting) sphere not in the
>>vicinity of another object:
>>
>>   C = (0.278x10^-12 F/cm)*r = (2.78x10^-15 F/m)*r
>
>2.78E-13 F/cm = 2.78E-11 F/meter, doesn't it?


Yes.  This is just charcteristic of my past week. I'm just too fatigued to
get anything right.  That's not the half of it.  The twenty-ninth edition
CRC actually gives:

C = 0.556*d where:

C = capacitance in 10^-12 F
d = diameter in centimeters

So, if I had converted correctly, I would have obtained

(1.1112x10^-12 F/cm)*r = (1.1112x10^-10 F/m)*r


>
>4(pi)*8.84E12 farads/meter*r = (1.11E-10 F/m)*r
>
>1.1108E-10/2.78E-11 = 4.0 , looks to me like there is an errror in the CRC
>"Bible"

Nope - it's just me agin. 8^(


>
>2.78E-11 is (pi)*eo = (pi)*8.84E-12 farads/m*r.
>
>
>>
>>Using your formula C=4(pi)*eo*r, you get:
>>
>>   C = 4(pi)*eo*r = 4(3.14159)(4.42x10^-14 F/m)r = (5.55x10^-13 F/m)*r
>>
>>which appears to be 200 times too big.  Do I have another mistake?
>
>C = q/V = q/(k*q)/r = r/k = 4(pi)*eo*r
>
>Try this on for size. alpha = sin^-1   0.4181076 degrees.
>
>Or, alpha*n = 2(pi)
>
>360/0.4181076 = 861,1/alpha = 137.0371,861*alpha = 2(pi).
>
>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>
>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?


A merciless but benevolent taskmaster!  8^)

OK, the minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points is a spherical
equilateral triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg., and of area H.  Now
we get:

a = 0.4181076 deg
s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
s-a = 0.2090538 deg.

Check using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate excess E:

Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3
Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(3/2)tan((s-a)/2))^0.5
Tan(E/4) = (1.49771165x10^-5)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = 3.870027972x10^-3
E/4 = 0.000858126
E = 1.548011189x10^-2

Using a unit radius (u) sphere calculate area of spherical triangle from
excess E:

H=(pi)E(u^2)/180=2.70178921x10^-4 u^2
As = 4(Pi) = area of sphere
As = 12.46637061 u^2
Ns = As/H = 46,141

So ,there are at most 46,141 triangles, each with 3 spokes adjacent. Each
spoke is counted in 6 triangles, so there should be 3/6(46141) = 23,070
spokes.

Well Fred, if by some miracle I got all those numbers right 23,070 spokes
should be the answer.  Check the arithmetic.  I will tomorrow, but for now
it's sand man time.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 02:35:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27231;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:33:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:33:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:32:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT the undead
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b0b4e4cc0726 [12.64.66.12]>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971211023120.17961F-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"C0BVe.0.Nf6.x5yZq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13688
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Rick Monteverde wrote:
  >>Horace -
  >>
  >>  > There was no promise for a working ou
  >>  > device, was there?
  >>
  >>As I recall, yes there was. Greg repeatedly claimed that a rollaway or
  >>rollaround was evidence of OU behavior. He claimed that his devices could
  >>perform these feats. Whether or not they did, he has not shipped, and it's
  >>become quite apparent to me that there will never be any such shipments. I
  >>also have a great deal of doubt now about the claimed replications, since
  >>among these there has also been no attempt to ship a working device to
  >>others for verification.
  >>
  >>Had I been able to get a reliable and convincing rollaway from any device I
  >>built, that thing would have had its components locked into place with
  >>epoxy and been FedExed to Mallove or Little faster than you can say
  >>"magneto-caloric effect".
  >>
  >>- Rick Monteverde
  >>Honolulu, HI
  >>
Point taken 'to heart' Rick (ouch).., I've report rollaway(s) and stand by
that firmly, however, todate I have not gotten any kind of a setup to link
in a round or oval for a roll AROUND (closed loop), hence I stopped/slowed
down on my super-shippable (UPS/ready) OVERKILL ffSMOT design. 
  I tried to build it in two sections and Greg (wisely?) suggested I
should think about 3-4 (quadrant) sections for better results. Being a guy
thing, I said to myself 'No', this can be done with 1, minimally 2 ramps.. 
(I randomly chose the existing radius of the N-gauge track available here
and have learned at least two lessons :(  -duh 2=<16"r
  I not only will dust off the old ffSMOT unit now, but pursue 3-4
sections as they are counter-sunk on my design (this will require 2
complete new boards (1/2 doors (ugh:(  ... hey. that's only one (1) more
solid core door.  OK... :)
------
Admittadly, I haven't been on it since before Halloween..(wkend novice).
  Don't know about "Magneto-Caloric", I think it is Gravity Assisted/Null 
Negated, hence WON'T work in outer-space. But, Little is within driving
distance for me (original plan back in May-June).. and If he'll do by you
then I too would whistle dixie all the way there to give it to him to
shake & bake-on (take-apart whatever is fine by me, my approach was 
screws and bolts (sans epoxy). I know, I don't have
the expertise yet at this point to take it to rotary and would leave it in
the hands of guys like you on the list.  My CHIN FELL when I read Greg's
first message this week about DMUC (Dmec? whatever) Inc(s).. He was the
one that reminded me/us "let's just build IT, just remember *my name*". 
  Well, If he makes a zillion dollars beyond Bill Gates, maybe he'll
remember the lister's here - somewhere down the  road. (*!*) AND he might,
should, could, would(?) send us all a FREE working RM(x)d/g unit later:)
  The effect *IS* / was unique (got my interest going anyway), but torque,
rpm(closed loop = 1rpx:( and tuning are a ways out unless Greg held out more
than WE answered FOR HIM. 
  I guess I'm saying, "I'm thinking small balls and ramps to tin cans
(rotary) and he is taking off to full-blown output units.." humm more
power to him.,.. (if I get more power from him!  :)

Best to you & yours,
power to the people...
-=se=-

"Nothing has more lives than an error you refuse to correct." 
 -- O.A. Battista, Canadian-born author-scientist

I don't know if it is OU either, but it sure is robust in behavior.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 05:58:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12957;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 05:53:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 05:53:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712111353.IAA18075 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: The price of gold.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 09:01:26 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "VORTEX" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"u9jF22.0.KA3.01_Zq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13689
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin wrote:

>Has anyone else wondered if the recent dramtic drop in the price of gold has
>anything to do with Joe Champian's activities? :-)
>
I have wondered about this too. It is probably a combination of mundane 
factors affecting the price of gold, but I would not totally rule out 
unease at various reports of low energy transmutation. Let's face it, Joe 
Champion talks to a lot of people!

We have just this week sent out a letter to all  900+ members of an 
international precious metals list -- pretty much everyone in precious 
metals. The letter promotes Infinite Energy and refers back to the 1989 
run up in Pd prices, but it also hands these people a list of about 100 
technical references on CF and low energy transmutation. It's not a 
"scare" letter, but the message is clear that there *could* be new things 
that would affect the precious metals market.

So, if you see a major drop in gold in the coming weeks OR yours truly 
has been gunned down by a group of thugs not affiliated with hot fusion [ 
:) ], you'll know why  :)

Gene Mallove

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

	Phone: 603-228-4516
	Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

		      http://www.infinite-energy.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 07:18:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20946;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:14:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:14:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:02:37 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Magnet therapy in N.Y. Times
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712111005_MC2-2B9A-EBBD compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"x5wHF2.0.C75.PD0aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13690
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The New York Times SCIENCE section on December 9, 1997 had an interesting,
off-beat article about treating pain with magnets. It is: "Study on Using
Magnets to Treat Pain Surprises Skeptics," by Lawrence K. Altman.

Here are some interesting quotes from it:

     No one was more skeptical about using magnets for pain relief than Dr.
     Carlos Vallbona, former chairman of the department of community medicine
     at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. So Dr. Vallbona was amazed
     when a study he did found that small, low intensity magnets worked, at
     least for patients experiencing symptoms that can develop years after
     polio.

     . . . a human experimentation committee allowed Dr. Vallbona to test 50
     volunteers with magnets that at 300 to 500 gauss, were slightly stronger
     than refrigerator magnets. They were made in different sizes so they
     could fit over the anatomic area identified as setting off their pain.

     . . . Dr. Vallbona asked Magnaflex Inc., a magnet manufacturer in Corpus
     Christi, Tex., to prepare active magnets and inactive devices that could
     not be told apart. The devices were labeled in code.

     . . .  After the investigators identified the source of the pain and the
     pressed on it, the 39 women and 11 men in the study graded the pain on
     scale of 0 (none) to 10 (worst). . . . The 29 who received an active
     magnet reported a reduction in pain to 4.4 from 9.6, compared with
     smaller decline to 8.4 from 9.5 among the 21 treated with a sham magnet.

     . . . their report in last month's issue of Archives of Physical and
     Rehabilitation Medicine, a leading specialty journal, has shocked many
     doctors who have scoffed at claims for magnets' medical benefits.

Note this paragraph in particular:

     In many such debates, doctors demand a biological explanation for a
     therapy's benefits. Without documentation that satisfies them, doctors
     may summarily reject the claims. Yet in their everyday practices, the
     same doctors may use other therapies that lack scientific proof for why
     they work.

The article says that if Uncle Sam did this simple test, which cost
essentially nothing, it would cost the taxpayers $50,000!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 08:22:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01598;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:16:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:16:55 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971211101553.009f000c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:15:53 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
In-Reply-To: <348E6269.5179DD5D mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
References: <199712071459.IAA10808 natasha.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"nEcdM.0.oO.r71aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13692
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Thanks for all the info!

I was amazed at how small the thing is!  My balance is much bigger and yet
it doesn't have any greater sensitivity.

I used all the data you provided and went thru the calculations to check
their numbers.

Using a reasonable value for the elastic modulus of bronze (18,000,000 psi)
I can reproduce all of their numbers quite closely EXCEPT for the expected
deflection of the balance beam.  Instead of .03 radians, which they got, I
get .016 radians....almost exactly HALF.

Here is a comparison of the other parameters:
							them			me
torsional stiffness of the band:         8.5E-9            8.8-9
oscillation period                       10 min           9.7 min

BTW, I calculate the stress in the band at 28,000 psi just to hold up the
dumbell.  Don't bang the thing on the table or the band will break.
Typical tensile strength for bronze is maybe 3-4 times that value.

On to your position sensor.  The coolest thing for this job is a Hammamatsu
position-sensitive light detector.  It's a little strip of silicon arranged
to give you an analog voltage proportional to WHERE (along the length of
the strip) your laser spot is located.  I've used one of these with great
success in an experiment around here.  Active length is only about 8 mm or
so.  Thus you wouldn't need to mount it very far away from your
balance....unless you wanted to magnify things considerably.  Hmmmm.  that
is an idea.  Locate the sensor far away where the light only hits it when
the beam is fully deflected.  That would give you greater precision in
measuring the final position.

Another crazy idea:  Don't bother with a position sensitive detector at
all.  Just place a single detector at the zero position where the light
will strike it when the beam is not deflected.  Now set the beam to
oscillating (actually this is the normal state of the beam...it's damned
hard to get it to STOP oscillating)  Use your computer + circuitry to
measure precisely the time intervals between light flashes in the detector.
 With no masses present to deflect the balance, the intervals should be
equal.  With a deflection, however, the mean position of the balance will
shift and this will cause the oscillating light beam to spend more time on
one side of the detector than the other.  For small deflections, I'll bet
the ratio of those times (left period/right period) would be highly
proportional to the DC value of the deflection itself!

Do you have Mathcad?  If so I can send you the calcs I did.  If not, I
could FAX 'em to you if you provide a number.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 08:27:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02068;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:19:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:19:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:12:30 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Cancer article
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712111116_MC2-2B9E-8D60 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"JaxNo3.0.CW.6A1aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13693
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

There is another noteworthy article in yesterday's New York Times. It is more
proof -- as if we needed it -- that creativity in science is often rewarded
with the Frozen Boot in the Butt, and that research is often dominated by
politics, turf wars and jealousy. The article is: "Judah Folkman - A Lonely
Warrior Against Cancer," by Nicholas Wade. A few quotes:

     There are few greater hazards to a scientist's career than perceiving a
     truth before the means exist to test it. Repeated assertion of one's
     insight will first invite insistent demands for proof, then skepticism,
     followed by silence, ridicule and often the loss of research funds.

The first statement is absurd. The means to test Folkman's hypothesis were
available from day one. He did test it, he found positive results, he got
rewarded with the usual punch in the nose. His theory relates to angiogenesis,
which I will not describe here. Here are two more quotes about politics:

     For most of the time since, he has been a lonely voice, turned down by
     grant-giving committees, spurned by journal editors, lampooned by
     medical students. At one moment of need in 1974 he accepted a $23
     million grant from the Monsanto Company. Harvard, where he has a joint
     appointment at the medical school, had never before accepted industry
     money of this magnitude and his academic colleagues roundly denounced
     him for selling the university's soul.

     . . . Dr. Folkman was allowed to keep the Monsanto money, which he and
     Dr. Bert Vallee used to isolate one of the first inducers of
     angiogenesis. But he continued to pay the penalty for being a surgeon
     trespassing on biochemists' turf.

The New York Times and other establishment media regularly run articles
describing the politics and rivalry that dominate science. Yet the media never
seems to learn from this. They react as if these are isolated cases. The
scientists themselves pretend that they are truth seekers above the fray, with
no thought of politics. It reminds me of news articles about fund raising by
the administration. In Washington all politicians in both parties spend most
of their time raising money. Everyone knows that. Reporters and Congressional
Committee members pretend they are shocked. Such hypocrites! Corruption in
Congress and in the academic science will never be cleaned up until we admit
that politicians and scientists are human beings. The rules they are expected
to follow are far too idealistic and unrealistic. The penalties for not
following the rules are nonexistent. It is a sham. The U.S. seems to be going
through a phase of setting draconian laws and then ignoring them. I don't know
what people are thinking when they try to stop 18 year old kids from drinking.
You can be married or drafted and killed in a war, but you aren't allowed to
have a beer?!? In North Carolina, a juvenile who buys cigarettes can be fined
$1,000; in Idaho he can be sentenced to six months in a detention center!

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 10:43:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07451;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:37:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:37:21 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:34:58 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0663$7c7f7a20$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ThRG3.0.Fq1.VB3aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13694
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Martin's suggestions welcome
>
>As Peter has pointed out, to do the measurements he has to convince his
>colleagues to donate their time. Presumabally this is best done by
>convincing them of the importance of their work.

Judging by the your posts and e-mail addresses you do get around, don't you?
Any kin to the Cheshire Cat?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Martin Sevior
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 10:48:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29030;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:44:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:44:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007801b0b5e3fdf43c [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971210100113.6150A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
References: <v03007800b0b334b27a22 [198.133.146.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:44:10 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"K-TGK3.0.V57.WI3aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13695
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim Ostrowski replied:
>
>    This is where I still have a problem. What difference does this make as
>    to  the  question  of  whether or not there is a delay time between the
>    modulation   and  modulation  detection  of  this  already  circulating
>    energy?
[snip]
>    Is it "cheating" somehow if I use a pre-established circulating  energy
>    pattern , alter (modulate) it , and look at the time coincidence of the
>    modulation  signal  transmission  /  reception , then derive the SIGNAL
>    VELOCITY by means of measuring the SIGNAL PATH LENGTH?

Now I have a better idea of what you are attempting.  If you mentioned it
before, I didn't get it.  My apologies.

If you can somehow pass the modulation of a pre-established mode at faster
than light, then I think that you would have something unusual and exciting.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 11:14:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14392;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:08:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:08:26 -0800
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:54:17 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: New book by Mizuno
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712111357_MC2-2B9F-EB89 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"xSYMt3.0.8W3.Ze3aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13698
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Tadahiko Mizuno (mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp) has written a book about
cold fusion:

T. Mizuno, "Kakuhenkan, jyouon kakuyuugou no shinjitsu [Nuclear Transmutation,
the Reality of Cold Fusion]," (Kougakusha, 1997), 230 pages, 23 references

It is written in a breezy style for the general reader, but it has a
surprising amount of technical detail. The bulk of it is about Mizuno's own
work and his collaboration with Oriani, but there is substantial information
about other people's work. The blurb on the back of the book lists the main
contents:

* The impact of the Fleischmann-Pons announcement

* Heat generation from electrolysis with palladium

* Cold fusion replications

* An underground laboratory experiment to detect neutrons

* Black precipitate [lit. "eduction" -- I had to look up the English!]

* How heat is detected 

* Proton conductors

* New trends from Russia and Ukraine

* Research is focused on the materials that take part in the reaction [i.e.
transmuted cathode material.]

* A promising theory from E. Conte [See references in endnote 12, on quantum
mechanics by biquarternions -- whatever that means]

* What is a hydrogen electrode reaction

* Fleischmann and Pons' mistake [They overestimated pressure within the
lattice. They claim it is 10^47 atmospheres, Mizuno cites Maoka & Enyo and
says it can only be 10^5 atm, and furthermore the D/Pd loading ratio can never
exceed 1.0. See p. 206]

* Lilies on the electrode [Yeah, lilies. See the SEM photos of erupted metal
on Ohmori's gold cathode. The photos are on page 209 and featured on the
cover. The erupted, frozen metal looks a bit like lilies. It contains gold
plus platinum, iron and other elements believed to be transmutations.]

* Enormous pressure generated on a microscopic scale

The book also has brief reviews of the ICCF conferences, a short description
of the SRI accident and what caused it, and a variety of other background and
historical information. It is copiously illustrated with many good
photographs, including a group of 19 color photos and graphs.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 11:14:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13815;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:07:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:07:39 -0800
Message-Id: <199712111906.OAA12209 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: The price of gold.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 14:14:40 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "VORTEX" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"jJlLg2.0.LN3.pd3aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13697
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


John Logajan wrote:

>You really want something of some rarity (so it can't be mass produced
>or faked) that gets around the need to trust the other guy.  Gold is
>a natural for this service.  It is relatively rare, and very durable.
>Consummable commodities serving as money tend to be very bulky.

I have recently been trying to conceive of items that would preserve 
their rarity for all time. I would not trust gold becuase if we cannot 
make it electro-alchemically, then with cheaper or free energy we'll be 
able to extract it from sea water with relative ease, as Jed reminds us. 
Original artwork and paintings are possibilities, but these are subject 
to vagaries of taste through the ages. The one item that will stay 
relatively rare and will likely preserve (nay, increase) their value are 
autographs of famous people. Once they are dead, no more or their 
signatures can be produced except by fakery. I have perused autograph 
catalogs in recent years -- it's fun to do if nothing else. It is amazing 
what the market demadns today for famous people's autographs. A. Lincoln 
runs in the several thousands of dollars. Ditto for Einstein, typically. 
The cheapest Orville Wright signature (on a check) I've seen is $495.00.

I've got the ultimate valuable autograph set: Fleischmann's and Pons' 
autographs on their 1989 paper (signed at the 1990 conference in SLC). 
This is probably a unique item. WHEN they are fully vindicated (yes, 
Barry and Scott, WHEN, not IF), this should be worth a few bucks. 

I wonder whether anyone else has ideas for more standard rare commodities 
than autographs?

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 11:14:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13197;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:04:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:04:49 -0800
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:01:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712111901.LAA17436 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control
Resent-Message-ID: <"KJPzo1.0.7E3.Fb3aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13696
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Frederick,

[some snippage of headers and such]
> Dan Quickert wrote:
>>Great. But there were others who gave as much as they could to the project,
>>spent much time and energy, did the experiments, discussed it, gave
>>constructive advice, and then believed in you enough to send in their
>>hard-earned money... what about us?
>
>Caveat Emptor?    :-)
>
>Regards,      Frederick

Yes, definitely. I *expected* risk when I sent my money. But I thought that
risk was taken by all involved. Point is, *if* devices are shipped it should
not just be to an elite group. Those that paid have at least as much moral
right, and greater legal right, to have the original agreement satisfied. I
will feel far more damaged if Greg ships only to a few than if he were to
ship to no one.

Dan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 12:42:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09252;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:32:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:32:48 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:32:38 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: DMEC research and control
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971211122811.1176B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"RF_zG.0.UG2.lt4aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13699
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

fro  Dilbert book, "Fugitive from the Cubicle Police", by Scott Adams
p. 213


      DOGBERT, VENTURE CAPITALIST

(Dogbert and Inventor, sitting at a table)

Dogbert:  I'll invest up to five million dollars if you'll agree to some
standard conditions...  I will be chairman of the board and own 99% of the
company.  You will work for free and wash my car twice a week. 

Inventor:   Can I mow your lawn instead of washing your car?

Dogbert:   You're a tough bargainer, but I prefer multimedia developers
for my gardening needs.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 13:01:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23817;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:54:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:54:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3490529E.630DD2B0 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:52:46 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Ten Rules
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8ci9E3.0.2q5.7C5aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13700
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All and G W,

These are extractions from my business life (most of I failed):

Rule 1:

  Never do business with someone that you not obsolutely trust.

Rule 2:

  It is not possible to do (good) business under suspection. 

Rule 3:

  If there is potential interest confict between partners, they could not be resolved.

Rule 4:

  If you see risks, they occurs. Because they are already exists.

Rule 5:
   
  In business and everywhere, who gain the power, use it.

Rule 6:

  It is not possible to set a permenant balance between financial power and technologic power. Money always win. 

Rule 7:

  Never give the controls.

Rule 8:

  Dont continue, if you feel the time is not running in your side. 

Rule 9:

  Everything is based on the irreversibility of the time. Not let the time run over you. Create your own time frame.

Rule 10:

Promises and future plans are always at future. Dont pay in advance.

* * *

See, I wrote exactly ten rules. Send me some money. :-)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 13:15:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16640;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:21 -0800
Message-ID: <01BD063E.BCF258E0.JoeC transmutation.com>
From: Joe Champion <JoeC transmutation.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: The Golden Rule
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:11:55 -0000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6WwQy.0.u34.0Q5aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13701
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Ye who makes their own gold can make their own Rules....


Joe Champion


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 14:23:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04097;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:11:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:11:36 -0800
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:23:17 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [GETTING OFF TOPIC] The price of gold.
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712111626_MC2-2BA3-804E compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"YIwUU.0.n_.LK6aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13702
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Gene writes:

     I have recently been trying to conceive of items that would preserve
     their rarity for all time. I would not trust gold because if we cannot
     make it electro-alchemically, then with cheaper or free energy we'll be
     able to extract it from sea water . . . Original artwork and paintings
     are possibilities, but these are subject to vagaries of taste through
     the ages. The one item that will stay relatively rare and will likely
     preserve (nay, increase) their value are autographs of famous people.

Things like art and autographs would not work because they are not uniform.
Lincoln's autograph is worth one amount, mine is worth another. Gold, on the
other hand, is uniform. Art and autographs are also out because you cannot dig
up more whenever you want. The supply is limited and unpredictable, whereas
there is no practical limit to the amount of gold available on earth.

Chocolate and marzipan are out too, for the reasons John Logajan mentioned.
Mainly because they don't keep. Rice, on the other hand, keeps for years. The
Japanese government has warehouses full of the stuff it cannot get rid of. An
"ever-full" granary might be a good basis of exchange. I like the idea of
money that you must spend before it rots and becomes worthless.

In "Imperial Earth" Arthur Clarke suggested that in the future money will be
backed by energy. Kilowatt hours will be the medium of exchange. I doubt it,
because I think energy will be too cheap to meter.

I believe that ultimately, progress will culminate in the invention of
something like the "replicator," described by Clarke in "Profiles of the
Future." This is a machine that can transmute elements and assemble atoms to
make a perfect copy of anything. Absolutely anything from a perfectly cooked
filet mignon to a ton of gold or a thousand perfect copies of the Mona Lisa.
Items will be stored in the machine's memory and produced on demand. Clarke
points out that when the machine is perfected it will be used to duplicate
itself, and we'll all have one. That will be the end of all scarcity. It will
render the concept of a "standard rare commodity" meaningless. It will mean
the end of economics, money, and work. It will also extinguish poverty,
wealth, materialism, acquisitiveness, and the craving to accumulate more and
more things. There will be no point to piling up goods in your house when you
can tell your robot servants to bring a perfect copy of any object
manufactured and scanned in the last thousand years.

The "replicator" is not a pipe dream. Machine tools and manufacturing
equipment is gradually evolving into a replicator. Tools are becoming more
generalized, more interchangeable. They are driving by computers instead of
special purpose gears, rods, and other hardware.  When IBM scientists arranged
individual atoms to spell out "IBM" that was the first step towards a machine
that builds things atom by atom. Of course we have no way to scan objects
today, and no way to store the data describing every atom in an object, but I
believe that if the human race survives someday we will have these things.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 14:46:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13425;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:40:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:40:38 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b5eeba91eb [199.237.131.222]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:42:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"UrpBY.0.gH3.al6aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13703
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>
>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?


The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
Calculating intial values:

a = 0.4181076 deg
s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3

Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):

Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*3*tan((s-a)/2))^0.5
Tan(E/4) = (2.995423301x10^-5)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = 5.473046045x10^-3
E/4 = 3.135793085x10^-1 deg.
E = 1.254317234 deg.

Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:

As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)

Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:

Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E

There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
Nt/2 spokes, therefore:

Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.254317234

Ns = 287 = maximum number of spokes

This is obviously wrong, because  you can get 861 in a single plane. This
is driving me lune-y.





Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 15:20:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18436;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:14:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:14:44 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The price of autographs
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:33:39 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971211231713462.AAA266 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"xUN93.0.xV4.WF7aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13704
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gene posted a neat note about the value of autographs as collectibles and a
kind of currency.

I have heard that Picasso wrote checks for everything, secure in the
knowledge that most of them would never be cashed, but kept for the
souvenir value of his signature. 

There exists another set of unique items of value, examples of fine
engraving and printing with subtle colors, each certified unique with its
own serial number. They are called dollar bills or pound notes. 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 15:31:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19670;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:21:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:21:52 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712112321.SAA24458 mercury.mv.net>
Subject: Re: [GETTING OFF TOPIC] The price of gold.
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 18:30:12 -0000
x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net
x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1
From: "E.F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "VORTEX" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Resent-Message-ID: <"uMHut3.0.Fp4.EM7aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13705
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed writes,


>The "replicator" is not a pipe dream. Machine tools and manufacturing
>equipment is gradually evolving into a replicator. Tools are becoming more
>generalized, more interchangeable. They are driving by computers instead of
>special purpose gears, rods, and other hardware.  When IBM scientists 
>arranged
>individual atoms to spell out "IBM" that was the first step towards a machine
>that builds things atom by atom. Of course we have no way to scan objects
>today, and no way to store the data describing every atom in an object, but I
>believe that if the human race survives someday we will have these things.

I think the ultimate replicator might well mark the end of the human 
race. Everyone could command their personal replicator to replicate 
anything -- including other human beings, no doubt (as long as they had 
been "scanned"). So, if someone wanted to have a famous movie star or any 
other person as a "throw-away"  love partner for the evening--or for many 
evenings, then one could. That would certainly lead to a slight breakdown 
in family life, not to mention the usual methods of biological 
replication  :)

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 15:32:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20731;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:29:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:29:29 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:06:30 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: The Golden Rule
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712111710_MC2-2BA4-85B8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Yn6Ge1.0.q35.NT7aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13706
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Joe Champion writes:

     Ye who makes their own gold can make their own Rules....

Until everyone else learns how to do it.

I hope you realize that, Joe! You are in for a disappointment otherwise. Back
when IBM was the only company that made a decent IBM PC compatible, they made
the rules and they made tons of money. But everyone soon learned to make PCs
and now IBM is minor player in that market. Ford owned the automobile business
until GM and the Japanese companies learned how to mass produce cars. With
gold, your moment of glory will be brief. The stuff has little intrinsic
value. It is good for circuit boards, filling teeth and jewelry, but we do not
need much for those purposes. Soon after you start making it, others will
learn how to make it, and then the value will drop to nothing. Governments
today spend vast sums of money hoarding gold and guarding it at places like
Fort Knox. When the value drops to $50 per ton governments will shrug their
shoulders, close down the depositories, and auction off the gold or dump it
into landfills. There will be a 100-year glut on the market.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 16:08:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26283;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:03:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:03:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:02:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712120002.QAA26182 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: [GETTING OFF TOPIC] The price of gold.
Resent-Message-ID: <"EJ6GR2.0.YQ6.8z7aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13707
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gene Mallove  wrote:
>Jed writes,
>>The "replicator" is not a pipe dream.[snip]
>>I believe that if the human race survives someday
>>we will have these things.
>
>I think the ultimate replicator might well mark the end of the human 
>race.
[snip]
>
>Gene

Relax, it isn't going to happen. The reason:  Anyone care to compute the
number of bits of information necessary to encode the composition, relative
position, and energy-states etc of all the bits of 'matter' in a human
being, or any other complex biological entity?

Dan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 16:30:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31910;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:19:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:19:25 -0800
From: Mwhite333 <Mwhite333 aol.com>
Message-ID: <2cc21a13.349080ee aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:10:20 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Smot kits
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1DtL13.0.Ro7.CC8aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13708
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Greg,

I've been watching the SMOT kit progress since April 1 and I would hate to see
it be all for nothing because everyone(Group members who have ordered the
device), run out of patience and like a set of dominos all concede to give up
together.
I want more than anything in the world to see another group member say that
they have received their SMOT and got it working for hours on end.

I too did some work similar to the RMOG about a year ago, you may all remember
my FDD1 project based on a floppy drive magnet, with ferrite coils around the
perimeter, and basically I said that if the resistance of the wire in the
field coils could be dropped low enough the motor would exceed unity.

The Searl project back over here in England has slowed right down owing to
lack of funding, and one of the team members showed great interest in the SMOT
kits and asked if they could manufacture them under licence from you if that
was possible.
The profits from doing this could provide funding for the Searl project.

Keep going Greg, not far now.

 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 16:44:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03778;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:40:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:40:44 -0800
Message-ID: <3490F5D4.7BB5 itl.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:29:08 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
References: <199712110321.VAA02193 mirage.skypoint.com> <348F661F.547D@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"j9NI.0.xw.BW8aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13709
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> Craig Haynie wrote:

<snip a logic matrix style analysis of Greg's behaviour>

	Is it possible Greg is working up to leaving a new version of the 
Orfyrreus' wheel legend? Even more likely is that he would like to be the 
new Fermat, leaving the equivalent of scribbled notes in the margin that 
he has "discovered a wonderful proof" etc shortly before disappearing 
from the scene. Fermat's last theorem generated 100's of 
mathematician-years of work before being finally proved recently (BTW,the 
proof cannot have been the one that Fermat claimed to have discovered). 
This would fit in very well with Greg's avowed wish to get every one 
experimenting to get replication. He has already said he hasn't quite 
revealed every detail of his techniques for commercial reasons. This 
could be to tantalise people enough to start a snowball of effort to 
chase a mirage.
	BTW, remember that Greg said, around the beginning of May this 
year, that he would prefer to have several hundred members of Vortex 
backing him with small amounts of money (to develop his ideas) rather 
than a big institutional investor??? Things seem to have changed.

Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 17:11:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05380;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:04:46 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:04:46 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:03:47 -0800
Message-Id: <199712120103.RAA28611 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Jed; Re: New book by Mizuno
Resent-Message-ID: <"HpYfx1.0.-J1.is8aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13710
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>To: Vortex
>
>Tadahiko Mizuno (mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp) has written a book about
>cold fusion:
>
>T. Mizuno, "Kakuhenkan, jyouon kakuyuugou no shinjitsu [Nuclear Transmutation,
>the Reality of Cold Fusion]," (Kougakusha, 1997), 230 pages, 23 references
>

Jed, Do you have the ISBN number for the book?

Ross

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 17:16:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09961;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:11:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:11:16 -0800
Message-ID: <3490AB5F.158F keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:11:27 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research
References: <199712110321.VAA02193 mirage.skypoint.com> <348F661F.547D@ix.netcom.com> <3490F5D4.7BB5@itl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NJtEF1.0.WR2.py8aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13711
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Nick!

Please, that is a stretch to even remotely compare Orffyreus with the 
SMOT/RMOG toys....Orffyreus machine was DEMONSTRATED to hundreds of 
people, doing real work...yes, he kept the secret hidden but it was 
tested and VERIFIED by others.....there is no comparison whatsoever....

Orffyreus machine SELF-RAN for two months, documented, sealed and guarded 
during that time....several tests of this nature, including lifting very 
heavy millstones....the book by Collins explains it all....wonderful 
research by Collins....

Let's not create another MRA legend...I still regret being involved with 
that...not so much how it was introduced and propagated, but that when it 
was PROVEN by many to be erroneous measurements, the inventors REFUSED to 
post an explanation of how the error occurred and some kind of apology to 
those who spent time and money..

With the TOD device (which preceded the MRA), the inventor, Lee Trippett, 
measured what he thought was o/u...took it to a local electrical engineer 
who was also puzzled..finally drove to California to show it to Walt 
Rosenthal who measured it with high speed test equipment...they found 
many high intensity spikes that averaged out (with slower equipment) to 
APPEAR to be o/u...

Lee, being the very honorable and honest guy that he is, posted an 
explanation of what was found and apologized for unintentionally 
misleading everyone.....a fine example which I think is WORTHY OF 
EMULATION elsewhere...hint, hint......seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 17:31:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13887;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:28:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:28:34 -0800
Message-Id: <349092FA.681AE569 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:27:22 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [GETTING VERY OFF TOPIC] The price of gold.
References: <199712112321.SAA24458 mercury.mv.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"aTUGf.0.pO3.1D9aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13712
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

E.F. Mallove wrote:
> 
> Jed writes,
> 
[snip]
> 
> I think the ultimate replicator might well mark the end of the human
> race. Everyone could command their personal replicator to replicate
> anything -- including other human beings, no doubt (as long as they had
> been "scanned"). So, if someone wanted to have a famous movie star or any
> other person as a "throw-away"  love partner for the evening--or for many
> evenings, then one could. That would certainly lead to a slight breakdown
> in family life, not to mention the usual methods of biological
> replication  :)
> 
> Gene

I don't think any achievement could not stop curiosity and discovery passion of the humans. Universe is enough large and very rich of surprising phenomena and mysteries will not disappoint any intelligent being dressed with unlimited technological capabil
ities.

Human mind, or generally, intellectual entities and civilizations of any kind should not be restricted to biological forms I think. 

I think all intellectual entities on the universe is some how interconnected in space and time. Only this way, the intelligence could have a significance against the limitless bigness of the universe (space and time wise).

In this perspective, we can transfer the importance and duty of the human race to more general and more continuous society in a cosmological scale. This is exactly one scale up of the indivudual-society concepts. Actually we need already such a model to u
nderstand the presence of the human race under our current knowledge of universe. It should be very optimistic to suggest the human race will endure for million or billion years stand alone, while is evolution is only take million years. These periods are
 obviously very brief on the cosmological scale. 

Life does only make sense on large scale if civilizations are heuristically or more systematically are contacting in time, and form a large network of intellectual life.

Next chapter is "Internet, the trouble free way to contact ETs". :-)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 17:40:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10666;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:34:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:34:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b632fc1f0d [199.237.131.237]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:35:56 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"cDd2.0.ac2.XI9aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13713
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>
>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?


The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
Calculating intial values:

a = 0.4181076 deg
s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3

Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):

Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(tan((s-a)/2))^3)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = (3.323141156x10^-11)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = 5.764669249x10^-6
E/4 = 3.302912183x10^-4 deg.
E = 1.321164873x10^-3 deg.

Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:

As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)

Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:

Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E

There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
Nt/2 spokes, therefore:

Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.321164873x10^-3

Ns = 27,248 = maximum number of spokes

Maybe right this time?  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 17:40:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11264;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34909524.E08530D5 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:36:36 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Teleportation is done. Next step is full replication!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"suOEk.0.ul2.TL9aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13714
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just in time! We dont have to wait to much for the replication. :-)



PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE                         
The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News
Number 350 December 10, 1997   by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben
Stein

QUANTUM TELEPORTATION has been experimentally
demonstrated by physicists at the University of Innsbruck (Anton
Zeilinger, 011-43-676-305-8608, anton.zeilinger  uibk.ac.at; Dik
Bouwmeester, Dik.Bouwmeester uibk.ac.at).  First proposed in
1993 by Charles Bennett of IBM (914-945-3118), quantum
teleportation allow physicists to take a photon (or any other
quantum-scale particle, such as an atom), and transfer its properties
(such as its polarization) to another photon--even if the two photons
are on opposite sides of the galaxy.  Note that this scheme
transports the particle's properties to the remote location and not the
particle itself. And as with Star Trek's Captain Kirk, whose body
is destroyed at the teleporter and reconstructed at his destination,
the state of the original photon must be destroyed to create an exact
reconstruction at the other end.  In the Innsbruck experiment, the
researchers create a pair of photons A and B that are quantum
mechanically "entangled": the polarization of each photon is in a
fuzzy, undetermined state, yet the two photons have a precisely
defined interrelationship.  If one photon is later measured to have,
say, a horizontal polarization, then the other photon must "collapse"
into the complementary state of vertical polarization.  In the
experiment, one of the entangled photons A arrives at an optical
device at the exact time as a "message" photon M whose
polarization state is to be teleported.  These two photons enter a
device where they become indistinguishable, thus effacing our
knowledge of M's polarization (the equivalent of destroying
Kirk).What the researchers have verified is that by ensuring that
M's polarization is complementary to A's, then B's polarization
would now have to assume the same value as M's. In other words,
although M and B have never been in contact, B has been imprinted
with M's polarization value, across the whole galaxy,
instantaneously. This does not mean that faster-than-light
information transfer has occurred. The people at the sending station
must still convey the fact that teleportation had been successful by
making a phone call or using some other light-speed or
sub-light-speed means of communication. While physicists don't
foresee the possibility of teleporting large-scale objects like humans,
this scheme will have uses in quantum computing and cryptography. 
(D. Bouwmeester et al., Nature, 11 Dec 1997; see also
www.aip.org/physnews/graphics) 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 18:41:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18093;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:35:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:35:06 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:37:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FTL signalling experiment
In-Reply-To: <348EF0E4.1003 interlaced.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971211180146.13996A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"hvwSr1.0.dQ4.OBAaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13715
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote:

> Jim Ostrowski wrote:
> > 
>  I  don't  think you can bitmask an isolated pulse.  You cannot call an
> >     isolated pulse  a  meaningful  transfer  of  information  if  it  isn't
> >     bitmasked  (precoded  somehow  as  to  it's  relation  to other pulses)
> > 
> >     Meaningful transfer of information requires  pre-coding/bitmasking  and
> >     is the criteria for FTL signalling that has always been demanded .
> > 
> 
> So, Jim, - Do you have the equipment to pulse-modulate the carrier with
> a random information stream?

The modulated carrier's frequency/amplitude drift evident on the scope
screenprint is just such a random  ("unpredictable") series of events that 
 is captured quite well with the equivalent time sampling scope . As I
pointed out to Michael , the waveform deviations from the "clean" waveform
evident on the analog scope would not be both analogous and time
coincident if they were not occurring simultaneously at both inputs.

I shall post the details of the Heath scope's sampling mechanism later
when I have time.


> How about a pulse generator that would
> send two information bits, either two pulses, or a single pulse
> determined by a random two-state switch?

I think the experiment proves the intended point as it stands ,Frank. 
But anyone who feels so inclined can do the experiments you suggest.



  One scope channel senses the
> outgoing and the other channel the incoming pulse.
> 
> Or, does this process exclude your concept? 

Not at all, I don't think.

 If so, how can you transmit
> some kind of info with the present setup?
> 

See the above. Actually the modulation frequesncy can be rocked manually
according to any kind of coding scheme (morse , binary , uniform
commercial , etc) you'd like , with interesting analogous , time
coincident patterns resulting on the Heath scope output. 


> Frank Stenger

How's Ball Lightning coming along ,Frank ? ready to try that green oak
fuse experiment yet ?

Jim O.

> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 19:06:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22431;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:01:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:01:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:55:40 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: [GETTING VERY OFF TOPIC] The price of gold.
In-Reply-To: <349092FA.681AE569 verisoft.com.tr>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971211215514.6758A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"zmkmQ1.0.KU5.VaAaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13716
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	DNA is a great replicatior.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 19:06:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00925;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:03:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:03:01 -0800
Message-ID: <34909BA9.1EAA earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:04:25 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: re Ucar: interconnection of all life
References: <199712112321.SAA24458 mercury.mv.net> <349092FA.681AE569@verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ULGFH1.0.NE.abAaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13717
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 11, 1997

Hamdi Ucar,    Indeed you are very right that, "...intellectual entities
on the universe is some how interconnected in space and time..."  A
genius, Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche in the Nyingma lineage of Tibetan
Buddhism, in "Time, Space, and Knowledge," (1977) and also, Jane
Roberts, a quite different source, in "Seth Speaks" (1972) both describe
that our linear social constructs of time and space are rude
approximations to the actual situation: an infinity of time streams,
spaces, levels, and reality systems, only a minute fraction of which are
organized in the ways that we consider to be "physical realities," and
all intimately, creatively interconnected.  Tulku comments succinctly,
"Any point can be reached and interacted with," and even more briefly,
"Intimacy IS."  These understandings can be verified by anyone who
chooses to intelligently, persistently, passionately, independently, and
openmindedly engage in subjective explorations into consciousness
itself.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 19:14:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02570;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:12:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:12:32 -0800
Message-ID: <336AA03E.1D52 mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:17:34 -0400
From: Drexler <nanotek mail.bcpl.lib.md.us>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [GETTING VERY OFF TOPIC]
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971211215514.6758A-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hscWR3.0.2e.TkAaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13719
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nanotechnology

http://nano.xerox.com/nano

2015!?!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 19:14:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02179;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:10:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:10:55 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <53e9cf0a.3490a8ac aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:59:52 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Blacklightpower News
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"bPmkH3.0.tX.ziAaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13718
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

All,

There is a new addition to the BLP site, a report by a energy consulting
firm, Technology Insights, 6540 Lusk Blvd, Suite C-102, San Diego
Ca,  92121, 619-455-9500.
This report was prepared in mid 1996 but does have some new
information I had not seen before. One is a tungsten powder cell.
It is a large (>100k)  html file so no need for a  pdf  file reader.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 20:10:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13057;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:06:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:06:17 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <a442fa15.3490b5d3 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:56:00 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Atomic Hydrogen Torch
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"WEVdu.0.xB3.uWBaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13720
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone have information (or where I can get info) on 
a device known as the atomic hydrogen torch?

My web searches have turned up nothing.

It's been around for many years and is used (I think) in
welding applications that require a very high temperature.
It is I believe a combination of an electric arc with H2 gas flow.

Thanks in advance.
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 22:30:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21634;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:54:29 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"EAyub3.0.yH5.PaDaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13721
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Gene Mallove writes:

     I think the ultimate replicator might well mark the end of the human
     race. Everyone could command their personal replicator to replicate
     anything -- including other human beings, no doubt (as long as they had
     been "scanned"). So, if someone wanted to have a famous movie star or
     any other person as a "throw-away"  love partner for the evening . . .

Nope. That wouldn't work. If you replicated a real person he or she would not
let you throw him away. He would fight you, or flee. The law would not let you
get away with it either. It would be murder. Now if someone invented a robot
that looked and acted exactly like a human being, *that* might end the human
race.


Dan Quickert writes:

     Relax, it isn't going to happen. The reason:  Anyone care to compute the
     number of bits of information necessary to encode the composition,
     relative position, and energy-states etc of all the bits of 'matter' in
     a human being, or any other complex biological entity?

The energy states in the brain might matter, but the rest of the body can be
averaged. All of the bits necessary to encode the composition of the human
body fit very nicely into the nucleus of one cell, in the DNA. What nature can
do well, man can learn to do better.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 22:32:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06730;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:25:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:25:51 -0800
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:54:39 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: New book by Mizuno
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E8 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"YmbgV.0.-e1.kZDaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13722
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The ISBN is 4-87593-214-6

The book is in Japanese. I am thinking of translating it, and maybe publishing
chapters serially in I.E. Mizuno expresses some outspoken opinions. He says
some the leading scientists in the field showed up at ICCF4 and "reported the
same experiments and the same results they reported at ICCF3, 2 and 1."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 22:46:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08650;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:44:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:44:59 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971212014548.006ae800 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:45:48 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"IXy-n.0.172.grDaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13723
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 10:54 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jed wrote:

>Dan Quickert writes:
>
>     Relax, it isn't going to happen. The reason:  Anyone care to compute the
>     number of bits of information necessary to encode the composition,
>     relative position, and energy-states etc of all the bits of 'matter' in
>     a human being, or any other complex biological entity?
>
>The energy states in the brain might matter, but the rest of the body can be
>averaged. All of the bits necessary to encode the composition of the human
>body fit very nicely into the nucleus of one cell, in the DNA. What nature
can
>do well, man can learn to do better.
>

 
  First, Dan's question was NOT answered.


  Second, also, I doubt that "All of the bits necessary to encode
the composition of the human body fit very nicely into 
the nucleus of one cell, in the DNA" as stated.


 The human being consists of differentiated cells assembled upon
a collagen structure which self assembles, and itself is composed of
electrets [each subunit, a trimer, of about ~30,000 debye electric 
dipole moment].  The cells extrude the trimer which self assembles
and upon which the nervous system "plates" out upon it, IMO
minimizing the electric field intensity (and thus electric field
energy of the system).  

 Furthermore, each cell contains other DNA beyond the nucleus 
(symbiotic mitochondria) which give each cell abilities far beyond
those of mere prokaryotes (without the mitochondrial DNA
which comes ONLY from one's mother's symbiotic mitochondria). 

 Thus, the final human body, is "greater" that which is in the DNA
in the nucleus of one cell.  Even without the impact of 
environment, learning, etc., the whole is greater than the sum 
of its parts, and certainly more than the DNA in the nucleus
of one cell.

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 22:55:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24055;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:52:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:52:59 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712120652.AAA06753 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Dec 11, 97 10:54:29 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:52:07 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SoxmV2.0.jt5.9zDaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13724
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed wrote:
> get away with it either. It would be murder. Now if someone invented a robot
> that looked and acted exactly like a human being, *that* might end the human
> race.

Actually, anything the acts like a human being -- is a human being.
The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 23:12:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12424;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:08:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:08:19 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:43:31 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd06b8$7f81bd00$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"HHklS2.0.b13.VBEaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13725
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of
Tensors


>At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at
a
>>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>>
>>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?
>
>
>The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
>separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
>relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
>Calculating intial values:
>
>a = 0.4181076 deg
>s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
>s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
>Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
>Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3
>
>Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
>which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):
>
>Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*3*tan((s-a)/2))^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = (2.995423301x10^-5)^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = 5.473046045x10^-3
>E/4 = 3.135793085x10^-1 deg.
>E = 1.254317234 deg.
>
>Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
>E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
>lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:
>
>As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)
>
>Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:
>
>Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E
>
>There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
>each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
>Nt/2 spokes, therefore:
>
>Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.254317234
>
>Ns = 287 = maximum number of spokes
>
>This is obviously wrong, because  you can get 861 in a single plane. This
>is driving me lune-y.

You want to watch that,Horace, Full Moon coming up Saturday night.  :-)

All I can come up with, since I can close my eyes and visualize only about 5
objects at the most
and these are grouped 3 and 2 (except for cuties in Bikinis) is that if you
rotate the 861 spoke wheel about an arbitrary axis you come up with 861^2
(7.4137E5)radial lines coming out of the dimensionless point in space thus
that many planes displaced by 0.4181xx degrees from each other.

Could that dimensionless point be the "Singularity" or the
Planck Radius (1.0E-35 meters)meaning that somewhere down there Nature has
lower limits for particles or photons?

Regards,     Frederick

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 23:28:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20201;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:26:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:26:36 -0800
Message-ID: <3490E904.33C8 skypoint.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:34:28 -0600
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CBFR
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wxocg1.0.Zx4.gSEaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13726
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The Colliding Beam Fusion Reactor web site at UC Irving now has
the 1997 Science article on-line.  My website has a link to
it, url below.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 11 23:55:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23590;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:50:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:50:11 -0800
Message-ID: <3490EC89.A265DB42 ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:49:30 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
References: <199712120652.AAA06753 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"_zSmK.0.Wm5.ooEaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13727
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm sure you would like to believe that 'robot boy', But it is only a alive if it
is truly Conscious.
Do you really believe that the mind is only a good computer program?

THINK about it ;^)

John Berry


John Logajan wrote:

> Actually, anything that acts like a human being -- is a human being.
> The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
> means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 00:02:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00793;
	Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:57:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:57:21 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:56:27 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712120756.XAA02076 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch
Resent-Message-ID: <"8Sd_32.0.FC.VvEaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13728
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vince-

This sounds similar to "Brown's Gas" and what William Rhodes discovered back
in the '60's, atomic hydrogen/oxygen gas production.  There are some units
out there.  You could give Dr. Rhodes a call at:

war123 aztec.asu.edu

George Wiseman is currently building commercial units.

wiseman eagle-research.com

I hope this helps,

Regards,   Michael Randall

At 10:56 PM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote:
>Does anyone have information (or where I can get info) on 
>a device known as the atomic hydrogen torch?
>
>My web searches have turned up nothing.
>
>It's been around for many years and is used (I think) in
>welding applications that require a very high temperature.
>It is I believe a combination of an electric arc with H2 gas flow.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Vince
>Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 02:58:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09077;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:52:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 02:52:10 -0800
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3491076B.2DDEDB84 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:44:11 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: DMEC Research & Control
References: <199712111901.LAA17436 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"K47B_3.0.lD2.PTHaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13729
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dan Quickert wrote:

 "I will feel far more damaged if Greg ships
 only to a few than if he were to ship to no one.
 
 Dan"

Yes, this is Christmas.  I really do want my toy.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 05:29:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29479;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:22:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:22:27 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:19:45 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0700$9e271dc0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ER6_O1.0.XC7.IgJaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13730
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of
Tensors


>At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at
a
>>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>>
>>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?
>
>
>The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
>separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
>relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
>Calculating intial values:
>
>a = 0.4181076 deg
>s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
>s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
>Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
>Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3
>
>Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
>which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):
>
>Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(tan((s-a)/2))^3)^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = (3.323141156x10^-11)^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = 5.764669249x10^-6
>E/4 = 3.302912183x10^-4 deg.
>E = 1.321164873x10^-3 deg.
>
>Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
>E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
>lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:
>
>As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)
>
>Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:
>
>Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E
>
>There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
>each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
>Nt/2 spokes, therefore:
>
>Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.321164873x10^-3
>
>Ns = 27,248 = maximum number of spokes
>
>Maybe right this time?  8^)

Looks more like it, Horace.

With 1.0E8 lines/meter^2 at a weber/meter^2 (1 Tesla) you need lots of
lines.   :-)

Regards,       Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 05:51:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28684;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:48:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:48:21 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Whose Tritium?
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:45:11 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0704$2ac418c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uq1Rp1.0.407.Z2Kaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13731
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A news item this morning reports the presence of Tritium
in a couple of aquifers near Los Alamos.

The Valle Grande volcano cauldera where some geothermal test wells some
10,000 ft deep are also in the vicinity of these aquifers.

Natural or man-generated Tritium?   :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 06:14:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06608;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:11:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:11:12 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:10:36 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971212091036_-2027049703 mrin51.mx>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Flow Calorimetry & XSH
Resent-Message-ID: <"0Wbtu.0.Ad1._NKaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13733
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It's been mentioned more than once that flow calorimetry sometimes inhibits
the production of excess heat.

Who has reported that (besides the NHE lab)?

What explanations have been offered for the inhibition?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 06:37:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10616;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:33:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:33:08 -0800
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34914AE8.BAD53CB6 ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:32:08 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex Discusion Group <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: News - Morning Edition    12/11/97]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E771BEAE0EDDD4D7273DB1F0"
Resent-Message-ID: <"491Xp1.0.ib2.YiKaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13734
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------E771BEAE0EDDD4D7273DB1F0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

*** Tiny, insect-like satellites proposed for space

Swarms of tiny, insect-like satellites weighing 1/2 ounce apiece
could provide a cheap new alternative for space exploration,
scientists said this week. Researchers have designed new
"microsatellites" with control systems based on simple animal neurons
which could make complex, bulky spacecraft obsolete. The little
satellites, measuring just 3 inches across, could be sent on missions
to measure solar wind and map different parts of the Earth. They
could prove more reliable than conventional satellites because their
simple robotic controllers have been built to survive in almost any
environment. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370994-af7

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.
--------------E771BEAE0EDDD4D7273DB1F0
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from nucleus.ecg.csg.mot.com (nucleus.ecg.csg.mot.com [144.188.211.7]) by me525.ecg.csg.mot.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28973 for <johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com>; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:44 -0600 (CST)
Received: from mothost.mot.com by nucleus.ecg.csg.mot.com with ESMTP
	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA263151683; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:43 -0600
Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by mothost.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id DAA23729 for <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:42 -0600 (CST)
Received: from sender1.lodo.infobeat.com (sender1.lodo.infobeat.com [208.146.68.33]) by motgate.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id DAA04563 for <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:14:36 -0600 (CST)
Received: from sender1.lodo.in.merc.com (news-errors mx.lodo.infobeat.com)
	by sender1.lodo.in.merc.com (version 3.32, queueup copyright InfoBeat, Inc. 1997)
	with stdio id MOTCSGEAAFFX19973; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:14:19 MST
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client sender1.lodo.infobeat.com, sender news-errors mx.lodo.infobeat.com )
To: johnste nucleus.ecg.csg.mot.com
Subject: News - Morning Edition    12/11/97
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Testfile: merc-news3-text-johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
From: InfoBeat <news infobeat.com>
Priority: normal
Message-Id: <JOB.3.0.0.0.0.0.queueup.19973.12111997021419.3404 sender1.lodo.in.merc.com>
Errors-To: news-errors mx.lodo.infobeat.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:14:19 MST
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Morning Edition for Thursday, December 11, 1997 

*******************************************************************
          CreateDocumentPrintWalkToPrinterWalkToFaxMachine
           WaitInLineSendFaxRetrySendFaxAgainWaitSomeMore
         WaitForConfirmationWalkBackToDeskDoItAllOverAgain
                                 OR
       Fax From Your Desk.  Stay at Your Desk. Free Software!
         FAXIT! from http://www.intergram.com/infobeat.htm
*******************************************************************

U.S. Business and Financial News
--------------------------------

   *** Microsoft concerned about Japan?
   *** U.S. stocks tumble on JP Morgan earnings warning
   *** Merrill, Hambrecht put talks on hold
   *** Oxford expects to report a 4Q loss of $120M
   *** AEA Investors backs out of deal for Corning unit
   *** Tricon plans to close hundreds of Pizza Huts

Science and Medicine
--------------------

   *** Heart associations warns on new diet drug
   *** Doctors tie genetic defect to asthma, allegies
   *** FDA approves new osteoporosis drug for women
   *** FDA approves new migraine nose spray
   *** Daily drink helps those at risk for heart disease
   *** Tiny, insect-like satellites proposed for space

Technology
----------

   *** Compaq, IBM, HP, Dell to keep hold on PC sales - IDC
   *** Oracle shares plunge on bleak earnings outlook
   *** Lucent buys Prominet Corp for $200M
   *** Sun to launch Activator software - WSJ
   *** Wei to use Internet in fight for China democracy
   *** 8 nations agree on steps to fight computer crime

The Environment
---------------

   *** Kyoto accord key turning point on climate
   *** Asian smog blowing to U.S. West Coast - study
   *** Calif. wants toughest truck exhaust rules in U.S
   *** Biodiversity highly concentrated, says report
   *** Physicist eyes monster towers to scrub air clean
   *** Conservation group launches bid to save tapirs


----------------------------------------------------------------------
                   U.S. Business and Financial News
----------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Microsoft concerned about Japan?

Microsoft is feeling the impact of a sharp slowdown in computer sales
in Japan, once one of the company's fastest-growing markets, Chief
Operating Officer Bob Herbold said. He did not give specifics,
although he said there have been no material changes to the company's
earnings outlook since mid-September, when executives gave detailed
guidance to financial analysts. On average the analysts expect
Microsoft to earn 82 cents a share for the current quarter, according
to First Call, compared with 57 cents a year ago.

*** U.S. stocks tumble on JP Morgan earnings warning

U.S. stocks were sent reeling Wednesday after one of Wall Street's
most prominent investment banking firms became the latest casualty of
Asia's economic turmoil. The Dow Jones industrial average ended down
71 points at 7979. Investment bankers J.P. Morgan Co touched off a
storm of selling after warning that "unsettled market conditions
globally" have hurt its fourth quarter earnings, a reference to the
financial turmoil in Asia. In the broader market, declining issues
beat advances by a two to one margin on active volume of 606 million
shares on the New York Stock Exchange. The Nasdaq composite index
lost 24 points at 1597 after sinking 31 points Tuesday. The S&P 500
fell six points to 970. The 30-year Treasury added 1/2 to yield
6.08%. The dollar slipped to 1.7872 marks and 129.36 yen. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370715-cd3

*** Merrill, Hambrecht put talks on hold

Merrill Lynch and Hambrecht & Quist have put their merger talks on
"indefinite hold," due to the sharp run-up in H&Q's stock price, the
Wall Street Journal reported. The newspaper said that the talks were
put on hold on Monday as the high stock price of Hambrecht & Quist, a
technology investment bank, would make Merrill Lynch's acquisition of
the company highly expensive. The newspaper said Merrill Lynch was
concerned about being perceived as paying an overly steep price for
the investment bank.

*** Oxford expects to report a 4Q loss of $120M

Oxford Health Plans, disclosing that its financial problems are even
more serious than it indicated six weeks ago, said it expects to
report a fourth quarter loss of about $120 million, resulting in a
sizable loss for the full year. The loss, caused by a new demand from
New York State regulators that the HMO must add $164 million to its
medical-claims reserves, is the latest financial blow to hit Oxford
in a computer system debacle that obscured key indicators of its
flagging financial health. (Dow Jones)

*** AEA Investors backs out of deal for Corning unit

AEA Investors Inc. scrapped its offer to acquire 89% of Corning
Inc.'s consumer housewares business for $779 million, citing worries
about soft sales. Corning said AEA decided to cancel the transaction,
citing the potential for lost sales in 1998 due to the impact of
Asian currency markets. Corning said the consumer housewares business
is "very healthy," with year-to-date operating profits up more than
50% through November. The company said the business's new products
for 1998 have been well received by customers. (Dow Jones)

*** Tricon plans to close hundreds of Pizza Huts

Tricon Global Restaurants, which gained independence just two months
ago, said it would take a $425 million charge against earnings as it
closes several hundred Pizza Huts across the U.S. Some Pizza Huts and
KFC stores abroad also will be shuttered. The charge, which will be
taken in the current 4Q and will be equal to $2.79 a share, will
result in a loss for Tricon for the full year, a spokesman confirmed.
Through the first nine months, on a pro forma basis, Tricon said it
earned $277 million, or $1.80 a share. (Dow Jones)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
                         Science and Medicine
----------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Heart associations warns on new diet drug

Doctors should take care in prescribing a new diet drug, Meridia,
because of the risk of high blood pressure in patients, the American
Heart Association said Wednesday. The organization urged caution in
using the drug, known generically as sibutramine, because of health
scares that caused other drugs to be pulled off the market. "Although
early trials of the drug showed it to be modestly effective, the drug
raised concerns because in some individuals it elevates blood
pressure," Dr. Robert Eckel of the University of Colorado, vice
chairman of the AHA's nutrition committee, said in a statement. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6369720-39c

*** Doctors tie genetic defect to asthma, allegies

Researchers in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine report they
have discovered a chunk of genetic material that, when altered,
predisposes a person to asthma and other types of allergic diseases.
The alteration, in which a single change occurs in a protein that
floats on the surface of cells and senses the chemical interleukin-4,
apparently causes the cells to overreact, sparking a cascade that
triggers an allergic reaction. Researchers estimate 40% of the U.S.
population has an inherited predisposition toward allergies. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6368832-8c0

*** FDA approves new osteoporosis drug for women

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a new osteoporosis
drug Wednesday that some doctors say offers the benefits of estrogen
without many of the drawbacks. The drug, Eli Lilly and Co's Evista,
is approved for preventing osteoporosis in post-menopausal women -
the group most at risk of the bone-thinning disease. Known
generically as raloxifene, Evista belongs to a new class of drugs
known as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), which mimic
the effects of estrogen in some tissues but not in others. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6368146-183

*** FDA approves new migraine nose spray

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved a new
nose-spray formulation of Novartis Pharmaceuticals' Migranal migraine
medication, the company said Wednesday. It said the new nasal spray,
which would be available by prescription in January, will be the
second migraine nose-spray to hit the U.S. market this year.
Glaxo-Wellcome got approval for its drug Imitrex last month.
Migranal, known generically as dihydroergotamine, offers pain relief
as fast as 30 minutes after treatment, the East Hanover, N.J.-based
company said. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6368908-2f1

*** Daily drink helps those at risk for heart disease

An alcoholic drink each day can be beneficial to one's health, but
only if the person is over 59 or already has signs of heart disease,
according to a study in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine.
The new study, based on an American Cancer Society poll of nearly 1.2
million Americans begun in 1982, confirms past research suggesting
that moderate consumption can have some health benefits. Overall, the
risk of death from heart disease was 30-40% lower among men and women
who consumed at least one drink per day, according to researchers.
See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6368759-511

*** Tiny, insect-like satellites proposed for space

Swarms of tiny, insect-like satellites weighing 1/2 ounce apiece
could provide a cheap new alternative for space exploration,
scientists said this week. Researchers have designed new
"microsatellites" with control systems based on simple animal neurons
which could make complex, bulky spacecraft obsolete. The little
satellites, measuring just 3 inches across, could be sent on missions
to measure solar wind and map different parts of the Earth. They
could prove more reliable than conventional satellites because their
simple robotic controllers have been built to survive in almost any
environment. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370994-af7

----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Technology
----------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Compaq, IBM, HP, Dell to keep hold on PC sales - IDC

Forecasting 15% personal computer sales growth during the fourth
quarter, International Data Corp said Tuesday the industry will
continue to be dominated by the "big four" vendors. These companies -
Compaq, IBM, Hewlett-Packard and Dell - had more than 40% of U.S.
sales volume and 35% of sales worldwide during the third quarter,
according to IDC. IDC said it believes Dell is set for growth through
its recent move into the personal computer server and workstation
markets, and through opportunities in the portable and consumer
segments of the market. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6357826-d14

*** Oracle shares plunge on bleak earnings outlook

Oracle Corp. stock tumbled 29% in heavy trading Tuesday after the
database software company said it faced at least two quarters of
slowing profit growth because of sluggish business in Asia. More
worrisome, Oracle, the world's second-largest software company, may
face several quarters of slow revenue growth. Analysts said most
companies that would need Oracle's high-end database and business
software already have a copy. "We've said they face market
saturation," said Melissa Eisenstat at Oppenheimer & Co. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6359649-7f9

*** Lucent buys Prominet Corp for $200M

Lucent Technologies Inc said it will acquire Prominet Corp, a
privately-held start-up developer of local area network (LAN)
switching equipment, for about $200 million in stock. Prominet
develops switches that connect PCs, workstations and servers using
Gigabit Ethernet and integrated routing, referred to as Layer2/Layer
3 capabilities in the data networking industry. Menachem Abraham,
president and CEO of Prominet, will join Lucent as president, Gigabit
Ethernet Switching Products, in its Data Networking Systems group,
Lucent said. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6367490-9dd

*** Sun to launch Activator software - WSJ

Sun Microsystems is expected to launch software called "Activator"
Wednesday that it says will compensate for any incompatibilities
between Microsoft Corp's Internet Explorer Web browser and programs
written in the "official" Java language, the Wall Street Journal
reports. Activator would circumvent Microsoft's version of Java,
thwarting what Sun claims are Microsoft's attempts to limit the
spread of Sun's universal programming language, the newspaper said in
its electronic edition Wednesday. Java-based programs, which can be
delivered via the Internet, are supposed to run on most type of
computer, overcoming incompatability problems, the newspaper noted.
See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6364486-590

*** Wei to use Internet in fight for China democracy

3 weeks after his release from a Chinese jail, dissident Wei
Jingsheng said Wednesday the Internet presented many opportunities
for him to continue his fight to bring democracy to China. Wei said
he believed most Chinese people supported democracy, but many were
afraid to discuss their position for fear of Communist reprisals.
Because China's leaders kept a tight lid on protests or emerging
resistance, Wei predicted any change would come suddenly since one
could not see a movement building gradually. Wei, a political
prisoner for all but 6 months of the past 18 years, was released by
China on Nov. 16. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6373344-471

*** 8 nations agree on steps to fight computer crime

Eight major industrialized nations have agreed on steps to fight
international computer crimes, Attorney General Janet Reno said
Wednesday. After the first meeting of interior and justice ministers
from Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the
United States on this topic, Reno said they reached agreement to
better combat "international high-tech and computer-related crime."
The nations agreed to a program of specific actions aimed at
improving the ability to investigate and prosecute such crimes and to
make sure "no safe havens" exist for computer criminals. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6369903-9c9

----------------------------------------------------------------------
                           The Environment
----------------------------------------------------------------------

*** Kyoto accord key turning point on climate

U.S. leaders hailed an agreement on curbing emissions, but said more
work was needed to bring developing nations into the fold. President
Clinton and Vice President Al Gore issued separate statements after
159 nations at a UN conference in Kyoto, Japan, clinched a deal to
cut emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases. Gore, who addressed
the conference Monday and surprised delegates with his pledge
Washington would be more flexible in reaching its objective, said the
deal was a "solid foundation" for further efforts to protect the
environment, while creating new opportunities for economic growth.
See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6374980-c2c
UN climate text alters draft emissions cuts, See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6373003-e66
U.S. regrets not winning poor nation commitments, See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6375263-9d2
Kyoto deal drop in the global warming ocean, See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6373191-ff6

*** Asian smog blowing to U.S. West Coast - study

Smog belching from the factories of East Asia is wafting across the
Pacific and is increasingly to blame for poor air quality in western
U.S. cities, according to a new study released Wednesday. Dan Jaffe,
associate professor of science, technology and the environment at the
University of Washington said: "Our studies show that Asian pollution
is affecting much of the U.S. West Coast, with Washington and Oregon
affected slightly more because of wind patterns." Jaffe's study
indicated that about 10% of the ozone and other pollutants found in
the air along the U.S. West Coast blew over from Asia. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370188-f17

*** Calif. wants toughest truck exhaust rules in U.S

California air quality officials want to apply the nation's toughest
exhaust rules to sport utility vehicles, which emit three times as
much smog as passenger cars. In a plan unveiled Tuesday, officials of
the California Air Resources Board would require automakers to
install more advanced smog-control equipment in minivans, light
trucks and sport utility vehicles starting in 2004. Board officials,
who regulate the nation's dirtiest air, said advances in truck
technology and the growing popularity of sport utilities sparked the
plan. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370582-12b

*** Biodiversity highly concentrated, says report

Seventeen countries contain more than two-thirds of the planet's
biological wealth and diversity, the environmental group Conservation
International said in a report released Wednesday. Led by Brazil, the
most biodiverse of all, the 17 countries are concentrated mostly in
the tropics of South America and Southeast Asia. All have coastlines
and only one of them, South Africa, does not have rain forests.
Conservation International ranked the countries by the number of
species of mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds and higher plants
that live there and by the number of those species which are endemic
- occur only in that country. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6370547-08e

*** Physicist eyes monster towers to scrub air clean

The dirty air of Los Angeles would literally get a bath if one
scientist's billion-dollar dream of space-age sky "scrapers" comes
true. Los Alamos National Laboratory physicist Mel Prueitt has
patented designs to build monster steel towers that he reckons would
reduce pollution in greater Los Angeles by one half. Costing $10
million each, Prueitt says Los Angeles would need 90 of the 60-story
masts with fluted skirts that would scrub the air clean of
particulates and some noxious gases. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6369488-f5d

*** Conservation group launches bid to save tapirs

The World Conservation Union (IUCN) launched a campaign Wednesday to
save the tapir, known as the jungle horse or mountain cow in Latin
America, from extinction due to over-hunting and loss of its natural
habitat. The group called for measures including a stop to hunting,
effective management of tapir populations in protected areas, and
controlled trade in live tapirs and tapir meat and parts. Tapirs, a
species of which is also native to South East Asia, are hunted for
their meat and pelts. Some societies believe tapir parts have
medicinal properties or act as an aphrodisiac, according to the
group. See
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=6365804-a45




-------------------------------------------------------------
Get the Most Out of InfoBeat News! Upgrade to Outlook Express at
http://www.oe.infobeat.com/text/?email=johnste ecg.csg.mot.com.

If you'd like to subscribe to other InfoBeat products or
modify your current settings, visit our web site at
http://www.infobeat.com.


Copyright 1997 InfoBeat, Inc. All rights reserved. 
InfoBeat Services are for personal use only. Commercial
use or redistribution in any form, printed or electronic is
prohibited.
-------------------------------------------------------------



--------------E771BEAE0EDDD4D7273DB1F0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 06:52:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04799;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34914E4D.121B55DA ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:46:37 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Ten Rules
References: <3490529E.630DD2B0 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"68dce1.0.sA1.uwKaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13735
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> These are extractions from my business life (most of I failed):

Ten rules? Try reading some of the the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition:
<http://www.bazza.com/sj/trek/ferengi.html>

Nothing like a little Star Trek to brighten the day....  8^)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 09:07:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08780;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:01:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:01:56 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007804b0b71dcdaec1 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <199712111005_MC2-2B9A-EBBD compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:02:03 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Magnet therapy in N.Y. Times
Resent-Message-ID: <"RDdoP1.0.592.2uMaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13736
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

[snip]
>     . . .  After the investigators identified the source of the pain and the
>     pressed on it, the 39 women and 11 men in the study graded the pain on
>     scale of 0 (none) to 10 (worst). . . . The 29 who received an active
>     magnet reported a reduction in pain to 4.4 from 9.6, compared with
>     smaller decline to 8.4 from 9.5 among the 21 treated with a sham magnet.

A sample size of 50 means that 1 sigma uncertainty (if Gaussian statistics
apply) is +/- 7 people.   29 vs 21 is a difference of about 1 sigma.  Can't
claim to be much different than random chance.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 10:02:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18357;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:53:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:53:22 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971212125335.00a7b8a0 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"59CHH.0.kU4.GeNaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13737
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:54 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Dan Quickert writes:
>
>     Relax, it isn't going to happen. The reason:  Anyone care to compute the
>     number of bits of information necessary to encode the composition,
>     relative position, and energy-states etc of all the bits of 'matter' in
>     a human being, or any other complex biological entity?
 
    Scientists are already investigating (and demonstrating in the lab)
storing
several hundred bits of information in single atom.  This is done by
putting the
atom in a superposition of quantum states, and then extracting the information
without collapsing the state.  Yes, it can be done.  Oh, by the way, the
art of
creating a particle which is a "perfect" copy of another particle some
distance away is called teleportation.  A teleported particle copies not
only the "normal" information such as charge, spin, and momentum, but the
full quantum state.  A hot topic in physics right now.

    Of course current methods of information storage have a way to go to get
there to hundreds of bits per atom.  Modern DRAMs use almost one hundred
electrons to store a bit of information, and the best magnetic media use
thousands of atoms per bit. ;-)  On the other hand, atom per bit densities
have been shown in the laboratory.  (Moving atoms around on a crystal
surface.  You get more than one bit per "bead" since you can use different
types of atom.  But you have to count the atoms that make up the surface,
so one bit per atom.)

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 10:28:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22893;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:20:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:20:54 -0800
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:14:58 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Rules (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971212131414.9983B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VWgX53.0.4b5._1Oaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13738
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


1.Once you have their money ... never give it back. 
   3.Never pay more for an acquisition than you have to. 
   6.Never allow family to stand in the way of opportunity. 
   7.Keep your ears open. 
   8.Small print leads to large risk. 
   9.Opportunity plus instinct equals profit. 
  10.Greed is eternal. 
  13.Anything worth doing is worth doing for money. 
  16.A deal is a deal ... until a better one comes along. 
  17.A contract is a contract is a contract (but only between Ferengi). 
  18.A Ferengi without profit is no Ferengi at all. 
  19.Satisfaction is not guaranteed. 
  21.Never place friendship above profit. 
  22.A wise man can hear profit in the wind. 
  27.There's nothing more dangerous than an honest businessman. 
  31.Never make fun of a Ferengi's mother ... insult something he cares
about instead. 
  33.It never hurts to suck up to the boss. 
  34.Peace is good for business. 
  35.War is good for business. 
  40.She can touch your lobes but never your latinum. 
  41.Profit is its own reward. 
  44.Never confuse wisdom with luck. 
  47.Don't trust a man wearing a better suit than your own. 
  48.The bigger the smile, the sharper the knife. 
  52.Never ask when you can take. 
  57.Good customers are as rare as latinum -- treasure them. 
  58.There is no substitute for success. 
  59.Free advice is seldom cheap. 
  60.Keep your lies consistent. 
  62.The riskier the road, the greater the profit. 
  65.Win or lose, there's always Hyperian beetle snuff. 
  75.Home is where the heart is ... but the stars are made of latinum. 
  76.Every once in a while, declare peace. If confuses the hell out of
your enemies. 
  79.Beware of the Vulcan greed for knowledge. 
  82.The flimsier the product, the higher the price. 
  85.Never let the competition know what you're thinking. 
  89.Ask not what your profits can do for you, but what you can do for
your profits. 
  94.Females and finances don't mix. 
  97.Enough ... is never enough. 
  99.Trust is the biggest liability of all. 
 102.Nature decays, but latinum lasts forever. 
 104.Faith moves mountains ... of inventory. 
 106.There is no honour in poverty. 
 109.Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack. 
 111.Treat people in your debt like family ... exploit them. 
 112.Never have sex with the boss's sister. 
 113.Always have sex with the boss. 
 117.You can't free a fish from water. 
 121.Everything is for sale, even friendship. 
 123.Even a blind man can recognize the glow of latinum. 
 139.Wives serve, brothers inherit. 
 141.Only fools pay retail. 
 144.There's nothing wrong with charity ... as long as it winds up in
your pocket. 
 162.Even in the worst of times someone turns a profit. 
 177.Know your enemies ... but do business with them always. 
 181.Not even dishonesty can tarnish the shine of profit. 
 189.Let others keep their reputation. You keep their money. 
 192.Never cheat a Klingon ... unless you're sure you can get away with
it. 
 194.It's always good business to know about new customers before they
walk in the door. 
 202.The justification for profit is profit. 
 203.New customers are like razortoothed grubworms. They can be
succulent, but sometimes
     they can bite back. 
 211.Employees are rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to
step on them. 
 214.Never begin a negotiation on an empty stomach. 
 218.Always know what you're buying. 
 223.Beware the man who doesn't make time for oo-mox. 
 229.Latinum lasts longer than lust. 
 236.You can't buy fate. 
 239.Never be afraid to mislabel a product. 
 242.More is good ... all is better. 
 255.A wife is a luxury ... a smart accountant is a necessity. 
 261.A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience. 
 263.Never allow doubt to tarnish your love of latinum. 
 266.When in doubt, lie. 
 284.Deep down everyone's a Ferengi. 
 285.No good deed ever goes unpunished. 
 286.[Quark's rule] When Morn leaves, it's all over.


	This is more rules tha Hamdi.... so send Hamdi more money!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 13:08:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24385;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:04:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:04:11 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712122104.PAA18556 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <3490EC89.A265DB42 ihug.co.nz> from John Berry at "Dec 12, 97 08:49:30 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:04:02 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZLFYN3.0.wy5.9RQaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13740
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Oops, sorry for the previous scrambled message -- hit the wrong key again.
 
> John Logajan wrote:
> > Actually, anything that acts like a human being -- is a human being.
> > The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
> > means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)

John Berry wrote:
> I'm sure you would like to believe that 'robot boy', But it is only a
>  alive if it is truly Conscious.

Ah, but there is plenty of wiggle room in "acts like a human being."

I'll simply assert, in a lawyerly manner, that anything that is not
conscious cannot act like a human being. :-)

> Do you really believe that the mind is only a good computer program?

It is more and more evident that the human mind works because it
is a bad computer.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 13:14:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23514;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:58:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:58:14 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712122058.OAA18394 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <3490EC89.A265DB42 ihug.co.nz> from John Berry at "Dec 12, 97 08:49:30 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:06 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4fVW2.0.Kl5.aLQaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13739
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> I'm sure you would like to believe that 'robot boy', But it is only a alive if it
> is truly Conscious.
> Do you really believe that the mind is only a good computer program?
> 
> THINK about it ;^)
> 
> John Berry
> 
> 
> John Logajan wrote:
> 
> > Actually, anything that acts like a human being -- is a human being.
> > The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
> > means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)
> 
> 


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 13:41:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00971;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:34:56 -0800
Message-ID: <3491A035.5BF earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:36:05 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Britz: chemical heating calorimeter checks
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"lyQOk.0.3F.-tQaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13741
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz nospam.har.har>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Murray: re calorimetry; Carrell, Rothwell, Little
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:21:00 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971212091442.2968B-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <348D74FF.132C earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <348D74FF.132C earthlink.net>

On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

(I hope I'm not attributing wrongly; these postings are a bit confusing)

[...] 
> Shelton's critique has raised some fundamental issues about reliable
> calorimetry, and his suggestion about using precise exothermic chemical
> reactions to calibrate is certainly a fresh idea.  He describes getting

"fresh"? Maybe, on a geological time scale. When I did microcalorimetry 30
years ago, we used the very well characterised H+ + OH- reaction as a final
check of our calorimeters, which themselves had electrical heating as a heat
standard; just to make sure we got the right answers. Even then, this was as
old as the hills. It would be good if people started experiments by checking
the literature first; this often avoids reinvention of the wheel.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 13:59:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05993;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:54:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:54:00 -0800
Message-ID: <3491A498.35F earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:54:48 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        Lee_Hansen byu.edu, miles@nhelab.aie.or.jp,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        droege fnal.gov, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov, shkedi@bose.com
Subject: Blue: CR calorimetry errors
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"9Twuc3.0.MT1.s9Raq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13742
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 12, 1997

Dear all, here are some comments by Dick Blue on Dec. 19, 1997:

The Shelton-Jones paper does, however, document some of these error
sources.  Indeed some of these same error sources have been discussed in
papers by people who claim success with CF.

As for the rebuttals, Jed Rothwell gets wrapped up in the question
of what constitutes a Dewar flask.  If Pons and Fleischmann modified
a Dewar flask, is that no longer a Dewar flask?  Who cares!  The
real question is whether said flask has thermal characteristics that
would introduce the kinds of potential errors described by Shelton.

The concerns raised by Shelton include the time constant(s) of the
system, the sensitivity to variations of heat distribution within
the cell, and the sensitivity to placement of the temperature probe
within the cell.

The reason, I think, for the suggestion that calibration of the cell
should include a known chemical process as the heat source is that it
may more closely approximate the distributed heat source being measured.
Of course even that distribution can be changed during electrolysis by
changes in the resistive losses as opposed to what goes into reversible
chemical reactions that may actually, at some time later, reverse.
(Recall the heat bursts that have been involved in many of these
measurements.)

Demonstrations of the effects of temperature probe placement are
seen in the CF literature.  Bush and Miles, for example, published
data in which the cell was equipped with two probes which clearly
did not track very well.  I suspect they learned a lesson from that
and stopped the practice of using two probes.  Of course the
real killer in this catagory is the Pons and Fleischmann "boiling
water" experiments in which the cell is susposed to have boiled
dry without there being any observable effect on the probe temperature
for quite some time after it lost thermal contact with the electrolyte!

Bush and Miles actual reported 6 different calibrations which, as is
expected, did not agree.  Rather then recognize a clear problem that
this indicates with their technique they simply averaged the 6 values
and reduced the sigma for the calibration accordingly.  It's like
measuring a distance with 6 cheap meter sticks and assuming that the
average meter stick is better as a matter of faith.  If you remove
this "lie" about the sigma for the calibraion the excess heat they
claimed to observe sort of fades into the noise.

Mike Carrol's comment about the time constants in the Arata measurements
is, I believe, off the mark.  There are effects in the calorimetry
that don't just average out because the entire experiment runs for
very many time constants.  It has to do with how the temperature at
the probe tracks the actual heat flow out of the calorimeter.  Let's
see Mike demonstrate that a lag between instantaneous heat output
and the temperature signal does not result in a systematic error.
My guess is that this is true only for a system that is totally linear
with a calibration constant independent of all the physical variables
in the system.

Basically we know that the calorimetry can be done more precisely than
is typical of most CF measurements.  What Jed and Mike have never
explained is why an increase in the precision of the calorimeter leads
to a reduction in the size of the observed effect.  The only response
of the advocates to experiments such as those by Tom Droege is to
assert that they did not use "the correct protocol."  Of course
the correctness remains to be defined when the results are in hand.

Now just suppose there were a way to determine the CF reaction rate
and power output independent of all calorimetry.  Then, by actual,
measurement one can determine the precision of the calorimetry.
I would suggest that this has actually been done and replicated many
times.

The last comment suggests, that as Blue commented in a post on
sci.physics.fusion today, that if there are no nuclear reactions in cold
fusion cells, then any excess heat results are actually measurements of
calorimetry errors.

As one, Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 15:01:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17942;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:53:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:53:04 -0800
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:48:00 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Blue: CR calorimetry errors
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712121752_MC2-2BC6-BEB3 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"k43LA1.0.6O4.D1Saq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13743
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Here are some comments that may be coming from Richard Blue and may be coming
from Rich Murray. I can't tell. If they are Blue's comments I would ask Rich
Murray to let Blue speak for himself here. Anyway, I'll address a few of them:

     What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase in the
     precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
     observed effect.

We don't have to explain that. It isn't true. Blue has been repeating that for
years, as if repeating nonsense will make it the truth.


     The only response of the advocates to experiments such as those by Tom
     Droege is to assert that they did not use "the correct protocol."  Of
     course the correctness remains to be defined when the results are in
     hand.

The correct protocols are defined in the electrochemical literature predating
cold fusion, and in papers written after 1989 specifically about cold fusion.
Blue, Droege and Murray have never read these papers. They claim no such
papers exists. They think that if they refuse to look at the literature it
will disappear. Droege's cells contained filth, cat hairs and dead insects,
according to his collaborator who disassembled them after each experimental
run. Such ingredients are definitely outside of the correct protocol.


     Now just suppose there were a way to determine the CF reaction rate and
     power output independent of all calorimetry.  Then, by actual,
     measurement one can determine the precision of the calorimetry. I would
     suggest that this has actually been done and replicated many times.

Of course it has. CF cells produce helium, tritium, neutrons and
transmutation. These are actual measure of nuclear reactions independent of
calorimetry. That was the main point of the Arata paper.


     The last comment suggests, that as Blue commented in a post on
     sci.physics.fusion today, that if there are no nuclear reactions in cold
     fusion cells, then any excess heat results are actually measurements of
     calorimetry errors.

Blue pretends that the helium, tritium, neutrons and transmutations do not
exist. He thinks that if he pretends, and wishes hard enough, the results will
go away. To summarize, Blue's tactics are:

1. Repeat a lie over and over again, so that gullible people like Murray will
read it, believe it, and spam it on Internet and here on Vortex.

2. Pretend that there are no protocols, no electrochemical textbooks, and that
nobody knows how to do CF.

3. Deny that calorimetry works, and pretend there is no nuclear evidence to
bolster it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 16:17:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04558;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:12:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:12:03 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971212180404.006f1930 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:04:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: new toy at EarthTech!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"sNcHx.0.-61.GBTaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13744
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts and salutations:

For some time now, we have been in search of a decent power analyzer to
measure electrical input power for the wide variety of power-balance
experiments that are our usual fare around here.  

In the past, we have made good use of our TEK720 digital oscilloscope which
can monitor both voltage and current and multiply them in realtime to
produce a power trace.  However, the TEK lacks somewhat in accuracy
especially at higher voltages and frequencies.

The most demanding application we've encountered thus far is the
measurement of power delivered to an ultrasonic transducer.  These
transducers typically operate at 20 kHz, several hundred milliamps, several
hundred volts, and with a power factor that ranges from 0.3 to 0.7
depending upon the load that is being driven.

We discovered that the TEK720 could only get within 10% relative on this
application!  As luck would have it, the TEK read LOW by 10% so we went
through a semi-euphoric period of thinking that our experiments were
producing 10% excess heat before we discovered the problem....8(

We evaluated two power analyzers made by Valhalla.  The D6335 (~$2000) was
relatively poor, overestimating the power by 10-20%.  The D6100 (~$14,000)
was quite good but the price was way too high.

This Wed we took delivery of a brand-new Clarke-Hess Model 2330.  At $3600,
it was a bargain compared to the Valhalla D6100 and it appears to work just
as well or better.

The following table compares each power analyzer to our calorimeter on the
ultrasonic transducer power measurement.  In the column labelled Calor. are
the power values (in watts) measured by the calorimeter, a high-power
water-flow calorimeter system (that has not been written up in any of our
reports yet).  In the other columns are the ratios of each instrument's
reading to the calorimeter value. 

Calor.      CH 2330   TEK720    D6100    D6335
49.7          1.01			
94.7          0.99			
95.9          1.00			
165.2         1.00			
178.0         1.00			
55.6          1.01			
113.7         1.00			
55.6          1.01			
30.6          1.00			
60.7          0.96      0.87		
86.0          0.99      0.91		
60.2                    0.87     1.01     1.13
61.7                    0.90     1.00     1.12
84.9                    0.93     1.02     1.11
72.9                    0.89     0.99     1.19

It feels a little odd to be comparing these power analyzers TO our
calorimeter...but that's the only "yardstick" we have in this situation.
Probably the small deviations you see in the CH 2330 and D6100 columns from
1.00 are more the fault of the calorimeter...not the power analyzer. 

Unfortunately the D6000 instruments were not present at the same time as
the CH 2330 but the same calorimeter has been used throughout.  We have
developed quite a high level of confidence in this calorimeter and believe
its accuracy to be around +/- 1% relative.

Clarke-Hess is a great outfit.  When you call them up, you get to talk to
Mr. Clarke himself...the guy that designed the thing! (when I called
Valhalla they WOULD NOT let me speak to their engineers!).  Even the CH
2330 instruction manual is a real prize.  It doesn't have any gratuitous
"white space" and it discusses theory of operation and errors and it even
has a complete set of schematics and a parts list.

The Clarke-Hess 2330 is a welcome addition to our growing arsenal of
equipment for accurate power-balance measurements.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 16:21:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05912;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:20:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:20:03 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712130019.SAA22799 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: new toy at EarthTech!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971212180404.006f1930 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Dec 12, 97 06:04:04 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:19:56 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"49w9X1.0.IS1.nITaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13745
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
> transducers typically operate at 20 kHz, several hundred milliamps, several
> hundred volts, and with a power factor that ranges from 0.3 to 0.7
> depending upon the load that is being driven.
> 
> We discovered that the TEK720 could only get within 10% relative on this
> application!  As luck would have it, the TEK read LOW by 10% so we went
> through a semi-euphoric period of thinking that our experiments were
> producing 10% excess heat before we discovered the problem....8(

A problem Tom Droege predicted about measurements of Sonofusion.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 16:41:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07923;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:36:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:36:18 -0800
From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
Message-ID: <4c6d441.3491d78b aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:16:27 EST
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: Spelve aol.com, 101347.3305@compuserve.com, sturrock@flare.stanford.edu,
        jmb cs.su.oz.au, bracewell@nova.stanford.edu, Geosas@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neutrons from arc welders
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"L8n5s3.0.ix1.1YTaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13746
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I have just returned from 2 weeks holiday.  Before going
I wrote to the manufacturers of the welding rods used in
my experiments, asking if they could give details of the
materials used in the flux, and if they could account for
the slight radioactivity that I observed, and its increase
over a few days after welding.

I have received the following reply dated 25th November:

<quote>

Dear Sir,

Firstly I had better explain that Welding Rods Ltd was 
bought out by Lincoln Electric some 9 years ago, hence
the different name.

I cannot claim to have any knowledge of nuclear reactions 
within an arc.  I have never thought of it and as far as I am
aware neither has anyone else.

WR X21 weld metal contains Hydrogen that is soluble in the
molten metal, approximately 30 mls of Hydrogen per 100g of 
weld metal.  Once the weld has solidified this Hydrogen is
slowly released.  It can take up to a week to completely diffuse
from the weld.  Could this have some influence on your readings?
This is not unique to WR X21, all weld metal contains some
Hydrogen but some types more than others.

There are no isotopes deliberately added to the flux, however,
as the flux is primarily made up of minerals I would not exclude
the possibility that there is a presence.  This type of flux contains,
in descending order.
Rutile (95% TiO2)
Ferro-Manganese (70% Mn 30% Fe)
Cellulose
Sodium Silicate
Potassium Silicate
Silica
Alumino Silicates (such as Mica, Felspar)

The specifications we receive from our suppliers never quote
radioactivity but they never exclude it either.

I have been trying to think of anyone who could supply any
information but I do not know of any one person who could
provide.

Yours truly, 
[signed] Alan Mayfield, Technical Manager
Lincoln Electric (UK) Limited
Mansfield Road, Aston,
Sheffield S26 2BS
Tel. 0114-287-2401  fax -287-2582

<end quote>

Can anyone find out if any of the materials mentioned
might be radioactive?  The time given for the hydrogen
to diffuse out is in line with my observations of the slight
increase in radioactivity over such periods.  I could ask
them to supply rods with extremely high and extremely
low hydrogen levels.  Any further suggestions of a
constructive nature?  No Blue/Murray-type diatribes
please.

George.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 17:14:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14743;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:08:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:08:47 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <d0442680.3491dcb2 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:53:24 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"jTl9E.0.Hc3.T0Uaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13747
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-12 03:01:37 EST, you write:

<< I hope this helps,
 
 Regards,   Michael Randall >>

I was looking for writeups on the theory and an explaination on 
how the torch operates.
This is old stuff as i remember reading about it more than 20 yrs ago.

Vince

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 19:42:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06920;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:37:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:37:13 -0800
From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
Message-ID: <90474376.349202af aol.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:36:12 EST
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: mwhitten cyllene.uwa.edu.au, viv@ictus.demon.co.uk,
        bracewell nova.stanford.edu, Spelve@aol.com,
        101347.3305 compuserve.com, marcus@vml.u-net.com, aman@sonic.net,
        connex compuserve.com, rpb@nimbus.anu.edu.au, jmb@cs.su.oz.au,
        dgilad bgumail.bgu.ac.il, MAINUNO@aol.com, fulmar@btinternet.com,
        ralph.leishman email.tory.org.uk, pcl@sable.ox.ac.uk,
        alford dial.pipex.com, charles@crjsbath.demon.co.uk,
        boardmanb aw-el.com, Philigeor@aol.com, bjs.co.ltd@dial.pipex.com,
        ncd1 st-andrews.ac.uk, WildDive@aol.com, james@jmenterp.demon.co.uk,
        Rjevans6 aol.com, anne.baxter@zetnet.co.uk,
        michael.hughes pentacom.co.uk, steve@balogh.demon.co.uk,
        dtletters telegraph.co.uk
Subject: Dangers of potassium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"vEDjA1.0.zh1.dBWaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13748
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Prime Minister,

I have been conducting scientific experiments which involve
measuring the radioactivity in welds on steel, using electric
arc welding, and have obtained some interesting results.

Having recently been informed that the flux coating
of welding rods contains (inter alia) potassium silicate,
I was reminded that natural potassium is somewhat radioactive.
The isotope 40K has a half-life of about 1.277E9 years, and
emits gamma rays and other radiation with energies up to
1.46 MeV.  This is sufficient to cause some damage to human
and other tissues, especially our vital DNA.

Having to hand an unopened plastic container with 500 grams
of anhydrous potassium carbonate, I placed it on my Geiger
counter and obtained counts of over 200/minute, while the
local background is around 30/min.  So clearly the potassium
silicate content of the welding rods' flux coating must
account for some of the radioactivity observed in my welds.
The potassium carbonate was supplied by Surechem Products
Ltd., Needham Market, Suffolk.  I should add that the readings
were obtained through the thickness of the stout plastic
container, which would intercept a large proportion of the
harmful radiation.

In view of your obvious concern for our nation's health, in
that you have chosen to ban the sale of all cattle-meat on
the bone in Britain, and are contemplating a similar ban on
sheep-meat, I must urge you to do likewise with any food-
stuffs containing this highly dangerous element potassium.

Yours etc., George Sassoon, Lochbuie, Isle of Mull, PA62 6AA

PS not sent to TONY.BLAIR poptel.org.uk:  I had no idea that
the radioactivity of natural potassium was so high.  With luck we
can get a good food panic out of this and ridicule the meat-on-the
bone scares.  Hopefully also, they will fail to realise that potassium
is essential for the correct function of our nervous systems. Geo.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 19:52:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21754;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:46:53 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:46:53 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Blue & Murray: CF calorimetry errors
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:40:06 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971213034929079.AAA183 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"5bjvy.0.qJ5.iKWaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13749
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From Rich Murray:

> Dec. 12, 1997
> Dear all, here are some comments by Dick Blue on Dec. 19, 1997:
<snip>> 
> Mike Carrol's comment about the time constants in the Arata measurements
> is, I believe, off the mark.  There are effects in the calorimetry
> that don't just average out because the entire experiment runs for
> very many time constants. 

Let's be scientific and specific, Rich. Precisely what "effects don't
average out"? It seems that you are adamantly insisting that the variations
seen in Fig. 8 absolutely must be due to calorimetry errors and not the
representation of a varying process going on inside the cathode capsule. 

> It has to do with how the temperature at
> the probe tracks the actual heat flow out of the calorimeter

What probe are you referring to? Are you again forgetting that Fig 8 is
based on delta T measurements of the inlet and outlet temperatures of the
water flowing though the cooling coil? 
Fig 5 shows a thermocouple probe inside the cathode capsule, but there is
no evidence that its reading plays any part in the excess heat measurement.
The delta T measurements is exactly the actual heat flow out of the
calorimeter. 
 .
>  Let's see Mike demonstrate that a lag between instantaneous heat output
> and the temperature signal does not result in a systematic error.

Such a demonstration is not necessary and is again a case of misdirection.
Rich is refusing to look at the essence of the paper, which is the
integrated energy output of the cathode over a period of hundreds or
thousands of hours, correlated with the QMS evidence of the accumulation of
nuclear ash, namely 4He and 3He, within the cathode material. Any time lag
between the production of heat within the cathode and an increase in the
outlet temperature, integrated over the given time intervals, is not a
source of error. 

The very nature of the data in Fig 8 and Fig 9 shows plainly that the time
constant of the entire cell is small with respect to the time period of the
experiment. Rich adamantly insists that this variation is noise from the
calorimetry -- at least he desperately hopes this is so. Yet I have shown
that the S/N ratio, based on the calibration procedure, is not a
contributor to the general aspect of the data. 

But let us discuss the time constant of the A&Z experiment. We don't know
the exact measurements, but I asked Russ George, who has seen the A&Z cell,
and he gave me the following information: 

gggggggggggggggggggggg
His DS cathodes are a bit more
than a cm in diameter and more than 10cm in length. They sit in a sealed
vessel containing  the electrolyte which in turn is immersed fully in a
bath.
The bath has the cooling coil in it which is  1/4in glass tube six inches
tall
with many turns. There are many thermocouples at various places in the 
experiment including inside the cathode. The whole thing is contained in a 
thoroughly insulated sealed box. The room is climate controlled and never
more 
than a degree or two. Data goes onto a chart recorder continuously on very 
frequent intervals (every five minutes or so). Calibration is with a Joule 
heater and via electrochemistry when the cell is not producing heat
gggggggggggggggggggggggg

This is somewhat different than Fig 5, which suggests that the cooling coil
sits inside the electrolyte, but the essence is the same. The cathode is
immersed in the electrolyte, the electrolyte cell is sealed, and immersed
in a bath containing the circulating cooling fluid, all inside a heavily
insulated box, effectively but not literally a Dewar flask. Convection will
occur in both fluids, providing effective mixing and heat transfer from the
capsule to the cooling water. 

We don't know the quantity of liquids in the baths, or the flow rate in the
cooling coil, so we can't calculate everything from first principles. We do
know that the input power is about 130 watts, so the water flow has to be
great enough to dissipate that heat and prevent boiling. 

However, we do not have to know these things, for there is positive and
direct evidence in the data itself. Figs 8 & 9 show direct evidence of the
relation of the thermal time constant of the cell to the experiment
duration. 

Russ said the temperature measurements are made every five minutes or so,
or 12 times/hr. In Fig 9, the electrolysis power is turned on and off
several times. In each case, the excess heat jumps almost instantaneously
as the power is turned on, effectively within the five minute interval
between temperature measurements. When the power is turned off, there is an
exponential decline, which can be understood as the exhaustion of reactions
as the influx of deuterons to the cathode is cut off. Thus the time
constant of the cell is of the order of a few minutes, and the time scale
of the experiment hundreds of hours. 

All the evidence is there in the report, yet Rich continues to quote
irrelevant references without understanding the data in front of him. 

> My guess is that this is true only for a system that is totally linear
> with a calibration constant independent of all the physical variables
> in the system.

Rich hopes again, but he does not show how the calibration constant can
vary in a closed cell. The discussions about changes in the cell constant
apply to open cells where the liquid can escape. That does not happen in
the A&Z cell. All he can do is issue another cloud of speculation. 
 
> Basically we know that the calorimetry can be done more precisely than
> is typical of most CF measurements. 

So? Misdirection again. The precision of measurement is related to the
magnitude of the effect to be observed. If a CF experiment produces a very
feeble result, as some of the early ones did, then high precision is indeed
needed. But when the effect is large, as in the case of the CETI power
cells, or the P&F boiloff, then less precision is needed. 

> What Jed and Mike have never
> explained is why an increase in the precision of the calorimeter leads
> to a reduction in the size of the observed effect.  

This is again misdirection. I have discussed only the A&Z experiment, but
Rich keeps mixing this with other notions about other experiments. We must
be specific, and remain specific. Not being specific is smoke and mirrors
and misdirection. I have not seen the McKubre report, but high precision
calorimetery was used and the report affirmed P&F with high sigma. While
Rich requested ordering information, I see no evidence that he procured and
read this report. 

The only response
> of the advocates to experiments such as those by Tom Droege is to
> assert that they did not use "the correct protocol."  Of course
> the correctness remains to be defined when the results are in hand.

Unless one refuses to acknowledge any positive results. Rich critiques
positive reports and quotes negative generalities without analysis. 

> Now just suppose there were a way to determine the CF reaction rate
> and power output independent of all calorimetry.  Then, by actual,
> measurement one can determine the precision of the calorimetry.
> I would suggest that this has actually been done and replicated many
> times.

In other words, there is no such thing as a CF reaction. All is error. 

> 
> The last comment suggests, that as Blue commented in a post on
> sci.physics.fusion today, that if there are no nuclear reactions in cold
> fusion cells, then any excess heat results are actually measurements of
> calorimetry errors.

But what about the nuclear ash found in the A&Z cell?

Smoke and mirrors and misdirection. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 20:18:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24123;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:14:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:14:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971212221334.006b46e8 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:13:34 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Blue & Murray: CF calorimetry errors
In-Reply-To: <19971213034929079.AAA183 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-I3tL.0.qu5.DkWaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13750
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 11:40 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

>Let's be scientific and specific, Rich....
>What probe are you referring to?....
>Such a demonstration is not necessary.....
>All the evidence is there in the report, yet Rich continues to quote
>irrelevant references without understanding the data in front of him. 
>Rich hopes again, but he does not show how the calibration constant can
>vary in a closed cell.
>Smoke and mirrors and misdirection. 

Rich!  Mike has produced some produce really credible-sounding rebuttals to
your challenges.  Please respond as directly and concisely as possible.  I
think we're getting somewhere and it would be really nice to settle
something for once...no?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 20:48:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14922;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:43:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:43:40 -0800
Message-ID: <349210F5.AD36A6FB ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:37:10 +1300
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Neutrons from arc welders
References: <4c6d441.3491d78b aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qFybi2.0.4f3.x9Xaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13751
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

There are some books that claim that ALL atoms below the atomic number of
19 are transmutable with relativly low energies, mabey that is what you
are seeing?


Geosas wrote:

> There are no isotopes deliberately added to the flux, however,
> as the flux is primarily made up of minerals I would not exclude
> the possibility that there is a presence.  This type of flux contains,
> in descending order.
> Rutile (95% TiO2)
> Ferro-Manganese (70% Mn 30% Fe)
> Cellulose
> Sodium Silicate
> Potassium Silicate
> Silica
> Alumino Silicates (such as Mica, Felspar)
>
>
> Can anyone find out if any of the materials mentioned
> might be radioactive?  The time given for the hydrogen
> to diffuse out is in line with my observations of the slight
> increase in radioactivity over such periods.  I could ask
> them to supply rods with extremely high and extremely
> low hydrogen levels.  Any further suggestions of a
> constructive nature?  No Blue/Murray-type diatribes
> please.
>
> George.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 21:21:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20478;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:15:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:15:52 -0800
Message-ID: <34920C41.3726 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:17:05 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        droege fnal.gov, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        rgerorge hooked.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@onramp.net, design73@aol.com,
        dennis wazoo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        shkedi bose.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com,
        jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.edu,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu
Subject: Murray: re Carrell: re: Blue & Murray: CF calorimetry errors
References: <19971213034929079.AAA183 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yRp-G3.0.d_4.5eXaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13752
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 12, 1997

Dear all,  Mike Carrel has missed the detail that the post is all
written by Dick Blue on Dec. 10, except for a final comment by me.

I don't know enough about all the studies criticized by Blue to fairly
judge his comments, but I figured that the community of readers would
answer him well.  I am very glad that Russ George [rgeorge hooked.net]
has described the Arata & Zhang experiment in more detail, which
apparently is changed somewhat from the set-up described in their
report. Is he going to carry out a replication?  I hope that if he
should ever find the 20-25% excess power with an input power of 130 W,
for months at a time, that Arata & Zhang report, that he will speedily
have such a paragon tested by Mallove's crew and by Scott Little of
EarthTech, with full, immediate uncensored disclosure of results on the
Net and in Infinite Energy.

In the meanwhile, can we have all details about Arata & Zhang's cell and
calorimetry?  We've got a productive debate going now about technical
issues in calorimetry.  It is to everyone's benefit to feed this
dialogue with facts.  Is there any way to get the details of Arata &
Zhang's cell and calorimetry out on the table?  Would they publish this
in the next issue of Infinite Energy?  If the low energy nuclear
transmutation in Pd of deuterium into He-4 and He-3 turns out to be
verified fact, then very careful attention to all the details will be
essential to win over the minds of the Order of the Tortoise, and then
the wider scientific community.

I commend Mike Carrell for his dedication to discussing the details
under question, although admittedly he feels frustrated by my inability
to agree that the details of the Arata & Zhang experiment so far
published are complete and sufficient enough to establish conviction
that the results are right.

He measurements have been the bane of cold fusion experiments since the
1920's: certainly it is vital for the Arata & Zhang paper to be
discussed by experts, publicly and quickly, and to focus on repliction.
Also, would Arata & Zhang be willing to supply some of their used,
unopened Pd-black cathodes to be analyzed by other laboratories?

I am adding the post by Mike Carrell, after my sign-off.

As one,  Rich Murray 

>From Mike Carrell [mikec snip.net], Dec. 12, 1997:

>From Rich Murray:

> Dec. 12, 1997
> Dear all, here are some comments by Dick Blue on Dec. 19, 1997:
<snip>> 
> Mike Carrol's comment about the time constants in the Arata measurements  is, I believe, off the mark.  There are effects in the calorimetry  that don't just average out because the entire experiment runs for  very many time constants. 

Let's be scientific and specific, Rich. Precisely what "effects don't
average out"? It seems that you are adamantly insisting that the
variations seen in Fig. 8 absolutely must be due to calorimetry errors
and not the representation of a varying process going on inside the
cathode capsule. 

> It has to do with how the temperature at
> the probe tracks the actual heat flow out of the calorimeter

What probe are you referring to? Are you again forgetting that Fig 8 is
based on delta T measurements of the inlet and outlet temperatures of
the water flowing though the cooling coil? 
Fig 5 shows a thermocouple probe inside the cathode capsule, but there
is no evidence that its reading plays any part in the excess heat
measurement. The delta T measurements is exactly the actual heat flow
out of the calorimeter. 
 .
>  Let's see Mike demonstrate that a lag between instantaneous heat output  and the temperature signal does not result in a systematic error.

Such a demonstration is not necessary and is again a case of
misdirection. Rich is refusing to look at the essence of the paper,
which is the integrated energy output of the cathode over a period of
hundreds or thousands of hours, correlated with the QMS evidence of the
accumulation of nuclear ash, namely 4He and 3He, within the cathode
material. Any time lag between the production of heat within the cathode
and an increase in the outlet temperature, integrated over the given
time intervals, is not a source of error. 

The very nature of the data in Fig 8 and Fig 9 shows plainly that the
time constant of the entire cell is small with respect to the time
period of the experiment. Rich adamantly insists that this variation is
noise from the calorimetry -- at least he desperately hopes this is so.
Yet I have shown that the S/N ratio, based on the calibration procedure,
is not a contributor to the general aspect of the data. 

But let us discuss the time constant of the A&Z experiment. We don't
know the exact measurements, but I asked Russ George, who has seen the
A&Z cell, and he gave me the following information: 

gggggggggggggggggggggg
His DS cathodes are a bit more
than a cm in diameter and more than 10cm in length. They sit in a sealed
vessel containing  the electrolyte which in turn is immersed fully in a
bath. The bath has the cooling coil in it which is  1/4in glass tube six
inches tall with many turns. There are many thermocouples at various
places in the experiment including inside the cathode. The whole thing
is contained in a thoroughly insulated sealed box. The room is climate
controlled and never more than a degree or two. Data goes onto a chart
recorder continuously on very frequent intervals (every five minutes or
so). Calibration is with a Joule heater and via electrochemistry when
the cell is not producing heat.
gggggggggggggggggggggggg

This is somewhat different than Fig 5, which suggests that the cooling
coil sits inside the electrolyte, but the essence is the same. The
cathode is immersed in the electrolyte, the electrolyte cell is sealed,
and immersed in a bath containing the circulating cooling fluid, all
inside a heavily insulated box, effectively but not literally a Dewar
flask. Convection will occur in both fluids, providing effective mixing
and heat transfer from the capsule to the cooling water. 

We don't know the quantity of liquids in the baths, or the flow rate in
the cooling coil, so we can't calculate everything from first
principles. We do know that the input power is about 130 watts, so the
water flow has to be great enough to dissipate that heat and prevent
boiling. 

However, we do not have to know these things, for there is positive and
direct evidence in the data itself. Figs 8 & 9 show direct evidence of
the relation of the thermal time constant of the cell to the experiment
duration. 

Russ said the temperature measurements are made every five minutes or
so, or 12 times/hr. In Fig 9, the electrolysis power is turned on and
off several times. In each case, the excess heat jumps almost
instantaneously as the power is turned on, effectively within the five
minute interval between temperature measurements. When the power is
turned off, there is an exponential decline, which can be understood as
the exhaustion of reactions as the influx of deuterons to the cathode is
cut off. Thus the time constant of the cell is of the order of a few
minutes, and the time scale of the experiment hundreds of hours. 

All the evidence is there in the report, yet Rich continues to quote
irrelevant references without understanding the data in front of him. 

> My guess is that this is true only for a system that is totally linear
> with a calibration constant independent of all the physical variables
> in the system.

Rich hopes again, but he does not show how the calibration constant can
vary in a closed cell. The discussions about changes in the cell
constant apply to open cells where the liquid can escape. That does not
happen in the A&Z cell. All he can do is issue another cloud of
speculation. 
 
> Basically we know that the calorimetry can be done more precisely than
> is typical of most CF measurements. 

So? Misdirection again. The precision of measurement is related to the
magnitude of the effect to be observed. If a CF experiment produces a
very feeble result, as some of the early ones did, then high precision
is indeed needed. But when the effect is large, as in the case of the
CETI power cells, or the P&F boiloff, then less precision is needed. 

> What Jed and Mike have never  explained is why an increase in the precision of the calorimeter leads  to a reduction in the size of the observed effect.  

This is again misdirection. I have discussed only the A&Z experiment,
but Rich keeps mixing this with other notions about other experiments.
We must be specific, and remain specific. Not being specific is smoke
and mirrors and misdirection. I have not seen the McKubre report, but
high precision calorimetery was used and the report affirmed P&F with
high sigma. While Rich requested ordering information, I see no evidence
that he procured and read this report. 

>The only response  of the advocates to experiments such as those by Tom Droege is to assert that they did not use "the correct protocol."  Of course  the correctness remains to be defined when the results are in hand.

Unless one refuses to acknowledge any positive results. Rich critiques
positive reports and quotes negative generalities without analysis. 

> Now just suppose there were a way to determine the CF reaction rate
> and power output independent of all calorimetry.  Then, by actual,
> measurement one can determine the precision of the calorimetry.
> I would suggest that this has actually been done and replicated many
> times.

In other words, there is no such thing as a CF reaction. All is error. 

> 
> The last comment suggests, that as Blue commented in a post on
> sci.physics.fusion today, that if there are no nuclear reactions in cold fusion cells, then any excess heat results are actually measurements of  calorimetry errors.  [This was the only comment by Murray in the original post.]

But what about the nuclear ash found in the A&Z cell?

Smoke and mirrors and misdirection. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 22:22:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29290;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:18:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:18:46 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <6c3c70ca.34922893 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:17:49 EST
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blue: CR calorimetry errors
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"CmVHI1.0.a97.5ZYaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13753
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-12 22:48:05 EST, you write:
<< The last comment suggests, that as Blue commented in a post on
 sci.physics.fusion today, that if there are no nuclear reactions in cold
 fusion cells, then any excess heat results are actually measurements of
 calorimetry errors.
 As one, Rich Murray >>

So if I get the drift right here calorimetry errors explain ALL excess
heat seen by experimenters.  Thats a pretty big pill to swallow Rich.
Hundreds of experiments by hundreds of experimenters all wrong
because of calorimetry errors. Also the tritium found that must
be,  well something else too. Unobtanium maybe?
Does this blanket assertion also apply to the guys at
Blacklightpower and Leihigh (sp?) University?

Hmmm.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 23:09:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12716;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:05:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:05:08 -0800 (PST)
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <cade94c9.3492333e aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:03:16 EST
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: My agenda with overunity (PLEASE READ)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Pfh8K2.0.U63.WEZaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13754
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is my agenda concerning overunity devices:
1. If I develope one, (that works) I don't want to patent it. Somebody and
their patent attorney would just get around the patent anyway. I've had
dealings with corporations and investors and they always want 97% and then
their accountant's get creative and take your remaining 3%.
2. I will give all information, I repeat, all information, to the list, no
"gray areas" or left out details.
3.  All questions will be answered with information on how the device works
and nothing else, I promise!
4. I do not want any profit from the device, as I believe trying to do so,
would slow or maybe stop it all together. Harry Truman said, it is amazing
what can be accomplished when no one cares who get the credit. My personal
gain would be seeing this device made available to the world. 
5. Every piece of technical info. will be put on a web site should I develope
a machine that works. This will keep it from being suppressed.
6.  I will flood the web with info. on it's operation and construction so as
to get it out to the world.
7. I am going to focus all efforts toward the switching on and off of a spin
balance system to achive o/u.
8. If a flux diverting switch can be developed that does not use more power as
it's switch on time decreases ( while still diverting the flux), then o/u will
be a simple matter. This is my agenda.
9. Please help as much as possible, as it will be for an o/u device for the
world and not my personal gain.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
Note: For information on spin balance systems, see (updates) Werjefelt papers
at overunity homepage at   http://www.overunity.de/over.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 12 23:12:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13415;
	Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:10:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:10:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349250D7.251C keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:09:43 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: My agenda with overunity (PLEASE READ)
References: <cade94c9.3492333e aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kitB81.0.VH3.UJZaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13755
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Butch!

Admirable and very cleanly stated...up to 7 and up (which are your own 
aproaches...as it should be).....thanks, I like agendas that people are 
CLEAR ON, so they don't go around casting aspersions from some 
misunderstanding....final proof, a self-sustained, greater than unity, 
working device that everyone can build or buy...period.  Thanks, gotta 
love it!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 00:30:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09975;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:27:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:27:06 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:27:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <199712122058.OAA18394 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971213011626.27851D-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"qCZVE1.0.nR2.ORaaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13756
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, John Logajan wrote:

  >>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:06 -0600 (CST)
  >>From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
  >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
  >>Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:58:14 -0800
  >>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>
  >>> I'm sure you would like to believe that 'robot boy', But it is only a alive if it
  >>> is truly Conscious.
  >>> Do you really believe that the mind is only a good computer program?
  >>> 
  >>> THINK about it ;^)
  >>> 
  >>> John Berry
  >>> 
  >>> 
  >>> John Logajan wrote:
  >>> 
  >>> > Actually, anything that acts like a human being -- is a human being.
  >>> > The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
  >>> > means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)
  >>> 
  >>> 
  >>
  >>
  >>-- 
  >> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
  >> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
  >> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
  >>
  >>
Left unsnip'd for review.... humm, first "you said", then "he replied",
THEN, In this e-mail, 
you reply with HIS reply "leading your statement/Reply." 
  
(???) 
Oh, RE-reverse the postions, OK got IT! Never mind... 
 
I Agree a 'weighted parallel program' can grow in intelligence, but
genetic encoding (?)  DNA ??    hummm.. Neat! ... hummm. 8 eyes open.

-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 00:34:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18195;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:30:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
In-Reply-To: <199712122104.PAA18556 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971213012817.27851E-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"vKv0-1.0.DS4.ZVaaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13757
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, John Logajan wrote:

  >>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:04:02 -0600 (CST)
  >>From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
  >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
  >>Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:04:11 -0800
  >>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>
  >>Oops, sorry for the previous scrambled message -- hit the wrong key again.
  >> 
  >>> John Logajan wrote:
  >>> > Actually, anything that acts like a human being -- is a human being.
  >>> > The "robot generation" is just the human race with a slightly different
  >>> > means of genetic encoding.  A trivial difference. :-)
  >>
  >>John Berry wrote:
  >>> I'm sure you would like to believe that 'robot boy', But it is only a
  >>>  alive if it is truly Conscious.
  >>
  >>Ah, but there is plenty of wiggle room in "acts like a human being."
  >>
  >>I'll simply assert, in a lawyerly manner, that anything that is not
  >>conscious cannot act like a human being. :-)
  >>
  >>> Do you really believe that the mind is only a good computer program?
  >>
  >>It is more and more evident that the human mind works because it
  >>is a bad computer.
  >>
  >>-- 
  >> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
  >> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
  >> -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

Opps, never mind, RE-set consciousness done :) Thanks :)
Understood. All reset.
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 00:44:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18842;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01510101b0b81716dc2c [195.132.13.203]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Mailer: Eudora F1.5.1
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "JEAN DELAGARDE" <jlagarde cyberaccess.fr>
Subject: Overunity RQM
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:39:44 +0100
Resent-Message-ID: <"L-H7F3.0.Ic4.xeaaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13758
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

        Hi all
Those interested in overunity electrical devices should have a look on the
following website :
                        http://www.rqm.ch/eng/n010897e.htm
Which is quite surprising
                                Jean DeLagarde


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 01:22:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14491;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:18:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:18:46 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:18:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
In-Reply-To: <90474376.349202af aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971213015634.27851K-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"lapya3.0.LY3.rBbaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13759
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Geosas wrote:

  >>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:36:12 EST
  >>From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
  >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
 Cc: mwhitten cyllene.uwa.edu.au, viv@ictus.demon.co.uk,
 bracewell nova.stanford.edu, Spelve@aol.com,
 101347.3305 compuserve.com, marcus@vml.u-net.com, aman@sonic.net,
 connex compuserve.com, rpb@nimbus.anu.edu.au, jmb@cs.su.oz.au,
 dgilad bgumail.bgu.ac.il, MAINUNO@aol.com, fulmar@btinternet.com,
 ralph.leishman email.tory.org.uk, pcl@sable.ox.ac.uk,
 alford dial.pipex.com, charles@crjsbath.demon.co.uk,
 boardmanb aw-el.com, Philigeor@aol.com, bjs.co.ltd@dial.pipex.com,
 ncd1 st-andrews.ac.uk, WildDive@aol.com, james@jmenterp.demon.co.uk,
 Rjevans6 aol.com, anne.baxter@zetnet.co.uk,
 michael.hughes pentacom.co.uk, steve@balogh.demon.co.uk,
 dtletters telegraph.co.uk
  >>Subject: Dangers of potassium
  >>Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:37:13 -0800
  >>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>
  >>Dear Prime Minister,
  >>
  >>I have been conducting scientific experiments which involve
  >>measuring the radioactivity in welds on steel, using electric
  >>arc welding, and have obtained some interesting results.
  >>
  >>Having recently been informed that the flux coating
  >>of welding rods contains (inter alia) potassium silicate,
  >>I was reminded that natural potassium is somewhat radioactive.
  >>The isotope 40K has a half-life of about 1.277E9 years, and
  >>emits gamma rays and other radiation with energies up to
  >>1.46 MeV.  This is sufficient to cause some damage to human
  >>and other tissues, especially our vital DNA.
  >>
  >>Having to hand an unopened plastic container with 500 grams
  >>of anhydrous potassium carbonate, I placed it on my Geiger
  >>counter and obtained counts of over 200/minute, while the
  >>local background is around 30/min.  So clearly the potassium
  >>silicate content of the welding rods' flux coating must
  >>account for some of the radioactivity observed in my welds.
  >>The potassium carbonate was supplied by Surechem Products
  >>Ltd., Needham Market, Suffolk.  I should add that the readings
  >>were obtained through the thickness of the stout plastic
  >>container, which would intercept a large proportion of the
  >>harmful radiation.
  >>
  >>In view of your obvious concern for our nation's health, in
  >>that you have chosen to ban the sale of all cattle-meat on
  >>the bone in Britain, and are contemplating a similar ban on
  >>sheep-meat, I must urge you to do likewise with any food-
  >>stuffs containing this highly dangerous element potassium.
  >>
  >>Yours etc., George Sassoon, Lochbuie, Isle of Mull, PA62 6AA
  >>
  >>PS not sent to TONY.BLAIR poptel.org.uk:  I had no idea that
  >>the radioactivity of natural potassium was so high.  With luck we
  >>can get a good food panic out of this and ridicule the meat-on-the
  >>bone scares.  Hopefully also, they will fail to realise that potassium
  >>is essential for the correct function of our nervous systems. Geo.
  >>
  >>
Give it A rest - YOU seeking anything for your 15 minutes of fame! 
Many older, (over 85 years old and still ticking), welders (ship,
industrial, common.), when asked about this say "Take a Hike - and get a
breath of 02".
  One can get more concentrated radiation standing in the sun on a cloudy
day... Besides, IF you welded it AND weld it Right!, Move on to the next
weld and get going with the "JOB" at hand.. not the "complaint at thought" 
  My (hand made) bread in the oven is appearing to radiate too... Aghh.. 
should I report this excess "radiation", OR, just EAT it!
  
Thought for today: "Nothing has more lives than an error you refuse to
correct" -- O.A. Battista, Canadian-born author-scientist.

:)

sit back - relax- eat a cow (burger) and THINK POSITIVE!!!
(OR did I fall for something here (Like=H20) like a fish to bait?)
sounds BELOW Alpa to me 1/4" --- (mooo) DUCK & COVER WORLD!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 01:39:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16575;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:37:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:37:36 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 02:37:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: My agenda with overunity (PLEASE READ)
In-Reply-To: <cade94c9.3492333e aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971213023553.27851L-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"glTmG.0.s24.VTbaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13760
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, HLafonte wrote:
no snip needed
  >>Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 01:03:16 EST
  >>From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
  >>Reply-To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
  >>To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
  >>Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
  >>Subject: My agenda with overunity (PLEASE READ)
  >>Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:05:09 -0800 (PST)
  >>Resent-From: freenrg-l eskimo.com
  >>
  >>This is my agenda concerning overunity devices:
  >>1. If I develope one, (that works) I don't want to patent it. Somebody and
  >>their patent attorney would just get around the patent anyway. I've had
  >>dealings with corporations and investors and they always want 97% and then
  >>their accountant's get creative and take your remaining 3%.
  >>2. I will give all information, I repeat, all information, to the list, no
  >>"gray areas" or left out details.
  >>3.  All questions will be answered with information on how the device works
  >>and nothing else, I promise!
  >>4. I do not want any profit from the device, as I believe trying to do so,
  >>would slow or maybe stop it all together. Harry Truman said, it is amazing
  >>what can be accomplished when no one cares who get the credit. My personal
  >>gain would be seeing this device made available to the world. 
  >>5. Every piece of technical info. will be put on a web site should I develope
  >>a machine that works. This will keep it from being suppressed.
  >>6.  I will flood the web with info. on it's operation and construction so as
  >>to get it out to the world.
  >>7. I am going to focus all efforts toward the switching on and off of a spin
  >>balance system to achive o/u.
  >>8. If a flux diverting switch can be developed that does not use more power as
  >>it's switch on time decreases ( while still diverting the flux), then o/u will
  >>be a simple matter. This is my agenda.
  >>9. Please help as much as possible, as it will be for an o/u device for the
  >>world and not my personal gain.
  >>Thanks,
  >>Butch LaFonte
  >>Note: For information on spin balance systems, see (updates) Werjefelt papers
  >>at overunity homepage at   http://www.overunity.de/over.htm
  >>
  >>
Amen, (execpt for #3, I might ADD a non-relevant MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL)!
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 04:09:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29632;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:06:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:06:33 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:51:55 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971213120917510.AAA207 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"iXc7S2.0.wE7.7fdaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13761
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. You had a 500 g batch and got a reading 7x
over background. Big deal. Do you have any idea what the total potassium
content of a healthy human body is? I don't, but perhaps Mitch Swartz may
know. 

And indeed the potassium/sodium balance is utterly necessary for the heath
of an animal body. 

Next you will be lecturing on the hazards of dihydrogen oxide, which is
directly associated with thousands of deaths annually. 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 05:36:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05048;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:33:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:33:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b8381b553f [199.237.131.229]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 04:34:25 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: new toy at EarthTech!
Resent-Message-ID: <"hdhv02.0.mE1.9weaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13762
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Last year this was Christmas shopping list time, this year Santa came early!


At 6:04 PM 12/12/97, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>
>In the past, we have made good use of our TEK720 digital oscilloscope which
>can monitor both voltage and current and multiply them in realtime to
>produce a power trace.  However, the TEK lacks somewhat in accuracy
>especially at higher voltages and frequencies.
>
>The most demanding application we've encountered thus far is the
>measurement of power delivered to an ultrasonic transducer.  These
>transducers typically operate at 20 kHz, several hundred milliamps, several
>hundred volts, and with a power factor that ranges from 0.3 to 0.7
>depending upon the load that is being driven.
>
>We discovered that the TEK720 could only get within 10% relative on this
>application!  As luck would have it, the TEK read LOW by 10% so we went
>through a semi-euphoric period of thinking that our experiments were
>producing 10% excess heat before we discovered the problem....8(
[snip]


I assume that is the Tektronics THS720 hand-held digital scope.

I am a bit concerned about the source of the problem using the 720.  I have
a very similar problem since many of my recent experiments have significant
phase shifts and transients, so I have been thinking about buying a
computer interface for my TDS220, and the Wavetek software.  It doesn't
seem the problem could be sampling rate, assuming you have used the right
sampling speed, as the 720 can sample at 500 mega-samples per second.  The
voltage can't be off by 10% if the scope is calibrated.

Do you know the source of the 720 problem?

Were you using the Wavetek software, or homebrew, to calculate true V*I?

What was your scan (sampling) rate?

The Clarke-Hess Model 2330 must be very good at out of phase conditions
then, as the transducer is a capacitor?  Does it have a computer interface?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 05:46:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06533;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:45:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:45:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712131344.HAA09983 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:44:04 (-050
Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Replicating people
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19971212125335.00a7b8a0 spectre.mitre.org>
References: <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"QItVx2.0._b1.X5faq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13763
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Dan, Robert,

> Date:          Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:53:35 -0500
> From:          "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>

This thread isn't off topic -- it's dead on the topics of this list.

> Oh, by the way, the art of
> creating a particle which is a "perfect" copy of another particle some
> distance away is called teleportation.  A teleported particle copies not
> only the "normal" information such as charge, spin, and momentum, but the
> full quantum state.  A hot topic in physics right now.

The reason it's on-topic is that a 'teleported' particle is really either 
a transmuted particle or a particle created from energy.  Since we've 
talked a lot about transmutation, I'd think that teleporting is an 
extreme case of transmutation (or transmutation is a subset of 
teleporting/replicating).

I don't see replication on the subatomic scale as being likely in the 
next few years (or centuries?).

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 06:04:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11344;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:00:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:00:22 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0b845106062 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:02:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: My agenda with overunity (PLEASE READ)
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"b24EN3.0.4n2.qJfaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13764
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 1:03 AM 12/13/97, HLafonte wrote:
>This is my agenda concerning overunity devices:
>1. If I develope one, (that works) I don't want to patent it. Somebody and
>their patent attorney would just get around the patent anyway. I've had
>dealings with corporations and investors and they always want 97% and then
>their accountant's get creative and take your remaining 3%.

Three percent is *very* good, if you are talking royalties.

Still, I applaud your generosity.  It is a very freeing feeling to give
away your ideas isn't it?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 06:43:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13952;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:40:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:40:06 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b0b848db4499 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 05:42:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"OenQL2.0.wP3.5vfaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13765
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It seems to me like it must be important to measure the displacement of
swing as a function of time, and maximum displacement over time as well. If
the curve is not sinusoidal, and the maximums consistent, then a simple
pendulum motion is not present, and the problem needs to be fixed or
analysed.  Nonlinearities could result from temperature gradients in the
band, thickness variations, stiffnes variations, local electrostatic
charges, drafts, presence of the experimenter's mass, sunlight or other
radiation, local mass shifts (e.g. tides), temperature and humidity
changes, vibrations, ground movement (primarily an arctic problem I guess,)
change of level due to thermal expansion effects on mounting table, etc.

Mainly though, I am posting this to suggest an idea for a variation.  That
is, to try adding metal plates (or balls the sze of the balls on the beam)
near the beam, on opposite sides of the beam, and, using a bridge to apply
very small voltages, charging the plates opposite the external masses,
relative to the balls on the beam.  In other words compare the effect of a
very small voltage gradient to the force of gravity.  This could be used to
either calibrate the device or compare gravitational vs electrostatic
forces (though I guess Milikan did that another way, didn't he?)  Just a
thought.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 07:37:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14031;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:35:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:35:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311070db0b852bc9357 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b0b81716dc2c [195.132.13.203]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:34:06 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Overunity RQM
Resent-Message-ID: <"VKif7.0.9R3.kigaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13766
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Those interested in overunity electrical devices should have a look on the
>following website :
>                        http://www.rqm.ch/eng/n010897e.htm
>Which is quite surprising

yes, there is quite of bit of stuff there. just go to http://www.rqm.ch/eng/
and start clicking...

besides the page mentioned above, we find order forms for stock purchase
(they take visa, mc or amex), order forms for purchasing books, videos,
posters and copies of reports and papers, including the British Intelligence
report on the Coler device (50 Sfr) (this is available for free on the web),
the MRA (40 Sfr) and the Monstein effect (20 Sfr).  (what's the conversion
from Swiss francs to US dollars?)

there is a rather interesting paper on-line, "Electromagnetic Induction
without a Magnetic Field", http://www.rqm.ch/eng/hoopera2.htm



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 07:56:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15499;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:55:00 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 07:55:00 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311070eb0b85cccf06f [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b0b848db4499 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:54:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"XP2Eh.0.5o3.G_gaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13767
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Mainly though, I am posting this to suggest an idea for a variation.  That
>is, to try adding metal plates (or balls the sze of the balls on the beam)

I would suggest another variation, to use other metals besides lead.

Several months ago, I discovered some papers (on the APS eprint server)
by a retired physics professor named R.L.Collins.  (Pete Skeggs just
added a bunch of links to these on his gravity shielding page).  In
"Is Gravity Electromagnetic" Collins says:

"The most disturbing result of this study is that gravity may not turn out
to be universal.  That is, big 'G' may depend on the elements involved and
even on temperature.  Experiments to measure G are inherently difficult
because the forces available are tiny, and so one normally uses lead for
the spheres of a Cavendish experiment.  Extension of these studies to
include other substances is highly desirable."

Shortly after I read this paper, somebody on the freenrg-l mailing list
posted a note about Charles Brush, a turn-of-the-century industrialist,
who conducted a number of experiments (published in the Philosophical
Magazine) that led him to a similar conclusion.  Here's a snip from that
one:

>Brush [...] clearly
>demonstrated that different substances fall at different rates, and
>pendulums made of equivalent masses of different substances have different
>periods (which is another way of saying the same thing).
>
>Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>attraction between masses):
>
>Aluminum    130
>Zinc        100
>Tin         100
>Lead         93
>Silver       80
>Bismuth      72
>
>Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 08:25:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19337;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:21:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:21:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:20:34 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971213112034_-1505373946 mrin52>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Mizuno & Oriani?
Resent-Message-ID: <"NjCRO3.0._j4.YOhaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13768
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed,

You wrote that the bulk of Mizuno's new book was about his own work and his
collaboration with Oriani.  Richard Oriani of the U. of Minnesota (retd)?  I
didn't know that their collaboration had been that extensive.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 08:36:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20837;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:33:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:33:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:27:37 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971213015634.27851K-100000 november>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213111415.24891B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"vutdr.0.S55.nZhaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13769
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear vo.

	You may have missed George's point.  He is trying to show the 
equivalency of needless panic ... ie.

	radioactive potassium
	dihydrogen oxide
	meat on the bone 

	I am a very poor man.  Last time I made a comment few replied to, 
I started it out with 'my 2 cents worth' .... and then later another Vo 
contributed his 'my 2 bits worth'.
	I REFUSE to be drawn into a bidding war!

	SO:  My 2 cents worth:

	I am guessing, so please correct me, there is a ban on certain 
meat products in UK. 

	Can anyone tell me, in general, what the ban is, and the official 
reason why some products are banned, and what, specifically is banned?

	Not knowing the details I cannot make an informed call on the 
ban.  I did work for a couple of years on a single organism on the 
molecular biochemical level.  The was a low life form which changed from 
plant to animal and back again.  The reason I an writing my 2 cents is to 
say:

	There is a difference between hazards of what I will term for 
this discussion 'a hard nature' ... this would be chemical, material or 
radioactive... and hazards of a biological nature .. which would be 
anthrax or salmonella.

	How they are dealt with is different too.


					J 

	


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 08:37:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21018;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:35:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:35:05 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:28:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
In-Reply-To: <19971213120917510.AAA207 default>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213112805.24891C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"gGE5x.0.K85.qahaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13770
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



......		It is tongue in cheek .... Gee guys... did you miss it!

					J

On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Mike Carrell wrote:

> Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. You had a 500 g batch and got a reading 7x
> over background. Big deal. Do you have any idea what the total potassium
> content of a healthy human body is? I don't, but perhaps Mitch Swartz may
> know. 
> 
> And indeed the potassium/sodium balance is utterly necessary for the heath
> of an animal body. 
> 
> Next you will be lecturing on the hazards of dihydrogen oxide, which is
> directly associated with thousands of deaths annually. 
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 08:43:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27442;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:37:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:37:56 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:32:30 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: The 5th force....Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb0b85cccf06f [206.243.174.18]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213113149.24891D-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"mU5pp.0.ii6.Ydhaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13771
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Sounds like Ralph is talking about the 5th force!

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, ralph muha wrote:

> >Mainly though, I am posting this to suggest an idea for a variation.  That
> >is, to try adding metal plates (or balls the sze of the balls on the beam)
> 
> I would suggest another variation, to use other metals besides lead.
> 
> Several months ago, I discovered some papers (on the APS eprint server)
> by a retired physics professor named R.L.Collins.  (Pete Skeggs just
> added a bunch of links to these on his gravity shielding page).  In
> "Is Gravity Electromagnetic" Collins says:
> 
> "The most disturbing result of this study is that gravity may not turn out
> to be universal.  That is, big 'G' may depend on the elements involved and
> even on temperature.  Experiments to measure G are inherently difficult
> because the forces available are tiny, and so one normally uses lead for
> the spheres of a Cavendish experiment.  Extension of these studies to
> include other substances is highly desirable."
> 
> Shortly after I read this paper, somebody on the freenrg-l mailing list
> posted a note about Charles Brush, a turn-of-the-century industrialist,
> who conducted a number of experiments (published in the Philosophical
> Magazine) that led him to a similar conclusion.  Here's a snip from that
> one:
> 
> >Brush [...] clearly
> >demonstrated that different substances fall at different rates, and
> >pendulums made of equivalent masses of different substances have different
> >periods (which is another way of saying the same thing).
> >
> >Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
> >attraction between masses):
> >
> >Aluminum    130
> >Zinc        100
> >Tin         100
> >Lead         93
> >Silver       80
> >Bismuth      72
> >
> >Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 09:24:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28279;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:17:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:17:30 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: Dangers of potassium
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:14:14 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd07ea$89b00d80$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"RsMO03.0.jv6.dCiaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13772
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com <vortex-L@eskimo.com>

Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 8:41 PM
Subject: Dangers of potassium


>Dear Prime Minister,
>
>I have been conducting scientific experiments which involve
>measuring the radioactivity in welds on steel, using electric
>arc welding, and have obtained some interesting results.
>
>Having recently been informed that the flux coating
>of welding rods contains (inter alia) potassium silicate,
>I was reminded that natural potassium is somewhat radioactive.
>The isotope 40K has a half-life of about 1.277E9 years, and
>emits gamma rays and other radiation with energies up to
>1.46 MeV.  This is sufficient to cause some damage to human
>and other tissues, especially our vital DNA.
>
>Having to hand an unopened plastic container with 500 grams
>of anhydrous potassium carbonate, I placed it on my Geiger
>counter and obtained counts of over 200/minute, while the
>local background is around 30/min.  So clearly the potassium
>silicate content of the welding rods' flux coating must
>account for some of the radioactivity observed in my welds.

The carbon in potassium carbonate K2CO3 contains enough radioactive CARBON
14 to give about 13 counts/minute per gram of carbon in the K2CO3. The
Carbon 14 is "synthesized" in the Earth's atmosphere by fast neutron
bombardment (from cosmic rays) of the Nitrogen in the atmosphere;
neutron + 7 N14---> Proton + 6 C14.

The radioactive 6 C14 decays(5730 years) by the emission of a 156 Kev beta
(100%) back to 7 N14.

Since most people are contain about 30% Carbon by weight as does  most other
biomass in our biosphere including celluose we must be Hot as Hell!    :-)

Now you know why the "Shroud of Turin" has an image in it.

>The potassium carbonate was supplied by Surechem Products
>Ltd., Needham Market, Suffolk.  I should add that the readings
>were obtained through the thickness of the stout plastic
>container, which would intercept a large proportion of the
>harmful radiation.
>
>In view of your obvious concern for our nation's health, in
>that you have chosen to ban the sale of all cattle-meat on
>the bone in Britain, and are contemplating a similar ban on
>sheep-meat, I must urge you to do likewise with any food-
>stuffs containing this highly dangerous element potassium.
>
>Yours etc., George Sassoon, Lochbuie, Isle of Mull, PA62 6AA
.
Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 10:43:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00197;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:36:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:36:48 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:34:56 -0800
Message-Id: <199712131834.KAA16884 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: The 5th force....Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"fzh-k2.0._2._Mjaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13773
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>
>	Sounds like Ralph is talking about the 5th force!
>


>> >Brush [...] clearly
>> >demonstrated that different substances fall at different rates, and
>> >pendulums made of equivalent masses of different substances have different
>> >periods (which is another way of saying the same thing).
>> >
>> >Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>> >attraction between masses):
>> >
>> >Aluminum    130
>> >Zinc        100
>> >Tin         100
>> >Lead         93
>> >Silver       80
>> >Bismuth      72
>> >
>> >Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.


Under the Ptolemaic system, when you discovered a new point of light that
moved about the "Heavens", you gave it a new name.  It could have any of a
number of celestial spheres upon which it rode around the flat earth for our
pleasure.  By measuring the motions from day to day, year to year, it was
possible, in principle, to improve the accuracy of the predictions of future
motions, including retrograde motions, to any desired level of accuracy.
Thus, in principle, the Ptolemaic, earth centered universe was as good a
model as the Newtonian.

The problem is, each time you must add yet another new parameter to make the
whole system work, the system itself becomes less and less convincing.  By
replacing the earth by the sun, and working with a heliocentric universe, we
finally managed to understand to a much greater degree, the reason behind
the retrograde motions and the periods of the various orbits.

In our current particle system, we can in principle, determine the
probabilities of motions of matter throughout our universe to any level of
accuracy by using our notions of "forces" of interaction between particles.
And any time that we find a deviation from our expectations, we can simply
claim that there is yet another force.  For a separation between inertial
and gravitational interactions, we can claim a fifth force.  For the
expansion of the universe, we can claim to introduce a cosmological
constant, which is nothing more than yet another force acting on different
distance scales.

By replacing the notion of "particle", plus "force", plus "spacetime", with
"aether in motion", I think it is possible to study the geometry of the
standing waves involved directly, and avoid the notions of forces all
together.  

The above experiments may be important in establishing the equivalency or
the difference in the mentioned behaviors.  

Gravitation, in a soliton model, is due to the attenuation of incident wave
energy arriving from the distant universe.  It is not a force of attraction,
but rather a force resulting from mutual shielding, which pushes both
particles away from the incident wave energy, the distant universe.

Inertia, in a soliton model, is due to the interaction (ie phase and
frequency coupling) of a soliton (aka particle in todays physics), to the
ambient spacetime acoustic wave energy (ie spacetime is modeled as an
acoustic standing wave structure with a quadrature topology which particles
are driven by, and therefore coupled to).  

But, the filtering of incident wave energy by a large body like earth, or
the masses in the Cavendish balance, leads to a localized aether density
gradient.  And in acoustic standing wave structures, a density gradient in
turn leads to a distortion to the shapes of the locations of the acoustic
nodes.  In other words, the acoustic manifold topology becomes "curved" in
the sense that the nodes deviate from what we would think of as a straight
line and become what we would think of as straight in the GR context.

Thus, for inertial phenomena in a gravitational field, you can follow the
path of the inertially moving object through the "curved topology".  This is
the GR approach.  Or you can study the amount of filtering the object
performs on the incident waves, and this is the Newtonian approach.  

If, inertial and gravitational interactions are different, then, the only
direction of the difference must be that the inertial interaction is greater
than the gravitational.  This is because the gravitational thrust comes from
a finite reserve of incident wave energy from deep space, whereas the
inertial interaction is due to the interaction with local spacetime
oscillations (call them quantum vacuum fluctuations if that is easier, or
spacetime foam but with an organization to it rather than the QM wierdness
popular today.  You see, with a spacetime that is itself a dynamic, acoustic
structure, you no more need to stipulate quantum mechanical wierdness for
sub atomic particle motions than you would need to in a Brownian motion
observation.  There is a source for the impetus, spacetime is not a metric,
it is a topolgical, dynamic, interactive, manifold of acoustic energy.)

It may well be that different materials will interact differently and give
different values for G.  It is already known that G is measured to be
different values at different laboratories, such that the values do not all
lie within one anothers error boxes!

The ability of various nuclei to filter out the incident wave energy may
well be different.

I would try to use materials that have very different atomic weights, AND,
very different densities.  ie, try to get a material where the ratio of MW
to rho is substantially different.  This could be two very dense materials,
where one is of low and one is of high MW.  This way, you are altering the
incident wave filtering from being due mostly to waves within the nuclear
region, to waves of interatomic regions.

I predict that the matter with the greater number of atoms will gravitate to
a greater degree.  ie, if you found two materials with the same density for
the bulk material, but one had a denser packing of atoms than the other, but
with a lower MW, then that material I think will gravitate to a greater
degree.  

If you think of tiny dots that are doing the filtering, but the dots are
spread far apart, as they are in inter nuclear distances from one atom to
the next, then were you have a smaller number of nucleons in each atom, but
more atoms packed into the same volume such that the total weight and total
density are the same, then you wind up with a situation where each tiny dot
is filtering out a bit of wave energy from a region far from the other.  So
the chances that the various atoms are thrust to a greater degree in
different directions is greater.  

ie, the converse is that if you have a large number of nucleons in a given
nucleus, then all of those are in close proximity in the local spacetime,
and so there is less chances that there will be a different in the degree of
turbulence in the incident waves in the inter-nucleon distance scale than
there would be on the inter-nucleus distance scale.  

The wavelength of spacetime wave energy is on the order of the Planck scale,
ie E-35 meters.  So even nuclei are huge in comparison.  That is why G is so
nearly a constant independent of material.  

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 10:50:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01632;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:47:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:47:49 -0800
Message-ID: <34935BF7.2857 bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:09:27 -0800
From: "Terry J. Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213111415.24891B-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wQxKl.0.KP.KXjaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13774
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:

[snip]

>         I am guessing, so please correct me, there is a ban on certain
> meat products in UK.
> 
>         Can anyone tell me, in general, what the ban is, and the official
> reason why some products are banned, and what, specifically is banned?

[snip]

The latest "finding" is that the prions responsible for BSE, aka Mad Cow
Disease, reside in the connective tissue between bone and muscle; hence,
the banning of T-Bone steaks.  I prefer ribeye and filet mignon anyway.
<G>

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 11:29:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10542;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:23:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:23:52 -0800
Message-Id: <199712131923.LAA14557 germany.it.earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: themacman macsrule.com
Subject: ZPE in Newtonian space as a replacement for Quantum Mechanics
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:28:08 +0000
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman macsrule.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"HI-_L1.0.Ya2.63kaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13775
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

*Disclaimer: I am not a physicist. I don't understand the math or equations behind what I am talking about. What I am proposing is an idea, not a proof. Science is in the habit of requiring proof before even considering new info. I merely follow a path of
 abductive reasoning (the logical form of inductive reasoning that leads to the best possible answer, not just a plausible one.) Einstein himself said that imagination is more important than knowledge. My info is based on the three URLs below. Your input 
on my theory would be appreciated.*

(If you are interested in understanding what I am saying, please read these first, and then continue on with this message. This message may sound proposterous unless you have the background of these articles...)

Source URLs:
http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe1.html
http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe3.html
http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe4.html

The field of Quantum Mechanics was invented after the paradigm of Newtonian physics failed to explain certain sub-atomic occurences:
     Electrons in orbit should spin off all of their energy and collapse into the nucleus.
     Nuclear fusion, nuclear fission, gravity, and time are all unexplainable in Newtonian physics.
     Particle behavior does not reflect behavior of solid objects in the macrocosm.

However, since the discovery of Zero Point Energy, Quantum Mechanics is no longer needed to explain these behaviors. (see URLs)

Zero Point Energy (ZPE) is a base energy that exists everywhere in the Universe. It is omnidirectional and uniform. It is like a "sea" of base energy. Since it radiates from all directions in perfect uniformity, it has no effect on an object's momentum. 

The interesting thing about ZPE is how it explains the first problem that Quantum Mechanics was used to describe. Every time an electron spins in its rotation around the nucleus, it emits energy. Eventually, it should collapse into the nucleus. To compens
ate, the idea of a lowest possible electron "shell".  However, ZPE radiates enough energy to keep the electron in a stable orbit, since the ZPE energy absorbtion equals the energy loss due to rotation.

Another idea that Quantum Mechanics used to describe the indescribable are "strong" and "weak" nuclear forces. These refer to the forces that interact upon the nucleus that holds it together. However, these too can be explained by Zero Point Energy. Oddly
 enough, this same example can also explain gravity itself.

Imagine a 3-Dimentional room with infinite dimensions, X, Y, and Z. There are no walls, being the room is infinitely large, and there are no floors or ceilings. There is air, though. There is no "gravity" in the earthly sense, being that the air has equal
 pressure throughout its infinite volume. And with air being air, it moves in every direction to fill up the space, so it exerts equal pressure in all directions.  Now, imagine that this air is more like energy that flows all across the continuum. Air par
ticles stop and bounce off when they hit another air particle, but the ZPE does not. It continues until it hits solid matter, since it is radiating energy.

Now imagine holding two ballons together, about one meter apart.  To the left of the left balloon is an infinite amount of "air", and to the right of the right balloon is and infinite amount of "air". However, between the two balloons is only one meter of
 "air". If the air is instead an energy field like ZPE, then the "energy pressure" on either side of the "balloons" is greater than the "energy pressure" in the one meter between the "Ballons."

This could easily account for gravity. However, it could also explain strong and weak nuclear forces. Remember that atoms are mostly space, and that the distance between an electron and the nucleus is similar to Pluto and the Sun. Now since the ZPE is uni
directional and is radiating from every point in space, it would behave similarly to the example I gave, except that the energy would affect the particles that make up the atom (proton, neutron, electron), and not the atom as a whole. This means that ZPE 
is free to radiate through and atom except at the very small degree where particles exist. 

Imagine a room full of lights (about 50), and put a single grain of sand in the way. Only a small angle of shadow exists from any one light, but from all lights, it is completely unnoticable. ZPE works very much the same. That is how we can have ZPE energ
y holding us to our chairs in our offices from every point in the universe above and around us, but not below us, because of the extremely dense formation of nucleii (the Earth.)

Now imagine two nucleii being bombarded by ZPE energy. First of all, the charge of the nucleii repel each other. However, the ZPE pressure differential of two close nucleii pushes them together. However, the ZPE pressure differential is not enough to caus
e them to join as one nucleus. Remember, that as long as there is even one point between the two nucleii, ZPE is counteracting on all sides. 

So when the two nucleii get even closer together, there is less ZPE between them, but the charge repulsion is greater. However, with great nuclear velocities, it is possible to overcome this repulsion.  The collision of two nucleii at high speed creates i
mmense energy AND results in a stable new nucleus. The nucleus is stable because now all of the ZPE is counteracting the charge, not the charge and itself. It turns out that ZPE is also the exact force required to hold two nucleii together assuming there 
is no ZPE force between the two. 

However, the energy produced by the fusion is a much more complex situation. We have seen how ZPE holds together atoms by giving the electron the energy input to match the energy it's radiating off in its spinning movement. Similarly, ZPE holds the nucleu
s together in one piece. But, scientists (see urls) have found that energy output has been created by ZPE interactions. The energy is usually produced when the nucleii of a plasma field undergoes non-linear movement in the presense of matter, such as cros
s rotational (the nucleii of the plasma rotate along x, and then y axes.) This is what I call "Nuclear Turblence." This causes fluctuations in the ZPE energy around the nucleus, resulting in extreme amounts of energy. This Nuclear Turbulence is when the c
hange of accelleration of the nucleus with respect to time is great. The greater the change in accelleration, the greater the ZPE fluctuation. 

Now we know that ZPE holds atoms and nucleii together, but it is also possible that ZPE holds the components of electrons, protons, and neutrons together. It may hold matter together in every component level down the matter/energy scale past the photon do
wn to pure ZPE energy itself. The level of complexity of matter can only exist when the corresponding frequency of ZPE exists. That would explain matter annhilation (excess energy) in the presence of ZPE fluctuations.

This has been described as the source of every free energy device in the world. However, it is also the source of nuclear power, both fission and fusion, and holds our molecules together. It is also responsible for time and gravity. Fusion itself is a pro
duct of ZPE fluctuations. However, ZPE fluctuations can be very *dangerous*. Although ZPE can be used safely in small devices like the electrolytic device employed by Pons and Fleischmann, a large scale ZPE fluctuation could be devastating, not only to th
e device itself, but also to all of the space around it. For example: A star uses fusion based ZPE fluctuations for its power. These are a vast array of small ZPE interactions. However, whenever enough mass is accumulated to create a singularity or black 
hole, the ZPE fluctuation is enough that gravity and time fluctuations that coincide with ZPE interactions punch a hole the fabric of space. The ZPE effects ripple through the space around it, causing gravatic and temperal shi!
fts well outside of its boundaries. Any large scale ZPE reaction (such as one the size of a current nuclear reactor) could theoretically do anything from destroy the area of an entire city to that of a state (in 3D, affecting the crust!)

