BETWEEN: Her Majesty the Queen --and-- Ernst Zundel
BEFORE: The Honourable Judge H. R. Locke and a Jury
The Court House
361 University Ave.
Toronto, Ontario
Canada
APPEARANCES:
P. Griffiths, Esq. For the Crown
D. Christie, Esq. For the Accused
**************
[--- R. Vrba sworn in as witness: Monday, January 21, 1985 at 2:45 p.m.]
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR. GRIFFITHS:
Q. Sir, I understand that you are now an associate professor in pharmacology at the University of British Columbia?
A. That's right.
Q. And that you have been in Canada for how long?
A. Since '67.
Q. 1967?
A. Yes, with the exception of two years when I was in Boston.
Q. And before 1967 I understand you were in England for a period of time?
A. That's right. Since 1960 through 1967 I was on the staff of the Medical Research Council of the United Kingdom.
Q. What is your field of interest in particular?
A. My specialty was the chemistry of the brain.
Q. Chemistry of the brain?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have a doctorate?
A. I have a doctorate in chemistry, and a higher degree, a candidate of immunochemistry -- that means the chemical composition -- of the brian [brain].
Q. Before you went to England where were you; what country were you living in?
A. I was born in Czechoslovakia on September 11, 1924. I lived in Czechoslovakia until 1939 when Czechoslovakia was dismembered, and from '39 onwards I lived in a puppet Slovakia in a puppet state which was under German rule with local underlings ruling until 1942.
In June of 1940 [1942] I have been deported to the concentration camp of Maidanek where I was fourteen days.
Q. You were two weeks in Maidanek?
A. Two weeks.
Q. And from Maidanek were you taken someplace else?
A. On 20 June, 1942, I was put into a cattle truck and taken to Auschwitz concentration camp where I arrived on June 30, 1942, and I stayed in Auschwitz until April 7, 1944, when I escaped and returned to Slovakia.
Q. All right. We will hear about your escape in due course. We have heard that there are a number of different camps that are called Auschwitz. Can you tell us which camp you were taken to?
A. I was taken to the camp which was called Auschwitz I. I was in that camp from 30 June, 1942 until 15th January, 1943.
Q. All right. And did you have some ---
A. And from 15 January, 1943, I was transferred to the camp called Auschwitz II, which is called Birkenau.
THE COURT: Which is called what?
THE WITNESS: Birkenau. And that was also officially called Auschwitz II, and there I was until April 7, 1944.
Q. Can you tell us whether you did any work when you were in Auschwitz I?
A. In Auschwitz I?
Q. Yes. The main camp.
A. In Auschwitz I, for the first two months, this means for the first two years, two months, in July and August, I have been working on an enterprise which was called Buna, which was not far from Auschwitz, and it later was built up into Auschwitz III, and was supposed to be rubber, synthetic rubber factory.
Q. All right. Were you working in the factory?
A. No. It was a building site, and the complex belonged to E. [I] G. Farben, who used to borrow slave labour from Auschwitz I; and I was taken there every morning as a slave labourer, and brought in the evening to Auschwitz I for two months, roughly.
Q. All right. I would like you to describe for us, if you can, what a day would be like when you were working at Buna.
A. At Buna?
Q. Yes. First of all, what time in the morning would you be awakened?
A. We would be woken up at three o'clock in the morning and marched up to a train which was in front of the gate of Auschwitz I. We would be counted when we came out from the barrack, then we would be counted when we came out from the gate, and then we would be counted again when we entered the barracks, and then we waited until the wagons moved to the building site, and the train moved to a station which I remember was called Dwory, and there we were unloaded and marched to a building site which was in the distance of approximately three kilometers.
So this whole procedure of the travel in the train that we were loaded in numbers, a hundred people or so to the wagon, from three o'clock in the morning we would start working approximately to eight o'clock in the morning.
Q. Now, from three o'clock in the morning until eight o'clock in the morning had you been given anything to eat or drink?
A. Nothing.
Q. Were you given anything before you start work?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. We worked from eight to twelve under a certain order of work, and at twelve o'clock, from twelve o'clock to one, we had a pause, and then we were given a litre of soup for five. This means, the soup for five people was given in one plate for five, and without spoons, and another plate was given for five which contained some sort of tea, which was the only liquid which we could take -- water was not available.
Q. Was there any water available at the construction site that you could drink?
A. There was water available on the construction site, but it was known that the water was infected with diarrhea bacteria, and we were warned by all the prisoners that anybody who will drink from it will die.
Q. Did you see anybody drink from it?
A. Many drank and many died. In other words, those who couldn't overcome the thirst in August and who drank that water was done for.
Q. Was there any security at the Buna works when you were working there?
A. Well, we were constantly being counted, and as we came out of the train we marched to to the Buna quota with the Waffen S.S. guards -- they were armed guards -- on both sides of the column; and when we reached the building site, then the whole building site was surrounded by those S.S.
So at the building site we were left more to ourselves, more or less, but the building site, however, was divided into small quadrangles which were about ten meters long. And at each quadrangle was standing an S.S. man guard with rifle in the hand, and we were told that nobody can go outside of his rectangle in which he is supposed to go. This means, anybody who crossed that rectangle, which was clearly marked, was shot.
Q. Did you see anybody cross that rectangle?
A. Well, I saw frequently being shot people crossing that rectangle, because one of the jokes was that the prisoners were guarded by ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I think ---
THE WITNESS: By the S.S. guards ---
THE COURT: Excuse me.
MR. CHRISTIE: Excuse me, please. Your Honour, this is not someone who so far has been qualified to give hearsay, and I think we are getting into the realm of jokes and stories and statements that otherwise should not be given. I'd like the witness to confine himself just to what he saw and what he knows for himself.
THE COURT: What do you say to that, Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Well, I appreciate what my friend is saying. I agree with him, although the joke is a physical joke that is visual that he can describe what he saw.
THE COURT: Well, if he can do it in that way, I don't think that Mr. Christie will object to that; but if he does it in another way, he might.
Q. (MR. GRIFFITHS): Just describe for us what you saw.
A. The German prisoners who were professional criminals and were marked as such with a green triangle would come to individual prisoners, take off their hat, the prisoner's hat, and threw it over the perimeter, the ten meter perimeter, telling him, "Run for the hat." If the prisoner did not run for the hat, then he would be beaten with wooden sticks for not obeying the order of the Kapo; if he ran for the hat, he would be shot down by the S.S. men.
I am perfectly aware that this is not a joke, but it was considered a joke there, and that's why I use the inappropriate word "joke." I apologize for it. So in this way quite a number of people were killed during a day, also people who claimed that they cannot carry on with their hard work.
For instance, we had to carry cement in paper satchels.
Q. Bags of cement.
A. Bags of cement, yes. They are considerably heavy. I do not know exactly what their weight was, but they were standard bags which I see, and one had to carry that bag of cement over a certain distance running. And those who claimed that they cannot run any more were sort of propelled or encouraged to run by beating with clubs; and those who refused afterward were simply beaten so long until they gave any sign of life. And then, in the evening, we collected numbers very carefully so that the numbers of prisoners who worked there, alive, had to come into the camp. The mortality per day could end up five to ten per cent of the column.
Q. Five to ten per cent of the total?
A. Yes. This means the chances to survive over three weeks on that working place were considered to be slim.
Q. After you have the soup and the tea at lunchtime, do you go back to work in the afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us -- I appreciate you never watched. Can you tell us how long you'd be working in the afternoon, how long the working day would be?
A. Well, at twelve o'clock a siren sounded, and at one o'clock again a siren was sounded. The one marching would start and the other marching would end of the working day. Again at noon another siren sounded, but this I don't know exactly what time, but it was our rule that a prisoner shouldn't be kept outside, even guarded, in dark. So this means that we were supposed to come back into the camp before the sun set.
Q. Now, you said it was about three kilometers from the Buna works to where the train would pick you up.
A. Yes.
Q. And how would you, the people that were injured or had died during the day, how would they get to the train?
A. Well, the dead and the injured were carried by the prisoners who were not dead. In other words, say we went there fifteen hundred people in the morning, but each of those hundred people had sepaarate Kapos, and that Kapo had the list of his prisoners, and he wouldn't move out from the building state, building place, until all his prisoners which he had a list of by numbers wouldn't be collected. So this means we were again on a certain place with a certain Kapo, all hundred of us, alive or dead. And then the column was formed and when the column was formed the Kapo picked out those who would carry those who cannot go. So we had some who claimed that they will go if they are supported, and so they were put into the march column, and then there were some who were dead, and then there were some who were dying, or definitely not able to walk even after being encouraged to do so with clubbing, and they were carried by the prisoners in such a way that one prisoner would have his head over the shoulder, and the other prisoner would have his legs over the shoulder. So the two prisoners carried a third one, either a dead one or a dying one.
Q. Something happened, Dr. Vrba, at the end of two months, approximately, at Buna, that got you out of Buna?
A. Yes. I got out from Buna under the following conditions:
The camp Auschwitz I, until that time, consisted of two parts with a wall was decided in the middle, and behind that wall were women. Mostly the women were from Slovakia. Slovakian and Jewish girls. Some of them I knew, and there was conversation. Now, there broke out a typhus epidemy in that female camp, and also there was a typhus epidemy in the male camp, and there was a danger that by going to Buna -- and we had to cross various villages, we will carry the typhus out from the camp. So the workings at Buna was stopped for a few days, and the women from the women camp, female camp, were taken away. As far as I know, they were taken to ---
Q. No, don't tell us -- only tell us what you saw with your own eyes.
A. They were taken away.
Q. All right.
A. After they were taken away, the barracks were disinfected. After the barracks were disinfected, all of us who were men, in our camp number one, had to dress out naked, and we were naked for approximately one or two days during which we were given showers and we were shaven all over the body -- this means hair and body hair, pubic hair, and so on. And then a hole was made through this wall of the ex-female camp, and we were let in one by one into this new camp, naked and disinfected.
However, before this happened we had to go through a commission, and this was a medical commission where they should have proven that we are healthy. The proof consisted of the following test:
There was a doctor and an S.S. man with a lamp, because it was going on day and night. So by that time I was proven to be -- I was supposed to be medically examined. I was put in front of this reflector and I was ordered to run about twenty yards one way and back. Now, those who wobbled during those twenty yards, which is a characteristic sign of typhus ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Excuse me, Your Honour. I am aware of this particular narrative and I am aware that at this juncture certain statements, in my understanding, will embark into the realm of hearsay, and if my friend wishes, I can speak about it in the absence of the jury, but I would ask my friend to direct the witness in that regard.
THE COURT: Do you know what is coming, Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, Your Honour. I must say I am not sure what Mr. Christie is concerned about. Perhaps Mr. Christie can tell me whether this warning will be satisfactory.
Q. Just don't tell us what other people said.
A. No. I ---
THE COURT: Just listen.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Just describe what you saw.
A. I described exactly what I saw.
Q. Not what you heard, but what you saw.
A. Yes. Until now I described only what I saw.
Q. Okay.
A. I was ....
THE COURT: You were running back and forth, did you say, for how long?
THE WITNESS: Just twenty yards forth and twenty yards back.
THE COURT: How many times?
THE WITNESS: Once.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: And on judging how I was running, the commission decided.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: All right. Did they put you in a group?
A. They put me in a group which did not run too well.
Q. All right.
A. Because I was hurting by my shoes; I had trouble with my feet.
Q. Were you able to change groups?
A. Well, it was dark, and a Polish Kapo came to me, who knew me, and he said to me ---
Q. Don't tell us what he said, but he said something to you?
A. He said to me ---
THE COURT: No, you can't say what he said. Sorry, Dr. Vrba. Don't tell us what he said, but he said something to you.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: And were you able to move your position?
A. Yes. He pretended that he is beating me and put me in the position of those he thought to be perfectly healthy.
Q. All right. Did you see what happened to those who wobbled during their run?
A. We were standing until cars came. This means lorries. And then people were ordered to enter the lorries and the lorries left the camp.
Q. Did you see any of them again?
A. Never.
Q. Did you know anybody in that group?
A. Several.
Q. Now, you were in the so-called healthy group.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go back to work at Buna?
A. No. Next morning, after the so-called unhealthy were eliminated from the camp, we were taken to a hole between the male and the female camp in the wall, a hole in the wall, and there were again two men who disinfected us from top to bottom with a rag in lysol, and we entered, then, naked, this disinfected camp of the women and I stayed there, in that camp, in Block IV, in a different attachment of group, until 15 January, 1943.
Q. All right. Now, many of these words are new to us, so I am going to ask you to describe some words as we go along. What is a "block?"
A. "Block" means a house in Auschwitz I. It was called a block.
Q. How many people would be living in a block?
A. There would be a variation, from five hundred to twelve hundred.
Q. How many were in your block, Block IV?
A. In Block IV, the situation I cannot exactly say, because I was put into the Block IV of the souterrain of Block IV.
Q. Is that underground?
A. Underground, yes. What is it called?
A cellar. Then there was the first floor, the ground floor, and
then there was an upper floor. And we were put into the ground
floor under a new Kommando which was called Kanada.
Q. Is that Kanada with a "K"?
A. "K", that's right. As it is spelled in Europe.
Q. And was there a German word for that Kommando as well?
A. There was a German word which was
called Aufraumungskommando, which means clearing command, or clearing-up
command. And we were several hundred in that cell area. It was
forbidden for me to go to the first floor, ground floor, or to
the second floor. So I cannot tell you how many were on the upper
floors; but in the down floor I estimate that there might have
been, at that moment, three hundred of more people in Block IV,
Auschwitz I.
Q. Can you tell us in general what the
word "Kommando" means?
A. Whenever the Nazis or the ruling order
of the S.S. created a particular group, a task group, that group
was called a Kommando. This meant a working group.
Q. A working group.
A. Yes. It was also sometimes they called Arbeitkommando.
Q. Yes.
A. Work commando. And each Kommando has
a special title, according to the work they were doing.
Q. All right. I am not going to use the
German word. I will use the more familiar word, Kanada.
A. Kanada, it was known in the camp,
yes. The Kanadakommando.
Q. Can you tell us what you did with
the Kanadakommando?
A. I think I should show it, perhaps
on a ....
Q. All right. Just a minute.
A. But I can describe it without.
Q. Right.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, can I speak
to you in the absence of the jury for just a moment, please?
THE COURT: Excuse us just a moment, members
of the jury, please.
--- The jury retires. 3:10 p.m.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Dr. Vrba has prepared, Your Honour, a number of transparencies
that would be suitable for an overhead projector and screen which
I have in my office and can have in the courtroom very quickly.
The transparencies, Your Honour, are of maps of the surrounding
area, and more immediate maps of the particular camps
to be able to show -- the purpose of them is to be able to show
his movements within the camp and his opportunity to observe various
things within the camp.
He has brought a grease pencil, and the
transparencies, Your Honour, would be available to be made as
exhibits, as marked by Dr. Vrba. At this point there are no additional
markings on them. They are simply maps, outlines.
THE COURT: What are transparencies?
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Do you have them here,
Doctor?
THE COURT: And has Mr. Christie seen them?
MR. GRIFFITHS: No, he has not, Your Honour.
MR. CHRISTIE: I am sure if I just glanced
at them -- and I am quite delighted my friend is doing this because
it will help the jury to understand ....
THE COURT: Thank you. Do you have some
more?
THE WITNESS: Yes, please.
THE COURT: We have all that are going
to be relevant here, so that we don't wast time?
MR. GRIFFITHS: I think those are the ones
that are relevant to the discussion.
THE WITNESS: May I have a look if I gave
you the relevant ones? Those are relevant. The other ones I would
like to see. These are relevant.
MR. CHRISTIE: I was prepared to introduce
some of these very same documents, or attempt to, myself. So I don't object to any
of these.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Now, just so that we
are clear, Dr. Vrba, so His Honour knows, Mr. Christie knows, there
are two transparencies that are framed in white.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what the source of
those two transparencies are? Who drew those?
A. I drew those in June -- in April 25th,
1944, in Slovakia, after I escaped from Auschwitz.
Q. All right.
A. And I received the copies from the
Executive Office of the President of the United States of America,
dated November '44, and those are pages number 40 ---
Q. My question, really, Dr. Vrba, is whether
you recognize those, and you say yes, you did those yourself.
A. That's right.
Q. Now, the other documents, or maps
-- and there are five of them ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... can you tell us the source of
those?
A. Those are the maps which have been
published during the trial at which I was a witness. This was
in 1964 in Frankfurt where war criminals from Auschwitz were tried,
and I have been there as a witness, and that court used maps in
order to illustrate what the witnesses are saying so that the
jury could follow photographically the movements.
Q. All right. So these are not maps prepared
by you, but you have them out of a book, do you?
A. Yes, I have them out of the book which
is called -- two books. One book is Auschwitz Process, [Prozess]
they are taken from this book. And the rest of them is taken from
a recent publication which is published by Professor Martin Gilbert,
and it is called Auschwitz and the Allies, a book
which appeared in 1981 and brought additional maps, and I made
copies because they would enable me easier to describe my movements
within the complex of the camp.
Q. These are not on the transparencies
here yet.
A. I think they are, some of them.
Q. These are the ones you asked me to
make the transparencies ---
A. No. The ones I asked you to make the
transparencies are those two.
Q. The ones from Dr. Gilbert are which,
can you clarify? Sorry, Your Honour. Just so we are clear as to
the source of the material.
A. Plans from Auschwitz, page 129. This
is from the court in Auschwitz, this map.
Q. All right. And that is a map called,
"Plane [Plan] von Auschwitz".
THE COURT: As long as that is identified
by you for the moment, Mr. Griffiths.
Gentlemen, can I do this? I am satisfied
on what I've heard from counsel for the accused as well as from
this witness that there doesn't appear, at this moment, to be
any objection to this witness referring to these transparencies, some
of which he has sworn he created himself, others created for him,
and all of them have been seen by Mr. Christie. I am not sure that
Mr. Christie has examined them all at any depth at the moment,
he never having seen them before. I am thinking of adjourning
now for ten minutes or so. The jury can drink some coffee, Mr
Griffiths and Mr. Christie can examine these transparencies, and
I think we are far enough down the line, gentlemen, that I could
reasonably anticipate that there will be a consent to this witness
referring to these things as he testifies.
Does that sound reasonable to you, Mr
Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes, sir. Indeed.
THE COURT: Does that sound reasonable
to you?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes. Just one other matter
that I would like to get assistance from Your Honour, so that
I don't waste any court's time, is that if we did have some consent,
I would like to have everything set up for when the jury comes
back in, and I guess the question would be, physically, the best
way to do that, I was going to suggest that, perhaps, I set the
screen up down towards where the television is, and the projector
would be here or in the middle of the courtroom.
THE COURT: When you say "here," you are talking about ....
MR. GRIFFITHS: Crown counsel table, which
would mean Dr. Vrba would be down near the projector while he is
giving his testimony concerning the maps, Your Honour.
THE COURT: Does he mark on the transparency
itself which will be on the projector projecting on the screen?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes. He marks on the transparency,
and it shows on the screen.
THE WITNESS: I can mark on a transparency
which is empty over that transparency.
THE COURT: That is something that I think
can be discussed with counsel, Dr. Vrba.
The only other problem I have, gentlemen,
is this. The accused has to see precisely what is going on, Mr
Christie has to see what is going on, and of no little importance
is that the jury must see the same thing. You might want to consider
putting the projector on counsel table behind you so that the
line of vision of all the jurors ---
MR. GRIFFITHS: Projected up into the corner,
Your Honour, perhaps.
THE COURT: That is something you and
Mr. Christie can work out. As long as the jury has the best view
along with the accused, I am content, as long as counsel are.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I think we are ad idem,
Your Honour, Mr. Christie and I, that there was one transparency
that Mr. Christie was concerned about, and I agree with him. It
was something showing things after Dr. Vrba had left Auschwitz, so we are not including
that in the group that Dr. Vrba will be referring to.
THE COURT: Is that correct, Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: I didn't quite hear my friend.
THE COURT: He said there is one transparency
that is not going to be used that you have seen and that will
not be used.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. I have suggested to
my friend that I have twelve copies of a photocopy of the gentleman's
map drawn in 1944 which he referred to, and I also have photocopies,
twelve, available for the jury so they might follow along, of
the schematic plan of Auschwitz II, of Birkenau, which I had intended
to tender and I have offered to provide now, if it meets with
the approval of both the witness and the Crown, so that the jury
will have something in their hands to follow along with, even
afterwards. I think it probably will help them, and that is why
I am offering it.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: I am obliged to Mr. Christie
for his suggestion, Your Honour. I think the reason why I have
selected to do it this way is that Dr. Vrba and I were not having
a huddled conversation at the witness box, and we all know what
we are talking about and where it is, and I prefer to do that.
With rare exceptions I don't like to put documents directly in
the hands of the jury. I think it is distracting for them from
the evidence.
THE COURT: I think at the appropriate time Mr. Christie, if you wish, you can
ask that they be distributed to the jury, especially when cross-examination
time comes around.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.
--- The jury enters. 3:45 p. m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
In the absence of the jury, Your Honour, I have set up an overhead
projector and a screen, and Dr. Vrba has some transparencies that
he's made on some various maps of Auschwitz I and 2 and the surrounding
area and will be using the screen and the maps to help describe
his evidence in a loud, clear voice next to the projector.
THE COURT: Yes, he may do that.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, when
you are looking at the screen that appears before you, if any
of your number have difficulty seeing what's on the screen, please
don't hesitate to hold up your hand and we will make sure that
you can see it. I am just not sure how the logistics of all this
will work until we try it.
------
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Dr. Vrba, the question
that I asked you, I believe, immediately prior to the break ---
THE COURT: Just hold it, Mr
Griffiths. Dr. Vrba, would you please
stand on this side, towards our Clerk, with your back to me and
facing the accused and the jury so that everybody can hear. How
is that? Is that all right with you?
THE WITNESS: It is perfectly fine.
THE COURT: Can the jury see that? Go
ahead.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, I believe that the question
that I asked you was what it was that you were working on in the
Kanadakommand, what duties that entailed. You are living, you
told us, in Auschwitz I from June 30, 1942, to January 15, 1943.
Do you have a map or an overall plan there that would show both
Auschwitz II, which we've been calling Birkenau?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. All right. Would you put that on the
screen, then, please?
A. This is the map as I could reconstruct
it from memory roughly after my escape. There is another map which
is more exact which was produced by the Court in Frankfurt and
copied from books.
Q. And you have some copies of other
maps here, do you?
A. Right.
Q. And first of all, can you tell us
which way is north and which way is south on your map?
A. On my map south happens to be here,
on this projection, south happens to be here. North is here. East
is here and west is here. In other words, it was in my mind, due to some error in my education
at the age of ten, £I had a sort of ---
Q. So where do you always put "south"
on your maps?
A. Well, if I draw it by heart, say if
I see a place, then I would draw it as I draw it now.
Q. At the bottom.
A. No. At the top here.
Q. The writing, Dr. Vrba, just so I am
clear, the writing is not upside down, so if you usually put "south"
at the top, wouldn't that be the reverse?
A. Yes. I am afraid I have made you an
error because of how this is positioned.
Q. It is different from what shows on
the screen.
A. Yes.
Q. "South" is at the top, "North"
is at the bottom.
A. South is at the top, right. South
is this way.
Q Okay.
A. I'm sorry for this because this is
a mirror. I wasn't aware of it. If I read it this way, then "south"
is here, and "east" is here, and "north" is
here.
Q. Thank you, Doctor.
A. Sorry for this.
Q. All right. Now, as we are looking
at the map now, the map you drew, which is the Auschwitz I and
which is the Auschwitz II camp?
A. At that time, when I was in Auschwitz from June 30 to January 15, the camp,
Auschwitz I, is this. This is the so-called, this is where we
were overnight. If you wish, I can show you this small piece magnified.
Q. Okay. We will go to the details as
we go on, Dr. Vrba. This is where the Auschwitz I camp is.
A. The Auschwitz I camp is, therefore,
here.
Q. There's I. Now, where's Birkenau on
your map?
A. Birkenau on my map is here. This whole
complex. But this complex I did not see in 1942. I saw that complex
for the first time only on one visit in 1942 December, and lived
in this complex from 15 January 1943 until the escape on 7 April,
1944.
Q. All right. How far apart is Auschwitz
1 from Auschwitz II?
A. It would be roughly the walk from
here.
Q. From the Auschwitz I camp ---
A. From the Auschwitz I camp to here
where there was a gate and a footpath, dirt road. I would judge
that it might have been three to four kilometers. I didn't measure
it with a yardstick, but I would think that it would be a one-hour
march.
Q. Now, while you were working in Auschwitz
I, you were working in the Kanadakommando.
A. Right.
Q. And where would you go to work for
the Kanadakommando?
A. The Kanadakommando consisting of the
day shift and of the night shift, I was given the night but I
worked also on day shifts because sometimes the shifts overlap.
Q. Well, would there be different jobs
according to day or night?
A. They have completely different jobs
according to day or night.
Q. Can you tell us, first of all, about
the night job?
A. Yes. For the night job, at any time
of the night we would be woken up in our barrack, which was Barrack
No. 4, which was approximately a year, and we would be told to
go to work, Rollkommando, which meant the rolling group, and guards
would come because it was night and we had to march out from this
Auschwitz I, which was guarded by electric fences and watchtowers
with machine guns, we would be marched out from here in a terraine
which, by the night, was not guarded. That crosses show the guard
position approximately by daytime only. By nighttime, the prisoners
were inside this compound, and the S.S. guards were not around.
By daytime the prisoners worked within this area, and therefore
by daytime there were no guards around the electric fences, but
there were guards standing around the whole camp. So that prisoners
could move around with a relative freedom within this perimeter.
Q. Now, you have labelled on the document,
on the map, it says, "Outer chain of sentry posts".
A. Yes.
Q. And were there, in fact, sentry posts?
A. By daytime there were sentry posts,
because by daytime many of those -- here, in Auschwitz, there
were many Blocks, many houses. Aufraumungkommando was in Block
IV, but there were many others who worked in these factories --
one Block to Krupp, one Block to Siemens, and one was called DAW,
which means Deutsche Ausrüstungswereke, which means German
armament factories. Consequently, by daytime, when they were taken
to the three factories, they were not guarded within those because
by daytime there was an outer guard around the whole perimeter,
and there was absolutely within the guard posts, between the towers,
it was absolutely sort of flat terrain, so that even a mouse would
have tried by daytime to cross this would be caught up in a crossfire,
machine guns.
Q. Were there any fences between that
outer chain of sentry posts?
A. No. There were no sentries here on
this outer post. There were just towers and a lot of inscriptions
in considerable vicinity around. It was written ---
Q. If you could tell us what the English
was ---
MR. CHRISTIE: I think it would be hearsay,
anyway, if it wasn't within the area where the witness was.
Q. Did you see the posts?
A. Yes, I have, because I was on one
occasion taken outside so that I could see it, and I saw the post
during my escape. So that the post we are saying, anybody approaches it by chance, without
authorization, will be shot without warning. So by daytime the
sentry chain was sort of considered to be impenetrable from the
inside or from outside.
Q. Now, during the nighttime you said
your rolling commando, or Kanadakommando, would be ordered up
sometimes at night; and where would you go and what would you
do?