So as we go ahead to create our ZPE based free energy machines, remember: THINK MASSIVE NUMBER OF MACHINES, BUT SMALL SCALE. This is, if you care about living for any length of time. To calculate the energy output from a ZPE fluctuation, you just need to 
calculate the frequency of the fluctuation, what level of energy that matter is disintegrating into, and use that variable and plug it into E =3D M C*C... (sorry, no superscripts...).

Nuclear fusion is child's play compared to ZPE...











Concepts and theories pertaining to ZPE as the answer to Quantum Mechanics' answer to Newtonian Physics problems contained herein are Copyright 1997 by Mark Anthony Collins.  Not like this is going to stop anyone, but I'd thought I'd try...
Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 11:51:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18944;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:42:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:42:42 -0800 (PST)
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <f6db4d24.3492e4bb aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:10:40 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"jX_nF3.0.vd4.mKkaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13777
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to all who replied to my questions on the
atomic hydrogen torch (plasma torch).

My questions were stimulated by the work at 
Blacklightpower regarding the catalisys of hydrogen atoms
in the suns corona to a lower "ground state" that they
say releases great amounts of energy in the extreme
ultraviolet and soft x-ray spectrum.

I was just wondering if there was a reaction going on in 
the plasma of the torch arc similar to the BLP theory.

Again, thanks for the input. I have some reading to do.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 11:55:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18894;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:42:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b894f85052 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:43:59 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"ljhWW2.0.6d4.SKkaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13776
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:54 AM 12/13/97, ralph muha wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>>attraction between masses):
>>
>>Aluminum    130
>>Zinc        100
>>Tin         100
>>Lead         93
>>Silver       80
>>Bismuth      72
>>
>>Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.


Interesting!  At first glance these appear to be variations in the extreme.
What do the numbers represent?  Certainly not time periods.  A clock with
a brass pendulum keeps the same time as one using lead, so I don't
understand the numbers.  They reflect some kind of small difference value?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 11:59:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16492;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:53:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:53:41 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b897c1f7cf [199.237.131.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:56:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
Resent-Message-ID: <"cgaiM.0.X14.4Vkaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13778
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 8:09 PM 12/13/97, Terry J. Blanton wrote:
>John Schnurer wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>         I am guessing, so please correct me, there is a ban on certain
>> meat products in UK.
>>
>>         Can anyone tell me, in general, what the ban is, and the official
>> reason why some products are banned, and what, specifically is banned?
>
>[snip]
>
>The latest "finding" is that the prions responsible for BSE, aka Mad Cow
>Disease, reside in the connective tissue between bone and muscle; hence,
>the banning of T-Bone steaks.  I prefer ribeye and filet mignon anyway.
><G>
>
>Terry


Yes - also, the initial cause for the prion formation is repeated cycling
of the same protiens through cows, i.e. feeding ground cow parts to cows.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 12:05:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18879;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:02:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:02:47 -0800
From: "Mike McDonald" <McDonalM asms1X.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Organization: AR School for Math & Science
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:57:51 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: {OFF TOPIC}
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a)
Message-ID: <76F2A411E6 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pGcq61.0.rc4.bdkaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13779
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

A physics professor was arguing the possibilities of light actually 
having to vibrate in the fourth dimension to be "correct".  

I came up with a small theory of my own.  Light could actually move 
in a circular pattern in the fourth dimension.  If it did, and it was 
projected relative to time and movement, it would make the exact same 
shape in three dimensions as a 3 dimensional-type sine/cosine 
function with only a small degree of thickness, which is they way 
light behaves!!!

What are all of your opinions on this theory (I haven't been keeping 
up with the latest ones, so  I hope that it is not taken.

Regards,

  Mike P. McDonald



Micheal P. McDonald
Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences
McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 13:50:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01272;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:46:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:46:22 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:43:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Soltis James Dr." <soltis server.uwindsor.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC}
In-Reply-To: <76F2A411E6 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971213161402.26766A-100000 server.uwindsor.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"-CGV42.0.oJ.i8maq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13780
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Mike McDonald wrote:

> Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:57:51 -0600
> From: Mike McDonald <McDonalM asms1X.dsc.k12.ar.us>
> To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> Subject: {OFF TOPIC}
> 
> A physics professor was arguing the possibilities of light actually 
> having to vibrate in the fourth dimension to be "correct".  
> 
> I came up with a small theory of my own.  Light could actually move 
> in a circular pattern in the fourth dimension.  If it did, and it was 
> projected relative to time and movement, it would make the exact same 
> shape in three dimensions as a 3 dimensional-type sine/cosine 
> function with only a small degree of thickness, which is they way 
> light behaves!!!
> 
> What are all of your opinions on this theory (I haven't been keeping 
> up with the latest ones, so  I hope that it is not taken.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   Mike P. McDonald
> 
> 
> 
> Micheal P. McDonald
> Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences
> McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us
> 
Although I'm only half-way thru it , I recommend "HYPERSPACE" by
Michio Kaku.For about 15US$ , here is a GREAT book .Don't be
putoff( pun ) by the name, the guy is an excellent writer.
The ISBN is 0-385-47705-8 from Anchor books.Easily the best
book on the search for unification of forces I've come across.
P.S. I'm still promoting my dithered trig functions--they at least
scare the hell out of me-e.g.Lissajous figure stuff finds a virtually 
infinite
world of new patterns here-I've got new patterns up the aperture.I'm finding 
lots of linkages with chaos,
fractals,complexity,turbulence,etc.I'm not surprised---lurking in that
non-linear world of the elliptic functions --when treated on a transform 
basis there are (at say double precision) about 10^20 waveforms of fuzzy 
looking sine and cosine waves ( + others-- e.g. the dn function )
                                   Jim Soltis
                  http://www.uwindsor.ca/faculty/eng/electrical/soltis

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 14:59:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08266;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:54:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:54:14 -0800 (PST)
From: JNaudin509 <JNaudin509 aol.com>
Message-ID: <b6402677.34931180 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:51:41 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, rmuha@minimal.com, harti@harti.com
Subject: Hooper-Monstein experiment
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"GRUhY3.0.412.K8naq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13781
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All,

I have updated my web site with some very interesting tests results about the
Hooper Monstein Effect and also about the RQM theory on Quantum Energy.

You will find all informations at :
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qermnu.htm

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin
12/13/97 - 22:45GMT

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 15:39:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14563;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:35:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:35:03 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110715b0b8c4303af7 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213113149.24891D-100000 college>
References: <v0311070eb0b85cccf06f [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:34:51 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: The 5th force....Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"ybqFl3.0.AZ3.cknaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13782
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>	Sounds like Ralph is talking about the 5th force!

I'm not talking about anything.  But what Collins is talking
about is not a 5th force; rather, an EM explanation of gravity.
Here is the abstract of his paper:

"Gravity is usually listed as one of four fundamental forces.
This study suggests that energy is exchanged between neutral
masses, via a long range electromagnetic force, and that this
exchange of energy reproduces the effects of gravity.  The
mechanism involves transient electric fields, ever present
in neutral atoms in consequence of the dynamic equilibrium
of the charges, which create, through the vector potential,
long range (1/r) electric fields.  This leads to an exchange
of energy via the Stark effect, of magnitude sufficient to
account for gravitational forces.  Exchange of energy is basic
to force laws in physics.  The lowering of the potential energy
goes as 1/r, is additive and non-saturating, is very weak, and
leads to a force which is always attractive."

Collins does some math and comes to a conclusion about gravity,
which is corroborated by some experiments performed almost 100
years ago.  I think that is interesting...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 16:45:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18170;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:41:18 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:41:18 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b8da9741c6 [199.237.131.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:42:49 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: new toy at EarthTech!
Resent-Message-ID: <"RSnhh3.0.qR4.iioaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13783
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Last year this was Christmas shopping list time, this year Santa came early!


At 6:04 PM 12/12/97, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>
>In the past, we have made good use of our TEK720 digital oscilloscope which
>can monitor both voltage and current and multiply them in realtime to
>produce a power trace.  However, the TEK lacks somewhat in accuracy
>especially at higher voltages and frequencies.
>
>The most demanding application we've encountered thus far is the
>measurement of power delivered to an ultrasonic transducer.  These
>transducers typically operate at 20 kHz, several hundred milliamps, several
>hundred volts, and with a power factor that ranges from 0.3 to 0.7
>depending upon the load that is being driven.
>
>We discovered that the TEK720 could only get within 10% relative on this
>application!  As luck would have it, the TEK read LOW by 10% so we went
>through a semi-euphoric period of thinking that our experiments were
>producing 10% excess heat before we discovered the problem....8(
[snip]


I assume that is the Tektronics THS720 hand-held digital scope.

I am a bit concerned about the source of the problem using the 720.  I have
a very similar problem since many of my recent experiments have significant
phase shifts and transients, so I have been thinking about buying a
computer interface for my TDS220, and the Wavetek software.  It doesn't
seem the problem could be sampling rate limitations, assuming you have used
the right sampling speed, as the 720 can sample at 500 mega-samples per
second.  The voltage can't be off by 10% if the scope is calibrated.

Do you know the source of the 720 problem?

Were you using the Wavetek software, or homebrew, to calculate true V*I?

What was your scan (sampling) rate?

It is possible the Tek measurement was low due to reading one or more
complete cycles plus a partial cycle.  It seems like it would be necessary
to do a FFT to determine the fundamentalfrequency and then average V*I
value across some integer multiple of 1/f intervals.  Could alternatively
use voltage zero cross times to determine fundamental frequency if voltage
curve is smooth enough.

The Clarke-Hess Model 2330 must be very good at out of phase conditions
then, as the transducer is a capacitor?  Does it have a computer interface?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 17:42:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30861;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:31:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:31:51 -0800
Message-Id: <349336C9.2CAEAEC8 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:30:49 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC} Light Theories
References: <76F2A411E6 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zmhj32.0.1Y7.6Spaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13784
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Mike McDonald wrote:
> 
> A physics professor was arguing the possibilities of light actually
> having to vibrate in the fourth dimension to be "correct".
> 
> I came up with a small theory of my own.  Light could actually move
> in a circular pattern in the fourth dimension.  If it did, and it was
> projected relative to time and movement, it would make the exact same
> shape in three dimensions as a 3 dimensional-type sine/cosine
> function with only a small degree of thickness, which is they way
> light behaves!!!
> 
> What are all of your opinions on this theory (I haven't been keeping
> up with the latest ones, so  I hope that it is not taken.
> 
> Regards,
> 

Hi Mike,

This is my special area of  interest, theories... electromagnetics, more dimensions... :-)

Currently, electromagnetic theories are become enormously rich. large number of hypothesis are introducing are replacing or completing Maxwell equations, filling the gap between Quantum physics and classical electromagnetism. As being hypothesis, virtuall
y everything is allowed, possible. What you needed is build a mathematical model. Maybe you can do a short cut by examining available theories which match yours and  reflect your idea.

Even building a satisfactory model and assuring agreement with experiment, you should not expect a great audience for this. Because as I stated, there are to many theories which already there. Of course every satisfactory theory is a good part of the phys
ical reality.
What is needed next is unifying these theories to create versatile, universal one which every phenomena could be incorporated. There are already such a works, but they are mathematically beyond my abilities to really interpret them.

Once new theories becoming well instituted, low level mathematical models which apply to specific conditions will be done and we can use them in engineering level.

Of course you can skip some steps in your theory and predict some phenomena which match to yours but not explainable by classical terms.

Many phenomena discussed in this list have little or no theoretical support as they based experimentally. If you have such a experimental proposal, let we think and try on it.

This is very easy to find out tons of electromagnetic theories both introduced my academic theoreticians and both free lance on Internet.
If you find difficulties to find them, I can give you some references.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 17:49:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02413;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:48:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:48:53 -0800
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:43:20 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, rmuha@minimal.com,
        harti harti.com
Subject: Re: Hooper-Monstein experiment
In-Reply-To: <b6402677.34931180 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971213204203.13796A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"AAbmB1.0.Ib.4ipaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13785
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Jean,

	I looked at RQM site.  I did not see any description of the 
apparatus whichg uses RQM to make power.  Is there any real information, 
so we can try it ourselves?  Patent number?


					J

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, JNaudin509 wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have updated my web site with some very interesting tests results about the
> Hooper Monstein Effect and also about the RQM theory on Quantum Energy.
> 
> You will find all informations at :
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qermnu.htm
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jean-Louis Naudin
> 12/13/97 - 22:45GMT
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 17:52:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02676;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:50:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:50:53 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110717b0b8e828ae8e [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0b894f85052 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:50:42 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"iF2Lf1.0.kf.yjpaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13786
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Interesting!  At first glance these appear to be variations in the extreme.

The person who posted that stuff has about 100 pages of material, xeroxed
from old issues of the Philosophical Magazine.  We've discussed getting
copies made, or the possibility of scanning the stuff (although I didn't
realize he had so much material--too much to put on a website) so I haven't
read the material myself.

Brush was a pioneer in the arc lighting business.  His great-grandson (also
named Charles) is an active Tesla coiler builder. (High voltage must run
in the family. :-)  I've been in touch with him and found out that his
great-grandad published some books on his gravity research but I haven't
gotten any details on those, either.

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 18:12:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12558;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:09:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:09:15 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971213200526.0069c7d4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:05:26 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: new toy at EarthTech!
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0b8381b553f [199.237.131.229]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"VBw_L3.0.343.A_paq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13788
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 04:34 AM 12/13/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I assume that is the Tektronics THS720 hand-held digital scope.

Yes.

>I am a bit concerned about the source of the problem using the 720.  I have
>a very similar problem since many of my recent experiments have significant
>phase shifts and transients, so I have been thinking about buying a
>computer interface for my TDS220...

doesn't it already have an RS-232 port? an IEEE-488 port?

> and the Wavetek software.

Overpriced!...and I doubt it if will really do what you want it to.  It is
relatively straightforward to write an ordinary computer program in the
language of your choice to talk to the TEK scope and get the desired data
from it.  Can your scope multiply Ch1 X Ch2?

>It doesn't seem the problem could be sampling rate...

Correct.  The scope is super-fast compared to 20 kHz signals.

>The voltage can't be off by 10% if the scope is calibrated.

Interestingly it appears that it CAN be that far off, especially when using
TEK's high-voltage probes.   In the case of the THS720, they must've had to
compromise SOMETHING to pack the thing into its tiny sub-cigar-box package
and accuracy seems to be the scapegoat.

>Do you know the source of the 720 problem?

We carefully measured the voltage reading difference between the THS720 and
our reference meter, a Keithley 2000, and put the appropriate correction
factor into the computer program.  Even then, the THS720's idea of the
power did not agree satisfactorily with a good power analyzer.  It was as
if there was a significant delay in one of the THS720's channels which made
the realtime V*I product come out wrong.  The error was only 3-5% but it
was still quite noticeable.

>Were you using the Wavetek software, or homebrew, to calculate true V*I?

Homebrew software to read data from the THS720.  However, the THS720
performs the V*I multiplication and averaging of the resulting power
waveform over the entire display.

>What was your scan (sampling) rate?

Let's see, we typically set the time base on 20 microseconds/div so that 4
complete cycles of the 20 kHz waveform were displayed.  We used the full
2000 data points in the THS720's memory.  We did try changing the
horizontal time base to 2X faster and slower settings and did not observe
any significant change in the reported values.

>The Clarke-Hess Model 2330 must be very good at out of phase conditions
>then, as the transducer is a capacitor?

Yes, the CH2330 has separate 16-bit ADCs on the current and voltage inputs.
 It multiplies the signals together in real time just like the scope does
but it has been designed from the ground up to do the job with high
ACCURACY.  The THS720 has an 8-bit ADC and they really weren't concerned
with accuracy in the design process.  Usually a scope has done its job
perfectly if it can show you a reasonable facsimile of the waveform
graphically.

Yes, the piezo xducer is a capacitor.  When it is immersed in water to make
cavitation it has a large resistive nature as well, hence the power factor
is ~0.5.

> Does it have a computer interface?

Yep. It's an IEEE-488 interface.  Despite the widespread usage of this
interface, this was our first real encounter with it.  Since we wanted to
use the CH 2330 with several different computer systems around here, we
decided to purchase an IEEE-488 to RS-232 converter for it (all of our
computers have serial ports...none of them have IEEE-488 cards).  We chose
Keithley-Metrabyte's Model 500-SERIAL converter.  After about 3 hours of
the usual "interface hell" I figured out how to make it work perfectly.
Next week I'll post some actual data collected over this interface in
graphical form so you can SEE how well it works.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 18:15:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03768;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:09:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:09:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971213175453.0069af70 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:54:53 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: BLP calorimetry 
In-Reply-To: <6c3c70ca.34922893 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gmsqd3.0.ow.s_paq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13787
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to Vince for alerting us to the new, huge, report on the BLP web page.
	
http://www.blacklightpower.com/tinsight.html

I was pleased to find a drawing of the experiment that we are presently
planning to replicate.  It's the one described in Section 3.3.2 Isothermal
Calorimeter.  Please refer to this drawing.  According to BLP, they first
operate the cartridge heater until the temperature probe is giving them a
certain reading (~250C).  This takes about 90 watts. Then they apply power
to the W filament and reduce power to the cartridge heater as needed to
maintain the same temperature reading.  They observe that, when the
filament is getting about 40 watts, they can turn off the cartridge heater
completely and still maintain the same temperature reading. Their
conclusion:  the experiment is producing about 50 watts of excess heat.  

However, as you can see from the drawing, the W filament is CLOSER to the
temperature probe than the cartridge heater.  This concerns me.  Nominally,
they have run the necessary control experiments to prove that their
observations are not due simply to thermal distribution issues (e.g. H & K,
H &  no K, K & no H, no H & no K) but it concerns me that the "H & no K"
experiment shows about half the excess heat of the H & K experiment.  There
is a clue in the drawing that suggests they use He gas in the "no H"
experiments.  He has about 20% lower thermal conductivity than H...this
could be significant.

Does anyone have any additional details on this experiment?  Despite these
concerns, we are sufficiently impressed by the BLP data that we are
proceeding with our replication attempt.  More later.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 18:23:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14574;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:20:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:20:10 -0800
Message-Id: <34933E9C.8A3590D4 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:04:12 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Hooper-Monstein experiment
References: <b6402677.34931180 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dEHEy1.0.eZ3.O9qaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13789
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

JNaudin509 wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I have updated my web site with some very interesting tests results about the
> Hooper Monstein Effect and also about the RQM theory on Quantum Energy.
> 

Hi Naudin,

Yes, this interesting experiment you done is exactly  proofing what my Physics 2 book say on motional EMF.

I wrote it before on occasions and repeat once:

Change of magnetic flux trough an area, induce EMF on a loop covering this area.


On your experiment, as the magnets closing to each other and increasing the flux passing the loop which the DVM is connected an EMF is generated. An equal an opposite flux increasing outside the loop don't bother the result.

If you really want to cancel the EMF you should center magnets to center of the loop assuring total flux passing trough the loop does not change. Even this not seems be clear, this can you help to adjust carriage speeds, to keep symmetric the setup and ac
knowledge tolerance limits of your setup.

Of course, I have no argument against Oliver Crane's theory.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 19:37:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20059;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349344E2.677D earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:30:58 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, little@eden.com, rgeorge@hooked.net,
        sejones physics1.byu.edu, blue@pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        droege fnal.gov, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, g-miley@uiuc.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti_gcollins@msn.com
Subject: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uYYLY.0.Kv4.eBraq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13790
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 13, 1997

Dear all,   With Mike Carrell laying down travelling barrages, while
I've been cowering in my foxhole, with Scott Little poking me in the
ribs, I've finally had to do something...make a dash for some specific
data, the only safe refuge for a poor harassed skeptic.

Page 6, Fig. 6b: "Basic characteristic of closed cell with Pt anode-Pt
cathode":  Cell Power = (4.2 X MC X delta T) - (t X I X Vo), is graphed
against Qin = (t X I X Vo). [t seems to be a mere constant.]  Vo seems
to me to hint that the electric power input is at constant voltage,
delivering up to, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-130
watts."  For input watts 0, 20, 40-45, 56, 70-85, 90-135, the Cell Power
watts lies in a range from almost 2 to a bit over -2, with surprisingly
little change at each input power level.  Since Fig. 8c on Page 7 shows
that Qout [= 4.2 X MC X delta T, I surmise] is roughly somewhat more
than a linear function of Qin = t X I X Vo, then wouldn't we expect the
variation in Cell Power to grow roughly linearly with input power?  The
values at input power 0 range from about 1.5 to -.5 watt, so this must
be the intrinsic error of the calorimetry, whether from errors in
delta-T or variations in flow rate or other factors.  I'd appreciate
some input from calorimeter experts as to the possible significance of
this relative constancy of the absolute error variation at input powers
up to 135 watts.

Again, I note, as I have over and over, that we are not given such
details as the actual input and output T values and delta T values, the
actual voltages, currents, and resistances, the total amount of cooling
water, the actual flow rates and variations of flow rates, the number
and timing of calibrations, during four years of runs.

Scott Little of EarthTech International in Austin, Texas, has on his
website a detailed, complete descriptions of his dual method
calorimeter. A number of four-day runs are graphed with continuous
records of input voltage [with constant current], Power ouput via flow
calorimetry, Power output via Newton's Law of Cooling, Power input, and
Room temperature.  Temperatures are measured to +-.2 degree C.  Flow was
manually checked to be 23.4+-0.4 ml/min, or +-1.7%.  This system had a
detection limit of about 0.1 watts. The air bath was stirred by two
fans, and its temperature determined by the average of three sensors.
[http://www.eden.com/~little/dual.htm]

Fig. 8b on Page 7 shows 900 hours of Cell Power for the 5 gm Pd-Black
cathode, going from about 10 to as high as 80 KJ/hr.  [36 KJ/hr = 10
watts.]  Not mentioned are previous data, on page 11 of Infinite Energy,
May-June, 1995, for the 5 gm cathode, for 2700 hours, not including a
two weeks elapsed initial period, which varies repeatedly from about 10
to -10 KJ/hr for the first three days graphed, and plunges down in a
spike from 60 to -5 to 90 KJ/hr at 2200 hours.

Fig. 8c shows the ratio for the 900 hours of data as Qout = 4.2 X MC X
delta T versus Qin = t X I X Vo, both in watts, with over fifty points
from 87 to 137 watts input.  This indicates that very many input power
levels were applied.  We have no details for the actual power input
history of the 900 hours, or for the duration of each power input level.
Obviously, most of the striking variations in Cell Power in Fig. 8b
could be from variations in input power. Likewise, until this issue is
explicitly clarified, the skeptic has to assume that the other graphs of
Cell Power have the same problem.

Scott Little kept his input power levels, continuously recorded, at
constant levels, usually for a day or more.  His graphs show that his
flow calorimetry can take up to two hours to stabilize, when the input
power is raised about 20% from a level of about .6 watt [cell with
ersatz Pd/Ni/Pd beads, on web site].

Fig. 9 on Page 8: "Relation between pressure Pc [atm] inside
"Particles-Gap", and cell power (excess energy) (KJ/hr)", for 1600 hour
run of an [undescribed] Double Structure cathode, DS-K, which shows
pressure rising three times from 0 to as much as 800 atm.  At 0 to about
120 hours, Cell Power rises to about 20 KJ/hr and then varies at that
level until 350 hr, while the pressure rises steeply to 600 atm.  There
is no clear correlation of pressure and power for these first five days.

Then after 300 hours the power rises steeply to about 40 KJ/hr,
fluctuates, while the pressure levels off at 800 atm, until at about 30
KJ/hr at 700 hours, the power is off for 2 hours.  [It is not clear if
only the electrolysis power was off, or also the cooling flow.]  The
pressure dipped a little, almost 100 atm, while power dropped to 15
KJ/hr, fluctuated at that level for about a day, then jumped to 25
KJ/hr.  So, there was in this event again, no correlation of pressure
and power, especially since pressure continued to decline steadily upon
resumption of power.  Cell Power did not rise until a day after
resumpiton of power, even though pressure was nearly 700 atm.

By 900 hours pressure had declined steadily and smoothly to 500 atm, and
power was fluctuating at 20 KJ/hr, when power was off for 52 hours. 
Pressure fell steeply to less than 100 atm, and power fell to 10 KJ/hr.
Then power jumped immediately to 30 KJ/hr and fluctuated at that level
until 1200 hours, while pressure rose, as in the first ten days,  to
over 400 atm.  Again, there is no correlation between pressure and
power.

Then power was off for 86 hours.  Pressure fell steeply and smoothly to
about 50 atm, while power fell to 10 KJ/hr.  Then, power jumped to the
30 KJ/hr level and rose to 40 KJ/hr by 1600 hours, while pressure rose
more quickly than before to a peak of about 700 atm at about 1500 hr,
and then started falling steeply to 500 atm.  Again, there was no
correlation between pressure and power: in all three mid-run startups,
substantial power appeared before pressure rose appreciably.

Interpretation is made difficult, since we are not sure how many
different power levels were applied during this complex run.  No
explanation for the three power interruptions was given, or for the
final decline in pressure.  Certainly, there is no evidence to indicate
a positive correlation between pressure in the Pd-Black inside the Pd
cathode, which may be correlated with level of deuterium loading, and
Cell Power.  This weakens the case for deuterium nuclear reactions, and
so points in the direction of calorimeter error or unknown artifacts.

As one,  Rich Murray
Room For All
1943  Otowi Drive
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505-986-9103
rmforall earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 21:14:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07730;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971214050110.008bec20 mail.eskimo.com>
X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:01:10 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Gary Hawkins <ghawk eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch
Resent-Message-ID: <"njrio3.0.eu1.nUsaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13791
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>At 10:56 PM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote:
>>Does anyone have information (or where I can get info) on 
>>a device known as the atomic hydrogen torch?
>>
>>My web searches have turned up nothing.


        http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 23:00:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12718;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:55:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:55:47 -0800
Message-ID: <34939F15.55DC keelynet.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:55:49 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Death of Dr. Paul Brown
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cR-Ii3.0.Y63.oBuaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13792
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Folks!

I regret to inform you that Dr. Paul Brown, inventor of the Resonant 
Nuclear Battery was killed in an explosion on December 12th.  Details are 
posted at;

      http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pbrown.htm

courtesy of his friend and partner, Ronald Dandy.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 13 23:40:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28079;
	Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b937f6c8fc [199.237.131.234]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:35:33 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: new toy at EarthTech!
Resent-Message-ID: <"v6vHm3.0.ds6.cluaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13793
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:05 PM 12/13/97, Scott Little wrote:
>At 04:34 AM 12/13/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
... I have been thinking about buying a
>>computer interface for my TDS220...
>
>doesn't it already have an RS-232 port? an IEEE-488 port?

No it is billed as the digital scope at the price of an analog.  They cut
corners everywhere and left the fancy stuff for the software option.

[snip]
... Can your scope multiply Ch1 X Ch2?

No.


[snip]
>
>>Were you using the Wavetek software, or homebrew, to calculate true V*I?
>
>Homebrew software to read data from the THS720.  However, the THS720
>performs the V*I multiplication and averaging of the resulting power
>waveform over the entire display.


That may be the problem. Your V*I may be low due to reading one or more
complete cycles plus a partial cycle.  It seems like it would be necessary
to do a FFT to determine the fundamentalfrequency and then average V*I
value across some integer multiple of 1/f intervals.  Could alternatively
use voltage zero cross times to determine fundamental frequency if voltage
curve is smooth enough.  An 8 bit D/A should be accurate to 1%.  The 5V
square wave calibration trace looks very good on mine for accuracy, at
least on display, with either HV or regular probes.  I regularly use a
probe rated at 100 mHz and 2500 V(P + DC) for voltage.


>
>>What was your scan (sampling) rate?
>
>Let's see, we typically set the time base on 20 microseconds/div so that 4
>complete cycles of the 20 kHz waveform were displayed.


If your AC was exactly 20 kHz then it sounds OK what you did, no partial
wave form.  Would not work in general though.


[snip]
>Next week I'll post some actual data collected over this interface in
>graphical form so you can SEE how well it works.
>
>
>Scott Little

Thanks for the info.  Looking forward to pictures. (Somewhat enviously.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 01:56:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13604;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:52:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 01:52:54 -0800 (PST)
From: JNaudin509 <JNaudin509 aol.com>
Message-ID: <f0d87065.3493ac19 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 04:51:19 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Meeting with RQM technologies.
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"MZ_2N1.0.TK3.qnwaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13794
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi All,

After my Conference on FreeNRG in Zuerich on Saturday Dec 6,  I have met Jean-
Marie Lehner, president of RQM, in his office on Monday Dec 8.
Mr Lehner has presented to me all the RQM theories and principles and also the
Oliver Crane's model of our universe. Mr Lehner has kindly given to me the
video about RQM and I have also the main book of Oliver Crane's theory
"Zentraler Oszillator und Raum-Quanten Medium" which is very interesting and
which contains many experiments.

After this meeting we have also visited the RQM labs, I have seen latest RQM
generator running which "seems" to produce free power from the Quantum Vacuum
Field and I have also discussed with the reseachers team. Mr Lehner has shown
to me some demonstrations of some previous release of RQM prototypes.
Today, I cannot say anymore about the RQM generator principle because these
are confidential informations.

But I suggest you to study carefully the Oliver Crane's theories which contain
the main principle of the RQM generator.
The RQM generator is patented in Switzerland WO97/41970 "Method and device for
producing electromagnetic pulses" and also patented in many other countries.

The main RQM web site is at : http://www.rqm.ch

As far as I am concerned, I work closely with RQM and my purpose is to check
and understand, step by step, the main Oliver Crane's model and theory. Thus,
I need to conduct many experiments which will be published on my web site
soon. You will find also some videos and pictures about this. Today you will
find only the Hooper-Monstein experiment, but now, I am working on the
Monstein-Barnett Experiment.

At :http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qermnu.htm

For those who are interested, I can create a small virtual Teamwork about the
Quantum Energy researches and experiments, simply let me know.

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin
12/14/97 - 09:50GMT

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 05:09:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20933;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:07:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:07:12 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712141306.HAA15558 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:06:09 (-050
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC}
CC: vortex-L eskimo.com
Priority: normal
References: <76F2A411E6 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
In-reply-to: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971213161402.26766A-100000 server.uwindsor.ca>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gwo8J.0._65.-dzaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13795
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jim, Mike,

> Date:          Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:43:04 -0500 (EST)
> From:          "Soltis James Dr." <soltis server.uwindsor.ca>
> 
> Although I'm only half-way thru it , I recommend "HYPERSPACE" by
> Michio Kaku.For about 15US$ , here is a GREAT book .Don't be
> putoff( pun ) by the name, the guy is an excellent writer.

Yup, some have called him the successor to Carl Sagan as a media 
celebrity for science.  I hope so, because he isn't so quick to dismiss 
uncommon ideas out-of-hand.  Maybe that's a characteristic of theoretical 
physicists who are also talk-show hosts. :) 

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 05:10:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21163;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:09:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:09:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
Message-ID: <66193cab.3493da11 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:07:26 EST
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: viv ictus.demon.co.uk, bracewell@nova.stanford.edu, Spelve@aol.com,
        jmb cs.su.oz.au, mwhitten@cyllene.uwa.edu.au
Subject: Dangers of potassium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"GsBuu3.0.YA5.ifzaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13796
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi -all
My posting on this subject was a joke - don't you Yanks have 
a sense of humo(u)r??

John Berry says that all atoms of Z<19 are transmutable at
low energies - any refs. on this?  Maybe this is what I am
seeing, but I have no means of telling.

Thanks to Frederick Sparber for the info on carbon 14.  We
have no means of knowing whether the carbon in my K2CO3
is ancient or modern.  I tried a 56-gram lump of coal on my
alpha window and got 37.9 cpm with coal, 35.7 without, over
10-min. periods.  This is not significant, the standard deviation
being about 2 cpm.  This is ancient carbon with the C14 long gone,
but there may be other radionuclides in there.  If I had some
barbecue charcoal (modern C) I could try this, but it would also
contain potassium.

This reminds me of a scandal about port wine which took place
some time ago.  The wine is fortified with extra alcohol, supposedly
from brandy or other grape spirits, but C14 analysis showed that
a lot of the alcohol in it was ancient, i.e. derived from mineral oil.
They had been using industrial alcohol for fortification.

Terry is correct about the ban on meat on the bone.  It is a panic
reaction by our government to a very dubious 'scientific' report.
It has been calculated that you stand a better chance of winning
the national lottery six times in a row on a single weekly ticket
than of catching mad cow disease from it.  The government is
destroying our livestock industry under pressure from our
European 'partners'.

As for dihydrogen monoxide, it is indeed a highly dangerous
substance.  It is found in the tumo(u)rs of terminal cancer patients,
you know!

Merry Xmas and enjoy your T-bones, ribs, etc. - George.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 05:26:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12612;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:23:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:23:31 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214082409.0073d808 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:24:09 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
Cc: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
In-Reply-To: <19971213120917510.AAA207 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"h8YNR1.0.-43.Itzaq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13797
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


   At 11:51 PM 12/12/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:
>Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. You had a 500 g batch and got a reading 7x
>over background. Big deal. Do you have any idea what the total potassium
>content of a healthy human body is? 

 Although the initial post was probably with tongue-in-cheek,
both the matter of prions, and K40 as an internal radiation
source is real.   


 Potassium is mainly in the intracellular fluid which comprises
about 40% of body weight.  Potassium is ubiquitous, and human
deficiency of it does not generally exist.

 In the human adult there are ~69 milliequivalents per
kilogram of fat-free tissue.  Some tissues have more 
(e.g. muscle with 110 meq/liter, spleen with 130 meq/l)

   Potassium 40 is radioactive, but we have evolved and lived
with these small levels which are called "internal background"
Potassium 40 is the greatest source of such internal background
radiation to which we are exposed normally from our birth.

  The ionizing radiation dose from K40 to our
gonads is about 20 millirads per year from K40, a dose slightly
lower than that from cosmic rays (external background radiation).

  Carbon 14's contribution as suggested in a previous post?
  Not as much.  It creates a dose of only about 5% of our internal
background radiation from K40.

  Hope that clarifies.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 05:38:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15631;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:37:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:37:01 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214083740.0070a594 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:37:40 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: New Yorker on "Pathological Science"
In-Reply-To: <3483772D.738C math.ucla.edu>
References: <199712012026.PAA20552 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"CG3bA2.0.9q3.y3-aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13799
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 06:49 PM 12/1/97 -0800, Barry wrote:
>
>The book is excellent. Based on its content, I can't imagine
>Rhodes arguing that "prions"---or more precisely, whatever the
>real infectious agent underlying spungeform diseases is, prions
>being one strong candidate---are not a real threat. However,
>Rhodes does argue very directly in the book that Pruisner
>does not *deserve credit* for the discovery of prions....by
>Rhodes account, Pruisner was more of an oppurtunist who built a 
>career around the Prion theory, and set himself about displacing
>credit from other people to further his own career goals,
>while the key experimental
>and theoretical foundations were layed by the doctor (and
>earlier Nobelist) who investigated Kiru disease, and a british
>mathematician in the 1960's who argued for the possibility 
>on non-dna based infectious organisms behind cerebral 
>spungeform diseases.
>

  Perhaps you mean kuru?
  Kuru  (pronounced  koooo-ruuu) is a disease, presumed to be
caused by a "slow virus" which lives in human brain,
and is transferred by eating brain.

   Mitchell Swartz   (mica world.std.com)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 05:41:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26802;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 05:32:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214083230.006e6574 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:32:30 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Definitions of over unity
In-Reply-To: <3489E9F9.182D math.ucla.edu>
References: <199712062327.SAA11934 mercury.mv.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"kXVVa.0.hY6.-_zaq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13798
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


   At 04:12 PM 12/6/97 -0800, Barry Merriman wrote:
>E.F. Mallove wrote:
>> There is too much evidence
>> now for O/U with a/c input to dismiss him [Meyer] entirely.
>> 
>
>Huh? There is *NO* scientificly validated evidence for O/U 
>performance of anything, as far as I know.


  Depends upon definition.

  If o/u includes mc^2 --> E conversions,  then we have the 
following, and it is admitted that many disagree, but this
list is based upon detailed examination of the scientific
data, can be changed with submission of evidence.  A


  SYSTEM             Over Unity performance     Breakeven
=========================================================
  nuclear power          yes                    yes
  hot fusion             yes/no (*)             no
  cold fusion (Pd,D2O)   yes                    no
  cold fusion (Ni,H2O)   yes                    no
  cold fusion (muon)     ?                      no
  shock wave fluid flow  no                     no
  coupled electromechanical
                         no                     no
  photoelectric          no                     no



  The definition of breakeven here indicates net
free power beyond that required to form the loop from
output to input, including all dissipation and losses.

  The definition of o/u implies output over all input.
In the case of hot fusion some critics include the energies
used for the magnetic confinement, and/or other secondary
energy dissipation systems.  

  (*) There are recent reports of overunity with hot fusion,
but it has not been confirmed as has cold fusion in a 
second laboratory, and has not undergone the rigorous
dissection by skeptics as has cold fusion. 


  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)
  JET Energy Technology










From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 06:54:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02801;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:50:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:50:40 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:50:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971214095003_-1303120376 mrin52>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: XSH & Precision Calorimetry
Resent-Message-ID: <"zB3N43.0.hh._8_aq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13803
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rich Murray wrote, "What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase
in the precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
observed effect."

Where does that assertion come from?  Who has ever reported an experimental
correlation between greater calorimetric precision and less excess heat?

If that correlation was ever reported in a newsgroup, was it ever published,
either in a conference proceedings or in a peer-reviewed journal?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 06:56:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12383;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]>
In-Reply-To: <b6402677.34931180 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:50:15 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RQM energy device
Resent-Message-ID: <"2-DCM.0.P13.a7_aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13801
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Someone asked about Swiss francs. They're trading at 1.437 per US dollar,
or about 70 cents each. A 10kw RQM unit selling for 30,000 SF would cost
about $21,000. Amortize that (include the minimal time-value of the money
spent) against typical household electricity consumption - I doubt many of
us would live to see breakeven.

But you could say "hey man, I'm off the grid!", and somewhere a child would
not get lung disease.

*** IF *** it works...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 06:56:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12302;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:49:03 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:07:21 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd080b$1a8db940$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"WBwD71.0.-_2.P7_aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13800
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment


>At 10:54 AM 12/13/97, ralph muha wrote:
>[snip]
>>>
>>>Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>>>attraction between masses):
>>>
>>>Aluminum    130
>>>Zinc        100
>>>Tin         100
>>>Lead         93
>>>Silver       80
>>>Bismuth      72
>>>
>>>Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.
>
>
>Interesting!  At first glance these appear to be variations in the extreme.
>What do the numbers represent?  Certainly not time periods.  A clock with
>a brass pendulum keeps the same time as one using lead, so I don't
>understand the numbers.  They reflect some kind of small difference value?

Yeah, but brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and the period of a pendulum;
T = 2(pi)*(l/g)^1/2 is independent of the mass.    :-)

If you allow that the atoms are made up of "circularized string" sub-units
5A - 2Z "quarks" with radius r = k*q^2/w
for each unit, and a "loop current" i = q*f for each unit interacting with
another mass made up of different atoms through a time-dilated magnetic
field: Fg = G*m1*m2/r^2

But, G (6.67E-11) factors out to a magnetic force property:
1.0E-7* 0.02583 ampere-meters/kilogram where the 1.0E-7 is in newtons of
force between conductors one meter long
separated one meter with 1 ampere flowing in each in the same direction.

Thus if the nucleus is a "stack" of widthless circles with the positive
quarks rotating clockwise and the negative quarks rotating counter-clockwise
the "loop currents" i are
all going in the same direction thus making a solenoid of
the nucleus with the net magnetic dipole creating the gravitational
properties of matter.

We know from the net nuclear magnetic moment of a nucleus that not all of
the quarks have the same energy (around 312 Mev each). And we know from
playing with magnetic doggies
that magnets free in space WILL ALWAYS ALIGN TO ATTRACT, that is a law of
nature, do otherwise requires the expenditure of energy.

Since the "wave velocity" in the quarks is very close to c or the phase
velocity c/alpa or 137*c is giving gravitational magnetism it's going to
take some special type of magnetic fields to interact with the "loop
current"
magnetism-gravity of particles.

With 0.02583 ampere-meters/kilogram the Earth at 5.98E24 Kg
acts as a cuurent loop of 0.2583*5.98E24 = 1.544E23 ampere-meters located at
6.38E6 meters from the surface.

Thus to get one newton of Antigravity force you would need an anigrav
current loop i2 of:
i2 = 1/(1.0E-7*1.544E23)/(6.38E6)^2 = 0.0026 ampere-meters or about 4.6
ampere-meters for a "Buck Rogers" type
anti-grav belt.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick

>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 06:58:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12593;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 19:55:27 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd083b$bbba8de0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"cUAhq1.0.a43.B8_aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13802
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

For your contemplation, Horace.

The "loop current" in a particle should be q*f where
frequency f = w/h or (c/2(pi)r)*alpha. For an electron this
is 1.602E-19*1.23E20 = 19.86 amperes and since 2(pi)r
is 1.77E-14 meters the "magnetostatic" value is 3.5E-13
ampere-meters.

The 3.5E-13 ampere-meter value will hold as a constant for any
"quark",regardless of mass/energy.

Then the force F = 1.0E-7 *(3.5E-13)^2 at one meter separation is 1.23E-32
newtons, but for 2 electrons at a separation distance of one meter F =
6.67E-11*(9.1E-31)^2
= 5.5E-71 newtons, indicating that there is a relativistic
time dilation of (1.23E-32/5.5E-71)^1/2 = 1.5E19 for each
electron, thus a very weak gravitational force. Same thing applies for
heavier "quarks" but the relativistic time dilation is less.

I'm hung up on the 137c phase velocity. "Warp 137" even beats Star Trek,
doesn't it?   :-)

At any rate the 0.02583 ampere-meters/kilogram magnetic
gravity constant is what one should work with, because that
is what "Big G" 6.67E-11 factors out to:
1.0E-7*(0.02583)^2  or 0.02583 ampere-meters/kilogram.

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 06:58:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13298;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:52:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:52:08 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:01:27 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0890$63ba2ba0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Qdb-l1.0.XF3.FA_aq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13804
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Given that honey found in the tombs of the pyramids was still eatable after
4,000 years, and the claims that Mead (a fermented honey-water mix)is
reputed to have favorable medicinal value, is it possible that honey and/or
the wax it is stored in are Natural antibiotics?

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 08:10:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29099;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:07:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:07:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34940436.226E interlaced.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:07:18 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?
References: <01bd0890$63ba2ba0$LocalHost default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ubEUF1.0.b67.RH0bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13805
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> 
 is it possible that honey and/or
> the wax it is stored in are Natural antibiotics?
> 

That's what the printed placemats down at the corner restaurant say, 
Fred.   (Of course, they also sell bee-product-derived health stuff.)

Frank S.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 08:58:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08440;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:56:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214105511.006b4524 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:11 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: XSH & Precision Calorimetry
In-Reply-To: <971214095003_-1303120376 mrin52>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QEUb52.0.o32.h-0bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13806
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:50 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>Rich Murray wrote, "What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase
>in the precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
>observed effect."

I've never seen this observation formally presented/defended but it sure
feels that way to me, too.  Roughly speaking it _seems_ like we had
boil-overs and meltdowns in the early days...now we have only ~10% excess
heat.  

My perception could easily be distorted here.  How can we quantify this?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 09:46:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17186;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:42:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:42:55 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:38:42 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd08b7$1efee2e0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fl_ew3.0.RC4.Sg1bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13807
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?


>Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>
> is it possible that honey and/or
>> the wax it is stored in are Natural antibiotics?
>>
>
>That's what the printed placemats down at the corner restaurant say,
>Fred.   (Of course, they also sell bee-product-derived health stuff.)
>
>Frank S.
>
Could you quote the placemats, Frank?  :-)

I picked up a cute little clear plastic jar (24 oz shaped like a bear) of
honey at the store the other day because I knew the grandkids would love the
jar. I put some in my coffee, seems like it allowed me to cut back on my
asthma inhaler by at least half. Then I see an article on ABC that most
asthma conditions may be a bacterial infection treatable with antibiotics.

I picked up the asthma thing a couple of years back following an upper
respiratory infection and "walking pneumonia" picked up on a tour.

You never see Winnie The Pooh popping antibiotics, do you? :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 10:29:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29846;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:24:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:24:00 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214132434.006ad754 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:24:34 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: XSH & Precision Calorimetry
In-Reply-To: <971214095003_-1303120376 mrin52>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"w9Qhr.0.BI7.-G2bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13808
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 09:50 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Tom Stolper wrote:
>Rich Murray wrote, "What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase
>in the precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
>observed effect."
>
>Where does that assertion come from?  Who has ever reported an experimental
>correlation between greater calorimetric precision and less excess heat?
>

  It sounds made up to me.  

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 10:39:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01294;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:35:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:35:58 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0b9ccd18c89 [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:38:13 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"wJN1G.0.7K.CS2bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13809
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:07 PM 12/13/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>
>Yeah, but brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and the period of a pendulum;
>T = 2(pi)*(l/g)^1/2 is independent of the mass.    :-)
>
[snip]

The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
of gravity:

    F=g*m1*m2/d^2

is actually:

    F=g1*g2*m1*m2/d^2

with g2 the aggregate g for the earth, then the force at displacement x of
the pendulum is:

    F=(m*g1*g2/l)*x.

If we substitute (m*g1*g2/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
motion, i.e.:

   T=2*Pi*(m/k)^0.5

then we get:

   T=2*Pi*(l/g1*g2)^0.5

so differing g values for materials should show up in T, true?

I'll grant that if the inirtia m is affected by g1 proportioanally, then
the period of harmonic motion is affected proportionately, but the
assertion was that inirtia is affected even more, therefore T must vary
based on material.

In other words,we can say that materials have a true mass Mt, and that they
have inirtial force Mt*g1 and gravitational force determined by Mt*g3.
That being the case the formula for simple harmonic motion becomes:

   T=2*Pi*(Mt*g3/k)^0.5

and we substitute (Mt*g1*g2/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
motion to obtain:

   T=2*Pi*(g3*l/g1*g2)^0.5

therefore the harmonic motion is affected as (g3/g1)^0.5.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 10:53:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28847;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:50:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0b9d8b156b2 [199.237.131.222]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:52:11 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: XSH & Precision Calorimetry
Resent-Message-ID: <"Xu1OV.0.f27.uf2bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13810
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>At 09:50 AM 12/14/97 -0500, Tom Stolper wrote:
>>Rich Murray wrote, "What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase
>>in the precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
>>observed effect."
>>
>>Where does that assertion come from?  Who has ever reported an experimental
>>correlation between greater calorimetric precision and less excess heat?
>>
>
>  It sounds made up to me.
>
>  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


It sounds self evident to me - provided the error is systematic, or the
error is random, but selected results are published. If a systematic error
results in high values for energy out, and the error tolerance is reduced,
then the excess heat, if it is all error, will be reduced  proportionately.
If the error is by selection, then there will simply be less good results
to chose from.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 10:56:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03870;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:52:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:52:20 -0800
Message-ID: <34942912.2B55 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:44:34 -0600
From: Craig Haynie <ccHaynie ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP calorimetry
References: <3.0.1.32.19971213175453.0069af70 mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8jLlV1.0.Oy.Zh2bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13811
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:

> Does anyone have any additional details on this experiment?  Despite these
> concerns, we are sufficiently impressed by the BLP data that we are
> proceeding with our replication attempt.  More later.

Have you tried calling them and establishing a conversation with them
directly? They might be very open about it. If you have tried, and they
refused to cooperate, did they give any reasons?

Hasta,

Craig Haynie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 10:57:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04324;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:47 -0800
Message-ID: <34942BE4.6A82E55D dcache.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:56:37 -0500
From: "James J, Jiamachello" <jiamache dcache.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SjX5c2.0.O31.mk2bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13812
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Frederick wrote
>
>... is it possible that honey and/or the wax
>it is stored in are Natural antibiotics?
>

Yes, I agree.

Would not be surprised if the potassium content in honey acted like the
colloidal silver on bacteria.

Honey is rich in potassium and is an ingredient in many home remedies.
Pure apple cider vinegar is also high in potassium, the combination of
apple cider vinegar, honey in water is an old arthritis folk remedy.  It
seems the
potassium and calcium balance in the body is assisted by it.

I have chewed local beeswax like gum to help clear my sinuses.  The
beeswax contains local pollen and flower remnants.  Once injested, I
believe the body compensates for a low dose of pollen, then desensitizes
the body to the airborn pollen.

Jim

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 13:06:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24122;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:01:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:01:42 -0800
From: "Mike McDonald" <McDonalM asms1X.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Organization: AR School for Math & Science
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:57:06 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC}
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a)
Message-ID: <8FF0DE74CE asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Resent-Message-ID: <"qGT4Y.0.mu5.ra4bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13813
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In response, I have to agree that HYPERSPACE is a great book.  It 
discusses many theories that are well backed up.  However, as a successor to 
Carl Sagan, I would tend not to agree.  He has done much less damage 
to the profession of science than Mr. Sagan has.  



> Yup, some have called him the successor to Carl Sagan as a media 
> celebrity for science.  I hope so, because he isn't so quick to dismiss 
> uncommon ideas out-of-hand.  Maybe that's a characteristic of theoretical 
> physicists who are also talk-show hosts. :) 
> 
> -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)
> 
> 



Micheal P. McDonald
Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences
McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 13:20:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25876;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:16:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:16:43 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311071eb0b9fcd1aedb [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <8FF0DE74CE asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:16:21 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC}
Resent-Message-ID: <"jlikH1.0.8K6.wo4bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13814
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>In response, I have to agree that HYPERSPACE is a great book.  It
>discusses many theories that are well backed up.  However, as a successor to
>Carl Sagan, I would tend not to agree.  He has done much less damage
>to the profession of science than Mr. Sagan has.

he's also been appearing quite frequently on the Art Bell radio show.
(not sure if this is good or bad... ;-)

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 13:49:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14029;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:41:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:41:13 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:37:52 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd08d8$88218c20$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"sS_Us2.0.7R3.s95bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13815
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: James J, Jiamachello <jiamache dcache.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 11:46 AM
Subject: Off Topic; Are Honey/Beeswax Natural Antibiotics?


>>Frederick wrote
>>
>>... is it possible that honey and/or the wax
>>it is stored in are Natural antibiotics?
>>
>
>Yes, I agree.
>
>Would not be surprised if the potassium content in honey acted like the
>colloidal silver on bacteria.
>
>Honey is rich in potassium and is an ingredient in many home remedies.
>Pure apple cider vinegar is also high in potassium, the combination of
>apple cider vinegar, honey in water is an old arthritis folk remedy.  It
>seems the
>potassium and calcium balance in the body is assisted by it.
>
>I have chewed local beeswax like gum to help clear my sinuses.  The
>beeswax contains local pollen and flower remnants.  Once injested, I
>believe the body compensates for a low dose of pollen, then desensitizes
>the body to the airborn pollen.
>
>Jim

Thanks much for the advice, Jim. I will look around for a local source of
the wax. I'm partial to buckwheat honey, but haven't seen
any fields of buckwheat out here in the West.

Frank Stenger probably sees fields of it in Northeastern Ohio though, when
he's out rolling in clover.   :-)

Regards,      Frederick
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 13:53:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14812;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:51:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:51:50 -0800 (PST)
From: biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
Message-Id: <199812142150.WAA02925 mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Computer stolen
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 22:50:15 MET
In-Reply-To: <v01510101b0b81716dc2c [195.132.13.203]>; from "JEAN DELAGARDE" at Dec 13, 97 9:39 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Resent-Message-ID: <"iVN8-.0.Ed3.lJ5bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13816
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi,

I am not proud of it, but Saturday, while in the metro in Paris, someone stole my great Mac PowerBook computer 3400! It was  a great machine, expensive plus with all kinds of data, and Email messages in it. Obviously I did not have a back up copy of it, s
o I lost everything! I had just ordered an internal Zip drive for that purpose. After the initial shock that filled me of guilt, (the rape syndrom : the raped woman feels guilty) I got back to my senses, and checked what was still working: basically every
thing except my compuetr that was gone... 

I felt like coming out of a crash checking what was still operational : I could move my hands, arms, feet , legs... Well I was OK!!

One of the problems I have, is that I have lost lots of E-mail addresses, and I had some messages waiting for replies when I was going to have time.

So please all of you who feel that I did not answer your mails repost your messages.

Conclusion:

I could loose more than a computer!

Jean-Paul Biberian
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 14:59:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13005;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:55:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:55:34 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:53:08 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd08e3$0c2fcea0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"QCMpe1.0.7B3.aF6bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13817
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment


>At 2:07 PM 12/13/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>Yeah, but brass is an alloy of copper and zinc and the period of a
pendulum;
>>T = 2(pi)*(l/g)^1/2 is independent of the mass.    :-)
>>
>[snip]
>
>The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
>of gravity:
>
>    F=g*m1*m2/d^2

I assume that the g used here is "Big G"
(6.67E-11 N-m^2/kg^2)?
>
>is actually:
>
>    F=g1*g2*m1*m2/d^2

Is g2 G2? If it is G*G2 = G^2 ?
>
>with g2 the aggregate g for the earth, then the force at displacement x of
>the pendulum is:
>
>    F=(m*g1*g2/l)*x.
>
>If we substitute (m*g1*g2/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
>motion, i.e.:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(m/k)^0.5
>
>then we get:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(l/g1*g2)^0.5
>
>so differing g values for materials should show up in T, true?
>
>I'll grant that if the inirtia m is affected by g1 proportioanally, then
>the period of harmonic motion is affected proportionately, but the
>assertion was that inirtia is affected even more, therefore T must vary
>based on material.
>
>In other words,we can say that materials have a true mass Mt, and that they
>have inirtial force Mt*g1 and gravitational force determined by Mt*g3.

Mass IS the inertial resistance to acceleration.

In a particle spin mvr creates the mass.

In the collision of a photon with a brick m*c = E/c or
E = mc^2 :-).

It can be shown quite simply that mass m = f*r/c^2 for a wave moving in a
circle, ie., a particle is just trapped photons. But, don't forget to duck
if you see a golf ball
coming at you at 50 meters/second.   :-)

>That being the case the formula for simple harmonic motion becomes:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(Mt*g3/k)^0.5
>
>and we substitute (Mt*g1*g2/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
>motion to obtain:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(g3*l/g1*g2)^0.5
>
>therefore the harmonic motion is affected as (g3/g1)^0.5.
>
>Regards,

An interesting arguement, can you defend it?  :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 15:39:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19402;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:35:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:35:04 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0ba1e0ea5aa [199.237.131.222]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:37:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"WjoEp1.0.wk4.dq6bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13818
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>
>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?


The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
Calculating intial values:

a = 0.4181076 deg
s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3

Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):

Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(tan((s-a)/2))^3)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = (3.323141156x10^-11)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = 5.764669249x10^-6
E/4 = 3.302912183x10^-4 deg.
E = 1.321164873x10^-3 deg.

Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:

As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)

Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:

Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E

There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
Nt/2 spokes, therefore:

Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.321164873x10^-3

Ns = 272,486 = maximum number of spokes


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 17:07:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08121;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:00:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:00:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530503b0ba274dd1c5 [199.237.131.226]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:01:48 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"qtEiD.0.p-1.R48bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13819
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Let me try that one more time!   It's difficult adjusting to a new
paradigm, and I have too many things going on at once here.

The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
of gravity:

    F=G*m1*m2/d^2

is in the new paradigm actually:

    F=G1*G2*m1*m2/d^2

with G2 the aggregate "G" for the earth. There is no longer a true unique G
except historically or normatively in this paradigm.  The strength of the
gravitational field at the surface of the earth is still just plain g, but
to calculate the actual force we must adjust some measure of "true mass"
Mt1 of the affected object by a factor Fg1 = G1/G to obtain observed
gravitational mass Mg1 = Mt1*Fg1.

To obtain the apparent mass of acceleration Ma1 for object 1 we have Ma1=
Mt1*Fa1, the same mass Mt is multiplied by Fa1 = a1/a, where a1 is
acceleration observed at constant force by the true mass unit Mt1 vs the
acceleration a observed for typical aggregate mass with Fg1=1.   The true
mass Mt of an object must then be based on some uniform property, like
number of atoms, or fundamental particles of differing kinds.  The
adjustment factors Fa and Fg would be unique for each particle, and would
be a weighted sum for a gross object.

The force at displacement x of the pendulum then is:

    F=(Mt*Fg*g/l)*x.

If we substitute (Mt*Fg*g/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
motion, i.e.:

   T=2*Pi*(Mt*Fa/k)^0.5

then we get:

   T=2*Pi*(l*(Mt*Fa/(Mt*Fg*g))^0.5
   T=2*Pi*(l/g*(Fa/Fg))^0.5

therefore the harmonic motion is affected as (Fa/Fg)^0.5.

The subject post indicates the Eotvos balance showed "Inertial effects were
greater than gravitational ones."   If this were true by a significant
margin, then it seems to me the (Fa/Fg)^0.5 effect would clearly be seen
with ordinary pendula.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 18:08:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07193;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:03:31 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971214200312.006b70dc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:03:12 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP calorimetry
In-Reply-To: <34942912.2B55 ix.netcom.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971213175453.0069af70 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"fjVLT.0.Jm1.m_8bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13820
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:44 PM 12/14/97 -0600, Craig Haynie wrote:

>Have you tried calling them and establishing a conversation with them
>directly?

Repeatedly.  They have not responded to any of Hal's or my efforts to
engage them in a technical discussion.  I would much rather have their
cooperation on this.  If our replication efforts come out negative it
proves very little.  It's the chance that they will come out positive that
drives us to perform the experiment.  Fortunately we happen to have most of
the necessary apparatus already in place for this experiment.

Scott


P.S. I did get a reponse from their webmaster.  I showed him that he could
reduce the file size on the .pdf graphs in the U of Penn report by about a
factor of ten by making them .gifs instead.  He was appreciative.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 18:09:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13882;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:05:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:05:13 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3494803A.72C06A8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:56:26 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Scott Little <little eden.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <3.0.1.32.19971211101929.009f7594 mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2O3hW1.0.nO3.L19bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13821
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
 
 "Do you have Mathcad?  If so I can send you the calcs I did.
 If not, I could FAX 'em to you if you provide a number.
 
 Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little"
 
 Hi Scott,
 
 Thanks for the suggestions.  I do not have math cad.  We would
 have to sychronize being online for me to receive a fax since
 I unplug my computer if I'm going to be away from the keyboard
 for any length of time.  I want the calculations, and it would
 be much more convenint if you could email them to me as a gif.
 
 I'm overwhelmed by the posts of 12-13 and 12-14-97.  A lot
 of thought has to be given to the experimental program.  Getting
 the sensors will have to be an effort in parallel with manual
 recording of time and position.  At the moment I'm still
 putting things together, hoping to avoid pitfalls.   My
 progress will be slow this week because of the steady increase
 in the rate and force with which my students bounce off the
 walls tomorrow through Friday, hopefully not explodimg into
 vacation.
 
 The experimental suggestions have been excellent, and I would
 appreciate more ideas with hardware recommendations before I get
 too committed to a specific equipment configuration -- you
 know the story about the guy looking for the quarter near the
 street light.
 
 Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 18:18:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15475;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:16 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: Murray: re Carrell: re: Blue & Murray: CF calorimetry errors
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:13:46 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971215021851494.AAB113 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"LI40f.0.jn3.hB9bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13823
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vo: This was a reply to a post by Rich that I intended for general
view, but it got sent directly back to him. I'm posting it for those
spectators who may be following this thread. 

BTW, Rich cross-posted a Blue missive and I didn't look closely enough to
see that it was Blue talking instead of Rich. I thus thought Rich should
have known better, when it was Blue that was the target. Mea Culpa. 

----------
> From: Mike Carrell <mikec snip.net>
> To: rmforall earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Murray: re Carrell: re: Blue & Murray: CF calorimetry errors
> Date: Saturday, December 13, 1997 9:19 AM
> 
> We are making some progress. Rich's post did not make it clear just who
was
> speaking, Blue or Murray. Now Rich says: 
> > 
> > I don't know enough about all the studies criticized by Blue to fairly
> > judge his comments, but I figured that the community of readers would
> > answer him well. 
> 
> Rich, aren't Blue's comments fair game for your critiques? Why do you
> exhaustively critique positive reports like A&Z, but quote Blue as
gospel,
> and finally admit that you don't understand? My quarrel with you is not
> that you study and question papers and reports, but that you don't
> understand the evidence available, then draw erroneous conclusions and
> disseminate them as facts in a pejorative style. 
> 
>  I am very glad that Russ George [rgeorge hooked.net]
> > has described the Arata & Zhang experiment in more detail, which
> > apparently is changed somewhat from the set-up described in their
> > report. Is he going to carry out a replication? 
> 
> If you ask Russ, he would tell you, as he has told me, that he is
> collaborating with A&Z. Russ's sonofusion process is another way of
loading
> D into Pd (and Ti). Arata is using his QMS setup to measure the He
produced
> in the sonofusion targets. Russ sees excess heat and "heat after death"
> just like P&F did in their boiloff experiments. Russ is expert in his own
> process, not A&Z's, so there is no reason for him to attempt duplication.

> 
> Let's be very, very clear on this, Rich, and not confuse things. What is
of
> the essence is production of excess heat by D loading of Pd and the
> appearance of He in the target. Russ does it with sonofusion, A&Z with
> electrolysis. For commercial development, the sonofusion seems more
> promising than the A&Z cartridge. 
> 
>  I hope that if he
> > should ever find the 20-25% excess power with an input power of 130 W,
> > for months at a time, that Arata & Zhang report, that he will speedily
> > have such a paragon tested by Mallove's crew and by Scott Little of
> > EarthTech, with full, immediate uncensored disclosure of results on the
> > Net and in Infinite Energy.
> 
> Russ has not published much of his work and has been criticized for not
> doing so (but not by me). So what we have is occasional comments from
> direct correspondence. For discussion purposes, we cannot give such
> comments as much weight as a published document. However, neither is
there
> reason to reject them. Each report, taken in isolation, can be suspect.
> However, many reports, by many people, working with different techniques
to
> achieve D loading in Pd are mutually supportive, and should lessen doubt
in
> each one. A&Z is rich in detail and strong in linking the elements
> together.  
> 
> What is this remark about "censorship" supposed to mean, Rich? IE has
> published negative results as well as positive ones. 
>  
> > In the meanwhile, can we have all details about Arata & Zhang's cell
and
> > calorimetry?  
> 
> The report contains all you need to know, if you stop denying that the
> "jumpy" data represents noise and reflects real data. On 4 November I
> posted an analysis which showed from the A&Z Fig 6b that the calorimter
> "noise" envelope amounted to about 1 KJ/hr when translated to Fig 8 and
9.
> This is much, much less than the variations shown in the actual data. 
> 
> This noise scatter in calibration was done with the same calorimeter, the
> only difference being the use of a Pt cathode instead of the Pd cathode.
> This calibration is all we need to know. Rich's thirst, his craving, for
> more and more detail will not help, for it is the calibration that
matters.
> I have already pointed out that the calibration is valid, being done with
> an electrochemical process similar in every way to the test run except
for
> the cathode material. 
> 
> > We've got a productive debate going now about technical
> > issues in calorimetry.  It is to everyone's benefit to feed this
> > dialogue with facts.  
> 
> Rich, you have facts. Are you saying that the figures in A&Z's paper are
> fabrications? 
> 
> > Is there any way to get the details of Arata &
> > Zhang's cell and calorimetry out on the table? 
> 
> It's all there, all you have to do is stop denying and look at it. 
> 
> > Would they publish this
> > in the next issue of Infinite Energy? 
> 
> I doubt it, the A&Z report is a big as an issue of IE, and there is other
> work of value. 
> 
> > If the low energy nuclear
> > transmutation in Pd of deuterium into He-4 and He-3 turns out to be
> > verified fact, 
> 
> It has already been reported by others over a period of several years.
> 
> > then very careful attention to all the details will be
> > essential to win over the minds of the Order of the Tortoise, and then
> > the wider scientific community.
> 
> Indeed, very careful attention to the details in the A&Z paper are
needed,
> which Rich has not given yet. What Rich has not grasped is that the
"jumpy"
> data of Figs 8 & 9 are not noise or calorimeter error, but the signature
of
> a real physical process. Yesterday I showed (talking to Blue, it seems)
> that the time constant of the A&Z calorimeter is small with respect to
the
> experimental period. All I had to do was look at the data as data and not
> with the mind-set that it is all a meaningless jumble of noise, which is
> what Rich has been doing. 
> 
> So the Order of the Tortise are to be the judges? Who appointed them,
> besides themselves?
> 
> > I commend Mike Carrell for his dedication to discussing the details
> > under question, although admittedly he feels frustrated by my inability
> > to agree that the details of the Arata & Zhang experiment so far
> > published are complete and sufficient enough to establish conviction
> > that the results are right.
> 
> I keep trying with the expectation that Rich will finally be able to
> understand the data in front of him.
>  
> > He measurements have been the bane of cold fusion experiments since the
> > 1920's:
> 
> Cold fusion in the 1920's?
> 
> > certainly it is vital for the Arata & Zhang paper to be
> > discussed by experts, publicly and quickly, and to focus on repliction.
> 
> We are discussing at least. Experts who do not read the A&Z paper itself
> are not experts. I've been beating on the calorimetry. I'd appreciate it
if
> someone with real experience with QMS would comment on the rest, but
> please, please read the paper, read the paper, no hand-waving
generalities,
> please. 
> 
> As I pointed out above, replication of the whole A&Z experiment is not
> likely. But He has been found in targets by others, with the critics
going
> into classical denial. What we have here is very well done QMS. It shows
He
> in sonofusion targets too, but this is unpublished. 
> 
> > Also, would Arata & Zhang be willing to supply some of their used,
> > unopened Pd-black cathodes to be analyzed by other laboratories?
> 
> Unless these laboratories used the same procedure and QMS setup that A&Z
> used, their results would again be open to endless questioning, even by
> Rich. A careful reading of the paper shows that A&Z are aware of the many
> sources of contamination in making He measurements and show how their
> apparatus deals with them. I have posted this. Rich has seen it. Rich
> apparently cannot understand what I have shown him, for he again, as
> always, seeks some other authority. 
> 
> I want Rich and other readers of Vortex to realize that what Rich is
doing
> is effectively literary criticism, the comparing of one authority against
> another. It is not a discussion of physics, where a mutual understanding
of
> physical principles can lead to agreement. 
> 
> Having said all this, I commend Rich for improvement in his
understanding. 
> 
> Hammering on Rich, I will admit what should be obvious, that I rely on
the
> veracity of the data in the A&Z paper, that the curves show real
> measurements done by a first-class scientist, and it is our duty to
> understand the data before challenging it. 
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 
>  
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 18:19:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15458;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:06:35 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971215021851494.AAA113 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"nyLK23.0.Qn3.cB9bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13822
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> Dear all,   With Mike Carrell laying down traveling barrages, while
> I've been cowering in my foxhole, with Scott Little poking me in the
> ribs, I've finally had to do something...make a dash for some specific
> data, the only safe refuge for a poor harassed skeptic.

Now that Rich is out of the foxhole, we can look at the same page together
and discuss what we see. By the way, bring your flack jacket. As skeptic
who harasses eminent scientists can expect some reciprocal harassment. 
Where Rich sees artifacts and noise, I see evidence of LENR at work in the
cathode. Note to spectators: have your printouts of Figs 6,8, and 9 at hand
to follow the discussion. I have posted these to Vortex some time back. 

> Page 6, Fig. 6b: "Basic characteristic of closed cell with Pt anode-Pt
> cathode":  Cell Power = (4.2 X MC X delta T) - (t X I X Vo), is graphed
> against Qin = (t X I X Vo). [t seems to be a mere constant.] 

One could quibble with the definitions here, which could be stated more
clearly. Qin has the units of energy (J) with t as time, which is
consistent with the overall thrust of the experiment being the correlation
of energy with presence of nuclear ash (He). The two graphs are plotted
against Qin as power (W), to show the performance of the cell as a function
of
instantaneous input power, which may vary during the experiment. Time (t)
is a constant, so may be left out in the plots. 

> Vo seems
> to me to hint that the electric power input is at constant voltage,

Not necessarily. If a  voltage regulated supply is used, input power will
be a function of cell resistance, which can change. Same with a current
regulated supply. In every case, both I and V need to be measured and
actual input power (energy) calculated. Power factor is not involved, since
the cell runs on DC. Russ George indicated that measurements were made
about every five minutes. 

> delivering up to, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-130
> watts."  For input watts 0, 20, 40-45, 56, 70-85, 90-135, the Cell Power
> watts lies in a range from almost 2 to a bit over -2, with surprisingly
> little change at each input power level. 

This is good. It shows that the calibration of the cell is relatively
independent of the actual power level, which may vary during the run.
Translated into KJ/hr, the units of Fig. 8, the entire variation amounts to
+/- ~7 KJ/hr. More precisely, in the "authors experimental range" the
variation is +1, -2 W, or +3.6, -7 KJ/hr. Averaged, the data shows a net
loss of ~0.7 KJ/hr, which is the important number in calculating the total
energy yield.  

>  Since Fig. 8c on Page 7 shows
> that Qout [= 4.2 X MC X delta T, I surmise] is roughly somewhat more
> than a linear function of Qin = t X I X Vo, then wouldn't we expect the
> variation in Cell Power to grow roughly linearly with input power? 

But the calibration of Fig 6a shows no such effect, which Rich just noted,
"surprisingly little change at each input power level" The "somewhat more
than a linear function of Qin" is direct evidence of proportionality
between the excess heat release and the electrolysis power driving the D
into the Pd in the electrolysis cell. A lack of this specific relationship
has been cited
by critics as evidence that CF experiments A , B, C...must be in error
because of no relationship between input and output. Now here it is, for
all to see,
including Rich. Other experimenters have noted that excess power tends to
increase as cathode temperature rises, which is consistent with Fig 8c.

This also shows that the input power did vary during the experiment. It is
not stated whether A&Z did this deliberately in order to show just this
relationship, or whether the variations are simply the result of changing
conditions in the electrolytic cell. It does not matter. What does matter
is this proportionality so clearly seen. It is also evident that the
proportionality constant changes as a function of input power. Why this is
so is unknown, a subject for further research, but it is irrelevant to the
relationship of energy yield and production of He. 


> The
> values at input power 0 range from about 1.5 to -.5 watt, so this must
> be the intrinsic error of the calorimetry, whether from errors in
> delta-T or variations in flow rate or other factors. 

We don't know. What is important is the relationship of this error to the
test data in Fig 8. The vertical scale of Fig 8a and 8b are 100 KJ/hr =
21mm, or 4.76 KJ/hour per mm. In the operating range, the  peak/peak
scatter of calibration points is +2, -1, or +/- 1.5 W or 5.4 KJ/hr. With a
scale
factor of 4.76 KJ/hr per mm, this calorimeter variation is ~1 mm. At the
very worst of +/- 7KJ/hr, the calorimeter variation is an envelope ~3 mm
wide.
This is about the width of the "noisy" envelope around the trends shown in
Fig 8a. 

Before we conclude that this "noisy" envelope is due to calorimeter error,
we need to look at Fig 8b, which has a noise envelope about 1 mm wide,
corresponding to my estimate above. Fig 8b was for a run with more Pd black
in the capsule. Why there should be this difference, we don't know. 

> I'd appreciate
> some input from calorimeter experts as to the possible significance of
> this relative constancy of the absolute error variation at input powers
> up to 135 watts.

Rich, what are you looking for? You have surmised that the errors should
grow greater, and they don't, the calibration shows it. We should be
obedient to the experimental data, not our preconceptions. I detect a
desperate effort to avoid the conclusion that the calorimetry data of A&Z
is valid. 

> Again, I note, as I have over and over, that we are not given such
> details as the actual input and output T values and delta T values, the
> actual voltages, currents, and resistances, the total amount of cooling
> water, the actual flow rates and variations of flow rates, the number
> and timing of calibrations, during four years of runs.

That is quite correct. We haven't. And as I have said over an over, we
don't need this data. Arata is a first class scientist, honored by his
country. We have to trust that his paper gives the essential information to
support the main conclusion. He has shown plots rich with information,
which have the flavor of real world data. 

Rich is taking the position of a prosecuting attorney, cross examining a
witness in great detail, hoping to catch the witness in a contradiction
covering up a lie which the prosecutor will in triumph use to find the
scientist guilty. 
 
> Scott Little of EarthTech International in Austin, Texas, has on his
> website a detailed, complete descriptions of his dual method
> calorimeter. A number of four-day runs are graphed with continuous
> records of input voltage [with constant current], Power output via flow
> calorimetry, Power output via Newton's Law of Cooling, Power input, and
> Room temperature.  Temperatures are measured to +-.2 degree C.  Flow was
> manually checked to be 23.4+-0.4 ml/min, or +-1.7%.  This system had a
> detection limit of about 0.1 watts. The air bath was stirred by two
> fans, and its temperature determined by the average of three sensors.
> [http://www.eden.com/~little/dual.htm]

That's very good. 

> Fig. 8b on Page 7 shows 900 hours of Cell Power for the 5 gm Pd-Black
> cathode, going from about 10 to as high as 80 KJ/hr.  [36 KJ/hr = 10
> watts.] 

Yes.

> Not mentioned are previous data, on page 11 of Infinite Energy,
> May-June, 1995, for the 5 gm cathode

THE 5gm cathode, or another 5 gm cathode? At the bottom of p7 is Note 2:
"generating pattern of each sample displays significant difference with
chronological change, however, each total amount of excess energy included
in the eight samples used from 1992 to now was almost same".

Rich, this is misdirection. We are discussing the data in this specific
report, not another test reported for another capsule on another occasion. 

>, for 2700 hours, not including a
> two weeks elapsed initial period, which varies repeatedly from about 10
> to -10 KJ/hr for the first three days graphed, and plunges down in a
> spike from 60 to -5 to 90 KJ/hr at 2200 hours.

So? The integrated energy is strongly positive. All this means is that we
don't understand the process inside the cathode. 

> Fig. 8c shows the ratio for the 900 hours of data as Qout = 4.2 X MC X
> delta T versus Qin = t X I X Vo, both in watts, with over fifty points
> from 87 to 137 watts input. This indicates that very many input power
> levels were applied.

Not necessarily. "Applied" implies volition, but variation in input power
may well be a dependent variable. Rich is assuming that there must be some
direct and constant proportionality between the electrolysis power and the
LENR reaction rate, as if we were boiling water. We aren't. A reading of
A&Z's discussion of the DS-cathode in Fig 7 and pp. 46-7 shows that some
very complex phenomena are at work. D is electrolyzed out of the water and
diffuses through the capsule wall into the Pd-black within. A "spillover
effect" occurs wherein the D ions diffuse over the surface of the very
finely divided Pd and penetrate it, generating very high pressures and
rapidly loading the Pd lattice, resulting in LENR. We have no knowledge
that this process is uniform nor that unknown factors may make the effect
unstable with time, resulting in the fluctuations of cell power level seen.
The cell temperature probably fluctuates fairly rapidly, which may affect
the input power. 

All these phenomena are subjects for further research. they should not
distract us, or Rich, from the main issue, which is a correlation between
excess energy generated and the appearance of He in the cathode.

>  We have no details for the actual power input
> history of the 900 hours, or for the duration of each power input level.
> Obviously, most of the striking variations in Cell Power in Fig. 8b
> could be from variations in input power. Likewise, until this issue is
> explicitly clarified, the skeptic has to assume that the other graphs of
> Cell Power have the same problem.

What problem? Sorry, no "gotcha". Misdirection again. Avoidance of
conclusions. Let's keep our eyes on the ball. 

Rich has already noted with surprise that the variations contributed by the
calorimetry are surprisingly independent of the applied power to the cell,
from whatever cause. Therefore, the varying Qout in Fig 8a and 8b is not
due to calorimeter errors or noise. They are due to some other process.
This process consistently yields more energy than is put in, as shown by
all three graphs in Fig 8. The power yield of this process is significantly
greater than unity for all values of input power within the "author's
experimental range". 

The time graphs show that this excess power yield is maintained over
hundreds, even thousands of hours, with cumulative energy release in the
hundreds of megajoules per cc of active material. 

The variations don't matter with respect to the main conclusions which
again are: 

1) substantial excess energy is produced by the setup of the A&Z paper
2) this excess energy correlates with the appearance of nuclear ash, 4He
and 3He, in the cathodes.

It doesn't matter if a mouse came into the lab and jumped up and down on
the electrolysis power controls and so produced variations in input power,
resulting in
variations in output power. 

It would indeed be interesting to know measured input power as a function
of time for Figs 8a and 8b, for it would help in understanding the physics
underlying the electrolytic an LENR processes. All this is a fit subject
for further research. 
 
> Scott Little kept his input power levels, continuously recorded, at
> constant levels, usually for a day or more.  His graphs show that his
> flow calorimetry can take up to two hours to stabilize, when the input
> power is raised about 20% from a level of about .6 watt [cell with
> ersatz Pd/Ni/Pd beads, on web site].

That's Scott's calorimetry.

Rich proceeds to Fig 9, which is where we should be next. But before we go
there, take note that Fig 9 does not deal with calorimetry, but with
demonstrating a relationship between pressure inside the cathode capsule
and the cell power. The "Sievert Law", stated in Fig. 7 and elsewhere in
the text, shows a log(10) relationship between pressure and gas
concentration in a solid. Some coefficients are not stated, but we may
surmise that the measured pressure plotted on a linear scale will vary more
dramatically than cell power, which is somehow related to D concentration,
logarithmically coupled to plotted cell pressure. Rich several times jumps
to the conclusion that cell pressure and power are not correlated, but they
are, in a general sense. The cell pressure relates both to the influx of D
driven into the cell by the electrolysis, but also to the increase in
temperature as the LENR proceed. Thus the measured cell power may fluctuate
while the internal pressure of the capsule continues to rise. 

There is something important we can learn about the calorimeter time
constant.

> Fig. 9 on Page 8: "Relation between pressure Pc [atm] inside
> "Particles-Gap", and cell power (excess energy) (KJ/hr)", for 1600 hour
> run of an [undescribed] Double Structure cathode, DS-K, which shows
> pressure rising three times from 0 to as much as 800 atm.  At 0 to about
> 120 hours, Cell Power rises to about 20 KJ/hr and then varies at that
> level until 350 hr, while the pressure rises steeply to 600 atm.  There
> is no clear correlation of pressure and power for these first five days.

Huh? No correlation? Except that excess power indicates that a LENR is
occurring within the cathode, and there is a steady buildup of pressure
within the cathode. The third sentence from the bottom of p47 states that
the measuring system went only to 900 atm, but the authors believe the
actual pressure was much higher due to mechanical deformation of the cell.
There is also a general correlation with pressure in
that the cell power his higher when the pressure is higher. If we were
heating water inside a sealed vessel, we would expect the same kind of
relationship. 

> Then after 300 hours the power rises steeply to about 40 KJ/hr,
> fluctuates, while the pressure levels off at 800 atm, until at about 30
> KJ/hr at 700 hours, the power is off for 2 hours.  [It is not clear if
> only the electrolysis power was off, or also the cooling flow.]  

With an energy release of 30 KJ/hr, I would expect boiling if the coolant
flow were not turned off. And if the cooling flow were turned off, how
could the cell power be measured, since it depends on measurement of inlet
and outlet temperatures of the cooling water? 

> The
> pressure dipped a little, almost 100 atm, while power dropped to 15
> KJ/hr, fluctuated at that level for about a day, then jumped to 25
> KJ/hr.  So, there was in this event again, no correlation of pressure
> and power, especially since pressure continued to decline steadily upon
> resumption of power.  

Huh? again. During this period the cell pressure is nearly flat, indicating
that the measuring instrument is saturated, as stated on p47. The cell
power shows upwards trends during this period, which is not reflected in
the graph because of the instrument limitation. Where the power was cut
off, the cell power immediately dropped, indicating a short thermal time
constant, which is of interest with respect to the comments of Blue, which
are irrelevant here. The drop in cell pressure also seems abrupt, but it
could also be that the measuring instrument is coming out of saturation,
giving a indicated blip not representative of the cell pressure immediately
preceding. It is not clear why the cell power takes a day to resume the
former power level. This is curious, but not part of this discussion. 

The internal pressure of the cell relates to the LENR within.
When the cell pressure dipped, so did the cell power. We aren't boiling
water in the capsule. There is no necessary direct correlation between
input power
and internal pressure.

> Cell Power did not rise until a day after
> resumption of power, even though pressure was nearly 700 atm.

Interesting, but how does this affect the correlation of excess energy and
He in the cathode? When it did rise, it did so abruptly, indicating again a
short thermal time constant for the system. 
 
> By 900 hours pressure had declined steadily and smoothly to 500 atm, and
> power was fluctuating at 20 KJ/hr, when power was off for 52 hours. 
> Pressure fell steeply to less than 100 atm, and power fell to 10 KJ/hr.

As the supply of D nuclei which had been driven into the capsule by the
electrolysis forces were consumed by the LENR inside the capsule and the
reaction rate fell, reducing the pressure. They may also have diffused
through the Pd capsule wall into the electrolyte. 

> Then power jumped immediately to 30 KJ/hr 

When the power was turned back on. This shows that the thermal time
constant of the A&Z cell is very short in relation to the duration of the
experiment. The above discussion of the time constant of Scott's cell is
irrelevant and misdirection. 

> and fluctuated at that level
> until 1200 hours, while pressure rose, as in the first ten days,  to
> over 400 atm.  Again, there is no correlation between pressure and
> power.

Huh? again and again. Power is applied, the LENR gets going with a fresh
supply of D nuclei, and the pressure in the capsule rises, and the cell
power shows an increase during the same period.  This isn't correlation? 

> Then power was off for 86 hours.  Pressure fell steeply and smoothly to
> about 50 atm, while power fell to 10 KJ/hr.  Then, power jumped to the
> 30 KJ/hr level 

Again demonstrating the short time constant of the A&Z cell. The cell power
jumped when the electrolysis power was turned back on. 

> and rose to 40 KJ/hr by 1600 hours, while pressure rose
> more quickly than before to a peak of about 700 atm at about 1500 hr,
> and then started falling steeply to 500 atm.
>  Again, there was no
> correlation between pressure and power: in all three mid-run startups,
> substantial power appeared before pressure rose appreciably.

Huh? again and again and again. Cell power jumps immediately (within the 5
min measurement interval indicated by Russ Goerge) when the electrolysis
power is turned on. The pressure immediately starts to rise as the LENR in
the capsule gets going, and the cell power increases as the pressure
increases. 

> Interpretation is made difficult, since we are not sure how many
> different power levels were applied during this complex run. 

Interpretation is very straightforward. The number of power levels is not
relevant. We have seen that the performance of the calorimeter is not a
function of power level. This was established in the calibration. 

> No
> explanation for the three power interruptions was given, or for the
> final decline in pressure.  Certainly, there is no evidence to indicate
> a positive correlation between pressure in the Pd-Black inside the Pd
> cathode, which may be correlated with level of deuterium loading, and
> Cell Power.  This weakens the case for deuterium nuclear reactions, and
> so points in the direction of calorimeter error or unknown artifacts.

Not so, not so. The clue is in the last sentence in the label of Fig 9. "It
is very important phenomenon that the relation between Pc and Q(cell) seems
that the generation of excess power was corresponding to Pc increased."
There is considerable discussion in the paper about the "Sievertz law",
which relates the uptake of a gas by a metal to the pressure of that gas.
The pressure inside the capsule becomes very high, which can be a factor in
the penetration of D nuclei diffused through the capsule walls, and He
generated within the capsule, into the Pd black, which has a very large
surface area.

The exact processes are complex, and are of interest in developing a theory
of the LENR within, but are not relevant to the Existence of the LENR,
which is what we are discussing. 

One way to show a relationship is simply to turn the electrolysis power on
and off, and see what happens. There is no mystery whatever. It is called
and experiment: "Let's see what happens if...".
There is a correlation between cell power and internal pressure, but it is
not linear, and there are other factors at work which vary the
instantaneous cell power. At the ~900 hour shutoff, the cell power declines
steadily until the electrolysis power is switched on. The pressure drops
rapidly. This is not surprising, for the cell pressure is at ~500
atmospheres and there can be diffusion through the capsule walls. This is
not a "leak". The cell power drops also. This happens again at the ~1300
hour cutoff. 

Thus the case for loading and the existence of LENR is strengthened, not
weakened by Fig 9. (Note to patient readers: this discussion of Fig 9 is a
bit repetitious as I stuck some comments in at the beginning after the rest
was written. It's been a long session, and I don't feel like cleaning it
up.)

Any more targets, Rich? 

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 20:42:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01707;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:38:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:38:25 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0ba6162f88d [199.237.131.226]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:39:56 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Resent-Message-ID: <"GuIFK2.0.XQ.-GBbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13824
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at a
>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>
>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?


My final answer!

The answer lies between 251,448 and 272,486, inclusive.  In other words,
the answer is 261,967 plus or minus 4.0153913 percent.

A computer program follows at the end of this post which provides the
string packing example of 251,448 strings, with separating angles of
0.4181076 degrees or more, packed into a sphere.

The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
Calculating intial values:

a = 0.4181076 deg
s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3

Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):

Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(tan((s-a)/2))^3)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = (3.323141156x10^-11)^0.5
Tan(E/4) = 5.764669249x10^-6
E/4 = 3.302912183x10^-4 deg.
E = 1.321164873x10^-3 deg.

Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:

As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)

Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:

Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E

There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
Nt/2 spokes, therefore:

Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.321164873x10^-3

Ns = 272,486 = maximum number of spokes

However, that is only a theoretical maximum.  A minimum number of maximally
packed spokes can be provided by example.  The followwing computer program
prides the example of 251,448 strings packed into sphere:





' --- String "spoke" counting program  12/14/97 --- Horace Heffner ---
'
'
    DEFLNG i-n               ' all varibles starting with i-n
                                       '     are 32 bit integers
    DEFDBL a-h,o-z    ' all varibles starting with a-h,o-z ...
                            '     are double precision floating

    DEF FNarccos(x)=-ATN(x/SQR(1#-x*x))+1.570796327#
    DEF FNarcsin(x)=ATN(x/SQR(1#-x*x))
    DEF FNraddeg(x)=x/Pi*180#
'    above functions declared because Mac Quickbasic does not have them
'
' --- Initialization ---- ----------------------------------------
'
a=.4181076#                  ' the string minimum angle
x2=2#                             ' eliminate 2# all over the place
Pi=4#*ATN(1#)              ' Pi
a=a*Pi/180#                   'a now converted to radians
cosa=COS(a)                     ' cosine of a
R90 = Pi/x2                       ' 90 deg in radians
R360=Pi+Pi                        ' 360 deg in radians
Nb=6                        ' number of points around lat. circle
Dmin=x2*SIN(a/x2)             ' minimum chord on sphere
Ta=FNarcsin(Dmin)             ' total angle advanced from pole
Told =Ta                      ' prior angle from pole
n=7                           ' total spokes positioned
dba=R360/Nb            ' longitudinal disance between string tips
d1=x2*SIN(Ta)*SIN(dba/x2)   'chord distance between string tips
db=x2*FNarcsin(d1/x2)        ' great circle angular distance ...
                               '       between string  tips
h1=COS(a)/COS(db/x2)       ' solve right spherical triangle ...
h=FNarccos(h1)            '        to get best packing height
Top=R360-h        ' limit on approach to an equator with Nb spokes

' --- compute maximum number of spokes ---

s=(a+a+a)/x2
Ts=TAN(s/x2)
Tsa=TAN((s-a)/x2)
EEE=SQR(Ts*Tsa*Tsa*Tsa)
EE=ATN(EEE)*4#                      '  EE is spherical excess
Nmax=INT(R360/EE)
'
' --- main line of program -----------------------------------
'
' --- loop through all latitudes of one hemisphere
'    (the other by symmetry)
'
WHILE Ta <= Top

' ---- look at next latitude being at Ta + h with Nb1 = Nb

    t1=Ta+h
    Nb1=Nb
    db1=R360/Nb1

' ---- look at next latitude being at Ta + a,increment on Nb

    T2=Ta+a
    IF T2<Top THEN
        theta=FNarcsin(Dmin/(x2*SIN(T2)))
        Nb2=INT(R360/(x2*theta))
    ELSE
        Nb2=1
    END IF
    db2=R360/Nb2
'
' --- pick the best angle increment to the next lattitude

    IF Nb1*a > Nb2*h AND t1 <= Top AND last=1 THEN
        Ta=t1                      ' h is the increment
        Nb=Nb1
        n=n+Nb
        db=db1
        last=0
    ELSEIF T2 <= Top THEN             ' a is the increment
        Ta=T2
        Nb=Nb2
        n=n+Nb
        db=db2
        last=1
     ELSE                             ' out of room
         Ta=999
     END IF


' --- calculate minimum angular distance to next latitude
'  by determining height h of isosceles triangle with db
'  as baseand sides of length a,
'  thus ensuring min. separation
'

    dba=db               ' base of isosceles spherical triangle
    d1=x2*SIN(Ta)*SIN(dba/x2)   'chord distance between string tips
    db=x2*FNarcsin(d1/x2)     ' great circle angular distance ...
                                    '       between string  tips

    h1=cosa/COS(db/x2)
    IF h1>1# THEN h1=1#
    IF h1<1 THEN h=FNarccos(h1) ELSE h=0
    IF h+Ta<a+Told THEN h=a+Told-Ta
    Told=Ta
    Top=R90-h
WEND

' --- wrap-up

    n=n+n+Nb     ' add other hemisphere plus equatorial strings
    PRINT
    PRINT
    PRINT
    PRINT " Minimum number of spokes =";n
    PRINT " Maximum number of spokes=";Nmax
    PRINT " Equatorial spokes=";Nb
    INPUT"Run Complete, hit enter to end run";x$
    STOP




Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 20:52:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03343;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:48:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:48:43 -0800 (PST)
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com, jdecker@keelynet.com
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:39:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Death of Dr. Paul Brown
Message-ID: <19971214.203927.9598.1.tv juno.com>
References: <34939F15.55DC keelynet.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.38
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-19,21,25-26,30-31,33-37
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"mljtW3.0.2q.bQBbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13825
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:55:49 -0800 Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com> writes:
>Hi Folks!
>
>I regret to inform you that Dr. Paul Brown, inventor of the Resonant 
>Nuclear Battery was killed in an explosion on December 12th.  Details 
>are posted at;
>
>      http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pbrown.htm
>
>courtesy of his friend and partner, Ronald Dandy.
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>
>
Hi Jerry,

I am very sad to receive the news of Paul Brown's passing in the tragic
accident.  
I talked to and corresponded with Paul on a number of occasions about our
mutual interest in the work of Thomas Henry Moray and his radiant energy
device which Paul believed (as I do) that it was closely related to
Paul's latest work.

Paul impressed me with his kindness and professionalism.  He was quite
open about sharing ideas with others as much as he was allowed by his
business arrangements.   His books were the best I have found on the
topic of nuclear batteries, especially resonant.

I hope that his work will not be lost or suppressed as was the case with
Moray.


Tim
( tv juno.com )

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 20:58:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA31498;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:50:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:50:29 -0800
Message-ID: <3494A95F.90E earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:51:59 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Logajan: CG thorium transmutation reports
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"X6_h_.0.4i7.KSBbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13826
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer.kren.nm.kr!mr.net!spock-testing.mr.net!news.mr.net!skypoint.com!mirage.skypoint.net!jlogajan
From: John Logajan <jlogajan mirage.skypoint.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: LENT
Date: 13 Dec 1997 19:01:00 GMT
Organization: SkyPoint Communications, Inc.
Message-ID: <66um1c$6pf$1 shadow.skypoint.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mirage.skypoint.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970930; i386 FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE]

I'm looking at the report by Hal Fox and Shang-Sian Jin in the latest
IE #16. They test "The Cincinnati Groups'" LENT-1 device.  LENT stands
for Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation.  The LENT-1 is basically a
cell with two zirconium electrodes between which is filled a mixture
of water and thorium nitrate.  This electrolyte is then subjected to
high powered AC electrical current and after several tens of minutes,
95% of the thorium nitrate is said to go missing.

Some thorium is found to have plated onto the electrodes, and the 
electrodes are said to appear deteriorated.  An odd characterisitic
of the radioactivity of this plated thorium (measuring counts per
minute) is that the count rate declines after this initial processesing
by about 50% over the next 200 hours or so -- sort of a death after
heat :-)

Now my first conjecture would be that since there is AC involved, it
isn't just simple plating, but that the thorium is actually being
doped into the zirconium and thus acting as a shield to its natural
emissivity.  But the odd after-the-fact multi-hour decline in emissivity
doesn't jive -- so a second conjecture might be that thorium
is still migrating into the zirconium -- a kind of ongoing soluability.

I haven't commented on LENT before because of the strange nature of the
"Cinncy discovery", but with Fox/Jin and now Dr. Peter Gluck in Romania 
reporting similar preliminary results, a search for metallurgical
explanations may be warranted.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 21:01:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA32134;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:55:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:55:59 -0800
Message-ID: <3494D47A.3AEA keelynet.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:55:54 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Computer stolen
References: <199812142150.WAA02925 mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"PBUBy1.0.0s7.VXBbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13827
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Jean Paul!

Sorry to hear about the loss of your computer....especially with a hard 
drive full of research information....hope you were insured...

I had my new digital camera stolen at JFK airport when I let a friend 
watch the bag...happened in a split second and I did not realize til we 
reached Heathrow...too late....and I stupidly did not have it 
insured...almost $600 for one even close in abilities...

In your case, I'll bet thats around $2500...ouch!!!  sorry to hear of 
it..
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 21:01:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00013;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:58:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:58:29 -0800
Message-ID: <3494AB3A.6F6E earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:59:54 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: re Carrell:  Murray: Another Arata Errata
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"noA3H.0.u_7.pZBbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13828
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust5.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.5])
	by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12850;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:44:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3494A817.4033 earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:46:31 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rbrtbass pahrump.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, rgeorge@hoooked.net,
        g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        sejones physics1.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, dennis@wazoo.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com,
        wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        76002.1473 compuserve.com, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, JNaudin509@aol.com, nick7@itl.net,
        collis netcity.it, shkedi@bose.com, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, eureka@bright.net,
        terry4 llnl.gov, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com
Subject: Carrell:  Murray: Another Arata Errata
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------60BB54CD4E69"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------60BB54CD4E69
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 14, 1997

Dear all,  I am very pleased indeed to forward a long, detailed, frank
reposte by Mike Carrell to my "Another Arata Errata" of Dec. 13.

Supposing he is right, that a variety of the Arata & Zhang "Double
Structure" cathodes, Pd with a tightly sealed inside space containing a
few grams of .4 micron Pd-Black powder, do reliably produce about 20%
excess power by fusion of deuterieum into He-4 and He-3 in a simple,
robust electrolysis experiment at input powers from 87 to 137 watt--
then wouldn't the quickest way to verify this very important claim would
be to supply Little, Mallove, and Merriman with sample cathodes, so they
can immediately test them?  What say ye, O cold fusion community?

In fact, what's to prevent these labs and others from copying the very
simple design of the cathodes-- no claims have been advanced that only
very special, unique samples of Pd work.  Have Arata & Zhang had success
with other cathode metals, containing Pd-Black?

Yoshiaki Arata & Yue-Chang Zhang
contact via Joining and Welding Research Institute
The Group of Mechanical Engineering
Faculty of Engineering
Osaka University

11-1 Mihogaoka Ibaraki
Osaka 567, Japan   81-6-879-8689

www.jwri.osaka-u.ac.jp/Index-e.html

Or contact via Russ George [rgeorge hooked.net]

As one,  Rich Murray

--------------60BB54CD4E69
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (smartlst mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49])
	by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15009;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:17:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15460;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:06:35 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971215021851494.AAA113 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"nyLK23.0.Qn3.cB9bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13822
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com

> Dear all,   With Mike Carrell laying down traveling barrages, while
> I've been cowering in my foxhole, with Scott Little poking me in the
> ribs, I've finally had to do something...make a dash for some specific
> data, the only safe refuge for a poor harassed skeptic.

Now that Rich is out of the foxhole, we can look at the same page together
and discuss what we see. By the way, bring your flack jacket. As skeptic
who harasses eminent scientists can expect some reciprocal harassment. 
Where Rich sees artifacts and noise, I see evidence of LENR at work in the
cathode. Note to spectators: have your printouts of Figs 6,8, and 9 at hand
to follow the discussion. I have posted these to Vortex some time back. 

> Page 6, Fig. 6b: "Basic characteristic of closed cell with Pt anode-Pt
> cathode":  Cell Power = (4.2 X MC X delta T) - (t X I X Vo), is graphed
> against Qin = (t X I X Vo). [t seems to be a mere constant.] 

One could quibble with the definitions here, which could be stated more
clearly. Qin has the units of energy (J) with t as time, which is
consistent with the overall thrust of the experiment being the correlation
of energy with presence of nuclear ash (He). The two graphs are plotted
against Qin as power (W), to show the performance of the cell as a function
of
instantaneous input power, which may vary during the experiment. Time (t)
is a constant, so may be left out in the plots. 

> Vo seems
> to me to hint that the electric power input is at constant voltage,

Not necessarily. If a  voltage regulated supply is used, input power will
be a function of cell resistance, which can change. Same with a current
regulated supply. In every case, both I and V need to be measured and
actual input power (energy) calculated. Power factor is not involved, since
the cell runs on DC. Russ George indicated that measurements were made
about every five minutes. 

> delivering up to, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-130
> watts."  For input watts 0, 20, 40-45, 56, 70-85, 90-135, the Cell Power
> watts lies in a range from almost 2 to a bit over -2, with surprisingly
> little change at each input power level. 

This is good. It shows that the calibration of the cell is relatively
independent of the actual power level, which may vary during the run.
Translated into KJ/hr, the units of Fig. 8, the entire variation amounts to
+/- ~7 KJ/hr. More precisely, in the "authors experimental range" the
variation is +1, -2 W, or +3.6, -7 KJ/hr. Averaged, the data shows a net
loss of ~0.7 KJ/hr, which is the important number in calculating the total
energy yield.  

>  Since Fig. 8c on Page 7 shows
> that Qout [= 4.2 X MC X delta T, I surmise] is roughly somewhat more
> than a linear function of Qin = t X I X Vo, then wouldn't we expect the
> variation in Cell Power to grow roughly linearly with input power? 

But the calibration of Fig 6a shows no such effect, which Rich just noted,
"surprisingly little change at each input power level" The "somewhat more
than a linear function of Qin" is direct evidence of proportionality
between the excess heat release and the electrolysis power driving the D
into the Pd in the electrolysis cell. A lack of this specific relationship
has been cited
by critics as evidence that CF experiments A , B, C...must be in error
because of no relationship between input and output. Now here it is, for
all to see,
including Rich. Other experimenters have noted that excess power tends to
increase as cathode temperature rises, which is consistent with Fig 8c.

This also shows that the input power did vary during the experiment. It is
not stated whether A&Z did this deliberately in order to show just this
relationship, or whether the variations are simply the result of changing
conditions in the electrolytic cell. It does not matter. What does matter
is this proportionality so clearly seen. It is also evident that the
proportionality constant changes as a function of input power. Why this is
so is unknown, a subject for further research, but it is irrelevant to the
relationship of energy yield and production of He. 


> The
> values at input power 0 range from about 1.5 to -.5 watt, so this must
> be the intrinsic error of the calorimetry, whether from errors in
> delta-T or variations in flow rate or other factors. 

We don't know. What is important is the relationship of this error to the
test data in Fig 8. The vertical scale of Fig 8a and 8b are 100 KJ/hr =
21mm, or 4.76 KJ/hour per mm. In the operating range, the  peak/peak
scatter of calibration points is +2, -1, or +/- 1.5 W or 5.4 KJ/hr. With a
scale
factor of 4.76 KJ/hr per mm, this calorimeter variation is ~1 mm. At the
very worst of +/- 7KJ/hr, the calorimeter variation is an envelope ~3 mm
wide.
This is about the width of the "noisy" envelope around the trends shown in
Fig 8a. 

Before we conclude that this "noisy" envelope is due to calorimeter error,
we need to look at Fig 8b, which has a noise envelope about 1 mm wide,
corresponding to my estimate above. Fig 8b was for a run with more Pd black
in the capsule. Why there should be this difference, we don't know. 

> I'd appreciate
> some input from calorimeter experts as to the possible significance of
> this relative constancy of the absolute error variation at input powers
> up to 135 watts.

Rich, what are you looking for? You have surmised that the errors should
grow greater, and they don't, the calibration shows it. We should be
obedient to the experimental data, not our preconceptions. I detect a
desperate effort to avoid the conclusion that the calorimetry data of A&Z
is valid. 

> Again, I note, as I have over and over, that we are not given such
> details as the actual input and output T values and delta T values, the
> actual voltages, currents, and resistances, the total amount of cooling
> water, the actual flow rates and variations of flow rates, the number
> and timing of calibrations, during four years of runs.

That is quite correct. We haven't. And as I have said over an over, we
don't need this data. Arata is a first class scientist, honored by his
country. We have to trust that his paper gives the essential information to
support the main conclusion. He has shown plots rich with information,
which have the flavor of real world data. 

Rich is taking the position of a prosecuting attorney, cross examining a
witness in great detail, hoping to catch the witness in a contradiction
covering up a lie which the prosecutor will in triumph use to find the
scientist guilty. 
 
> Scott Little of EarthTech International in Austin, Texas, has on his
> website a detailed, complete descriptions of his dual method
> calorimeter. A number of four-day runs are graphed with continuous
> records of input voltage [with constant current], Power output via flow
> calorimetry, Power output via Newton's Law of Cooling, Power input, and
> Room temperature.  Temperatures are measured to +-.2 degree C.  Flow was
> manually checked to be 23.4+-0.4 ml/min, or +-1.7%.  This system had a
> detection limit of about 0.1 watts. The air bath was stirred by two
> fans, and its temperature determined by the average of three sensors.
> [http://www.eden.com/~little/dual.htm]

That's very good. 

> Fig. 8b on Page 7 shows 900 hours of Cell Power for the 5 gm Pd-Black
> cathode, going from about 10 to as high as 80 KJ/hr.  [36 KJ/hr = 10
> watts.] 

Yes.

> Not mentioned are previous data, on page 11 of Infinite Energy,
> May-June, 1995, for the 5 gm cathode

THE 5gm cathode, or another 5 gm cathode? At the bottom of p7 is Note 2:
"generating pattern of each sample displays significant difference with
chronological change, however, each total amount of excess energy included
in the eight samples used from 1992 to now was almost same".

Rich, this is misdirection. We are discussing the data in this specific
report, not another test reported for another capsule on another occasion. 

>, for 2700 hours, not including a
> two weeks elapsed initial period, which varies repeatedly from about 10
> to -10 KJ/hr for the first three days graphed, and plunges down in a
> spike from 60 to -5 to 90 KJ/hr at 2200 hours.

So? The integrated energy is strongly positive. All this means is that we
don't understand the process inside the cathode. 

> Fig. 8c shows the ratio for the 900 hours of data as Qout = 4.2 X MC X
> delta T versus Qin = t X I X Vo, both in watts, with over fifty points
> from 87 to 137 watts input. This indicates that very many input power
> levels were applied.

Not necessarily. "Applied" implies volition, but variation in input power
may well be a dependent variable. Rich is assuming that there must be some
direct and constant proportionality between the electrolysis power and the
LENR reaction rate, as if we were boiling water. We aren't. A reading of
A&Z's discussion of the DS-cathode in Fig 7 and pp. 46-7 shows that some
very complex phenomena are at work. D is electrolyzed out of the water and
diffuses through the capsule wall into the Pd-black within. A "spillover
effect" occurs wherein the D ions diffuse over the surface of the very
finely divided Pd and penetrate it, generating very high pressures and
rapidly loading the Pd lattice, resulting in LENR. We have no knowledge
that this process is uniform nor that unknown factors may make the effect
unstable with time, resulting in the fluctuations of cell power level seen.
The cell temperature probably fluctuates fairly rapidly, which may affect
the input power. 

All these phenomena are subjects for further research. they should not
distract us, or Rich, from the main issue, which is a correlation between
excess energy generated and the appearance of He in the cathode.

>  We have no details for the actual power input
> history of the 900 hours, or for the duration of each power input level.
> Obviously, most of the striking variations in Cell Power in Fig. 8b
> could be from variations in input power. Likewise, until this issue is
> explicitly clarified, the skeptic has to assume that the other graphs of
> Cell Power have the same problem.

What problem? Sorry, no "gotcha". Misdirection again. Avoidance of
conclusions. Let's keep our eyes on the ball. 

Rich has already noted with surprise that the variations contributed by the
calorimetry are surprisingly independent of the applied power to the cell,
from whatever cause. Therefore, the varying Qout in Fig 8a and 8b is not
due to calorimeter errors or noise. They are due to some other process.
This process consistently yields more energy than is put in, as shown by
all three graphs in Fig 8. The power yield of this process is significantly
greater than unity for all values of input power within the "author's
experimental range". 

The time graphs show that this excess power yield is maintained over
hundreds, even thousands of hours, with cumulative energy release in the
hundreds of megajoules per cc of active material. 

The variations don't matter with respect to the main conclusions which
again are: 

1) substantial excess energy is produced by the setup of the A&Z paper
2) this excess energy correlates with the appearance of nuclear ash, 4He
and 3He, in the cathodes.

It doesn't matter if a mouse came into the lab and jumped up and down on
the electrolysis power controls and so produced variations in input power,
resulting in
variations in output power. 

It would indeed be interesting to know measured input power as a function
of time for Figs 8a and 8b, for it would help in understanding the physics
underlying the electrolytic an LENR processes. All this is a fit subject
for further research. 
 
> Scott Little kept his input power levels, continuously recorded, at
> constant levels, usually for a day or more.  His graphs show that his
> flow calorimetry can take up to two hours to stabilize, when the input
> power is raised about 20% from a level of about .6 watt [cell with
> ersatz Pd/Ni/Pd beads, on web site].

That's Scott's calorimetry.

Rich proceeds to Fig 9, which is where we should be next. But before we go
there, take note that Fig 9 does not deal with calorimetry, but with
demonstrating a relationship between pressure inside the cathode capsule
and the cell power. The "Sievert Law", stated in Fig. 7 and elsewhere in
the text, shows a log(10) relationship between pressure and gas
concentration in a solid. Some coefficients are not stated, but we may
surmise that the measured pressure plotted on a linear scale will vary more
dramatically than cell power, which is somehow related to D concentration,
logarithmically coupled to plotted cell pressure. Rich several times jumps
to the conclusion that cell pressure and power are not correlated, but they
are, in a general sense. The cell pressure relates both to the influx of D
driven into the cell by the electrolysis, but also to the increase in
temperature as the LENR proceed. Thus the measured cell power may fluctuate
while the internal pressure of the capsule continues to rise. 

There is something important we can learn about the calorimeter time
constant.

> Fig. 9 on Page 8: "Relation between pressure Pc [atm] inside
> "Particles-Gap", and cell power (excess energy) (KJ/hr)", for 1600 hour
> run of an [undescribed] Double Structure cathode, DS-K, which shows
> pressure rising three times from 0 to as much as 800 atm.  At 0 to about
> 120 hours, Cell Power rises to about 20 KJ/hr and then varies at that
> level until 350 hr, while the pressure rises steeply to 600 atm.  There
> is no clear correlation of pressure and power for these first five days.

Huh? No correlation? Except that excess power indicates that a LENR is
occurring within the cathode, and there is a steady buildup of pressure
within the cathode. The third sentence from the bottom of p47 states that
the measuring system went only to 900 atm, but the authors believe the
actual pressure was much higher due to mechanical deformation of the cell.
There is also a general correlation with pressure in
that the cell power his higher when the pressure is higher. If we were
heating water inside a sealed vessel, we would expect the same kind of
relationship. 

> Then after 300 hours the power rises steeply to about 40 KJ/hr,
> fluctuates, while the pressure levels off at 800 atm, until at about 30
> KJ/hr at 700 hours, the power is off for 2 hours.  [It is not clear if
> only the electrolysis power was off, or also the cooling flow.]  

With an energy release of 30 KJ/hr, I would expect boiling if the coolant
flow were not turned off. And if the cooling flow were turned off, how
could the cell power be measured, since it depends on measurement of inlet
and outlet temperatures of the cooling water? 

> The
> pressure dipped a little, almost 100 atm, while power dropped to 15
> KJ/hr, fluctuated at that level for about a day, then jumped to 25
> KJ/hr.  So, there was in this event again, no correlation of pressure
> and power, especially since pressure continued to decline steadily upon
> resumption of power.  

Huh? again. During this period the cell pressure is nearly flat, indicating
that the measuring instrument is saturated, as stated on p47. The cell
power shows upwards trends during this period, which is not reflected in
the graph because of the instrument limitation. Where the power was cut
off, the cell power immediately dropped, indicating a short thermal time
constant, which is of interest with respect to the comments of Blue, which
are irrelevant here. The drop in cell pressure also seems abrupt, but it
could also be that the measuring instrument is coming out of saturation,
giving a indicated blip not representative of the cell pressure immediately
preceding. It is not clear why the cell power takes a day to resume the
former power level. This is curious, but not part of this discussion. 

The internal pressure of the cell relates to the LENR within.
When the cell pressure dipped, so did the cell power. We aren't boiling
water in the capsule. There is no necessary direct correlation between
input power
and internal pressure.

> Cell Power did not rise until a day after
> resumption of power, even though pressure was nearly 700 atm.

Interesting, but how does this affect the correlation of excess energy and
He in the cathode? When it did rise, it did so abruptly, indicating again a
short thermal time constant for the system. 
 
> By 900 hours pressure had declined steadily and smoothly to 500 atm, and
> power was fluctuating at 20 KJ/hr, when power was off for 52 hours. 
> Pressure fell steeply to less than 100 atm, and power fell to 10 KJ/hr.

As the supply of D nuclei which had been driven into the capsule by the
electrolysis forces were consumed by the LENR inside the capsule and the
reaction rate fell, reducing the pressure. They may also have diffused
through the Pd capsule wall into the electrolyte. 

> Then power jumped immediately to 30 KJ/hr 

When the power was turned back on. This shows that the thermal time
constant of the A&Z cell is very short in relation to the duration of the
experiment. The above discussion of the time constant of Scott's cell is
irrelevant and misdirection. 

> and fluctuated at that level
> until 1200 hours, while pressure rose, as in the first ten days,  to
> over 400 atm.  Again, there is no correlation between pressure and
> power.

Huh? again and again. Power is applied, the LENR gets going with a fresh
supply of D nuclei, and the pressure in the capsule rises, and the cell
power shows an increase during the same period.  This isn't correlation? 

> Then power was off for 86 hours.  Pressure fell steeply and smoothly to
> about 50 atm, while power fell to 10 KJ/hr.  Then, power jumped to the
> 30 KJ/hr level 

Again demonstrating the short time constant of the A&Z cell. The cell power
jumped when the electrolysis power was turned back on. 

> and rose to 40 KJ/hr by 1600 hours, while pressure rose
> more quickly than before to a peak of about 700 atm at about 1500 hr,
> and then started falling steeply to 500 atm.
>  Again, there was no
> correlation between pressure and power: in all three mid-run startups,
> substantial power appeared before pressure rose appreciably.

Huh? again and again and again. Cell power jumps immediately (within the 5
min measurement interval indicated by Russ Goerge) when the electrolysis
power is turned on. The pressure immediately starts to rise as the LENR in
the capsule gets going, and the cell power increases as the pressure
increases. 

> Interpretation is made difficult, since we are not sure how many
> different power levels were applied during this complex run. 

Interpretation is very straightforward. The number of power levels is not
relevant. We have seen that the performance of the calorimeter is not a
function of power level. This was established in the calibration. 

> No
> explanation for the three power interruptions was given, or for the
> final decline in pressure.  Certainly, there is no evidence to indicate
> a positive correlation between pressure in the Pd-Black inside the Pd
> cathode, which may be correlated with level of deuterium loading, and
> Cell Power.  This weakens the case for deuterium nuclear reactions, and
> so points in the direction of calorimeter error or unknown artifacts.

Not so, not so. The clue is in the last sentence in the label of Fig 9. "It
is very important phenomenon that the relation between Pc and Q(cell) seems
that the generation of excess power was corresponding to Pc increased."
There is considerable discussion in the paper about the "Sievertz law",
which relates the uptake of a gas by a metal to the pressure of that gas.
The pressure inside the capsule becomes very high, which can be a factor in
the penetration of D nuclei diffused through the capsule walls, and He
generated within the capsule, into the Pd black, which has a very large
surface area.

The exact processes are complex, and are of interest in developing a theory
of the LENR within, but are not relevant to the Existence of the LENR,
which is what we are discussing. 

One way to show a relationship is simply to turn the electrolysis power on
and off, and see what happens. There is no mystery whatever. It is called
and experiment: "Let's see what happens if...".
There is a correlation between cell power and internal pressure, but it is
not linear, and there are other factors at work which vary the
instantaneous cell power. At the ~900 hour shutoff, the cell power declines
steadily until the electrolysis power is switched on. The pressure drops
rapidly. This is not surprising, for the cell pressure is at ~500
atmospheres and there can be diffusion through the capsule walls. This is
not a "leak". The cell power drops also. This happens again at the ~1300
hour cutoff. 

Thus the case for loading and the existence of LENR is strengthened, not
weakened by Fig 9. (Note to patient readers: this discussion of Fig 9 is a
bit repetitious as I stuck some comments in at the beginning after the rest
was written. It's been a long session, and I don't feel like cleaning it
up.)

Any more targets, Rich? 

Mike Carrell





--------------60BB54CD4E69--



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 21:02:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00617;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:01:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:01:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3494D5AD.1685 keelynet.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:01:01 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Death of Dr. Paul Brown
References: <34939F15.55DC keelynet.com> <19971214.203927.9598.1.tv@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-zE9v3.0.P9.JcBbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13829
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Tim!

I only met Dr. Brown once and was also impressed with his knowledge and 
willingness to share what he learned.  

The fellow who sent the notice, Ronald Dandy, said he was working with 
the investor and family to see how much of the information could be 
distributed so Dr. Brown's work will continue....

If anyone has questions about Dr. Brown, funeral arrangements or the 
status of his work, I suggest you contact Ronald Dandy direct as he will 
have the most current info.  He just wanted it posted so everyone in the 
F/E community would be aware of it....
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 23:31:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20403;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:35 -0800
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Debate about Arata & Zhang Results
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:41:59 +0000
Message-ID: <19971215054157.AAA6869 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"2EOcd.0.X-4.miDbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13832
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I agree with Tom Stolper in complimenting Mike Carrell on the validity and
courtesy of the arguments he posts.  His is an example of patience that more
of us could stand to emulate.

Scientific criticism is not the political matter of attacking until the
opponent gives up.  It is very easy to give up in arguing with Rich because
it is laborious to carry on the struggle, even when he is obviously in
error.  We cannot afford to loose the common goal of greater understanding.
Respect demands that we do our homework carefully before forming a critique
and limit the circulation until a solid case is formed.

Incidently, after seeing Bill Beaty's many references to Zen and the Art of
Debunkery, I finally read it.  It's very funny, true,  thought-provoking and
deserves an occasional re-read (hint, Rich).

At 02:33 PM 12/10/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks to Mike Carrell for his detailed response to the many calorimetric
>questions that Rich Murray keeps bringing up, and thanks also to Jed
>Rothwell.  Calorimetry is one of my weak points, and I've found the debate
>educational.  
>
>The longer the debate goes on, the stronger the excess heat results of Arata
>& Zhang look.  The 56-page 1997 article by Arata & Zhang is one of the major
>works in the field.
>
>Tom Stolper
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 23:32:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20231;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:15 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:57:31 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd08fc$ce908340$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"LcIv43.0.-x4.SiDbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13831
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment


>Let me try that one more time!   It's difficult adjusting to a new
>paradigm, and I have too many things going on at once here.
>
>The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
>of gravity:
>
>    F=G*m1*m2/d^2

We don't ASSUME the Gravitational Constant "G"
6.67E-11 Newton-Meter^2/kilogram^2. It has been measured out to 10 decimal
places.  :-)

>
>is in the new paradigm actually:
>
>    F=G1*G2*m1*m2/d^2

This gives you (6.67E-11)^2* m1*m2/d2 which throws the gravitational forces
off by 66.7 trillion! Where was your Full Moon located last night?
>
>with G2 the aggregate "G" for the earth. There is no longer a true unique G
>except historically or normatively in this paradigm.  The strength of the
>gravitational field at the surface of the earth is still just plain g,

g is not a force it is an acceleration 9.8 meters/second^2

due to F = G*me*m1/r^2 where me is the mass of the Earth 5.98E24 kilograms
and r is the radius of the Earth 6.38E6 meters. Letting a mass, m1 = 1
kilogram F = 9.8 newtons.
Since F = ma, thus a = F/m = 9.8 meters/second^2

but
>to calculate the actual force we must adjust some measure of "true mass"
>Mt1 of the affected object by a factor Fg1 = G1/G to obtain observed
>gravitational mass Mg1 = Mt1*Fg1.
>
>To obtain the apparent mass of acceleration Ma1 for object 1 we have Ma1=
>Mt1*Fa1, the same mass Mt is multiplied by Fa1 = a1/a, where a1 is
>acceleration observed at constant force by the true mass unit Mt1 vs the
>acceleration a observed for typical aggregate mass with Fg1=1.   The true
>mass Mt of an object must then be based on some uniform property, like
>number of atoms, or fundamental particles of differing kinds.  The
>adjustment factors Fa and Fg would be unique for each particle, and would
>be a weighted sum for a gross object.
>
>The force at displacement x of the pendulum then is:
>
>    F=(Mt*Fg*g/l)*x.
>
>If we substitute (Mt*Fg*g/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
>motion, i.e.:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(Mt*Fa/k)^0.5
>
>then we get:
>
>   T=2*Pi*(l*(Mt*Fa/(Mt*Fg*g))^0.5
>   T=2*Pi*(l/g*(Fa/Fg))^0.5
>
>therefore the harmonic motion is affected as (Fa/Fg)^0.5.
>
>The subject post indicates the Eotvos balance showed "Inertial effects were
>greater than gravitational ones."   If this were true by a significant
>margin, then it seems to me the (Fa/Fg)^0.5 effect would clearly be seen
>with ordinary pendula.

I think it is penduli?  :-)

The subject post pointed out a difference in some measured value between
different metals with the metals of lesser
density having a higher number with the exception of Bismuth.

However there is a model (paradigm) that I need to work through to relate it
to the nuclear magnetic moment and net spin.  I'll get back to you on this.

I'm not about to "swim upstream" if I can avoid it. :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 14 23:32:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20215;
	Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:24:12 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of Tensors
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:28:29 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd08f8$bfb89aa0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"Rv5QJ1.0.mx4.RiDbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13830
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Line Geometry, Spherical Capacitance and The Calculus of
Tensors


>At 8:17 PM 12/10/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>[snip]
>>Now then, if space divides every "wheel" into 861 spokes that converge at
a
>>"dimensionless point" that only allows
>>angles of 0.4181076 degrees, then there should be 861 planes or dimensions
>>in space as opposed to three "mutually
>>perpendicular planes" ie., dimensions.   :-)
>>
>>How many radial lines can come out of that "dimensionless point"?
>
>
>The minimum spherical area occupied by 3 points with minimum angular
>separation  is a spherical equilateral triangle. We want to find the
>relative area H of a spherical triangle with 3 sides a=b=c=0.4181076 deg.
>Calculating intial values:
>
>a = 0.4181076 deg
>s = (a+b+c)/2 = 3a/2 = 0.6271614 deg.
>s-a = 0.2090538 deg.
>Tan(s/2)=5.473070332x10^-3
>Tan((s-a)/2)=1.824340586x10^-3
>
>Using L'Huilier's Theorem to calculate the spherical excess E (amount by
>which sum of angles of the triangle exceed 180 deg.):
>
>Tan(E/4) = (tan(s/2)*(tan((s-a)/2))^3)^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = (3.323141156x10^-11)^0.5
>Tan(E/4) = 5.764669249x10^-6
>E/4 = 3.302912183x10^-4 deg.
>E = 1.321164873x10^-3 deg.
>
>Now, is known that the area H is equal to the area of a lune whose angle is
>E/2. The area of a lune is to the area of a sphere (As) as the angle of the
>lune (E/2) is to 360 deg. so:
>
>As/H = (360 deg.)/(E/2)
>
>Max number of triangles Nt = As/H, but from above:
>
>Nt = As/H = (720 deg.)/E
>
>There are 3 vertices, thus three spokes, adjacent to each triangle, but
>each spoke is counted in 6 adjacent traingles, so there are Ns = 3/6 Nt =
>Nt/2 spokes, therefore:
>
>Ns = Nt/2 = (360 deg.)/E = 360/1.321164873x10^-3
>
>Ns = 272,486 = maximum number of spokes

How about 235,986 spokes?

That would be 4(pi)*(1/alpha)^2 or 4(pi)* (137.037)^2.

As a number-crunching numerologist, I prefer precision. :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 00:59:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA31565;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:51:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:51:46 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:51:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: usat usa.net
Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0b897c1f7cf [199.237.131.239]>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971215012812.3217H-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"fJl3m1.0.6j7.V-Ebq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13833
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:
J & T wrote:
  >>>>         I am guessing, so please correct me, there is a ban on certain
  >>>> meat products in UK.
  >>>>         Can anyone tell me, in general, what the ban is, and the official
  >>>> reason why some products are banned, and what, specifically is banned?
  >>>
snip
  >>>The latest "finding" is that the prions responsible for BSE, aka Mad Cow
  >>>Disease, reside in the connective tissue between bone and muscle; hence,
  >>>the banning of T-Bone steaks.  I prefer ribeye and filet mignon anyway.
  >>><G>
  >>>Terry

  >>
  >>Yes - also, the initial cause for the prion formation is repeated cycling
  >>of the same protiens through cows, i.e. feeding ground cow parts to cows.
  >>Regards,
  >>Horace Heffner          
  >>

 While I thought I'd heard it was from eating "sheep" by-products,
forced cannilbilism and ( I'm *not* a vegetarian), BUT, could be like
re-cycling. BUT DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS HERE WITHOUT DATA/FACTS..
There is some written record (bible -on-) about inter-breeding and eating
YOUR OWN... Mother/Daughter Mother sister.. screw your
sis/mother..etc..  EATING your 'NON-own' seems to be 'healthier'.
-------------
DNA - RNA seem to be telling us sonething here - are 'we' listening'?

Result is Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in humans. 

duh ;)
-=se=-

I'm (we are) what we're Eating.   (YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT)
Fly's and maggots =98% protein ;)
Ahhh, the old chineese Rhino-horn soup (or shark fin) hummmmmmm
bon-appitete*


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 02:20:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03719;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:17:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0baa9fe7a71 [199.237.131.225]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:19:32 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"3FMB_.0.-v.DFGbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13834
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:57 PM 12/14/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
>Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 6:04 PM
>Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
>
>
>>Let me try that one more time!   It's difficult adjusting to a new
>>paradigm, and I have too many things going on at once here.
>>
>>The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
>>of gravity:
>>
>>    F=G*m1*m2/d^2
>
>We don't ASSUME the Gravitational Constant "G"
>6.67E-11 Newton-Meter^2/kilogram^2. It has been measured out to 10 decimal
>places.  :-)


Difficult to adjust to new paradigms, eh?  8^)


>
>>
>>is in the new paradigm actually:
>>
>>    F=G1*G2*m1*m2/d^2
>
>This gives you (6.67E-11)^2* m1*m2/d2 which throws the gravitational forces
>off by 66.7 trillion! Where was your Full Moon located last night?


Did it occur to you  that possibly G1*G2 = G in some circumstances?  The
value of neither G1 nor G2 was specified.


>>
>>with G2 the aggregate "G" for the earth. There is no longer a true unique G
>>except historically or normatively in this paradigm.  The strength of the
>>gravitational field at the surface of the earth is still just plain g,
>
>g is not a force it is an acceleration 9.8 meters/second^2


Sorry, not in the new paradigm, it is only a field strength, modified by
the value of Fg for the individual mass to get the actual acceleration.  I
didn't say it was a force.  Fg stands for "factor of Mt relating to g" not
"force g".


[snip]
>>The subject post indicates the Eotvos balance showed "Inertial effects were
>>greater than gravitational ones."   If this were true by a significant
>>margin, then it seems to me the (Fa/Fg)^0.5 effect would clearly be seen
>>with ordinary pendula.
>
>I think it is penduli?  :-)
[snip]


Actually it's "pundulums" these days, but old guys like us can probably get
away with the original "pendula".  8^))


>I'm not about to "swim upstream" if I can avoid it. :-)
>
>Regards,    Frederick


Well, this whole thing was intended, at least in part, to demonstrate that
you don't have to.  Guess I didn't succeed.  8^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 02:36:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05065;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:21 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3494F790.6D990397 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 04:25:36 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Death of Dr. Paul Brown
References: <34939F15.55DC keelynet.com> <19971214.203927.9598.1.tv@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"H844l1.0.3F1.hUGbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13835
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tim D Vaughan wrote:

 "I am very sad to receive the news of Paul Brown's
 passing in the tragic accident. 
 ...
 His books were the best I have found on the
 topic of nuclear batteries, especially resonant.
 
  Tim ( tv juno.com )"

Would someone tell me where to order Paul Brown's
books.  His article in the 13/14 "Infinite Energy"
was impressive.  I'm especially interested in any
of his writings on the difference between inertial 
mass and gravitational mass.

Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 05:05:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14595;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:02:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:02:41 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: A&Z, overview
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:58:34 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971215130524005.AAB127 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"W3u_V1.0.wZ3.jfIbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13836
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I've been pretty hard on Rich, and I want to take a moment to salute a
worthy opponent who has forced me to dig carefully into the A&Z paper to
meet his concerns. As I've said several times during the debate, my only
basic quarrel with Rich has been his distribution of hasty conclusions,
stated in pejorative language, to his distribution list where they get
accepted as facts. He is a diligent digger. 

Rich has been tenacious in looking for mundane explanations for
experimental results, as a durable skeptic should. 

Let me speculate a bit about what A&Z Figs 8a,b,c and 9 may be telling us. 

The first thing we have to get past is that the irregular data is noise
from the calorimetry or sloppy lab setup, but represents real measurements
of the system. I have argued that the calibration data of Fig 6, scaled to
Fig 8a,b give a "noise" envelope ~5 KJ/hr, or 1 mm wide. This still leaves
a question as to what is going in with 8a that is different from 8b? And
how was 8c derived?

Fig 8a is for a run with 3 mg of Pd-black, 8b for a run with 5 mg of
Pd-black. We don't know the exact dimensions of the capsules, or the
percent fill. The particles are very fine, in fact the finer the better,
from Fig 7. Dumping them in would produce a loose fill with many voids. The
particles evidently get very hot, from the photomicrographs on p40, which
show evidence of partial melting and fusion of particles. 

It would be very interesting to see an expanded time base, for Fig 8a
suggests varying cell output which is almost cyclical in nature. What could
be happening? I now begin to speculate, and invite commentary by those more
expert than I. 

We aren't sure of the area of the cathode capsule, but it isn't huge, and
it gets very hot inside, as evidenced by the fused particles and high
pressure. There could be very vigorous activity at the cathode-electrolyte
interface. There will be bubbling from the dissociation of the D2O2 --
remember the electrolysis power is in the 130 watt region -- which will
locally reduce the contact of the cooling electrolyte from the capsule
surface, resulting in hot spots at which incipient or real boiling could
occur -- before the dynamics of the fluid electrolyte push cooler fluid
into contact with the hot spot. The fluid dynamics inside of the cell might
set up an oscillatory condition that will repeatedly change the contact
area, the cell resistance, and thereby the instantaneous power into the
electrolysis process. 

What about the larger trends, glitches, and the big rise and drop at ~3700
hours if Fig 8a? The LENR process involves the migration of D ions into the
Pd-black. Discussion in the paper indicates that this is a strong function
of the particle size, something that Arata has been studying for decades.
We don't know if the runs of Figs 8a and 8b were done with the same
particle size. It might be that the Pd-black structure is changing so that
the LENR parameters also change with time. The rise and abrupt drop at
~3700 hrs in Fig 8a is indeed a puzzle. Something significant happened, we
don't know what. 

Fig 8b shows a much quieter process. It might be that with more Pd-black
the power generation becomes more stable. 

Fig 8c can simply be a re-sorting of the data points from Figs 8a and 8b. 

Rich suggests that Arata might furnish capsules to others for test. This
has been done with other CF cathodes among researchers, with the finding
that a cathode found to be good by A also works for B. I doubt this will
happen in the case of Arata, for the following reasons. 

The A&Z experiment is complex and they have been working up to it for some
time. Just giving an Arata cathode to someone else and seeing it produce
excess heat does not establish anything new. Other cathodes also produce
excess heat. Arata's may work better, because of the internal Pd-black, but
this doesn't seem a path to commercial development. The issue of the
experiment was the production of nuclear ash, which was found. Others
repeating the experiment would also have to use the QMS setup, a nontrivial
investment. 

Others have reported the presence of He in targets. It isn't new. What is
new is the thorough, definitive nature of the A&Z experiment. 

I think it fair to say that with the A&Z paper, the following is proven
beyond reasonable doubt

1) Substantial excess energy is produce by heavily deuterated Pd
2) The process is a LENR, with "nuclear ash" in the form of 4He and 3He is
produced
3) The reactions do not produce gamma and neutron radiation as expected
from plasma fusion
4) New theoretical work is needed to understand the phenomenon

A&Z have made a beginning with their "Lattice Hall" model. It is now time
for the physics community to stop denying the Existence of the P&F effect
and to start to understand it. The denial should also stop with respect to
other reports and experiments which individually may not be as strong as
A&Z, but collectively are clues to the nature of the LENR. 

Further research toward understanding is one fork, "the road less traveled
by". The other fork leads to commercialization. CETI is already well down
that road with a different LENR. Russ George has noted that Arata has
recommended to his government the further development of the sonofusion
method of loading instead of his research capsule. 

What CF needs badly is a body of theory which will so characterize the LENR
that good cathodes can be made at will and in any size and quantity. Then
we can see CF demonstrations at science fairs, experimenter kits at Radio
Shack, and appliances at Kmart. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 06:21:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21487;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:13:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:13:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0bae459e019 [199.237.131.235]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:14:55 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"G3DEK2.0.fF5.whJbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13837
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:54 AM 12/13/97, ralph muha wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>>attraction between masses):
>>
>>Aluminum    130
>>Zinc        100
>>Tin         100
>>Lead         93
>>Silver       80
>>Bismuth      72
>>
>>Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.


The pendulum swing is not independent of inirtia.  If we assume the force
of gravity:

    F=G*m1*m2/d^2

is in the new paradigm actually:

    F=G1*G2*m1*m2/d^2

with G2 in our example, the aggregate "G" for the earth, and approximately:

    G2=Gearth=2.5831373 m^3/2*kg^-1/2*s^-1

which we could designate a new unit, G^1/2, or a groot.

There is no longer a true unique G except historically or normatively in
this paradigm.  Using the above values for metals we get:

    Metal       G1

    Aluminum    1.30 groots
    Zinc        1.00 groots
    Tin         1.00 groots
    Lead        0.93 groots
    Silver      0.80 groots
    Bismuth     0.72 groots


The strength of the gravitational field at the surface of the earth is
still just plain g, but to calculate the actual force we must adjust some
measure of "true mass" Mt1 of the affected object by a factor Fg1 =
G1/Gearth to obtain observed gravitational mass Mg1 = Mt1*Fg1.  Fg1 for the
above metals thus are:

    Metal       Fg

    Aluminum    1.30
    Zinc        1.00
    Tin         1.00
    Lead        0.93
    Silver      0.80
    Bismuth     0.72

To obtain the apparent mass of acceleration Ma1 for object 1 we have Ma1=
Mt1*Fa1, the same mass Mt is multiplied by Fa1 = a1/a, where a1 is
acceleration observed at constant force by the true mass unit Mt1 vs the
acceleration a observed for typical aggregate mass with Fg1=1.   The true
mass Mt of an object must then be based on some uniform property, like
number of atoms, or fundamental particles of differing kinds, but then
adjusted to equivalent grams to avoid the need to make Mg1 = k1*Mt1*Fg1 and
Fa1 = k1*Mt*Fa1, where there is a unique k1 for each particle type.  The
adjustment factors Fa and Fg would be unique for each particle, and would
be a weighted sum for a gross object.  We don't have values of Fa for the
above metals, but it is implied the differences from unity are greater.

The force at displacement x of the pendulum then is:

    F=(Mt*Fg*g/l)*x.

If we substitute (Mt*Fg*g/l) for k in the formula for simple harmonic
motion, i.e.:

   T=2*Pi*(Mt*Fa/k)^0.5

then we get:

   T=2*Pi*(l*(Mt*Fa/(Mt*Fg*g))^0.5
   T=2*Pi*(l/g*(Fa/Fg))^0.5

therefore the harmonic motion is affected as (Fa/Fg)^0.5.

The subject post indicates the Eotvos balance showed "Inertial effects were
greater than gravitational ones."   If this were true by a significant
margin, then it seems to me the (Fa/Fg)^0.5 effect would clearly be seen
with ordinary pendula.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 06:35:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23377;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:33:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:33:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712151432.GAA22827 norway.it.earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Computer stolen
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:36:40 +0000
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman macsrule.com>
In-Reply-To: <199812142150.WAA02925 mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
References: <199812142150.WAA02925 mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"7k8dE1.0.Aj5.g-Jbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13839
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I saw once in a MacUser magazine an article of a man who lost his powerbook... luckily, he made a startupscreen with his name and phone number, and a message offering a reward just in case it was lost and recovered...  Adding something like this with a st
artup-password protection just might increase your chances of recovering it... However, CALL APPLE! They will put your serial number on report, and if anyone tries to get support or anything for it, BOOM... Good luck...


biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr said in Computer stolen at 14/Dec/1998 (Mon) 22:50:15.

Hi,

I am not proud of it, but Saturday, while in the metro in Paris, someone 
stole my great Mac PowerBook computer 3400! It was  a great machine, 
expensive plus with all kinds of data, and Email messages in it. Obviously 
I did not have a back up copy of it, so I lost everything! I had just 
ordered an internal Zip drive for that purpose. After the initial shock 
that filled me of guilt, (the rape syndrom : the raped woman feels guilty) 
I got back to my senses, and checked what was still working: basically 
everything except my compuetr that was gone... 

I felt like coming out of a crash checking what was still operational : I 
could move my hands, arms, feet , legs... Well I was OK!!

One of the problems I have, is that I have lost lots of E-mail addresses, 
and I had some messages waiting for replies when I was going to have time.

So please all of you who feel that I did not answer your mails repost your 
messages.

Conclusion:

I could loose more than a computer!

Jean-Paul Biberian
 



Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 06:36:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00176;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:29:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:29:39 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0baec43bbf8 [199.237.131.236]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 05:31:58 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"uh2UR.0.a2.HxJbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13838
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It may be of interest that in the Cavendish experiment, it using a torsion
pendulum, there is primarily force between the balls, and possible unwanted
lateral influences, but there is also a downward component based on Gearth.
This is due to the geometry of the torsion bar.  The torsion bar, being
three dimensional, must have a width.  As the torsion bar turns, due to
geometric considerations, it must shorten, thus lifting the cross bar and
weights.  It seems possible to do the experiment with greatly reduced
torsion, thus greater influence of the earth, by hanging the bar from two
separate strings.  Almost the entirety of the harmonic motion is then based
on the distance of lifting of the weight bar being in proportion to the
angle of rotation.  By doing the experiment these 2 different ways, using
different elements for masses, it should be possible to distinguish Fa from
Fg, or determine that they are equal.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 07:48:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01675;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:41:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:41:51 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:41 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A81 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"BnSSA1.0.5Q.y-Kbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13841
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net

Rich Murray presents another triumph of imagination. As usual, every assertion
he makes is wrong. If he bothered to read the literature he would know that,
but it would spoil his style, which is unburdened by the limitations of
prosaic reality. He says:

     Again, I note, as I have over and over, that we are not given such
     details as the actual input and output T values and delta T values, the
     actual voltages, currents, and resistances, the total amount of cooling
     water, the actual flow rates and variations of flow rates, the number
     and timing of calibrations, during four years of runs.

As Mark Twain put it, only an editor or a man with worms should call himself
"we." Murray may not have such details, but I do because I have read Arata's
other papers. I'll grant I have an unfair advantage since many of them are in
Japanese.


     Scott Little kept his input power levels, continuously recorded, at
     constant levels, usually for a day or more. His graphs show that his
     flow calorimetry can take up to two hours to stabilize . . .

Right. We can make a universal claim about "flow calorimetry" because all flow
calorimeters are the same. Arata's flow rate is ten times larger than Little's
and there is no telling what the heat transfer coefficient of the cooling
coils may be, but we'll ignore minor details. I've seen flow calorimeters take
10 minutes to stabilize, but so what? We'll simplify the problem.  We will
take a statement made by Scott Little out of context and arbitrarily apply
it to all flow calorimeters.


     There is no clear correlation of pressure and power for these first five
     days.

     So, there was in this event again, no correlation of pressure and power,
     especially since pressure continued to decline steadily upon resumption
     of power.  Cell Power did not rise until a day after resumpiton of
     power, even though pressure was nearly 700 atm.

Why would Murray expect this correlation? Nothing in the literature would
lead him to expect it. There is never a simple correlation between input
power and output power in a CF experiment. Output power is governed by many
different parameters including input current density. "Pressure" on the
microscopic scale is a complex phenomenon. If output corresponded to input
exactly, I would suspect a systematic error.


     [It is not clear if only the electrolysis power was off, or also the
     cooling flow.]

Why would anyone turn off the cooling flow while doing flow calorimetry? How
would you record data? Output would drop to zero and stay as flat as a
pancake. This statement is preposterous. It is like saying: "it is not clear
whether the chart recorder was used after the paper ran out."


     Again, there is no correlation between pressure and power.

Again, there never is. Well, okay, there is, but it is complicated by many
other factors. Expecting a simple one-to-one correlation is like expecting
that a Franklin stove will instantaneously produce more heat when you cram a
load of wet firewood into the firebox. Sometimes, it goes out. Sometimes you
forget to open the damper. Sometimes the wood wants splitting. In the real
world, CF and wood fires are controlled by many parameters, as are most other
chemical and nuclear reactions. City slickers who have never built a wood fire
in a Franklin stove may have peculiar ideas about how easy it is. Murray has
never seen a CF experiment. He has never performed any kind of calorimetry,
and he has not bothered to read basic literature on calorimetry,
electrochemistry or CF. He knows nothing about Arata. He admits he does not
even know the flow rate, Delta T temperature, or input power! So naturally he
has funny ideas about it. Bold, dangerous ideas, such as only a rank amateur
with no experience would entertain. I myself am a highly cautious amateur. If
I did not even know what Arata's input power looks like I would not publish
page after page of "critiques" here claiming that Arata's calorimetry is
terrible (or wonderful). The other day I was walking through the woods near my
house when I met five business men who were trying to cut down a tree to build
a bridge. They had selected a good sized tree in dense woods on a steep slope.
They had a brand new chainsaw and a bunch of rope, and they were on the verge
of bringing the tree down on someone's head. I confess I do not have much
experience cutting trees. Chain saws scare the hell out of me. But I've spent
a good deal of time in the countryside among farmers who manage orange groves
and hardwood stands. I know how dangerous it is, and how difficult. I would
not pontificate about it. I would not join a forestry forum on Internet and
publish "critiques" teaching grandpa how to cut trees or grandma how to suck
eggs!


     This weakens the case for deuterium nuclear reactions, and so points in
     the direction of calorimeter error or unknown artifacts.

Unknown artifacts! What a lovely phrase. It's about as scientific as
"bogeymen" or "evil spirits." It doesn't mean a thing, or it means anything
you like. Wave your hand three times and chant "error or unknown artifact" and
you can dismiss any data. Murray has not got a clue what could be wrong in
this experiment. He doesn't have a clue about what could be right either,
since he thinks you can turn off the flow and still do flow calorimetry. He
thinks all flow calorimeters take hours to stabilize. He probably still thinks
the electrolyte flows. Even if he doesn't I'll bet he is still circulating
that claim in his earlier "critiques." He probably still claims that Miley's
errors are 15%, even though Miley and I and many others have told him they are
2 to 3%. Once he makes a claim, Murray never retracts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 07:48:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09325;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:40:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:40:20 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:15 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: XSH & Precision Calorimetry
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A7F compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"-H1AA.0.dH2.ZzKbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13840
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Tom Stolper wrote:

     Rich Murray wrote, "What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an
     increase in the precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the
     size of the observed effect."

     Where does that assertion come from?  Who has ever reported an
     experimental correlation between greater calorimetric precision and less
     excess heat?

The assertion is not true. It has been spread by anti-cold fusion fanatics
like Dick Blue and Steve Jones. The best CF calorimetry I know of was
described by Stanley Pons. He used it to confirm that his cells remain in
boiling condition for months. This reaction is one of the biggest ever
reported, and it has the best calorimetry. SRI has some of the most precise
conventional calorimeters ever constructed for any purpose. They have
observed large effects.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 07:59:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11572;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:55:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:55:31 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:11:25 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Definitions of over unity
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A80 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"P-W9B.0.dq2.oBLbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13842
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz writes:

     Depends upon definition.

     If o/u includes mc^2 --> E conversions . . .

. . . then o/u is universal. All sources of energy convert mass to energy.
Chemical batteries, wind-up clocks, fission, fusion, cold fusion, and all
other sources and forms of energy always annihilate mass to produce energy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 08:28:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16503;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:24:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:24:52 -0800
Message-ID: <3495831C.2908 bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:21:00 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Dr. Brown's Death
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"5yrr12.0.n14.IdLbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13843
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I was very sad to hear of Dr. Paul Brown's untimely death.  This makes
four new energy researchers we have lost in the past year.  Does anyone
have further details surrounding the explosion?  Did it occur in his
lab?

I hope Dr. Brown was able to finish his remaining two articles in the
series begun in IE #13/14.  The first was most interesting.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 08:43:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19517;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:37:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:37:56 -0800
Message-ID: <01BD093D.E8800140.reed zenergy.com>
From: Reed Huish <reed zenergy.com>
Reply-To: "reed zenergy.com" <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'"
	 <freenrg-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Dr. Brown's Death
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:43:27 -0700
Organization: Zenergy Corporation
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zkCUm2.0.em4.YpLbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13844
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

I can't comment on his death, but I can on his life.  When I spoke to 
him about 1 month ago, he was very close to licensing of his 
technology to Asian concerns.  He was well funded, in his own 
laboratory, and a national laboratory had confirmed solid test 
results which had generated a flurry of interest from large 
corporations in the East.  Note - his technology is NOT over-unity, 
but a nuclear battery (he made this very clear to me when we spoke 
recently).  However, it is one step closer to the goal of cheap, 
clean, abundant energy for all humanity.

- Reed
  Zenergy
  http://zenergy.com

> I was very sad to hear of Dr. Paul Brown's untimely death.  This
> makes
> four new energy researchers we have lost in the past year.  Does
> anyone
> have further details surrounding the explosion?  Did it occur in
> his
> lab?


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 09:01:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23339;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:53:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:53:52 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:54:07 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712151654.RAA22743 imaginet.fr>
X-Sender: lentin mail.imaginet.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin imaginet.fr>
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke birthday
Resent-Message-ID: <"kd6jb1.0.Ci5.Q2Mbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13845
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts Vorts

Arthur C. Clarke will be 80, tomorrow, December 16th.
Does anyone has his email ?
(This should not invade his privacy - I read recently that he has 8
secretaries to process his e-mail !)

Cheers to all
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 09:40:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01316;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:32:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:32:06 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:26:42 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd097e$9c2d84c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"7vRb33.0.LK.JcMbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13846
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sunday December 15, 1997 6:04 PM, Horace wrote:

>It's difficult to adjust to a new paradigm,

None needed.

"G", the gravitational constant 6.67E-11 Nt-meter^2/Kg^2 factors out to a
magnetostatic property:

1.0E-7 nt/ampere^2 * (0.02583 ampere-meters/Kg)^2

It can be shown that ANY PARTICLE has an intrinsic magnetostatic pole
strength of 3.5E-13 ampere-meters
relativistically dilated (a gamma) of 1/(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2.

Thus the undilated force between any two particles of unit mass separated
one meter would be:
 1.0E-7*(3.5E-13)^2 = 1.23E-32 newtons

However,for a force between two protons at unit separation is 1.0E-7 *
(0.02583)^2 *(m)^2 = 1.84E-64 newtons, indicating a relativistic gamma of
(1.23E-32/1.84E-64)^1/2
= 8.2E15 indicating that the matter-wave in the sub-atomic particles is
moving very close to c.

A similar approach for two electrons separated by one meter
indicates a dilation (gamma) of 1.5E19 suggesting that the gamma decreases
with increase in particle energy-mass ie.,
the velocity approaching c decreases as the mass increases.

Since different materials-atoms have measured differences in their nuclear
and macro properties (including temperature effects) with 5A-Z particles in
each atom, it comes as no surprise that gravitational forces will vary
slightly between different materials and between materials with a
temperature difference.

Regards,     Frederick


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 09:51:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05198;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:58 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007806b0bb1c72f2ce [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <v0311070eb0b85cccf06f [206.243.174.18]>
References: <v01530504b0b848db4499 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:44 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"5Xvw5.0.4H1.8sMbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13847
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Ralph Muha posted:

>>Brush [...] clearly
>>demonstrated that different substances fall at different rates, and
>>pendulums made of equivalent masses of different substances have different
>>periods (which is another way of saying the same thing).
>>
>>Tests using a Eotvos balance showed (with zinc taken as a standard for
>>attraction between masses):
>>
>>Aluminum    130
>>Zinc        100
>>Tin         100
>>Lead         93
>>Silver       80
>>Bismuth      72
>>
>>Inertial effects were greater than gravitational ones.

If this is true, then astronomers could not predict the positions of the
planets precisely, nor could NASA 'hit' distant planets with their probes.
The planets and the probes all have different compositions, but the
trajectory calculations assume that G is the same for all. The constant-G
calculations seem to keep agreeing with reality.  I would suspect the
measurements that yielded the above list.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 10:58:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21472;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:53:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:53:04 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971215135331.006a7350 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:53:31 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Definitions of over unity
In-Reply-To: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A80 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"OkWWl2.0.KF5.EoNbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13848
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 10:11 AM 12/15/97 -0500, Jed wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz writes:
>
>     Depends upon definition.
>
>     If o/u includes mc^2 --> E conversions . . .
>
>. . . then o/u is universal. All sources of energy convert mass to energy.
>Chemical batteries, wind-up clocks, fission, fusion, cold fusion, and all
>other sources and forms of energy always annihilate mass to produce energy.
>

  Thanks Jed.

    Good point.  That should have been 

   "If o/u includes NUCLEAR mc^2 --> E conversions . . ."

  Mitchell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 12:32:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17403;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:22:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:22:30 -0800
Message-ID: <349583D0.31FD earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:24:00 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: re Rothwell: Murray: Another Arata Errata
References: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A81 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"TvZxT1.0.jF4.46Pbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13849
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 15, 1997

Dear all,  I wondered if the power cutoffs in Arata's Fig. 9 were due to
a general power interruption, in which case electrolysis input power and
cooling flow would both be interrupted, perhaps for different lengths of
time.

Perhaps Rothwell, with his expert command of Japanese, could call Arata
& Zhang, and inquire as to the reasons for the cutoffs, the typical
levelling-off response time of their flow calorimetry, and into the
possibility of other labs testing their cathodes for excess heat
production-- after all, very existence of the dozen members of The Order
of the Tortoise is a solid indication that many positively prejudiced,
competent participants in cold fusion dialogues and experiments are not
yet convinced of the reality of excess heat in any cold fusion system.

We hope that Rothwell will promptly share with all of Us the many
details from other papers about the Arata & Zhang experiments, to
advance the level of the discussion:  I, of course, am using the Royal
We.