A. We were taken first to the gate, and
they were waiting for us, a group of S.S., who took us to the
ramp. This means we were marched to this place.
Q. All right. And can you tell us what
that is on your map?
A. This means that this was a place which
was neither in Auschwitz I nor in Birkenau, but there was a neutral
corridor which, de facto, didn't belong to anybody from the camp,
because here is a main line from Vienna to Krakow.
Q. What kind of line?
A. Railway line. And here has been made
a ramp. This means a blind detachment. And we worked in the night
on this ramp, and I would now need to paint details in how it
was organized this particular ramp.
Q. All right. Go ahead.
A. Now, I shall concentrate only on this
piece.
THE COURT: The first transparency will
be the next exhibit.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 11: Transparency -- Approximate Situation Sketch of Auschwitz and Birkenau Camp Districts.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: And that is entitled,
"Approximate Situation Sketch of Auschwitz and Birkenau".
Now, you've put a clear transparency, have you, on the screen?
A. This is the main railway line. This
is south again. This is direction Vienna. This is north. From
this railway line, approximately here was Auschwitz railway station,
which I could see. From this, as a blind railway line, which was
held up here and which was approximately five hundred yards long,
meters long -- I didn't measure it with a yardstick, but roughly
fifty cattle trucks could be brought in with a locomotive, and
there was space enough for fifty cattle trucks, so I would say
the cattle truck is ten meters.
Q. Well, space enough for fifty cattle
cars.
A. Yes. And a locomotive. In front of
this railway line there was a wooden ramp. The wood ramp would
be, therefore, long, five hundred to seven hundred and fifty meters,
roughly, I would guess, half a mile, and was wide approximately
three to four meters like, say, two tables put together in the
width. And in front of -- this is a ramp, wooden ramp -- here
was a road which ended nowhere and which can be approximately
ten meters wide.
Now, our work, then, consisted in the
following order whenever we were taken there. Our work command,
from 20 August to 7 April, which makes roughly eight months, which makes roughly two
hundred and forty days, roughly. And I was taken out there for
this particular work not every day but sometimes three times a
day and night. Therefore, the number of times when I have done
such work I would say is certainly smaller than three hundred
times, but well over a hundred times of this particular job. May
I continue?
Q. Please go ahead.
A. We were brought and marched by our
guards into this road, and there we had to line in rows of five,
all of us, and we could dependant on the situation, anything from
a hundred to three hundred prisoners, standing there in hundreds,
with the guards standing around us holding guns in their hands,
rifles. We had to stnd [stand] so long until came a new
detachment of guards from a different place, and they marched
in from here and made a chain of guards which I will mark in blue
so that it is, perhaps, visible, or black. And this chain looked
like this.
Q. You are making circles on your sketch.
A. So this means that they were standing
-- this is a queue of chains, because we are in a neutral territory,
neither in Auschwitz I nor in Auschwitz II, but in between, in
that corridor, so that when they made this chain in this way they
had enclosed the ramp. They enclosed this ramp and they enclosed
their prisoners, but traffic between Vienna and Krakow could freely
move by. And I have seen the train with the dining room quite
frequently in the distance of about twenty yards from which I
stood, because the distance from this ramp to this line was quite small, maximum twenty meters.
However, because it was now considered
that we are enclosed and the whole place was lit with street lamps
so that it was light in daytime, these guards were now recalled.
Q. That's the guards around your group
from your Kommando?
A. That's right, because they were absolutely
unnecessary because there was a new chain of guards. When that
happened there came, on foot, a group from here. Here is the road,
a path, a footpath to the S.S. Kasernes.
Q. What is Kaserne?
A. Barracks. S.S. Barracks. And I can
show on the previous map of various places, and there first marched
a group of people who were dressed as S.S. uniforms as non-commissioned
officers. This means silver buttons. And when they were there,
then came, after them, a smaller group of individuals who were
dressed as S.S. officers -- gold here, gold here ---
Q. On the shoulders and on the chest?
A. Yes. Everything gold. Gold ring, everything.
They have white gloves. No clubs or anything in their hands. Whereas
a non-commissioned officer came in the hands with sticks but not
clubs, wooden bamboo walking sticks.
When everything was thus in place the
signal was given and a train containing a number of wagons was
brought to this ramp. This train came under guards, and the guards
came down from the train and the commander went to the commander
of the new guards which was standing here and give him
some papers and keys -- I understand papers and keys. After the
papers and keys were exchanged, the guard which brought in the
train was marched off because they didn't have anything there
to do, and the keys were distributed amongst the S.S. non-commissioned
officers, Waffen S.S., non-commissioned officers, who took a position
in front of each wagon, and those wagons were full of people.
These were cattle trucks in those cases, but not always. There
was a certain percentage where the people were brought in in a
normal third-class train wagons. This was a minority of cases,
say one out of twenty trains, one out of ten. Ninety percent came
in cattle trucks.
Now, because the cattle trucks were more
usual procedure, what happened was that while we were still standing
here, you are not allowed to move at all, but stand here under
the supervision of the Kapos. The S.S. opened the locks with which
the trains were locked, and suddenly all the wagons were opened
and we could see the mass of people inside.
Now, the trains were overcrowded with
people. I mean, I would judge that there was a variation. There
could have been sixty, there could have been eighty, and there
could have been hundred people at various occasions per train.
THE COURT: Per ....
THE WITNESS: Per truck, per cattle truck.
At that moment the S.S. started to shout at those people inside
who, for a long time, obviously, didn't see the doors open, "Alles
raus. Alles raus." -- "Everybody out. Everybody out.
"Alles ...." -- "Leave everything stand".
I mean, "no luggage take with you".
That was the first command they got.
Now, the people were sort of, in general,
stunned by the light and by the change, and in order that this
whole thing to going, they started now with those walking sticks
hit into the first ones when were the open truck and trying to
take them out. "Raus. Raus", was the command.
Now, some of them, as they tried to get
out, they tried to grab some of their luggage. Now, if it was
a handbag, you know, from the size of a ladies' handbag, they
let it go by, but if it was a luggage, then they simply hit the
person who picked up the luggage with the stick over the hand,
broken or not broken, so that the luggage left and the rest very
fast understood that the luggage is not to be taken out from that
wagon.
The people, then, were lined up on this
ramp, and were told to move down from this ramp to this road and
were told to separate among men and women, and the order was given
that women and children of no matter what sex should go together
with the women. So we had two rows, very fast formed up -- a row
of women and children, and a row of men. And it was said all children
under sixteen should join either the mother or with whomever they
came.
Now came a commission when they were
lined up of those people, of those individuals who were dressed
up as S.S. officers with the gold and the white gloves, and the
men had to move across with them, in front of them, and there
was a doctor who I knew quite well whose name was Dr. Mengele,
but often other people not with officer rank but so-called Sanität
.... -- corporal of the sanitation service, he had black insignia
on his uniform as belonging to the health service, and they would
sort the men as they passed by, either by flick of the finger
to go and join the women and the children, or to go to the other
side. This was a rather rapid process and often, because people
were speaking various languages, the S.S. Doctor or the S.S. sanitary
would take the stick and turn the stick so that the round part
would stick out, and he would sort out those people by putting
the stick against the neck and shoving him left or shoving him
right, because there were often cases when there were sons and
fathers who didn't want to separate, and they started to plead
that they would like to go to work to the same place. So he didn't
want very long discussion, often in a foreign language -- they
were sometimes Greek, sometimes Dutch -- so he invented a fast
sort of communication process by giving this stick, the walking
stick on the other hand, put, say, the father this way, and gave
him a smack on the back, put the son this way, gave him a smack
on the back and shows them where to go, and if necessary, a second
or third smack follows so that they understood that they have
to part. And this process would take not long, perhaps two hours,
and soon we will have on this ramp two columns -- one column of
men which would be approximately -- with great variation -- when
the transport contained, say, two thousand people, you could expect
anything between five to twenty-five percent of men being chosen
for this walk, but sometimes none, depend on the situation of
the camp. There was a strong variation from five to twenty-five
percent.
Similarly a row of women, fifty or hundred
goodlooking, young women in the age usually of sixteen to thirty,
was set up, and then we had a long column which consisted of old
people, of grandmothers, grandfathers, women who had children
on hands, either teenagers, twelve or thirteen, or babies, and
all those who sort of, during this, didn't show a staid gait or
they didn't look healthy. So this was approximately seventy-five
to ninety-five percent of the people who arrive.
While this was going on, we were still
standing separately and under orders that if any of us exchanges
one single word with a newcomer, with that civilian, will be shot.
Q. Did you ever see that happen?
A. Oh, yes. Some try to speak, and some
women -- there were scenes like, for example, some women when
they saw the officers, they started to sort of thinking that officers
are guarantee for their safety because there is a gentleman. So
one woman walked up, in my presence, well-dressed woman with two
small children, to the officer and she said -- we were dressed
in prisoners' garb, and she said to him, "One of these gangsters
has told me that I and my children will be gassed."
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, excuse me.
You know, I realize the gentleman wants to give us a full explanation
and all, but it's obvious that we aren't in a position to hear
this conversation, and I think it's clear it's hearsay.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Well, Your Honour, I am not really introducing it for the
truth of what was said, but for the fact that what happens when
somebody says anything, not for the truth of what is said.
THE WITNESS: I overheard the conversation.
THE COURT: Yes, I know that, Doctor.
I think that what you should do is ask the witness what, if anything,
he saw as a result of any conversation he overheard.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
I will phrase it in that way.
Q. Dr. Vrba, what, if anything, did you
see happen as a result of the conversation you may have overheard
between this woman and the S.S. officer?
A. The S.S. officer mollified her. He
says, "Madam" ---
Q. Don't tell us what he said. Just what
you saw happen.
A. Yes. The woman took the S.S. officer
to the prisoner and showed which said it.
Q. And what happened to that man?
A. The officer took out the notebook
and wrote out the name of the prisoner and went away. When everything
was finished and all those people were gone, the officer would
come and read the number of that prisoner. The prisoner would
come out. The prisoner was taken to the wagons and shot, and we
carried the dead body home. Now, may I continue to the general
process?
Q. Please.
A. The general process now consisted
that from somewhere trucks were stationed -- approximately ten trucks came here in front of this
road which leads nowhere.
Q. Excuse me just a moment, Doctor. May
I ask you if you can use that map to explain?
THE COURT: The map has already been referred
to. It will be Exhibit No. 12.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 12 Transparency describing ramp.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
A. Now, from somewhere, I don't know
from where, exactly, the station, ten trucks came. The trucks
were open trucks, lorries, which were equipped like when one sends
the transport, the contents of the lorry by a press of the button
from inside would lift.
Q. Like a dump truck?
A. Dump truck. Now, that people in this
group ---
Q. You are indicating the large group
of women and children.
A. Yes. Were asked to enter the dump
truck. This means there were staircases put to the dump truck
and they were counted for hundred. Until hundred were not on the
dump truck they were being encouraged to more and more. In other
words, the dump truck was loaded to absolute explosion with people.
And once the dump truck was loaded it immediately departed to
this road.
Now I need the second map, the first
which I have shown. Once they were loaded on those trucks not on all trucks, when a truck was loaded
it immediately departed in the direction of Birkenau taking the
one and only road which at that time existed with the camp of
Auschwitz and the camp of Birkenau. The cars, obviously, here
in Birkenau, disgorged the content of humans from these trucks
because they were very fast coming back. So that for about two
hours there was a brisk traffic between the ramp and this complex,
which was complex Birkenau and fast, one truck after the other,
took those people away until this column of those old and children
and so on completely disappeared. And the old trucks came back.
During all this time we were still motionlessly standing on a
road somewhere so that we don't interfere with this process.
Now, that's men, and that's women who
were so young and goodlooking. There came again two groups of
S.S. and one group of S.S. marched the men either in the Auschwitz
I for so-called reception as new prisoners, and then other group
transported fifty or a hundred women into the women's camp, as
far as I knew.
Q. They marched them away. Where was
the women's camp at that time?
A. At that time all men were marched
from this ramp either in the direction of this camp ---
Q. Auschwitz I.
A. Yes. Or in the direction of this camp.
Q. Birkenau.
A. Yes. This means we knew that there
is a female camp, but there is also a male camp. So the women
were always marched this direction.
Q. To Birkenau.
A. To Birkenau. Whereas the men were
sometimes marched to Birkenau and sometimes to Auschwitz I.
Q. Were the ones that you've identified
as a smaller group, the five to twenty-five percent, were they
ever put on the trucks?
A. No. They had to march, without luggage.
They were just marched off. They surrounded them. They were usually
marched off before this loading of the old people on the trucks
started for certain reasons. It was simply said, "We are
now going to work", and guard groups came, surrounded them,
because it was night, and in the night they have been taken out
from this circle and either marched to Auschwitz I or marched
this way to Auschwitz II. And when they were marched off, then
this large group started to be loaded on these trucks.
Q. Now, what happened to all their luggage?
A. Now came our job. Now there were no
people any more except a small amount of people which either were
dead and were still in the wagons -- in other words, the S.S.
entered the wagons, not too far in because the wagons were in
rather a disgusting shape. They were gathered urine, excrement
and blood. And the people were usually coming lying on straw.
So the S.S., at least nearby, used their sticks and started, "Schweines
aus", which means, "Swine, out". Now if a person
went out, it went out and left lying on the ramp.
Q. You are indicating the wooden ramp?
A. On the wooden ramp. Or if he didn't,
in spite of the strong urging of the S.S. by beating wherever
it fall -- I mean, sometimes on the head sometimes elsewhere,
there was a lot of crying going on during this process -- but
then the S.S. said, "Fine. That's the end of it." And
now our job came.
First we had to empty all luggage, all
dead bodies, and all living who cannot move out from the wagons.
This means from here we were driven along the wagons, and all
the work had to be done running. Anybody who was found loitering
around or something like that was immediately without discussion
clubbed.
Now, we had to enter the wagons, and
the first thing is that we had to throw out the luggage as far
as we could from the wagon. Simultaneously, we threw out all people
from the wagons. We dragged them out, dead or alive, and put them
on this ramp together with the luggage. Now came the trucks back
from Birkenau.
Q. The dump trucks?
A. The dump trucks, yes. As they were
coming back from Birkenau, we were picking up the luggage from
this ramp. This ramp was now full of luggage, all sorts of luggage,
from two, three thousand people-- a lot of luggage -- and each
of us was supposed to pick up luggage and on the double run to
the truck which was here in front. We were called the Rollwagenkommando.
And this Rollwagen was basically something in hand-driven truck
on rubber wheels so that we didn't actually have to carry always
the luggage from the distant points to the trucks, but we came
with this Rollwagen, forward drive, dragging it, then jump on
the ramp, then jump on the Rollwagen, then they pass through the
lugggages [luggages] on the Rollwagen, and then we jump
down from the Rollwagen and surrounded the Rollwagen and run with
the Rollwagen and the luggage to the front of the ramps where
the trucks are, and the trucks had, again, those stairs through
which the people went before. On the stairs were strong guards,
and from the Rollwagen we throw the luggage to them and they were
throwing it in the truck, and when the truck was filled, the next
truck was filled, until not one single luggage was remained.
Q. What about the people? What about
the dead and the dying, the injured?
A. Meanwhile, the dead, the dying and
the injured were lying here around, and it was forbidden to take
any notice of them. I mean, anybody who would stop with them before
the luggage was away would be punished appropriately.
Now, when all the luggage was away, we
had on the ramp a collection of people which could be twenty percent
of the transport, sometimes five percent, but sometimes thirty
percent of dead or invalids dying. So we were now ordered -- a
number of those dump trucks came and we were ordered to take them
from that ramp, along this raod, to that dump trucks.
THE COURT: To the ....
MR. GRIFFITHS: Dump trucks.
THE COURT: To the trucks.
THE WITNESS: To the lorries, and staircases
were put in front of the lorries, but we were not allowed, as
is normal, when you carry a dead body or a sick person, that four
men holding or something like that. It was usually one man who had
to do it. This means the man had to grab the dead or dying by
the hand and run with him on this road to this truck, and if the
speed was not sufficient, there were a number of S.S. men with
those clubs to give us a little bit more enthusiasm, as they called
it, into this work.
When we came to these trucks, there were
again men on top of the staircase, and dead or dying, or invalids
who were neither dead nor dying but invalidated, paraplegics,
broken legs and so on, were carried by us up the staircase, taken
by two men on top of this staircase, and thrown into the lorries.
So the lorries was taking a mixture of dead, dying and invalids.
And this lorry, the people were not standing but they were usually
lying because the number of dead was too big, and as they lied,
so they lied. And when that lorry was approximately this way covered
with bodies ---
Q. You are indicating a mound in the
lorry?
A. Then the lorry went the same way as
the previous way -- that is, direction Birkenau. The lorry went
to Birkenau. After the last body, dead or alive, has been eliminated,
we had to eliminate the last luggage and the cars, the dump trucks
with the luggage, they didn't go to Birkenau where most of the
people went, but they went to Auschwitz I, and here, next to the
Deutsche Ausrüstungwerke.
Q. Next to the iron works.
A. Next to the Deutsche Ausrüstungwerke
there was a yard, and this yard was called Kanada, and this yard
had here a railway line, because the Deutsche Ausrüstungwerke, Krupp and Siemens
used workers to get out their products. So this railway line went
in in front of this KanadaKommando. Here is the Kommando. So all
the cars came with the property to Kanada, and there the trucks
were lifted and the property was shifted down.
Q. I am going to stop you there, if I
may.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, I see that
it is twenty to five. Is this a convenient time?
THE COURT: Members of the jury, would
you please retire now for the evening? We will start again at
ten o'clock tomorrow morning. Please keep an open mind. Don't
permit anyone to discuss this case with you, nor should you discuss
it with anyone else.
Have a good evening. Thank you.
--- The jury retires. 4:50 p.m.
---The witness stands down.
--- Whereupon the hearing is adjourned to January 22, 1985.
January 22, 1985 [Tuesday]
--- Upon the hearing resuming.
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I'd like to
speak to you in the absence of the jury.
THE COURT: Certainly.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, Your Honour.
The defence has had, since the 8th of January, a witness by the
name of Udo Wallendy [Walendy] a publisher from West Germany,
waiting in Toronto. He has to leave on the 28th of January, and
last night my friend gave me a piece of paper advising me he proposes
calling three new witnesses.
Every witness that I am aware of, including
the present one, has been added since the preliminary hearing.
The obvious effect is that the Crown's case is made considerably
longer than anticipated, and certainly far more unpredictable
than was estimated from the preliminary hearing. This includes
in respect to Dr. Hilberg, the fact that Dr. Fried, who had previously
testified on the tribunal proceedings, had amalgated into his
evidence Dr. Fried's evidence as an expert; so that complicates
matters further.
Dr. Vrba is a totally new and unknown
witness to us. We have a summary of his background, but we are
told three new witnesses are to be called. They keep changing
from time to time, which throws us into a state of somewhat confusion.
However, I suggest that this has resulted
in a very, very great problem for the defence in that we have witnesses waiting here from
West Germany and other places that we had anticipated by the end
of the month could be under way.
I'd like to suggest two possibilities,
if I may, to enable us to provide our defence in addition to the
Crown to complete its case: One possibility, which might be somewhat
unusual, would be the position of a defence witness in the middle
of the Crown's case -- that would be quite undesirable, probably
objectionable to the Crown; the other possibility which I suggest
might be more acceptable to the Crown, and which I might suggest
is that a video tape deposition be taken, under oath, with the
opportunity to my friend to cross-examine at will, and as far
as he likes, the witness in question. That could be done in the
evening at my friend's convenience. I can provide the equipment
and the personnel to do the video tape deposition; then the witness
can be cross-examined by my friend and he can go on his way, at
which time the defence, at such time as the defence is called,
we can then introduce that, having given my friend the opportunity
to cross-examine. I think that would be preferrable to not having
a witness.
The witness is Udo Wallendy [Walendy],
who is mentioned in the book, Did Six Million Really Die?, as the author of another book. The book
is in evidence. I filed it in my cross-examination earlier. So
it is a relevant witness. He is a publisher who has published
extensively in the field and done research in the National Archives,
I think, both in the United States and in West Germany. So in
regard to him I would be seeking to qualify him as an expert in
the field in which he has researched, and also to give firsthand
evidence on the subject matter which is referred to in the book, Did Six Million Really Die?. So he becomes both an
expert witness and a witness on matters of fact referred to in
the book. If it were not that he was, to that extent, relevant,
I wouldn't be interposing this problem, because I certainly don't
wish to create unnecessary delays, but I cannot see how, with
the situation being as it is -- he has waited twenty days or will
be here twenty days and still we are told three new witnesses
and new witnesses every day -- it throws the defence into a position
where we are unable to keep these people waiting any longer.
I wonder, then, if Your Honour could
direct, in your discretion, that that second suggestion, or if
more convenient the first, be adopted to enable our side of the case to be presented. I think
that the variations on the matter as presented from the preliminary
to the present stage are approaching that level of alteration
of the case where I will be raising the suggestion that an oblique
motive exists to the constant re-arrangement of the evidence of
the Crown, the inclusion of new witnesses, and the disappearance
of old witnesses whose evidence is consistent with the theory
of the defence, namely, the witness, Sabina Citron, the complainant
in the whole matter in the first place. Thank you.
THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
I assure my friend there is no oblique motive in not calling Mrs
Citron or in the fact that there are new witnesses that are being
added to the Crown's case. I explained to my friend what Mrs Citron
-- that there was an illness in the family, and that's why I was
not calling her, and that remains my position, Your Honour. She
is available if my friend wishes to call her. I have not been
adding new witnesses every day, as my friend has indicated, although
I did give him three new witness statements yesterday of people
that I interviewed and met for the first time on Sunday.
I don't need to tell Your Honour, indeed
I don't need to tell Mr. Christie that this case has received wide
publicity, not just within our community in Toronto, but across
the country and by telephone, Your Honour, and I know the switchboards
from a number of other organization hasn't stopped ringing since
the 7th of January. These are witnesses that were not known to
me before, have become known to me, the nature of their evidence
is such that it is germain to issues that my friend is raising,
and I felt it appropriate that the jury hear that evidence. And
accordingly, I provided my friend with the witness statement from
those witnesses.
Dr. Vrba, I advised my friend some weeks
ago that Dr. Vrba will be testifying. I provided him with a copy
of the report that Dr. Vrba wrote in 1944 and advised him of the
book that Dr. Vrba had written of his experiences in Auschwitz
and advised him that he had difficulty in obtaining that, and
I wonder what assistance it was. So he had full disclosure of
what Dr. Vrba's evidence will be.
I regret, Your Honour, that the matter
is taking longer than was initially anticipated. I recollected
quite clearly that at a number of stages, both in the courtroom and outside the courtroom,
that I indicated that I had Dr. Hilberg here, set aside two days
for his evidence. I had never been advised two days would not
be sufficient for that evidence. I had arranged for Tuesday and
Wednesday of last week, and that I had Dr. Vrba arranged for Thursday
and Friday of last week.
I don't criticize Mr. Christie's right
to fully cross-examine, and that is certainly a right that he
has exercised during the course of this trial, but I don't take
full responsibility for the length of the trial, Your Honour.
It's an adversarial process, and matters are being gone into in
depth.
I know of no precedent, Your Honour,
for either of the procedures that my friend suggests. They are
as fresh to my ears as they are to Your Honour this morning. I
have always felt, Your Honour -- and again I am not prepared with
law or precedent on this -- that it was vital for a jury to be
able to assess the credibility of somebody in person in the courtroom
milieu, and not somebody on television. Obviously, as my friend
says, any deposition would have to be in the presence of Your
Honour as well and the court reporter here. The video tape itself would not be sufficient.
There may well be rulings during the course of his testimony and
matters which Your Honour would have to appear on.
As to any suggestion that the Crown splits
its case, again, I know of no precedent for that, and I will be
opposed to both suggestions.
THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: First of all, Your Honour,
my friend says that he told me about Dr. Vrba. That is correct.
But it seems to me I am hearing, every day, about new witnesses,
alterations for old witnesses. The preparation for a case should
not be undertaken during the course of a trial. I am sure that
it is a recognized pre-requisite. If I have been surprising my
friend, he should concede that as people go along, he has people
who phone him on the weekend or any other time.
I suggest that we are entitled through
the preliminary to know something about the case, and I can count
now five witnesses, two experts, who are altered, and the total
situation of the case is changing from day to day, it seems to
me.
In the case of these circumstances it
seems as if the Crown modifies its position on the basis of the cross-examination, because from
what I can see, of the witness statements provided, points brought
out in cross-examination now are covered by new surprise witnesses.
I think it approaches the stage where I could very readily ask
for an adjournment.
The Crown provides me with witness statements,
probably a quarter of a page long, to deal with fundamental matters
in the case. It would be certainly within my right, I think, to
ask for an adjournment in the face of this new type of evidence.
I don't propose to do so. I think that would be far too much of
an inconvenience for the jury and for the whole Court, but I am
asking for some consideration of what I think is a practical problem,
if it were necessary to conduct these depositions such as one
takes commission evidence, before a commissioner, or in open Court,
I am quite sure we could arrange that, although I am sure it would,
indeed, be inconvenient to Your Honour and to the Court as a whole.
I'd much rather avoid that if I could; but I really think that
it ill becomes the Crown to say, well, we are finding out new
things every day, and we want to add them as they come along;
the defence can wait until we are through with whatever we happen
to find. It seems to me with three new witnesses, that's about the size
of the matter; and in the face of that, I am asking for some consideration
to enable us to put our case into evidence without the necessity
of recalling people from West Germany and other places who are
directly referred to in the book. There isn't some kind of abstract
---
THE COURT: What book?
MR. CHRISTIE: This book.
THE COURT: Exhibit 1.
MR. CHRISTIE: Exhibit 1. Thank you. They
are quoted here, and they have come to verify what they've found.
Now, they have waited since the 8th of January, and I certainly
recognize that they couldn't testify then. They have to wait,
but they have to go back on the 28th, twenty days later
I find it difficult to comprehend how
the Crown can take the position that they may extend their case
when and if they choose as long as they find it relevant. If people
now phone them with information today, I suppose I will hear some
new statements tomorrow. That's the way it happened yesterday.
I don't see how the defence can be put in a position of coping
with that kind of re-arrangement in the case. Thank you.
THE COURT: Counsel for the accused in
the absence of the jury, has moved the Court to provide for and
to accommodate the evidence of the proposed defence witness, Mr
Udo Walendy.
I am told that that witness is West German
by way of national origin and is a resident of that country. He
has, I infer, at the request of the defence, come to Canada to
testify as a defence witness at this trial. He came here on the
8th of January.
This trial commenced in a formal way
on Wednesday, the 9th of January. A jury was selected with no
undue delay. The evidence really did not commence until well into
the latter two days of the first week after the Christmas recess.
That would make the evidence in this case having started really
in the afternoon of the 10th of January and all of the 11th.
All of last week was consumed with the
evidence of four or five Crown witnesses, most of whom were examined
and cross-examined with despatch.