We can mail copies of the 56-page Arata & Zhang report, minus many
papers on their "lattice-quake" theory, to any One who wants to
undertake a detailed scruntiny.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 12:53:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20758;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:47:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:47:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34958971.54C8 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:48:01 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu
Subject: Blue: questions re CF claims
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"n5GSR3.0.G45.ITPbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13851
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from pilot05.cl.msu.edu (pilot05.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.15])
	by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12809
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:51:28 -0800 (PST)
Received: (blue localhost)
	  by pilot05.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10)
          id NAA109686; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:51:16 -0500
Message-Id: <199712151851.NAA109686 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Rothwell:  Blue: CR calorimetry errors
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:51:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <3491B48F.47F2 earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Dec 12, 97 04:02:55 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text/plain

>
> To: Vortex
>
> Here are some comments that may be coming from Richard Blue and may be coming
> from Rich Murray. I can't tell. If they are Blue's comments I would ask Rich
> Murray to let Blue speak for himself here. Anyway, I'll address a few of them:


>
>      What Jed and Mike have never explained is why an increase in the
>      precision of the calorimeter leads to a reduction in the size of the
>      observed effect.
>
> We don't have to explain that. It isn't true. Blue has been repeating that for


> years, as if repeating nonsense will make it the truth.

RB To test the truth of this matter I propose that Jed select the most precise
RB CF experiments that he believes demonstrated any CF effect.  We can then
RB evaluate the experiments he believes show the largest CF effects relative
RB to those he selects as being the more precise.
>
> >      The only response of the advocates to experiments such as those by Tom
>      Droege is to assert that they did not use "the correct protocol."  Of
>      course the correctness remains to be defined when the results are in
>      hand.
>
> The correct protocols are defined in the electrochemical literature predating
> cold fusion, and in papers written after 1989 specifically about cold fusion.
> Blue, Droege and Murray have never read these papers. They claim no such
> papers exists. They think that if they refuse to look at the literature it
> will disappear. Droege's cells contained filth, cat hairs and dead insects,
> according to his collaborator who disassembled them after each experimental
> run. Such ingredients are definitely outside of the correct protocol.
>
RB I admit to being at a disadvantage with respect to Jed when it comes to
RB having had a spy within the Droege camp to count the cat hairs and dead
RB insects remaning.  What I doubt, however, is that Jed also had a spy
RB checking to see that every successful CF experiment met the demands of
RB of this so-called protocol.


>
> Of course it has. CF cells produce helium, tritium, neutrons and
> transmutation. These are actual measure of nuclear reactions independent of
> calorimetry. That was the main point of the Arata paper.
>
RB So is the case for cold fusion to be based on a single paper and is the
RB the Arata result definitive with respect to the reaction products produced
RB in a cold fusion reaction?  If that is so we do indeed now have just what
RB I  have been calling for, a standard by which we can judge other CF claims.
RB Off hand I would say that it's going to be difficult to defend lots of those
RB other experimental results that are not in agreement with Arata on such
RB thngs as ratios of the various reaction products.
RB In particular Prof. Miley is, it seems, in total disagreement with Arata
RB as he claims that the Patterson cell derives its energy from massive
RB transmutations.  I also am still puzzled about deuterium versus hydrogen as
RB the fuel.  Can you clear up any of these points, Jed?







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 13:01:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20403;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:43:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:43:30 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34958886.4772 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:44:06 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu
Subject: Blue: questions re Arata loading
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7D0079925FC8"
Resent-Message-ID: <"UmWdk3.0.j-4.mPPbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13850
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------7D0079925FC8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 15, 1997

Dear all,   Rothwell asked:

"Why would Murray expect this correlation? Nothing in the literature
would lead him to expect it. There is never a simple correlation between
input power and output power in a CF experiment. Output power is
governed by many different parameters including input current density.
"Pressure" on the microscopic scale is a complex phenomenon. If output
corresponded to input exactly, I would suspect a systematic error."

In Fig. 9, Arata & Zhang write:

"Relation beween pressure Pc [atm] inside "Particles-Gap", and cell
power (excess energy)  Q. (KJ/hr).  Note:  Pc-inner pressure inside
DS-cathode which includes only both pure Pd-black and pure deuterium
("spillover deuterium"), can be rising up several thousands atmosphere
[atm] by the phenomenon of the "spill-over effect".  It serves as one of
the most important factor for generation of nuclear reaction.  It is
very important phenomenon that the relation beatween Pc and Q. seems
that the generation of excess energy was corresponding to Pc
increased."  [Typos in the original.]

In response to their claim, I examined Fig.9 carefully and was and am
unable to agree that evidence exists there for the claimed "very
important phenomenon".

As one,  Rich Murray

--------------7D0079925FC8
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from pilot05.cl.msu.edu (pilot05.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.15])
	by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05311
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:02:07 -0800 (PST)
Received: (blue localhost)
	  by pilot05.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10)
          id MAA118041; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:01:39 -0500
Message-Id: <199712151701.MAA118041 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Murray: Another Arata Errata
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:01:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard A Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <349344E2.677D earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Dec 13, 97 08:30:58 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text/plain

Rich,
The logic of the assertion that the excess heat is proportional
to the electrolysis current somehow escapes me.  As I understand
it the Pd black in which the reaction is supposed to occur is
not exposed to the electrolyte, so that it is unlikely that any
current flows through this material.

If the significant parameter is the pressure to which the Pd black
is exposed and the pressure does not closely track the electrolysis
current don't we have good reason to suggest that any correlation
between current and heat output is meaningless?

Is Arata's use of electrolysis anything more than a poorly controlled
way to exposed his cathode material to high pressure?  Does Arata
ever demonstrate that his method is very effective in loading
the Pd black?  How is the loading determined?

Dick Blue


--------------7D0079925FC8--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 13:03:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22834;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:58:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:58:11 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0bb2e19d3cc [12.64.66.231]>
In-Reply-To: <v03007806b0bb1c72f2ce [198.133.146.230]>
References: <v0311070eb0b85cccf06f [206.243.174.18]>
 <v01530504b0b848db4499 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:57:54 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"lcf0V3.0.ga5.WdPbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13852
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael Schaffer wrote:

   >  If this is true, then astronomers could not predict the
   >  positions of the planets precisely, nor could NASA 'hit'
   >  distant planets with their probes. The planets and the
   >  probes all have different compositions, but the
   >  trajectory calculations assume that G is the same for
   >  all.

It probably averages out pretty close to 100%, or G in the end anyway given
various materials mixes. Silicon and oxygen weren't on the chart (was
iron?), so we don't know what the assumption is on them - maybe 100% G.
With the mix of materials, wouldn't the difference hide behind noise and
natural chaos in the systems anyway? Spacecraft might provide a better
opportunity to see a difference than planet orbits. But again, without a
pure aluminum or bismuth spacecraft, a possible small error might tend to
shuffle down close enough to G for it not to make any noticable difference.
I would think that even spurious electrostatic forces building up on
spacecraft would tend to cause larger errors. Brush's drop tests showed a
maximum difference in falling rate of one part in 140,000, according to one
reference to them. Yes, they could have been errors too. I don't know how
these experiments were done, and I'm sure there are objections to them.

In an article in Discover magazine, different labs were said to be having a
hard time nailing down G to a value any better than the historical one.
Some use brass(?), others use different materials - and the numbers are all
over the place. Makes you kind of wonder why, although experimental error
and unaccounted-for noise was being blamed. Kinda like CF?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 13:38:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28561;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:32:18 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971215163217_89515055 mrin52>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Murray: Another Arata Errata
Resent-Message-ID: <"Xohpq3.0.B-6.u8Qbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13853
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec. 13, Rich Murray wrote:

"Certainly, there is no evidence to indicate a positive correlation between
pressure in the Pd-Black inside the Pd cathode, which may be correlated with
level of deuterium loading, and Cell Power.  This weakens the case for
deuterium nuclear reactions, and so points in the direction of calorimeter
error or unknown artifacts."  

It also points in the direction of a new type of nonnuclear reaction as the
explanation for the excess heat, but that may be an inference almost as
distasteful to cold fusioneers as it is to skeptics.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 13:37:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01945;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:33:02 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971215163223_-891049553 mrin53>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Martin's suggestions welcome
Resent-Message-ID: <"CYgeY3.0.EU.C8Qbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13854
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior has suggested definitive tests of the CG transmutation cell.
 Definitive tests are important, by definition.  I hope that Peter Glueck and
others will be able to do them.

Nuclear chemistry looks like a very complicated field, much more complicated
than calorimetry.  The complications may explain why the transmutation claims
that have been made in the last year or two don't make any sense.  

They sound like the worst kind of data swamp.  Tantalizing hints near the
limits of detectability amount to a perpetual snipe hunt.  A researcher can
easily take a wrong turn in a swamp like that and then spend the rest of his
life trying to prove that he didn't make a mistake after all.

(Claytor's tritium work at Los Alamos is different matter altogether.  The
more one reads about it, the more solid it looks.  It's well above the limit
of detectability.  Claytor's work does show that a nuclear reaction can be
triggered at low energies; but it's not transmutation strictly speaking,
because it doesn't involve the production of one element from another.)

As for claims of large-scale transmutation by chemical means, they've been
nothing but a large-scale embarrassment for centuries, and that's what the
CG's claims of large-scale transmutations by electrochemical means look like,
too.  Peter Glueck would be doing us all a favor if he could dispose of them,
but it sounds as if he'd much rather prove them.

CETI's claims of large-scale transmutations by electrochemical means, as
allegedly demonstrated by their RIFEX kits, are worse than an embarrassment,
because they represent a major diversion of effort from the main event
(excess heat) by two of the best researchers in the field, James Patterson
and Dennis Cravens.  But Cravens and Patterson have done such good work with
excess heat that they and CETI will be able to survive RIFEX.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:04:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09497;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:59:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:59:03 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971215155821.009feb18 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:58:21 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Clarke-Hess test data
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-5MdF3.0.DK2.bWQbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13856
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Interested parties may view:

http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.html

which shows a 5 hour test run in which our new Clarke-Hess 2330 monitored
electrical input power to an ultrasonic xducer located inside a water-flow
calorimeter.  Several different power levels and xducer loads were used and
the agreement between the CH2330 and our heat power measurements is quite
good.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:06:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09614;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:59:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:59:28 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712152159.PAA21211 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b0bb2e19d3cc [12.64.66.231]> from Rick Monteverde at "Dec 15, 97 10:57:54 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:59:21 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"oU2h33.0.5M2.-WQbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13857
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Monteverde wrote:
> It probably averages out pretty close to 100%, or G in the end anyway given
> various materials mixes. Silicon and oxygen weren't on the chart (was
> iron?), so we don't know what the assumption is on them - maybe 100% G.
> With the mix of materials, wouldn't the difference hide behind noise and
> natural chaos in the systems anyway? Spacecraft might provide a better
> opportunity to see a difference than planet orbits. But again, without a
> pure aluminum or bismuth spacecraft, a possible small error might tend to
> shuffle down close enough to G for it not to make any noticable difference.

I haven't been following this thread, but good heavens, if you want to
see if aluminum is anomalously less attractive to gravitational field,
stick a clump on a scale and find out.

If you don't know how much aluminum is really there, there are chemical
means of establishing such (I'm thinking of the electrolytic process
where you get one atom tranported per X electrons.)

The nuclear binding energy of the elements and their isotopes are well
known, which means we know their number and average weight of each
proton and neutron.  We know the mass of the elements too by their
behavior in mass-spectrometers.

> In an article in Discover magazine, different labs were said to be having a
> hard time nailing down G to a value any better than the historical one.

You don't have to find the gravitational constant to find out if some
materials are lighter than others -- I know I'm heavier after a holiday
meal -- didn't need to re-evaluate the gravitational constant
to find that out. :-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:07:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09422;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:58:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:58:48 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:56:59 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd09a4$5e159080$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"P05ND3.0.3J2.MWQbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13855
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment


>Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
>   >  If this is true, then astronomers could not predict the
>   >  positions of the planets precisely, nor could NASA 'hit'
>   >  distant planets with their probes. The planets and the
>   >  probes all have different compositions, but the
>   >  trajectory calculations assume that G is the same for
>   >  all.
>
>It probably averages out pretty close to 100%, or G in the end anyway given
>various materials mixes. Silicon and oxygen weren't on the chart (was
>iron?), so we don't know what the assumption is on them - maybe 100% G.
>With the mix of materials, wouldn't the difference hide behind noise and
>natural chaos in the systems anyway?

Precisely.  :-)

Now all you have to do for your "Buck Rogers Type" Antigravity Belt, is
figure a way to put about 0.03 coulombs/meter-second * kilograms, down a
transmission line
terminated in it's characteristic impedance (with light bulbs)?    :-)

Just don't get too wrapped up in your experiment.  :-)

Regards,     Frederick

>
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:16:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12532;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:07:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:07:29 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:01:56 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Subject: Wip wot!Re: Definitions of over unity
In-Reply-To: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A80 compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215165928.18863B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"VdQOk1.0.h33.UeQbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13859
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


	Dear Vo.,

	How is a wind up clock mechanism converting matter to energy
.........???

	Q:  from below, see flag;

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: Vortex
> Mitchell Swartz writes:
>      Depends upon definition.
> 
>      If o/u includes mc^2 --> E conversions . . .
> 
> . . . then o/u is universal. All sources of energy convert mass to energy.
> Chemical batteries,

********** wind-up clocks, ***********

	How does this annihilate mass?
--------------------------------------------------
fission, fusion, cold fusion, and all
> other sources and forms of energy always annihilate mass to produce energy.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:18:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05155;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:07:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:07:55 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:02:02 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151705_MC2-2C12-9543 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"PHn7i2.0.RG1.ueQbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13858
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rich Murray writes:

     Perhaps Rothwell, with his expert command of Japanese, could call Arata
     & Zhang, and inquire as to the reasons for the cutoffs, the typical
     levelling-off response time of their flow calorimetry . . .

My command of Japanese is ordinary, not expert. I have difficulty
communicating with Arata in any language. I will not bother to call him
because I am satisfied with his calorimetry. Arata measures 50 to 150 watts of
excess power. Anyone can do that. Arata uses standard methods with
top-of-the-line equipment. Murray asserted that his equipment is obsolete, but
that isn't true.


     . . . after all, very existence of the dozen members of The Order of the
     Tortoise is a solid indication that many positively prejudiced,
     competent participants in cold fusion . . .

Who are the members? Have they performed experiments or published papers in
cold fusion, electrochemistry or calorimetry ? If not, they have no standing
in the field and their opinions are worthless. I presume you, Murray, are a
member. You are not "positively prejudiced." You are hopelessly biased. You
grasp at any straw to prove that Arata cannot measure 50 watts. You know
nothing about of calorimetry. First you said people do flow calorimetry
without a flowmeter. Now you claim they turn off the flow! Such a vigorous
imagination! Such inventiveness! What will you think up next? Maybe you should
multiply Miley's errors by five again, and claim they are 75%.


     We hope that Rothwell will promptly share with all of Us the many
     details from other papers about the Arata & Zhang experiments, to
     advance the level of the discussion . . .

Forget it. Anything I tell Rich Murray will be ground up and spit back in a
data soup "critique" compounded of errors, distortions, ignorance and insults.
He will say 3% = 15%. He'll claim Arata uses obsolete equipment. He'll say all
flow calorimeters have the same time constant. Why should I contribute to
that? Why would anyone do favors for Murray? As a matter of fact, I know
someone who did. Mark Hugo says he lent Murray a pen recorder because Murray
said he was going to wet his feet by doing a little calorimetry. How
interesting! I don't expect Murray will follow through, but if would be fun to
see him explain to the world how to do flow calorimetry with the flow turned
off. As I said, that works about as well as running the pen recorder with no
paper. (This is more than an analogy: the moving water acts as two dimensional
data strip.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:34:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18945;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:29:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:29:36 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:01:50 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Definitions of over unity
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151705_MC2-2C12-9541 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ROBGg2.0.fd4.DzQbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13860
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

To: Vortex

I pointed out that all sources and forms of energy annihilate mass. Mitchell
Swartz responded:

     Good point.  That should have been

     "If o/u includes NUCLEAR mc^2 --> E conversions . . ."

I hate to quibble, but I feel compelled to point out that you can simplify
this expression, as a mathematician would say. Since all ENERGY equals
"mc^2 --> conversions" we can write:

"If o/u includes NUCLEAR ENERGY . . ."

. . . which is the conventional way to express it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 14:43:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20360;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:33:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:33:17 -0800
Message-ID: <34961F4A.40D9 itl.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:27:22 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
References: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971210141835.6540D-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"I9_aO1.0.0-4.h0Rbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13861
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Martin Sevior wrote on 10th Dec:

<While I have some sympathy for Nick Palmers position his comments below 
show why there is a backlash against the Greens.>

I think they illustrate the gulf in understanding between us and those 
people who choose to believe the tidal wave of propaganda, 
misrepresentation, straw man arguments and disinformation currently being 
spread by those with vested interests. There are many foolish, gullible 
people who are "backlashing" - this is because, as Simon and Garfunkel 
sang, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

	I could spend a lot of bandwidth arguing why we were right, are 
right and will continue to be right but it basically comes down to 
realising that environmental arguments are based on the laws of biology, 
ecology, physics etc, and not the desires of greedy people.


Martin mentions:

< The rate of population growth is inversely proportional to access to 
energy. By all measures rising wealth has equated to lower population 
growth>

Superficially true. By similar logic, the rising crime rate is directly 
proportional to the growth in ownership of dishwashers so, if we get rid 
of all dishwashers, crime will disappear - I think not. The current idea 
is that the fall in rate of population growth that only appears to be 
related to increasing wealth/development is far more directly linked with 
female literacy and emancipation which is, of course, a one shot deal. I 
live in Jersey which has the highest rate of car ownership in the world 
and also generates the most domestic waste (more even than the 
conventionally accepted most wasteful nation on earth, the USA) - both 
measures of conventional economic growth and success. Our population 
probably has the highest average standard of living in the world. We 
actually passed laws a while ago to prevent business growth and new jobs 
because our economy has overtaken the space we have in our Island. We 
have plenty of money in the bank "for a rainy day", effectively no 
unemployment and no national debt/deficit. Our natural birth rate (not to 
mention attempted immigration rate) is *increasing* as we get wealthier. 
It seems obvious that people in developing countries have lots of kids to 
provide for their old age. As female "rights" increase, the childbirth 
rate declines until the point at which sufficient wealth is around to 
allow people to have more children again. I suppose we are experiencing 
the "emperor and harem" situation. The rest of the world ought to take 
note of this.

<Rising living standards results in improved technology deployment. In 
all cases these are far more efficient than what they replace>

Please give credit where it's due. Efficiency is a one shot deal. It 
would be more accurate to say increased demands for high environmental 
standards result in larger markets for improved technology to be 
deployed. 


Martin then says later on:

<That's why you guys can, could or do get in trouble when
you advocate rediculus solutions, like negative economic growth>

Which bona fide environmentalist is advocating this? Was Archie Bunker a 
professor of politics?. Beware the straw man arguments of the opposition. 
It should be obvious to the unblinkered that, without going off-planet, 
economic growth, as it is currently measured (by the incredibly primitive 
and misleading GDP and GNP), cannot continue indefinitely, just as a 
balloon cannot continue to inflate indefinitely.


M.S. also appears to claim that the planetary ecosystems can be 
"controlled easily" with "the correct negative feedback loops"

	How confident he is. Insanely so. How perfect he thinks our 
knowledge is; to take chances like this with our imperfect understanding 
is (Vortex rules forbid me). This reminds me of the story of the first 
atom bomb test. According to the film, the scientists warned the 
government advisers/military that there was a million to one chance that 
the explosion would cause a chain reaction in the atmosphere that would 
destroy everything. They took that chance. They had no right to. It was 
criminal (BTW, does any Vort know for sure if this warning was given in 
reality?)


<You guys have a role to play to ensure these feedback loops are in place 
and working>

Well, thank you for the vote of confidence. The true situation is that 
goverments world wide are integrating environmentalist strategy into 
their policies. Virtually everything that environmentalists have been 
campaigning for over decades is now accepted, at the heart of government, 
to be essential. Believe me, what many politicians say in public is not 
what they know in private. The American political situation is a bit of a 
lost cause at the moment because they are so incredibly dumb and/or 
corrupted by vested interests. In Britain, ministers at the highest level 
now admit that environmentalists were right all along. In the 
Teutonic/Scandinavian countries they are even further ahead of Britain. 
The clean up in assorted types of pollution didn't just happen, it was 
because of environmentalist logic. The same logic says that what we have 
achieved so far is not enough. Have you heard of Agenda 21? - that is 
pure 90's environmentalism. It is how we will be able to "sustain" 
civilisation, which is, of course, a consummation devoutly to be wished.

                                                        Nick Palmer
                                                        Jersey FoE

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 15:15:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27416;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:08:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:08:52 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:08:46 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Dr. Brown's Death
In-Reply-To: <01BD093D.E8800140.reed zenergy.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971215142731.248G-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"1lVGd2.0.Di6.2YRbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13862
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Reed Huish wrote:

> I can't comment on his death, but I can on his life.  When I spoke to 
> him about 1 month ago, he was very close to licensing of his 
> technology to Asian concerns.  He was well funded, in his own 
> laboratory, and a national laboratory had confirmed solid test 
> results which had generated a flurry of interest from large 
> corporations in the East.

Very sad news.  I hope his work doesn't vanish into the usual legal battle
which has swallowed others.  Knowing history, I wouldn't bet on ever
seeing a product come out of it.

I've always half-joked about the "Free Energy Curse" which keeps new
discoveries from ever seeing the light of day.  But even if the "curse"
originates in the psychology of inventors and scientists, it seems
extremely efficient in preventing success.

In my view, the F/E "curse" is composed of secrecy combined with the
tendency of science/society to reject new ideas.  Combining these two
gives an immutable force for the suppression of unconventional
discoveries.  It takes immense effort to penetrate the barriers of
disbelief and of greedy/shady dealing.  If we insist on keeping our
discoveries hidden, then we wreck our ability to defeat the barriers.

To paraphrase Greg Watson: Life is short!  Disclose everything!




> Note - his technology is NOT over-unity, 
> but a nuclear battery (he made this very clear to me when we spoke 
> recently).

But was Brown defining "o/u" as meaning "perpetual motion?"  Newman's
Motor is also supposed to be a nuclear battery, yet everyone agrees that
it is an "o/u device."  Was Brown's device totally based on conventional
physics, or did it harness low-energy "impossible" reactions like CF and
gunpowder-transmutation?  If the latter, if it would cause physicists to
sneer, then it's proper to call it an o/u device.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 15:19:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29594;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:16:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:16:54 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:16:48 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitions of over unity
In-Reply-To: <199712151705_MC2-2C12-9541 compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971215151132.248H-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"cETBC2.0.JE7.bfRbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13863
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> To: Vortex
> 
> I pointed out that all sources and forms of energy annihilate mass. Mitchell
> Swartz responded:
> 
>      Good point.  That should have been
> 
>      "If o/u includes NUCLEAR mc^2 --> E conversions . . ."

If "o/u device" means "device which extracts energy from a source or via a
method not currently recognized by science", then we use the term in the
way it most commonly appears.  Nukes aren't "o/u", but stimulating nuclear
reactions by high frequency electrical oscillators is "o/u".  And as soon
as maainstream science accepts the new idea, it ceases to be "o/u."


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 15:48:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02943;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:42:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:42:17 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:08:40 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Blue: questions re CF claims
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712151811_MC2-2C19-4AF0 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"CB38e2.0.uj.N1Sbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13865
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The last thing I want to do is getting into a pissing contest with Richard
Blue on this forum or anywhere else. However, I would like to take this
opportunity to plug our magazine. If Murray bends the rules by cross-posting,
I will smash the rules with a blatant self-serving commercial appeal, replete
with exclamation points. Imagine, please, that I am wearing a ratty toupee
and banging on the hood of a car in a late night used car salesman routine.
(I LOVE those things!) Hey, it's the Christmas season. We could use a
year-end bonus, so keep those cards and letters and subscriptions rolling in,
folks! Blue asks for the 14 millionth time:

     To test the truth of this matter I propose that Jed select the most
     precise CF experiments that he believes demonstrated any CF
     effect. . . .

I've done that. Buy our magazine! Read the web page! www.infinite-energy.com.
This is Ralf Spoilsport here at Spoilsport motors, just off Peachtree
Industrial Boulevard! Buy now!!! (Bang, bang!) Low year-end deals! Back
issues available!


     I admit to being at a disadvantage with respect to Jed when it comes to
     having had a spy within the Droege camp to count the cat hairs and dead
     insects remaning.

Tibbals was a collaborator, not a spy. He honestly reported the facts about
the experiment, instead of trying to cover them up the way Droege did. If
anyone was acting like a spy, it was Droege.


     So is the case for cold fusion to be based on a single paper . . .

No, lots of papers! Buy our magazine! Read the web page! Read the Miles helium
results fr' instance, in our latest issue!!!


     Off hand I would say that it's going to be difficult to defend lots of
     those other experimental results that are not in agreement with Arata on
     such thngs as ratios of the various reaction products. In particular
     Prof. Miley is, it seems, in total disagreement with Arata as he claims
     that the Patterson cell derives its energy from massive transmutations.

I don't recall he ever said what the cell derives energy from. I do not think
anyone knows. The CETI process creates massive transmutations, but so does
palladium D2O CF, as demonstrated by Mizuno, Bockris and Wolf. There are no
difficulties and no disagreement. CF produces helium and it transmutes the
host metal. My guess is that the energy derives from deuterium or hydrogen
fusion and the transmutations are a side effect. They may swallow up more
energy then they contribute, for all I know. I think hydrogen fusion gradually
destroys the host metal.


     I also am still puzzled about deuterium versus hydrogen as the fuel.

So is everyone else!


     Can you clear up any of these points, Jed?

I sure can! Buy our magazine, read the web page! Find out more in every issue!
(Whack! Bang!)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 15:49:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA30568;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:20:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:20:46 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:15:17 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Question about communications satellites
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215175945.18863F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"TlT5t.0.QT7.DjRbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13864
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods 
used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably 
some or a bunch I do not know about.
	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram 
target mass.
	I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied for and 
we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still working on 
the design for the kits.

				John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:19:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25418;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:12:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:12:23 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712160011.SAA23470 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215175945.18863F-100000 college> from John Schnurer at "Dec 15, 97 06:15:17 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:11:10 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KbT3p1.0.yC6.VTSbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13866
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Schnurer
> 	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
> myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
> satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods 
> used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably 
> some or a bunch I do not know about.
> 	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
> earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
> maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram 
> target mass.
> 	I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
> can work synergistically with them. 

It doesn't matter what they use now.  If you can give them continuous
gravity modification which only requires energy input (i.e. solar cells)
then they'll want it.  Reaction mass is expensive and scarce. 


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:24:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12782;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:18:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:18:59 -0800
Message-Id: <3495C84D.6F4CAC35 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:16:13 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Definitions of over unity
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971215151132.248H-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"BedBR1.0.a73.nZSbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13867
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

William Beaty wrote:
> 
> 
> If "o/u device" means "device which extracts energy from a source or via a
> method not currently recognized by science", then we use the term in the
> way it most commonly appears.  Nukes aren't "o/u", but stimulating nuclear
> reactions by high frequency electrical oscillators is "o/u".  And as soon
> as maainstream science accepts the new idea, it ceases to be "o/u."
> 

Yes, this should be most correct definition as the the term "over unity" is a contradictional term as no device could be modeled mathematically with over hundered percent of efficiency.

I hope no againt argument will be introduced and I could finally accept this definition with ultimate confidence. :-)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:31:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13361;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:21:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:21:37 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712160021.SAA23555 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
In-Reply-To: <34961F4A.40D9 itl.net> from Nick Palmer at "Dec 15, 97 10:27:22 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:21:28 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"O_ARv.0.WG3.FcSbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13868
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Nick Palmer writes:
> 	I could spend a lot of bandwidth arguing why we were right, are 
> right and will continue to be right but it basically comes down to 
> realising that environmental arguments are based on the laws of biology, 
> ecology, physics etc,

A tall claim, perhaps we should put it to the test ...

> Our natural birth rate (not to mention attempted immigration rate) is
> *increasing* as we get wealthier. 

Oops.  According to the US Census, births per 1000 females
trended thusly:

1987 71.0
1988 69.7
1990 67.0
1992 62.9
1995 61.4

This might be a case were you were wrong, are wrong, and continue to
be wrong. :-)

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:38:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16776;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:35:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:35:15 -0800
Message-ID: <3495BF11.3FCF earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:36:49 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Rothwell humor
References: <199712151811_MC2-2C19-4AF0 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mmold3.0.264.2pSbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13870
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 15, 1997

Dear all,  I enjoy Rothwell's spashy humor.  Infinite Energy is very
much worth subscribing.  I am very glad to have 32 pages on Melvin H.
Miles to probe.  I am getting a copy of McKubre's SRI report, so I'll be
making, in due time, a critique on that.  I'm surprised to hear nothing
yet about the Asti conference.  

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:41:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28105;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:32:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:32:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971215193159.00b7a100 spectre.mitre.org>
X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:31:59 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Robert I. Eachus" <eachus mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
Cc: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215175945.18863F-100000 college>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"AsVyT1.0.2t6.TmSbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13869
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 06:15 PM 12/15/97 -0500, John Schnurer wrote:
>	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
>myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
>satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods 
>used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably 
>some or a bunch I do not know about.
>	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
>earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
>maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram 
>target mass.
>	I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
>can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied for and 
>we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still working on 
>the design for the kits.
 
    Forget (just) station-keeping.  Imagine a spacecraft in a (circular)
Earth orbit.  Turn on your device for 1/2 orbit, and you now have a higher
apogee.  Turn the device off, and when the space craft gets to perigee,
turn it back on again.  Some adjustments will be required for the
non-spherical shape of the Earth, and solar and lunar effects, but you get
the picture.  It is like a child in a swing pumping.  Each orbit the
apogee, and the velocity through the perigee will be higher.  Now reverse
the phasing, and you will lift the perigee, but pull the apogee in.  Do
your timing right, and you either leave the Earth/Moon system with about a
1 mile/sec relative velocity, or reach a circular geosynchronous orbit.

    Current spacecraft devote about half of their LEO mass to doing either
one. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:52:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29572;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:43:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:43:22 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: re Rothwell: Murray: Another Arata Errata
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:41:19 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971216004612077.AAA200 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"g2FaW.0.vD7.cwSbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13872
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I invite Vortexians to examine the scan of A&Z Fig 9 I posted a while back,
and read Rich's recent comments about Fig 9 and my analysis of it. All this
so I don't repeat things endlessly.

Then please note this quote from Rich :
----------------
Dec. 15, 1997

Dear all,  I wondered if the power cutoffs in Arata's Fig. 9 were due to
a general power interruption, in which case electrolysis input power and
cooling flow would both be interrupted, perhaps for different lengths of
time.
-----------------
I duly note that he has not posted this bit of imagination as a conclusion.


However, Fig 9 shows a continuous line of dots recording cell power during
these supposed power cutoffs. The dots form a line, so with a further
exercise of imagination, one could suppose that the recording apparatus
also failed, and A&Z simply used a ruler to fill in the missing data. It
does look like a straight line, after all, and the pressures show
exponential decays as one might expect. But think of it, how was the cell
pressure recorded during these interruptions of 52 and 86 hours? Was this
data interpolated with a french curve? 

The cell was producing 20 KJ/hr when the "general interruption" occurred.
If the cooling water failed, is there not a good chance boiling might have
occurred? No, I'm sorry, Rich believes that no nuclear process was at work,
so of course this would not happen. 

Please note in my analysis that the Sievert law says that the loading of D
gas into the Pd black is a function of log(10) of the pressure in the
capsule. Hence the cell power plot could well be a logarithmic
representation of a process influenced by an exponentially decaying
pressure. 

I went to considerable and patient length to analyze Fig 9 and respond to
Rich's presumptive conclusions. I am very disappointed that he appears to
understand so little of what I wrote, that he would raise the question
quoted above. 

In response to a comment from Jed, Rich says: 
-------------
In Fig. 9, Arata & Zhang write:
"Relation between pressure Pc [atm] inside "Particles-Gap", and cell
power (excess energy)  Q. (KJ/hr).  Note:  Pc-inner pressure inside
DS-cathode which includes only both pure Pd-black and pure deuterium
("spillover deuterium"), can be rising up several thousands atmosphere
[atm] by the phenomenon of the "spill-over effect".  It serves as one of
the most important factor for generation of nuclear reaction.  It is
very important phenomenon that the relation between Pc and Q. seems
that the generation of excess energy was corresponding to Pc
increased."  [Typos in the original.]

In response to their claim, I examined Fig.9 carefully and was and am
unable to agree that evidence exists there for the claimed "very
important phenomenon".
---------------
Apparently my analysis of Fig 9 made no impression whatever on Rich. I am
again disappointed in his inability to understand what is before him. The
"spill over effect" does require study of many passages in the rest of the
paper. Since Rich has so much difficulty in understanding the simple matter
of the calorimetery, it is perhaps understandable that the discussion of
the processes inside the capsule escape him entirely, becoming effectively
invisible. 

Mike Carrell





----------
> From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Murray: re Rothwell: Murray: Another Arata Errata
> Date: Monday, December 15, 1997 2:24 PM
> 
> Dec. 15, 1997
> 
> Dear all,  I wondered if the power cutoffs in Arata's Fig. 9 were due to
> a general power interruption, in which case electrolysis input power and
> cooling flow would both be interrupted, perhaps for different lengths of
> time.
> 
> Perhaps Rothwell, with his expert command of Japanese, could call Arata
> & Zhang, and inquire as to the reasons for the cutoffs, the typical
> levelling-off response time of their flow calorimetry, and into the
> possibility of other labs testing their cathodes for excess heat
> production-- after all, very existence of the dozen members of The Order
> of the Tortoise is a solid indication that many positively prejudiced,
> competent participants in cold fusion dialogues and experiments are not
> yet convinced of the reality of excess heat in any cold fusion system.
> 
> We hope that Rothwell will promptly share with all of Us the many
> details from other papers about the Arata & Zhang experiments, to
> advance the level of the discussion:  I, of course, am using the Royal
> We.
> 
> We can mail copies of the 56-page Arata & Zhang report, minus many
> papers on their "lattice-quake" theory, to any One who wants to
> undertake a detailed scruntiny.
> 
> As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 16:52:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18108;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:40:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:40:37 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:35:08 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: more on satellite
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215193100.26457A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"llf0q.0.sQ4.3uSbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13871
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear vo.,

	I am thankful for the first two contributions, and any more that 
come.  I am still trying to get the information so I can make the dollars 
and cents case.  Please.  

	ALSO:  I am encouraged by these immediate positive notes!

	What it looks like we have now is possibly pulses of gravity, 
very easily seen as average.  Gravity communications is also a 
possibility, a real one.  Of course neither is going to get very far very 
fast unless I can make a case and find some entity to be partner or 
license or buy part of patent.  
All the research still comes of of my pocket... which is VERY thin under 
normal conditions!


					J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 17:09:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22750;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:03:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:03:03 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0bb82469ac9 [12.64.37.108]>
In-Reply-To: <199712152159.PAA21211 mirage.skypoint.com>
References: <l03102800b0bb2e19d3cc [12.64.66.231]> from Rick Monteverde at
 "Dec 15
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:03:32 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"D7IOt.0.OZ5.5DTbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13873
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:

   >  I haven't been following this thread, but good heavens,
   >  if you want to see if aluminum is anomalously less
   >  attractive to gravitational field, stick a clump on a
   >  scale and find out.

That's not the only question here. It's also about how that mass moves
freely in a gravitational field, not to be confused with accleration due to
being pushed against gravity by a 'real' force like a scale or a rocket
thruster. I was just responding to comments that NASA's craft wouldn't be
on target if the numbers were off. I'm not really sure how that would work
out, but I said I thought the numbers probably wash out to within the error
of the values used in calculations, even if there are tiny differences
between materials.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 17:35:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07916;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:30:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:28:52 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Wip wot!Re: Definitions of over unity
Priority: normal
References: <199712151014_MC2-2C06-9A80 compuserve.com>
In-reply-to: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215165928.18863B-100000 college>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <43DF4F61A8 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"EMkh_2.0.Vx1.RcTbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13874
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

> 	Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	How is a wind up clock mechanism converting matter to energy
> .........???
> 
> 	Q:  from below, see flag;
> 
> On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > To: Vortex
> > Mitchell Swartz writes:
> >      Depends upon definition.
> > 
> >      If o/u includes mc^2 --> E conversions . . .
> > 
> > . . . then o/u is universal. All sources of energy convert mass to energy.
> > Chemical batteries,
> 
> ********** wind-up clocks, ***********
> 
> 	How does this annihilate mass?
> --------------------------------------------------
> fission, fusion, cold fusion, and all
> > other sources and forms of energy always annihilate mass to produce energy.
> > 
> > - Jed


It's true!  A compressed spring will weigh more than one with no 
tension.  Ultimately, the potential energy is stored in chemical 
bonds which individually contain more energy when the spring is 
compressed (or stretched).  Thus you have to have a more massive 
system.  The amount of mass you have is a measure of the potential 
energy of the system.  If you violate this principle, you can get 
lots of neat ideas to work out.  For instance, you could have a 
"spring powered particle accelerator" (bear with me) that increases 
the mass of a particle by increasing it's velocity.  You could then 
use the accelerator itsself to move down the axis of a space craft, 
causing the spacecraft to move in the opposite direction.  But just 
before the accelerator comes to a stop on the back end of the giant 
spacecraft, you allow the particle to slow down and lose mass, so 
that when the accelerator does come to a stop, there is a net 
momentum given to the spacecraft and you have a reactionless drive!  
Unfortionately, this can't work if you take into account the stored 
energy (and thus mass) in the spring.

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 18:00:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05268;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:58:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:58:05 -0800
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:57:43 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215175945.18863F-100000 college>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <445A763A4E hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"uh0QY1.0.8I1.h0Ubq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13876
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> 	Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
> myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
> satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods 
> used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably 
> some or a bunch I do not know about.
> 	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
> earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
> maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram 
> target mass.
> 	I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
> can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied for and 
> we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still working on 
> the design for the kits.
> 
> 				John Schnurer
> 

Hi John.
I know you called for "information", but I've got a question 
regarding your idea.  Would this device violate momentum 
conservation?  Suppose we have a satellite in orbit about the sun 
with your device on board.  Your device will run off solar energy 
from a solar cell.  Now, in some period of time you get a certain 
amount of energy E (through the solar cells).  You will also pick up 
a certain amount of momentum in the amount of P=E/c.  Now, if we use 
your device to reduce the gravitational pull on the satellite, you 
will get an additional momentum away from the sun without expenditure 
of any mass.  Unless your device has used the potential energy stored 
to emit some kind of particle (graviton?) in the direction of the 
sun, it would seem that momentum conservation would be violated.  
Say, this is FUN!  Do you have a web page describing your device?

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 18:00:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04499;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:55:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:55:49 -0800
Message-ID: <34964FE5.1E87 itl.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:54:45 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
References: <199712160021.SAA23555 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"eZk_9.0.A61.Z-Tbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13875
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote (thus demonstrating how it seems to be impossible to 
get through to those who will not see):

<<A tall claim, perhaps we should put it to the test ...

<<> Our natural birth rate (not to mention attempted immigration rate) is
<<> *increasing* as we get wealthier.

<<Oops.  According to the US Census, births per 1000 females
<<trended thusly:

<<1987 71.0
<<1988 69.7
<<1990 67.0
<<1992 62.9
<<1995 61.4

<<This might be a case were you were wrong, are wrong, and continue to
<<be wrong. :-)


As usual, no "oops". You obviously, like some of the others on this list, 
pay little attention  to what was actually written in the message you are 
replying to. Here in Jersey, the birth rate is increasing - pray tell of 
what relevance are the US census figures to us?
	The Jersey I live in is a part of Great Britain. Like most 
Americans, you seem to be oblivious of the fact that what you call Jersey 
was named after us. Our Governor called your place New Jersey when he was 
unfortunate enought to be there.
	Obviously yet another case where we are right etc etc. 8-} 
Seriously though it seems impossible to me that this ridiculous "we know 
better than environmentalists" attitude persists. In America I suspect 
it is because the level of propaganda and weird and twisted argument that 
you get from your media and news channels is so all pervasive. America 
was regarded as a pariah at the recent climate negotiations at Kyoto 
because of the appallingly greedy and selfish position that it took.

                                                         Nick Palmer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 18:24:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16754;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:18:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:18:22 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RQM energy device
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:16:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <349ae298.7602329 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]>
In-Reply-To: <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"69j.0.b54.gJUbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13877
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:50:15 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Someone asked about Swiss francs. They're trading at 1.437 per US dollar,
>or about 70 cents each. A 10kw RQM unit selling for 30,000 SF would cost
>about $21,000. Amortize that (include the minimal time-value of the money
>spent) against typical household electricity consumption - I doubt many of
>us would live to see breakeven.
>
>But you could say "hey man, I'm off the grid!", and somewhere a child would
>not get lung disease.
>
>*** IF *** it works...
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
Perhaps prices will come down with mass production (and hopefully
reliability go up ).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 18:34:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16301;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:29:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:29:51 -0800
Message-ID: <3495E7CD.D89B4DA0 dcache.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:30:37 -0500
From: "James J, Jiamachello" <jiamache dcache.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9D6925C5D227E5366E24C58A"
Resent-Message-ID: <"mJbiX.0.U-3.SUUbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13878
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--------------9D6925C5D227E5366E24C58A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nick Palmer wrote on 15th, Dec.

>This reminds me of the story of the first
>atom bomb test. According to the film, the scientists warned the
>government advisers/military that there was a million to one chance
that
>the explosion would cause a chain reaction in the atmosphere that would

>destroy everything. They took that chance. They had no right to. It was

>criminal (BTW, does any Vort know for sure if this warning was given in

>reality?)

>From Day One, Before Hiroshima and After , by Peter Wyden,
ISBN:  0-671-46142-7, pp50-51

"Oppenheimer reconvened the meetings in Berkley and Bethe reported that
Teller's mathematics, while essentially accurate, had overlooked the
heat that would be absorbed by radiation.
   What about the end of the world?
   "It couldn't happen," said Teller.
  The others were not so certain.  Eventually they computed the
chances for Compton:  three in a million.  It seemed a reasonable risk
to go ahead."

The alternative they were choosing against was the sucess of the Nazi
war machine.

Ya pays yer money. an takes yer chances.

Jim

--------------9D6925C5D227E5366E24C58A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Nick Palmer wrote on 15th, Dec.

<P>>This reminds me of the story of the first
<BR>>atom bomb test. According to the film, the scientists warned the
<BR>>government advisers/military that there was a million to one chance
that
<BR>>the explosion would cause a chain reaction in the atmosphere that
would
<BR>>destroy everything. They took that chance. They had no right to. It
was
<BR>>criminal (BTW, does any Vort know for sure if this warning was given
in
<BR>>reality?)

<P>From <U>Day One, Before Hiroshima and After</U> , by Peter Wyden,
<BR>ISBN:&nbsp; 0-671-46142-7, pp50-51

<P>"Oppenheimer reconvened the meetings in Berkley and Bethe reported that
<BR>Teller's mathematics, while essentially accurate, had overlooked the
<BR>heat that would be absorbed by radiation.
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; What about the end of the world?
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; "It couldn't happen," said Teller.
<BR>&nbsp; The others were not so certain.&nbsp; Eventually they computed
the
<BR>chances for Compton:&nbsp; three in a million.&nbsp; It seemed a reasonable
risk
<BR>to go ahead."

<P>The alternative they were choosing against was the sucess of the Nazi
<BR>war machine.

<P>Ya pays yer money. an takes yer chances.

<P>Jim</HTML>

--------------9D6925C5D227E5366E24C58A--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 18:38:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19767;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:33:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:33:29 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3495D851.6C37C911 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:24:33 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Scott Little <little eden.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <3.0.1.32.19971211101929.009f7594 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19971215095008.0075b1b4@mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1AF82072B190C795E73D17C"
Resent-Message-ID: <"qD51O2.0.kq4.sXUbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13879
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------1AF82072B190C795E73D17C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Scott Little wrote:
 
 "Attached are two .gifs which should show the
 Mathcad worksheet.  I had to split it into two but
 I made them overlap so you wouldn't miss anything."

The gifs came across beautifully.
 
Jack Smith wrote:

  "I'm overwhelmed by the posts of 12-13 and 12-14-97.  A lot
  of thought has to be given to the experimental program."

Scott Little wrote:
 
 "I ignored them because they went zooming off on some
 pendulum tangent.  Was there anything important
 mentioned?"
 
 Hi Scott,

The material is very "heavy", and I think it has
important experimental implications, although,
at the moment, I'm at a loss for implementation.

As an example, I'm attaching some snips from recent
posts by Horace.  You know my equipment.  Maybe
you have some suggestions.

Jack Smith

--------------1AF82072B190C795E73D17C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x"

...

If we assume the force of gravity:

    F=G*m1*m2/d^2

is in the new paradigm actually:

    F=G1*G2*m1*m2/d^2

with G2 in our example, the aggregate "G" for the earth,
and approximately:

    G2=Gearth ...

The true mass Mt of an object must then be based on
some uniform property, like number of atoms, or
fundamental particles of differing kinds, but then
adjusted to equivalent grams to avoid the need to make
Mg1 = k1*Mt1*Fg1 and Fa1 = k1*Mt*Fa1,
where there is a unique k1 for each particle type.
The adjustment factors Fa and Fg would be unique for
each particle, and would be a weighted sum for a
gross object. ...

It may be of interest that in the Cavendish experiment,
using a torsion pendulum, there is primarily force
between the balls, and possible unwanted lateral influences,
but there is also a downward component based on Gearth.
This is due to the geometry of the torsion bar.  The torsion bar,
being three dimensional, must have a width.  As the torsion
bar turns, due to geometric considerations, it must shorten,
thus lifting the cross bar and weights.  It seems possible
to do the experiment with greatly reduced torsion, thus greater
influence of the earth, by hanging the bar from two
separate strings.  Almost the entirety of the harmonic
motion is then based on the distance of lifting of the
weight bar being in proportion to the angle of rotation.
By doing the experiment these 2 different ways, using
different elements for masses, it should be possible to
distinguish Fa from Fg, or determine that they are equal.

Regards, Horace Heffner          


--------------1AF82072B190C795E73D17C--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 19:39:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02373;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:36:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:36:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3495F5D2.2CD4A91B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:30:26 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215175945.18863F-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Hm4F1.0.za.iSVbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13880
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear John,

Did you tested your device on free falling objects to see if your modification is slow downing the fall? It is a tiny possibility but may you are playing with the inertia. If this is the case, Your satellite will be simply 2% lighter, and no thrust could 
be obtained. 

An other theory says(R.Saams) the modification is totally related to rotation of the Earth. If so satellites rotating on different altitudes ,velocities and different orbits could generate different results.

Also,

It is originally claimed that the effect was cascadable. Did you check this?

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 19:41:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02663;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:38:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:38:37 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:32:22 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: FUN!  Re: Question about communications satellites
In-Reply-To: <445A763A4E hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215222721.3680C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"h8x8t.0.Vf.xUVbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13882
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Dear Jay,

	www.gravity.org


	As for me I do not know exactly how gravity modification 
works.... but for that matter I don't "KNOW" how magnetism works either!

	I said at the beginning of the gravity work

	"don't hang your hat on what I say, because tomorow or next week 
I may know different"  This statement cause concern with some who said  
something along the lines of 'how can you xxxx if we can't hang your hat 
on it'.

	Well I often hear people who don't know how a car engine goes, 
but they have no problem with the key, the brake and the accelerator!

	SO:  Is it 'gravitons'?  Is it 'shielding'?  Is it 'xxx'?

	all I know is that, for me, the term 'gravity modification' works. 


On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jay Olson wrote:

> > 	Dear Vo.,
> > 
> > 	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
> > myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
> > satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods 
> > used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably 
> > some or a bunch I do not know about.
> > 	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
> > earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
> > maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram 
> > target mass.
> > 	I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
> > can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied for and 
> > we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still working on 
> > the design for the kits.
> > 
> > 				John Schnurer
> > 
> 
> Hi John.
> I know you called for "information", but I've got a question 
> regarding your idea.  Would this device violate momentum 
> conservation?  Suppose we have a satellite in orbit about the sun 
> with your device on board.  Your device will run off solar energy 
> from a solar cell.  Now, in some period of time you get a certain 
> amount of energy E (through the solar cells).  You will also pick up 
> a certain amount of momentum in the amount of P=E/c.  Now, if we use 
> your device to reduce the gravitational pull on the satellite, you 
> will get an additional momentum away from the sun without expenditure 
> of any mass.  Unless your device has used the potential energy stored 
> to emit some kind of particle (graviton?) in the direction of the 
> sun, it would seem that momentum conservation would be violated.  
> Say, this is FUN!  Do you have a web page describing your device?
> 
> JAY OLSON
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 19:43:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA30476;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:37:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:37:42 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Rich Murray and A&Z Fig 9
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:36:20 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971216034120297.AAA106 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"KRLCd1.0.6S7.5UVbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13881
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rich demands more and more data. Let me recapitulate the A&Z experience.

Rich wanted a good paper.

I sent him A&Z

He did not understand the calorimetry data, decided it was noisy and
invalid, and denounced it.

I explained it at length, answering his concerns. He has nothing more to
say about it.

He then arrived at Fig 9 and found it wanting, finding no correlation
between cell pressure and power.

I explicitly pointed out that Fig 9 has nothing to do with calorimetry,
which was the topic of discussion. 

In a exchange with Jed, Rich quotes the title legend wherein A&Z emphasize
the importance of this curve, and goes on to say "In response to their
claim, I examined Fig. carefully and was and am unable to agree that
evidence exists there for the claimed "very important phenomenon".

This is a truthful statement. He does not say that Fig 9 does not support
the "very important phenomenon". Very good. 

But we here have misdirection at work. The issue under discussion is the
Existence of nuclear reactions in the Pd cathode and the correlation of
excess heat with the appearance of 3He and 4He in the cathode as evidence
of such reactions. 

Rich is no longer discussing this issue, which is where we started. He has
found something else which he is unable to understand, and "therefore
unable to agree that evidence exists..." Rich is now in deep, deep water,
for Fig 9 has nothing to do with calorimetry, as I pointed out in my
earlier analysis. A&Z are now discussing the processes in the Pd-black, and
Rich is clearly out of his depth. There is much else in the A&Z paper which
Rich is not prepared to understand. 

These are not flaws in the paper, or A&Z's work, but in Rich's
understanding of physics. 

This illustrates why I -- and Jed -- have said that giving Rich more data
doesn't help. It gives him more things to misunderstand. I note that he has
ordered the McKubre report. I sincerely hope that he approaches this with
diffidence and care and seeks clarification before he makes conclusions,
for it is just possible that he may again be mistaken. 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 19:58:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01625;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:55:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:55:11 -0800
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:49:38 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215224902.3680I-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"0Xkrr3.0.IP.TkVbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13883
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 




>From left field ...


John:

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:57:43 -0800
> From: Jay Olson <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
> 
> >       Dear Vo.,
> >
> >       This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate
> > myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to
> > satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the methods
> > used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and probably
> > some or a bunch I do not know about.
> >       We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low
> > earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is
> > maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 kilogram
> > target mass.
> >       I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we
> > can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied for and
> > we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still working on
> > the design for the kits.
> >
> >                               John Schnurer
> >
> 
> Hi John.
> I know you called for "information", but I've got a question
> regarding your idea.  Would this device violate momentum
> conservation?  Suppose we have a satellite in orbit about the sun
> with your device on board.  Your device will run off solar energy
> from a solar cell.  Now, in some period of time you get a certain
> amount of energy E (through the solar cells).  You will also pick up
> a certain amount of momentum in the amount of P=E/c.  Now, if we use
> your device to reduce the gravitational pull on the satellite, you
> will get an additional momentum away from the sun without expenditure
> of any mass.  Unless your device has used the potential energy stored
> to emit some kind of particle (graviton?) in the direction of the
> sun, it would seem that momentum conservation would be violated.
> Say, this is FUN!  Do you have a web page describing your device?
> 
> JAY OLSON

Maybe, maybe not.  We know we get a change in the weight of a test
sample, but we do not know if there there is change in the inertial
mass.  Of course general relativity states that the two are not just
equivalent, but one in the same.  If there is a change in inertial mass,
then we need to start toying with those non-Einsteinian terms in the
Riemann curvature tensor, or else give up trying to reconcile what we
see with general relativity.  If there's no change, then general
relativity is in trouble, and it wouldn't advance your friend's idea
very far.  FYI, in 4-space, mass and momentum become more or less
equivalent. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 20:28:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07491;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:24:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:24:10 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971215232438.006ecf3c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:24:38 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Clarke-Hess test data
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971215155821.009feb18 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2tSNd1.0.uq1.f9Wbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13884
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 03:58 PM 12/15/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:

>Interested parties may view:

>

>http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.html

>

>which shows a 5 hour test run in which our new Clarke-Hess 2330
monitored

>electrical input power to an ultrasonic xducer located inside a
water-flow

>calorimeter.  Several different power levels and xducer loads were used
and

>the agreement between the CH2330 and our heat power measurements is
quite

>good.




 Scott's site states:


  "An ultrasonic transducer is employed for investigation of 

anomalous effects in cavitation systems. The entire transducer 

and cavitation chamber are located inside a water-flow calorimeter."


   What is <bold>anomalous</bold> about ultrasonic cavitation?  


 Was this a George-Stringham type expt? 

  or is this where ZPE(vacuum) is claimed to subsume

all cold fusion, rotary, cavitation, photoelectric 

and other energy systems as seems to be implied by the

TV show and Sci AM article Scott and Hal did last month?



 ====================================================


  Scott's site states:


 "Under all four conditions, the Pin and Pout traces lie 

right on top of each other indicating excellent agreement 

between the electrical power measured by the Clarke-Hess 2330

and the heat output power measured by our water-flow calorimetry."


   

There does not appear a correlation in under about (?~)

a half hour due to time lag.  Is there not a time lag?

What is the actual Pout as a function of Pin.


  It would be good to see that graph, ->  Pout f(Pin) 

  Then it would be possible to determine the correlation,

and precision, etc.


  =================================================


  Also, re: the flow calorimetry.  Is it vertical or horizontal?

What was the flow rate? 


  BTW, once again there is no initial baseline which

ought to be a reasonable fraction the size of the expt. 

Would that not be a good idea to include it? or why not?


   Thanks.  Good luck.


   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 20:56:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13291;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:52:59 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712160452.WAA27048 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
In-Reply-To: <445A763A4E hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> from Jay Olson at "Dec 15, 97 05:57:43 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:52:03 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6-zyS2.0.bF3.faWbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13885
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

JAY OLSON wrote:
> Would this device violate momentum conservation? ...
> Unless your device has used the potential energy stored 
> to emit some kind of particle (graviton?) in the direction of the 
> sun, it would seem that momentum conservation would be violated.  

Gravity modification is not, on the face of it, necessarily a
violation of either conservation of energy or conservation of
momentum.  

The analogy is shielding (or countering) a magnetic attractive
force. You can do it all day long if you put in the requisite
energy.  Similarly, no momentum is gained until you initiate
some action to gain velocity.  That either means some other form
of propulsion, or an actual repulsive mode, as you suggest
above.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 20:59:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12831;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:55:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:55:41 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712160455.WAA27084 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
In-Reply-To: <3495F5D2.2CD4A91B verisoft.com.tr> from Hamdi Ucar at "Dec 16, 97 06:30:26 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:55:35 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XujX4.0.O83.CdWbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13886
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

hamdi ucar wrote:
>It is a tiny possibility but may you are playing with the inertia.

This would be more surprising, since gravity shielding doesn't need
to violate conservation of energy or momentum, but inertia reduction
must violate both.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 21:27:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17279;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:21:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:21:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34960204.2AFA earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:22:28 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: members of Order of the Tortoise
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pHnJg1.0.uD4.p_Wbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13887
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 15, 1977

Dear all,
 
The Order of the Tortoise:

  http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/index.html 

We are a group of conventional scientists and engineers who wish that
Cold Fusion, Free Energy
Devices, and Alchemy were real. The plodding Tortoise---making painfully
slow progress but
undaunted and un-discouraged---symbolizes mankind's enduring quest for
these elusive goals. 

Our mascot is Harriet, "Darwin's Tortoise". She is the oldest living
animal, born in 1830. Here is her
biography 
                               Our Motto 

           You don't make progress unless you stick your neck out. 

More mottos... 


           Charter, Administration and Membership 

Charter: The primary function is to unite conventional scientists who
wish these phenomena were
real, but feel proof of current claims is lacking, and want to see the
questions addressed by rigorous
scientific investigation. 

Administrivia: We are a professional society, but with no dues, meetings
or organizational structure
of any kind. In fact, the only function performed by the Society is to
promote the idea, through its
mere existence, that its OK for professional scientists and engineers to
be interested in such things. 

Membership is open to any professional scientist or engineer now or
previously engaged in
conventional research and development, who agree with our stated
charter. Eligible scientists and
engineers who actually believe Cold Fusion, Free Energy or Alchemy are
real are welcome, but it is
understood that members are much more likely to believe the opposite, in
accord with conventional
scientific opinion. "Cranks" and "True Believers" who routinely accept
or espouse things well beyond
the limits of scientific knowledge and empirical verification, or are
hostile towards conventional
science, are not welcome , as the whole Internet is their Society. 

Tortoise Fellows However, we also understand that some serious
researchers may "advance" to
having actual experiments purported to demonstrate these phenomena.
These members will be given
a special "Tortoise Fellow" status, and are listed with pointers to
their research. 

Request Membership: email <barry math.ucla.edu> please include
indication of your current or
former professional scientist or engineering status (title, degree(s),
and organization). You will be
listed in our membership listing, unless you request otherwise. Include
a web page address for our
listing if you have one. 

Members of the honorable Order of the Tortoise (who are willing to be
listed... ;-)    : 

1.Dr. Barry Merriman , Assistant Professor, UCLA Dept. of Math, Research
Scientist, UCSD
     Fusion Energy Research Program 
   2.Dr. Paul Burchard , Research Fellow, Computer Science Dept.,
Princeton University. 
   3.Fredrick J. Sparber, (frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net)
Inventor-Scientist, Sandia
     National Labs (Retired); (patented inventions used on
pioneer-voyagers etc., listed at
     www.uspto.gov, keyword Sparber); Conceiver of our revered Tortoise
icon and motto 
   4.Horace Heffner, (hheffner corecom.net), Operation Research Analyst,
member of the ACM
     and IEEE, now retired. Holder of a US patent in the communications
field.
   5.Dr. Scott Chubb, Naval Research Laboratory, Washington,
(chubb ccf.nrl.navy.mil or
     chubb neptune.nrl.navy.mil).
   6.Rich Murray, B.S. physics and history, MIT, 1964; Boston U.
Graduate School, M.A.
     Psychology, 1967 (rmforall earthlink.net). 
   7.Scott R. Little , Experimentalist, EarthTech International; 20
years experience designing XRF
     analyzer systems; B.S. Engineering-Physics, University of Texas,
Austin. 
   8.Dr. Hal Puthoff, Research Physicist/Director, Institute for
Advanced Studies, Austin Texas.
     (Puthoff aol.com)
   9.Dr. Michael J. Schaffer, Sr. Staff Scientist, Fusion, General
Atomics, San Diego, CA, USA;
     B.S.(63),M.S.(64),PhD.(66) Electrical Eng. & Sciences, MIT;
(Schaffer gav.gat.com). 
  10.Anonymous , computer engineer, presently head of a robotics
company. 
  11.Dr. Steven E. Jones, Professor of Physics, Brigham Young
University;
     (SEJONES physics1.byu.edu). 
  12.Stephen Terry , B.S. Physics, Georgia Institute of Technology 1995;
M.S. Applied Science
     and current Phd. candidate, University of California at Davis,
1997; Physicist, Lawrence
     Livermore National Lab, 1997--Present, researching compact toroid
fueling of fusion
     reactors. (terry4 llnl.gov). 


Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 21:32:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18021;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:25:48 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712160525.XAA27341 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
In-Reply-To: <34964FE5.1E87 itl.net> from Nick Palmer at "Dec 16, 97 01:54:45 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:25:43 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SvGvY.0.LP4.R3Xbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13888
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nick Palmer wrote:
> <<> Our natural birth rate (not to mention attempted immigration rate) is
> <<> *increasing* as we get wealthier.
> 
> <<Oops.  According to the US Census, births per 1000 females
> <<trended thusly:
> 
> <<1987 71.0
> <<1988 69.7
> <<1990 67.0
> <<1992 62.9
> <<1995 61.4
> 
> As usual, no "oops". You obviously, like some of the others on this list, 
> pay little attention  to what was actually written in the message you are 
> replying to. Here in Jersey, the birth rate is increasing - pray tell of 
> what relevance are the US census figures to us?

Well, unless you assert that the US is getting poorer over the last decade,
it would seem that birth rates do not rise as the population gets 
wealthier -- as you would have had us believe based upon some smaller
alleged sampling.

> Seriously though it seems impossible to me that this ridiculous "we know 
> better than environmentalists" attitude persists.

Go figure.

> In America I suspect 
> it is because the level of propaganda and weird and twisted argument that 
> you get from your media and news channels is so all pervasive. America 
> was regarded as a pariah at the recent climate negotiations at Kyoto 
> because of the appallingly greedy and selfish position that it took.

Or perhaps a sense that the hot air wasn't coming from global warming.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:08:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23518;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:04:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:04:20 -0800
Message-ID: <34960C29.26C earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:05:45 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Murray: Miley's isotopic data
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8zHLD1.0.Ol5.ZdXbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13889
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec 15, 1997

Dear all,   

Today Jed Rothwell accused Murray:

"He probably still claims that Miley's errors are 15%, even though Miley
and I and many others have told him they are 2 to 3%. Once he makes a
claim, Murray never retracts."

>From my comments on Sept. 10, 1997 re Miley's rejoiner to the Eighth
Critique:

"Miley makes a convincing case that there is not much deposition from
layer to layer of beads, and his data is not from obvious local reaction
spots.

Looking over the tabulated data in my Critique just now, I have to agree
that the data for Ag is, on the face of it, anomalous, uncluttered by
neighboring elements,  and substantial enough to be the focus of
attempts at replication.  I still am hoping to have the complete before
and after data for the other five runs, to do the same kind of tabulated
analysis.  At least, what is the before and after data for Ag in these
runs?  Was this specific configuration, run # 8, run again?  Also, if
new sets of 10 beads were taken from the before and after beads of Run #
8, and analyzed in the same way, then that would be another way to check
the analysis-- but expensive.

It may be a very cogent suggestion that outgassing in solid electrodes
produces the noticable "volcanos" imaged by other researchers."     

I quote from my summary Eighth Miley Critique of July 24, 1997:  

"The before isotopic ratio changes, compared to official values, range
from 0 to + 7.4 %, largely confirming Miley's estimates in his post of
July 20.  The after ratios, compared to official values, range from 0 to
+ 20 to - 83 %.  This data does not suggest isotopic shifts for V and
Cu, but provides grounds for spirited debate about Cr, Fe, Zn, and Ag."

"This one I will call for convenience, the Eighth Critique.  Responding
to Miley's post of July 20, I have given up some skeptical claims, and
added more analysis of the data.

I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios
in my First Miley Critique,  [posted Dec 7, 1996, on George H. Miley,
"Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing
Electrolysis," "Infinite Energy" magazine, # 9, July-August, 1996] 
calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on
NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 2 to 4 % in his July 20 post:

[I have arranged the data by element, in order, and calculated the
ratio, after/before.  When helpful, I added natural abundance, the 
estimated SIMS count from a double-scale zerox of Fig. 3b., and possible
same-mass interferences.  Fig. 3b is labeled, "Typical low resolution
SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the
cell).] 

I have added for the less common isotopes a second line with three
abundance ratios, compared to the most common isotope: official, before,
and after, along with the percentage change from official. 

             #atoms per microsphere        ratio, after/before
             before              after

23-V50       3.54E10             70.1E10   19.8      23-Cr50?

399r         407r = + 2 %        408r = + 2 %  

23-V51       1.44E13             28.6E13   19.9 


24-Cr50      omitted, 4.4%, SIMS=~500, 23-V50?

24-Cr52      5.63E14             1070E14   190.

24-Cr53      6.27E13             1360E13   217.

8.82r        8.98r = + 2 %       7.87r = - 11 % 

24-Cr54      1.53E13              255E15   167.

35.4r        36.8r = + 4 %        42.0r = + 20 %


26-Fe54      2.82E15             17.8E15     6.31

15.2r        15.2r = 0 %         15.2r = 0 %

26-Fe56      4.29E16             27.0E16     6.29

26-Fe57      1.01E15             14.1E15    14.0

42.5r        42.5r = 0 %         19.2r = - 55 %

26-Fe58      omitted, 0.28 %, SIMS=~1000, 28-Ni58?


27-Co59      1.23E14             19.9E14    16.2   100%


29-Cu63      3.57E15              116E15    32.5

29-Cu65      1.54E15             49.7E15    32.3

2.24r        2.30r = + 2.6 %     2.33r = 4.2 % 


30-Zn64      1.42E15             16.7E15    11.8    28-Ni64?

30-Zn66      7.82E14             92.2E14    11.8

1.74r        1.82r = + 6.2 %     1.81r = + 4.1 %

30-Zn67      1.14E14             21.6E14    19.0  4.1%, SIMS=~10

11.9r        12.5r = + 7.4 %     7.73r = - 35 %

30-Zn68      5.08E14              130E14    25.6  18.8%, SIMS=~11

2.64r        2.80r = + 5.9 %      1.29r = -51 %

30-Zn70      1.64E13              124E13    75.6  0.6%, SIMS=~1,
32-Ge70?

81r          86.6r = +6.9 %       13.5r = - 83 %


47-Ag107     7.32E15              76.1E15   10.4

47-Ag109     6.68E15              61.4E15    9.2

1.07r        1.10r = +3 %         1.24r = + 17 %


Of these 7 NAA elements, the V pair is typical, with after/before ratios
astonishingly close at 19.8 and 19.9, giving absolutely no hint of
changes in isotopic abundances, but suggesting strongly a 20-fold
transfer of metal from one measured set of ten beads to another within
the cell. This is obviously the same for Cu, while there is provocative
data for Cr, Ag, and the specific isotopes: Fe57, Zn67, Zn68, and Zn70, 
considering the +- 2 to 4  % precision of NAA, given by Miley in his
July 20 post.

The most out-of-line isotope is 30-Zn70, with ratio 75.6,
has only 0.6 % natural abundance, making its measurement more
susceptible to dust contamination, and, shall we say, random glitches,
as well possible interferences from 32-Ge70. Also, the SIMS count for
30-Zn-70 in Fig. 3b is about 1.  The remarkably close match of some of
the isotope pairs for V, Fe, Cu, Zn, and Ag is surprising and
gratifying, and gives us more faith in the NAA measurements.

The before isotopic ratio changes, compared to official values, range
from 0 to + 7.4 %, largely confirming Miley's estimates in his post of
July 20.  The after ratios, compared to official values, range from 0 to
+ 20 to - 83 %.  This data does not suggest isotopic shifts for V and
Cu, but provides grounds for spirited debate about Cr, Fe, Zn, and Ag.

Table 4a in First Preprint shows that the cells contain l91 micrograms V
in the two Ti electrodes: if 1 % somehow dissolved out, then that would
roughly equal the 1.52 micrograms of V that Miley measured as added to
the beads.  At any rate, there seems to be no evidence of isotope shift
for V.  

If we had the specific before and after data for the other five runs,
then more of this simple analysis could be done.

Zn-68, with an estimated SIMS count of ~11,  was listed as enhanced
15.84 % in First Preprint."

>From post by Murray to Mike Carrell on Nov. 24, 1997:

"Hi Mike Carrell,  I've been writing my critiques seriously, and am sure
that they are largely correct, and comprise a invaluable contribution,
if the cold fusion field is ever going to make any substantial
progress.  I'm asking you to to consider seriously that my many
critiques have considerable merit, so I'm sending you this Eighth Miley
Critique of Sept. 10, which presents only a fraction of the many
problems I found in the two Miley preprints.  My simple, obvious
analysis of his prerun data shows the actual accuracy of his isotopic
measurements, close to his claimed accuracy.  Note that I did not bring
up the issues of H and D compounds in the postrun data, which surely
would invalidate any claims that actual isotopic anomalies are involved:
this was a major oversight on my part, because it was the debate on the
Cincinnati Group data that first made me aware how common hydride
interferences were, especially in postrun data on loaded metals.

I made only one major concession: that there might be an anomaly for
Ag-- but the Ag data for the other five runs are scattered over a wide
range of values, with no pattern I can easily discern, with one value
that is actually negative, indicating Ag removal!" 

As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:14:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25264;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:13:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:13:46 -0800
Message-ID: <34960E3B.437C earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:14:35 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net
Subject: Looking for CG thorium
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"s3Zvf2.0.dA6.PmXbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13890
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 15, 1997

Hello Peter,   This is an awfully simple idea, but here it is:

Use aqua regia or anodic electrolysis to dissolve the outer 100 microns
of the metal components of a post-run Cincinatti Group cell, and then
test that solution for thorium and for radioactivity.

As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:21:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26476;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:19:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:19:23 -0800
Message-ID: <34960FBA.F6 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:20:58 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Blue: dilemmas of the CF concept
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"XUnF81.0.cT6.grXbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13891
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!pushkin.conxion.com!news.he.net!daver!zorch!fusion
From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Subject: Re: "d.b."
Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org
Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway
Message-ID: <199712151552.KAA82534 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:56:25 GMT

Dieter, in discussing what should really be included in his "Cold Fusion"
bibliography, touches an issue that may well be the heart of the entire
CF controversy.  Just what is it that separates the physics of cold fusion
from physics of fusion and nuclear physics in general?

Unless you have an answer to that question that stands up well to critical
examination you may as well kiss all the claims for miraculous energy
release goodbye.  Cold fusion should be laid to rest in the cold, cold
ground.

So what, precisely, does define cold fusion?  Originally, I suppose, we could
say it was the absence of any particles energetic enough relative to the
nuclear Coulomb barrier to induce some nuclear reaction at a rate sufficiently
high to be "interesting."  We might say there are two approaches to consider:
(1)lower the Coulomb barrier (2) raise the particle energy.  I should think
that cold fusion would be restricted to type (1) approach as is exemplified
by muon-catalyzed fusion.

One fact about the claims for CF success in the present context that is
generally overlooked is the lack of any evidence that temperature is a
significant experimental parameter.  This is, of course, quite reasonable
within the context of a type (2) fusion process because the temperatures
involved in the wet chemistry attempts simply aren't in the right ball park
to be of any significance.  However, if one claims that some subtle interaction
with the crystal lattice leads to a lowering of the Coulomb barrier it is
more likely that variations in temperature in the range 100-400 K might have
some impact on the reaction rate (provided there is a reaction).

So now SL comes on the scene as possibly another way to achieve easy fusion.
However, as Dieter notes, SL does not qualify in any obvious sense as
"cold fusion."  If the significant observation in SL experimentation is an
elevated temperature within a bubble this clearly is not a domain in which
subtle crystal power plays a role.  The attempt seems to be to achieve
fusion by reaching a temperature high enough to induce hot fusion.

Once you recognize the fact that SL is a wolf in sheep's clothing when it
comes to cold fusion there is nothing to support the notion that the
nuclear physics involved differs dramatically from the well studied
processes.  The experimental verification for any claim that SL induces
fusion must surely rely on the proven techniques such as neutron detection.
No neutrons means no fusion!  It's just that simple.

It also tells us that, up to this point, that SL shows little promise as an
easy means for inducing fusion.

So perhaps we can learn from this that "cold fusion" as a concept is in big
trouble because its temperature dependence is totally incorrect.  If it
depends on a lattice the expected temperature dependence is missing, and
if it requires an elevated temperature it departs from the imagined
protections from normal nuclear constraints.

Dick Blue


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:24:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27112;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:22:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:22:32 -0800
Message-ID: <34961075.7E38 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:24:05 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu
Subject: Blue: re LENT activity
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"PxXxW3.0.Td6.duXbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13892
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.172.150.11!news1.bellglobal.com!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!zorch!fusion
From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Subject: LENT activity
Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org
Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway
Message-ID: <199712151652.LAA88962 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:59:33 GMT

Let me suggest, once again, before anyone buys into the notion
that the LENT device actually does anything to alter radioactive
decay processes, that is is really very important to first
define what activity is being observed.  Just sticking a Geiger
counter near the sample does not constitute a meaningful
measurement of the activity.

The situation with thorium is particularly complex.  In fact if
you were chosing a candidate radioisotope for the kind of
investigation undertaken by the Cincinnatti Group thorium
presents particular problems that, I would think, should be
avoided in the first groundbreaking experiments.

The problem is that the activity detected likely is not just that
of a single thorium isotope.  Rather the activity is from a
mixture of thorium with assorted daughter isotopes, and we don't
know what that mixture is!  So you subject this unknown mixture
to some chemical process which quite possibly alters the chemical
composition of the test sample and selectively deposites different
activities in different locations throughout the apparatus.

The notion that very nondiscriminating measurements of the activity
is indicative of anything significant is another one of those
absurdities that is typical of CF investigations.

Dick Blue


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:28:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24534;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:25:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:25:07 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216002436.006ccac4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:24:36 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Clarke-Hess test data
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"fbdyY.0.F_5.1xXbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13893
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:24 PM 12/15/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>>>>

<excerpt>   What is <bold>anomalous</bold> about ultrasonic cavitation?  

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

We're not sure yet.  There's the Stringham phenomena to investigate and
then there's Schwinger's hypothesis that sonoluminescence is tapping into
zero-point energy.  To be sure, there is a long-standing mystery as to
exactly why simple water cavitation is so damaging to metals (e.g. Navy
studies on ship propellers, etc.).  We have created a number of
spectacular cavitation damage specimens with this system and they are
quite intriguing to examine under the microscope.

>>>>

<excerpt>

There does not appear a correlation in under about (?~)

a half hour due to time lag.  Is there not a time lag?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Yes, there is a lag in Pout due to the sizeable heat capacity of the
apparatus in the calorimeter.  It's at the end of each "power plateau"
that they agree well.

>>>>

<excerpt>What is the actual Pout as a function of Pin.

  It would be good to see that graph, ->  Pout f(Pin) 

  Then it would be possible to determine the correlation,

and precision, etc.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

If I produce such a graph should I omit the data points in the periods
where "thermal lag" makes Pout disagree obviously with Pin?  If so,
should I average together all the points in the latter portion of each
power plateau to produce (for this particular graph) 4 data points?

>>>>

>>>>

<excerpt>Also, re: the flow calorimetry.  Is it vertical or horizontal?
What was the flow rate?  BTW, once again there is no initial 
baseline...

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

My apologies for little or no supporting information for this data.  I
was just  blasting out a quick brag on our new power analyzer.  In due
course I will generate some detailed reports on the experiments we are
performing with this system.  But in the meantime some answers: This
calorimetry is technically vertical but I always strive to have high
water velocities in relatively small passageways so that flow instability
effects are negligible.  Often the heat-exchanger is a coil of Cu tubing
as described in


http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report.html


and


http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html


where the same calorimeter was used for other experiments.


Flow rate is always ~5 cm^3/sec.  I'm always checking the baseline of
this calorimeter and it stays pretty stable.  In the subject report
(http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.html) you can see the baseline
pretty well at the end of the experiment.  From about hour 5.2 to hour
6.3 the system was running with the electrical input power to the
ultrasonic xducer turned off.  Just above the right edge of the graph you
see "n:  176" and above that you see "0.01" off to the right of the Pout
digital display.  The "176" means the last 176 readings have been
averaged to produce the column of numbers which contains the "0.01" for
Pout.  Readings are taken every 15 seconds so that's 44 minutes worth of
baseline data that's been averaged together.  An average Pout of 0.01
watts is just a lucky result, typically it's within a few tenths of a
watt of zero...more than adequate for a calorimeter that usually runs
100+ watt experiments.


Thanks for the interest, Mitchell.





Scott Little 

EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759

512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 

little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 15 22:41:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25813;
	Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216013913.006afaf4 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:39:13 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Clarke-Hess test data
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971216002436.006ccac4 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"G6KxT2.0.BJ6.b8Ybq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13894
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 




At 12:24 AM 12/16/97 -0600, Scott wrote:

>>>> 

<excerpt>At 11:24 PM 12/15/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>>>>

<excerpt>   What is <bold>anomalous</bold> about ultrasonic cavitation?  

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

We're not sure yet.  There's the Stringham phenomena to investigate and
then there's Schwinger's hypothesis that sonoluminescence is tapping into
zero-point energy.  To be sure, there is a long-standing mystery as to
exactly why simple water cavitation is so damaging to metals (e.g. Navy
studies on ship propellers, etc.).  We have created a number of
spectacular cavitation damage specimens with this system and they are
quite intriguing to examine under the microscope.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<



   Scott, 


  How could you not be sure what you did?


  Did you use D2O?  Was there Pd involved?

  Did you just use a simple acoustic applicator?


  Your writeup will be clearer if you specify.

  A short sentence or two with your graph might mention this.


 <bold> CAVITATION


</bold>  BTW, cavitation, corrosion, and mechanisms to 

correct the latter are well known, with a long literature.



 ==============================================



>>>>

<excerpt>

>>>>

<excerpt>What is the actual Pout as a function of Pin.

  It would be good to see that graph, ->  Pout f(Pin) 

  Then it would be possible to determine the correlation,

and precision, etc.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

If I produce such a graph should I omit the data points in the periods
where "thermal lag" makes Pout disagree obviously with Pin?  If so,
should I average together all the points in the latter portion of each
power plateau to produce (for this particular graph) 4 data points?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


  <bold>Pout f(Pin)

</bold>   Suggest you do it both ways.

In the second, you might omit the lag, but state what you do clearly 
and

accurately.


You might try to not average the points, but show the scatter
(precision), and

the mean (accuracy, IF semiquantitatively calibrated, etc.).


   

 ==============================================



>>>>

<excerpt>

>>>>

>>>>

<excerpt>Also, re: the flow calorimetry.  Is it vertical or horizontal?
What was the flow rate?  BTW, once again there is no initial 
baseline...

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

My apologies for little or no supporting information for this data.  I
was just  blasting out a quick brag on our new power analyzer.  In due
course I will generate some detailed reports on the experiments we are
performing with this system.  But in the meantime some answers: This
calorimetry is technically vertical but I always strive to have high
water velocities in relatively small passageways so that flow instability
effects are negligible.  Often the heat-exchanger is a coil of Cu tubing
as described in


http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report.html


and


http://www.eden.com/~little/purify/report.html


where the same calorimeter was used for other experiments.


Flow rate is always ~5 cm^3/sec.  I'm always checking the baseline of
this calorimeter and it stays pretty stable.  In the subject report
(http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.html) you can see the baseline
pretty well at the end of the experiment.  From about hour 5.2 to hour
6.3 the system was running with the electrical input power to the
ultrasonic xducer turned off.  Just above the right edge of the graph you
see "n:  176" and above that you see "0.01" off to the right of the Pout
digital display.  The "176" means the last 176 readings have been
averaged to produce the column of numbers which contains the "0.01" for
Pout.  Readings are taken every 15 seconds so that's 44 minutes worth of
baseline data that's been averaged together.  An average Pout of 0.01
watts is just a lucky result, typically it's within a few tenths of a
watt of zero...more than adequate for a calorimeter that usually runs
100+ watt experiments.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


 <bold>VERTICAL FLOW CALORIMETRY

</bold>

  So that is vertical calorimetry, at ~5 cm3 per second.


  Your graph indicates a delta-T of less than one degree?

Is that correct?   Did you measure the delta-T before the

expt?



  <bold>BASELINE:

</bold>

You did not mention why you never provide a long term initial

baseline. 


  What is "pretty stable"?   BTW at the end of the

experiment you might have more noise in your system secondary

to the heating, expt itself etc.   Two long term baselines

might provide you with the opportunity to measure it, and

understand its origin(s) better.



  Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

  JET Energy Technology



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 00:36:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18375;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:25:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:25:39 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:25:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FUN!  Re: Question about communications satellites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215222721.3680C-100000 college>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216012136.3788C-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"XlnN-3.0.1V4.2iZbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13895
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, John Schnurer wrote:
-=snip=-
  >>	As for me I do not know exactly how gravity modification 
  >>works.... but for that matter I don't "KNOW" how magnetism works either!
-=snip=-
  >>	Well I often hear people who don't know how a car engine goes, 
  >>but they have no problem with the key, the brake and the accelerator!

I've had people 'given' the "key" turn their motor over until the battery
dies and tell me "This KEY Doesn't Work"!!!

Merry Christmas to ALL
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 00:59:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13439;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:56:35 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:55:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu
Subject: Re: Blue: re LENT activity
In-Reply-To: <34961075.7E38 earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216015018.9079F-110000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-559023410-758783491-882262539=:9079"
Resent-Message-ID: <"yIhyk1.0.vH3._8abq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13896
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

---559023410-758783491-882262539=:9079
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Rich,
  Could you ask 'Dick Blue' to join the vortex-list? It *IS* getting
confussing with your CrOsS-pOsTs. (edited vs horses mouth etc.)

Thanks
Merry Christmas to all
-=se=-

---559023410-758783491-882262539=:9079
Content-Type: MESSAGE/NEWS
Content-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216015018.9079H november>
Content-Description: 

Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.172.150.11!news1.bellglobal.com!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!zorch!fusion
From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Subject: LENT activity
Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue)
Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org
Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway
Message-ID: <199712151652.LAA88962 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:59:33 GMT

Let me suggest, once again, before anyone buys into the notion
that the LENT device actually does anything to alter radioactive
decay processes, that is is really very important to first
define what activity is being observed.  Just sticking a Geiger
counter near the sample does not constitute a meaningful
measurement of the activity.

The situation with thorium is particularly complex.  In fact if
you were chosing a candidate radioisotope for the kind of
investigation undertaken by the Cincinnatti Group thorium
presents particular problems that, I would think, should be
avoided in the first groundbreaking experiments.

The problem is that the activity detected likely is not just that
of a single thorium isotope.  Rather the activity is from a
mixture of thorium with assorted daughter isotopes, and we don't
know what that mixture is!  So you subject this unknown mixture
to some chemical process which quite possibly alters the chemical
composition of the test sample and selectively deposites different
activities in different locations throughout the apparatus.

The notion that very nondiscriminating measurements of the activity
is indicative of anything significant is another one of those
absurdities that is typical of CF investigations.

Dick Blue



---559023410-758783491-882262539=:9079--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 03:06:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03669;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:03:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:03:47 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0bc0ae9ab8b [199.237.131.223]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:06:15 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"NwbVD1.0.9v.I0cbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13897
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:24 PM 12/15/97, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
[snip]
>  "I'm overwhelmed by the posts of 12-13 and 12-14-97.  A lot
>  of thought has to be given to the experimental program."
[snip]
>The material is very "heavy", and I think it has
>important experimental implications, although,
>at the moment, I'm at a loss for implementation.
[snip]


Sorry for the diversion. The discussion kind of took a life of its own once
the table of experimental results showing large values for gravitaional
variations between elements was posted.  I'll hush up now, especially since
I have a huge backlog of things to do.  It is important to know that vortex
does have a synergistic life of its own and that any particular discussion
about energy can end up being a discussion about a range of things, not
limitied to chicken diets, the value of gold in China, dung recycling, or
theories of everything.

Peronally, I think just a replication of the Cavendish Balance Experiment
is a great achievement, especially using a small version, and is a
prerequisite for experimentally examining the variety of wild thories and
results laying about.  Wild talk about theories is easy, but doing careful
experimental work is very difficult, and you are in good hands there with
Scott, who is both an excellent experimentallist and generous with his
time.

The excitement of vortex is not knowing when you wake up what bizarre and
interesting things you may be pondering before you go back to sleep.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 03:43:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09604;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:40:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:40:07 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0bc180fc244 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:42:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"9Bxv9.0.vL2.LYcbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13898
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:49 PM 12/15/97, John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>We know we get a change in the weight of a test
>sample, but we do not know if there there is change in the inertial
>mass.
[snip]

John,

Earlier, there was much discussion about the importance of the possibility
inertial changes to objects in the beam, as such an effect can greatly
multiply the practical utility of the beam.  Did you ever personally stick
a rotating mass (e.g. a sanding wheel in an electric drill) partially into
the beam to see if it is ejected?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 05:08:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18912;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:04:17 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102804b0bbf3893732 [12.64.35.72]>
In-Reply-To: <349ae298.7602329 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]>
 <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:00:54 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: RQM energy device
Resent-Message-ID: <"Cpao_3.0.Hc4.Bndbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13899
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robin -

   >  Perhaps prices will come down with mass production
   >  (and hopefully reliability go up ).

I'm still hoping its *reality* will go up!  ;)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 06:30:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10848;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:26:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:26:37 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Friction Heat Experiment
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:23:21 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0a2e$29b2d0c0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"OpaNX1.0.Pf2.S-ebq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13900
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The sliding coefficient of friction (dry) of nickel-glass is 0.56. Glass on
glass (dry) is
0.40 and with a light oil is 0.09 to 0.116.

With H2O or D2O the coefficient should fall somewhere in between.

If one was to rotate a short rod of metal or glass against
a small plate of glass or quartz covered with water there
might be some infrared to ultraviolet visible to the dark-adapted eye or
suitable optical equipment.

Let's see,Scott has a router and so does Frank Stenger.:-)

Keep it short, though. Diamond drills don't count.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 07:43:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11882;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:32:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:32:26 -0800
Message-ID: <34969F12.3440 interlaced.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:32:34 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <199712152159.PAA21211 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"W81jL2.0.Zv2.8yfbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13901
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
> 

> You don't have to find the gravitational constant to find out if some
> materials are lighter than others -- I know I'm heavier after a holiday
> meal -- didn't need to re-evaluate the gravitational constant
> to find that out. :-)
> 

Yeh, John, but which weighs more - a pound of lead or a pound of
feathers?  Figure that one out Mr. smartypants!

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 07:52:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23275;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:48:00 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:48:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712161547.HAA23253 mx2.eskimo.com>
Date: 16 Dec 1997 10:06 EST
Sender: "Gene Batten" <mdleb nortel.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Gene Batten" <mdleb nortel.ca>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"5PLvF2.0.Wh5.kAgbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13902
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


John,

It is good to see you active on the list here. I look forward to hearing
more about your progress.

Concerning the question of "change in the inertial mass", would it be
possible to arrange your apparatus so that a mass could swing, or in
some way move in and out of the "gravity beam" in a manner that  would
yield information about possible inertial modifications to the mass? 

In one of your previous posts, you implied the need for a partner, or
funding, etc. Are you ready to provide more detailed info about what you 
are looking for? I have found that needs have a way of being met once
they are clearly stated. I may know of a source, depending on what you
have in mind. 

Gene Batten
mdleb nortel.ca

> At 10:49 PM 12/15/97, John Schnurer wrote:
> [snip]
> >We know we get a change in the weight of a test
> >sample, but we do not know if there there is change in the inertial
> >mass.
> [snip]
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 07:55:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14828;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:51:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:51:57 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Friction Heat Experiment
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:48:08 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0a3a$01588000$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"SLspz2.0.bd3.REgbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13903
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

As an afterthought, just to make things interesting,one might dissolve some
Boric Acid,
Borax, or Lithium Carbonate or Hydroxide dissolved in with the Boric
Acid-Water-D2O.

If there are any Light-Leptons and/or Hydrinos
formed the Light Leptons Might effect release of the Neutrons
(Stripping?)from the Deuterium which can be absorbed by the Boron-10
releasing Helium etc.

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 08:31:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28954;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:24:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:24:19 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3496AB07.4AC1 interlaced.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:23:35 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
References: <v01530501b0bc180fc244 [199.237.131.233]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NJe5E1.0.G47.ligbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13904
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
 Did you ever personally stick
> a rotating mass (e.g. a sanding wheel in an electric drill) partially into
> the beam to see if it is ejected?
> 

This is an elegant idea, Horace!  Or, as I think has been suggested
ealier, insert one edge of a wheel-on-a-horz-shaft into the beam and
see if it rotates.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 08:42:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00842;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:37:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:37:57 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712161636.KAA03585 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
In-Reply-To: <34969F12.3440 interlaced.net> from "Francis J. Stenger" at "Dec 16, 97 10:32:34 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:36:58 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nvZBW.0.4D.Wvgbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13905
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frank Stenger wrote:
> > You don't have to find the gravitational constant to find out if some
> > materials are lighter than others -- I know I'm heavier after a holiday
> > meal -- didn't need to re-evaluate the gravitational constant
> > to find that out. :-)
> > 
> 
> Yeh, John, but which weighs more - a pound of lead or a pound of
> feathers?  Figure that one out Mr. smartypants!

An ounce of common sense. :-)


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 09:06:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03543;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:00:09 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:00:09 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712161659.KAA13750 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:59:14 (-050
Subject: Re: {OFF TOPIC}
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <v0311071eb0b9fcd1aedb [206.243.174.18]>
References: <8FF0DE74CE asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"WSv2x.0.Gt.NEhbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13906
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Ralph,

> Date:          Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:16:21 -0500
> From:          ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>

> >In response, I have to agree that HYPERSPACE is a great book.  It
> >discusses many theories that are well backed up.  However, as a successor to
> >Carl Sagan, I would tend not to agree.  He has done much less damage
> >to the profession of science than Mr. Sagan has.
> 
> he's also been appearing quite frequently on the Art Bell radio show.
> (not sure if this is good or bad... ;-)

Hmm.  Didn't a certain Dr. Mallove appear on that show, too?

 
-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 09:27:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30041;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:21:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:21:25 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:21:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712161721.JAA07406 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"6DNyh.0.JL7.JYhbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13907
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frank Stenger  wrote:

>This is an elegant idea, Horace!  Or, as I think has been suggested
>ealier, insert one edge of a wheel-on-a-horz-shaft into the beam and
>see if it rotates.

What's a wheel-on-a-horz-shaft?

Forgive me if this has been suggested before, but the above brought to mind
a very simple method to extract mechanical power from  (and a very simple
demo for) the gravity shielding.

(This assumes that it is a *shielding* effect and that there is no penalty
for entering and exiting the shielded area)

Simply put one side of a wheel, aligned to rotate vertically, into the
shielded area - the wheel should spin.  More efficient yet would be a set of
large masses on a chain or belt, aligned so that all the masses on one side
are in the column of shielding. With large enough masses it should be
possible to produce enough rotational force to power a generator that runs
the grav shield equipment...  Of course this is not as good as a solid-state
approach, but it would be fun :-)

Dan Quickert

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 09:37:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA32576;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:33:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:33:26 -0800
From: tv juno.com
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: herman antioch-college.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:31:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
Message-ID: <19971216.093158.3422.1.tv juno.com>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215222721.3680C-100000 college>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.49
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-9,13-64
Resent-Message-ID: <"OBKWO1.0.py7.ajhbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13908
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John,

It would seem that a localized gravity reduction would imply a violation
of the conservation of energy as well as momentum.  Assuming it does not
take a greater amount of energy to decrease the weight of more massive
objects placed above your device, it would seem to be possible to spin
the edge of a large wheel or cause a recirculating fluid flow in a closed
loop to generate power because of the imbalances thereby produced.  Am I
thinking correctly here ?

I think the kit would be great, but beware of the trap in which Greg
Watson found himself.   Detailed directions that a teenager could follow
to duplicate your work would be required for many others to replicate and
verify your results.

Tim
( tv juno.com )

>On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jay Olson wrote:
>
> 	Dear Vo.,
> 
> 	This is an open call for information.  I am trying to educate 
> myself and a small group about 'state-of-the-art' with regards to 
> satellite station keeping.  At present, as far as I know, the 
>methods 
> used include inertia wheels, rockets, magnetic field methods and 
>probably 
> some or a bunch I do not know about.
> 	We are getting a nice solid 2% gravity modification and in low 
> earth orbit we are looking at about 0.9 gravity to work with.  This is 
> maybe 1/2 ounce 'thrust' in an up-down orientation, given a 1 
>kilogram target mass.
>I am trying to find out what methods are used at present so we 
> can work synergistically with them.  The formal patent is applied 
> for and we see this as the first commercial application.  We are still 
>working on the design for the kits.
>> > 
>> > 				John Schnurer
>> > 
>> 
>> Hi John.
>> I know you called for "information", but I've got a question 
>> regarding your idea.  Would this device violate momentum 
>> conservation?  Suppose we have a satellite in orbit about the sun 
>> with your device on board.  Your device will run off solar energy 
>> from a solar cell.  Now, in some period of time you get a certain 
>> amount of energy E (through the solar cells).  You will also pick up 
>
>> a certain amount of momentum in the amount of P=E/c.  Now, if we use 
>
>> your device to reduce the gravitational pull on the satellite, you 
>> will get an additional momentum away from the sun without 
>expenditure 
>> of any mass.  Unless your device has used the potential energy 
>stored 
>> to emit some kind of particle (graviton?) in the direction of the 
>> sun, it would seem that momentum conservation would be violated.  
>> Say, this is FUN!  Do you have a web page describing your device?
>> 
>> JAY OLSON
>> 
>> 
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 09:56:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02794;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:51:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:51:51 -0800
Message-ID: <3496BFC0.52AC interlaced.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:52:01 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
References: <199712161721.JAA07406 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KjXRM.0.ah.s-hbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13909
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dan Quickert wrote:
> 

> What's a wheel-on-a-horz-shaft?
> 
Sorry for my foggy phrase, Dan - I think we're talking about the same
thing.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 11:58:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00434;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:51:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:51:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <349682B0.7FAA905F verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:31:28 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites
References: <199712160455.WAA27084 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"wmJdU2.0.h6.Oljbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13910
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
> 
> hamdi ucar wrote:
> >It is a tiny possibility but may you are playing with the inertia.
> 
> This would be more surprising, since gravity shielding doesn't need
> to violate conservation of energy or momentum, but inertia reduction
> must violate both.

Yes, serious difficulties when inertia modification is considered. But there it could be a connection here. According equivalence principle, weighing bodies arise from acceleration force applied to hold the body in place to prevent its fall. So, the reduc
tion of the force to hold the body in place could be either due to flattening the world line or to the decreased inertia. 

Actually inertia modification appears not possible, not only violate C of E, also disturb kinetic balances inside the atoms.

But I think it should confirm experimentally this not the case. Even, may other unnoticed novel effects could be observed when trying to disprove alternate hypothesis.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:21:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04491;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:15:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:15:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:09:37 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: wheel in gravity shield
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971216150746.12386C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"aEXrt3.0.461.t5kbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13911
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	Vo.,

	Go to www.gravity.org .... see FAQ.  Read ALL the papers ... look 
at the news and so on....  most questions answered here in recently 
updated site.  No free lunch here. You gotta use juice.


				J


					

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:22:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04555;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3496E0E0.6AE23BB7 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:13:20 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [off topic] Interesting paper on and solitons on DNA.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"aO7l-2.0.171.A6kbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13912
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

eprint: physics/9712025
Do Topological Charge Solitons Participate in DNA Activity?

Authors: Ziv Hermon, Shay Caspi, Eshel Ben-Jacob

     We present a novel electromagnetic model of DNA molecules, in which the P-bonds act as tunnel
     junctions and the H-bonds as capacitors. Excess charge in the model gives rise to two coupled
     modified sine-Gordon equations, which admit topological solitonic excitations. We study the dynamics
     of the solitons, their effect on the DNA transport properties, and comment about their role in the DNA
     functioning. We propose specific experiments in order to test our predictions. 

Available from http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9712025

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:35:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08847;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:29:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:29:13 -0800
From: "Jay Olson" <olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu>
Organization: University of Idaho
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:28:42 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: FUN!  Re: Question about communications satellites
Priority: normal
References: <445A763A4E hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
In-reply-to: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971215222721.3680C-100000 college>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54)
Message-ID: <56DFFC59BC hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"6Lmd22.0.9A2.OIkbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13913
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



> 	www.gravity.org
>
>  				John Schnurer

Thanks John.  Lots of great reading material!  One more thought, 
though.  Would not the ultimate test of whether gravity 
modification is actually taking place be to put a very sensitive 
clock in the shielded region?  How sensitive would such a clock have 
to be to register time moving faster in a 2% weaker gravity field?  
Within the realm of practicality?

JAY OLSON

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:37:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09749;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:33:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:33:34 -0800
Message-Id: <3496E51C.688DA08C verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:31:24 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Naudin site disappeared.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"xnDG.0.AO2.TMkbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13914
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Naudin and Vo,

Is anybody know the reason?

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 12:55:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08515;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:46:10 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:45:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke 80
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216133903.865A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uvcn63.0.v42.EYkbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13915
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Today 12.16.97

Author C. Clarke is 80

Thought for today: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
indistinguishable from magic." --Arthur C. Clarke (1917- ).


May he have many happy returns:)
-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 13:21:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18312;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:12:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:12:56 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0bc754dd292 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:15:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"N6XTo1.0.pT4.Lxkbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13916
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:21 AM 12/16/97, Dan Quickert wrote:
[snip]
>
>Simply put one side of a wheel, aligned to rotate vertically, into the
>shielded area - the wheel should spin.  More efficient yet would be a set of
>large masses on a chain or belt, aligned so that all the masses on one side
>are in the column of shielding. With large enough masses it should be
>possible to produce enough rotational force to power a generator that runs
>the grav shield equipment...  Of course this is not as good as a solid-state
>approach, but it would be fun :-)
>
>Dan Quickert

You could also put a large loop of water filled pipe above the device, and
use the water pressure difference to drive a turbine.

Frank Stenger suggested putting a tuning fork in the beam, a very accurate
method.

The significance of inirtial mass reduction is that it can highly magnify a
very small percent effect and make for immediate practical use.  See my
post of 2/9/97 for example:

                        TWO WHEEL LEVITATOR

                       Horace Heffner - 2/9/97

If the Podkletnof/Schnurer devices reduce momentum, inertia, i.e if a
rotating wheel placed partially in the beam tends to throw the wheel out of
the beam by a force proportional to centrepital force, then there is
possibly a means of levitation even if the beam is only vertical, and even
if the effect is only about 4% of mass.  Vertical lift is achieved by
having two wheels spin on an angle to the beam:



       \        /
        \      /
        M\    /M
          \  /
           \/
          ====

\ or /  - spinning wheel, side view (2) wheels shown

M - motor and shaft attached to spinning wheel

==== - antigravity/anti-inertia device



The significant part of the diagram is the "====", which is the Tampere
device or similar device exhibiting exhibiting inertia reduction in a beam
or corridor above itself:

That part of the premise that is a very big "if" is that inertia is
affected within the gravity reduction field, the gravity shadow of the
Tampere device.  It is a long stretch of the imagination, but it is very
easily tested because careful weighing/measuring is not required.  A very
small reduction in momentum will result in a very large force for a high
rpm wheel.  To test simply stick a running motor into the field.

The above should provide a Cadillac smooth ride, no bump and grind.
Nothing to make for oscillation, vibration, etc,  All the two wheels do is
rotate. There might be a problem if it turned a corner suddenly, but no
need to do that to get into orbit.

Suppose you have shielded at 4% about half of each of the 1 meter radius
wheels or drums which are each at an angle theta from the vertical, 0.5 m
thick runnning at 3600 rpm, or 60 rps. The mass of each wheel is primarily
between 0.5r and r, where r is the radius of the wheel.  Assume each wheel
is roughly the density of iron (7.9 g/cm^3).  The area A of a wheel is
(3/4)(pi)(r^2) = 2.4 m^2 = 2.4x10^4 cm^2. The volume of a wheel is 1.2x10^6
cm^3 so the mass is 9.5x10^7 g or about 10,000 kg.  The average rotational
velocity of the mass of a wheel is v=(3/4)(2)(pi)(r)(50)= 283 m/s.  The
outer (max) acceleration is a=4(pi^2)(r)(60s^-1)^2 = 1.4x10^5 m/s^2, or
about 1400 g's.  Every second about 10,000 kg x (60rps) = 60,000 kg/s mass
enters the non shadowed section of the wheel at 283 m/s and exits at -283
m/sec, for a delta v of 566 m/s per second.  The effective (net) mass doing
this is 0.04 x 60,000 kg/s  = 2400 kg/s.  The resultant force is F = (566
m/s)(2400 kg/s) = 1.35x10^6 N. Converting to kg force (kgf) we get F =
(1.26x10^6N)(1/9.8 kgf/N) = 13,900 kgf.  Suppose the supporting framework,
underlying Tampere cells,  and power supply etc. can be placed using 1,000
kg per wheel.  This give a total vehicle weight of 22,000 kg.  The lifing
force L = (13,900 kg)*2(cos(theta)) = (27,800)cos(theta).   To hover we
have the lifting force L equal to the craft weight of 22,000 kg, which
results in cos(theta) = (22000/27800) = .791 and the angle from vertical is
cos-1(.791) = 37.7 deg.  This is all marginal, but achieving an 8%
shielding would definitely give you a VTOL SST orbiter.  So would being
able to run the wheel at 2800 g's.

Lateral thrust as well as attitude could be controlled by insertion of
horizontally rotating wheels different depths into the beam.

The above is mainly concerned with hovering, SSTO etc. However, any
repulsion of a rotating wheel from the anit-gravity beam proportional to
the wheel rpm means maybe you can build an Isp infinty spacecraft for use
in space. That is an important test.  A better test would be to rotate a
heavy wheel horizontally through the antigravity beam and support the
entire appartus on a wheeled platform to see if the platform and all can be
made to move laterally.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 14:14:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26943;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:03:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:03:33 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:04:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712162204.OAA25274 pop1.ucdavis.edu>
X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Agp122.0.ua6.qglbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13917
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frank,

Duh, now I get it -  "wheel-on-a-horz-shaft" - you put a horz behind the
wheel, it ran into a shaft, and lost its i ;-)

I *really* like Horace's idea of the two-wheel levitator.  Gets around all
that messy mechanical trying-to-unbalance-the-momentum business like
Thornsen, etc.

Dan Quickert

>Dan Quickert wrote:
>> What's a wheel-on-a-horz-shaft?
>> 
>Sorry for my foggy phrase, Dan - I think we're talking about the same
>thing.
>
>Frank Stenger
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 14:15:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28665;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:46 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:34 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: crossposts from sci.physics.fusion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216015018.9079F-110000 november>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971216112347.23084B-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"eXWbN3.0.e_6.Volbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13918
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Rich,
>   Could you ask 'Dick Blue' to join the vortex-list? It *IS* getting
> confussing with your CrOsS-pOsTs. (edited vs horses mouth etc.)

And violations of vortex-L rules still present a problem.  They are small
enough that I would normally ignore them, but because Dr. Blue has no
chance to adapt his sci.physics.fusion messages to this forum, I think the
issue is not minor.  For example, Dr. Blue writes: 

> > The notion that very nondiscriminating measurements of the activity
> > is indicative of anything significant is another one of those
> > absurdities that is typical of CF investigations.

This is a blatant though minor example of believer/skeptic ridicule.  It's
acceptable on newsgroups, but posting it here is violation of our rules. 

Rich, please in the future DO NOT crosspost any unedited messages from
newsgroups (particularly sci.physics.fusion) to vortex-L.  

If you wish to crosspost message content, then I insist that you VERY
CAREFULLY edit them to remove all traces of insults, hostility,
"debunkery", closeminded attitude, etc.  Since the original authors of the
crossposts have no opportunity themselves to fix (or indeed to ignore!) 
the violations, you should make the assumption that they would never
violate our rules in the slightest.  Edit the messages so they are totally
squeaky-clean.

The whole reason for vortex-L's existence was to provide a alternative to
the crappy garbage commonly found on newsgroups.  If newsgroup messages
are to be posted here, they'd better be HEAVILY filtered, more so than the
usual messages exchanged here between members.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 14:39:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00015;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:29:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:29:30 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216172951.006f48c0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:29:51 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: crossposts from sci.physics.fusion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971216112347.23084B-100000 eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216015018.9079F-110000 november>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"sSSgn1.0.__7.83mbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13919
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


At 02:11 PM 12/16/97 -0800, William J. Beaty wrote:

>And violations of vortex-L rules still present a problem.  They are small
>enough that I would normally ignore them, but because Dr. Blue has no
>chance to adapt his sci.physics.fusion messages to this forum, I think the
>issue is not minor.  For example, Dr. Blue writes: 
>
>> > The notion that very nondiscriminating measurements of the activity
>> > is indicative of anything significant is another one of those
>> > absurdities that is typical of CF investigations.
>
>This is a blatant though minor example of believer/skeptic ridicule.  It's
>acceptable on newsgroups, but posting it here is violation of our rules. 
>
>Rich, please in the future DO NOT crosspost any unedited messages from
>newsgroups (particularly sci.physics.fusion) to vortex-L.  
>

  Would add that any crosspost containing a quote from elsewhere
ought be separated by quotes [" "] as is customarily done,
so that it is CLEAR who said what.  Given that some
of the material recently posted consists of allegations which
appear to be neither historically nor scientifically unsupported
it might help to ACCURATELY denote who is making the allegation(s).

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 14:58:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06142;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:52:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:52:55 -0800
Message-Id: <349702DC.16E863EE verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:38:20 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Simple hypothesis on gravity
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zlQ0W1.0.tV1.5Pmbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13920
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John and All,

			Mandatory part

Isn't it possible to explain gravity not direct consequence of (concentration of) energy or mass but the result of displacement of the mass or the energy?

	Gravitational interaction between bodies are consequence of the net movement of masses inside the bodies (atomic/ subatomic particles).

So gravity become a residual force of large gravitational effect created by movement of individual particles inside the matter, but mainly canceled due their  random movements.

This require the gravity is induced as a directional force, a vector. 




			Optional part

Let g is gravitational induction *vector* due a movement of point like mass m. at location p. At this time the relation between vectors remain undetermined. 

It should be a vector with a direction related to the movement. If the g  is decreasing with distance, a sum of gravitational induction of infinite number mass moving on random directions could not be zero.

If a bulk mass is moving respect to a frame of reference, its energy and its inertia should be increased by comparing its resting state, according relativity.

A similar result could be obtained also with my hypothesis, but the increasing gravitational force of this body  may be different from the relativity theory.

So, supplying coherent movements inside a body could generate greater gravitational forces or cancel the gravitational force of an other body on a direction.

With close examining the special relativity could give clues to build a proper mathematical model for the gravitation, I expect.

I thing this is a promising idea, please feedback to point out possible contradictions or point which agree well with the experiment.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:25:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29458;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:17:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke 80
To: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971216133903.865A-100000 november>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9712161747.A16982-0100000 firefly.prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"2JUgj2.0.-B7.zmmbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13921
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Today 12.16.97
> 
> Author C. Clarke is 80
> 
> Thought for today: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is 
> indistinguishable from magic." --Arthur C. Clarke (1917- ).
> 
> 
> May he have many happy returns:)
> -=se=-
> 

The followup quote to the above is "Any sufficiently retrograde magic is
indistinguishable from technology".    :-)

Zack

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:37:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15186;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:29:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:29:58 -0800
Message-Id: <34970E74.54988874 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:27:48 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Naudin site disappeared.
References: <3496E51C.688DA08C verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3QUjW2.0.5j3.qxmbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13922
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi Naudin and Vo,
> 
> Is anybody know the reason?
> 

Ok, It is come back. No problem.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:58:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04576;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:51:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34970D31.3B24C461 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:22:25 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Question about communications satellites (fwd)
References: <v01530501b0bc754dd292 [199.237.131.233]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"BfPue2.0.P71.HGnbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13923
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> The significance of inirtial mass reduction is that it can highly magnify a
> very small percent effect and make for immediate practical use.  See my
> post of 2/9/97 for example:
> 
>                         TWO WHEEL LEVITATOR
> 
>                        Horace Heffner - 2/9/97
> 
> If the Podkletnof/Schnurer devices reduce momentum, inertia, i.e if a
> rotating wheel placed partially in the beam tends to throw the wheel out of
> the beam by a force proportional to centrepital force, then there is
> possibly a means of levitation even if the beam is only vertical, and even
> if the effect is only about 4% of mass.  Vertical lift is achieved by
> having two wheels spin on an angle to the beam:

[snip]

Yes this is a great idea. Actually, we don't know how Podkletnov/Schnurer devices behave on moving, rotating and accelerating masses. Even, no inertia reduction is needed for amplifying the effect by external mechanism, if effect on dynamic masses differs
 from static ones.

Must investigate.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 15:59:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19566;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:55:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:55:06 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216153458.00a04dc8 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:34:58 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Clarke-Hess test data
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971216013913.006afaf4 world.std.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971216002436.006ccac4 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"utOUu1.0.Vn4.PJnbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13924
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:39 12/16/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<excerpt>  How could you not be sure what you did?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

It's whether or not cavitation is anomalous that we're not sure of.  

>>>>

<excerpt>  Did you use D2O?  Was there Pd involved?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

In our efforts to replicate Stringham's work, yes.  In the recent testing
of the Clarke-Hess 2330 the specimen was SS304 and the liquid was H2O.

>>>>

<excerpt>  Did you just use a simple acoustic applicator?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

I've not heard that name for it but it is a standard ultrasonic device
intended for tissue homogenization, plastic welding, etc.  Same thing
that Stringham used in his "Mark II" system. Ours is a Sonics & Materials
VC-501 with a 19mm dia probe.

>>>>

<excerpt>  Your writeup will be clearer if you specify.

  A short sentence or two with your graph might mention this.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

I will generate a very detailed report fairly soon. With the new power
analyzer we are now performing some additional experiments to look for
evidence of excess heat.  BTW, we are much better equipped in that
respect than Stringham.  He just measures the power drawn from the 120VAC
mains and assumes a constant fraction is delivered to the water.  We're
measuring both.  The overall efficiency is NOT constant.

>>>>

<excerpt>  BTW, cavitation, corrosion, and mechanisms to 

correct the latter are well known, with a long literature.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Yes, it has been well researched.  However, I believe it is still not
clearly understood HOW a collapsing water bubble can tear away the
toughest metal surfaces with relative ease.  Thus the possibility for
anomaly exists.

>>>>

<excerpt>  So that is vertical calorimetry, at ~5 cm3 per second.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

I usually make the water flow from top to bottom just to be perverse. 
I've tried it both ways and it doesn't change the results.

>>>>

<excerpt>  Your graph indicates a delta-T of less than one degree?

Is that correct?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

The numerical value display for "dT-H2O" (-0.006) is the the last reading
in the run.  The number to the right of that (0.001) is the average of
the last 176 readings. These are the delta-T's for zero input power. 
When the experiment is receiving input power the delta-T is relatively
large.  For example, at 165 watts, the delta-T is around 8 degrees.

>>>>

<excerpt>   Did you measure the delta-T before the

expt?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Many times.  The data is just not included in this quickie plot which was
intended only to show off the Clarke-Hess 2330.

>>>>

<excerpt>  What is "pretty stable"? 

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Around here "pretty stable" means that the fluctuations are less than 1%
of the signal you're trying to measure.

>>>>

<excerpt>  BTW at the end of the

experiment you might have more noise in your system secondary

to the heating, expt itself etc.   Two long term baselines

might provide you with the opportunity to measure it, and

understand its origin(s) better.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Agreed.  I'll do that on the real experimental runs.


Thanks for the comments & questions.  I'll work up that Po vs Pi data and
get back to you.





Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little

Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA

512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 16:07:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05241;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:56:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:56:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216153504.00a0627c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:35:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0bc0ae9ab8b [199.237.131.223]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JjPI51.0.oH1.JKnbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13925
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 02:06 12/16/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>The excitement of vortex is not knowing when you wake up what bizarre and
>interesting things you may be pondering before you go back to sleep.

Especially now that you're back, Horace!...<g>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 16:15:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23013;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:10:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:10:21 -0800
Message-ID: <349717C7.E1159137 compassnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:07:36 -0600
From: "R. R. Stiffler" <stiffler compassnet.com>
Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Naudin site disappeared.
References: <3496E51C.688DA08C verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zGrii.0.Sd5.hXnbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13926
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:

> Hi Naudin and Vo,
>
> Is anybody know the reason?
>
> hamdi ucar

 Must be the MIB's or it could be as simple as the bill collector!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 17:03:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31344;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:55:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:55:23 -0800
Message-ID: <34971546.3569 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:56:54 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, billb@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: crossposts from sci.physics.fusion
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971216112347.23084B-100000 eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"A0Aqp3.0.Zf7.uBobq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13927
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 16, 1997

Dear all,   I will certainly practice these high standards of
communication from now on, on Vortex-L and all other forums, including
any quotes from others.   You all may call me on any lapses, and I shall
attend most carefully.   I have some bad habits to get rid of:  I've
noticed that I generally regret my own use of mockery, sarcasm,
andname-calling-- disfunctional communication has no place amongst the
society of free persons.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 17:24:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16416;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:19:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:19:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34979860.123C itl.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:16:16 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
References: <3495E7CD.D89B4DA0 dcache.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Oh2x2.0.O04.6Yobq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13928
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

James J Jiamachello wrote:

<Snip section about first atom bomb test info etc>

Thanks James. They were still wrong to risk global oblivion. Whether they 
were in a "war-time" rush or not, that type of personality would still 
have tested a bomb, sooner or later, and taken that chance.

John Logajan wrote:

<unless you assert that the US is getting poorer over the last decade,
<it would seem that birth rates do not rise as the population gets
<wealthier -- as you would have had us believe based upon some smaller
<alleged sampling.

This is true in America, in America, in America (got it yet?) at the 
moment. Your original assumption was that there is a continuing inverse 
linear relationship between access to energy/development/technology and 
birth rates. This has seemed to hold for America and the rest of the 
world, so far. I already stated that it is far more likely to be directly 
linked to female literacy/opportunity. America has a high average 
standard of living but you have many who are poor or struggling and not 
every one has access to the best education or opportunity. Jersey 
has. We've been there, we've done that. Jersey has a very high 
*homogenenous* standard of living because of our status as an offshore 
low tax area - we have over 1.5 million dollars for every one of our 
90,000 residents on currency deposit alone - effectively we have no poor, 
no unemployed and our free-at-point-of-use health care service is fully 
funded. We try to restrain gross economic growth because it has caused us 
problems. While your budget deficit has grown to cosmological proportions 
- maybe the US HAS got poorer in real terms :)- we have no public debt 
and plenty of money in the bank. My point is that the USA has a very long 
way to go before you get to where we are now. You would then find that 
the security of living in such a place as Jersey, encourages people to 
have more kids because they can afford them. The linear inverse 
relationship fails. If you want to stabilise the population, then going 
hell for leather for indefinite economic growth will fail too, along with 
planetary resource limits.


Martin Sevior wrote (some time around the 20th November):

<What is the ratio of your membership in Western Nations to Third
<World Nations? 4/5 of the world would much rather be richer in a diriter
<environment. We need Economic Growth to fullfill our dream of 
<sustainable development.

and I wrote:

<Don't know about the actual ratio of members, but, in FoE
<International, there at least 55 member countries such as EL Salvador.

	I've since checked and it's 58 countries - and our membership in 
the third world far outnumbers membership in the "developed world". 
India, for example, has the largest number of members of environmental 
groups in the world. BTW, it is interesting that both the far fascist 
right and the far Marxist left (among others) are trying to misrepresent 
"green" concerns as being the rich nations dictating to the poorer 
nations that they cannot have growth/technology/development etc. This is 
all lies and jest - both these extreme political groups are so convinced 
of their ideas that they exagerate and bend the truth until it is 
unrecognisable in order to achieve their ends - 'twas ever thus.
	This is my final word on this subject, it is too off topic.

	Where's Greg then?



               Nick Palmer - Jersey FoE and consultant to the economic 
and environmental advisers to the States of Jersey government

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 17:39:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04931;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:34:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:34:48 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:44:48 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712161747_MC2-2C38-A828 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"rdS7l1.0.jC1.rmobq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13929
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Nick Palmer and some others have argued here about the effect of wealth on
population growth and family planning. This is a complex problem, terribly
difficult to generalize about, but hey, difficulties don't faze me. I'll add
my two cents. Actually, I will report the views of my grandmother and my
mother, who were experts in the subject. (My mother worked at the U.S. Census
Bureau.)

Sometimes, under some circumstances, increased prosperity and improved health
care will produce a population explosion. This was clearly the case in the
19th and early 20th century. It may be the case in Jersey today, although I
doubt they are having families of 8 to 10 children, which is what you see in
an acute population explosion crisis. Wealth can also stabilize population
growth. It depends upon many factors, like the availability of old age
pensions, the amount of open land, the cost of education, the economic value
of children as helpers on the family farm or business, and intangible factors
like culture and whether people hear news of the population explosion news,
and worry about it. People in the third world are well aware of the population
explosion. As often noted, poor people have five children because they know
that two or three will probably die. When parents can be reasonably sure that
most will survive to adulthood, they want fewer. This is not an academic
hypothesis; it is what the parents themselves say when you ask them "how many
children do you want?"

When wealth reduces population growth, the mechanism is obvious to anyone,
particularly to any woman. It's simple: Women have enough money, free time and
education to take control of their lives. They choose to have fewer children.
They can afford to go the doctor regularly and pay for contraceptives. They do
it because having 8 or 10 children is an ordeal. Poor women in third world
countries cannot afford to go to the doctor for any reason, even a
life-threatening illnesses that could be cured for a few dollars. Many
families cannot travel to a clinic, doctor or a pharmacy that sells
contraceptives. They could not afford medication. They cannot even afford
mosquito netting, which costs $5 or $10 a year. They know that without netting
they will often get malaria, which kills 1 to 3 million people annually. When
I say "many" people, I mean about a fourth of the human race. If all of those
people were given access to minimal health care and contraceptives, we can
predict what would happen based on previous cases. Some families would have
more children, but most would chose to have fewer, and the third world
population explosion would subside. It has been subsiding for the last 20
years.

Nick Palmer makes a comment I do not understand:

     The current idea is that the fall in rate of population growth that only
     appears to be related to increasing wealth/development is far more
     directly linked with female literacy and emancipation which is, of
     course, a one shot deal.

What does a "one shot deal" mean in this context? Once women are literate and
emancipated they stay that way. They (usually) choose to limit their families
to 1 to 4 kids, which stops the population explosion crisis. It only has to
work once.

Nick writes:

     Our natural birth rate (not to mention attempted immigration rate) is
     *increasing* as we get wealthier.

<Ahem> Let's have numbers, Nick. That kind of statement should be quantified.
How much has it increased? Do you see many families with 8 children? I doubt
it! A mild, local increase in a population of educated people who can easily
afford the extra children is no threat to the earth. If the entire British
population started increasing 5% per year, that would be a catastrophe.


     As female "rights" increase, the childbirth rate declines until the
     point at which sufficient wealth is around to allow people to have more
     children again.

In *some cases*, yes, but to assert that as a general rule is a gross
over-simplification. People are not protons. They do not follow precisely
definable rules. Culture, personality, and current events influence behavior.
At present, these influences tend to reduce population growth. Perhaps with
cold fusion we will do what I have predicted: we will put farms indoors where
they belong and move our industrial infrastructure to the moon. This will free
up most of the land now occupied by the human race. That, plus immigration to
the moon and Mars might trigger a gigantic population boom in 50 years. This
boom will not affect the earth measurably if it is handled correctly.
Technology can change everything. It got us into our present mess. It can take
us out again, if we have the will to use it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 18:28:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26794;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:24:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:24:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0bcdf238242 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:26:24 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"HgVZ81.0.aY6.gVpbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13930
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range. It
occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.

If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
energy of the beam in the form of heat.  The beam would thus manifest
itself as an unshieldable "heat beam".  For example, this heat beam effect
would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
balsa wood.  It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.

The main concern I have about this hypothesis is that the experimenters
could be unwittingly exposed to massive amounts of very high energy
ionizing EM radition.  I would strongly suggest, at minimum, use of a
photographic film test for ionizing radiation.

Personally, I use a polaroid camera for such a test - whenever I try
something new that might perform some miracle of xray or gamma ray
emission. (What an optimist!)  I tape a key to the underside (the film
side) and leave the camera near the source.  I then take a photo of the
experiment with the camera and look for an outline of the key.  If I should
ever have doubts about an exposure around the key, I can "expose"  the next
image with the lens capped/tapped over and look at the black photo for
traces of the key.  At least so far, I've ended up with just photos of
experiments.  It really would be much better to have a quality radiation
sensor, or even better, a sensor tied to an alarm or shut-down breaker for
the experiment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 18:47:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00196;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:44:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:44:14 -0800 (PST)
From: JNaudin509 <JNaudin509 aol.com>
Message-ID: <44f75208.34970d9c aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:24:09 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Subject: Re : Naudin site disappeared.
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"L5mCG2.0.y2.vnpbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13931
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 16/12/1997 22:40:14  ,  hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote :

<< 
 Hi Naudin and Vo,
 
 Is anybody know the reason?
 
 hamdi ucar
  >>

Hi Hamdi,

Thanks for your very helpfull feedback, yes, have encountered a very strange
fact during this night ...(??)...All my files in my compuserve web site has
been deleted (??)
Why ? I don't know, the result is that I had to upload again all my datafiles
in my web compuserve site...more than one hour of time and money lost for
nothing. 
 :-(

My web site is now fully operational, let me know if you notice some troubles
again, thanks for your help....

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:09:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03288;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:03:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:03:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216205847.006b84f4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:58:47 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0bcdf238242 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"gSP6R1.0.7p.24qbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13932
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


I believe you mean Podkletnov...not Potapov.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:15:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03785;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:06:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:06:50 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3497337B.4A8C earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:05:47 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: 72240.1256 compuserve.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, billb@eskimo.com,
        rbrtbass pahrump.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org,
        wireless rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com,
        jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        dennis wazoo.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com,
        trchubb aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, 76002.1473@compuserve.com,
        Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu,
        JNaudin509 aol.com, nick7@itl.net, shkedi@bose.com, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, terry4@llnl.gov,
        Lee_Hansen byu.edu
Subject: etiquette; Atata & Zhang criticism
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ndtKk2.0.2x.77qbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13933
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 16, 1997

Jed Rothwell,    Isn't it to your actual advantage, and certainly the
benefit of The Cause, for you also to hold yourself to Vortex-L
standards?  I intend from now on to adhere to these "squeeky-clean"
standards in all my posts to everyone, and to edit any quotes of others
to the same standard.  

I quote Bill Beaty's post re etiquette to me after this post. 

"Murray asserted that his equipment is obsolete, but
that isn't true."  Although I certainly suspect this about the Arata &
Zhang work, I don't recall ever saying so in print.  By any chance, is
this your own actual opinion?

"You are not "positively prejudiced." You are hopelessly biased. You
grasp at any straw to prove that Arata cannot measure 50 watts. You know
nothing about of calorimetry. First you said people do flow calorimetry
without a flowmeter. Now you claim they turn off the flow! Such a
vigorous imagination! Such inventiveness! What will you think up next?
Maybe you should multiply Miley's errors by five again, and claim they
are 75%."      OK, ok, so it was a little dense of me to talk about the
possibility that the flow was shut off-- but you're trying like a
courthouse lawyer to completely discredit me, with an emotional and
repetitious barrage, trying to tar me black as incompetent and
"hopelessly biased".

I want you to realize that The Cause needs competent, vigorous
criticism.  Criticism is criticism is criticism: without active interest
in and support for criticism, we end up with sectarian disputation and
and accumulation of increasingly desperate stories.

If the Arata & Zhang work turns out to be valid, then the long,
detailed, heated, serious, frustrating, tiresome, and mutually
respectful dialogue between me and Mike Carrell will have accomplished
much to establish this opinion in many minds, and to generate energy to
attempt replications.  Two serious, competent, open-minded scientists
are now separately reviewing the Arata & Zhang paper.  Surely, they
should be responded to respectfully, when they post their considered
opinions.  You can help by posting any details that you have from A&Z's
papers about their cathodes, runs, and calorimetry.

"Anything I tell Rich Murray will be ground up and spit back in a
data soup "critique" compounded of errors, distortions, ignorance and
insults. He will say 3% = 15%. He'll claim Arata uses obsolete
equipment. He'll say all flow calorimeters have the same time constant.
Why should I contribute to that? Why would anyone do favors for Murray?
As a matter of fact, I know someone who did. Mark Hugo says he lent
Murray a pen recorder because Murray said he was going to wet his feet
by doing a little calorimetry. How interesting! I don't expect Murray
will follow through, but if would be fun to see him explain to the world
how to do flow calorimetry with the flow turned off."   Jed, I am
exchanging favors with many in the community.  I'm receiving constant
encouragement in my critical efforts.  You are right about me not
getting my feet wet with calorimetry.  I haven't found anything
trustworthy to replicate, given my limited time, means, experience, and
training.  It seems to me that I am funcioning more usefully as an
objective critic, and my competence increases with every effort.  The
network is giving me plenty to work on: I can now start to work on the
Miles report in Infinite Energy and McKubre's EPRI report.

By the way, I never said that Arata & Zhang calorimetry had the same
constant as the two hours Little found in his system, at a much lower
flow rate and power input. By mentioning Little's not so little time
constant,  I was hinting that it was possible for a scientist to publish
such details.  Actually, Little didn't mention the flow calorimetry time
constant:  I made a rough estimate from one of his graphs.  The wider
point for a critic is to note that the time constant can be surprising
long for a simple system, so any measurements made within that period
would be spurious.  Arata & Zhang have not specified, as Little did in
every run, [He used a cheap computer's hard drive, not a chart
recorder.],  the detailed, continuous history of input power and
voltage, or even if the system ran with constant current or constant
voltage.  If the current, voltage, and/or input power are changing a lot
each day, then data for those days would have to be suspect.  Right?

In the court of science, the experimenter is always guilty, until he
establishes specifically that there exists no reasonable evidence
against his claims.  "You grasp at any straw to prove that Arata cannot
measure 50 watts. You know nothing about of calorimetry."      If Arata
& Zhang successfully answer the many questions raised by me and Carrell,
and, soon, various others, their extraordinary claims, if valid, will be
actively recognized as valid.  Why not promote Arata donating a "double
structure" cathode to you and Mallove for testing in your calorimeter? 
He's claimed excess heat out of every cathode.  Isn't this a sure shot? 

The critic is always guilty, too, by the same token.  My task as an
objective critic, given my limitations of intelligence, innocence,
training, experience, time, isolation, and funding, is to examine the
commonsense details of interesting reports, raising as many reasonable
questions as possible, and attending carefully to the comments and
criticisms of others.  I want you, Jed, to make more substantial,
courteous contributions to my functioning as a critic.

My critiques carry weight with many, because, while of course not free
of errors and prejudice, they are always based on details and fairly
obvious questioning.  My prejudice is simply the pragmatic strategy of
seeking out possible errors and artifacts within reports of excess heat
and transmutation.   

"The formal papers by Jones are so full of mistakes and deliberate
misinformation you do not need to look at his Internet messages to judge
his work. Of course, Scott Little does not need to read the papers. He
reads the titles and he automatically assumes that Jones is right and
Miles is wrong. Apparently he judges these papers by clairvoyance, which
is fast and convenient and easier than actually reading them."

As one, Rich Murray

Subject: crossposts from sci.physics.fusion
 Resent-Date:  Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:46 -0800
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
       Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:11:34 -0800 (PST)
       From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
    Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
         To:  vortex-l eskimo.com

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Steve Ekwall wrote:

> Rich,
>   Could you ask 'Dick Blue' to join the vortex-list? It *IS* getting
> confussing with your CrOsS-pOsTs. (edited vs horses mouth etc.)

And violations of vortex-L rules still present a problem.  They are
small enough that I would normally ignore them, but because Dr. Blue has
no chance to adapt his sci.physics.fusion messages to this forum, I
think the issue is not minor.  For example, Dr. Blue writes: 

> > The notion that very nondiscriminating measurements of the activity
> > is indicative of anything significant is another one of those
> > absurdities that is typical of CF investigations.

This is a blatant though minor example of believer/skeptic ridicule. 
It's acceptable on newsgroups, but posting it here is violation of our
rules. 

Rich, please in the future DO NOT crosspost any unedited messages from
newsgroups (particularly sci.physics.fusion) to vortex-L.  

If you wish to crosspost message content, then I insist that you VERY
CAREFULLY edit them to remove all traces of insults, hostility,
"debunkery", closeminded attitude, etc.  Since the original authors of
the crossposts have no opportunity themselves to fix (or indeed to
ignore!) the violations, you should make the assumption that they would
never violate our rules in the slightest.  Edit the messages so they are
totally squeaky-clean.

The whole reason for vortex-L's existence was to provide a alternative
to the crappy garbage commonly found on newsgroups.  If newsgroup
messages are to be posted here, they'd better be HEAVILY filtered, more
so than the usual messages exchanged here between members.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
)))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST
website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird
science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L
webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:20:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26183;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:16:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:16:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3497350C.361F earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:12:28 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Britz: CF Calorimetry
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"L6fi_3.0.yO6.uFqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13934
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz nospam.har.har>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Testing CF Calorimetry
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:43:52 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971216093334.6886C-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <199712151813.NAA136262 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <199712151813.NAA136262 pilot05.cl.msu.edu>

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Richard A Blue wrote:

> Vince,
> Could you possibly reconsider your assertion that there are
> many measurements demonstrating power outputs in excess
> of the power input?  I am suggesting that what CF measurements
> demonstrate is something else entirely.
[...]

I can sometimes see why the frothers at the mouth froth at the mouth. They
are right in saying that there are indeed lots of papers (possibly "hundreds")
asserting excess heat (note I didn't say "demonstrating"). You can doubt
their results but in many cases they don't give you enough data for you to be
able to say that they made an error. It comes down to whether you trust a
paper's conclusions, or not. If you read a paper in an orthodox boring area
and read that they measured something or other to be X.YZ units, you don't
normally jump up & down and say that can't be right, I need all the raw data
etc. You do that if they measure a well known quantity and get something
unusual; THEN you say that can't be right, even if you can't pin-point what
they have done wrong. So what you are saying, Dick, is a priori that excess
heat can't happen, so the measurements, no matter how they are done, are
wrong. Obviously, the TBs disagree, and there it stands.

What I am trying to say is that we can't tell one way or another. The TB's
need to convince us (if they care to), but we can't positively assert that
they have no case; we just don't know. Unless, Dick, you have all those papers
claiming excess heat and can point to all of their errors? Can you e.g.
explain how F&P get those large heat bursts? I know I can't, and I don't try.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:26:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27352;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:23:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:23:23 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0bcf68ca171 [199.237.131.232]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"Z3vc3.0.Ih6.fMqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13935
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:58 PM 12/16/97, Scott Little wrote:
>I believe you mean Podkletnov...not Potapov.

Right you are!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:33:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07211;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:27:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:27:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0bcf6f5ba1d [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:29:02 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"Qm9DS1.0.Vm1.UQqbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13936
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range. It
occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.

If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
energy of the beam in the form of heat.  The beam would thus manifest
itself as an unshieldable "heat beam".  For example, this heat beam effect
would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
balsa wood.  It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
the second floor above Podkletnov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
It could account for why Podkletnov's device showed more effect on
decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.

The main concern I have about this hypothesis is that the experimenters
could be unwittingly exposed to massive amounts of very high energy
ionizing EM radition.  I would strongly suggest, at minimum, use of a
photographic film test for ionizing radiation.

Personally, I use a polaroid camera for such a test - whenever I try
something new that might perform some miracle of xray or gamma ray
emission. (What an optimist!)  I tape a key to the underside (the film
side) and leave the camera near the source.  I then take a photo of the
experiment with the camera and look for an outline of the key.  If I should
ever have doubts about an exposure around the key, I can "expose"  the next
image with the lens capped/tapped over and look at the black photo for
traces of the key.  At least so far, I've ended up with just photos of
experiments.  It really would be much better to have a quality radiation
sensor, or even better, a sensor tied to an alarm or shut-down breaker for
the experiment.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:38:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29139;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:35:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:35:08 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0bcf7d6ef1a [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:37:37 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"_M6y41.0.D77.hXqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13937
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
other, an electromagnetic emission occurs in the megacycle range. It
occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.

If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
energy of the beam in the form of heat.  The beam would thus manifest
itself as an unshieldable "heat beam".  For example, this heat beam effect
would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
balsa wood.  It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
the second floor above Podkletnov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
Podkletnov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
It could account for why Podkletnov's device showed more effect on
decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.

A high energy emission might also be induced by running at or near the
transition temperature, by inducing small volumes (gaps) in phase
transition which separate the superconducting volumes in the crystal
structre.

The main concern I have about this hypothesis is that the experimenters
could be unwittingly exposed to massive amounts of very high energy
ionizing EM radition.  I would strongly suggest, at minimum, use of a
photographic film test for ionizing radiation.



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:41:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29583;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:37:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:37:48 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b0bcf99858a2 [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:40:17 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"TXvvI3.0.3E7.Aaqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13938
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>I believe you mean Podkletnov...not Potapov.

Sorry for the sloppy work.  I'm between chaueffering the kids and cooking
supper, so doing stuff at my ususal frenzied (sloppy) pace.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:55:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00065;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:52:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:52:57 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216225208.006aafb4 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:52:08 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Podkletnov effect and correction for density issues
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b0bcf99858a2 [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Va3Gf1.0.w.Noqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13940
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Vorts:

  The following URL

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/dpb.html

discusses an interesting issue which had not noticed mentioned
in this matter previously. 

  The figures are at the site.


  Mitchell Swartz



 ======================================================
   Alternative explanation of "gravitational screening" experiments
 
   Michael de Podesta, Martyn Bull
 Physics Department, Birkbeck College, Malet Street, London, WC1E 7HX, UK
 

Abstract

   We show that the phenomena tentatively ascribed by Podkletnov and
Nieminen [Physica C 203 (1992) p. 441] to gravitational screening may be
easily understood in terms of a bouyancy correction to the authors'
weighing procedure.

Podkletnov and Nieminen [1] report that they have observed phenomena
consistent with gravitational screening by a bulk superconductor.  Their
experiments
consist of weighing a sample of SiO2 above a liquid helium cryostat
containing samples of YBCO superconductor.  They report apparent weight
reductions in sample
weight from that observed at room temperature varying between 0.05% with no
AC current in the superconductor to around 0.5% with AC currents flowing in
the
superconductor.  Our assumptions concerning their apparatus are illustrated
in Fig. 1 of their paper, reproduced here. 

However, the authors have made no correction for the bouyancy of their SiO2
samples in the air in which they are weighed.  A simple calculation shows
that 
the downward force which is counteracted by the weighing apparatus is given
 by 

F = Rsample * Vg - Rgas * Vg     (1) 

Assuming a density of 2100 kg m-3 for the SiO2 and that the atmosphere
within the cryostat is air, we have calculated the ratio of the density of
air within 
the cryostat to the density of the SiO2 sample.  By assuming that the
density of air is similar to that of dry nitrogen [2], we predict an
apparent weight loss 
of a similar magnitude to that observed (Fig. 2). 

What this amounts to is an explanation of the phenomenon observed in terms
of the *temperature* of the gas around the sample.  In the steady state (no 
rotating fields) the sample is reported to show weight reduction of 0.05%,
which indicates a sample temperature of the order of 150K.  When AC fields
are in place,
convection within the cryostat may reduce this temperature significantly,
thus increasing the density of the gas.  The convection would not need to
exert a force on the
sample directly but would merely lower the temperature of the air
surrounding the sample.  The convection could be driven by slight heating
of the cryostat walls. 
This suggestion is directly falsifiable by measurement of the time
variation of the temperature in the region of the sample.  Note that the
calculations reported in Fig. 2
are based on the density of dry nitrogen. 

While the matter of a bouyancy correction in a weighing experiment in not
of itself particularly important, the interpretation of the results that the 
authors have suggested is of great significance.  We thus feel that it is
important to ascertain that there are no alternative explanations for these 
observations before accepting the possibility of gravitational shielding. 
  

Figures


                                      Fig. 1.  Schematic of the
experimental apparatus described by the authors.


  Fig. 2. Prediction of the percentage reduction in apparent sample weight
of an SiO2 sample compared with its apparent weight at 290K.  The data
assumes that the sample is weighed in
                                 dry nitrogen gas at atmospheric pressure,
but the results are likely to be similar for dry air.

References

[1] E. Podkletnov and R. Nieminen, Physica C 203 (1992) 441. 
[2] R.T. Jacobsen and R.B. Stewart, J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data. 2 (1973) 802. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 19:57:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA32707;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:52:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:52:25 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971216225137.00696954 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:51:37 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Clarke-Hess test data
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971216153458.00a04dc8 mail.eden.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971216013913.006afaf4 world.std.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19971216002436.006ccac4 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"NFWYA2.0.w-7.tnqbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13939
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:34 PM 12/16/97 -0600, Scott wrote:


>>>>

<excerpt><excerpt>  Did you use D2O?  Was there Pd involved?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

In our efforts to replicate Stringham's work, yes.  

In the recent testing of the Clarke-Hess 2330 the specimen was SS304 and
the liquid was H2O.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<



  ON THE TEST SETUP


  That clarifies.  SS304 in H2O.

  

  Do not think that is the George-Stringham system,

any more than what you purported is the Mills system

(do not think he used fibrex as methinks you did in your

expt), or the older claim the US 5 cent piece ["nickels" 

which are actually mainly composed of copper] are serious

materials to use for nickel-light water system investigations 

as used by serious cf investigators in the United States 

and elsewhere.




 ON EARTHTECH's CLAIM OF PURPORTED ANOMALOUS ENERGY

FOR SIMPLE CAVITATION


  Where has there ever been a serious basis for anomalous energy

in cavitation.  We have studied cavitation from the 60s using phased

arrays, and even for medical use in neurosurgery.   Unlike cold 

fusion -- where there is COPIOUS evidence of anomalous energy  -- am
aware

of none for cavitation.  


  Scott, do you know of any?  


 =============================================================


>>>>

<excerpt>

>>>>

<excerpt>  Did you just use a simple acoustic applicator?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

I've not heard that name for it but it is a standard ultrasonic device
intended for tissue homogenization, plastic welding, etc.  Same thing
that Stringham used in his "Mark II" system. Ours is a Sonics & Materials
VC-501 with a 19mm dia probe.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

<excerpt>

 Acoustic just means relating to vibration, or sound, or ultrasound.

Ultrasound means above the human hearing high frequency limit.

</excerpt>

 =============================================================


<excerpt><excerpt>BTW, cavitation, corrosion, and mechanisms to 

correct the latter are well known, with a long literature.

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

Yes, it has been well researched.  However, I believe it is still not
clearly understood HOW a collapsing water bubble can tear away the
toughest metal surfaces with relative ease.  Thus the possibility for
anomaly exists.

>>>>

</excerpt>


  Suggest you more closely examine conventional surface and bond
energies, 

which may explain much of the other extremely small energies you appear

to be exploring with ZPE(vacuum), and which you seem to attribute to 

your purported ZPE(vacuum)-cavitation.


  Good luck.


  Mitchell Swartz <<mica world.std.com>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 20:24:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14409;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:12:09 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: READ TO LEARN ..Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0bcdf238242 [199.237.131.249]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971216230607.3397B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"ic8xr1.0.1X3.LArbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13941
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo and Horace,

	Before I even try to respond to this I will ask that 

	a] you read about superconductors ... do the math for zero 
resistance ... and read about both Type 1 and Type 2.
	b] try the papers at www.gravity.org
	c] if you don't know the field [ha!] it is VERY hard to have 
meaningful dialog.  I taught myself the field for years... and then did 
hands on work.

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
> other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range. It
> occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
> from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
> enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
> It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
> lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
> instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
> from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.
> 
> If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
> the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
> radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
> energy of the beam in the form of heat.  The beam would thus manifest
> itself as an unshieldable "heat beam".

	My YBCO is no rotating.

  For example, this heat beam effect
> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
> balsa wood. 


	My stick is bamboo and does not rotate.  A piece of 1/4 glass and 
grounded screening are interposed.

 It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
> the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
> It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
> 
	There is no change below the rig.


> The main concern I have about this hypothesis is that the experimenters
> could be unwittingly exposed to massive amounts of very high energy
> ionizing EM radition.  I would strongly suggest, at minimum, use of a
> photographic film test for ionizing radiation.
> 

	We film and no fogging.  We run GM counters... no reaction.  
Radio wors fine, scope works fine.


> Personally, I use a polaroid camera for such a test - whenever I try
> something new that might perform some miracle of xray or gamma ray
> emission. (What an optimist!)  I tape a key to the underside (the film
> side) and leave the camera near the source.  I then take a photo of the
> experiment with the camera and look for an outline of the key.  If I should
> ever have doubts about an exposure around the key, I can "expose"  the next
> image with the lens capped/tapped over and look at the black photo for
> traces of the key.  At least so far, I've ended up with just photos of
> experiments.  It really would be much better to have a quality radiation
> sensor, or even better, a sensor tied to an alarm or shut-down breaker for
> the experiment.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          



	PLEASE READ ABOUT THE MATERIALS
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 20:26:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14661;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:21:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:21:24 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:15:08 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0bcf6f5ba1d [199.237.131.224]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971216231250.3397C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"q8hNO2.0.xa3.1Drbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13942
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo and Horace,
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
> other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range.

	Say what?

 It
> occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
> from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
> enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
> It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
> lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
> instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
> from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.
> 

> If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
> the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
> radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
> energy of the beam in the form of heat.


	How?  Read about shielding.


  The beam would thus manifest
> itself as an unshieldable "heat beam".  For example, this heat beam effect
> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
> balsa wood.  It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
> the second floor above Podkletnov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
> It could account for why Podkletnov's device showed more effect on
> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
> 
> The main concern I have about this hypothesis is that the experimenters
> could be unwittingly exposed to massive amounts of very high energy
> ionizing EM radition.  I would strongly suggest, at minimum, use of a
> photographic film test for ionizing radiation.
> 
> Personally, I use a polaroid camera for such a test - whenever I try
> something new that might perform some miracle of xray or gamma ray
> emission. (What an optimist!)  I tape a key to the underside (the film
> side) and leave the camera near the source.  I then take a photo of the
> experiment with the camera and look for an outline of the key.  If I should
> ever have doubts about an exposure around the key, I can "expose"  the next
> image with the lens capped/tapped over and look at the black photo for
> traces of the key.  At least so far, I've ended up with just photos of
> experiments.  It really would be much better to have a quality radiation
> sensor, or even better, a sensor tied to an alarm or shut-down breaker for
> the experiment.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 


	Finally:  In Rounds' work he is near liq N temperatures.  In the 
latest work the whole rig is submerged in liq N. 77K....


> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 20:33:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06634;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:31:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:31:12 -0800
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:25:46 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Podkletnov effect and correction for density issues
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971216225208.006aafb4 world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971216231725.3397H-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"c2K-62.0.ad1.FMrbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13943
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear vo.,

	a] cryostat sealed
	b] with the description below why do we have the effect

		1] through a floor
		2] in complete submersed set up
		3] though glass plate
		4] at same magnitude, withing one part in 1,000 from 
close up to 3 meters

	Read the experiemental desriptions.  Read Rounds' paper at 
www.graviyy.org 

	See notes: 


On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 
> Vorts:
> 
>   The following URL
> 
> http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/dpb.html
> 
> discusses an interesting issue which had not noticed mentioned
> in this matter previously. 
> 
>   The figures are at the site.
> 
> 
>   Mitchell Swartz
> 
> 
> 
>  ======================================================
>    Alternative explanation of "gravitational screening" experiments
>  
>    Michael de Podesta, Martyn Bull
>  Physics Department, Birkbeck College, Malet Street, London, WC1E 7HX, UK
>  
> 
> Abstract
> 
>    We show that the phenomena tentatively ascribed by Podkletnov and
> Nieminen [Physica C 203 (1992) p. 441] to gravitational screening may be
> easily understood in terms of a bouyancy correction to the authors'
> weighing procedure.
> 
> Podkletnov and Nieminen [1] report that they have observed phenomena
> consistent with gravitational screening by a bulk superconductor.  Their
> experiments
> consist of weighing a sample of SiO2 above a liquid helium cryostat
> containing samples of YBCO superconductor.  They report apparent weight
> reductions in sample
> weight from that observed at room temperature varying between 0.05% with no
> AC current in the superconductor to around 0.5% with AC currents flowing in
> the
> superconductor.  Our assumptions concerning their apparatus are illustrated
> in Fig. 1 of their paper, reproduced here. 
> 
> However, the authors have made no correction for the bouyancy of their SiO2
> samples in the air in which they are weighed.  A simple calculation shows
> that 
> the downward force which is counteracted by the weighing apparatus is given
>  by 
> 
> F = Rsample * Vg - Rgas * Vg     (1) 
> 
> Assuming a density of 2100 kg m-3 for the SiO2 and that the atmosphere
> within the cryostat is air, we have calculated the ratio of the density of
> air within 
> the cryostat to the density of the SiO2 sample.  By assuming that the
> density of air is similar to that of dry nitrogen [2], we predict an
> apparent weight loss 
> of a similar magnitude to that observed (Fig. 2). 
> 

	Cryostat is sealed.


	How hard do you have to blow on 500 gram mass to change 2%?

	


> What this amounts to is an explanation of the phenomenon observed in terms
> of the *temperature* of the gas around the sample.  In the steady state (no 
> rotating fields) the sample is reported to show weight reduction of 0.05%,
> which indicates a sample temperature of the order of 150K.  When AC fields
> are in place,

	Sample is at room temp.


> convection within the cryostat may reduce this temperature significantly,
> thus increasing the density of the gas.  The convection would not need to
> exert a force on the
> sample directly but would merely lower the temperature of the air
> surrounding the sample.  The convection could be driven by slight heating
> of the cryostat walls. 


	Blow on 500 gram mass.  Now make it do the same thing at 3 meters 
as at close up ...


> This suggestion is directly falsifiable by measurement of the time
> variation of the temperature in the region of the sample.  Note that the
> calculations reported in Fig. 2
> are based on the density of dry nitrogen. 
> 

	Sample is hanging in glass closed tube.

	Now how hard do you have to blow on it to change it 2%.


> While the matter of a bouyancy correction in a weighing experiment in not
> of itself particularly important, the interpretation of the results that the 
> authors have suggested is of great significance.  We thus feel that it is
> important to ascertain that there are no alternative explanations for these 
> observations before accepting the possibility of gravitational shielding. 
>   
> 
> Figures
> 
> 
>                                       Fig. 1.  Schematic of the
> experimental apparatus described by the authors.
> 
> 
>   Fig. 2. Prediction of the percentage reduction in apparent sample weight
> of an SiO2 sample compared with its apparent weight at 290K.  The data
> assumes that the sample is weighed in
>                                  dry nitrogen gas at atmospheric pressure,
> but the results are likely to be similar for dry air.
> 

	A]  these folks did not read the papers carefully
	b]  read ALL of Modanese and Podkletnov


	I read and corresponded for about a year before I got good 
effects.  Then much more work, reading and communication before 
reproducibility. 

> References
> 
> [1] E. Podkletnov and R. Nieminen, Physica C 203 (1992) 441. 
> [2] R.T. Jacobsen and R.B. Stewart, J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data. 2 (1973) 802. 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 20:35:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06689;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:31:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:31:23 -0800
Message-ID: <34975827.635A skypoint.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:42:15 -0600
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
References: <3495E7CD.D89B4DA0 dcache.net> <34979860.123C@itl.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-T1mR2.0.Le1.PMrbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13944
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Nick Palmer wrote:
> JL: <unless you assert that the US is getting poorer over the last decade,
> <it would seem that birth rates do not rise as the population gets
> <wealthier -- as you would have had us believe based upon some smaller
> <alleged sampling.
> 
> This is true in America, in America, in America (got it yet?) at the
> moment. Your original assumption was that there is a continuing inverse
> linear relationship between access to energy/development/technology and
> birth rates. This has seemed to hold for America and the rest of the
> world, so far.

So far?  You realize the pitfalls of extrapolating from a small data
set to a larger one, especially where the statistical trends of the
smaller
set are opposite the trends of the larger data set.

Anyhow, I went and searched the web on the topic "fertility rate" and
here
is just a sample of what I found -- absolutely no one was predicting
increased fertility rates for any developed country ...

---------------
OFFICE OF POPULATION CENSUSES AND SURVEYS
UPDATES ISSUE NO 5  MAY 1995
                                                Issued 30 May 1995
Provisional key statistics for births in 1994 in England and Wales
show
- The total number of live births was 665 thousand, 9 thousand
(1 per cent) fewer than in 1993. 
- This is the fourth consecutive year in which the number of births
has fallen. 
- The total period fertility rate (the average number of children 
that would be born per woman if current age-specific fertility rates 
persisted throughout her childbearing lifespan) was 1.75, compared 
with 1.76 in 1993.  In 1964 it was 2.93. 
- Between 1984 and 1994 the fertility rates of women in their 
twenties fell but those of women under 20 and women over 30 rose.
- For the third year running ther fertility rate of women in their 
early thirties in 1994 was greater than that for women in their early
twenties. 
- There was no change in the proportion of births occuring outside
marriage (32 percent).  This is the first year since 1973 without a
rise. 
---------------
Although it takes 2.1 children per woman simply to
maintain a stable population over time, fertility rates
in Europe are now at an incredibly low 1.45 children
per woman -- a decline of 21 percent just in the last
decade.

Japan's rate is 1.5 and the Italian rate is 1.2 -- said to
be the lowest rate in the history of the world.

The U. S. rate has declined in each of the last six
years -- to an estimated 1.98. 

In the last 30 years, the aggregate rate in the less
developed countries has plunged from 6.0 to 3.1 children
per woman -- with the most dramatic drop occurring
since 1990.
---------------
Table 2.  Declines in Total Fertility Rates:  Selected Years     
  +---------------+-------+------------+--------------------+
  |               |       |            |   Annual average   |
  |               |       |  Fertility |  fertility decline |
  | Country       | Year  |    level   |     (Percent)      |
  +---------------+-------+------------+--------------------+
  | Hong Kong     | 1961  |    5,170   |         4.0        |
  |               | 1971  |    3,423   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Singapore     | 1960  |    5,078   |         6.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    3,088   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Taiwan        | 1960  |    5,750   |         3.6        |
  |               | 1970  |    4,000   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | South Korea   | 1960  |    6,184   |         4.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    3,937   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | West Malaysia | 1960  |    5,955   |         1.6        |
  |               | 1970  |    5,051   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Sri Lanka     | 1960  |    5,496   |         2.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    4,414   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Barbados      | 1960  |    4,675   |         5.3        |
  |               | 1970  |    2,705   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Chile         | 1960  |    5,146   |         3.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    3,653   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Costa Rica    | 1960  |    7,355   |         3.9        |
  |               | 1970  |    4,950   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Trinadad &    | 1960  |    5,550   |                    |
  | Tobago        | 1970  |    3,387   |         4.8        |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Mauritius     | 1960  |    5,897   |         5.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    3,387   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Egypt         | 1960  |    6,381   |         2.2        |
  |               | 1970  |    5,095   |                    |
  |               |       |            |                    |
  | Fiji          | 1960  |    5,503   |         5.4        |
  |               | 1970  |    3,841   |                    |
  +---------------+-------+------------+--------------------+
Source of basic data: ISPC, U.S. Bureau of the Census
-------------------
World Pop. Growing More Slowly

                         Press  Release
                                                 13 November 1996

            WORLD POPULATION GROWING MORE SLOWLY BUT
           COULD STILL REACH  9.4 BILLION  BY  2050

                      Population Division
           Department for Economic and Social Information
                         and Policy Analysis

     NEW YORK, 13 November.  (Department for Economic and Social
Information and Policy Analysis).   At mid-1996, world population
stood at 5.77 billion persons.  Between 1990 and 1995, the world
population grew at 1.48 per cent per annum, with an average of 81
million persons added each year. This is much below the 1.72 per cent
per annum at which population had been growing between 1975 and 1990,
and much below the 87 million person added each year between 1985 and
1990, which stands now as the peak period in the history of world
population growth.

     These figures are from the recently released 1996 Revision of
the official United Nations population estimates and projections,
prepared by the Population Division of the Department for Economic
and Social Information and Policy Analysis.

     Currently, 4.59 billion persons-- 80 per cent of the world
population-- live in the less developed regions, and 1.18 billion
persons live in the more developed regions. The average annual growth
rate is about 1.8 per cent in the less developed regions and 0.4 per
cent in the more developed regions.
------------------
UN experts puzzled by dangerously low fertility 

by Robert L. Sassone 

   As you read this, more people are probably dying than are being born 
in Europe. Alarmed by the population decline in Europe and the coping
population decline in many other areas, the UN Population Division
called
a meeting November 4-6 of the world's leading demographers to try to
define
the problem and find a solution. 

   The demographers agreed that fertility is below replacement level
today
in nearly half the world. They were alarmed by projections that in less
than
20 years, two thirds of the world population will have a fertility rate
below replacement level. One expert pointed out that if present trends
continue, Germany will in 200 years, a short time historically, have a
population only three percent of today's population. 

   But other countries have problems far worse than Germany. Italy has
the world's lowest fertility rate, 1.2 babies per woman. The Italian
expert,
Professor Antonio Golini of the University of Rome sadly stated that the
Italian people are not even thinking of the long term effect of today's
low fertility rates. 

   UN meetings are usually full of controversy and disagreement. Not
this
one. The experts agreed that too low fertility would cause severe
problems.
They agreed that fertility was already too low in many areas. They
agreed
with the UN data that projects even lower fertility in the near future. 
Nobody criticized the UN projections of more deaths in the world than
births and a declining world populationearly next century. 
-------------- 


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 21:59:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20369;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:49:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:49:25 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0bd172ff8f2 [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:51:57 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Podkletnov effect and correction for density issues
Resent-Message-ID: <"EfVsX2.0.B-4.aVsbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13945
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:52 PM 12/16/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>Vorts:
>
>  The following URL
>
>http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/dpb.html
>
>discusses an interesting issue which had not noticed mentioned
>in this matter previously.
>
>  The figures are at the site.
>
>
>  Mitchell Swartz
[snip]

Thanks for the reference!

>The convection would not need to
>exert a force on the
>sample directly but would merely lower the temperature of the air
>surrounding the sample.  The convection could be driven by slight heating
>of the cryostat walls.
>This suggestion is directly falsifiable by measurement of the time
>variation of the temperature in the region of the sample.


Interesting - two hypotheses for sources of error easily fixed by measuring
temperature in the vicinity of the lightened object.  One says the
temperature there is lowered, the other says it is raised.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 22:06:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22597;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:05:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:05:02 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217000522.006b9740 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:05:22 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Pout vs Pin
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"TeDwJ.0.xW5.Dksbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13946
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have completed a short study of Pout vs Pin for the recently posted data
on our new Clarke-Hess 2330.  See it at:

http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/popi.html


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 23:12:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA31201;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:09:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:09:19 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530505b0bd23d2f11e [199.237.131.245]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:11:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: READ TO LEARN ..Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"yX0fb3.0.Rd7.Ugtbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13947
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:12 PM 12/16/97, John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>        My YBCO is no rotating.


I know, but Podkletnov's was.


>
>  For example, this heat beam effect
>> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the heat
>> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
>> balsa wood.
>
>
>        My stick is bamboo and does not rotate.  A piece of 1/4 glass and
>grounded screening are interposed.


I know about the glass and screen.  I think those could be both heated and
breached by sufficiently short wavelength.   Also, if I recall correctly,
these were simply laid on top of a three legged ring stand.  The sides were
not covered.  Lots of prospect for air currents around the sides.

Sorry about the balsa wood, that was someone else's experiment. My memory
isn't so good these days.  The rotation thing is my mistake also, as that
was Don Evans experiment:

Begin quote from antigravity:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 4:00 PM 2/9/97, Don Evans wrote:
[snip]
> hello anti gravers
>
> i just spent about eight hours of running test today and am frustrated with
>the results.  i only achieved a slight movement up and down on these runs.
>i am using about a 12" x 3/4 " wooden dowel suspended over the
>superconductor vertically  by a cotton thread to the balance beam these are
>quite heavy and make a 1/4 " dowel bend a little.   the effect that i kept
>getting is that the dowel started moving in a circular motion and seemed to
>circle the edge of the htsc.
>>any ideas to explain this motion.  the top of the dowel seemed to stay
>centered but the bottom seemed to circle the edge of the htsc.  i stacked as
>many as 4 htsc disks and this seemed to intensify the motion with the
>addition of each disk.   any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
[snip]
- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -
End Evans quote.


>
> It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
>> the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
>> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
>> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
>> It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
>> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
>>
>        There is no change below the rig.


I've seen reports from others saying they saw effects underneath.  Don't
recall where offhand.


[snip]
>
>        We film and no fogging.  We run GM counters... no reaction.
>Radio wors fine, scope works fine.
[snip]



OK, well, that does it then.  The main concern is covered.  There is no
risk to the exerimenters.  You have already checked this out.



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 16 23:14:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA31235;
	Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:09:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:09:26 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530506b0bd264a8595 [199.237.131.245]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:11:55 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"fWspB1.0.sd7.Zgtbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13948
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:15 PM 12/16/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Vo and Horace,
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to each
>> other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range.
>
>        Say what?



Yes.  It's called the AC Josephson effect.  A voltage of 10^-6 V can cause
an EM  radiation of 500 MHz across a very thin (Josephson) junction. I
assume a higher voltage will permit much larger gaps.  The required
conditions are two superconductors and a gap that can be tunneled in large
numbers.  I think the AC Josephson effect may account for some CF
mysteries, provided it can be demonstrated that parts of loaded Pd under
the right conditions are superconducting.  Among those mysteries is how
Shultz was burned under his ring at a distance of 1.4 meters the cell.
(See Cold Fusion in a "Ying Cell" and Probability Enhancement by Boson
Stimulation, Ying and Shultz, IE Vol.1 No.1, March-April, 1995.  If I
recall correctly, your EM stimulation of the SC is *very* energetic.



>
> It
>> occurs to me that possibly even more energetic radiation might be emitted
>> from cracks in the surface of some kinds of superconductors with a large
>> enough current flux to generate a potential across some crack boundaries.
>> It is also possible that stess on the crystal bonds of the superconductor
>> lattice, or even crystal defects or boundaries, might cause a radiating
>> instability as well.  Such a radiation  effect would be increased by stress
>> from centrifugal force of rotation, or by the stress of vibration.
>>
>
>> If the frequency generated is high enough, the metal EM shields, especially
>> the foil or screen type, might be sufficiently transparent to allow the
>> radiated beam to both penetrate the shields and to leave behind some of the
>> energy of the beam in the form of heat.
>
>
>        How?  Read about shielding.



X-rays can go right through.  It's just a matter of the right wavelength of
EM radiation.  The radiation does not have to be ionizing to account for
many observed effets, only semi-transparent to your sheilding, etc.  My
main concern was about safety, however.



Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 01:49:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11903;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:41:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:41:52 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34979D99.96F25D1B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:33 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Cc: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Gravity modification article
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4tQXR3.0.uv2.Uvvbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13949
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear John,

You may look to http://cspar.uah.edu/www/research/gravity.htmlx#GMOD.

There is 2 nice photo of SC disk and of Ning LI and members of the UAH/MSFC research team. 

Also an other article at netlynews at http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/0,1039,1636,00.html

comes form updated page of Pete Skeggs site.

Note I am preparing and comprehensible revision of my gravity hypothesis. Will post soon.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 02:24:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17270;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:18:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 02:18:36 -0800
Message-ID: <349742F8.F90 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:11:52 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, dennis@wazoo.com,
        little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        sejones physics1.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov,
        jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, sinonb@post.queensu.ca,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        design73 aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        ceti msn.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp,
        wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npimsu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, z@ccyber.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu,
        tchubb aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu,
        JNaudin509 aol.com, shkedi@bose.com, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        ceti_gcollins msn.com, ceti@msn.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil
Subject: Clarke-Hess sono and Sparky cells
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3S7Yr2.0.mD4.xRwbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13950
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 16, 1997

Hi Scott and Hal,  A great pleasure to see the precision of your two
calorimeters on your web site:[http://www.eden.com/~little] .  I am so
tickled to see the Pout line (blue) inexorably merging with the Pin line
(violet).  Interesting that the thermal time constant for the sono cell
[http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.htm] was a bit less than .5
hour, but was about 2. hour for the Sparky cell
[http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report.html], both at a low 5
cc/min cooling water flow rate.

It's very interesting to me that your calorimeters aren't showing the
artifacts that, as a pragmatic skeptic, I am assuming are occuring in
many other experiments that claim excess heat.  Have you experienced
artifacts that generated apparent excess heat?  Did you tell Dennis
Cravens about your Sparky cell?  The photos certainly look a lot like
the "sparky-arcy" demo he showed at the CETI booth at the American
Nuclear Society convention in Albuquerque in November.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 04:05:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21357;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:02:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:02:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3497BDA0.655FE8F2 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:55:12 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, 100322.312@compuserve.com,
        AOKalden compuserve.com
Subject: Need help for building a new mathematical model of gravity
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mAQrT.0.dD5.Hzxbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13951
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi All,

Example with one dimensional model:

A rubber string is subjected to multitude microscopic forces along its length which compress and extend it longitudinally. Number of forces are large and applied with random polarities (orientation) and also may have a distribution rule of their strength 
(may have a defined statistical pattern, and may be quantatized). It also possible a single force are not applied from a single point but by a distribution pattern. (If you push a surface i.e. paper sheet with your finger, the pushing force is distributed
 along the contacting area, not applied from a single point.) The difference make sense as the the material is assumed elastic rather than solid.

Questions:

1) How is mathematically presented the deformation of the rubber?
At least the model for the case of one force applied at one point.

2) If the rubber are not fixed from ends, or having infinite length, how is affected macroscopically? Is its length could vary? (never/always/depending on a distribution pattern unspecified above)



The model could be extended to 2D (rubber membrane), 3D (sponge), and 4D by including the time, allowing the forces varies in time (i.e. pulses or with harmonic oscillations) and the force react on rubber with a finite velocity.

Actually, solution on each number of dimensions could be different, as on 1D may the applied force is propagate without attenuation, on 2D attenuate with the radius and on 3D, by the square of the radius.

I am not sure on this issue as I have not a mathematical model yet. 

This the way that I am try to figure out how the gravity is generated. The source of the force in this case is energy flux or displacement of energy/mass as particles on atomic scale which are in motion on relativistic or non relativistic speeds and other
 energy concentrations as EM waves which carry energy with speed c.

Of course rubber is the space-time metric and its deformation is the gravity.

May it is possible also build a Newtonian model of gravity without introducing space-time metric, but I could not visualize a model for presenting gravitational force of a bulk mass as its statistical sum of their discrete directional gravitational force 
vectors (of subatomic particles). May this could not even lead to a mathematical presentation.

Help is really needed. :-)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 04:07:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29615;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:03:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:03:29 -0800
Message-Id: <3497A259.B2B92374 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:58:49 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Schnurer's stuff on German TV
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"lg03c.0.aE7.G-xbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13952
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi all,

This is from new updated Pete Skeggs "Superconductors and Gravity Shielding", What's New? page, about recent German TV program:

"... Surprises include a close-up view of Schnurer's coil assembly, shots of Schnurer's "artificial gemstone" and "heat resistant material, better than asbestos."  Not sure what's up with those...  Ning Li was entertaining -- she really seems to believe i
n what she is doing, and hints that she is getting good results.  I regret not having visited her when I was down in Huntsville."

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/grav-new.html

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 05:18:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03928;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:15:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:15:06 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:15:31 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Pout vs Pin
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3J5h93.0.Iz.O1zbq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13953
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  Scott:

  Your chart states that it only shows the "selected" data.
Was that selected after a certain time of equilibrium, or
for other reasons?


   Aslo, for example you wrote:
"Also, all the points in the 5th region have
Pin exactly equal to zero and thus are more-or-less 
hidden in the Y axis line."

  Might try to increase the size of the data points, e.g.
triangles etc., so that they are not hidden, and the
precision can be seen.  Same for the data points at
~50 and 170 Pin.

   Good luck on finding your ZPE(vacuum).

      Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 05:44:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00294;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 05:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3497F255.125C keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:40:05 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Dr. Paul Brown
References: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zDqN-2.0.R4.uPzbq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13954
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

With regard to the unconfirmed report of the death of Dr. Paul Brown.  He 
is apparently alive and well.  I can't even trust that yet because I've 
not spoken to him direct.  

The Ron Dandy jerk letter has been responded to and the file on Dr. Brown 
has been updated with the new information.

I apologize for not at least posting the email with a caveat asking for 
confirmation before stating as fact.

When Tom Brown was mistakenly reported to have died under mysterious 
circumstances, I called and he said it was not so.

When Stefan Marinov was reported in an email to have died, I asked for 
confirmation, receiving several European emails with ever more detail.

When Bruce DePalma died, I asked for confirmation and received several 
emails to that effect.

Now, with this report on Dr. Brown, I trusted in the details posted in 
the email, MAJOR ERROR....an email PURPORTING to be from Dr. Brown (can't 
be sure anymore, too many jerks) is included in the updated file at

    http://www.keelynet.com/energy/pbrown.htm

Sorry, a lesson for me and I hope for all of us.  Check it out as much as 
you can.  

As I said to one person, I'd rather report it as an error and find out 
Dr. Brown is truly still living, than have to stick with it as truth.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 07:37:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14229;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:31:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:31:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "Mike McDonald" <McDonalM asms1X.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Organization: AR School for Math & Science
To: Vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:25:51 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: ANOTHER one of my theories,
Priority: normal
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a)
Message-ID: <D26DCC55D8 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us>
Resent-Message-ID: <"hbe0F2.0.FU3.F1_bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13955
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

As many of you now know, I am a person who loves to come up with new 
theories.  However, I have limited sources for checking that my 
theories have not already been proposed.  I have another one to 
bounce off all of you, so here goes:

If you have an oscillating fan in your office or home, or wherever 
you are, turn it on, and take a look.  The Moire pattern that it 
creates should be VERY familiar to you.  

If you look carefully, does it not resemble a magnetic field, almost 
exactly???  So it can be preposed from observation:  Could magnetics 
field be either a) an interferance pattern from particles or waves or 
b) an interferance pattern from specific fields?  Also, you will note 
that the pattern changes relative to the viewer's position.  We could 
take this small detail and expound on it greatly, using any number of 
sub-hypotheses, such as tri-supra dimensions, or relativity, or 
moving charges, etc.

Like I said before, I like to use you people as a bouncing board for 
ideas.  I know there are the usual requirements for such an idea to 
be tested, and certain models that I must do that will indeed take 
time, as my many others will as well.  But it is still worth it to me 
for you to send any comments you have.

Thanks,

M. P. McDonald



Micheal P. McDonald
Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences
Rm. 1323  100 Whittington Avenue
Hot Springs, AR  71901
McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 07:46:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15378;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:42:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:42:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020901b0bd9eb100c2 [128.183.200.195]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:36:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: TT Brown stuff on Discovery
Resent-Message-ID: <"pV3y51.0.Cm3.nB_bq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13957
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

  The Discovery channel last night had a program that covered alternative
propulsion systems.  I was surprised to see that the Air Force has an
antigravity research project with an investigator doing T. Townsend Brown
antigravity experiments.  The person seemed to think that TT Brown's stuff
actually works.  There were several videos showing levitation devices
working, but they were suspended from a lever that had a counter balance.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 07:45:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29662;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:40:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:40:21 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <eef68ed9.34971517 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:41:40 EST
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr, vortex-l@eskimo.com, herman@antioch-college.edu
Subject: Re:  Simple hypothesis on gravity
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"XPT2G.0.OF7.a9_bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13956
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/16/97 11:11:47 PM, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:

<<Gravitational interaction between bodies are consequence of the net movement
of masses inside the bodies (atomic/ subatomic particles).

So gravity become a residual force of large gravitational effect created by
movement of individual particles inside the matter, but mainly canceled due
their  random movements.>>

The ZPE model of gravity proposes just this solution, with the gravitational
mass simply being the kinetic energy of ZPE-driven random motion of the
constituent quarks, the grav interaction being a sort of long-range van der
Waals force associated with this random motion, etc.  See H. Puthoff, "Gravity
as a zero-point-fluctuation force," Phys Rev A, vol 39, p. 2333, 1989; vol.
47, p. 3454, 1993.

Hal Puthoff 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 08:18:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01184;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:05:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:05:47 -0800
Message-ID: <3497F7F1.31AD3BA2 ro.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:04:01 -0600
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
Organization: NASA Volunteer
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <v01530506b0bd264a8595 [199.237.131.245]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"YAucG1.0.JI.OX_bq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13958
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to
> each
>  other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range.
>
>
> Yes.  It's called the AC Josephson effect.  A voltage of 10^-6 V can
> cause
> an EM  radiation of 500 MHz across a very thin (Josephson) junction. I
>
> assume a higher voltage will permit much larger gaps.  .

yes Horace, however, the experiment uses AC fields (3-4Mhz)

>   My
> main concern was about safety, however.

Because you are one of the good guys! :^)

--
Have a Good Day,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 08:44:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10807;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:39:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:39:45 -0800
Message-ID: <3497F27A.201F earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:40:42 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, ceti@msn.com, ceti_gcollins@msn.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        dennis wazoo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, little@eden.com,
        puthoff aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        droege fnal.gov, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
Subject: First CETI radioactivity critique
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"g5qpj.0.Xe2.F10cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13959
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 17, 1997

I reviewed the CETI patent,#5,672,259, published in Infinite Energy
#15-16, July-Nov., 1997, pages 13-17:

1.9X10E-3 M UO3 and .9X10E-3 M ThO2 on 2 cc beads, 3,000 cpm, .5 M
Li2SO4 electrolyte in very pure D2O, so at .02 A, R is 100-200 Ohm/cm2
in the packed cell, initial .05 A loading for 2 hours, always 10 ml/min
electrolyte flow rate, total volume of electrolyte not given, initial
300 cpm for beads packed into cell, 150 cpm when electrolyte fills cell.

By 80 minutes, 80 cpm, .10 A, 7.5 V, 10 ml/min, 2.6 degrees C delta-T,
.75 W input, 1.82 W output, 243 % ratio.

Their numbers seem rather schematic:
for instance cpm is 100, 80, 60, 40 ,20.

By 540 minutes, 20 cpm.  I bet the radioactive compounds are
hiding as a thin layer of gunk all over the inside of the tubing and the
reservoir.
    
When the beads are extracted and dried, they give 350 cpm.

Little's high power flow calorimeter, at 5 cc/min cooling water flow
rate, has thermal time constants of .5 to 2. hours in different
experiments with different large power inputs.

It is a great pleasure to see the precision of Little's high power
calorimeter on his web site:[http://www.eden.com/~little] .  I am so
tickled to see the Pout line (blue) inexorably merging with the Pin line
(violet).  Interesting that the thermal time constant for the sono cell
[http://www.eden.com/~little/sono/chtest3.htm] was a bit less than .5
hour [up to 170 watts Pin], but was about 2. hour for the Sparky cell
[15-25 watts Pin]
[http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report.html], both at a low 5
cc/min cooling water flow rate.

Little's dual method calorimeter [http://www.eden.com/~little/dual.htm],
has a flow rate, manually measured, of 23.2 +/-0.4 ml/min, +- 1.7%.  At
power levels of .2 to .8 watt, in his tests of Pd/Ni/Pd coated ersatz
beads, the thermal time constant seems to be 2. hours, from reading
Figure D.

It's very interesting to me that Little's calorimeters aren't showing
the artifacts that, as a pragmatic skeptic, I  assume are occuring in
many other experiments that claim excess heat.  Have they experienced
artifacts that generate apparent excess heat? 

The CETI patent lists that Pin changed from 0 to .20 to .15 to .28 to .9
to .75 to .70 to 1.40 to 1.20 watts in nine hours.  It is not clear
whether there were more Pin variations.  The Pin may have been fairly
constant at 1.40 to 1.20 watts during the final 4:25 hours, and the
final Pin was 1.20 watts with Pout 3.15 watts, a ratio of 263%.

The question is:  Could variations in the input power have generated a
calorimeter artifact of this size?  Could Little attempt to do this
deliberately with his dual method calorimeter?

Jed Rothwell posted on Nov. 24, 1997:

"Patterson could not have measured anything at these low flow rates with
his earlier configuration. He must have insulated the cell and the
outlet tube and put the thermocouple close to the outlet. Why he would
publish such marginal, questionable data is beyond me. I have heard that
people do this sort of thing to get a patent without alerting the
competition to the importance of the invention. You publish your least
impressive data. Patterson himself once mentioned that technique."

With reference to the recent debate about whether many CF experiments
used vacuum Dewars, I just noticed that in my notes about the CETI cell
on exhibit at the November ANS meeting in Albuquerque, was in a Dewar. 
It was never turned on, and I don't recall if it was an excess energy
cell or a transmutation cell.  The CETI patent does not mention
insulation.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:01:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16444;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:57:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:57:55 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971217080234.007a7db0 kfalls.net>
X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:02:34 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: D Evans <me2 kfalls.net>
Subject: Re: READ TO LEARN ..Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
In-Reply-To: <v01530505b0bd23d2f11e [199.237.131.245]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"dhEfv.0.q04.II0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13961
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Horace,

  the superconductors I used did not rotate either (they where stacked in a
pill bottle with a magnet between each superconductor ) and everything was
imerseded in L2.also this aperatus was sheiled by a 3/4 " thick particle
board( in other word i built an incloser all external forces where ruled
the top box held the balance beam and ratget  the lower box held the sc and
coil and L2  i did video tape this.  the wooden dowel was suspended from
the balance beam by a cotton thread the balance beam was a 1/4 " dowel 4
foot long
the 1' wooden dowel was supended by the thread from the balance beam and i
was not able to measure a reduction because on these trys the target dowel
which was suspended  had a motion induced in it (that of circling the outer
diamater of the superconductor)  the end closest to the super conducter
swung around the outside of the superconductorwhile the end that was
closest to the balance beam did not move very much and stayed above (in the
exclushun zone)..



l_______________l
l  ____._____   l this section had the balance beam and was completly enclosed
l  l          l l it was made out of 3/4 " particle board as was the bottom
for
l               l     a shield
l_______________l
l_______ll___[]_l  this section had the sc and coilther was a 3/4 " board
above it


hope this helps you understand     good work JOhn keep up the experiments 

Don Evans



At 10:11 PM 12/16/97 -0900, you wrote:
>At 11:12 PM 12/16/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>[snip]
>>        My YBCO is no rotating.
>
>
>I know, but Podkletnov's was.
>
>
>>
>>  For example, this heat beam effect
>>> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the
heat
>>> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
>>> balsa wood.
>>
>>
>>        My stick is bamboo and does not rotate.  A piece of 1/4 glass and
>>grounded screening are interposed.
>
>
>I know about the glass and screen.  I think those could be both heated and
>breached by sufficiently short wavelength.   Also, if I recall correctly,
>these were simply laid on top of a three legged ring stand.  The sides were
>not covered.  Lots of prospect for air currents around the sides.
>
>Sorry about the balsa wood, that was someone else's experiment. My memory
>isn't so good these days.  The rotation thing is my mistake also, as that
>was Don Evans experiment:
>
>Begin quote from antigravity:
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>At 4:00 PM 2/9/97, Don Evans wrote:
>[snip]
>> hello anti gravers
>>
>> i just spent about eight hours of running test today and am frustrated with
>>the results.  i only achieved a slight movement up and down on these runs.
>>i am using about a 12" x 3/4 " wooden dowel suspended over the
>>superconductor vertically  by a cotton thread to the balance beam these are
>>quite heavy and make a 1/4 " dowel bend a little.   the effect that i kept
>>getting is that the dowel started moving in a circular motion and seemed to
>>circle the edge of the htsc.
>>>any ideas to explain this motion.  the top of the dowel seemed to stay
>>centered but the bottom seemed to circle the edge of the htsc.  i stacked as
>>many as 4 htsc disks and this seemed to intensify the motion with the
>>addition of each disk.   any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
>[snip]
>- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -
>End Evans quote.
>
>
>>
>> It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
>>> the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
>>> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
>>> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
>>> It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
>>> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
>>>
>>        There is no change below the rig.
>
>
>I've seen reports from others saying they saw effects underneath.  Don't
>recall where offhand.
>
>
>[snip]
>>
>>        We film and no fogging.  We run GM counters... no reaction.
>>Radio wors fine, scope works fine.
>[snip]
>
>
>
>OK, well, that does it then.  The main concern is covered.  There is no
>risk to the exerimenters.  You have already checked this out.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:02:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15677;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:55:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:55:50 -0800
Message-Id: <349802CE.2844FEB8 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:22 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, 100322.312@compuserve.com,
        AOKalden compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Need help for building a new mathematical model of gravity
References: <3497BDA0.655FE8F2 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"V_t732.0.rq3.KG0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13960
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

I realized that forces deforming the rubber are not well described before. 

A single force is compressing the part on its front and stretch the the part at behind:   
	=--=--=--=--=F>========
("F>" is the force and "=-=" is unmodified, "==" is compressed, "=--" is stretched rubber)

An other unspecified thing is how the elaticity of the rubber is defined. I think a linear response could be sufficent for this model:

	dL/dF = k    (k become elasticity constant)

I am wondering a simulation of the 3D model could give non vanishing deformations when number of forces are increasing. 

Actually things will become nonlinear if the space-time is subjected to deformation, instead of the rubber. Even single or two force problem will be difficult to solve as the metric deform itself. This is the why solving GR problems is so hard I think.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:08:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28496;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:00:26 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971217120026_1540774699 mrin52>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: McKubre's Final Report
Resent-Message-ID: <"0NqND1.0.2z6.cL0cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13962
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec. 15, 1997, Rich Murray wrote that he was getting a copy of McKubre's
final EPRI-SRI report.

How?  Rich, did you persuade the LANL library to buy a copy, or persuade EPRI
to send you one free, or did you actually shell out two hundred bucks for a
copy?  (I've been wondering how to get a copy myself, but two hundred bucks
is a bit steep for those of us not on a corporate expense account.)

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:07:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17333;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:01:21 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:00:43 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971217120043_-1169965653 mrin39.mx>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  A&Z, overview
Resent-Message-ID: <"PvIeL.0.jE4.VL0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13963
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec. 15, 1997, Mike Carrell wrote the following:


I think it fair to say that with the A&Z paper, the following is proven

beyond reasonable doubt



1) Substantial excess energy is produce by heavily deuterated Pd

2) The process is a LENR, with "nuclear ash" in the form of 4He and 3He is

produced

3) The reactions do not produce gamma and neutron radiation as expected

from plasma fusion

4) New theoretical work is needed to understand the phenomenon

It seems to me that only 1) and 3) have been proven and that even 1) should
be modified to read "Substantial excess energy is produced by deuterated Pd
running in a lithium hydroxide electrolyte."  The lithium  is probably a
crucial part of the setup.

As for 2), what we have is a species of mass 4 and another species of mass 3.
 Neither Rich Murray nor Mike Carrell has claimed to be expert in mass
spectroscopy.  Both have called for an expert in mass spectroscopy to examine
the A&Z paper.  The discussion of this vital aspect of the paper hasn't been
nearly as thorough as the discussion of excess heat.

As someone who thinks that Mills is right about the existence of 1/n states
of hydrogen, I'd be inclined to interpret the species of mass 4 as the
dideuterino molecule and the species of mass 3 as tritium.  Mike, how do you
feel about that possibility?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:13:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00131;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:08:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:08:11 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:57:04 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712171159_MC2-2C50-B494 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"en_uL3.0.s1.sR0cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13964
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Rich Murray, of all people, has the effrontery to tell me I should practice
etiquette:

     Jed Rothwell,    Isn't it to your actual advantage, and certainly the
     benefit of The Cause, for you also to hold yourself to Vortex-L
     standards?

I have always scrupulously observed the standards on Vortex. They are not new.
They were established in the 16th century by the first modern scientists,
especially Francis Bacon, who invented the idea of cumulative, cooperative
research spanning generations. You misunderstand these standards. First you
thought that science is done by acrimony and unfounded accusations. Now you
seem to have now swung 180 degrees the opposite direction. You think it is
done by 1960s brand, lovey-dovey, I'm Okay - You're Okay,
who-cares-about-facts-and-rigor style thinking. Academic etiquette does not
demand we mollycoddle thoughtless errors and insults comparing distinguished
scientists to "pigeons" or "blind Beethoven" or what-have-you.

The standards of science are seen in a well-managed laboratory or a properly
chaired academic conference. People demand rigor. They demand that the
speaker acknowledge his mistakes and retract if he finds an error in his
analysis. If the speaker departs from the textbooks and substitutes his
own radical new laws of physics, the audience insists that he justify his
ideas. You take a well established field, calorimetry, and you turn it
upside-down and inside out. You make up physically impossible techniques like
running a flow calorimetry experiment and recording data with the flow turned
off.

If we found ourselves in the most formal & polite academic physics conference,
I would not retract or reword a single thing that I have written here. I have
violated no standards. Academia is not friendly, any more than engineering or
programming are. We must have rigor! Open mindedness should not be confused
with uncritical acceptance of any damn thing that crossed someone's mind. I
reject most cold fusion claims and all claims for magic magnetic motors
because I demand rigorous thinking, experimental evidence, and independent,
high-sigma replication. I reject Swartz's sideways hypothesis because he has
not performed an experiment to demonstrate a ~1 deg C artifact at 60 ml per
minute flow (which is what he claimed McKubre sees.) I hold the cold fusion
scientists to conservative, stiff standards. Why should I let you off? You and
Richard Blue and the other self-styled, know-nothing skeptics are running
roughshod over the textbooks. You are wild-eyed radicals! I am the defender of
conservative physics. As Martin Fleischmann put it: "It's been said that we
have gone off the wall with our ideas, but that's absurd.  Actually, we are
extremely conventional scientists.  I always say we are so conventional it is
painful."


     OK, ok, so it was a little dense of me to talk about the possibility
     that the flow was shut off --

A little dense?!? Good grief! If I made a mistake like that people would post
a hundred messages condemning me. Mike Carrell has pointed out many other
mistakes as bad as that one! You are not flooded with responses because people
stopped reading your posts long ago.


      . . . but you're trying like a courthouse lawyer to completely
     discredit me, with an emotional and repetitious barrage, trying to tar
     me black as incompetent and "hopelessly biased".

I ask only that you retract mistakes instead of repeating them ad nauseam. I
ask that you think twice before you post the next batch of howlers. I ask that
you stop posting lies -- yes, irresponsible lies! -- like your claim that
Arata uses obsolete equipment. Your problem is that if you retract your
mistakes there will be nothing left of your critiques. You will have to tear
out every paragraph, like Groucho and Chico negotiating the contract in "Night
at the Opera." Your critiques will begin and end: "As one - Rich Murray"
whatever that means. As one what? - one wonders.


     My critiques carry weight with many, because, while of course not free
     of errors and prejudice, they are always based on details and fairly
     obvious questioning.  My prejudice is simply the pragmatic strategy of
     seeking out possible errors and artifacts within reports of excess heat
     and transmutation.

Don't flatter yourself. Your critiques carry no weight and they have no
scientific merit. You have contributed nothing but confusion, misunderstanding
and acrimony. You have not "carefully attended" to comments! You ignore them.
Even Mike Carrell is fed up with your behavior. He is tired of correcting you
in detail only to see you go off on the same tangent again. Your questions are
not reasonable. Every doubt you have raised has been technically incorrect.
Until you read a textbook and perform experiments yourself you will be
hopelessly confused. I predict you will remain grossly biased against cold
fusion no matter what, but you might, at least, stop posting absurd errors
that any experienced person can spot instantly. I predict that you and the
other "skeptics" will continue to reject all data no matter how significant
until cold fusion is commercialized. I expect you will then go around bragging
that you contributed to the early research back in 1997.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:27:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22659;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:21:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:21:54 -0800
Message-ID: <3498263E.2900 keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:21:34 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Paul Brown
References: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com> <3497F255.125C@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kCexa3.0.zX5.ne0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13965
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

woops!

> When Tom Brown was mistakenly reported to have died under mysterious
> circumstances, I called and he said it was not so.

I wrote Tom Brown, should have been Tom Bearden, staying up too 
late...............sorry.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:29:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23356;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:27:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:27:01 -0800
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:21:41 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Dr. Paul Brown
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712171225_MC2-2C50-8D16 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"-aLEe3.0.gi5.aj0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13966
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex; >INTERNET:jdecker keelynet.com

Jerry Decker makes what must be an excruciating and embarrassing admission. He
has my sympathy. It turns out the report of Paul Brown's death was a hoax.
This sort of thing happens from time to time. Perhaps it is more common on
Internet than in older media. I cannot understand what would prompt a person
to perpetrate this kind of hoax. Friends and relatives who believe it are
distressed. Imagine thinking that your friend has died in the prime of life
and left a wife and two children! Thinking about that for ten minutes is
agony; living with it for a week is hell. I went through that when Chris
Tinsley died.

Jerry writes: "Sorry, a lesson for me and I hope for all of us.  Check it out
as much as you can." Yes indeed. For news like that, I strongly urge you to
call the family directly if you are a close friend, or wait until you speak
with someone who has spoken with the family. Before telling the general
public, it is a good idea to inform the close friends of the deceased by phone
or by private e-mail.  When Chris died, I informed his close friends by
telephone and private e-mail. I held off on a general announcement for a few
days because I did not want his relatives to stumble over an impersonal
announcement. Newspapers and the police will not release the name of an
accident victim until next of kin are informed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:42:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26996;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:39:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:39:38 -0800
Message-ID: <34982A61.5EBE keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:39:13 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Paul Brown
References: <199712171225_MC2-2C50-8D16 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"xau0E.0.kb6.Pv0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13967
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Jed!

Thanks for the kind words.  Yes, I am embarrassed by the episode and 
called Dr. Brown to speak with him directly.  I don't trust the email 
that I received from a person claiming to be Brown, so would rather hear 
voice.  

It is so easy to post emails with bogus names and false addresses...the 
Rondandy address was a false one and the address of Dr. Brown listed in 
the INE website does not match the address from the email sent to me 
claiming to be Dr. Brown.

It is peculiar why Brown was targeted in this fashion.  The only 
correlation that I have with Brown is a fellow who claims Brown was 
illegally given this fellows research and was working on it for his own 
gain.

I treat such email claims as just alternative energy weirdness which 
deserves no serious consideration.

This will not happen again.  Trust no ONE, get it verified.  Reminds me 
of a friend who always says, 'scopes lie', so too do some people on the 
Internet.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 09:54:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28266;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:46:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:46:35 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217124658.006a6b78 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:46:58 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
In-Reply-To: <199712171159_MC2-2C50-B494 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"0a-Je1.0.Rv6.v_0cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13968
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


  At 11:57 AM 12/17/97 -0500, Jed wrote:

> I reject Swartz's sideways hypothesis because he has
>not performed an experiment to demonstrate a ~1 deg C artifact at 60 ml per
>minute flow (which is what he claimed McKubre sees.) 


 As usual, Jed's precision (reproducibility) appears to be
greater than his accuracy.  

Mr. Rothwell NEVER answered the previous questions which demonstrated
him to make repeated false statements about the impact of Bernard
instability in vertical flow calorimeters.
[Swartz, M., 1996, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow
 Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996);
 Swartz, M., 1996, "Improved Calculations involving Energy Release
 Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy,
  3, 219-221 (1996)]

 The most important is (and the rest will not be
repeated since they were posed to Jed Rothwell more than
three times, and always ignored):

   Why does the observed excess heat change from
vertical to horizontal flow calorimetry (or static)
for the SAME SYSTEM? 

  One corrolary of Mr. Rothwell's re-emergent,
and unsupported claim, is that he has minimal standards 
on this as he has hidden again, ignored the scientific matters,
the specific questions, only to wait and re-emerge 
with the same silly pejorative statement.  

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 10:04:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30301;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:58:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:58:47 -0800
From: Mwhite333 <Mwhite333 aol.com>
Message-ID: <be46b125.349811c4 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:54:10 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: JNaudin509 aol.com
Subject: RQM Research
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"L1PMN1.0.NP7.LB1cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13969
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jean-Louis,

That makes 3 companies/communes in Switzerland that are actively promoting
free energy devices, one is Methernita and I can/t remember the other one.

The RQM is far too expensive to buy myself and I would be interested to see
how your experimenting proceeds.
I would like to work as part of your virtual team that you mentioned.

If you can get a small scale model of the RQM working over unity then this
will give more credit to Greg Watsons SMOT and RMOG, thats if we ever see him
again.

I have tried like all the others to reproduce the SMOT but lost 2mm on the
ramp height to get it to roll away.

I did a lot of work on the FDD1 floppy drive magnet project and ended up with
a motor that could run on 2ma at 12 volts, not bad for a home made motor.


Speak to you soon.

Martin White

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 10:09:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31754;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:04:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:04:31 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0bdc03cb431 [199.237.131.247]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:06:49 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: READ TO LEARN ..Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"9dOrW1.0.3m7.kG1cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13970
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello Don,

Thanks for responding.  Well, this shows how carefully one must choose
words!  My mistake was using the word "rotate" instead of "circling" or
"orbiting" in reference to your dowel.  However, I thought quoting your
post would clear that up, but I guess not.  I never meant to imply that
your's or John's magnets rotated, only Podkletnov's.  I do still feel I had
a very good understanding of your experiment, just did not do well in the
explaining I guess.  I still think your results are a great example
supporting the hypothesis that the beam both penetrates material and heats
it - an indication of the possible presence of x-rays.

Did you determine what made the wooden dowel orbit the superconductors?

Did you measure for temperature changes inside the box containing the scale?



At 8:02 AM 12/17/97, D Evans wrote:
>Dear Horace,
>
>  the superconductors I used did not rotate either (they where stacked in a
>pill bottle with a magnet between each superconductor ) and everything was
>imerseded in L2.also this aperatus was sheiled by a 3/4 " thick particle
>board( in other word i built an incloser all external forces where ruled
>the top box held the balance beam and ratget  the lower box held the sc and
>coil and L2  i did video tape this.  the wooden dowel was suspended from
>the balance beam by a cotton thread the balance beam was a 1/4 " dowel 4
>foot long
>the 1' wooden dowel was supended by the thread from the balance beam and i
>was not able to measure a reduction because on these trys the target dowel
>which was suspended  had a motion induced in it (that of circling the outer
>diamater of the superconductor)  the end closest to the super conducter
>swung around the outside of the superconductorwhile the end that was
>closest to the balance beam did not move very much and stayed above (in the
>exclushun zone)..
>
>
>
>l_______________l
>l  ____._____   l this section had the balance beam and was completly enclosed
>l  l          l l it was made out of 3/4 " particle board as was the bottom
>for
>l               l     a shield
>l_______________l
>l_______ll___[]_l  this section had the sc and coilther was a 3/4 " board
>above it
>
>
>hope this helps you understand     good work JOhn keep up the experiments
>
>Don Evans
>
>
>
>At 10:11 PM 12/16/97 -0900, you wrote:
>>At 11:12 PM 12/16/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>        My YBCO is no rotating.
>>
>>
>>I know, but Podkletnov's was.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>  For example, this heat beam effect
>>>> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the
>heat
>>>> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
>>>> balsa wood.
>>>
>>>
>>>        My stick is bamboo and does not rotate.  A piece of 1/4 glass and
>>>grounded screening are interposed.
>>
>>
>>I know about the glass and screen.  I think those could be both heated and
>>breached by sufficiently short wavelength.   Also, if I recall correctly,
>>these were simply laid on top of a three legged ring stand.  The sides were
>>not covered.  Lots of prospect for air currents around the sides.
>>
>>Sorry about the balsa wood, that was someone else's experiment. My memory
>>isn't so good these days.  The rotation thing is my mistake also, as that
>>was Don Evans experiment:
>>
>>Begin quote from antigravity:
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>At 4:00 PM 2/9/97, Don Evans wrote:
>>[snip]
>>> hello anti gravers
>>>
>>> i just spent about eight hours of running test today and am frustrated with
>>>the results.  i only achieved a slight movement up and down on these runs.
>>>i am using about a 12" x 3/4 " wooden dowel suspended over the
>>>superconductor vertically  by a cotton thread to the balance beam these are
>>>quite heavy and make a 1/4 " dowel bend a little.   the effect that i kept
>>>getting is that the dowel started moving in a circular motion and seemed to
>>>circle the edge of the htsc.
>>>>any ideas to explain this motion.  the top of the dowel seemed to stay
>>>centered but the bottom seemed to circle the edge of the htsc.  i stacked as
>>>many as 4 htsc disks and this seemed to intensify the motion with the
>>>addition of each disk.   any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
>>[snip]
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -
>>End Evans quote.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
>>>> the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown over
>>>> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and below the
>>>> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the stress.
>>>> It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
>>>> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
>>>>
>>>        There is no change below the rig.
>>
>>
>>I've seen reports from others saying they saw effects underneath.  Don't
>>recall where offhand.
>>
>>
>>[snip]
>>>
>>>        We film and no fogging.  We run GM counters... no reaction.
>>>Radio wors fine, scope works fine.
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>>
>>OK, well, that does it then.  The main concern is covered.  There is no
>>risk to the exerimenters.  You have already checked this out.
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner
>>
>>
>>

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 10:35:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12343;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:30:21 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217111113.00a06724 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:11:13 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Pout vs Pin
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"o2uS01.0.n03.xe1cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13971
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:15 12/17/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>  Your chart states that it only shows the "selected" data.
>Was that selected after a certain time of equilibrium, or
>for other reasons?

The selection was made by a rather subjective evaluation of the Pout, Pin
vs Time plot. The data comes from the 5 regions marked on that plot where
the calorimeter appeared to be in near-equilibrium.

>  Might try to increase the size of the data points, e.g.
>triangles etc., so that they are not hidden, and the
>precision can be seen.  Same for the data points at
>~50 and 170 Pin.

Good idea.  There is a limit to how well one can "see" the precision with
571 data points on such a plot.  The real story comes from the standard
error of the regression analysis...+/- 0.8 watts.

>   Good luck on finding your ZPE(vacuum).

Thanks.  Actually we've already found it...now we're just trying to do
something useful with it.



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 11:06:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09017;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:54:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:54:40 -0800
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:54:12 -0800
Message-Id: <199712171854.KAA15995 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Simple hypothesis on gravity
Resent-Message-ID: <"1_jOe2.0.gC2.k_1cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13972
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Greetings all;

>Isn't it possible to explain gravity not direct consequence of
(concentration of) energy or mass but the result of displacement of the mass
or the energy?

No.

>
>	Gravitational interaction between bodies are consequence of the net
movement of masses inside the bodies (atomic/ subatomic particles).

According to today's concepts, where particles can come to absolute zero and
have "no" motion, gravitation will still be in place between such masses.
So motion is not a requirement for gravitation.  Motion, leads to energy,
and thus leads to "more" gravitation due to the extra energy.  but the
motion is not require for gravitation to manifest.

As for how working with solitons differs, not much.  The solitons never come
to a rest at absolute zero.  Their center of resonance may halt, but they
are still like standing wave structures and highly dynamic.  So the notion
of degeneracy pressure is the result of that motion which persists even at
zero K.

And as for solitonic gravitation, it is very simple actually.  Solitons
oscillate at specific frequencies tied and driven by the surrounding
spacetime motions.  So other frequencies of waves will in part be filtered,
and thus you have a thrust away from arriving waves from above.  It is so
simple I don't understand the confusion.

By confining more solitons in a body such as earth, you induce a density of
aether gradient, and that density gradient comes with a slowing of wave
motions just as in air with density gradients where light and sound travel
at different velocities due to density variations in the medium they
propogate in.  Thus, the spacing of acoustic nodes will be "curved" in such
density gradients.  

Ergo, spacetime nodal structure is also curved and you can equally think of
gravitation as simply following the curved topology.  But that doesn't tell
you why the topology curved in the first place, whereas knowing about the
filtering mechanism does.  Aside from that, both are compatible.


snip;

>I thing this is a promising idea, please feedback to point out possible
contradictions or point which agree well with the experiment.

hamdi,  

you don't need motion for gravitation, period.  So the ideas are
interesting, but incorrect.  If you want to work with motion phenomena you
will need to reduce the scale of your investigation down to the motions of
the solitonic structures, and then study the attenuation and filtering of
the wave energies that are out of lock step with local spacetime motions.  

Go see the "Light Bullets Home Page" for how solitons can behave.

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 11:07:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09832;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:59:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:59:09 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217135930.006aec10 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:59:30 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Pout vs Pin
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971217111113.00a06724 mail.eden.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"p07Ex1.0.YP2.x32cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13973
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 11:11 AM 12/17/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote about his selection
of which data points to display:
>
>The selection was made by a rather subjective evaluation of the Pout, Pin
>vs Time plot. The data comes from the 5 regions marked on that plot where
>the calorimeter appeared to be in near-equilibrium.
>
>>  Might try to increase the size of the data points, e.g.
>>triangles etc., so that they are not hidden, and the
>>precision can be seen.  Same for the data points at
>>~50 and 170 Pin.
>
>Good idea.  There is a limit to how well one can "see" the precision with
>571 data points on such a plot.  The real story comes from the standard
>error of the regression analysis...+/- 0.8 watts.
>

  Depends upon the "selection" criteria which was
"subjective" as you mention.

 ====================================================

>>   Good luck on finding your ZPE(vacuum).
>
>Thanks.  Actually we've already found it...now we're just trying to do
>something useful with it.
>
>

  As Dr. Steve Weinberg noted on national TV, and as indicated
in the recent Scientific American article, you have not demonstrated it.
Unlike cold fusion which has been confirmed by CEREM, NASA, the US NAVY,
EPRI, JET Energy Technology, Blacklight etc, 
ZPE(vacuum) does NOT have similar confirmation.
This should not be confused with conventional zero point energy (ZPE(lattice))
which HAS been confirmed.

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:12:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25951;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:03:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:03:54 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:48:53 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712171451_MC2-2C52-16A3 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZBldB3.0.GL6.a03cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13974
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

To: Vortex

The Yomiuri newspaper headlines today reported that 360 children in Japan were
struck by seizures while watching a popular cartoon called "Pokemon" (Pocket
Monster). At one point during the broadcast the screen flashed red, on and
off, with sparkling lights. A five year old girl remains hospitalized and is
having trouble breathing. The AP reported:

     Colors exploded on TV screens across Japan, a cartoon character flashed
     his sparkling eyes -- and hundreds of young viewers were felled by fits
     of spasms and nausea.

     More than 600 viewers of TV Tokyo's hit cartoon "Pokemon" suffered
     epilepsy-like seizures about 20 minutes into Tuesday night's show and
     were rushed to the hospital.

     The broadcaster said today that it is canceling the segment on 30 other
     stations scheduled to show it. The bizarre sickness has officials
     considering new programming guidelines and mothers concerned that
     Japan's wildly popular cartoons could be harmful . . .

If this news appeared in the supermarket tabloids I would never have believed
it.

In a sense, the cartoon producers accidentally made a medical breakthrough.
They have performed the world's first mass screening for epileptic tendencies.
I hope the doctors study that film carefully. In the U.S. the producers would
face a barrage of lawsuits, but I doubt that will happen in Japan.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:20:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29347;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:16:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:16:28 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:00:19 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712171502_MC2-2C52-178A compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"4VUNu1.0.SA7.OC3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13975
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Mitchell Swartz asks:

     Why does the observed excess heat change from vertical to horizontal
     flow calorimetry (or static) for the SAME SYSTEM?

Answer: It doesn't. This has never happened. You can turn the cell on its side
or turn it right upside down, the excess heat will not disappear.

Actually, as far as I know, nobody has ever even tried this experiment. I
asked Mitch if he had, and he said he doesn't need to an experiment, the
equations prove he is right. I disagree. I am sure that if he does the
experiment, he will see that I am correct. I expect that is why he refuses to
do it. I do not need to perform this particular experiment because the
calibrations prove there is no artifact.

Please note that I am talking about an experiment roughly comparable to
McKubre's or Cravens', with a flow rate between 15 and 60 ml/minute. I have no
idea what would happen at lower flow rates. Swartz claimed that McKubre's
1-watt excess is an artifact -- that's what I am disputing.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:53:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05849;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:40:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:40:42 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217153825.006a6d40 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:38:25 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
In-Reply-To: <199712171502_MC2-2C52-178A compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KNtog3.0.DR1.7Z3cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13976
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


  About Jed's confusion regarding Bernard instability, and its
potential impact upon vertical flow calorimetry (which needs
a semiquantitative correction because of it), Jed wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz asks:
>
>     Why does the observed excess heat change from vertical to horizontal
>     flow calorimetry (or static) for the SAME SYSTEM?
>
>Answer: It doesn't. This has never happened. You can turn the cell on its
side
>or turn it right upside down, the excess heat will not disappear.
>

  Oh it does.   Jed is incorrect.

 And there are at least two "explanations" given. 

  =========================================================


>Actually, as far as I know, nobody has ever even tried this experiment. I
>asked Mitch if he had, and he said he doesn't need to an experiment, the
>equations prove he is right. 

 First, that is NOT what was said.  Theoretical, and other, experiments
have been done, and the previous post gave the explicit references.

 Second, furthermore, more than two groups have tried the experiment.
Jed Rothwell is wrong about this because vertical calorimetry
is an unnecessary potential problem at low flow states.


 Third, although, Mr. Rothwell does not "need" this experiment, as
previously he did not need adequate calibrations, serious
scientists will explore this literature more closely.

 Finally, the equations which include Bernard instability do
explain why this occurs.  

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
   JET Energy Technology


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:55:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06084;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:48:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:48:20 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34983811.FCA807E1 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:37:37 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple hypothesis on gravity
References: <199712171854.KAA15995 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"k7a_H.0.wU1.Gg3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13978
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross Tessien wrote:
> 
> Greetings all;
> 
> >Isn't it possible to explain gravity not direct consequence of
> (concentration of) energy or mass but the result of displacement of the mass
> or the energy?
> 
> No.
> 
> >
> >       Gravitational interaction between bodies are consequence of the net
> movement of masses inside the bodies (atomic/ subatomic particles).
> 
> According to today's concepts, where particles can come to absolute zero and
> have "no" motion, gravitation will still be in place between such masses.

This is not accurate. temperature is the simple manifestation of electrons having auxiliary energy will allow they radiate and exhibit this plus energy in inter atomic and molecular interactions. Actually, in absolute zero, atoms would be exist and electr
ons are on orbit and everything inside the atom, particles and energy carrying fields are fully in motion. Again, the electromagnetic field is essentially is energy flux which travel with c and assumed be source of gravitation and subjected to gravity. 

Currently, there are several well supported theories based to explain all matter as electromagnetic fields. Pure Electromagnetic Particles (PEP) has been proved existible consistent with maxwell equation. See my earlier posting on this subject.


On the contrary, I postulate there will be no energy source without incorporating dynamic components. Even the source of the electric field which assumed having an energy density need  electron which having spin and angular momentum. 

There is nothing in universe which could be described without introducing the time dimension, as you could not define and physical object having less spatial dimensions. (String theory and other theories using more than 4 dimension to describe the physica
l reality are excluded and may not compatible with my ideas.)


> So motion is not a requirement for gravitation.  Motion, leads to energy,
> and thus leads to "more" gravitation due to the extra energy.  but the
> motion is not require for gravitation to manifest.

I did found no against argument for my hypothesis. See above.

> 
> As for how working with solitons differs, not much.  The solitons never come
> to a rest at absolute zero.  Their center of resonance may halt, but they
> are still like standing wave structures and highly dynamic.  So the notion
> of degeneracy pressure is the result of that motion which persists even at
> zero K.
> 
> And as for solitonic gravitation, it is very simple actually.  Solitons
> oscillate at specific frequencies tied and driven by the surrounding
> spacetime motions.  So other frequencies of waves will in part be filtered,
> and thus you have a thrust away from arriving waves from above.  It is so
> simple I don't understand the confusion.

What you say seems paradoxical. In this case gravitation should be the consequence of dynamic
interactions. Could not be supposed static.

My model is assumed to do filtering and any vectorial operation on gravitation effect.
I am preparing an other letter to point out GR connection to my hypothesis.


> By confining more solitons in a body such as earth, you induce a density of
> aether gradient, and that density gradient comes with a slowing of wave
> motions just as in air with density gradients where light and sound travel
> at different velocities due to density variations in the medium they
> propogate in.  Thus, the spacing of acoustic nodes will be "curved" in such
> density gradients.

Actually, I am postulating basic gravity as random distributed vector fields which can not be mapped to gradient vector of distribution of densities. It is explained in detail on next letter. As result, Newtonian model did not work in my case need GR.

 
> Ergo, spacetime nodal structure is also curved and you can equally think of
> gravitation as simply following the curved topology.  But that doesn't tell
> you why the topology curved in the first place, whereas knowing about the
> filtering mechanism does.  Aside from that, both are compatible.

I am just try to explain how the space-time is being curved, not simply by distribution of mass/energies, but by vectorial sum of individual deforming vectors. I think the rubber example is clear. Energy movements are deforming the spacetime, and I hope w
ill found the reason why it should be deformed by space-time and energy relations.

> snip;
> 
> >I thing this is a promising idea, please feedback to point out possible
> contradictions or point which agree well with the experiment.
> 
> hamdi,
> 
> you don't need motion for gravitation, period.  So the ideas are
> interesting, but incorrect.  If you want to work with motion phenomena you
> will need to reduce the scale of your investigation down to the motions of
> the solitonic structures, and then study the attenuation and filtering of
> the wave energies that are out of lock step with local spacetime motions.
> 
> Go see the "Light Bullets Home Page" for how solitons can behave.
> 
> Ross Tessien

I am not precluding any other models and theories try to explain gravity. Indeed, there are many variation also in my hypothesis. But I see my hypothesis very radical and could help to build a good understanding on gravity.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:56:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06042;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:48:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:48:10 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:47:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
In-Reply-To: <199712171451_MC2-2C52-16A3 compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971217131247.28604A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"16wnE.0.EU1.1g3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13977
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:
-=snip=-
  >>The Yomiuri newspaper headlines today reported that 360 children in Japan were
  >>struck by seizures while watching a popular cartoon called "Pokemon" (Pocket
  >>Monster). At one point during the broadcast the screen flashed red, on and
  >>off, with sparkling lights. A five year old girl remains hospitalized and is
  >>having trouble breathing. The AP reported:
  >>
  >>     Colors exploded on TV screens across Japan, a cartoon character flashed
  >>     his sparkling eyes -- and hundreds of young viewers were felled by fits
  >>     of spasms and nausea.
  >>
  >>     More than 600 viewers of TV Tokyo's hit cartoon "Pokemon" suffered
  >>     epilepsy-like seizures about 20 minutes into Tuesday night's show and
  >>     were rushed to the hospital.
  >>
  >>     The broadcaster said today that it is canceling the segment on 30 other
  >>     stations scheduled to show it. The bizarre sickness has officials
  >>     considering new programming guidelines and mothers concerned that
  >>     Japan's wildly popular cartoons could be harmful . . .
  >>
  >>If this news appeared in the supermarket tabloids I would never have believed
  >>it.
  >>
  >>In a sense, the cartoon producers accidentally made a medical breakthrough.
  >>They have performed the world's first mass screening for epileptic tendencies.
  >>I hope the doctors study that film carefully. In the U.S. the producers would
  >>face a barrage of lawsuits, but I doubt that will happen in Japan.
  >>
  >>- Jed
  >>
Jed,
 YES, On the "mass screening", however there was another incident of mass
Reaction in Florida in the mid 50's to 60's when they built the 'Bee-Line
Hiway system.'  Hundreds of accidents occurred in normal flowing traffic,
as drivers went into seizures and just drove off the road. It was traced
to the multi-million dollar palm trees they had planted along both sides
of the hiway. It was found that near sunrise & sunset (sunlight near
horizon) and at certain speeds .. this 'Flashing Effect' of tree-sun, 
tree-sun, tree-sun... was the cause.  Since they couldn't control the
speeds (at any given rush-hour) nor the sun, They elected to pull-out at
random over 1/3 -1/2 of the perfectly planted royal palms. 
 Medical Science then (as now?) believed that everyone had some frequency
that would effect them in this 'appearent' epileptic reaction. An
individuals personal freq. can be found using a variable strob-light while
a person is connected to EEG.  I've heard that some doctors don't consider
this a sign of being a true-epiletic, but more the Hz that would 'shut one
down'. Kids having lower Hz than Adults, this cartoon show character (or
any flashing character for that matter) would be a reason for concern. 
 Could this be self - induced without tv?  I had a friend growing up that
joined us in 'Blinking our eyes as Fast as you could, for as long as you
could'.. This made everything look like a broken image - slow moving old
time crank movie. (try it ;), My friend would ALWAYS get dizzy, whirl and
fall down 'out-of it' for a minute or so.. we would all laugh a him. 

hummm then we get older :)
-=se=-

p.s. the try it is of course with caution.. about 10 seconds should give
you the idea of this effect. (trick was in real Fast and looking around).
he was appearantly real good at it.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 12:59:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06249;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:49:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:49:19 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34983A73.F17ACDB2 ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:47:47 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
References: <199712171451_MC2-2C52-16A3 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vlbuR3.0.XX1.Dh3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13979
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
 
> The Yomiuri newspaper headlines today reported that 360 children in Japan were
> struck by seizures while watching a popular cartoon called "Pokemon" (Pocket
> Monster). At one point during the broadcast the screen flashed red, on and
> off, with sparkling lights. A five year old girl remains hospitalized and is
> having trouble breathing. The AP reported:

> In a sense, the cartoon producers accidentally made a medical breakthrough.
> They have performed the world's first mass screening for epileptic tendencies.
> I hope the doctors study that film carefully. In the U.S. the producers would
> face a barrage of lawsuits, but I doubt that will happen in Japan.

This is the first mass account I've heard of, but this is a relatively
known reaction by many susceptible to virtual motion and strobe lights. 
The ailment made the news a couple years back as video games became more
popular.  Parents and church groups used it as ammo against the
perceived "evil" of these activities.  I personally know two people that
can not play Doom or 3D games like it because of intense vertigo,
nausea, and blackouts.  Typically people sensitive to bright light
showed the greatest reaction.  I don't think a link to epileptic
tendencies was ever made though.  Apparently the motion and images could
not be corroborated by other sensory elements in the brain and a
defensive shock was induced.  It was hypothesizes that the body's
monitoring systems interpreted the confusing signals with that of a mass
trauma.


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:06:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08053;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:58:37 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:47:50 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712171551_MC2-2C53-35F3 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"eAFVn3.0.kz1.wp3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13980
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I said that you can turn a flow cell sideways or upside-down and it will still
work. I mentioned that I have never actually performed this test. (And neither
has Mitch Swartz.) Come to think of it, I have run them upside-down. That is
to say, I asked Gene and Chris to switch the tubes so that the water goes the
other way, and the inlet becomes the outlet. This is a good way to test the
thermocouples. As far as I can see, this is functionally equivalent to turning
the whole cell upside down.

In every cell I have worked with the water went down a tube and spiraled back
up -- or it spiraled down and then came straight up, depending. This is the
best way to do it. The tube goes through two holes in the cell lid; there are
no openings in the bottom of the cell, so no leaks. The inlet and outlet
thermocouples are usually on the same level, just as they are with many of
Cravens' calorimeters. Perhaps this constitutes a level calorimeter? I really
cannot tell. I do not understand what Swartz has in mind. The water goes up
and down and it spirals around heading North, South, East and West, and the
TCs are mounted level sometimes, at other times with the inlet is high, and
sometimes it is lower, so I believe we have covered all the bases. In every
case I know of the calibration demonstrated with uncanny precision that 4.2
joules equals 1 calorie.

By the way, you should never reverse the flow with a CETI thin film cell. The
oxygen carried upstream past the beads will strip off the thin film in no
time! Come to think of it, that proves the "gas hidden in the water"
hypothesis is wrong.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:13:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09231;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:05:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:05:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <53f7ba49.34983c7d aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:56:27 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  TT Brown stuff on Discovery
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"JMRfH3.0.4G2.mw3cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13981
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/17/97 5:11:41 PM, Wharton wrote:

<<I was surprised to see that the Air Force has an
antigravity research project with an investigator doing T. Townsend Brown
antigravity experiments.>>

Was this the 1991 Talley study done for Edwards AFB's Phillips Lab out of
Veritay Technology, or something newer?

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:16:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10669;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:09:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:09:41 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0bdc83c9534 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:12:11 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Podkletnov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
Resent-Message-ID: <"-AhFZ1.0.Yc2.K-3cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13982
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:04 AM 12/17/97, Patrick V. Reavis wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>> If you place two superconductors, with a high DC potential, close to
>> each
>>  other, an electromagnetic emission occurrs in the megacycle range.
>>
>>
>> Yes.  It's called the AC Josephson effect.  A voltage of 10^-6 V can
>> cause
>> an EM  radiation of 500 MHz across a very thin (Josephson) junction. I
>>
>> assume a higher voltage will permit much larger gaps.  .
>
>yes Horace, however, the experiment uses AC fields (3-4Mhz)


Yes, I understand that.  If you assume a 4 MHz drive coil frequency, then
there is 125 nsec to a pulse, enough time relative to a 500 MHz signal to
be DC for all practical purposes.  At 500 MHz, 125 nsec is enough time for
62 waveforms. At xray frequencies, 125 nsec is a very long time, it *is* DC
relatively speaking.

On the other hand, my hypothesis is totally outlandish on the mechanism
side.  It is not clear exactly what the mechanism is (though I speculated
on some possibilities) that could create x-ray frequencies, as this would
involve repetitive tunneling back and forth at an astronomical rate, and
thus across a  high voltage differential.  It means the establishment of a
forbidden zone across which the tunneling occurs at a high voltage.  It is
also true that pairs break down quickly as voltage differences increase
internal to a superconductor. Another point of interest is the fact that
superconductors only have zero resistance to DC current.  AC currents
experience resistance due to the electron pair apparent masses 2m*, and
generate internal potentials in those AC conditions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:16:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11513;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:12:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:12:57 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217161321.006ac478 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:13:21 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: etiquette; Arata & Zhang criticism
In-Reply-To: <199712171551_MC2-2C53-35F3 compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"e6PqC2.0.jp2.O14cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13983
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 03:47 PM 12/17/97 -0500, Jed wrote:

>I do not understand what Swartz has in mind.

  Is that because it actually requires READING the
article, DERIVING the simple equations, and CONSIDERING
the impact of other mechanisms driving mass flow?

  In fact, the impact of Bernard instability is considered in
any basic text on continuum electromechanics.  Although
many may disagree as to the impact, the concept of more than 
one mechanism driving fluid flow (here including thermally induced
density gradients) is rather simple and adequately covered
in the cited references and bibliographies therein. 


 ==============================================


> In every case I know of the calibration demonstrated with uncanny 
> precision that 4.2 joules equals 1 calorie.

  That 1 calorie is 4.184 Joules hardly seems a calibration,
because it is a definition, and would not be expected to change.

  Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:21:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10655;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:14:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971217161346.006a0ae0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:13:46 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  Simple hypothesis on gravity
In-Reply-To: <eef68ed9.34971517 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"rJbPq.0.Bc2.l24cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13984
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 06:41 PM 12/16/97 EST, Hal Puthoff  wrote:
>
>The ZPE model of gravity proposes just this solution, with the gravitational
>mass simply being the kinetic energy of ZPE-driven random motion of the
>constituent quarks, the grav interaction being a sort of long-range van der
>Waals force associated with this random motion, etc.  See H. Puthoff,
"Gravity
>as a zero-point-fluctuation force," Phys Rev A, vol 39, p. 2333, 1989; vol.
>47, p. 3454, 1993.


    It seems curious that ZPE(vacuum) is purported as giving rise to
the Potopov device, cold fusion with Pd D2O, cold fusion with
nickel H2O, sonoluminescence, cavitation,
the George-Stringham expt, light percolating through vacuum triggering 
solar cells, and now even gravity. 

 For when the review is written shortly:
Is there anything with which the miniscule fluctuating,
hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is NOT purportedly associated?

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:28:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15072;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:23:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:23:25 -0800
Message-ID: <3498351B.3D14 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:24:59 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: McKubre's Final Report
References: <971217120026_1540774699 mrin52>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"JJkg01.0.Oh3.BB4cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13985
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 17, 1997

Hi Tom Stolper,   One of the scientists in the community, who is
avoiding being flamed  by interacting through me, is loaning me his copy
of McKubre's report.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 13:36:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16293;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:28:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:28:41 -0800
Message-Id: <3498438B.A9504DE9 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:26:35 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Simple hypothesis on gravity
References: <eef68ed9.34971517 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dNIfT3.0.T-3.7G4cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13986
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Hall,

Apologize for to not study your materials enough before developing my ideas.

Your hypothesis is very close what I am thinking but I am trying to avoid Newtonian and quantum like models to explain gravity by direct interaction between particle. Instead, I want base my ideas to General Relativity concepts. I try to explain below why
 I am choosing this way.

This is way I am thinking:

- Energy flux/displacement is source of gravitation. 

- The fundamental effect due to an isolated energy flux on a frame of reference have directional property and may be described by vector(s). (I should study the tensor concept, which may offer the correct definition.)

- Vectorial presentation is required to avoid pure arithmetic additions of individual component of gravity. This the same idea that you wrote on your theory. Actually, I think there are solutions to prevent the sum of vectors for totally vanishing and not
 exhibit gravitational field macroscopically. One is the curvature of the metric itself which carry the phenomena to non-linear area. More on this below. An other one could the propagation factor of the components on the space-time. As the motion of energ
y component inside the matter are not linear, the net effect could not totally canceled but will remain a residual isotropic noise like effect that we name it as gravity or macroscopic space-time curvature.

- Newtonian model seems not suitable to describe the effect of an isolated energy flux on a 
frame of reference. Because it force to think gravity as interaction between bodies and the source of this interaction should be scalar entity (mass). Ambiguity arise when the source assumed a vector having a geometric direction. This is like the case whe
n one try to insert random electric fields vectors distributed in a volume. This violate the Gauss's Law and such a random distribution could not be mapped to distribution of charges. I will try to express this using curls and divs later. As the distribut
ion of these vectors are not gradient of scalar field, the line integral of these vectors taken over a closed curve will not vanish. As summary, Newtonian gravity require the gravitational field be the gradient vectors of a distribution of mass, it not ap
plicable when the gravitational vectors distribution is not a gradient field.

On the other hand General Relativity model seem suitable to describe these non gradient vectors. It also allow to describe the vector associated to a isolated energy flux on a frame of reference.

- As basic idea what I am thinking around is, may the energy flux or displacement of energy concept be more fundamental than the static energy concept. Rest and kinetic energies will be unified, the energy concept will strongly integrated with the space a
nd time and may offer more clear picture of our physical reality. 


In this view, ZPE could be the fundamental force directly related energy flux/displacement.
This allows to define ZPE as universal force, maybe all the constituents of forces arise in nature (Coulomb, Lorentz and gravitational)

Actually, I am preparing this hypothesis to make it  compatible with  gravity modification experiment results.
As the superconduction is known a Bose-Einstein condensate which able matter components behave and move coherently, the natural random motions or interactions of components are disappearing and prevent individual gravitational components cancel each other
 effectively and lead the observed results. 



Puthoff wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 12/16/97 11:11:47 PM, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
> 
> <<Gravitational interaction between bodies are consequence of the net movement
> of masses inside the bodies (atomic/ subatomic particles).
> 
> So gravity become a residual force of large gravitational effect created by
> movement of individual particles inside the matter, but mainly canceled due
> their  random movements.>>
> 
> The ZPE model of gravity proposes just this solution, with the gravitational
> mass simply being the kinetic energy of ZPE-driven random motion of the
> constituent quarks, the grav interaction being a sort of long-range van der
> Waals force associated with this random motion, etc.  See H. Puthoff, "Gravity
> as a zero-point-fluctuation force," Phys Rev A, vol 39, p. 2333, 1989; vol.
> 47, p. 3454, 1993.
> 
> Hal Puthoff

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 14:15:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19878;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:48:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:48:05 -0800
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5E7 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'Vortex-L'" <Vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: FW: Santa Analysis (read on your off company time)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:47:58 -0800
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"yfAqE.0.Ws4.JY4cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13987
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> > Just in case some kid ask you if there is a Santa (from an
> engineer's
> > point of view or analysis)!
> > 
> > I.  There are approximately two billion children (persons under 18)
> in
> > the world. However, since Santa does not visit children of Muslim,
> > Hindu, Jewish or Buddhist religions, this reduces the workload for
> > Christmas night to 15% of the total, or 378 million (according to
> the
> > Population Reference Bureau).  At an average(census) rate of 3.5
> > children per house hold, that comes to 108 million homes, presuming
> > that there is at least one good child in each.
> > 
> > II. Santa has about 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to
> the
> > different time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he
> > travels east to west (which seems logical). This works out to 967.7
> > visits per second.  This is to say that for each Christian household
> > with a good child, Santa has around 1/1000th of a second to park the
> > sleigh, hop out, jump down the chimney, fill the stockings,
> distribute
> > the remaining presents under the tree, eat whatever snacks have been
> > left for him, get back up the chimney, jump into the sleigh and get
> on
> > to the next house.  Assuming that each of these 108 million stops is
> > evenly distributed around  the earth (which, of course, we know to
> be
> > false, but will accept for the purposes of our calculations), we are
> > now talking about 0.78 miles per  household; a total trip of 75.5
> > million miles, not counting bathroom stops or breaks. This means
> > Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second--3,000 times the
> > speed of sound.  For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made
> > vehicle, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per
> > second, and a conventional reindeer can run (at best) 15 miles per
> > hour.
> > 
> > III. The payload of the sleigh adds another interesting element.
> > Assuming that each child gets nothing more than a medium sized Lego
> > set (two pounds), the sleigh is carrying over 500 thousand tons, not
> > counting Santa himself.  On land, a conventional reindeer can pull
> no
> > more than 300 pounds.   Even granting that  the "flying" reindeer
> > could pull ten times the normal amount, the job can't  be done with
> > eight or even nine of them --- Santa would need 360,000 of them.
> This
> > increases the payload, not counting the weight of the sleigh,
> another
> > 54,000 tons, or roughly seven times the weight of the Queen
> Elizabeth
> > (the ship, not the monarch).
> > 
> > IV.  600,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second crates enormous
> > air resistance --- this would heat up the reindeer in the same
> fashion
> > as a spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of
> > reindeer would absorb 14.3 quintillion joules of energy per second
> > each. In short, they would burst into flames almost instantaneously,
> > exposing the reindeer behind them and creating deafening sonic booms
> > in their wake.  The entire reindeer team would be vaporized within
> > 4.26 thousandths of a second, or right about the time Santa reached
> > the fifth house on his trip.  Not  that it matters, however, since
> > Santa, as a result of accelerating from a
> > dead stop to 650 m.p.s. in .001 seconds, would be subjected to
> > centrifugal forces of 17,500 g's. A 250 pound Santa (which seems
> > ludicrously slim) would be pinned to the back of the sleigh by
> > 4,315,015 pounds of force, instantly crushing his bones and organs
> and
> > reducing him to a quivering blob of pink goo.
> > 
> > V.  Therefore, if Santa did exist, he's dead now.
> > 
> > Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 14:18:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15920;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5E8 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'Vortex-L'" <Vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Holiday Humor
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:48:49 -0800
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Resent-Message-ID: <"IhfN-3.0.bu3.uZ4cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13988
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> A little humor for your Holiday Season enjoyment.
>  ----------
> 
> The Psychology of Engineers
> 
> (1) ENGINEER IDENTIFICATION HINTS
> 
>      You walk into a room and notice that a picture is
> hanging crooked.
>  You:
> 
>           A. Straighten it.
>           B. Ignore it.
>           C. Buy a CAD system and spend the next six
> months designing a solar-powered, self-adjusting picture
> frame while often stating aloud your belief that the inventor
> of the nail was a total moron.
> 
>      The correct answer is "C" but partial credit can be given
> to anybody who writes "It depends" in the margin of the test
> or simply blames the whole stupid thing on "Marketing."
> 
> (2) SOCIAL SKILLS
> 
>      Engineers have different objectives when it comes to
> social interaction.  Normal people expect to accomplish
> several unrealistic things from social interaction:
> 
>      * Stimulating and thought-provoking conversation
>      * Important social contacts
>      * A feeling of connectedness with other humans
> 
>      In contrast to normal people, engineers have rational
> objectives for social interactions:
> 
>      * Get it over with as soon as possible.
>      * Avoid getting invited to something unpleasant.
>      * Demonstrate mental superiority and mastery of all
> subjects.
> 
> (3) FASCINATION WITH GADGETS
> 
>      To the engineer, all matter in the universe can be placed
> into one of two categories: (1) things that need to be fixed,
> and (2) things that will need to be fixed after you've had a
> few minutes to play with them.  Engineers like to solve
> problems. If there are no problems handily available, they
> will create their own problems. Normal people don't
> understand this concept; they believe that if it ain't broke,
> don't fix it.  Engineers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't
> have enough features yet.
> 
>      No engineer looks at a television remote control without
> wondering what it would take to turn it into a stun gun. No
> engineer can take a shower without wondering if some sort
> of Teflon coating would make showering unnecessary. To
> the engineer, the world is a toy box full of sub-optimized and
> feature-poor toys.
> 
> (4) FASHION AND APPEARANCE
> 
>      Clothes are the lowest priority for an engineer, assuming
> the basic thresholds for temperature and decency have been
> satisfied. If no appendages are freezing or sticking together,
> and if no genitalia or mammary glands are swinging around
> in plain view, then the objective of clothing has been met.
> Anything else is a waste.
> 
> (5) LOVE OF "STAR TREK"
> 
>      Engineers love all of the "Star Trek" television shows
> and movies. It's a small wonder, since the engineers on the
> starship Enterprise are portrayed as heroes, occasionally
> even having sex with aliens. This is much more glamorous
> than the real life of an engineer, which consists of hiding
> from the universe and having sex without the participation
> of other life forms.
> 
> (6) DATING AND SOCIAL LIFE
> 
>      Dating is never easy for engineers. A normal person will
> employ various indirect and duplicitous methods to create a
> false impression of attractiveness. Engineers are incapable
> of placing appearance above function.
> 
>      Fortunately, engineers have an ace in the hole. They are
> widely recognized as superior marriage material: intelligent,
> dependable, employed, honest, and handy around the house.
> While it's true that many normal people would prefer not to
> date an engineer, most normal people harbor an intense
> desire to mate with them, thus producing engineer-like
> children who will have high-paying jobs long before losing
> their virginity.
> 
>      Male engineers reach their peak of sexual attractiveness
> later than normal men, becoming irresistible erotic dynamos
> in their mid thirties to late forties. Just look at these
> examples of sexually irresistible men in technical
> professions:
> 
>      * Bill Gates.
>      * MacGyver.
>      * Etcetera.
> 
>      Female engineers become irresistible at the age of
> consent and remain that way until about thirty minutes after
> their clinical death. Longer if it's a warm day.
> 
> (7) HONESTY
> 
>      Engineers are always honest in matters of technology
> and human relationships. That's why it's a good idea to keep
> engineers away from customers, romantic interests, and
> other people who can't handle the truth.
> 
>      Engineers sometimes bend the truth to avoid work.
> They say things that sound like lies but technically are not
> because nobody could be expected to believe them. The
> complete list of engineer lies is listed below.
> 
>      * "I won't change anything without asking you first."
>      * "I'll return your hard-to-find cable tomorrow."
>      * "I have to have new equipment to do my job."
>      * "I'm not jealous of your new computer."
> 
> (8) FRUGALITY
> 
>      Engineers are notoriously frugal. This is not because of
> cheapness or mean spirit; it is simply because every
> spending situation is simply a problem in optimization, that is,
> "How can I escape this situation while retaining the greatest
> amount of cash?"
> 
> (9) POWERS OF CONCENTRATION
> 
>      If there is one trait that best defines an engineer it is the
> ability to concentrate on one subject to the complete
> exclusion of everything else in the environment. This
> sometimes causes engineers to be pronounced dead
> prematurely. Some funeral homes in high-tech areas have
> started checking resumes before processing the bodies.
> Anybody with a degree in electrical engineering or
> experience in computer programming is propped up in the
> lounge for a few days just to see if he or she snaps out of it.
> 
> (10) RISK
> 
>      Engineers hate risk. They try to eliminate it whenever
> they can. This is understandable, given that when an
> engineer makes one little mistake the media will treat it like
> it's a big deal or something.
> 
> (11) EXAMPLES OF BAD PRESS FOR ENGINEERS
> 
>      * Hindenberg.
>      * Space Shuttle Challenger.
>      * SPANet(tm)
>      * Hubble space telescope.
>      * Apollo 13.
>      * Titanic.
>      * Ford Pinto.
>      * Corvair.
>      * Windows (3.1, 95, & NT)
> 
>      The risk/reward calculation for engineers looks
> something like this:
> 
>      * RISK: Public humiliation and the death of thousands of
> innocent people.
>      * REWARD: A certificate of appreciation in a
> handsome plastic frame.
> 
>      Being practical people, engineers evaluate this balance
> of risks and rewards and decide that risk is not a good thing.
> The best way to avoid risk is by advising that any activity is
> technically impossible for reasons that are far too
> complicated to explain.
> 
>      If that approach is not sufficient to halt the project, then
> the engineer will fall back to a second line of defense: "It's
> technically possible but it will cost too much."
> 
> (12) EGO
> 
>      Ego-wise, two things are important to engineers:
> 
>      * How smart they are.
>      * How many cool devices they own.
> 
>      The fastest way to get an engineer to solve a problem is
> to declare that the problem is unsolvable. No engineer can
> walk away from an unsolvable problem until it's solved. No
> illness or distraction is sufficient to get the engineer off the
> case. These types of challenges quickly become personal -
> a battle between the engineer and the laws of nature.
> Engineers will go without food and hygiene for days to solve
> a problem. (Other times just because they forgot.) And
> when they succeed in solving the problem they will
> experience an ego rush that is better than sex - and I'm
> including the kind of sex where other people are involved.
> Nothing is more threatening to the engineer than the
> suggestion that somebody has more technical skill. Normal
> people sometimes use that knowledge as a lever to extract
> more work from the engineer. When an engineer says that
> something can't be done (a code phrase that means it's not
> fun to do), some clever normal people have learned to
> glance at the engineer with a look of compassion and pity
> and say something along these lines: "I'll ask Bob to figure it
> out. He knows how to solve difficult technical problems." At
> that point it is a good idea for the normal person to not stand
> between the engineer and the problem. The engineer will
> set upon the problem like a starved Chihuahua on a pork
> chop.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 14:54:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA32429;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:37:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:37:47 -0800
Message-ID: <34984680.32DB earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:39:12 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Rothwell on Murray's lapses
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cn5lJ.0.aw7.vG5cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13989
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 17, 1997

Dear all,    Jed Rothwell has quite rightly mentioned some of my past
indiscretions in etiquette:

"insults comparing distinguished scientists to "pigeons" or "blind
Beethoven" or what-have-you."  I agree that this sort of mockery is
disfunctional communication, unworthy of the society of free men.

"I ask that you stop posting lies -- yes, irresponsible lies! -- like
your claim that Arata uses obsolete equipment."  Jed, perhaps you are in
a bit of a rush...I mentioned that in my memory, I never posted this
opinion to anyone, although in truth I hold it, until we started talking
about it.  You seem to have a clear conviction that this post from me
exists-- I understand, however, if you are too busy to find it and post
it to document your memory.

Despite the convincing appearance of all kinds of separations, there
exists in fact one infinity, so big, intimate, cany, and uncany, that I
personally do not like to attempt to specify it with capitals.  In
rememberance of this ineluctable unity, similar to the motto on our
money, E Plurius Unam, "Out of many, One."  I like to sign off with

As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:46:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10856;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:34:23 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:34:23 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <1e7d97eb.3498606b aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:29:43 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Pout vs Pin
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"BXCEy3.0.Yf2.y56cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13990
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/17/97 9:55:55 PM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<ZPE(vacuum) does NOT have similar confirmation.>>

It was good enough for Willis Lamb to get the Nobel Prize with.  It's good
enough to explain why liquid helium stays liquid at low temperatures.  It's
good enough...............

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:55:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03065;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: CETI patent 5672259
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:41:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <349943aa.776008 mail.eisa.net.au>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZBQRf3.0.nl.KE6cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13991
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I noticed while reading this that in the list of actinides, thorium,
uranium, and nobelium were left out. Does anyone know if this was
intentional, and if so why?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:57:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03538;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:48:09 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:48:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Frank Chilton <fchltn pacbell.net>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:45:31 -0800
Message-ID: <yam7289.1591.18430208 mail.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <3497E390.2496 pacbell.net>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: The Japanese Cartoon Disaster
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"7BShv3.0.Bt.sI6cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13993
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On 17-Dec-97, Frank Chilton, PhD wrote:

>You may want to comment upon Steve Ekwall's Message in Vortex-L Digest
>V97 #684.

>Cheers, Frank

 Well, I don't think the cartoon _caused_ anything, except to dig up
 something that was latent in those _few_ children.

 The best I can think to do some desensitizing work, with ROSHI.
 That'll work :)

Best,
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 15:58:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03306;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:45:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:45:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <2a02c368.34985f3b aol.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:24:40 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Simple hypothesis on gravity
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"RgfXi1.0.Yp.TG6cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13992
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/17/97 9:20:29 PM, Mitchell Swartz asks:

<<Is there anything with which the miniscule fluctuating,
hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is NOT purportedly associated?>>

Santa Claus!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 16:49:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31210;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:39:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:39:51 -0800
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:39:43 -0800
Message-Id: <199712180039.QAA18327 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Simple hypothesis on gravity
Resent-Message-ID: <"6CErh1.0.Vd7.M37cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13994
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>> According to today's concepts, where particles can come to absolute zero and
>> have "no" motion, gravitation will still be in place between such masses.
>
>This is not accurate. temperature is the simple manifestation of electrons
having auxiliary energy will allow they radiate and exhibit this plus energy
in inter atomic and molecular interactions. Actually, in absolute zero,
atoms would be exist and electrons are on orbit and everything inside the
atom, particles and energy carrying fields are fully in motion. Again, the
electromagnetic field is essentially is energy flux which travel with c and
assumed be source of gravitation and subjected to gravity. 



This is not correct.  Temperature is the average kinetic energy of the
particles involved.  T == KE.   The temperature of the nuclei is more
important than the temperature of the electrons because the mass is so very
much larger.  The KE of the motions of the nuclei harbor the majority of the
energy in a material.  So when the nuclei cease to move, there is no more KE
in them, and ergo a 0 temperature.  They still, however, harbor the vast
majority of the gravitational interaction in that medium, even if you choose
to consider that the electrons are still in an orbital motion.

That is unless you are trying to say that the vast majority of the
gravitational interaction comes from electrons and not from the very much
heavier nuclei, at which point I think many experiments would simply show
that notion to be false.




>
>Currently, there are several well supported theories based to explain all
matter as electromagnetic fields. Pure Electromagnetic Particles (PEP) has
been proved existible consistent with maxwell equation. See my earlier
posting on this subject.

I agree with this, Light Bullets are one form of soliton that meets these
requirements.



>> And as for solitonic gravitation, it is very simple actually.  Solitons
>> oscillate at specific frequencies tied and driven by the surrounding
>> spacetime motions.  So other frequencies of waves will in part be filtered,
>> and thus you have a thrust away from arriving waves from above.  It is so
>> simple I don't understand the confusion.
>
>What you say seems paradoxical. In this case gravitation should be the
consequence of dynamic
>interactions. Could not be supposed static.

To me, using the soliton model, gravitation IS a dynamic interaction between
incident wave energy arriving from space, and the particles making up the
gravitating mass.  But the motions are of the soliton or, essentially
standing wave structures of the particles (I hate the term particle as it is
incorrect).  These are wave structures, not pea's.

So incident waves that are not in synchrony to the vibrations of the soliton
structures will in part be filtered out, and re-emitted at the local
spacetime resonant frequency.  That filtering leads to thrust, and the
thrust is called gravitation.  

When you say the electron is in motion due to orbit, you fail to give
structure to the electron itself.  You are still working with a pea.  And
you are not giving proper credit to the nuclei where the majority of the
mass effect resides.

To me, a proton is a composite soliton made of 9 muon resonances all locked
into a donut like vortex in 3 groups of 3 resonances at 0, 90, 180, and 270
degree phase angles.  So, I don't really have anything but "electrons" in a
certain sense.  My nucleons are composed of a group of phase and frequency
locked electrons in the muon form.

And yes, even if the proton remains fixed in location, it is a highly
energetic moving vibrating soliton wave structure.  So there is motion at
absolute zero.  The gravitation is thus a filtering of waves that are
frequency shifted from the local vibratory patterns.  Put another way, red
shifted QVF.  Put another way, Doppler shifted wave emissions from nucleons
in the distant parts of the universe where they are receeding due to the
Hubble expansion, the Doppler shifted waves failing to match local
resonances and thus being filtered out.

The waves I speak of are at the Planck scale, E-35 meters, and are what we
know as, "spacetime".

Ross Tessien

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 17:34:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18960;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:27:09 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:20:51 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
cc: "'Vortex-L'" <Vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Santa Analysis (read on your off company time)
In-Reply-To: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5E7 xch-cpc-02>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971217201313.22703D-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"4EY7l1.0.Ae4.hl7cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13995
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	Santa gets from house to house pretty quick.  He uses faith and 
magic and often works with the aid of agent-helpers, usually recruited by 
age long custom of word of mouth, and usually related to the recipient 
children.
	Over the years many terms have been used to describe the basis 
behind some types of miracles.  One term the 'new age' has embraced from 
time to time is 'subtle energies' or similar terms.  The energies, if 
such they are, can only be considered 'subtle' because they do not always 
make big overt events within our ken.  If we were to be fully aware of 
the underpinnings of this operation of miracles, it wuld seem in no way 
subtle.

	But let us say, for the sake of a very poor terminology, the 
effects are to be called subtle:

	The passage of Santa in and out of out households often occurs 
with certain aspects of the rate of change within the audible spectrum.
	This is often periodic in nature and is sensed and a bell like 
ringing ....

				Happy Christmas


	Addemdum:  Miracles are IN NO WAY subtle.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 19:54:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03081;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:44 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Rothwell on Murray's lapses, some quotes
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:33:50 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971218035352463.AAB106 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"nzaE1.0.zl.Is9cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13998
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rich, you are beginning to see the light. But it was more than etiquette,
they were pejorative distortions of the truth. 

----------
> "I ask that you stop posting lies -- yes, irresponsible lies! -- like
> your claim that Arata uses obsolete equipment."  Jed, perhaps you are in
> a bit of a rush...I mentioned that in my memory, I never posted this
> opinion to anyone, although in truth I hold it, until we started talking
> about it.  You seem to have a clear conviction that this post from me
> exists-- I understand, however, if you are too busy to find it and post
> it to document your memory.
------------
>From Rich's post on 10/25/97:

....The poor quality of the excess energy claims destroys the main thrust
of
Arata and Zhang's work, that their complex and subtle measurements of
He-4 and He-3 show the levels that should exist for the claimed energy
production.  

>From Rich's post on 11/8/97

 ....Naturally, these kind of percentages are never given
in this paper.  These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded
calorimetry, are meaningless noise, readily achieved if the recombiner
catalyst is only partially effective. [Here is a blatant error on my
part, since recombination would only reduce any apparent excess power.] 
--------------

Now Jed may not have quoted the exact words, but Rich's own words are of
the same intent and meaning. In the last quote his misconceptions about the
effect of recombiner had already been corrected by Scott. Rich has
persisted until my last discussion in seeing only noise in the A&Z data.
That failed, and he went on to discuss Fig 9 in more temperate style, but
equally off target, even after I had told him that it has nothing to do
with calorimetry. He was, indeed, a bit dense about the presumption that a
massive power failure might have produced the pressure variations. 

Jed is right about that pounding he would have taken with much lesser
lapses. Rich was apparently not around in early '96 when Jed was being
pounded for his report on the CETI demo at PowerGen 95, which showed heat
release in the kilowatt range for a short period. Rich has not stood up and
said "I was wrong, I retract". He has changed the subject an admitted in an
offhand way to serious lapses of analytical ability while taking to task
major scientists attempting difficult, exacting work. 

> Despite the convincing appearance of all kinds of separations, there
> exists in fact one infinity, so big, intimate, cany, and uncany, that I
> personally do not like to attempt to specify it with capitals.  In
> rememberance of this ineluctable unity, similar to the motto on our
> money, E Plurius Unam, "Out of many, One."  I like to sign off with
> 
> As one,   Rich Murray

Yes, Rich, there is an underlying unity which eludes all description but
manifests itself in the core of each of us. When we are engaged in Maya and
pretend to play by the rules of scientific discovery and human endeavor,
then it does matter what we say and to whom about what, for real injury to
real people an real causes can occur. Knowledge of a deeper reality does
not justify irresponsible behavior and speech.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 19:54:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03056;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:40 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A&Z, overview
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:01:56 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971218035352463.AAC106 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"L6_Q02.0.Xl.Bs9cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13997
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tom Stolper has suggested modifications to my conclusions, which I think
are fair. 

I said:
> 1) Substantial excess energy is produce by heavily deuterated Pd
> 2) The process is a LENR, with "nuclear ash" in the form of 4He and 3He
is
> produced
> 3) The reactions do not produce gamma and neutron radiation as expected
> from plasma fusion
> 4) New theoretical work is needed to understand the phenomenon

Tom added: 
> It seems to me that only 1) and 3) have been proven and that even 1)
should
> be modified to read "Substantial excess energy is produced by deuterated
Pd
> running in a lithium hydroxide electrolyte."  The lithium  is probably a
> crucial part of the setup.

I can agree that the A&Z paper justifies only the more restrictive version
of statement 1). Mitchell Swartz made a similar comment in a private
communication. I had in mind reports from other sources, which do not have
the thorough context of the A&Z paper. More work is needed before the
statement can be generalized. I (and we) must not fall into the same error
that the hot fusion TB's make, namely, extrapolation of a theory covering
familiar conditions to unfamiliar conditions. 
 
> As for 2), what we have is a species of mass 4 and another species of
mass 3.
>  Neither Rich Murray nor Mike Carrell has claimed to be expert in mass
> spectroscopy.  Both have called for an expert in mass spectroscopy to
examine
> the A&Z paper.  The discussion of this vital aspect of the paper hasn't
been
> nearly as thorough as the discussion of excess heat.

No, it hasn't. The only person I know of who has given that portion of the
paper a thorough review is Mitchell Swartz, and he saw fit to feature it in
his publication "Cold Fusion Times". I think I have a general idea of what
the QMS shows, but there is a richness of data I haven't attempted to
follow.

> As someone who thinks that Mills is right about the existence of 1/n
states
> of hydrogen, I'd be inclined to interpret the species of mass 4 as the
> dideuterino molecule and the species of mass 3 as tritium.  Mike, how do
you
> feel about that possibility?

I'm on your side of the fence about Mills. However, he is specific about
the catalytic process that produces hydrinos, and that process is not
present in the A&Z equipment. However, there is so much that isn't known in
this area that dogmatism is inappropriate. Some decades hence it may be
obvious in hindsight that many processes can cause orbital collapse --
hydrogen is only one instance of what is probably a general case -- and
that collapsed atoms (pseudo neutrons) may facilitate LENR. Who knows. Each
researcher wants to claim a piece of the new turf; this isn't intellectual
greed, it is the desperate need to grasp straws of certainty to make any
kind of a raft to keep from drowning in the sea of data. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 19:54:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03036;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:50:37 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:00:59 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971218035352463.AAA106 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"dN9xB.0.Ml.As9cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13996
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The strobe-induced epilepsy is very real. My wife is disturbed by driving
past trees when the sun is low and she is flooded by flashing light, even
if not directly in her eyes. 

I once borrowed a strobe tachometer from work for her and left her to play
with it while I went downstairs. A few minutes later I heard a thud and
went upstairs to find her slumped on the floor, nearly unconscious. I
helped her to bed, and after a rest, she was OK. She had a petite mal
seizure, her only one. 

The strobe does not affect me. I can turn it full in my face, with my eyes
closed, and the most I see at any frequency is a dense pattern of
interconnected zig-zag lines, with no other reactions. The effect in Japan
is quite plausible. 

There is speculation that any strong stimulus near the basic brain scanning
frequency, 10-15 Hz, can upset susceptible individuals. There is some
evidence that strong subsonic sound can do this also. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 20:01:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11878;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:57:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:57:06 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971217190052.007a99b0 kfalls.net>
X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:00:52 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: D Evans <me2 kfalls.net>
Subject: Re: READ TO LEARN ..Re: Potapov/Schnurer effect due to x-rays?
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0bdc03cb431 [199.237.131.247]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"PTfUw2.0.Vv2.Fy9cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/13999
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

no i didnt on both accounts i was discouraged because i didnt achieve the
reduction (shieing)that i previosly abtained and then business interest
forced me to put my nose to the grindstone however i hope to begin
experiments again in the new year as business has been good to me  and i
should be able have some time to dedicate to this end  hope everyone has a
good holiday season   Don


At 09:06 AM 12/17/97 -0900, you wrote:
>Hello Don,
>
>Thanks for responding.  Well, this shows how carefully one must choose
>words!  My mistake was using the word "rotate" instead of "circling" or
>"orbiting" in reference to your dowel.  However, I thought quoting your
>post would clear that up, but I guess not.  I never meant to imply that
>your's or John's magnets rotated, only Podkletnov's.  I do still feel I had
>a very good understanding of your experiment, just did not do well in the
>explaining I guess.  I still think your results are a great example
>supporting the hypothesis that the beam both penetrates material and heats
>it - an indication of the possible presence of x-rays.
>
>Did you determine what made the wooden dowel orbit the superconductors?
>
>Did you measure for temperature changes inside the box containing the scale?
>
>
>
>At 8:02 AM 12/17/97, D Evans wrote:
>>Dear Horace,
>>
>>  the superconductors I used did not rotate either (they where stacked in a
>>pill bottle with a magnet between each superconductor ) and everything was
>>imerseded in L2.also this aperatus was sheiled by a 3/4 " thick particle
>>board( in other word i built an incloser all external forces where ruled
>>the top box held the balance beam and ratget  the lower box held the sc and
>>coil and L2  i did video tape this.  the wooden dowel was suspended from
>>the balance beam by a cotton thread the balance beam was a 1/4 " dowel 4
>>foot long
>>the 1' wooden dowel was supended by the thread from the balance beam and i
>>was not able to measure a reduction because on these trys the target dowel
>>which was suspended  had a motion induced in it (that of circling the outer
>>diamater of the superconductor)  the end closest to the super conducter
>>swung around the outside of the superconductorwhile the end that was
>>closest to the balance beam did not move very much and stayed above (in the
>>exclushun zone)..
>>
>>
>>
>>l_______________l
>>l  ____._____   l this section had the balance beam and was completly
enclosed
>>l  l          l l it was made out of 3/4 " particle board as was the bottom
>>for
>>l               l     a shield
>>l_______________l
>>l_______ll___[]_l  this section had the sc and coilther was a 3/4 " board
>>above it
>>
>>
>>hope this helps you understand     good work JOhn keep up the experiments
>>
>>Don Evans
>>
>>
>>
>>At 10:11 PM 12/16/97 -0900, you wrote:
>>>At 11:12 PM 12/16/97, John Schnurer wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>>        My YBCO is no rotating.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know, but Podkletnov's was.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  For example, this heat beam effect
>>>>> would cause Schnurer's balsa wood stick to rotate in the vortex of the
>>heat
>>>>> induced updraft from heat generated both on the shields below and on the
>>>>> balsa wood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        My stick is bamboo and does not rotate.  A piece of 1/4 glass and
>>>>grounded screening are interposed.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know about the glass and screen.  I think those could be both heated and
>>>breached by sufficiently short wavelength.   Also, if I recall correctly,
>>>these were simply laid on top of a three legged ring stand.  The sides were
>>>not covered.  Lots of prospect for air currents around the sides.
>>>
>>>Sorry about the balsa wood, that was someone else's experiment. My memory
>>>isn't so good these days.  The rotation thing is my mistake also, as that
>>>was Don Evans experiment:
>>>
>>>Begin quote from antigravity:
>>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>>At 4:00 PM 2/9/97, Don Evans wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>> hello anti gravers
>>>>
>>>> i just spent about eight hours of running test today and am frustrated
with
>>>>the results.  i only achieved a slight movement up and down on these runs.
>>>>i am using about a 12" x 3/4 " wooden dowel suspended over the
>>>>superconductor vertically  by a cotton thread to the balance beam these
are
>>>>quite heavy and make a 1/4 " dowel bend a little.   the effect that i kept
>>>>getting is that the dowel started moving in a circular motion and
seemed to
>>>>circle the edge of the htsc.
>>>>>any ideas to explain this motion.  the top of the dowel seemed to stay
>>>>centered but the bottom seemed to circle the edge of the htsc.  i
stacked as
>>>>many as 4 htsc disks and this seemed to intensify the motion with the
>>>>addition of each disk.   any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
>>>[snip]
>>>- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - -
>>>End Evans quote.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would cause lightening effects on a balance beam placed on
>>>>> the second floor above Potapov's lab.  It would cause the smoke blown
over
>>>>> Potapov's device to rise.  It could cause effects both above and
below the
>>>>> superconductor, or not, depending on the cause and geometry of the
stress.
>>>>> It could account for why Potapov's device showed more effect on
>>>>> decelleration - due to higher SC stress from breaking vs acceleration.
>>>>>
>>>>        There is no change below the rig.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've seen reports from others saying they saw effects underneath.  Don't
>>>recall where offhand.
>>>
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>        We film and no fogging.  We run GM counters... no reaction.
>>>>Radio wors fine, scope works fine.
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>OK, well, that does it then.  The main concern is covered.  There is no
>>>risk to the exerimenters.  You have already checked this out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Horace Heffner
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 20:10:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05467;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:06:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:06:19 -0800
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:00:52 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: CHRISTMAS] (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971217225907.27159F-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"kVC0m2.0.IL1.v4Acq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14000
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> 
>                   'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS
>                               (PROGRAMMER STYLE)
> 
> 'Twas the night before implementation and all through the house,
> Not a program was working, not even in browse.
> The programmers all hung by their tubes in despair
>  With hopes that a miracle soon would be there.
> 
> The users were nestled all snug in their beds,
>  While visions of inquiries danced in their heads.
> When out by the mainframes there arose such a clatter,
> I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
> 
> And what to my wondering eyes should appear,
> But a systems programmer, with a case of cold beer !
> His 'JCL' lustered, his "BAL" how it shimmered;
> And his "COMMAND CICS, oh how it glimmered.
> 
> His resume glowed with experience so rare,
> He turned out great code with a bit-pusher's flair.
> More rapid than eagles, his programs they came,
> And he whistled and shouted and called them by name.
> 
> Load update !  Add !  Inquiry !   Delete !
> All batch jobs !  File closings !  All functions complete !
> His eyes were glazed over, fingers nimble and lean,
> >From weekends and nights in front of a screen.
> 
> A wink of an eye and  a twist of his head,
> Soon let me know I had nothing to dread.
> He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work ,
> Turning spec's into code; this guy was no jerk.
> 
> As he haid his finger upon the 'ENTER' key,
> The system came up and worked perfectly.
> The updates updated;  the deletes, they deleted;
> The inquiries inquired, and file closings completed.
> 
> He tested each whistle,  and he tested each bell.
> With nary an 'Abend", all had gone well.
> The system was finished, the tests were concluded.
> With the the user's last changes included.
> 
> And the users exclaimed with a snarl and a taunt,
> 
> "It's just what I asked for, But not what I want  ! "
> ***************************************************************************
>                               *****
> ***************************************************************************
>                               *****
>                         ?TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS
>                               POLITICALLY CORRECT VERSION
> 
>                 Politically Correct Santa
> 
>       'Twas the night before Christmas and Santa's a wreck...
>       How to live in a world that's politically correct?
>       His workers no longer would answer to "Elves",
>       "Vertically Challenged" they were calling themselves.
> 
>       And labor conditions at the north pole
>       Were alleged by the union to stifle the soul.
>       Four reindeer had vanished, without much propriety,
>       Released to the wilds by the Humane Society.
> 
>       And equal employment had made it quite clear
>       That Santa had better not use just reindeer.
>       So Dancer and Donner, Comet and Cupid,
>       Were replaced with 4 pigs, and you know that looked stupid!
> 
>       The runners had been removed from his sleigh;
>       The ruts were termed dangerous by the E.P.A.
>       And people had started to call for the cops
>       When they heard sled noises on their roof-tops.
> 
>       Second-hand smoke from his pipe had his workers quite frightened.
>       His fur trimmed red suit was called "Unenlightened."
>       And to show you the strangeness of life's ebbs and flows,
>       Rudolf was suing over unauthorized use of his nose
> 
>       And had gone on Geraldo, in front of the nation,
>       Demanding millions in over-due compensation.
>       So, half of the reindeer were gone; and his wife,
>       Who suddenly said she'd enough of this life,
>       Joined a self-help group, packed, and left in a whiz,
>       Demanding from now on her title was Ms.
> 
>       And as for the gifts, why, he'd ne'er had a notion
>       That making a choice could cause so much commotion.
>       Nothing of leather, nothing of fur,
>       Which meant nothing for him. And nothing for her.
> 
>       Nothing that might be construed to pollute.
>       Nothing to aim. Nothing to shoot.
>       Nothing that clamored or made lots of noise.
>       Nothing for just girls. Or just for the boys.
>       Nothing that claimed to be gender specific.
>       Nothing that's warlike or non-pacific.
> 
>       No candy or sweets...they were bad for the tooth.
>       Nothing that seemed to embellish a truth.
>       And fairy tales, while not yet forbidden,
>       Were like Ken and Barbie, better off hidden.
> 
>       For they raised the hackles of those psychological
>       Who claimed the only good gift was one ecological.
>       No baseball, no football...someone could get hurt;
>       Besides, playing sports exposed kids to dirt.
> 
>       Dolls were said to be sexist, and should be passe;
>       And Nintendo would rot your entire brain away.
>       So Santa just stood there, disheveled, perplexed;
>       He just could not figure out what to do next.
> 
>       He tried to be merry, tried to be gay,
>       But you've got to be careful with that word today.
>       His sack was quite empty, limp to the ground;
>       Nothing fully acceptable was to be found.
> 
>       Something special was needed, a gift that he might
>       Give to all without angering the left or the right.
>       A gift that would satisfy, with no indecision,
>       Each group of people, every religion;
>       Every ethnicity, every hue,
>       Everyone, everywhere...even you.
> 
>       So here is that gift, it's price beyond worth...
> 
>       "May you and your loved ones enjoy peace on earth."
> 
>       Here is round 2
> 
>               'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS
>                                   TEXAS STYLE
> 
> 'Twas the night before Christmas, in Texas, you know.
> Way out on the prairie, without any snow.
> Asleep in their cabin, were Buddy and Sue,
> A dreamin' of Christmas, like me and you.
> 
> Not stockings, but boots, at the foot of their bed,
> For this was Texas, what more need be said,
> When all of a sudden, from out of the still night,
> There came such a ruckus, it gave me a fright.
> 
> And I saw 'cross the prairie, like a shot from a gun,
> A loaded up buckboard, come on at a run,
> The driver was "Geein" and  "Hawin", with a will,
> The horses (not reindeer) he drove with such skill.
> 
> "Come on there Buck, Poncho, & Prince, to the right,
> There'll be plenty of travelin' for you all tonight."
> The driver in Levi's and a shirt that was red,
> Had a ten-gallon Stetson on top of his head.
> 
> As he stepped from the buckboard, he was really a sight,
> With his beard and moustache, so curly and white.
> As he burst in the cabin, the children awoke,
> And were so astonished, that neither one spoke.
> 
> And he filled up their boots with such presents galore,
> That neither could think of a single thing more.
> When Buddy recovered the use of his jaws,
> He asked in a whisper, "are you really Santa Claus?"
> 
> "Am I the real Santa?  Well, what do you think?"
> And he smiled as he gave a mysterious wink.
> Then he leaped in his buckboard, and called back in his drawl,
> "To all the children in Texas, Merry Christmas, You-all."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 20:13:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06120;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:07:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:07:55 -0800
From: Chuck Davis <roshicorp ROSHI.com>
To: Mike Carrell <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:07:48 -0800
Message-ID: <yam7290.2439.18430208 mail.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <19971218035352463.AAA106 default>
X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck
Organization: ROSHI Corporation
Subject: Re: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"CSErP3.0.RV1.N6Acq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14001
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 17-Dec-97, Mike Carrell wrote:

>I once borrowed a strobe tachometer from work for her and left her to play
>with it while I went downstairs. A few minutes later I heard a thud and
>went upstairs to find her slumped on the floor, nearly unconscious. I
>helped her to bed, and after a rest, she was OK. She had a petite mal
>seizure, her only one. 

 Mike, it would've been interesting if you had noted at what frequency
 the strobe was set, when this happened.
-- 
    .-.                                                               .-.
   /   \           .-.                                 .-.           /   \
  /     \         /   \       .-.     _     .-.       /   \         /     \
-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\--
    RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \   /     \_/   `-'     \   /       \     /
           \   /         `-'                     `-'         \   /
            `-'                                               `-'
 http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 21:15:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15835;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:11:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:11:56 -0800
Message-Id: <01BD0BBF.808FAAC0 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp>
From: Melvin Miles <miles nhelab.iae.or.jp>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Cold Fusion Calorimetry
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:16:10 +-900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA15797
Resent-Message-ID: <"oMEi42.0.Et3.R2Bcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14002
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In Thermochimica Acta,Vol.297,pp.7-15(1997), Steve Jones shows in Fig.1 a short,fat cell that he labels as a "Schematic of Typical Cold Fusion Calorimeter".There is no serious researcher that I know of who uses such a ridiculous calorimetric design. Facts
 must be presented honestly if we hope to make progress in this difficult and controversial field.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 22:10:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23321;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:05:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:05:57 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971218010615.006ace58 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 01:06:15 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium 
In-Reply-To: <1e7d97eb.3498606b aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA23296
Resent-Message-ID: <"evSIo3.0.Ji5.4rBcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14003
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  At 06:29 PM 12/17/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote:

   regarding <<ZPE(vacuum) does NOT have similar confirmation.>>

>It was good enough for Willis Lamb to get the Nobel Prize with.  It's good
>enough to explain why liquid helium stays liquid at low temperatures.  It's
>good enough...............
>


  First, re: Hal's claim that Lamb used ZPE(vacuum) to "get the
Nobel Prize".

  The following text after this post is the actual
Nobel Prize award presentation from Physics 1955.

The Presentation Speech was made by Professor Wailer, a member of the 
Nobel Committee for Physics.

  When scanned for the words "zero" or "point" there are NO
references found.   "energy" is found and refers to the 
fine structure which Lamb's work revealed.  Much more is in
the reference.
   

  Second, re: helium liquidity at ultralow temperatures

   There are alternate conventional explanations for the fact that
helium remains liquid to absolute zero and both liquid, and are superfluid.
Many theories involve condensed matter physics, for example
Landau's Fermi liquid theory. Not to mention the conventional
zero point energy (ZPE(lattice)).


 
  In every calculation where the numbers and claims 
are reasonable, ZPE(vacuum) is extremely miniscule and fluctuating, 
and of a magnitude far less than any of the observed energies
in the above phenomena.

  Therefore, why is mere attribution of ZPE(vacuum) to helium fluidity, 
Lamb fine structure, the Potopov device, ultrasound,
cold fusion with Pd D2O, cold fusion with
nickel H2O, sonoluminescence, cavitation, Ken Shoulder's work,
the George-Stringham expt, light percolating through vacuum triggering 
solar cells, and even gravity   
   sufficient to prove any of them depend upon the purported
ZPE(vacuum), an energy whose magnitude is vanishingly small.


     Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


 =====================================================
Presentation Speech by Professor I. Wailer, member of the 
Nobel Committee for Physics

"Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, Ladies and Gentlemen. 

The Nobel Prize winners in Physics of this year were both employed shortly
before the war at the Physics Laboratory of Columbia University in New York.
Lamb was at first engaged in theoretical research and published several
important investigations in this field. Kusch was soon one of the most active
collaborators of Professor Rabi, when the latter worked out his resonance
method, for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics of 1944. In this
method the spectra of the atoms are studied by radio waves and the details
of the spectra can thereby be investigated much more accurately than before.
Kusch and Lamb participated during the war in the extensive work on radar
technique which was then being performed. Because of the great progress in
this
field the resonance method could be much improved. It was used by Kusch
and, in an essentially modified form, by Lamb when in 1947 they made their
great discoveries as leaders of two separate research groups. Not only were
the discoveries made independently of each other in the same laboratory and in
the same year, but it was also soon found that the explanation of both
phenomena is the same, namely the interaction of the electrons and the
electromagnetic
radiation. 

Lamb's discovery refers to the hydrogen atom, where one single electron
moves around the nucleus in one of a series of orbits, each having a
definite energy.
These energy levels exhibit a fine structure which means that they are
arranged in groups of neighbouring levels, the groups being widely
separated. An
explanation of the fine structure which for a long time was thought to be
correct, was given in 1928 by the English physicist Dirac, when he proposed
a theory
of the electron based on the requirements of the theory of relativity as
well as the quantum theory. 

Using optical methods many attempts were made during the next decade to
check the Dirac theory of the fine structure but no definite results were
obtained.
Some investigations made it probable, however, that the theory was not
entirely correct and the guess was made that there occur deviations which
are similar
to those later found by Lamb. 

Lamb was aware of the great importance that a careful check of the Dirac
theory would have. He began his experimental investigations of the fine
structure
shortly after the war. His technique was based on Rabi's resonance method
which had to be much modified, however. Lamb planned his difficult experiment
guided by a thorough theoretical analysis of the experimental arrangements. 

In 1947 his experiments were successful. He found that two fine structure
levels in the next lowest group which should coincide according to the
Dirac theory
are in reality shifted relative to each other by a certain amount which is
now called the Lamb shift. He succeeded in measuring this shift with great
accuracy
and later made similar measurements on heavy hydrogen. 

The discovery of Kusch refers directly to an important property of the
electron, namely its magnetic moment. It had been known since long that the
electron
is a small magnet. The strength of this magnet is measured by its moment.
The magnitude of the moment should be uniquely determined by the electron
theory
of Dirac, mentioned before. 

At the beginning of 1947 Rabi together with several collaborators found
that a property of the lowest hydrogen level (namely its so-called
hyperfine structure)
does not entirely conform with theory. It was suggested by the American
physicist Breit that the reason for this could be that the magnetic moment
of the
electron is somewhat different from the value assumed until then which is
called a Bohr magneton. 

Starting from this idea Kusch made a series of very careful investigations
and found in 1947 that the magnetic moment of the electron is larger than
the Bohr
magneton by about one part in a thousand. 

The effects discovered by Lamb and Kusch are exceedingly small. They were
revealed only with the help of a very refined technique. As has happened
before it was now found that the discovery of minute deviations from
existing theories can be offer-reaching importance. The discoveries of Lamb
and Kusch
resulted in a reshaping of the theory of the interaction of the electrons
and the electromagnetic radiation, the so-called quantum electrodynamucs. 

Lamb reported on his results at a physics meeting which was held in the
neighbourhood of New York in the early summer of 1947. Many prominent
theoretical physicists were present and among them Professor Kramers from
Holland, who died a few years ago. During the discussion it was made probable
that the Lamb shift could be explained using certain general ideas of
Kramers, the purpose of which was to improve the theories just mentioned. 

A rough estimate which agreed rather well with Lamb's measurements was soon
made and somewhat later Lamb himself and many others carried out more
accurate calculations. It was also found by Professor Schwinger at Harvard
University that the anomaly in the magnetic moment of the electron found by
Kusch could be similarly explained. In both cases the measurements as well
as the calculations have since been considerably improved and agree now very
well. 

Professor Willis Lamb. Professor Polykarp Kusch. Your discoveries which the
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences wishes to recognize on this occasion
have been made by applying radiohrequency spectroscopy of the highest
achievable precision to the study of the properties of the electron. Your
work is
marked not only by the beauty of your experiments but equally by the
profound significance of your results. It does not often happen that
experimental
discoveries exert an influence on physics as strong and invigorating as did
your work. Your discoveries led to a re-evaluation and a re-shaping of the
theory
of the interaction of electrons and electromagnetic radiation, thus
initiating a development of utmost importance to many of the basic concepts
of physics, a
development the end of which is not yet in sight. 

I now ask you to receive your Nobel Prize from the hands of His Majesty the
King."                                                           

  Copyrightİ 1997 The Nobel Foundation 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 22:46:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28836;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:40:50 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3498B769.7C90 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:40:57 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        sejones physics1.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov,
        g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac..jp, ceti@msn.com,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net,
        dennis wazoo.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, tchubb@aol.com,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        Bennett.MIller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu,
        jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, JNaudin509@aol.com, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        ceti_gcollins msn.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov,
        Lee_Hansen byu.edu, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com
Subject: Murray: Carrell and Rothwell re A&Z
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uv0ya2.0.N27.lLCcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14004
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 16, 1997

Dear all,    Here's part of a post to me from Mike Carrell today,
refering to my critiques of the long report by Arata and Zhang: [One
issue under discussion was whether Rothwell was right that I had lied
repeatedly by claiming that A&Z had used obsolete equipment.]:

Quotes from Murray's post:
" "These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded
calorimetry, are meaningless noise, readily achieved if the recombiner
catalyst is only partially effective. [Here is a blatant error on my
part, since recombination would only reduce any apparent excess power.]" 
--------------
[Murray: I agree that the tone is rather dismissive with regard to the
experiment, but is not directly a rude personal attack.  I still suspect
strongly that all the A&Z calorimeter results are "meaningless noise",
that is, the result of unknown artifacts, producing an apparent excess
heat of about 20% for months with many cathodes.

Scott Little has demonstrated with two calorimeters that simple designs
of flow calorimeters can indeed suffice to prove no excess heat with a
variety of different cells at power levels from .2 W to 170W, with about
1% accuracy.  His simple computer program allows the detailed history of
days of operation to be logged onto a hard disk, and on today's cheap $
1,000 180MHz Pentium, 1.6 GB hard drive computers, the very type I am
using right now, the Compac Presario 2200, years of data could be
logged.

So, the only real way to settle the debate is to run Arata's cathode in
Scott's calorimeter, and/or Mallove's.  I recall well that both groups
found zero excess heat with the Ragland cell, which last year was
reported to produce up to 500% excess heat for months, in a flow
calorimeter.  So, there is ample precedent for doubting the A&Z claims
of only about 20% excess heat for months, since there is no explanation
at all for the failure of the Ragland cell this year, a striking
negative result that to me supports the hypothesis that there exists an
nonnuclear, elusive artifact and probably artifacts of some potency in
all excess heat claims with flow calorimeters.  That is what I was
really driving at by the terms, "mediocre, completely out-moded
calorimetry": I am suggesting that the most conservative hypothesis is
that all flow calorimetry that yields mysterious excess heat is ipso
facto "mediocre, completely out-moded calorimetry", even more so when
the excess is only about 20%, far less than the months of impressive
claims by many competent scientists, including Dennis Cravens, for the
Ragland cell just a year ago.

Now, I have repeatedly called for disclosure of all details about the
A&Z calorimetry, including such fundamentals as actual input powers,
voltages, currents, and resistances, flow rates, actual in and out
temperatures, the composition and dimensions of the cell and the cooling
circuit, the number and timing of calibrations, any blank runs, the data
for all cathodes, the exact composition, mass, construction of the
cathodes, and more, without which no one can establish the competence of
the calorimetry.  I am not reassured when I am told that A&Z are highly
competent scientists, when this kind of detail, so easily provided, so
essential, is missing from the 56-page report, where the eminent Arata
presumably had limitless lien to present whatever he wanted,  hoping to
herald a radical, stunning scientific coup.   I hope to hear that they
are available and willing to communicate these details.

It is clear that Carrell and Rothwell do not share my concerns in the
least.  So, gentlemen, we have reached an impasse, a Mexican stand-off,
which only competent attempts at replication can resolve.]  End of long
comment by Murray.   

Continuing the comments by Mike Carrell:
"Now Jed may not have quoted the exact words, but Rich's own words are
of the same intent and meaning. In the last quote his misconceptions
about the effect of recombiner had already been corrected by Scott. Rich
has persisted until my last discussion in seeing only noise in the A&Z
data.  That failed [Murray: I never conceded this!], and he went on to
discuss Fig 9 in more temperate style, but equally off target, even
after I had told him that it has nothing to do with calorimetry.
[Murray: I don't understand how Fig.9 could have nothing to do with flow
calorimetry, when it clearly presents excess heat against time for 1600
hours in a flow calorimeter that was turned off and on three times.]  He
was, indeed, a bit dense [Murray: Blockheaded, actually.] about the
presumption that a massive power failure might have produced the
pressure variations. [Wait a second, here, Fig. 9 shows that the cathode
Pd-Black pressure dropped almost to zero on 2 of the 3 unexplained power
shut-offs.]"  End of quote from Mike Carrell, with comments added just
now by Rich Murray.

I call again on Jed Rothwell to make available all the details he has
culled from reading the Japanese language reports by A&Z.  Let us all
join in supporting a quick independent test of the excess heat
capabilities of the "double structure" cathodes, which, according to the
A&Z report, is a sure shot.  I will be very pleased indeed, if excess
heat is confirmed.  It would be a coup for the testing laboratory.

As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 17 23:36:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02138;
	Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:24:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:24:39 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:23:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712180723.XAA13780 denmark.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Kawai Motor Info Requested
Resent-Message-ID: <"DBy-V2.0.KX.r-Ccq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14005
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vorts:

Does anyone know the telephone or fax number of Teruo Kawai, inventor of ou
EM motor US Patent 5,436,518, or the assignee Nihon Riken Co., Ltd?  

A search of the internet did not produce anything.  Please send it directly
to my e-mail address if possible.  Checking to see the current market status
and licensing possibilities.  Thanks.

Regards,   Michael Randall


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 02:50:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21621;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:24:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:24:39 -0800
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <3498E9FD.7D0EE281 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:16:45 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Paul Brown
References: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com> <3497F255.125C@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FH0bk.0.lH5.ddFcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14006
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:
 
 "Gnorts!
 
  With regard to the unconfirmed report
  of the death of Dr. Paul Brown.
  He is apparently alive and well.
  I can't even trust that yet because I've not
  spoken to him direct.

  ... I'd rather report it as an error and find out
 Dr. Brown is truly still living, than have
 to stick with it as truth.
 
       Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com"

Hi Jerry,

This is good news!  How can I order books by
Dr. Brown?  I am especially interested in 
anything he has written on the difference
between gravitational and inertial mass.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 03:25:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18841;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:22:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:22:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3499234F.6E50 keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:21:19 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Paul Brown
References: <3.0.1.32.19971217081531.006a78a8 world.std.com> <3497F255.125C@keelynet.com> <3498E9FD.7D0EE281@mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nA9iR.0.Jc4.rTGcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14007
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Jack!

I spoke with Paul Wednesday afternoon, he said basically not to 
sweat it, someone is playing a game.....there is something strange going 
on that does not involve him....he prefers to remain low-key and is also 
puzzled why his name was picked...

We have since found out what happened, but have no idea of who is 
responsible...very strange.

As to books, I don't know where to buy them, you might try the 
International Tesla Society at; http://www.tesla.org

You might also do a search on the name and maybe 'nuclear resonant 
battery'...there was a patent on this and Paul said they once had a 30 
million dollar company listed on NASDAQ, which was destroyed by lawsuits 
and a hostile takeover.  At that time, he chose to bow out of energy 
research.  Happy Holidays!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 04:47:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25601;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:44:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:44:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <3499199C.BBC8ABAF compassnet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:39:56 -0600
From: "R. R. Stiffler" <stiffler compassnet.com>
Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mikec snip.net
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF SUBJECT] Mass epilepsy in Japan
References: <19971218035352463.AAA106 default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"R-vy7.0.vF6.agHcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14008
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> .
> There is speculation that any strong stimulus near the basic brain scanning
> frequency, 10-15 Hz, can upset susceptible individuals. There is some
> evidence that strong subsonic sound can do this also.
>

I remember back in school reading a number of articles from the late 40's to
early 50's about experiments using pulsed light as well as low freq EMF fields.
The study I remember most was of low level EM fields in coils in the floor and
ceilings of test rooms. The excitation  was LF in the 5-15hz range some at
20-30hz. The test subjects reported symptoms ranging from feeling sick to one
subject that became enraged and attacked his tester. If memory serves me
correct these tests were well documented.

Over the years I have tried to find this information again and have had no
luck, like I dreamed it standing next to a light bulb.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 05:01:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26783;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34991054.1AC2 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 06:00:20 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Perrault: Dr. Brown's " Death"
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"_ZoFw1.0.PY6.ouHcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14009
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust79.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.79])
	by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA27251;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:56:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34990FBD.4C8C earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:57:49 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Voftex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Perrault: Dr. Brown's " Death"
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.97.16.5!news.monad.net!not-for-mail
From: "Bruce A. Perreault" <nuenergy cyberportal.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Dr. Brown's Death
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:03:47 -0500
Organization: International Society for Integrated Science (ISIS)
Message-ID: <349805F3.214D cyberportal.net>
Reply-To: nuenergy cyberportal.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: plym2-pool-22.cyberportal.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)

For complete details:

http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/main.html



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 05:20:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10250;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:17:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 05:17:16 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A&Z, overview, footnote
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:56:00 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971218132043859.AAA113 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"AJW8L2.0.4W2.R9Icq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14010
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A footnote to Tom Stolper's thoughts about the process in the A&Z cell:

> It seems to me that only 1) and 3) have been proven and that even 1)
should
> be modified to read "Substantial excess energy is produced by deuterated
Pd
> running in a lithium hydroxide electrolyte."  The lithium  is probably a
> crucial part of the setup.
> 
> As for 2), what we have is a species of mass 4 and another species of
mass 3.
>  Neither Rich Murray nor Mike Carrell has claimed to be expert in mass
> spectroscopy.  Both have called for an expert in mass spectroscopy to
examine
> the A&Z paper.  The discussion of this vital aspect of the paper hasn't
been
> nearly as thorough as the discussion of excess heat.
> 
> As someone who thinks that Mills is right about the existence of 1/n
states
> of hydrogen, I'd be inclined to interpret the species of mass 4 as the
> dideuterino molecule and the species of mass 3 as tritium.  Mike, how do
you
> feel about that possibility?

I had replied that Mills is explicit about the conditions necessary for the
catalytic orbital collapse in hydrogen, and these conditions aren't
present, but that if catalytic orbital collapse can occur with hydrogen it
probably could occur with other atoms and we don't know enough to be
dogmatic. 

As a footnote, I'm not sure if Tom has the A&Z paper. A substantial portion
-- about half -- is devoted to developing a theory of how very localized
plasmas can arise in what Arata calls "lattice halls" wherein the real
action takes place. Peter Glueck has been insisting that the LENR are
catalytic phenomenon. In other words, there are highly localized regions
within the body of the cathode where there are gradients of some
unspecified character which enable the reactions. The essence of the A&Z
cell is a so-called "double structure" cathode. It is a sealed capsule of
Pd containing a quantity of finely divided Pd, or Pd black. It is in this
Pd dust, if you will, that the action takes place. Certainly in this Pd
dust one will find very large surfaces with gradients of almost anything
you might imagine which may facilitate the reaction. One factor of the
success of the Patterson cell is the large surface area presented by the
beads. 

One might further speculate that the success of the sonofusion process is
due to the hammering of the target by cavitation, which drives D2 atoms
into the target with considerable force, generating localized catalytic
conditions and pits that look as if they were caused by explosions within
the target material. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 08:10:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA32419;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:00:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:00:43 -0800
Message-Id: <3499421F.831297D3 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:32:47 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple hypothesis on gravity
References: <199712180039.QAA18327 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"UXBtW2.0.Sw7.fYKcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14011
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Ross and All,

I am saying that well known subatomic particles (electron, proton, neutron, muon. etc.) have its internal motions which create an energy flux inside. 

> And yes, even if the proton remains fixed in location, it is a highly
> energetic moving vibrating soliton wave structure.  So there is motion at
> absolute zero. 

Solitons or otherwise, I base by hypothesis to this intrinsic movements obviously carrying energy.

>>That is unless you are trying to say that the vast majority of the
gravitational interaction comes from electrons and not from the very much
heavier nuclei, at which point I think many experiments would simply show
that notion to be false.<<

Your opposition arose before, due you assumed that I base the source of gravity to the kinetic energy of the particles, not to their rest mass itself. I should say that I assume any particle which not show gravitational anomaly should have all its "mass e
quivalent energy" in motion. 

Explicitly, I claim that this intrinsic energy motion is the source of the gravity. Generalized, every energy flux is a source of the gravity. This can be in electromagnetic form or locked in a particle (but still in motion as oscillation, rotation or oth
er forms of motions) and also macroscopic movement of particles, atoms and bulk bodies. Special relativity already prove the mass of a moving body appears increased due to its kinetic energy. 

But what I am saying radically different from well known gravitational theories is the gravitational effect of individual energy flux should have vectorial form not a scalar as energy or mass density. When individual vectorial effects are cumulated at ran
dom inside a bulk mass, this vectorial form vanish and leave to statistical form something like noise and could be described as attraction between two bodies as Newton did.

This is the cause why my hypothesis is not applicable to Newtonian model and needs GR.

You say at absolute zero all motions cease, externally to atoms, electron orbitings, spins and magnetic moments of particle will disappears, everything will freeze. 

I am saying temperature have nothing with internal dynamic of particles.

For example temperature of a proton or neutron trapped in a box (they recently able to slow down such particles in special bottles at few cm/sec.) is defined its velocity.
If you stop it it is at zero temperature but its internal dynamic does will not be affected.

Actually kinetic energy of atoms and nuclei's are very small respect to their rest masses unless they move at relativistic velocities. Of course this kinetic energy will also increase they masses and gravitational forces exactly defined by Lorentz equatio
ns of special relativity.

Interestingly, I see my hypothesis could be extraced simply from special relatity:

When a mass is motion respect to frame of reference, its mass appers incresed only in the direction of the motion which automatically show the vectorial property of the mass  and inertia. (Please confirm this)

As the mass increase on one direction, gravitation induced by this body have also vectorial property. I think these results can be easyly obtained from SR and GR equations.

As a result I am saying additional to relativity is gravitation induced by the rest mass also have essentially vectorial property but appears scalar due to statistical cummulations of effects of energy fluxs on every directions.

When this randomless or isotopic distrubution is decreased by coherent movements, microscopically inside Bose-Einstein condensates or by bulk motions of bodies(on SR context), operation on gravity or obtaining other form of gravity effects could be obtain
ed.

Your hypotesis is going into details to descibe the mechanism of the gravity. Instead I am thinking on principles and basic properties of gravity. Unless I did not wrote my equations, detail mechanism could not make much sense I think.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 08:14:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15976;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:06:44 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226
Message-Id: <v03020900b0bef6b9a68c [128.183.200.195]>
In-Reply-To: <53f7ba49.34983c7d aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:05:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re:  TT Brown stuff on Discovery
Resent-Message-ID: <"m6zkH.0.Gv3.EeKcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14012
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>In a message dated 12/17/97 5:11:41 PM, Wharton wrote:
>
><<I was surprised to see that the Air Force has an
>antigravity research project with an investigator doing T. Townsend Brown
>antigravity experiments.>>
>
>Was this the 1991 Talley study done for Edwards AFB's Phillips Lab out of
>Veritay Technology, or something newer?
>
>Hal Puthoff

  I don't know, I wasn't paying that close attention and I turned it on
after the program was half over.  I would guess that they will be showing
it again shortly.  It was apparent that the program was new as it had some
stuff from NASA's alternative propulsion program which is a new program.


Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 08:51:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22049;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971218104159.00a0dd00 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:41:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: A&Z details
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"61HRg2.0.QO5.tBLcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14013
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm trying to understand the "Solid-State Plasma Fusion" paper by A&Z 1996.

The authors do not include a detailed description of their
apparatus...perhaps because it was described in their previous paper "A New
Energy Caused by Spillover-Deuterium" A&Z 1994.

If you have a copy of this previous paper, please extract and post physical
details of the apparatus.  I am interested in dimensions of the Pd can
which surrounds the Pd black, dimensions of the electrolysis cell, typical
voltage and current levels, cooling water flow rates, etc. etc. etc.

The main reason for asking for this background information is my
astonishment at their typical cell operating power: 120-150 watts!!!  I
would like to find out what kind of cathode current densities they are
running, what the i^2R losses in the electrolyte are, etc.

I would also like to do some stress calculations on their Pd can.  They
mention observing distortions of the can in some cases.  I would just like
to see if that observation is consistent with their reported/estimated
pressure levels.

Thanks




Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 09:55:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17874;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:47:37 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:47:37 -0800
Message-ID: <34997DBE.2729 keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:47:10 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Perrault: Dr. Brown's " Death"
References: <34991054.1AC2 earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"D810i1.0.4N4.t6Mcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14014
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

This is to explain the weirdness about Dr. Brown's false death report.  
>From what I have been able to discover.  The sooner the entire matter is 
dropped and forgotten, the better.  It is a complete waste of bandwidth 
and personal time that could better be devoted to useful pursuits.

With regard to the Perrault posting, there is much that is unsaid.

For the record, there is a tremendous personal disagreement between John 
Moreland and Bruce Perrault.

Someone randomly picked me from a list of f/e websites and Brown from a 
list of potential inventors.  The target was Bruce Perrault though Dennis 
Lee and Searl are also specifically mentioned.

They then composed a completely bogus and fake letter, with nothing in it 
true.  That was the RonDandy letter that I trusted in based on the amount 
of information and the claim this Rondandy person was working with the 
Brown family and estate.

I have been in voice and email communication with Paul.  He understands 
what happened and said not to sweat it.  Someone with a hackers knowledge 
has a personal axe to grind and we were all used to try to get a point 
across.  I will not post the 'confession' nor proofs from this currently 
unidentified person since it would only add to the pile of manure that 
has accumulated from it.

Paul explained that since the legal wrangles and the hostile takeover of 
his 30 million dollar, NASDAQ listed company several years ago, he has 
chosen to remove himself from the public eye and wishes to return to 
the low profile status he enjoyed before this bogus email.

We had a very pleasant voice discussion and I have also been in email 
communication with John Moreland and Bruce Perrault.  The single best 
thing that can be done by all, is to realize this was all a game played 
by a hacker. None of it has any factual basis and is no longer worth 
discussing.

I plan to remove all reference to it on my website by this weekend and 
have asked Bruce to do the same, since it simply inflames with no 
positive benefit. It is all irrelevant once you know that we have all 
been 'played'.  Thanks for any concerns, no more weirdness like this in 
1998....and Happy Holidays to all!!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 10:45:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28854;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:40:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:40:49 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:40:42 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: hoax perpetrator
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971218102907.10516F-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"l_CtO2.0.g27.kuMcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14015
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


I received a message claiming to be from the perpetrator of the Dr. Brown
hoax.

If this person acted respectably, I'd post his message here.  His stated
goal is to expose free enegy frauds.  But in my opinion his main goal
seems to be to draw attention to himself, to strut before a large
audience, therefor I refuse to give him too much help in his attempt.

Those who REALLY want to read the message can see it on vortex-L web page,
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html, just below the lists of
archives.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 10:48:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29096;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:41:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:41:41 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <73c372bb.3499694d aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:19:55 EST
To: mica world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"FTDFn1.0.W67.ZvMcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14016
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/18/97 6:47:23 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<< First, re: Hal's claim that Lamb used ZPE(vacuum) to "get the

Nobel Prize".>>   (followed by quotes from the Nobel award speech from which
Mitchell inferred that ZPE was not mentioned)

The operant phrase in the speech is in the following sentence:

"... The discoveries of Lamb and Kusch resulted in a reshaping of the theory
of the interaction of the electrons and the electromagnetic radiation, the so-
called quantum electrodynamics....."

The EM radiation referred to is the ZPE of the quantum vacuum.

With regard to our ongoing discussion as to the reality of the ZPE, I
recommend the paper P. Milonni et al., "Radiation pressure from the vacuum:
Physical interpretation of the Casimir force," Phys Rev A, vol 38, p. 1621,
1988.  It is one of the clearer presentations in which the vacuum ZPE EM
fields are assumed to be real and the radiation pressure associated with the
Poynting vector of those fields is used to calculate the unbalanced transfer
of momentum to the plates due to the ZPE fields reflecting off them.  Couldn't
be clearer.

Otherwise, one can go back to the original papers by, e.g., Welton, in which
the Lamb shift is calculated on the basis of the hydrogen atom's orbiting
electron interacting with the ZPE.  The startoff quote in Welton's paper is
"Our starting point is the observation that the quantum-mechanical zero-point
variation of the radiation field in empty space gives rise to fluctuating
electric and magnetic fields whose mean square values at a point in space are
given by......"  (see T. A. Welton, "Some observable effects of the quantum-
mechanical fluctuations of the electromagnetic field," Phys Rev, vol 74, p.
1157, 1948). 

An excellent primer on the vacuum ZPE is the article by T. Boyer in the August
1985 issue of Scientific American, "The Classical Vacuum."

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 11:18:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06376;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:13:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:13:20 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19971218111307.2b4fa7ee ap.net>
X-Sender: mjs ap.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (16)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:13:07
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Michael J. Shambrook" <mjs ap.net>
Subject: Re: Kawai Motor Info Requested
In-Reply-To: <199712180723.XAA13780 denmark.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"YPmVk1.0.WZ1.DNNcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14017
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:23 PM 12/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Vorts:
>
>Does anyone know the telephone or fax number of Teruo Kawai, inventor of ou
>EM motor US Patent 5,436,518, or the assignee Nihon Riken Co., Ltd?  
>
>A search of the internet did not produce anything.  Please send it directly
>to my e-mail address if possible.  Checking to see the current market status
>and licensing possibilities.  Thanks.
>
>Regards,   Michael Randall
>
>We were in touch with Kawai and discovered his patent revealed an error he
did not originally understand.  His motor is not, and has never been, over
unity.  He now knows this and no longer remains in contact.  Mark Goldes,
CEO, Magnetic Power Inc.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 12:12:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18648;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:03:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:03:19 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:46:44 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Thanks from Arthur Clarke
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712181449_MC2-2C70-EED1 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ko8GX1.0.CZ4.26Ocq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14018
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

I sent Arthur C. Clarke messages from this forum wishing him happy birthday.
He sent out this response thanking everyone. He is such a nice guy!

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear Friends,

Thank you very much for the messages of greetings and good wishes sent over
the past few days.

As you might have heard, I went into hiding  last weekend with the Ekanayake
family, and spent a most enjoyable birthday at the serene and spectacular
settings of the Kandalama hotel in north-central Sri Lanka. Sigiri
(see FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE) is visible across the lake, but I didn't visit
this time being determined to relax completely...

I have just got back to Colombo to find over 50 e-mails and faxes and 100
cards, as well as several weeks of reading/listening/viewing material. So
please consider this merely an acknowledgement of your good wishes -- if
your message requires any specific responses, I'll try and deal with it just
after Christmas....well, by the New Year.....well, sometime in 1998...

      All the best for the Season from beleaguered but still beautiful Sri
Lanka.

             Arthur Clarke
             18 Dec 97

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 12:25:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24945;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:20:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:20:51 -0800
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:46:54 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: hoax perpetrator
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712181450_MC2-27B6-5A71 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"K5nTr2.0.g56.XMOcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14019
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Bill Beaty says the hoax perpetrator "stated goal is to expose free enegy
frauds." It was grim practical joke but that statement is hilarious. How
do you expose people by claiming they are dead?!?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 12:40:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24765;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:32:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:32:24 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:31:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace" (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971219061506.12599q-100000 liszt.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971218120545.23048D-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"vK8-_.0.q26.LXOcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14020
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Martin Sevior wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:54:45 -0800
> From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Re Greg W. and "Greenpeace"
>
> John Logajan wrote (thus demonstrating how it seems to be impossible to
> get through to those who will not see):
>

I could make exactly the same statement about people in the Environmental
Community. I posted specific examples about why economic growth in poor
countries is good for the environment and instead I get a diatribe about how
Jersey has environmental problems associated with being too wealthy. To me
this just illustrates the the obvious point that people with lots of money
can afford to worry about the environment. People without cannot. You don't
have to worry about your job and feeding your children. Most people in most
countries do. The best way to achieve a stable global environment is to get
the rest of world wealthy.

> Seriously though it seems impossible to me that this ridiculous "we know
> better than environmentalists" attitude persists. In America I suspect
> it is because the level of propaganda and weird and twisted argument that
> you get from your media and news channels is so all pervasive.

Yes but it is the environmentalits who twist and manipulate the media.
Greenpeace and others blockade timber harvesting (in an attempt to get media
coverage), scream to rediculus loudness about nuclear power (the obvious way
to reduce pollution and global warming), overplay Global Warming (the sound
bites from the environmentalists made me cringe), and have killed the
Newfoundland sealing industry for no good environmental reason, but for the
political milage thus obtained.

Advocates of negative economic growth? Prince Philip and David Suzuki (host
of a weekly Canadian show about nature and Professor of Gentics at UBC)
spring to mind. Both people who have no worries about their own employment.

I think the dangers of not obtaining global economic growth FAR FAR outway
the small chance that the economic growth cannot be maintained in an
environmentally sustainable way.

> America
> was regarded as a pariah at the recent climate negotiations at Kyoto
> because of the appallingly greedy and selfish position that it took.
>

Oh? I thought it was Australia. We get to INCREASE C02 by 8% from 1990
levels. That's what our local enviros were telling us.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 12:43:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA30115;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:35:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:35:12 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971218153529.006adbd4 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:35:29 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Cc: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <73c372bb.3499694d aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"BVwEm.0.FM7.zZOcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14021
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 01:19 PM 12/18/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote, after
Hal claimed that Lamb used ZPE(vacuum) to "get the
Nobel Prize":

 >> "Mitchell inferred that ZPE was not mentioned"

  ZPE(vacuum) was not mentioned in what was cited, or in the
main literature deriving from that physical matter.
 Nor does ZPE(vacuum) appear to be
involved in either the classical or quantum mechanical
derivations of the optical electronic equations.

  Based upon the literature, and the derivations
of the shift itself, it is not clear how ZPE(*)
has anything to do with the quantum optics of this matter,
 or with the electromagnetic
radiation as considered in the quantum optical derivation of the
natural width, and shift, of the emission line, or from the
classical deriviation (see below).

 { ( *  ) Sometimes use ZPE(vacuum) to distinguish this
putative vanishingly small energy from the real zero
point energy of lattices. Here, and elsewhere, ZPE is 
ZPE(v).   }



 ====== On the Derivation of the Lamb Shift  ========

  Electromagnetic radiation (which is not ZPE(v))
can attenuate, and can shift energy levels of a system.
For a single atom this is shift of energy levels is 
called the Lamb Shift.

  Classical calculation can generate it by considering
that during emission of radiation, that the charge is 
blurred over the volume of the system.
One seriously interesting in this should read

  Quantum Electronics (V. M Fain and YA. Khanin) MIT Press (1969)
 and H. A. Bethe, Phys. Rev 72, 339 (1947) on the matter itself.

  
  The shifts are determined from the equations of motion involving
the magnetic moment in the magnetic field of the EM radiation.  

  The derived shift is:

   4 omega(m) * (omega(o))^2 * gamma * Mz / (3 pi c^3)

   where omega(m) is c/l  and l is the order of the radius of the system
    gamma is the gyromagnetic ratio, and
    Mz is the z- orientation of the magnetic moment.


  The shift (and the natural line width) can also be
calculated in a quantum mechanical sense as they result from 
the interaction of the atom with the eigenfield of the
electromagnetic radiation.

  ZPE(vacuum) is not in the equation.

 ================================================

 Hal Puthoff says:
>The operant phrase in the speech is in the following sentence:
>"... The discoveries of Lamb and Kusch resulted in a reshaping of the theory
>of the interaction of the electrons and the electromagnetic radiation, the
so-
>called quantum electrodynamics....."
>

  With all due respect, the claim involved stated that

  "Lamb used ZPE(vacuum) to "get the Nobel Prize"
    [H.Puthoff]

  so therefore the operant sentence would be:

"Lamb's discovery refers to the hydrogen atom, where one single 
electron moves around the nucleus in one of a series of orbits, 
each having a definite energy.
These energy levels exhibit a fine structure which means that 
they are arranged in groups of neighbouring levels, the groups 
being widely separated. An
explanation of the fine structure which for a long time was 
thought to be correct, was given in 1928 by the English physicist 
Dirac, when he proposed a theory
of the electron based on the requirements of the theory of relativity
as well as the quantum theory. 
Using optical methods many attempts were made during the next 
decade to check the Dirac theory of the fine structure but no 
definite results were obtained.
Some investigations made it probable, however, that the theory 
was not entirely correct and the guess was made that there occur
deviations which are similar to those later found by Lamb."
[Professor I. Wailer, member of the Nobel Committee for Physics]

  The physics is described above, and in the cited refs.

 ================================================

 Hal Puthoff says:
>"The EM radiation referred to is the ZPE of the quantum vacuum."


  No.  Electromagnetic radiation is ordinary, "garden variety",
electromagnetic radiation.  It may exist in a "vacuum" 
or in a theoretical (gendanken) vacuum.  The classical 
description is above, and the quantum mechanical ref is above.

 It obviously is NOT the purported ZPE(vacuum) because
 its magnitude can be quite large, and in contrast the 
purported ZPE(v) is vanishingly small.


  Could someone clearly and fully explain what a 
"quantum vacuum" is.

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 12:50:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27979;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:41:36 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:40:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Greg Watson.
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971218123118.23048E-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"4jjWG1.0.1r6.zfOcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14022
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

It was just as well Greg did not contact me while back in oz. I would have
had no time to visit as it turned out.

It is my opinion that he never had a closed loop SMOT but instead thought he
would get one "Real Soon Now". I'd love to be proved wrong.

I suspect all other claims of roll-away were the result of poor measurement
of entrence and exit heights.

Prove me wrong Steve!

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 14:05:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19737;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:59:49 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:59:49 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A&Z details
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:43:44 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971218220222654.AAA68 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"TZUKb2.0.Aq4.GpPcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14023
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott, I have only the A&Z paper which you have. 

Jed may have other material. They have reported at some of the ICCFs, there
may be more information there. You might ask Russ George, who mentioned
that he saw  cathode about 1 cm dia and 10 cm long, which is not the form
factor indicated in Fig 5. 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 15:04:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02702;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:46:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 14:46:38 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <1fa72163.3499a134 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:18:26 EST
To: mica world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"0p7w72.0.qf.BVQcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14024
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/18/97 8:42:24 PM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<{ ( *  ) Sometimes use ZPE(vacuum) to distinguish this
putative vanishingly small energy from the real zero
point energy of lattices. >>

We've obviously reached the point of diminishing returns on our ZPE
discussion.  You (Mitchell) would like to say that there is a difference
between the "real" ZPE of lattice vibrations and the "vanishingly small" ZPE
of the vacuum EM radiation fields.  The fact of the matter is that in both
cases, and for exactly the same reasons, and with precisely the same
magnitude, the ZPE is that associated with quantized harmonic oscillators,
whether they be lattice vibrational harmonic oscillators, or orthogonal mode
EM field harmonic oscillators - the math does not care.  

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 15:30:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10801;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:25:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:25:37 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <9cd6c193.3499ac8f aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:06:53 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: force/gravity
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"9PU-B3.0.he2.l3Rcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14025
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Puthoff writes

The ZPE model of gravity proposes just this solution, with the gravitational
mass simply being the kinetic energy of ZPE-driven random motion of the
constituent quarks, the grav interaction being a sort of long-range van der
Waals force associated with this random motion, etc.

......................................................

I like this ides.  It follows, if mattter is always in motion with random
kinetic energy it should fling apart.  How is it held together?   One
convention is that an infinite number of waves with different frequencies
(wave numbers) are superimposed upon each other to produce a wave packet.
Yuck!   I think this stinks!  This solution requires an infinity in a finite
universe.  Another idea is that the matter's motion is confined within a
square well or a harmonic well.  I like this much.  What holds the matter in
the well?  Of course,  the answer is a force.  This force produces the
gravitational field of matter.

gravity = G(force)/ccr = G(dp/dt)/ccr

Puthoff and I do agree on many issues.  A detatailed analysis of the outward
forces in matter is posted at.
This model predicts near field gravitational components.  The rotation of
which produces a gravitomagnetic field.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/physrev.txt">The Source of
Inertial and Grav. Mass</A>

PS I passed my college courses this term again.  I may go on and get a master
degree in science.  