Dr. Hilberg, a Crown witness, testified
as an expert. As I recall it, generally speaking, his evidence
in examination-in-chief consumed not quite a day -- the better
part of a full morning and somewhat in the afternoon. He [Hilberg] was then cross-examined
by counsel for the accused for two and a half days.
Mr. Christie has indicated in his motion
that Mr. Walendy has to return to Germany on the 28th of January.
This motion is made on the 22nd of January. Defence counsel moves
that the Crown's case be interrupted and that the defence witness
be examined in-chief and cross-examined before the jury.
In the alternative, and preferrable to
the defence, Mr. Christie submits that in the evening a video tape
recording be made of Mr. Walendy's evidence and that there be examination-in-chief
and cross-examination with the tape ultimately being displayed
to the jury.
Crown counsel objects to both of those
suggestions.
Mr. Christie is further of the view that
the Crown is virtually, as he says, on a day-by-day basis, altering
its case and notifying the defence that it intends to call more
witnesses than originally intended with the result that any comparison
between the witnesses called at the preliminary hearing and what
the Crown intends to call at this trial is somewhat incidental.
Counsel for the defence takes the view that the constant juggling and adding
of witnesses with no intention to call other witnesses on the
part of the Crown is not only confusing to the defence, but has
taken defence to the point where it is contemplating suggesting
that the Crown has an oblique motive in doing this. In any event,
while the defence is not making a motion for an adjournment, that
thought is passing through Mr. Christie's mind.
Crown counsel observes that no one asked
the witness, Walendy, to come to this country on the Crown side
on the 8th of January. Mr. Griffiths points out that when he suggested
that he had set aside two days for the total evidence of Dr. Hilberg,
no one on the defence side advised him that it will be another
one or two days in addition to that before the whole matter of
that witness' evidence could be finished.
I am of the view that I have no jurisdiction
to, in effect, tell the Crown how to prosecute.
In the same way I have certainly no jurisdiction
to in any way regulate how the defence will be put in. I have
jurisdiction to ensure that the law is followed and our procedures
are adhered to. That jurisdiction I have attempted to exercise.
I know of no statute or case law that
permits the taking of evidence of any witness by video tape in
a criminal trial. It seems to me that the mode of trial having
been taken by the defence to have a jury, the jury is entitled
to see witnesses first-hand and, as Crown counsel says, not through
television.
I think it would be a grave error on
my part to permit the evidence of any witness, be it video-taped,
in the absence of the jury, at night, and to be shown to the jury
later. It would be an improper disruption of the Crown's case
for me to make an order that the Crown's case be interrupted so
that the evidence of the defence witness could be taken.
I am dismissing the motion now for the
reasons I have given. Defence counsel has the right to bring that
motion again. Whether he succeeds or fails will depend on what
I hear then. It will also depend on how fast we proceed, how quickly
and with what despatch this case proceeds both in the examination-in-chief
and in cross-examination of the witnesses as they are called by
the Crown.
I am not unmindful of or unsympathetic with Mr. Christie's position insofar as
the witness is concerned. Scheduling of witnesses is a nightmare
to both side.
There is no substance in Mr. Christie's
submission that the Crown is apparently improperly deciding to
not call certain witnesses and to call others that have not been
called at the preliminary hearing.
Preliminary hearings are conducted to
see whether or not there is evidence sufficient to put the accused
on trial. Their prime motive is not one of examination for discovery,
although it has been said by others senior to me that that is
one of the natural benefits that might flow to the defence from
the holding of preliminary hearings.
The motion is dismissed on those terms.
THE COURT: Is there anything further?
MR. CHRISTIE: No, Your Honour.
MR. GRIFFITHS: No, Your Honour.
THE COURT: The jury, please.
--- The jury enters. 10:35 a.m.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, I am
sorry to keep you waiting. A matter came up first thing this morning,
and I dealt with it. We are now ready to proceed.
Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
RUDOLF VRBA,
previously sworn
CONTINUED EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY
MR. GRIFFITHS:
Q. As I recollect, Doctor, we have reached
the point yesterday where you were describing what went on in
the night shift of the Kanada command, and I believe you had testified
that you reached the point where the dead, the dying and the invalids
were loaded on trucks and taken away. What was your responsibility
then?
A. Once all the people -- that means
dead, dying, invalids, healthy -- were distributed, each into
its place because the trucks took them, we collected the luggage
and loaded them on the returning trucks. The trucks were making
quite short journeys. Say a truck went away with a hundred people
and came back within ten minutes and there were only about ten
trucks, so that if you had, in the transport, say three thousand
to four thousand people, average was three thousand, but it could
be four thousand, it could be five thousand.
The deportation, the elimination of the people from the ramp would then take
two to three hours, and after that, as the trucks are coming back
from Birkenau ---
Q. Were they coming back empty or full?
A. Empty. We were immediately loading
the property of the people on the truck. May I use the slides,
please?
Q. Please.
A. We were standing here. Here is a ramp.
The truck with the people moved in this direction.
Q. Towards Birkenau?
A. Which is Birkenau, and came back,
each truck, again to the ramp where we loaded it with the luggage.
And then the trucks with the luggage, the property of the deportees,
came into this complex, which wax called Kanada, and was adjacent
to the complex called, "DAW", which means Deutsche Ausrüstungwerke,
and translated means German ammunition military ammunition factory.
I think that for short we can call it DAW. And this means that
after all the luggage has been put on trucks and deposited here
in Kanada, in this particular quarter, our job was to clean out
the wagons. The wagons had to be cleaned out in such a way that
not the slightest trace should remain that they were used for
transportation of human beings. That means the straw was taken
out and put on the ramp, the cars be meticulously cleaned with
brushes, with mops, with all sorts of cleaning equipment, finally
disinfected with lysol, again wiped and swept out, and then a
commission came to inspect if the wagons are in an almost perfect
state, like new, from inside.
After the wagons had been given clearance to clear the ramp and our job
was to eliminate from the ramp any slightest trace of anything,
not one piece of paper, blood, urine or excrement, not a trace
of clothes or whatsoever was allowed to stay on the ramp, and
when that process was finished, we were again rounded up, and
if I can have the previous picture ....
Q. What exhibit number is that that you
just put on -- Exhibit 12?
A. Yes. The whole process went into reverse.
This means we had to line up here and on the road in front of
the ramp in fives, the group hundred, two hundred, depending how
many you got. A detachment of S.S. came and marched us off, and
the moment when this detachment of S.S. had marched us off, had
us surrounded, that S.S. went home.
Q. The larger circle.
A. Yes. And we were marched, then, either,
depends on the hour, either back into the camp, which means that
we were marched back into the sleeping quarters here ---
Q. In Auschwitz I?
A. --- In Auschwitz I, which were surrounded
by barbed wire and lights and garbage all through the night, or
if there was much work, we waited either for the next transport,
because there were such days that five or six transports came
within twenty-four hours.
On the other hand, there was sometimes
so much work to be done in this, specialized work to be done in
this specialized Kanada complex, that you were marched into the
Kanada complex and kept there working until we were allowed for
going to the camp.
Q. Do you know what a Red Cross van looks like?
A. That's right.
Q. Can you describe it for us?
A. Well, it was Red Cross vans which
was a green military van with a large red cross, and when the
people were lined up, this red cross van went in front of them.
If I show again this picture, the people who were left on the
ramp and were lined up here waiting for the transport in this
direction ---
Q. Towards Birkenau.
A. Yes. The Red Cross van came from Kanada
via a small hole which is not shown on this map, but here was
a road, a connection, crossed the railway line here and via a
small road, went here to this direction. The Red Cross van originated
here in Kanada compound, and contained Zyklon gas, the canisters.
Q. Did you ever see inside that Red Cross
vans?
A. Yes. I have been several times inside
the Red Cross van; because one of my jobs when I was here in the
Kanada complex was to load the Red Cross van with Zyklon gas.
And this usually happened before the arrival of the transport.
This means when we were not in the camp, when the alarm came that
the transport is coming, say this was alarm for twenty minutes
in vans, then first thing when we got here in the Kanada complex
which I have described how it looked, came the Red Cross van and
there was a special small house which stored the Zyklon, and we
were told ---
THE COURT: You cannot say what you were told.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: What did you do?
A. We were ordered to -- I'm sorry for
using the word "told". We were ordered to ---
MR. CHRISTIE: That is hearsay as well.
THE COURT: Rephrase it, please.
MR. GRIFFITHS: You received some orders.
A. Yes.
Q. As a result of the orders what did
you do?
A. A queue was formed from this little
house to the Red Cross van, and that would stand in the queue.
In the little house inside there was Zyklon conserves -- they
looked like conserves.
Q. Conserves, jam?
A. Well, they were the size of a gallon
jam conserves. When I hold it like that, then it was a little
bit over my two hands.
Q. You are indicating holding it from
underneath.
A. Yes. So it depends where I stood,
either where I was ordered or where they were stored, or the Red
Cross van, or sometime in the middle, depending on the situation;
and we were loading that Red Cross van with the Zyklon.
Q. Was it always the same amount, or
did the amount differ?
A. It differed, depending on how many
people they expected to come, I understand.
Q. That's the night shift.
A. That's the night shift.
Q. What about the day shift?
A. The day shift, the day shift worked
in this compound.
Q. That is the Kanada compound.
A. That is the Kanada compound which
was a square of approximately roughly hundred meters on each side.
So this would be ten thousand square meters or hundred thousand
square feet, roughly. And I would now, if you throw a light on
what this looked like here inside, in the first line I would like
to take notice that this compound was outside the main camp where
we slept in the night, but inside the great of chain of guards.
Therefore, when we were working here by day, there were no special
guards here inside except the S.S. who worked, who commanded us
to work, but not the guards; but this compound was often working
for twenty-four hours a day, and there was also a night shift.
And because in the night these guards are not standing, there
was an arrangement for guarding us in the night within this complex.
So this complex, then, looked finally like this.
Q. And you've got a clean sheet of transparencies,
then, and you are going to draw us a picture of the compound now.
A. This was a compound of about a hundred
yards with a gate here, barbed wire around. In those corners were
guard towers, equipped with guards and machine guns, and here
all along was light in the night. There were the following buildings
inside. Here was a large building made of brick with a patio and
a terrace, a veranda, very long barrack, type of Birkenau barracks, was here. Here was a lavatory for the
prisons, and other barrack was here, and here were again two barracks.
So on the whole we had there four barracks, each barrack of the
size of a large horse stable, and the house which I would say
would represent a house with a square footage of rough estimate
twenty thousand square feet which was a special store, twenty
thousand square feet inside space.
Now, the trucks from the ramp would come
with the property here into this, with the luggages, into this
yard, and the property would be unloaded by the man in the truck
pressing a button, and the truck lifting so that the whole luggage
would slide down. However, if it didn't slide down, two prisoners
or three prisoners had to climb up on the truck and help the luggage
to get down so that the truck would return to the ramp for the
next load. And meanwhile, in the centre of this yard, a great
heap of luggage has been formed and prisoners were immediately
used to store those luggages along the walls of this barrack.
Now, the walls of this barrack, the barrack
was approximately the height of this wall.
Q. In the courtroom here?
A. Yes. About thirty meters long. This
means, I would say, twice as long as this courtroom, by judgment,
and the luggage from one or two transport vehicles represented
a considerable mass of matter. It had to be done pretty fast because
the trucks were going up and down from the ramp, and they were,
of course, keen to clean the ramp very fast and to get the trucks
for other jobs. So this was phase number one, the position of
the luggage next to this barrack.
Q. What happened then?
A. Then we were working there at various
times -- two hundred, three hundred, four hundred or five hundred
people. Inside this barrack the situation was the following ---
Q. Excuse me just a minute, Doctor.
MR. GRIFFITHS: The drawing, Your Honour,
of inside the Kanada compound in Auschwitz, could that be the
next exhibit?
THE COURT: Yes.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 13: Transparency of Kanada compound.
THE WITNESS: This barrack had two gates
in the front and in the back like a horse stable with light coming
from the top, no windows. Along, inside the barracks, blankets
were spread out -- say nine, ten blankets. The blankets were confiscated
immediately from those arrivals. They all had blankets, and there
were a great store of blankets. And around each blanket were situated
around ten prisoners. This was the first stage of our work there,
which was also by night.
Now, six or ten or eight prisoners, depending
on the amount of luggage, were doing nothing but running from
the outside from here where the luggage was stored in great heaps
and bringing two luggages in each hand. I mean, if you brought
only one or something like that, it would be -- his enthusiasm
for work would be increased by the S.S. men who stand at this
door with a club, with a truncheon. So if sufficient speed, or
carried a considerable amount, physical convincing
has taken place. The luggages were dropped here and these people
who were around were already highly specialized. There was one
man whose job was to open the luggage as fast as possible, and
the rule was that it doesn't matter whether the luggage is or
is not preserved healthy because the luggage was marked with names.
So rough instruments were used, sometimes the luggage was cut
up, and as fast as possible the content of the luggage was dumped
on these blankets, and the people around these blankets started
to be frantically active in sorting out the contents of the luggage.
Men's clothes were on one side, women's clothes went on the other
side, and children's clothes on the other side of the blanket.
Things like shoe cream, shoe paste, combs, on the other side of
the blanket, and on one side of the blanket went everything like
documents, photo albums, diaries or books, material consisting
of paper. In the middle there was a small luggage into which went
valuables -- money, gold, etcetera -- wrist watches.
Q. Jewellery.
A. Jewellery which was found in those
luggages. Now, this was here inside in the middle of each blanket,
the small luggage. The papers were collected by a special collector
again who went around with a big luggage and collected the documents,
and those documents were taken here behind this barrack and between
this barrack in the DAW, and a fire was made and those documents
were burned there without inspection. Indeed, it was strictly
forbidden to inspect those documents, and as I will explain later,
before we left we were extremely thoroughly searched for money
which was abundant there and for documents.
In other words, somebody who stole a
sardine could get away with twenty-five lashes, but if somebody
stole a bank note, a diamond or a document didn't get away alive.
Now, can I have this picture? Now, when
it was all sorted out, again other groups came and started to
load into blankets certain goods, say male clothes, female clothes,
pans and pots ....
Q. Pots and pans ....
A. Pots and pans, yes. All sorts of things
which were there, and I will go back through this picture.
Q. Exhibit 12.
A. Right. And now we would carry, the
prisoners would carry from this barrack, where the sorting was
going on, this was called the sorting barrack, loaded with blankets
in which the goods were, sorted goods were stuffed, were running
under the eyes of Scharfuhrer Wyglev. So he was sitting here and
started observing the situation. As the prisoners were running
with the property, with the property in blankets and depositing
all better clothes here in this barrack, all laundry in this barrack,
other items in this barrack. In that three barracks were working
women. These women were brought from Birkenau. They were stationed
in Birkenau, and every morning brought into the Kanada command.
Women do not work on the ramp, and in Kanada they worked in the
three barracks where they sorted the goods according to quality.
This means they sorted shirts, first quality shirts, second quality
shirts, and so-called lumben [Lumpen], which means rags.
And they are bundled, and in this barrack enormous amounts of
those shirts of first quality, of second quality and of third quality were
accumulated. Similarly, undergarments of first quality, second
quality and third quality were accumulating so that it looked
like in an enormous warehouse inside. The number of women who
worked on the sorting amounted for anything from two hundred to
three hundred to four hundred, depending on the business that
was going, and in regular intervals the train came. There was
a train line as I explained in figure number one. There were train
lines there, because this was group Siemens, and armaments, DAW,
which produced material for war with the slave labour provided
from Auschwitz I, and therefore they had to export those things
straight to the railway, and so there was a railway line coming
into the camp, and this railway line was prolonged, and so, occasionally,
wagons would be put in front of the Kanada, and we would then
load those wagons on particular days with the property sorted
already out. This means the wagons would come here. Here would
be the railway line, and they would bring in wagons, and there
were days when it was in the order, shirts, first quality and
second quality. So we had to run from this barrack with the proper
load and load it on those trains, then came, say, shoes, first
quality, second quality, third quality. The shoes were carefully
bundled together so that they are not mixed up. Then there were
overcoats, first quality etcetera, etcetera. Now, the third quality
underwear and shirts was not sent as such, but it was called as
a rag quality and this was sent to paper factory for making paper,
and this I know because when loading it in the wagon, the designation
of the wagon was written on it, Memel was written on it, which
is a Baltic town. So this rags of the third quality were transported for
making paper in Memel, and the better things were distributed
to various addresses in Bavaria, mainly, but also in other addresses,
and it was written Winterhilfswerk, which means help for the winter,
and they made various contributions among the population for either
those who are poor or those on the front and running out of underwear
and shirts, and they send it to those centres.
Q. Now, during this time that you were
working in the Kanada command, the day shift or the night shift,
up until January 15th you said you were living in Auschwitz I.
A. Right.
Q. Before January 15th did you ever go
into Birkenau?
A. Yes. On one occasion.
Q. All right. Now, have we got a map
there that would show?
MR. GRIFFITHS: While Dr. Vrba is getting
it, the sketch showing the inside of the barracks as described
by Dr. Vrba, if that could be the next exhibit.
THE COURT: Exhibit 14.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 14: Transparency -- Sketch showing inside of barracks.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Now, this is a different
map and perhaps you could orient us on this map where Birkenau
is and where Auschwitz I is on the railway lines.
A. That was a previous map which I showed, made by memory, and this is an official map made by experts.
Here, this is Auschwitz I.
Q. And you have marked that in red.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, where is the road that you would
travel from Auschwitz I ---
A. Here is Kanada. And the road of the
tracks which we travelled from Auschwitz I was the following:
When we went to the ramp we were marched
from Auschwitz I where we were overnight, over this pass to this
pass without reaching the railway station, Auschwitz. This is
a river here and we reach here the Vienna-Krakow line, railway
line. And we cross it and enter the rail of Birkenau.
Q. And there is a road there that you
are indicating that went to Birkenau. Were there any other roads
that went to Birkenau?
A. None. This was the only road that
went to Birkenau. Also, some of the S.S. who were stationed in
this region have this time made footpath by walking over these
fields, so that some sort of dirt footpath to the railway station
existed because behind the railway station and behind Auschwitz
there were pubs.
THE COURT: There were what?
THE WITNESS: Pubs.
THE COURT: That is where one drinks beer.
THE WITNESS: Yes. The S.S., in order
not to go this way, they have stamped out a road which was a shorter road to the
railway station and to the town of Auschwitz.
Q. All right. Now, can you ---
A. The only road on which a car could
go is this one.
Q. All right. Can you tell us where,
before January 15th, you went in Birkenau?
A. On January 15th ---
Q. I'm sorry, I said before January 15th.
A. Yes. In December 1942 I was once ordered
to enter a truck, one of those trucks, to go to an unknown place,
and at that location I was driven to Birkenau and I was driven
along this road, enter the Birkenau, came here. Here was a main
gate of Birkenau, main entrance. There was the one and only entrance
how it would get to Birkenau complex was either here; here was
the one and only entrance.
Q. All right.
A. And the other entrance was here, which
was the side entrance. I was taken through this -- sorry, it went
there. It was here. This is the entrance, and I was taken with
a truck first through this main entrance here, then the truck
went in between camps "C" and "D", which I
will show in bigger detail. Then it turned left, and here we are
in this region, and there in the large hut there was, as I described,
a horse stable; we were taken in by a number of open pits and
the hut, not hut, horse stable, was filled with clothes from bottom
to the very top, and our job of about fifty men was to clear a
road through that enormous amount of clothing and then side roads,
so that the clothing could be slowly taken
out or sorted on the place.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to look
at the pits that you saw?
A. Yes. The pits were close to the barrack.
It was December 1942, and the heat came out from the pits. The
pits were not used. There was nobody. When I looked into the pits
I saw bones which were fragments only which were burned, but a
lot of unburned or slightly burned children's heads. At that time
I didn't know what it means, why children's heads don't burn,
but now I know that they contain such an amount of water that
to burn completely a child skull is much more difficult than a
grown-up's skull.
Q. How many were there, one or more than
one?
A. As far as I remember I didn't walk
by more than three. There might have been further from the barrack,
but of course, I couldn't walk there. I had to keep by the barrack.
Q. Can you give us any estimate as to
how large those pits would be?
A. The depths I would estimate for six
meters.
Q. Six meters.
A. Yes.
THE COURT: What's that in feet?
THE WITNESS: Six meters is about twenty
feet, eighteen feet. Eighteen feet, twenty feet. So this means
the depths would be again up to this panneling, the second panneling.
I would estimate that it is about six meters. And it was a rather quadrangle.
It was quadrangular. I would say six meters on each side and six
meters down. They were not in use, but the heat was still coming
out and if you like to come closer because of the heat, it was
December, it was very cold.
Q. Now, on January 15th did you move?
A. Yes. On January 15th ---
THE COURT: What year would this be, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: '43. It turned out under
some suspicion that certain amount of money turned out in Auschwitz
one camp found by the so-called political department, which was
an internal police in the camp which had its own block which was
block eleven, which was known as a torture block, or investigation
block.
Now, they had found evidence from some
prisoners that money which originated from Kanada ---
MR. CHRISTIE: We are now embarking into
the realm of hearsay and I object to it. I don't mind if he goes
on, but ---
THE COURT: I agree with you, Mr. Christie.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Perhaps without going
into the reasons why, was your group moved?
A. One day we were moved. On 15th January,
1943, we were moved from Auschwitz to Birkenau.
Q. All right. And we have got a drawing
there, a little more detailed drawing of Birkenau that showed
the various barrack?
A. Yes. My original drawing after I made
it after my escape in 1944 is this. And when we came to Birkenau, all this was under
construction in '43, this region here.
Q. And you are indicating where there
there is the Roman numeral II, "A" through "F".
A. Yes. It was under construction, and
there were no prisoners whatsoever.
Q. Where were all the prisoners?
A. These two camps existed. Here are
women and here are men. And we were brought in into this men's
camp into Block 16, and what a men's camp look like and how this
look like in more than my drawing is shown on this map.
Q. Now, there are parts of this map that
are different from when you left on April 7?
A. Since April 7th, since I left, I am
now one year forwards.
Q. I understand that. I just want to
understand just what was there when you were there, and you can't
testify as to what was there after you were there.
A. Now, these barracks were not there
by the time I left.
Q. Indicate at the top.
A. Yes. And this railway which is here
indicated as coming in through the main gate was not finished.
There were only laid foundation from the railway, and I could
see that the railroad is a building, but it was not finished on
7 April, 1944, otherwise I cannot see the meaning of this here,
which is connected, evidently, from the building of this new railway
of which I didn't mention before, because when you look at my
original painting which was made in 1944 at the
time of my escape, behind this complex of Birkenau, here are the
Krematoria II, III, IV and V, there was just a little small forest
and no roads.
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I don't know
how this witness can say that unless he admits that he was there.
MR. GRIFFITHS: He was there.
MR. CHRISTIE: He was outside Birkenau
and behind ---
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, Mr. Christie. He escaped.
You will hear about it more.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I escaped. I escaped.
THE COURT: Excuse me, gentlemen. The
previous transparency that he put on will be Exhibit 15, the one
he drew himself.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, Your Honour. A rough
ground plan of Birkenau from 1944 from Dr. Vrba.
---EXHIBIT NO. 15: Transparency -- Rough ground plan of Birkenau in 1944 by Dr. Vrba
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, you were explaining the camp
enclosure, Birkenau, when you were there.
A. Yes.
Q. All right? Carry on. Now ....
A. This means this was Birkenau I. Here
are women and here were men.
Q. We are looking at the left side of
the drawing and on the bottom --
A. On this side of the drawing were women
and here were men. And to make the geography clear, south on this
map is in this direction, and this I know because on clear days
from this place where I lived -- I lived here in this place, but
when I go as far as this and could look through the wires, I could
see mountains, and I knew that those are the Bezkydy. These were
Slovak mountains.
Q. Slovak mountains. And these were ---
A. In the south.
Q. Now, I put to you another one, and
this is three-dimensional, tilted; another one that we have seen
before as a flat plan.
A. Yes. So this would be the flat plan
similar to that one which I drew after my escape, and this means
that Birkenau I was two -- this was "A" and this was
"B". In "A" were women; in "B" were
men. This complex was Birkenau II, and it was not built up at
that time.
Q. When you first move in.
A. In January 1943. And this complex
did not exist whatsoever in January 1943.
Q. Now, where were you living in January
of 1943?
A. I was living in this building here.
And this building was called Block No. 16.
Q. And where were you working after January
'43?
A. After January '43 I was working back in Kanada. This means by daytime
or by nighttime I was transported to the ramp, and by daytime
to the Kanada storehouse in Auschwitz I.
Q. All right.
A. I was marched there. In other words,
I was only changing my barrack from Auschwitz I into a barrack
in Birkenau. That was a change on January 15th. And here I stayed
until January 8th.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. June 8th, 1943.
Q. All right. During that next six months
....
A. Yes.
Q. ....can you tell us whether you saw
any of the truckloads or lorries of people coming from the direction
of the train ramp into Birkenau that you described for us yesterday?
A. Certainly.
Q. Can you tell us where they went?
A. Because when I finished my work, if
I may call it that way, when this Kommando finish the work on
the ramp, the Kommando went home. Now, when I was home and somebody
else was on the ramp, when I was in the day Kommando, then I would
see that those trucks with those who were not marched into the
camp, the healthy men and the healthy women went, so to say, in
front of my nose by this main entrance, by this road, into this
region, which was surrounded by barbed wire, electrified barbed
wire, and unloaded in this yard. So that it was my privilege and
right of the prisoners that when they are not working, they can
walk. This is the main road.
Furthermore, here, this is Block 27,
and next to the Block 27, here, it was a wooden structure.
Q. Is it shown on this plan?
A. It is not shown on this map because
it was only made fro wood, and this was called Leichenkeller,
which means mortuary. And this was a mortuary for prisoners who
died by daytime in the prison compound, and in this mortuary there
was a very close check on the numbers of the prisoners so that
one knows who died, who is not dead. So considerable administration
was being kept.
Q. Were you ever in that mortuary?
A. I was frequently in the mortuary,
because Registrar in the mortuary was Fred Wetzler, with whom
I escaped later who was from the same town I was, who I knew from
home, and with whom I escaped from Auschwitz. This means if I
may have this main picture, if I was not working, I used every
occasion to go to the mortuary, because there was the company
of Wetzler, who was my closest friend.
Secondly, we conspire from the very start
with Wetzler the conspiracy of escape. Wetzler by that time lost
three brothers in the Sonderkommando. And it gave me safety, because
by staying in the mortuary, this Wetzler, it usually contained
two hundred, three hundred, four hundred bodies. The S.S. didn't
like the stench which accumulated there, so we had a peaceful
teatime in that place, and if I may have the picture, also naturally
from this place I could see perfectly what was happening on this
road and what's happening here, from the crematoria.
Q. You described barbed wire. Was there
any kind of fence around those buildings that are crematoria that
would prevent you from seeing what was happening there?
A. Not at the start. At the start I could
see perfectly well from here, in January 1943, February 1943,
perfectly well what is happening here. The distance is not more
than fifty, sixty yards. I mean, the distance apart from the barbed
wires would be like over this room, quite close. So that I could
see perfectly well what was happening in this area.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, is this a
convenient time for the morning recess?