Frank Znidarsic 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 15:54:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13452;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:49:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:49:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971218184832.006ad314 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:48:32 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Cc: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <1fa72163.3499a134 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"tRmqB2.0.4I3.iPRcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14026
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 05:18 PM 12/18/97 EST, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 12/18/97 8:42:24 PM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
><<{ ( *  ) Sometimes use ZPE(vacuum) to distinguish this
>putative vanishingly small energy from the real zero
>point energy of lattices. >>
>
>We've obviously reached the point of diminishing returns on our ZPE
>discussion.  You (Mitchell) would like to say that there is a difference
>between the "real" ZPE of lattice vibrations and the "vanishingly small" ZPE
>of the vacuum EM radiation fields.  The fact of the matter is that in both
>cases, and for exactly the same reasons, and with precisely the same
>magnitude, the ZPE is that associated with quantized harmonic oscillators,
>whether they be lattice vibrational harmonic oscillators, or orthogonal mode
>EM field harmonic oscillators - the math does not care.  
>
>Best regards,
>Hal Puthoff 
>
>

  The mathematics should care in a serious model.


  ZPE-lattice is real and a function of the physically
present lattice.  The phonons are real.  In fact,
in hydrided palladium, there are BOTH optical and
acoustic spectra.

  ZPE-vacuum is hypothesized and related to the
uncertainty principle, and is vanishingly small,
and of no net consequence.

  They are NOT of the same magnitude, except when
you (Hal) want to multiply the vanishingly
small amount by a non-physical number larger than
the entire number of atoms in the universe. It is
not clear why that is appropriate, or how 
- given special relativity and causality - it
would all come out correct.  In fact, it seems like
a step backwards to Ptolemy.


  One would think the seriousness would depend
precisely upon the math.


  BTW the "diminishing returns" seems to infer that
you (Hal) will not go on to clearly explain in reasonably 
simple terms exactly why you would multiply the vanishingly
small number by a density greater than the known universe,
and then assume that such a pseudo-googleplex-density
exists in each cm^3 of vacuum, only to make it fit.
Seems a stretch, and thus, would seem like an important
theoretical hurdle for ZPE(vacuum) if it is to 
receive the respectability that ZPE(lattice) has.

  Best wishes.

    Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 18:53:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25775;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:47:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:47:53 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <f8f050f6.3499dc9a aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:31:52 EST
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A&Z, overview
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"AfCva.0.XI6.M1Ucq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14027
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-17 23:05:45 EST, you write:

Tom Stolper writes:
<<  As someone who thinks that Mills is right about the 
<<existence of 1/n states of hydrogen, I'd be inclined to 
<<interpret the species of mass 4 as the dideuterino 
<<molecule and the species of mass 3 as tritium.  
<<Mike, how do you feel about that possibility?

>Mike Carrell replies:
>I'm on your side of the fence about Mills. However, he is 
>specific about the catalytic process that produces hydrinos,
> and that process is not present in the A&Z equipment. 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mike,
Maybe not.....but here is a quote from Professor Farrell
made to SPF  on 4 November 1991 at 21:47:47 GMT
that may be of interest:

Experimental methods snipped......
==============begin quote=====================

"OTHER POSSIBLE SYSTEMS
Thousands of otheer systems are possible. Unfortunately,
most of these are ions or ion combinations that are difficult
or impossible to make.  We have tried many of the chemically
reasonable ones and the K+ system works best.
PD2+/ LI+ works, but not as well. Note PD2+,  not PD metal.
We believe that to the extent that PD/LI+ works, it is PD2+
on or near the surface of the PD that is the active species.
RB+ works, but not as well. LI+, NA+, CS+ do not work.
TI2+ does work.  Here again, to the extent that TI /  D2 
gives neutrons, we believe that the active species is 
TI2+.   (whenever neutrons are given off, enormous
amounts of heat are given off as well.  The heat does
not come from the fusion itself but from the shrinkage
of the H atoms or D atoms to a size sufficiently small
that fusion can occur.  As far as we can tell, only
an extremely small fraction of the atoms shrink 
sufficiently for fusion to occur.)

John Farrell
Franklin  &  Marshall  College"
===============   end   quote================
  
Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 18:59:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26876;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:56:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:56:00 -0800
Message-ID: <3499D341.7FB3 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:52:01 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Britz: considering CF calorimetry
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"G7bdS3.0.nZ6._8Ucq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14028
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!newsfeed.qnet.com!news.he.net!newsfeed.gte.net!newsfeed.gte.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz nospam.har.har>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Testing CF Calorimetry
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:00:10 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971218144645.12168A-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <199712171522.KAA125771 pilot17.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <199712171522.KAA125771 pilot17.cl.msu.edu>

On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Richard A Blue wrote:

> Dieter Britz suggests:
> 
> "So what you are saying, Dick, is a priori that excess heat
> can't happen, so the measurements, no matter how they are
> done, are wrong."
> 
> No, Dieter, that is not what I am saying at all!  So even
> when I tone down my rhetoric and try to be as mild and
> polite as possible it appears to be very difficult to bring
> into this discussion the mere hint that possibly calorimetric
> measurements are subject to error.

Sorry, Dick, for maybe going a bit far with my devil's advocate act. It
seemed to me that you were rejecting the validity of all excess heat claims
and I say you can't do that. You can privately assume that there is probably
an error in each and every one of those claims, because it is easier to
assume that than to believe in excess heat - and I would tend to go along with
that. But I can't prove it, so I have to just leave it alone, except in those
cases where I am able to point to a particular error.. I think we skeptics do
go too far sometimes in making positive assertions about such work, when in
fact we don't know. It's easy to reject a work like Oyama et al, who clearly
selected a few tops of a noisy trace, and called these tops excess heats.
But I can't see what's wrong with, e.g., the heat bursts of F&P, or the work
of McKubre, who was pretty thorough, or even with the one-off result of
Huggins et al (two papers but one result), or - given the lack of detail -
the excess heat (& He) claims) of A&Z. I just have to say I don't know.

[...]
> measurements by Droege, Little, Green, and many others that
> fail to replicate a wide assortment of CF claims based on
> calorimetry alone.  You know that literature better than do I,
> Dieter, so what do you make of it?  Is calorimetry perfect or
> is it possible to screw it up?

Sure, people screw up, and most of them probably have - I just can't tell
where. It does seem suspicious that when competent people have an honest go
at it, they tend to get a quality zero, like the above trio. But as I say,
I think McKubre was just as competent and careful, and got excess heat, or
thought he did.

Basically, what I am about in this is for us skeptics to be less dogmatic
about claims, and dismiss them only if we can back up the dismissal. It's
not good enough to say it can't be, therefore it isn't. We can be dogmatic
about some things, though, like the laws of thermo, electrostatics etc, all
well tested stuff that doesn't need proving every time it is invoked.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 19:12:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28154;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:04:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:04:29 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:20:24 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Re: Dr. Paul Brown] (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971218181930.10516O-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"GSumA2.0.Yt6.uGUcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14029
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Forwarded msg from Dr. Brown...

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:13:35 -0800 (PST)
From: isotoper usa.net
To: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Re: Dr. Paul Brown]

vortex-l-request eskimo.com wrote:
>> Jerry wrote:
>>  
>>  "Gnorts!
>>  
>>   With regard to the unconfirmed report
>>   of the death of Dr. Paul Brown.
>>   He is apparently alive and well.
>>   I can't even trust that yet because I've not
>>   spoken to him direct.
>> 
>>   ... I'd rather report it as an error and find out
>>  Dr. Brown is truly still living, than have
>>  to stick with it as truth.
>>  
>>        Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com"
>> 
>> Hi Jerry,
>> 
>> This is good news!  How can I order books by
>> Dr. Brown?  I am especially interested in 
>> anything he has written on the difference
>> between gravitational and inertial mass.
>> 
>> Jack Smith

My books are not available for sale at this time. Possibly, after this Ron
Dandy thing settles down, my publisher shall resume selling these books.
Regarding the inertial-gravitational mass, go to, Infinite Energy
Magazine, Vol 3, No.13&14, page52,53, published by Eugene Mallove and Cold
Fusion Technology. 
____________________________________________________________________ Get
free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 19:34:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14209;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:30:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <34c14610.3499e399 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:01:43 EST
To: mica world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: Puthoff aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ug7DH3.0.xT3.ffUcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14030
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/19/97 1:45:02 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<BTW the "diminishing returns" seems to infer that
you (Hal) will not go on to clearly explain in reasonably 
simple terms exactly why you would multiply the vanishingly
small number by a density greater than the known universe,
and then assume that such a pseudo-googleplex-density
exists in each cm^3 of vacuum, only to make it fit.
Seems a stretch, and thus, would seem like an important
theoretical hurdle for ZPE(vacuum) if it is to 
receive the respectability that ZPE(lattice) has.>>

Mitchell, it is not "my" calculation.  It appears in every QED text.  It was
worked out before I was old enough to go to grammer school.  

The calculation is straightforward.  Take an EM field in a cavity  (The
universe is just a big cavity as a special case.)  Decompose it into a
complete set of orthogonal modes (standing waves or propagating waves, your
choice).  Quantize them.  Assign (h-bar X omega)/2 energy to each mode in
accordance with the uncertainty principle.  Multiply by the mode density (nr
of modes per unit frequency interval per unit volume that satisfy the boundary
conditions, (omega^2/pi^2 X c^3).  You now have the energy per unit frequency
interval per unit volume rho = (h-bar X omega^3)/2 X pi^2 X c^3.  

This is not just my formula; it is everyone's formula. Any derivation of
Planck's formula that includes consideration of the vacuum fluctuations has
two terms; the term due to a thermal spectrum at some temperature T, and a
second term that remains even as T goes to zero.  It is the term I derived
above.  That is why it is called the zero-point energy term, because it
remains as T goes to zero.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 21:03:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23629;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:59:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:59:43 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <rmforall earthlink.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Carrell and Rothwell re A&Z
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:57:23 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971219050202120.AAA70 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"xeqET3.0.7n5.zyVcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14031
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rich is using interesting logic. He says:

> I still suspect
> strongly that all the A&Z calorimeter results are "meaningless noise",
> that is, the result of unknown artifacts, producing an apparent excess
> heat of about 20% for months with many cathodes.
>
> Scott Little has demonstrated with two calorimeters that simple designs
> of flow calorimeters can indeed suffice to prove no excess heat with a
> variety of different cells at power levels from .2 W to 170W, with about
> 1% accuracy.  His simple computer program allows the detailed history of
> days of operation to be logged onto a hard disk, and on today's cheap $
> 1,000 180MHz Pentium, 1.6 GB hard drive computers, the very type I am
> using right now, the Compac Presario 2200, years of data could be
> logged.
>
> So, the only real way to settle the debate is to run Arata's cathode in
> Scott's calorimeter, and/or Mallove's. I recall well that both groups
> found zero excess heat with the Ragland cell, which last year was
> reported to produce up to 500% excess heat for months, in a flow
> calorimeter.  So, there is ample precedent for doubting the A&Z claims
> of only about 20% excess heat for months, since there is no explanation
> at all for the failure of the Ragland cell this year, a striking
> negative result that to me supports the hypothesis that there exists an
> nonnuclear, elusive artifact and probably artifacts of some potency in
> all excess heat claims with flow calorimeters.  

Let's go over this carefully.
1) Little has demonstrated that simple designs of flow calorimeters
"can...suffice to prove no excess heat..."
2) So Little's flow calorimeters must be OK. 
3) Little and Mallove found no excess heat in Ragland cells, which
reportedly gave substantial excess heat for months.
4) Therefore there is something wrong with all excess heat claims with flow
calorimeters. 

What is missing from this reasoning is that
a) Ragland tested and reported on his own cell
b) A cell purchased by Mallove from Ragland did not give excess heat. This
was not the same cell as a)
c) Little built his own cell after Ragland's pattern. It was not a cell
built by Ragland
d) Nothing has been heard from Ragland for a while

This fits the general pattern that cathodes are tricky. Ragland thought he
had a strategy to excite the LENR in "non-special" cathodes. Apparently
this hasn't worked. Flow calorimetry worked in Mallove's and Little's
hands. The cells were dead, and the measurements showed them dead, without
any "artifacts"

Now what about A&Z? Let's again look at the facts carefully.

1) A&Z build a calorimeter and test it with electrolysis using a Pt anode
and Pt cathode. It shows a variation of +1, -2 W, average -0.7 W, over the
operating range. There is a net loss of heat, clearly no artifacts, it is a
'good' cell, no? 
2) An Arata DS cathode (Pd capsule containing Pd black) is substituted for
the Pt cathode in the calorimeter. This is the only change.
3) Suddenly "artifacts" appear. Over 5 watts of excess power is produced
for thousands of hours. Integrated energy is in the hundreds of megajoules
of excess energy per cc of active material. Helium 3 and 4 are found in the
cathode material. 

Simple logic associates this with the cathode, not the calorimeter, for it
showed no excess heat in calibration. The S/N ratio is about 5:1, often
higher. Indeed, Rich wants to test this cathode with calorimeters which
have given null results with Ragland cells, and therefore must be 'good'
flow calorimeters, unlike A&Z's which must be 'bad' because they showed an
"artifact".

There is another explanation: the "artifact" is the P&F effect, fusing
deuterium nuclei to produce excess heat and 3He and 4He as illustrated in
the reaction pathways detailed in A&Z's paper. 

> That is what I was
> really driving at by the terms, "mediocre, completely out-moded
> calorimetry": I am suggesting that the most conservative hypothesis is
> that all flow calorimetry that yields mysterious excess heat is ipso
> facto "mediocre, completely out-moded calorimetry", 

In other words, only negative answers are correct? You mean your mind is
made up and you don't wnat to be confused by facts?

> even more so when
> the excess is only about 20%, far less than the months of impressive
> claims by many competent scientists, including Dennis Cravens, for the
> Ragland cell just a year ago.

Be careful. Ragland reported results. Others may have said "Ragland
said...." not "I saw...".
 
> Now, I have repeatedly called for disclosure of all details about the
> A&Z calorimetry, including such fundamentals as actual input powers,
> voltages, currents, and resistances, flow rates, actual in and out
> temperatures, the composition and dimensions of the cell and the cooling
> circuit, the number and timing of calibrations, any blank runs, the data
> for all cathodes, the exact composition, mass, construction of the
> cathodes, and more, without which no one can establish the competence of
> the calorimetry.  

> I am not reassured when I am told that A&Z are highly
> competent scientists,

You doubt his reputation because details you want aren't in a report
crammed with very vital information and a theoretical discussion? 

> when this kind of detail, so easily provided, so
> essential, is missing from the 56-page report, where the eminent Arata
> presumably had limitless lien to present whatever he wanted,  hoping to
> herald a radical, stunning scientific coup.

And you want him to clutter his paper with detail taken care of by
calibration? 

>   I hope to hear that they
> are available and willing to communicate these details.

And just what would you do with the information if you had it? 
 
> It is clear that Carrell and Rothwell do not share my concerns in the
> least.  So, gentlemen, we have reached an impasse, a Mexican stand-off,
> which only competent attempts at replication can resolve.]  End of long
> comment by Murray.   

I am satisfied that the paper represents thorough experimental work and the
results are supported by the data presented. 

> Continuing the comments by Mike Carrell:
> "Now Jed may not have quoted the exact words, but Rich's own words are
> of the same intent and meaning. In the last quote his misconceptions
> about the effect of recombiner had already been corrected by Scott. Rich
> has persisted until my last discussion in seeing only noise in the A&Z
> data.  That failed [Murray: I never conceded this!],

Quite apparently. Rich will continue to see noise and only noise. Of course
there is noise, but it is much less than the signal. 

> and he went on to
> discuss Fig 9 in more temperate style, but equally off target, even
> after I had told him that it has nothing to do with calorimetry.
> [Murray: I don't understand how Fig.9 could have nothing to do with flow
> calorimetry, when it clearly presents excess heat against time for 1600
> hours in a flow calorimeter that was turned off and on three times.] 

Rich did not and does not understand the purpose of Fig 9, for it shows
something about the processes inside the cathode capsule. The cell power
data certainly was obtained by flow calorimetry. And it clearly shows that
cell power is related to the internal cell pressure, which in turn has
theoretical significance.  

> He
> was, indeed, a bit dense [Murray: Blockheaded, actually.] about the
> presumption that a massive power failure might have produced the
> pressure variations. [Wait a second, here, Fig. 9 shows that the cathode
> Pd-Black pressure dropped almost to zero on 2 of the 3 unexplained power
> shut-offs.]"  End of quote from Mike Carrell, with comments added just
> now by Rich Murray.

Well, of course, that's the point. You shut off the electrolysis power. No
more D is being driven into the cathode. There is D already in the capsule
and the LENR are going on and do not immediately stop, but slow down as the
reactions consume the free D. The capsule cools off inside and the pressure
drops. This shows a relationship between internal pressure and the reaction
rate. What is surprising? Why shouldn't the reaction cool off eventually? 

There are other reports of P&F and Patterson cells in which the heat
production does not stop when the electrolysis drive stops. Why should this
surprise? It all has to do with loading. Once loaded, the reactions start. 

If all is noise and artifacts, why would there be such a strong
relationship between pressure and cell power? 

> I call again on Jed Rothwell to make available all the details he has
> culled from reading the Japanese language reports by A&Z.  Let us all
> join in supporting a quick independent test of the excess heat
> capabilities of the "double structure" cathodes, which, according to the
> A&Z report, is a sure shot.  I will be very pleased indeed, if excess
> heat is confirmed.  It would be a coup for the testing laboratory.
> 
> As one,   Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 21:32:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26682;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:29:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:29:23 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712190528.VAA05379 denmark.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Kawai Motor Info Requested
Resent-Message-ID: <"75a4I2.0.lW6.nOWcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14032
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael J. Shambrook wrote:
>At 11:23 PM 12/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Vorts:
>>
>>Does anyone know the telephone or fax number of Teruo Kawai, inventor of ou
>>EM motor US Patent 5,436,518, or the assignee Nihon Riken Co., Ltd?  
>>
>>A search of the internet did not produce anything.  Please send it directly
>>to my e-mail address if possible.  Checking to see the current market status
>>and licensing possibilities.  Thanks.
>>
>>Regards,   Michael Randall
>>
>>We were in touch with Kawai and discovered his patent revealed an error he
>did not originally understand.  His motor is not, and has never been, over
>unity.  He now knows this and no longer remains in contact.  Mark Goldes,
>CEO, Magnetic Power Inc.

Thanks for the update Michael.  The patent looked ok and I haven't heard of
anything for a last couple of years.

Regards,   Michael Randall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 22:28:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01881;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:24:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:24:47 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219012416.006aa448 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:24:16 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <34c14610.3499e399 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"C0XH43.0.IT.jCXcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14033
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:01 PM 12/18/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote in response to the 
following

><<BTW the "diminishing returns" seems to infer that
>you (Hal) will not go on to clearly explain in reasonably 
>simple terms exactly why you would multiply the vanishingly
>small number by a density greater than the known universe,
>and then assume that such a pseudo-googleplex-density
>exists in each cm^3 of vacuum, only to make it fit.
>Seems a stretch, and thus, would seem like an important
>theoretical hurdle for ZPE(vacuum) if it is to 
>receive the respectability that ZPE(lattice) has.>>
>
>Mitchell, it is not "my" calculation.  It appears in every QED text.  It was
>worked out before I was old enough to go to grammer school.  
>
>The calculation is straightforward.  Take an EM field in a cavity  (The
>universe is just a big cavity as a special case.)  Decompose it into a
>complete set of orthogonal modes (standing waves or propagating waves, your
>choice).  Quantize them.  Assign (h-bar X omega)/2 energy to each mode in
>accordance with the uncertainty principle.  Multiply by the mode density (nr
>of modes per unit frequency interval per unit volume that satisfy the
boundary
>conditions, (omega^2/pi^2 X c^3).  You now have the energy per unit frequency
>interval per unit volume rho = (h-bar X omega^3)/2 X pi^2 X c^3.  
>

  Hal,

  First, there is still NO explanation for why these equations
are augmented by terms of magnitude greater than the number of atoms
in the known universe to make "it come out right". Still waiting.


  Second, there is no explanation for why these equations which involve
boundaries (i.e. matter) and photons have anything to do with
purported empty space free of matter and photons.
These things should not involve ZPE(vacuum) because 
a waveguide or cavity filled with photons is obviously NOT a vacuum in 
the purest sense of the word. 

  Third, the derivation of energy in a waveguide or cavity filled
with photons via the above equations is well-known.  
In fact, such well known theory which has given
rise to microwave magnetics, circulators, etc, and is real.
In fact, as a corrolary, if the hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is to now claimed
to include waveguide/cavity theory, thereby augmenting the previous purported
claims that the hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is also responsible for helium
fluidity, 
Lamb fine structure, the Potopov device, ultrasound,
cold fusion with Pd D2O, cold fusion with
nickel H2O, sonoluminescence, cavitation, Ken Shoulder's work,
the George-Stringham expt, light percolating through vacuum triggering 
solar cells, and even gravity, then it appears ever closer to the
claim, made by Hal Puthoff, that [he believes] ZPE(vacuum) encompasses 
everything known except "Santa Claus!".
     [H. Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>,<"RgfXi1.0.Yp.TG6cq"@mx2>"]



  In summary, waveguide/cavity theory is real, as was the magnetron-magnetic 
field fine structure previously discussed in this thread, by these
DO NOT appear to necessarily involve ZPE(vacuum).

  What remains is to show how ANY of these know well-known phenomena above
have anything to do with the vanishingly small ZPE(vacuum)and it claimed
octopus-like properties, as championed by Hal Puthoff and his Earthtech group.

    Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 22:29:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01952;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:25:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:25:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219012453.00702558 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:24:53 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"OGkgH3.0.NU.IDXcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14034
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:01 PM 12/18/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote in response to the 
following

><<BTW the "diminishing returns" seems to infer that
>you (Hal) will not go on to clearly explain in reasonably 
>simple terms exactly why you would multiply the vanishingly
>small number by a density greater than the known universe,
>and then assume that such a pseudo-googleplex-density
>exists in each cm^3 of vacuum, only to make it fit.
>Seems a stretch, and thus, would seem like an important
>theoretical hurdle for ZPE(vacuum) if it is to 
>receive the respectability that ZPE(lattice) has.>>
>
>Mitchell, it is not "my" calculation.  It appears in every QED text.  It was
>worked out before I was old enough to go to grammer school.  
>
>The calculation is straightforward.  Take an EM field in a cavity  (The
>universe is just a big cavity as a special case.)  Decompose it into a
>complete set of orthogonal modes (standing waves or propagating waves, your
>choice).  Quantize them.  Assign (h-bar X omega)/2 energy to each mode in
>accordance with the uncertainty principle.  Multiply by the mode density (nr
>of modes per unit frequency interval per unit volume that satisfy the
boundary
>conditions, (omega^2/pi^2 X c^3).  You now have the energy per unit frequency
>interval per unit volume rho = (h-bar X omega^3)/2 X pi^2 X c^3.  
>

  Hal,

  First, there is still NO explanation for why these equations
are augmented by terms of magnitude greater than the number of atoms
in the known universe to make "it come out right". Still waiting.


  Second, there is no explanation for why these equations which involve
boundaries (i.e. matter) and photons have anything to do with
purported empty space free of matter and photons.
These things should not involve ZPE(vacuum) because 
a waveguide or cavity filled with photons is obviously NOT a vacuum in 
the purest sense of the word. 

  Third, the derivation of energy in a waveguide or cavity filled
with photons via the above equations is well-known.  
In fact, such well known theory which has given
rise to microwave magnetics, circulators, etc, and is real.
In fact, as a corrolary, if the hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is to now claimed
to include waveguide/cavity theory, thereby augmenting the previous purported
claims that the hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is also responsible for helium
fluidity, 
Lamb fine structure, the Potopov device, ultrasound,
cold fusion with Pd D2O, cold fusion with
nickel H2O, sonoluminescence, cavitation, Ken Shoulder's work,
the George-Stringham expt, light percolating through vacuum triggering 
solar cells, and even gravity, then it appears ever closer to the
claim, made by Hal Puthoff, that [he believes] ZPE(vacuum) encompasses 
everything known except "Santa Claus!".
     [H. Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>,<"RgfXi1.0.Yp.TG6cq"@mx2>"]



  In summary, waveguide/cavity theory is real, as was the magnetron-magnetic 
field fine structure previously discussed in this thread, by these
DO NOT appear to necessarily involve ZPE(vacuum).

  What remains is to show how ANY of these know well-known phenomena above
have anything to do with the vanishingly small ZPE(vacuum)and it claimed
octopus-like properties, as championed by Hal Puthoff and his Earthtech group.

    Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 23:38:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23870;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:35:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:35:20 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219013532.006bea8c mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:35:32 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Carrell and Rothwell re A&Z
In-Reply-To: <19971219050202120.AAA70 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8L9653.0.uq5.sEYcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14035
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:57 AM 12/19/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:


>Simple logic associates this with the cathode, not the calorimeter, for
it

>showed no excess heat in calibration. The S/N ratio is about 5:1, 
often

>higher. 


It's amazing how one's perspective can alter your view of these results. 
Mike refers to the 5 watt excess as a S/N ratio of 5:1.  According to the
data presented by A&Z this is perfectly correct.  However, I am fixated
on the 120+ watt input power and therefore view the 5 watt excess as a
S/B ratio of only 0.04.


I view the A&Z results as highly interesting...but certainly not as proof
of the CF excess heat effect.  To proceed, I'd see if a separate lab can
replicate their excess heat results.






Scott Little 

EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759

512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 

little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 18 23:53:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08741;
	Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:07:49 -0500
From: Wolfram Bahmann <WBahmann compuserve.com>
Subject: Where is Greg Watson?
Sender: Wolfram Bahmann <WBahmann compuserve.com>
To: VORTEX_L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199712190208_MC2-2C82-8F12 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id XAA08701
Resent-Message-ID: <"PQ6QZ1.0.V82.zQYcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14036
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vortexians,
who knows what's going on with the SMOT kits ?
Greg do not answer mails since weeks. Is there a real chance to receive
rollarounds?

In June I ordered 2 kits  - at that time the simple slopes. If Greg cannot
deliver the closed
loop he should at least get the ordered items out. If even this is not
possible, then
refunding is the only acceptable way. Waiting more than 6 months patiently
is enough.

Regards,

Wolfram Bahmann
secretariat German Assoc. of Vacuum Field Energy
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 01:15:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12693;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:11:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 01:11:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219041044.0071112c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:10:44 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Murray: Carrell and Rothwell re A&Z
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971219013532.006bea8c mail.eden.com>
References: <19971219050202120.AAA70 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"o3anE3.0.D63.meZcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14037
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



   At 01:35 AM 12/19/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:

>>>> 

<excerpt>At 12:57 AM 12/19/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:


>Simple logic associates this with the cathode, not the calorimeter, for
it

>showed no excess heat in calibration. The S/N ratio is about 5:1, 
often

>higher. 


It's amazing how one's perspective can alter your view of these results. 
Mike refers to the 5 watt excess as a S/N ratio of 5:1.  According to the
data presented by A&Z this is perfectly correct.  However, I am fixated
on the 120+ watt input power and therefore view the 5 watt excess as a
S/B ratio of only 0.04.


I view the A&Z results as highly interesting...but certainly not as proof
of the CF excess heat effect.  To proceed, I'd see if a separate lab can
replicate their excess heat results.


</excerpt>



   Agree with Mike Carrell, and others, who concur that

the A&Z result not only yet again confirms cold fusion, but also

demonstrate yet another setup featuring a different loading

and electrode structure which generates excess heat.  


  Furthermore, once again, it is noted that the

excess heat evolved is of a nuclear origin, because

the Arata data demonstrates QMS changes consistent with

the nuclear ash generated.


   Anyone wishing to see some of the time-elapsed QMS data can look

at the front page of the COLD FUSION TIMES (volume 5, no 3)

which is at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/cfttime.html#cft53


   

   Cold fusion which has been confirmed by CEREM, NASA, the US NAVY,

EPRI, JET Energy Technology, Blacklight, and several investigators

cited in Dieter Britz's bibliography or the COLD FUSION TIMES.


  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 05:51:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29134;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:48:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 05:48:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349A6D1C.30 earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:48:28 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, sejones@physics1.byu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, g-miley@uiuc.edu, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com,
        dennis wazoo.com, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, tchubb@aol.com,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, terry4@llnl.gov, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu
Subject: Britz: bit of openness to CF
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"YG2Ta.0.777.Iidcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14038
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz nospam.har.har>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Testing CF Calorimetry
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:25:22 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971219090431.22455B-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <199712171522.KAA125771 pilot17.cl.msu.edu> <Pine.OSF.3.95.971218144645.12168A-100000@kemi.aau.dk> <67cg6t$svh$1@news.u-net.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <67cg6t$svh$1 news.u-net.net>

On 19 Dec 1997, David Gaskill wrote:

> In message <Pine.OSF.3.95.971218144645.12168A-100000 kemi.aau.dk> - "d.b"
> <britz nospam.har.har> writes:
> >
> >Basically, what I am about in this is for us skeptics to be less dogmatic
> >about claims, and dismiss them only if we can back up the dismissal. 
> 
> 
> To me this sounds dangerously close to a plea to keep our minds so open that
> there is a danger of our brains falling out.  
[...]

You misread me. I thought I made it clear that personally, deep down, I don't
believe in excess heat or the production of He or tritium etc. I need to give
them a miniscule chance though, when there are evidently competent people
making the claims. E.g. I can see nothing wrong with Will's tritium paper -
can you? My mind is thus a tiny bit open, but my brains are not falling out,
no worries mate. What I meant is that no matter what we think or believe, if
we start pronouncing on experiments, we'd better be able to back up what we
say, and not go overboard with blanket condemnations or "explanations" that
are even less likely than a hitherto unknown nuclear reaction, or just miss
the point. We don't have to try to replicate anything if we don't feel like
it, and the TB's have to prove their case convincingly, not with marginal
results that one can either accept or reject. It has to hit us over the head
and be, as Mallove likes to say, compelling. As things stand, their case is
not compelling. Instead of frothing at the mouth at our lack of Belief, the
TB's ought to give us that compelling evidence. Similarly, as I say, if we
want to prove something nonsense, we must do better than just say so. If we
care to. In most cases, I don't even try, being busy with more interesting
stuff.

What I like about this affair, as with "Creation Science" etc, is that we
scientists do get a bit too smug about our body of knowledge and tend to
think that there is really nothing startling left to discover, and that our
models are pretty well correct. We get sharpened up by a challenge to our
smugness, and that does us good. I have no doubt that there are indeed some
startling things yet to be found.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 06:27:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02024;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:25:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:25:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <560577b.349a8377 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:23:48 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Th_Gz1.0.WV.3Fecq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14039
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/19/97 6:48:49 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<These things should not involve ZPE(vacuum) because 
a waveguide or cavity filled with photons is obviously NOT a vacuum in 
the purest sense of the word. >>

What quantum electrodynamics tells us is that any waveguide or cavity
(including the whole universe as a special case), even when emptied of photons
as best we can to make a perfect vacuum, is never quite empty because of the
uncertainty principle, which states that as low as you can go is the
equivalent of half a photon's worth of energy per mode due to vacuum
fluctuations.  That is the vacuum ZPE.

<<purported claims that the hypothesized ZPE(vacuum) is also responsible for
helium fluidity, Lamb fine structure, the Potopov device, ultrasound,
cold fusion with Pd D2O, cold fusion withnickel H2O, sonoluminescence,
cavitation, Ken Shoulder's work, the George-Stringham expt, light percolating
through vacuum triggering solar cells, and even gravity, then it appears ever
closer to the claim, made by Hal Puthoff, that [he believes] ZPE(vacuum)
encompasses everything known except "Santa Claus!">>

I don't know if ZPE is responsible for all those things.  BTW, the reason I
excluded Santa Claus was under the assumption he didn't exist.  If he does
exist, we'll have to include him as well, since the radiation emitted by
accelerated electrons in his atomic ground state orbits is compensated by ZPE
absorption to maintain stability. :-)  See H. E. Puthoff, "Ground State of
Hydrogen as a Zero-Point-Fluctuation-Determined State," Phys. Rev. D 35, 3266
(1987).

Best regards,
Hal 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 06:36:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24633;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:32:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:32:44 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <1da6de4b.349a84d0 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:29:34 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"AW9ms.0.p06.BMecq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14040
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/19/97 6:58:03 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<vanishingly small ZPE(vacuum)and it claimed
octopus-like properties, as championed by Hal Puthoff and his Earthtech
group.>>

We're just sheep, following the crowd, championing Newton's Law, Einstein's
equations, and (with regard to ZPE) quantum electrodynamics as they are
presented in the textbooks.  If the textbooks are wrong, then we are wrong.
If the textbooks are right, then we are right.  We're just cooks following the
recipes given in the cookbooks.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 06:56:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27513;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:52:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:52:34 -0800
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:48:05 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Long Arata paper
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712190951_MC2-2C94-295D compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"ImNvb2.0.nj6.meecq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14041
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Akira Kawasaki (aki ix.netcom.com) translated one of the longer early papers
by Arata and Zhang. I think he did the one with many details about the
calorimetry. Contact him to learn more about their calorimetry.

Regarding the J. High Temp. Society paper, Mike Carrell wrote "over 5 watts of
excess power is produced for thousands of hours." Fig. 8a shows 20 to 40
kilojoules per hour, with an 80 KJ peak. That translates into 5, 11 and 22
watts. Fig. 8b, from another cathode, shows about 60 KJ per hour. Fig. 8c
shows most points clustered around 15 watts excess.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 08:04:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12517;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:58:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:58:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349AC3D2.50E4 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:58:26 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <560577b.349a8377 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KK7tH.0.I33.Ucfcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14042
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Puthoff wrote:

[snip]
 
> What quantum electrodynamics tells us is that any waveguide or cavity
> (including the whole universe as a special case), even when emptied of photons
> as best we can to make a perfect vacuum, is never quite empty because of the
> uncertainty principle, which states that as low as you can go is the
> equivalent of half a photon's worth of energy per mode due to vacuum
> fluctuations.  That is the vacuum ZPE.

[snip]

I don't understand what Swartz is ranting about.  What Hal says here is
exactly what is said on page 761 of my college physics book
_Fundamentals of Physics_ by Halliday and Resnick, copyright 1970, by
John Wiley & Sons, Inc.  As far as I can tell, the only thing
questionable is the cutoff frequency of this energy.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 08:27:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15367;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:22:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:22:28 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:04:54 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971219150944390.AAA152 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"N-qbZ3.0.1m3.1zfcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14043
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott, Rich, and I look at the same set of data and see different results,
like the blind men brailling (groping) the elephant. 

I come back to the matter of calibration. Here is the cell, with a Pt
cathode. It is operated at various power levels and cell power measured.
The measurements are plotted in Fig 6b. There is a scatter of points,
indicating some noise. The scatter is approximately the same for all power
levels from 0 to the operating range ~130W, so there appears to be no
power-dependent artifacts in the cell calorimetery. We are calibrating with
an equivalent electrochemical reaction. How much closer can you get? 

I have discussed the scatter of readings a number of times, I won't repeat
them. They are in my previous posts. When averaged by a least squares
method, A&Z get a negative drift of ~0.7 W, indicating a slight power loss
in the cell. This is 0.7/130 = 0.0054, or ~0.5%. This is a S/N of 200 for
the integrated energy number, the one to be related to the He production.

The Y axis scale factor of Fig 8 is 4.76 KJ/hr/mm. Plotted on Fig 8a,  -0.7
W is .25 KJ/hr, or a line 0.05 mm below the zero axis, extending for the
length of the experiment. I leave it to your eyeball integration to compare
the integrated (area) energy due to the Pd cathode compared to the Pt
calibration cathode. For Fig 8a, a rough graphical integration gives 108 MJ
energy, compared to -12 MJ for the integrated calorimeter calibration over
the run of 4750 hours.  

Now the plots of Fig 8 show large, long term trends, with time-dense short
term variations superimposed, in what we could call noise. How much of this
short term noise is due to the calorimeter? The calibration shows us, very
clearly in Fig. 6b. Translated to the scale of Fig 8b, the scatter is an
envelope ~1 mm wide. Again, use your eyeball. Does this contribution of
short term variation of the calorimeter with the Pt cathode account for the
data points shown with the Pd cathode? Or is something else going on? 

Does substitution of the Pd cathode cause the sudden appearance of a
virulent disease, an explosion of artifacts? I claim it is the P&F effect
in full glory. 

Now 130 W is 480 KJ/hr, which plotted on Fig 8a would be a line 100 mm
above baseline. The nominal excess power is of the order of 20 KJ/hr, or
15% with a noise envelope of 1% (1 mm in 100). With a nominal 20+  KJ/hr
excess power signal and a scatter range of +/- 5.4 KJ/hr, the S/N is 3.7.
You can choose whatever numbers you want to get S/N ratios. Just look at
the graphs. There is a clear signal, not buried in calorimeter noise. 

Yes, you can fixate of the 130 W power input and wonder why it is so high.
I don't know. But does this invalidate the measurement of excess heat? Is
the system not linear by calibration? Does the superposition theorem then
not apply? Is it not legitimate to replot as in Fig 8a?

Rich insist on seeing only noise. I don't know what he expects to see. It
would be nice to see more steady values, but steady values presented as
measurements of a new physical process would be screamingly suspicious,
suggesting use of a ruler or failed equipment. 

No doubt it would be interesting and useful to have other labs to test the
Arata cathodes for excess heat. But by the rules of systematic calibration
and comparison of conditions A and B, I see clear evidence that B does
something fundamentally different from A. What could be plainer? More
straightforward? If you believe that Arata, decorated by the Emperor of
Japan, is an honorable man, reporting truthfully on what he did and saw,
then why not accept what he presents as a firm data point and go forward? 

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 08:28:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11689;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:24:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:24:13 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219112420.00712440 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:24:20 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Cc: commengr bellsouth.net
In-Reply-To: <349AC3D2.50E4 bellsouth.net>
References: <560577b.349a8377 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"zerKN.0.Ys2.i-fcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14045
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:58 AM 12/19/97 -0800, Terry wrote:


>

> What Hal says here is

>exactly what is said on page 761 of my college physics book

>_Fundamentals of Physics_ by Halliday and Resnick, copyright 1970, by

>John Wiley & Sons, Inc.  As far as I can tell, the only thing

>questionable is the cutoff frequency of this energy.

>

>Terry

>




 Good point, however, one question is relevance.

 Why would waveguide physics, the quantum nature of the atom

(with its boundary conditions and presence of matter and energy),

necessarily relate to the postulate of pure vacuum having

"secret" mass greater than the known mass of the universe in

each cm^3?


 My point is that Newton's Law and Einstein's equations and 

waveguide theory do not appear to generate <italic>ab initio

</italic>the handwaving of such hidden "secret" mass, as is necessarily

postulated in, and associated with, ZPE(vacuum). 


 IMO it is one thing where<bold> matter </bold>creates a boundary
condition.  

In fact, such a system does reasonably have quantum modes.  

It may be another in a pure vacuum free of matter and 

photons.  Certainly we all remain open to consider any serious 

derivations, or suggestions of proof of why waveguide physics

would be applicable to the vacuum.  Especially that notion that

ALL modes are present in a vacuum.


  Have only been asking for the information to explain the 

purported link between well-known equations with which I have

no argument, and their (mis?)application to the purported

ZPE(v) which is now claimed to be responsible for many

phenomena, and of a magnitude far beyond what the equations

actually indicate.


  Best wishes.


   Mitchell Swartz <<mica world.std.com>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 08:31:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12046;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:27:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:27:52 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219112500.00712fe0 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:25:00 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <560577b.349a8377 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"c5P7b3.0.7y2.62gcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14046
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  At 09:23 AM 12/19/97 EST, Hal Puthoff  wrote:
>
>In a message dated 12/19/97 6:48:49 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
><<These things should not involve ZPE(vacuum) because 
>a waveguide or cavity filled with photons is obviously NOT a vacuum in 
>the purest sense of the word. >>
>
>What quantum electrodynamics tells us is that any waveguide or cavity
>(including the whole universe as a special case), even when emptied of
photons
>as best we can to make a perfect vacuum, is never quite empty because of the
>uncertainty principle, which states that as low as you can go is the
>equivalent of half a photon's worth of energy per mode due to vacuum
>fluctuations.  That is the vacuum ZPE.


  Most textbooks are not full of ZPE(vacuum), although they ARE
filled to the brim with Newton's Law, Einstein's equations, and 
quantum electrodynamics, and waveguide physics. 

 My point is that Newton's Law and Einstein's equations do not appear 
to necessarily generate the results claimed by handwaving 
associated with ZPE(vacuum) beyond its infintesimal magnitude.

   It is one thing where matter creates a boundary condition, 
such a system does have quantum modes. 

   It may be quite another in a pure vacuum.
However, certainly we all remain open to consider any serious 
derivations, or suggestions of proof of why waveguide physics
would be applicable to the vacuum. Especially that notion that
ALL modes are present in a vacuum.  Where does the energy
come from to fill all these putative modes which are claimed
to be defined without matter creating boundary conditions?

 
 Finally, one other criticism is that the ZPE(v) claims are
mixing the two equations involving the uncertainty principle which links 
position and momentum, or energy and time; not energy and position 
as appears to be claimed by some of the notions of the ZPE(v) proponents.

  delta-E * delta-t = ~ h-bar.

  or 

  delta-p * delta-x = ~h-bar.

  
    Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com).

=============================================================

   "Controversy is only dreaded by the advocates of error."
    Dr. Benjamin Rush (1745-1813) U.S. physician, patriot


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 08:33:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15532;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:24:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:24:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219112325.0070dd04 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:23:25 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <1da6de4b.349a84d0 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"H-hBx.0.Zo3.V-fcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14044
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 09:29 AM 12/19/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote:
>
>In a message dated 12/19/97 6:58:03 AM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>
><<vanishingly small ZPE(vacuum)and it claimed
>octopus-like properties, as championed by Hal Puthoff and his Earthtech
>group.>>
>
>We're just sheep, following the crowd, championing Newton's Law, Einstein's
>equations, and (with regard to ZPE) quantum electrodynamics as they are
>presented in the textbooks.  If the textbooks are wrong, then we are wrong.
>If the textbooks are right, then we are right.  We're just cooks following
the
>recipes given in the cookbooks.
>

  Most textbooks are not full of ZPE(vacuum), although they are
filled to the brim with Newton's Law, Einstein's equations, and 
quantum electrodynamics, quantum optics, and waveguide physics. 

 My point is that Newton's Law and Einstein's equations do not appear 
to generate the handwaving associated with ZPE(vacuum). It is one
thing where matter creates a boundary condition, such a system does
have quantum modes.  It may be another in a pure vacuum.
However, certainly we all remain open to consider any serious 
derivations, or suggestions of proof of why waveguide physics
would be applicable to the vacuum.  Especially that notion that
ALL modes are present in a vacuum.

  The final two points are that ZPE(v), if it exists is infintesimal
and therefore is order of magnitude less than the serious phenomena 
purported to be created by its meagre energy.

    Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com).

=============================================================

   "Controversy is only dreaded by the advocates of error."
    Dr. Benjamin Rush (1745-1813) U.S. physician, patriot



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 11:23:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07936;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:10:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:10:43 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:09:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Sevior <msevior kosal0.triumf.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: commengr bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971219112420.00712440 world.std.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971219105958.25452A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"WLloc.0.wx1.oQicq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14047
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

>
>
>  Good point, however, one question is relevance.
>
>  Why would waveguide physics, the quantum nature of the atom
>
> (with its boundary conditions and presence of matter and energy),
>
> necessarily relate to the postulate of pure vacuum having
>
> "secret" mass greater than the known mass of the universe in
>
> each cm^3?
>

This is a very interesting question which is carried to an even greater
extreme with the Higgs Field required by the Standard Model of Particle
Physics to give mass to all elementary fermions. The Higgs field must have a
non zero expectation value in all space time. Given that its mass is
expected to be over 100 GeV, this also corresponds to a huge mass component
in an empty vacuum. When I've asked some of the best theorists in the world
about this problem (who are absolutely mainstream) they've said that "We
don't understand what zero means". In other words even if the standard model
is right, and the Higgs Field exists (which would be a blow to Hal Putoff
who has championed a different approach) there is still more to understand
about the vacuum and probably Quantum Mechanics too.

As I've said before, there are lots of very interesting questions to be
answered in particle physics.

>
>  My point is that Newton's Law and Einstein's equations and
>
> waveguide theory do not appear to generate <italic>ab initio
>
> </italic>the handwaving of such hidden "secret" mass, as is necessarily
>
> postulated in, and associated with, ZPE(vacuum).
>

It's not just ZPE that is ignored. See above. The vacuum remains an enigma.

Martin Sevior


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 11:35:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10703;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:31:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:31:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:30:25 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971219143024_1359365476 mrin54>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  A&Z, overview
Resent-Message-ID: <"87B861.0.8d2.ckicq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14049
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mike, you're right, I don't have a copy of the long 1997 A&Z paper, which
turns out to be impossible to get in the US, except from CF sources like you,
Gene, Jed, Rich, and maybe Mitchell (judging by what he's published in COLD
FUSION TIMES); but I do have a copy of four other papers by A&Z.

Mills proposes that lithium and palladium can form a catalytic couple that
will produce hydrinos from atomic hydrogen.  Mike, what's missing from the
A&Z cell for that catalytic process to work there?

By the way, as of a couple of years ago, Mills thought it likely that only
hydrogen could be catalyzed below the conventional ground state.

Also, re lithium, Fleischmann did say at least once, years ago, that he
thought the lithium essential to the reaction in an electrolytic
palladium-cathode cell, though he added that he didn't know why.

A footnote to my post, in which I said that "only" 1) and 3) had been proven:
 I wouldn't use the word "only" if I were to write that message again.
 Proving excess heat without neutrons and gammas is revolutionary, a great
achievement, and that holds even more strongly for the work of Mills.

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 11:35:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12532;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:30:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:30:58 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:30:18 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971219143018_-2058748892 mrin51.mx>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Miles & NHE Lab
Resent-Message-ID: <"1U8wR2.0.f33.mjicq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14048
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Has the NHE lab in Sapporo invited Melvin Miles to reproduce his work there?
 Is this a last-ditch attempt by the NHE lab to come up with positive results
and keep the lab going?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 12:47:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20554;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:42:08 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: A&Z, overview
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:39:37 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971219204437313.AAA193 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"TXAux.0.315.Tmjcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14050
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tom says: 
 
> Mills proposes that lithium and palladium can form a catalytic couple
that
> will produce hydrinos from atomic hydrogen.  Mike, what's missing from
the
> A&Z cell for that catalytic process to work there?

I had missed that point in Mills' writings. If so, then hydrino production
may occur in the A&Z cell. I was focusing on the H - K+ catalysis process.
I won't speculate on what happens at the atomic-level interface between the
surface of the cathode capsule and the electrolyte; that's clearly the core
of electrochemistry. 

I do think it will take quite a while to sort out what really goes on. That
shouldn't stop commercialization and other progress.

> By the way, as of a couple of years ago, Mills thought it likely that
only
> hydrogen could be catalyzed below the conventional ground state.

It seems to me that this is a fundamental process. I think it likely that
Mills' theory isn't complete and further discoveries await us. 

> Also, re lithium, Fleischmann did say at least once, years ago, that he
> thought the lithium essential to the reaction in an electrolytic
> palladium-cathode cell, though he added that he didn't know why.

Good point. Exercises to be left for the students. 

> A footnote to my post, in which I said that "only" 1) and 3) had been
proven:
>  I wouldn't use the word "only" if I were to write that message again.
>  Proving excess heat without neutrons and gammas is revolutionary, a
great
> achievement, and that holds even more strongly for the work of Mills.

The whole blooming area is revolutionary. Lots of work to be done. 

Regards, Mike

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 13:48:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09335;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:37:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:37:35 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <808e9c3e.349ae8c0 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:35:58 EST
To: mica world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: commengr bellsouth.net
Subject: Re:  Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"kuxb-3.0.lH2.Uakcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14051
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/19/97 4:57:05 PM, Mitchell Swartz asks:

<<postulate of pure vacuum having "secret" mass greater than the known mass of
the universe in each cm^3?>>

The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is said to
consist of "virtual photons."  The statement you are probably referring to is
the one that "*if* the ZPE energy density were to be converted into mass
density via E = mc^2, it would be the *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3."  That is
not to say that the vacuum has mass; quite the contrary, since photons are
massless bosons.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:07:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01013;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219160037.00a0f114 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:00:37 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
In-Reply-To: <19971219150944390.AAA152 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"GwMfy3.0.hF.bwkcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14052
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:04 12/19/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

>But by the rules of systematic calibration
>and comparison of conditions A and B, I see clear evidence that B does
>something fundamentally different from A. What could be plainer? More
>straightforward?

Mike, I don't have any argument with this point.  A&Z successfully
demonstrate that the Pd cathode shows a positive signal, attributed to
excess heat, where the Pt cathode does not.  Knowing Rich as I do, I would
venture to say that he also will not argue with this point.  The real
question is this:  

	Is the cause of this signal really excess heat...or is it some hidden
systematic error in A&Z's calorimetry?

I know that some of you are reaching for your keyboard right now, blood
pressure rising, to slam me into the ground...  Another group of you are
reflectively nodding in agreement.  Further discussion with members of the
first group is pointless.  For those in the 2nd group, how can we answer
this all-important question?  

Independent replication of the A&Z experiment is one possibility.

Further experimental results from A&Z could be of value especially if they
would add simultaneous and independent measurements of input power and
output heat to their existing measurements.

Arguing about the A&Z paper will not help much at all.

Any other ideas?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:15:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15131;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:10:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:10:01 -0800
Message-ID: <349B1B23.53B7 bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:10:59 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <560577b.349a8377 aol.com> <349AC3D2.50E4@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"EG9_f.0.Li3.u2lcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14053
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mitchell Swartz wrote:

[snip]

> Certainly we all remain open to consider any serious
> derivations, or suggestions of proof of why waveguide physics
> would be applicable to the vacuum. Especially that notion that
> ALL modes are present in a vacuum.

[snip]

Given that the cutoff frequency of these "demiphotons" *is* on the order
of 1.51 x 10^33 Hertz and all modes are present only in the waveguide
and not the vacuum, would not the energy required to *create* a
waveguide be, well, enormous? <G>

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:25:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17445;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:23:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:23:19 -0800
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:49:46 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Miles & NHE Lab
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712191653_MC2-2CA1-69FA compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"HClCw1.0.IG4.LFlcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14054
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

     Has the NHE lab in Sapporo invited Melvin Miles to reproduce his work
     there?

No, he said he is working on a replication of some of these Italian thin wire
electromigration experiments.


     Is this a last-ditch attempt by the NHE lab to come up with positive
     results and keep the lab going?

Who knows?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:30:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18781;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:26:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:26:43 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219172657.006b6c9c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:26:57 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971219160037.00a0f114 mail.eden.com>
References: <19971219150944390.AAA152 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"1GXSu1.0.Gb4.YIlcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14055
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 04:00 PM 12/19/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>
>Mike, I don't have any argument with this point.  A&Z successfully
>demonstrate that the Pd cathode shows a positive signal, attributed to
>excess heat, where the Pt cathode does not.  Knowing Rich as I do, I would
>venture to say that he also will not argue with this point.  The real
>question is this:  
>
>	Is the cause of this signal really excess heat...or is it some hidden
>systematic error in A&Z's calorimetry?
>
>I know that some of you are reaching for your keyboard right now, blood
>pressure rising, to slam me into the ground...  Another group of you are
>reflectively nodding in agreement.  Further discussion with members of the
>first group is pointless.  For those in the 2nd group, how can we answer
>this all-important question?  
>


   Sounds like inaccurate remote viewing.   ;-)X

Actually, the complaints against Prof. Arata's work amount to
systematic pathologic criticism.  It is clear that Prof. Arata
has done distinguished work which has pushed the field ahead
another quantum leap.

  Dr. Mitchell Swartz
   JET Energy Technology


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:38:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07896;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:33:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:33:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219173251.006ba084 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:32:51 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"5fo5w.0.Ix1.wOlcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14056
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 09:29 AM 12/19/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote:

>Mitchell Swartz asks:
>
><<postulate of pure vacuum having "secret" mass greater than the known
mass of
>the universe in each cm^3?>>
>
>The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is said to
>consist of "virtual photons." 

  OK. As long as there is not any amount of real energy
then we are in agreement.   

  Best wishes.
      Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 14:57:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24614;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:53:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:53:09 -0800
Sender: ralph gateway.minimal.com
Message-ID: <349AFABD.1D095814 minimal.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:52:45 -0500
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Organization: minimal, limited
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.30 i586)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: TT Brown on the Learning Channel Sunday
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"WL7Jt.0.N06.Hhlcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14057
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/schedule/tlc/1997/12/21.html

http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/episode/29/548067004.html

> 
>                     Science Frontiers--Future Fantastic
>                     Week
>                     The Incredible Shrinking Planet
>                     --------------------------------------
> 
>                     Scientists invent their own
>                     high-speed flying saucers and attempt
>                     the ultimate form of transport
>                     teleportation.
> 
>                     Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
> 
>                     TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 10:00 PM
> 
>                     TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 01:00 AM
> 
>                     TLC - 21 Dec 1997 - 01:00 PM
> 
>                     --------------------------------------
>                     Copyright İ 1997 Discovery
>                     Communications, Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 15:31:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA30520;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:27:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:27:12 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219182725.006b8b78 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:27:25 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.92.971219105958.25452A-100000 kosal0.triumf.ca>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971219112420.00712440 world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"wXt0s1.0.jS7.EBmcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14058
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


  At 11:09 AM 12/19/97 -0800, Martin Sevior wrote:
>
>On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote:
>>  Good point, however, one question is relevance.
>>  Why would waveguide physics, the quantum nature of the atom
>> (with its boundary conditions and presence of matter and energy),
>> necessarily relate to the postulate of pure vacuum having
>> "secret" mass greater than the known mass of the universe in
>> each cm^3?
>>
>"This is a very interesting question which is carried to an even greater
>extreme with the Higgs Field required by the Standard Model of Particle
>Physics to give mass to all elementary fermions. The Higgs field must have a
>non zero expectation value in all space time. Given that its mass is
>expected to be over 100 GeV, this also corresponds to a huge mass component
>in an empty vacuum. When I've asked some of the best theorists in the world
>about this problem (who are absolutely mainstream) they've said that "We
>don't understand what zero means". In other words even if the standard model
>is right, and the Higgs Field exists (which would be a blow to Hal Putoff
>who has championed a different approach) there is still more to understand
>about the vacuum and probably Quantum Mechanics too.
>As I've said before, there are lots of very interesting questions to be
>answered in particle physics."

  Both eloquent and reasonable. 
  Many interesting questions in nuclear and fusion physics, too.

  Best wishes.
   Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 15:37:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA31534;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:34:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:34:28 -0800
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:06:30 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712191810_MC2-2C9B-ADA compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"Naifj3.0.ei7.3Imcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14059
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Scott Little writes:

     The real question is this:

     Is the cause of this signal really excess heat...or is it some hidden
     systematic error in A&Z's calorimetry?

     . . . how can we answer this all-important question?

     Independent replication of the A&Z experiment is one possibility.

Well, if the calorimetry is the question, it seems to me you should be
independently replicating his calorimeter. Replicating his DS-cathode is out
of the question. It is not a possibility; it is a waste of time to discuss the
matter. You might as well talk about replicating the PPPL tokamak.

Nobody reading this group has the skill, the knowledge, the time or the money
to replicate Arata. Arata built his first DS cathode style device as a
component on Japan's first plasma fusion reactor in the 1950s. He built other
things in the meanwhile, but it is clear that he and Zhang bring an enormous
level of skill to the job. Furthermore, he is not willing to share his
knowledge with other people. Like many other CF scientists in their 70s, he
seems determined to take his secrets to the grave. Fortunately Zhang is still
young, and I have heard she is doing most of the hands-on work.

Even if full details of every aspect of the DS cathode were published tomorrow
on Internet, most people would still be unable to replicate it. I am sure that
Scott Little could not do it. He has not even attempted to do the Storms
protocol for Pons-Fleischmann style experiments, which is far simpler than
constructing a DS cathode. Little or I might find a high tech engineering firm
to fabricate a DS cathode, but it would probably be severely out of spec, like
the Patterson beads Little ordered a few years ago. This was not anyone's
fault. It is inevitable. These experiments have a significant learning curve.
You must go through several cathodes in a year or two before you figure out
how it works.

The difficulties of CF have been brought home to me yet again as I translate
this book by Mizuno. Mizuno is a professor of electrochemistry with 30 years
experience. In 1989 he constructed and ran his first experiment in a few
weeks, in what he considered a kind of warm-up run (no pun intended). It
produced neutrons but no significant excess heat or tritium. This was a weak
but possibly significant result. He then built a new cell. He tested and
purified materials and components; calibrated and prepared for a live run.
This stage of the work took him *eight months*, with the assistance of a
graduate student. The task constituted an independent study graduate level
course in electrochemistry for his assistant. I am sure that learning to make
a DS cathode would take an expert many months, possibly years.

After the March 1989 announcement many CF "experiments" were performed in a
matter of weeks by people who did not have the slightest idea what they
entailed. These people then denounced cold fusion and published scathing
attacks in the newspapers, all in a matter of weeks, a few months, in a
hysterical rush to judgement. In the meanwhile, electrochemists like Mizuno,
Miles and McKubre were still puzzling over the Pons-Fleischmann paper and
preparing preliminary test runs. Six to eight months after the summer 1989
they were still working on their first or second set of runs. It took them a
few years to produce definitive results, and much longer to publish these
results, because by that time every journal was attacking cold fusion. The
calorimetric and tritium results from these first genuine experiments is, in
every case, iron-clad. It is far beyond dispute. People like Murray and Little
believe they have some basis to question this data, but they are deluded. They
might as well question J. P. Joule's original work.


     Further experimental results from A&Z could be of value especially if
     they would add simultaneous and independent measurements of input power
     and output heat to their existing measurements.

Such results were published years ago. They will not convince the likes of
Murray or Little. Nothing will. A person can always find another excuse to
deny the obvious.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 15:48:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00325;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:43:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:43:12 -0800
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:37:47 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: TT Brown on the Learning Channel Sunday (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971219183542.14467H-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA00304
Resent-Message-ID: <"GJHeV2.0.-4.FQmcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14060
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear vo.,

	I do not have cable TV.  Please can someone watch and tell me 
name of USAF type and TT work?


				
	I don't watch TV...

	I did watch Men in Black with my daughter last night.  What a hoot!


					J

	PS:  I want one of those memory pens!

	And one of the little tiny hand guns.

						J


http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/schedule/tlc/1997/12/21.html

http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/episode/29/548067004.html

> 
>                     Science Frontiers--Future Fantastic
>                     Week
>                     The Incredible Shrinking Planet
>                     --------------------------------------
> 
>                     Scientists invent their own
>                     high-speed flying saucers and attempt
>                     the ultimate form of transport
>                     teleportation.
> 
>                     Air Time(s) Eastern Time:
> 
>                     TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 10:00 PM
> 
>                     TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 01:00 AM
> 
>                     TLC - 21 Dec 1997 - 01:00 PM
> 
>                     --------------------------------------
>                     Copyright İ 1997 Discovery
>                     Communications, Inc.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 16:50:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28390;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349B061D.67BD earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:17 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu
Subject: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"EjdDM1.0.Wx6.2Gncq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14061
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dec. 19, 1997

Vorts,  here is a sanitized post by Dick Blue.  What bugs me is that I
didn't think of this obvious angle myself.  I was blinded by the
preconception that an experiment with an anode, cathode, electrolyte,
and current flow was an electrolysis experiment.

"It seems obvious to me that the Arata and Zhang experiments differ
significantly from all other CF investigations because they employ
a unique cathode design, yet no one seems to have picked up on any
of the implications of this design.

As I understand it the Arata-Zhang cathode consists of a metal capsule
filled with varying amounts of Pd black.  The key assertion with regard
to the detected 3He and 4He as reaction products is that they are found
internal to the Pd black and are released only at a very elevated
temperature.

Is it not obvious (and possibly very significant) that in this
configuration the Pd black where the reaction is thought to occur is
never in contact with the electrolyte?  In fact this design clearly
reduces the role of the electrolysis to nothing more than an indirect
means for supply gas to pressurize the interior of the capsule.  I
should think any speculation about a role for lithium in the nuclear
process can now be laid to rest, for example.  I rather doubt that the
Pd black makes any contact with lithium or any other special ingredients
that may be present in the electrolyte.

The fact that Pd black is separated from the electrolyte by the walls of
a capsule further removes any likelyhood that such parameters as current
density have any significance for the reaction rate.  Little or no
current will actually pass through the Pd black.

So, perhaps unwittingly, Arata and Zhang have demystified the cold
fusion reaction process by eliminating a host of possible effects that
have been the subject of speculation for years.  The question I then
raise is why not complete the simplification of the experimental design
to eliminate what are now obviously extraneous complication features.

The only way in which the Pd black inside the capsule can be effectively
loaded to saturation with deuterium is by exposure to the deuterium
gas at high pressure inside the capsule.  The electrolysis and
electrolysis current can play no direct role so why not eliminate them
entirely? 

The electrolysis current and resulting power input just add to the
complexity of calorimetry.  With that power input gone any heat of
reaction presents a much cleaner measurement as there is no input power
to confuse the issue.

Once it is recognized that gas pressure in the capsule is the
controlling parameter for the experiment then a direct pressurization
with gas is the obvious way to do the experiment.

Now that we are focussed on the question of gas pressure within the
capsule I'd like to ask a question of those who best informed about the
structure of the Arata-Zhang cathode?  What is your estimate of the
bursting pressure of said capsule and how does that compare with the
pressures quoted by A-Z?  I am just a little concerned that my
suggestion that the measurements be repeated with simple direct
pressurization might lead someone inexperienced with high-pressure
systems into doing something foolish.  If you do decide to construct
such a system it must be hydrostatically tested under safe conditions
before being put into use!!!

Even the hydrostatic testing of the capsule (which I assume Arata and
Zhang have done) may not be sufficienty to insure safe operation under
the condition of their experiment.  One must not forget that the
saturation of the capsule walls with hydrogen can have a very marked
effect on the mechanical properties of the metal.

Finally let's not forget some basic nuclear reaction physics.  If I make
4He from deuterium there is a simple relationship between the
composition of the input and that of the output.  For the chemists among
us, think about Dalton's law for nuclear reactions.  It's two deuterons
to make one 4He, right?  Now suppose I make 3He instead?  How do you get
the numbers to work out when you make 3He from deuterium?
 
Isn't there a bit of a problem because two deuterons make one 3He with a
neutron left over?   Where does the extra neutron go?

Dick Blue"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 18:21:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26387;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:09:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:09:41 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971219200953.006c18d0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:09:53 -0600
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
In-Reply-To: <349B061D.67BD earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"5Hyrk2.0.8S6.aZocq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14062
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:41 PM 12/19/97 -0600, Rich Murray wrote:

>The only way in which the Pd black inside the capsule can be effectively
>loaded to saturation with deuterium is by exposure to the deuterium
>gas at high pressure inside the capsule.  The electrolysis and
>electrolysis current can play no direct role so why not eliminate them
>entirely? 

This appears to be a damned good suggestion to me.  A company called
Haskell makes gas pumps which can readily achieve 1000 atmospheres and will
handle hydrogen/deuterium nicely.  Given such a pump and some Sno-Trik
fittings (4,000 atm rating), I could have the modified A&Z experiment
running within a week.  The best part:  once pressurized, the chamber
containing the Pd black would have ZERO input power!  Excess heats in the
5-15 watt range would stand out like a sore...er, burned...thumb!

Haskell pumps are expensive...$5000-$10000, I believe.  Anybody got one I
can borrow?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 23:24:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29633;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:20:41 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:20:41 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RQM energy device
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:52:28 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <349c2b45.181724667 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644 [12.64.35.10]> <l03102802b0b8cdcb3644@[12.64.35.10]> <l03102804b0bbf3893732@[12.64.35.72]>
In-Reply-To: <l03102804b0bbf3893732 [12.64.35.72]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Sc_vL3.0.oE7.67tcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14063
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:00:54 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote:

>Robin -
>
>   >  Perhaps prices will come down with mass production
>   >  (and hopefully reliability go up ).
>
>I'm still hoping its *reality* will go up!  ;)
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
Yes, me too :). As long as they test with batteries, there is the
chance that they are just "shocking" the battery. Especially when you
consider the fact that they state that there are some pretty hefty
transients that can destroy the electronics at times.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 19 23:30:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02130;
	Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:29:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:29:05 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:29:12 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: BLP replication effort
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZjrIt.0.wW.-Etcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14064
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts,

We are underway with a serious effort to replicate one of the more
spectacular excess heat results of BlackLight Power.  The following address:

http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html

contains a fairly detailed description of our progress to date.  As you
will see we've already done the groundwork to get a first-cut at the
experiment running.

We are now bringing this experiment "out of the closet" into the glare of
public scrutiny on Vortex.  We invite all interested parties to study the
descriptive material and join with us to make this experiment work.  A lot
of you have been studying BLP's work for some time now and we expect you to
make some constructive suggestions for this experiment.  

As the experiment progresses we will publish all the results so everyone
can share in the glory...or disappointment, as the case may be.

Thanks in advance,


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 03:18:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12407;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:15:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:15:14 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:13:54 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a28d31.206796691 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <349B061D.67BD earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <349B061D.67BD earthlink.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CrhEE.0.n13.0Zwcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14065
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:17 -0600, Rich Murray wrote:
[snip]
>As I understand it the Arata-Zhang cathode consists of a metal capsule
>filled with varying amounts of Pd black.  The key assertion with regard
>to the detected 3He and 4He as reaction products is that they are found
>internal to the Pd black and are released only at a very elevated
>temperature.
>
>Is it not obvious (and possibly very significant) that in this
>configuration the Pd black where the reaction is thought to occur is
>never in contact with the electrolyte?  In fact this design clearly
>reduces the role of the electrolysis to nothing more than an indirect
>means for supply gas to pressurize the interior of the capsule.  I

Not necessarily so. If Mills is correct, then it is possible that
highly shrunken deuterinos are created during the electrolysis.
These could (given their very small size) easily migrate through the
outer metal to the powdered Pd within.

>should think any speculation about a role for lithium in the nuclear
>process can now be laid to rest, for example.  I rather doubt that the

Therefore this conclusion can not necessarily be drawn.
[snip]
>Finally let's not forget some basic nuclear reaction physics.  If I make
>4He from deuterium there is a simple relationship between the
>composition of the input and that of the output.  For the chemists among
>us, think about Dalton's law for nuclear reactions.  It's two deuterons
>to make one 4He, right?  Now suppose I make 3He instead?  How do you get
>the numbers to work out when you make 3He from deuterium?

The reactions involved may in fact not be quite as simple as Dick
would have us believe. 

A possible reaction might be 

Pd105 + D -> He3 + Fe58 + K46 + 7.36 MeV

Followed by 

K46 -> Ca46 + 7.7 MeV (Beta decay 1/2 life = 105 sec.)

With such a short half life, only 1 in 10^11 of the original K46 atoms
would still be present after 1 hour. This means that most would decay
during the course of the experiment itself, and by the time one got
around to opening the cathode, almost nothing radioactive would be
left to measure.
This is obviously just one insignificant possibility. There may be
others, that match the measurements more closely.
Note that both reactions together have an energy yield of about 15 MeV
/ deuteron, or 30 MeV / pair. This is roughly the same as the D + D ->
He4 reaction energy, and (possibly?) still within the limits of
accuracy of the measurements.
I chose the above reaction pretty much at random, because I couldn't
really be bothered looking for one that only had stable reaction
products.

> 
>Isn't there a bit of a problem because two deuterons make one 3He with a
>neutron left over?   Where does the extra neutron go?
>
>Dick Blue"
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 03:30:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04990;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:27:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:27:40 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:27:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a3aaa1.214334060 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"R61c92.0.uD1.hkwcq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14066
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 01:29:12 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
[snip]
>public scrutiny on Vortex.  We invite all interested parties to study the
>descriptive material and join with us to make this experiment work.  A lot
>of you have been studying BLP's work for some time now and we expect you to
>make some constructive suggestions for this experiment.  
[snip]
Scott,

I presume that the whole thing will be kept at a constant high
external temp. to ensure that the potassium salt doesn't "condense on
the walls" ? :)

(Regulated hot oil bath?)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 03:38:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14911;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:34:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 03:34:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:30:20 -0500
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
To: Vortex Mail <vortex-l mail.eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199712200632_MC2-2CA8-3D28 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"evkJv1.0.ve3.7rwcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14067
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>> The only way in which the Pd black inside the capsule can be effectively
>loaded to saturation with deuterium is by exposure to the deuterium
>gas at high pressure inside the capsule.  The electrolysis and
>electrolysis current can play no direct role so why not eliminate them
>entirely? <<

Just a thought Vo folks.

If the above from Rich Murray is correct then this gives some credence to
the cavitation approach where very high pressures are created by the
implosion of the bubbles.

Has anyone used cavitation with a conc. solution of D2O and  Pd black on
the electrode?  Cheaper than a pump!

Norman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 06:41:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26897;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:37:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:37:33 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <349BD63A.30834BCE verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:29:14 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Santa Analysis (read on your off company time)
References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5E7 xch-cpc-02>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hzpAK3.0.Aa6.hWzcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14068
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> 
> Just in case some kid ask you if there is a Santa (from an
> engineer's point of view or analysis)!

[snip]

> V.  Therefore, if Santa did exist, he's dead now.
>
> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Somebody seems forgotten new technologies as cloning and teleportation in his analysis.

Millions of Santa clones. Is there any engineering problem here?



All of 235 clones of hamdi ucar,

(How would be otherwise to post too many letters?)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 07:05:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29016;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:03:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:03:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:57:01 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: General idea RQM
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971220093034.6640C-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"sJwso1.0.I57.puzcq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14069
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear Vo.,

	I looked at the RQM site when we all first heard about it on 
Vortex. I asked questions and tried to figure out what everyone was 
talking about.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

	1] the key experiment is the one indicated in pictures in sites 
where magnet and coils are translated by one another by means of stepping 
motors controlled by computer.  This motion which is carefully controlled 
results in 3 to 5 microVolts of out put.
	2] The above is representative of how RQM works, but we do not 
have any detail about the scaling up.

	Correct?


				JHS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 07:16:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29885;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 07:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349BE0BD.3E0B interlaced.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:14:05 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"jkElh.0.sI7.b3-cq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14070
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:

(snip)
> 
 We invite all interested parties to study the
> descriptive material and join with us to make this experiment work. 

Nice page, Scott!  However, I suggest that you search diligently for a
photo of the BLP guys in their lab during a test run.  It seems
absolutely necessary that you hold your mouth in exactly the same shape
as they did during their runs.  Now, I know you haven't had the years
of necessary experience to nail this critical mouth-hold so look forward
to many days of in-front-of-the-mirror time to perfect it.  Any initial
negative results will obviously be due to this problem - but we have
faith in your eventual mastery of the necessary facial contortions.

Good hunting, good luck, and remember, I told you so.

Merry Christmas,

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 08:09:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00500;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:03:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:03:15 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:02:00 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971220160645206.AAA127 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZMNj82.0.k7.2n-cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14071
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gentlemen, welcome to the next act of our ongoing drama. 

Before I proceed, please take note of the following items: 

1) It is really useful to study the A&Z paper; it has all kinds of
interesting information.
2) The extensive debate with Rich has been over 2 pages of a 56 page report
and 4 of 28 figures.
3) Dick Blue apparently does not have a copy of the report and is working
from information posted by Rich containing his and my critiques.
4) Early in his critique, Rich did find some key words, but didn't follow
up: "spillover" and "Sievertz law".
5) A&Z are well ahead of all critics so far. You just have to study the
paper and follow the tracks in the sand. Juamnji lies buried just ahead!
6) It is also useful to be familiar with P&F's work from the beginning.

Now to the latest Rich Murray/Dick Blue critique. 

> Vorts,  here is a sanitized post by Dick Blue.  What bugs me is that I
> didn't think of this obvious angle myself.  I was blinded by the
> preconception that an experiment with an anode, cathode, electrolyte,
> and current flow was an electrolysis experiment.

What Rich has forgotten, or never knew, is the original thinking of P&F,
which can be found on p45 of Gene Mallove's "Fire from Ice". Quoting,
"Fleischmann and Pons knew that the "effective pressures" of hydrogen
within metal lattices were well-nigh astronomical, if the high "chemical
potentials" in the lattice were appropriately interpreted. Think of
astronomical pressures, and immediately fusion comes to mind --
particularly when hydrogen isotopes are the atoms being pressured" 

We will come to the astronomical pressures below. P&F being
electrochemists, used electrochemistry to drive D nuclei into the Pd
cathode to achieve what is now known as loading. The purpose of the P&F
cell is not to electrolyze water or D2O2, but to drive D and H into a metal
lattice. Everything else is a byproduct, a distraction to those who don't
understand the fundamental purpose. Russ George and Roger Stringham use a
different method, ultrasonic cavitation, to achieve the same end. 

Now Dick Blue speaks: 
 
> "It seems obvious to me that the Arata and Zhang experiments differ
> significantly from all other CF investigations because they employ
> a unique cathode design, yet no one seems to have picked up on any
> of the implications of this design.

A&Z certainly did. Score one for Dick, working without the actual paper.
It's in the paper, but Rich did not understand it, and our discussion
centered on the calorimetry.

> As I understand it the Arata-Zhang cathode consists of a metal capsule
> filled with varying amounts of Pd black.  The key assertion with regard
> to the detected 3He and 4He as reaction products is that they are found
> internal to the Pd black and are released only at a very elevated
> temperature.

That is correct.
 
> Is it not obvious (and possibly very significant) that in this
> configuration the Pd black where the reaction is thought to occur is
> never in contact with the electrolyte?  In fact this design clearly
> reduces the role of the electrolysis to nothing more than an indirect
> means for supply gas to pressurize the interior of the capsule. 

That is almost correct. The process which gets the D into the Pd-black
particles involves other dynamics, which Arata has discussed at length in
this and other papers. The gas inside the capsule does reach high levels,
but I believe this is a secondary effect, not the primary. 

P&F from the beginning conceived and used electrolysis as a pump. Arata
goes further. 

> I
> should think any speculation about a role for lithium in the nuclear
> process can now be laid to rest, for example. 

Not quite. Fleischmann has been quoted as noticing that Li seems to help
the process in solid Pd cathodes, and Tom Stolper noted that Li and Pd can
form the catalytic couple producing hydrinos. So there may be another
process at work in some P&F cells. However, A&Z follow another path which
has considerable support in the paper. 

 I rather doubt that the
> Pd black makes any contact with lithium or any other special ingredients
> that may be present in the electrolyte.

Yes, that seems so.

> The fact that Pd black is separated from the electrolyte by the walls of
> a capsule further removes any likelyhood that such parameters as current
> density have any significance for the reaction rate.  Little or no
> current will actually pass through the Pd black.

Yes, that is correct. The Pd black is electrically shielded.

> So, perhaps unwittingly, Arata and Zhang have demystified the cold
> fusion reaction process by eliminating a host of possible effects that
> have been the subject of speculation for years.  The question I then
> raise is why not complete the simplification of the experimental design
> to eliminate what are now obviously extraneous complication features.

I wouldn't accuse of A&Z of doing anything unwittingly with respect to this
experiment.
 
> The only way in which the Pd black inside the capsule can be effectively
> loaded to saturation with deuterium is by exposure to the deuterium
> gas at high pressure inside the capsule.  The electrolysis and
> electrolysis current can play no direct role so why not eliminate them
> entirely? 

We're getting close to the nub of the matter. Pay attention now. 
 
> The electrolysis current and resulting power input just add to the
> complexity of calorimetry.  With that power input gone any heat of
> reaction presents a much cleaner measurement as there is no input power
> to confuse the issue.

Good thought, except for.....(keep going)

> Once it is recognized that gas pressure in the capsule is the
> controlling parameter for the experiment then a direct pressurization
> with gas is the obvious way to do the experiment.

But just what pressure is needed? And is there a real purpose in using Pd
black? Read on.
What is required is a careful study of Fig 7 of A&Z, and the descriptive
legend underneath. Quoting: 
------------
In the right side diagram {schematically showing the capsule wall with a
few particles of Pd black contact} deuterium concentration inside outer
cathode {the capsule shell} [A], and the inner cathode, Pd-black [B] are
significantly different. [A] is controlled by expanded "Sievertz law" and
[B] is by "spillover effect" which breaks "Sievertz law". This reason is
that when [A] { concentration of D in the capsule shell} is 90%, deuterium
pressure inside the cathode is required over one hundred thousand
atmospheres by "Sievertz law", on the contrary [B] {D concentration in the
Pd-black} becomes almost 100% instantaneously, if {particles are} within
100 Angstrom in size, such as so called "Atom Cluster". By the way ,
deuterium pressure inside our DS cathode can easily achieve some thousand
atmospheres.
-----------
The Sievertz law relates gas pressure outside a metal lattice to the
concentration of that gas within the lattice. To achieve the 90% loading
required for the P&F effect, the pressure has to be "over one hundred
thousand atmospheres". 

This is why P&F chose electrolysis as a pumping mechanism. This is why
Scott Little's suggestion of a thousand-atmosphere Haskill pump is
inadequate by a factor of 100. 

The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand. But A&Z seem to say that
electrolysis can drive D into the capsule shell, and it diffuses into the
inner space containing the Pd-black, and then powerfully into the Pd-black.
This is discussed at length in Appendix 1, pp. 46-7: 
------------------
"...The concentration of deuterium ions in pd-black is very much higher
than in the outer cathode. The authors have named this rapid, high-density
build-up of [in?} fine particles "pumping-up action" under
"Spillover-effect". The strength of this phenomenon is determined by the
particle size and material elements. {Illustrated in Fig 7 - MC} Called the
'spillover effect", it is based on the dynamic catalyzing reaction of fine
particles. [ref. to a paper, " on Spillover" in the 3rd ICCF]. None of
these phenomena occur with the conventionally used "SS-cathode" (single
structure cathode: shaped in a plate, rod, etc....) and the only behavior
of deuterium is normal dispersion....
-------------------
Arata has been working with this cathode structure for many years, as Jed
has noted. it has unusual properties, to be studied, not glibly summarized.


> Now that we are focussed on the question of gas pressure within the
> capsule I'd like to ask a question of those who best informed about the
> structure of the Arata-Zhang cathode? 

A&Z, obviously. Read the paper, and A&Z's previous work, for they have been
building up to this.

> What is your estimate of the
> bursting pressure of said capsule and how does that compare with the
> pressures quoted by A-Z?  I am just a little concerned that my
> suggestion that the measurements be repeated with simple direct
> pressurization might lead someone inexperienced with high-pressure
> systems into doing something foolish.  If you do decide to construct
> such a system it must be hydrostatically tested under safe conditions
> before being put into use!!!

See references to the hundred thousand atmospheres needed above. 
 
> Even the hydrostatic testing of the capsule (which I assume Arata and
> Zhang have done) may not be sufficienty to insure safe operation under
> the condition of their experiment. 

They did something quite different. Dick is here at a disadvantage, not
having the actual A&Z paper at hand, nor having researched A&Z's earlier
work. 

> One must not forget that the
> saturation of the capsule walls with hydrogen can have a very marked
> effect on the mechanical properties of the metal.

The deuterium ions diffuse into the Pd-black in the capsule. Heavy loading
does indeed affect the metallurgical properties of the cathodes, which has
been a problem with CF experimenters. One of the advantages of the
Patterson beads is that the spherical form of the films is well suited to
withstanding the stresses due to high loading. 

> Finally let's not forget some basic nuclear reaction physics.  If I make
> 4He from deuterium there is a simple relationship between the
> composition of the input and that of the output.  For the chemists among
> us, think about Dalton's law for nuclear reactions.  It's two deuterons
> to make one 4He, right?  Now suppose I make 3He instead?  How do you get
> the numbers to work out when you make 3He from deuterium?
>  
> Isn't there a bit of a problem because two deuterons make one 3He with a
> neutron left over?   Where does the extra neutron go?

Dick is again at a disadvantage not having the A&Z paper. Fig 3 is a chart
showing a variety of known two-body and possible unknown multi-body
reaction paths leading to 4He and 3He, some with the release of gamma
radiation. 

A substantial portion of the A&Z paper is devoted to a discussion of
possible phenomena in the heavy deuterated metal lattice in the Pd-black
and the creation of "Lattice Halls" in which very localized plasma
reactions take place. One might think of nanoscopic hot fusion reactions
taking place inside the lattice. Now the reactions are very complex, and a
simple application of observations of reaction paths in vacuum plasmas will
not serve. 

To summarize, Dick's notion of bypassing the complexities of electrolysis
by direct pressurization runs into the 10^5 atm. problem, which was why P&F
chose electrolysis in the first place. A&Z have (conceptually at least)
been there, done that and gone on to utilize the special properties of
Pd-black to achieve rapid, dense loading. This "spillover effect" loading
does generate substantial pressure inside the capsule, which is the point
of Fig 9. However, the pressure generated is a byproduct in a sense, in
that 10^3 atm. will not produce the necessary loading in an ordinary Pd
cathode. 

I suggest that Rich send to Dick the **full** text of the A&Z paper. I also
suggest that Dick study it. Jed has mentioned that he has often sent papers
to Dick, with no evidence that they were studied and understood. 
 
A few people in Vortex have asked me for copies of the A&Z paper, and I
have complied. I will do so for others who will make the effort to study
its contents. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 08:10:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01508;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:07:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:07:09 -0800
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:46:58 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712201050_MC2-2CA8-45C0 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"_Wi_y.0.PN.iq-cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14072
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Dick Blue thinks he is the first person to realize that the Arata is doing a
gas loading experiment. He wrote:

     It seems obvious to me that the Arata and Zhang experiments differ
     significantly from all other CF investigations because they employ a
     unique cathode design, yet no one seems to have picked up on any of the
     implications of this design.

Nobody noticed? That's ridiculous.

Successful gas loading experiments with titanium were performed *in the first
weeks* after the 1989 announcement at two U.S. National Labs. Many other gas
loading experiments have been reported. Anyone the least bit familiar with the
literature would know that there are many reports of metal reaction alone,
without lithium or other additives, in experiments using gas loading, ion
beams, proton conductors, and other methods besides electrolysis. Many people
reject Fleischmann's lithium hypothesis on this basis. Others say lithium may
be help with electrolysis by sealing the metal surface to stop out-gassing.
Still others say that there is evidence that different kinds of CF reactions
can occur, and Li may play a role in some kinds.


     The electrolysis current and resulting power input just add to the
     complexity of calorimetry.  With that power input gone any heat of
     reaction presents a much cleaner measurement as there is no input power
     to confuse the issue.

There is no complexity and no confusion. It is easy to measure input power.
People have been measuring direct current electricity with confidence for 160
years.


     Once it is recognized that gas pressure in the capsule is the
     controlling parameter for the experiment then a direct pressurization
     with gas is the obvious way to do the experiment.

It is not obvious. As Scott Little found out, that would add $10,000 to the
cost of the experiment for the high pressure pump. It also adds a new set of
complications and new machines that can and will break. Electrolysis, when
performed properly, creates a microscopic pump producing far greater pressure
than most mechanical pumps. There is a lot to be said for electrolysis. For
one thing, the "pump" and everything else is small, self-contained, and sealed
inside the cell, so all energy inputs are accounted for. Dick Blue would
probably say that in gas loading and ion beam experiments the energy is added
to the system by the gas pump motor or ion beam power supplies.

These "revelations" that Dick Blue, Rich Murray and Scott Little periodically
come up are pathetic. Gene Mallove wrote about them years ago in "Fire from
Ice." Ed Storms described them in his periodic reviews of the field. I knew
about them, and discussed them, in the first months I researched this field.
These people miss obvious stuff like this because they never read the
literature. They miss things that were spelled out years ago by experienced
authors. You do not have to rediscover every single detail yourself. You do
not have to wander in the wilderness. It is okay to take a shortcut by
reading what other people say.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 08:49:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09086;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:45:55 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <faebe31e.349bf405 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:36:19 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"5JC7N2.0.uD2.2P_cq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14073
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/19/97 11:25:40 PM, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

<<The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is said
to
>consist of "virtual photons." 

  OK. As long as there is not any amount of real energy
then we are in agreement.   >>

The latter is not the case.  Photons have real energy.  It's just that it's in
the form of field energy, not mass energy.  The reality of it is shown in the
Casimir effect, shown in Milonni's paper I recommended in an earlier post.
Not only is the energy there, but the momentum carried by the photons
reflecting off the plates is what is responsible for the Casimir effect, so
momentum in the vacuum is real as well.  Please look at Milonni's paper
"Radiation pressure from the vacuum: Physical interpretation of the Casimir
effect."

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 10:11:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21370;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:07:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:07:32 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <8d49735b.349c0209 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:36:07 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"LRFya2.0.kD5.Yb0dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14074
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Scott,
I viewed  http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html
very nice setup.
One comment/question though.  In reading the BLP stuff
I have seen mentioned that "H2 gas flowing over the filiment
disassociats H2  to H atoms". Is your gas inlet tubing arranged
so that gas introduced to the cell flows over/past/around the
hot ~2000k filiment?
I dont know if this is important but it wasn't clear from looking
at the (beautiful) photos on your website.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 11:03:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27085;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971220120407.006c04fc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:04:07 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
In-Reply-To: <34a3aaa1.214334060 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
 <3.0.1.32.19971220012912.006bcffc mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"So-yI3.0.7d6.zM1dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14075
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 11:27 AM 12/20/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I presume that the whole thing will be kept at a constant high
>external temp. to ensure that the potassium salt doesn't "condense on
>the walls" ?

This is an important point, Robin.  I'm assuming that the fiberglass
insulation between the chamber and the water-flow heat exchanger will allow
the chamber walls to run rather hot.  As far as I can tell, BLP's version
of the experiment is the same in this respect.  I will certainly monitor
the temperature of the chamber walls with a thermocouple or two attached to
the exterior surfaces.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 11:17:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31262;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:12:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:12:08 -0800
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971220190953.008e3fe8 freeway.net>
X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:09:53 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Resent-Message-ID: <"uHAe92.0.Oe7.7Y1dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14076
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:29 AM 12/20/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>Gnorts,
>
>We are underway with a serious effort to replicate one of the more
>spectacular excess heat results of BlackLight Power.  The following address:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html
>
>
Some text seems to be missing when I looked at your website.  There are
blank gray areas with text starting in mid sentence.

You have a neat looking system.

Why use a wire mesh basket to hold the KNO3?  If the KNO3 melts won't you
have a mess on your hands?

I am baffled at why 2 torr should be the optimum pressure.  Is this because
the mean free path of the produced hydrogen atom is much greater than at 760
torr?  If this is critical then you may want to put the filament as close as
practical to the KNO3. 

The mass of the reactor is large with respect to the mass of the reactants.
Will this not require a large excess heat to heat this mass to a measurably
significant delta T?

I don't know the answer to these questions.  They are thoughts that occur to
me as I continue to get negative results.

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 11:24:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00294;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:22:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 11:22:19 -0800
Message-Id: <349C1933.E95BB759 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:15:00 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Sci. paper on solitons and inexhaustible source of energy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"loe9T.0.R4.fh1dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14077
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear soliton lovers,

A paper on high energy physics phenomenology available at
http://xxx.lanl.gov  as hep-ph/9707423

New physics in a nutshell, or Q-ball as a power plant

Authors: Gia Dvali, Alexander Kusenko, Mikhail Shaposhnikov (CERN)
Comments: 13 pages, 2 figures (eps) included
Report-no: CERN-TH/97-172

     Future experiments may discover new scalar particles with global charges and couplings that allow for
     solitonic states. If the effective potential has flat directions, the scalar VEV inside a large Q-ball can
     exceed the particle mass by many orders of magnitude. Models with low-energy supersymmetry
     breaking generically have both the scalars carrying some global charges, and the flat directions. The
     Q-ball interior can, therefore, provide an environment for exploring physics far beyond the TeV scale
     without the need for building colliders of ever-increasing energies. Some Standard Model processes,
     otherwise strongly suppressed, can also be studied inside the soliton, where the SU(2) symmetry can
     be restored, and the quark confinement may be absent. Baryon number violating processes catalyzed
     by the large VEV inside the Q-ball can provide an inexhaustible energy resource.

Solitonicly yours,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 12:41:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12767;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:39:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:39:06 -0800
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:38:50 -0800
Message-Id: <199712202038.MAA25667 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Sci. paper on solitons and inexhaustible source of energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"HXe5t.0.K73.fp2dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14078
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Dear soliton lovers,
>
>A paper on high energy physics phenomenology available at
>http://xxx.lanl.gov  as hep-ph/9707423
>

Thanks for the post.

>     Future experiments may discover new scalar particles with global
charges and couplings that allow for
>     solitonic states. If the effective potential has flat directions, the
scalar VEV inside a large Q-ball can
>     exceed the particle mass by many orders of magnitude. Models with
low-energy supersymmetry
>     breaking generically have both the scalars carrying some global
charges, and the flat directions. The
>     Q-ball interior can, therefore, provide an environment for exploring
physics far beyond the TeV scale
>     without the need for building colliders of ever-increasing energies.

I agree here.  If you study the geometry of spacetime and soliton
structures, you are studying the sub structure to sub atomic "matter".  In
the soliton models, what we think of as matter simply reduces to localized
wave structures in a spacetime wave structure.  ie, you don't have empty
space, time, particles and fields.  Instead, you have just one wave
structure permeating all of the universe.  In regions where there are non
linear density gradients sufficient to induce a convergence to the spacetime
wave energy, you wind up with a soliton, and thus we think of that sort of
region as "matter".

For another web site with images and movies, search for ;

"Light Bullet Home Page"

There you will find many images and sequences of soliton interactions.

the only think their solitons lack is a sub structure to which to couple, ie
spacetime.  Their solitons are able to attract and repulse and "fuse" into
composite soliton structures.  If they additionally had an acoustic manifold
of standing waves, they would have spacetime to which all solitons could
couple and synchronize their oscillations.  With that, you then get the
nuclear force when two solitons interact directly, an electric force when
they dump wave energy from soliton to spacetime and back to soliton again.
And you get gravitation as a non linear filtering of incident wave energy
coming from distant frequency shifted solitons, ie from matter from the deep
universe.

You also get the weak interaction as a conservation of phase angular
momentum in composite soliton structures.

Oh yeah, you get one more thing too.  In fusion interactions, the way you
wind up with accelerations is via emission of some of the "stuff" of the
solitons.  This is fundamentally different from the way physicists think
fusion mass to energy conversions occur.  ie, the soliton model demands that
the stuff of the solitons be emitted, rather than be "non conserved" as is
believed today with regard to mass.

Thus, for new born stars using the current models, we expect nothing wierd
outside of them as they heat up.  For the soliton model, we expect an
emission of the stuff of the solitons, ie aether.  And this must induce a
distortion to the spacetime acoustic topology along the line of the
emissions.  The path of least resistance is the axis of rotation, so the
maximum spacetime distortions will manifest along that axis, and we must
expect jets of matter flung outward by that distortion due to aether flow.
We indeed find jets emerge at stellar birth.

Later, Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 13:47:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22195;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:42:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:42:14 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <b452bc9e.349c3b71 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:41:02 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"tcMBA3.0.VQ5.qk3dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14079
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott,
Another thought on your BLP replication effort.

Methinks there should be a way to exactly control the amount 
of gas (in cc's) admitted to the test chamber. I see you will be 
monitoring gas injection by pressure but a redundent check
would be desirable.
Also, in another post (Robin?) it was questioned why a 200 mesh
stainless steel boat for the KNO3.  Would not a ceramic boat 
serve better?  I too fear the mess from melting catilyst.  
Nice job on the welding job though!

If this proves out maybe you could consider building a
cell that runs at 2000c :-)

I also dropped a line to Dr. Mills saying it would be nice of
him if he would communicate with you on this effort.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 13:48:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23214;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:44:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:44:46 -0800
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:44:04 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712202144.PAA28860 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall)
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"_N3ay.0.dg5.Dn3dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14080
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

HP wrote: 

snip

>Not only is the energy there, but the momentum carried by the photons
>reflecting off the plates is what is responsible for the Casimir 
>effect, so momentum in the vacuum is real as well.  Please look at 
>Milonni's paper "Radiation pressure from the vacuum: Physical 
>interpretation of the Casimir effect."
>
>Best regards,
>Hal Puthoff

Hal, 

In classic Newtonian mechanics momentum = mv.  In the quantum realm, if 
photons are massless how do they carry momentum?  Are we dealing with 
wave partical duality again where quanticized photons are expressed as 
partical masses with momenta?

RWW

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 15:46:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10399;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:41:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 15:41:25 -0800
Message-ID: <349C57AE.472E interlaced.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:41:34 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <199712202144.PAA28860 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nsR5t2.0.PY2.aU5dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14081
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Richard Wayne Wall wrote:
> 
> HP wrote:
> 
> snip
> 
> >Not only is the energy there, but the momentum carried by the photons
> >reflecting off the plates is what is responsible for the Casimir
> >effect, so momentum in the vacuum is real as well.  Please look at
> >Milonni's paper "Radiation pressure from the vacuum: Physical
> >interpretation of the Casimir effect."
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Hal Puthoff
> 
> Hal,
> 
> In classic Newtonian mechanics momentum = mv.  In the quantum realm, if
> photons are massless how do they carry momentum?  Are we dealing with
> wave partical duality again where quanticized photons are expressed as
> partical masses with momenta?
> 
> RWW

I still don't see why we can't just say that photons have no rest mass
because PHOTONS ARE NEVER AT REST!  If a photon carries an energy of
E, then why can't we just say that it has an ENERGY MASS of:

	m = E/c^2 .

Then, if we multiply the energy mass, m, of a photon by its velocity, c,
we get its momentum, p as:
	
	p = E/c^2  X  c  =  E/c      as the momentum of a photon.

My physics textbook says the momentum of a photon is given by:

	p = E/c .

So, what's the problem?  The problem, it seems to me, is in talking
about the rest mass of a thing that is never at rest!!

Photons have gravity too.  In the early universe, before radiation
energy condensed into matter, there was plenty of gravity - all of it
caused by the energy of photons.  Am I missing something?
(As I recall, I got stomped on before for this simplistic view.)

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 16:24:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02327;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:19:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:19:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <b65145a6.349c601b aol.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:17:29 EST
To: rwall ix.netcom.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"j_9wp3.0.Fa.926dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14082
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/20/97 10:13:11 PM, rwall ix.netcom.com wrote:

<<In classic Newtonian mechanics momentum = mv.  In the quantum realm, if 
photons are massless how do they carry momentum? >>

The full relativistic expression for energy is E = sqrt[m^2 x c^4 + p^2 x
c^2], where m is the rest mass. For massless particles (m = 0), still get E =
pc.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 17:21:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08139;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:16:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:16:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <349C6C06.36A849F3 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:08:22 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <199712202144.PAA28860 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> <349C57AE.472E@interlaced.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ln_QG1.0.5_1.st6dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14083
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
[snip] 
> Photons have gravity too. 

I had previously accepted this with a straight forward logic and thought as this may a way to create particles from high energy photons. 
But now, energy-gravity relation offered by GR not seems me the only possible way. So I wrote my own hypothesis. :-)

> In the early universe, before radiation
> energy condensed into matter, there was plenty of gravity - all of it
> caused by the energy of photons.  Am I missing something?
> (As I recall, I got stomped on before for this simplistic view.)
> 
> Frank Stenger

Quantum physicists who describe Big bang, inflation, etc. does not bother too much with gravitation, even with limit of speed c. They probably saying the gravitational interactions are not efficient on quantum era. 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 19:14:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07899;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:10:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:10:52 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:07:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: "Bifilar Waveguide"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"wgtY71.0.Fx1.xY8dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14084
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Bob Flower and I are building a "Bifilar Waveguide" -- ie, a bifilar 
coil with distributed capacitance -- as follows: two 200 ft rolls 
of aluminum foil, separated by two rolls of Glad Wrap,  all wound 
around a hollow core of PVC pipe.
 
In other words, the Al foil acts as the plates of the capacitance, 
and also as the conductor of the inductance. Since both L and C are 
distributed, we have a waveguide of sorts.

We want to see what this does to square waveforms from a signal 
generator, and then subject it to high energy pulses generated from 
our PAGD apparatus.

1. Has anyone built a coil like this before -- ie a bifilar coil with 
distributed capacitance? 

2. Suggestions for good electrical bonding of the foil ends?

3. Will a 600 volt potential arc through the Glad Wrap? Any
suggestions for alternate dielectric materials?  Clear polyethylene
film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
wide x several hundred feet long?

Comments?  Complaints?

Thanks, and Happy Holidays

Jeff and Bob


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 20:07:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13128;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:03:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:03:35 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971220220348.006cc830 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:03:48 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
In-Reply-To: <8d49735b.349c0209 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"QRyPm2.0.2D3.LK9dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14085
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vince wrote:

>I have seen mentioned that "H2 gas flowing over the filiment
>disassociats H2  to H atoms".

Good point.  I was just planning to fill the chamber and turn on the
filament.  Does anybody know if the H has to be FLOWING?

Ed Strojny wrote:

>Why use a wire mesh basket to hold the KNO3?  If the KNO3 melts won't you
>have a mess on your hands?

You know, Ed, I think you are right...especially if the idea is to vaporize
some of the KNO3.  I think we will change to a solid SS cup.  Thanks!

Vince wrote again:

>Methinks there should be a way to exactly control the amount 
>of gas (in cc's) admitted to the test chamber.

Filling a known volume chamber to a known pressure will enable us to calc
the moles of H present.  Further, we can correlate the pressure rise with
the chamber temp.  If we see pressure reductions after reaching operature
temperature and turning on the filament, that'll quantify the H
consumption.  Is that what you were after?

>I also dropped a line to Dr. Mills saying it would be nice of
>him if he would communicate with you on this effort.

Thank you.  We would certainly welcome direct assistance!


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 21:25:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25594;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:22:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:22:24 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <3ed4ad5c.349ca605 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:15:47 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"KD4J2.0.qF6.FUAdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14086
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-20 23:08:51 EST, you write:

<< Vince wrote:
 
 >I have seen mentioned that "H2 gas flowing over the filiment
 >disassociats H2  to H atoms".
 
 Good point.  I was just planning to fill the chamber and turn on the
 filament.  Does anybody know if the H has to be FLOWING?
  >>
>From the BLP website:
In the section New Fractional Quantum Energy Levels
of Hydrogen Part II Excess Heat... Ionic Hydrogen,
Paragraph C.  A hydrogen spillover catalyst ......

This section deals with the preparation of the catalyst Scott.
It's a must read before doing the experiment.
BLP does not use pure KNO3. They disolve it in water and 
mix with graphitic carbon and 1% Pd..
Then in paragraph D, words excess heat from FLOWING 
hydrogen in the presence of ..... catalyst....

The above was in the section describing the Calvet
Calorimeter Methods.

One strange thing though. On page 3 (this is the page with
a schematic of the Calvet cell)  In the text I quote the following:

"....The pressure and flow rate were adjusted to maximize the 
output power,and the optimal values were about 40 PSI and 
10 cc/min., respectively. The data was recorded ......."  <snip>

That 40 PSI is what I am wondering about.

Regards,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 21:54:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06086;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:50:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:50:55 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971220235016.006c9d44 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:50:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
In-Reply-To: <3ed4ad5c.349ca605 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"gPsgJ.0._U1.xuAdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14087
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:15 AM 12/21/97 EST, VCockeram wrote:

>BLP does not use pure KNO3. They disolve it in water and 
>mix with graphitic carbon and 1% Pd..

I've already purchased some 1%-Pd-on-graphite catalyst from Aldrich as a
fall back in case the plain KNO3 doesn't work.  I also got some plain
activated carbon to make a stab at the KNO3-on-carbon catalyst they
mention.  However, 
there are experiments on the BLP web page where they just say KNO3 (or KNO2).

>That 40 PSI is what I am wondering about.

No kidding!  That's a ways from 2 torr, isn't it!?   All these variations
in the parameters are actually quite encouraging to me.  It looks like
anytime you get H and K together with a heated filament good stuff can happen.

P.S.  The "graphitic" form of these catalysts may be more-or-less obsolete.
 I talked to Johnson-Matthey about it and they used to offer it but
discontinued it some time ago in favor of the activated carbon supports.
They could not refer me to a current manufacturer.  I wonder if it makes a
big difference?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 21:54:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06386;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:51:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:51:52 -0800 (PST)
To: gwatson microtronics.com.au
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:38:16 -0800
Subject: SMOT apology
Message-ID: <19971220.214052.11830.0.tv juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.38
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,12-13,16,21-28
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"yHs0q1.0.eZ1.qvAdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14088
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Greetings Greg Watson,

I have been considering the events of recent weeks and I think some of
the people on the VORTEX-L and FREENRG-L lists may owe you an apology.  I
include myself in that list, since my last email to you was quite upset
as a result of  your announcement of the environmental group taking over
your company and possibly trying to prevent you from sending out the SMOT
rollaround kits.

Greg, I literally spent hundreds of hours (ask my wife) last summer
trying to get a roll around.  I know what you must have gone through to
make a reproducible SMOT kit.  If you do manage to deliver rollaround
SMOT kits it will be a great achievment indeed.

Of all the many free energy researchers I have observed, and communicated
with, you have been the most open with your ideas, and have caught much
flack as a result.
I hope you can get through this ordeal with not too many bad feelings. 
If you can deliver working rollaround SMOT kits, it may be the spark that
starts a fire of revolution where ferromagnetism is one of several
avenues to tapping the great reserve of fluctuation energy that is all
around us.
A fire powered by the SEA OF ENERGY !

Hope to hear from you soon.

May God bless you and your family this holiday season and this next year.

Tim Vaughan

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 22:11:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02036;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:07:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:07:30 -0800
To: revtec ptd.net
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:57:45 -0800
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide" and PAGD
Message-ID: <19971220.215800.11830.2.tv juno.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.38
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,8-9,11-53
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"NT8rZ.0.bV.W8Bdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14089
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Did you say PAGD  apparatus, as in Pulsed Abnormal Glow discharge of
Paulo and Alexandra Correa ?

Please tell us more ?   Any results.  According to Paulo no one has
succeeded in replicating his work even though guy has been trying in a
way that he thinks is off course and wil not succeed.  Is that you ?

Paulo claims that he has disclosed all in his patents and it could be
replicated by someone "skilled in the art".

Because of its similarity to T.H. Moray, Leon Dragone, and Chernetskii, I
am very interested in the work of the Correa's.

By the way, the Correa web site (The Edge of Space) is at:
http://www.globalserve.net/~lambdac/

Best Holiday Wishes,

Tim Vaughan
( tv juno.com )


On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:07:34 -0500 jeff fink <revtec ptd.net> writes:
>Bob Flower and I are building a "Bifilar Waveguide" -- ie, a bifilar 
>coil with distributed capacitance -- as follows: two 200 ft rolls 
>of aluminum foil, separated by two rolls of Glad Wrap,  all wound 
>around a hollow core of PVC pipe.
> 
>In other words, the Al foil acts as the plates of the capacitance, 
>and also as the conductor of the inductance. Since both L and C are 
>distributed, we have a waveguide of sorts.
>
>We want to see what this does to square waveforms from a signal 
>generator, and then subject it to high energy pulses generated from 
>our PAGD apparatus.
>
>1. Has anyone built a coil like this before -- ie a bifilar coil with 
>distributed capacitance? 
>
>2. Suggestions for good electrical bonding of the foil ends?
>
>3. Will a 600 volt potential arc through the Glad Wrap? Any
>suggestions for alternate dielectric materials?  Clear polyethylene
>film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
>wide x several hundred feet long?
>
>Comments?  Complaints?
>
>Thanks, and Happy Holidays
>
>Jeff and Bob
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 22:26:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07025;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:25:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:25:49 -0800
From: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
Message-ID: <c4572c00.349cb54f aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:21:00 EST
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: Geosas aol.com
Subject: Mass epilepsy in Japan
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"cHOGZ.0.Yj1.hPBdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14090
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi there all -

No doubt about this.  When I was at Cambridge we had a lab.
assistant who became addicted to the strobe lamp and they
had to lock it away from him.  At about 14 Hz flash-rate he would
go into a trance and they had to take him to hospital to get him
out if it.

I myself have experienced a strange feeling when driving on
French roads with regularly-spaced trees, but a change in
speed stops it.  Which reminds me:

Q.: Why do the French plant trees along their roads?
A.:  So that the German army can march in the shade.

Cheers, Geo.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 20 23:21:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16841;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:18:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:18:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349CB4DE.4BE1 earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:19:10 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        claytor_t_n lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@amigo.net,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com,
        blue pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        droege fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, little@eden.com,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, tchubb@aol.com, z@ccyber.com,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        "nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil76002.1473"@compuserve.com,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, ceti_gcollins@msn.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, Lee_Hansen@byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov,
        chmjrm hofstra.edu
Subject: Sixth Arata Critique: cathode; Carrell posts (Part 2/2); Rothwell on Arata
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-h3Bo3.0.174.FBCdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14091
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

[Continuing third post by Carrell]

1) A&Z build a calorimeter and test it with electrolysis using a Pt
anode and Pt cathode. It shows a variation of +1, -2 W, average -0.7 W,
over the operating range. There is a net loss of heat, clearly no
artifacts, it is a 'good' cell, no? 
2) An Arata DS cathode (Pd capsule containing Pd black) is substituted
for the Pt cathode in the calorimeter. This is the only change.
3) Suddenly "artifacts" appear. Over 5 watts of excess power is produced
for thousands of hours. Integrated energy is in the hundreds of
megajoules of excess energy per cc of active material. Helium 3 and 4
are found in the cathode material. 

Simple logic associates this with the cathode, not the calorimeter, for
it showed no excess heat in calibration. The S/N ratio is about 5:1,
often higher. Indeed, Rich wants to test this cathode with calorimeters
which have given null results with Ragland cells, and therefore must be
'good' flow calorimeters, unlike A&Z's which must be 'bad' because they
showed an "artifact".

There is another explanation: the "artifact" is the P&F effect, fusing
deuterium nuclei to produce excess heat and 3He and 4He as illustrated
in the reaction pathways detailed in A&Z's paper. 

> That is what I was
> really driving at by the terms, "mediocre, completely out-moded
> calorimetry": I am suggesting that the most conservative hypothesis is
> that all flow calorimetry that yields mysterious excess heat is ipso
> facto "mediocre, completely out-moded calorimetry", 

In other words, only negative answers are correct? You mean your mind is
made up and you don't wnat to be confused by facts?

> even more so when
> the excess is only about 20%, far less than the months of impressive
> claims by many competent scientists, including Dennis Cravens, for the
> Ragland cell just a year ago.

Be careful. Ragland reported results. Others may have said "Ragland
said...." not "I saw...".
 
> Now, I have repeatedly called for disclosure of all details about the
> A&Z calorimetry, including such fundamentals as actual input powers,
> voltages, currents, and resistances, flow rates, actual in and out
> temperatures, the composition and dimensions of the cell and the cooling  circuit, the number and timing of calibrations, any blank runs, the data for all cathodes, the exact composition, mass, construction of the  cathodes, and more, without which no o
ne can establish the competence of  the calorimetry.  

> I am not reassured when I am told that A&Z are highly
> competent scientists,

You doubt his reputation because details you want aren't in a report
crammed with very vital information and a theoretical discussion? 

> when this kind of detail, so easily provided, so
> essential, is missing from the 56-page report, where the eminent Arata
> presumably had limitless lien to present whatever he wanted,  hoping to  herald a radical, stunning scientific coup.

And you want him to clutter his paper with detail taken care of by
calibration? 

>   I hope to hear that they  are available and willing to communicate these details.

And just what would you do with the information if you had it? 
 
> It is clear that Carrell and Rothwell do not share my concerns in the
> least.  So, gentlemen, we have reached an impasse, a Mexican stand-off,  which only competent attempts at replication can resolve.]  End of long  comment by Murray.   

I am satisfied that the paper represents thorough experimental work and
the results are supported by the data presented. 

> Continuing the comments by Mike Carrell:
> "Now Jed may not have quoted the exact words, but Rich's own words are
> of the same intent and meaning. In the last quote his misconceptions
> about the effect of recombiner had already been corrected by Scott. Rich  has persisted until my last discussion in seeing only noise in the A&Z  data.  That failed [Murray: I never conceded this!],

Quite apparently. Rich will continue to see noise and only noise. Of
course there is noise, but it is much less than the signal. 

> and he went on to
> discuss Fig 9 in more temperate style, but equally off target, even
> after I had told him that it has nothing to do with calorimetry.
> [Murray: I don't understand how Fig.9 could have nothing to do with flow  calorimetry, when it clearly presents excess heat against time for 1600 hours in a flow calorimeter that was turned off and on three times.] 

Rich did not and does not understand the purpose of Fig 9, for it shows
something about the processes inside the cathode capsule. The cell power
data certainly was obtained by flow calorimetry. And it clearly shows
that cell power is related to the internal cell pressure, which in turn
has theoretical significance.  

> He
> was, indeed, a bit dense [Murray: Blockheaded, actually.] about the
> presumption that a massive power failure might have produced the
> pressure variations. [Wait a second, here, Fig. 9 shows that the cathode  Pd-Black pressure dropped almost to zero on 2 of the 3 unexplained power  shut-offs.]"  End of quote from Mike Carrell, with comments added just  now by Rich Murray.

Well, of course, that's the point. You shut off the electrolysis power.
No more D is being driven into the cathode. There is D already in the
capsule and the LENR are going on and do not immediately stop, but slow
down as the reactions consume the free D. The capsule cools off inside
and the pressure drops. This shows a relationship between internal
pressure and the reaction rate. What is surprising? Why shouldn't the
reaction cool off eventually? 

There are other reports of P&F and Patterson cells in which the heat
production does not stop when the electrolysis drive stops. Why should
this surprise? It all has to do with loading. Once loaded, the reactions
start. 

If all is noise and artifacts, why would there be such a strong
relationship between pressure and cell power? 

> I call again on Jed Rothwell to make available all the details he has
> culled from reading the Japanese language reports by A&Z.  Let us all
> join in supporting a quick independent test of the excess heat
> capabilities of the "double structure" cathodes, which, according to the  A&Z report, is a sure shot.  I will be very pleased indeed, if excess  heat is confirmed.  It would be a coup for the testing laboratory.
> 
> As one,   Rich Murray

Murray:  Here is a disturbing comment on Friday, Dec. 19,  from Jed
Rothwell, who is very committed to supporting Arata & Zhang:

"Furthermore, he is not willing to share his knowledge with other
people. Like many other CF scientists in their 70s, he seems determined
to take his secrets to the grave. Fortunately Zhang is still young, and
I have heard she is doing most of the hands-on work."

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 00:00:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22413;
	Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:58:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:58:16 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221015739.006d02ac mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:57:39 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <19971220160645206.AAA127 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"ezeo72.0.3U5.MmCdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14092
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mike said

>The Sievertz law relates gas pressure outside a metal lattice to the
>concentration of that gas within the lattice. To achieve the 90% loading
>required for the P&F effect, the pressure has to be "over one hundred
>thousand atmospheres". 

That is consistent with published TCP (Temperature-Concentration-Pressure)
data for the Pd/H system.

>The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand.

Neither do I.  I accept that electrolysis will exert tremendous effective
pressure on the outside of the Pd cathode but, once the D has passed thru
those walls and come out into the interior cavity, isn't it just plain old
D gas under pressure trying to enter the Pd black particles?  If so, then
all the Pd black sees is the 1000 atm pressure.

Let's clear this point up.  Anybody?


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 04:40:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15950;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:37:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 04:37:07 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:21:20 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971221124048586.AAA222 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"xoabk3.0.8v3.orGdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14093
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> Mike said

<snip>

> >The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand.
> 
> Neither do I.  I accept that electrolysis will exert tremendous effective
> pressure on the outside of the Pd cathode but, once the D has passed thru
> those walls and come out into the interior cavity, isn't it just plain
old
> D gas under pressure trying to enter the Pd black particles?  If so, then
> all the Pd black sees is the 1000 atm pressure.
> 
> Let's clear this point up.  Anybody?

Scott, please *study* the passages in the A&Z paper I cited, including the
whole of Fig. 7.. They very clearly state that another whole set of
phenomena are involved in the penetration of D into the Pd-black particles.
This does not depend on the Sievertz law. They clearly state that this
process evades the strictures of the Sievertz law. It is why the double
structure cathode is built in the first place. I suggested that the
pressure developed inside the capsule is a result, not the cause, of the
loading of the Pd black. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 05:16:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07456;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:13:20 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:13:20 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971221131013.008e6674 freeway.net>
X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:10:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Resent-Message-ID: <"mNzFM2.0.Oq1.lNHdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14094
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:57 AM 12/21/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>Mike said
>
>>
>>The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand.
>
>Neither do I.  I accept that electrolysis will exert tremendous effective
>pressure on the outside of the Pd cathode but, once the D has passed thru
>those walls and come out into the interior cavity, isn't it just plain old
>D gas under pressure trying to enter the Pd black particles?  If so, then
>all the Pd black sees is the 1000 atm pressure.
>
>Let's clear this point up.  Anybody?
>
>
>Scott Little 
>EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>
The "spillover effect" is a term that first appeared around the early
1980's.  I did not understand it then and I don't understand it now.  I
vaguely remember that it pertained to silica catalysts and not to palladium
type catalysts.

With regard to the Pd powder inside the palladium tube, my reasoning is the
same as yours, not any different than D coming through a purifier under
whatever pressure there is inside the tube.

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 05:16:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19340;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:12:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:12:33 -0800
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971221131015.008e570c freeway.net>
X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:10:15 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Edwin Strojny <estrojny freeway.net>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Resent-Message-ID: <"-59Gl3.0.6k4._MHdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14095
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:29 AM 12/20/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>Gnorts,
>
>We are underway with a serious effort to replicate one of the more
>spectacular excess heat results of BlackLight Power.  The following address:
>
>http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html
>
>contains a fairly detailed description of our progress to date.  As you
>will see we've already done the groundwork to get a first-cut at the
>experiment running.
>
>
A suggestion:

To increase the probability of H atoms and K+ getting together, make a
cylinder of your metal mesh screen.  The cylinder length would be about the
length of your tungsten filament and the diameter should be such that when
the filament passes through the cylinder, it would not touch the wall of the
tube even after passing a current through.  To load the cylinder with KNO3,
soak the cylinder in a solution of KNO3 and remove the water with heat.  You
will now have a cylinder coated with KNO3 crystals which, if they should
melt under the conditions of the experiment, will "wet" the steel mesh wires.  

By the way, will the filament support its own weight when subjected to 120
volts?  The filament in a lamp is supported about midpoint.  The need for
this may only be to get bends in the filament to get the right length inside
a bulb.

Ed Strojny

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 06:10:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11326;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:03:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:03:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221090259.006d789c world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:02:59 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: ZPE claims an *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3
In-Reply-To: <808e9c3e.349ae8c0 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cjBOF.0.um2.07Idq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14096
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 04:35 PM 12/19/97 EST, Hal wrote:

>

>In a message dated 12/19/97 4:57:05 PM, Mitchell Swartz asks:

><<<<postulate of pure vacuum having "secret" mass greater than the known
mass of

>the universe in each cm^3?>>

>

>Hal:

>"The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is
said to

>consist of "virtual photons."  The statement you are probably referring
to is

>the one that "*if* the ZPE energy density were to be converted into
mass

>density via E = mc^2, it would be the *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3." 
That is

>not to say that the vacuum has mass; quite the contrary, since photons
are

>massless bosons."


 

  Glad that you agree.

 But the questions still not addressed is the following:


<bold>QUAERIE:

  W</bold>hy must there be postulated more mass than in the entire 

universe hidden in EACH cm^3 of vacuum just to make it all work 

out theoretically?   It is stretch, and so much so that it

suggests an error of great magnitude.

 


  One can imagine a ultra-(femto-)small virtual energy created

out of pure vacuum, but not for long, and certainly not of any

significant magnitude.   

If there is proof to contrary, regarding serious amounts of 

the purported ZPE(vacuum) NOT due to photons which just happen

to be permeating the volume, also showing that ZPE(v) has a 

magnitude larger than the more reasonable ZPE(lattice), then 

thanks in advance for helping to increase the accuracy of this matter.


  Best wishes.

    Mitchell Swartz 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 06:11:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12010;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:09:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:09:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221090824.006ae8ac world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:08:24 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221015739.006d02ac mail.eden.com>
References: <19971220160645206.AAA127 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"IhI95.0.ax2.PCIdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14097
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 01:57 AM 12/21/97 -0600, Scott Little  wrote:
>"Mike said
>>"The Sievertz law relates gas pressure outside a metal lattice to the
>>concentration of that gas within the lattice. To achieve the 90% loading
>>required for the P&F effect, the pressure has to be "over one hundred
>>thousand atmospheres"." 

>That is consistent with published TCP (Temperature-Concentration-Pressure)
>data for the Pd/H system.
>
>>"The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand."
>
>Neither do I.  I accept that electrolysis will exert tremendous effective
>pressure on the outside of the Pd cathode but, once the D has passed thru
>those walls and come out into the interior cavity, isn't it just plain old
>D gas under pressure trying to enter the Pd black particles?  If so, then
>all the Pd black sees is the 1000 atm pressure.
>
>Let's clear this point up.  Anybody?"


 1.  Microscopic reversibility follows from the equations.
You might start with the equations that generate the depletion
layer in a p-n junction (e.g. Sze, S.M., "Physics of Semiconductor
Devices", Wiley (1981), or many others if you need the refs)
and then consider multiple layers.

  The microscopic reversibility explains the coupling and
generation of high fugacities.  My only criticism is that
there is an ASSUMED equilibrium, which may not exist.

   As a result to correct for the presumed equilibrium, 
solutions were obtained using a quasi-one-dimensional model of 
loading (which is NOT necessarily related to the Q1D model of heat transport).
The results from the Q1D model were worked out exactly, and include:
Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading
 of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300.
and Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At
An Electrode". Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77

  The results from the Q1D model corrected for the George-Stringham 
applications of sound energies to load the metal:
Swartz. M., 1994, "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations"
 "Cold Fusion Source Book International Symposium On Cold Fusion And 
Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox. Minsk Belarus


  The results from the Q1D model applied to experimental data showing the
pi-notch: Swartz. M. 1997 "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess
Enthalpy 
in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi- 1 -Dimensional Model 
of Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74.
 Additional info indicating that the location  of the excess heat
depends upon the locations of driving the system within the pi-notch:
Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using 
Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009


  The results from the Q1D model applied to experimental data showing the
advantages of codeposition:  
Swartz. M., 1997, "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion
Technology, 
32. 126-130 (1997).

   These, and some other models in the literature, offer further analysis
of the spillover effect and other double-layer, loading, kinetics.


  2. BTW really liked Mike Carrell's comments on this thread, which
are -- as have been so many others -- right on.

  Best wishes.

   Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)
     JET Energy Technology


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 06:15:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25346;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:12:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:12:01 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:10:54 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971221141542503.AAA249 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"WDwBP2.0.tB6.mEIdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14098
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
<snip>
> "....The pressure and flow rate were adjusted to maximize the 
> output power,and the optimal values were about 40 PSI and 
> 10 cc/min., respectively. The data was recorded ......."  <snip>
> 
> That 40 PSI is what I am wondering about.

and from Scott:

>No kidding!  That's a ways from 2 torr, isn't it!?   All these variations
>in the parameters are actually quite encouraging to me.  It looks like
>anytime you get H and K together with a heated filament good stuff can
happen.

Keep in mind that there are two aspects of the problem: 1) getting the
catalyst and H together so the reaction can occur, and 2) transferring the
heat to the outside world. 

The low pressure runs seem problematical to me as it makes 2) more
difficult, unless the primary transfer is by EUV radiation as the catalyst
radiates the acquired energy. There's a lot of H2 around when the pressure
is high, and it's only the H that counts, and that has to encounter the K+
ions on an individual basis. Think about this for a while, and the optimum
conditions are no longer obvious. 

So if BLP at one time finds that optimum heat output is with high pressure,
they may be optimizing heat transfer. At lower pressures, they may be
optimizing catalytic encounters. Also realize that the big power gains will
be by multiple catalytic reactions among formed hydrinos which can catalyze
further hydrino production, a kind of chain reaction. 

There is precious know-how being painfully acquired by BLP, which will be
the basis for licensing leverage in the future.

As with A&Z  and P&F and Correa and Mills, it is so easy to glance at a
physical configuration and think that all one has to do is to mimic the
configuration without long and hard thought about what may be going on, and
study of available papers.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 06:32:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14644;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:29:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:29:42 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <349D1781.63BCB247 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:20:01 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <v01530504b0b848db4499 [199.237.131.249]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qEylY3.0.ka3.JVIdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14099
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
 
 "It seems to me like it must be important to measure the
 displacement of swing as a function of time, and maximum
 displacement over time as well. If the curve is not sinusoidal,
 and the maximums consistent, then a simple pendulum motion is
 not present, and the problem needs to be fixed or analysed."
 
 Hi all,
 
 This is a progress report.  No base came with the balance.
 I am about to have a true-vertical hole drilled in a
 block of black walnut to hold the shaft of the balance.
 The block will sit on a piano.  Another alternative is to
 anchor the shaft to a block of steel, which would also sit
 on the piano.  The base could be a variable in the experiment,
 although, at least for this round, I'm under a little
 time pressure since this is going to be a science project.
 I would appreciate comments.
 
 Hal Puthoff writes:
 
 "We're just sheep, following the crowd, championing
 Newton's Law, Einstein's equations, and (with regard
 to ZPE) quantum electrodynamics as they are presented
 in the textbooks.  If the textbooks are wrong,
 then we are wrong.  If the textbooks are right,
 then we are right.  We're just cooks following the
 recipes given in the cookbooks."
 
 The best theories give useful design equations that
 are based on data gathered in a reproducible manner.
 These design equations are limited in applicability
 to the conditions of the experiments.  Galileo's
 data and Tycho Brahe's data (upon which Kepler
 based his design equations) are the basis for Newton's
 design equations:  F=Gm1m2/r^2 definitely does work.
 The Lorentz correction, (1-v^2/c^2)^.5, as used
 by Einsten in his design equations also works.
 
 A new theory, to be seriously considered, should
 point the way to new experiments, resulting in new
 design equations.  Conversely, experiments may result
 in new design equations which generate new theories.
 In any case, the design equation is not the theory;
 and a good theory contains plausible mechanisms.
 
 One hundred years ago the energy of radioactive decay
 was untapped.  There are probably sources of energy
 of even greater importance that are in the process
 of being tapped.  Those who contribute to this forum
 are advancing the welfare of humanity as they hammer
 out the theories that may light up the future.
 
 Merry Christmas, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:00:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16551;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:57:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 06:57:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0c2dba52a17 [199.237.131.231]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 05:59:14 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"KLJ0T2.0.X24.ZvIdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14100
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:20 AM 12/21/97, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
[snip]
> Hi all,
>
> This is a progress report.  No base came with the balance.
> I am about to have a true-vertical hole drilled in a
> block of black walnut to hold the shaft of the balance.
> The block will sit on a piano.  Another alternative is to
> anchor the shaft to a block of steel, which would also sit
> on the piano.
[snip]

One idea to consider is glueing to the top of your block a piece of Formica
that has been factory pre-laminated to plywood.  You can then use a bubble
level to pre-level the block.  You may need to mount three machine screws
to the block for leveling purposes, unless your piano has leevling screws,
or find some other means to adjust level. Once pre-leveled, a precision
ball bearing, .5" or bigger, will tell you "true level" very well, for
final adjustments. Just roll it different directions on the Formica and see
which way the path bends. This even compensates for local gravitational
anomalies, like mountains nearby.  Then it is a matter of precision in
drilling the veritcal hole.  Another possibility is to use a surevyors
instrument with mercury level, but the ball bearing is only a few bucks.

Please keep in mind that I am just an amateur, and haven't actually done
this experiment, but others here will correct me quickly if I have a bad
idea!  (My experience is mostly in trying to work cheap.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:06:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17033;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:05:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:05:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:04:09 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971221100408_133308212 mrin53>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Resent-Message-ID: <"X5a7l2.0.2A4.z0Jdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14102
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dick Blue has raised an interesting point about the inner cathode being
isolated from the electrolyte and the electrolysis current.

In the graphic reprinted in COLD FUSION TIMES, 5, 3 (Fall 1997), p. 13 col.
1, the outer cathode is shown as made of palladium.  Could lithium from the
electrolyte pass through the outer cathode by deuterium-assisted diffusion?

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:08:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29055;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:04:40 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:04:40 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:04:04 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971221100404_-402347415 mrin52>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
Resent-Message-ID: <"E7Lfy1.0.u57.60Jdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14101
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Dec. 19, 1997, Scott Little wrote:

"A&Z successfully demonstrate that the Pd cathode shows a positive signal,
attributed to excess heat, where the Pt cathode does not.  Knowing Rich as I
do, I would venture to say that he also will not argue with this point.  The
real question is this:  

 Is the cause of this signal really excess heat...or is it some hidden
systematic error in A&Z's calorimetry?

I know that some of you are reaching for your keyboard right now, blood
pressure rising, to slam me into the ground...  Another group of you are
reflectively nodding in agreement.  Further discussion with members of the
first group is pointless.  For those in the 2nd group, how can we answer
this all-important question?

Independent replication of the A&Z experiment is one possibility.

Further experimental results from A&Z could be of value especially if they
would add simultaneous and independent measurements of input power and
output heat to their existing measurements."


If further discussion with the first group is pointless, then so is further
discussion with the second.  The second group would just treat any
replication as replication of "some hidden systematic error in A&Z's
calorimetry."  If a different calorimeter showed the same excess heat, the
second group would say that it was due to a different "hidden systematic
error." As for further results from A&Z, the second group would see them as
nothing more than new systematic errors in calorimetry from the perpetrators
of the original "hidden systematic error."

Scott continued:

"Arguing about the A&Z paper will not help much at all."

The debate between Rich Murray and Mike Carrell about the A&Z paper has been
a help to me, and I think that reading the debate would be a help to anyone
else interested in the A&Z paper.

Scott concluded, "Any other ideas?"

It's a shame that Arata won't show the NHE lab how to replicate his
experiment, assuming that the NHE lab ever asked.  Even at this late date,
the NHE lab might still have the equipment and resources to make the attempt.

Tom Stolper 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:19:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18508;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:17:38 -0800 (PST)
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <33e94d5b.349d319b aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:11:10 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: pressure
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"5AvMx3.0.5X4.FCJdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14103
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mike Carroll writes

"Fleischmann and Pons knew that the "effective pressures" of hydrogen
within metal lattices were well-nigh astronomical, if the high "chemical
potentials" in the lattice were appropriately interpreted. Think of
astronomical pressures, and immediately fusion comes to mind --
particularly when hydrogen isotopes are the atoms being pressured" 
snip
.............................................................................
The pressures are not nearly high enough  to induce nuclear change by ordinary
means.  Ten Kev is required.  Other wise the depth's of the ocean would light
up with cold fusion power.

eV = chemical potential u = temp ln(concentration/quantum concentration) = a
few eV's.

Or by the Nernest equation,  pressure =  .058 ln(concentration1 /concentration
2)

About 100,000 Atm at best.  If the lattice can take it.

In superconductors the potential well is compromised.  The pressures are high
enough to induce nuclear change by the process of squeezing a superconductor.

Again the process of cold fusion involves.."Squeezing a Superconductor"...

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:24:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA31827;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:23:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:23:21 -0800
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:23:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: ZPE claims an *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221090259.006d789c world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9712210941.A25228-0100000 firefly.prairienet.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ib-Y3.0.7n7.eHJdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14104
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 
> At 04:35 PM 12/19/97 EST, Hal wrote:
> >
> >In a message dated 12/19/97 4:57:05 PM, Mitchell Swartz asks:
> 
> ><<<<postulate of pure vacuum having "secret" mass greater than the known
> mass of
> >the universe in each cm^3?>>
> >
> >Hal:
> >"The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is
> said to
> >consist of "virtual photons."  The statement you are probably referring
> to is
> >the one that "*if* the ZPE energy density were to be converted into
> mass
> >density via E = mc^2, it would be the *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3." 
> That is
> >not to say that the vacuum has mass; quite the contrary, since photons
> are
> >massless bosons."
> 
> 
>   Glad that you agree.
>  But the questions still not addressed is the following:
> 
> QUAERIE:
> 
>   Why must there be postulated more mass than in the entire 
> universe hidden in EACH cm^3 of vacuum just to make it all work 
> out theoretically?   It is stretch, and so much so that it
> suggests an error of great magnitude.
> 

The first place I saw this number was in GEOMETRODYNAMICS by John 
Archibald Wheeler.  I believe the energy density mentioned by him was 
approx. 5X10^94 gm/cm^3.

Don't hold me to this, but I think the approx. average spacing of the 
virtual particles he mentioned was 10^-33 cm. I'd have to recheck (I 
don't own the book but it's in the local university (geology!?) library.)

Zack

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 07:48:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01778;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:44:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 07:44:57 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <faecfa62.349d3829 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 10:38:49 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: pressure
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"xG4G52.0.iR.tbJdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14105
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Little writes
............................................
Neither do I.  I accept that electrolysis will exert tremendous effective
pressure on the outside of the Pd cathode but, once the D has passed thru
those walls and come out into the interior cavity, isn't it just plain old
D gas under pressure trying to enter the Pd black particles?  If so, then
all the Pd black sees is the 1000 atm pressure.

Let's clear this point up.  Anybody?
...................................

I've been trying to clear this up.  Pressure is produced  by to an
electrochemical osomotic effect.  This effect is commonly called chemical
potential energy.  It is addressed by the work of Gibbs and what is know as
the grand cannonical distribution.  This distribution applies to a system that
can exchange particles.  Or more simply at room temp the relation ship between
pressure and volts is given by the Nernest equation.

volts = .058 ln(delta pressure)

Pressures can reach 100,000 atoms and do in places like the plates of a lead
acid battery.

Atomic hydrogen enters into the electrode.  Atomic hydrobgen has no charge and
cannot be driven by an electrolytic process.  That why the charged Lythium
complexes are required.

100,000 atom coresponds to about 2 eV...think of the lead acid
battery...That's the volts...in a typical high press electrolytic system.
KeV's are required for normal fusion.  This is not enough pressure by a long
shot.

Again the cold fusion process involves Squeezing a Superconductor at 100,000
atm.


Frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 08:50:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28352;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:47:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 08:47:25 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Blue: implications of A&Z cathode design
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:45:58 +0000
Message-ID: <19971221164549.AAB7252 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"6U8Aa3.0.ww6.SWKdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14106
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vo,

The subject post and "Britz: bit of openness to Cold Fusion (Murray)" may
mark a turning point away from the knee-jerk reflex to which so many who are
so fully vested into science establishment rulings have automatically become
committed.  Rather than an admission of failure to do the work of
investigating the claims before spreading far and wide their conclusions
based on other's opinions, we see these "experts" backing into the
discussion by 'discovering' what has been well known for years among those
literate in the field.   I do not point this probable reality out in order
to be contentious, but to do my bit to assure that credit goes to those who
have kept CF alive. 

I certainly welcome into the discussion those with the background to make
progress in the field.  They have my respect, however, humility and giving
of credit where due (besides adhering to the Vortex guidelines) is
appropriate and hallmarks of maturity.  We are mature adults, correct?

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 09:30:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13310;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:24:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:24:29 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221112442.006cc558 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:24:42 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Scott Little's comments on A&Z S/N
In-Reply-To: <971221100404_-402347415 mrin52>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"NxTDY2.0.tF3.B3Ldq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14107
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 10:04 AM 12/21/97 -0500, Tstolper aol.com wrote:

>If further discussion with the first group is pointless, then so is further
>discussion with the second.  The second group would just treat any
>replication as replication of "some hidden systematic error in A&Z's
>calorimetry."

Since I'm in the 2nd group, it's easy for me to say that we would be more
reasonable than this, Tom.  In actuality, you are partly correct.  It might
take two or three independent replications before the tide of acceptance
would begin to flood in.  

>The debate between Rich Murray and Mike Carrell about the A&Z paper has been
>a help to me, and I think that reading the debate would be a help to anyone
>else interested in the A&Z paper.

You are right, especially this thing about the Pd black seeing an effective
huge pressure.

>It's a shame that Arata won't show the NHE lab how to replicate his
>experiment, assuming that the NHE lab ever asked.  Even at this late date,
>the NHE lab might still have the equipment and resources to make the attempt.

Indeed.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 09:33:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15606;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:32:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:32:45 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221113259.006cc558 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:32:59 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221090824.006ae8ac world.std.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971221015739.006d02ac mail.eden.com>
 <19971220160645206.AAA127 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"PymDJ1.0.hp3.xALdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14108
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 09:08 AM 12/21/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote:

> 1.  Microscopic reversibility follows from the equations.
>You might start with....<snip many references>

Mitchell, I appreciate the references but would you be willing to just
explain in a couple of paragraphs how it is possible that the Pd black
inside the chamber sees an effective D pressure similar to that applied to
the by the external electrolysis (~100,000 atm)...especially when the
actual D pressure in the spaces surrounding the Pd black is only 1000 atm.

I am familiar with the extreme forces that can be exerted by concentration
gradients but that won't wash in this case because the surfaces of each
grain of Pd black are exposed to the 1000 atm D gas inside the cathode
chamber.

Thanks in advance.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 09:41:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05561;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:38:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221113746.006cc9b4 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:37:46 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Storms on BLP experiment
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id JAA05543
Resent-Message-ID: <"MpQ282.0.pM1.CGLdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14109
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ed Storms has examined our proposed BLP experiment and writes:

>Scott,
>I read your description of the proposed Blacklight replication with
>interest. I have a few comments.  They claim to use KNO2, which is
>potassium nitrite, while you are using KNO3, which is potassium nitrate.
>KNO2 will decompose at high temperature (400°) to give K2O, N2 and O2. 
>This reaction is exothermic.  The O2 will react with the H2 to give
>additional heat.  On the other hand, KNO3 is stable.  I'm at a loss as
>to why either chemical form is used.  If I wanted to have potassium
>available with the least chemical uncertainty and highest pressure I
>would use K metal. Unless the KNO3 gets very hot, the vapor pressure of
>K is going to be be very low.  Since, according to Miles, this atom must
>carry away the energy to allow formation of the hydrino, the
>availability of K in the vapor,  ie its vapor pressure, will determine
>the rate of energy production. Thus, the temperature of the potassium
>source will be the critical parameter.

What about this KNO2 vs KNO3?  I find many references to KNO3 on the BLP
web page and only one to KNO2.  I assumed it was a typo.  Anybody know?



Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 13:16:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17354;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:07:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:07:04 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007800b0c3323995c3 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:06:57 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide"
Resent-Message-ID: <"oSEUK1.0.2F4.sJOdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14110
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Bob Flower and I are building a "Bifilar Waveguide" -- ie, a bifilar
>coil with distributed capacitance -- as follows: two 200 ft rolls
>of aluminum foil, separated by two rolls of Glad Wrap,  all wound
>around a hollow core of PVC pipe.

I built come tuning capacitors like this about 30 yearsa ago for a 50 kHz
power generator (but I tried to reduce, rather than maximize the
distributed inductance for my application).

>2. Suggestions for good electrical bonding of the foil ends?

I wrapped s couple of turns of the Al foil around a length of thin Cu
strip. Make the Cu strip several cm longer than the width of the Al foil.
Wrap the foil fairly tightly around the Cu strip. Then make electrical
contact to end(s) of the Cu strip sticking out from the roll. You need to
press the whole capacitor roll, including the connection  ends, together,
eg by lots of rubber bands or tape.

>3. Will a 600 volt potential arc through the Glad Wrap?

Maybe, maybe not. I used thin polyethylene and discovered that the
insulator always has a few weak spots. It only takes one weak spot to ruin
your capscitor. I found that using TWO layers of the insulator film for
each layer eliminated the problem. The flaws are infrequent, and the
probability of two of them lining up is extremely low. Later, I discovered
that this is the technique used by manufacturers of high voltage energy
storage capacitors.

Polyethylene is a low loss dielectric---one of the best. I don't know what
Glad wrap is made of, but many plastics have high dielectric loss.

>suggestions for alternate dielectric materials?  Clear polyethylene
>film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
>wide x several hundred feet long?

Don't know. You might have to roll from shorter lengths. Overlap the ends
by a couple of cm.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 13:36:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02143;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:30:43 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:30:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007802b0c33a7f8765 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221090824.006ae8ac world.std.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971221015739.006d02ac mail.eden.com>
 <19971220160645206.AAA127 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:29:51 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Resent-Message-ID: <"mWLmh.0.PX.1gOdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14111
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mitchel wrote:

> 1.  Microscopic reversibility follows from the equations.
[snip]

Please, Mitchel, just explain to us non-chemists what the "spillover
effect" is.
				Thanks

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 13:51:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23810;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:49:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:49:29 -0800
From: Schaffer gav.gat.com
Message-Id: <v03007803b0c33beedda0 [198.133.146.230]>
In-Reply-To: <b452bc9e.349c3b71 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:49:26 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Resent-Message-ID: <"_Q_gx1.0.yp5.exOdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14113
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just a few comments for Scott Little and collaborators.

H2 at 2 torr is still a good thermal conductor--almost as good as at 1 atm.

Atomic H (or D) has about 2.5 eV of energy (for each atom; the H2 bond is
about 5 eV) above H2. This makes it very reactive relative to H2.
Electrolysis produces H, some small amount of which enters the cathode.
This is how low pressure electrolysis loads Pd or other cathode materials
with hydrogen. After the electrolysis stops, the hydrogen in the metal is
not in equilibrium with the low pressure environment outside, and it begins
to leave the metal. However, the reaction speed to leave the metallic
surface is slow (at least in Pd), so there is not a big rush of H escaping.
It takes hours to days, I think.

I will be away for most of the next 2 weeks. I wish you success.

Michael J. Schaffer
General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA
Tel:  619-455-2841              Fax:  619-455-4156


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 13:53:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23123;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:46:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:46:51 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:44:52 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971221215033936.AAA212 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"7ImYd2.0.8f5.AvOdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14112
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I hope Mitchell can help with a discussion that doesn't require study of
papers not easily at hand. I also think Scott hasn't quite gotten the
point. He says: 

> Mitchell, I appreciate the references but would you be willing to just
> explain in a couple of paragraphs how it is possible that the Pd black
> inside the chamber sees an effective D pressure similar to that applied
to
> the by the external electrolysis (~100,000 atm)...especially when the
> actual D pressure in the spaces surrounding the Pd black is only 1000
atm.
> 
> I am familiar with the extreme forces that can be exerted by
concentration
> gradients but that won't wash in this case because the surfaces of each
> grain of Pd black are exposed to the 1000 atm D gas inside the cathode
> chamber.

The pressure in the chamber is not initially 1000 atm. Look at Fig 7 and
Fig 9. The reaction starts with low capsule pressure - almost vacuum, the
text suggests - and rises beyond the saturation of the pressure sensor at
900 atm.. The text under Fig 7 mentions 1000 atm. The discussion does not
say that the Pd-black sees and effective D pressure of ~100,000 atm. Nor
does it say that 90% saturation of D is produced in the capsule shell,
since D can diffuse through the shell. The discussion says that the
mechanism Arata calls "spillover" produces rapid saturation of the Pd-black
which would require the ~100,000 atm if done by direct pressurization. 

The particles are of the order of 3000 Pd atoms in diameter. D ions
diffusing through the capsule walls rapidly "spill-over", migrating along
the very large surface area and into the Pd lattices. This occurs during an
incubation period seen in Fig 7. Then the LENR "lattice quakes" ignite and
further migration of D is accompanied by the pressure rise seen in Fig. 9.
There are references to several papers which may tell this story
differently. The above is my qualitative interpretation of the A&Z paper. 

Perhaps Mitchell can correct any misconceptions. 

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 14:34:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA32408;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:30:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:30:56 -0800
Message-ID: <349D9830.5F1C lcia.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:29:04 -0500
From: HAMILTON LCIA.COM (DANNY HAMILTON)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: (no subject)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yK3GF.0.Dw7.VYPdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14114
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Unsubscribe

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 16:32:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22963;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:28:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:28:55 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: General idea RQM
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:27:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a19a15.54969569 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971220093034.6640C-100000 college>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971220093034.6640C-100000 college>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"MErkF.0.jc5.5HRdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14115
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:57:01 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote:
[snip]
>motors controlled by computer.  This motion which is carefully controlled 
>results in 3 to 5 microVolts of out put.
[snip]
John,

I seemed to have missed the bit about 3-5 microvolts. Could you point
me to the document where this is stated?

TIA

Robin

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 17:35:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01868;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:31:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:31:02 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110701b0c3727979f8 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:29:50 -0500
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: TT Brown/Learning Channel notes
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ahp8J1.0.3T.JBSdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14116
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[Naturally, my VCR is broken, but I took notes... -- r]

The Learning Channel

12/21/97 1PM EST

Future Fantastic

The Incredible Shrinking Planet

Host: Gillian Anderson

Teaser: close up of large optical bench with lasers, mirrors,
beam-splitters, etc, it's the 'Quantum Teleportation' experiment...

1st Segment: John Clute (Ency. of Science Fiction) talking about history
of transportation and science fiction versus science fact...more
historical footage, GM's future vision (from the 50's) ... early visions
of flying automobiles... (Clute will reappear throughout)

Paul Moller (sp?), designer of the SkyCar...early designs for flying
cars using conventional ducted fans...50's TV footage inside Ford Design
Center, showing flying cars...early flying one-man platform...US Army
designed flying saucer...Dennis Bushnell, NASA...Russion 'Jumbo'
Saucer...

Solar powered Ion-powered craft, Brian Motts...Bob Forward (who appears
throughout) comments...old footage of Seversky's Ionicraft...

2nd Segment: Blake Mirabeau (sp?) lightcraft...inspired by old Wonder
Stories cover ... use microwave beams to create plasma channels ...
vehicles travel 25X sound speed ... passengers use maglev belts to board
vehicles ... John Mankins (NASA) says devices will be tested at White
Sands ... passengers will undergo 200G's, must travel in immersion pods,
breath oxygenated-fluid...

Anti-Gravity: old footage 'From the Earth to the Moon', flying carpets,
Bob Forward again, pointing out that flight has always been about anti-
gravity, John Anderson (NASA advanced concepts), Franklin Mead (USAF)
who has recreated T.T.Brown experiments, old footage of Brown with
various levitating devices, in white lab coat, drinking champagne from
beaker ... Mead describes large pendulum capacitors, which accelerate
when charged with 30-40KV ... comments from Frank Close (Cambridge Univ)
and Bob Forward about unifying EM and G...

3rd Segment: Michio Kaku talks about time travel, teleportation and
wormholes...old footage from 'The Time Machine' ... Kaku explains how to
build a wormhole...two plates charged to high potential, Casimir effect
... make two devices, put one on a spaceship traveling near c, jump in
between the plates and poof, you're on the spaceship...

Virtual Reality: footage from 'Lawnmower Man' ... Jaron Lanier (inventor
of VR) talks about 'shared dreaming', says most VR today is dreadful...
John Walden (VR engr) describes RiverWorld. Neil Stevenson (cyberpunk
sci-fi) author of 'Snowcrash' ... Richard Johnstone building VR goggles
that use laser beams to project directly onto retina...

4th Segment: Teleportation ... Star Trek footage (naturally) ... Larry
Niven talks about consequences, collapse of automobile industry, etc...
Stanford Univ. 3D Fax machine ... old footage from 'The Fly' (original),
then Anton Zilenger (Innsbruk) talking about the quatum teleportation
experiment, which hadn't yet happened when this segment was filmed. He
only said what would happen if it worked...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 17:44:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27948;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:40:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:40:11 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221192338.006c8cf0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:23:38 -0600
To: <mikec snip.net>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <19971221215033936.AAA212 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"8ZFIh3.0.Vq6.wJSdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14118
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 05:44 PM 12/21/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

>I hope Mitchell can help with a discussion that doesn't require study of
>papers not easily at hand. I also think Scott hasn't quite gotten the
>point.

>the mechanism Arata calls "spillover" produces rapid saturation of the Pd-
>black which would require the ~100,000 atm if done by direct pressurization. 

Mike, if you don't think I have the point, then I just must not be saying
it right.  I want to know HOW "spillover" can drive the D/Pd concentration
in the Pd black particles up to 0.90 when the space around the particles is
pressurized only to 1000 atm.  "Spillover" is apparently some kind of
driving force, similar to a concentration gradient. How could it possibly
be sufficient to maintain the Pd black particles at 0.9 D/Pd when they are
immersed in a 1000 atm enviroment?  What's to keep the D from flooding out
of the surface of the particles until the equilibrium concentration for
that pressure is reached?

The equilibrium conc for D in Pd at 1000 atm must be around 0.80.  I've got
the TCP chart at the lab...I'll check tomorrow morning and report back here.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 17:45:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27919;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:40:07 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:40:07 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221194016.0069a700 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:40:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971221131015.008e570c freeway.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5W5b3.0.7q6.rJSdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14117
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:10 AM 12/21/97 -0500, Edwin Strojny wrote:

>To increase the probability of H atoms and K+ getting together, make a
>cylinder of your metal mesh screen....soak the cylinder in a solution of
KNO3 >and remove the water with heat

Nice idea, Ed.  We'll probably use a pan full for the first shot since
that's almost already made but yr suggestion might end up in a practical
design.

>By the way, will the filament support its own weight when subjected to 120
>volts?

I hope so...we'll find out.

MIke Carrell wrote:

>There is precious know-how being painfully acquired by BLP, which will be
>the basis for licensing leverage in the future.

Not according to the stuff on their website.  They give details of ~5
different embodiments of the gas-phase experiment and the parameters vary
all over the place.  They've used tungsten filaments and platinum
filaments, pressures ranging from 2 torr to 40 psi, catalysts ranging from
pure KNO3 to mixtures of KNO3 and 1%Pd-on-graphite.  This has all the
earmarks of a robust effect that happens to some degree anytime you get H,
K and a hot filament together.  We will have good sensitivity for excess
heat in our calorimetry.  If the cell makes even 5% excess heat we'll be
able to see it.  For this particular embodiment, BLP reported more than
100% excess heat!

As far as heat transfer goes, we won't have any problem.  As Mike Schaeffer
says:

>H2 at 2 torr is still a good thermal conductor--almost as good as at 1 atm.

This statement matches my own observations two years ago when I was trying
to make Ni wires show excess heat in a H atmosphere.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 18:50:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03801;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:46:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:46:56 -0800
Reply-To: <mikec snip.net>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:43:38 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID: <19971222025040538.AAA235 default>
Resent-Message-ID: <"aPXx22.0.Jx.WITdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14119
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott, I hate to seem picky, but we do have to be picky. And since we
aren't face to face, it's easy to read wrong intent into phrasing. Your
rephrased question is a legitimate one for which I have no answer. I don't
understand how this can be. 

But I assume Arata knows what he is doing and the text and diagrams clearly
indicate some process at work which does not depend on the pressure in the
capsule for loading of the Pd-black. There are clear references to other
papers which I don't have and seem to be devoted to this subject. Arata has
been at this for years, if not decades. 

I'm not going to follow Rich's lead and condemn what I don't understand.
Nor will I assume that the experiment is somehow bogus because I can't fit
all the pieces together. Nor will I demand that Arata explain it to me. He
has left a trail for me to follow if I have the resolve to do so. 

Regards, Mike Carrell
----------
> From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
<snip>
> Mike, if you don't think I have the point, then I just must not be saying
> it right.  I want to know HOW "spillover" can drive the D/Pd
concentration
> in the Pd black particles up to 0.90 when the space around the particles
is
> pressurized only to 1000 atm.

It's worse than that, the LENR process starts with a low capsule pressure.
See Fig. 9.

  "Spillover" is apparently some kind of
> driving force, similar to a concentration gradient. How could it possibly
> be sufficient to maintain the Pd black particles at 0.9 D/Pd when they
are
> immersed in a 1000 atm enviroment? 

I don't know. It must be the same force that drove them in when the
pressure was low initially.

 What's to keep the D from flooding out
> of the surface of the particles until the equilibrium concentration for
> that pressure is reached?
> 
> The equilibrium conc for D in Pd at 1000 atm must be around 0.80.  I've
got
> the TCP chart at the lab...I'll check tomorrow morning and report back
here.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 19:37:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15779;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:31:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:31:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0c3830622c9 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:33:14 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, mica@world.std.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:  Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Cc: commengr bellsouth.net
Resent-Message-ID: <"uFceE3.0.Ts3.XyTdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14120
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 4:35 PM 12/19/97, Puthoff wrote:
[snip]
>The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass.  ZPE is said to
>consist of "virtual photons."  The statement you are probably referring to is
>the one that "*if* the ZPE energy density were to be converted into mass
>density via E = mc^2, it would be the *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3."  That is
>not to say that the vacuum has mass; quite the contrary, since photons are
>massless bosons.
>
>Best regards,
>Hal Puthoff

Sorry it took so long to respond.  I am way behind on my reading again due
to experiments and the holidays.

I'd suggest photons only have no *rest* mass (in fact no independent rest
existence), as their energy upon absorbtion is transferred into the
increased mass of the absorbing electron (particle).  However, how is it
that photons have both transferable momentum and energy, and a velocity,
and yet no mass?  This just doesn't make any sense to me.   The energy of
the photon is wholly or partially transfered into electron mass by (delta
E) = (delta m)*c^2.   Photon's paths are bent in a gravitatational field.
Photons cannot escape a black hole.  Photons must have mass.  Photons are
composed of EM fields, which have mass corresponding to their energy. The
photons must carry the corresponding mass.

The notion that photons have mass can explain the lack of symmetry in the
universe with regard to antimatter, as well as a major source of dark
matter.  If electrons have mass corresponding to their energy, then both
mass and energy must forever be tied together. You can not create or
annihilate one without creating or annihilaing the other.  Since
particle-antiparticle annihilations create corresponding EM radiation, i.e.
convert particle mass to photons, matter-antimatter annihilations can not
even diminish the matter inside a black hole.  At the big bang, the
formation of many massive black holes containing more anitmatter than
matter could explain the absence of the corresponding amount of anitmatter
in the universe.  It wasn't just chance that the balance shifted to trapped
antimatter, for if it had shifted the other way we would be made of
antimatter and the names would simply be reversed.  For the most part,
anitmatter not ending up in black holes would have to have been converted
to outbound photons, which, since the universe must be a black hole, will
one day be inbound.  Only a small portion of the mass of the universe must
be free matter.

It seems unlikely that the balance of a process involving so many particles
so uniformly basted from a point would end up more than just a small
fraction out of symmetry.  Almost the entirety of the mass of the universe
must still be locked in black holes, in almost equal proportions of matter
and antimatter in each of the original archetypal black holes.  The
archetypal black holes must be composed, in large fraction, of photons,
which have only one speed: c.  Therefore they must not be singularities
like latter day black holes, which are formed from collapsing matter stars.
At the Swartzchild radius the archetypal black holes must consist entirely
of energetic photons.  The collison of architypal black holes, especially
in large numbers, due to tidal effects, could permit the formation of a
composite Swartzchild envelope with open central cusps, and thus photon
jets, from which matter could condense.

Well, that just shows what happens when you don't talk for a while.  You
just *have* to say something!

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 19:47:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13233;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:44:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:44:03 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b0c391fca6b4 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:46:44 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Resent-Message-ID: <"S5MzA2.0.ZE3.18Udq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14121
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 4:08 AM 12/21/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
[snip]
>Quantum physicists who describe Big bang, inflation, etc. does not bother
>too much with gravitation, even with limit of speed c. They probably
>saying the gravitational interactions are not efficient on quantum era.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar


In one brief initial interval in the big bang, according to some theories,
all the forces were equal in magnitude. Then the symmetry broke, and out
condensed matter.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 19:48:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13286;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:44:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 19:44:09 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0c391096dae [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:46:40 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Resent-Message-ID: <"BDILl.0.MF3.68Udq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14122
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:41 PM 12/20/97, Francis J. Stenger wrote:
[snip]
>
>My physics textbook says the momentum of a photon is given by:
>
>        p = E/c .
>
>So, what's the problem?  The problem, it seems to me, is in talking
>about the rest mass of a thing that is never at rest!!
>
>Photons have gravity too.  In the early universe, before radiation
>energy condensed into matter, there was plenty of gravity - all of it
>caused by the energy of photons.  Am I missing something?
>(As I recall, I got stomped on before for this simplistic view.)
>
>Frank Stenger


Me too.

However, here's a poser for you.  The mass of the universe was supposedly
at one point.  Such a point is obviously a black hole.

How'd we get outa there?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 20:11:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21429;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:07:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222120643.0070f914 cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:06:43 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"FEYv92.0.lE5.RUUdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14123
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

jeff fink wrote:

>... Clear polyethylene
>film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
>wide x several hundred feet long?

Go to a plastic bag manufacturer (I worked for one once as vacation
employment).  Before it is cut up into bags it is in the form of a
(very) long tube which is squashed flat and wound onto a roll.  Thus
you have your double layer already (for avoiding breakdown at
faults).  You could probably get them to run off a roll to your
specifications but would be easiest to find a standard size that
suits.  A lot of our production was for hospitals - big tubes to
slip over matresses, and smaller tubes for pillows.  This stuff was
not cut into bags - just delivered as large long rolls.  Thickness
and width is infinitely adjustable.  I remember some rather heavy
guage, very narrow tubes (~2 inches) that were used for storing
sticks of dynamite if memory serves me correctly!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 20:31:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20296;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:25:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:25:59 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971221222609.006d4cb0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:26:09 -0600
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <19971222025040538.AAA235 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"c3qat1.0.zy4.LlUdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14124
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:43 PM 12/21/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote:

>I assume Arata knows what he is doing and the text and diagrams clearly
>indicate some process at work which does not depend on the pressure in the
>capsule for loading of the Pd-black. There are clear references to other
>papers which I don't have and seem to be devoted to this subject.

We're not so far apart, Mike.  All I am asking for is a concise explanation
of HOW this "process" works.  Mitchell Swartz appears to understand it...I
hope he will write up a short summary for us.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 20:46:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23234;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:44:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:44:31 -0800
Message-ID: <349DF02C.A75 interlaced.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:44:28 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <v01530501b0c3830622c9 [199.237.131.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"p4gnk2.0.yg5.j0Vdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14125
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
 Photons must have mass.  Photons are
> composed of EM fields, which have mass corresponding to their energy. The
> photons must carry the corresponding mass.
> 

My hero!!  Yes!  Horace, perhaps it is just "neat" for particle guys to
define the rest mass of a photon as zero.  (You and I know they NEVER
are at rest!)  How about a big "gasbag" of a photon like a microwave
photon at 2400 MHz.  It's just a big blob of E and H fields moving at
the speed of light.  I agree on their energy content having mass -
unless there is some relativistic weirdness caused by the propagation
at c.  Do the E and H fields move forward at c or is it only the 
CHANGING that moves forward?  In a water wave the water has only local
orbital movement, right? - only the WAVE moves across the pond, right?

More damn confused than ever, Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 20:57:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28338;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:52:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:52:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349DF1EA.2191 interlaced.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:51:54 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <v01530503b0c391096dae [199.237.131.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"9giFO1.0.iw6.H8Vdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14126
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> However, here's a poser for you.  The mass of the universe was supposedly
> at one point.  Such a point is obviously a black hole.
> 
> How'd we get outa there?
> 

Why, we didn't, Horace.  We went the other way!  That way we had the
event horizon at our backs!  We're not OUT HERE, we're IN THERE!!

If that makes sense, then we're both in trouble.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 21:14:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28447;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:10:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:10:42 -0800
Message-ID: <349DF65B.5143 interlaced.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:10:51 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide"
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"m4bSc.0.My6.GPVdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14127
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

jeff fink wrote:
> 
> Bob Flower and I are building a "Bifilar Waveguide" -- ie, a bifilar
> coil with distributed capacitance -- as follows: two 200 ft rolls
> of aluminum foil, separated by two rolls of Glad Wrap,  all wound
> around a hollow core of PVC pipe.
> 
> In other words, the Al foil acts as the plates of the capacitance,
> and also as the conductor of the inductance. Since both L and C are
> distributed, we have a waveguide of sorts.
> 
> We want to see what this does to square waveforms from a signal
> generator, and then subject it to high energy pulses generated from
> our PAGD apparatus.
> 
> 1. Has anyone built a coil like this before -- ie a bifilar coil with
> distributed capacitance?
> 
> 2. Suggestions for good electrical bonding of the foil ends?
> 
> 3. Will a 600 volt potential arc through the Glad Wrap? Any
> suggestions for alternate dielectric materials?  Clear polyethylene
> film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
> wide x several hundred feet long?
> 

Jeff, I made a 12-foot-long, 4 foot dia. cylindrical capacitor to run
at 100 kv using overlap as suggested my Mike S.  I used 4-mil clear
polyethylene in a 14-layer wrap with overlap joints.  It ran fine as
a pulse capacitor.  If you are going to run at high frequency for long
times, I suggest you stress a small sample cap at the voltage and
frequency you need.  I think there are many forms of polyethylene
(details of cross-linking, etc.) and I'm not sure all of them are
low-loss at rf.  (Input from a chemist??)

Frank Stenger

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 22:12:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06051;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:04:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:04:29 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:55:11 +1100
Message-Id: <199712220655.RAA15166 main.murray.net.au>
X-Sender: egel mail.sa.ozland.net.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide Capacitor design"
Resent-Message-ID: <"wqyJn2.0.LU1.hBWdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14128
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 04:07 PM 12/20/97 -0500, you wrote:


If you do indeed build this monster could you let me and this newsgroup your
results.
I have heard of another design similiar to your suggested design but it was
encased in larger pvc end caps   and then filled completely with oil and let
sit  for a few days
until all air had left the unit.

I'm not sure of the folowing    but left standing I believe than charge
themselves.


Geoff

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135

















>Bob Flower and I are building a "Bifilar Waveguide" -- ie, a bifilar 
>coil with distributed capacitance -- as follows: two 200 ft rolls 
>of aluminum foil, separated by two rolls of Glad Wrap,  all wound 
>around a hollow core of PVC pipe.
> 
>In other words, the Al foil acts as the plates of the capacitance, 
>and also as the conductor of the inductance. Since both L and C are 
>distributed, we have a waveguide of sorts.
>
>We want to see what this does to square waveforms from a signal 
>generator, and then subject it to high energy pulses generated from 
>our PAGD apparatus.
>
>1. Has anyone built a coil like this before -- ie a bifilar coil with 
>distributed capacitance? 
>
>2. Suggestions for good electrical bonding of the foil ends?
>
>3. Will a 600 volt potential arc through the Glad Wrap? Any
>suggestions for alternate dielectric materials?  Clear polyethylene
>film would be good, but where can we get same on a roll 12 inches
>wide x several hundred feet long?
>
>Comments?  Complaints?
>
>Thanks, and Happy Holidays
>
>Jeff and Bob
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 21 22:59:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11110;
	Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:54:53 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:54:53 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 22:54:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com
Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski <jimostr ctainforms.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: My FTL Challenge to Vortex
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971221224944.2899A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"PGH6q.0.Vj2.xwWdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14129
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


    My fellow Vortexers,

    My server (ctainforms.com , Victorville Ca) has informed me that due to
    the  fact  that they are reconfiguring to a new op system (Sun Solaris)
    that my  shell  account  with  them  will  probably  become  inoperable
    shortly.

    I  would  like  to  make  a  few  parting  comments  , then , about FTL
    signalling.

     I just hope that one of you INDEPENDENT researchers will take the time
    to  look  into what appears to me to be a conspiracy that has persisted
    for decades about the possibility of real-time communication with other
    stellar systems .

     The  status  quo as it were holds that Einstein's theory of relativity
    somehow precludes the transmission of information at velocities greater
    than c (300 km/sec). If you do a dejanews search of this subject  using
    the  keywords "Superluminal signal* FTL" for example , you will pull up
    a number of discussions  which  ,  when  studied  ,  tend  to  be  more
    confusing  than  enlightening  . There are arguments involving Aspect's
    experiment  ,  Bell's  inequality  ,  photon  wavepackets   ,   Nimtz's
    investigation  of  a  "photon  tunnelling  effect" through a millimeter
    barrier and so on . But you will find nothing about anything REAL using
    basic EM technology that's been around for most of this century.

     Therefore  I  would  like  to point out a few simple postulates that I
    have  never  (  after  years  of  study   and   experiment   )    found
    controvertible ...
    ......................................................................

    Postulate #1.

     The retardation of accelerated  charged  particles  results  from  the
    collapse of one field with the advance of the other .


                                        /|  out
                                      <  |
                                        \|
                      (   (    ( )    )   )

                                          ______
                                          \    /
                                            \/  in


    This  means  that  precoded data from the collapsing field is available
    IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one .

    ....................................................................

    Postulate #2

         Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern
    between  them  with  a  change   in   it's   emmissive   -   absorptive
    characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and
    time - coincidentally across the distance between them.

                             > energy ->
               ____   /     ^           |      \   ____
              I  __>=(-*     --   <-    v     *-)=<__  I
           ___I_I__   \     (circulating)      /   __I_I__
          |        |                              |       |
          |  "T"   |                              |  "R"  |
          |________|                              |_______|

    ......................................................................

    Postulate #3.

    There are no qualifications to Biot's magnetic field strength law which
    depend  on the frequency of AC current , length of the wire , etc . The
    form of Biot's law which has not been thus modified for  c  information
    velocity  limitations and stands to this day unchallenged and unrefuted
    is as follows:

       The magnitude of a magnetic field around a long ,straight wire  that
       carries a current i is given by


           u     i
      B=  ____  ___
          2 pi   s     (a form of Biot's Law)

       where B = Magnetic field strength
             u = Permeability Constant
             s = Distance from center of wire diameter
             i = Current

       This magnetic field strength is uniform along the entire  length  of
    the  wire  at any given instant no matter what frequency of the current
    or length of wire in question.

     -------------------------------------------------------------------

     As  far  as this postulate # 3 goes , I have personally verified it by
    means of experiment similar to the one described in  my  earlier  posts
    (using  a long wire inductance rather than an "extended capacitor" made
    out of 75 ohm coax wire).

      So  I  would  like  to  issue this challenge to my one critic on this
    forum (I'm amazed that there were not a  least  a  few  more) , Michael
    Schaffer,  or  anyone  else  out there who doesn't believe me to please
    point out the reference or experiment that refutes  any  one  of  these
    three postulates.

      I'll be glad to look up the reference or do the experiment .

    I  will  be  the  first  to  admit error as I did with the moon gravity
    thing.

    Thanks very much vo ...I had a nice time here . I hope I can rejoin you
    soon.

    Jim Ostrowski



+++

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 02:04:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26758;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:01:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 02:01:03 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:00:27 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a097da.54398753 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <b452bc9e.349c3b71 aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <b452bc9e.349c3b71 aol.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NyXRs1.0.yX6.TfZdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14130
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:41:02 EST, VCockeram wrote:
[snip]
>Also, in another post (Robin?) it was questioned why a 200 mesh

No, not me.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 04:28:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07287;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:25:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:25:17 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:25:11 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re:  ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <faebe31e.349bf405 aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"67OY21.0.bn1.gmbdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14132
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



 <bold>BACKGROUND

</bold>

  The conversation in this thread has regarded the ambiguity of some

of the statements regarding ZPE(vacuum), in the attempt to clarify

what it is ZPE(v) actually represents.


   Is ZPE(vacuum) merely photons moving through actual

"vacuum" in interplanetary space, or a transient virtual energy

in ultrapure gendanken vacuum free of ALL other mass and photons?


  If the latter, then why is it assumed to be more than femtoscopic

and ultratransient, if at all? 


   And why must there be postulated more mass than in the entire 

universe hidden in EACH cm^3 of vacuum just to make it all work 

out theoretically?    


 -----------------------------------------------------

 

> Puthoff: "<italic>The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has
any mass.

    ZPE is said to consist of "virtual photons</italic>." 

>

>Mitchell Swartz:

>  "OK. As long as there is not any amount of real energy

>  then we are in agreement. "



At 11:36 AM 12/20/97 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote:

>>"<italic>The latter is not the case.  Photons have real energy.  It's
just that it's in

>the form of field energy, not mass energy.</italic> "


 re: two kinds of photons per ZPE(v)

   Seems to be some back-peddling about the photons.  First there

are no photons, then there are?


There are not photons in gendanken "pure" vacuum. 

But there are photons in achievable vacuum, as there lots of particles.


If ZPE is just light in free space, then there is no problem, 

but then "ZPE" is not ZPE(of "pure" vacuum) but merely photonic energy.

       

              Which is it?



    =======================================================


 Hal Puthoff continued:

>> "<italic>The reality of it is shown in the

>Casimir effect, shown in Milonni's paper I recommended in an earlier
post.

>Not only is the energy there, but the momentum carried by the photons

>reflecting off the plates is what is responsible for the Casimir effect,
so

>momentum in the vacuum is real as well.  Please look at Milonni's 
paper

>"Radiation pressure from the vacuum: Physical interpretation of the
Casimir

>effect.</italic>"



   re: Milonni

  The reference was examined, and it would be nice to

see further replication of it. There are over two hundred papers

a year confirming cold fusion [which your group nearly consistently

denigrates, yet fails to apply diligence to its own data and expts]

for comparison.


   Furthermore, regarding the cited paper: it would be good to see

a ruling out of other nanoscopic materials properties and mechanisms

that might have accounted for it.  The mechanisms

of adhesion, esp. bond energies, have often been ignored.

The reference to Prof. Egon Orowan was previously given.



    =======================================================


  re: conventional zero point energy


 about ZPE(lattice), no problem, because zero point energy is clearly

a result of the lattice, and demonstrates itself in material science.

  In fact, no problem with real matter, or even antimatter 

(which I have used to image tumors in

animals and people).  No problem with quantum optics, fluid

mechanics, or electrodynamics.  It is the blurring of conventional

physics that creates a region for more discussion.



   =======================================================


  re: the putative large amounts of zpe(vacuum)


  This sounds like a free lunch.  therefore, just

examining what appears to be a fabricated hypothesis 

of "something for nothing" based upon nonphysical handwaving.


  If these virtual energies exist, they are vanishingly

small and have not been proven to account for any of the serious

much larger-magnitude phenomena discussed in vortex, or s.p.f., or

involved in cold fusion, photoelectricity, etc.  Unlike cold fusion

where energy arises from the contraction of an excited ash-nucleus

to its lowest energy level, and unlike photoelectricity where the 

energy arises from the field energies in the impinging photons, it 

remains unclear where the purported ZPE(vacuum) comes from.

 

    =======================================================



  In summary:


  One can imagine a ultra-(femto-)small virtual energy created

out of pure vacuum, but not for very long, and certainly not of any

significant magnitude.   

If there is proof to contrary, regarding serious amounts of 

the purported ZPE(vacuum) NOT due to photons which just happen

to be permeating the volume, and ZPE(v) of a magnitude larger than

ZPE(lattice), then -- similar to the multiply

requested long-term normally-requisite initial calibration curves 

in your (Hal) calorimeters -- much thanks in advance.


  Best wishes.

     Dr. Mitchell Swartz 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 04:29:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07142;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:25:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:25:08 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222072504.006c4ec8 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:25:04 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221222609.006d4cb0 mail.eden.com>
References: <19971222025040538.AAA235 default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"r4dZd1.0.Wl1.Ymbdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14131
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


At 10:26 PM 12/21/97 -0600, Scott Little wrote:
>I hope he will write up a short summary for us.

  Between the Arata papers, the reviews in the COLD FUSION TIMES,
the numerous references already provided (and some methinks
already sent to Scott and Hal by snail-mail to get this started),
and the thoughtful comments of Tom and Mike, there is already
enough info available for those truly interested to begin their
literature search.  Apologies for the lack of time at this point
but there is no substitute for actually getting, reading and
considering the refs, and their cited background info.

  In the meantime, while continuing a new series of experiments,
am also preparing volume 6 number 1 of the
COLD FUSION TIMES.  Therefore, between that and a few articles
in preparation, the only time available for writing will be for that 
issue which is now chock full of even more experimental data,
material science and nuclear physics.

  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 04:56:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02936;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:52:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:52:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102803b0c3eb982945 [12.64.66.191]>
In-Reply-To: <v03110701b0c3727979f8 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:05:34 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: TT Brown/Learning Channel notes
Resent-Message-ID: <"fyypn2.0.ej.V9cdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14133
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ralph -

Thanks for the report. We don't get TLC on our cable system here.

Can you give any more detail on Mead's segment? What was his
results/opinions on the BB effect? Were there comments from others on his
experiments?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 04:57:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02975;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:51:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 04:51:59 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102804b0c3eca8694f [12.64.66.191]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971221224944.2899A-100000 victor1.mscomm.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 00:10:38 -1000
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: My FTL Challenge to Vortex
Resent-Message-ID: <"WecbD2.0.Kk.b9cdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14134
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jim -

RE: FTL

No argument from me.

RE: shell account demise

Get a regular ISP account then and come back, ok?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 08:21:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23176;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:15:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:15:24 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <25e93262.349e8d80 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:55:42 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BLP replication effort
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"BkWW_3.0.yf5.Q8fdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14135
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-22 05:04:46 EST, you write:

<< >Also, in another post (Robin?) it was questioned why a 200 mesh
 
 No, not me.
 [snip]
 
 Regards,
 
 Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> >>

Sorry Robin, it wa Ed Strojny that made the suggestion 
about the KNO3 melting and leaking from a wire mesh
basket.

regards
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 09:00:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11754;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:53:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:53:16 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:29:37 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Farnsworth - Miley device
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712220933_MC2-2CCF-CA0 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"f-R8g2.0.qs2.shfdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14137
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

Well, I'm going to do something I have repeatedly condemned Rich Murray for
doing. Here is a complete copy of a message posted in s.p.f. by Dieter
Britz. (Rich may copy it here too.) This is a purely apolticial message
of great interest to the people here. As I said before, the "no copy" rule
should be flexible . . .

- Jed


Subject: Miley's table top fusion thing
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:13:12 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University

In New Scientist, 13-Dec 1997, there is a report of a new fusion device,
designed by George Miley. It is said to be tabletop-sized, a football-sized
hollow sphere with a tennis-ball-sized wire cage at the centre. This is
negatively charged, while the sphere is positive, the difference being about
60 kV. Inside, deuterium at low pressure. This gets ionised, and the
deuterons zoom towards the central cage, missing the wires and (some)
hitting other deuterons and fusing. Miley has reached a neutron flux of
about 10^9 n/s and hopes to bump it up to 10^10. The whole thing will soon
be sold for $60k. This is hot fusion, not cold, and it seems that this sort
of flux is low level, but very useful for a number of things just the same.
Actually, the idea is not new, it is a development of an idea going back 40
years (Philo Farnsworth). Read the article.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
                                    NB this ^^ means chemistry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 09:44:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01277;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:31:33 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:31:33 -0800
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <349E891A.5558 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:36:58 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
References: <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qKfOI.0.mJ.pFgdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14138
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Mitchell Swartz wrote:
> 

> re: Milonni 

[paper on interpretation of ZPF]

> The reference was examined, and it would be nice to
> see further replication of it. There are over two hundred papers
> a year confirming cold fusion [which your group 

[i.e. EarthTech, Little, Puthoff] 

> nearly consistently
> denigrates, yet fails to apply diligence to its own data and expts]


This comment strikes right to the empirical heart of the matter, I
would say. Basically, you are chiding Puthoff et al for
chasing a (what you consider) phantom ZPE while the (in
your understanind) real phenomena of CF is
already available as a new energy source. 

It would seem that since you are in possesion of supposedly
functional CF technology, you could take this debate out of
the realm of paper chasing and into the lab by assisting
Puthoff et al in validating one of your CF experiments.

Now, I grant you the right to pursue your research independently
and in whatever fashion you see fit---but if you are going
to engage in an battle of CF vs ZPE, I think you should 
simply skip the intellectual sparring and deliver deliver
the empirical goods you claim to possess---a functioning CF 
experiment. That would do more to convince Puthoff & co. that 
ZPE is the wrond road to pursue than any amount of quibling
over what is virtual and what is not.

Just my opinion. 
-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 09:44:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01326;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:31:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:31:39 -0800
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <349E81FA.12D3 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:06:34 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry julia.math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pressure
References: <33e94d5b.349d319b aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"NpeWw.0.UK.vFgdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14139
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

FZNIDARSIC wrote:

> 
> Mike Carroll writes
> 
>> "Fleischmann and Pons knew the "effective pressures" of hydrogen
>> within metal lattices were well-nigh astronomical, 
>> if the high "chemical potentials" in the lattice were...interpreted. 
>> ...immediately fusion comes to mind

> The pressures are not nearly high enough  to induce nuclear change
> .... Ten Kev is required. 
> 
> About 100,000 Atm at best.  If the lattice can take it.

Frank Z. is right on the money here. I have never understood 
P&F's cryptic comments in their original paper about fugacities 
giving enormous (I forget, but it was 10^(large number) of
atmospheres) effective pressures in the lattice. Originally
I assumed they understood something I didn't. Since this 
fugacity argument disappeared early on in the CF saga, I now
assume it was simply erroneous.

What is and was obvious is that 

(1) Practically speaking, real metal lattices can only 
withstand ~1,000--10,000 atmospheres
of imposed pressure/stress before they yield (the theoretical
yield strength of an ideal lattice would be 100-1000x greater,
occuring when the pressure exceeded the bond energy density,
but lattice dislocation result in the much lower observed yield
in real materials)

(2)Ideally,  even if you interpret chemical bond energies as pressures,
you are talking about at most a few eV per atomic volume, which
tranlates into ~ 1eV/(10^-10 m)^3 = 10^11 Pascal = 10^6 atmospheres.

These pressures are way too low to induce conventional fusion,
and, though my memory fails, I think they are much lower
than the fugacity-related pressures claimed in the heuristics
of the original P&F paper. Someone with it handy can remind us.


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 09:48:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05588;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:38:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:38:31 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Farnsworth - Miley device
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:21:18 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0efe$0414dc80$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"53IYx3.0.cM1.IMgdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14140
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com <Blind.Copy.Receiver@compuserve.com>
Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 9:55 AM
Subject: Farnsworth - Miley device
>
>
>In New Scientist, 13-Dec 1997, there is a report of a new fusion device,
>designed by George Miley. It is said to be tabletop-sized, a football-sized
>hollow sphere with a tennis-ball-sized wire cage at the centre. This is
>negatively charged, while the sphere is positive, the difference being
about
>60 kV. Inside, deuterium at low pressure. This gets ionised, and the
>deuterons zoom towards the central cage, missing the wires and (some)
>hitting other deuterons and fusing. Miley has reached a neutron flux of
>about 10^9 n/s and hopes to bump it up to 10^10. The whole thing will soon
>be sold for $60k. This is hot fusion, not cold, and it seems that this sort
>of flux is low level, but very useful for a number of things just the same.
>Actually, the idea is not new, it is a development of an idea going back 40
>years (Philo Farnsworth). Read the article.

This is similar to a cylinrical magnetron type device patented by W.Gow at
Lawrence Berkely Labs in the 1950's.

A cylindrical can with a solenoid around the outside and "mirror coils" at
each end with a
small diameter axial electrode (negative) with a few thousand volts between
the electrode and outer can was filled with deuterium at low pressure.

The arrangement allowed the deuterium ions to circle (thousands of miles per
second)around the electrode in one direction
and the electrons circled (thousands of miles per second)at a smaller
radius.

Collisions between the deuterons and NEUTRAL
deuterium atoms/molecules gave a high yield of
fusion reactions/neutrons.

I'm very familiar with this approach because I
Re-invented it in 1985.   :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
>-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
>                                    NB this ^^ means chemistry
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 09:59:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29151;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:49:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:49:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5F2 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:48:35 -0800
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"NZ2RC1.0.N77.rWgdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14141
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace
	Black holes dissipate due to quatum effects. This could explain
the "Big Bang"?
Hank



> Me too.
> 
> However, here's a poser for you.  The mass of the universe was
> supposedly
> at one point.  Such a point is obviously a black hole.
> 
> How'd we get outa there?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 10:32:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05175;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:24:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:24:05 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: pressure
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:06:33 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0f04$563a7780$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"qVoVp1.0.jG1._0hdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14143
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Barry Merriman wrote:

> the most pressure you could get in the lattice is on the >order of 10,000
bars

F = k q^2/r^2 for the electron proton at the ground-state
radius is  about 6.5 pounds over (pi)*2.81E-15 meter^2 for the electron.
Heck that's about 6.5E35 psi.   :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 10:32:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20982;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:23:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:23:17 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: E =  1/2*CV^2  =    mc^2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:20:23 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0f06$4507c740$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"cy3OT.0.f75.J0hdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14144
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

C = eo*2(pi)r for a circular string (length only) particle.

q = CV = 1.6E-19 coulombs (relativistically invariant)

The product of the intrinsic capacitance of space
8.84E-12 coulomb/joule-meter and the Potential V determine the energy E
contained in the particle.

The relativistic contraction; C' = Co(1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2
of the string length suggests that as the length approaches zero (C goes to
zero) V^2 increases thus increasing energy
E towards infinity.

Regards ,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 10:34:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05158;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:24:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:24:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110704b0c42f48d693 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b0c3eb982945 [12.64.66.191]>
References: <v03110701b0c3727979f8 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:02:00 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: TT Brown/Learning Channel notes
Resent-Message-ID: <"BEwDl1.0.PG1.y0hdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14142
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Can you give any more detail on Mead's segment? What was his
>results/opinions on the BB effect? Were there comments from others on his
>experiments?

he said that he was able to replicate the experiments.
but they didn't show any footage of him doing it, only
the old films of Brown himself.  The other commentary
was supportive.  Eg, Bob Forward has a patent for a gravity
wave detector (http://www.whidbey.com/forward/Patents.html)

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 11:27:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27791;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:31:53 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:31:53 -0800
Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD5F0 xch-cpc-02>
From: "Scudder, Henry J" <Henry.Scudder West.Boeing.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: FW: FW: Santa Analysis (read on your off company time)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:08:53 -0800
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49)
Content-Type: text/plain
Resent-Message-ID: <"pmtuT.0.9o6.uNfdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14136
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Touche!
Merry Christmas
Hank

> ----------
> From: 	Hamdi Ucar[SMTP:hamdix verisoft.com.tr]
> Reply To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, December 20, 1997 6:29 AM
> To: 	vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: 	Re: FW: FW: Santa Analysis (read on your off company
> time)
> 
> Scudder, Henry J wrote:
> > 
> > Just in case some kid ask you if there is a Santa (from an
> > engineer's point of view or analysis)!
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > V.  Therefore, if Santa did exist, he's dead now.
> >
> > Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
> 
> Somebody seems forgotten new technologies as cloning and teleportation
> in his analysis.
> 
> Millions of Santa clones. Is there any engineering problem here?
> 
> 
> 
> All of 235 clones of hamdi ucar,
> 
> (How would be otherwise to post too many letters?)
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 12:03:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12873;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:53:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:53:50 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222145342.006a6528 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:53:42 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: pressure
In-Reply-To: <349E81FA.12D3 math.ucla.edu>
References: <33e94d5b.349d319b aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"cHmaZ2.0.393.CLidq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14145
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 07:06 AM 12/22/97 -0800, Barry Merriman wrote:


>What is and was obvious is that 

>

>(1) Practically speaking, real metal lattices can only 

>withstand ~1,000--10,000 atmospheres

>of imposed pressure/stress before they yield (the theoretical

>yield strength of an ideal lattice would be 100-1000x greater,

>occuring when the pressure exceeded the bond energy density,

>but lattice dislocation result in the much lower observed yield

>in real materials)

>

>(2)Ideally,  even if you interpret chemical bond energies as 
pressures,

>you are talking about at most a few eV per atomic volume, which

>tranlates into ~ 1eV/(10^-10 m)^3 = 10^11 Pascal = 10^6 atmospheres.

>

>These pressures are way too low to induce conventional fusion,

>and, though my memory fails, I think they are much lower

>than the fugacity-related pressures claimed in the heuristics

>of the original P&F paper. Someone with it handy can remind us.

>

>Barry Merriman

>Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program

>Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math

>email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

>


  Are not the fugacities calculated using the conventional Nersnst,

and other, equations?   Why are you (Barry) selectively criticizing

Drs. Fleischmann and Pons?  Have you worked this out using either

the Bockris or the Uhlig books (or one of the other electrochemistry

texts which Dieter Britz would probably be glad to suggest)?



  Whatever the pressures are, they are enough to cause fusion

since <italic>de novo</italic> nuclear ash is generated, with both
autoradiographic

effects and ultra low energy xray emission.  


  Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 12:07:00 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21596;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:56:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:56:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222145534.006bea10 world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:55:34 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
In-Reply-To: <349E891A.5558 math.ucla.edu>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"AjlTF1.0.GH5.nNidq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14146
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 07:36 AM 12/22/97 -0800, Barry Merriman wrote:

> Basically, you are chiding Puthoff et al for

>chasing a (what you consider) phantom ZPE while the (in

>your understanind) real phenomena of CF is

>already available as a new energy source. 



  No.  Am only examining putative phenomena and their

explanations.  The questions are difficult but important.  

Notice that you have not attempted to answer any of the

questions, Barry.  Perhaps Barry and Hal will go back and

help us with their knowledge on this matter.  The 

serious questions remain unanswered.



  ====================================================


 Barry Merriman wrote:

>...  you could take this debate out of

>the realm of paper chasing and into the lab by assisting

>Puthoff et al ..



   First, JET Energy Technology has confirmed cold fusion

using nickel from other sources and reported our results

in Fusion Technology and other technical journals.

We have thus confirmed cold fusion, reports available in

technical papers.   These were low levels as reported

in said literature.   Other work has been done and continues.



  Second, we have taught how (and why) to achieve long-term initial

baselines, measurement of noise, etc., and JET Energy Technology

is available to test other systems using those, and other,

developed techniques. 



  Third, JET Energy Technology has the ability

to clearly demonstrate if any of these other systems are real,

and has a track-record in cold fusion. 

Some of those results are in the peer review literature, and one

of the curve on the web at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html


  Therefore - as for others who might be interested - if 

Hal Puthoff is serious and has a working device (don't mean 

garden-variety photovoltaics, ultrasound, cavitation, or 

coupled motors which we have examined but which are touted 

as ZPE-device <italic>de jour</italic>)we would be glad to examine it for
him and 

Earthtech, and make the results available in a detailed report 

with considerations of possible artifacts, interferences, and 

integrated energetics.  



  Fourth, cold fusion has papers continue to proliferate

every month demonstrating ash, increasing power outputs, 

and more interesting systems, and nuclear/material results.  

Hopefully ZPE(vacuum) and hot fusion will someday do as well, and

with good people like Barry and Hal, surely they have their best 

chance.

  

   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 12:12:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23344;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349EBB21.7F5D earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:10:25 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, wolfy2@erols.com,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, blue@pilot.msu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch,
        rbrtbass pahrump.com, little@eden.com,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        sejones physics1.byu.edu, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil
Subject: Hansen: A&Z bibliography?: Expert re Sieverts' Law
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3C746C5F4D78"
Resent-Message-ID: <"MgMXm2.0.Zi5.9aidq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14147
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------3C746C5F4D78
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 22, 1997

Hello Lee,  The recent Arata&Zhang papers are summarized and the
abstracts given in Mitchell Swartz's Cold Fusion Times, Vol. 5, No. 3,
Fall, 1997, [http://world.std.com/~~mica/cft.html], quarterly, $
120/year.  They published two unrelated CF papers in Fusion Technology
a  few years ago.  I can send you a zerox of their 56-page paper, minus
the theory section on "latticequakes".  Also, they can all be found in
Dieter Britz's extensive CF bibliography [http://kemi.aau.dk/~db/].

Here is a discussion of Sievert's Law by an anonymous expert:

     "I noticed you couldn't find Sievertz Law.  That's probably
because      it is Sieverts' Law.  In work at the turn of the century
Sieverts       and coworkers expanded on the initial discovery of
Hoitsema that H2 
     dissolved into Pd at constant temp in proportion to the square
root      of the pressure as long as the H in Pd solution is
dilute(<--      NOTE).
     Sieverts, et. al. expanded that to other systems, and probably 
     generalized the math to get his name associated with it.  I
found       this info in:
     
     "Interactions of Metals and Gases, Vol. 1, Thermodynamics and Phase 
     Relations", J. D. Fast, Academic Press, 1965, on pgs 122-123
     
     They quote the following original refs. (which I don't have):
     
     C. Hoitsema, Z. phys. Chem., vol. 17, 1 (1895)
     A. Sieverts and J. Hagennacker, Z. phys. Chem., vol. 68 115 (1909)
     A. Sieverts, Z. Metallkunde, vol. 21, 37 (1929)
     
     (Hope you can read German!  Also, the jump from 17 in '95 to
vol.       68 in '09 seems suspicious, might have a ref. typo.)
       
     On pg. 185 of Fast, the following appears re: the Nb-H system:
     
     "At temperatures below 600 C there are deviations from the sqrt(p) 
     law, which are larger as the temperature is lower and the hydrogen 
     pressure greater.  We can then no longer speak of "dilute"     
solutions."
     (Note "C" and sqrt(p) are the ASCII form of what was written.)
     
     Immediately preceding that is data for Pd, and it shows similar 
     behavior, with the non-ideal region clearly present up to at least 
     313C.  In Pd the Sieverts' Law region is usually limited to
the          <0.05 H/M region. 
     
     The point I am trying to make is that discussions of Sieverts' Law 
     behavior are usually limited to very dilute H in metal or
alloy,        but CF is supposed to require very high H/M ratios.  
         
     The 'expanded Sieverts' Law' listed ( [D*]=a+blog(P) ) appears
to       be an empirical correlation in my first reading.  On pages
74-77        of Section 3 of "Hydrogen in Metals II.
Application-Oriented           Properties", ed. G. Alefeld and J. Volkl,
Springer-Verlag, 1978         (Sec 3 is written by E. Wicke, H.
Brodowsky and H. Zuchner), the        authors discuss Sieverts' Law and
the fact that at higher      concentration, a  non-ideality predominates
and you get the      empirical correlation you list (after a final
rearrangement to your      listed form) (experimentally observed as
early as 1930)."

--------------3C746C5F4D78
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from acs1.byu.edu (SYSTEM ns.byu.edu [128.187.22.129])
	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04813
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:33:38 -0800 (PST)
Received: from chemgate.byu.edu ("port 2837" chemdept.byu.edu)
 by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23832)
 with SMTP id <01IRH1FA28FS002QAZ yvax.byu.edu> for rmforall@earthlink.net;
 Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:32:40 MST
Received: from chem-Message_Server by chemgate.byu.edu with Novell_GroupWise;
 Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:33:03 -0700
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:35:31 -0700
From: "Lee D. Hansen" <ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu>
Subject: Sixth Arata Critique: cathode: Carrell posts (Part 1/2) -Reply
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Message-id: <s49e4fef.093 chemgate.byu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1
Content-type: text/plain
Content-disposition: inline

Could somebody please post a bibliography of Arata and Zhang's
publicatons?
Lee Hansen


--------------3C746C5F4D78--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 12:15:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19551;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:13:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:13:44 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971222091035.006c4e64 postoffice.ptd.net>
X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:10:35 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: jeff fink <revtec ptd.net>
Subject: Re: "Bifilar Waveguide" and PAGD
In-Reply-To: <19971220.215800.11830.2.tv juno.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971220160734.006c4f18 postoffice.ptd.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"yh8_a2.0.In4.tdidq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14148
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:57 PM 12/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Did you say PAGD  apparatus, as in Pulsed Abnormal Glow discharge of
>Paulo and Alexandra Correa ?
>
>Please tell us more ?   Any results.  According to Paulo no one has
>succeeded in replicating his work even though guy has been trying in a
>way that he thinks is off course and wil not succeed.  Is that you ?


I'm the guy.  I have not heard that Paulo ever commented on my effort
even though I faxed him a letter about my work around Sept 96. This was 
prior to Bob's involvement which began in Nov.  I would like to see those
comments.


>Paulo claims that he has disclosed all in his patents and it could be
>replicated by someone "skilled in the art".


All those batteries and mega capacitors are totally impractical and 
beyond our budget.  Perhaps it is my own ignorance, but the Correa's
over unity circuit does not make sense to me.  That is why I went in 
a different direction.  We have been mostly inactive since April while we 
think of some other variations to try.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 13:40:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07533;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:30:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:30:11 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:32:30 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712222132.WAA27831 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Re: Sievertz Law
Resent-Message-ID: <"XNhdW3.0.br1.Yljdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14149
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Here is what  I can understand about what Arata means:

If one take a vessel filled with deuterium (hydrogen), and palladium metal,
at equilibrium, the chemical potential between pressure and loading is
attained: the higher the pressure, the higher the concentration in the metal
lattice. However, things are not that simple: because the gas phase is
molecular, whereas the absorbed element is atomic, even ionic. Alsoyou
cannot have direct access to the bulk of the palladium. There is a third
player, the surface of the palladium. Hydrogen there is not molecular, but
atomic. Therefore there is an equilibrium between the gas phase, the surface
with deuterium atoms adsorbed, and the bulk with deuterium atoms or
deuterons absorbed. All this could be fine if there was reversibility. This
is not the case. Actually, for the deuterium to leave the bulk palladium, it
must first get to the surface, then find aother neighboring deuterium atom
to form a molecule, and then go to the gas phase. If by some mechanism you
can block this recombination, you block deloading. Quite a few people have
tried this trick by depositing molecules at the surface of the palladium to
enable the deuterium atoms to meet. 

However all this being said, Arata is doing another trick. He directly gets
atoms, not molecules that diffuse from the cylinder to the surface of the
palladium black, without going into the gas phase. Therefore he does not get
the high pressure expected. He has a high chemical potential at the surface,
this produces high loading in the palladium. Because of what I mentionned
before, he does not have the expected high pressure. 

I am not sure this is all true, but this is a good starting point for
understanding Arata's spillover ideas.
********************************
Jean-Paul Biberian
E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
tel: (33) 491 72 35 45 voice mail
      (33) 476 82 67 51
      (33) 660 14 04 85 cellular
********************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 13:49:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11268;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:48:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:48:21 -0800
Message-Id: <349EDD75.52BBA114 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:36:53 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: TL formulas needed
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"hLV_U2.0.yl2.Z0kdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14150
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

I need formula to find the impedance of a transmission line formed by two parallel cylindrical conductor.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 15:10:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24153;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:59:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:59:12 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:55:24 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: Enyo and Mizuno on pressure
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712221758_MC2-2CE8-A84 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"VcG9B.0.Iv5._2ldq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14151
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

There has been some discussion here about how many atmospheres of pressure
electrolysis exerts. The experts disagree about this issue. Here is a section
from the Mizuno book about this topic, which I happen to be struggling with
today. This is one of the more technically difficult parts of the book I have
run into. I do not understand it yet, but I'll take a stab at translating it:

     . . . pressure increases by the fourth power compared to overpotential .
     . .  Given that, you might suppose you can increase pressure
     indefinitely by increasing the electric current, but things do not not
     work out so easily.

     Fleischmann and Pons' Error

     When this research got underway, Fleischmann and Pons described the
     hydrogen electrolysis reactions inadequately, and made a large error in
     their paper. They claimed, "when electrolysis current density reaches
     0.6 amperes per square centimeter, overpotential reaches 1.5 volts.
     Therefore, since 1400/30 = 46.7, pressure as high as 10^47 atmospheres
     can be achieved, which should suffice to cause nuclear fusion." However,
     that is not the case.

     What they call "overpotential" includes both the electrical discharge
     reaction and the recombination [that is, D2 formation] reaction. But
     only recombination ties in directly with pressure. Enyo's experiments
     revealed that no matter how much you increase the current, recombination
     overpotential will not exceed ~150 milliamps, in which case pressure is
     150/30 = 5, in other words, it reaches only about 10^5 atmospheres.
     [Reference 12]

     Many researchers think that pushing a large load of deuterons into the
     palladium ought to be somehow related to heat generation. They emphasize
     this goal. But, however much you increase current density, that alone
     can never increase deuteron loading (the D/Pd ratio) beyond unity. You
     can heat up the lattice or expose it to a magnetic field; you can anneal
     the palladium, or alloy it to other metals. You can process the metal to
     make the surface smooth. Nothing will help.

     - from T. Mizuno, "Kakuhenkan, jyouon kakuyuugou no shinjitsu [Nuclear
     Transmutation, the Reality of Cold Fusion]," (Kougakusha, 1997), pp. 206
     - 207

Reference 12 is: T. Maoka and M. Enyo: Electrochmica Acta, 26, No. 5, 615
(1981)
M. Enyo and T. Maoki: J. Electroanal. Chem., 108, 277 (1980)

So if you want to know more about how much pressure electrolysis exerts, see
Enyo & Maoki.

I think what Enyo is getting at is that pressure is proportional only to the
energy required to prevent D2 formation at the surface, not to total
overpotential. The quote from Pons and Fleischmann is my translations of
Mizuno's Japanese version of the original statement. No doubt it has been
mangled by translation; anything is. (As the Italians say "translators are
traitors.") This may be a paraphrase of what they wrote, rather than a direct
quote. I'll have to get back to the original paper or consult with Mizuno.


My own gut feeling is that pressure is irrelevant to the CF effect. CF occurs
when some complex state of matter is created at the surface or near surface of
a metal hydride. This state has been achieved with gas loading, sparking,
electromigration (maybe) and with other methods that cannot produce ultra high
loading, except perhaps locally in tiny spots. Years ago, Storms remarked that
Arata's results indicate that relatively "soft" loading will work. Low current
density and (I presume) low loading seems to be okay with nickel. Mizuno and
others have said for many years that high loading is a non-issue; a
distraction. Or, as we programmers say, it's a canard.

Gas loading with a pump, by the way, is a heck of a lot more complicated than
it sounds. You don't just hook a high pressure pump to a cell full of titanium
chips and blast away. You cycle the pressure up and down many times, and you
periodically cool the metal down to extremes. Brute force pressure alone will
not drive the gas into the metal. I do not think gas loading is effective with
palladium in any case. It seems to work well with titanium and nickel.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 15:36:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25507;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:26:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:26:57 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: A new surface effect?
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:25:19 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a0eefd.6225989 mail.eisa.net.au>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1NyRr2.0.PE6.-Sldq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14152
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Yesterday it clicked. I was going through a list of the Debye temps of
various metals, and noticed that potassium has quite a low DB temp.
relative to say Pd or Ti. 
I had also read the Melvin Miles report in IE No. 15&16, wherein
mention was made of co-deposition of metals with H or D, as a fast
startup method.
Then the skeptics are always complaining about electroplating as a
possible alternative explanation for strange elements.
And that was all the pieces. 

So suppose that during operation of an electrolysis cell, the alkali
metal and H or D are sometimes co-deposited in a very thin layer on
the electrode surface. The mismatch in atom sizes between the
electrode material and the alkali metal mixed with the H or D ensures
that the lattice thus formed is fairly asymmetrical, resulting in a
phonon BE-condensate at near room temperatures.
This can then result in two types of CF, depending on whether H or D
is used. Because H + H reactions are so unlikely (weak force), the
only fast reaction path for H lies in a reaction with either the
alkali metal or the substrate.
When D is used, the D + D -> He4 path becomes available, with the He4
getting 'all' the energy of the reaction in the form of kinetic
energy, with the lattice absorbing the 'kick' (like a swimmer pushing
off against the end of the pool).

PS if I've just reinvented the wheel, don't hesitate to roll over me
:).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 15:48:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28091;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349EFAE5.1CBC interlaced.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:42:29 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: TL formulas needed
References: <349EDD75.52BBA114 verisoft.com.tr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"AV8j23.0.ls6.Jildq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14153
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I need formula to find the impedance of a transmission line formed by two parallel cylindrical conductor.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar

Hamdi, my old 1962 edition of "The radio amateur's handbook" gives the
following formula for the characteristic impedance of an air-insulated
parallel-conductor (round wire or tube, I'm sure):

		Zc = 276 * log_10(b/a) ohms

where	Zc = characteristic impedance, ohms
	b  = center-to-center distance between conductors
	a  = radius of conductor (same units as b)

It looks like the log is a base-10 log.

Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 15:54:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29861;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: TL formulas needed
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:48:03 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0f34$0b418040$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"xzUzy2.0.RI7.Vpldq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14154
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 2:54 PM
Subject: TL formulas needed


>Hi,
>
>I need formula to find the impedance of a transmission line formed by two
parallel cylindrical conductor.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar
>
Hi Hamdi

Try Capacitance C = 27.7/(ln D/r) picofarads/meter or
12.07(log D/r) picofarads/meter

Inductance L = 4E-7 ln D/r   henry/meter
or 9.21E-7 log D/r henry/meter

Impedance Z = (L/C)^1/2

Wave Velocity v = 1/(L*C)^1/2

For a coaxial cable:

L = 2E-7 ln b/a   a is the outer radius of the inner conductor and b is the
radius from the axis to the inside diameter of the outer conductor.

Or L = 4.60E-7 log b/a henry/meter

C =  55.5 er/ln b/a  picofarad/meter or
C = 24.04 er/ log b/a  picofarad/meter

Z = (L/C)^1/2
v = 1/(L*C)^1/2

Best Regards,       Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 16:13:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06251;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:08:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:08:32 -0800
Message-Id: <199712230008.QAA23376 iceland.it.earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: pressure
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:13:03 -0600
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman macsrule.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971222145342.006a6528 world.std.com>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971222145342.006a6528 world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"UMa5r3.0.bX1._3mdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14155
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

It doesn't make sense that the free energy devices employed by those like Pons and Fleischmann would have enough pressure to cause fusion. However, we see trace amounts of fusion byproduct after the reactions are run. However, in many of these cases, the 
amount of byproduct is not proportional to the energy released, which suggests something else is going on. When the discovery of Zero Point Energy first hit, many theorized that it had the potential to unlimited energy. Experiments have been done using ch
anneled plasma that forces the nucleii to rotate cross-directionally. Such devices have produced energy *at least* on the order of so-called cold fusion.

Would anyone be interested in testing my little hypothesis on why this is so? What if Zero Point Energy, which has been shown to actually hold atoms together, rendering many parts of Quantum Mechanics obsolete. What if ZPE held all matter together at all 
levels? What if ZPE was responsible for time, space, and gravity? What if all molecular, atomic, nuclear, and particle interactions were the result of the Zero Point Energy radiation eminating from everywhere in the entire Universe (except for where a lar
ge concentration of nucleii's create a sort of ZPE shadow, ie gravity).

What if the jerkish movement of the nucleii in the plasma field was actually causing a ZPE "wake"? And what would happen if matter was caught in the ZPE wake? It would disintegrate in proportion with the level of the ZPE fluctuation. So, theoretically, th
e closer the ZPE radiation on a particular mass approaches zero, the more the energy release from the matter disintegration would approach E=3DMC*C...

What if all free energy devices were creating sub-atomic wakes of ZPE? What if the *excess* energy from these sub-atomic matter disintegrations caused fusion in these devices? What if ZPE fluctuations is the real reason that fission, fusion, and all other
 exothermic processes give out energy, because minute ZPE wakes are occuring?

If anyone is interested in testing my hypothesis, please let me know. I don't have the equipment to test this idea...




Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 16:56:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14311;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:50:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:50:20 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <2b2658e8.349f0784 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:36:17 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: pressure/superconductivity
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"ksN6o2.0.WV3.Ahmdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14156
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

M A Collans writes
...............................................

It doesn't make sense that the free energy devices employed by those like Pons
and Fleischmann would have enough pressure to cause fusion. However, we see
trace ..

....................................................

True....now let's us figure out how the loading of electrons in a lattice
induces superconductivity....I believe it has something to do with evanscence
and a change in the band structure of a solid.  I have not take sold state yet
and am at a loss in solving this probem.
................................................
Hal Fox and I just had a discussion....He told me some things.  .this IS the
thing to do.  
If you care to read my ideas on the subject they are posted near the bottom of
my home page.

 <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/FZNIDARSIC/index.html">Yusmar Johnstown
Znidarsic</A>

You all should know.

OTHER REFERENCES: 
•W. L. McMillan, "Transition Temperature of Strong-Coupled 
Superconductors", Physical Review, vol. 167, pp. 331-167 (1968). •T. 
Skoskiewicz, "Superconductivity in the Palladium-Hydrogen and 
Palladium-Nickel-Hydrogen Systems", Phys. Stat. Sol. (a), vol. 11, K123 
(1972). •B. Stritzker, "High Superconducting Transition Temperatures in 
the Palladium-Noble Metal-Hydrogen System", Z. Physik, vol. 268, pp. 
261-264 (1974). •D. A. Papaconstantopoulos and B. M. Klein, 
"Superconductivity in the Palladium-Hydrogen System", Physical Review 
Letters, vol. 35, pp. 110-113 (1975). 

 

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:22:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20972;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:14:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:14:45 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:09:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: General idea RQM
In-Reply-To: <34a19a15.54969569 mail.eisa.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971222200513.3387B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"AzrVC1.0.c75.42ndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14157
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 




	The few microvolts was in the text associated [on the www site] 
with the square coils, stepper motor and so on.  Then if that was not 
enough for me, the acquisition and processing was digital, as I 
understand it.  Even with full details of the A/D board and so on, I 
would not personally be able to make a judgement call, unless I was 
personally there with good ANALOG equipment.  Most computers I have 
worked with ... where we input analog signal to A/D board "glow in the 
dark" ... I would guess 90% + of the computer designers only care about 
analog as it relates to the output devices, ie., screen and speakers.

					J


On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:57:01 -0500 (EST), John Schnurer wrote:
> [snip]
> >motors controlled by computer.  This motion which is carefully controlled 
> >results in 3 to 5 microVolts of out put.
> [snip]
> John,
> 
> I seemed to have missed the bit about 3-5 microvolts. Could you point
> me to the document where this is stated?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Robin
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:45:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26661;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:41:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:41:26 -0800
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <61e7b3ef.349f149e aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:32:11 EST
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: I will keep it simple with this question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"x32b33.0.QW6.4Rndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14158
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi all,
 If I take a permanent magnet and pick up a piece of steel with it and when I
pull the steel off the permenent magnet, the steel has become magnetized, I
lay down the steel and pick up another piece of steel and do the same thing,
and keep repeating this 1000 times, will the permanent magnet become less
magnetic because it magnetized 1000 DIFFERENT pieces of steel? yes, no,
Thanks,
Butch

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:47:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26889;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:42:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:42:47 -0800
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <59d49a73.349f123c aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:22:02 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Fwd: Popular Mechanics article Dec. 97, NASA's Antigravity Machine
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part0_882840122_boundary"
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"k92pE2.0.2a6.MSndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14159
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_882840122_boundary
Content-ID: <0_882840122 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part0_882840122_boundary
Content-ID: <0_882840122 inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Return-path: <HLafonte aol.com>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Popular Mechanics article Dec. 97, NASA's Antigravity Machine
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:20:52 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

For your info: If you can't get access to this article let me know, If I get
any requests, I will get it scanned and put it on my web site. 2 pages, 3
photos
Butch

--part0_882840122_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:54:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18583;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:47:02 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:47:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <349F1662.6266E039 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:39:46 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: TL formulas needed
References: <01bd0f34$0b418040$LocalHost default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cudGP3.0.4Y4.IWndq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14160
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Francis and Frederick,

Thanks lot for prompt help.
I gonna try use these formulas and another one that I found for two wires:  Zo=120.acosh(D/d)

Also need the wave velocity formula that Frederick was supplied.

Thanks again,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 17:59:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA31213;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:58:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:58:05 -0800
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:57:59 -0800
Message-Id: <199712230157.RAA15630 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: I will keep it simple with this question
Resent-Message-ID: <"EhaKm1.0.cd7.hgndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14161
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Hi all,
> If I take a permanent magnet and pick up a piece of steel with it and when I
>pull the steel off the permenent magnet, the steel has become magnetized, I
>lay down the steel and pick up another piece of steel and do the same thing,
>and keep repeating this 1000 times, will the permanent magnet become less
>magnetic because it magnetized 1000 DIFFERENT pieces of steel? yes, no,

I know that magnets can lose some of their power for many reasons, so it
would depend on the type of magnet you used.  In short, the answer would
probably always be yes.  But using some types of magnets you could probably
accomplish the task and end up with your original magnet still about as
strong as when you began.

But before you go trying to build an OU device out of that process somehow,
remember that in order to bring the magnet into contact, and then out of
contact with your magnet, you had to perform some work by resisting the
force of the magnet.  So you aren't getting the steel to be magnetized for
free, you performed work to accomplish it.  So even if the original magnet
remains unchanged, and you manage to magnetize a bunch of other steel, you
haven't yet done anything important.

That said, let your imagination run free.  But don't forget where the work
came from to get the job done.

Ross Tessien.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:05:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA32011;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:01:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:01:27 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971222214004.0097bc78 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:40:07 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: I will keep it simple with this question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"MMxjF3.0.zp7.rjndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14162
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 08:32 PM 12/22/97 EST, you wrote:
>Hi all,
> If I take a permanent magnet and pick up a piece of steel with it and when I
>pull the steel off the permenent magnet, the steel has become magnetized, I
>lay down the steel and pick up another piece of steel and do the same thing,
>and keep repeating this 1000 times, will the permanent magnet become less
>magnetic because it magnetized 1000 DIFFERENT pieces of steel? yes, no,
>Thanks,
>Butch
>
>

No, the magnet will not demagnetize. Your arm will get tired though.
(I'm being serious here, not a flip comment). Can you see why?

KPN

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:13:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21843;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:06:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:06:39 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:08:25 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"M3F_O2.0.DL5.jondq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14163
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

It seems to me a key point regarding energy is that energy and mass are
inseperable, at least with regard to the electro-magnetic (EM) force.  The
universe may or may not spontaneously create mass and therefore energy from
the vacuum, but it seems certain to me that mass and energy must remain in
the balance E/m = c^2.  That is because photons carry momentum.  To
conserve momentum, a photon absorbed by a mass must receive the kinetic
energy K corresponding to the change in velocity due to the momentum
change, and K=E.  However, by the special theory of relativity, that
results in a corresponding increase in apparent mass of the absorbing body
by the ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta m).  Therefore *both* mass and energy
are always conserved in an EM exchange, as is the ratio E/m.  The process
also works in reverse, i.e. atoms radiating, due to electrons (or other
particles) dropping energy levels, must lose the corresponding mass.

If this idea of the conservation of the mass/energy balance in the
universe, with regards to the EM force, is accepted, it has consequences
about where to search for energy, and how to test a device for production
of energy.  First, since we are surrounded by mass, we are surrounded by
energy, which was self evident to begin with.  Unfortunately the concept
gives no direct clues about how to obtain the energy, other than to convert
the mass to photons.  However, excluding nuclear energy devices, typical
free energy devices are though to violate either the first or second laws
of thermodyanmics, thus are sometimes referred to as "type one" or "type
two" devices, depending on which law is violated.  Also, quantum mechanics
gives us the possible loophole of action at a distance, i.e. the
possibility of quantum linkages transcending space and time, thus the
possibility of instantaneously transferring energy (and thus mass) or mass
(and thus energy) between differing points in the universe.  Lastly, solar
energy is considered renewable, and thus free.  Even though the source of
solar energy is nuclear, it is located very remotely from the point of
application, thus maybe deserves its own classification.  This seems to
leave us with five fundamental classifications of free energy devices:

Type 1: Violates the law of conservation of energy.  If you accept my
assertion of a constant universal m/E ratio, then this type of device must
create both mass and energy from nothing.  Some vacuum energy devices,
including black holes, might be of this kind.  However it might be shown
that such is really only the result of a type 4 action.  The "borrowed
energy" then would not come from the vacuum, but somewhere else in the
universe - a big shell game.

Type 2: Violates the laws of entropy:  A special intelligent "Maxwell's
demon" magically transfers energy from one compartment to another even if
the two compartments are the same or opposing temperatures.  This is
normally attempted at the molecular level by selectively taking advantge of
the properties of faster or more energetic molecules in the gaussian
distribution of molecular energies.  The universal balance of mass and
energy remains constant, but the energy is recycled.

Type 3: Lowers the kinetic state of matter to a less excited state, and
transfers that energy to photons and/or kinetic energy of components of the
event.   This is the source of nuclear power.  Also relates to hydrino
formation.  If much "ground state" matter could be converted to a lower
ground state, then a depleatable, though vast, source of of power would be
available.  If some means could be found to the recycle the low energy
state mass via one of the other type devices, a renewable energy source
would then be available.

Type 4: Transfers, by instantaneous action at a distance, energy/mass from
elsewhere in the universe to the point of need/action.  This is the source
of energy for ZPE(lattice) devices.

Type 5: Utilizes energy beamed from somewhere else at the speed of light.
This is the primary means of powering the ecosystem - via solar radiation.
This would also be the basis for ZPE(vacuum) devices.

If this is a complete clasification, then there are only five basic
strategies for obtaining free energy.

Type 4 devices are especially interesting.  For example, it may be possible
to determine, by experiment, a link (or lack of a link) between tunneling
and gravity.  This could permanently put an end to the question of whether
gravity and/or inirtia is a second order EM effect. This could be done by
placing one or more electron tunneling devices (e.g tunnel diodes) in
various orientations in the ambient gravitational field and also in a
centrifuge.  If tunneling depends only on electric field potential, and is
independent of gravitational potential, end of the issue, as the current
will remain constant at a given electric potential in all situations.
Further, if tunneling is independent of acceleration, then a means for an
infinite ISP spacecraft drive is available.  An infinite ISP drive provides
a means of borrowing an infinite amount of energy while going from A to B.

Happy Holidays!

Horace


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:14:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00131;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:05:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:05:50 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0c4ab1b4f67 [199.237.131.240]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:08:21 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Resent-Message-ID: <"Nykfa1.0.n1.znndq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14164
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Horace
>        Black holes dissipate due to quatum effects. This could explain
>the "Big Bang"?
>Hank
[snip]

That's only a theory isn't it? (Could be true, I'll admit, just doesn't
jive in my amateur's brain).  It is based on the idea that
particle-antiparticle pairs near the boundary of the Schwarzchild radius
separate, thus creating matter from the vaccum, is it not?  This is
nonsense to me, as annihilation inside a black hole can not diminish its
mass due to the fact the photons from the annihilation must carry the
corresponding mass, and they can not escape any more than the other mass
can.

Black holes can theoretically be created with *any* amount of mass,
provided it is all located within the Schwartzchild radius for that mass.
Very small black holes with tiny Schwartzchild radii can evaporate by
tunneling.  It seems like a large enough black hole could manufacture mass
from the vacuum faster than internal mass could tunnel out over vast
distances, IMHO.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:34:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05601;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:29:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:29:54 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Storms on BLP experiment
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:28:55 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <349f0dba.14096580 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3.0.1.32.19971221113746.006cc9b4 mail.eden.com>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971221113746.006cc9b4 mail.eden.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"4kL6C1.0.QN1.X8odq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14165
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:37:46 -0600, Scott Little wrote:

>Ed Storms has examined our proposed BLP experiment and writes:
>
>>Scott,
>>I read your description of the proposed Blacklight replication with
>>interest. I have a few comments.  They claim to use KNO2, which is
>>potassium nitrite, while you are using KNO3, which is potassium nitrate.
>>KNO2 will decompose at high temperature (400°) to give K2O, N2 and O2. 
>>This reaction is exothermic.  The O2 will react with the H2 to give
>>additional heat.  On the other hand, KNO3 is stable.  I'm at a loss as
>>to why either chemical form is used.  If I wanted to have potassium
>>available with the least chemical uncertainty and highest pressure I
>>would use K metal. Unless the KNO3 gets very hot, the vapor pressure of
>>K is going to be be very low.  Since, according to Miles, this atom must
>>carry away the energy to allow formation of the hydrino, the
>>availability of K in the vapor,  ie its vapor pressure, will determine
>>the rate of energy production. Thus, the temperature of the potassium
>>source will be the critical parameter.
>
>What about this KNO2 vs KNO3?  I find many references to KNO3 on the BLP
>web page and only one to KNO2.  I assumed it was a typo.  Anybody know?
[snip]
I think it needs to be pointed out here that it is not K atoms, but K+
ions that are required. The reaction in question is:

2K+ + H -> K++ + K + Hy .

IOW 2 K+ ions plus 1 H atom result in a K atom plus a doubly charged K
ion and a hydrino.
So potassium metal is probably not a good idea, especially as this is
all taking place in a reducing atmosphere (H).
OTOH, KNO2 instead of KNO3 may be a good idea, as this may well
disassociate into K+ ions at a lower temp. than KNO3.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:37:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24870;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:31:37 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110702b0c4d0d05e16 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:30:32 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Brush gravity paper online
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fr4rD.0.W46.7Aodq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14166
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


http://www.shore.net/~rmuha/physics/brush

Discussion Of A Kinetic Theory Of Gravitation
And Some New Experiments In Gravitation

Charles F. Brush (read April 22, 1928)

thanks to Fred Epps for discovery and scanning!!!

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:39:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25099;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:34:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:34:01 -0800 (PST)
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <510e919c.349f21c7 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:28:21 EST
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Need to get together on answer to energy source
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"oiJwq2.0.186.MCodq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14167
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, 
We seem to have come to a conclusion on the source of energy when a permenent
magnet magnetizes a piece of steel. The work input to the system when the
permanent magnet is "pulled" from the steel is the source it seems.That source
may me a man's arm, a machine, ect., But it is the source of energy that
magnetizes the steel, using the permanent magnet as a kind of catalist.
Do you all agree?
Butch

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:40:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25766;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:37:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:37:17 -0800 (PST)
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <3009f19d.349f22ea aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:33:12 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Thanks to all, for your input on magnet and steel question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"b117L1.0.LI6.PFodq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14168
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thanks to all,
Butch

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 18:40:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25923;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:37:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:37:54 -0800 (PST)
From: HLafonte <HLafonte aol.com>
Message-ID: <4d96e99.349f1f73 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:18:24 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: I will keep it simple with this question
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"s65pU1.0.zK6.yFodq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14169
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-22 21:04:00 EST, you write:

<< No, the magnet will not demagnetize. Your arm will get tired though.
 (I'm being serious here, not a flip comment). Can you see why?
 
 KPN >>
Yes, my arm is providing the work to magnetize the steel, using the magnet as
a kind of catalyst, right?
Thanks,
Butch

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 19:03:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29325;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:58:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:58:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971222223624.009b9a30 cnct.com>
X-Sender: knagel cnct.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:36:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel cnct.com>
Subject: Re: I will keep it simple with this question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uxrgz1.0.5A7.RZodq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14170
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:18 PM 12/22/97 EST, you wrote:
>Yes, my arm is providing the work to magnetize the steel, using the magnet as
>a kind of catalyst, right?
>Thanks,
>Butch
>

Yup. Further, if you measure the temperature of the iron before and
after pulling you will discover it to be slightly hotter. This is
more pronounced when making magnets out of magnetically hard materials.
These have a very square BH loop, which should tell you something
right there... All that area under the curve represents hysteresis
losses, yes? 

KPN

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 19:21:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12728;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:14:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:14:10 -0800
From: Tstolper aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:13:31 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <971222221331_-285388404 mrin54>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Shermer's *Weird Things*
Resent-Message-ID: <"Lb86-2.0.l63.0oodq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14171
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

There's a humorous review of Michael Shermer's 1997 book, *Why People Believe
Weird Things*, in the September 4, 1997, issue of NATURE (Vol. 389, p. 29).
 The review was written by John C. Marshall, a neuropsychologist at Oxford U.

Marshall wrote that Shermer just worked over a mixed bag of the usual
suspects.

Marshall asked, re Shermer's trashing of ESP work at the Edgar Cayce
Association for Research and Enlightenment, "Would it not have been more
revealing to look at some of the many eminently respectable scientists who
are conducting kosher research on guessing those little symbols on Zener
cards?"

Marshall wrote that he knew an atheist neuroscientist who didn't believe in
immortality but who had had a spiritually rewarding near-death experience.

Marshall continued:  "Certainly the number of currently unexplained brain
states is more than enough to keep neuroscientists busy for some time yet.
 For example, when friends tell me that they have been abducted by aliens,
taken off to UFOs and there experimented upon, I am happy to explain that
their experiences arise from subclinical temporal lobe epilepsy.  But when
they ask *how* such overactivity produces those specific experiences, my ums
and ers cause them to shake their heads sadly at my credulity."

Marshall ended his review of weird beliefs thus:  

"By contrast, in the very university in which I work, there are people who
claim that an occult force linking the Earth and the Moon provokes the tides
to ebb and flow, and that minute creatures too small for the naked eye to see
are capable of causing disease.  Only this week, I heard that pink worms are
dining on solid methane at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.  And that if you
send one member of a pair of simultaneously created photons to Bellevue and
the other to Bernex (two villages near Geneva), each one knows what the other
is doing and itself does likewise.

To believe in ESP and little green men seems fairly tame in comparison."

Zener cards?  What are those?  Maybe Robert I. Eachus would know.

I'll be offline over the holidays.  To quote the noted philanthropist S.
Claus, "Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night."

Tom Stolper

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 20:42:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14114;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:39:09 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:39:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311070cb0c4ea8e6a5b [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <349DF02C.A75 interlaced.net>
References: <v01530501b0c3830622c9 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:38:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
Resent-Message-ID: <"Dk2fs2.0.NS3.h1qdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14172
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
> Photons must have mass.  Photons are
>> composed of EM fields, which have mass corresponding to their energy. The
>> photons must carry the corresponding mass.
>>
>
>My hero!!  Yes!  Horace, perhaps it is just "neat" for particle guys to
>define the rest mass of a photon as zero.  (You and I know they NEVER
>are at rest!)  How about a big "gasbag" of a photon like a microwave
>photon at 2400 MHz.  It's just a big blob of E and H fields moving at
>the speed of light.  I agree on their energy content having mass -
>unless there is some relativistic weirdness caused by the propagation
>at c.  Do the E and H fields move forward at c or is it only the
>CHANGING that moves forward?  In a water wave the water has only local
>orbital movement, right? - only the WAVE moves across the pond, right?

Prof. Collins (of "Is Gravity Electromagnetic?") has an interesting
angle on this subject.  In several other papers, he argues that our
basic understanding of EM is flawed because the Hertz solutions to
the Maxwell Equations use retarded time (t' = t-r/v).  Since photons
are moving at (or near) c, their clocks must slow down and their
length must contract. In Collins' view, photons are 'flattened,
frozen wave-packets' that only exhibit wave-like behavior when
they are detected (and thus, drop out of light speed).

Several recent post have discussed phase velocities that are
much greater than c.  If c is a limit on propagation velocity,
then it is easy to accept that there may be some higher velocity
limit in the micro-structure of particles.  But if we accept SR,
then we must accept that as velocity approaches c, everything,
including the micro-structure, must slow down accordingly...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 21:54:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22595;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:49:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0c4f8573e0c [199.237.131.240]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:51:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Need to get together on answer to energy source
Resent-Message-ID: <"sbRfT.0.zW5._3rdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14173
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:28 PM 12/22/97, HLafonte wrote:
>Hi,
>We seem to have come to a conclusion on the source of energy when a permenent
>magnet magnetizes a piece of steel. The work input to the system when the
>permanent magnet is "pulled" from the steel is the source it seems.That source
>may me a man's arm, a machine, ect., But it is the source of energy that
>magnetizes the steel, using the permanent magnet as a kind of catalist.
>Do you all agree?
>Butch


No.  I don't agree. The final permanently magnetized steel is in a lower
energy state than the original unmagnetized steel.  Suppose the magnetizing
magnet is an electromagnet, and in the starting configuration the
magnetizing magnet is driven by a charged capacitor.  Further assume there
is no resistance.  As the discharge begins the steel is drawn toward the
electromagnet, giving itself forward velocity, and retarding the discharge
through the electromagnet due to the overall increase in B, which opposes
the charging current.  If all is timed right, when the polarity of the
electromagnet changes due to the eventual LC current oscillation, the now
to some degree permanently magnetized magnet will be repelled, and as it is
repelled, the induced change of field in the electromagnet will further
charge the capacitor during the exit, plus the piece of steel will retain
some of its velocity.  It can be expected the steel will cool slightly in
such a process.  It might be possible to glean ever so small an amount of
energy if the cooled magnet were near the critical temperature for the
steel and the steel could spontaneously loose its magnetism upon heating
back to ambient.  In a practical sense, there is resistance, so this is
difficult to pull off, at best.  Th process can be improved somewhat using
a nonconducting ferrrite in place of the steel.  Such a repetitive heat
pumping hysteresis based process might better be attempted using
superconductors operating near Tc.

Side note - posting simultaneously to the two newsgroups is a violation of
the vortex rules.  This response is to vortex only.  I suspect the readers
here, if like me, are glad for a brief relief from those SMOT related EM
discussions etc., so I hesitated to answer this.  This was all hashed out
in depth over the past some months and is in the vortex log.  Hopefully I
got everything right in the paragraph above.  Personally, I am very glad to
see the serious and civil CF/ZPE discussions here once again and am
learning from them.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 22:11:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07862;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:03 -0800
Message-ID: <349F470D.1E12 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:07:25 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wolfy2@erols.com,
        ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch
Subject: Britz: re Arata Cathode Design
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"aRbLt2.0.Zw1.8Jrdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14174
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz chemistry.aau.dk>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Arata and Zhang Cathode Design
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:48:20 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971222092347.23207A-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <199712191645.LAA24224 pilot015.cl.msu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <199712191645.LAA24224 pilot015.cl.msu.edu>

On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Richard A Blue wrote:

> It seems obvious to me that the Arata and Zhang experiments differ
> significantly from all other CF investigations because they employ
> a unique cathode design yet no one seems to have picked up on any
> of the implications of this design.
> 
> As I understand it the Arata-Zhang cathode consists of a metal capsule
> filled with varying amounts of Pd black.  The key assertion with regard
> to the detected 3He and 4He as reaction products is that they are found
> internal to the Pd black and are release only at a very elevated temperature.
> 
> Is it not obvious (and possibly very significant) that in this configuration
> the Pd black where the reaction is thought to occur is never in contact with
> the electrolyte?  In fact this design clearly reduces the role of the
> electrolysis to nothing more than an indirect means for supply gas to
> pressurize the interior of the capsule.  I should think any speculation about
> a role for lithium in the nuclear process can now be laid to rest, for
> example.  I rather doubt that the Pd black makes any contact with lithium
> or any other "magic" ingredients that may be present in the electrolyte.
[...]
> Once it is recognized that gas pressure in the capsule is the controlling
> parameter for the experiment then a direct pressurization with gas is the
> obvious way to do the experiment.

I don't know, gas cylinders of deuterium must be expensive and hard work to
lug around, whereas a cell voltage is easy to apply. F&P had an overvoltage
of 0.8 V and used that figure to calculate what should have been a fugacity
of 10^26; a 70's paper of Bockris and coworker allows us to convert that to a
pressure of about 10^4 atm. I reckon that the electrochemical way is easier.
You are right, A&Z have a metal/gas system here, and noone can charge them
with impurities deposited - or invoke lithium codeposition as a magic
ingredient. I can't say how well that Pd bottle will stand up to pressure -
that might be another detail hidden in these papers.

[...]
> Now do you really believe that Arata and Zhang really have a cleaver cathode
> design?  Is this experiment on a very sound basis?

I reckon it's not a bad design, eliminating, as I say, surface problems. It
would no doubt increase the time constant for calorimetry. Mike Carrell has
pointed me at a couple of figures in the big A&Z paper (J. High. Temp. Soc.
23 (1997) special volume) which do make a pretty good case for excess heat.
I certainly can't put my finger on possible errors that can explain excess
heat about an order of magnitude larger than the rms of the measurement, as
found from a control using a Pt cathode. I'd still like to know the actual
temperatures at the cooling coil inlet and outlet, and their errors, but on
the face of it, this seems to be a quality plus, as does their MS 4He
detection. But then, as Russ George has complained to me, I know little about
MS, so maybe I shouldn't be too hasty declaring a qual+ here.

> Now suppose I make 3He instead?  How do you get the numbers to work out
> when you make 3He from deuterium?  Can you count the marbles?
> 
> Isn't there a bit of a problem because two deuterons make one 3He with a little
> bit left over?  Oh my goodness, its those pesky neutrons again!  Where does
> the extra neutron go?

Good point; recently, A&Z did find 3He, using their nifty MS trick. So they
should have also seen the equivalent number of neutrons. Maybe (?) they
were not checking for them? For their own health, they ought to be. We have
been told how the 24 MeV gammas dissipate as plain heat, and there are some
cluey physicists who find this plausible; but how about these neutrons? They
might be harder to explain away.

> Now, Dieter, aren't we perhaps justified to ask questions about the validity
> of the calorimetric results?  Everything else about the experiment is just
> a little strange.

When have I ever said that you are not justified asking questions? Questions
are good. I am against blanket condemnations and absurd attempts at orthodox
explanations (not aiming at you in particular, Dick). Please go on asking
your questions. But even within a paper, if everything seems strange, you still
have to do better that that to dismiss a given part of it. If - as I say - you
care to. I just sit back and let others try to work it out.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
                                    NB this ^^ means chemistry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 22:16:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28513;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349F48A7.6FB9 earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:14:15 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu,
        wolfy2 erols.com, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
Subject: Britz: re Arata spillover effect
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"kCU8B1.0.Rz6.1Qrdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14175
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fci-se!fci!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!130.226.1.34.MISMATCH!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz chemistry.aau.dk>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Sixth Arata Critique: cathode; Carrell posts (Part 1/2)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:39:58 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971222102919.23207C-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <349CB6E5.545E earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <349CB6E5.545E earthlink.net>

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

[...]
> The "spillover effect" I do not quite understand. But A&Z seem to say
> that electrolysis can drive D into the capsule shell, and it diffuses
> into the inner space containing the Pd-black, and then powerfully into
> the Pd-black. This is discussed at length in Appendix 1, pp. 46-7: 
> ------------------
> "...The concentration of deuterium ions in pd-black is very much higher
> than in the outer cathode. The authors have named this rapid,
> high-density build-up of [in?} fine particles "pumping-up action" under
> "Spillover-effect". The strength of this phenomenon is determined by the
> particle size and material elements. {Illustrated in Fig 7 - MC} Called
> the 'spillover effect", it is based on the dynamic catalyzing reaction
> of fine particles. [ref. to a paper, " on Spillover" in the 3rd ICCF].
> None of these phenomena occur with the conventionally used "SS-cathode"
> (single structure cathode: shaped in a plate, rod, etc....) and the only
> behavior of deuterium is normal dispersion....
[...]

I am never sure just who said what in these postings passed on from
vortex-l, but never mind. I think "Spill-over" here simply means that
deuterium generated at the outside of the Pd bottle by electrolysis
passes through to the bottle's interior and then to the Pd black in
there. It is thermodynamically not possible for the Pd black to absorb
deuterium to higher levels that the bottle wall itself, unless you
postulate different properties for the Pd black than for crystalline
Pd itself; I don't think there is good reason for such a postulate. So
what is happening here is deuterium going through the bottle walls and
gettting soaked up by the Pd black. I see no reason why the Pd black
should be special, different from the bottle itself. People who use stuff
like that use it for its high surface area, as catalysts for example.

I think the figure of 10^5 atm is too high, 10^4 is about the limit as I
understand it (see Bockris & Subramanyan 1971 in the Peripherals file in
my bibliography collection).

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
                                    NB this ^^ means chemistry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 22:17:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28779;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:15:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:15:41 -0800 (PST)
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:04:42 -0800
Subject: ZPE and plasma ignition
Message-ID: <19971222.220513.9006.2.tv juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.38
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-12
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"N99dT1.0.b17.ASrdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14176
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Thinking about Plasma devices like Moray, Correa, and Chernetskii.

At the moment when a gas becomes ionized by dielectic breakdown, free
electrons become more numerous.  Could it be that this sudden increased
population of free electrons quickly gain kinetic energy from the ZPE
fluctuations while the much more massive ions would not ?  Might this
cause a momentary electron current gain ?

Any thoughts ?

Tim Vaughan

( tv juno.com )

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 23:22:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21822;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:19:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:19:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0c5051e3e9f [199.237.131.250]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:22:17 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Storms on BLP experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"w-0ge.0.uK5.6Osdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14177
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:28 PM 12/22/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>I think it needs to be pointed out here that it is not K atoms, but K+
>ions that are required. The reaction in question is:
>
>2K+ + H -> K++ + K + Hy .
>
>IOW 2 K+ ions plus 1 H atom result in a K atom plus a doubly charged K
>ion and a hydrino.
>So potassium metal is probably not a good idea, especially as this is
>all taking place in a reducing atmosphere (H).
>OTOH, KNO2 instead of KNO3 may be a good idea, as this may well
>disassociate into K+ ions at a lower temp. than KNO3.
[snip]


The K++ ionization potential is 31.63 eV above the potential for the K+,
which is 4.34 eV. That gives a net 27.29 eV to be taken from the hydrino
creation, which is a somewhat incredible three body interaction.  The
energy said to be released by hydrino creation is said to be 27.21 eV.  It
seems the reaction is 0.08 eV short.  If that is to come from the kinetic
energy of the reaction, then the temperature is going to have to be up
around 1/2*(0.08 eV) * (11,600 Deg. K/eV) = 464 K (to 928 K) to work.  I
assume that is the idea behind the heating of the gas with a filiment.

Some ideas to throw in the hat:

(1) Maybe use KOH?  Wouldn't be quite as dangerous or misleading as KNO3,
with all its potential energy going in as input.

(2) Maybe it would be possible to establish a sodium arc from an overhead
electrode into the pool of sodium material, be it KNO3, KOH, or pure Na.
Somewhere on the boundary of the arc things would be the right temperature.
it seems like more of the sodium would be ionized as well.  One problem is
that maybe the excess energy signal would get lost in the power of an
arc/spark.

(3) Given that the excess energy can be made up with kinetic energy, as
appears to be assumed by the originators, helium would make a much more
effective catalyst.  The reaction would then be:

    He + H + 2.62 eV -> He+ + Hy + e-

Followed shortly by:

    He+ + e-   ->   He + 24.59 eV

The reactions would have to take place at around (30,400 K)/2 = 15,200 K.
Given that the ionization potential of both H (13.6 eV) and He (24.59 eV)
are well above the 2.62 eV energy desired for the collision, a large
portion of the gas in a reactive zone would be non-ionized.  Also, only a
two particle reaction is necessary.  If the H used were D or a D-T mixture,
you might get some significant radiation due to hydrino-hydrino collisions?
This would best be accomplished at lower temperatures, maybe in an
adjacent water bath. Hmmm... hydrino bonding?

(4)  One way to create the right environment might be on the boundary of an
arc. A good prospect for electrodes would be Mo, since:

Mo++ + e-   ->  Mo+ + 27.13 eV.

This is just 0.08 eV shy of the 27.21 eV to be absorbed from the hydrino
creation, equivalent to 460 K. It is interesting that that is almost
exactly the deficit for the K reaction.  That still requires a mutibody K+
and Mo+ and H reaction, though.  Another possibility might be that the Mo
reaction would radiate away the 0.08 eV, or give it to the reaction
products as kinetic energy, and thus provide a two body reaction path.

(5) As metioned in an earlier post, a strong magnetic field might broaden
the acceptable reaction energies.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 23:27:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22472;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:24:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:24:03 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:23:58 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Free energy machine invented?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971222232331.23408C-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"7gg9Z3.0.-U5.ISsdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14178
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Someone passed me this link to a humourous fake AP story...

   Linkname: Free Energy Machine Invented
        URL: http://atlas.comet.net/~gus/satire/freeenergy.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 23:47:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10285;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:44:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:44:19 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971223014332.006dcd28 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:43:32 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Spillover
In-Reply-To: <199712222132.WAA27831 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"O43Jm.0.dW2.Hlsdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14179
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

(Bless you JP, for writing a couple of paragraphs that state clearly what
the spillover mechanism is thought to be.)

At 10:32 PM 12/22/97 +0100, biberian wrote:

>However all this being said, Arata is doing another trick. He directly gets
>atoms, not molecules that diffuse from the cylinder to the surface of the
>palladium black, without going into the gas phase.

I can see this working for the Pd black particles that touch the inner
walls of the chamber...the H atoms can move right across at the contact
point without coming out into the space between the particles.  Are you
suggesting that ALL the Pd black particles are loaded through the points at
which they touch each other?  

OK, let's assume that is the case.  At a given contact point we have
100,000 atmospheres of effective H pressure causing H atoms to stream into
the Pd black particle.  That leaves the rest of the surface of that
particle (surely many hundreds/thousands of times larger than the area of
the contact point) exposed to nothing except the gas which fills the space
between the particles.  There's nothing in those spaces to keep the H atoms
separate so that gas will revert to molecular H.  Surely then the
equilibrium D/Pd ratio for that pressure (~1000 atm) will be maintained all
over that portion of the surface.

If this is indeed the case, then the 100,000 atm pressure will be
completely dissipated by the time an H atom makes it to the opposite side
of even the first particle.  All the Pd black except the single layer of
particles which are touching the inner walls of the Pd chamber will be
loaded only to the D/Pd concentration for 1000 atm (which I forgot to look
up but promise to do so tomorrow...honest!)

....or do you think the H remains monatomic in the spaces between the Pd
black particles?  If so, then please suggest a mechanism by which it could
do so.

Thanks again.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 22 23:47:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10441;
	Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:45:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:45:45 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:45:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Waves OVER the pond
In-Reply-To: <349DF02C.A75 interlaced.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971222235901.20386F-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"KiRG9.0.3Z2.dmsdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14180
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote:
-snip-
>at c.  Do the E and H fields move forward at c or is it only the 
>CHANGING that moves forward?  In a water wave the water has only local
>orbital movement, right? - only the WAVE moves across the pond, right?
>
>More damn confused than ever, Frank Stenger
>
>
CHANGING YES, but "waves over only the top, "NO"". We already have seismic
sensors that can sit on the oceans bottom 2-3,000 feet down and detect a
millimeters variance (pressures/lift) in a wave above. ORBITAL is assumed
like a 'pebble in a pond' (surface impact). (see above for incoming Tidal
Wave effect/damage))....So, You're Right!. (though NOT the speed of light)
it will MOVE at the SPEED of its energy. Would you Think, that you'd think
that a FISH 
might hear THAT pebble.. (below, at A distance).. IT's (the pebble)
hitting 360 degrees OUT from impact.) Slowed only by thickness of what it
has to go/ripple through. (backward/forward/up/down (and lately(IN*OUT)).
(A rifle shot off a rock on a creek, can spoil a whole day of fishing!)
(hence don't talk in the fishing boat (while fishing)). 

Confused as you, and wishing you & yours well...
-=se=-

(test: leave a droplett of water (1 or 2 a sec.) dripping in your sink
tonight, and see if your wife can "hear", "SENSE" the WAVES.) Stupid test
I know, but it WORKS! (sigh) ..WE/I should listen toooo....zzzzz


seasons greetings
-=se=-

(Note: the pulse/Wave/ seems to grow & Gro & GROW!:)
p.s. THIS "El Nino" has lowered the panama canal (expected 39'), less
whole-hydro = taos-hummm >. and soliton's have been pumping, Pumping,
PUMPING the whole time!  

IN MY FACE ALL THE TIME. Suggest (fixing the faucet), Look to the STARS!





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 01:35:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04098;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:32:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:32:21 -0800
X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0c535d1bbab [199.237.131.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 00:35:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"orwPw2.0.y_.aKudq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14181
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 8:57 PM 12/22/97, Tim D Vaughan wrote:

[snip]
>Could you eleaborate on what you mean by ISP.
>Is ISP the same as specific impulse ?

Yes, sorry about that. I meant to say Isp.

>
[snip]
>Please explain how tunnel diode applies to a space drive ?
>
>Tim
>( tv juno.com )

Actually superconductor junctions might be more appropriate for testing and
use of the concept. For example suppose layers of junctions could be
stacked.  Tunneling occurs across a Josephson junction at zero potential.
A small positive potential actually creates radiation from the junction due
to repeated  tunneling back and forth.  Suppose a superconducting loop is
made like so:


A ----------- D  +
  |         -
  |         -
  |         -  -----> radiation
  |         -
  |         -           ^
  |         -           |
  |         -           |
  |         -      acceleration
  |         -
  |         -
B ----------- C  -


Key:

  |
  | or -- means solid superconductor


  -
  -   means alternating junctions and superconducting layers
  -



and placed on the periphery of a rotating disk to achieve the acceleration.
The downward g force builds a negative potential by accelerating the
electrons downward from A to B, thus creating a potential between A and B.
The electrons are attracted upwards by the potential difference betwen D
and C, and thus tunnel across the many junctions between C and D, without
any accelerating force affecting the return during the instantaneous
tunneling activty.  Therefore the return trip from C to D takes less time
than the trip from A to B, and less work is done on the electrons in
creating a reverse potential since they can simply hop the gaps, even with
zero voltage difference, so there is no work W = F*d applied.  There is
therefore a net thrust applied to both the electrons and the craft bearing
the wheel during each instant.  A net thrust would depend on switching on
and off (or diverting) the current during each half of the disk rotation.
Chopping or diverting the current would then permit coupling to
non-superconductive coils for normal electrical power.  In addition, the
electrons gain mass (very minute!) and energy on the trip from A to B which
is then radiated by the junctions on the return trip from C to D.
Appropiate reflectors could eject the radiation to the rear of the craft.
This method could also be used in a stationary machine to create
mass/energy.  It therefore seems unlikely that tunneling is
gravity/acceleration independent, but you never know until you test nature
to find out.  There are many ways to apply this concept if tunneling
particles are free from gravitational and inirtial influences.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 03:41:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28818;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:37:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:37:48 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Mini Big Bangs?
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 04:34:07 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd0f96$ae41c9a0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"DIUdq.0.627.9Awdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14182
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Using the criteria that charge q is constant:
= 1.602E-19 = CV the "Planck Length" (Gh/c^3)^1/2
= 1.0E-35 meters for a "Superstring Particle" would set
the energy E = .5*CV^2 per "particle" at about 1.5E8 joule:

V = q/C = 1.6E-19/8.84E-12*1.0E-35 = 1.81E27 volts.

Thus E = .5*CV^2 = 1.5E8 joule or m = 1.5E8/c^2 = 1.6E-9 kg
(about 1.6 micrograms).

Or about enough energy to produce about 1.0E18 Hydrogen Atoms per
"MiniBang".     :-)

Continuous Production rather than one "Big Bang"?

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 06:01:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19029;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:57:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 05:57:46 -0800
Message-ID: <349FC2E7.27F640FA ro.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:55:51 -0600
From: "Patrick V. Reavis" <preavis ro.com>
Organization: NASA Volunteer
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <v01530503b0c391096dae [199.237.131.230]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ZDW2C1.0.Ff4.ODydq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14183
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

>   In the early universe, before radiation
> >energy condensed into matter, there was plenty of gravity - all of it
>
> >caused by the energy of photons.  Am I missing something?
> >(As I recall, I got stomped on before for this simplistic view.)
> >
> >Frank Stenger
>
> Me too.
>
> However, here's a poser for you.  The mass of the universe was
> supposedly
> at one point.  Such a point is obviously a black hole.

> How'd we get outa there?
>

Horace,
If  the universe is closed (destined to collapse) could it be that we
never left "outa there"?

--
Have a Good Day,
Patrick V. Reavis


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 06:56:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17677;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:51:55 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:51:55 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971223085133.00a1f628 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:51:33 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: D/Pd TCP chart
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hHuqN1.0.0K4.80zdq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14184
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

My TCP chart for the D/Pd system says:

pressure	temp		D/Pd
1000		20		0.845
1000		70		0.807
1000		100		0.783

100,000	20		0.940
100,000	70		0.915
100,000	100		0.905

Scott




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 06:58:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28301;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:54:25 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 06:54:25 -0800
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <349FC0A2.5197802F mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:46:10 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Brush gravity paper online
References: <v03110702b0c4d0d05e16 [206.243.174.18]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"6a_6Z.0.4w6.W2zdq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14185
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

ralph muha wrote:
> 
> http://www.shore.net/~rmuha/physics/brush
> 
> Discussion Of A Kinetic Theory Of Gravitation
> And Some New Experiments In Gravitation
> 
> Charles F. Brush (read April 22, 1928)
> 
> thanks to Fred Epps for discovery and scanning!!!
> 
> r

Hi Ralph,

I just finished downloading all the gifs.  Thanks
for making this effort.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 08:04:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04935;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:00:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:00:57 -0800
Message-ID: <349FD263.5E59 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:01:55 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, mike_mckubre@qm.sir.com,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, tchubb@aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        simonb post.queenu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu,
        wolfy2 erols.com
Subject: Shannahan: Arata cathode pressure
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"AkvRx3.0.tC1.s0-dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14186
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust84.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.84])
	by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA13966
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:16:36 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349F498A.32CB earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:18:27 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Subject: Shannahan: Arata cathode pressure
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!agate!news1.es.net!irmsrv01.srs.gov!srs.gov!nntp
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Arata and Zhang Cathode Design
Message-ID: <1997Dec22.100032.10029 srs.gov>
From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov (Kirk L. Shanahan)
Date: 22 Dec 97 10:00:32 -0500
References: <199712191645.LAA24224 pilot015.cl.msu.edu>
Organization: As Much As Possible, Whenever

In article <199712191645.LAA24224 pilot015.cl.msu.edu>, 
blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) writes:

>It seems obvious to me that the Arata and Zhang experiments differ
>significantly from all other CF investigations because they employ
>a unique cathode design yet no one seems to have picked up on any
>of the implications of this design.
>

Actually, some of us did notice.   I'm not a mechanical engineer,
but I think the strongest shape for holding high pressures is a sphere 
(i.e. a hollow shell) given equal wall thicknesses and material strengths.  
Also, I am guessing that the weak points in a rectangular shape will be 
the corners and the points where the 'cap(s)' was(were) joined to the 
cylindrical walls.  However I have no knowledge of how to calculate that 
except in the case of a sphere.   There you use a hoop stress equation,

   Max. Internal P = 2*wall thickness*yield strength/inner radius

(Yield strengths of materials can run from 30-150,000 psi in bulk form, but
the lower numbers seem to be the expected ones for thin films.)  Perhaps an 
engineer can post an equivalent equation for a capped cylinder?

In fact have you noticed the connection between this and the Patterson 
Power Cell?  What we find when looking at that equation is that the beads 
used in a Patterson Power Cell are about the optimal size for storing H2 
pressure inside them.  The metal coatings are simply a hydrogen-permeable 
membrane.  However, under some reasonable assumptions on material 
strength, I figured the PPC beads would only sustain a few hundred 
atmospheres pressure before bursting.  It takes substantially thicker/
stronger films to hold pressures normally needed for 'cold fusion' loading 
levels.

Note that the plastic used as the 'membrane support' in the PPC beads is
'transparent to hydrogen' according to Dr. Robert Cook of LLNL in his April
1995 article ( http://www.llnl.gov/etr/04.95.html ).  In fact the H2 will
dissolve in the plastic and cause it to swell a bit as well.  (For more 
info on the use of coated hollow polystrene shells to store H2 for the
Inertial Confinement Fusion program, see the July 1997 issue of Fusion 
Technology, vol 31.  There are several papers there.) 

[snip]
>
>The fact that Pd black is separated from the electrolyte by the walls of
>a capsule further removes any likelyhood that such parameters as current
>density have any significance for the reaction rate.  Little or no current
>will actually pass through the Pd black.

Except that the current density is determined by voltage, resistance, etc.,
and that in turn should determine the equivalent external pressure, which
in turn will determine the metal hydrogen loading and also the internal 
pressure in equilibrium with it.  And all those surface contaminants will
also affect the metal loading level and thereby the internal pressure.  You 
are correct though that you should be able to do the A&Z exp'ts using gas 
loading.

>
>So, perhaps unwittingly, Arata and Zhang have demystified the cold fusion
>reaction process by eliminating a host of possible effects that have been
>the subject of speculation for years.  The question I then raise is why
>not complete the simplification of the experimental design to eliminate
>what are now obvious extraneous complication features.
>
>The only way in which the Pd black inside the capsule can be effectively
>loaded to saturation with deuterium is by exposure to the deuterium
>gas at high pressure inside the capsule.  The electrolysis and electrolysis
>current can play no direct role so why not eliminate them entirely?

Except to determine effective pressure.

>The electrolysis current and resulting power input just add to the complexity
>of calorimetry.  With that power input gone any heat of reaction presents
>a much cleaner measurement as there is no input power to confuse the issue.
>
>Once it is recognized that gas pressure in the capsule is the controlling
>parameter for the experiment then a direct pressurization with gas is the
>obvious way to do the experiment.
>

And there has been several attempts to do that.  Search Dieter's bibliography
using 'gas loading' as a search phrase to start...  

>Now that we are focussed on the question of gas pressure within the capsule
>I'd like to ask a question of those who best informed about the structure
>of the Arata-Zhang cathode?  What is your estimate of the bursting pressure
>of said capsule and how does that compare with the pressures quoted by
>A-Z?  I am just a little concerned that my suggestion that the measurements
>be repeated with simple direct pressurization might lead someone inexperienced
>with high-pressure systems into doing something foolish.  If you do decide
>to construct such a system it must be hydrostatically tested under safe
>conditions before being put into use!!!

Agreed.  Note that to get Pd to D/M levels of .85 and greater requires 
pressures in the vicinity of 100,000+ psi.

>
>Even the hydrostatic testing of the capsule (which I assume Arata and Zhang
>have done) may not be sufficienty to insure safe operation under the condition
>of their experiment.  One must not forget that the saturation of the capsule
>walls with hydrogen can have a very marked effect on the mechanical properties
>of the metal.
>
>Now do you really believe that Arata and Zhang really have a cleaver cathode
>design?  Is this experiment on a very sound basis?
>

Their experiments represent a unique blend of the electrolytic and pure 
gaseous approach.  The final question is still more or less the same,
is their proposed explanation for their results the correct one?  In my
book, replication is the key to that.

[snip]

Happy Holiday Season!
Kirk Shanahan  {{My opinions...noone else's}}





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 08:25:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28673;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:21:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:21:52 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712231620.IAA06579 norway.it.earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:25:27 -0600
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman earthlink.net>
Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>
References: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"476Zu3.0.u_6.TK-dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14187
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If Zero Point Energy can be proven to actually hold matter together at all levels, then the manipulation of it would lead to energy device type #3....

...

Horace Heffner said in Where to look for free energy at 22/Dec/1997 (Mon) 20:08:25.

Type 3: Lowers the kinetic state of matter to a less excited state, and
transfers that energy to photons and/or kinetic energy of components of the
event.   This is the source of nuclear power.  Also relates to hydrino
formation.  If much "ground state" matter could be converted to a lower
ground state, then a depleatable, though vast, source of of power would be
available.  If some means could be found to the recycle the low energy
state mass via one of the other type devices, a renewable energy source
would then be available.

Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 09:04:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16255;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:58:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:58:59 -0800
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:01:21 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712231701.SAA04862 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Re: Spillover
Resent-Message-ID: <"IE6sL3.0.qz3.It-dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14188
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott here are my comments:

>>However all this being said, Arata is doing another trick. He directly gets
>>atoms, not molecules that diffuse from the cylinder to the surface of the
>>palladium black, without going into the gas phase.
>
>I can see this working for the Pd black particles that touch the inner
>walls of the chamber...the H atoms can move right across at the contact
>point without coming out into the space between the particles.  Are you
>suggesting that ALL the Pd black particles are loaded through the points at
>which they touch each other?  

YES

>OK, let's assume that is the case.  At a given contact point we have
>100,000 atmospheres of effective H pressure causing H atoms to stream into
>the Pd black particle.  That leaves the rest of the surface of that
>particle (surely many hundreds/thousands of times larger than the area of
>the contact point) exposed to nothing except the gas which fills the space
>between the particles.  There's nothing in those spaces to keep the H atoms
>separate so that gas will revert to molecular H.  Surely then the
>equilibrium D/Pd ratio for that pressure (~1000 atm) will be maintained all
>over that portion of the surface.

>If this is indeed the case, then the 100,000 atm pressure will be
>completely dissipated by the time an H atom makes it to the opposite side
>of even the first particle.  All the Pd black except the single layer of
>particles which are touching the inner walls of the Pd chamber will be
>loaded only to the D/Pd concentration for 1000 atm (which I forgot to look
>up but promise to do so tomorrow...honest!)

Let me explain differently: suppose that there is an equilibrium between the
H2 gas pressure and the surface concentration of H atoms on the Pd black,
i.e. H/Pd ratio. This means that the if everything was reversible, then the
surface concentration would be a function of the gas pressure. However,
because of the non reversibility, once you manage to put H atoms at the
surface, then they will remain there even though you have lowered the gas
pressure. So the high surface concentration is coming from direct diffusion
of H atoms from the Pd cylinder to the Pd black, and because of the tendency
to equilibrium, they will migrate from particle to particle without going
into the gas phase. Most likely some will desorb and build some pressure
incide the cylinder, but not enough to reach the equilibrium.


>....or do you think the H remains monatomic in the spaces between the Pd
>black particles?  If so, then please suggest a mechanism by which it could
>do so.

No, it is just surface segregation, the H atoms never go into the gas phase,
they move from particle to particle.

May be this is clearer.

>Thanks again.
>
>
>Scott Little 
>EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
>512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
>little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little
>
>
********************************
Jean-Paul Biberian
E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
tel: (33) 491 72 35 45 voice mail
      (33) 476 82 67 51
      (33) 660 14 04 85 cellular
********************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 09:12:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05847;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:09:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:09:23 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <349FE23A.48D9 earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:09:30 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, sejones@physics1.byu.ed, simonb@queensu.ca,
        ldhansen byu.edu, wolfy2@erols.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com,
        mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp,
        tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, ceti@msn.com,
        ceti_gcollins msn.com, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, z@ccyber.com,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, g-miley@uiuc.edu, shellied@sage.dri.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, design73@aol.com,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov,
        mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, storms@ix.netcom.com,
        76002.1473 aol.com, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov,
        bockris acs.tamu.edu, db@kemi.aau.dk, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        JNaudin509 aol.com, terry4@llnl.gov, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com,
        rwall ixnetcom.com
Subject: two new members of The Order of the Tortoise
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"PtNg8.0.HR1.11_dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14189
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 22, 1997

Dear all,   Two new members of the Order of the Tortoise [experts who
want to believe in cold fusion, ect., but are not yet convinced by the
evidence available so far.]:
[http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/members.html]

13.Dr. Richard W. Wall, BS in Biology and Chemistry, University of
Florida 1963, MD, University of Miami School of Medicine 1972, JD Wake
Forest School of Law 1987. (rwall ix.netcom.com)

14.Dr. Robert Horst, Technical Director, Tandem Computers, a Compaq
Company. BSEE, Bradley University, MSEE, PhD in Computer Science,
University of Illinois. Member of      IEEE, ACM. Listed inventor on 27
US patents in computer architecture, fault tolerant  computing, and high
speed networks. (bhorst loc100.tandem.com) 

As one, Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 09:55:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29584;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:50:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:50:36 -0800
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:50:26 -0800
Message-Id: <199712231750.JAA07256 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: D/Pd TCP chart
Resent-Message-ID: <"QXHhC2.0.AE7.gd_dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14190
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott;  Could you repost this with the units, ie bar, psi, Pa, C, F, ??


>My TCP chart for the D/Pd system says:
>
>pressure	temp		D/Pd
>1000		20		0.845
>1000		70		0.807
>1000		100		0.783
>
>100,000	20		0.940
>100,000	70		0.915
>100,000	100		0.905
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 09:57:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12750;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:51:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:51:30 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:50:27 -0800
Message-Id: <199712231750.JAA07261 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: Waves OVER the pond
Resent-Message-ID: <"hJl6P3.0.873.Ue_dq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14191
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>On Sun, 21 Dec 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote:
>-snip-

>>More damn confused than ever, Frank Stenger
>>
>>
>CHANGING YES, but "waves over only the top, "NO"". We already have seismic
>sensors that can sit on the oceans bottom 2-3,000 feet down and detect a
>millimeters variance (pressures/lift) in a wave above. ORBITAL is assumed
>like a 'pebble in a pond' (surface impact). (see above for incoming Tidal
>Wave effect/damage))....So, You're Right!.


>
>IN MY FACE ALL THE TIME. Suggest (fixing the faucet), Look to the STARS!

You can have several forms of waves.  They propogate their pressure
assymetry along with them through the medium of the waves.  Water in the
case of the tidal waves and some solitons such as at Gibraltar viewed from
shuttle.  And aether in the case of EM.

Waves can be due to an infusion of the medium, a rarefaction or removal of
some of the medium, or an assymetric displacement of the medium.  Each wave
has a different character as far as the entire system is concerned, but when
viewed from afar they can all appear to be the same sometimes.

For example, you can have a long channel such as in a fluid dynamics lab in
college where you can study a hydraulic jump etc.  Suppose the entire
channel is calm, flat and uniform depth.  Then, suddenly you add a bucket of
water at one end.  

This will form an infusion wave front.  It is characterized by a leading
edge of the wave front that is higher than the static elevation of the
water.  As the wave matures, it will develop into the classic sort of sine
shape, of the crest in front and trough behind.

The next wave is where you suddenly remove some of the water at one end of
the channel.  In this case, you are forming a rarefaction wave front.  The
leading edge is a drop in elevation, and then as the water equilibriates
behind, you will form a rising wave following the trough.  So you get
trought first and crest second.

The third form of wave front is where you just have a board underwater, and
you move it forward then back to its original position.  Or, you move it
backward and then back to its original position.  In this case you form the
crest-trough or the trough-crest waveforms respectively.

Now, those are the basic ways in which you can form waves in water, and if
you choose to study how you can form waves in aether the principles are
about the same.  The major difference is that the waves are not simple 2
dimensional wavefronts, they are three dimensional.  (by 2D what I mean is
that the z direction is the only distortion to the water and then it moves
forward in x, so the wave uses 2D's to propogate and is unchanging in width,
due to the wave being in a channel.  Even a wave on the ocean is really this
sort of wave since it is restricted to a plane.  So technically, I call the
channel waves one dimensional to distinguish the degrees of freedom of
direction of propogation.  This way a wave on the ocean has 2 directions
forming a plane for propogation, but only one dimension for distortion
response due to the interaction with gravity, which provides only a 1D
restorative force.

A smoke ring, or the mushroom cloud of a nuclear weapon both are the
geometry I use for photons.  These wave fronts are injection phenomena or
rarefaction phenomena, or actually the photons could also be sort of like
the paddle with no net change.

Nuclear fusion reactions are injection phenomena.

Actually, you can keep a simple rule in mind.  All exothermic reactions are
aether emissive, and thus aether injection phenomena.  So you get a pressure
gradient and net flow direction away from all exothermic regions.  When a
star first ignites, this manifests as jets of matter swept up and
accelerated by the aether emission which blast for a couple of light years
out into space.  Those stars are called T-tauri stars, and following the jet
formation the stars evolve into "Flare stars" which is due to the star
coming to a rolling boil, and to the surface breaking up due to aether
flowing out much like steam blurping out of a mud pot in Yellowstone or
other volcanic areas.

The result of this on a Flare star is that the spectra change in a matter of
hours on those stars as the matter of the star flares outward all of a
sudden as the surface of the star first comes to life, like all of the
blurping activity we observe all the time on our sun which is at a full
rolling boil.

The solar 11 year cycle is simply due to an 11 year oscillation in the
amount of aether being emitted in the core which is then increasing and
decreasing the fluidization of the matter of the star cyclicly.  This is
seen in the GONG data as the density of the entire sun changes on the 11
year cycle, despite the fact that Compton scattering of photonic energy from
the core would take 170,000 years to change the thermal temperature
distribution of the entire suns volume.  ie, thermodynamics cannot explain
the density variations on an 11 year cycle.

Our theories fail because they advocate that mass is not conserved, and that
"empty space" is empty.  When you work with solitonic models, empty space
must be replaced by "ocean of aether (or medium name of your own choosing,
ie spacetime foam)", and that medium must represent the property we call
mass, and thus that medium must be conserved in mass emissive exothermic
reactions.  Ergo, with the solitonic model, you must expect that there will
be a flow of the substance of the universe out of all stars that are burning
fuel.

etc etc

Ross Tessien






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 09:59:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30473;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:55:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:55:32 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971223115417.00a149fc mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:54:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Spillover
In-Reply-To: <199712231701.SAA04862 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"VGnOz2.0.zR7.Ji_dq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14192
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 18:01 12/23/97 +0100, biberian wrote:

>Let me explain differently: suppose that there is an equilibrium between the
>H2 gas pressure and the surface concentration of H atoms on the Pd black,
>i.e. H/Pd ratio. This means that the if everything was reversible, then the
>surface concentration would be a function of the gas pressure. However,
>because of the non reversibility, once you manage to put H atoms at the
>surface, then they will remain there even though you have lowered the gas
>pressure.

Many thanks, Jean-Paul!  In three sentences you have explained it
perfectly.  However, now I am focused on the real cause of this behavior:
non-reversibility.  Why does this condition exist for the Pd black and not
for bulk Pd metal?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 10:30:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18510;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:26:49 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:26:49 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:28:15 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712231828.TAA05399 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Re: Spillover
Resent-Message-ID: <"mS-1J.0.5X4.c90eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14193
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>Many thanks, Jean-Paul!  In three sentences you have explained it
>perfectly.  However, now I am focused on the real cause of this behavior:
>non-reversibility.  Why does this condition exist for the Pd black and not
>for bulk Pd metal?

Scott, this is a good question.

Actually it exists for bulk palladium as well. If you look at the absorption
isotherms of H2 in Pd, you notice that there is an histheresis. When you
deload, you have a higher concentration of hydrogen in the Pd than when you
load it. Why that? I believe this is due to the fact that you have an
activation energy to recombine hydrogen at the surface. 

So now the next question is:  Where does Arata produces heat? We intuitively
believe it is in the Pd black. But may be it is also the cylinder itself?
May be the heat comes from both, but obviously the helium is easily detected
in the inside of the cylinder, since the one produced in the cylinder is
lost in the gas stream.  I don't know if Arata knows. For that a blank
without Pd black inside is necessary. You have to realize that not all
cathodes work. So may be the problem is not in the palladium black, but in
the palladium cylinder, just as everybody else.

I had not thought about it before, but there is an open question here.
********************************
Jean-Paul Biberian
E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
tel: (33) 491 72 35 45 voice mail
      (33) 476 82 67 51
      (33) 660 14 04 85 cellular
********************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 10:41:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06892;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:38:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:38:18 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <c645ce42.34a0027a aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:27:03 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  ZPE and plasma ignition
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"8crUM2.0.ah1.OK0eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14195
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/23/97 6:17:46 AM, you wrote:

<<Could it be that this sudden increased
population of free electrons quickly gain kinetic energy from the ZPE
fluctuations while the much more massive ions would not ?>>

This was Chernetskii's

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 10:42:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06803;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:37:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:37:48 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <d05d0e41.34a0029f aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:27:37 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  ZPE and plasma ignition
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"ShZa33.0.7g1.xJ0eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14194
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/23/97 6:17:46 AM, you wrote:

<<Could it be that this sudden increased
population of free electrons quickly gain kinetic energy from the ZPE
fluctuations while the much more massive ions would not ?>>

This was Chernetskii's explanation.  I'm not certain.

Hal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 11:16:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24702;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0c5b9f1d07d [199.237.131.239]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:12:40 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"eYt4e.0.u16.-o0eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14196
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 10:25 AM 12/23/97, Mark A. Collins wrote:
>If Zero Point Energy can be proven to actually hold matter together at all
>levels, then the manipulation of it would lead to energy device type
>#3....
>
[snip]

Good point. That's the Casimir effect.  However, as the ultimate source of
the pressure is remote, it seems like it would be more of a type 5.  But if
that's the case, maybe some would say the hydrino, being held together by
ZPE, would also be type 5.  This isn't an exact science is it?!  However,
this structure may help think about the problems in a more new or more
general light, or maybe promt development of a better classification.  I do
think only type 1 devices actually create energy/mass, so devices of the
other kinds are conservative in various ways.

It would be interesting to find another distinct new type.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:27:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06175;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:23:32 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:23:32 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971223142100.00a22bd0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:21:00 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Spillover
In-Reply-To: <199712231828.TAA05399 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"-Fj1u1.0.PW1.2t1eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14197
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 19:28 12/23/97 +0100, biberian wrote:

>Actually it exists for bulk palladium as well. If you look at the absorption
>isotherms of H2 in Pd, you notice that there is an histheresis. When you
>deload, you have a higher concentration of hydrogen in the Pd than when you
>load it.

This sounds reasonable but my TCP curves do not show this hysteresis,
Jean-Paul.  Perhaps they are not sufficiently detailed or something.  Can
you give me a reference to the isotherm data you are looking at?



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 12:29:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25384;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:22:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:22:44 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971223142229.00a1d4ec mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:22:29 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: D/Pd TCP chart w/ units
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"YVisq1.0.TC6.Is1eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14198
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

My TCP chart for the D/Pd system says:

pressure (atm)	temp (C)		D/Pd (atom ratio)
1000			20			0.845
1000			70			0.807
1000			100			0.783

100,000		20			0.940
100,000		70			0.915
100,000		100			0.905

Scott




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 13:40:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14301;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:29:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:29:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34A02650.4C3F70A8 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:00:00 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Accurate fine structure constant calculated from PI
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KzZBA3.0.MV3.Br2eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14200
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vo,

This scientific paper appeared on xxx.lanl.gov archive today.
Alpha is calculated with total precision using only PI. It is predicted as: 

	alpha=7,2973530854e-3
	1/alpha= 137.035989392..

Formula is rather simple and logical.


Regards,

hamdi ucar



Physics, abstract
physics/9712044

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:31:06 GMT   (2kb)

Determination of the Fine Structure Constant by $\pi$

Author: Anastass Anastasov (University of Sofia)

In the present report the author presents a simple and systematically defined formula for the fine structure constant based only on the number $\pi$. The difference between the suggested value and the currently known experimental one is about 60 times sma
ller than the uncertainty interval.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 13:40:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04041;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:28:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:28:12 -0800
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:27:57 -0800
Message-Id: <199712232127.NAA25399 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Aether Tectonics, Don't miss > Hubble images
Resent-Message-ID: <"OQc-B2.0.2_.gp2eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14199
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I am posting this over here because we have had some discussion regarding
aether motions and soliton structure of matter.  As well, the Hubble images
are so incredible that many of you ought to look at them even if you don't
want to read the post.  The images are worth the visit, no, you ought not be
ignorant of these behaviors in our universe if you hope to explain ZPE and
other phenomena.  

The radical thing is, the FLIERS as they are called, are composed of "cold"
or low ionization particles.  So, what could accelerate matter that is
essentially neutral in charge and reasonably high in mass without
accelerating lighter ions with much more favourable charge to mass ratios
for interacting with magnetic fields (the standard theories all use magnetic
fields to explain particle accelerations.  But this is hard to use when you
have neutral atoms in the flow!)

Any way, my models demand that aether be flowing out of stars due to mass
conservation (aka aether conservation from soliton emissions during fusion).
That flow, then will induce a spacetime curvature and inertial or
gravitational like acceleration on the matter.  Because the coupling is to
mass, there need be no charge on the atoms or ions.  

Also, don't miss the images at this site;

http://www.astro.washington.edu/balick/WFPC2/


Following is the post I sent in to the new theories group and the astro group.  

Later, Ross Tessien



********************************************************
*********************************************************

Observable ramifications with Hubble images to show the results of 
aether motions. For FLIERS, see: 
http://www.astro.washington.edu/balick/W_F_P_C_2/

For Herbig Haro jets see HH1 and HH2 at:

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap970619.html

For Hubble Picture of the Day see;

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html


This post presents observational evidence of behaviors one would expect 
if matter consisted of solitons rather than as particles.  The ideas are 
foreign to today's physicists, so a fair amount of words are used to 
explain them.  A book is under way and numerous other papers have been 
posted.  Technical information supporting or refuting the ideas is 
welcome.  Questions are welcome, though questions at an entry level may 
be referred to the numerous articles I have already posted on these 
concepts.

Physicists studying quantum gravitation and string theory are invited to 
discuss the GR and QM ramifications of soliton basis for matter.  
Including a potential for formation of a TOE based on these structures. 
 Models for strong, weak, EM, and gravitation from a single foundation 
have been studied from a geometric perspective.  The mathematics are 
needed to formalize the notions and for the structures involved, that is 
beyond my ability.  

Carefully consider the images, and the comments below prior to posing 
serious questions.

Thanks, Ross Tessien

*******************************************************************
Another in the series of Aether Tectonics posts which are too 
speculative for publication in refereed journals.  This series deals 
with expected accelerations of matter due to the motion of aether, where 
matter is modeled as soliton wave forms and where aether forms the stuff 
of "empty space".  

Specifically, this post considers the possibility that the soliton model 
can explain a similarity to Hubble observations of FLIERS and to Herbig 
Haro objects at two different stages of stellar evolution.  The soliton 
model, it turns out, anticipates that there should be a colimated axial 
acceleration imposed on matter immediately following ignition of the 
interior core of a star.  The difference between these two phenomena is 
then more a matter of the gases that exist outside of the star when 
ignition occurs. 

For the FLIERS, the exterior is rarefied with some shells of emitted 
matter here and there.  With the HH objects, the stars are still 
embedded inside of the nebula out of which they formed.  In both cases, 
though, axial jets manifest.  In the HH objects the jets can be traced 
back inward, while in the FLIERS we only see their presence when they 
run into spherical shells of lower density matter surrounding the aging 
star.

In modeling matter as solitons, there apparently exists one notion of 
today's physics which disagrees with the new expectations, and this 
occurs where today we believe that mass is not conserved in mass to 
energy conversions during fusion reactions inside of stars.

According to the current QM and GR models, mass is not a conserved 
property of matter, and empty space is empty.  QM, however, demands that 
empty space be filled with intense energetic quantum fluctuations, QVF, 
which results in lots of study and articles dealing with what is known 
as ZPE or zero point energy.  So on the one hand, empty space is just 
empty, and on the other hand, it is intensely filled with turbulence 
known as spacetime foam or alternately, QVF, when you get down to small 
scales (and depending on if you are in a GR discussion or a QM 
discusion, respectively.

I have been studying the ways in which one will be restricted if one 
works with the notion that what we think of today as "particles", are 
instead "solitons".  Solitons are known to manifest in many forms, 
including spherical balls of EM energy known as Light Bullets.  Light 
Bullets are EM photonic solitons formed using intense laser beams in 
media that have a non linear index of refraction.  I haven't studied 
these in depth to determine if they have actually been formed, or 
whether they are only created in the computer images at that site, 
though at a minimum they should form according to the KdV or Kortweig de 
Vries equations.  See the Light Bullets Home page at;

http://www.sfu.ca/~renns/lbullets.html

The above solitons are not exactly what I have been considering, but 
they will give you an idea if you study their work and images.  Solitons 
can fuse, repulse, attract, etc.  So they can behave in many respects, 
like what we call sub atomic particles.  It is thus interesting to 
consider whether or not they may actually be, what sub atomic particles 
are, ie solitons in an aether of some form.

As much as this sounds simply incorrect according to today's teachings, 
it is not that clear cut.  And more, there are key observations in 
astro-physics where today's theories fail to predict what we actually 
observe.  This is either due to the theories not being well enough 
understood to explain the observations, or, due to the theories being 
incorrect.  Time will tell.

There is, however, an interesting expectation of the solitonic model 
which differs from the particle model for matter.  This is that in the 
solitonic model, the property of mass turns out to be the amount of the 
medium out of which the soliton has been formed, that is associated with 
a given solitonic structure.  ie, the property of mass, I think, must be 
correlated to the density amplification of the medium of the "universe" 
within which the solitons exist.  This could be our atmosphere, the 
ocean, a canal (where the first solitons were discovered), the density 
of the medium or laser energy density, or whatever.  But no matter where 
you form solitons, you have "density gradients" associated with the 
soliton structures.

Thus, if one attempts to model matter as being of solitonic composition 
one is immediately confronted with a major problem.  The medium of the 
solitons must be conserved in all interactions.  This results because if 
the stuff out of which the solitonic density gradients manifest can 
mysteriously appear or disappear for no reason, you have no way of 
working with the wave forms and have a mess.

But if the medium is conserved, then you have a mess of a different kind 
when you consider fusion reactions inside of stars.  Those reactions 
reduce the amount of mass associated with the solitons, and so must 
increase the amount of mass associated with what we today call, "empty 
space".  There must, therefore, be a net flow of aether, the stuff of 
empty space, away from any star that is fusing particles in it's 
interior.

It turns out that very close to the time that the core of a star ignites 
(ie, we cannot pin it down for certain any better than to say that this 
occurs very near the time of ignition), a new born star emits jets of 
gas for no known reason.  These jets blast out of the nebula cocoon and 
form emission regions which are known as Herbig Haro objects after their 
discoverers.  These are emission regions where the cold matter departing 
from the star slams into the surrounding gas cloud and the KE is 
converted into heat and ionization occurs, thus resulting in the 
emissions.

According to the aether soliton model I am studying, the aether emitted 
in the interior of the star during fusion must exit via the path(s) of 
least resistance.  Due to the oblate geometry of the rotating gas cloud 
out of which the star is formed, that path is along the axis of 
rotation.  Thus, the aether emitted in the core must flow outward via 
the axial path.  Some of the matter in the star will be accelerated out 
away from the star along with the aether flow, and that cold matter 
(cold due to such an acceleration being due in essence to an axial 
spacetime distortion).

This is hard to explain, and hard to grasp for you.  I am writing a book 
to explain it better, but let me just say that if you treat spacetime as 
an acoustic structure of standing waves, then the flow of the medium 
leads to a curvature in the locations and geometry of the nodes.  Today 
we think of spacetime as just a mathematical metric and so these 
comments are not sensible when contrasted to todays theories.  However, 
if you consider what will happen to a structure of acoustic standing 
waves in a wind tunnel, you will find that they don't just blow away 
when you turn on the air.  Instead, they just shift down stream a bit 
and are distorted.  So if you consider that the acoustic standing wave 
structure we call spacetime is the result of wave energy arriving from 
all around the distant universe from other solitons we normally call 
particles, then a localized flow out of a star becomes like the wind 
tunnel.

And in particular, the axial assymetry to that flow leads to a 
topological distortion that is like the wind tunnel.  

Any way, more on that in the book.  for now, simply think of it as a 
flow and that will be a crude analysis but ought to work for this 
article.

So, it is well known that T-tauri stars have jets shooting out of them 
for some reason.  I say that it is because there is an emission of 
aether via the path of least resistance, the axis of rotation.  And I 
say that this induces a spacetime curvature directed away from the star 
which exceeds the gravitational thrust inward toward the star (it turns 
out that gravitation cannot be an attraction, but instead must be a 
filtering of the incident wave energy and thus a compressive downward 
thrust from wave energy arriving from deep space.).

The next phase in stellar evolution is called Flare stars.  This is when 
the entire star suddenly brightens over a very short time scale, and the 
spectra are highly variable on short time scales as well.  As best I can 
figure, this must be due to the entire star finally fluidizing to the 
new condition of aether outflow.  I use the analogy of steam blurping 
out of mud pots in Yellowstone to describe the aether boiling out of the 
star.  In any case, at this point we enter the main sequence of the star 
and the aether is continuously boiling out through the surface along the 
axis and via all other latitudes.  

We have at this point stellar winds of the matter being carried away 
from the star.  And the winds along the axis of our sun are at 800 km/s 
while at lower latitudes they are at 400 km/s.  This shows that the 
vestige of rotation persists through the main sequence, and the axis is 
still the easiest route for the aether to exit, and thus the path where 
the matter in the way is accelerated most.

As our sun varies in reactivity in the core, the mass flow rate of 
aether headed out through the surface must also vary.  Apparently there 
is an 11 year cycle to the reactivity in our sun.  this results in 
global changes in the density of the sun on that cycle as is now known 
from the GONG and SOHO and SOI research.  As it takes 170,000 years for 
thermal energy to exit the core and thermalize the entire sun to a new 
temperature, this ability of the sun to alter it's density on the 11 
year cycle is dramatically surprising.  But if you have aether that must 
flow outward, it is not surprising at all.  

At 400 km/s, the journey from the core to the surface of the sun would 
take about 40 hours, and not 170,000 years.  Also, given the aether flow 
model, one would expect that the fluidization of the sun or any star 
would begin near the poles where the resistance to aether flow is the 
lowest.  And indeed, we find on our sun that the sun spot pattern 
emerges first near the high latitudes and later migrates to the equator.

But lets get on to the other images in this post.  

Following the main sequence, it is commonly said that the star then 
begins to cast off its outer layers and grows into a large planetary 
nebula.  I am still getting all of the sequence down on this, so these 
FLIER comments are in the early stages of refinement.  But according to 
the aether model, when the interior begins to run out of hydrogen to 
fuse into helium, the reactivity begins to slow down.  And when this 
happens, then the aether flow rate must also begin to slow down.

So rather than matter being thrown off of the star, it may well be that 
bloating up into a red giant star is due to the matter NOT being blown 
away by the strong aether winds.  ie, what we call stellar winds may be 
due to a spacetime curvature resulting from a flow we are unaware of.

This has ramifications for globular clusters and elliptical galaxies too 
in that they are as well free of gas, amazingly so.  It turns out that 
their geometry is really ideal for expulsing the free particles via the 
exhast flow of aether.  This also has ramifications for the dark matter 
phenomena and for the expansion of the universe via the Hubble flow 
because here I am saying that in essence, brand new empty space is 
flowing out of stars, and by extension, galaxies.  

At some point, the hydrogen burning slows and perhaps stops completely, 
and the star begins to collapse as it cools.  At this point, the hot 
particles on the surface must develop into a sort of fog bank 
surrounding the star to ever decreasing density.  This is the red giant 
phase of stellar evolution, I think, when pitted against the soliton 
version of sub atomic matter.

But an interesting thing happens next.  The interior eventually can 
ignite again and this time burn the helium to carbon and heavier 
elements.  But if the star again begins to convert mass to energy 
according to the present theories, then it must again begin to emit an 
aether wind according to the soliton model.  And, just like the T-tauri 
new born stars, this second ignition must also lead to the formation of 
jets of matter heading out of the stars axis of rotation.  Again, the 
axis is still the path of least resistance due to the oblate geometry of 
the spinning star.  

Even though the rotation had slowed over the course of the life of the 
star (and the angular momentum carried away by the aether flow away from 
the star), after the hydrogen burning ceases, the star begins to 
collapse and shrink under the influence of gravity.  This is just like 
an ice skater pulling in his arms to spin faster, and the stars will do 
the same thing.  So the axis is again an important geometric aspect of 
the aether flow paths out through the matter (solitons) making up the 
bulk of the star.

When those emissions slam into the nebula that was previously emitted, 
we have received the signal that the interior of the star has again 
ignited, and that the fluidization process will begin again.  Much of 
the mass of the star will be blown away during this process as the lower 
latitudes begin to fluidize.

The transition must occur because the aether flow is just like a 
spacetime curvature, ie it interacts inertially with the matter just 
like gravity.  It turns out that the flow will also manifest a rotation, 
and that this is what a magnetic field must be according to the soliton 
model.  So to see magnetic fields in regions of aether flow is expected, 
but to explain this phenomena is another entire article so I will skip 
it here.  

Suffice to say that when considering the buoyancy of the star, we must 
consider not only the mass of the star, but also the amplitude of the 
aether emission if we are using the soliton model.  This is different 
from the particle model where mass is not conserved.  And the 
difference, I think, leads to the expectation that the mass of the sun 
is double our current estimates, but that the matter of the sun and of 
the planets is buoyed by the outflow of the aether we don't consider.  
So we have (with the soliton model), 2x the mass for the sun which leads 
to double the gravitational "pull", BUT, we also have 1x the mass of the 
sun worth of buoyancy thrust from the outflow of aether because of the 
requirement of conservation of aether.

The net effect winds up being identical during times of steady state 
fusion in the core.  It is only when the mass to energy conversion rate 
is **changing** that any anamolies might be noticed.  So our sun is not 
a good candidate for finding anamolies by watching the planets orbits.

However, we can find anamolies if we look closely at some of the 
phenomena I mentioned above.  Especialy coronal mass ejections and 
coronal heating for close in phenomena.  Look for ions that are "heated" 
to temperatures that represent similar velocity dispersions.  ie, 
conditions that are not in equilibrium, but which have the same 
velocities for the particles motions despite very differen charge to 
mass ratios and very different masses for individual particles (ie, O 
and H as observed in '95 by SOHO using SOI I think it was)

If you compare the images of the FLIERS and the Herbig Haro objects, you 
will find that they are remarkably similar.  The major difference is the 
amount of gas in the way to ram into.  In the case of the HH objects, 
there is an entire gas cloud to ram through and so we can make out the 
entire jet right on back into the stellar cocoon.  While in the case of 
the planetary nebulae, the gases are fairly sparce, and so we only make 
out the emission regions where there are earlier accumulations of shells 
of gas to slam into.  But aside from that, the two phenomena are 
virtually the same in appearance.

I am still researching the details of these phenomena to find out more 
details that are similar such as spectra etc.

Notice that in both cases, HH and FLIER, the emission regions are 
primarily axial jet driven.  

If the FLIER phenomena takes place as I expect, and like in Flare stars, 
then what ought to happen is that as the helium burning ignites, we 
ought to first see the emission from the jets axis.  Then, as the star 
fluidizes for the second time to the aether flow, we should see new jets 
punch their way out through the stars surface at lower and lower 
latitudes.  ie, "sun spots" are (I think according to soliton model), 
aether vent tubes.  So we should see "FLIERS" begin to appear at lower 
latitudes if there are any collimated holes that punch outward.

This may well not occur, though, as any such holes may not be collimated 
enough to result in an emission knot.  The most energetic explosions may 
well be near the equator as tubes of aether flow finally break out of 
the surface.  This will be like in the Flare star fluidization where the 
star suddenly gets brighter.  In the case of the emission nebula, we may 
be able to see the result of that phenomena as bright spots.

Such spots off axis ought to be far more transient than the axial 
emission regions due to the rotation of the star.  In fact, it may be 
that we might find a star that has an emission region along the equator 
where that emission spot tends to rotate around the star, and then wink 
in and out of existence.  This is because if the spots are due to matter 
accelerated due to aether bursting out of the surface, then CME like 
events may be responsible.  And since those are transient, and they can 
take on a bit of the rotation of the star if they were accompanied by 
flaring and sun spot activity, then the spot emission regions are 
rotating and so the emission should be as well.  


Later, Ross Tessien








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 14:38:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14283;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:20:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:20:54 -0800
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110715b0c5e9714d30 [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <349FC0A2.5197802F mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
References: <v03110702b0c4d0d05e16 [206.243.174.18]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:20:40 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Brush gravity paper online
Resent-Message-ID: <"J2-k92.0.5V3.5b3eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14201
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>I just finished downloading all the gifs.  Thanks
>for making this effort.

don't thank me, thank Fred Epps, he's the one who discovered
the article and he's the one who scanned it...

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 15:07:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26796;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:01:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:01:27 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:02:52 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712232302.AAA06860 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: biberian <biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>
Subject: Re: Spillover
Resent-Message-ID: <"xGsr12.0.SY6.2B4eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14202
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

A
>This sounds reasonable but my TCP curves do not show this hysteresis,
>Jean-Paul.  Perhaps they are not sufficiently detailed or something.  Can
>you give me a reference to the isotherm data you are looking at?

Scott, here is a good reference:

Y. Fukai, The metal-Hydrogen system, Springer Verlag, Ed. U. Gonser, page 4.

He actually quotes several authors:

H. Frieske, E. Wicke: Ber. Bunsenges. Phys. Chem. 77,48 (1973)
E. Wicke, J. Blaurock: J. Less Common Met. 130,351 (1987)

good luck.
********************************
Jean-Paul Biberian
E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr
tel: (33) 491 72 35 45 voice mail
      (33) 476 82 67 51
      (33) 660 14 04 85 cellular
********************************

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 16:40:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06739;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:25:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:25:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Enyo and Mizuno on pressure
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:23:41 +0000
Message-ID: <19971224002336.AAB19107 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"uHNG73.0.9f1.bP5eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14203
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 Jed wrote:
>Here is a section
>from the Mizuno book about this topic,

>     What they call "overpotential" includes both the electrical discharge
>     reaction and the recombination [that is, D2 formation] reaction. But
>     only recombination ties in directly with pressure. Enyo's experiments
>     revealed that no matter how much you increase the current, recombination
>     overpotential will not exceed ~150 milliamps, in which case pressure is
>     150/30 = 5, in other words, it reaches only about 10^5 atmospheres.
>     [Reference 12]
>
Something definitely got lost in the translation here.  Potential measured
in amps?

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 16:41:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06755;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:25:14 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:25:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Enyo and Mizuno on pressure
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:23:44 +0000
Message-ID: <19971224002336.AAC19107 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"JYXBK2.0.Sf1.fP5eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14204
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

 Jed wrote:
>Here is a section
>from the Mizuno book about this topic,

>     What they call "overpotential" includes both the electrical discharge
>     reaction and the recombination [that is, D2 formation] reaction. But
>     only recombination ties in directly with pressure. Enyo's experiments
>     revealed that no matter how much you increase the current, recombination
>     overpotential will not exceed ~150 milliamps, in which case pressure is
>     150/30 = 5, in other words, it reaches only about 10^5 atmospheres.
>     [Reference 12]
>
Something definitely got lost in the translation here.  Potential measured
in amps?

Would someone please explain what overpotential is to someone not so well
versed in electrochemistry?

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 17:37:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15975;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:32:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:32:37 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Heat and sound
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:31:05 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a16190.101107133 mail.eisa.net.au>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XlUE8.0.Xv3.qO6eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14205
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Question:

If both heat and sound comprise vibrations of atoms, then why does
heat travel through a metal much more slowly than sound (thousands of
times slower)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 18:26:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19647;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:23:16 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:23:16 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712240222.UAA13568 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
In-Reply-To: <34a16190.101107133 mail.eisa.net.au> from Robin van Spaandonk at "Dec 24, 97 01:31:05 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:22:12 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dtH6i.0.to4.G87eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14206
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au> wrote:
> If both heat and sound comprise vibrations of atoms, then why does
> heat travel through a metal much more slowly than sound (thousands of
> times slower)?


They say that in metals, heat energy is carried by electons, so the
vibrations of heat and sound might be in different degrees of freedom.

Certainly the magnitude of energy is different -- there is much more
energy associated with human level heating of metals than of the
sounds we typically pass through them.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 21:02:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14643;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:58:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:58:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0c629c99321 [199.237.131.243]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:00:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Resent-Message-ID: <"fxfrQ3.0.ja3._P9eq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14207
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Formerly in the "Re: Storms on BLP experiment" thread,

At 10:22 PM 12/22/97, I wrote:

[snip]
>The K++ ionization potential is 31.63 eV above the potential for the K+,
>which is 4.34 eV. That gives a net 27.29 eV to be taken from the hydrino
>creation, which is a somewhat incredible three body interaction.  The
>energy said to be released by hydrino creation is said to be 27.21 eV.  It
>seems the reaction is 0.08 eV short.
[snip]

>(3) Given that the excess energy can be made up with kinetic energy, as
>appears to be assumed by the originators, helium would make a much more
>effective catalyst.  The reaction would then be:
>
>    He + H + 2.62 eV -> He+ + Hy + e-


I think the above should be expected to look like:

     He + H  -> He+ + Hy + e- + 2.62 eV

and maybe that is a possibiity for this reaction which could occur at low
temperatures, but that does not seem likely, else it should have long been
discovered.  The idea in the original equation is that the 2.62 eV energy
is absorbed in the form of orbital deformation just prior to the He
ionization. Thus the 2.62 eV of the hydrino formation energy released is
actually spent cooling both the reaction products (decellerating them.)
This is an unusual idea, I believe.  Is it bogus?  Comments?

If the idea of using helium as the catalyst is not bogus, then it should be
a vastly more powerful catalyst than K+ because only a two body reaction is
involved and the species, being uncharged, are more common.


>
>Followed shortly by:
>
>    He+ + e-   ->   He + 24.59 eV
>
>The reactions would have to take place at around (30,400 K)/2 = 15,200 K.
>Given that the ionization potential of both H (13.6 eV) and He (24.59 eV)
>are well above the 2.62 eV energy desired for the collision, a large
>portion of the gas in a reactive zone would be non-ionized.  Also, only a
>two particle reaction is necessary.  If the H used were D or a D-T mixture,
>you might get some significant radiation due to hydrino-hydrino collisions?
>This would best be accomplished at lower temperatures, maybe in an
>adjacent water bath. Hmmm... hydrino bonding?
[snip]

The hydrino bonding comment is a referrence to "hydrogen bonding".  It
would be fortutitous if there were at least a weak non-destructive
attraction between hydrinos (assuming they exist of course).

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 21:22:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21528;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:17:14 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:17:14 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0c64a4b3678 [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:19:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
Resent-Message-ID: <"QDYBz.0.BG5.Ph9eq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14208
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 4:31 PM 12/23/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>Question:
>
>If both heat and sound comprise vibrations of atoms, then why does
>heat travel through a metal much more slowly than sound (thousands of
>times slower)?
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>


I would suggest the possibility that they are the same phenomenon, and the
speed of transmission is determined by both the inirtia and "spring
constants" of the particles and bonds involved.  However, sound is passed
as a unifom in phase wave, which does not permit cancellations to occur
after a short distance, while the broadcasters of heat are in random phase,
and thus their broadcast energy quickly cancels with distance. The heat
wave has to travel by migration of randomly phased energy broadcasters,
which got their energy from the prior broadcasters only close by.

Does that make any sense?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 22:05:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01003;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:55:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:55:39 -0800
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:24:11 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: "Dilbert" on scientists
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712240027_MC2-2D10-6A23 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"bdPYe1.0.RF.PFAeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14209
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

The Dilbert comic strip for December 22 and 23 takes a poke at scientists. It
is funny and right on the mark. I won't reveal the punch line, but the first
strip shows a fellow introducing himself to Dilbert saying: "Hi. I'm Dan the
illogical scientist. I'm much smarter than you because scientists have
invented many things."

I hope we can get permission to reproduce this in I.E.

Overseas Vorticians and people who do not get the strip can see it in a week
or two at:

http://umweb1.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/archive

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 23 23:03:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28968;
	Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A0B3AC.3307 loc1.tandem.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:03:08 -0800
From: Bob Horst <bhorst loc1.tandem.com>
Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com
Organization: Tandem Computers Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Aether Tectonics, Don't miss > Hubble images
References: <199712232127.NAA25399 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yHms71.0.Y47.GCBeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14210
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross --

I have been meaning to ask you a question about your theory.

As I understand it, your theory requires two different states of aether, 
normal aether and aether condensate. How can these states be defined 
without invoking the concept of a force between aether particles?  If 
you define such a force, then you have just pushed the problem down one 
level.  Or do you explain the properties of the aether by inventing a 
new class of smaller particles that forms the aether... leading to an 
infinite regress?  

Somehow the theory seemed more plausible with only one state of aether. 
Of course then you still have the problem of defining the aether itself, 
and the laws governing it.

-- Bob

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 09:43:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01190;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:39:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:39:09 -0800
Message-ID: <34A13B01.1084 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:40:33 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        drom vxcern.cern.ch, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, simonb@post.queensu.ca,
        miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, wolfy2@erols.com
Subject: Chubb: re Blue: Arata and Zhang Cathode Design
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"LTtoZ2.0.VI.xYKeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14211
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil (ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.112.13])
	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18849
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:02:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: by ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil; id AA06159; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:58:44 -0500
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:58:44 -0500
From: Scott Chubb <chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil>
Message-Id: <9712231858.AA06159 ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil>
To: rmforall earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Blue: Arata and Zhang Cathode Design

To: Dick Blue
From: Scott Chubb
Concerning: "pesky neutron"

1.  I have not commented about your comments in quite a while, primarily
because of the time required to do this.

2.  But I do feel compelled to comment about your "astute" critique of
the Arata-Zhang experiment and "the pesky neutron".

3.  I agree that the cell is unique.  It also makes use of Pd Black,
which at pressures that were applied, has a size (~.4 microns) that
we suggested should be optimal.

4.  In point of fact,  Arata and Zhang used LiOH  (as opposed to
LiOD) as the salt within their electrolyte.  Thus, their cell
has D from the D2O and LiOH from the electrolyte.  At the reactive
cathode, as a consequence, it is possible to obtain reactions
of the form H+D->3He, where the H comes from OH and the D
comes from the D2O.

Cheers,

SCOTT CHUBB


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 10:44:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04155;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:40:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:40:59 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:36:56 -0500
From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
Subject: More on pressure from Mizuno
Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com
Message-ID: <199712241339_MC2-2D1E-D089 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"RTi3p3.0.r01.uSLeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14213
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

To: Vortex

A little translation is a dangerous thing. I posted a section from Mizuno's
book describing Enyo's hypothesis about pressure. Apparently Enyo and Maoki
(J. Electroanal. Chem., 108, 277 (1980)) put an upper limit on the pressure
that can be exerted by electrochemistry at 10^5 atm, compared to Pons and
Fleischmann who said it can go up to 10^47. Mizuno sides with Enyo and Maoki,
and furthermore he says that loading can never exceed unity (D/Pd never goes
above 1).

Ah, but a few pages later, he describes a possible escape clause. *Average*
pressure cannot exceed 10^5, but, he explains, microscopic localized areas of
extremely high pressure may be caused by faults in the metal, protrusions from
the surface, or other non-uniformities. There is evidence that the
transmutations discovered in Ohmori's gold cathodes and Mizuno's palladium
cathode are clustered around these imperfections. Mizuno describes a
hypothesis in which pressure in these tiny local spots might reach 10^11 atm
or even 10^23 atm, equivalent to the pressure in a neutron star (p. 212). So,
in a sense, P&F were correct. Ultra-high pressure can be achieved, but not
by the mechanism they claimed. Mizuno says that nobody has devised a method
of measuring the pressure in these tiny local spots yet. I suppose the best
evidence for the hypothesis is CF itself; especially the eruptions of
apparently transmuted material it causes. I refer to the "lily-shaped"
structures shown on the front of the book, and described by Ohmori in various
papers.

Ed Wall asks about the definition of overpotential. Sorry, I'm just the
translator here, I do not know enough to define it. Don't worry - I can do a
credible job without knowing. I'll run the final version past Mizuno and other
electrochemists before publishing. As Ed pointed out I translated "milliamps
of overpotential" which makes no sense (potential being voltage), so I think
it should be more like "overpotential at X milliamps."

Maybe Dieter Britz could explain overpotential. I have various references
about electrochemistry. The ones I understand, like F. C. Hess, "Chemistry
Made Simple" (Doubleday) do not go into that level of detail. For what it's
worth, the reference books I do not understand, like Encyclopedia Britannia,
explain:

     Butler-Volmer Equation.

     The reversible electrode potential can be introduced into equation (1)
     and the potentials taken relative to its value. When so expressed, they
     are termed overpotentials . . .

     As overpotentials, either positive or negative, become larger than about
     5 10{sup -} ^2 volts (V), the second or the first term of equation (3)
     becomes negligible, respectively. Hence, simple exponential
     relationships between current (i.e., rate) and overpotential are
     obtained, or the overpotential can be considered as logarithmically
     dependent on the current density. This theoretical result is in
     agreement with the experimental findings of the German physical chemist
     Julius Tafel (1905), and the usual plots of overpotential versus log
     current density are known as Tafel lines. The slope of a Tafel plot
     reveals the value of the transfer coefficient for the given direction of
     the electrode reaction.

The Mizuno book was written for the general public. He does not explain this
microscopic ultra-high pressure hypothesis in any detail, he only states the
conclusions in a little more detail than I just wrote. For more information
see the endnote references. Mizuno originally wrote the book in a longer,
somewhat more detailed and technical form. His publisher asked him to
simplify it for the general reader. He reluctantly chopped out several
sections. Yesterday he said he might want to e-mail me the original
manuscript and have us publish the longer version in English. More work for
me! We are still discussing that. Evidently the publisher knows what he is
doing. The first run of 5,000 copies is nearly sold out. They will print a
second run in January. He said the book is popular among university
chemistry students. It is helping revive interest in CF, which is good thing
after the NHE fiasco. I find this book more engaging than the Yamaguchi
popularization "Shikenkan no naka no taiyou" (Capturing the Sun in a Test
Tube - my trans.) (Kodansha, 1993).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 10:44:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14637;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:38:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:38:30 -0800
Message-Id: <34A14E6C.89E1AEB6 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:03:24 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
References: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]> <199712231620.IAA06579@norway.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-3he4.0.Za3.bQLeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14212
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

Patent 5590031 is interesting. Was referenced earlier on vortex. It define a way for extracting ZPE, and gives some explanations. Great if the author was collected something with his method. Design seems not bright, his explanations seems reasonable. For 
me ZPE is hypothetical until somebody show me an experimental argument.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 12:59:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19138;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:55:37 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:55:37 -0800 (PST)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:55:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971224135112.11662A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ea5gm1.0.xg4.6RNeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14214
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Merry Christmas to you too - Greg!  :)

-=se=-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 13:35:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08971;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:30:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:30:46 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971224153104.007f02d0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:31:04 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
In-Reply-To: <34A14E6C.89E1AEB6 verisoft.com.tr>
References: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>
 <199712231620.IAA06579 norway.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"4J-cF2.0.5C2.5yNeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14215
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 09:03 PM 12/24/97 +0300, Hamdi	wrote:

>Patent 5590031 is interesting.

Who is the author, Hamdi?  

Scott

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 13:51:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26818;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34A181B1.6AE8A84 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:42:09 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
References: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>
	 <199712231620.IAA06579 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.5.32.19971224153104.007f02d0@mail.eden.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OIzT4.0.yY6.2DOeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14216
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 09:03 PM 12/24/97 +0300, Hamdi       wrote:
> 
> >Patent 5590031 is interesting.
> 
> Who is the author, Hamdi?
> 
> Scott
5590031 : System for converting electromagnetic radiation energy
to electrical energy 

Mead, Jr.; Franklin B., Lancaster, CA 93535
Nachamkin; Jack, Poway, CA 92064

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 15:06:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07861;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:04:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:04:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0c74204feb5 [199.237.131.224]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:05:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"_LZCm1.0.kw1.ZJPeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14217
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:03 PM 12/24/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Patent 5590031 is interesting. Was referenced earlier on vortex. It define
>a way for extracting ZPE, and gives some explanations. Great if the author
>was collected something with his method. Design seems not bright, his
>explanations seems reasonable. For me ZPE is hypothetical until somebody
>show me an experimental argument.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar


This patent brings to mind some thoughts about ZPE:

(1)  To obtain energy from ZPE, photons whizzing by, all we need is to find
a way to absorb them.  Therefore, a sufficiently insulated piece of lead,
for example, being able to absorb energy in the low end of the ZPE
spectrum, should spontaneously continue to rise in temperature.

(2)  The greater part of the mass of the earth, being mostly Ni-Fe, should
absorb much of the ZPE coming from space "below".  Therefore, ZPE should be
more from above than from below at the earth's surface.

(3)  ZPE should heat cores of planets and stars.

(4)  Atoms within the central core of earth, if atoms are held together by
ZPE, should be unstable.  The earth should collapse?


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 15:37:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA30715;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:33:31 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:33:31 -0800
Message-Id: <34A19A35.B41BB96C verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:26:45 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
References: <v01530500b0c74204feb5 [199.237.131.224]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Si7h42.0.lV7.AlPeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14218
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 9:03 PM 12/24/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> >Hi,
[snip]

> This patent brings to mind some thoughts about ZPE:
> 
> (1)  To obtain energy from ZPE, photons whizzing by, all we need is to find
> a way to absorb them.  Therefore, a sufficiently insulated piece of lead,
> for example, being able to absorb energy in the low end of the ZPE
> spectrum, should spontaneously continue to rise in temperature.

Think in other way. Assume ZPE is a thing as temperature but an other kind of, does not affect electron shells and add kinetic energy to molecules but involve some other interaction with the matter with a energy balance a temperature concept. If you viola
te the "second law of the ZPE", you may get free energy. This is a symmetry breaking in a wider sense.  You tried to broke the symmetry in thermodynamics as Maxwell demons, maybe this is more simple on ZPE domain.

Symmetry breaking is great concept, You can win money if you broke the symmetry on stock exchange.;-)

Regards,

hamdi ucar (ucar means flyer)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 18:33:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21939;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:29:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:29:50 -0800
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: More on pressure from Mizuno
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:29:13 +0000
Message-ID: <19971225022911.AAA7571 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"pGBbH2.0.iM5.SKSeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14219
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jed wrote:


>
>Ed Wall asks about the definition of overpotential. Sorry, I'm just the
>translator here, I do not know enough to define it.