THE COURT: Yes. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:27 a.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I just want
to point out what I thought might have been a misunderstanding
in my application this morning.
My friend said he hasn't heard an application
such as I was making. I thought I had mentioned the word "commission",
and I intended it to be such an application, and I wanted to point
out that I thought perhaps, although at the time I was speaking
to a point of law that didn't seem to be of well-known repute,
I think I am right in saying that 637 indicates that: "A
party to a proceeding to which this Act applies may apply for
an order appointing a commissioner to take the evidence of a witness
who (a) is, by reason of ....", and then: " (ii) some
other good and sufficient cause, not likely to be able to attend
at the time the trial is held, or (b) is out of Canada.
I noted too that in the case of R.
v. Bulleyment (1979) 46 C.C.C. (2nd), 429, the Court of Appeal
of Ontario has held that such an application may be made during
the trial. However, the application would only be granted -- or
however, in deciding whether or not to grant the application,
the trial judge is entitled to decide such factors as to whether
the trial is disrupted by the taking of evidence and the possible
prejudice to the opposite party resulting therefrom, as well as
the consequences that the jury will not have the advantage of
observing the demeanour of the witness.
In view of the fact that it didn't seem
clear that my friend acceeded to the factor, the position, that
there was such a right, I simply want to re-affirm that I was
intending my application to be regarded as one under s. 637 (a) (ii), and although
I am not asking Your Honour to rule on this at this time, I would
like Your Honour to consider my application in light of these
remarks and in that section for consideration at a later point.
I will be renewing it with the same factual
reasons as I gave before. And I might point out that I also indicated
at the beginning of the case that I was going to make an application
at the end of the Crown's evidence that the witness, Fried, who
was called at the preliminary hearing and gave evidence which
I would want for my defence, I would be seeking his examination
under commission as well.
Now, he is in New York City, and I was
prepared to make that application at the end of the Crown's case
to convenience the Court, but I put the Crown on notice that I
would be seeking that order.
So I am simply re-affirming what I said
previously, identifying the section number and indicating that
I would be, if possible, raising the issue with you again, perhaps
tomorrow or at a later stage, respecting Dr. Udo Walehdy [Walendy].
Thank you very much, Your Honour.
THE COURT: I think, Mr. Christie, one
of the reasons that I dismissed your application without prejudice
-- in effect you are making it again-- was because at the present
time, on what you've told me concerning Mr. Walendy, the wording
of s. 637 is incompatible with his physical presence in this country
and being available, at least at this time, to testify.
In so far as the other matter is concerned
regarding the witness in New York City, I understand you are not
making an application now. You are merely advising that you may
very well be making such an application at the appropriate time.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. Because I have asked
my friend to produce the witness, and so far he has declined;
but I am simply indicating that if he does not produce the witness
by the end of his case, that is what my application will be.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Is there
anything further from either side.
MR. GRIFFITHS: No, Your Honour. I just
indicate that I will not be producing the witness by the end of
the case and I will be confirming that. That will be the argument
I expect my friend to make, but I will not be producing that witness from
New York City, and I was not aware that s. 637 was being used
for Udo Walendy, and I am obliged to my friend for pointing that
out.
THE COURT: Thank you, gentlemen.
Bring in the jury, please.
--- The jury returns. 12:05 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, prior to the morning recess
you were telling us that you had a clear view from the mortuary
where your friend worked of the area of the Krematoria II and
III, or what are marked on the plan.
Can you tell us what you saw when trucks
would come to that area?
A. May I have the map again?
THE COURT: I think, before we go any
further, what we are all looking at on the screen -- that's Exhibit
16, I believe, isn't it?
THE REGISTRAR: It hasn't been introduced,
Your Honour.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Perhaps, before we go further,
that can be introduced. It's been marked by Dr. Vrba indicating
that Block 27, where his friend was living and where the mortuary is, and it is a plan said to be of Birkenau.
THE COURT: Please mark it now, otherwise
things could become somewhat confused.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
---EXHIBIT NO. 16: Transparency of Birkenau complex, BI, BII, BIII.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, you were explaining the camp enclosure, Birkenau,
when you were there.
A. Yes.
Q. All right? Carry on. Now ....
A. This means this was Birkenau I. Here are women and here
were men.
Q. We are looking at the left side of the drawing and on the
bottom --
A. On this side of the drawing were women and here were men.
And to make the geography clear, south on this map is in this
direction, and this I know because on clear days from this place
where I lived -- I lived here in this place, but when I go as
far as this and could look through the wires, I could see mountains,
and I knew that those are the Bezkydy. These were Slovak mountains.
Q. Slovak mountains. And these were ---
A. In the south.
Q. Now, I put to you another one, and this is three-dimensional,
tilted; another one that we have seen before as a flat plan.
A. Yes. So this would be the flat plan similar to that one
which I drew after my escape, and this means that Birkenau I was
two -- this was "A" and this was "B". In "A"
were women; in "B" were men. This complex was Birkenau
II, and it was not built up at that time.
Q. When you first move in.
A. In January 1943. And this complex did not exist whatsoever
in January 1943.
Q. Now, where were you living in January of 1943?
A. I was living in this building here. And this building was
called Block No. 16.
Q. And where were you working after January '43?
A. After January '43 I was working back in Kanada. This means by daytime or by nighttime I was
transported to the ramp, and by daytime to the Kanada storehouse
in Auschwitz I.
Q. All right.
A. I was marched there. In other words, I was only changing
my barrack from Auschwitz I into a barrack in Birkenau. That was
a change on January 15th. And here I stayed until January 8th.
Q. I'm sorry?
A. June 8th, 1943.
Q. All right. During that next six months ....
A. Yes.
Q. ....can you tell us whether you saw any of the truckloads
or lorries of people coming from the direction of the train ramp
into Birkenau that you described for us yesterday?
A. Certainly.
Q. Can you tell us where they went?
A. Because when I finished my work, if I may call it that way,
when this Kommando finish the work on the ramp, the Kommando went
home. Now, when I was home and somebody else was on the ramp,
when I was in the day Kommando, then I would see that those trucks
with those who were not marched into the camp, the healthy men
and the healthy women went, so to say, in front of my nose by
this main entrance, by this road, into this region, which was
surrounded by barbed wire, electrified barbed wire, and unloaded
in this yard. So that it was my privilege and right of the prisoners
that when they are not working, they can walk. This is the main road.
Furthermore, here, this is Block 27, and next to the Block
27, here, it was a wooden structure.
Q. Is it shown on this plan?
A. It is not shown on this map because it was only made fro
wood, and this was called Leichenkeller, which means mortuary.
And this was a mortuary for prisoners who died by daytime in the
prison compound, and in this mortuary there was a very close check
on the numbers of the prisoners so that one knows who died, who
is not dead. So considerable administration was being kept.
Q. Were you ever in that mortuary?
A. I was frequently in the mortuary, because Registrar in the
mortuary was Fred Wetzler, with whom I escaped later who was from
the same town I was, who I knew from home, and with whom I escaped
from Auschwitz. This means if I may have this main picture, if
I was not working, I used every occasion to go to the mortuary,
because there was the company of Wetzler, who was my closest friend.
Secondly, we conspire from the very start with Wetzler the
conspiracy of escape. Wetzler by that time lost three brothers
in the Sonderkommando. And it gave me safety, because by staying
in the mortuary, this Wetzler, it usually contained two hundred,
three hundred, four hundred bodies. The S.S. didn't like the stench
which accumulated there, so we had a peaceful teatime in that
place, and if I may have the picture, also naturally from this
place I could see perfectly what was happening on this road and
what's happening here, from the crematoria.
Q. You described barbed wire. Was there any kind of fence around
those buildings that are crematoria that would prevent you from
seeing what was happening there?
A. Not at the start. At the start I could see perfectly well
from here, in January 1943, February 1943, perfectly well what
is happening here. The distance is not more than fifty, sixty
yards. I mean, the distance apart from the barbed wires would
be like over this room, quite close. So that I could see perfectly
well what was happening in this area.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, is this a convenient time for the
morning recess?
THE COURT: Yes. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:27 a.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I just want to point out what I thought
might have been a misunderstanding in my application this morning.
My friend said he hasn't heard an application such as I was
making. I thought I had mentioned the word "commission",
and I intended it to be such an application, and I wanted to point
out that I thought perhaps, although at the time I was speaking to a point of
law that didn't seem to be of well-known repute, I think I am
right in saying that 637 indicates that: "A party to a proceeding
to which this Act applies may apply for an order appointing a
commissioner to take the evidence of a witness who (a) is, by
reason of ....", and then: " (ii) some other good and
sufficient cause, not likely to be able to attend at the time
the trial is held, or (b) is out of Canada.
I noted too that in the case of R. v. Bulleyment (1979)
46 C.C.C. (2nd), 429, the Court of Appeal of Ontario has held
that such an application may be made during the trial. However,
the application would only be granted -- or however, in deciding
whether or not to grant the application, the trial judge is entitled
to decide such factors as to whether the trial is disrupted by
the taking of evidence and the possible prejudice to the opposite
party resulting therefrom, as well as the consequences that the
jury will not have the advantage of observing the demeanour of
the witness.
In view of the fact that it didn't seem clear that my friend
acceeded to the factor, the position, that there was such a right,
I simply want to re-affirm that I was intending my application
to be regarded as one under s. 637 (a) (ii), and although I am not asking Your
Honour to rule on this at this time, I would like Your Honour
to consider my application in light of these remarks and in that
section for consideration at a later point.
I will be renewing it with the same factual reasons as I gave
before. And I might point out that I also indicated at the beginning
of the case that I was going to make an application at the end
of the Crown's evidence that the witness, Fried, who was called
at the preliminary hearing and gave evidence which I would want
for my defence, I would be seeking his examination under commission
as well.
Now, he is in New York City, and I was prepared to make that
application at the end of the Crown's case to convenience the
Court, but I put the Crown on notice that I would be seeking that
order.
So I am simply re-affirming what I said previously, identifying
the section number and indicating that I would be, if possible,
raising the issue with you again, perhaps tomorrow or at a later
stage, respecting Dr. Udo Walehdy [Walendy].
Thank you very much, Your Honour.
THE COURT: I think, Mr. Christie, one of the reasons that I
dismissed your application without prejudice -- in effect you
are making it again-- was because at the present time, on what
you've told me concerning Mr. Walendy, the wording of s. 637 is
incompatible with his physical presence in this country and being
available, at least at this time, to testify.
In so far as the other matter is concerned regarding the witness
in New York City, I understand you are not making an application
now. You are merely advising that you may very well be making
such an application at the appropriate time.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. Because I have asked my friend to produce
the witness, and so far he has declined; but I am simply indicating
that if he does not produce the witness by the end of his case,
that is what my application will be.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Is there anything further
from either side.
MR. GRIFFITHS: No, Your Honour. I just indicate that I will
not be producing the witness by the end of the case and I will
be confirming that. That will be the argument I expect my friend
to make, but I will not be producing that witness from New York City, and
I was not aware that s. 637 was being used for Udo Walendy, and
I am obliged to my friend for pointing that out.
THE COURT: Thank you, gentlemen.
Bring in the jury, please.
--- The jury returns. 12:05 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, prior to the morning recess you were telling us
that you had a clear view from the mortuary where your friend
worked of the area of the Krematoria II and III, or what are marked
on the plan.
Can you tell us what you saw when trucks would come to that
area?
A. May I have the map again?
THE COURT: I think, before we go any further, what we are all
looking at on the screen -- that's Exhibit 16, I believe, isn't
it?
THE REGISTRAR: It hasn't been introduced, Your Honour.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Perhaps, before we go further, that can be introduced.
It's been marked by Dr. Vrba indicating that Block 27, where his
friend was living and where the mortuary is, and it is a plan
said to be of Birkenau.
THE COURT: Please mark it now, otherwise things could become
somewhat confused.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
---EXHIBIT NO. 16: Transparency of Birkenau complex, BI, BII, BIII.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Q. So Dr. Vrba, Exhibit 16 I am showing now
on the screen, can you tell us what you saw?
A. I came from the night shift where several transports during
the night arrived, but I was exchanged on the night shift approximately
at five o'clock in the morning and broke into my barracks for
sleep. Instead of sleeping, I get out from the barrack and walk
over to Block 27 to the mortuary to talk to my friend, Wetzler.
This mortuary had a window on this side.
Q. Indicating on the side closest to the crematoria?
A. On the side closest to the crematoria. So that when I, before
the window, in front of the window was a table, and on the table
coffee was served, or tea. The dead were around this table. There
was such a corner with paper and coffee and a window. While I
was drinking my coffee I could see that the people from the night
which I had seen arrive, most of them were not seen but there
were several hundred, first on this yard which was enclosed with
electric fences, and with tower guards, and they went into this
building which is known to us as Krematorium No. II. This Krematorium No. II had, apart from
buildings, long bunkers which were approximately the height of
two such tables. Say the bunker was about this height, above a
head of a human being.
Q. All right. You are indicating about six and a half, seven
feet?
A. I would think so. In other words, a man who would climb
on it would have to lift his hands and sort of make an exercise
in order to swing himself on top of the bunker. This bunker had
air lifts, openings for airing, approximately three or four, along,
which were covered by wooden or some lid which was easily removable.
THE COURT: Covered by ---
THE WITNESS: Lids. From the distance I couldn't see if it was
a wooden or a metallic lid. Then I saw Sanitäts Dienst Gefreiter,
which is ---
Q. And you called it ....
A. The sanitation service corporal. And he came having about
four or five of those Zyklon tubes which I knew very well from
loading into the Red Cross van. And he came to the bunker and
he put them down, and then he started to put those lids, those
tins on top of the bunker until he had them all on. And then he
climbed on the bunker by holding on his hands and in a sporty
way swinging himself over, which attracted my attention because
it was not usually the demeanour of S.S. men to make sport. He
then, on top of this bunker, took out a gas mask which he had
hang over and put on the gas mask, and with something which, from
a distance of about fifty yards, opened the lid of the Zyklon-B
tubes, which was well-known to me from distance, and then he went
to one of the vents in a leisurely step, opened the vent and shoved
in the content of the tin in the vent in a leisurely way, and
when he was finished he a couple of times has hit the ---
Q. Indicating tapped the tin.
A. Tapped on that opening. Then he closed the opening, opens
the tin, again in a rather leisurely way, having the gas mask
on, and went to the next vent where the procedure was repeated
until he dropped into each vent one or two of those tins -- sometimes
one, sometimes two. And when he cleared it he took the empty vents
to the edge of the bunker, climbed down from the bunker, took
the empty tins again down from the bunker, put down his gas mask,
put the gas mask back into his holder, and with the tins under
the hands walked away, disappearing inside the crematorium.
Q. Did you see any people come out of the crematorium, any
of the hundreds that you saw go in?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Did you see any of the hundreds of people you saw go into
the crematorium go out?
MR. CHRISTIE: So far he didn't say he saw hundreds go in.
THE WITNESS: No. I saw the crematoria, and within the vicinity
of the crematoria from January 1943 until April 7, 1944, as the
time went, this was the first crematorium and this is where I
was witnessing the gassings of the first in the crematorium. Soon
after the crematorium, three were opened. They are called II and
III, because Krematorium I was a smaller arrangement, which was
in Auschwitz I, and we are here Auschwitz II, and later there was Krematorium IV and Krematorium
V, all of them surrounded with a barbed fence, electrically charged,
with towers to guard, and the entrance was only this side to Krematorium
IV and Krematorium V, and entrance was this side to Krematorium
II and to Krematorium III.
Until the day 7 April, 1944, this railway line was reaching
only about to this gate.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Halfway up the camp.
A. That's right. And there were none of that roads. Therefore
they were not recorded on the map which I prepared after my escape
in Slovakia in April 1944. Similarly, on that map which is one
of the exhibits, it can be seen that it is only indicated that
this is the building, but it was not finished on April 7.
Q. Can you describe for us what would go on inside the mortuary?
Can you describe what you saw out the window? What would go on
inside the mortuary?
A. Inside the mortuary in Block 27?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. This means inside the mortuary.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. The procedure was the following:
This is the blocks of the male camp, and that were store out
in front of the block. In other words, when there was called to
roll appel, to roll call, which was twice a day, in the morning
at six and in the evening before the dark, before the sun set,
then all prisoners had to line up in front of their barracks.
Now, those who couldn't stand to the line-up were, dead or alive, lined up in tens in rows, laying
in such a way that the first person would have his legs spread
and the second person would be put on him with the head between
the legs, and his own legs spread. So that we were in tens --
five heads on one side and five heads on other side, easy to count.
Then the prisoners had to line up. We had to line in front of
the barrack. This is a barrack, and the prisoners were lined up
in rows of ten and so on.
So usually in front of such a barrack in Birkenau, in front
of each barrack there is an estimate of eight hundred, one thousand,
two thousand people in front of barrack. Now the people had to
line up in rows of ten in such a way that when the S.S. man came
to count them, he had a long ruler and he could rule this way
or this way by walking by the lines in front or the side, and
could see, without too much counting, how many rows of ten are
there, and that nobody from the rows missing. If there were 953
people, then you had ninety-five rows and three in the last row.
Now, those who couldn't stand were out laying, the dead and
alive together, in such rows, and they were again stapled up to
ten.
Q. Stacked up to ten.
A. Stacked up to ten.
Q. When the signal came to count -- now, can I have all the
other maps?
MR. GRIFFITHS: May I have the barrack map, Your Honour, shwoing
[showing] the roll call, Exhibit 17, or the drawing?
--- EXHIBIT NO. 17: Transparency of sketch showing roll call.
THE WITNESS: There came a signal which was given by a gong,
and from that moment on nobody who moved in the camp -- no movement
in the camp was allowed. This means anybody who would move, apart
from the S.S., would be shot. Then the S.S., when everything was
absolutely still, counted -- a separate S.S. -- the number of
prisoners in each Block, and this was conveyed to a table here
in the middle where the camp commander was sitting, and his registrars,
and he knew exactly how many people are in the camp on that particular
evening, and it was then said that so many and so many prisoners
are present. It was not identified if they are dead or alive.
When everything was all right, then that was the end of the
roll call. If one prisoner was missing in the general count, then
the procedures were initiated to find the prisoner, and if that
prisoner wasn't find, either in the latrine or under some bed,
within twenty minutes an alarm went out that the prisoner is missing;
but this happened very rarely.
Once this count has been confirmed, the roll call was called
off, but before it was called off guards mounted the towers which
are here in small quadrangles, and the camp was thus hermetically
sealed. In other words, it was known that nobody of a prisoner
can be found between the inner and outer perimeter. This means
the roll call confirmed that all prisoners in Birkenau camp --
at that time only this camp was operating -- all prisoners were
inside this quadrangle and prisoners were inside this quadrangle.
And then, with the exception of prisoners who might have been
at the ramp under special guard -- and this was noted, that so and so,
many are under such and such a guard, and when it was agreed that
this is so, then electricity was switched into the wires and that
is guards were called off because there was nobody in between.
After that the bodies were being disposed. So this means, if
I can have ....
We are starting a procession. One man carried one body, and
from the whole camp you could see a peculiar doubles marching
to this place.
Q. Indicating a mortuary.
A. Yes. And sometimes it was difficult to see which one is
dead and which one is alive because they were bone and skin. So
that the live one was carrying the dead one with his head here
and dragging him behind and holding on his hands, brought him
to the mortuary, and there he put him down and the name of the
dead one was written down in a book and the dead body was stapled
here and in this wooden shack the bodies were stapled in tens
again so that it can be easily counted.
Q. Stacked in tens.
A. Stacked in tens. And in the months of January, February,
March, April 1943 the number of bodies were between three hundred
and five hundred. The number of people in the camp varied close
to fifteen thousand, very rough estimate.
MR. CHRISTIE: Is that fifteen or fifty?
THE WITNESS: Fifteen. In the main camp, roughly. This means
it can be twelve, it can be eighteen. It varied from ---
MR. GRIFFITHS: That's just the males, not the women?
A. Not the women, no. The women -- between the men and the
women there was a road and gates, so that there was no communication;
but the same process was going on at the women's camp. They were
like mirror camps.
Now, here the bodies were stacked, and waited until midnight.
At midnight there was some working done on the bodies.
THE COURT: There was a ....
THE WITNESS: Work done on the bodies. There was a special Kommando,
work group, which was called Leichekommando [Leichenkommando],
dead body Kommando, and they used a special instrument which in
modern times the ladies use for curling the hair.
MR. CHRISTIE: Again, I don't know, I don't know whether this
witness is giving hearsay evidence.
THE WITNESS: I happened to be present. This was taking place
while I was sitting here having the coffee with Wetzler. And two
younger boys who were the assistants were opening the mouths of
the dead bodies and with the mirror checking if he had got gold
teeth. If there were gold teeth, he went in with that instrument
and broke out those gold teeth and they were put into a tin.
Normally, when there were three, four hundred bodies, the tin
would be the size of a litre tin which was full, and it was gold
and meat tissue and blood altogether.
Now, around midnight would come some S.S. man with the same
lorry which I have described many times from that lorry fleet,
and he would ask for the paper for the dead which Fred, my friend,
has prepared, and I often help him with that.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: That's Fred Wetzler?
A. Wetzler, yes. And then, with assistance would load the body
on to the truck which was done in such a way with four assistants
-- two were on the truck and two were down on the truck and two
were swinging the body to the truck, and when the body hits a
truck, the two on the truck again took the body and swung it into
the back of the truck, and at the back of the truck there were
again two guys and they were doing this ....
Q. Stacking?
A. Stacking into tens; and when all was finished, when all
was finished then the papers between the S.S. men and Wetzler
were exchanged, in which Wetzler got a receipt for so and such
bodies of such and such numbers, and such and such tin of gold
teeth. But the habit was that the S.S. men liked to write, "Half
a tin", because the tin was full, of one tin, or "One
tin" when there were two tins. And when Wetzler signed that,
he got a box of cigars.
The bodies, then, I could see the car when it was loaded --
can I have the picture, please -- when out this road. Here was
the first gate.
Q. Indicating a road in the middle of the men's camp.
A. Yes. These were brick barracks, and these were wooden barracks,
and here is a road which was wide enough for trucks. The trucks
went this way. By the way everything was written up here, thousands
of bulbs were burning.
THE COURT: Everything was lit up?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Thousands of bulbs were burning. And he went
here with a car, and then he came here to the gate, then he turned
at the gate. At the gate he was searched. The car was searched
at the gate -- if there is no living body hidden in the car. So
a sort of a search went through.
Once that search went through, he turned the car here, went
here into the crematoria and behind the corner, which I couldn't
see ....
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: All right. If you couldn't see it, you can't
tell us what happened.
A. And then I saw him after five minutes returning this way
and going home.
Q. Out the camp ....
A. Out of the camp, his duty was finished.
Q. What happened to the people that were not dead but were
stacked with the dead people at the roll call? You said those
who couldn't stand up for the roll call were stacked with the
dead people.
MR. CHRISTIE: I didn't hear him say that.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Well, I did. Have I got that wrong?
MR. CHRISTIE: There's been a fair amount of leading thus far,
but I do suggest that is a leading statement. Maybe the witness
will agree with it. I don't know.
THE COURT: I don't agree with it, and that's the important
thing. One, he has not been -- the Crown has not been leading,
and two, I heard the witness say that the living and the dead
were stacked up together. Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
THE COURT: Then please answer Crown counsel's question.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: What happened to those who were living who
were not able to stand for the roll call?
A. There were several procedures which varied from place to
place.
THE COURT: Just what you know.
THE WITNESS: From what I have seen.
THE COURT: From what you have seen, exactly.
THE WITNESS: Some of the Block leaders -- this depended on
the decision of the Block leaders. May I please have the map again?
The Block leaders might have decided a short process, in which
case the half the prisoners was killed in a way that the coffee
was brought in demijohns, and they had ears through which carrying
woods, stacked through.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Could you compare a demijohn to a milk can
in terms of size?
A. Yes. The tea was carried, was carried into the Block in
a demijohn from the barrack container which would contain tea
for thousand people which was big at least two hundred fifty litres,
if every party should get at least one fifth of a litre, and these
had two ears made -- the barrel was from wood and the ears were
made from metal. In order that such a bottle can be carried, there
were two wooden rods of considerable massivity which were pulled
through the ears, and two prisoners, one here and one here, would
hold it -- I am not a very good painter -- and carry it. They
were carrying it from the kitchen to the barrack; and when it
was emptied from the barrack to the kitchen.
Now, these rods ---
Q. The wooden rods?
A. The wooden rods, when the thing was not carried, were not
in those ears but laying by the side. So the people who were still
alive and the Blockältester, or the Block senior, was one
of the German professional criminals with the green triangle.
Q. We will get to that.
A. Then he would put the rod upon the neck of the prisoner
and balance on it for a minute of two until there was no sign
of life, and ---
Q. You saw this with your own eyes?
A. Many times. Now, there were other Blockältesters who
didn't like this procedure, and they had introduced -- we need
a map, the map of Birkenau.
THE COURT: Exhibit 18.
MR. GRIFFITHS: That would be the sketch of the barrel, Your
Honour.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 18: Transparency -- Sketch of a barrel.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Now, you put on Ehxibit 16, which is the map
of Birkenau.
A. This was a main kitchen here.
Q. Indicating the upper left quadrangle of what you described
the men's camp in the bottom in that quadrangle.
A. Yes. And this was a so-called sauna where the newcomers
from the ramp were bathed and shaven and deprived of their clothes.
Q. And that's in the upper righthand quadrangle at the bottom
of that quadrangle?
A. Yes. That's "F". But here, this Block was called
Block 7 and Block 8 and was called Krankenbau, which means building
for sick people -- in other words, I should have translated it
to hospital, but I don't dare to translate it as such because
it means something different in our language, and I am trying
to reproduce the vernacular of the Nazi language as it was used
at that time.
Now, this prisoners, this procedure required a little bit of
paperwork because the Blockältester, the senior of the Block,
had to make a transfer list and send that person with the transfer
list to this Krankenbau, to this hospital, where he was accepted
and put in a bunker.
Q. You've been in the hospital?
A. Yes, several times, because Fred Wetzler, when he was not
working in the mortuary, was stationed in Barrack 7 for taking care of the half-dead. In
other words, the difference between taking care of dead and half-dead
was sort of done by the same person.
Now, in this Krankenbau there were absolutely no facilities
for any medical treatment, and as a rule there was no water or
mineral water, and there were no beds but certain bunks. That
looked from inside this way. There was a wall along the barrack
and this is a wall, and along this wall there were three rows
of boxes, like pens for animals, and those sick people were put
five per pen into the pen with one blanket or with no blanket,
and they didn't have to go any more for roll call. The roll call
were done simply that by walking around, they counted five per
pen as they didn't bother to drag them out and to drag them back;
and when somebody was dead, then the living threw him out from
the pen and then he was collected and was proclaimed dead.
The number of those who came into this hospital and survived
was perhaps one to a hundred, the chances. In other words, a hospital
was sort of -- the Krankenbau was such a thing that when the Blockältester
was fussy and didn't want to kill the prisoner who was dying,
they brought him to this so-called hospital and there he was left
to die. However, it was a hospital filled up too much, so that
there was no space; there is no space for more than seven or eight
hundred prisoners. Then one of those trucks would come into the
hospital.