I checked the Oxford Science Dictionary and found something I understand,
somewhat.

"A potential that must be applied in an electrolytic cell in addition to the
theoretic potential required to liberate a given substance at an electrode."
I assume that 'theoretic potential' is the Faraday potential, which depends
on the electrolyte and is a function of the chemical bonds in water (yes?).
I see it as 1.48V for light water and 1.54V for heavy water (Notoya, Noya,
Ohnishi: Tritium Generation and Large Excess Heat Evolution... in Fusion
Technology, Vol. 26, 9/94).  The dictionary states that overpotential is a
function of electrode material and current density, as you and Mizuno
elaborate. 

I would certainly like to have a look at the uncut Mizuno book.

Ed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 18:43:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29007;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:39:48 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:39:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v0311071cb0c77772cffc [206.243.174.18]>
In-Reply-To: <34A181B1.6AE8A84 verisoft.com.tr>
References: <v01530502b0c4b094987f [199.237.131.240]>	
 <199712231620.IAA06579 norway.it.earthlink.net>
 <3.0.5.32.19971224153104.007f02d0 mail.eden.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:38:45 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"s0nlf1.0.957.pTSeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14220
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>5590031 : System for converting electromagnetic radiation energy
>to electrical energy
>
>Mead, Jr.; Franklin B., Lancaster, CA 93535
>Nachamkin; Jack, Poway, CA 92064

could this be the same Franklin Mead who is replicating the
T.T.Brown experiments at Philips AFB?

r


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 20:28:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02810;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:24:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 20:24:30 -0800
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971225042416.00667230 atlantic.net>
X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:24:16 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net>
Subject: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Cc: Starcode aol.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"DmKTB.0.qh.y_Teq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14221
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have just finished reading the book "Earth Under Fire" by Paul
LaViolette (he has a PhD in systems science). The book is $25.95,
hardcover, 405 pages (amazon.com has it).

This book accomplishes so much, that it is hard to say anything about it.
In a nutshell, the book is about LaViolette's dissertation subject, being
the effect of periodic galactic core explosions -- the period being
roughly 26,000 years -- which send out shells of cosmic rays (chiefly in
the form of electrons moving at near light-speed) that are hundreds to
thousands of light-years thick (the thickness being the duration of that
particular galactic core explosion).

The effect of this constant blast of cosmic rays -- once the shell hits
our solar system which is 23,000 light-years from the galactic core -- is
to push interstellar dust into the inner solar system (the dust is
normally kept out by the pressure of the solar wind). The result of this
dust is very major, in a number of different ways, including 1) increased
flaring of the sun in the style of T Tauri stars, 2) a downshift toward
the infra-red in terms of the solar radiation reaching the Earth, and 3)
a significant deviation from normal in terms of the total solar energy
reaching the ground.

The last shell passed the Earth roughly 14,000 years ago, marking the end
of the last ice age, and causing all the major physical changes recorded
from that time.

LaViolette is a solid thinker, and he does not fall for the "pole shift"
idea originally advocated by Hapgood, and more recently advocated by Rose
and Rand Flem-Ath in their book "When the Sky Fell". Instead, LaViolette
disposes of the pole-shift approach in two pages at the end of section
12.1, by simply citing physical evidence, which, IMO, refutes it.

But, far from being a mere naysayer, LaViolette has brought a whole new
approach to answering the mysterious questions about what really happened
in the cataclysmic past, and why.

The book starts out slow, initially wasting time on, IMO, less-important
stuff like interpreting astrological symbols and myths (at this point
during my reading, I'm really wondering if I made a mistake buying this
book), but then the pace picks up as the really important stuff, all the
physical evidence, is marshalled in support of these core explosions and
their fingerprints on the Earth, the solar system, and other parts of the
galaxy (for example, section 10.2 regarding supernova remnants is just
one of the many gems in this book).

My own reaction to this book is that I feel that, at last, I have a very
solid explanation for what caused the cataclysmic period that coincided
with the end of the last ice age. So thank you, Dr LaViolette.

As a postcript for his book, LaViolette does go into some detail as to
the stone-wall treatment his research results have received. But this
is not surprising for those who already know that no good deed goes
unpunished.


Kurt Johmann
--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 21:16:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07792;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:12:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:12:28 -0800
Message-ID: <34A1DD96.27A4 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:14:14 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
References: <1.5.4.32.19971225042416.00667230 atlantic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"JOrjr.0.Zv1.wiUeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14222
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 24, 1997

Hi Kurt,   I am very glad to hear about "Earth Under Fire" by Paul
LaViolette-- I've been interested in the more substantial theories about
cosmic events impacting human history...let's see, I've heard about
large meteror and comet impacts, periods of intensified meteor
bombardment, supernovae, and cosmic ray bursters (probably two neutron
stars in orbit together, that finally merge, generating leathal doses of
neutrinos, of all things, for a radius of a 1000 or more light years.).

It's been calculated that only planets on the fringes of the Galaxy,
like ours, are safe enough from disaster producing neighbors for long
enough to allow intelligent life to evolve.  It's also been claimed that
the giant plantets, Jupiter and Saturn, act as gravity police, keeping
the population of dangerous comets and asteroids away from the inner
solar system.  Also, the Moon, itself produced by an impact with a Mars
size body, stabilizes the spin of the slightly oblate Earth, preventing
shifts in the axis of rotation that would produce frequent catastrophy
for life-- it is known that Mars has had frequent such shifts, on the
time scale of every few million years.  Fascinating!

Within a larger framework of understanding, there exist innumerable,
probable parallel paths of simultanous Earth histories, in which we have
had many incarnations, and, to some extent, the evidence we seem to find
"now" may actually come from a manifold of different probably past
histories.  You may have read, "The Nature of Personal Reality," and
other books by Jane Roberts.

Thanks,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 24 22:02:55 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15490;
	Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:59:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:59:08 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A1E7D1.5B02 earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:59:20 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, "mcfee@xdiv"@lanl.gov,
        rbrtbass pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, wireless@amigo.net,
        ceti msn.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, Danyork@iadfw.net,
        design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        droege fnal.gov, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, champion@transmutation.com,
        bhorst loc1.tandem.com, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su,
        shellied sage.dri.edu, tchubb@aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil,
        jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil,
        76002.1473 compuserve.com, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr,
        jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, rwall@ix.netcom.com, collis@netcity.it,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, JNaudin509@aol.com,
        nick7 itl.net, lentin@imaginet.fr,
        ceti_gcollins.msn.com norway.it.earthlink.net, terry4@llnl.gov,
        ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, wolfy2@erols.com, z@ccyber.com,
        zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil
Subject: Bass and Murray: CG Challenge test?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fWRlF1.0.yn3.gOVeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14223
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Subject: CG Challenge to Skeptics of Reality of CF/LENT
  Date:  Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:28:51 -0800
  From:  "Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>
    To:  "Rich Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>
    CC: "Douglas Morrison" <drom vxcern.cern.ch>,
        "Steven E. Jones" <jonesse astro.byu.edu>

[Rich: please forward to Vortex, Dick Blue and other Skeptics:]
 
Date: Christmas Eve, 1997 
Subject: CincyGroup's new Challenge to Skeptics of Reality of CF/LENT
 
    The Cincinnati Group (CG) has asked me to post a sincere Query to
those who doubt the objective physical reality of Cold Fusion (CF) in
particular, or of Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations (LENT) in general. 
    Their work is based upon 4 years of experimentation, not just one
particular process, during which they amassed literally HUNDREDS of
before-&-after assays of scores of different procedures & protocols, in 
which the assays were done by (1) classical chemical assay methods; 
(2) atomic emission spectroscopy [such as with a Scanning Electron 
Microscope]; (3) mass spectroscopy, etc.  They believed in the 
adequacy of the Diagnostics because frequently multiple techniques 
indicated the same results.  For example, in a test on which George 
Miley is not willing to sign as valid (because no process blank was 
run, though he has invited them to return & do a "complete" test), one 
"run" was reported by the Illinois state agency which tests hazardous 
wastes to have achieved "zero" transmutation of Th, while a companion 
run was reported to have achieved "99.9%" transmutation.  Moreover, 
when they altered techniques after the first year or two, they had a 
"dry spell" for a year or two in which ALL of their results were
consistently reported by EVERY methodology to have achieved nothing, but
AFTER adjustments of the Protocol (which rquires a particular voltage
each minute for 30 minutes), the same techniques began to report massive
transmutations. 
To sincere inquirers, they have never "selectively" reported only the
"successes" and ignored the "failures," although so as to not waste time
of others not closely inquiring, they have provided only Protocols with
which they themselves have achieved apparent "success." 
    I am told that the CG assembled a Briefing Book of over 60 pages of
before & after diagnostics on a large number of different processes, of
which they handed out 100 copies to attendees of the 3rd Asti Workshop
in Italy. 
(I have not seen it yet.) 
  One item to which they had not paid much attention caught the eye of
a tenured Professor Chemistry who has an established reputation in the
field of electrochemistry, and caused him to exclaim that if this
particular experiment can be replicated independently, it would not only
convince _him_ beyond doubt of the reality of LENT, it would "slam the
door on any possibility of future doubt!"  The CG is now perfecting the
Protocol of this particular LENT demo to the point where every High
School lab in the world can replicate it with no difficulty, but are not
yet willing to publish the Protocol openly until AFTER the Skeptics have
been challenged to show THEIR hands first! 
        Noticing how the Skeptics have demonstrated a capacity to come
up with ENDLESS lists of further questions which "must be answered"
before they will accept that LENT has been demonstrated, the CG thinks
that the situation should be reversed, and the Skeptics should be
challenged to announce IN ADVANCE what criteria they would regard as
definitive and "intellectually coercive." 
        Rich Murray has demonstrated _ad nauseam_ that a willfully
obtuse observer can keep demanding "_more_ evidence" forever!  As
Bockris has astutely observed, everything in science is a matter of
greater or lesser Probability confidence-level, and a determined skeptic
can always say "just a _little_ more evidence to raise the degree of
probability higher" and keep doing this FOREVER!  (Death of a thousand
cuts.)
        The critics of the LENT-1 Transmutation Reactor reports of
transmutation of Th_232 have proposed an endless list of how the
radioactive Th (and the Th_228 contaminant which it always contains, 
along with the numerous daughter products of the Th_228's decay 
toward lead, some of which are radioactive with very short-half lives 
and so readily detected) can falsely _APPEAR_ to have "disappeard" 
while actually hiding elsewhere, such as plating out on the electrodes 
or falling out with the solid preciptates. 
        Therefore, the CG wants to ask the skeptics, in all seriousness,
to propose any scenario wherein the following sort of reported results
could have been deceptive and not to be taken at face value as 
indicative of LENT. 
        Instead of radioactive Thorium [and all the complications just
mentioned] they propose to use ordinary Sodium (Na).  They are
told by at least one expert electrochemist that there is "absolutely 
NO WAY" that the Na can "hide" or appear to disappear when not
actually gone, under the following Diagnostic Criteria Protocol. 
        1.  Sodium Metasilicate (Na2Si3) is dissolved in
triple-distilled pure water (H2O).
        2. Care is taken that _no_ Na and _no_ SI is added to the
solution at any subsequent point in the experiment.  (No
silicone-containing O-rings, caulking or sealant is used, for example.) 
        3.  A before-electrolysis test of the solution shows a certain 
RATIO of Na and Si peaks in the spectral analysis; for example
[these numbers are mine, and are arbitrary, purely for illustrative 
purposes], suppose that the Na peak is 3 inches high on the graph
and the Si peak is 5 inches high, so the RATIO is 3:5 or the Na 
peak is 60% as high as the Si peak (where peak hight is proportional 
to intensity which is proportional to density of amount present). 
        4. After electrolysis, the SAME diagnostic methodology shows
that the Absolute intensity of the Si is _UNALTERED_ ("5 inches")
whereas the intensity of the NA has now dropped down to noise level
("quarter inch"); also there are several new large peaks that were NOT
there before (such as Magnesium, etc. but these are ignored, because
the skeptics can always claim this is mere "contamination").
        5.  Sincere QUERY !!!  If the RATIO of the Na to the Si has
radically changed, indicating virtually zero Na now present, WHERE/HOW
is the Na hiding? 
        6.  Excluding hypotheses more radical than transmutation (such
as "Psycho-Kinetic Trans-Spatial Dislocation"), what is the meaning
of the Dramatically Altered RATIO (other than as a criterion of LENT)? 
        7.  If LENT is discounted, _WHERE_ did the Na go?
 
            Sincerely,
                            Bob Bass 
 
P.S.  Season's Greetings & Happy New Year to all! 
 
=======================================================
Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins]
    Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, 1971-81]
Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending 
 
                                      Innoventech, Inc.
Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for
          Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g.
                 Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000
                         See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/
 
P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739
Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213;          e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com
============================================================
============================================================

Comment by Rich Murray:  Certainly the key to resolution of the
existence proof for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, which I very much want
to be proven to exist, is a robust experiment which can be replicated by
any number of laboratories, i.e. a kit.  This kit should be as small and
simple as possible.  Inputs have to be exhaustively inventoried in ppm
detail, by competent measurements on all the actual components, in terms
of the presence, say of Si and Na, in the cell described by Bass.  The
process should be be run in a way that ensures all products are
captured-- for instance the CG Thorium cell could be run under oil to
catch any gases leaked during operation or upon openning.  The after-run
testing has to be comprehensive, with all loop holes covered.  In the
case of the Thorium cell, now being evaluated by Dr. Peter Glueck in
Romania, this might mean dissolving the entire cell in acid in order to
eliminate any possible hiding places.  I think it is possible to
develope a test protocol ahead of time that would satisfy all speptics.
It would be good for the kit to include a dummy control cell, that does
everything that the test cell does, but has precisely determined
specific impurities or isotopes added to double-check the whole
process.  For instance, Miley has run his transmutation experiments with
beads with Ti and Au films; these would serve as control runs, if we
have access to any SIMS measurements on them.  No harm in putting the
whole actual test on unedited videotape.  I imagine Scott Little's
EarthTech Incorporated lab in Austin could competently serve as one test
venue. [little eden.com]

Peace on Earth, and Good Will among all souls,
Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 01:14:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04117;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:07:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:07:32 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0c7d2aa1fa0 [12.64.37.245]>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971225042416.00667230 atlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:07:57 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"qd67K.0.A01.J9Yeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14224
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kurt -

Sounds like a good read for a fringe science junkie like myself.

What are the centerpieces to his pole-shift refutation?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 06:26:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10023;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 06:22:31 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 06:22:31 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34A25C01.15D2A69B mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 08:13:37 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
References: <1.5.4.32.19971225042416.00667230 atlantic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HJjfG3.0.XS2.cmceq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14225
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kurt Johmann wrote:
 
 "I have just finished reading the book "Earth Under Fire" by Paul
 LaViolette (he has a PhD in systems science). The book is $25.95,
 hardcover, 405 pages (amazon.com has it).
 
 This book accomplishes so much, that it is hard to say anything
 about it.  In a nutshell, the book is about LaViolette's
 dissertation subject, being the effect of periodic galactic
 core explosions -- the period being roughly 26,000 years --
 which send out shells of cosmic rays ...
 
 The last shell passed the Earth roughly 14,000 years ago,
 marking the end of the last ice age, and causing all the
 major physical changes recorded from that time.
 
 LaViolette is a solid thinker, and he does not fall for the
 "pole shift" idea originally advocated by Hapgood, ...
 Instead, LaViolette disposes of the pole-shift
 approach in two pages at the end of section 12.1,
 by simply citing physical evidence, which, IMO, refutes it.
 
 ... My own reaction to this book is that I feel that, at last,
 I have a very solid explanation for what caused the
 cataclysmic period that coincided with the end of the
 last ice age. So thank you, Dr LaViolette.
 
 Kurt Johmann"
 
 -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) wrote:
 
 "Hi Kurt, Mike, all,
 
 ... this claimed rotating-skin-of-the-Earth process
 ... Hancock ...
 
 However, if you trace the limit-of-ice of the last glaciation
 in North America, you'll find that it follows (roughly)
 the Ohio River on the east and the Missouri River on the
 west (and going north into Canada).  Alaska and northwestern
 Canada was free of ice at the end of the last ice age
 (supposedly about 10,000 years ago)  while Minnesota,
 Michigan, etc.  were covered by a mile or two of ice.
 
 The center of this ice sheet seems to be somewhere
 just to the east of Hudson Bay, quite far from the
 current North Pole."
 
 Hi Kurt,
 
 It would be helpful if you would summarize Dr. LaViolette
 arguments against pole-shift theories.  How does this
 stack up against the Greenland ice core data?
 
 Thanks, Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 09:11:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07149;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:06:24 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:06:24 -0800
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:06:19 -0800 (PST)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: merry x mass
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.971225085738.22833A-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"KaJtd2.0.dl1.FAfeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14226
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Happy holidays everyone!

A quote for the cosmology/quantum ZPE controversy:

  "I personally feel it is presumptuous to believe that man can determine
  the whole temporal structure of the universe, its evolution, development
  and ultimate fate from the merst nanosecond of creation to the last
  10^10 years on the basis of thre or four racts which are not very
  accurately known and are disputed among the experts.  That I find, I
  would say, almost immodest."  Dr. J. Bahcall, Senior Astrophysicist,
  Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton.  From "Who Got Einstein's
  Office", by Ed Regis, p210

and also:

  Knowledge extinguishes the flame of curiousity.  -???


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                                  www.eskimo.com/~billb
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 09:45:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21649;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:42:44 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:42:44 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34A28AF8.30787CB7 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:34:00 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The 5th force....Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
References: <199712131834.KAA16884 Au.oro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"LjMYO.0.BI5.Jifeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14227
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Ross Tessien wrote:
 
 "John Schnurer wrote:
 
         "Sounds like Ralph is talking about the 5th force!"
 
 ... If, inertial and gravitational interactions are different,
 then, the only direction of the difference must be that
 the inertial interaction is greater than the gravitational. This
 is because the gravitational thrust comes from a finite reserve
 of incident wave energy from deep space, whereas the inertial
 interaction is due to the interaction with local spacetime
 oscillations (call them quantum vacuum fluctuations if that is
 easier, or spacetime foam but with an organization to it rather
 than the QM wierdness popular today.
 
 ... It may well be that different materials will interact
 differently and give different values for G.  It is already
 known that G is measured to be different values at different
 laboratories, such that the values do not all lie within one
 anothers error boxes!
 
 ... I predict that the matter with the greater number of atoms
 will gravitate to a greater degree.  ie, if you found two
 materials with the same density for the bulk material,
 but one had a denser packing of atoms than the other, but
 with a lower MW, then that material I think will gravitate
 to a greater degree.
 
 ... The wavelength of spacetime wave energy is on the order of
 the Planck scale, ie E-35 meters.  So even nuclei are huge in
 comparison.  That is why G is so nearly a constant independent
 of material."
 
 Hi Ross,
 
 Thanks for the suggestions.  Do you have some examples of
 G measured in different laboratories?  I have on hand the 1.5 kg
 lead balls that came with the Leybold, two iron (steel)  1.5 kg
 weights, enough copper shot to make two 1.5 kg weights (when put
 into the correct pieces of pipe), and some aluminum cylinders
 which could be tightly wrapped with Al foil.  I could also put
 liquids in plastic containers.  My current efforts have been
 to create a proper base for the balance, which I have just
 completed.  My first thrust will be to determine the effect,
 if any, of heating the large lead balls.  Christmas festivities
 today and my daughter's birthday tomorrow are bringing the
 experimental effort to a temporary halt.  I would appreciate
 specific suggestions on materials, or any other suggestions you
 would care to make.
 
 Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 10:03:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23416;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:00:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:00:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34A29D7B.E61DA27B verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:52:59 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: SMOT difficulty
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"iXkj43.0.kj5.8zfeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14228
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Vo,

I think the current status of Greg on SMOT is controversial and could 
not be explain fraud or psychological hypothesis.

Hypothesis 1)
SMOT was not OU, and all his device are not. It is a fraud.

  - Historical evolution of the SMOT is hardly explainable with this.
    Please refresh your minds on key events on SMOT. Actually SMOT is
    birth as a public free version of the RMOG which is subjected to
    patent application. As his attorney deny him to talk about RMOG.

  - Why he discredit himself by his recent postings, if he going
    disconnected from the world. If he was wise enough to propose a
    fiction as reality to us, he should find an other exit from this
    trouble. Actually, one can think many other method to continue to
    keep his position for long time without entering deadlocks.

  - Why he accept SMOT order, if all the SMOT story was a fiction a way
    to satisfy himself. The paperwork and time spend on SMOT project
    apparent from postings and WEB pages could not justify his expenses
    even one think he never build a SMOT.

  - His highly disturbed latest postings could not be explainable by
    psychologically, and eternal event should be present, either it
    the conservation organization, nature or order of the world.

Hypothesis 2)
SMOT was OU or appeared OU, but hardly reproducible and Greg acknowledge
this fact too late and force him to lie instead of telling this fact.

  - This hypothesis may work in general if one ignore the details.
    SMOT version improvements was not imaginary. I one build SMOT versions,
    he could easily see the improvements, tuning facilities, how major
    the problems are solved on next versions. This is real and observable,
    even one never experienced OU.

  - If one re examine all postings of Greg could not found a time when
    things deviate from reality. Everything appears real and consistent
    except recent letter or letters from NOV 11, while his rate of posting
    is dramatically dropped. And getting attacked by some people who
    subscribed to Vortex. Notice the time coincidence.



Arguments for other hypothesis:
  
  - He was seems highly afraid from the "On Dangerous Ground" event. He never
    speculated on this. Even after informing us it was a son of a friend the
    explanation was cold and formal. We can hardly suspect this was a imaginary.
    And if it really occurred this prove he has something really to worry about.
    Again, we know from the beginning he is not believing or considering 
    conspiracy. But things appears change with this event.

  - If world wide conservation organization was imaginary, why it is chosen so?
    Not really a good nominee for this purpose. Why he is appeared so in controlled
    and lost all his initiatives. This is not good way to lie if he is not 
    intentionally we force to think on conspiracy.

  - If everything he say is real and done, why he don't answer to our letter, as
    he appeared outrageous to say he would not deliver SMOT orders. If he has real
    argument for this, he could explain it more without afraid.

  - Reality:
       
     He appears highly disturbed. Even a fiction writer could hardly
     write such a realistic scenario. We can hardly think everything
     is imaginary. Something is occured. Traces are going back to 2
     months, consistent  his data (contact time with cons. org.) 
   
     He discredit himself to prior stopping communication.

     We hardly expect SMOT delivery.

     How many people build SMOT Mk4 with exact specs and tuning schemes
     he offered ? If none or very few, a conspiracy scheme should also
     discredit SMOT project as it is already on our hands. And this is
     what we observing.

     Please anyone build and obtain clear non-OU from exact specs from
     SMOT Mk4, state it. This is important.

 
     Please tell your opinions.
 
Regards,     

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 11:09:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18785;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:02:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 11:02:34 -0800
Message-ID: <34A29FEE.4401 earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 12:03:26 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ggmurray uriacc.uri.edu, zumm@flash.net, jmyeo@juno.com, cmurray@uh.edu,
        ctraison msn.com, JosephHRowe@compuserve.com, rollo@artvark.com,
        Formanfarm aol.com, lucille@telis.org, leslie@corelight.org,
        sethnet efn.org, key@trail.com, smurray@hsph.harvard.edu,
        sarfatti well.com, katnewroe@aol.com, catala@scils.Rutgers.EDU,
        72507.3443 compuserve.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com,
        lrea5561 uriacc.uri.edu, dnovak@uriacc.uri.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu,
        cincygrp ix.netcom.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp,
        ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, dennis@wazoo.com,
        sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, tchubb@aol.com,
        chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu,
        biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, bockris@acs.tamu.edu,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp
Subject: Merry Christmas!
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5A9B7CEB2103"
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Fr7w1.0.Rb4.9tgeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14229
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------5A9B7CEB2103
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dec. 25, 1997

Dear all,   Willingly, we choose to accept unimaginable, subtle
expansions of awareness, and gratefully to allow spontanous expression
through us to serve the full liberation of creativity in our realms. 
Accordingly, we relax our grip on all previous patterns of perception
and thought, allowing every aspect of experience to be irrevokably
illuminated from within by fresh insights.  

As one,  Rich Murray and Sondra Spies

--------------5A9B7CEB2103
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40])
	by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07384
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 05:29:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from HewlettPackard (dasc3-117.flash.net [208.194.208.117])
	by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA27788
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:29:42 -0600 (CST)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 07:29:42 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712251329.HAA27788 endeavor.flash.net>
X-Sender: zumm centurion.flash.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: rmforall earthlink.net
From: Mike Minick <zumm flash.net>
Subject: Merry Christmas!

Richard and Sondra
                Merry Christmas!
Today,
In all of your giving,
in all of your loving,
remember simply that
God is your Shalom
as we will remember also.
God bless you.
Love,
Mike Jacie Ted Tim Jill and Bill
        I wish your day to be full of wonder  and then contentment.



--------------5A9B7CEB2103--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 14:22:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12821;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:17:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:17:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0c876a56b9a [12.64.37.26]>
In-Reply-To: <34A2302F.1D57 xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:51:17 -1000
To: Vortex-L <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GIFT from farrter christmas
Resent-Message-ID: <"u_IX8.0.983.Wjjeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14230
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robbie wrote:

[snip]

>f               f    M
>   out        f    S    f   N    f               f
>M                       f                       f    N    R   S
>f               f    M                       R
>f        f w       f               f       fw               /\
>              f     ffBffffBff   f               f

[snip]

Something got lost in the translation. I'd like to see what it is you're
doing. Could you do a small drawing and convert it to GIF format and attach
it to a posting? Watch out for that 40K list message limit.
Thanks,

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 14:47:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10440;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:41:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:41:04 -0800
Message-ID: <01BD114B.F9138F70.JoeC transmutation.com>
From: Joe Champion <JoeC transmutation.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Bass & Murray re CG Challenge test
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:44:22 -0000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"F4Csz1.0._Y2.z3keq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14231
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Robert Bass [SMTP:rbrtbass pahrump.com]

Date: Christmas Eve, 1997
Subject: CincyGroup's new Challenge to Skeptics of Reality of CF/LENT

    The Cincinnati Group (CG) has asked me to post a sincere Query to
those who doubt the objective physical reality of Cold Fusion (CF) in
particular, or of Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations (LENT) in general.
    Their work is based upon 4 years of experimentation, not just one
particular process, during which they amassed literally HUNDREDS of
before-&-after assays of scores of different procedures & protocols, in
which the assays were done by (1) classical chemical assay methods;
(2) atomic emission spectroscopy [such as with a Scanning Electron
Microscope]; (3) mass spectroscopy, etc.  They believed in the
adequacy of the Diagnostics because frequently multiple techniques
indicated the same results.

_________________


Bob,

With total respect to the Cincy Group they are searching for acceptance in 
lieu of earning respect,

I know their story well and once I had a desire for people to believe me. 
 For eight years, I fought hard acceptance by demonstrating (or as more 
often failing to demonstrate) my technologies in academic, government, 
industrial and private laboratories.  Did a few of the observers record 
anomalies?  The answer is Yes.  However, I was plagued with two problems 
for numerous years:

	the ability to have absolute (I would of accepted 80%) repeatability; and,

	working in a scale that was large enough to rule out background 
contamination.

Every now and then, I through a little tidbit up on the net, but the 
reality is no one is going to believe what CETI, Cincy and/or I say, for 
they want something tangible to study and understand.

I am fortunate to have Barry working in concert with my efforts.  A year 
later and he is still on the fence.  At first that bothered me for I wanted 
to receive "acceptance."  Within the last months, I came to the realization 
that I do not care what others think, for by working side-by-side with a 
talented researcher, it will take years to decades for science to gain an 
absolute handle on the anomaly of transmutation.

While Barry trudges through the replications of empirically pure 
experiments, I focus my energies on commercialization.  On December 23, 
1997 I received external laboratory validation that I had produced 
~$78,000.00 of precious metals during 30 hours of operation.
(Note: it took 40 days to gain the 30 hours, for numerous changes were made 
to the reactor)

At this point in my life it does not matter whether I made (transmuted) 
these metals, or that I have found a collection system that is new and 
novel to chemistry.  I just accept the reality that the metals are present 
after my process and continue forward to make and/or collect more.

If the Cincy Boys have the wares for transmuting radioactive elements, I 
would suggest that they build larger systems that can hold grams to kilo's  
 of radioactive isotopes.  If they can do that they can leave research 
and enter the commercial arena.

It is my opinion that the only way science will accept this phenomena is 
when one can demonstrate it in a grandiose commercial application.  The 
reality is - when one reaches the commercial scale, what difference does it 
make if science accepts it or not?

Happy Holidays

Joe Champion
http://www.transmutation.com




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 15:16:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19401;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:11:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:11:06 -0800 (PST)
To: harti harti.com
Cc: feenrg-L eskimo.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:59:55 -0800
Subject: SMOT Disappointment
Message-ID: <19971225.150008.10062.1.tv juno.com>
References: <19971224025519.45f28a7a.in pop3.vossnet.de>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.49
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"k9mCB2.0.2l4.8Wkeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14232
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Snorts,

Anybody hear  from the SMOT Santa ?

Tim

( tv juno.com )

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 15:46:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22444;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:41:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:41:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971225234016.00665620 atlantic.net>
X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 18:40:16 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"5QWrA1.0.bU5.Qykeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14233
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net> writes:

>It's been calculated that only planets on the fringes of the Galaxy, like
>ours, are safe enough from disaster producing neighbors for long enough
>to allow intelligent life to evolve.

Based on LaViolette's book, one can certainly say that the further away
from the galactic core, the better. The fact that our solar system is so
far away from the core, 23,000 light years, is probably not due to the
luck of the draw, even though the bulk of the galaxy's stars are much
closer. Instead, physically embodied forms such as ourselves probably
can't survive closer in.


>Within a larger framework of understanding, there exist innumerable,
>probable parallel paths of simultanous Earth histories, in which we have
>had many incarnations, and, to some extent, the evidence we seem to find
>"now" may actually come from a manifold of different probably past
>histories. You may have read, "The Nature of Personal Reality," and other
>books by Jane Roberts.

Actually, I did read several of the Jane Roberts books roughly 20 years
ago. But no, I don't see reality as working in that way: the "many
simultaneous realities" claims which Seth (Roberts' alleged source) was
babbling about back then in those books. Instead, I prefer a view of
reality as the result of computations, in keeping with my professional
training as a computer scientist.


Kurt Johmann
--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 15:47:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22506;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:41:42 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 15:41:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971225234014.006ad2ac atlantic.net>
X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 18:40:14 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"4ew3r3.0.YV5.qykeq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14234
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Kurt -
>
>Sounds like a good read for a fringe science junkie like myself.
>
>What are the centerpieces to his pole-shift refutation?

1) ice-core results from Antarctica, including from the Byrd Station, and
   J-9 on the Ross Ice Shelf, both on that part of Antartica that the
   Flem-Aths claim was the unglaciated part of Antarctica before the last
   pole-shift.

   a) the cores show that temperatures at that location were *colder*
      before the alleged shift, not warmer as the alleged shift requires,
      and

   b) the cores include lower-levels of ice that date far before the
      alleged shift of 9600 BC

2) the temperature record, as recorded in different ice cores, of the
   period from roughly 14,650 BP to 11,600 BP, show that "climate warmed
   to present-day temperatures and then recooled to ice-age temperatures
   at least three times before finally settling into the present
   interglacial mode some 11,600 years ago." [pg 317]

   LaViolette then concludes: "To account for these swings with crustal
   movement, the crust would have had to repeatedly move by 30 degrees
   and then return to its former position."

LaViolette gives references for the ice-core results that he cites.

At this point, having read the Flem-Ath book two months ago, I'd like
to add my own 2-cents on this subject:

1) The Flem-Aths are very selective about the technical data they
   present. For example, they have lots of drawings showing the North
   American ice sheet, but they simply ignore the simultaneous presence
   of the European ice sheet which makes the global ice-cover at that
   time appear much more balanced in distribution around the current
   pole.

2) They never talk about weather conditions during the alleged pre-shift
   time for the alleged Atlantis. Their alleged pre-shift Atlantis would
   at best be where the tip of Argentina is today. Hardly a place people
   would want to live, due to the cold, let alone be the seat of the
   world's most advanced civilization at that time.

3) Like everyone else, the Flem-Aths are unable to suggest a plausible
   mechanism that would cause the alleged pole-shift.

LaViolette also discusses Plato's Atlantis legend, but his interpretation, 
which is very novel, is not literal, unlike the Flem-Aths.


Kurt Johmann
--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 17:00:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26417;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 16:50:52 -0800
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 16:50:52 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: More on pressure from Mizuno
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:50:05 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a3fcdc.1448562 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <199712241339_MC2-2D1E-D089 compuserve.com>
In-Reply-To: <199712241339_MC2-2D1E-D089 compuserve.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"dca5f2.0.hS6.gzleq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14235
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:36:56 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
[snip]
>the surface, or other non-uniformities. There is evidence that the
>transmutations discovered in Ohmori's gold cathodes and Mizuno's palladium
>cathode are clustered around these imperfections. Mizuno describes a

Imperfections also produce asymmetrical lattice cells, which can lead
to phonon BE-condensates. So it could be this rather than
over-pressure which is the cause. The lilies could simply be the
result of the eruption of resultant high pressure helium.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Dec 25 18:29:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01751;
	Thu, 25 Dec 1997 18:23:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 18:23:52 -0800 (PST)
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:22:21 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712260222.UAA01535 dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall)
Subject: Re: Richard W. Wall
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"NBFzc.0.HR.qKneq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14236
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

12/25/97


On November 4 1997 Nick Palmer wrote: 


>RE: Gullible... wannabe... SMOT believers etc
>
>In his insulting diatribes, R.W.W. seems to have missed that when we 
ordered 
>our SMOT kits, Greg was not promising "rollarounds" or obvious OU. He 
was 
>merely offering four SMOT ramps for experiments that demonstrated the 
>strange effects that have also been replicated by others. The late 
Chris 
>Tinsley, who I knew personally, was one. Greg has now put, on his web 
site, 
>that he is sending a SMOT to the family of Chris. He is either 
cynically 
>using the death of a wonderful person to give credibility to his 
"money 
>grabbing schemes" ($A4000 - postage - materials - fabrication costs - 
6 months of work = not much) or he is legit.

>	Greg *has* moved the goalposts a number of times. He is now 
offering 
>more spectacular performance than we paid for. As I have remarked 
before, if 
>a working rollaround SMOT turns up on our doorsteps in a couple of 
weeks, 
>there is a chain of logical inference that can be made about magnets 
as a 
>source/conduit for energy from who-knows-where.

>	As far as Greg's alleged inconsistencies that R.W.W. has pointed 
out 
>go, they are far more easily explained when one realises that most 
people do 
>not write emails in a fashion that would survive legal cross 
examination - 
>that's why legal judgments are so huge - most people write in a 
shorthand 
>manner without the qualification and definitions that would make them 
>watertight.


>	I bet R.W.W. one hundred pounds sterling that Greg will ship and 
>that my SMOT will rollaround in a suitably OU fashion...... provided 
>that R.W.W. will give me odds of 1000 to 1 against this. He is sooooo 
>confident that I am sure he will agree to demonstrate his faith in his 
>powers of analysis.
>	Looking forward to receiving my OU SMOT + £100,000 before 
Christmas!
>
>Nick Palmer, Group co-ordinator, Jersey (UK) Friends of the Earth

========================================================================


Nick,

Please send my one hundred pounds sterling forwith or in the 
alternative please send the the SMOT that Greg sent you that will 
perform rollaround in a suitably OU fashion ..... for my verification, 
of course.  I will subsequently release it to all on the list.  %^)

RWW


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 00:27:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02470;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0c91752b9ea [199.237.131.236]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:25:10 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: More on pressure from Mizuno
Resent-Message-ID: <"O9DeZ.0.Wc.2bseq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14237
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:50 PM 12/25/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:36:56 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>[snip]
>>the surface, or other non-uniformities. There is evidence that the
>>transmutations discovered in Ohmori's gold cathodes and Mizuno's palladium
>>cathode are clustered around these imperfections. Mizuno describes a
>
>Imperfections also produce asymmetrical lattice cells, which can lead
>to phonon BE-condensates. So it could be this rather than
>over-pressure which is the cause. The lilies could simply be the
>result of the eruption of resultant high pressure helium.
>[snip]
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>



An interesting experiment might be to sandwich a cell in photographic
gells, with some kind of registration to the cathode, yet room for the
electrolyte, to see if cosmic ray tracks align with the lilies.  If the
hydrogen has accumulated in condensates, and a cosomic ray stikes a
condensate, then there is plenty of reason to think that fusion can occur.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 01:05:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23103;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:59:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:59:45 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0c9222fb95b [12.64.35.83]>
In-Reply-To: <19971225.150008.10062.1.tv juno.com>
References: <19971224025519.45f28a7a.in pop3.vossnet.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 22:59:16 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SMOT Disappointment
Resent-Message-ID: <"TIz6T3.0.ue5._7teq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14238
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Snorts,
>
>Anybody hear  from the SMOT Santa ?
>
>Tim
>
>( tv juno.com )

Oh...that was supposed to happen _this_ Christmas??? <blush>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 01:17:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06227;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:11:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:11:06 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102801b0c92300ea8c [12.64.66.158]>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971225234014.006ad2ac atlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:11:30 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"tKGEZ.0.DX1.fIteq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14239
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Kurt -

That sounds pretty good, thanks. Also, ancient sites, including some
thought to be very old like the great pyramid, Machu Pichu and perhaps
others, seem to be aligned in a way that indicates the poles haven't moved
any more than the expected precession amount. Aren't some of these things
thought to predate the alleged shift?

I wonder though sometimes about the rather fanatical interest ancient
people seem to have had in the equinoxes and so forth. That the earth would
begin to tilt back towards the sun after reaching the winter solstice
seemed to be a matter of of major concern each year, and worthy of
celebration and great relief when it did do as it was supposed to. But why
would they think it *wouldn't*? Was there memory of a time when things went
crazy and the earth and sky were all out of kilter? By the way, I'm not so
sure a crustal shift needs much of a mechanism outside of the already fluid
interior and various currents in them. There's no inherent stability to a
spherical top. Why did Mars tip over?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 01:47:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07946;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:43:00 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 01:43:00 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b0c91e255456 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:45:11 -0900
To: "Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>,
        "Martha Krebs" <Martha.Krebs mailgw.er.doe.gov>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Bass & Murray re CG Challenge test
Cc: "Joe Maguire" <Joe.Maguire mailgw.er.doe.gov>,
        "Bennett Miller" <Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov>,
        "Douglas Morrison" <drom vxcern.cern.ch>,
        "Steven E. Jones" <jonesse astro.byu.edu>,
        "Dick Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>
Resent-Message-ID: <"2lmIA2.0.4y1.Zmteq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14240
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robert Bass asks in post quoted below: "If LENT is discounted, _WHERE_ did
the Na go?"

I am not a chemist.  However, I have operated and performed calorimetry on
a variety of electrochemical cells, including spark/ark type cells, with a
variety of electrode types, including cells where sodium metasilicate
(Na2SiO3) was a primary ingredient, and zirconium was the primary electrode
material.  I can tell you from experience that (1) a highly insulating
film, which includes other unusual properties, and which probably removes a
small amount of silicon from the electolyte, is created on the electrodes,
(2) a precipitate normally forms at the bottom of the cell, and (3)
electrode corrosion typically occurs in selected spots which are visible
upon microscopic examination.  However, it is difficult to determine the
amount of corrrosion on a macroscopic scale unless you either use foil
electrodes or have a very long run time.  This is partially due to the fact
that deposition of electrolyte material on the electrodes prevents weighing
the electrodes to determine loss of metals.

There are a wide variety of insoluble sodium compunds that can form
depending the electrode metals and contaminates.  It is also worthy of note
that samples should be taken when the electrolyte is hot and then again
when cool yet still in the cell.  This is because various Na salts are
soluble at low temperatures, but not at high temperatures.  Of course,
total cell digestion is the best method.

Spelling out complete details of your Na based protocol on a netwslist or
web page, including suppliers used for components, concentrations,
voltages, currents, Ph values, etc., may further your cause to get
replication.

Lastly, I should once again say that it seems to me that setting up a
continuous batch process would clarify where the Na (or any other reactant,
such a Th) is going. If nothing else, run the cell, then add NaOH to
restore the Na concetration, and run some more, etc.  If the Na is
chemically combining with some material, then this process will exhaust
that material and the process will stop.


At 12:36 PM 12/25/97, Robert Bass wrote:
[snip]
>They are
>told by at least one expert electrochemist that there is "absolutely
>NO WAY" that the Na can "hide" or appear to disappear when not
>actually gone, under the following Diagnostic Criteria Protocol.
>        1.  Sodium Metasilicate (Na2Si3) is dissolved in
>triple-distilled pure water (H2O).
>        2. Care is taken that _no_ Na and _no_ Si is added to the
>solution at any subsequent point in the experiment.  (No
>silicone-containing O-rings, caulking or sealant is used, for example.)
>        3.  A before-electrolysis test of the solution shows a certain
>RATIO of Na and Si peaks in the spectral analysis; for example
>[these numbers are mine, and are arbitrary, purely for illustrative
>purposes], suppose that the Na peak is 3 inches high on the graph
>and the Si peak is 5 inches high, so the RATIO is 3:5 or the Na
>peak is 60% as high as the Si peak (where peak height is proportional
>to intensity which is proportional to density of amount present).
>        4. After electrolysis, the SAME diagnostic methodology shows
>that the Absolute intensity of the Si is _UNALTERED_ ("5 inches")
>whereas the intensity of the NA has now dropped down to noise level
>("quarter inch"); also there are several new large peaks that were NOT
>there before (such as Magnesium, etc. but these are ignored, because
>the skeptics can always claim this is mere "contamination").
>        5.  Sincere QUERY !!!  If the RATIO of the Na to the Si has
>radically changed, indicating virtually zero Na now present, WHERE/HOW
>is the Na hiding?
>        6.  Excluding hypotheses more radical than transmutation (such
>as "Psycho-Kinetic Trans-Spatial Dislocation"), what is the meaning
>of the Dramatically Altered RATIO (other than as a criterion of LENT)?
>        7.  If LENT is discounted, _WHERE_ did the Na go?
>
>            Sincerely,
>                            Bob Bass

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 07:31:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03826;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:27:11 -0800
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:27:11 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Off Topic,  Business opportunity of a Lifetime!
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:24:10 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd1212$50d9bc40$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"BASKB1.0.ix.Epyeq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14241
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The launch of a Spy-like satellite on Dec 25th 1997 that is capable of 3
meter resolution from 300 miles out in space with infrared as well as
visible capability opens enormous business
opportunities.(www.digitalglobe.com)

I will be coming out of retirement to form a company named, Third Planet
Industries. Which will specialize in roofing, and attic insulation.   :-)

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 11:23:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06541;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:20:30 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:19:20 -0800
Message-Id: <199712261919.LAA20693 Au.oro.net>
X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien)
Subject: Re: The 5th force....Re: Cavendish Balance Experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"rd8WN1.0.2c1.yD0fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14242
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> Hi Ross,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions.  Do you have some examples of
> G measured in different laboratories? 

The reports were in Science News, and I think Scientific American, though I
forget the original journals that they various authors used.  The labs were
in Germany, 2 (though maybe one was in Belgium????), and New Zealand.  They
used 3 different kinds of apparatus.  I seem to recall "Lower Hut" as the
name of the university in NZ, or "Upper Hut", or something like that.  A
search on "Big G", "Gravimetric Constant".  The results were found in 95 I
think it was.  Search on that stuff and you ought to find the reports.

 I have on hand the 1.5 kg
> lead balls that came with the Leybold, two iron (steel)  1.5 kg
> weights, enough copper shot to make two 1.5 kg weights (when put
> into the correct pieces of pipe), and some aluminum cylinders
> which could be tightly wrapped with Al foil.  I could also put
> liquids in plastic containers.  My current efforts have been
> to create a proper base for the balance, which I have just
> completed.  My first thrust will be to determine the effect,
> if any, of heating the large lead balls.  Christmas festivities
> today and my daughter's birthday tomorrow are bringing the
> experimental effort to a temporary halt.  I would appreciate
> specific suggestions on materials, or any other suggestions you
> would care to make.

Jack, you should really make the simple calculation of E= mc^2 on the amount
of energy you are going to dump into the system via heating.  You will find
that it is a really puny percentage of the mass of the balls.  Thus, it
would be like you were adding perhaps 0.0001 percent of the weight of the
balls to the system, and trying to find that change in response (I didn't do
the calc., but have in the past and recall that the result is way below our
ability to measure, even though it is anticipated to be there).

IOW, I don't think you stand a snowballs chance in H____ of finding that
distortion even if you had the best devices on the planet.  So for you to
replicate it with home grown variety devices is not likely to result in
anything but expense and a lot of fun if you enjoy the challenge.

I would try to replicate the balance experiment and you will learn a lot
about air motions and currents etc just from that simple effort.

As for something interesting to try to detect, there is one, but it is also
a percentage of a percentage phenomena.  It deals with mountain ranges used
as sheilds of the incident wave energy that is pushing us down, and
responsible for the graviational effect.  It would require laser
interferometers, mountain ranges, and a lot of effort.  The best devices
would likely be simple pendulums and precision atomic clocks, though, so I
don't even feel up to the expense of the challenge yet.  

Anyway, I would recommend that you have fun and just play with the devices
for now, and when you are expert and can reproduce your results at any time,
then look for a greater challenge.  As for things you might try with your
device, consider mapping out the value of G as a function of the time of
day.  ie, try mapping out G during sunrise, sunset, midnight, noon, etc.
There is some evidence of chemical and nuclear activities being affected by
the orientation (despite being inside a building where no light or other
affects are involved)

When you can get exactly the same reading, time after time, and you have
money and time to burn on a more challenging experiment, then give me a call
back!

Have fun and Happy New Year,

Ross Tessien


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 19:58:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15584;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:55:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:55:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712270354.TAA10430 germany.it.earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:59:20 -0600
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman earthlink.net>
Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0c74204feb5 [199.237.131.224]>
References: <v01530500b0c74204feb5 [199.237.131.224]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"DaDEQ3.0.Qp3.xm7fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14243
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner said in Re: Where to look for free energy at 24/Dec/1997 (Wed) 17:05:50.

(4)  Atoms within the central core of earth, if atoms are held together by
ZPE, should be unstable.  The earth should collapse?

No, atoms are mostly space, and even with that kind of mass, plenty of ZPE penetrates the entire planet... however, there is enough blockage of ZPE by the mass of the Earth to create a large pressure differential... i.e. gravity... So gravity is related t
o the % blockage of ZPE...


Regards,

Horace Heffner          




Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 21:44:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24029;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:33 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 05:39:52 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a885b4.76606846 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <199712240222.UAA13568 mirage.skypoint.com>
In-Reply-To: <199712240222.UAA13568 mirage.skypoint.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qRmxC1.0.Nt5.AK9fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14246
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:22:12 -0600 (CST), John Logajan wrote:
[snip]
>They say that in metals, heat energy is carried by electons, so the
>vibrations of heat and sound might be in different degrees of freedom.

This would explain why electrical conductors are also better
conductors of heat than non-metals, however it just aggravates the
difference between the two speeds in non-metals. What I was really
trying to get at was the difference between heat and sound. Therefore
have a go at answering the same question for a non-metal.

>
>Certainly the magnitude of energy is different -- there is much more
>energy associated with human level heating of metals than of the
>sounds we typically pass through them.
[snip]
This is probably very important. And if I may re-word part of Horace's
reply, then more heat energy would appear to stick to individual atoms
than sound energy. I wonder if this is related to the wavelength of
the energy  involved? (Heat having a much higher frequency, and being
closer to the natural resonant frequency of individual atoms in the
lattice). Does anyone know if the speed of sound in solids is reduced
for ultra-high frequency sound (gigahertz)?

More general extension of the above question. When a simple harmonic
oscillator is forced to oscillate at a frequency different than its
natural resonant frequency, is the energy it absorbs from the forcing
wave less than at resonance, and dependant upon the distance from
resonance?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 21:45:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24006;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:29 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 05:39:48 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a67614.72606362 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530502b0c629c99321 [199.237.131.243]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0c629c99321 [199.237.131.243]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"DexRj.0.ys5.3K9fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14245
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:00:36 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>     He + H  -> He+ + Hy + e- + 2.62 eV
>
>and maybe that is a possibiity for this reaction which could occur at low
>temperatures, but that does not seem likely, else it should have long been
>discovered.  The idea in the original equation is that the 2.62 eV energy
>is absorbed in the form of orbital deformation just prior to the He
>ionization. Thus the 2.62 eV of the hydrino formation energy released is
>actually spent cooling both the reaction products (decellerating them.)
>This is an unusual idea, I believe.  Is it bogus?  Comments?

Mills speaks of reactions occurring based upon *resonance*. I.e. the
energy of the Hy transition should closely match that of the energy
"hole" provided by the reactants. So I suspect that while the reaction
you propose may not be impossible, it would be extremely unlikely due
to the large mismatch in energies. This would also tend to explain why
such reactions are not a part of classical chemistry.

>
>If the idea of using helium as the catalyst is not bogus, then it should be
>a vastly more powerful catalyst than K+ because only a two body reaction is
>involved and the species, being uncharged, are more common.

The reaction:

Rb+ + H + .08 eV -> Rb++ + Hy + e- 

is also only a two body reaction, yet according to Mills, this doesn't
run as well as the K+ reaction.
[snip]

>The hydrino bonding comment is a referrence to "hydrogen bonding".  It
>would be fortutitous if there were at least a weak non-destructive
>attraction between hydrinos (assuming they exist of course).
[snip]
Mills does talk about Dihydrinos. These are supposedly shrunken
molecules. However it's not immediately clear whether these are formed
from the combination of two hydrinos, or from the shrinkage of the
hydrogen molecule ("hole" energy 48.6 eV iso 27.2 eV).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Dec 26 21:51:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23991;
	Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:41:28 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 05:39:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a782ac.75830755 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530503b0c64a4b3678 [199.237.131.224]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530503b0c64a4b3678 [199.237.131.224]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"H0gqv2.0.is5.2K9fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14244
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:19:53 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>
>I would suggest the possibility that they are the same phenomenon, and the
>speed of transmission is determined by both the inirtia and "spring
>constants" of the particles and bonds involved.  However, sound is passed
>as a unifom in phase wave, which does not permit cancellations to occur
>after a short distance, while the broadcasters of heat are in random phase,
>and thus their broadcast energy quickly cancels with distance. The heat

So if they are essentially the same phenomenon, why is sound passed as
a "uniform in phase wave", but not heat?

>wave has to travel by migration of randomly phased energy broadcasters,
>which got their energy from the prior broadcasters only close by.
>
>Does that make any sense?
[snip]
Well maybe, but what happens if a metal is heated by an infra-red
laser over a reasonable area? Does this then result in heat waves
travelling with the speed of sound (because the laser light is
coherent, and one might therefore perhaps expect that the induced
vibrations in the metal will also be coherent)? 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 04:36:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13957;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:32:39 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 04:32:39 -0800
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34A4E577.1BB8B9F5 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:24:39 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
References: <1.5.4.32.19971225042416.00667230 atlantic.net>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------45D2B47AF6FF04522757F24"
Resent-Message-ID: <"BpYq72.0._P3.cLFfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14247
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------45D2B47AF6FF04522757F24
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rick Monteverde wrote:
 
 "Kurt -
 
 Sounds like a good read for a fringe science
 junkie like myself.  What are the centerpieces
 to his pole-shift refutation?"
 
 Kurt Johmann writes:
 
 1) ice-core results from Antarctica,
    including from the Byrd Station, and
    J-9 on the Ross Ice Shelf, both on that
    part of Antartica that the Flem-Aths
    claim was the unglaciated part of
    Antarctica before the last pole-shift.
 
    a) the cores show that temperatures at that
       location were *colder* before the
       alleged shift, not warmer as the alleged
       shift requires, and
 
    b) the cores include lower-levels of ice that
       date far before the alleged shift of 9600 BC
 
 2) the temperature record, as recorded in different
    ice cores, of the period from roughly 14,650 BP
    to 11,600 BP, show that "climate warmed to
    present-day temperatures and then recooled to
    ice-age temperatures at least three times before
    finally settling into the present interglacial
    mode some 11,600 years ago." [pg 317]
 
    LaViolette then concludes: "To account for these swings
    with crustal movement, the crust would have had to repeatedly
    move by 30 degrees and then return to its former position."
 
 Hi Kurt,
 
 I didn't realize that Dr. LaViolette is an ice-core
 specialist.  These are persuasive arguments.
 I'm attaching another view of Dr. LaViolette theory.
 
 Jack Smith

--------------45D2B47AF6FF04522757F24
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x"


 "The effect of this constant blast of cosmic rays --
 once the shell hits our solar system which is 23,000
 light-years from the galactic core -- is to push
 interstellar dust into the inner solar system (the dust is
 normally kept out by the pressure of the solar wind)."

   Physically speaking, if I may make so bold, this is a bad
joke. It's a free country, or so they say, which means you can
write just about any kind of book you have a mind too. But the
idea that galactic dust clouds are pushed around by cosmic ray
showers is a real howler. Cosmic rays, even in intense bursts,
will ionize the outer regions of a cloud, creating a sort of
gaseous halo, but it will never push the cloud.

   However, the idea that interstellar clouds might be part of
the cause of ice ages is already one of the standard theories.
The clouds are numerous, and permeate the galaxy. Thoroughly
ordinary galactic dynamics will cause the solar system to
occasionally pass through a cloud. The solar wind will not
hold all of a dense cloud at bay anyhow.

   So the idea of clouds being connected to ice ages is not bad,
but is also not news. But the idea of galactic gamma ray bursts
pushing them around is a bad idea.

Tim Thompson
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8851/


--------------45D2B47AF6FF04522757F24--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 08:29:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01820;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:26:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:26:34 -0800
Message-ID: <34A51E97.5E63 earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:28:23 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com,
        halfox slkc.uswest.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu
Subject: Britz: re CG Challenge to Skeptics of Reality of CF/LENT!
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"s29AQ2.0.MS.vmIfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14249
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz
From: "d.b" <britz chemistry.aau.dk>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: CG Challenge to Skeptics of Reality of CF/LENT!
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:06:22 +0100
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971227155716.9185A-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
References: <67s75f$2o9$1 usenet88.supernews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk
In-Reply-To: <67s75f$2o9$1 usenet88.supernews.com>

On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, rbrtbass wrote:

[...]
>         The Cincinnati Group (CG) has asked me to post a sincere Query to
> those who doubt the objective physical reality of Cold Fusion (CF) in
> particular, or of Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations (LENT) in general.
>         Their work is based upon 4 years of experimentation, not just one
> particular process, during which they amassed literally HUNDREDS of
> before-&-after assays of scores of different procedures & protocols, in
[...]

We skeptics are mainly scientists doing science as a living, and we operate
in a different way. That is, we don't simply take someone's or some company's
word for "hundreds" of results, or demonstrations in front of a group of
journalists or other invited people. We want a clear description of what to
do to replicate the effect, so that we can do it too and get the same result.
The description is usually given in the form of a paper in a journal.

What happens is that in the few cases where descriptions were indeed given,
and people tried to replicate, they tended to get nothing. Then the claimants
say ah, you didn't have the right conditions etc. Not convincing. That doesn't
rule out an effect, of course - it might just be very hard to do. But don't
expect people to believe in it until it can be replicated at will.

It is not so easy to plate out Na from an aqueous solution - you reduce water
before you reduce the Na+ ions - but by all means, give us a clear description
of how to do it, and someone will have a go at it. Don't just tell us about
a bunch of reputable scientists who say they are impressed; that's not good
enough.

-- Dieter Britz.    Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db
                                    NB this ^^ means chemistry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 08:29:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01576;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:24:06 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:24:06 -0800
Message-ID: <34A51E05.41E4 earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:25:57 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Jarmusch: Farnsworth patents
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"txwER2.0.TO.bkIfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14248
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!204.94.112.34!news.aloha.net!news
From: "D. Lloyd Jarmusch" <organix aloha.net>
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Miley's table top fusion thing
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:42:17 -1000
Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI
Message-ID: <34A4DB89.DDB402FD aloha.net>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971222094834.23207B-100000 kemi.aau.dk> <34A20D07.9BFC1D10@NOSPAMprodigy.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kauai-255.u.aloha.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)



Arnie Sossner wrote:

> Farnsworth developed an approach to fusion that -- like
> his approach to television -- was radical, elegant, and astonishing. The results
> he produced, as measured by something called "neutron counts," far exceeded
> anything that any other researchers in the field have ever come close to.
> Unfortunately, his approach was SO radical that funding was hard to come by, and
> Farnsworth took the secrets to his grave when he died in 1971.

Actually his secrets were buried in the U.S. Patent Office.  On June 4, 1968 the
United States Patent Office issued letters patent (#3,386,883) to Philo T.
Farnsworth for "Method and Apparatus for Producing Nuclear-Fusion Reactions"  The
complete patent (16 pages drawings, 19 pages text) can be ordered for $3 from the
patent office.  It is interesting stuff but contains some serious flaws, like at
col. 6, lines 42-52 where Farnsworth suggests that something he calls "ion guns" are
not energetic enough overcome Coulomb repulsion.   Twenty years before Farnsworth's
patent there existed accelerators ("ion guns") energetic enough to do the job.
Nonetheless it is obvious that Farnsworth was brilliant and learned, and his work is
worthwhile reading.

Aloha,

D. Lloyd Jarmusch


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 09:01:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29133;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:57:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:57:10 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0cadeba3fd4 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:58:51 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Resent-Message-ID: <"mMnhg1.0.277.ZDJfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14252
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:39 PM 12/26/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:00:36 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>     He + H  -> He+ + Hy + e- + 2.62 eV
>>
>>and maybe that is a possibiity for this reaction which could occur at low
>>temperatures, but that does not seem likely, else it should have long been
>>discovered.  The idea in the original equation is that the 2.62 eV energy
>>is absorbed in the form of orbital deformation just prior to the He
>>ionization. Thus the 2.62 eV of the hydrino formation energy released is
>>actually spent cooling both the reaction products (decellerating them.)
>>This is an unusual idea, I believe.  Is it bogus?  Comments?
>
>Mills speaks of reactions occurring based upon *resonance*. I.e. the
>energy of the Hy transition should closely match that of the energy
>"hole" provided by the reactants. So I suspect that while the reaction
>you propose may not be impossible, it would be extremely unlikely due
>to the large mismatch in energies. This would also tend to explain why
>such reactions are not a part of classical chemistry.


Quantum interactions are quantized by their resonance requirements, true?
Exact input energies are required to complete a quantized reaction.  If the
K+ reaction is off by 0.08 eV then it might as well be a million miles off,
unless there is some mechanism available to bring the energies into an
exact match, true?


>
>>
>>If the idea of using helium as the catalyst is not bogus, then it should be
>>a vastly more powerful catalyst than K+ because only a two body reaction is
>>involved and the species, being uncharged, are more common.
>
>The reaction:
>
>Rb+ + H + .08 eV -> Rb++ + Hy + e-
>
>is also only a two body reaction, yet according to Mills, this doesn't
>run as well as the K+ reaction.
>[snip]


This is enough to raise doubts about the theory, isn't it?  The collision
duration is the same or longer - giving a resonance based shift time to
occur.  The same source of energy corrections should be available as the
deficit is still about 0.07 eV.  Yet the frequency of a three body
interaction in gas phase must be much less.  Something is wrong here.  Am I
missing something?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 09:01:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29103;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:57:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:57:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cad97903aa [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:58:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
Resent-Message-ID: <"QvRv93.0.d67.UDJfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14251
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 8:39 PM 12/26/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:19:53 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>I would suggest the possibility that they are the same phenomenon, and the
>>speed of transmission is determined by both the inirtia and "spring
>>constants" of the particles and bonds involved.  However, sound is passed
>>as a unifom in phase wave, which does not permit cancellations to occur
>>after a short distance, while the broadcasters of heat are in random phase,
>>and thus their broadcast energy quickly cancels with distance. The heat
>
>So if they are essentially the same phenomenon, why is sound passed as
>a "uniform in phase wave", but not heat?

Because that is the distinguishing feature - a defining quality.  It seems
to be just amatter of somantics.  Sound is a massive multi-level wave of
phonon waves.  It is like a tsunami vs twiddling your fingers in the water.
One quickly dissapates through mutual interference, the other travels
unimpeded and in phase.


>
>>wave has to travel by migration of randomly phased energy broadcasters,
>>which got their energy from the prior broadcasters only close by.
>>
>>Does that make any sense?
>[snip]
>Well maybe, but what happens if a metal is heated by an infra-red
>laser over a reasonable area?

Good question.  However, I think the transmission mechanism would be
different. The resulting wavelength would be very short when the IR
frequency is converted from the speed of light to the speed of sound. The
photons would still be arriving in random phases with respect to the phonon
wavelengths.


>Does this then result in heat waves
>travelling with the speed of sound (because the laser light is
>coherent, and one might therefore perhaps expect that the induced
>vibrations in the metal will also be coherent)?


By the above I think the "vibrations" would be randomized due to the short
frequency.  However, if not, then the result would not be called heat, it
would be called sound.  So there we are, back to somantics.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 09:01:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06443;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:55:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:55:57 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cac86f02f9 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:58:43 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"wfLVO1.0.ba1.SCJfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14250
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 9:59 PM 12/26/97, Mark A. Collins wrote:
>Horace Heffner said in Re: Where to look for free energy at 24/Dec/1997
>(Wed) 17:05:50.
>
>(4)  Atoms within the central core of earth, if atoms are held together by
>ZPE, should be unstable.  The earth should collapse?
>
>No, atoms are mostly space, and even with that kind of mass, plenty of ZPE
>penetrates the entire planet... however, there is enough blockage of ZPE
>by the mass of the Earth to create a large pressure differential... i.e.
>gravity... So gravity is related to the % blockage of ZPE...


It appears I haven't expressed the point clearly, nor the ramifications, so
let me try again.  The energy of ZPE is distributed as the cube of the
frequency.  Most of the energy is in very high frequencies.  One of the
problems with a device like US 5,590,031 is that it is driven by
comparatively low frequenciies of the ZPE spectrum, thus has very limited
energy available.  Granted the main principle of the device is downshifting
the energy, but the frequencies tapped by the device are still very
limiting - assuming the device has even been built and works.

A single electron in an orbital path, except by QM fiat, should radiate a
lot of energy.  A significant portion of the ZPE spectrum would be required
to hold together a few feet thick slab of Ni.   Tapping much energy from
ZPE requires some mechanism for "downshifting" the energy. In other words,
the ZPE energy at a specific frequency is either transparent to Ni-Fe or
not. If not transparent, then the energy is quickly consumed, and could be
expected to be converted to heat. Such photon energy could not get through
the miles of Ni-Fe earth core.   The bulk of ZPE radiation that is
transparent can not be consumed unless it is somehow downshifted in
frequency. There must be some mechanism for doing this downshifting, and
control of that mechanism would have great utility.

If ZPE does hold together atoms, then there is both (1) some mechanism for
the required energy to penetrate through hundreds of miles of metal (i.e.
electron clouds) (2) some means for it to be linked to the orbiting
electrons at each level to compensate for radiation losses and (3) a means
for this to occur without a large portion of the energy converted to theat.
If we can disrupt (1) or (3) plus downshift very high frequencies (beyond
typical x-ray/gamma range), there is a very large energy source available.


One possibility for ZPE meeting the mutually opposed requirements (1)
through (3) is that some kind of ZPE retransmission would have to go on
between adjacent layers of atoms, thus preventing heat absorbtion, and
recycling the ZPE energy that prevents atoms from collapsing. If this is
the case, we are still stuck with no means to get at the more energetic
portion of the spectrum.  However, intervening in the retransmission might
help create a lower energy state of matter, and thus open up avenues of
exploration like the hydrino.

Just some thoughts and questions.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 11:44:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12409;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:38:29 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:38:29 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971227193725.00667d10 atlantic.net>
X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:37:25 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"xb56t2.0.p13.paLfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14253
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

"Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> writes:

> I'm attaching another view of Dr. LaViolette theory.
> 
> "The effect of this constant blast of cosmic rays --
> once the shell hits our solar system which is 23,000
> light-years from the galactic core -- is to push
> interstellar dust into the inner solar system (the dust is
> normally kept out by the pressure of the solar wind)."
>
>   Physically speaking, if I may make so bold, this is a bad
>joke. It's a free country, or so they say, which means you can
>write just about any kind of book you have a mind too. But the
>idea that galactic dust clouds are pushed around by cosmic ray
>showers is a real howler. Cosmic rays, even in intense bursts,
>will ionize the outer regions of a cloud, creating a sort of
>gaseous halo, but it will never push the cloud.

An electron has mass, and a constant "wind" (lasting centuries or
millenia) of electrons coming from a single direction (the galactic core)
and moving at near light speed, will apply pressure and impart directed
motion to a gas in space.

The only way your analysis can have any validity is if it can be shown by
using the applicable equations that the required density of electrons in
the cosmic-ray wave would have to be too high to be credible to achieve
the effects that LaViolette claims.


>   However, the idea that interstellar clouds might be part of
>the cause of ice ages is already one of the standard theories.
>The clouds are numerous, and permeate the galaxy. Thoroughly
>ordinary galactic dynamics will cause the solar system to
>occasionally pass through a cloud. The solar wind will not
>hold all of a dense cloud at bay anyhow.
>
>   So the idea of clouds being connected to ice ages is not bad,
>but is also not news. But the idea of galactic gamma ray bursts
>pushing them around is a bad idea.

He didn't say that the idea of dust alone was new with him, and neither
did I. Also, he didn't use the term "bursts" to describe long-lasting
cosmic-ray waves, and neither did I.


>Tim Thompson
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8851/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 12:01:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28157;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:56:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:56:26 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:53:19 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd1301$14e6b180$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"owyWb1.0.nt6.frLfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14254
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To Vortex

If a particle has energy E = mc^2 it stands to
reason that the "progenitor" photon would have
energy E = CV^2. Where C is a *length only* property of the vacuum,ie., a
string Coulombs/Joule-Meter as specified in "Superstring Theory".

Thus CV^2 = 2*mc^2 or 1/2CV^2 = mc^2. Any energy in excess of the pair rest
energy
will be kinetic energy imparted to the pair.

The photon energy CV^2 can be broken down to:

C = eo* lambda [2(pi)r]; 8.84E-12 * lambda. The potential V will be 1.022E6
volts minimum for
electron-positron pair production from a photon.

Since E = CV^2,  C = E/V^2 = 8.84E-12*lambda
for the progenitor photon. For each of the
particles r = kq^2/E etc. The rest is algebraic
acrobatics.    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 14:36:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12524;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:33:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:33:34 -0800
X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:32:58 +0000
Message-ID: <19971227223251.AAA13042 HOME>
Resent-Message-ID: <"EJ9mn2.0.c33.z8Ofq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14255
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vortex,

>Rich Murray writes:
>
<snip>
>>Within a larger framework of understanding, there exist innumerable,
>>probable parallel paths of simultanous Earth histories, in which we have
>>had many incarnations, and, to some extent, the evidence we seem to find
>>"now" may actually come from a manifold of different probably past
>>histories. You may have read, "The Nature of Personal Reality," and other
>>books by Jane Roberts.
>

Kurt Johmann responds:

>Actually, I did read several of the Jane Roberts books roughly 20 years
>ago. But no, I don't see reality as working in that way: the "many
>simultaneous realities" claims which Seth (Roberts' alleged source) was
>babbling about back then in those books. Instead, I prefer a view of
>reality as the result of computations, in keeping with my professional
>training as a computer scientist.

Ed Wall writes:

I am amazed to see Rich Murray, demander of electrochemical minutia,
pursuer of fact to the Nth degree, flaunting a belief promulgated as
probable fact.  It seems he has caught the tendency of modern science to
accept anything if there exists little possibility of empirical verification
(a.k.a. myth).  Note that I have found Jane Roberts' works interesting, and
conceivably plausable, though more easily explained perhaps as a well fed
writer's imagination.  I do not reject out of hand disembodied consciousness
as an explanation of this phenomenon, but if we are to discuss the
para-'normal', Rich, why don't we start with an empiricist like Dr. Rupert
(not Jane's alias) Sheldrake, or perhaps Swann's and  Puthoff's work in
Psychoenergetics at Stanford Research Institute?  Sheldrake appeals to our
conventional sense of the past and asks, where is this thing that we
collectively experience as having existence, consistency, permanence, and
expectation of being the same for all (though experienced differently by
all), the past?  He postulates that it has tangible existence now and that
it is the experience or memory of genetically similar based conscious beings
that maintains it.  He also cites some very interesting experimental results
and is not shy about pointing out weaknesses in the methodology.  

I found his work to be very interesting and consistent with my experience of
life.  While scientifically, it is admittedly somewhat far-flung, it has the
skeleton of verifiability/falsifiability, if not a fleshed-out body of fact.
It is more appropriate to other forums than Vortex.

Thanks to Kurt for his review of  Paul LaViolette's new book.  It does seem
like another very interesting something I could get to know a little about
and wish I understood better.  Life is full of those.  Sometimes they
strangely overlap.

Ed Wall

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 14:48:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26583;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:47:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <34A42DE7.B54E1FFD verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:21:27 +0300
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
References: <v01530500b0cac86f02f9 [199.237.131.249]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"SMNdG2.0.HV6.oLOfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14256
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> 
[snip]

> A single electron in an orbital path, except by QM fiat, should radiate a
> lot of energy.  A significant portion of the ZPE spectrum would be required
> to hold together a few feet thick slab of Ni.   Tapping much energy from
> ZPE requires some mechanism for "downshifting" the energy. In other words,
> the ZPE energy at a specific frequency is either transparent to Ni-Fe or
> not. If not transparent, then the energy is quickly consumed, and could be
> expected to be converted to heat. Such photon energy could not get through
> the miles of Ni-Fe earth core.   The bulk of ZPE radiation that is
> transparent can not be consumed unless it is somehow downshifted in
> frequency. There must be some mechanism for doing this downshifting, and
> control of that mechanism would have great utility.
> 

Combining ideas! Some definition of ZPE suggests it is like the temperature concept.

Extending this idea could satisfy hypothesis on both local and remote interaction of ZPE. 

a) It remove the excess dark matter density problem (other wise ZPE would curve the space-time significantly and will cause disagreement with observations.)

b) If it a kind of temperature, it can be sensed as (a kind) radiation filing the space (vacuum) and consequently having cosmic attributes (space bound) and also be sensed it's matter bound properties as direct matter to matter interaction similar to temp
erature concept.

c) If temperature model is applied to ZPE, the UV catastrophe problem (higher energies on higher wavelength cause infinite energy densities) is also removed by applying quantum method.

So, ZPE could be defined as high order kinetic properties of matter maybe an extend spectrum of temperature on atomic and planck energy ranges, radiated as a kind of electromagnetic waves and frequency, but different from our observable EM spectrum, matte
r is nearly transparent to this radiation (stated by Horace and others), so astronomic object does not loss much of ZPE radiation to space due this transparency and maybe having balance with the ZPE radiation which fill the universe.

As I said on my previous posting, Only is needed to violate the second law of "ZPE-dynamics" to get the free energy.

Horace, do you think your thoughts on ZPE could be mapped on this concept without problem?


> If ZPE does hold together atoms, then there is both (1) some mechanism for
> the required energy to penetrate through hundreds of miles of metal (i.e.
> electron clouds) (2) some means for it to be linked to the orbiting
> electrons at each level to compensate for radiation losses and (3) a means
> for this to occur without a large portion of the energy converted to theat.
> If we can disrupt (1) or (3) plus downshift very high frequencies (beyond
> typical x-ray/gamma range), there is a very large energy source available.
> 
> One possibility for ZPE meeting the mutually opposed requirements (1)
> through (3) is that some kind of ZPE retransmission would have to go on
> between adjacent layers of atoms, thus preventing heat absorbtion, and
> recycling the ZPE energy that prevents atoms from collapsing. If this is
> the case, we are still stuck with no means to get at the more energetic
> portion of the spectrum.  However, intervening in the retransmission might
> help create a lower energy state of matter, and thus open up avenues of
> exploration like the hydrino.
> 
> Just some thoughts and questions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 16:48:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28579;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:44:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:44:32 -0800
Message-ID: <34A5934D.54FA earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:46:21 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com
Subject: Re: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
References: <19971227223251.AAA13042 HOME>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"uh2f3.0.T-6.l3Qfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14257
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dec. 27, 1997

Ed Wall,   Yes, I too appreciate the humor of playing minutae-minded
skeptic, while at deeper levels not even experiencing what is commonly
termed, "objective reality."  It's like getting focused into the exact
rules that define a game of chess; it's the mutual adherence to a
binding set of fixed rules that allows the co-creation of surprising,
demanding, and entertaining games.

I've confessed before that I often have had precognitive dreams about
ordinary events of the next two days, since 1982, and as a faithful
reader of the Skeptical Inquirer, I am aware that this is meaningless
anecdotal evidence, in terms of convincing any other observer.  However,
I myself am convinced by my own direct experience, not only that the
future does directly play a causal role in the present, but that, based
on other experiences of mine, time is multidimensional, so that many
probable time streams interact with our present.  Rupert Sheldrake's
theory is a simplified version of this rather open paradigm, and has
generated testable predictions that I hear have been tested and
confirmed.  See his book: "Seven Experiments That Could Change the
World", 
http://www.transaction.net/science/seven/eyes.html       . 

This is relevant to Vortex-L, because until science can operate
according to the actual multidimensionalily of reality, it will be
crippled and constricted.  Breakthroughs in physical energy can not but
be related to breakthroughs in consciousness and comprehension, for all
is indeed one.        Infinity.

As one,  Rich Murray

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 19:40:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21736;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:32:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 19:32:38 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A5E3AB.670A keelynet.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:29:15 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Schappeller Glowing Magnetism
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8ioYJ.0.TJ5.JXSfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14258
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

It was just brought to my attention that a file called Searl3.htm somehow 
disappeared from my server.  I have recommended this file to several 
people with no one ever complaining it was not found...strange, elves I 
guess.
              http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/searl3.htm

Anyway, a fellow from Russia has been emailing his ideas about plasma and 
the closest thing I know of is Schappellers claims of a glowing magnetism 
which he produced using a special electret sphere.  He also claimed to 
have developed flying machines he calls 'ether ships' which had 
properties much like those claimd by Searl and Hamel.

A researcher from Holland recently finished his book on John Keely.  It 
will be published by Luminet Press in February 1998 in America.  During 
his combing of libraries and research material in Europe, he came upon 
all kinds of original documents and photos pertaining to the research of 
Karl Schappeller.  A book is being written which should be quite an 
eye-opener since most of the material has never been published.

Much like Gerry Vassilatos' interesting book 'Lost Science' from 
Borderlands, this book should provide much more useful detail than has 
ever been seen about Schappeller. 
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 21:47:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA30759;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:45:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:45:26 -0800
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0cb63dc9ac1 [12.64.66.167]>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971227193725.00667d10 atlantic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:12:25 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"TsOEC3.0.WW7.qTUfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14259
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Kurt wrote:

   >  the required density of electrons in the
   >  cosmic-ray wave

Um, what exactly are we talking about here? A cosmic ray seen as a wavelike
entity? Or a wave as in a large group or flux of such particles? Can
electrons at very high energies be considered cosmic rays? I thought CRs
were atomic nuclei. Thoroughly confused now.

Definitions needed...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Dec 27 23:54:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11070;
	Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:51:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:51:51 -0800
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:46:49 -0500
From: Debbie <Debbie_Hagar compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Sender: Debbie <Debbie_Hagar compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <199712280247_MC2-2D4E-AB60 compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA11053
Resent-Message-ID: <"Fwzhd.0.ui2.LKWfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14260
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rick,

>>I thought CRs were atomic nuclei. Thoroughly confused now.<<

I'm not sure just what they are, but a very unreliable source told me years
ago that wheat grass will stop 'em.  Go figure.


Debbie

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 00:55:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12289;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cbb83fc66e [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 23:53:19 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Molecular hydrino catalysis
Resent-Message-ID: <"S8zEz3.0.v_2.3CXfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14261
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Assuming hydrinos (Hy) are real, and that they require or can use adjacent
multiple atom orbitals to dump 27.21 eV energy upon the formation of the
hy, i.e. multibody collisions, it is then logical to consider not only
multiple simultaneous atomic interactions, but also molecular interactions.
The reason for this is that the molecules, by  being already joined, bring
their constituant atoms to the collision 100 percent of the time.  There is
a very wide variety of possibilities for such reactions.  It is preferable,
but not necessary, to look for molecule or atom pairs which, upon contact,
do not tend to cause a chemical reaction.

A logical first place to look at is the H2 atom. Its ionization energy is
15.42589 eV.  If we want to dump 27.21 eV into an ionizing reaction, we
should therefore look for atoms or molecules that absorb 11.784 eV.  BrF
fills that bill nicely with an ionization potential of 11.77 +- 0.01 eV.
However, we could expect a chemical reaction between H2 and BrF.  It is
also noteworthy that Br has an ionization potential of 11.81 eV, or only
about 0.03 eV off the mark, which is still superior to the K + K++ + H
reaction which is 0.07 eV off the mark.

Further, we should consider HBr, which has an ionization potential 11.66 +-
0.03 eV, which could also put it in the running as a catalyst, comparing
favorably with the K reaction at 0.11 +- 0.03 eV off the mark.  It may be
possible a mixture of H2 and HBr would work, or D2 and HBr or DBr.

Some suggested reactions are:

    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV

which are all clearly followed by reactions that reclaim the 27 eV per
reaction.  The HBr reaction is short 0.125 eV, which is the equivalent of a
1450 K collision.  It seems reasonable to attempt to provide an environment
with a mixture of the above species.

One large problem in checking out the efficiency of reactions, and the
theory in general, is detecting the Hydrino. It still seems the hydrino
should be detectable by NMR spectroscopy, due the strong dipole moment of
the tight Hy orbital, which should provide a Hy resonance peak with a
higher frequency than the H or H2O proton peaks.  The Hy NMR peak might be
highly subdued in amplitude due to the sheilding provided by the tight
electron orbital in the hydrino.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 01:02:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18602;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:01:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:01:22 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cbc4579df7 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:04:13 -0900
To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>,
        "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Resent-Message-ID: <"0f9E02.0.VY4.XLXfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14262
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:53 PM 12/27/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>To Vortex
>
>If a particle has energy E = mc^2 it stands to
>reason that the "progenitor" photon would have
>energy E = CV^2. Where C is a *length only* property of the vacuum,ie., a
>string Coulombs/Joule-Meter as specified in "Superstring Theory".
>
>Thus CV^2 = 2*mc^2 or 1/2CV^2 = mc^2. Any energy in excess of the pair rest
>energy
>will be kinetic energy imparted to the pair.
>
>The photon energy CV^2 can be broken down to:
>
>C = eo* lambda [2(pi)r]; 8.84E-12 * lambda. The potential V will be 1.022E6
>volts minimum for
>electron-positron pair production from a photon.


I don't see where the above follows. The potential 1.022E6 V only applies
to two particles accelerated in a gap of that potential from a standing
start.  I just can't see how that model applies here (maybe it does, I just
can't see it.)  I am sure you know volts are a potential (m^2 kg s^-3 A^-1)
and not eV's which are an energy (1.6x10^-19 m^2 kg s^-2).


>
>Since E = CV^2,  C = E/V^2 = 8.84E-12*lambda
>for the progenitor photon. For each of the
>particles r = kq^2/E etc. The rest is algebraic
>acrobatics.    :-)
>
>Regards,     Frederick

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 01:35:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20250;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:24:08 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:24:08 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b0cbc927bf4d [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 00:27:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"3goNm3.0.Ky4.tgXfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14263
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 1:21 AM 12/27/97, Hamdi Ucar wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>>
>[snip]
>
>> A single electron in an orbital path, except by QM fiat, should radiate a
>> lot of energy.  A significant portion of the ZPE spectrum would be required
>> to hold together a few feet thick slab of Ni.   Tapping much energy from
>> ZPE requires some mechanism for "downshifting" the energy. In other words,
>> the ZPE energy at a specific frequency is either transparent to Ni-Fe or
>> not. If not transparent, then the energy is quickly consumed, and could be
>> expected to be converted to heat. Such photon energy could not get through
>> the miles of Ni-Fe earth core.   The bulk of ZPE radiation that is
>> transparent can not be consumed unless it is somehow downshifted in
>> frequency. There must be some mechanism for doing this downshifting, and
>> control of that mechanism would have great utility.
>>
>
>Combining ideas! Some definition of ZPE suggests it is like the
>temperature concept.


Yes.  It is the temperature discussion that prompted some of this thinking.


>
>Extending this idea could satisfy hypothesis on both local and remote
>interaction of ZPE.
>
>a) It remove the excess dark matter density problem (other wise ZPE would
>curve the space-time significantly and will cause disagreement with
>observations.)
>
>b) If it a kind of temperature, it can be sensed as (a kind) radiation
>filing the space (vacuum) and consequently having cosmic attributes (space
>bound) and also be sensed it's matter bound properties as direct matter to
>matter interaction similar to temperature concept.
>
>c) If temperature model is applied to ZPE, the UV catastrophe problem
>(higher energies on higher wavelength cause infinite energy densities) is
>also removed by applying quantum method.
>
>So, ZPE could be defined as high order kinetic properties of matter maybe
>an extend spectrum of temperature on atomic and planck energy ranges,
>radiated as a kind of electromagnetic waves and frequency, but different
>from our observable EM spectrum, matter is nearly transparent to this
>radiation (stated by Horace and others), so astronomic object does not
>loss much of ZPE radiation to space due this transparency and maybe having
>balance with the ZPE radiation which fill the universe.
>
>As I said on my previous posting, Only is needed to violate the second law
>of "ZPE-dynamics" to get the free energy.
>
>Horace, do you think your thoughts on ZPE could be mapped on this concept
>without problem?
[snip]

Well, my thoughts on ZPE here are really just questions.  I am curious how
all this fits together.  I think it is especially interesting the prior
discussions about ZPE(lattice) and ZPE(vacuum), as I wonder if there is any
difference and wonder about the impact on the overall picture of
"instantaneous action at a distance" type quantum linkages.

There is also the thought that ZPE energy may not be so nicely organized by
mode and with the nice cubic power distribution.  Maybe there are tsunami
waves in the ZPE sea, and smaller ones.  An ocean has all kinds of waves,
and maybe that is where the energy tapping possibilities lie in the ZPE
sea.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 01:38:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20605;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:33:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:33:36 -0800
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971228092210.006a7a08 atlantic.net>
X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 04:22:10 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Kurt Johmann <johmann atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Atlantis, and "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Resent-Message-ID: <"YhVdu3.0.n15.kpXfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14264
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>Kurt wrote:
>
>   >  the required density of electrons in the
>   >  cosmic-ray wave
>
>Um, what exactly are we talking about here? A cosmic ray seen as a wavelike
>entity? Or a wave as in a large group or flux of such particles? Can
>electrons at very high energies be considered cosmic rays? I thought CRs
>were atomic nuclei. Thoroughly confused now.
>
>Definitions needed...

wave as in a large group or flux of such particles

"Can electrons at very high energies be considered cosmic rays?"

Apparently, if they are moving in space as opposed to moving in an 
accelerator in some lab.

"I thought CRs were atomic nuclei."

Csomic rays are basically protons and electrons (broken-down hydrogen atoms,
I would guess). The part of the cosmic ray wave from the galactic core 
explosion that reaches us, according to LaViolette, is just the electron
part. He only talks about electrons forming the wave that reaches us, moving 
at near light speed.


Kurt Johmann
--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 01:41:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15121;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:39:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 01:39:47 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:23:13 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a5a7b3.150857632 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530502b0cadeba3fd4 [199.237.131.249]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0cadeba3fd4 [199.237.131.249]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"qqDZQ2.0.Bi3.XvXfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14265
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 07:58:51 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>Quantum interactions are quantized by their resonance requirements, true?
>Exact input energies are required to complete a quantized reaction.  If the
>K+ reaction is off by 0.08 eV then it might as well be a million miles off,
>unless there is some mechanism available to bring the energies into an
>exact match, true?

I don't think "exact matches" ever happen under any circumstances in
nature. What I think we have is a very "sharp" resonance peak. The
further one is removed from the peak, the less the chance of an energy
transfer. However once within the peak (say at half maximum), then the
transfer chances are greatly improved (energy "borrowed" from the ZPE
for a short time?).
This would imply that the Hy emission peak is quite sharp.
[snip]
>>The reaction:
>>
>>Rb+ + H + .08 eV -> Rb++ + Hy + e-
>>
>>is also only a two body reaction, yet according to Mills, this doesn't
>>run as well as the K+ reaction.
>>[snip]
>
>
>This is enough to raise doubts about the theory, isn't it?  The collision
>duration is the same or longer - giving a resonance based shift time to
>occur.  The same source of energy corrections should be available as the
>deficit is still about 0.07 eV.  Yet the frequency of a three body
>interaction in gas phase must be much less.  Something is wrong here.  Am I
>missing something?

I could certainly be tempted to agree with you on this. The only
reason I can come up with why it might be invalid, is what happens to
the electron? I don't mean "eventually", but rather immediately during
the course of the reaction. I could imagine that a reaction might not
proceed as easily, if the electron doesn't have another atom (ion) to
attach itself to.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 02:28:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17603;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:27:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 02:27:05 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 03:23:00 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd137a$92c40660$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"0TKlR.0.zI4.tbYfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14266
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: Frederick J. Sparber <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>; vortex-l
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?


>At 12:53 PM 12/27/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>To Vortex
>>
>>If a particle has energy E = mc^2 it stands to
>>reason that the "progenitor" photon would have
>>energy E = CV^2. Where C is a *length only* property of the vacuum,ie., a
>>string Coulombs/Joule-Meter as specified in "Superstring Theory".
>>
>>Thus CV^2 = 2*mc^2 or 1/2CV^2 = mc^2. Any energy in excess of the pair
rest
>>energy
>>will be kinetic energy imparted to the pair.
>>
>>The photon energy CV^2 can be broken down to:
>>
>>C = eo* lambda [2(pi)r]; 8.84E-12 * lambda. The potential V will be
1.022E6
>>volts minimum for
>>electron-positron pair production from a photon.
>
>
>I don't see where the above follows. The potential 1.022E6 V only applies
>to two particles accelerated in a gap of that potential from a standing
>start.  I just can't see how that model applies here (maybe it does, I just
>can't see it.)  I am sure you know volts are a potential (m^2 kg s^-3 A^-1)
>and not eV's which are an energy (1.6x10^-19 m^2 kg s^-2).

I'm sure that you know it too, Horace.   :-)

VOLTS IS VOLTS (a POTENTIAL). Ev is a charge taken through A POTENTIAL V
ie., ENERGY OR WORK. I said the POTENTIAL of the electrostatic
field of the progenitor photon is 1.022E6 VOLTS. There is no net charge on
the photon, but the Electric field is Volts/lambda.

When a pair is formed from the photon the potential is split in half, and
since Q = CV
or C = coulombs/joule-meter the POTENTIAL of
the particle (in this case an electron or positron is 1/2 the potential of
the photon,ie., 1/2*CV^2 = mc^2. GET IT?

>
>
>>
>>Since E = CV^2,  C = E/V^2 = 8.84E-12*lambda
>>for the progenitor photon. For each of the
>>particles r = kq^2/E etc. The rest is algebraic
>>acrobatics.    :-)
>>
>>Regards,     Frederick

MY REGARDS ARE BIGGER THAN YOUR REGARDS. :-)

regards,    frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 04:08:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA32517;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 04:05:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 04:05:12 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971228200454.0071befc cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:04:54 +0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: John Winterflood <jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Heat and sound
In-Reply-To: <34a16190.101107133 mail.eisa.net.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"VMIsR2.0._x7.t1afq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14267
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin asked:

>If both heat and sound comprise vibrations of atoms, then why does
>heat travel through a metal much more slowly than sound (thousands of
>times slower)?

If conditions are right then they travel at the same speed since
they are both essentially the same phenomenon.  I don't know much
about it but I can make a few guesses.  I guess that what you call
"sound" is at a much lower frequency than what you are calling
"heat" and the collective motion can travel ballistically without
being scattered which is what happens for "heat".

It is known that in liquid helium for instance heat travels
ballistically (ie at the speed of sound).  In fact I faintly recall
some mention of the phenomenon being called "second sound" but I
am very rusty on low temperature physics now

What I mostly remember from a recent conversation is that the main
reason that heat conductivity is slow is because it gets scattered
by imperfections in the crystalline structure and consequently has
to travel by means of a "random walk" rather than ballistically.
A case mentioned was that the conductivity of copper at liquid
helium temperatures varies by an enormous factor (10000?) depending
on its purity and whether it has been annealed to make the
crystalline domains as large as possible.

Another thing I remember was that the conductivity of sapphire
at liquid helium temperatures is also enormous (maybe 100 times
better than copper at STP?) and sapphire is an insulator - like
glass.  The reason its conductivity is so good is that the heat
conducts ballistically and the speed of sound in sapphire is
enormous.  The experiment under discussion was to cool a large
mirror (~50Kg) to a few degrees K while it was suspended by very
thin sapphire threads (being cooled through the threads!) and
being illuminated with kilowatts of laser power (almost all of
which is reflected of course).

Low temperature physics is an interesting subject and has many
surprises.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 07:05:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09742;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:03:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:03:55 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cc14f8a4d2 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:06:43 -0900
To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>,
        "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Resent-Message-ID: <"l4u7L2.0.2O2.Qfcfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14268
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:23 AM 12/28/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
[snip]
>>>If a particle has energy E = mc^2 it stands to
>>>reason that the "progenitor" photon would have
>>>energy E = CV^2. Where C is a *length only* property of the vacuum,ie., a
>>>string Coulombs/Joule-Meter as specified in "Superstring Theory".
>>>
>>>Thus CV^2 = 2*mc^2 or 1/2CV^2 = mc^2. Any energy in excess of the pair
>rest
>>>energy
>>>will be kinetic energy imparted to the pair.
>>>
>>>The photon energy CV^2 can be broken down to:
>>>
>>>C = eo* lambda [2(pi)r]; 8.84E-12 * lambda. The potential V will be
>1.022E6
>>>volts minimum for
>>>electron-positron pair production from a photon.
>>
>>
>>I don't see where the above follows. The potential 1.022E6 V only applies
>>to two particles accelerated in a gap of that potential from a standing
>>start.  I just can't see how that model applies here (maybe it does, I just
>>can't see it.)  I am sure you know volts are a potential (m^2 kg s^-3 A^-1)
>>and not eV's which are an energy (1.6x10^-19 m^2 kg s^-2).
>
>I'm sure that you know it too, Horace.   :-)
>
>VOLTS IS VOLTS (a POTENTIAL). Ev is a charge taken through A POTENTIAL V
>ie., ENERGY OR WORK. I said the POTENTIAL of the electrostatic
>field of the progenitor photon is 1.022E6 VOLTS. There is no net charge on
>the photon, but the Electric field is Volts/lambda.
>
>When a pair is formed from the photon the potential is split in half, and
>since Q = CV
>or C = coulombs/joule-meter the POTENTIAL of
>the particle (in this case an electron or positron is 1/2 the potential of
>the photon,ie., 1/2*CV^2 = mc^2. GET IT?
[snip]


OK, I get it.  You are taking the string potential of the progenitor
photon, assuming it is a string, at the moment when the magnetic field of
the progenitor photon is zero.  So how do you account for the magnetic
portion of its existence?  A circular sting?

As Frank Stenger pointed out, the E and M fields of a photon don't actually
move do they?  The collapse of one creates the next?  Same for strings?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 07:07:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25624;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:04:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:04:52 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0cc181c61bc [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 06:06:47 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Resent-Message-ID: <"p5kWq1.0.IG6.Igcfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14269
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:23 AM 12/28/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>
>I could certainly be tempted to agree with you on this. The only
>reason I can come up with why it might be invalid, is what happens to
>the electron? I don't mean "eventually", but rather immediately during
>the course of the reaction. I could imagine that a reaction might not
>proceed as easily, if the electron doesn't have another atom (ion) to
>attach itself to.

Interesting point.  This lays some credence to the possibility of the
proposed molecular hydrino catalysis:

    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV

which provides immediate places for the electrons to go.  Maybe the
reaction would be charaterized by the photon emission from electrons
dropping into orbit.

This brings up another point.  The entire reaction, including photon
production, might occur all at one moment.  The electrons don't necessarily
have to drop into the ground state.  The small differences in energy levels
might be compensated for by the wavelength of the photon emission being
caused by a drop to less than ground state.  The reaction might be also
characterized by a delayed emission at another frequency when the electron
eventually drops to ground state. This would underpin the importance you
point out of having the electron destination directly involved, part of the
energy transaction.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 08:00:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29071;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:53:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:53:45 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner corecom.net>, "vortex-l" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:49:44 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd13a8$3816e560$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"iSSHk1.0.967.8Odfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14270
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: Frederick J. Sparber <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>; vortex-l
<vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?


>At 3:23 AM 12/28/97, Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>
>>VOLTS IS VOLTS (a POTENTIAL). Ev is a charge taken through A POTENTIAL V
>>ie., ENERGY OR WORK. I said the POTENTIAL of the electrostatic
>>field of the progenitor photon is 1.022E6 VOLTS. There is no net charge on
>>the photon, but the Electric field is Volts/lambda.
>>
>>When a pair is formed from the photon the potential is split in half, and
>>since Q = CV
>>or C = coulombs/joule-meter the POTENTIAL of
>>the particle (in this case an electron or positron is 1/2 the potential of
>>the photon,ie., 1/2*CV^2 = mc^2.
>[snip]
>
>
>OK, I get it.  You are taking the string potential of the progenitor
>photon, assuming it is a string, at the moment when the magnetic field of
>the progenitor photon is zero.  So how do you account for the magnetic
>portion of its existence?  A circular string?

The true definition of the "inductance" ie., Permeability
of space is Force derived from displacement current due to
Change of Capacitance and Potential; Idis = C* dV/dt.
The permeability uo is 4(pi)Newtons/Ampere^2 which really doesn't apply to a
photon:
Force = 1E-7 *i1*i2/distance (Newtons) between current loops (like why
particles attract as in gravity) :-)

The displacement current such as you see when hooking a
battery to a capacitor is the makes the EM field in a photon. The circling
of the charge q (1.6E-19 coulombs)
or q = CV in a particle is a different story.

The photons are "linear strings-energy motion" that propagate through space
at c, just like a pulse going
down the lumped capacitances (ONLY) of a transmission line
making the "Inductance of Space" as it goes. :-)

Picture That.
>
>As Frank Stenger pointed out, the E and M fields of a photon don't actually
>move do they?

They do if the photon actually moves,don't they Frank?

 The collapse of one creates the next?  Same for strings?

It's a bit hard to visualize a length-only line or a two dimensional cat.
:-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 08:15:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00508;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:08:50 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:08:50 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cc2699953f [199.237.131.222]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:10:53 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Resent-Message-ID: <"v3R9b3.0.s7.Gcdfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14271
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:23 AM 12/28/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>
>I could certainly be tempted to agree with you on this. The only
>reason I can come up with why it might be invalid, is what happens to
>the electron? I don't mean "eventually", but rather immediately during
>the course of the reaction. I could imagine that a reaction might not
>proceed as easily, if the electron doesn't have another atom (ion) to
>attach itself to.

Interesting point.  This lays some credence to the possibility of the
proposed molecular hydrino catalysis:

    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV

which provides immediate places for the electrons to go.  Maybe the
reaction would be charaterized by the photon emission from electrons
dropping into orbit.

This brings up another point.  The entire reaction, including photon
production, might occur all at one moment.  The electrons don't necessarily
have to drop into the ground state.  The small differences in energy levels
might be compensated for by the wavelength of the photon emission being
caused by a drop to less than ground state.  The reaction might be also
characterized by a delayed emission at another frequency when the electron
eventually drops to ground state. This would underpin the importance you
point out of having the electron destination directly involved, part of the
energy transaction.

However, looking at the atomic transitions for K gives the following:

Lambda  f=c/lambda      e=h*f
(Angs)  (10^10 s^-1)    (eV)

4044.1  74131           3.066
4047.2  74074           3.063
5084.2  58966           2.439
5099.2  58792           2.431
5323.3  56317           2.329
5339.7  56144           2.322
5343.0  56109           2.320
5359.6  55936           2.313
5782.4  51846           2.144
5801.8  51672           2.137
5812.2  51580           2.133
5831.9  51406           2.126
6911.1  43378           1.794
6938.8  43205           1.787
7664.9  39112           1.618
7699.0  38939           1.610

Column 1, lambda (in Angstroms), was taken from CRC Handbook, 74th edition,
page 10-165.   Column 2, f=c/lambda was computed as f=299792458/lambda.
Column 3 was computed as e=h*f=(6.626x10^-34 J-s)*(f*10^10
s-1)/(1.602177E-19 J/eV).

There does not seem to be any means of compensating for 0.07 eV in the
manner I suggested.  Am I missing something?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 09:05:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22570;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:04:03 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:04:03 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cc346db3c9 [199.237.131.249]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 08:07:00 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Using spectra as guide to hydrino catalysts
Resent-Message-ID: <"YeIi82.0.UW5.2Qefq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14272
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I wrote:

"However, looking at the atomic transitions for K gives the following:

Lambda  f=c/lambda      e=h*f
(Angs)  (10^10 s^-1)    (eV)

4044.1  74131           3.066
4047.2  74074           3.063
5084.2  58966           2.439
5099.2  58792           2.431
5323.3  56317           2.329
5339.7  56144           2.322
5343.0  56109           2.320
5359.6  55936           2.313
5782.4  51846           2.144
5801.8  51672           2.137
5812.2  51580           2.133
5831.9  51406           2.126
6911.1  43378           1.794
6938.8  43205           1.787
7664.9  39112           1.618
7699.0  38939           1.610

Column 1, lambda (in Angstroms), was taken from CRC Handbook, 74th edition,
page 10-165.   Column 2, f=c/lambda was computed as f=299792458/lambda.
Column 3 was computed as e=h*f=(6.626x10^-34 J-s)*(f*10^10
s-1)/(1.602177E-19 J/eV).

There does not seem to be any means of compensating for 0.07 eV in the
manner I suggested.  Am I missing something?"

Just noticed I missed the K spectral lines on page 10-74.  These only show
a maximum lambda of 11772.8 Angstoms, or an energy of 1.053 eV.  I just
don't see any explanation for potassium being a good catalyst, but using
the wide variety of spectral lines it is possible to find all kinds of
other matches for catalysts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 09:53:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28170;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:49:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:49:54 -0800
Message-ID: <34A6FE63.29B2 itl.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:35:31 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712161747_MC2-2C38-A828 compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"mypZ72.0.4u6.15ffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14273
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Back online after the Christmas rush and only 500 emails to deal 
with!


	Well, I said that I would say no more on this topic, but I will 
reply to Jed's message as it is, as  usual, thought provoking.

Jed Rothwell wrote, quoting me:

>Nick Palmer makes a comment I do not understand:
>     The current idea is that the fall in rate of population growth that 
>only appears to be related to increasing wealth/development is far more
>directly linked with female literacy and emancipation which is, of     
>course, a one shot deal.

What does a "one shot deal" mean in this context? Once women are literate 
and emancipated they stay that way. They (usually) choose to limit their 
families to 1 to 4 kids, which stops the population explosion crisis. It 
only has to work once.>


I'll try to answer the above and restate what I originally said in one go.
	It is generally believed and stated that the answer to the problem 
of the world's population increasing to the point where we outstrip the 
planet's capacity to supply us with what we need, whilst doing escalating 
and terminal damage to our ecosystem life support systems, is "development" 
and increasing economic growth. I pointed out that it is more accurate to 
ascribe the fall in birth rates in "developed" nations to the rise in 
female literacy and, latterly in the "West", female political power along 
with increased job opportunities. Obviously, "development" both creates 
these things and frees people to enjoy them. If the example of Jersey shows 
that given a yet higher standard of living/quality of life/level of general 
wealth/ female opportunity etc. etc. (that still lies around the corner for 
most of you), where the natural population numbers start to increase again 
because of this, then the initial dampening effect of increased female blah 
blah etc on population growth rates cannot be used again to rein back the 
population growth.  It is a one shot deal. As Jed says "Once women are 
literate and emancipated they stay that way"


Jed wrote:
>Nick writes:

     Our natural birth rate (not to mention attempted immigration rate) is
     *increasing* as we get wealthier.

<Jed><Ahem> Let's have numbers, Nick. That kind of statement should be 
quantified. How much has it increased? Do you see many families with 8 
children? I doubt it! A mild, local increase in a population of educated 
people who can easily afford the extra children is no threat to the earth. 
If the entire British population started increasing 5% per year, that would 
be a catastrophe<

	If the case of Jersey shows what lies ahead for the rest of the 
world then it will be a catastrophe. If the graph of birth rates (y axis) 
against "development" etc (x axis) does not continue to fall, as popular 
wisdom expects, but instead rises again after a certain level of prosperity 
has been reached, the confidence that the United Nations has that the 
increasing world population problem will solve itself is misplaced.
	When I was at school in the 60's people used to scoff at fears 
about "overpopulation" because someone once calculated that we could stand 
the entire world population on the Isle of Wight, U.K. (about 140 square 
miles) giving each person a rather cramped square foot to occupy. I did the 
opposite calculation which suggested, if we spread the then world 
population of 3.6 billion evenly around the world's land area, that each 
person would have a "space" of 200 yards square. Some of these spaces 
would, of course, be hostile terrain, such as desert. Nowadays, with a 
population of around 5.5 billion, we each have around 165 yards square. 
Population, according to conventional wisdom, is forecast to stabilise 
around 11 billion by 2050. That will give each human around 115 yards 
square. Precious little room for everything else....

------------------------------------------------------------
Numbers....

quinary average birth rate (crude rate per 1000). Figures taken from the 
States of Jersey Statistical Review 1996

1960-64         19.1
65-69           16.7
70-74           12.4
75-79           11.4
80-84           11.6
85-89           12.4
90-94           13.1 	

	We have pretty low infant mortality figures (lower than the US, for 
example) and a low and falling death rate too.
	Figures for the period 95-98 haven't been published yet (for 
obvious reasons) but the States Economic Adviser, John Christensen, (and, 
incidentally, the same bloke who runs and analyses the census) tells me 
that the newest raw figures show a significant and coninuing trend to an 
increase in births over deaths in the native settled population. As Jed 
says, the whole business is very complicated but it is Mr Christensen's job 
to analyse stuff like this and make policy recomendations. It is what he 
says that I am reporting. He is convinced that Jersey's peculiar situation 
demonstrates that, beyond a certain level of wealth in the general 
population, with the wealth being more evenly distributed (Jersey has been 
called an island of "middlemen"), coupled with a secure economy, that 
population trends observed in the rest of the developed world are reversed. 
This is not because people are having "8 children" but because more are 
choosing to have 3-4 and fewer are choosing to have 0-1. People can afford 
to have child minders and nannies, private education etc., all of which 
eases demands and stress on parents (though not necessarily on children!). 
People are also not dying because of gang wars, inner city deprivation, 
T.B. etc. Also they don't have to risk getting into crime to pay for their 
drugs....
	A conventional explananation for this rise in birth rates (which is 
seen to a lesser extent elsewhere) suggests that it is "caused by the entry 
of the baby boom generation of the 1960's into their period of peak 
fertility". Whilst this obviously applies to Jersey as well, it apparently 
is not enough to explain our figures. There is this other effect. We 
shouldn't rely on economic growth (as conventionally measured) to deliver 
us from Mathusian doom.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 09:55:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28236;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:50:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:50:10 -0800
Message-ID: <34A6D0BA.1B90 itl.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:20:42 -0800
From: Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Richard W. Wall
References: <199712260222.UAA01535 dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA28203
Resent-Message-ID: <"MbKBF.0.0v6.H5ffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14274
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Richard W.Wall wrote:

>Nick,
>
>Please send my one hundred pounds sterling forwith or in the
>alternative please send the the SMOT that Greg sent you that will
>perform rollaround in a suitably OU fashion ..... for my verification,
>of course.  I will subsequently release it to all on the list.  %^)
>
>RWW

I would love to send you £100 Richard, but you don't seem to have read 
the small print (whoops - same size print as the rest, actually) in my 
challenge. I quote:

Nick P. wrote:
       I bet R.W.W. one hundred pounds sterling that Greg will ship and
that my SMOT will rollaround in a suitably OU fashion...... provided
that R.W.W. will give me odds of 1000 to 1 against this. He is sooooo
confident that I am sure he will agree to demonstrate his faith in his
powers of analysis.
       Looking forward to receiving my OU SMOT + £100,000 before
Christmas! End quote.

Sadly, you didn't confirm to me (or Vortex) that you accepted the odds of 
1000-1! Bummer! Also, the actual bet is open ended as to when Greg may 
ship, I was merely *looking forward* to receiving the booty before 
christmas. In that, I have been disappointed. Fellow Vortexians may be 
interested to note that I have emailed Rachel Watson (the only member 
of Greg's family who has a separate email address) as follows:

Date: 
        Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:27:29 -0800 
  From: 
        Nick Palmer <nick7 itl.net>
    To: 
        chichimini hotmail.com


Hi Rachel,
         Is your father OK?. I'm one of those who have ordered one of his
SMOT's and he is behaving in a manner that some think is evasive. We
have asked him questions by email and he has not replied. Is he in any
form of trouble? He has told us that at least some of the machined
perspex SMOT's work so he must send them out to his customers. This
un-named "conservation organisation" cannot force him to renege on his
agreement. Please let me know what's happening.

                                      Sincerely,
 

                                      Nick Palmer(SMOT order #8)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 09:56:46 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28881;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:55:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:55:42 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Using spectra as guide to hydrino catalysts
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:52:42 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd13b9$658a93a0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"oircN2.0.B37.TAffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14276
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner <hheffner corecom.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 9:42 AM
Subject: Using spectra as guide to hydrino catalysts


>I wrote:
>
>"However, looking at the atomic transitions for K gives the following:
>
>Lambda  f=c/lambda      e=h*f
>(Angs)  (10^10 s^-1)    (eV)
>
>4044.1  74131           3.066
>4047.2  74074           3.063
>5084.2  58966           2.439
>5099.2  58792           2.431
>5323.3  56317           2.329
>5339.7  56144           2.322
>5343.0  56109           2.320
>5359.6  55936           2.313
>5782.4  51846           2.144
>5801.8  51672           2.137
>5812.2  51580           2.133
>5831.9  51406           2.126
>6911.1  43378           1.794
>6938.8  43205           1.787
>7664.9  39112           1.618
>7699.0  38939           1.610
>
>Column 1, lambda (in Angstroms), was taken from CRC Handbook, 74th edition,
>page 10-165.   Column 2, f=c/lambda was computed as f=299792458/lambda.
>Column 3 was computed as e=h*f=(6.626x10^-34 J-s)*(f*10^10
>s-1)/(1.602177E-19 J/eV).
>
>There does not seem to be any means of compensating for 0.07 eV in the
>manner I suggested.  Am I missing something?"
>
>Just noticed I missed the K spectral lines on page 10-74.  These only show
>a maximum lambda of 11772.8 Angstoms, or an energy of 1.053 eV.  I just
>don't see any explanation for potassium being a good catalyst,

Yeh,But just about right for a "Light Lepton"
Pair Production "Resonance" Ain't It.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick


but using
>the wide variety of spectral lines it is possible to find all kinds of
>other matches for catalysts.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 09:58:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28825;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:55:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 09:55:34 -0800
Message-Id: <199712281755.LAA06427 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:55:52 (-050
Subject: Re: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <19971227223251.AAA13042 HOME>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"YKxXf2.0.627.KAffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14275
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Ed, Kurt,

> From:          Ed Wall <ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net>
> Date:          Sat, 27 Dec 1997 22:32:58 +0000
> 
> I am amazed to see Rich Murray, demander of electrochemical minutia,
> pursuer of fact to the Nth degree, flaunting a belief promulgated as
> probable fact.  It seems he has caught the tendency of modern science to
> accept anything if there exists little possibility of empirical verification
> (a.k.a. myth).

Am I mistaken, or is Rich possibly familiar with superstring theory, 
which (from what I have read)  appears to accept the possibility of an 
infinite number of parallel time-lines as an outcome of it's math?

Have you guys read Kaku's book?  It's closer to Seth's view of our 
universe(s) than you seem to acknowledge.

 
-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 10:37:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01322;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:35:20 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:32:18 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd13be$ed994200$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"sfLwV1.0.aK.alffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14277
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Dean T. Miller <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette


Dean wrote


>
>Am I mistaken, or is Rich possibly familiar with superstring theory, 
>which (from what I have read)  appears to accept the possibility of an 
>infinite number of parallel time-lines as an outcome of it's math?

Could you elaborate on that a bit, Dean? Say in
25 words or less?   :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Have you guys read Kaku's book?  It's closer to Seth's view of our 
>universe(s) than you seem to acknowledge.
>
> 
>-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 10:47:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02607;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:44:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:44:19 -0800
Message-ID: <34A69E0E.64E2 interlaced.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:44:30 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
References: <01bd13a8$3816e560$LocalHost default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"sCE0U1.0.ae.1uffq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14278
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> 

> >As Frank Stenger pointed out, the E and M fields of a photon don't actually
> >move do they?
> 
> They do if the photon actually moves,don't they Frank?
> 
>  The collapse of one creates the next?  Same for strings?
> 

Like they say, Fred, I can't match wits with you when I'm only half
prepared.  But, if you're B and I'm E (in vacuum):

		curl E = - (partial B)/(partial t).

So, with your negative personality, I only show up when you're leaving!
And, what's this about you wanting to bid on re-roofing my house?

Frank S.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 12:44:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16947;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:27:36 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:27:36 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:24:52 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd13ce$a78146e0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ikeof2.0.j84.tOhfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14279
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Francis J. Stenger <fstenger interlaced.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 1997 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: E = 1/2 * CV^2 = mc^2, and why?


>Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>
>
>> >As Frank Stenger pointed out, the E and M fields of a photon don't
actually
>> >move do they?
>>
>> They do if the photon actually moves,don't they Frank?
>>
>>  The collapse of one creates the next?  Same for strings?
>>
>
>Like they say, Fred, I can't match wits with you when I'm only half
>prepared.  But, if you're B and I'm E (in vacuum):
>
> curl E = - (partial B)/(partial t).
>
>So, with your negative personality, I only show up when you're leaving!
>And, what's this about you wanting to bid on re-roofing my house?

Hey, with 3 meter (10 ft) resolution from a commercial "spy-like" satellite
300 miles up
in space that can tell me that a house at
coordinates such and such, owned by so and so,
phone, fax, and e-mail address, worth a lot of bucks, needs a new Roof and
better attic insulation (R36 or better)and since roofing and insulation is
priced out at so much per square (10' x 10')how can you pass up sending a
pair of SUPERSALES FOLKS like JED and GENE out on a house-call?  You
wouldn't have a prayer,Frank. :-)

Regards,     Frederick
>
>Frank S.
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 13:11:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19475;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:51:57 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:51:57 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712282051.OAA23982 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
In-Reply-To: <34A6FE63.29B2 itl.net> from Nick Palmer at "Dec 28, 97 05:35:31 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:51:23 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"O3uyj2.0.Dm4.ilhfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14280
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nick Palmer wrote:

> 	If the case of Jersey shows what lies ahead for the rest of the 
> world then it will be a catastrophe.

What a laugh.  You've hardly made the case that your local trend is
due to anything in particular -- you've merely asserted it.  You have
also failed to show that the TFR excceds 2.1, instead offering just
the GFR.  In fact, I believe your numbers indicate a TFR well below
2.1.  You haven't shown if local immigration accounts for the demographic
shift, nor have you shown if the local TFR was uncharacteristically
low.  Your case is the typical one of wildly extrapolated trends
with no basis in demonstrable fact.

> quinary average birth rate (crude rate per 1000). Figures taken from the 
> States of Jersey Statistical Review 1996
> 
> 1960-64         19.1
> 65-69           16.7
> 70-74           12.4
> 75-79           11.4
> 80-84           11.6
> 85-89           12.4
> 90-94           13.1 	

I'll leave you with this:

THE OLD STORY: FEWER CHILDREN AMONG THE WELL TO DO

In the long run, a general rule about fertility rates seems to prevail:
the higher the level of education, the higher the level of family income,
the greater the job opportunities for women, and the greater the knowledge
of birth control, the lower the fertility rate. This rule has held for
hundreds of years in virtually every country with only a few notable
exceptions such as the post-World War II baby boom in the rich countries
of the world.

The experience of the past decades in the richest countries seems to bear out
this general rule. Fertility rates are all well down from those a quarter
century ago (when the baby boom was already history). In fact, in every one
of the largest of the rich countries, the birth rate is at or well below the
long-term replacement rate (Table 16). These trends seem to support the
general rule that the higher the level of education and the higher the
income, the lower the fertility rate.

Table 16
Fertility Among the Rich is Low and Falling
(Total fertility rate)

                1970  1994
United States    2.5   2.1
France           2.5   1.7
Italy            2.4   1.3
United Kingdom   2.4   1.8
Japan            2.1   1.5
Germany          2.1   1.3


Note: Total fertility rate measures the number of children
born to a woman throughout her life at current age-specific
birth rates. The relacement rate at which the population 
would maintain itself at the same level is 2.1; anything 
below that rate means that in the long run the population 
would decline.

Source: World Bank, World Development Indicators
1993, and Population Reference Bureau, World Population Data Sheet 1994

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 14:16:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04488;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 14:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A6CEA1.6DF7 interlaced.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:11:45 -0500
From: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger interlaced.net>
Organization: NASA (Retired)
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712282051.OAA23982 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"rJi921.0.261.9xifq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14281
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
> 

> Table 16
> Fertility Among the Rich is Low and Falling
> (Total fertility rate)
> 
>                 1970  1994
> United States    2.5   2.1
> France           2.5   1.7
> Italy            2.4   1.3
> United Kingdom   2.4   1.8
> Japan            2.1   1.5
> Germany          2.1   1.3
> 

I see your point, John.  How about a more sinister issue - I wonder how
the stability of the population mix works.  IOW, In the rich countries
is it the under-educated groups that bare the most children (I don't
mean to say "dumb" people, but groups such as single moms who simply
lack the resources to elevate their children into the country's "rich"
group.)  I know - the opportunity is there, but does it happen?  This
whole idea of the stability of a desirable mix (whatever that is!)
seems like a complex issue to project too far into the future. 
Although, it seems our gene pool is subject to more mixing than in the
past, not less - I guess that's good for the population in general.
Biologists?

No agenda - just an interesting area - Frank Stenger

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 16:10:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15741;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A6E95C.1314 gorge.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:05:48 -0800
From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom gorge.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712282044.MAA18582 mx1.eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HB4fx3.0.pr3.Zbkfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14282
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nick Palmer wrote:		

> If the case of Jersey shows what lies ahead for the rest of the 
> world then it will be a catastrophe.

Of course, the "case of Jersey" cannot "show what lies ahead for
the rest of the world..." because the situation in Jersey cannot
possibly happen worldwide. As Mr. Palmer wrote, Jersey's economy
is charachterized by "middlemen," and driven by an influx of tax-
avoiding money.

Almost all of the remainder of the world must PRODUCE something
in order to obtain money. The economies of Jersey, Switzerland, 
or the Cayman Islands are based on an artifact (that of being 
a tax haven) which cannot exist in the world as a whole.

Tom Miller

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 16:32:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21007;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:17:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 16:17:43 -0800
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:11:50 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, John Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ducks
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971228190633.29135B-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"_zqAl1.0.185.bmkfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14283
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



	[1] A duck goes into the drug store and asks "Got any duck feed?"
	[2] Drugstore guy answers "This is a drug store, we don't have 
duck feed ... and get out!"
	Next ... [1] again
	[2] .... we don't have any and don't come back..
	[1] ... again
	[2] ... we don't have any and if your come back in again I will 
nail your duck feet to the floor!

	Duck comes in again and asks  "Do you have any nails?"  and the drug
store guy shouts  "NO!" .... and the duck asks "Got any duck feed?"
  	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 18:22:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01816;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:15:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:15:57 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 20:14:22 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712290214.UAA23000 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall)
Subject: Re: Richard W. Wall
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"hTy5F2.0.ES.PVmfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14284
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Nick P. wrote: 

snip

>       Looking forward to receiving my OU SMOT + £100,000 before
>Christmas! End quote.
>
>Sadly, you didn't confirm to me (or Vortex) that you accepted the odds 
>of 1000-1! Bummer! Also, the actual bet is open ended as to when Greg 
>may ship, I was merely *looking forward* to receiving the booty before 
>christmas. In that, I have been disappointed.

Yes, Nick, I know you must be truely disappointed that you did not 
receive your Christmas present from Mr. Watson.  However, your 1000-1 
"Sucker Bet" - no offense, as this is a Southern colloqialism we Yanks 
sometimes use %^)  - was too good to resist.  If you needed this kind 
of odds there is no doubt about the confidence you placed in Mr.
Watson's claimed technologies.  It was a very safe bet.   

Now you choose to publicly disavow the wager that you have made.  
Rather than embarrass you anymore, I will allow the members of the list 
to judge your credibility. 

Please respond privately in future posts and I will tell you where to 
send my 100 pounds.

Sincerely, a very amused,

RWW

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 19:11:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08873;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 19:04:47 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <01BD1452.7F8A8460 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp>
From: Melvin Miles <miles nhelab.iae.or.jp>
To: "'Vortex'" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Miles reply to Jones & Hansen/J. Phys. Chem.       
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:08:39 +-900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA08848
Resent-Message-ID: <"inZ2t.0.YA2.DDnfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14285
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This letter is my latest effort to have my reply to Jones and Hansen published by the Journal of Physical Chemistry:

Dr. Melvin H. Miles
The Institute of Applied Energy
New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory
3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo
Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan
81-11-898-6391 - Phone
81-11-898-6390 - Fax
miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - E-mail

December 26, 1997

Dr. Mostafa A. El-Sayed
Editor-in-Chief
The Journal of Physical Chemistry
School of Chemistry and Biochemistry
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta, GA 30332-0400

Dear Dr. El-Sayed:

I am once again concerned about the delay in the publication of my response to S.E. Jones and L.D. Hansen.  These two authors wrote to me last month suggesting that I revise my comments.  Since I have no intention of following their suggestion, I hope you
 will not allow Jones and Hansen to prolong the delay in the publication of my reply to their abusing, inaccurate, slanted, distorted, incompetent, and dishonest paper criticizing my work.

If I were to make any changes, it would be to insert additional comments.  For example, the theoretical section by Jones and Hansen regarding the uncertainty principle is an over-simplification of complex solid state physics and even involves the wrong in
equality sign that invalidates the theoretical conclusions by Jones and Hansen.  The correct expression for the uncertainty principle is:

DE× Dt ³ h-bar that yields R = c×Dt ³ h-bar×c/ DE

For DE = 23.8 MeV, R = c× Dt ³ 10-14 m.  Therefore, this 10-14 m calculated by Jones and Hansen represents only the lower limit placed on R by the uncertainly principle argument.  It is not the maximum value possible as they infer.  The various errors in 
the Jones and Hansen critique of my work would not have been published had the manuscript been sent to competent and unbiased referees

Please bring this matter to a final conclusion by publishing my reply.

Sincerely,


Dr. Melvin H. Miles

Cc:  Drs. Jones and Hansen, BYU


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 22:51:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28718;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:48:21 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:48:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712290647.AAA28872 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
In-Reply-To: <34A6CEA1.6DF7 interlaced.net> from "Francis J. Stenger" at "Dec 28, 97 05:11:45 pm"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:47:21 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"tTOoQ3.0.e07.pUqfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14286
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> How about a more sinister issue - I wonder how
> the stability of the population mix works.  IOW, In the rich countries
> is it the under-educated groups that bare the most children (I don't
> mean to say "dumb" people, but groups such as single moms who simply
> lack the resources to elevate their children into the country's "rich"
> group.)  I know - the opportunity is there, but does it happen?  This
> whole idea of the stability of a desirable mix (whatever that is!)
> seems like a complex issue to project too far into the future. 
> Although, it seems our gene pool is subject to more mixing than in the
> past, not less - I guess that's good for the population in general.

Charles Murray's "The Bell Curve" was a fairly recent controversial
book on exactly that subject.  His worry wasn't so much that a lowering
IQ average would harm progress, but that at the lowest IQ strata, a
larger group of people would be shut out of the higher paying high
tech, high intelligence information society  occupations.  An expansion
of the permanent underclass.

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 23:34:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03458;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:32:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <01BD1477.EAA83D80 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp>
From: Melvin Miles <miles nhelab.iae.or.jp>
To: "'Vortex'" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:36:25 +-900
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id XAA03441
Resent-Message-ID: <"lo2CC3.0.yr.78rfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14287
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

My mathematical symbols were changed during the e-mail transmission.  My equation should read:

Delta E times delta t is greater than or equal to h-bar that yields R = c times delta t that is greater than or equal to h-bar times c / delta E.

For delta E equals 23.8 MeV, R= c times delta t that is greater than or equal to (10 to the -14) m.

For any questions concerning this matter, please refer to any textbook covering the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Dec 28 23:37:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03825;
	Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:35:33 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 23:35:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:34:08 -0700
Message-Id: <199712290734.AAA25499 freenet.uchsc.EDU>
From: bx196 freenet.uchsc.EDU (Mike W. McClure)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: BAD SMOT difficulty
Reply-To: bx196 freenet.uchsc.EDU
Resent-Message-ID: <"dEQMb.0.gx.3Brfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14288
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Somethings ODD here.

>From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
>Subject: SMOT difficulty
-snip-
>  - He was seems highly afraid from the "On Dangerous Ground" event. He never
>    speculated on this. Even after informing us it was a son of a friend the
>    explanation was cold and formal. We can hardly suspect this was a imaginary.
Do you remember a change in his help demeanor at this point?
-snip-
>  - If world wide conservation organization was imaginary, why it is chosen so?
>    Not really a good nominee for this purpose. Why he is appeared so in controlled
>    and lost all his initiatives. This is not good way to lie if he is not 
>    intentionally we force to think on conspiracy.
>
Do you remember him saying, " this is for ALL the world, NOT the money "
and he would guide us step by step so we could all have a working SMOT to
experiment with?  I do!  Something appears odd! "WORLD WIDE CONSERVATION"
AND "THIRD WORLD COUNTRY" AND TROUBLE ON THE HOME FRONT and now LESS POWER
"1KW"??  
>
>hamdi ucar
>
>
Do you remember (oddly again) that three or four vortexians had to ASKED him
WHY is your "LOGIN" DIFFERENT NOW?  I can't recall the exact error, but
should be reviewable by all with post-recorded files  = from April until
'recently' he was gwatson microtronic.au.co etc..... Then the "ODD"
entries - (SOON corrected when pointed out by others, then SILENCE) was
gwatsEn microtronics.au.co etc....  Whatever the oddity, It seems odd
indeed that ONE would forget or change his IRname unless something is
amiss here.
MIB? hummmm  -  I hoped BARRY would write the equation for what was
actually going on and JED would elicitate on the anomaly seen, I hoped
jean-louis would replicate and Little would would give Thumbs-Up with his
replications.
All the above is of course 'explainable' per typo. hummmmm
Three maybe four deaths in a user group of ~150?  . hummmmmm
Everything is ok, "IT WAS A SON OF A NIEGHBOR!"
Everything is ok, "I DON'T NEED THE MONEY, BUT WENT TO 3rd WORLD!"
Everything is ok, "BOOKEEPING PROBLEMS (complex) NOW.
Everything is ok, "normally verbose" I CAN'T TALK NOW.
hummm silence silence silence - You Will Forget!!
AND this coverup is over "PLAYING WITH OUR STEEL BALLS?" 
seems odd to me. How can there even be sides, espically hostile and
determined to bury the obvious, when ONE talks about magnetic parlor tricks.

AND THE COUP de GROUp who is "deadsmot hotmail.com" MARC ??

Interesting NAME here, reminds me of "epitaxy local....."


hummmmmmmmm
Give me a break!  SAVE YOUR SMOT FILES UNDER LOCK AND KEY!

hummmmmmmm couldn't be the big boys now could it?

Oddly,
MM

--




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 00:16:29 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06251;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:11:03 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 00:11:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A776A9.6C53 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:08:41 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: bx196 freenet.uchsc.EDU
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BAD SMOT difficulty
References: <199712290734.AAA25499 freenet.uchsc.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"0FHJz1.0.bX1.Mirfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14289
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

Well, since there is a lot of speculation about who or what Greg might 
be; what if it is/was all a hoax like the recent P.Brown phony report?  
Maybe it didn't start that way, but claiming a hoax would be an easy out.

>From all the posts I've seen, it looks more like simply a case of making 
too many claims, then not being able to back them up.  A test of 
gullibility of the readers which is what the Brown hoaxer was trying to 
get across in his/her own twisted way.

The point was to show how many of the free energy/alt science followers 
allow (our)themselves to be taken in by a good storyline far more than 
would a critical thinker who would check up on every detail.

Such an open and easy attitude makes the field ripe for exploitation by 
unproven claims or unreproduced historical accounts that are near mythic.

Others have pointed out the strangeness and changes in attitude/approach 
exhibited by Watson.  Not to mention the shear illegality of this new 
consortium taking on the responsibility for the delivery of products from 
a pre-existent business arrangement (money changed hands in a sale of 
merchandise).

The whole thing is weird but it is after all, in my opinion, a tempest in 
a teacup.  No big conspiracy, no government interference, no spook or 
other behind-the-scenes players.  Just a series of errors that compound 
each other.  In a year or less, all of it will be just another 
spook story, much like the erroneous MRA.

Still there is time to resolve it, but that is entirely up to Greg.  
Though I did not order one of these units and so have no say in the 
matter, I see others do not hesitate to post their opinions so, for what 
its worth, these are mine.  To my view the choices are simple;

  1)  Return the money with a note of apology 
  2)  Mail the failed units and include a suggestion sheet for how to 
      best adjust the unit

If they don't work right out of the box, well, DUH!  That's like 
expecting a working overunity circuit that will change the world 
available at your local WalMart.  Reality check clearly called for.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 02:17:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12687;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:13:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102800b0cd0b3d7017 [12.64.66.23]>
In-Reply-To: <199712290214.UAA23000 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 22:11:19 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Richard W. Wall
Resent-Message-ID: <"FtDcy.0.x53.uUtfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14290
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

C'mon you guys. Paraphrasing Letterman: free energy is for amusement
purposes only. No wagering.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 03:39:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18740;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:36:36 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:36:36 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:34:45 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a8006d.239121204 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530501b0cc2699953f [199.237.131.222]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0cc2699953f [199.237.131.222]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Gs1_V1.0.ka4.2jufq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14291
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Sun, 28 Dec 1997 07:10:53 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>At 12:23 AM 12/28/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>[snip]
>>
>>I could certainly be tempted to agree with you on this. The only
>>reason I can come up with why it might be invalid, is what happens to
>>the electron? I don't mean "eventually", but rather immediately during
>>the course of the reaction. I could imagine that a reaction might not
>>proceed as easily, if the electron doesn't have another atom (ion) to
>>attach itself to.
>
>Interesting point.  This lays some credence to the possibility of the
>proposed molecular hydrino catalysis:
>
>    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV
>
>    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV
>
>    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV

While true that these reactions provide places for the electron to go,
if it were actually to do so, then the reaction energy would be
different, as you can see by calculating the energy of reactions which
yield ions, but no free electrons.

>
>which provides immediate places for the electrons to go.  Maybe the
>reaction would be charaterized by the photon emission from electrons
>dropping into orbit.

You might be right.

>
>This brings up another point.  The entire reaction, including photon
>production, might occur all at one moment.  The electrons don't necessarily
>have to drop into the ground state.  The small differences in energy levels
>might be compensated for by the wavelength of the photon emission being
>caused by a drop to less than ground state.  
[snip]
>
>However, looking at the atomic transitions for K gives the following:
>
>Lambda  f=c/lambda      e=h*f
>(Angs)  (10^10 s^-1)    (eV)
>
[snip]
>7699.0  38939           1.610
>
>Column 1, lambda (in Angstroms), was taken from CRC Handbook, 74th edition,
>page 10-165.   Column 2, f=c/lambda was computed as f=299792458/lambda.
>Column 3 was computed as e=h*f=(6.626x10^-34 J-s)*(f*10^10
>s-1)/(1.602177E-19 J/eV).
>
>There does not seem to be any means of compensating for 0.07 eV in the
>manner I suggested.  Am I missing something?

I think so. To start with the Hydrino formation reaction is actually
*short* of the energy required for the potassium reaction.
I.e.  H -> Hy yields 27.1968 eV, but 

      2 K+ -> K + K++ requires 27.2843 eV.

So it appears to me that it is necessary to find this energy
difference somewhere before the reaction can happen. 
Alternately, energy levels of K+, K, and K++ may need to be found that
have either "exactly" the right difference, or a very slight excess.
This may mean starting off with an excited K+ ion(s), and also ending
up with excited products. If this turns out to be possible, then
exciting the K+ ions with light of exactly the right frequency, could
greatly enhance the reaction rate.
If this method should work, then it would appear likely that the
number of possible catalysts could be greatly increased, simply by
finding the correct frequency light with which to irradiate the
reaction. One might even consider a strong white light to start with,
and check for absorption bands when the energy production is at its
peak (as an investigative tool).

This brings to mind Stanley Meyer's claim that he can improve his
production with light of a certain frequency.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 03:50:10 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20631;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:48:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 03:48:54 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34A77DFF.3EE6450A mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 05:39:59 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712290647.AAA28872 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Y5QCf1.0.D25.auufq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14292
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Logajan wrote:
 
 "Francis J. Stenger wrote:

 "How about a more sinister issue - I wonder how
 the stability of the population mix works. 
 IOW, In the rich countries is it the
 under-educated groups that bear the most children?..."

 Charles Murray's "The Bell Curve" was a fairly
 recent controversial book on exactly that subject.
 His worry wasn't so much that a lowering
 IQ average would harm progress, but that at
 the lowest IQ strata, a larger group of people
 would be shut out of the higher paying high
 tech, high intelligence information society
 occupations.  An expansion of the permanent
 underclass."
 
Hi John,

Murray's point was that it is useless to 
educate members of the underclass becuase of 
their lack of genetic potential.  The best
that we can do is to keep them entertained
or imprisoned.  His position is based on fairly
weak correlations between IQ and teen pregnancy, etc.
His argument is like the that put forward by
the cigarette companies that those who are going
to get lung cancer (whether or not they smoke)
have an above-average desire to smoke, hence the
positive correlation, illustrating once more
what can be done with design equations.  Was it
Disraeli who said "there are liars, damned liars,
and statiticians?"

What Murray neglects to point out in his book is
that raw intelligence test scores have been rising
dramtically since the first major body of data was
obtained during World War I.  IQ, of course, in any
year, is obtained by dividing all scores by the
average score.  What is most astonishing is the
rapid increase in raw spatial relations scores in
recent years.  Spatial relations are supposed to be
the "purest" measure of intelligence.  This, I think,
is discussed in a fall, 1997, issue of American
Scientist.

Murray's propaganda, if swallowed by enough
people, could have a devastating effect on American
economic progress, which is most influenced
by investments in human capital.  Although most
citizens are dimly aware that it is cheaper to
educate young people than to imprison them, it
would be irrational to spend tax dollars on education
in an effort to transmute sows' ears into silk
purses.

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 04:42:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22666;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971229073810.006a66cc world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:38:10 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: COLD FUSION TIMES is six (6) years old!! Vol.6, 1 at printer
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"reBLm2.0.4Y5.5evfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14293
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


                                                     December 28, 1997
  Dear colleagues:

The latest issue of the  COLD FUSION TIMES  -- 
    [ Vol 6 number 1 (Winter 98)]  is on route to the printer.

  A brief survey of this issue (Vol 6, Number 1) includes the
following:

-Increasing details regarding the location, and the nature of,
  the anomalous heat generated by cold fusion
- Focus upon the Thermal and Nuclear Events Associated 
  Cold Fusion
-  More on Codeposition, and other advanced systems
-  A summary review and excerpts of selected papers from
  the 32nd INTERNATIONAL ENERGY TECHNOLOGY
  CONFERENCE [IECEC 1997]
-  Part II - Japanese cold fusion Muon-powered Airplane
-  Tribute to Cold Fusioneer Chris Tinsley
-  Reviews of the "Cold Fusion" Phenomena
-  Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators 
-  Impact of, and results from, Nickel,Titanium, Palladium, 
   and Gold Electrodes
-  Bypass of Acoustic Shock in Engineering Systems
-  Additional info on Cold Fusion Theory, Calorimetry, and 
   Electrochemistry
-  Analysis of Japanese New Hydrogen Energy Program
-  U.S. Funds High Energy Physics outside of the US
-  The new COLD FUSION TIMES' Group VIII Metal Price Listings
       including a two decade analysis
-  Discussion of other cross-fertilized fusion systems
-  More analyses of NHE Program
 - More Isotopic Anomalies
 
 - The best of the worlds literature in hand
 - Gas Loading, Solid State, Electrolysis Systems
 - More journals articles you may have missed, including a new
      column on Japanese literature

 - Practical Information and Reference Vectors, including
 - Engineering and Research Updates
 - ESD, EMI Issues
 - Updates on Equipment, Supplies, Consulting Available
 - "What's Happening", "Material Science and Engineering"


                and more

      As always, the COLD FUSION TIMES
  ISSN#1072-2874       http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
attempts to focus on hard-core science, nuclear, and 
engineering issues, with detailed material science and nuclear 
physics analyses, and surveys of the present developments in the 
cold fusion field.  

   The cover page, with a few of the stories, will be available
shortly (when the newest 1998 issue is in the hands of subscribers)
at the COLD FUSION TIMES web site.

   Happy New Year.
   Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 04:51:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23280;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:49:26 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 04:49:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971229074801.006a66cc world.std.com>
X-Sender: mica world.std.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 07:48:01 +0000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Mitchell Swartz <mica world.std.com>
Subject: Re: Enyo and Mizuno on pressure
In-Reply-To: <19971224002336.AAC19107 HOME>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3wd5Q2.0.dh5.Knvfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14294
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



At 12:23 AM 12/24/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote:

>

>Would someone please explain what overpotential is to someone not so
well

>versed in electrochemistry?

>



  Will try.


  In electrochemical systems [ignoring for this simplified

discussion for a moment that there are two electrodes, 

and contact potentials] there is a theoretical voltage 

where reactions occur.


   But they do not, because the actual potential

at that site is not the potential (voltage * -1

because of Ben Franklin) actually applied.

Furthermore, there is an additional overvoltage 

(overpotential) which has at least three well known sources,

and which is required to be achieved before the 

reactions occur at a significant rate.

These are:


  1) IR drop


  2) concentration polarization (changes rate 

       at about doubling per ~30 degrees C)


  3) activation polarization. (changes rate 

       at about doubling per ~10 degrees C)



  The above three are well known in electrochemical

literature, and have given the refs previously.


 IMO there are other issues often not considered in that

literature as well which includes contact potentials

and other forms of polarization, but these are 

usually less important in impact. 



 To summarize: At the <bold>overvoltage</bold>, there has occurred
enough

polarization therein that the reactions begin to increase

at an appreciable and significant rate.  Thereafter,

small increases in voltage yield large increases

in electrical current.


  Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 06:57:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03409;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:53:07 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:51:37 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712291451.IAA09407 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall)
Subject: Re: Richard W. Wall
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"8f85-3.0.Br.Hbxfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14295
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

RM wrote: 
>
>C'mon you guys. Paraphrasing Letterman: free energy is for amusement
>purposes only. No wagering.
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Lighten up Rick!  This IS all for fun and amusement.  Sorry you missed 
the humor.

RWW

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 09:15:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24065;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:12:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:12:22 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <4908c2fa.34a7d93a aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:09:12 EST
To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Where to look for free energy
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"IOksf3.0.lt5.rdzfq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14296
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/24/97 11:32:33 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote:

<<(1)  To obtain energy from ZPE, photons whizzing by, all we need is to find
a way to absorb them.  Therefore, a sufficiently insulated piece of lead,
for example, being able to absorb energy in the low end of the ZPE
spectrum, should spontaneously continue to rise in temperature.>>

Not so, unfortunately.  It can be shown that absorption of ZPE by dipoles
(which is what absorption is) yields a re-emission without a change in spatial
or spectral distribution.  (See, e.g., H. E. Puthoff, "Source of vacuum
electromagnetic zero-point energy," Phys Rev A, vol 40, p. 4857, 1989.)
Therefore, unlike absorption of photons in the usual sense, ZPE absorption/re-
emission is an equilibrium process.

Best regards,
Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 09:32:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23766;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:28:24 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:27:03 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712291727.LAA03801 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki )
Subject: TWA flt 800, William Donaldson, and Eugene Mallove
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: 76570.2270 compuserve.com
Cc: aki ix.netcom.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"46SCV.0.Gp5.sszfq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14297
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

December 29, 1997

To Beaty's Vortex,

I do not think too many people took in Art Bell's Dec. 24th broadcast. 
I started to, but the radio blared on as I lapsed into sleep. 
Fortunately, on Sunday, Dec. 28th, there was a double repeat of the 
broadcast of which the first hour was important. It gave me chance to 
record the segment.

Oh, wishing you all are having a a fine time of the season of holy days 
and an expectations of furthur progress in the New Year!

The TWA Flight 800 was hit by an explosive external to the aircraft.

Recently, the NTSC (National Transportation Safety Commission) 
conducted  public hearings to cover its results of the study of the TWA 
Flt 800 air disaster. Their conclusion? None, cause not known, except 
to recommend added safety measures on the center fuel tank that 
exploded.

William Donaldson, an aviation consultant, attended the hearings as a 
credentialed reporter representing Accracy in Media (FAX 
1-800-787-4567). He, along with those that attended the limited access 
'public hearings', were given copious data on the study that went into 
the Flt 800 disaster.

Donaldson has the opinion that deception went on in NTSB's conduct of 
the public hearing including unmentioned items, along with unexplained 
portions of the Flight Data Recorder's data.

1. The NTSC chartered test flights with a 747 produced at maximum, 
non-explosive center tank conditions on the ground at 118 degrees, and 
at 111 degrees, "marginally flammable" (fumes are flammable, marginally 
explosive) at 14,000 feet altitude. This was on a "profile" test 
flight. On an actual test flight, at take-off, the tank temperature was 
at 88 degrees. What the NTSC did not include in the 6000 pages of 
study, was that the temperature of the center tank on Flight 800 was at 
71 degrees. So if the center tank enviroment was marginally flammable 
at 111 degrees, then what of the tank at less than 71 degrees?

2. The Flight Data Recorder data records the engineering data of the 
flight to help with analysis when there comes a need to study such 
data. The NTSC handouts contained the data records up to where the 
recorder either lost power or the flight crashed. The section presumed 
to be the last section of the data was lined out, indicating that data 
that followed after the line-out was older previous data from another 
flight.

3. A retired TWA captain (Howard Mann) involved with another crash 
investigator pointed out what Donaldson initially missed. It was that 
the section that NTSC had lined out had data of the last fractions of 
seconds that was relevant to Flight 800 and not another flight. The 
time code to the last data segment tied it to Flight 800. And upon 
careful analysis, the data behind the 'line-out' was retrieved. It is 
believed that the data without the 'line-out' is available on the 
internet.

4. What the last fraction of seconds revealed to Donaldson were much 
data that consistantly pointed out that Flight 800 suffered an 
explosion external to the craft that caused the disaster. It was 
reported early in the disaster that there were two explosions, the 
second one being the center tank explosion.

5. Within the time limitations of a talk radio, Donalson revealed three 
items, among many available, that pointed to an explosion. One, the 
altitude indicator showed a sudden decrease in altitude (13,672 to 
10,000+ feet in a second) not possible except with a sudden 
pressurization of the pitot as from an explosion, not from a tank 
explosion (insufficient pressures) but something external. Besides, a 
tank explosion would have cut off power lines to the indicator before 
being recorded. Two, the air-speed indicator showed a sudden drop in 
airspeed (298 to 100 knots) within a second. This was not possible 
except as its pitot static air pressure suddenly rose, as from an 
external explosion and not from a center tank explosion. Three, the 
'angle of attack' indicator (indicates at what direction the wind to 
plane is coming from like a wind vane)) shows within a second, a 
dramatic change in the wind direction (from 3 degrees to 106 degrees). 
Then proceeds to indicate the wind change (1/4 seconds later) to 30 
degrees then (1/2 seconds later) back to 3 degrees before the power 
broke off. These data, and other data from the last segment of the 
recorder all consistantly indicate radical changes to the aircraft 
caused by an external explosion and nothing else. And these data was 
lined out at the NTSC hearing and the cause of the disaster was given 
as unknown.

Immediately, I recognized in this Flt 800 revelation, a similarity to 
Dr. Eugene Mallove's account of his cold fusion cause and battle 
starting with his alma mater MIT's handling of its cold fusion 
experiment and results. 'Gene had enough material of his experience 
with MIT to write "Fire From Ice" (nominated for the Pulitzer). And his 
faith in cold fusion runs undiminshed with his Infinite Energy Magazine 
and CFT Laboratory. 

Are these incompetancies by 'powers that be' bred of puffed up 
authorithy, self satisfied egos, blind sided ignorance, sloppy 
diligence, and self serving expediencies that causes these terrible 
mistakes yet being too 'proud' to admit them or recognize them cleanly? 
I've seen too much of that going on to dismiss it as a rare anomaly in 
behavior. It becomes a double tragedy when pursuit of science becomes 
involved. There has certainly been too much costs attached to 
overcoming these "lapses".  

-Akira-




   

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 10:16:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02917;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:13:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:13:02 -0800
Message-ID: <34A803F4.2F2D keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:11:32 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: World changes from ZPE
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"pM7_83.0.Hj.iW-fq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14298
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Bob et al!

Bob Paddock wrote;
> I read some thing long ago that claimed the Department of
> Defense did a study on what would happen if a Free Energy
> device did come to market.  The conclusion was that 18
> million people would be out of work with in the first month.

That would make for an interesting article....you know, it just hit me, a
few years back, at a conference, I think it was an ISNE, someone
mentioned a study, quite detailed, that was published by the US Coast
Guard or something similar....not a source you'd normally associate with
free energy...

This study was a projection of what life would be like in the year 2010
or so.  It clearly stated that we would all be using ZPE based devices
for standalone power generation.  The person talking about it (I think it
was Patrick Bailey) from the podium was very, very insistent that this
book or document be ordered for study.  I believe it was to show that
something was up in government circles.

Quite possibly this document is now on the InterNet (or should be).  I
had written it in my notes and posted it on the BBS email.  Have to look
up the notes unless someone out there remembers the name of the
document.....will also send an email to Patrick and see if he might
recall who put it together and the name.

A list of all the permutations that would occur in society and
governments as a direct result of the implementation of free energy
devices would be quite a piece of work.  (Would also make a 
GREAT VIDEO DOCUMENTARY)  

Especially how it would affect current power generation facilities.  No 
more reliance on oil or gasoline, so as Puthoff said he was told, the oil 
would now be applied to pharmaceuticals, plastics and value added 
materials.

Anyway, maybe someone will come up with the title, I'll post it if found.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 10:32:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04956;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:28:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:28:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <530e5ae8.34a7eaec aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:24:42 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Where to look for free energy
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"iNJ-P2.0.JD1.ok-fq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14299
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/25/97 2:42:37 AM, you wrote:

<<>5590031 : System for converting electromagnetic radiation energy
>to electrical energy
>
>Mead, Jr.; Franklin B., Lancaster, CA 93535
>Nachamkin; Jack, Poway, CA 92064

could this be the same Franklin Mead who is replicating the
T.T.Brown experiments at Philips AFB?>>

Yes, it is.  As for the replication, I think it was a report done by Talley of
Veritay Technology for Phillips.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 10:52:53 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11954;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:48:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:48:18 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <c6503a6d.34a7eef5 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:41:55 EST
To: jdecker keelynet.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  World changes from ZPE
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"3lWmf2.0.bw2.l1_fq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14300
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The book for the Coast Guard study that includes discussion of ZPE is by John
Petersen, "The Road to 2015," Waite Group Press, Corte Madera, Calif. 

ISBN 1-878739-85-9

Hal Puthoff 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 11:03:08 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14857;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:01:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:01:30 -0800
Message-ID: <34A80F4E.4431 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:59:58 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Puthoff aol.com
CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Book info
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"R48hg3.0.od3.7E_fq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14301
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Hal!

Thanks for the info on the book, 'The Road to 2015'...I think I'll post 
it on the KeelyNet website so it'll be there for future reference.

Called the Waite Group Press out in Corte Madera, CA...415-924-2575 at 
1PM today.

Got a recording, they are closed for the holiday season, will call back 
after the 1st when business hours resume.  Will post ordering details and 
price.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 11:10:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16370;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:07:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:07:47 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712291907.NAA04519 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
In-Reply-To: <34A77DFF.3EE6450A mail.pc.centuryinter.net> from "Taylor J. Smith" at "Dec 29, 97 05:39:59 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:07:36 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"8PZAO2.0.T_3.0K_fq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14302
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jack Smith wrote:
> Murray's point was that it is useless to 
> educate members of the underclass becuase of 
> their lack of genetic potential.  The best
> that we can do is to keep them entertained
> or imprisoned.

The best defense against this attribution is that no one can actually
find a quote in Murray's book where he ever asserts such a thing.

What is pointless is trying to discuss the scientific evidence pro or
con in such an atmosphere of hysterical over-reaction.


-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 13:25:40 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00251;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:14:09 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:14:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:10:49 -0500 (EST)
From: "Soltis James Dr." <soltis server.uwindsor.ca>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: new electron correlations
In-Reply-To: <199712291907.NAA04519 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.971229160616.6075A-100000 server.uwindsor.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"SpTxI1.0.r3.VA1gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14303
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Below is an excellent URL re past/future of electrons in metals
 http://www.newscientist.com/nsplus/insight/future/future.html
                         jim soltis
                      -- I can grow hair on trig functions--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 13:33:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13519;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:29:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:29:19 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cdc2654676 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:06 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re:  Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"FlFsH3.0.7J3.iO1gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14305
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 12:09 PM 12/29/97, Puthoff wrote:
>In a message dated 12/24/97 11:32:33 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote:
>
><<(1)  To obtain energy from ZPE, photons whizzing by, all we need is to find
>a way to absorb them.  Therefore, a sufficiently insulated piece of lead,
>for example, being able to absorb energy in the low end of the ZPE
>spectrum, should spontaneously continue to rise in temperature.>>
>
>Not so, unfortunately.  It can be shown that absorption of ZPE by dipoles
>(which is what absorption is) yields a re-emission without a change in spatial
>or spectral distribution.  (See, e.g., H. E. Puthoff, "Source of vacuum
>electromagnetic zero-point energy," Phys Rev A, vol 40, p. 4857, 1989.)
>Therefore, unlike absorption of photons in the usual sense, ZPE absorption/re-
>emission is an equilibrium process.


OK, so the Casimir plates must reflect (not absorb) the ZPE then, thus
creating the ZPE partial void in the gap.

If so, I wonder if it is possible to measure ZPE, or propell a spacecraft,
with a windvane of sorts:


            ^  Singly reflected ray
            |
            |
            |
            |   /
  ---------->  / <----------
              /  |
             /   |
             \   |
              \  |
               \ ------------->  Doubly reflected ray
                \


Every ray coming from the front is reflected only once, while many rays
coming from the rear are reflected twice.   Very small thrust due to long
wavelengths, but not zero?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 13:33:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13499;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:29:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:29:15 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cdb55a3621 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:02 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Resent-Message-ID: <"RNlxE.0.hI3.fO1gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14304
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 2:34 AM 12/29/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>
>I think so. To start with the Hydrino formation reaction is actually
>*short* of the energy required for the potassium reaction.
>I.e.  H -> Hy yields 27.1968 eV, but
>
>      2 K+ -> K + K++ requires 27.2843 eV.


OK, so the deficit is actually 0.0875 eV.