Q. Exhibit 16 ....
A. One of the trucks would come here with an SDG -- Sanitäts
Dienst Gefreiter -- Corporal of the Sanitary Service, and all
prisoners now had to go for a roll call. All were dragged out from those bunks and lined
up, and those who were not standing went to one side, and those
who could not stand were taken back into the block, or sometimes
they decided that the whole situation is untenable, in which case
the dead and the dying were loaded on that truck, which I know
from the ramp and the mortuary, they were loaded on the truck.
If it went standing, then standing; if it went legs, then legs.
The truck was closed, turn, came out here, came out here, and
moved here, and that's the last we saw from them.
Q. In the Krematorium II?
A. In the Krematorium. Papers were signed so that the truck
driver had to sign that he took so and so many prisoners away.
So that the next roll call, the Blockältesters, the senior
of the block, has got a paper saying that, "I've got so and
so much prisoners", and the missing ones have to be taken
away on the truck.
THE COURT: Exhibit 19 will be the sketch of the barrack of
the sick.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 19: Transparency -- Sketch of barrack of sick persons.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: You told us earlier that initially there was,
in January, when you first moved to Birkenau, that there was just
a barbed wire fence around Krematorium II. Did that ever change?
A. Barbed wire fence?
Q. I think that's what you said.
A. Yes. Can I have the picture?
Q. Did that ever change? Was there ever any change in that
fencing?
A. There was no change in the fencing except that the krematorium,
this crematorium, Krematorium II, had the fencing perimeter, and
Krematorium III was not finished. When Krematorium III was finished
some time later, they connected the fences and made common entrances
for both crematoria; whereas before this was finished and this
was finished several months later, there was entrance only here.
Q. Krematorium II?
A. Yes. So they adjust the fences around the crematoria as
they built up the crematoria.
Similarly, they started to build simultaneously Krematorium
IV and Krematorium V, which I had many times opportunity to see
after I had been transferred.
Q. Now, you said you were working on the ramps, and in Kanada,
I believe you said until June 8, 1943.
A. Right.
Q. And did you change jobs?
A. Yes. There came a possibility and an opportunity to change
jobs.
Q. And were there any -- perhaps you can explain to us what
your new job was and any changes in the camp that led to your
new job.
A. While seeing going on the mass murder on the ramp, I had
plans to escape from the ramp. However, without going into details
what was the weaknesses of the ramp and what was the plans of
the escape, I suddenly realized that the Germans noticed the weaknesses too and made great architectural changes on the ramp which
made my escape from the ramp not probable as a success. And therefore
I used the opportunity, on June 8th, for June 8th this was already
build up -- between January 15, 1943 and June 8, 1943 they were
building this camp, which was a camp BII, Birkenau IIB -- this
was Birkenau I, IA and IB.
Now, this complex was Birkenau II, and then it had subsections
"A", "B", "C", "D", "E"
and "F", whereas Birkenau I had subsections "A"
and "B", "A" being the women, and "B"
being the men.
Now, all men from Birkenau IB were transferred to Birkenau
IID; that was our new camp. This was a new male camp, and after
disinfecting the remaining barracks the women got both parts of
this camp. In other words, there was a bigger influx or bigger
need for female wards, and they converted them, "A"
and "B" in June into women camp, whereas all men were
in "B" IID.
Now, by that time I was a year or almost a year in the concentration
camp Auschwitz, and anybody who lived that long started to have
various friends. Acquaintances were struck up, mainly acquaintances
which came from freedom and were often of political nature --
people who were in the same trade union or in the same Czech Nationalist
Party, or in the same Polish Army unit, or in the same brigade
in Spain during the fight against Franco, or in the same district
of a Communist Party, or of a Social Democratic Party, they recognize
themselves and they started to organize themselves clandestinely.
Q. Clandestinely?
A. Yes.
Q. Secretly?
A. Secretly, yes, because any sort of such an organization
would be punished draconically. This was against the rules. However,
the objective of that was to improve the camp living standards,
and this was necessary by eliminating the criminals from their
position.
Q. You can stop there. You mentioned this earlier, and I wonder
if we can take this opportunity to talk about the different categories
of prisoners at Birkenau and Auschwitz and how, whether they were
identifiable from their uniform, their prison garb and how they
were identifiable.
A. Well, with some experience it was possible for an experienced
man in Auschwitz to identify from a simple look at the prisoner
quite a few things, but for that one required already some experience,
because there were no handbooks.
Now, each prisoner had a number, not only tattooed on his hand,
but also sewn on his garb, and say if a prisoner had a number
23220 on his garb, there was a triangle, and if the triangle was
red, this means that they considered him a political prisoner.
If the triangle was green -- I don't have green pencils here --
this means that the prisoner is a criminal by profession before
he came to the camp. If the triangle was violet, that meant that
he is in concentration because of studying the Bible, this means
pacifist gentleman, Jehovah Witnesses who came to concentration
camp because they made pacifist propaganda which didn't suit the
Nazis.
Q. Well, anyway, Jehovah Witnesses.
A. Yes. Those who had black triangles were called anti-social
elements, and that comprised either people who were accused of
avoiding honest work. Then there were a different colour of purple,
which were people who were accused of homosexuality.
So by this, as far as the Jews were concerned, who were the
majority in the camp, they had a red triangle, but underneath
the red triangle there was a yellow triangle, so that it altogether
gave a David Star with a yellow background which meant political
Jew.
Now, by looking at the people I could, for instance, say that
if somebody had the number 30000 and had a political triangle,
red with a yellow background, I knew that he is probably a Slovak
Jew just by looking at him and from the number, because I knew
when the number came in. I came in into Auschwitz on 30 June,
1944 [1942], and my number was 44000, and because to recognize
with whom I am meeting, and the camp was full of victims of the
so-called political department -- this means informants -- there
were many informers who came into the camp and left children,
mothers, fathers and so on at home and the political department
said, "Either you work for us or we kill your children"
---
THE COURT: No, just a moment.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: You can only tell us what you heard or saw,
not what somebody else said to you.
A. Right. It was necessary to recognize the people as much
as possible in order to survive. So those were the times.
Q. All right. So before I stop you, you are going to tell us
what your new job is that you are able to get because of your
connections and seniority in the camp.
A. Having had considerable seniority after living almost one
year in the camp and looking healthy, again -- I, of course, went
through typhus and various things, but after I overcome it and
collected myself, I gain the confidence of various members of
various political parties.
THE COURT: Just ---
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Tell us what you did or what you were assigned
to.
A. I were assigned to be assistant registrar in Block IID.
Q. What does that mean? What does a registrar do?
A. I was in Block IID, in Birkenau IID, Block 9, and an assistant
registrar would have a file of prisoners who are in this block,
in Block 9.
Q. In the barracks, yes.
A. And would, on their account, go to the kitchen and get the
bread and soup and tea for those people, and he would also, every
day, prepare the papers for the roll call. So he would say that
of this barrack are 920 people; of that are 397 Jews, 257 Poles
and 22 Germans -- something like that -- the statistics of the
barrack. And as long as there was no hitch with the roll call,
he didn't have much else to do.
In other words, it was an easy work. If the roll call didn't
fit, then he was in danger, because if he made an error and the roll call had to stand and the
whole S.S. had to stand a couple of hours until they found out
he made an error in the number of prisoners that nobody was missing,
then he was killed. So there is a risk, but otherwise reasonably
comfortably work.
Q. Now, from being assistant registrar in the men's camp, Birkenau
II, did you change your job again?
A. Very soon. In July 1943 they open a new camp. Meanwhile
this camp was occupied, "B", these two rows, and they
opened a camp BIIA, which was quarantine camp.
Q. Quarantine camp?
A. Quarantine camp. And they started a new way of accepting
prisoners. Until then, once they accepted the prisoners from ramps
-- this means those who were selected for work and not to be trucked
away you know where -- those prisoners were first put into the
quarantine camp for two, three or four months so that the health
officers of Auschwitz can say that they are decreasing the dangers
of typhus by having the new ones -- because typhus and various
diseases at Auschwitz are caused from outside, so consequently,
when there was a transport from the ramp came, and those who were
chosen not to work, they were then transported either here into
this complex, but those who were chosen to work were transported
in the quarantine camp and registered.
Now my job was to take the names, to take their nationality,
birth date, background. There was a card about everyone -- age,
profession, various informations -- race, origin of place -- and
then he said that he lived in Block 6 or Block 7 or Block 8. So this means,
when a transport of three thousand people came and two thousand
seven hundred went into these barracks ---
Q. In the direction of the crematoria.
A. --- or in this direction, then three hundred came here.
Q. Into the quarantine camp.
A. Quarantine camp. And now I had the possibility of speaking
with them because they saw elderly prisoner better dressed with
pencil and paper, etcetera, and the possibility of giving them
a piece of bread.
Q. Now, you can't tell us what was said to you, but can you
show us which barrack, or which block you were a recorder or registrar
of?
A. I was registrar of Barrack 15.
Q. Second from the gate.
A. This was the main gate. This means that any truck whatever
had to pass into Birkenau complex either through this main gate,
this means I could see in the distance of approximately forty
to fifty yards, or it went this way -- this is the road.
Q. On the bottom of the camp?
A. Yes. This was not built up, and there was only one way which
led into Krematorium IV and Krematorium V. So this means that
by daytime, if the transports arrived from the ramp, I could count
every car which went either this way, every truckload, or which
went either this way, and because my experience in Kanada on the
ramp, I knew that a hundred per truck, simply by counting those
trucks I knew how many people came more or less; but I know that the number hundred was kept pretty close.
The trucks were coming by from the ramp one after the other, but
not very densely because it takes the time to roll the truck and
they came accompanied by two motor bicycles, they were usually
the side cars, one motorbiker and on the side car a machine gunner
so that nobody gets any ideas of jumping down from the truck.
And those cars went in front of my eyes here or in front of
my eyes here. In the night, when I was, say, asleep at two o'clock,
when such a car went by, my barrack shook and all I had to do
was to count how many trucks went that way, or to count how many
times it went that way, because when you are in such a barrack
you know if it shakes from which side it shakes, small distances.
Moreover, in my role as a registrar of the block I had to many
times go out in front of my block because there are no windows,
only on top, but I could, under the pretext of controlling the
guards in front of the barracks who were responsible for the latrine
-- in other words, to control if the latrine is full, if the latrine
is not full -- you had to go out of the barrack and take a look
at what's happening. Moreover, if the latrine was full, which
was a barrel, in my clothes which was a little bit better as a
registrar I would take the prisoners and tell them to empty the
barrels in the middle of the night into the lavatories, here,
so that the barrack is not, so to say, contaminated by feces;
and under the pretext of sanitation, etcetera, I could many times
in the night take to prisoners this two big barrels of excrement
and move in the night to the official toilets, because by the night prisoners were not allowed to go to the official
toilets, they were not allowed to out to the barracks and see
what happened.
Q. May I stop you there?
MR. GRIFFITHS: It is one o'clock, Your Honour. Is this a convenient
time?
THE COURT: Two thirty.
--- The jury retires. 1:00 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Luncheon adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
--- The jury returns. 2:30 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank You, Your Honour.
Prior to the morning break there was a transparency on which
Dr. Vrba made some notations as to the different colours of badges,
and I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit, please, Your
Honour.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 20.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 20: Transparency -- sketch describing triangles worn by camp inmates.
Q. Dr. Vrba, this morning, at the break, you were describing for us your new position in the camp close
to the main gate and your new job as a block registrar or block
recorder.
A. The translation would be Block Scribe.
Q. Could you just tell us, briefly, about what the organization
of the camp would be in terms of -- you mentioned block elders
and block registrars. How was the camp organized in that way?
A. This is Auschwitz I, the external perimeter of guards. This
is Auschwitz I, the internal perimeter of guards, and I have magnified
this quadrant so that it is clear what was inside.
Q. This is the internal camp of Auschwitz I?
A. Of Auschwitz I.
MR. CHRISTIE: Perhaps he would be so kind as to identify the
origin of this drawing.
THE COURT: Yes, I agree. Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths. Would you
do that for us, please?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Can you tell us where this plan of Auschwitz I comes from?
MR. CHRISTIE: I think it comes from Filip Müller.
THE WITNESS: It comes from Martin Gilbert's book, "Auschwitz
and the Allies".
MR. GRIFFITHS: If I may lead, does it come from a book by Filip Müller?
A. This is quite possible. This is quite possible, but no matter
which book it comes, I can recognize it as an original drawing and identify each building
here.
Q. All right. I am not going to ask you to identify each building,
but perhaps you could indicate to us how the hierarchy of the
prison, of the concentration camp, the organization of the blocks
of the camps ....
A. Here is the main entrance to the camp. The camp is surrounded
with a double layer of electrical fences, and those are the guarded
towers. This construction here is a kitchen.
Q. Rough U-shape at the bottom of the drawing.
A. Is a kitchen. On top of the kitchen is an inscription, "For
all prisoners". Now, the blocks are numbered from 1 to 11.
This is a former female camp that I mentioned yesterday.
Q. That you crawled through naked after the typhus epidemic?
A. Yes.
Q. And after that I was stationed in the cell area of Block
4. Block 11 was the so-called punishment block which belonged
to the realm of organization which called herself political department
of Auschwitz concentration camp. Basically, this was the interrogation
place.
Q. I am going to stop you. Unless you were in there, you can't
tell us about it.
A. Pardon?
Q. Unless you were in there, you can't tell us about it.
A. I have been stationed for some time, and when I worked in
Buna, in Block 10, from the windows of Block 10 I could see what
was happening here.
Q. In Block 11.
A. However, I was in Block 4. Each of the blocks had Blockälteste,
senior prisoner, and this senior prisoner, in each block, had
a second in command, then each block had the Blockschreibe [Blockschreiber],
which translated literally would mean block scribe not registrar.
Q. But we have been calling that block registrar this morning.
A. Yes. Literary translation would be "scribe".
Q. Thank you.
A. Each of those block scribes knew exactly how many prisoners
are in each of the blocks, and here, I think, in one of these
blocks ---
Q. To the left of the kitchen.
A. --- to the left of the kitchen was a building which was
called Hauptschreib stube, which translated means Chief Writing
office. This means Central Registration Office. Each prisoner
brought to the camp and through this gate would be first processed.
This means he would be taken into the sauna for a bath, which
would be Block 1, I think, and he would go in and leave his clothes
outside, and when he comes out on the other side, he will be naked
and he will get prisoner garb.
From that moment on the only permitted property of a prisoner
was one handkerchief. Pencil, paper, anything of that sort was
considered conspiracy and would be punished very strictly if found
on regular visits.
After this was the scribes from the Central Office and would
take chairs and tables and parade the prisoners. Each prisoner
would have a file card on which was his name, birth date, nationality,
origin and date when he came in, plus a place for special remarks,
and his number, which he received in the camp. The numbers were
consecutive and the dead prisoners' number was never revealed.
After the file has been made, the file has been given to one
of the block scribes wherever it was a decision that this particular
prisoner goes, and then the card was in the file of the block
scribe as well as a file in the Central Office.
Thus, the scribes in each of those blocks knew exactly how
many prisoners are at any time there, and if a prisoner died he
has to be identified by his number, which at the start was written
with grey pencil, with an ink pencil, on his forearm and on his
chest so that the bodies of dead which accumulated every day in
front of the blocks were identified in the evening by reading
the numbers.
Q. Did that system change of writing the numbers on in ink?
A. The system of ink writing numbers changed because the ink
wore off, and so it was replaced with tattooing. So this would
be approximately the same in Birkenau.
Q. Can you show us where in Birkenau that process would take
place?
A. Yes. Yes. In Birkenau the map of Birkenau is here.
Q. Exhibit 16.
A. And when I refer to Birkenau, and always this far in January
1943 was occupied by prisoners. The Schreibstube was in Block
4 which would mean this block -- 1, 2, 3, 4 -- here was the Schreibstube.
Q. So that is the upper righthand quadrant of Birkenau I in
the first row of blocks.
A. Here. When the men in this main camp were transferred to
Bau Auschwitz II, building Section I to Building Section II, then
this Section II, the only prisoners were in building Section IID.
That is here, these two rows. This here was a kitchen, and this
here was a Chief Schreibstube.
Q. And you are indicating the kitchen immediately below the
words "BIID", or the numbers or letters.
A. Yes.
Q. And opposite that in the "BIID" camp was the Registrar's
Office.
A. That's right. Now, when I was transferred from BIID into
BIIA, then the Registrar's Office, if I remember well, was here
in Block 1, the Chief Registrar's Office.
Q. And that would be the Registrar in what camp?
A. For BII 8.
Q. For the quarantined camp?
A. Yes. I was in No. 15, the block scribe. I was the sub to
the first scribe in BIID, whose name was Gorrik (phonetic) a prisoner
with the number of 32000, and this chief scribe was then sub to the chief scribe in Auschwitz
I.
So that at the top of the hierarchy was the top administration
of Auschwitz I, and the administration in Auschwitz II, as far
as prisoners is concerned, went through Chief Scribe in BIID under
whom were all scribes, each in the individual blocks, and the
Chief Scribe of BIIA.
Q. Now, the lorries that you heard coming by in the nighttime,
or that you saw going in the daytime, can you tell us if they
ever went to the registration places?
A. No. The people who went to registration places were never
brought in by lorry. They were marched from the ramp, which was
not more than one half kilometer away, under guard, into the sauna.
Q. Yes. In the men's camp.
A. Yes, in the men's camp. And when this men's camp became
a female camp, then they were marched on foot between Krematoria
IV and V. There was also a sauna. I am not so sure what exactly
it is -- "F" on this map -- because much has been changed.
This map has been made approximately two, three months after I
escaped from certain details, I would say.
So all those prisoners who went in through the registration
process and have got a number came to the camp on foot, because
they were small groups. Those who came into the camp from the
ramp on those dumping trucks, they never enter any of those camps,
but enter the camp by only one possible entrance -- two possible
entrances. The main entrance was here.
Q. You indicate "A" at the bottom of the diagram.
A. That's right. This was a big tower and a building of a rather
considerable length which harbour inside the building, according
to my observations, a so-called Bereitschoft, which means emergency
unit. This means that day or night there was a unit of S.S. which
was completely dressed and armed, you know, just like in an ambulance
waiting for any event. So this was a research, which did have
nothing to do but to be called up in case of trouble.
Can I have the picture, please?
Consequently, the lorries which came from the ramp entered
this gate and went to the landing between Krematorium II and Krematorium
III, which were having a common queue of guards. Here you can
see the towers -- 1, 2, 3, 4.
Another way how to transport the victim to the Krematorium
IV and V was that they went here and between BIID and BIIC, which
is here. BIIC is this camp, and BIID this camp; here a road of
considerable width. And this road ends here blindly and goes into
the yard of Krematorium IV and Krematorium V, which is again enclosed
with an electrical fence and guarded towers. Here is a gate to
it.
Consequently, those prisoners who came to the camp were coming
on foot, and because there was now, from June 8th, 1943, registrar,
I could see each face of them because they had to pass through
registration in this camp which was their first stop. They stayed
there for three, four weeks, or three, four months. The administration in that respect weren't very clear and many of them
died in quarantine.
Q. All right. Now, Dr. Vrba, if I can go ahead a little bit
to the events surrounding April 7.
A. My escape.
Q. Yes, sir. And I am going to ask you, we heard a lot about
a chain of guards and electric fences, and I am going to ask you
how you escaped.
A. If I may first have the previous picture, if I may.
THE COURT: You are looking at Exhibit ....
MR. GRIFFITHS: 16, Your Honour.
THE WITNESS: This was Building Section 1. This was called Building
Section 2. And in April 7, when I escaped, the Building Section
1 was full, but Building Section 2 was not quite full. Here was
a quarantine camp in "A". In "B" was a family
camp which had a tragic end. They are Czech families from Theresienstadt,
a ghetto, who were kept for six months before they were gassed
on 7 March, just before I escape. This camp was empty. Here, in
"D", was the main camp and the main mass of the prisoners.
In "E" were gypsies, because the gypsies had not been
considered Aryan race, were rounded up and kept here for some
time in "BIIE" until they were later gassed, and that's
"BIIE". Here is a small camp called "BIIF",
and this was called the hospital camp.
So from this hospital in Block No. 7 they made a quite a big
complex of number of things. This third part was in building and
it was not called anything at that time except it is a future building Section 3.
Now, because those barracks did not yet exist, but the wood
for those barracks did exist ---
Q. The wood for the barracks.
A. Yes. And the wood was put together in the way how you see
wood put together in large shops in Toronto which sell lumber.
Say if you are coming to a lumber yard, you can see ten wagons
on foot stapled in a certain way.
Q. Stacked?
A. Stacked. Now, when the woods were stacked, the building
of the woods of the stack was made in such a way that there was
a stack of approximately ten wagons of wood. The stack has an
irregular shape as in the lumber business yards, and in one part
there was an empty space made, not filled with wood, and covered
again with wood.
Now, I would like to go to the -- and this was approximately
here.
Q. Indicating in the future building area 3.
A. In the future building area 3. Now, I would like to show
this place which I will mark here with a pencil. Roughly here.
Now, the system --
MR. GRIFFITHS: We are going to put on Exhibit No. 11.
THE WITNESS: Now, I have this whole map in a larger scale as
it was drawn up by me from my memory back in 1944, and that place
which I marked as a hiding place was here.
Now, the system which operated against prevention of escape was a system common to all German concentration
camps, and because the Germans had an experience of concentration
camps since 1933, it was considered foolproof.
Q. I am going to stop you and ask you about the system in this
camp that you know of.
A. Right. The system was the following:
There were the killer camps including the crematoria here surrounded
by barbed wires which consisted of electrical fences in double
rows; and before this barbed wire there was a ditch which could
be approximately four to five yards deep.
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes, because you couldn't not see it, living in the camp.
Now, this ditch has been made by hand by the prisoners. It was
a long process. They had to ditch it -- the earth was carried
in hats, and enormous ditches were built. Now, again this is in
red. Here is the electric fence, and here was a gate to the individual
subsections -- Section 1 1, Section 1 2, Section 1 3, etcetera.
By daytime, when the day broke, the prisoners were woken up
by the dawn and lined up in front of their barracks for the roll
call.
Q. Now, if it all checked out, the roll call was all right,
what happened then?
A. When the roll call was all right, the prisoners were aligned
for work outside the inner camp in this outer area, and when it
was given the signal that the roll call was all right, then guards
marched out, different guards, to this area.
Q. The outer chain of sentry posts on your map.
A. That's right. Now, this outer chain of sentries then operated
in such a way that when each was on its place and this was a diameter
of about two kilometers, thus it was about six kilometers long
and not connected with the road, it was all smooth, so that from
the towers which are here marked, from a crossfire not a mouse
could come through.
Now, when the signal was given that everything is all right
here, then they went to their places and were checked in the following
way:
One guy shouted this direction, "The queue stands".
This guy shouted to this guy, and this band, this shouting, until
the shout of, "I am in my place" started. Once this
procedure was finished, there was no use to keep the guards in
this electrically guarded fence, because prisoners were enclosed
here. The guards from here came down and went home, and the electrical
current was switched off.
Now, the prisoners marched to work in units of a hundred, two
hundred, three hundred or five hundred. Say they marched to work
in Krematorium IV and V, say they marched to move earth for the
camp, make it flat, etcetera. So suddenly the camp is full with
ten to fifteen thousand prisoners -- not individual. I mean the
freedom of movement was not that an individual prisoner could
move around, just move around in columns, teams, and each team
had a Kapo and each Kapo had a list of the prisoners which were
accompanying him for which he was personally responsible. So if one prisoner would wander around
here, around the place which was teeming with S.S. men and Kapos,
he would be very fast picked up as a loiterer.
Now, my system, then, was the following .... Now I need the
other map.
Q. Exhibit 16 now is projected.
A. Yes. My job was every day to report to the Chief Scribe.
This means I went from my block to the Chief Scribe of the block
of this camp, and there were collected all reports from each block
-- how many prisoners in each block, how many are dead, etcetera,
etcetera -- the technical details.
Now, the Chief Scribe could either take the bundle of papers
and bring it to the Chief Scribe here, or say that he is busy
and delegates his work to me, which he did with considerable preference
delegating it to me for the following reasons ---
THE COURT: Well, he delegated his work to you.
MR. GRIFFITHS: He delegated his work to you. So what did you
do when he delegated it to you? What freedom of movement did you
get?
A. Well, I got a certain freedom of movement. The freedom of
movement consisted that I was allowed to go out of this gate.
Here is a gate that I have to say my number and the purpose of
my trip. Then I would walk here, which is a distance of approximately
five hundred yards. Here was again a gate.
Q. In "BIID"?
A. In "BIID". Here was again a gate and I had to say again my number. The number was noted that
I came, for what purpose and to what, and go with the paper to
the Scribe, the Chief Scribe.
Now, once I have done it, nobody really would control me if
I moved around the camp among the thousand prisoners which moved
around. Fred Wetzler who was in the old camp was suddenly separated
from me, so it was natural that I would go to Fred Wetzler to
visit him and to discuss our mutual business. This was already
illegal, but not that risky because by daytime there are not many
S.S. men here inside, and I was dressed like a scribe and they
are not worried if I am a scribe from this camp or that camp --
he wouldn't know.
Secondly, I could do another thing. Using my trip I would,
instead of going here ....
Q. Into the men's camp.
A. .... into the men's camp, take a bundle of papers and go
between the crematoria into the baths; that baths was used very
frequently by members of the Sonderkommando. The Sonderkommando
had the property of the people who had to undress before they
went to the gas chamber and were stealing quite a bit of it before
they were giving it to the Germans. Consequently, I think the
presence of various people who knew me and marched here as if
nothing happened back to my camp, BIIA, where I had to go through
the S.S. men, the S.S. men would ask me, "Did you bring me
the stockings?"
Q. You can't tell us what they said.
A. Pardon?
Q. You can't tell us what the S.S. men would say.
A. He did say.
THE COURT: Never mind what he said. Just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: The S.S. men ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Do a little more controlling here,
Mr. Griffiths.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: You can't tell us, Dr. Vrba, the words that
were said by the S.S. men. Would you have any conversation, without
telling us what it is, with the S.S. men?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And as a result of that conversation would you
do anything? Did you do anything as a result of your conversation
with him?
A. Yes, I did. As a result of this conversation, produce a
pair of stockings and give it to him. If I did that he didn't
ask me how come --
Q. I'm sorry, I think -- I don't think you can say what he
wouldn't ask you; but you'd give him the stockings.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what effect, if anything, did that have or seemed
to have on your freedom of movement?
A. Well, this enabled me to move along this path with relative
freedom, because otherwise it was checked on the clock when I
left the camp and when I came back to the camp, and it is clear
that I had only half an hour for that.
Q. How would you have access to that area where the wood pile
was? How would you have access to that area where the wood pile
was?
A. Just like I would go here. I could take a risk, pretending
that I am now not a block scribe, but a what they call a foreman,
with a bundle of papers, and go here and move around that prisons
and pretend that I am writing or something. So I gained a certain
freedom of going frequently into this area, frequently into this
area, and frequently loitering around this area.
Q. How was it you were able to escape? You said you went into
that area. What did you do?
A. Here was built up a bunker, as I mentioned, and I knew that
the bunker is built up.
Q. This is the wooden pile you told us about?
A. The wooden pile. That wooden pile was build up by people
unknown to me. This required a considerable amount of organization
to build it up, because hundreds of prisoners had to build it.
Q. You can't tell us what you didn't see.
A. Yes.
Q. Specifically, on April 7th, what did you do, you and Mr
Wetzler?
A. On April 7 Wetzler and I had a meeting on this place. This
means that Wetzler, under a pretext, being a scribe here ---
Q. BIID.
A. BIID -- went out from here and came here.
Q. To the roadway?
A. To the road. Along this road into the Mexico, into this building Part 3.
Q. The building part was called Mexico, into this part of the
camp?
A. This part of the camp later called Mexico, but they called
it in the building Part 3. And together so that we could see one
another we went by different rows to the place where we were hiding,
supposed to hide. On that same place, again from different opinion,
two prisoners who were detached from BIID and were detached to
work in this camp ....
Q. Mexico.
A. In Mexico, in Section 3, absconded from their group, and
we all four met at the enormous wood pile here and nobody could
see us because the wood pile had an irregular form. So there was
sort of corridors made. The two prisoners would then take down
six or seven layers of wood on a certain place. Wetzler and I
would slip into that place. They would cover it up and go away.
And now started a different process.
Now, for that I will need the bigger map. The process was as
follows:
At five o'clock, before it gets dark, all who work in this
area are marched back here.
Q. To the inner camp.
A. To the inner camp. When they are all in, the gates are closed
and the record on the gate is first checked -- if everybody went
back who went out. So already they found a record that I went
out but didn't come back.
Q. If you are inside the woodpile, you can't tell us, obviously,
what was going on outside the woodpile. Did you ever have any experience as to what would
happen if there was a number short?
A. That's right. This is the system explaining. This means
that I knew in advance every step which would take place, because
I knew the system.
Q. Okay.
A. So where this happens, then the S.S. at the gates did not
become too nervous because they sometime were sloppy. So in other
words, the gates are closed, the electric was put in and the roll
call here start.
Q. Now, what happens if the roll call is short some people
and they can't be found in twenty minutes?
A. Meanwhile both queues are standing.
Q. So the outer chain of guards is standing as well?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths, what you are doing here is, the witness
is extrapolating what would usually occur because he knew the
system. That has gone far enough. Ask him what happened next,
to his own personal knowledge, because unless you can prove that
the system worked in precisely the same way in this case, I am
not interested in having anyone, especially the jury, hear what
he expected to happen, because that is something within the confines
of his own mind, emanating from his own extrapolations.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I think I have your point, Your Honour. Thank
you.
THE WITNESS: No. I could check on it.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: No, Dr. Vrba, please. You had some understanding
of what would happen from prior experience. Don't tell us what
you think happened while you were inside the woodpile.
A. Right.
Q. Don't tell us that. How long were you hiding in the woodpile?
A. I went in the woodpile on Friday afternoon on 7 April at
two o'clock.
THE COURT: Would you say that again? I missed that.
THE WITNESS: I went into the woodpile on Friday afternoon at
two o'clock, 2:00 p.m., on 7 April, 1944.
Q. And when did you come out of the woodpile?
A. I came out from the woodpile on Monday, April 10th, 1944,
at nine o'clock p.m., after certain checking of the situation.
Q. All right. When you came out of the woodpile, which direction
did you go?
A. I came out from the woodpile first because I could hear
that the outer guards gave the signal to withdraw in the usual
way. This means I could hear it and I knew that they have to make
seventy-two hours.
Q. You heard them give the signal, "Stand down"?
A. That's right. And at this moment I concluded that there
were no outer guards, that it is nine o'clock in the evening,
that the inner guards are here and that I am basically a free man.
Q. Which way did you go when you left the camp?
A. Well, I tried to first pass a sentry, and then tried to
go behind this little forest behind this crematoria, and then
to cross this railway line, and behind the railway line I knew
from previous experience is a river called Sola, and I knew that
the river Sola, from certain investigations I made before during
my stay at the camp, goes between the camp Auschwitz, which will
be here, and the City of Auschwitz which is approximately here.
Q. I'm sorry, you can't .... "City" is the other
circle you made?
A. This is the City of Auschwitz, and this is the River Sola.
This River Sola, I learned, originates on the Slovak border in
a place called Zwardon. When you look at the map it is a rather
straight river.
Q. All right. Let me stop you for just a minute. When you came
out of the woodpile and you circled around to get to the River
Sola can you tell us what road, if any, you crossed on your way
to the railway line?
A. In the first line I found here, in this distance.
Q. North of the woods.
A. North of the woods, and I approached it this way, in the
night, of course -- it was dark and it was approximately midnight,
something which I couldn't differentiate between if it is a river
or a road. It was glistering. So I went by and put my fingers
in and I saw that it is sand. So that was a sandband approximately eight
meters wide which started from nowhere, and I didn't know how
far it goes, and I suspected that this is a minefield. Consequently,
because I didn't know how far this went, which is not a road but
untouched sand, I decided, instead of going around it, to take
the risk and cross it. So I sensed that I will cross that sand
and that when he crosses it after me, he should go carefully into
the same step which I went.
I crossed and nothing happened. Then he crossed behind me carefully,
using the same steps, and after we have done it, we have seen
that this so-called road or sand or whatever it was ended approximately
after two, three hundred yards. So it was meant to be ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Don't tell us that. Just tell us your observation.
Now, you circled around, you said, behind the woods?
A. I circled around behind the woods and reached the railway
line at five o'clock in the morning.
Q. Other than the sand that you've told us about did you cross
any roads?
A. None whatsoever. It was all moor. It was bog. Because here
the River Sola, and here is the River Bistula [Vistula] which
have got a lot of meanders, which was boggy and marshy.
Q. I will stop you there for just a minute. I understand that
you made your way back to Slovakia.
A. Yes, please. I don't understand your question.
Q. Did you make it back -- did you get back to Slovakia without
getting caught?
A. I was caught by a patrol on the next Saturday near a place
called Poromka (phonetic) which opened fire at me.
THE COURT: Just a moment. I am not -- if this is relevant ....
MR. GRIFFITHS: Well, Your Honour, I am trying to get a little
further down the road.
THE COURT: See if you can do that.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: I know that things happened to you on the
way to Slovakia.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get to Slovakia safely?
A. Yes. Across the Slovak border on Friday the 21st April at
ten o'clock in the morning.
Q. All right. When you got to Slovakia were you able to meet
with anybody and tell them of your experiences?
A. Yes. That was my intention to do so, and to that I directed
my activity from that moment on.
Q. All right. Can you tell us where you met with these people,
what city?
A. I met with those people in the City of Cadca, which was
about thirty miles south of the border. I came to the City of
Cadca and I have, meanwhile, collected the information that in
City of Cadca lives a doctor called Dr. Pollok (phonetic).
Q. Through Dr. Pollok were you able to make contact with other
people and tell your story?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. And the story that you told, what you observed,
did anybody write that down?
A. Immediately.
Q. All right. And did Mr. Wetzler speak to these people as well?
A. We were both together and speaking to these people, which
were representatives of the Jewish Council of Slovakia, and actually,
it was Dr. Neumann, Dr. Oscar Newmann, engineer, Krasnansky ---
Q. And others?
A. And many others -- many lawyers.
Q. After you and Mr. Wetzler spoke to these people was something
put down in writing?
A. That's right. While we were speaking to the people they
had brought a stenographer with them and what I was saying was
taken on a stenogram in absence of Mr. Wetzler. What Mr. Wetzler
was speaking was taken on a stenogram in my absence.
Q. After you and Mr. Wetzler spoke to these people, was anything
written about -- again, by the Jewish people -- about what you
had told them?
A. Yes. The stenograms were transcribed into a typewritten
text collating the statement of both of us.
Q. Was that written by you or by others, the final text?
A. The final text was typed by a typist, and was presented
to me for signature and to Wetzler, to confirm that his typescript
contains our words.
MR. GRIFFITHS: All right. Is this a convenient time, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Yes. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 3:30 p.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The jury returns. 3:55 p.m.
THE COURT: Yes, go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, would you tell us whether or not there was any
distinctive odour at the Birkenau camp?
A. I was for fifteen months. After fifteen months, if you are
in a particular environment which has a particular odour, you
don't feel that odour. I couldn't say that I felt a particular
odour. Don't forget that in front of each block there were ten,
fifteen, twenty dead bodies. Hygienic circumstances were lacking
from what we know as civilized hygienic circumstances, and I,
after a certain time, found the environment as being adapted to
it.
Q. All right. Did you have an opportunity to observe -- can
you tell us if the crematoria had any smoke stacks?
A. Yes, it did. The crematoria worked in a peculiar pattern.
Q. Unless you were inside, you can't tell us what goes on inside
the crematoria.
A. Only what I can see from outside.
Q. Thank you. Go ahead.
A. From outside, when the transport was sort of about twelve
hours after the transport arrived, you could hear a buzzing coming
out from the crematoria, and then smoke and flame came up from
the chimney. The flame looked approximately like when you here
go around Toronto and the burn of oil. I have seen similar chimneys
with fire on top of them.
Q. Like the refinery, is that what you mean?
A. Like refinery. Now, this lasted for some time -- perhaps
an hour, perhaps two -- and attracted attention; and as the flame
became smaller, the smoke became thicker and there was a thick
smoke coming out for some time, perhaps half an hour, perhaps
an hour, and then the smoke stopped being so thick and when you
look carefully at the chimney, then it would look slight smoke
coming out from the chimney, not very different from a smoke which
come out from an average house, as far as I recollect.
Q. Have you ever gone by any different name than Rudolf Vrba?
A. I have been going by several different names.
Q. When you were in Auschwitz did you have the name Rudolf
Vrba, or another name?
A. No. I have been born as Walter Rosenberg, and when the Germans made a quizzling [Quisling] government in Czechoslovakia which obeyed their orders and
prized itself that Slovak racial laws are stricter than in Germany,
the law has been passed that I must have a middle name, the middle
name of Israel; every Jew was called Israel as a middle name.
If it was a Jewess it was Sara. Consequently, I was registered
in concentration camp Auschwitz as Joseph Israel Rosenberg, and
under that name, as far as I know, would have been issued the
warrant against me after I escaped. Consequently I never used
that name again, and when I arrived in Slovakia I started to use
the name Vrba for several reasons.
Q. And have you used that name ever since -- Rudolf Vrba?
A. I use that name illegally to protect myself against search
until September 1944, when I entered the Czechoslovak Army partisan
units; but as all my documents were burned in Maidanek, I couldn't
show any identity except a false document on the name of Rudolf
Vrba, and under that false document I have been enlisted in the
Czechoslovak Army which administration insisted that anybody who
enlists in the army must have a document. "False document",
they said, "We can't see that it is false. It's all right."
So the Gestapo said also it's all right. The document falsification
was perfect.
However, when the War was over and I have been discharged from
the Army into normal civil life, I hesitated to start civil life
with a name which is not legalized. Do you mind if I look into
my things to refresh my consideration?
Q. No. Is there a document you are looking for?
A. Yes. Consequently, when I was released from the Army and
my release papers were issued on Rudolf Vrba, I have insisted
that my original name, Walter Rosenberg, should be included in
my release papers, and these are the release papers from the Army.
Q. I will come there. You stay up there.
A. Which were issued in May 1945.
Q. All right.
A. Together with description of my military activities on behalf
of my native countries.
Q. What language are your release papers in?
A. The release paper is in the Slovak language.
Q. And what name is given on this document?
A. This document says that it is issued to "Rudolf Vrba
(W. Rosenberg)".
Q. Do you have a photocopy of that?
A. I have a photocopy of that which I gave among the papers,
but this is an original.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I hesitate to make the original an exhibit. Perhaps
I can get a photocopy tomorrow, Your Honour.
Q. Dr. Vrba, are you a member of any ---
A. Excuse me, I didn't answer your previous question.
Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
A. Because the name was then legalized as Rudolf Vrba on ground of my request that, when the Germans
came to my native country ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: It was legalized.
A. It was legalized after the War for the reasons I asked for
-- deGermanization of my name.
Q. DeGermaniation of your name.
A. Right. No connection with my so-called German culture which
I saw in Auschwitz.
Q. Exhibit 1, the pamphlet, Did Six Million Really Die?,
page 16, Dr. Vrba, Chapter 6, entitled, "Auschwitz and Polish
Jewry" ....
A. Yes.
Q. I am going to ask you a couple of questions about that.
A. Yes.
Q. First of all, on page 17 there is a paragraph as follows,
and I will read it and then I will ask you to comment on it.
A. Please.
Q. It's the second complete paragraph on the first column of
page 17.
A. Yes.
Q. "Although several millions were supposed to have died
at Auschwitz alone, Reitlinger has to admit that only 363,000
inmates were registered at the camp for the whole of the period
between January 1940 and February 1945 ...." and cited as authority is the book, The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, page 268 and following --
" ....and by no means all of them were Jews. It is frequently
claimed that many prisoners were never registered, but no one
has offered any proof of this. Even if there were as many unregistered
as there were registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000
prisoners -- hardly enough for the elimination of 3 or 4 million.
Moreover, large numbers of the camp population were released
or transported elsewhere during the war, and at the end 80,000
were evacuated westward in January 1945 before the Russian advance."
Now, can you comment as to whether any people were at Auschwitz
who were not registered -- what you saw with your own eyes?
A. All people who on the ramp arrive ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Excuse me, Your Honour. This witness can't answer
for the camp. He can answer for records he kept, and I think that
he is being asked to answer as to whether they were being registered
in the camp, and I never heard him say through his entire testimony
that he kept a register for the camp. He did for his block, and
I heard what he said about it, but I think the question begs to
tell us that he can say something about the camp registry as a
whole.
THE COURT: I don't disagree with Mr. Christie's objection. There
is a point. It is your examination-in-chief, Mr. Griffiths. You can either lay more
groundwork, if you feel that is advisable ....
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
THE COURT: As it stands now, I do not disagree with what I
have heard from Mr. Christie.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Did you ever see the people who you described being brought
to Birkenau in lorries registered?
A. Those who left the ramp in lorries -- and this was seventy-five
to ninety-five percent of arrivals, depend on the transport --
went from the lorries into the area of Krematoria IV and were
not registered.
Q. Thank you.
A. Most of those people consisted of children which were of
ages one to twelve, or of old people which were of ages over sixty,
old women of ages over sixty, and nobody has seen a prisoner of
the age of eleven or of the age of seventy in the concentration
camp Auschwitz.
Q. You can't say "anybody". Did you see prisoners
of those ages?
MR. CHRISTIE: Well, he said "nobody", and my friend
shouldn't cross-examine his own witness. He has elicited some
hearsay and he shouldn't accept anything other than what he got.
THE COURT: I agree. Go ahead, Mr. Griffiths.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: The next section of the pamphlet, it says, Auschwitz: An Eye-Witness Account:
"Some new facts about Auschwitz are at last beginning to make a tentative appearance."
I am just reading from the pamphlet now, page 17, column 2, under the bold title, Auschwitz: An Eye-Witness Account:
"Some new facts about Auschwitz are at last beginning to make a tentative appearance. They are contained in a recent work called Die Auschwitz Lüge: Ein Erlebnisbericht von Thies von Christopherson [Christophersen] ...."
And there is a translation. What does it say?
A. The Auschwitz Legends: An Account of his Experiences, by Thies Christopherson, Kritik Verlag/Mohrkirch, 1973.
Q. And that is the publisher?
A. Yes.
Q.
"Published by the German lawyer Dr. Manfred Roeder in
the periodical Deutsche Bürger-Iniative, it is an eye-witness
account of Auschwitz by Thies Christopherson, who was sent to
the Bunawerk plant laboratories at Auschwitz to research into
the production of synthetic rubber for the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute.
In May 1973, not long after the appearance of this account, the
veteran Jewish 'Nazi-hunter' Simon Wiesenthal wrote to the Frankfurt Chamber of
Lawyers, demanding that the publisher and author of the Forward,
Dr. Roeder, a member of the Chamber, should be brought before
its disciplinary commission. Sure enough, proceedings began in
July, but not without harsh criticism even from the Press, who
asked 'Is Simon Wiesenthal the new "Gauleiter of Germany?"'
And the source of that is -- can you read the German for me?
A. Yes. Deutsche Wochenzeitung, July 27th, 1973. This is German weekly, July 27, 1973.
Q. It goes on, then:
"Christopherson's account is certainly one of the most
important documents for a re-appraisal of Auschwitz. He spent
the whole of 1944 there, during which time he visited all of
the separate camps comprising the large Auschwitz complex, including
Auschwitz-Birkenau where it is alleged that wholesale massacres
of Jews took place. Christopherson, however, is in no doubt that
this is totally untrue. He writes: 'I was in Auschwitz from ....
the mass murders which were supposedly perpetrated by the S.S.
against the Jewish prisoners, and I was perfectly astonished. --- '"
MR. CHRISTIE: You missed a line, I'm sorry.
MR. GRIFFITHS:
"'I was in Auschwitz from January 1944 until December
1944. After the war I heard about the mass murders which were
supposedly perpetrated by the S.S. against the Jewish prisoners,
and I was perfectly astonished. Despite all the evidence of witnesses,
all the newspaper reports and radio broadcasts I still do not
believe today in these horrible deeds. I have said this many
times and in many places, but to no purpose. One is never believed.'"
The article goes on:
"Space forbids a detailed summary here of the author's
experiences at Auschwitz, which include facts about camp routine
and the daily life of prisoners totally at variance with the
allegations of propaganda" --
and he cites pages 22 to 27 of the Christopherson work.
"More important are his revelations about the supposed
existence of an extermination camp. 'During the whole of my time
at Auschwitz, I never observed the slightest evidence of mass
gassings. Moreover, the odour of burning flesh that is often said to have hung over the
camp is a downright falsehood. In the vicinity of the main camp
(Auschwitz I) was a large farrier's works, from which the smell
of molten iron was naturally not pleasant' ...." --
and he cites pages 33 to 34.
"Reitlinger confirms that there were five blast furnaces
and five collieries at Auschwitz, which together with the Bunawerk
factories comprised Auschwitz III" --
ibid page 425 if [of] Reitlinger.
"The author agrees that a crematorium would certainly
have existed at Auschwitz, 'since 200,000 people lived there,
and in every city with 200,000 inhabitants there would be a crematorium.
Naturally people died there -- but not only prisoners. In fact
the wife of Obersturmbannführer A. (Christopherson's superior)
also died there.'"
Page 33 of the Christopherson work was cited.
"The author explains: 'There were no secrets at Auschwitz.
In September 1944 a commission of the International Red Cross
came to the camp for an inspection. They were particularly interested
in the camp at Birkenau, though we also had many inspections at Raisko.'"
And it cites Bunawerk section, page 35.
Now, how does that description of Auschwitz and Birkenau, and
bearing in mind that part of the time that Mr. Christopherson was
writing about is after you left the camp ....
A. Yes.
Q. Well, how does that square with your recollection of the
camp?
A. Well, when did he leave the camp?
Q. He was there, he said, I believe, from -- sorry.
A. He spent the whole of 1944 there.
THE COURT: January to December of 1944.
THE WITNESS: January to December 1944. Well, there are certain
people who claim ---
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Just a minute. My question is, how does this
description square with your recollection of the camp? Is this
accurate in your view?
A. This is a complete lie.
Q. All right. Now, I have one other question that I would like
to refer you to, if I may.
A. The lie has got also something cynical about it. It is a
cynical lie.
Q. On page 24 of the exhibit, and this is under a chapter titled,
"The Nature & Condition of War-Time Concentration Camps",
and there is a sub-heading that says, "Humane Conditions",
the paragraph begins:
"That several thousand camp inmates did die in the chaotic final months of the war brings us to
the question of their wartime conditions. These have been deliberately
falsified in innumerable books of an extremely lurid and unpleasant
kind. The Red Cross report, examined below, demonstrates conclusively
that throughout the war the camps were well administered. The
working inmates received a daily ration even throughout 1943
and 1944 of not less than 2,750 calories, which was more than
double the average civilian ration in occupied Germany in the
years after 1945. The internees were under regular medical care,
and those who became seriously ill were transferred to hospital."
Do those conditions described there correspond to your recollection?
A. These are absolute lies. Moreover, he says about something
about the Red Cross report, which he doesn't show. Where can I see the Red Cross report?
Q. Don't worry about that. My question is just as to the conditions
that are described there.
A. Yes, this is a cynical lie in my opinion.
Q. Are you, Dr. Vrba, part of any hoax or conspiracy or fraud
to deceive people as to the things that you have been telling us about, the conditions in these
camps, the deaths in these camps?
A. If I have any reason to deceive people?
Q. No. My question is whether you are -- are you a part of
any conspiracy to deceive people about what went on in these camps?
A. No, I am not part of any conspiracy, and I am not part of
any political party, and I am not part of any organized religion,
of any church, and my only affiliations, officially, are to universities
in which I worked for the last thirty years, which is University
of Prague, University of London, University of Harvard and University
of British Columbia; and I had, during all those times, no affiliation
to any organization except academical organization.
MR GRIFFITH: Thank you, sir.
I have no further questions, Your Honour.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, the same instructions that
I have given will apply. Have a good evening. Ten o'clock tomorrow
morning.
--- The jury retires. 4:25 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Whereupon the hearing is adjourned to January 23, 1985.
--- Upon the hearing resuming.
THE COURT: Is there anything before the
jury comes in?
MR. CHRISTIE: No, Your Honour.
--- The jury enters. 10:07 a.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
RUDOLF VRBA,
previously sworn
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CHRISTIE
Q. Witness, will you say it's true that
you have told stories about Auschwitz?
A. I didn't keep a secret of it.
Q. Would you say that all the things
you've said about Auschwitz are true?
A. I would think so, within the frame
of possibility of a reference.
Q. I now produce and show to you a book
entitled I Cannot Forgive. Are you the author of this book?
A. I am a co-author.
Q. Did you check it and see that all
the contents were true?
A. Which year has this book been published?
THE COURT: Would you answer the question,
please, sir?
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Could you answer the
question?
A. Which year has the book been published?
THE COURT: Show him the book.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: 1964 March by Grove Press.
It attributes the authorship to you and to a Mr. Alan Bestik
[BESTIC]. Did you read that book?
A. Yes. Certainly. I wrote the book.
Q. All the contents are true?
A. I wouldn't answer in a direct way
to this question, because this is a work of literature, and not
a document, and therefore I would like to make certain remarks
on the background of the book which will make it more clear to
you what the book is about.
Please don't interrupt me, because I
cannot work this way.
Q. Would you let me ask a question?
A. I didn't finish your previous question.
Q. Pardon me.
A. I did not yet finish your previous
question.
Q. Fine. Carry on.
A. The background of that book started
with my discussion with a doctor who was examining judge in the
Frankfurt trial in which the criminals who committed the horrible
crimes in Auschwitz were tried, and I was supposed to help him. He showed me eighty
volumes of material which he collected about the S.S. in Auschwitz
on his shelf, and he told me in a rather exasperating voice, he
said he has collected over years eighty volumes and he still doesn't
know the full truth of Auschwitz.
I agreed with him and I arrived at the
conclusion that if he is right, I would have to write not eighty,
but at least eighty-one volumes in order to give a picture of
the horrible crimes which were committed in Auschwitz, and if
I would write eighty-one volumes, it is very unlikely that a person
who is not specializing in this field but needs the basic knowledge
about his field would be able to read eighty-one volumes. And
I arrived at the conclusion that it is necessary to write one
volume, and I used a special technique which is used also in this
Court, where in this Court is forbidden to photograph. However,
I have seen my picture and the picture of His Honour the Judge
yesterday on the television. Anybody who looks at those pictures
will get some rough idea what was happening in this Court, but
neither I nor His Honour, the Judge, would be in the position
to cut out from that picture his picture, his face, and use it
instead of a passport photograph.
Consequently, what is in the book is
a condensed story written in a style which should enable especially
a young person, untrained and unprepared for the horror of this
century, without too much trouble, to understand to what lowness
some parts of mankind as represented by the Nazis were able to
descend.
Therefore that book should not be considered
as a document, but as an artistic picture of the events which has got not more value
than the artistic picture of the artist who is here now painting
or drawing this courtroom to show to the masses of people who
cannot come here to give them some idea what was happening here.
And this is approximately my answer in print to explain you this
book.
There were, after this book was published,
a number of essays published about the book, and I have a number
of that, perhaps a hundred, two hundred, like Times Literary Supplement,
like the New York Times and the Book of the Month, etcetera, etcetera,
which were published, and the various messages which were contained
were discussed.
However, it is understood that it is
only an attempt for an artistic depiction of those catastrophic
events, and the discussion of the book would therefore belong
into the realm of a literary afternoon, which I am perfectly prepared
to spend with you, Mr. Counsel.
Q. I can see that.
A. But ---
THE COURT: Dr. Vrba, this is not speech-making
time. You have been given a lot of latitude. Is your answer going
to go on for much longer?
THE WITNESS: No. I need two more minutes,
Your Honour.
THE COURT: All right. Then do it and
get on with the next question.
THE WITNESS: I have been called in as
an expert witness not on literature, because I am neither good
as Dostoevsky, or Tolstoy, but I am layman in literature. However, I am acquainted
with events in Auschwitz which took place there from 30 June,
1942, until 7 April 1944, and those events I am prepared to discuss
with you not on the level of a literary essay, but within the
frame of the law.
Should you wish to discuss a book, in
spite of my advice, it would be very difficult to discuss the
book in front of the jury who didn't read the book. Under the
condition that the jury is prepared to read the book, we can then
discuss the book so that the jury knows what we are talking about,
and I am protected from distortions which your friend have published
about this book.
Thank you, Your Honour, for giving me
the opportunity to explain it.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Are there falsehoods
in the book?
A. As I explained to you and gave you
answer to your question, you are only re-formulating the question.
The book is an attempt, artistic attempt to create truths, and
an artistic attempt is subject to shortcomings. And you say that
the shortcoming is a falsehood. I would say that there might be
shortcomings in the book. I would say that certainly there are
shortcomings in the book for which I had limited time to write,
but I wouldn't say that there are falsehood, and I would demonstrate
it to -- prepared to discuss this book in this courtroom.
Q. Did you say things happened in the
book that did not actually happen in fact?
A. I am not aware of that.
Q. Did you say things that you say that
you saw in the book that you did not actually see?
A. The book is not a court case, and
therefore in the book could be incorporated such parts of knowledge
which are obtained from friends to whom I trusted.
As you know, every art piece in literature
is written by people who use not only their own eye witness abilities,
but draw also on experience of others for one reason or another.
Q. Did you put in the book statements
that you said you saw which you did not see?
A. I am not aware of that.
Q. So do I take it from your answer that
when you say you saw something in the book, you actually did see
it?
A. I will discuss with you the book on
the literary afternoon at your disposal. At the moment I am not
prepared to discuss this book unless the book has been read by
the jury.
Q. Well, I think with respect, unless
I am wrong, unless His Honour directs you not to answer the question,
I am entitled to ask you, and I did ask you whether you said things
in the book that you said you saw, things in the book that you
did not see. Now, is that the case or not?