>
>So it appears to me that it is necessary to find this energy
>difference somewhere before the reaction can happen.
>Alternately, energy levels of K+, K, and K++ may need to be found that
>have either "exactly" the right difference, or a very slight excess.
>This may mean starting off with an excited K+ ion(s), and also ending
>up with excited products. If this turns out to be possible, then
>exciting the K+ ions with light of exactly the right frequency, could
>greatly enhance the reaction rate.


This occurred to me.  However, there is no record of BLP exciting the K.
The requirements are now (1) multibody H + K+ + K+ collison (exceedinglly
rare due to low number of K+ species) (2) Proper combination of
pre-excitement of the 3 bodies (thus greatly reducing the probability even
further) (3) the excitation of the K+ must occur *after* it is ionized and
(4) the excitation frequency is provided by either the reaction itself or
from the glow of the filiment used in the BLP cell to heat the KNO3, or
possibly the pre-excitation occurs from the kinetic energy of potassium
thermal collisions which still would provide only a small percentage of
catalytic species.  Considering all 4 requirements, this is really getting
wayyyyy out there on tail of the standard curve!  Just does not seem not
credible, as applied to BLP.



>If this method should work, then it would appear likely that the
>number of possible catalysts could be greatly increased, simply by
>finding the correct frequency light with which to irradiate the
>reaction.

Yes.  Such pre-excitation might also occur from thermal kinetics, so
temperature may be important also, true?   The number of catalyst
candidates is also greatly increased by looking at the candidates that
don't require pre-excitation, and also increased by considering molecular
catalysts, which might give much better results.


>One might even consider a strong white light to start with,
>and check for absorption bands when the energy production is at its
>peak (as an investigative tool).

Good idea.

>
>This brings to mind Stanley Meyer's claim that he can improve his
>production with light of a certain frequency.
>

I wonder if this is related to the natural fundamental vibration
frequencies of the H2O molecule.  These are given in the CRC Handbook in
units of cm-1:

Symmetric stretch:     3657
Bend:                  1595
Antisymmetric stretch: 3756

I know photoelectrolysis received a lot of attention from oil companies a
while back.  Don't know if anything workable came of all that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 13:56:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03907;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:48:00 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:48:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <a26a9cf0.34a81891 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:39:26 EST
To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Where to look for free energy
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"NPpsn1.0.xy.Dg1gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14306
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/29/97 9:32:53 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote:

<<OK, so the Casimir plates must reflect (not absorb) the ZPE then, thus
creating the ZPE partial void in the gap.>>

Right!

<<If so, I wonder if it is possible to measure ZPE, or propell a spacecraft,
with a windvane of sorts:>>

Have never yet come up with an asymmetrically reflecting set of boundaries.
ZPE "solar sail" or "ZPE dioed," 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 13:58:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03948;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:48:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:48:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <82803571.34a81953 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:42:40 EST
To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Where to look for free energy (cont)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1CxdA1.0.Zz.Og1gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14307
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/29/97 9:32:53 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote:

<<OK, so the Casimir plates must reflect (not absorb) the ZPE then, thus
creating the ZPE partial void in the gap.

If so, I wonder if it is possible to measure ZPE, or propell a spacecraft,
with a windvane of sorts:
>>

or "ZPE diode," go for it.  But so far, no cigars.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 14:51:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12364;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:43:12 -0800 (PST)
From: ehammond pacbell.net
Message-ID: <34A9794A.725A pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:44:26 -0800
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712290647.AAA28872 mirage.skypoint.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"5L8HB3.0.113.zT2gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14308
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

If everybody used Macs there would be no information underclass. Only 
the continued use of Unix creates a elite.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 15:07:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03045;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:02:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:02:50 -0800
Message-ID: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:01:16 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Appliance Electrical Requirements
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"zRlx6.0.Gl.Nm2gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14309
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Frank, Stefan, et al!

Stefan Hartmann reported a conversation with Greg Watson saying;

>> He told me, that he does not want to hurt the current power companies
>> and thus to put many people out of work and so his new company 
>> deceided to build a "remote area power generator" for 3rd world 
>> applications, there where poor people are off the grid anyway and 
>> needed power to cook lunch and heat their homes.

Frank C. Earl wrote (with regard to Greg Watson protecting the power 
companies);

> Um, do any of you all realize how silly that is?  Not the delivery
> of 1kW units to third world countries, the concern for the power
> companies.  I can assure you that the following things will happen:
>
>    1) Someone will invariably obtain a dozen or so of
>       the devices for their home use.  Unless the RMOG based unit
>       is largish, the thing can be awfully damn useful in powering
>       most if not all the AC powered devices in a house (1kW is
>       in general, sufficient to power things like TV's, computers,
>       etc.)

A file about appliance power requirements is available to assist in 
determining just how much electrical energy would be needed to run a 
modern home, if you are interested;

             http://www.keelynet.com/energy/offgrid.txt

That is what many I know envision, a power supply inside each device we 
buy, so that it runs ANYWHERE without need of wires or outside sources. 
One researcher calls his version a 'perpetual battery' as it uses a tuned 
circuit with a short antenna, sealed in epoxy.  Forget about massive 50KW 
units because it is the same old tune, I prefer to simplify and reduce.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 16:30:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24968;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:25:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:25:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712300024.SAA11569 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:25:08 (-050
Subject: Re: [off-topic, hey Rich] "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <01bd13be$ed994200$LocalHost default>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"sQ5QL2.0.166.K-3gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14310
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Fred,

> From:          "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
> Date:          Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:32:18 -0700

> >Am I mistaken, or is Rich possibly familiar with superstring theory, 
> >which (from what I have read)  appears to accept the possibility of an 
> >infinite number of parallel time-lines as an outcome of it's math?
> 
> Could you elaborate on that a bit, Dean? Say in
> 25 words or less?   :-)

Hmm.  (1 word)  Professor Michio Kaku says that 10 or 26 dimensions, 
producing an infinite number of parallel time-lines, are required for the 
superstring theory he co-developed. (24 words)

[from "Hyperspace" and other publications plus radio interviews by Michio 
Kaku, Professor of theoretical physics, City University of New York]
-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 16:35:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25337;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:29:35 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:29:35 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34A8402C.3F716637 ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:28:28 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712290647.AAA28872 mirage.skypoint.com> <34A9794A.725A@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Q9XG3.0.oB6.i14gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14311
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

ehammond pacbell.net wrote:

> If everybody used Macs there would be no information underclass. Only
> the continued use of Unix creates a elite.

Why stop with just that car bomb?  Why not also debate the other
"black-and-white" topics like abortion, gun control, party politics,
religion, etc.  8^)  

That argument has been chased around the office for 10+ years now and
always boils down to personal preferences and application specifics in
the end.  I doubt you will ever find consensus, especially from those of
us that "don't need no cartoon interface to run a 'puter."  8^) 

Just having some fun with you now, don't get your mouse cord in a
bundle.  Apple will likely go bankrupt or disappear in a merger in the
next 2-4 years anyway so what is the point arguing?  Unix isn't too far
behind either so don't feel picked on.  The industry is moving toward
standardization and cross platform compatibility.  It's become too
expensive in the world economy to maintain custom product lines and
code.  Programmers are just not supporting the fringe elements anymore,
and lets face it, a computer is an expensive paper weight if you don't
have applications that run on it.

Apple is soliciting funds from Microsoft to buy time.  HP is getting in
bed with Intel.  Digital is now a non-combatant.  SGI gobbled up Cray
and now is openly declaring their new focus to be high bandwidth network
and web servers.  Sun is integrating PC components in their next
generation systems and is dancing with Microsoft over developing a cross
platform compatible OS.  Motorola killed the Mac clone group and is
strengthening relations with IBM.  IBM is shedding non-PC business
groups like a molting deer.

Doesn't take a graphically realistic onscreen calculator to see where
things are going.  8^)

Just my opinions and observations, whatever they are worth.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 17:05:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29217;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:59:05 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:59:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A84666.AC6A86E5 compassnet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:55:03 -0600
From: "R. R. Stiffler" <stiffler compassnet.com>
Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: bx196 freenet.uchsc.EDU
Subject: Re: BAD SMOT difficulty
References: <199712290734.AAA25499 freenet.uchsc.EDU> <34A776A9.6C53@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"nsrlS.0.L87.NT4gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14312
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>   1)  Return the money with a note of apology
>   2)  Mail the failed units and include a suggestion sheet for how to
>       best adjust the unit
>
> If they don't work right out of the box, well, DUH!  That's like
> expecting a working overunity circuit that will change the world
> available at your local WalMart.  Reality check clearly called for.
>

With all the talk of MIB's, Uncle, the big boys etc., one must consider that
far to much SMOT info already exists out there for someone who really puts
his/her mind to it can prove or disprove.

Really show concern when info starts to disappear from KeelyNet, JNL Labs
etc. When this starts to have you all can be sure Greg was honest and they
got to him. If this does not happen, then one can only think that anyone of
the OU inventors sicknesses overcame him (did not work).

If he made a mistake (boy do I have a couple of them) then admit it and move
on, otherwise it will eat at him for the rest of his inventors useless life.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 17:27:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29803;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:21:51 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:21:51 -0800
Message-ID: <34A8686D.2E42 keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:20:13 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: stiffler compassnet.com
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Paranoia & Suppression
References: <199712290734.AAA25499 freenet.uchsc.EDU> <34A776A9.6C53@keelynet.com> <34A84666.AC6A86E5@compassnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"gfeX7.0.UH7.io4gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14313
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts!

R.R. Stiffler wrote;
> Really show concern when info starts to disappear from KeelyNet, JNL 
> Labs etc......

Thanks for the concerns, however, on the InterNet, I have noted many 
events which are appear to be odd, but are mostly attributable to just 
lost files or equipment failure.

For instance, oftimes I cannot access some URLs, but wait an hour or a 
day to try again and it works fine.  Same for some files.  What was odd 
about the Searl3 file, it just disappeared from the server.  There is a 
PROBABILITY, more than a possibility, that I converted it from a .txt 
file to an .htm file and failed to upload the .htm version, though there 
was no .txt version on the site.  There is also the probability that I 
put it in the wrong directory.

In all the years I've been involved in the alt/science arena, I've never 
encountered any attempts at repression.  Probably because I and my 
associates never represented what would constitute a threat...<g>.
...though I think there is much more noise than signal when it comes to 
paranoia.  In fact, was offered a job by two DIA guys (Thompson was 
one's name) back around 1987, turned it down cause they wanted me to go 
to conferences, collect info and translate to terms they could 
understand.  Had to all remain secret. Forget that.

Some people who claim to have been harassed turn out to be their own 
worst enemies, failing to take care of the business of life and using 
harassment, suppression or threats as their excuse.

Elvis said it best, 'take care of bi'ness', too easy to get so hung up on 
this stuff that we neglect the responsibilities that life, family and 
friends call for.

As I get older, it is frustrating to not see a working overunity or 
gravity control device available for purchase, as a working unit, as a 
kit or as plans that will work when built to spec.  After some 30 years, 
you'd think something would have turned up by now if we aren't all 
chasing our tails or dreams.

Wonder what ever happend to Wingate Lambertsen (out in Florida) and his 
WIN cells that used Casimir spaced plates separated by a silicone-like 
crystal bearing dopant?  He claimed to be able to run banks of 1KW sodium 
lamps.  Said he was about to get a patent too.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 17:44:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01614;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:43:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:43:16 -0800
Message-ID: <34A85D77.55A9 aeneas.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:33:27 -0600
From: Mark Mansfield <mmans aeneas.net>
Reply-To: mmans aeneas.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
References: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Dt6Ex.0.xO.o65gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14314
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:
> That is what many I know envision, a power supply inside each device we
> buy, so that it runs ANYWHERE without need of wires or outside sources.

Hi Jerry,
That's one hell of a good idea! Makes more sense than a central power
unit. 

> One researcher calls his version a 'perpetual battery' as it uses a tuned
> circuit with a short antenna, sealed in epoxy.  Forget about massive 50KW
> units because it is the same old tune, I prefer to simplify and reduce.

What is the epoxy glob called and where can I find info on it?
Is it a VTA device?
Thanks and Happy Holidays,
Mark

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 18:34:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13560;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:31:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:31:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: joanneh POP3.ij.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: joanne <joanneh ij.net>
Subject: Re: Paranoia & Suppression
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:27:53 -0500
Message-Id: <02275385874106 ij.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"gRmt53.0.oJ3.kp5gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14315
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hello,

I always wondered about this, and Jerry Decker's post brought it back up. I
am pretty familiar with the o/u stuff, and whats on the net, and have been
doing research myself for two years. There are designs dealing with o/u that
go way back, and it seems we have identified the exact way to do this (o/u).
Whether it be tapping back emf, or using magnetic gates, it seems to me that
there should be devices everywhere by now. But there is not, and I cannot
attribute this to suppression, as I have seen the patents that were granted
for some of these. Besides, some of these devices are so easy anybody could
make them. The info is readily available to anyone who can get on the net. 
        For the record, I firmly believe overunity is an achievable goal,
and believe it has been achieved many times, but where are the simple
devices we can build or buy to prove it exists? This next step just may be
what we need to achieve a paradigm shift , to where o/u is not ridiculed,
but accepted as fact. Then the whole world can reap the benefits. 


Best Regards,
Dave Edwards
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 19:45:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26286;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:40:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:40:59 -0800
Message-ID: <34A887CF.66BF keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:34:07 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mmans aeneas.net
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
References: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com> <34A85D77.55A9@aeneas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Jq5bj.0.YQ6.9r6gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14316
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Mark et al!

Jerry Decker wrote;
> One researcher calls his version a 'perpetual battery' as it uses a 
> tuned circuit with a short antenna, sealed in epoxy.  Forget about 
> massive 50KW units because it is the same old tune, I prefer to 
> simplify and reduce.

Mark Mansfield wrote;
>> What is the epoxy glob called and where can I find info on it?
>> Is it a VTA device?

This is what I can tell you (and I hope it doesn't come back on me), but 
I am not allowed to give the name or location.  The people involved are 
not yet ready to go public.  I know it is 'just another story', but there 
are so many interesting points to it. Note: I have not seen this device, 
it's only been emails and voice.  OK, now the caveat is out, here is what 
I CAN relate;

Question : If I had the circuit and component list and built the         
           device, would it work?
Answer   : NO.
Question : Why not?
Answer   : Each component, transistor, diode, inductor, capacitor in this 
           circuit has specific operating parameters.  A range of 
           response that is critical to the circuit stability.  Out of   
           50 off-the-shelf transistors, perhaps ONE would fulfill the 
           parameters. Additionally, the component LAYOUT on the board is 
           critical.
Question : What is the source of the energy, ZPE, cosmic waves, what?
Answer   : We understand only about 60% of this circuit and what is
           happening.  There is a frequency which we tap with a small 
           antenna embedded with the circuit in epoxy.
Question : What kind of power can you generate?
Answer   : One suitcase size prototype could source 50KW.  We are working 
           on a MATCHBOX sized unit that will provide a continuous 
           30Watts.  It requires 12VDC to kick start it and an occasional 
           pulse to keep it running, which can come from the circuit once 
           in operation.
Question : So, this kickstart opens some kind of channel, corridor or 
           vortex to help extract the energy?
Answer   : As we understand it, the device, no matter what size, fails to 
           start unless you kickstart it with the maximum power you will 
           be extracting once operational.  That means you have to 
           provide a 50KW kickstart to get the suitcase size unit 
           working.  Much like a fluorescent tube, a trickle pulse 
           maintains the energy flow once kickstarted.
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 19:55:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28507;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:52:45 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:52:45 -0800
Message-ID: <34A88BCC.795D keelynet.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:51:08 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mmans aeneas.net
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
References: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com> <34A85D77.55A9@aeneas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"W1Ve5.0.Lz6.B07gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14317
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Mark et al!

Some other points that were discussed as possibilities to make a more 
reliable circuit because;

The device sometimes 'dies' or quenches itself for some odd reason.  

Current thinking is it is either;

  1)  a loss of tuning to the power frequency OR
  2)  a lessening or intensification of the available ambient energy 
      (aether/ZPE/cosmic frequency/pink noise as with Moray) that could 
      swamp the circuit or blow out components (and this has happened 
      also).

Since this mystery tunable power supply (aether/ZPE/cosmic frequency) 
seems to have variations (witness Lambertsen in his WIN Cells saying the 
ZPE peaks would shatter tungsten filaments, which is why he used sodium 
(plasma) lamps to absorb the variations), would it not be possible to 
come up with a PILOT circuit which would monitor ZPE intensifications and 
rapidly correct the circuit tap so that this additional energy could be 
quenched electronically (sounds like the HP/Westinghouse O/U circuit 
claims)?

The quenching could also be a result of de-tuning of the circuit causing 
a loss of signal.  A PLL (phase locked loop) would precisely track any 
frequency variations to maintain a stable lock.

These points are well taken if the device has a tendency to quench 
themselves (which they do) or if a sudden increase of ambient energy 
burns out the load (as in Lambertsens case).  They are also quite 
possible to achieve with modern circuitry.

Needless to say, I have been urging these folks to share a simplified 
version of their circuit using the Shareware model as posted at;

                     http://www.keelynet.com/share.htm

In our last communication, I was told they are focussing on the 50KW 
version as a portable distributed energy system.  So, why not give US the 
30 Watt version!!!!!!...<g>....that'll work just fine....hope springs 
eternal....there is one other fellow who has a quadrature type system 
that would source up to 3KW (he claims) with Radio Shack components, he 
says it is SO EASY to do and everyone will kick themselves when they find 
it out.  Been working on him for about 5 years now.  I had hopes this 
last year, he would finally do the Shareware thing, but no seeegarrr yet!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 20:22:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03725;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:17:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:17:22 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 04:15:38 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34ae46fb.79150376 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530500b0cdb55a3621 [199.237.131.230]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0cdb55a3621 [199.237.131.230]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"HKVW31.0.0w.FN7gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14319
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:02 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>This occurred to me.  However, there is no record of BLP exciting the K.

Sorry, I wasn't sure whether that was what you meant when you spoke of
different light frequencies, or whether you were just talking about
using them to select better catalysts (rather than fine tuning the
catalysts). I agree that there is no record of BLP doing this, but
that doesn't necessarily mean that their method can't be improved
upon.

>The requirements are now (1) multibody H + K+ + K+ collison (exceedinglly
>rare due to low number of K+ species) 

Why would K+ necessarily be rare?

>(2) Proper combination of
>pre-excitement of the 3 bodies (thus greatly reducing the probability even
>further) 

As things stand, granted.

>(3) the excitation of the K+ must occur *after* it is ionized and

K+ from potassium salts is already ionized so this is not really a
limitation.

>(4) the excitation frequency is provided by either the reaction itself or
>from the glow of the filiment used in the BLP cell to heat the KNO3, or

Good point. Does anyone know the actual temperature of the filament?
I.e. does it glow with a bright white light, or just a dull
orange-red?

>possibly the pre-excitation occurs from the kinetic energy of potassium
>thermal collisions which still would provide only a small percentage of
>catalytic species.  

Given the table you provided, I would expect the K+ to require being
excited by fairly energetic photons, before it reached a level where
the energy levels are close enough together that several of them fall
within a band-width of .0875 eV. It would appear that that would put
the excitation energy right at the end of the Boltzmann distribution.

>Considering all 4 requirements, this is really getting
>wayyyyy out there on tail of the standard curve!  Just does not seem not
>credible, as applied to BLP.
>
>
>
>>If this method should work, then it would appear likely that the
>>number of possible catalysts could be greatly increased, simply by
>>finding the correct frequency light with which to irradiate the
>>reaction.
>
>Yes.  Such pre-excitation might also occur from thermal kinetics, so
>temperature may be important also, true?   The number of catalyst

See above.
>candidates is also greatly increased by looking at the candidates that
>don't require pre-excitation, and also increased by considering molecular
>catalysts, which might give much better results.

Granted. Some months back, I posted a message containing some
reactions with the water molecule. I have since slightly revised these
as follows:

*************************************************************
* H + H2O + 54.117 eV-> O++ + H2 +2e- + Hy + 108.8 eV       *
* H + 54.934 eV O++ -> O+++ + e- + Hy + 108.8 eV            *
* 2H + H2O + 109.05 eV -> O+++ + H2 +3e- + 2Hy + 217.6 eV   *
*************************************************************

And yes, I know that they produce free electrons. Maybe this is why
the oceans don't decompose into a cloud of steam and gas :).

Mills doesn't actually require that the resonant energy hole be 27.2
eV. Any multiple thereof is also acceptable. It just means that the
Hydrino shrinks by larger steps (or multiple steps at once if you
prefer).
(e.g. 109.05 eV is just 0.26 eV greater than 108.8 eV, which is 4 x
27.2 eV).

Note also that the "bend" wave number of 1595 cm^-1 that you provide
below equates to an energy of 0.198 eV (a possible match for the
missing 0.26 eV ? (Consider  that the precision in the 109.05 may be
overstated) :) Also both of the other wave numbers yield higher
energies (0.453 eV and 0.466 eV), either of which would leave a little
to spare. In fact with 3756 cm^-1 and 1595 cm^-1 combined, there would
be enough excess for the second reaction between the *'s above.
These energies all lie in the infra-red, and I seem to remember some
CF reports that reactions were stimulated by IR. Could this be
related?
It might be interesting to use a variable wavelength IR source, and
slowly sweep through the frequencies (tunable IR laser perhaps?)
[snip]
>I wonder if this is related to the natural fundamental vibration
>frequencies of the H2O molecule.  These are given in the CRC Handbook in
>units of cm-1:
>
>Symmetric stretch:     3657
>Bend:                  1595
>Antisymmetric stretch: 3756
>
>I know photoelectrolysis received a lot of attention from oil companies a
>while back.  Don't know if anything workable came of all that.

Was that related to production of hydrogen from sunlight?
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 20:22:47 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00744;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:18:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:18:22 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0ce25708081 [199.237.131.241]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:21:14 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Paranoia & Suppression
Resent-Message-ID: <"o8k842.0.NB.AO7gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14320
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:20 PM 12/29/97, Jerry wrote:
[snip]
>As I get older, it is frustrating to not see a working overunity or
>gravity control device available for purchase, as a working unit, as a
>kit or as plans that will work when built to spec.  After some 30 years,
>you'd think something would have turned up by now if we aren't all
>chasing our tails or dreams.
[snip]

It would be worth even a 300 year wait.  People struggled at least that
long for flight, but it was worth it, IMHO.  So, what's 30 years?  On the
bright side, there are many signs that a breakthrough is not far away.
Hopefully the internet, and even vortex, may make a big difference in
accelerating the process.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 20:24:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00314;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:16:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:16:10 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 04:15:21 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34a92d94.72646148 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530501b0cdc2654676 [199.237.131.230]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0cdc2654676 [199.237.131.230]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"v5JRu.0.g4.9M7gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14318
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:06 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>If so, I wonder if it is possible to measure ZPE, or propell a spacecraft,
>with a windvane of sorts:
>
>
>            ^  Singly reflected ray
>            |
>            |
>            |
>            |   /
>  ---------->  / <----------
>              /  |
>             /   |
>             \   |
>              \  |
>               \ ------------->  Doubly reflected ray
>                \
>
>
>Every ray coming from the front is reflected only once, while many rays
>coming from the rear are reflected twice.   Very small thrust due to long
>wavelengths, but not zero?
[snip]
Rays coming from above and below are also reflected on the outside,
but don't reach the inside. This compensates for the double reflection
on the inside.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 21:06:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08816;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:01:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712300501.VAA23386 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Can you also call Greg Watson , please ?
Cc: harti harti.com (Stefan Hartmann)
Resent-Message-ID: <"wQ0JZ3.0.d92.Q18gq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14321
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 12:13 AM 12/30/97 +0100, Stefan Hartmann wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have seen, that you also ordered a SMOT kit from Greg Watson.
>
>Please can you try to call him on the phone and ask him,
>what will happen to our orders ?
>Thanks !
>
>Here is his phone number:
>
>++61 8 8270 2737
>
>>From the USA the area code is:
>011-
>
>Please let me know via email what he will tell you.

Well I just called Greg and he is doing fine.  His computer was being
upgraded when the main CPU was found to be defective.  Greg says he will be
on-line in a couple of days with his web site updated to explain what has
happened since his last post.

He says that there is interest to mass produce his SMOT design for the
"executive toy" market.  Greg said other vortex and freenrg list members
have called and he said to check his web site for the updates, in a couple
of days.

Sounds good to me!

Best Regards,   Michael Randall

>Thanks a lot in advance !
>
>Regards, Stefan.
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
>email: harti harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com
>Use our automatic creditcard billing at: http://ccard.net
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 21:59:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17553;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:56:20 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:56:20 -0800
Message-Id: <199712300554.XAA21267 comp.uark.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Pons & Fleischmann
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:59:05 +0000
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman earthlink.net>
Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"QWeas3.0.-H4.2q8gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14322
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I was wondering... Does anyone have any schematics and detailed information on Pons & Fleischmann's experiments in 1989? Is there any URL or other source that would have this information? I would appreciate the indulgence...


Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Dec 29 22:25:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20619;
	Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:16:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:16:35 -0800
Message-ID: <34A891EB.7400 gorge.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:17:15 -0800
From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom gorge.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth
References: <199712300424.UAA01722 mx1.eskimo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"TUVad3.0.425.179gq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14323
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Joohn Logajan:

> Jack Smith wrote:
> > Murray's point was that it is useless to 
> > educate members of the underclass becuase of 
> > their lack of genetic potential.  The best
> > that we can do is to keep them entertained
> > or imprisoned.
> 
> The best defense against this attribution is that no one can actually
> find a quote in Murray's book where he ever asserts such a thing.
> 


Hear, Hear!

If memory serves, Murray's main points were that:

1. The best predictor of future income is IQ.

2. The best predictor of IQ is parental affluence. 
(Even adoptive parents of poor children.)

3. Misguided welfare, (AFDC) by rewarding single mothers, 
is institutionalizing low IQ into a permanent underclass.

4. Society's (American? Western? World?) emphasis on 

		WEALTH

as the most important factor in judging the "worth" of
a human being, (wealth, or income, being correlated to IQ)
causes the poor, and/or the less gifted, to feel worthless.

5. It is therefore the RESPONSIBILITY of the gifted (IQ)
to stop concentrating solely on wealth accumulation, and
work toward developing an honorable place in society for
 the less gifted.

While some of the conclusions in the book seem to lack 
adequate foundation, and should be openly discussed, 
I think the last point is the one which has caused all the 
extreme rhetoric. I requires everyone to take responsibility 
for his or her own actions, to do something no confiscatory tax,
or wealth transfer, or government program can do.

Tom Miller

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 01:05:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08017;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:01:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:01:26 -0800
Message-ID: <34A8D425.224D keelynet.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:59:49 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: mmans aeneas.net
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
References: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com> <34A85D77.55A9@aeneas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"W7rMe2.0.6z1.aXBgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14324
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Mark et al!

Just happened to be browsing the Quake compilation file and noticed 
something odd on the QUAKE2.ASC insert near the end of the file that 
seems to correlate with the aether/ZPE fluctuations mentioned in this 
same thread.

The following file was originally posted on the KeelyNet BBS on January 
30th, 1992 as QUAKE2.ASC.

    Originally from NEWS TRACK - December 1989 Vol 32 Number 12
    Communications of ACM [Association for Computing Machinary] 

HERE COMES THE SUN... Solar activity is at its peak from now through 
April 1990, and scientists are worried that the atmospheric effects will 
be powerful enough to cause major computer systems to crash. 

Solar storms and radiation-spewing sun flares are electrical and magnetic 
currents that can alter the Earth's magnetic field. Space-based computer 
systems can be damaged by such solar emissions, while ground-based 
computers are vulnerable to such dangers as electrical surges that can 
harm power grids. (Solar surges were recently blamed for wiping out
computer systems at the Toronto Stock Exchange.) Sun-watchers say 
threatening sunspots will remain extremely energetic until early spring 
before begining to slowly taper off into 1993. 
-----------------------------------------------------
What makes this interesting is the reference to electrical SURGES 
produced by solar and magnetic disturbances.  In these aether/ZPE energy 
tapping devices which appear to be subject to FLUCTUATIONS in the space 
energy field (whether it be aether/ZPE or some kind of frequency), this 
could be directly related if not the CAUSE of such surges that blew out 
Lambertsens tungsten filament light bulbs or the ZPE circuit, or even the 
HP/Westinghouse aperiodic O/U circuitry.  

Perhaps the surges are due to some kind of ripple in the aether or cosmic 
frequency that could be the CAUSE or maybe even the EFFECT of the surges?
More and more puzzling...seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 01:13:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02568;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:08:41 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:08:41 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0ce652c3b19 [199.237.131.244]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:10:42 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"_HArP.0.2e.MeBgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14325
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:15 PM 12/29/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>[snip]
>Rays coming from above and below are also reflected on the outside,
>but don't reach the inside. This compensates for the double reflection
>on the inside.

Right you are!

Well, let's stretch for some other concepts.

OK, a variation might be to use a pair of back to back concave lenses to
reflect sideways energy into focal points F1 and F2, and then divert with
mirrors there
to the rear of the craft.  The lateral rays would all be reflected back
laterallly due to symmetry.

Also, if we had a ZPE lens that should work:



   Cross Section of Top Half of
    Lens/Mirror Configuration


 --------->---|| <---------------
         ^   /||\   ^
         |  / || \  |
         | /  ||  \ |
         |/   ||   \|
 --->----\-<--||-->-/------<-----
        F1          F2



The idea is to use convex lens || to refract ZPE from both right and left
into focal points F1 and F2, and then use comparatively small mirrors to
reflect the condensed ZPE to the rear of the ship. This is difficult to
draw in characters.  the bottom beam just slightly misses the mirrors at F1
or F2, but is then diverted by the lens into the opposing focal point
mirror, and then to the rear of the craft.

There is refractory material up into the soft x-ray range.  Not sure what
could refract beyond that.  Finely layered material might be used to make a
Fresnal lens for x-rays?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 01:45:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03769;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:42:59 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:42:59 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530503b0ce6e8e6f98 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:45:04 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Resent-Message-ID: <"JcZGo1.0.pw.X8Cgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14326
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 7:15 PM 12/29/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:32:02 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>This occurred to me.  However, there is no record of BLP exciting the K.
>
>Sorry, I wasn't sure whether that was what you meant when you spoke of
>different light frequencies, or whether you were just talking about
>using them to select better catalysts (rather than fine tuning the
>catalysts). I agree that there is no record of BLP doing this, but
>that doesn't necessarily mean that their method can't be improved
>upon.

Hopefully!


>
>>The requirements are now (1) multibody H + K+ + K+ collison (exceedinglly
>>rare due to low number of K+ species)
>
>Why would K+ necessarily be rare?


BLP is gas phase right?  One hit on a conductor and the K+ is gone.


>
>>(2) Proper combination of
>>pre-excitement of the 3 bodies (thus greatly reducing the probability even
>>further)
>
>As things stand, granted.
>
>>(3) the excitation of the K+ must occur *after* it is ionized and
>
>K+ from potassium salts is already ionized so this is not really a
>limitation.

I don't think so.   If your pre-condition is an excited state for the ion
then the exciting photon (or even thermal collision, with some probability)
has to arrive *after* the K is ionized to K+, right?  Is it likely to be
able to both ionize one electron and then set the next one to an excited
state all with one photon?


[snip]

>Some months back, I posted a message containing some
>reactions with the water molecule. I have since slightly revised these
>as follows:
>
>*************************************************************
>* H + H2O + 54.117 eV-> O++ + H2 +2e- + Hy + 108.8 eV       *
>* H + 54.934 eV O++ -> O+++ + e- + Hy + 108.8 eV            *
>* 2H + H2O + 109.05 eV -> O+++ + H2 +3e- + 2Hy + 217.6 eV   *
>*************************************************************
>
>And yes, I know that they produce free electrons. Maybe this is why
>the oceans don't decompose into a cloud of steam and gas :).

Where do you suggest the initial 54.117 eV or 54.934 eV or 109.05 eV come from?

I still like BrF and HBr as prospects.  I wonder if there have been any
anecdotes of the H in HBr disappearing with time, or H2 mixed with BrF?


[snip]
>>I know photoelectrolysis received a lot of attention from oil companies a
>>while back.  Don't know if anything workable came of all that.
>
>Was that related to production of hydrogen from sunlight?


Yes, I should have said photoelectrolysis of water.  Would have good
application  in desert areas near the sea.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 02:01:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12110;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:56:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:56:38 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530504b0ce738b9b92 [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:59:36 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Can you also call Greg Watson , please ?
Resent-Message-ID: <"bqqQa.0.8z2.LLCgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14327
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 9:01 PM 12/29/97, Michael Randall wrote:

>He says that there is interest to mass produce his SMOT design for the
>"executive toy" market.  Greg said other vortex and freenrg list members
>have called and he said to check his web site for the updates, in a couple
>of days.

I wonder if the interested party knows there is an senior patent to deal
with first?  Still in effect (renewed) last time I posted about it.  There
may be a widow who holds the patent.  I posted at length about the issues
of propriety, but no one seemed to take much notice.  For example:

In post "Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain?":

At 3:25 AM 5/31/97, Horace Heffner wrote:
>It appears it is a critical issue as to whether the renewal fees on the
>Hartman patent 4,215,330 have been paid up.  If so, then the intellectual
>property is not public domain, as the patent expires Jul.29, 2000.
>
>I say this primarily because of claim 12, an independent claim that appears
>to have a very broad coverage, especially of the things discussed here on
>vortex:
>
>"12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of
>tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each
>of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said
>rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the
>magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said
>tracks."
>
>Any two inventions falling within the same set of claims are the same
>invention.  To fall outside the scope of existing claims any new claims
>have to be proven non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 02:52:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06979;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:49:56 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:49:56 -0800 (PST)
From: TonyRusi <TonyRusi aol.com>
Message-ID: <da1787fd.34a8d174 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:48:18 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: sonic rocket?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1UgZ23.0.yi1.I7Dgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14328
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

500 psi huh? I was just looking at work done by leik myrabo in the dec 97
issue of Aerospace America, pg 57, at the HELS test facility on the white
sands missile range. Leik is building laser propelled lightcraft. 14 cm
diameter, 60 grams, 10-kw pulsed CO2 laser (1-kj pulses, 30 microsec
duration,   10 Hz) impulse up to 200 Newtons per megawatt. Horizontal
flights to 130 feet, 2g accelerations, spin stabilized freeflights to 3
meters, flights to 1 kilometer next year. That's ~24 in2   500 psi that's
12,000 lbs of thrust on something less than 6 inches in diameter. I think
we have a sonic rocket! 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 03:16:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08862;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:11:45 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:11:45 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A8F27E.7E22 keelynet.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:09:18 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: TonyRusi aol.com
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
References: <da1787fd.34a8d174 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OqLtf1.0.OA2.lRDgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14329
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Hi Tony et al!

Tony Rusi wrote;
> That's ~24 in2   500 psi that's 12,000 lbs of thrust on something less 
> than 6 inches in diameter. I think we have a sonic rocket!

My opinion is they just don't GET IT.  Brute force thrust and rocketry 
for flight is way past due for a change. Though as a railgun type of 
weapon, it still has definite possibilities.  

If money and effort is to be invested in flight and thrust, why not in 
field propulsion or ways to alter gravity flows?  

Create a gravity well in front of the craft or in the direction you want 
to go, so that the mass falls into it, (Hamels 'weight into speed').

If aether/zpF or gravity is an inflow into mass, redirect it away from 
the mass to make it lighter by reducing or eliminating that inflow.

The Farrow weight loss experiment indicates a mechanical spark gap 
triggering multiple coils (like the USC RF stimulated thrust producing 
device that was mysteriously withdrawn), go to 

                   http://www.keelynet.com/gravity.htm 

and look for Farrow (don't know the URL offhand).  Others include Searl 
and Hamel who used rotating magnets which produced a glowing ionized air 
mass causing the craft to fly off into space.

Keely used high intensity sound waves to demonstrate his flying machine 
in 1893 to the US Army. Keely also used a silver and platinum wire 
wrapped around heavy objects that when stimulated, could be made to 
increase or decrease weight.

Ed Leedskalnin in our time somehow moved huge stones without pulleys or 
hoists to build the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida.

Reports of Tesla's flying sled as well as his claim that if he could wrap 
a wire around the equator of the earth, he could move it out of its 
orbit...and on and on....clues abound for gravity control.....
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 03:59:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12096;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:57:17 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:57:17 -0800 (PST)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:56:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712301156.DAA10135 norway.it.earthlink.net>
X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Can you also call Greg Watson , please ?
Resent-Message-ID: <"7MZRJ3.0.vy2.R6Egq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14330
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 12:59 AM 12/30/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:

>I wonder if the interested party knows there is an senior patent to deal
>with first?  Still in effect (renewed) last time I posted about it.  There
>may be a widow who holds the patent.  I posted at length about the issues
>of propriety, but no one seemed to take much notice.  For example:
>
>In post "Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain?":

Yes, Greg mentioned your observations and his patent attorney also found
some patents in in other countries that could also interfere.  He seemed
confident that his new designs will work, without conflict of existing
intellectual property or as original claim(s).

Regards,  

Michael Randall 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 05:08:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15956;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:03:04 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:03:04 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34A8E0E0.73AC2013 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:54:08 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Geosas <Geosas aol.com>
CC: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish's experiment
References: <5735fa6.34a80699 aol.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------59DCA09651F0B68F63CCFCF0"
Resent-Message-ID: <"NSpoP3.0.Dv3.64Fgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14331
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------59DCA09651F0B68F63CCFCF0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Geosas wrote:
 
 "Jack  ...
 
 So it's a very tricky experiment, the main
 requirement being very solid foundations and
 distance from heavy (or any) traffic. ...

 Anyway, best of luck, and we look forward
 to hearing how you get on using various materials."
 
Hi George,

Thanks for the informative message.  I think I've
got a good base put together, and this is being done
in my home about 500 feet from the nearest road.
I'm currently trying to mount my laser so that it
hits the mirror just right.  It's a laser pointer
which I can clamp (or tape) to "on".  Holiday 
festivities, trips to museums, and end-of-the-year
business are slowing me down.  The first part
of the experimental program is to look at what
heating the lead balls does.  I'm attaching a file
on this subject for comment.

Jack Smith

--------------59DCA09651F0B68F63CCFCF0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="y"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="y"

 
I can heat the large lead balls with electic
bulbs or alcohol lamps while in the
"perpendicular" position.  During the heating 
phase, the body of the balance can be masked with
reflecting aluminum foil, separated from the body
by an air gap.  I can also add a styrafoam (or
other) insulating layer behind the foil.  When
I bring the large lead balls close to the small
lead balls, I can mask the remainder of the 
balance (minus windows for the small lead balls
and the mirror) with foil and insulation --
no air gap.  

Ross Tessien has mentioned that heating the balls
will infinitessimally increase the mass.  Do
I just use the heat capacity of lead, the mass of
a ball, and delta T to calculate the joules to
plug into KE = mc^2?  Perhaps Frederick Sparber
or Horace Heffner could take a shot at this
calculation.

What about the thermal expansion of the lead balls?
Creating a stop arrangement will be a nuisance.
Is there anything wrong with living with a
changing distance between the centers of the
big and small balls and determining what it is
by calculation?

I would appreciate potential errors being pointed
out to me.

Jack Smith

--------------59DCA09651F0B68F63CCFCF0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 05:48:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA32426;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:45:22 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 05:45:22 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Popagation.
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:42:18 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd1528$bf252680$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ohCNG.0.Ow7.lhFgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14332
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The one measured property of the Aether is Capacitance, eo
8.84E-12 coulombs/joule-meter, a length-only quantity.

If one visualizes the Aether (not the vacuum) as an infinite transmission
line in any given direction from a
point of origin of a disturbance (potential V):

o----  L1 --------L2---------L3---------L4---------L5----
            |         |         |             |        |
V input(t1) C1        C2        C3            C4       C5
            |         |         |             |        |
o---------------------------------------------------------

The displacement current I = C * dV/dt due to a disturbance at t1 will
create a charging of Capacitor C1 which creates
inductance L1. This circuit discharges into C2 creating
inductance L2, and so on. The velocity of propagation of
the disturbance will be (LC)^-1/2 meters/second.

In other words THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.

The rest are ENERGY PROPERTIES, E = CV^2 for a Photon
= 2*mc^2 for two particles made from such a photon .

ZPE floating around in there?    :-)

Regards,     Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 06:11:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02605;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:05:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:05:38 -0800
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34A8FFA9.8D41B20F ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:05:29 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Paranoia & Suppression
References: <199712290734.AAA25499 freenet.uchsc.EDU> <34A776A9.6C53@keelynet.com> <34A84666.AC6A86E5@compassnet.com> <34A8686D.2E42@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"3I_zd.0.de.n-Fgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14333
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jerry Decker wrote:
 
> Wonder what ever happend to Wingate Lambertsen (out in Florida) and his
> WIN cells that used Casimir spaced plates separated by a silicone-like
> crystal bearing dopant?  He claimed to be able to run banks of 1KW sodium
> lamps.  Said he was about to get a patent too.

Ditto.  Simple yet effective.  The best kind of product in my
experience.  

For lack of any concrete information I've started to research the
feasibility of the setup in the hope of rediscovering his insight.  Good
information on the piezoelectric effect is available but it is expensive
to obtain.  Almost too expensive for my casual interest I am afraid to
say.  If I find anything I will pass it along, but I have nothing to
report so far.


-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 06:17:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20799;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:14:38 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:14:38 -0800 (PST)
Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com )
Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Message-Id: <34A90189.2258641F ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:13:29 -0600
From: John Steck <johnste ecg.csg.mot.com>
Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
References: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com> <34A85D77.55A9@aeneas.net> <34A887CF.66BF@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"cqRTR2.0.l45.B7Ggq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14334
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:

> This is what I can tell you (and I hope it doesn't come back on me), but
> I am not allowed to give the name or location.  The people involved are
> not yet ready to go public.  

> Question : What kind of power can you generate?
> Answer   : One suitcase size prototype could source 50KW.  We are working
>            on a MATCHBOX sized unit that will provide a continuous
>            30Watts.  It requires 12VDC to kick start it and an occasional
>            pulse to keep it running, which can come from the circuit once
>            in operation.

Can probably get them an audience if and when they have their act
together.

-- 
John E. Steck 
Prototype Tooling
Motorola Inc.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 06:59:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08908;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:56:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:56:05 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
Message-ID: <4d1b112a.34a90b55 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:55:15 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
Subject: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"nogK8.0.6B2.4kGgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14335
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

F Sparber writes:

In other words THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.

....................................................
This is a very good comment and exactly what I have been saying.

In the old days radios operated only a low frequencies because the of the high
amount of stray capacitance associated with large components.  This
capaciatance exists between the component and the chasis.  Today IC's operate
a high frequeicies.  This high frequency is obtainable due to the low stray
capacitance associated with very tiny components.
......................................................
An atom is very tiny indead.  There exists a certain amount of stray
capacitance between this atom and the rest of the universe.  Mechanically this
capaciatace coresponds to minimun in the elastic limit of free space.
.........................................................
capacitance = 3.42 x 10^ -24 Farads
.....................................................
Placing this capacitance in the formula for resonant frequency yields the
Compton wavelegth of an electron.
..................................................................
Dividing the capaciatnce of a sphere 15 billion light years in diameter (the
radius of the univ) by the sq root of the number of particles in the universe
su rt(1.59 x 10^79) also yields 3.42 x 10^ -24 Farads
....................................................
Under certain conditions a change in the impediance of free space can be
produced by the interaction of the quantum of capacitance.  This is why there
is a matching transformer on the back to TV's..to prevent reflections.
Likewise a change in the impediance of free space produces reflections which
confine zero point energy.

impediance =Z =  sq root (L/C)

.........................................................
These reflections intern induce gravity by the force they impart.

Force = 2E/c

gravity = G(force)/ccr
......................................................

The universe is expanding.  Taking this rate of change into account and
showing that this change effects the quantum of capacitance at the local
level.  The math involves showing that the edge of the universe is speeding
away at light speed c.

rate = d(quantum of capacitance)/time 

I have by this method derived Planck's constant.
....................................
All of this stuff takes 1 MB to explain and is on my Book on a Disk.
..............................................
Capicatance is light like in nature.  The capcaictance produced locally by
remote regions of the universe effects local space immediately.  If
capacitance was time dependent the leading edges of square waves would travel
faster in coax cable.  Cable TV would not then be possible.  Remote regions of
the universe do effect local space.  Mach was correct but he failed to
identify capacitance as the medium.
................................................
Capacitance has local effects on lepton and Baryon fields as well as
electromagnetic fields.  The constants, however,  are different (differ by a
factor of 1,800)
.................................................

Frank Znidarsic

PS Good work F. Sardger keep going you are on to something.  Forget the ether
stray capacitance is not an ether it is an elastic limit.  There is a limit to
everything including the elasticity of free space.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 07:00:22 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09011;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:57:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:57:15 -0800
Message-ID: <34A936C0.7356 bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:00:32 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Dr. Puthoff in Playboy!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_xEL1.0.jC2.AlGgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14336
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts, Vorts!

Dr. Hal Puthoff's name appears on p. 176 of the January issue of Playboy
magazine.  Arthur C. Clarke mentions Puthoff, along with Haisch and
Rueda, in his short story "Wire", a speculative piece on the invention
of teleportation circa 1950.  The reference is to the HRP subluminal
space ship propulsion system which taps the ZPEv.  (A precursor to the
SHARP drive of _3001_?)

Also, Shannon Tweed has an exceptional pictorial (for a, er, mature
lady). <G>

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 07:13:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11792;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:09:47 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:09:47 -0800
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:04:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
Subject: Re transformer on TV : THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
In-Reply-To: <4d1b112a.34a90b55 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971230100237.21722A-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"3AlwU1.0.7u2.uwGgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14337
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Re:

	The reason for the transformer on the back of your TV is to match 
balanced to unbalanced lines.  It is called a Balun.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 07:38:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15104;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:32:54 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:32:54 -0800
Message-ID: <34A9068A.4A7E earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:34:50 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Britz: re Miles reply to Jones & Hansen/J. Phys. Chem.
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"iK2Jx.0.rh3.bGHgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14338
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Received: from kemi.aau.dk (kemi.aau.dk [130.225.22.6])
	by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA10022
	for <rmforall earthlink.net>; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 03:38:21 -0800 (PST)
Received: by kemi.aau.dk; id AA23836; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:38:24 +0100
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:38:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Dieter Britz <db kemi.aau.dk>
To: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Cc: rbrtbass pahrump.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, droege@fnal.gov,
        simonb post.queensu.ca, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, shkedi@bose.com,
        George Miley <g-miley uiuc.edu>, jaeger@eneco-usa.com,
        mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, Miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp
Subject: Re: Miles reply to Jones & Hansen/J. Phys. Chem.
In-Reply-To: <34A7122D.4C2A earthlink.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971230123248.26213A-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Rich Murray wrote:

(I am not sure why my mail server didn't want to include the text of Rich's
message, but never mind, it didn't).

The message says, in summary, that Miles wants his rebuttal printed
and objects to the fact that Steve Jones wants it changed first. I
find this hard to believe; Steve, coculd you please explain what is
happening? I understood that the rebuttal was in its final shape and
already in the printing process. A rebuttal cannot be critiqued by the
person whom it is rebutting, surely?

I think this affair haas dragged on far too long, and Miles should have
his say in JPC. I still believe that Steve Jones feels the same way.

-- Dieter Britz alias db kemi.aau.dk. Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 07:42:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15291;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:35:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:35:18 -0800
From: John Logajan <jlogajan skypoint.com>
Message-Id: <199712301535.JAA14499 mirage.skypoint.com>
Subject: Re: Re transformer on TV : THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971230100237.21722A-100000 college> from John Schnurer at "Dec 30, 97 10:04:11 am"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:35:13 -0600 (CST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ldq0G3.0.rk3.sIHgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14339
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:
> 	The reason for the transformer on the back of your TV is to match 
> balanced to unbalanced lines.  It is called a Balun.

It actually does both -- your twin line is 300 ohms while your coax is
75 ohms.

But I do have a question -- what does "balanced" really mean in this
context.  All circuits require a complete path, in the twin line case
an equal current flows down one wire and up the other -- in the coax
case an equal current flows down the center conductor and up the 
outer shielding...  same same.  Why do we call one "unbalanced"?

-- 
 - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
 - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
 -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 08:42:49 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29525;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:39:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:39:15 -0800
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:33:45 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re transformer on TV : THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
In-Reply-To: <199712301535.JAA14499 mirage.skypoint.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971230113017.17376E-100000 college>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"Mm9UV3.0.FD7.oEIgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14340
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	

	Balanced and unbalanced could also be described as differential 
and single ended.


On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, John Logajan wrote:

> John Schnurer wrote:
> > 	The reason for the transformer on the back of your TV is to match 
> > balanced to unbalanced lines.  It is called a Balun.
> 
> It actually does both -- your twin line is 300 ohms while your coax is
> 75 ohms.
> 
> But I do have a question -- what does "balanced" really mean in this
> context.  All circuits require a complete path, in the twin line case
> an equal current flows down one wire and up the other -- in the coax
> case an equal current flows down the center conductor and up the 
> outer shielding...  same same.

---------------------

  Why do we call one "unbalanced"?
> 

	Because	coax is not differential.


	LWCA  Long Wave Club of America ...2 meg cps and down!


	If the signal is above about 15K ... well then you can't HEAR it!

	Ha!

	Ya gotta Love natural radio .... even bees transmit!

> -- 
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com  --  612-633-8928 -
>  - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA -
>  -   WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan    -
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:01:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11880;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:58:46 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:58:46 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712301657.KAA02117 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:58:11 (-050
Subject: Re: Book info
CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <34A80F4E.4431 keelynet.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"bM3Hb3.0.Rv2.4XIgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14341
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jerry,

> Date:          Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:59:58 -0800
> From:          Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>

> Thanks for the info on the book, 'The Road to 2015'...I think I'll post 
> it on the KeelyNet website so it'll be there for future reference.

According to Amazon, 

                             The Road to 2015 : Profiles of the Future by
                             John L. Petersen Availability: This title is
                             out of print. 

                             Published by Waite Group Pr
                             Publication date: September 1994
                             ISBN: 1878739859
-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:01:19 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA32170;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:57:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:57:58 -0800
Message-Id: <199712301657.KAA02127 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:58:12 (-050
Subject: Re: TWA flt 800, William Donaldson, and Eugene Mallove
CC: aki ix.netcom.com
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <199712291727.LAA03801 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"5KEjh.0.Us7.KWIgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14342
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Akira,

> Date:          Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:27:03 -0600 (CST)
> From:          aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki )
 
> I do not think too many people took in Art Bell's Dec. 24th broadcast. 

Yup, managed to hear it (and most all other Bell shows, though some 
aren't worth the time <g>).

> The TWA Flight 800 was hit by an explosive external to the aircraft.

Yup.  Quite adequate evidence was provided, IMO.  Rather a lot of 
evidence for a high-level coverup, too.

> William Donaldson, an aviation consultant, attended the hearings as a 
> credentialed reporter representing Accracy in Media (FAX 
> 1-800-787-4567). He, along with those that attended the limited access 
> 'public hearings', were given copious data on the study that went into 
> the Flt 800 disaster.

Donaldson isn't only a consultant.  He's an experienced military aviation 
crash investigator -- now retired.

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:02:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11946;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <199712301658.KAA02146 dsm7.dsmnet.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <dtmiller dsm7.dsmnet.com>
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller dsmnet.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:58:12 (-050
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
Priority: normal
In-reply-to: <34A847DC.2230 keelynet.com>
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52)
Resent-Message-ID: <"0-oIs2.0.Yw2.UXIgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14343
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jerry,

> Date:          Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:01:16 -0800
> From:          Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>

I HATE your WWW site.  If I allow myself to get close to it I find all my 
time is gone (and I should be doing 'real' work).<g>

Keep up the good (and obviously time consuming) work. 

-- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF)

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:29:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03164;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:25:09 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:25:09 -0800
Message-ID: <34A9593B.6A1C bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:27:39 -0800
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20  (Win16; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re transformer on TV : THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.971230113017.17376E-100000 college>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"iu79U.0.Fn.ovIgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14344
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

John Schnurer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>         Balanced and unbalanced could also be described as differential
> and single ended.

Right.  A balanced circuit requires no earth reference and has a high
CMNRR (common mode noise rejection ratio).

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:31:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03381;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:26:50 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:26:50 -0800
Message-Id: <199712301726.LAA27313 comp.uark.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:31:24 +0000
From: "Mark A. Collins" <themacman earthlink.net>
Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com
In-Reply-To: <34A8D425.224D keelynet.com>
References: <34A8D425.224D keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MUSASHI 2.0.6
Resent-Message-ID: <"cYtvz2.0.lq.PxIgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14345
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

These kinds of "ripples" are just the beginning if ZPE reactors get too large... If large corporations get ahold of the technology and try to build one large plant, instead of millions of household devices, the "ripple" would be catastrophic... Since ZPE 
is responsible for time, gravity, and atomic dynamics... Well, we'd be in deep kemshi...


Jerry said in Re: Appliance Electrical Requirements at 30/Dec/1997 (Tue) 10:59:49.

Gnorts Mark et al!

Just happened to be browsing the Quake compilation file and noticed 
something odd on the QUAKE2.ASC insert near the end of the file that 
seems to correlate with the aether/ZPE fluctuations mentioned in this 
same thread.

The following file was originally posted on the KeelyNet BBS on January 
30th, 1992 as QUAKE2.ASC.

    Originally from NEWS TRACK - December 1989 Vol 32 Number 12
    Communications of ACM [Association for Computing Machinary] 

HERE COMES THE SUN... Solar activity is at its peak from now through 
April 1990, and scientists are worried that the atmospheric effects will 
be powerful enough to cause major computer systems to crash. 

Solar storms and radiation-spewing sun flares are electrical and magnetic 
currents that can alter the Earth's magnetic field. Space-based computer 
systems can be damaged by such solar emissions, while ground-based 
computers are vulnerable to such dangers as electrical surges that can 
harm power grids. (Solar surges were recently blamed for wiping out
computer systems at the Toronto Stock Exchange.) Sun-watchers say 
threatening sunspots will remain extremely energetic until early spring 
before begining to slowly taper off into 1993. 
-----------------------------------------------------
What makes this interesting is the reference to electrical SURGES 
produced by solar and magnetic disturbances.  In these aether/ZPE energy 
tapping devices which appear to be subject to FLUCTUATIONS in the space 
energy field (whether it be aether/ZPE or some kind of frequency), this 
could be directly related if not the CAUSE of such surges that blew out 
Lambertsens tungsten filament light bulbs or the ZPE circuit, or even the 
HP/Westinghouse aperiodic O/U circuitry.  

Perhaps the surges are due to some kind of ripple in the aether or cosmic 
frequency that could be the CAUSE or maybe even the EFFECT of the surges?
More and more puzzling...seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
                   Voice/FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187



Mark Anthony Collins
"The MAC Man"
themacman macsrule.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~themacman/

"Mac users often swear by their Macs, whereas PC users often swear at their PCs."

People are trying to do DTP and output on a PC because they're told they can and we usually can't handle their projects. Even PageMaker PC requires futzing on our end. We have a saying, "Only 2% of the output is on PC, but that causes 98% of our problems;
 98% of the output is done on Macs, but that accounts for only 
2% of our problems."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 09:45:17 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06579;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:41:55 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:41:55 -0800
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:41:09 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712301741.LAA17755 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki )
Subject: Pressurization of Pitot, ref: TWA 800 data
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: rvanspaa eisa.net.au
Resent-Message-ID: <"wXzME.0.fc1.X9Jgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14346
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

December 30, 1997

Robin,

Didn't want to get into a long winded explanation of how the altitude, 
and airspeed indicators were constructed and how it was affected 
suddenly by the an external explosion as indicated by the flight 
recorder. I felt this information was readily available in any 
encyclopedia to look up. However ---

Basically, the two instruments are pressure gauges with an open air 
tube (pitot) pointing out the front nose of an aircraft to pick up 
frontal and side (static) air pressure changes as the aircraft flew. 

In the altimeter portion, static air pressure is referenced against a 
standard sea level air pressure value to give the indicated altitude to 
the aircraft. So, as the aircraft climbs in altitude, the static 
pressure decreases and compared with the reference sea-level value, the 
altitude-meter indicates and the flight records a higher altitude.

In the airspeed indicator portion, the difference between the frontal 
pressure and the static pressure gives the measure of indicated 
airspeed as converted into knot speed. This is done by an established 
relationship of pressure difference to airspeed as calibrated under 
standard pressure and temperature.

Nothing complicated electronically or mechanically to become confused 
about the data recorded. Pitot tubes existed from the earlist days of 
aviation after 'seat of the pants' flying became instrumented.

So when an explosion occurs outside of the aircraft, the resulting 
sudden over-pressure of the explosion impacts the pressure values being 
picked up by the simple pitot tube and was recoded on the flight 
recorder as sudden altitude and speed changes. Also, the explosive 
'over pressure' blows a wind to the 'angle of attack' indicator 
("weather-vane") that gave it that sudden wind course change for a 
split second and then returns to the previous reading. All this 
information, and more, contained in that last segment of the flight 
recorder data that was lined out nor explained by the NTSC except 
perhaps as old unrelated data but contradicted by the recorded time 
code!

If the center tank explosion was the cause of the disaster, the power 
to the recorder and instruments would have been shut off instantly 
(because of the power line routing over the tank) and these data would 
not exist. Also it was calculated out that pressures released by a 
center tank explosion would not have been sufficient to affect the data 
in the way it was. This was even if the the tank explosion was given 
ten (10) times its calculated explosive pressure value.

Quite a discovery and analysis by William Donaldson!

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 10:37:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22096;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:31:28 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:31:28 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cee6203fba [199.237.131.230]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:33:09 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Can you also call Greg Watson , please ?
Resent-Message-ID: <"cTGqi1.0.2P5.ztJgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14347
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

At 3:56 AM 12/30/97, Michael Randall wrote:
>At 12:59 AM 12/30/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>I wonder if the interested party knows there is an senior patent to deal
>>with first?  Still in effect (renewed) last time I posted about it.  There
>>may be a widow who holds the patent.  I posted at length about the issues
>>of propriety, but no one seemed to take much notice.  For example:
>>
>>In post "Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain?":
>
>Yes, Greg mentioned your observations and his patent attorney also found
>some patents in in other countries that could also interfere.  He seemed
>confident that his new designs will work, without conflict of existing
>intellectual property or as original claim(s).
>
>Regards,
>
>Michael Randall


It sounds like there might be some confusion about interference vs.
infringement.  A patent might be issued without interference even if the
claims made are fully subordinate to prior claims, yet offer some new,
useful, and non-obvious improvement.  However, if that happens, when it
comes time to manufacture the item, permission must be obtained from the
superior patent holder, else the manufacture is an infringement on the
superior patents.  Also, manufacturing a system with a component that
infringes is an infringement.  Greg might get the happy word from his
attorney/agent that he can get a patent without infringemnent, and
eventually a patent might be issued. However, that has nothing to say about
whether the patent has any value without cooperation from the holders of
the superior patents.  In other words, the problem is not Greg's (unless
discovered prior to his selling rights), but it should be a concern for the
manufacturer.

Considering claim 12 of Hartman, 4,215,330:

>"12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of
>tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each
>of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said
>rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the
>magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said
>tracks."

It seems difficult to not to fall subordinate to this claim, especially in
a non-obvious manner.  Certainly the tracks element is there.  Magnets
outboard are there (they can't very well be inboard.)  The magnets could be
made opposing, but that produces (a) less effect thus less utility and (b)
is a fairly obvious adaptation (it may be necessary to demonstrate some
surprising effect.)  This is only one of many of the Hartman claims.

On the other hand, some manufacturers never bother to search patents before
producing a product.  They just see if they can get away with it.  If
caught, they figure they can work a royalty deal later.  Immoral and
beneath contempt, but that's how some people do business.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 11:04:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27420;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530502b0cef520c5c1 [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:02:37 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Can you also call Greg Watson , please ?
Resent-Message-ID: <"DgSMX3.0.Bi6.EJKgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14348
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I just wrote:

"It sounds like there might be some confusion about interference vs.
infringement.  A patent might be issued without interference even if the
claims made are fully subordinate to prior claims, yet offer some new,
useful, and non-obvious improvement.  However, if that happens, when it
comes time to manufacture the item, permission must be obtained from the
superior patent holder, else the manufacture is an infringement on the
superior patents.  Also, manufacturing a system with a component that
infringes is an infringement.  Greg might get the happy word from his
attorney/agent that he can get a patent without infringemnent, and
                                                *************
eventually a patent might be issued. However, that has nothing to say about
whether the patent has any value without cooperation from the holders of
the superior patents.  In other words, the problem is not Greg's (unless
discovered prior to his selling rights), but it should be a concern for the
manufacturer."

See how easy it is to screw up infringement vs interference! 8^)

The above "a patent without infringemnent" should read "a patent without
interference".

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 11:49:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03089;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:40:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:40:27 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <Puthoff aol.com>, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:35:58 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd155a$273b9ca0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"ne3ey1.0.9m.euKgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14349
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: FZNIDARSIC <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; Puthoff@aol.com
<Puthoff aol.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 7:46 AM
Subject: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.


>F Sparber writes:
>
>In other words THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY.
>
>....................................................
>This is a very good comment and exactly what I have been saying.
>
>In the old days radios operated only a low frequencies because the of the
high
>amount of stray capacitance associated with large components.  This
>capacitance exists between the component and the chassis.

Good point, Frank. Lots of stuff that can't get
in or out through the Ionosphere either.  :-)

  Today IC's operate
>a high frequeicies.  This high frequency is obtainable due to the low stray
>capacitance associated with very tiny components.
>......................................................
>An atom is very tiny indeed.  There exists a certain amount of stray
>capacitance between this atom and the rest of the universe.

I think that you will find the radius of the
circular (length-only) "Superstrings" that make up an atom (5A - Z) in each
nucleus to be about
4E-18 meters. (r = kq^2/w where w is the rest energy of the string-particle
(w is about 312 Mev or 5E-11 joules for each "quark").There are 1092 of
these "quarks" in a 92U-238 nucleus.

  Mechanically this
>capacitance coresponds to minimum in the elastic limit of free space.
>.........................................................
>capacitance = 3.42 x 10^ -24 Farads
>................................................
We disagree here, Frank. C = eo*2(pi)r for a
particle. For the average "quark":
 8.84E-12 * 2(pi)*4.6E-18 = 4.1E-29 Farads.
.....
>Placing this capacitance in the formula for resonant frequency yields the
>Compton wavelength of an electron.
>..................................................................
>Dividing the capacitance of a sphere 15 billion light years in diameter
(the
>radius of the univ) by the sq root of the number of particles in the
universe
>su rt(1.59 x 10^79) also yields 3.42 x 10^ -24 Farads

Nope, 8.84E-12 Farads/meter. Check it out.
>....................................................
>Under certain conditions a change in the impedance of free space can be
>produced by the interaction of the quantum of capacitance.

The presence of matter-matter fields modifys
C, that is why the photons coming from the sun are "Red Shifted". The
Mossbaur Effect was used
to measure this Red Shift effect on the Earth also.

  This is why there
>is a matching transformer on the back to TV's..to prevent reflections.

Same Church, Different Pew.    :-)

>Likewise a change in the impedance of free space produces reflections which
>confine zero point energy.

Are you really sure that the distant Galaxy you
saw in the East wasn't in the Northwest behind
Horace Heffner's woodshed?  :-)
>
>impediance =Z =  sq root (L/C)

Right, and for the Aether it is 120(pi)= 377 (ohms)
>
>.........................................................
>These reflections in turn induce gravity by the force they impart.

Negative on that one, Frank. Gravity is a relativistic magnetic effect from
q/t of the
charge circling at a gamma of E15 to E19 in
the string-particles giving currents down to
1E-18 amperes depending on the particle-atom.
>
>Force = 2E/c

Force = 1E-7 * (0.02583 ampere-meter)^2/kg^2
ie., (G/1E-7)^1/2

Best Regards,   Frederick
>
>The universe is expanding.  Taking this rate of change into account and
>showing that this change effects the quantum of capacitance at the local
>level.  The math involves showing that the edge of the universe is speeding
>away at light speed c.
>
>rate = d(quantum of capacitance)/time
>
>I have by this method derived Planck's constant.
>....................................
>All of this stuff takes 1 MB to explain and is on my Book on a Disk.
>..............................................
>Capicatance is light like in nature.  The capcaictance produced locally by
>remote regions of the universe effects local space immediately.  If
>capacitance was time dependent the leading edges of square waves would
travel
>faster in coax cable.  Cable TV would not then be possible.  Remote regions
of
>the universe do effect local space.  Mach was correct but he failed to
>identify capacitance as the medium.
>................................................
>Capacitance has local effects on lepton and Baryon fields as well as
>electromagnetic fields.  The constants, however,  are different (differ by
a
>factor of 1,800)
>.................................................
>
>Frank Znidarsic
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 12:02:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05687;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:52:02 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:52:02 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530503b0cefac81a1f [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:54:52 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Cavendish's experiment
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Message-ID: <"4cRkw3.0.kO1.V3Lgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14350
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 6:54 AM 12/30/97, Taylor J. Smith wrote:
>Geosas wrote:
>
> "Jack  ...
>
> So it's a very tricky experiment, the main
> requirement being very solid foundations and
> distance from heavy (or any) traffic. ...
>
> Anyway, best of luck, and we look forward
> to hearing how you get on using various materials."
>
>Hi George,
>
>Thanks for the informative message.  I think I've
>got a good base put together, and this is being done
>in my home about 500 feet from the nearest road.
>I'm currently trying to mount my laser so that it
>hits the mirror just right.  It's a laser pointer
>which I can clamp (or tape) to "on".  Holiday
>festivities, trips to museums, and end-of-the-year
>business are slowing me down.  The first part
>of the experimental program is to look at what
>heating the lead balls does.  I'm attaching a file
>on this subject for comment.
>
>Jack Smith
>
>
>I can heat the large lead balls with electic
>bulbs or alcohol lamps while in the
>"perpendicular" position.  During the heating
>phase, the body of the balance can be masked with
>reflecting aluminum foil, separated from the body
>by an air gap.  I can also add a styrafoam (or
>other) insulating layer behind the foil.


The insulating layer needs to be completely encased in foil and grounded.
That is because the EM force is 10^40 stronger than G.  Foam easily
generates and retains charge from friction.


>When
>I bring the large lead balls close to the small
>lead balls, I can mask the remainder of the
>balance (minus windows for the small lead balls
>and the mirror) with foil and insulation --
>no air gap.
>
>Ross Tessien has mentioned that heating the balls
>will infinitessimally increase the mass.  Do
>I just use the heat capacity of lead, the mass of
>a ball, and delta T to calculate the joules to
>plug into KE = mc^2?  Perhaps Frederick Sparber
>or Horace Heffner could take a shot at this
>calculation.


Yes - but I don't think you have to worry about it!

Let:

M = mass of ball in grams
m = change in mass due to increased kinetic energy
T = change in temperature in K or deg. C.
C = heat capacity of lead = 0.129 J/g-K
c = speed of light = 3x10^8 m/s
E = heat energy = M*C*T

m = E/c^2 = M*C*T/(9x10^16 m^2/s^2)

For convenience, stripping units from M and T:

m = (M*T) (0.129 J)/(9x10^16 m^2/s^2)
m = (M*T) (0.129 m^2 kg s^-2)/(9x10^16 m^2/s^2)
m = M*T*(1.433x10^-15 g)

So, for example, if we plug in unitless values M=1000 and T=200 we get:

m = (1000)(200)(1.433x10^-15 g) = 2.866x10^-10 g



>
>What about the thermal expansion of the lead balls?
>Creating a stop arrangement will be a nuisance.
>Is there anything wrong with living with a
>changing distance between the centers of the
>big and small balls and determining what it is
>by calculation?
>
>I would appreciate potential errors being pointed
>out to me.
>
>Jack Smith

One possible source of error in the above calculation is that the
temperature inside the ball may not be uniform.  This could also affect
things even if you have a stop.  It is therefore very important to heat the
balls uniformly with regard to the central (vertical) axis.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 14:58:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19776;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:51:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:51:30 -0800
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:51:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2 diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2 november
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Ref: Patent 4215330 & SMOT
In-Reply-To: <v01530504b0ce738b9b92 [199.237.131.230]>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.971230144024.18914A-100000 november>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"MW0OP.0.wq4.mhNgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14351
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


>snip 
> I wonder if the interested party knows there is an senior patent to deal
> with first?  Still in effect (renewed) last time I posted about it.  There
> may be a widow who holds the patent.  I posted at length about the issues
> of propriety, but no one seemed to take much notice. 
>snip
> >
> >"12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of
> >tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each
> >of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said
> >rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the
> >magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said
> >tracks."
> >
> >Any two inventions falling within the same set of claims are the same
> >invention.  To fall outside the scope of existing claims any new claims
> >have to be proven non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art.
> >Regards,
> >Horace Heffner

Horace, 
 'Whoa, non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art!'  While I cannot
even imagine who that might be (since WE'RE ALL waiting for the closed
looping of it), You probably picked the right group if there is one
skilled in the art at all. 
  I remember Greg mentioning this patent (even on his hm/page), and I
think the term "Blue-Hole" was the first difference stated. So, to refresh
myself I just went again to IBM's patent server to see.  I was first there
in april and didn't notice any 'Blue-Hole' effect. BUT,..
  Now, However you appear to be indeed CORRECT!. As the abstract calls for
the drop, in vortexian terms 'EXIT' to "be configured" in such a way as to
allow the BALL to fall away.  hummmm non-obvious?? hummmm

BOTH have Ball, incline & magnets (N/S), EXIT area (drop).
nothing 'unobvious' here.

4215330 has staggerd magnetics pulling left,right,left,right etc..
  (seems rickety going up the track l,r,l,r etc) but, nothing unobvious
here either. Actually, I wish I knew then what I know now about smot's and
I would approached my ffsmot in a different construction light.. Emil T.
Hartman (patent submitter) had a very strong design (no pins into balsa
wood).. I too, would have tried his sliding Bar design instead of my full
length ff-clamp design.

Smot had many different (updates/version i,ii,iii,iv etc..) and many
members here contributed to the (What we all WANT) the 'working device!' 
Did/Does he have a working prototype??  Did he take it to Washington?? Is
it still around anywhere "WORKING" ??

4215330 magnets were also closer and closer together going UP the ramp
which is the same to me (skilled-expert - nah) as the "V" ramps that
someone in the list suggest. The archives will give credit to that good
suggestion, but it would still be the same "obvious" design.

Under any NAME, the exit of 4215330 has a 'blue-hole' area as the final
magnetic assymbly has the drop prior to the increased pull of the magnets
ahead.. (both use gravity here).
But, so does a magnet that is lowered over a paper clip - when the clip
'jumps-up' to the magnet.

Now, since both seem obviously the SAME, I have to bite my teeth that this
might not be like the Hoppi Indians Feather dancers declaring THEY
invented flight ahead of the wright bros / micheal angelo /et al. et al..
(sigh)
We need to actually get OFF the GROUND first!  I hope others will continue
to make 'improvements' on 4215330 and smot and WHATEVER for all concerned-
which is the world- my latest thought, when/if I get the ffsmot to work
would be to try putting a coil at the drop area for the ball to fall
through (catching the inductance). Or the suggestion of the dual-track
inductance feed.

I have *NO DOUBT* that 4215330 WORKS! having built smot and ffsmot THEY
'WORK TOO' What to DO with them where to GO with them (sigh). We need
everybody helping out here.
I also like the persuit of a conical type ramp with the "V" increase, kind
of like a tunnel/funnel.  This to would be (to me, but I'm just tinkering
with it and *no expert*) the same obvious application.


Why Does that Paper-Clip jumping-up to a magnet excite us so?? 
Say, has anyone patented that? <grin>

Happy (another-OU-year bites the dust) New Year!
-=se=-

1998 WE (all) GET OFF THE GROUND!! 
'jumping with my feathers on, I'm learning I'm learning!' <g>
-=se=-

patent 4215330 is a GOOD one, indeed!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 16:23:41 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12139;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:08:52 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:08:52 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:07:15 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34aa8188.78830404 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530503b0ce6e8e6f98 [199.237.131.230]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530503b0ce6e8e6f98 [199.237.131.230]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"OY10l.0.az2.GqOgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14352
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:45:04 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>Why would K+ necessarily be rare?
>
>
>BLP is gas phase right?  One hit on a conductor and the K+ is gone.

At that moment perhaps, but it also gets regenerated elsewhere in the
container, or something else with a positive charge needs to replace
it. Right off hand I can't think of anything else in the container
that gives up its electrons as easily as potassium metal.
(presumably you are talking about it being reduced, and not just
adhering to the surface).
[snip]
>>K+ from potassium salts is already ionized so this is not really a
>>limitation.
>
>I don't think so.   If your pre-condition is an excited state for the ion
>then the exciting photon (or even thermal collision, with some probability)
>has to arrive *after* the K is ionized to K+, right?  Is it likely to be

No. The K is only generated through Hydrino creation (if at all), and
these are only a very small proportion of the K+ ions that are already
present due to the KNO3 (KNO2). All that is required, is that the K+
from the salt (of which there is plenty), be excited by a photon.

Of course the total amount of K+ remains constant on average, but it
isn't necessarily identically the same K (K+) atom (ion) taking part
in a closed cycle.

>able to both ionize one electron and then set the next one to an excited
>state all with one photon?
>
>
>[snip]
>
>>Some months back, I posted a message containing some
>>reactions with the water molecule. I have since slightly revised these
>>as follows:
>>
>>*************************************************************
>>* H + H2O + 54.117 eV-> O++ + H2 +2e- + Hy + 108.8 eV       *
>>* H + 54.934 eV O++ -> O+++ + e- + Hy + 108.8 eV            *
>>* 2H + H2O + 109.05 eV -> O+++ + H2 +3e- + 2Hy + 217.6 eV   *
>>*************************************************************
>>
>>And yes, I know that they produce free electrons. Maybe this is why
>>the oceans don't decompose into a cloud of steam and gas :).
>
>Where do you suggest the initial 54.117 eV or 54.934 eV or 109.05 eV come from?

Sorry, I have borrowed syntax used by Mills in his book. I should
perhaps have explained this.
The "initial" energy comes from the Hydrino formation (and a little
more or less as previously discussed) though I think I have made a
mistake in the energy released, by not subtracting the resonance
energy from the 108.8 eV. In which case the reactions should look
like:
*************************************************************
* H + H2O + 54.117 eV-> O++ + H2 +2e- + Hy + 54.4 eV        *
* H + 54.934 eV O++ -> O+++ + e- + Hy + 54.4 eV             *
* 2H + H2O + 109.05 eV -> O+++ + H2 +3e- + 2Hy + 108.8 eV   *
*************************************************************

At first glance, these reactions don't appear to produce much in the
way of energy. Note however, that the ionised species and free
electrons on the right between them, have potential energy equal to
that specified with "eV" on the left.
e.g. for the first equation, 54.117 eV is required to convert water
into O++ + H2, while the formation of the Hydrino produces 108.8 eV,
of which 54.4 eV fills the resonance "hole" (this is supposed to
"match" 54.117 eV), leaving 54.4 eV (actually 54.68 eV) over, which is
either radiated as a UV photon, of appears as kinetic energy of the
products, I'm not sure which or why. Because of this uncertainty, I'm
also not sure whether or not the 0.28 eV can simply be "tacked on" to
the 54.4 that remains after subtraction of the resonance energy.
For that matter, I'm not even sure if Mills would agree that a
reaction that doesn't require the full resonance energy would even be
possible (all his examples seem to need more, not less).
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 16:36:33 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01738;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:29:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:29:16 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Where to look for free energy
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:28:38 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34ab9116.82813544 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530502b0ce652c3b19 [199.237.131.244]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530502b0ce652c3b19 [199.237.131.244]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CEhsU2.0.4R.Q7Pgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14353
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:10:42 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>There is refractory material up into the soft x-ray range.  Not sure what
>could refract beyond that.  Finely layered material might be used to make a
>Fresnal lens for x-rays?
[snip]
I think I read in a copy of New Scientist a few moths ago, that they
are experimenting with bundles of tubes, or thick plates with holes
bored in them.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 17:07:27 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18973;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:57:07 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:57:07 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Pressurization of Pitot, ref: TWA 800 data
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:55:25 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34ae9611.84087910 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <199712301741.LAA17755 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <199712301741.LAA17755 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"tq-ou2.0.9e4.UXPgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14354
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:41:09 -0600 (CST), Akira Kawasaki  wrote:
[snip]
>Basically, the two instruments are pressure gauges with an open air 
>tube (pitot) pointing out the front nose of an aircraft to pick up 
>frontal and side (static) air pressure changes as the aircraft flew. 

A sideways pointing tube will develop a partial vacuum depending on
forward speed.

>
>In the altimeter portion, static air pressure is referenced against a 
>standard sea level air pressure value to give the indicated altitude to 
>the aircraft. So, as the aircraft climbs in altitude, the static 
>pressure decreases and compared with the reference sea-level value, the 
>altitude-meter indicates and the flight records a higher altitude.
>
>In the airspeed indicator portion, the difference between the frontal 
>pressure and the static pressure gives the measure of indicated 
>airspeed as converted into knot speed. This is done by an established 
>relationship of pressure difference to airspeed as calibrated under 
>standard pressure and temperature.

Presumably this means that the whole device is calibrated. (Except
that the calibration will vary with altitude).

>
>Nothing complicated electronically or mechanically to become confused 
>about the data recorded. Pitot tubes existed from the earlist days of 
>aviation after 'seat of the pants' flying became instrumented.

I still don't know what the word means (or what it is an abbreviation
of). :)

>
>So when an explosion occurs outside of the aircraft, the resulting 
>sudden over-pressure of the explosion impacts the pressure values being 
>picked up by the simple pitot tube and was recoded on the flight 
>recorder as sudden altitude and speed changes. Also, the explosive 
>'over pressure' blows a wind to the 'angle of attack' indicator 
>("weather-vane") that gave it that sudden wind course change for a 
>split second and then returns to the previous reading. All this 
>information, and more, contained in that last segment of the flight 
>recorder data that was lined out nor explained by the NTSC except 
>perhaps as old unrelated data but contradicted by the recorded time 
>code!

Thanks, now I understand.
>
>If the center tank explosion was the cause of the disaster, the power 
>to the recorder and instruments would have been shut off instantly 
>(because of the power line routing over the tank) and these data would 
>not exist. Also it was calculated out that pressures released by a 
>center tank explosion would not have been sufficient to affect the data 
>in the way it was. This was even if the the tank explosion was given 
>ten (10) times its calculated explosive pressure value.
>
>Quite a discovery and analysis by William Donaldson!
>
>-AK-
>
So someone was trying to shoot down a UFO and missed? :)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 19:27:58 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01682;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:23:44 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:23:44 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cf5c5dfb99 [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:26:45 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Resent-Message-ID: <"l2jou1.0.9Q._gRgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14355
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 3:07 PM 12/30/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 00:45:04 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
>[snip]
>>>Why would K+ necessarily be rare?
>>
>>
>>BLP is gas phase right?  One hit on a conductor and the K+ is gone.
>
>At that moment perhaps, but it also gets regenerated elsewhere in the
>container, or something else with a positive charge needs to replace
>it. Right off hand I can't think of anything else in the container
>that gives up its electrons as easily as potassium metal.
>(presumably you are talking about it being reduced, and not just
>adhering to the surface).


Yes.  It should pull an electron from the metal wall, then go its merry
way, unless the wall has something on it that lets the Na form a compound
and stick to it, forming something like Na2O*Al2O3*4SiO2, Na2O*Al2O3*2SiO2,
Na2Ti2O7, or Na2Zr2O7.     8^)



>[snip]
>>>K+ from potassium salts is already ionized so this is not really a
>>>limitation.
>>
>>I don't think so.   If your pre-condition is an excited state for the ion
>>then the exciting photon (or even thermal collision, with some probability)
>>has to arrive *after* the K is ionized to K+, right?  Is it likely to be
>
>No. The K is only generated through Hydrino creation (if at all), and
>these are only a very small proportion of the K+ ions that are already
>present due to the KNO3 (KNO2). All that is required, is that the K+
>from the salt (of which there is plenty), be excited by a photon.
>
>Of course the total amount of K+ remains constant on average, but it
>isn't necessarily identically the same K (K+) atom (ion) taking part
>in a closed cycle.
[snip]


The Earthtech web page notes running the BLP typ cell at 280 C and the
filiment at about 2000 C.  That couldn't replensih very many ions could it?
The ionization potential is 4.341 eV, which is about 50,000 K.  If the
rection really got going then the hydrino formation could feed the process
by the K++ ion sharing its charge with local K's in:

         K++ + K --> 2K+

but the K++  has to meet up with the K before hitting the wall in a 2 torr
environment.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 20:34:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23407;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:25:11 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:25:11 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A9BB50.4A9B earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:26:08 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cmurray@uh.edu,
        rollo artvark.com
Subject: Scott: Introduction to General Relativity
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"kx2gL1.0.ej5.baSgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14356
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!rzg.mpg.de!rzg.mpg.de!not-for-mail
From: bds rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Introduction to General Relativity
Date: 29 Dec 1997 18:11:43 +0100
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft in Garching
Message-ID: <688lkfINNqhl s4bds.rzg.mpg.de>
References: <34a5885b.2148199 news.telepac.pt>
NNTP-Posting-Host: s4bds.aug.ipp-garching.mpg.de

In article <34a5885b.2148199 news.telepac.pt>,
Ricardo V. Oliveira <rveloso mail.telepac.pt> wrote:
|> I would appreciatte if someone  could point me some books about
|> General Relativity for Beginners.
|> I am looking for a book that jumps from Special Relativity to General
|> Relativity with the basics of tensor calculus. I've been reading
|> "SpaceTime Physics - an introduction to special relativity " from
|> Edwin F.Taylor and John Archibald Wheeler. 

Try John Baez's GR Tutorial:

    http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/gr.html

wherein you'll also find a compendium of book recommendations.

-- 
Mach's gut!
Bruce Scott                           "Don't mourn. Organise!" -- Joe Hill
                                              Judi Bari, 1949-1997
bds ipp.mpg.de                     --> http://www.oro.net/~dscanlan/bari.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 20:37:13 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23868;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:27:51 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:27:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A9BBEE.36EA earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:28:46 -0600
From: Rich Murray <rmforall earthlink.net>
Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net
Organization: Room For All
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP  (Win95; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu
Subject: Stephens: Farnsworth,  Miley's table top fusion thing
Content-Type: message/news
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
Resent-Message-ID: <"0L9Ze3.0.rq5.5dSgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14357
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: stephens enteract.com (Scott Stephens)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Miley's table top fusion thing
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:33:44 GMT
Organization: EnterAct L.L.C. Turbo-Elite News Server
Message-ID: <68ac2l$eh6 eve.enteract.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971222094834.23207B-100000 kemi.aau.dk>
Reply-To: stephens enteract.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: able-23.d.enteract.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.spies.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.enteract.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news

"d.b" <britz chemistry.aau.dk> wrote:

>In New Scientist, 13-Dec 1997, there is a report of a new fusion device,
>designed by George Miley.

Directions on how to build your own, and the ongoing experiments of
those operating their own, are available on the High Voltage mailing
list archive - 
http://anchorage.ab.umd.edu/hvlist.html
>From Tue, 30 Sep 97 on, Subject: Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor

I've dug them (most multiple related posts) out, 57K worth, and will
post it to the list if a few people ask me to. Posts are mostly by
Hull on how to build one, and survive to enjoy it.

Please review the archive, to get a flavor for the list. The focus is
non-Tesla Coil (its got its own list(s)) HIGH VOLTAGE TECHNOLOGY.
Only recently have fusion and related issues been discussed. Cheap,
easily hackable neutron and x-ray detectors are lacking. Your
constructive encouraging input will be appreciated.

Here is a recent post, which I hope all will find relevant and useful.
Happy fusing,  :) 

Scott Stephens




**********************************
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:32:07 -0500 (EST)
From: richard hull <rhull richmond.infi.net>
To: hvlist Anchorage.ab.umd.edu
Subject: Some protests, questions

All,

What follows is the result of a three way posting which is so well
done that I thought some might be interested.

Many still doubt the fusor doing neutrons or fusion.  This is old
stuff. The gases analyized following operation of the selaed off fusor
indicate all of the expected gases from D-D and D-T Fusion. (Helium4,
Helium3 ,Hydrogen, Tritium, neutrons, etc.)  This has been done many
times from the 1960s by Farnsworth's team to George Miley in current
work at University of Illonois. These tell tale signatures cannot be
denied.  It is noted that 20-70KV is required to really sling out a
ton of neutrons, but 15KV will serve to show neutron production and do
limited, but real fusion.  VOLTS.............HIGH VOLTS........ make
the difference.

What follows is a post recieved by Richard Wall from a Mr. Eachus
claiming the fusor is a "neutron stripper" .... A definite eye raiser
and thought that deserves a response.  Richard Wall forwarded this to
Tom Ligon (my friend and Dr. Bussard's assistant) whose reply is
complete, concise and worthy of printing, as was Mr. Eachus worry that
fusion was not taking place.

A long but thoughtful read,

Richard Hull, TCBOR

....................................................
....................................................

Tom,

I am forwarding a couple of post from a Mr. Eachus regarding neutron 
stripping which he claims the is the mechanism by which your fusor 
functions and produces neutrons.  If you and Dr. Bussard would care to

address this I would be most appreciative. 

This Li + p reaction looks very similar to your p + B11 reaction.


Thanks RWW

==================================================================

>  "The production of neutrons seems to be occuring in special vacuum 
>tube designs known as Fusors.  The phenomenon is reminiscent of work 
>done by Tesla and Farnsworth.  Tom Ligon has described and 
>demonstrated recent work with Fusors which is attributable to Dr. R.W. 
>Bussard."
 
    The production of neutrons with an arc discharge in deuterium is 
almost trivial.  You can buy thyatrons that do just this.  But the 
neutrons come from stripping, not from fusion.

                                        Robert I. Eachus
=======================================================================

>Could you give me an abbreviated explanation of "stripping"?

RWW

Eachus reply....
 
   Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and
neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound.  In fact, if you flip the 
spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart.

   Now throw a beam of deuterons at an appropriate target, well below 
the center of mass energy needed to split the deuterons.  You will get

a high incidence of cases where the proton is absorbed by the target 
while the neutron sails merrily on its way.  The path taken in most of

these events is that the deuteron spontaneously (and virtually) 
decomposes, then the proton is absorbed by the target, releasing
enough energy to more than bring the Heisenberg books into balance.

For typical targets, the net energy released by the process is around 
ten MeV.  (As I remember it, aluminium is an excellent target.  
Beryllium is better, but only because it contributes further neutrons,

and Lithium is the best:    Li7 + p --> 2 He4 + energy.)  Significant 
neutrons from stripping have been seen with average plasma
temperatures in the 1 eV range, but the actual particles involved are
"runaways" in the 10+ keV range.

   Once upon a time a lot of effort went into looking for stripping
reactions that produced net energy.  (Bombard a thin target with 
deuterons, and dump the neutron beam into depleted U3O8.  In addition 
to the 10+ MeV from the stripping, you get about 200 MeV of energy
from each fast neutron that reacts with the U238.)  The consensus was
that the cost of the deuterium rendered it impractical as a
(earthbound) power generation source, but very practical for use in
spacecraft. 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

===============================================================================

  from: Tom Ligon

Regarding lithium vs boron, RWB and I were discussing this the other
day. The p-B11 reaction should yield more net energy than the p-Li6
reaction, and the fuel is more naturally abundant (80% of natural
boron is B11). However, the published data which show that all the
p-B11 alphas are at two discrete energies turns out to be misleading:
the second two-body decay is from a fast-moving body, which causes
what amounts to severe Doppler broadening of the energy of the second
decay alphas.  The p-Li6 (hope I don't have Li6 and 7 reversed in my
mind) reaction is a true two-body, with monoenergetic products, and it
should be excellent for a direct-conversion system, though one of the
products is not an alpha (He3, I think it was, but that's useful
too!).  If I recall correctly, the Li7 reaction is a bit dirty for our
tastes.  Isotopic separation of the scarce Li6 would be required.  One
need not be too greedy about energy yield and fuel cost in a nuclear
system -- many possibilities are so much better than burning
dinosaurs that a little deficit in reaction crossection or yield is a
mere quibble.

Now regarding this seriously mis-informed Mr. Eachus, who evidently
has not considered the Fusor for what it is, but thinks it is some
relatively cold gas discharge machine: he simply is not paying
attention.  He may also have been hampered somewhat by some
inaccuracies in the writeup in ESJ, plus a great deal of information
they did not convey. 

The Fusor is a spherical variant of a linear accelerator.  It operates
with the grids at tens of thousands of volts.  It is NOT a thyratron
with a plasma temperature of less than a hundred volts, it is not a
Correa PAGD machine running at a few hundred volts, and it is not a CF
device.  If I understand "neutron stripping", it is the rough
equivalent of kicking a Coke machine to see if it will drop a
poorly-held can, when the correct approach is to drop in a couple of
quarters and push the button:  the Fusor ain't neutron stripping
either -  the target is NOT a solid metal, but is the other fuel
species present, i.e if using straight deuterium, the reactions are
classical D-D.  Possibly there is a little stripping in the grids, but
it is, as Eachus says, minimal.  The grids used are typically 95-98%
"transparent", and the goal is to minimize grid collisions.

To quote a well-known conversion factor from the NRL Plasma Formulary:
one electron volt (the energy from accelerating a particle of one
electron charge through an electric field of one volt) is the
equivalent of 11604 degrees K!  Thus, a 10kV toy fusor will accelerate
hydrogen ions to 116,040,000 degrees -- right in the ballpark of the
target temperatures for breakeven DT fusion, and well within the
useful crossection for DD fusion research.

The neat thing about Fusors, and the big difference between them and
"thermonuclear" approaches, is that the plasma is NOT at temperature
in the same sense as a tokamak or ICF device.  The plasma is not at a
randomized "Maxwellian" distribution of particle energies.  The ions
are converging on a small region in the middle of the machine with a
virtually mono-energetic energy distribution, with ALL PARTICLES AT
FUSION ENERGIES, and with a much better proportion of head-on
collisions than the thermal machines achieve. The critical thing is
not "temperature", but particle kinetic energy, and, in fact, DOE
researchers express temperature in degrees only to impress the
public, but use eV for their actual calculation.

The machines I have built, and which Richard Hull and I are building
(target costs: $500-2000 depending on scrounging talent), should work
at about this voltage (10-13kV) on straight deuterium, and are
intended as minimal demonstrators.  Miley and others typically run at
up to 40kV. Hirsch, working for Farnsworth, ran at up to 150kV and
published 1e9 neutron/second, and had unpublished results in the
alarming range of 1e13 neutrons/sec.  Recent researchers have
published values of 1e12N/s.  The neutron energy spectra have been
measured, and they are the classical fusion neutrons expected for
these reactions.  The reaction rates are quite close to the values
predicted by theory.  Nobody who is truely familiar with these devices
harbors ANY reservations that they do classical hot fusion.

If Mr. Eachus cares to take well known and accepted numbers for fusion
crossections out of the book, and apply conventional electrostatics
and plasma mechanics, he should easily be able to prove to himself
that the Fusor is a straight-forward fusion machine, based entirely on
well-established principles of nuclear science and conventional
physics.  I am in the process of finishing an article for _Analog_
magazine, in which I am suggesting that lower-voltage Fusors would
make a nice high-school science project.  They are THAT SIMPLE!
Surely, if he can motivate himself to take a fair look, Mr. Eachus is
sufficiently knowledgable to do better than a high school science
nerd.

Having said all this, the obvious question is -- why has the design
not been pursued?  The answer is that Fusors suffer from grid losses
-- the ions which fail to fuse on a given pass do not recirclate
enough times to assure reaction.  The Farnsworth/Hirsch design misses
breakeven by a factor of about 10,000.  Also, Fusors must operate at a
sufficiently low density to achieve a mean free path adequate to
assure the particles meet primarily in the central convergent focus
region or immediately adjacent mantle region (lower density but very
high rate of head-on collisions and at full particle energy), which
puts an upper limit on their power density.  The early researchers,
though delighted with how easily the machines made fusion, could
easily see the limitations.  We think they gave up too easily.  

Tom
<<<<<<<





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 21:42:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02620;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:32:54 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:32:54 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <34A9D7B1.5B3E skylink.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:27:13 -0800
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Popagation.
References: <01bd1528$bf252680$LocalHost default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"GM2yZ.0.ne.2aTgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14358
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> The one measured property of the Aether is Capacitance, eo
> 8.84E-12 coulombs/joule-meter, a length-only quantity.

Hello Frederick. The only measured porperty of the aether is
the speed of light. Other "measured" properties, such as:
capacitance, inductance, and impedance are arbitrarily and 
non-independently determined by the particular system of 
measurement that we choose to use.  

For example in the MKS system the value of the coulomb is 
arbitrarily and indirectly set via the DEFINITION of the
ampere -- the amount of current in two infinite parallel 
wires one meter apart which causes a force between the wires
equal to one newton. This sets the value of mu0 at 4PiE-7.
Isn't it a curious thing that a "measured" property of the
aether, such as mu0, could be exactly equal to 4PiE-7?

Earlier measuring systems set the values differently. In
the cgs-esu system, e0 was set at unity, making mu0 equal
to 1/(c-squared). In the cgs-msu system, mu0 was arbitrarily
defined as unity, making the value of e0 equal to 1/(c-squared).

Anyhow, in whatever measuring system we arbitrarily use, either
the value of the coulomb or the weber must necessarily be a 
defined quantiy -- and so must be the values of e0, mu0, and 
also their ratio, the impedance of the vacuum. The only true 
measurable is the product of e0 and mu0. Setting the value
of any one of the above five properties, arbitrarily fixes the 
value of each of the other four. This gives us the illusion of 
being able to measure e0 or mu0, but the measurement is in a 
sense incestuous and redundant.

In my opinion, you can not build a model of the aether, or
a transmission line, or any dynamic em-system, which is based 
solely on electrical or magnetic units. They are in every sense
a duality. Except in the static case -- neither ever exists 
without the other. 

Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 21:44:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04223;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:42:27 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:42:27 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 05:40:57 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34b4d48f.100088595 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530501b0cf5c5dfb99 [199.237.131.242]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0cf5c5dfb99 [199.237.131.242]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"KX-Bl1.0.r11.1jTgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14359
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:26:45 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>>At that moment perhaps, but it also gets regenerated elsewhere in the
>>container, or something else with a positive charge needs to replace
>>it. Right off hand I can't think of anything else in the container
>>that gives up its electrons as easily as potassium metal.
>>(presumably you are talking about it being reduced, and not just
>>adhering to the surface).
>
>
>Yes.  It should pull an electron from the metal wall, then go its merry
>way, unless the wall has something on it that lets the Na form a compound

Why has the potassium suddenly turned into sodium (transmutation
reaction? :)

>and stick to it, forming something like Na2O*Al2O3*4SiO2, Na2O*Al2O3*2SiO2,
>Na2Ti2O7, or Na2Zr2O7.     8^)

The point is, that the moment it "pulls an electron from the wall",
the wall becomes positively charged. This has two effects.

1) The positive charge on the wall tends to repel other K+ ions,
forcing them to stay in the gas phase. So shortly after the KNOx
starts evaporating an equilibrium is established between the K+ ions
and the wall.

2) Later after the Hydrino reactions create K atoms, these atoms, on
colliding with the positively charged wall, will surrender an electron
and become K+ ions again, which also tends to restore the balance.

There is a fly in the ointment here however. The NOx- would also be
attracted to a positively charged wall, and might form a
"wall-nitrate" with it.

What actually happens, would depend on how many eV it costs to remove
an electron from the wall. This may be related to the work function of
the metal that the wall is made of. If it costs more than is gained by
reducing the K+, then I think the K+ would just bounce, rather than
being reduced.
[snip]
>The Earthtech web page notes running the BLP typ cell at 280 C and the
>filiment at about 2000 C.  That couldn't replensih very many ions could it?
>The ionization potential is 4.341 eV, which is about 50,000 K.  

I was thinking more along the lines of ions being replenished by the
continued evaporation of the salt.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 22:11:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA32655;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:04:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:04:19 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Robert Stirniman" <robert@skylink.net>
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation.
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:01:00 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd15b1$784f4ea0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"wmNRA1.0.8-7.Y1Ugq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14361
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: Frederick J. Sparber <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Popagation.


>Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>> The one measured property of the Aether is Capacitance, eo
>> 8.84E-12 coulombs/joule-meter, a length-only quantity.
>
>Hello Frederick. The only measured property of the aether is
>the speed of light. Other "measured" properties, such as:
>capacitance, inductance, and impedance are arbitrarily and 
>non-independently determined by the particular system of 
>measurement that we choose to use.

Yup. Circular reasoning ain't it?   :-)

Thanks for the rundown.

Regards,     Frederick  
>
>For example in the MKS system the value of the coulomb is 
>arbitrarily and indirectly set via the DEFINITION of the
>ampere -- the amount of current in two infinite parallel 
>wires one meter apart which causes a force between the wires
>equal to one newton. This sets the value of mu0 at 4PiE-7.
>Isn't it a curious thing that a "measured" property of the
>aether, such as mu0, could be exactly equal to 4PiE-7?
>
>Earlier measuring systems set the values differently. In
>the cgs-esu system, e0 was set at unity, making mu0 equal
>to 1/(c-squared). In the cgs-msu system, mu0 was arbitrarily
>defined as unity, making the value of e0 equal to 1/(c-squared).
>
>Anyhow, in whatever measuring system we arbitrarily use, either
>the value of the coulomb or the weber must necessarily be a 
>defined quantiy -- and so must be the values of e0, mu0, and 
>also their ratio, the impedance of the vacuum. The only true 
>measurable is the product of e0 and mu0. Setting the value
>of any one of the above five properties, arbitrarily fixes the 
>value of each of the other four. This gives us the illusion of 
>being able to measure e0 or mu0, but the measurement is in a 
>sense incestuous and redundant.
>
>In my opinion, you can not build a model of the aether, or
>a transmission line, or any dynamic em-system, which is based 
>solely on electrical or magnetic units. They are in every sense
>a duality. Except in the static case -- neither ever exists 
>without the other. 
>
>Regards,
>Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 22:12:03 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA32167;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:00:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:00:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cf7fb269bd [199.237.131.225]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:03:31 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Stripping by resonance
Resent-Message-ID: <"l63zB2.0.Xs7.3-Tgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14360
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Vorts!

Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to
indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly
bound.  In fact, if you flip the  spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron
falls apart."

If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the
deuterium atoms, in D2O for example,  using nuclear magnetic resonance
(NMR), to achieve fission.  Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to
NMR stimulation though, but other another prospect might be 7Li.  This also
leads to speculation about the prospects of achieving NMR induced fission
in N, F, and B.

Here are some values of interest:

Isotope   Magnetogyric      NMR Frequency
            Ratio        (MHz Relative to H)
      (10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1)

1H         26.7510           100.000000
2H          4.1064            15.351
3H         28.5335           106.663
7Li        10.396             38.864 *
11B         8.5827            32.084 *
14N         1.9324             7.224
19F        25.1665            94.093 *

* - high receptivity

Unfortunately using the neutrons in U238 etc. is a very dirty way to make
energy.  However, this leads to wondering about achieving NMR fission in
elements heavier that Fe, especially in light but unstable ones, where the
energy contribution would be positive, but the waste products would tend to
be stable or quickly stable.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 23:12:56 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13035;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:09:18 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:09:18 -0800
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:08:39 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199712310708.BAA17984 dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki )
Subject: Re: Pressurization of Pitot, ref: TWA 800 data
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: rvanspaa eisa.net.au
Resent-Message-ID: <"vraZ22.0.VB3.T-Ugq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14362
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

December 30, 1997

Robin, you wrote,

>I still don't know what the word means (or what it is an abbreviation
>of). :)

The pitot device is named after Henri Pitot (1695-1771), French 
physicist and engineer. He invented the device first used in hydraulics 
(no airplanes then) to measure moving fluid pressures. Later the device 
concept was adapted to aircraft flight. 
 
>So someone was trying to shoot down a UFO and missed? :)

In that vein, no. Someone thought the aircraft was an UFO and actually 
shot it down, killing all of the aliens. :(

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 23:23:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15049;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:15:51 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd15bb$ecfb4600$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"uBWBT.0.3h3.T8Vgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14363
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert Stirniman wrote:

>The only measured property of the aether is
>the speed of light.

Using who's watch?  :-)

> Isn't it a curious thing that a "measured" property of
>the aether, such as mu0,could be exactly 4piE-7?

Math acrobatics: q = CV, C = e0*lambda or for a circle
2(pi)r, E = .5*CV^2 = .5*q^2/C = q^2/4(pi)*e0*r.  :-)

Then since q = +/- 1.602E-19 Coulombs (constant) = CV
V = +/-  1.602E-19/C.

Since I (displacement) = C * dV/dt is it so surprising that
a "measured" property of the aether is exactly 4piE-7?

Then again, one can measure the capacitance between two
plates with a slab of bacon between them and then very quickly remove the
bacon and measure the capacitance of space relative to bacon? (or Jello?)

As arbitrary as the monetary exchange system?  :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Dec 30 23:31:20 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16230;
	Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:27:38 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:27:38 -0800
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pressurization of Pitot, ref: TWA 800 data
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:24:21 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd15bd$1d38b5e0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"X-XFu2.0.Rz3.eFVgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14364
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: rvanspaa eisa.net.au <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: Pressurization of Pitot, ref: TWA 800 data


>December 30, 1997
>
>Robin, you wrote,
>
>>I still don't know what the word means (or what it is an abbreviation
>>of). :)
>
>The pitot device is named after Henri Pitot (1695-1771), French
>physicist and engineer. He invented the device first used in hydraulics
>(no airplanes then) to measure moving fluid pressures. Later the device
>concept was adapted to aircraft flight.
>
>>So someone was trying to shoot down a UFO and missed? :)
>
>In that vein, no. Someone thought the aircraft was an UFO and actually
>shot it down, killing all of the aliens. :(
>
>-AK-
>
I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a super powerful cosmic ray particle
collision in a
one-in-a-zillion chance. Possible "sprite" activity from this also. Might be
some residual
induced radioactivity around in the fuel tank
materials?

Regards,    Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 00:19:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19303;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530501b0cfa906dbfb [199.237.131.225]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:19:17 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Resent-Message-ID: <"MRHqD1.0.Sj4.8-Vgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14365
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 8:40 PM 12/30/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
[snip]
>Why has the potassium suddenly turned into sodium (transmutation
>reaction? :)
>
>>and stick to it, forming something like Na2O*Al2O3*4SiO2, Na2O*Al2O3*2SiO2,
>>Na2Ti2O7, or Na2Zr2O7.     8^)


Maybe because that's what happens when you think about too many things at
once!  I digressed off into the CRC Handbook, etc.  These are some
prospects for CG electrode contamination - depending on what kind of
electrodes, fittings, trace elements, etc. are involved.  I like Na2Zr2O7
as a prospect a lot.  If stainless steel is involved, then silicon might be
replaced in the electrolyte as well.  It seems to me that washing the CG
cell in weak HCL after a run might bring the sodium out of hiding, if it is
hiding.  Sorry to digress.



>
>The point is, that the moment it "pulls an electron from the wall",
>the wall becomes positively charged. This has two effects.
>
>1) The positive charge on the wall tends to repel other K+ ions,
>forcing them to stay in the gas phase. So shortly after the KNOx
>starts evaporating an equilibrium is established between the K+ ions
>and the wall.


I think the charge on the conductive wall will equalize in less than a
picosecond.  If not, computers should not work so well.  It is also of
interest that the neutralizing charge is *already there* by the time the K+
hits the wall.  It is attracted there by induction prior to the collision -
something that expedites the collision.


>
>2) Later after the Hydrino reactions create K atoms, these atoms, on
>colliding with the positively charged wall, will surrender an electron
>and become K+ ions again, which also tends to restore the balance.


Not a very likely event due to short time intervals involved.


>
>There is a fly in the ointment here however. The NOx- would also be
>attracted to a positively charged wall, and might form a
>"wall-nitrate" with it.


Yes.   The attraction would occur even to a neutral conductive wall by
induced charge.


>
>What actually happens, would depend on how many eV it costs to remove
>an electron from the wall. This may be related to the work function of
>the metal that the wall is made of. If it costs more than is gained by
>reducing the K+, then I think the K+ would just bounce, rather than
>being reduced.


I think the standard work function is based on electron ejection by
potential, and is a function of space charge in the vicinity of the
electrode.  A K+ ion approaching is a whole different ball game, and will
induce a very significant gradient.  However, it does point out that the K+
might be neutralized before hitting the wall, either by tunneling, or by an
induced space charge.


>[snip]
>>The Earthtech web page notes running the BLP typ cell at 280 C and the
>>filiment at about 2000 C.  That couldn't replensih very many ions could it?
>>The ionization potential is 4.341 eV, which is about 50,000 K.
>
>I was thinking more along the lines of ions being replenished by the
>continued evaporation of the salt.
>[snip]


Evaporation won't ionize the KNO3 very much, it will it?  Even at 2000 C?


Back to the proposed hydrino catalysing reactions:


    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV


One way to attack is to mix HF and HBr.  Then equilibrium will establish
some small percentage of Br, BrF and H2.  The percentages might be bumped
up by raising the temperature, or maybe exciting the environment with
sparks.

It would be interesting to find that the H can get out of a well sealed
bottle containing a mixture of HF and HBr.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 00:27:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21517;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:22:27 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530502b0cfb0d0b063 [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:25:30 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts
Resent-Message-ID: <"z8HbP2.0.7G5.23Wgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14366
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Back to the proposed hydrino catalysing reactions:


    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV


One way to attack is to mix HF and HBr.  Then equilibrium will establish
some small percentage of Br, BrF and H2.  The percentages might be bumped
up by raising the temperature, or maybe exciting the environment with
sparks.

It would be interesting to find that the H can get out of a well sealed
bottle containing a mixture of HF and HBr.

Also, as discussed before, stimulation with light of the right wavelength
might assist the catalysis.  Also, H2 could be added to the mixture as
well.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 01:09:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22683;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:03:08 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:03:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cfb99228fb [199.237.131.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:05:14 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts
Resent-Message-ID: <"k09yX1.0.LY5.AfWgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14367
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Back to the proposed hydrino catalysing reactions:


    H2 + BrF --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + F  + 0.02 eV

    H2 + Br --> Hy + H+ + 2e- + Br+ + 0.03 eV

    H2 + HBr --> Hy + 2H+ + 2e- + Br -0.125 eV


Electrolysis of hydrobromic with hydroflouric acid might produce excess
heat, maybe at a very high voltage, and at a high frequency in order to
keep the freed  H and Br and F together.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 01:57:05 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28568;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:51:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:51:16 -0800
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:51:39 +0100 (MET)
Message-Id: <199712310951.KAA15376 imaginet.fr>
X-Sender: lentin mail.imaginet.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin imaginet.fr>
Subject: Jean to Jean, Jean & Jean
Resent-Message-ID: <"ieCUO2.0.D-6.JMXgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14368
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is for French or French-speaking Vorts 

(well, I know 3 - Jean-Louis N, Jean-Paul B & Jean DLG)*

*( be assured you that,  despite the fact that many Frenchmen are named
Jean-______, the 100 % correlation in the present sample is just a
statistical curiosity)

** (any other Jean out there ?)

Anyway, I just want to mention a long serious article I  published, on the
subject of LENR, transmutation and rad-waste remediation patents. As far as
I know, a first mention in the French print media.Of course it's not in a
science mag - they wouldn't touch that with a 10-feet pole - it's on the new
issue of Nouvelles Cles, a sort of new-agey highbrow trimestrial magazine.
(It's on the newsstands, but sometimes hard to get. Address is Nouvelles
Cles, BP 18, 84220 Gordes, fax 04 90 72 08 38).

While I'm at it, I also did, on a more popular/digest approach, pages 296 to
300 in Actuel Almanach 2001 (now THAT one is in all the newsstands !) -
about "underground science" - O/U, FE, ZPE, CF, water, Bio-EM...

Happy new year to all !
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jean-Pierre Lentin
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 02:45:42 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA31256;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:42:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:42:32 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0cfcc5dbc00 [199.237.131.234]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:43:51 -0900
To: "Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>,
        "Rich Murray" <rmforall earthlink.net>,
        "Douglas Morrison" <drom vxcern.cern.ch>,
        "Dick Blue" <blue pilot.msu.edu>,
        "Steven E. Jones" <jonesse astro.byu.edu>, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
        fusion zorch.SF-Bay.ORG
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: CG to Skeptics: WHERE Did the Na Go???
Cc: "Stan Gleeson" <cincygrp ix.netcom.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"QLiCH1.0.Ie7.N6Ygq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14369
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert et al,

As I pointed out, an insulating film, layer of white material, forms on the
electrodes, in particular on the Zr electrodes.  This does not seem to jive
with your item (2).  How can you miss this?  It would be helpful if you
published *full information* on this protocol, especially including Na2SiO3
concentration used.  Further, I would suggest that the material depositing
on the electrode(s) might include Na2Ti2O7 and Na2Zr2O7, which are not
soluble in water.  I would therefore suggest to anyone doing a replication
that rinsing the cell in weak HCL to remove such deposits and then checking
for Na in the wash is a worthwile check.   Furthermore, an anlysis of the
stainless steel electrode will probably show Si, which can be expected to
appear in the electrolyte under the severely corrosive conditions that high
voltage AC electrolysis can bring.

I take your refusal to reply to my comments, or to provide sufficient
information for replication of your Na experiment, as a clear indication of
no real desire to have any answers to your questions.

Furthermore, *I* have a secret protocol that yields amazing results, and I
defy you to tell me what is wrong with it!  Speak now, in writing, or
forever hold your peace!

Regards,

Horace Heffner



At 12:45 AM 12/26/97, Horace Heffner wrote:
>Robert Bass asks in post quoted below: "If LENT is discounted, _WHERE_ did
>the Na go?"
>
>I am not a chemist.  However, I have operated and performed calorimetry on
>a variety of electrochemical cells, including spark/ark type cells, with a
>variety of electrode types, including cells where sodium metasilicate
>(Na2SiO3) was a primary ingredient, and zirconium was the primary electrode
>material.  I can tell you from experience that (1) a highly insulating
>film, which includes other unusual properties, and which probably removes a
>small amount of silicon from the electolyte, is created on the electrodes,
>(2) a precipitate normally forms at the bottom of the cell, and (3)
>electrode corrosion typically occurs in selected spots which are visible
>upon microscopic examination.  However, it is difficult to determine the
>amount of corrrosion on a macroscopic scale unless you either use foil
>electrodes or have a very long run time.  This is partially due to the fact
>that deposition of electrolyte material on the electrodes prevents weighing
>the electrodes to determine loss of metals.
>
>There are a wide variety of insoluble sodium compunds that can form
>depending the electrode metals and contaminates.  It is also worthy of note
>that samples should be taken when the electrolyte is hot and then again
>when cool yet still in the cell.  This is because various Na salts are
>soluble at low temperatures, but not at high temperatures.  Of course,
>total cell digestion is the best method.
>
>Spelling out complete details of your Na based protocol on a netwslist or
>web page, including suppliers used for components, concentrations,
>voltages, currents, Ph values, etc., may further your cause to get
>replication.
>
>Lastly, I should once again say that it seems to me that setting up a
>continuous batch process would clarify where the Na (or any other reactant,
>such a Th) is going. If nothing else, run the cell, then add NaOH to
>restore the Na concetration, and run some more, etc.  If the Na is
>chemically combining with some material, then this process will exhaust
>that material and the process will stop.



At 11:55 PM 12/30/97, Robert Bass wrote:
>To: Rich Murray, Dick Blue, Douglas Morrison, Steve Jones
>
>Subject: CG Challenge to Skeptics: WHERE Did the Na Go???
>             Elementary Demo of REALITY of
>           Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations (LENT)
>
> Since I posted a rudimentary version of this
>Challenge to the hard-core Skeptics by the CG, we have
>received a FEW rather interesting but DISCURSIVE comments
>on the whole matter, but not one of the more noted
>Skeptics (nor anyone, for that matter) has responded with
>a Scenario which would allow a reasonable scientist to
>find that the following kind of experiment is NOT
>"intellectually coercive."  For discussion's sake,
>assume:
>
> 1.  All materials: reagant-grade purity
>2.  Zirconium & Stainless Steel electrodes,
>tested before & after for impurities.
>3.  Alternating-current (AC) electrolysis in
>a closed cell.
>4.  No source of silicon contamination (such
>as silicone sealants).
>5.  Before & after elemental assays by any
>and every method desired (classical chemical assay,
>atomic emission spectroscopy, mass spectroscopy,
>whatever  --  all yielding the SAME concordant results).
>6.  Electrolysis less than two hours.
>7.  Before & after processing Spectral Lines
>of heights roughly in the following proportions:
>
>Element  BEFORE  AFTER
>Na          8               0.5
>Si          10              10
>Mg          0              3
>Ti           0              1.5
>Ca          0              1.0
>K           0              0.5
>Zr          0              0.5
>
>8.  The three isotopes of Mg measured to be
>drastically different from the natural isotopic
>abundance ratios.
>
>  Query: WHERE did the Sodium go???
>
> Because Na cannot plate out, nor combine
>chemically in such a way as to seem to disappear,
>or "hide," the myriad of "explanations" which seek
>to "explain away" the results of LENT-1 Transmutation
>Reactors when applied to Radioactive Thorium are
>not applicable in this simple, non-radioactive
>situation.
>
>Some of the Skeptics have demonstrated
>considerable resourcefulness in imagining ways
>in which one might deceive oneself.  So the
>CincyGroup (CG) are very sincere in this:
>
>  Query: WHAT Scenario can be proposed
>in which it would be possible to interpret results of
>the type above IN ANY MANNER _OTHER_ than LENT?
>
> Serious Skeptics: Speak now or forever hold
>your peace!  The CG may never disclose the Protocol
>for the experiment unless the hard-core Skeptics
>commit themselves, in writing, in advance!  Also
>there is NO EXCUSE for the Skeptics not being
>willing to commit themselves in writing, in advance.
>This is a perfectly straightforward and elementary
>experimental interpretation!  Let's hear it NOW
>from the most prominent Doubting Thomases.
>      Sincerely,
>                        Bob Bass
>
>=======================================================
>Robert W. Bass
>P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739
>Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213;          e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com
>============================================================


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 03:03:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA31925;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:53:01 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:53:01 -0800
From: TonyRusi <TonyRusi aol.com>
Message-ID: <3cecab6d.34aa23c6 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 05:51:48 EST
To: jdecker keelynet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Z3uHC.0.lo7.CGYgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14370
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Goddard started off on a bench in a lab. Myrabo is too. How far has anyone
transported anything with ZPE? From what I've heard from Scott Little nothing
has worked. Let me know please of anyone who has moved 60 grams any direction
with any acceleration with ZPE. This is not to say ZPE won't move something in
the future, I would interested in hearing any plausible methods of
accomplishment.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 07:14:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17522;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:11:01 -0800 (PST)
Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
From: "Frederick J. Sparber" <frederick.sparber worldnet.att.net>
To: "vortex-l" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:06:46 -0700
Message-ID: <01bd15fd$b64dc0a0$LocalHost default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"1UO5M.0.iH4.32cgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14371
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robert Stirniman wrote

>The only measured property of the aether is
>the speed of light.

Caught me off guard on that one, Robert>

I think you just shot down interferometry,
optics, and Snell's Law.   :-)

sin theta(1)/sin theta(2) = (e1/e0)^1/2 = c/v1

The Capacitance of THE AETHER with the Aether speed of light well
measured-established, as you say, is telling you
what the Capacitance of the Aether is, is it not?

As stated mu0 (4(pi)E-7 henry/meter)is "created" by energy propagating
through the capacitive Aether creating a displacement current, I = C *
dV/dt.

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 07:56:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06743;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:52:58 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 07:52:58 -0800
From: Puthoff <Puthoff aol.com>
Message-ID: <33fbec0a.34aa67d5 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:42:11 EST
To: TonyRusi aol.com, jdecker@keelynet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re:  Re: sonic rocket?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"FBVk53.0.Af1.Pfcgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14372
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 12/31/97 11:04:26 AM, TonyRusi aol.com wrote:

<<How far has anyone
transported anything with ZPE?>>

So far, ZPE forces bring surfaces together or affect excitation levels without
changing center of gravity, and there is one Russian paper indicating that
this may always be the case.  If so, a secondary process will have to be used;
i.e., extract ZPE and then use to, e.g., heat plasma for ion propulsion.

Hal Puthoff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 08:15:50 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25875;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:10:01 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:10:01 -0800 (PST)
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <69e529a2.34aa6cf4 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:03:56 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"SsQwI2.0.DK6.Ovcgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14373
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

All,
If I may throw a thought out for discussion here. According to 
Mills, there is also a three body mechanism involving just
hydrogen atoms that will produce hydrinos. This is what
he says occurs in the suns corona. 
My thought is would this take place in an arc in a hydrogen
atmosphere?  An AC arc...DC...??  Metallic potassium 
electrodes perhaps in an H atmosphere?
Just some thoughts at the end of 1997, a very good year.

Regards to all,
Vince
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 11:15:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11890;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:10:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:10:49 -0800
Message-ID: <34AAB474.4873 keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:09:08 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: TonyRusi aol.com
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
References: <3cecab6d.34aa23c6 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"ul0G62.0.dv2.uYfgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14374
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Tony et al!

Jerry Decker wrote;
> If money and effort is to be invested in flight and thrust, why not in
> field propulsion or ways to alter gravity flows?

I also provided a link to a directory having files with multiple 
approaches to gravity OTHER than brute force chemical propulsion systems;

                http://www.keelynet.com/gravity.htm

Many of the files report weight loss to various degrees, using spinning 
gyros, electrical interrupters, hydromagnetic shockwaves, monopole 
superconductors, inertial drive mechanisms, sound, high voltage 
pulses, ionic lift, excited superconductors, even what little detail has 
been extracted from UFO sightings and claimed experiences.  

Some of these files could well be describing ZPE interactions.

Tony Rusi wrote;
>> How far has anyone transported anything with ZPE? 

Hal Puthoff's paper on tapping the vacuum for spaceflight propulsion is 
the best explanation I have read for how ZPE could be used.

            http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/putnasa.htm

Many aether theories, including push gravity (called 'impelled gravity' 
on the Microsoft Explorer encyclopedia) claim that the universe is in 
fact a highly pressurized medium that holds everything together by 
pushing into mass.  Which means there is a kind of wind blowing into the 
larger mass of the earth. 

We are like flies caught on a screen to be held to the earth by this 
inflowing wind.  If we can deflect this wind around us (remember it flows 
INTO us ALSO), then we could reduce our effective weight, even eliminate 
it.

This is the theory which fits Keely's neutral centre claims and the one I 
think is closest to the reality.  Proof will come from controlled weight 
loss or elimination using technology.  Seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
         Voice : (214) 324-8741  /   FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 13:09:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05514;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:07:50 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Resent-Message-ID: <"fTT3n2.0.4M1.nEhgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14375
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 5:51 AM 12/31/97, TonyRusi wrote:
>Goddard started off on a bench in a lab. Myrabo is too. How far has anyone
>transported anything with ZPE? From what I've heard from Scott Little nothing
>has worked. Let me know please of anyone who has moved 60 grams any direction
>with any acceleration with ZPE. This is not to say ZPE won't move something in
>the future, I would interested in hearing any plausible methods of
>accomplishment.


There is a big difference between a drive that requires mass and a drive
that picks up its mass/energy as it goes along, even if very slowly.  If
picking up mass/energy from the vaccuum is feasible, then superluminal
travel may be feasible.  Transporting by beaming energy/mass to an object
is clearly sub-luminal in capability.

The main problem at this point is getting the camel's nose into the tent,
for if that can be accomplished it won't be long before the whole camel is
in the tent.  What is needed, at minimum, is a demonstration of
feasibility, without regard to efficiency or cost.

I believe the example I stated earlier provides just that, a demonstration
of feasibility.  I wrote:

"OK, a variation might be to use a pair of back to back concave lenses to
reflect sideways energy into focal points F1 and F2, and then divert with
mirrors there to the rear of the craft.  The lateral rays would all be
reflected back laterallly due to symmetry.

Also, if we had a ZPE lens that should work:



   Cross Section of Top Half of
    Lens/Mirror Configuration


 --------->---|| <---------------
         ^   /||\   ^
         |  / || \  |
         | /  ||  \ |
         |/   ||   \|
 --->----\-<--||-->-/------<-----
        F1          F2



The idea is to use convex lens || to refract ZPE from both right and left
into focal points F1 and F2, and then use comparatively small mirrors to
reflect the condensed ZPE to the rear of the ship. This is difficult to
draw in characters.  the bottom beam just slightly misses the mirrors at F1
or F2, but is then diverted by the lens into the opposing focal point
mirror, and then to the rear of the craft."

Assuming the above is correct, it appears the significance is lost?
Following is further logic that may make the principle more understandable.
Suppose we have two back-to-back concave lenses, as stated above, and
small mirrors at the two focal points, F1 and F2, as stated above, but
simply reflecting back at the concave mirrors:

           . . . . . . . . . . . . .
             .                   .  ----<-------
               .              .      \
                .            .        \
                 .          .          \
    |            .          .           \ |--<----->-----
    |            .          .           / |
    F1           .          .          /  F2
                .            .        /
               .              .      /
             .                   .  /
           . . . . . . . . . . . . . ------->----->


In this configuration, all forces are symmetrical and balanced.  However,
there is more force on the mirror at F2 from the concave mirror side than
from space at the right.  That is becuase the mirror focuses energy from
the right onto mirror F2.  The same is true in mirror image for mirror F1.
Now, if we slant the mirror at F2:


           . . . . . . . . . . . . .
             .                   .  ----<-------
               .              .      \   ^
                .            .        \  |
                 .          .          \ |
    |            .          .<------->--\|/-<-----------
    |            .          .            / |
    F1           .          .            F2|                Net
                .            .             |               Thrust
               .              .            v                 |
             .                   .                           |
           . . . . . . . . . . . . .                         v


The larger amount of condensed ZPE impinging on the left side of mirror F2
is then diverted upwards, more than enough to compensate for the downward
thrust that results from the uncondensed radiation received from space at
the right.

Now, we know a mirror to deflect ZPE is possible, and that momentum is
transferred to such a mirror, if it is shielded on one side by another
mirror(the Casimir effect.)  If a mirror is possible, then a concave mirror
is possible.  If a concave mirror is possible, the focusing ZPE is
possible.  If focusing ZPE is possible, then it can be focused onto a
mirror that gains a net impulse from the ZPE momentum, due to focused
energy being on one side of the mirror.

Groups of 4 back-to-back laterally facing mirrors could be configured, each
with the focal point mirrors facing aft.  This configuration could be
stacked in the axis of travel if the focalpoint mirrors are adjusted
slightly outbound laterally.

Have I missed something?  Is the camel's nose in the tent, or not?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 14:43:57 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16225;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:40:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:40:15 -0800
Message-ID: <34AAE589.4655 keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:38:33 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: hheffner corecom.net
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"_jbLQ1.0.Oz3.Edigq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14376
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Horace et al!

Interesting, this 'camels' nose' drive mechanism, god I love 
multi-cultural communications....<g>...

Horace Heffner wrote regarding a possible ZPE propulsion mechanism;
> The main problem at this point is getting the camel's nose into the
> tent, for if that can be accomplished it won't be long before the whole 
> camel is in the tent.  What is needed, at minimum, is a demonstration 
> of feasibility, without regard to efficiency or cost.

>Also, if we had a ZPE lens that should work:
>
>   Cross Section of Top Half of
>    Lens/Mirror Configuration
>
>
> --------->---|| <---------------
>         ^   /||\   ^
>         |  / || \  |
>         | /  ||  \ |
>         |/   ||   \|
> --->----\-<--||-->-/------<-----
>        F1          F2

Keep the tent warm.......Happy New Year!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
         Voice : (214) 324-8741  /   FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 15:09:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20797;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:59:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:59:10 -0800
Message-ID: <34AAE9F5.3D2F keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:57:25 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: Laithwaite Obituary
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"iRly6.0.b45.yuigq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14377
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts and Howdy!

A copy of Professor Eric Laithwaites' obituary is now posted at;

   http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/laithobi.htm

Quite a full life, often dealing frustration because of the stigma from 
his claims of weight loss in spinning gyroscopic masses...he claimed 5 
pounds lost from a 20 pound spinning mass.

Some say it is a form of linear friction as in the Sandy Kidd video done 
by Beyond 2000, where the device was counterbalanced by a bucket of scrap 
metal...when the device was in operation, the crude mechanical vibration 
from the rotation would cause the unit to move upwards in small steps.  

These small jerky steps are one of the problems with mechanical claims of 
gravity reduction, since these small jumps would appear to have to push 
against 'something.'  Though with inertial drive units as demonstrated by 
Thornsen with the canoe that moved across the lake with no paddles or 
propellers, it was simply a box sitting in the canoe.

The unit weight measurements have to be averaged so you don't measure 
these spikes....the mechanical analogue of the same error as seen in some 
free energy devices that are truly measuring many short lived spikes, and 
which 'appear' to be overunity.  Interesting, makes it a basic proof 
requirement; 

  mechanically - will it fly?, 
  electronically - will it run itself and something else?

Thornsen is one of the better demonstrations I've seen of the 
Puthoff/Rueda/Haisch paper on ZPE as the cause of inertia.  Where an 
object pushes against its own mass which in turn pushes against the 
aether...'scuse me, ZPE...<g>..

More coming on that in the near future, geez, about time, since this 
'new' info is from the 50's.....
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
         Voice : (214) 324-8741  /   FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 16:38:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04715;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:33:06 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:33:06 -0800 (PST)
Sender: barry math.ucla.edu
Message-ID: <34AAE401.21C3 math.ucla.edu>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:32:01 -0800
From: Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Laithwaite Obituary
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]> <34AAE9F5.3D2F@keelynet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"S-m8-3.0.Z91.0Hkgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14378
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jerry wrote:
> 
> 
> A copy of Professor Eric Laithwaites' obituary 

Well, another one bites the dust, as they say. No 
disrespect to Laithwaite intended---its just the
way of "over unity" inventors and their inventions.

I was always singularly perplexed by Laithwaite: he's
clearly an excellent electrical engineer, and was 
respected, having the ear of academics 
and the public for at least a few years, and he claimed to be able to 
make rather obvious weight reductions in simple fashion,
yet none of his work seems to have been replicated 
or to have spread far beyond himself. What to make of it?
Don't know, but given his particular history its hard to 
imagine that he had really discovered a new inertial effect....

> 
> ....he claimed 5 pounds lost from a 20 pound spinning mass.

Yes, but why were there be any need for this to remain 
a "claim"? Such an effect should be easy to replicate.

> 
> 
> ...small jerky steps are one of the problems with mechanical claims of
> gravity reduction...these spikes....[are] the mechanical analogue 
> of the same error as seen in some free energy devices that are 
> truly measuring many short lived spikes, and which 'appear' [OU] 

Jerry makes a very interesting connection here: many such devices
are based on strongly fluctuating forces. In the electrical
case, since the system is (presumably) conservative,
these I*V fluctuations truly add to exactly zero, but
the errors introduced by measuring equipment yield sums that do not
add exactly to zero, the error depending on how well resolved the
I*V spikes are. In contrast, in the mechanical case, since 
the system is in frictional contact with its surroundings, and
friction is not a conservative force, the
sum of all the frictional force spikes does not have to be 
zero, and the device can push itself along in a form that is
essentially no different than walking. But the spiky-ness
of the forces makes it superficially look like the net frictional
force is zero, because many spikes nearly do sum to zero.

So, in both cases the
spiky-ness of the system output is the source of the misperception,
tho in one case its because its hard to get spikey data 
points to sum to zero when they should, and in the other because 
the spikey effects nearly do sum to zero.


-- 
Barry Merriman
Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 16:54:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05062;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:48:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:48:34 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b0d097ef2c3e [199.237.131.242]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:51:32 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Resent-Message-ID: <"3ky7t.0._E1.XVkgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14379
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 4:38 PM 12/31/97, Jerry wrote:

                             o
                       o
                   o
>>               o
>> --------->---|| <---------------
>>         ^   /||\   ^
>>         |  / || \  |
>>         | /  /\  \ |
>>         |/  /0o\  \|
>> --->----\--/ \/ \-------<-----
>>        F1          F2
>
>Keep the tent warm.......Happy New Year!

I'll keep the fire buring!

Happy New Year!

Horace


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 17:08:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09185;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:01:05 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:01:05 -0800
Message-ID: <34AB0689.3E9 keelynet.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:59:21 -0800
From: Jerry <jdecker keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: barry math.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: Laithwaite Obituary
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]> <34AAE9F5.3D2F@keelynet.com> <34AAE401.21C3@math.ucla.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CgXIM.0.EF2.Ehkgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14380
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gnorts Barry et al!

Geez, I'm learning all kinds of new terms here, camel nose, spiky-ness, 
gotta love it!..<g>..

Barry Merriman wrote;
>  But the spiky-ness of the forces makes it superficially look like the 
>  net frictional force is zero, because many spikes nearly do sum to 
>  zero.

spiky-ness of forces....excellent and I love the visual image associated 
with the term, I think this deserves a file, let's see, 

             'On the Application of Spiky-ness 
            to Overunity and Inertial Propulsion'

.....thanks Barry....<g>.....!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
         Voice : (214) 324-8741  /   FAX :  (214) 324-8741
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 17:30:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13260;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:24:13 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:24:13 -0800
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971231192420.00810ce0 mail.eden.com>
X-Sender: little mail.eden.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:24:20 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Scott Little <little eden.com>
Subject: BLP gas-phase status
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"48Cld3.0.6F3.y0lgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14381
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Gnorts & HNY,

I've been fighting leaks this week in the BLP gas-phase apparatus.  Both of
the petite metal-ceramic-metal feedthrus (for the thermocouple) that I TIG
welded into the base plate had microscopic cracks in the welds/parent
metal!  After several attempts to fix/redo these welds, I finally gave up
on welding and decided to solder these feedthrus in with pure Pb (melting
point 320C)...same as I'm using to solder the thermocouple wire into the
feedthru tube.  Finally, this afternoon I got the thing assembled for the
last time and it checked out leak free.

Next week, we'll start the experimental runs.  Stay tuned.


Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 19:50:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07064;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:47:17 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:47:17 -0800
Message-ID: <01BD162D.BEE01DA0.JoeC transmutation.com>
From: Joe Champion <JoeC transmutation.com>
To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Damn Scott!
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:50:35 -0000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"9ss0u1.0.Bk1.47ngq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14382
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-----Original Message-----
From:	Scott Little [SMTP:little eden.com]

After several attempts to fix/redo these welds, I finally gave up
on welding and decided to solder these feedthrus in with pure Pb (melting
point 320C)...same as I'm using to solder the thermocouple wire into the
feedthru tube.

Scott,

You seem to have little respect for Pb.  Why in the hell would you want to 
waste it as a solder when you could transmute it into GOLD <grin>?

The best to Vortex and their families for a great 1998 from the Champion 
Clan.

Joe Champion
www.transmutation.com




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 19:59:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27759;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:54:39 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 19:54:39 -0800 (PST)
Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net
Message-ID: <34AB0358.5BFD3B7A mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:45:44 -0500
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Cavendish's experiment
References: <v01530503b0cefac81a1f [199.237.131.242]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"lAks42.0.fn6.-Dngq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14383
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Horace Heffner wrote:

  "... It is therefore very important to heat
   the balls uniformly> with regard to the
   central (vertical) axis."
 
Hi Horace,

Thanks for the suggestions and calculations.
Happy New Year!

Jack Smith

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 21:01:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14248;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:56:43 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 20:56:43 -0800
From: VCockeram <VCockeram aol.com>
Message-ID: <57e97202.34ab21ad aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:55:06 EST
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com
Subject: Re: BLP gas-phase status
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11)
Resent-Message-ID: <"suD8R2.0.TU3.A8ogq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14384
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In a message dated 97-12-31 20:31:36 EST, you write:

<< From:	little eden.com (Scott Little)
  Gnorts & HNY,
  I've been fighting leaks this week in the BLP gas-phase apparatus. >>

Scott,

I have considerable welding experience and suggest you
try brazing instead.  The brass flows much nicer than steel
in welding (though not as nice a solder) and will give you
a good seal just in case you get a thermal runaway as Mills
reportedly had in a couple of cases.  

Good luck and have a great new year!

Best Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas Nevada

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 21:55:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21094;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:50:30 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:50:30 -0800
Message-ID: <34AB2D8A.5D4F skylink.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:45:46 -0800
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation
References: <01bd15bb$ecfb4600$LocalHost default> <34AB1A75.1BCB@skylink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"adF-N2.0.W95.cwogq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14385
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
>>The only measured property of the aether is
>>the speed of light.
> Using who's watch?  :-) 
Anyone's clock and measuring rod, along with the appropriate conversion
factors, will work just fine. Even if we could not for some reason attain
the conversion factors, the ratio itself would be useful enough for many
calculations. Inconsistencies in our fundamental physical system and our
units of measurement do not result from the arbitrary conventions we
choose to use for length and time. The problem stems from our definition
of force, and consequently also the definition of energy.
 
We define force as the acceleration of inertial mass: F = ma.  This might
be a fine definition, except that we don't really have any understanding of
the fundamental cause or units of inertia itself.  Hence, our definition
and the units we use for force (kg-meter/sec^2), is an arbitrary convention.
 
For example, just as well as we know that it takes a force to accelerate
a mass, we also know that it takes a force to accelerate an electric charge.
So why not define force as  F = qa, and assign it the units (coul-meter/sec^2).
Or, we know that a force exists between two charges, so why not assign it as
F = q^2/r^2. Or that a force exists between two masses -- so why not define
force as  F= m^2/r^2. We also know that a force exists between two magnetic
poles, and that it would take a force to accelerate a free magnetic pole.
Hence you can find here six possible definitions of force, and if you get
into the nuclear strong and weak things, you might come up with a few more.
 
Now if you look closely at some of our physical "constants" such as G, e0,
and mu0, you may see them for what they really are -- fudge factors which
are required to match the values and units in various different definitions
of force. We haven't even bothered to come up with a fudge factor for the
acceleration of electric charge, F = qa, because no one has been able to
resolve the apparently relatively simple question of the composition of
electron mass -- how much is due to charge and energy in the self-electric
field, and how much of the electron's mass is due to something else, and
what else?  As for the force due to acceleration of magnetic charge --
forget about it. They say it doesn't exist.
 
The values we use for our physical constants, probably say something
important about the properties of space, but these "constants" are not
properties themselves. They are more or less indicators of our physical
ineptitude -- our inability to unify electromagnetic forces with
inertial and gravitational forces.
 
Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 21:56:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21402;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:51:59 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:51:59 -0800
Message-ID: <34AB2DE2.189F skylink.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 21:47:14 -0800
From: Robert Stirniman <robert skylink.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation
References: <01bd15fd$b64dc0a0$LocalHost default> <34AB1BEF.40B8@skylink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"vjKSr1.0.KE5.-xogq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14386
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick J. Sparber wrote:
> I think you just shot down interferometry,
> optics, and Snell's Law.   :-)
> sin theta(1)/sin theta(2) = (e1/e0)^1/2 = c/v1 
Hi Fred. I don't see how being able to measure the speed of light
in a vacuum or a material medium, in any way invalidates Snell's
law or anything else.
 
What you see in the above equation (e0/e1) is a ratio. You do not need
to know the absolute value or the units of e0 or e1. In any case e0 and
e1 are themselves merely ratios, and what you have above is a ratio of
ratios.
 
e0 is by DEFINITION the ratio of the force between two arbitrarily
defined amounts of electric charge (coulombs) located an arbitrarily
defined distance apart (meter) along with a geometric factor of 4Pi,
all divided by the force that it takes to increase the velocity of an
arbitrarily defined amount of inertial mass (kilogram) at an arbitrarily
defined amount of acceleration (meter/sec^2).
 
Whatever value we come up with for e0 is a completely arbitrary thing.
It is the represented ratio e0, that tells us something important -- a
comparison the amount and dimensions of inertial force with the amount
and dimenstions of the electrostatic coulomb force.
 
Regards,
Robert Stirniman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:19:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09067;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:16:10 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:16:10 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ZPE question for Hal
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:14:29 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34bd2efc.25283863 mail.eisa.net.au>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"QebOL3.0.XD2.eIpgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14388
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hal,

You have in the past stated that either standing (stationary?) waves
or travelling waves would fit equally well in you formulae.
Would this be equally true of longitudinal waves?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:19:21 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09079;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:16:13 -0800 (PST)
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:14:25 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34b924b2.22648826 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530500b0cfb99228fb [199.237.131.233]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0cfb99228fb [199.237.131.233]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"Wc-bf2.0.nD2.gIpgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14389
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:05:14 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>Electrolysis of hydrobromic with hydroflouric acid might produce excess
>heat, maybe at a very high voltage, and at a high frequency in order to
>keep the freed  H and Br and F together.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
I tried electrolyzing water at high frequencies from 1-20 kHZ, and a
voltage of about 80 volt (peak-peak) square wave AC (current was a
couple of hundred mA). I thought this might produce an excess of H2
and O2 gasses. To my untrained eye, it didn't appear to (even when
KHCO3 was added), though I made no measurements. (I expected fierce
bubbling, and got only a fine curtain). Didn't think to look for
temperature increase. "Experiment" wasn't set up for it anyway.
I was looking for a gross effect, and didn't get it.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:20:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24944;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:16 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:16 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts)
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:14:23 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34aeee2c.8689080 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530501b0cfa906dbfb [199.237.131.225]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530501b0cfa906dbfb [199.237.131.225]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"QAeEa.0.P56.nHpgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14387
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:19:17 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>I think the charge on the conductive wall will equalize in less than a
>picosecond.  If not, computers should not work so well.  It is also of

While it's true that the excess charge gets smeared out, it still
leaves the wall with an overall positive charge. Successive collisions
with K+ ions would add to the total charge, until a point was reached
where no more K+ would approach.
At least this might appear to happen were it not for the NOx-
neutralising the charge.

However in order to actually neutralise the charge, the NOx- has to be
oxidised.
That means that we are looking at two redox reactions that look like
this:

K+ + wall -> K + wall+

wall+ + NOx- -> wall + "NOx"
----------------------------  +
K+ + NOx- -> K + "NOx"

However we know already that the formation of KNOx is strongly
exothermic, hence such a "backward" reaction would not run without
heat being added, and even then, only very reluctantly.
This leads me to suspect, that in fact little if any K+ will actually
be reduced when contacting the wall.
I think a more likely scenario would be simple sublimation of the salt
on the wall (provided that the wall temperature is low enough to
permit this - not desirable of course).
[snip]
>>I was thinking more along the lines of ions being replenished by the
>>continued evaporation of the salt.
>>[snip]
>
>
>Evaporation won't ionize the KNO3 very much, it will it?  Even at 2000 C?

I don't know whether it does or not, but it is obvious that this is
the reason why Mills et al  include it in the experiment (i.e. as a
source of K+ ions in the gas phase).
So they must know something I don't. Perhaps one of our resident
chemists can answer this? (If anyone besides you and I is still
bothering to follow this thread).
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:20:44 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25027;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:29 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:14:28 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34bb2c59.24608149 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <3cecab6d.34aa23c6 aol.com> <34AAB474.4873@keelynet.com>
In-Reply-To: <34AAB474.4873 keelynet.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"sRjr82.0.v66._Hpgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14391
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:09:08 -0800, Jerry wrote:
[snip]
>We are like flies caught on a screen to be held to the earth by this 
>inflowing wind.  If we can deflect this wind around us (remember it flows 
>INTO us ALSO), then we could reduce our effective weight, even eliminate 
>it.

Perhaps the trick lies in getting the aether to flow around in a
gigantic vortex, leaving a "vacuum" in the middle (much like a
tornado) :-)}}}

>
>This is the theory which fits Keely's neutral centre claims and the one I 
>think is closest to the reality.  Proof will come from controlled weight 
>loss or elimination using technology.  Seeya!
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>         Voice : (214) 324-8741  /   FAX :  (214) 324-8741
>   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:21:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24977;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:21 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:15:21 -0800
From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 06:14:26 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <34ba29ae.23925721 mail.eisa.net.au>
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]>
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"FCf_H3.0.866.tHpgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14390
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:07:50 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote:
[snip]
>In this configuration, all forces are symmetrical and balanced.  However,
>there is more force on the mirror at F2 from the concave mirror side than
>from space at the right.  That is becuase the mirror focuses energy from
>the right onto mirror F2.  The same is true in mirror image for mirror F1.
[snip]
So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving
mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:45:34 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29255;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:41:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:41:34 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com, haspden@iee.org
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:06:38 -0800
Subject: Re: Laithwaite Obituary
Message-ID: <19971231.223000.12094.1.tv juno.com>
References: <v01530500b0d05562689f [199.237.131.242]> <34AAE9F5.3D2F@keelynet.com>
	<34AAE401.21C3 math.ucla.edu>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.49
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-13,23-24,30-31,38-39,45-46,51-52,55-56,69-70,
	72-79,81-143
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"1gXQm1.0.r87.Qgpgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14393
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Fellow space energy researchers,

It is with great sadness that I receive news of the passing of another
great researcher Professor Eric Laithwaite.  Prof. Laithwaite should go
in the annals of invention as the inventor of the linear induction motor
that drives some of today's electric trains and one of the pioneers in
research leading to a practical ambient fluctuation coherence technology
(thermal and/or zero point free energy devices).

A copy of Professor Eric Laithwaites' obituary is now posted at;

   http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/laithobi.htm
( Courtesy of Jerry Decker )

  I never met Dr. Laithwaite in person but I corresponded with him once
and I felt a kinship with him ever since I spotted an article in an
encyclopedia published in England and in the united States called "The
Science and Invention Encyclopedia".  The article was titled "Inertial
Propulsion".  It was about Dr. Laithwaite's gyroscopic inertial
propulsion device.  I was in high school when I first saw it and was so
intrigued that I began calling anyone I could for more information.  The
article did not give Laithwaite's name but the publisher in England sent
me the references I needed after I sent them a telegram message (no free
EMAIL in those days).

I found that one aerospace company here in California (Ford
Aronuetronics) had investigated inertial propulsion in the 1960's but had
concluded that it would not work for space flight.  Of course an inertial
propulsion device would apparently violate Newton's 2nd ( and 3rd) Laws
and was dismissed by most physicists and engineers out of hand without
further investigation.

I once had the opportunity to see a Lathwaite device built by Scott
Strachan it definitely decreased in weight when placed on a spring
balance.  However, I was not convinced that this was a fair way to test
it since a spring balance is not linear.   I think a pendulum test is far
better.  Basically a long swing hung from the tall building such as an
aircraft hangar.  If it could cause of an average center of mass
displacement, that would be far more impressive.

I have also held a Thornson inertial propulsion device in my hands while
it was operating.  It sure felt like it was pulling more in one direction
than the other.  But again this was only a subjective observation.  The
swing test would be far more impressive.   As far as I know no inertial
propulsion device has passed the swing test.  In other words they could
not maintain an average offset of the swing.

They will drive boat across swimming pools though.  But that is because
they are reacting against the water.   There is kind of bulldozer that is
used in swamps that can push trees over, it uses rotating offset masses
that rotate at some acute angle relative to the ground such that they
cause the back of the dozer to bite into the mud on the backstroke.

I would take inertial propulsion with a grain of salt until it is proven
by some kind of test such as the swing test.   I remain unconvinced but
open to the possibility of reacting against the aether.

Dr. Laithwaite also believed in the possibility of tapping the energy
that keeps the atom in orbit around the atom (zero point energy) through
the use of  ferromagnetism.  He once observed a strange event when he was
running a peculiar motor that he invented that made a washer spin around
inside a drum.  On several occasions and in particular once when
demonstrated to a large crowd the motor continued to run for about a
minute after he turned it off and it even started to speed up !   Dr.
Laithwaite was so intrigued by this chance observation that he sought to
try to replicate it in reliable way.  As far as I know, he did not
succeed.  However he remained convinced that there was more to
ferromagnetism than we presently understand.  He was definitely a
believer in the possibility free energy devices.  He would have been
right at home on VORTEX-L and FREENRG-L.

Please pray for the comfort of Dr. Laithwaite's wife and children at this
time of sorrow.

Tim Vaughan
( tv juno.com )




On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:32:01 -0800 Barry Merriman <barry math.ucla.edu>
writes:
>Jerry wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A copy of Professor Eric Laithwaites' obituary 
>
>Well, another one bites the dust, as they say. No 
>disrespect to Laithwaite intended---its just the
>way of "over unity" inventors and their inventions.
>
>I was always singularly perplexed by Laithwaite: he's
>clearly an excellent electrical engineer, and was 
>respected, having the ear of academics 
>and the public for at least a few years, and he claimed to be able to 
>make rather obvious weight reductions in simple fashion,
>yet none of his work seems to have been replicated 
>or to have spread far beyond himself. What to make of it?
>Don't know, but given his particular history its hard to 
>imagine that he had really discovered a new inertial effect....
>
>> 
>> ....he claimed 5 pounds lost from a 20 pound spinning mass.
>
>Yes, but why were there be any need for this to remain 
>a "claim"? Such an effect should be easy to replicate.
>
>> 
>> 
>> ...small jerky steps are one of the problems with mechanical claims 
>of
>> gravity reduction...these spikes....[are] the mechanical analogue 
>> of the same error as seen in some free energy devices that are 
>> truly measuring many short lived spikes, and which 'appear' [OU] 
>
>Jerry makes a very interesting connection here: many such devices
>are based on strongly fluctuating forces. In the electrical
>case, since the system is (presumably) conservative,
>these I*V fluctuations truly add to exactly zero, but
>the errors introduced by measuring equipment yield sums that do not
>add exactly to zero, the error depending on how well resolved the
>I*V spikes are. In contrast, in the mechanical case, since 
>the system is in frictional contact with its surroundings, and
>friction is not a conservative force, the
>sum of all the frictional force spikes does not have to be 
>zero, and the device can push itself along in a form that is
>essentially no different than walking. But the spiky-ness
>of the forces makes it superficially look like the net frictional
>force is zero, because many spikes nearly do sum to zero.
>
>So, in both cases the
>spiky-ness of the system output is the source of the misperception,
>tho in one case its because its hard to get spikey data 
>points to sum to zero when they should, and in the other because 
>the spikey effects nearly do sum to zero.
>
>
>-- 
>Barry Merriman
>Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
>Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
>email: barry math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 22:45:36 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29160;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:41:19 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:41:19 -0800
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, haspden@iee.org
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:22:48 -0800
Subject: Checkout the ideas of Dr. Harold Aspden
Message-ID: <19971231.223001.12094.2.tv juno.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.49
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,8-9,13-19
From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
Resent-Message-ID: <"2Pu9p1.0.T77.Egpgq" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14392
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Fellow space energy researchers,

Another energy pioneer that we should pay more attention to is Dr. Harold
Aspden.
Dr. Aspden is credited by Paulo Correa to be the author of a theory to
explain the phenomena involved in the Pulsed Abnormal Glow Discharge
Device, one of the most impressive examples of what may be a real free
energy device in existance now.  ( see:
http://www.globalserve.net/~lambdac/ )

Aspden is also an expert in ferromagnetism and believes, as did the late
Professor Eric Laithwaite, that ferromagnetism has properties that can be
used to the ambient fluctuations that surround us, as thermal and
electromagnetic zero point energy.

Dr. Aspden has an excellant web site, it is:
               http://www.energyscience.co.uk

Tim Vaughan
( tv juno.com )

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Dec 31 23:19:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13268;
	Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:16:58 -0800 (PST)
Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:16:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-Id: <v01530500b0d0f330ea75 [199.237.131.223]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:19:07 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: sonic rocket?
Resent-Message-ID: <"bazeW3.0.DF3.eBqgq" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/14394
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>
>Perhaps the trick lies in getting the aether to flow around in a
>gigantic vortex, leaving a "vacuum" in the middle (much like a
>tornado) :-)}}}

How about some kind of venturi effect - like a spinning cylinder with a
close fitting "aether" foil on top.

Regards,

Horace Heffner