THE COURT: Members of the jury, you will
excuse us please.
--- The jury retires. 10:20 a.m.
THE COURT: Dr. Vrba, I am going to say
this once and only once. You are here as a compellable witness.
You are here to testify as a witness under oath. You are not here
to give orders as to what this jury will do and what you will
do or not do. You will answer counsel's questions unless I tell
you not to. Do you understand?
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
THE COURT: You will do it.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. In
that case, can I ask your permission, if I find the question unsuitable,
if I should, can I take your advice?
THE COURT: If you find them unsuitable,
you can say so. Hopefully you will say that shortly. I don't propose
that Mr. Christie's cross-examination is going to be interrupted
by you taking a multitude of objections to his questions, however
objectionable you may find those questions to be.
In a democratic country you should know
by now, and I am sure that you do, that in a Court of law an accused
person, regardless of who he or she is, is entitled to full answer
and defence. That includes the right of cross-examination. Your
evidence is tested in that way before the triers of fact, which
is the jury.
If you take objection I will listen to
objection; if it contains merit I will say so; if it does not,
I will say so. I do not want Mr. Christie's cross-examination,
however, to be interrupted for no reason at all.
Do you understand?
THE WITNESS: Perfectly well.
THE COURT: Thank you. Bring back the
jury.
THE WITNESS: May I ask a question, Your
Honour, before the jury comes in?
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Quotations from a book tore
out from its general context may create a false impression.
THE COURT: I don't deny that.
THE WITNESS: And may be used for distortions.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Such distortions have been
used from this book and I have turned attention of the Crown that
there are distortions on even the subject of study of some respectable
Professors of History in University.
THE COURT: No one is restricting your
answers to counsel's questions, providing they are relative and
responsive to the question that is put.
THE WITNESS: Wouldn't it be, of course,
to the advantage of the procedure, Your Honour, if the jury, who
finally is supposed to say yes or no to the guilt of the accused,
would be acquainted with the content of the book and not with
particular pieces torn out from them which would suit the defence?
In other words, the danger of distorting
a work by showing only a part of the work is considerable, in
my opinion, especially knowing the tactic of a certain political
group, and therefore I am worried that the jury might be easily,
in the mind of the jury, easily created a wrong impression and might be misled
from the right path of justice if the jury is being served juicy
bits from the whole instead of being acquainted with the book
as a whole. It is just like they would show to the jury a picture,
but only a small part left, a small part right, instead of showing
the whole picture. The book is only 250 pages long, and as far
as I know, it took nobody more than one day to read it.
THE COURT: I repeat only what I said,
that you are not being told what answers you may give to counsel's
questions will be, provided that they are responsive to the questions.
Bring back the jury.
---The jury enters. 10:25 a.m.
THE COURT: Proceed, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
Q. I would just like to ask you if this
part of the book is true. It's attributed, on page two, to your
co-author, Alan Bestic, and it says---
THE COURT: Page ....
MR. CHRISTIE: Sorry. Page 2.
Q. It says:
"I would like to pay tribute to
him ..."
and that was you, sir, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. "....for the immense trouble
he took over every detail; for the meticulous, almost fanatical
respect he revealed for accuracy; and for the courage which this
cold-blooded survey of two ghastly years demanded."
Have I read correctly, sir, from that?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. Would you say that was true for the
degree of respect you had for accuracy?
A. That was true for Alan Bestic who
estimated my accuracy in his own personal way. You may question
now Alan Bestic if my accuracy could stand up to your requirement
or not.
Q. Well, would you say that in your opinion
that was true about your respect for accuracy?
A. Out of modesty, would you kindly allow
me not to make judgments about myself?
Q. Okay. In things that you said in this
book that you said you saw, were you telling the truth?
A. To the best of my knowledge, ability,
the truth as I could perceive it, being in Auschwitz for two years.
Q. So when you said you perceived things,
or saw things in this book, you actually did see them with your
own observations.
A. This is nowhere stated in the book
that I actually saw them. In the book there are a number of things
which I heard from my friend and I have included it in the book,
because a book was not meant to be a testimony to the Court which
I have to sing [sign], but impressions which I collected
from number of friends, some of whom are dead, for whom I wanted
the voice to be heard even after their martyr's death.
Q. I'm sorry, I still don't understand but do you mean to say, for example on
page 10 where you say:
"This time I was glad to see him
arrive", for example, and I will read the rest of it, if
you wish do you mean that you actually did see this?
A. I see arrive what?
Q. Well, here is what you said in the
book.
A. Yes.
Q. "Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz
Camp again in January, 1943. This time I was glad to see him arrive".
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I can read the whole thing, or
two pages, or ten pages.
A. Yes, continue, because I don't know
what it should mean.
Q. You don't know. You don't know.
A. No.
Q. I will ask you, do you mean to say,
when you saw him arrive in January '43, or is this just ---
A. In September '43 or in January '43?
Q. Well, the book says January '43.
A. No. I saw him arrive in July 1943
[1942], and then at one occasion in 1943 ---
Q. It says here, "January '43".
A. It must be an error.
Q. It's an error?
A. Yes.
Q. Oh. But you did see him arrive on this occasion?
A. On the first occasion I saw him arrive,
because he was approximately in the vicinity as you are to me.
Q. He was as close to you as I am.
A. Approximately.
Q. I see. And you were ---
A. He took one step further out of politeness
to me.
Q. I see.
A. However, on the second occasion, I
saw him going by in a car which was the same car I saw before.
He used a black Mercedes with all the sycophants around that he
carried around, but I saw him only for a distance of about six
hundred yards, and I have heard it is him; but he didn't, on this
occasion, come to shake hands with me and introduce himself. So
it might be him; it might be someone who stood in instead of him,
and don't think that it makes a great difference.
Q. Was this the occasion when he was
as far from you as I am?
A. No. That's the second occasion. The
second occasion when he was as far from me as you are, almost
as far, this was in July 1942.
Q. '42.
A. Yes.
Q. And that was in Auschwitz camp?
A. That was in Auschwitz camp I.
Q. In your book you say:
"Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz
camp again in January 1943. This time I was glad to see him arrive." Right?
A. Probably I wasn't glad of him seeing
him arrive as my best friend. Read on in the book. I cannot remember
now why I should be glad to see him here. Maybe I said it tongue-in-cheek,
where I have a right to say it in the book; not in the Court,
but in the book I can.
Q. Would you tell the public something
in the book that wasn't true?
A. I would say in the public in a way
when the truth is complicated, I would use the technique of the
painter, which is here working, that the general impression should
come as close as possible to the truth within the requirements
of my abilities which are, of course, limited.
Q. As Dostoevsky or Shakespeare, yes,
I understand. You don't ---
A. I said I don't have.
Q. All right. I will ask you some more
questions. I will read you pages ten, 11 and 12 and I will ask
you some questions about that.
A. And you are not going to miss some
paragraphs?
Q. Well, you watch me and see that I
don't.
A. Can we have a copy of the book?
Q. I am producing for you, provided by
the Crown, a hardcover copy. I hope it is the same as mine.
A. I hope so, too.
Q. Well, I have another copy. Do you recognize that as the paperback version
of your book; do you?
A. Yes. It was published without my permission
and without my perusal.
Q. So it's without your permission and
your perusal?
A. That's right. You see, I would have
to sue the people who done it, and I couldn't afford to sue; but
for this book I peruse. This is the first edition.
Q. So you figure this one could be false,
then somebody might have twisted your words around?
A. I didn't have any influence on it,
and I didn't see the proof of the book, and I didn't see the account
for it, either, for your private information.
Q. You've never read it?
A. I would say no.
Q. You would say no.
A. No. But I read the original.
Q. What do you mean? You haven't read ---
A. This is the first edition. You see, I have never signed any contract with the publisher of this paperback.
Q. This Grove Press edition published March 1964, copyright by Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic, this is not yours?
A. This is not Grove edition.
Q. This is published by Bantam Books.
A. That's right.
Q. So you say this is a pirated edition, do you?
A. I didn't use those words. They are your words.
Q. Let's find the part in your edition,
then, so in case it is different we can see how it's different.
I am going to have to give this book to someone to look at while
I cross-examine.
A. Good advice.
Q. Well, I will ask you specifically
questions of fact which you can tell me if these statements are
true or not.
Do you believe that Heinrich Himmler
visited the camp in January '42 ['43]? Okay, now I think
I found the spot where I wanted to begin. I am going to read and
you read along with me. Make sure I don't make any mistakes. I
am going to read two, almost three pages okay? and I am going
to ask you some questions about it.
A. Yes.
Q. "Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz
Camp again in January 1943". Is that the same in your book?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. If there is a difference I will turn
your attention to it.
Q. All right. Thank you very much.
"This time I was glad to see him
arrive, though not because I still nursed any faint hope that
he would improve our lot through benevolence or any sense of justice.
His presence was welcome to us all merely because it meant that for one
day there would be no unscheduled beatings or killings.
"Once more we were lined up, spic
and span, with the sick in ---"
A. Excuse me, please. Would you read
it in a way that everybody can understand the sense of the sentence?
Q. I'll try, sir. Okay. If anybody doesn't
understand the sense of the sentences in the jury, please hold
up your hand and I will stop. Okay? And if you find that I am
not reading sensibly, you will tell me too, won't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. Okay.
"Once more we were lined up, spic
and span, with the sick in the rear and the healthy well to the
front. Once more the band played and the heels clicked and the
jack boots danced in the luster shed by the master. Once more
he inspected the camp inch by inch running a podgy pedantic finger
over the mantlepiece of Auschwitz and examining it for dust. And
this time there was no Yankel Meisel to drop his tiny personal
grain of sand into the smooth machinery.
"Though he conducted his tour of
the camp with his usual thoroughness, it was, however, no more
than an aperitif for the meal that was to follow. The main purpose
of his visit was to see for himself the bricks and mortar which
had sprung from the plans he had outlined in Auschwitz seven months
earlier.
"He was to watch the world's first
conveyor belt killing, the inauguration of Kommandant Hoess' brand new toy, his crematorium.
It was truly a splendid affair, one hundred yards long and fifty
yards wide, containing fifteen ovens which could burn three bodies
each simultaneously in twenty minutes, a monument in concrete,
indeed, to its builder Herr Walter Dejaco."
Am I reading correctly?
A. Quite right.
Q. "Auschwitz survivors who, like
myself, were the slave labourers who built it ---"
A. "Who worked to build it".
Q. Yes. ".... who worked to build
it , ...." Sorry, I made a mistake. ".... may be interested
to learn, incidentally, that Herr Dejaco still practises his craft
in Reutte, a town in the Austrian Tyrol. In 1963 he won praise
from Bishop Rusk of Innsbruck for the fine new presbytery he had
built for Reutte's parish priest.
"In 1943, however, there was a war
on and he was concerned with more practical demonstrations of
his skill. The extermination industry was still in its infancy,
but thanks to his efficiency, it was about to make its first really
dramatic stride towards greatness that morning when Himmler came
to visit us.
"He certainly saw an impressive
demonstration, marred only by a timetable that would have caused
concern in many a small German railway station. Kommandant Hoess,
anxious to display his new toy at its most efficient, had arranged
for a special transport of 3,000 Polish Jews to be present for
slaughter in a modern, German way.
"Himmler arrived at eight o'clock
that morning and the show was to start an
hour later. By eight forty-five, the new gas chambers with their
clever dummy showers and their notice 'Keep Clean', 'Keep Quiet'
and so on, were packed to capacity. The S.S. Guards, indeed, had
made sure that not an inch of space would be wasted by firing
a few shots at the entrance. These encouraged those already inside
to press away from the doors and more victims were ushered in.
Then babies and very small children were tossed on to the heads
of the adults and the doors were closed and sealed.
"An S.S. man, wearing a heavy service
gas mask, stood on the roof of the chamber, waiting to drop the
Zyklon-B pellets which released a hydrogen cyanide gas. His was
a position of honour that day, for seldom would he have had such
a distinguished audience and he probably felt as tense as the
starter of the Derby.
"By eight fifty-five, the tension
was almost unbearable. The man in the mask was fidgeting with
his boxes of pellets. He had a fine full house beneath him. But
there was no sign of the Reichsfuhrer who had gone off to have
breakfast with Kommandant Hoess.
"Somewhere a phone rang. Every head
turned towards it. A junior N.C.O. clattered over to the officer
in charge of the operation, saluted hastily and panted out a message.
The officer's face stiffened, but he said not a word.
"The message was: 'The Reichsfuhrer
hasn't finished his breakfast yet.'
"Everyone
relaxed slightly. Then another phone call. Another dash by a perspiring
N.C.O. Another message. The officer in charge swore to himself
and muttered to those of equal rank around
him.
"The Reichsfuhrer, it seemed, was
still at breakfast. The S.S. man on the roof of the gas chamber
squatted on his haunches. Inside the chamber itself frantic men
and women, who knew by that time what a shower in Auschwitz meant,
began shouting, screaming and pounding weakly on the door; but
nobody outside heard them because the new chamber was sound-proof
as well as gas-proof.
"Even if they had been heard, nobody
would have taken any notice of them, for the S.S. had their own
worries. The morning dragged on and the messengers came and went.
By ten o'clock the marathon breakfast was still under way. By
half past ten the S.S. men had become almost immune to false alarms
and the man on the roof remained on his haunches even when the
distant telephone rang.
"But by eleven o'clock, just two
hours later, a car drew up. Himmler and Hoess got out and chatted
for a while to the senior officers present. Himmler listened intently,
as they explained the procedure to him in detail. He ambled over
to the sealed door, glanced casually through the small, thick
observation window at the squirming bodies inside, then returned
to fire some more questions at his underlings.
"At last, however, everything was
ready for action. A sharp command was given to the S.S. man on
the roof. He opened a circular lid and dropped the pellets quickly
on to the heads below him. He knew, everyone knew, that the heat
of those packed bodies would cause these pellets to release their
gasses in a few minutes, and so he closed the lid quickly.
"The gassing had begun. Everything
waited for a while so that the poison would have circulated properly,
Hoess courteously invited his guest to have another peep through
the observation window. For some minutes Himmler peered into the
death chamber, obviously impressed, and then turned with new interest
to his Kommandant with a fresh batch of questions.
"What he had seen seemed to have
satisfied him and put him in good humour. Though he rarely smoked,
he accepted a cigarette from an officer, and as he puffed at it
rather clumsily, he laughed and joked.
"The introduction of this more homely
atmosphere, of course, did not mean any neglect of the essential
business. Several times he left the group of officers to watch
progress through the peep hole; and, when everyone inside was
dead, he took a keen interest in the procedure that followed.
"Special lifts took the bodies to
the crematorium, but the burning did not follow immediately. Gold
teeth had to be removed. Hair, which was used to make the warheads
of torpodeos [torpedoes] watertight, had to be cut from
the heads of the women. The bodies of wealthy Jews, noted early
for their potential had to be set aside for dissection in case
any of them had been cunning enough to conceal jewellery diamonds
perhaps about their person."
I will stop there.
A. Well, it is only very little ---
Q. --- to the end? I will read to the
end.
A. I will appreciate it.
Q. Sure. Certainly:
"It was indeed, a complicated business,
but the new machinery worked smoothly under the hands of skilled
operators. Himmler waited until the smoke began to thicken over
the chimneys and then he glanced at his watch.
"It was one o'clock. Lunch time,
in fact. He shook hands with the senior officers, returned the
salutes of the lower ranks casually and cheerfully and climbed
back into the car with Hoess.
"Auschwitz was in business. And
on a scale that would have made little old Yankel Meisel shake
his head in wonder and disbelief. He had never been a very ambitious
man and the thought of streamlined mass-destruction would have
been quite beyond his simple mind.
"But then he had never heard of
the Final Solution, let alone of the part which Auschwitz was
to play in it."
Now, have I read correctly from the point
where I ended?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. All right. And that is a statement.
Do you say that that was the true statement?
A. I would say that it was as true as
true is the picture which is depicted by the artist in this room.
Q. Okay.
A. This means ---
Q. Never mind what it means.
A. You asked me one question, if you will allow me to finish my answer.
Q. Yes, sir.
A. This means it conveyed truthfully
the atmosphere existing in Auschwitz during the gassing procedure
in the presence of a very highly positioned VIP.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. What was missing for the explanation
and which distorts the sense of your carefully selected passage
is that in your passage, twice the name of Yankel Meisel has been
mentioned, and because the listeners do not know who that Yankel
Meisel actually is, but that Yankel Meisel is named in the same
chapter, some confusion might arise from your whole reading, or
so it conveyed reasonably well as far as possible for a second-grade
artist to describe the atmosphere which existed during the gassing
of those unfortunate victims.
Q. Right. Okay. Now, you used an anology
by saying that the artist in Court, drawing his picture, was in
the same way you were writing this article.
A. About. Otherwise ---
Q. Yeah. Okay.
A. Otherwise I would have to be in the
position of the Judges in Frankfurt who had to write eighty books
in order not to be in the position of the artist; but to be in
the legal position where he can stand up behind every word of
the eighty books.
Q. Let's not worry about some judge in
Frankfurt. You used the analogy of the artist in Court, and I
put it to you that the artist has seen a real man in a real stand namely, you. Right?
A. Right.
Q. And you are telling this Court you
actually saw Heinrich Himmler peeping through the doors of the
gas chamber; you told us that?
A. No, I didn't say I was present when
he was peeping through the gas chamber, but I have put together
a story which I've heard many times from various people who were
there present and who related it to me. What I could see was the
following, that a transport of eight thousand Jews from Krakow
on that occasion ---
Q. Eight thousand, eh? You counted them?
A. By knowledge of the trucks, as I explained
to you yesterday, and by knowledge of the number of wagons which
arrived to Auschwitz, we knew reasonably well how many of the
victims arrived on that day.
Q. Where does it say that there were
eight thousand Jews arrived that day in your book?
A. Well, if it doesn't say, I remember
it.
Q. Ah.
A. But I do not say that I have written
in the book all I remember, because if I would have write in the
book all I remember, I would have had to write all those eighty-one
books.
Q. Well, what I am asking is about this
specific incident that you described in your book.
A. Yes.
Q. You describe it as saying, "This time I was glad to see him arrive",
and then you go on and tell us what you say happened.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, I put it to you, you were what
eighteen or nineteen years old?
A. At that time it was in '43. I was
nineteen years old.
Q. Well, do you tell us that you are
standing between Heinrich Himmler and Hoess and hearing their
conversation and looking with them or somewhere in the area where
they were looking onto a gas chamber? Is that what you are telling
me?
A. No. I am telling you that they were
looking into the gas chamber, that there were a number of Sonderkommando
present, that there were a number of S.S. present.
Q. Were you present?
A. No. I was in the quarantine camp at
that time and I spoke with a number of them and listened to them,
and I knew that those unfortunate victims were being gassed with
a great delay because the VIPs didn't come, so they were being
kept in the gas chamber.
Q. Well, in your book you indicate that
you saw, and you don't indicate that you heard from other people
the story that you related.
A. In this particular case the story
is related.
Q. And you say that these things happened
as you described, even though you acknowledged they were on the
basis of hearsay; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. The quarantine camp you described
now, if I may, looking at Exhibit "H" for identification,
would you agree that's a map of the camp?
A. What about we project the map so the
jury can see?
Q. Well, I can hold it.
A. Well, I have the same map and we can
just project it.
Q. Well, all right. If you have the same
map, let me do it my way just for once. Okay?
A. You be my guest. But just make it
in such a way that the jury sees what you are trying here to do.
This may be an exhibit.
Q. Well, let's just be -- as long as
we can be satisfied that we are not misrepresenting the camp,
can we do that?
A. I would prefer if the jury is trying
to see exactly what you are trying to say.
THE COURT: Doctor, you will find that
when the cross-examination is concluded, counsel for the Crown,
if he chooses to do so, will re-examine you. You will please answer
the questions as Mr. Christie puts them to you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you for being enlightened
on that point. Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: I have showed you Exhibit
"H" for identification. I ask you if that isn't the
case that it is the same map that you presented earlier.
A. Yes. It suffices for its purposes.
Q. It's bigger.
A. Yes.
Q. The quarantine camp was BIIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are talking about an area
of KII, Krema II. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. This is where you say this happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go in the area of KII?
A. In the area of KII, I could watch
from Block 27.
Q. Yes.
A. But if you take notice, Mr. Counsel,
the date was January 1943; but yesterday, if you would have listened
what was going on in this court, you would have taken notice,
in your notes, that I was in quarantine camp only after June 8th,
1943; therefore I could not observe it from the quarantine camp
but from the mortuary of Fred Wetzler from where I later escaped,
and this was distance of fifty yards from the crematorium January
'43.
Q. Well, didn't you just tell me a few
minutes ago that when this event with Himmler happened you were
in the quarantine camp? I though I heard you say that.
A. Well, once I realize that it was in
January, I realize that I have seen it from here.
Q. Oh. So when you found out the date
in the book you decided that you saw it from Block 27.
A. That's right. But I don't say in the book from where I see it, did I?
You tried to impute to me that I have seen it somewhere. You impute
it to me that I have seen it from the quarantine camp. I did write
about it in the book.
Q. No, but you said, "I saw",
in the book, and I got the impression that you are describing
firsthand observation.
A. What I saw from the book, if you allow
me to explain to you if it is of interest to you you can stop
me if it is of no interest ---
Q. I wouldn't ask you if it wasn't of
interest.
A. If it was of interest for you, is
that I saw part of the procedure, obviously from the mortuary,
which is April '43.
Q. Maybe we can show it to the jury.
Block 27 is there?
A. Yes.
Q. And the quarantine camp is there?
A. Yes. And it was empty in January 1943.
There was nobody.
Q. Thank you very much.
A. So I could see it only from Wetzler's
mortuary, and I didn't write in the book from where I saw it.
Q. No, you didn't; that's right.
A. But you tried to impute that I saw
it from ---
THE COURT: All right. Next question,
please.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, I just want to ask you a couple more questions about
this aspect of the story. Are you saying that you saw Heinrich
Himmler peer through a window and hear him have a conversation,
or is that just what you heard from other people?
A. That I heard from other people.
Q. And you agree with me that in the
part that I read to you, it certainly doesn't indicate that this
is information received. It puts it in the first person as it
you are standing right there, doesn't it?
A. No. Where is it written that it is
in the first person?
Q. When you say, when I read to you,
"This time I was glad to see him arrive, though not because
I still nursed any faint hope ...."; and then you go on to
describe the situation without reference to any information received.
A. Well, the word, "I was glad to
see him" refers to my naiveté of that time when I
still thought that the horrible murders in Auschwitz are being
done behind the knowledge of the leading Nazis.
Q. Thank you.
A. And therefore I thought that if he
will see those murders, and that's why I was indicating "glad",
that if he will see those murders, then he will see here something
illegally is happening behind the back of the highest officials
of the German Government. That is why I was glad to see him. That
is what it refers to. And I was disappointed when I have heard
that on the same day as gassing under exceptionally brutal conditions
took place, and that he expressed, as I could hear by the grapevine
in the camp, his full satisfaction of it, and that the gassing went on with even greater
intensity after he left. And that is what his message tried to
convey.
Q. So you had hoped at this stage that
he was going to stop it; was that your hope?
A. Because the crimes which we were seeing
was so outside any human imagination, we still have hoped, or
had hoped quite naively, quite inexperiencedly, I admit, but we
had hoped that Auschwitz was run by beings like Hoess, underworld
types in military uniform who are murdering en masse behind the
back of the high German, highly positioned German Government.
Therefore the visit of someone so close
to the German Government enveigled in us false hopes. You know,
when people are in horrible situations, they are apt to have false
hopes, false hopes that when those highly-positioned people come
and see the horrors of Auschwitz, they will see that it is incompatible
with the cultural history of a civilization like Germany and will
stop it. That is why I said I was glad that he came.
Q. Well, immediately after you say, "This
time I was glad to see him arrive", you say, "though
not because I still nursed any faint hope that he would improve
our lot through benevolence or any sense of justice."
Are those your words?
A. This refers, of course, to beating.
Q. I see. Not to the gassing.
A. Not to the gassing.
Q. Okay. So all the account there is
hearsay, but it isn't put as such; right?
A. Well, it is referred to the beating, because the beating, I didn't hope any
improvement because it was known to us that beating and torturing
of individual prisoners in Sachsenhausen, in Mauthausen, in Dachau,
in Buchenwald, Ravensbruck, in Flossen, was a very well-known
and accepted method by which the leadership of the Nazis knew.
In Auschwitz took something different, mass gassings, and therefore
we expected or thought that mass murder, especially against children
and old women and pregnant women on such a scale, might possibly
be done by depraved fanatics behind the back of the German government.
Q. Had you, at that time, knowledge of
all these things about those other concentration camps?
A. Very good knowledge.
Q. So there must have been knowledge
coming in and out of all the various concentration camps.
A. Yes. Before I came to the concentration
camps of Auschwitz there were a number of books published by German
refugees who have seen various concentration camps like Dachau.
For example, Bruno Bethlehem [Bettelheim]
from Chicago, who was in Dachau in '33, '34, and then was
released and came to America and wrote a book about it, such books
were in general knowledge in Czechoslovakia even before the Germans,
the Nazis, occupied our native country.
Consequently, we were pretty well informed
that beating and torture of prisoners in German concentration
camps takes place on a great scale. Braun Buch, which translated
means Brown Book, and it doesn't relate to Lichtenstein, it relates
to a number of survivors of German concentration camps
who published a great amount of material in 1933, 1939, and I
was reading that materials, and therefore knew that this is common
in German concentration camps. But there was nothing yet about
gas chambers.
Furthermore, in Auschwitz there were
a number of prisoners from those concentration camps who were
transferred to concentration camp Auschwitz.
I, myself, was not in Auschwitz -- this
was not my first concentration camp. I came from Maidenek. Consequently,
we were informed, in Auschwitz, about events in other concentration
camps. We knew that in other concentration camps torture of prisoners
takes place and irregular beatings, but we knew, as far as we
could see, that mass gassings of completely innocent and unregistered
people takes place only in Auschwitz.
Q. I see. Is that all you want to say
on that?
A. If that is satisfactory for you for
a literary discussion about my modest product, yes, unless you
have more questions.
Q. Oh, I do. Are you familiar with the
Calendarium of Auschwitz?
A. I know that such a Calendarium exists,
but I have never seen one.
Q. Records the events of the camp.
A. Yes, it was used. I have seen it in
court in Frankfurt where the Chief Judge, presiding judge, Dr
Hofbauer, showed it and ---
THE COURT: Just a moment, Doctor. Go
on to the next question.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. Is this a record of your escape on
the 7th of April, 1944?
A. Austenlager [Auss--] ---
THE COURT: Doctor, this is a trial in
the English language. Would you please look at it and then answer
counsel's questions?
THE WITNESS: Right. Would you formulate
your question kindly once more?
MR. CHRISTIE: Is that your account of
the escape or the escape from Auschwitz that you claim you undertook?
A. Here is one paragraph called Paragraph
7.4, in which it is in two and a half ---
Q. Just listen to the question. Okay?
Is that the account or a record of an escape on the 7th of April
involving Alfred Wetzler and Walter Rosenberg?
A. Here is nothing about April 7.
Q. Well, four seven is the seventh day
of the fourth month, isn't it?
A. No. 4407 is the number which is tattooed.
Q. No. 7.4.
A. Oh, this is a date.
Q. Seventh day, fourth month?
A. There is no year written.
Q. Go back further and you will see that
it is 1944. Look at the book. Here we go. Can you see yourself
that that pertains to 1944?
A. Published in 1964 by the Museum in
Poland.
Q. Yes. The Auschwitz Museum, right?
A. Right.
Q. Now, did you want to see yourself
that that is for the year 1944?
A. I believe you.
Q. You believe me? All right.
A. With this document in your hands I
believe you.
Q. All right. Let's turn back to where
we had your date on the 7th of April.
A. Yes.
Q. Does this not report the escape of
an Alfred Wetzler and Walter Rosenberg?
A. That is perfectly right.
Q. That is what it says occurred on that
date?
A. Yes. And it also records our numbers
tattooed on our hand.
Q. On your hand, eh?
A. Yeah.
Q. Which hand?
A. On the left hand.
Q. So that's when you say that your escape
occurred; is that right?
A. On 7 April, 1944. Start of the escape.
Q. Did you say also that when you left,
Kanada had not been established in Birkenau?
A. To the best of my knowledge, no, but
Kanada was stationed in Birkenau for the night. In other words,
they lived in the barracks in the night in Birkenau since 15 January, 1943.
Q. I am now going to show you the Calendarium
for 1943. Are you satisfied that's the Calendarium for 1943?
A. Yes.
Q. The first half of the year.
A. Yes.
Q. I am going to read it to you in English
and I am going to put it to you that that is what that says in
English, and I am going to ask you if I have provided you with
the correct translation.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. It says: 14th day, 12th month, 1943,
in Birkenau, the finished the section "BII", the construction
of the storage buildings which was called by the inmates Kanada.
In the storage buildings there have been thirty-five barracks.
In thirty of them the belonging[s] of Jews were stored
and selected. In two barracks inmates did live which did care
for the store. In the rest of the buildings the administration
was located.
Have I read that translation correctly?
A. I understand correctly now the German
text. Would you now read me the translation?
Q. All right: in Birkenau they finished
building the section "BII", the construction of the
storage section which was called by the inmates Kanada. In the
storage buildings there have been thirty-five barracks. In thirty
of them the belongings of Jews was stored and selected.
In two barracks inmates did live which did care for the store.
In the rest of the buildings the administration was located.
Have I read it correctly, sir?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. That indicates that on
the 14th of December, 1943, the area called Kanada was finished,
and you said that it wasn't finished before you left.
A. To my recollection it wasn't finished
before I left. So, also to my recollection, Kanada command which
I saw frequently on the street in section "BIID", they
were there as usually, but I was away from that command for a
long time, and that command was from that time on of smaller interest
to me.
Now, if this particular thing refers
to finishment of plans or to finishment of barracks or to actual
transport of the prisoners into those barracks, this is a question.
I am not quite sure, with all respect
to Polish researchers, if their records are better than my memory.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Would you say, sir, that
you told us yesterday about burning pits?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say that yesterday you told
us there were pits that were six meters wide, six meters long
and six meters deep?
A. I also made the remark that I didn't
make a measurement with a tape, but it was my judgment of that measures.
Q. You gave us an example by referring
to the panels on the wall, and you pointed up to, I think, the
top of the first panel; didn't you?
A. Yes, that would be it.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Well, how do you explain
the method by which the Germans could burn bodies under water
in this marshy ground where the water level was about -- well,
you described it as marshy ground. Tell us how they did that.
A. Well, they didn't invite me for technical
consultations. And if you accept that I'm not speaking only as
a witness, I saw only when it was finished; but if you want my
technical advice, I would think, without having seen how they
have done it and without me having consulted how they have done
it, that I could have do it myself given three, four hundred slave
labourers. There's no problem.
Q. Well, tell me how -- you agree you
described the ground all around there as marshy ground, or do
you say otherwise?
A. The ground all around was marshy.
This means as a countryside.
Q. Because it was between two rivers.
A. It was between two rivers, but as
you probably have been in your life in a marshy countryside there
are occasional visitors around and fisherman. So in marshy land
I would say that there are some quite dried out, well-prepared
pieces of land by the administration of the Auschwitz-Birkenau
camp which were not marshy or which were not to be considered too marshy,
especially when I was in winter 1942 it was heavy frost, and you
know, it was sort of solid earth.
Q. Mm-hmmm. It was frozen earth?
A. Frozen earth.
Q. Well, how does the fire keep the water
from melting?
A. How does fire ....
Q. How is the fire arranged so that the
water in this marshy ground did not melt and fill up the pit that
was as high as that top panel on the wall over there? That's a
long way down, isn't it?
A. Yes. Well, you are asking me again
something which I do not know, neither from eye witness account,
nor have I consulted on technical problem, and I suppose that
anybody with a slight technical education will explain to you
that if you are in a marshy land and dry out that marsh on, say,
one kilometer square, then you get completely different conditions
within that kilometer square than in the rest of the marsh. I
would think so.
Q. You would think so.
A. But you are asking me not eye witness
account.
Q. What do you mean?
A. You are asking me I should speculate
here how Germans have done something, whereas I am only telling
you what I have actually seen.
Q. Yes. You have actually seen a pit
as deep as the top panel of that wall in the courtroom in which
there was a fire in the bottom.
A. No. The fire was extinguished. I said,
if you listen carefully, that the pit was not in use when I have
seen it, but it was in use a short time before, because heat was
still coming out of the pit.
Q. Yeah.
A. And by looking into the pit I saw
residues of children's bones.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Residues of children's bones.
A. Yes. Head bones.
Q. Head bones. Now, is it the case, then,
that you say that the remnant of the fire from which you warmed
yourself was down in the bottom of the pit?
A. Well, if you keep in that pit a considerable
fire for two or three days and then go away, it leaves a fire,
so to say, extinguished, and come after two days -- this was a
big fire, four or five hundred bodies were burned there, say.
Q. All right, we will say that.
A. And say after two days it is very
cold and you put on gloves and you put your hand over that ....
Q. The fire?
A. Not the fire, over that hole ....
Q. Embers.
A. Yeah. You will feel that warmth comes
up.
Q. I'm sure you would.
A. And that is what I felt.
Q. You felt that.
A. That's why I was standing there, you see. The view of the children's heads
was not sort of too enlightening or pleasing my heart.
Q. So you described it as a pit that
was that deep. I suppose you mean to the part where there was
solid or some evidence of the children's heads, they were down
---
A. --- at the bottom of the pit.
Q. Six meters.
A. Yes. At the bottom of the pit.
Q. Six meters down?
A. Yes. But it was only four meters and
not six meters, because I didn't have a tape, and my measures
would be very sort of lost, and perhaps in view of the awesome
situation it might have appeared to me bigger than it was, you
see, within a meter or two.
Q. Within ---
A. I know you will blame me that I didn't
use a yardstick, but it wasn't technically possible.
Q. No, I don't blame you at all. I am
just asking you questions, and perhaps if you will answer them,
that will be a good idea.
A. I will be pleased.
Q. So if I understand you correctly,
the six by six by six meters you say might be cut by one or two
meters?
A. Might be out by one or two meters.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You don't understand or know
any reason why there would be no water in the bottom of this pit;
you have no explanation for that at all.
A. Of course I have an explanation. If
the pit was heated up, and if there was a lot of bodies burning, everything -- and if it was
not used once but many times, then the water from around would
have long time dried out.
Q. I see. Is it true that what you said
earlier was the case that it was marshy ground?
A. The marshy ground was general around
Auschwitz. In other words ---
Q. Not around Birkenau?
A. Around Birkenau. In other words, how
marshy Birkenau was, I, the first time realized only after I left
Birkenau and had to cross the common camp area.
In other words, Birkenau was build up
in a marsh area, but Birkenau itself was not marshy any more.
Q. Oh, you say that it was built up above
the level of the land.
A. I do not say that it was built above
the level of the land, but proper and simple ameliorative measures
were taken so that Birkenau and the Birkenau installations will
not be succumbed by the swamps. The swamps were there, otherwise
you will have to ask for the technical administration of Auschwitz
camp house. I am not a builder, but I knew how to build things.
Q. What ameliorative measures do you
say were taken?
A. Yes, ameliorative measures, which
translated means measures to regulate unexpected flood of water.
It is used quite frequently by great agricultural enterprises
when they want a piece of their agricultural dry, and a piece wet. This
is achieved by amelioration.
Q. What ameliorative measures do you
say were taken to prevent water from being a problem in Auschwitz?
Do you say that they raised the level of the land?
A. The camp administrations did not inform
me about those technical details. I have no knowledge.
Q. Now, you gave a description of a gas
chamber. I think, if I interpreted you correctly, that you saw
from Block 27 ---
A. Right.
Q. --- Alfred Wetzler's mortuary ---
A. Right.
Q. --- the wooden building that isn't
on the plan ....
A. That's right.
Q. Did he build it himself?
A. No. It was built.
Q. Could you, taking this map, Exhibit
"H", be so kind as to make marks, and I'd like to give
you a coloured pen to do it with.
A. Yes. And you want me to make certain
marks?
THE COURT: No. Just a moment, please.
Here is a red one.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you very much, Your
Honour.
Q. Could you just show us, by circling
on this Exhibit "H" -- do you want to move that? Now, could you circle the block where the
mortuary was?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
A. The mortuary -- this was Block No.
27.
Q. Right. It's marked right on it. Just
mark a circle around it if you would.
A. And the mortuary was there, wooden
annex. So that the one wall of 27 was one wall of mortuary which
was wood. In other words, it was a duplex.
Q. Do you mind if I draw an arrow and
you can label it? Just label that and label it -- may I do it?
If I can write it, it may be a little bit clearer.
A. It's your property. You can write
what you want.
Q. And that's where Alfred Wetzler ....
A. Has his office and his mortuary until
8 June 1943.
Q. And that is where you made your observations,
right?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. Can you just put your initials
right there so that I am confirming that that's what you've told
me and I have written it down according to your instructions?
A. Yes. But the direction in which I
looked was completely different from where you have ---
Q. I put the arrow there just because
of the paper, not for direction.
A. And because you are a stickler for accuracy, it is Vetzler (phonetic) not
Wetzler (phonetic), and you might blame me that I gave you a false
name.
Q. No, I wouldn't do that. Now, you might
tell us, then, where you saw this man dump, when you said, the
Zyklon-B through the hatches.
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You said you saw an S.S. man dumping
Zyklon-B through the hatches. Now, if you could make a specific
mark where you saw that, maybe a zero or a circle or some mark.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. What would you use?
A. I think I would use either here or
here.
Q. So there's two possible places?
A. Yes, because my memory is not bad.
It is not perfect ....
Q. So you put it in two places and you
put three dots in each place.
A. That's right.
Q. Could you take and draw an arrow up
to here and then identify in the piece of paper what it is you
saw there? This is where you saw, what, the S.S. man dump the
Zyklon, right?
A. S.S. man dumps Zyklon.
Q. All right.
A. Into vents of bunker protruding from
Krematorium I, Krematorium II in a way that was clearly in line
of sight when I was looking from the window.
Q. Well, we don't want to write the whole
story there. You'd better stop.
A. You want to be exact. When I was looking from the window of the mortuary
next to Block 27 Birkenau IB.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Good.
A. Should I initial this, too.
Q. You might as well.
A. Yes. You got an autograph.
THE COURT: That exhibit will now be Exhibit
21.
--- EXHIBIT NO.21: Map of Birkenau (Formerly Exhibit "H")
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, Mr. Vrba ---
A. I am, for the last thirty-five years,
accustomed to be called Dr. Vrba, but if it is not suitable for
you, you can call me sir. It is shorter.
Q. Thank you very much, sir. Would you
agree with me that I am now pointing -- you had better check and
see that I am pointed in the right place -- to the protruding
portions that you've identified, and there's two places where
you put three dots. Is that right two places where you put three
dots?
A. Yes. Yes. But I have specified that
it was protruding from the cremotorium as a bunker. That should
cover the situation.
Q. All right. I would just like to show
that to the jury.
Now, Dr. Vrba, just tell us once more
how it was that you saw the S.S. man get up onto that bunker.
A. You mean I should repeat my statement from yesterday?
Q. Just the part about getting up to
the bunker. Just describe that. Let me say to you that you said
he put one can up on top ....
A. Yes. He first put the cans down because
he brought them not with the carriage; he brought them under his
arms, and there might have been five or six.
Q. Five or six cans.
A. Yes.
Q. And he picked one up and put it on
top?
A. First one down and he started to put
them up on top, and he crept up on it like a monkey, which surprised
me.
Q. You say he hooked his arms over the
edge and pulled himself up?
A. Yes. He sort of climbed up like a
monkey.
Q. He had to reach up to the edge of
the bunker?
A. Yes. Or, you know, to get a hold with
his hand.
Q. Yeah.
A. And then he was climbing over the
cement, which is rather smooth, but he managed to get up.
Q. Well, the last time you said he was
rather sporty in the way he pulled himself up, yesterday.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how high was it that he had to
reach up?
A. I would say it was high enough that
he couldn't walk up, but he could make an exercise.
Q. He could make an exercise?
THE COURT: Just a minute. Just stay where
you are.
THE WITNESS: He had to make an effort.
He couldn't walk up or jump up. It was higher than that.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Did he have to reach
higher than I am reaching now?
A. Possibly.
Q. And then, getting a hold of the edge
of the roof and pulling himself up?
A. Possibly, but possibly his hands were
in this position. This I wouldn't, after forty years, to say,
or so. You can say, then, of course, if my memory is imbecile,
but after forty years this difference in movement I couldn't guarantee.
Q. Well, I suggest to you, sir, that
-- were you talking about a flat roof?
A. Yes.
Q. And this roof, you say, was fixed
with vents, there were vents on it three?
A. Three or four.
Q. On your picture you drew three.
A. Yeah.
Q. And you led us to believe that he
was rather sporty, and you remember yesterday you used that term?
A. Yes.
Q. You said it was unusual for an S.S. man to do that?
A. Yes, because they had a pathological
condition of his self dignity. And here I saw he didn't care.
Q. So am I clear in understanding you
that the wall that he had to climb up on was a cement wall?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you sure of that?
A. Pretty sure.
Q. Pretty sure?
A. Yes. I didn't touch it, but as far
as I can see cement from a distance of fifty yards, I would say
pretty sure. I had no doubt in my mind about it.
Q. Do you know what a Leichenkeller is?
A. Yes.
Q. You know what it is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. It is a mortuary.
Q. I suggest to you that what you are
talking about is the roof of the mortuary, and the mortuary was
underground.
A. Have you been there?
Q. No, I haven't, sir. Have you?
A. No, but I've heard that it was a gas
chamber from those who worked there.
Q. You say you haven't been there.
A. No, not inside. Usually those who
were inside didn't come out, so I was lucky not to be in there.
Q. You are very amusing, sir, but please
answer my question. Do you say that the roof of the building was
above the ground, or parallel to the ground level?
A. The roof was above the ground, but
you could see that it was a roof of something which goes deep
down, and mortuary was not necessary there for camp inmates because
we had, at maximum, in Birkenau, only three hundred or four hundred
daily dead, and they were taken in every night to Auschwitz for
burning. So why would they have a mortuary of the size of thirty
yards long for four hundred dead which had perfectly good place
in Fred's little cabin?
Q. So in Fred's little cabin you kept
three hundred or four hundred dead every day.
A. Yes.
Q. And from there they were taken to
the crematoria.
A. That's right. And the cabin wasn't
bigger than this here, you see, and I can show you how three hundred
people can be put within this space.
Q. With enough room for you to drink
coffee?
A. And enough room for us to drink coffee
on table on top of it, yes, with a white serviette under us.
Q. Now, you gave us reason to believe
that if a person was sick they went to hospital and there was
no treatment and they would die. Right?
A. Usually, but sometimes there was treatment.
Q. Yes. Well, was it the case that they
tried to keep people alive?
A. In that hospital?
Q. No. In the camp at all. My impression
from you yesterday was that if somebody got sick and couldn't
work, they were either put on the ground and a bar was put across
his throat and then the Kapo would jump on both sides of the bar
and break his throat ....
A. That's right, if he was in the mood,
or ---
Q. .... or just a moment he would be
killed by the Blockältester for not standing or if he was
in the mood, he would send him to the hospital, which was not
a hospital but Krankenbau; Krankenbau, translated, did not mean
hospital but it means a building for the sick.
A. That is what it was called.
THE COURT: Mr. Christie, I think we will
adjourn. Twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:30 a.m.
THE COURT: Doctor, you can step down.
Please do not discuss this case with anyone until this case is
completed.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
THE COURT: Is there anything, gentlemen,
before I call the jury?
MR. CHRISTIE: No. Thank you.
THE COURT: Bring in the jury, please.
--- The jury enters. 12:00 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. I was asking you, Dr. Vrba, about whether
people who were sick ever received medical treatment.
A. There were exceptions that they did
receive medical treatment.
Q. You were one of them; in fact, you
had a surgical operation and were anesthetized and, obviously,
recovered. Is that right?
A. That is so.
Q. You developed, I understand, some
kind of infection in the area of your posterior; am I right?
A. That's right.
Q. And it obviously resulted in you being
unable to work at all, right?
A. This is a consequence of beating.
Q. Yes, because you were beaten. You
suffered an injury and were beaten by a Kapo?
A. No. By an S.S. man.
Q. And you suffered an injury and then
you were taken to a hospital where you were anesthetized, and
before you were completely under the anesthetic I gather they
had begun operating on you.
A. That's right.
Q. And you recovered?
A. That's right.
Q. So I suppose that there was some kind
of septicimia or blood poisoning from your previous injury; is
that right?
A. The beating on the buttocks usually
results in the destruction of a number of tissues connected to
it, and that cells are liable to infection which then spreads.
The surgery was therefore necessary to prevent a general poisoning
of blood.
Q. You went to the hospital; you got
the surgery and you recovered.
A. Yes.
Q. I suppose that they had to apply stitches
to the wound.
A. Possibly.
Q. You don't know?
A. I don't know. The wound is still there.
Q. Now, I'd like you to turn to page
209 of your hardcover book. I'd like you to read the third paragraph
with me and make sure I don't miss a word. It begins with the
words, "His physical strength".
Have you found it? Page 209 of your edition.
A. I am looking for it.
Q. It is actually the third full paragraph from the top. The first part
of the paragraph begins from the previous page, so it begins with
the words, "His physical strength".
A. On page 208.
Q. 209.
A. 209?
Q. Yes.
A. "His physical strength was such",
yes.
Q. ".... that even the Monkey Tyn,
the Camp Senior, was afraid of him. His contacts among the influential
prisoners in general and the Sonderkommando, who had access to
the valuables of the gas chamber victims, in particular, were
closer than those of Fero Langer."
Am I pronouncing that right?
A. Yes.
Q. "He was a millionaire even by
the standards of Birkenau, where I have seen twenty-dollar bills
used as toilet paper; ...."
A. Yes.
Q. " ....and he used his wealth
to gain power over the S.S. by the simple expedient of bribery."
A. That's right.
Q. So it is right that you have seen
$20 bills used as toilet paper in Birkenau?
A. I used them.
Q. You used them.
A. Yes, so that they don't get into the
hands of the Germans.
Q. So that's the truth, then.
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. These are $20 American
bills, or Canadian bills?
A. I have seen only American money and
English pound. The English pounds were much more suitable for
this purpose because they were printed only on one side.
Q. So you've seen people use these for
toilet paper as you say.
A. Yes.
Q. You watched them use them for toilet
paper?
A. Well, they usually were in a certain
amount of privacy and I didn't look so close, but I knew that
sometimes money which had to be delivered to the S.S., when we
were sorting out the property, has been disposed of instead of
being given away, into the toilets, so that the Nazis don't get
hold of Western currency. It was a type of sabotage.
Q. I see. Why not just rip the money
up?
A. Because by ripping the money up it
is rather a long process, and if somebody would see it, you would
lose the life of it.
A. Well, it would be easier to smuggle
it into a latrine and use it for toilet paper?
A. Well, if you go to the toilet you
might use it for toilet paper, or if you are worried, you can
throw it in. Sometimes I threw bundles of hundred-dollar notes.
Q. I see. Whole bundles of hundred-dollar
notes.
A. That's right.
Q. And you also seemed to indicate that
bribes in the region of hundred thousand British pounds were used
in the camp, don't you?
A. This is quite possible, yes; but such
bribes were not paid in currency. They were paid, usually, in
diamonds you know, a tin-full with diamonds is sometimes worth
hundred thousand pounds or more.
Q. Well, I understand you to have said,
at one point, that somebody bribed an S.S. guard with a hundred
thousand pounds.
A. Well, I didn't refer to cash. I referred
to valuables valued at hundred thousand pounds.
Q. The way I understand the story you
told was that the S.S. guard would be paid from somebody outside
the camp.
A. I don't understand now to which story
you refer.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You don't remember that?
A. Would you please remind me? There
were several stories, bribery of S.S. The S.S., apart from being
murderers, were also thieves. This goes together.
Q. Sure. You don't recall the story of
the hundred-pound bribe that you used in your book? There were
more than one?
A. The bribe that Charles Ungel paid
in order to smuggle him out from the camp?
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. Yes, I remember the story, and I remember
that money was supposed to be paid. It was in tins. So this means that I assume that
there were gold and $20 pieces and various other gold monets,
and mainly diamonds with considerable size of carats, and it would
be roughly valued to a value of half a million dollars or hundred
thousand pounds.
Q. Mm-hmmm. Do you agree with me that
many people escaped from Auschwitz?
A. I have no statistics about it.
Q. Are you familiar with the book, "Fighting
Auschwitz", by Joseph Garlinski?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you familiar with that book?
A. I think I perused that book, yes.
Q. Sorry?
A. I perused that book. I even met Mr
Garlinski in Paris once in 1972.
Q. Yeah. Do you agree with me that he
indicates that altogether there escaped from Auschwitz and its
sub camps, chiefly Birkenau, 667 prisoners of whom sixteen were
women in 1942, in 1941, six ---
A. Does he refer to successful attempts or escapes of attempts?
Q. Well, later on he deals with how many
were successful, but I am dealing with escapes.
A. Well, you see, here you must take
it with a pinch of salt, because Germans considered escapes attempt,
they hang. For example, I saw a political prisoner hanged because
he had two shirts under his tunic, and he said he wear two shirts
because he is feeling cold, and the answer was, if others can
feel one shirt without feeling cold and he wears two shirts, then this is obviously preparation for escape
and he was hanged for that. Now, in the statistics it would go
as execution for attempt to escape, so I don't know, therefore,
how the statistics correlate for attempts to escape.
Q. So you don't know whether there were
other people who escaped or not.
A. I know that there was a major outbreak
of sixty-five Russians under special circumstances, and I have
been present on numerous amount of hangings of people who were
supposed to have tried to escape.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. But I have got no personal knowledge
of anybody who successfully escaped without being brought back
into the camp.
Q. I see. So nobody successfully escaped.
A. To my knowledge.
Q. So that is why, I suppose, nobody
but you would have raised the extermination allegation. Is that
your explanation?
A. No. Some people escaped, perhaps,
and went into hiding. And so that they are perfectly satisfied
with the achievement that saved their lives from the hands of
those murderers, but I felt that I have to do more, and that is
why I wrote the report and tried to allow the events which are
occurring in Auschwitz.
Q. You had a deep and abiding hatred
for the Germans, I would imagine.
A. I am perfectly fluent in German as
well as in Russian, and I love Goerthe and I love Pushkin and I am an enemy of anything that smells
of hatred against a nationality. I had a perfectly human hatred
against Nazis because these were anti-human organization against
whom the whole world was fighting for bloody six years, and I
was no exception in the will and decision to do everything possible
to get this evil down from the face of the earth.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So it's a political organization
you hated, not the people themselves.
A. To hate the people as a nation I consider
a criminal matter.
Q. Mm-hmmm. You hated the Nazis, though,
I assume from your answer; is that right?
A. I would say so.
Q. And you hate them enough to lie about
them?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Do you hate them enough to lie about
them?
A. I have sworn on oath that here I will
say the truth, and you will make an innuendo that I have lied
in anything, then you would have to support it with some evidence,
otherwise I would think badly about it.
Q. Well, I suggest to you that in your
previous evidence you gave us to believe and told us as a fact
that when the S.S. man climbed up on the long bunker, he had to
reach up six and a half to seven feet. I put it to you that that
is exactly what you said, sir, isn't it?
A. Is it?
Q. I put it to you, and you are the witness, and you have the memory and
you testified, I put it to you that's what you said.
A. I said, basically, that he had to
reach up upon that bunker, and that bunker was, as far as I remember,
certainly up to here if one would stand nearby, perhaps higher.
So in other words he had to reach up and he had to climb. I didn't
go there with a tape to measure if it was five or seven. You must
understand that if I use such approximations, I am using them
in order to make it more understandable to the jury and to the
court of what approximately was involved, but they are not identical
with engineering measurements.
Q. Well, you gave us to believe and you
told us, as a matter of fact, and I put it to you that you said
six and a half to seven feet.
A. Yes.
Q. That's what you said.
A. Yes, that would be approximately the
height of a grown-up man
Q. Aha.
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I put it to you that the roof
of the Leichenkeller to which you referred on the map ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... was actually parrallel to and
very close to the ground.
A. That is what you are putting to me?
Q. Yes. That's right.
A. How do you know that?
Q. Because I have seen the plans, if
you want an answer. Have you seen the plans?
A. No.
Q. I will show them to you. I now produce
and show to you George Wellersleigh's [Wellers] "Gas
Chambers" -- or "Les Chambres a Gas ont Existée"
The Gas Chambers Do Exist.
A. Did exist.
THE COURT: Ask him if he knows about
the book and the plan.
MR. CHRISTIE: Have you seen this book
before?
A. I have never seen this book before,
but I have seen the author, George Wellers.
Q. Have you seen these plans before?
A. I have not seen the plans. May I make
a remark?
Q. You described the death of Josef Erdelyi,
on page 149, 152 193 [153] of my book, and then on page
170. Can you tell me why you described it?
A. Could you once more tell me the numbers?
Q. On page 149, 152 and 153 149, 152
you describe the death of Josef Erdelyi from typhus, and then
on page 152 you describe him as being with you. Can you explain
that?
A. Numbers up to 153?
Q. Yes. Those are the pages and they
are identical. You are using the hardcover edition; I am using
the soft edition.
A. Well, I don't need to go into the
matter to explain this, because I remember it quite well. What
happened is the following:
I described in the book the death of
Erdelyi, and then, later, Erdelyi appears as a hanging
as a witness; is that right?
Q. That is what I recall.
A. That's right. That was in the book.
You are recording it quite right. This means that I described
how my friend, Erdelyi from Banowce (ph), a friend of mine, from
childhood, in approximately September or October 1942, but in
later part of the book, until then, I haven't written anything
about the procedures which are applied in Auschwitz for attempts
to escape. And the first time when I saw such procedures was approximately
in July 1942, in the first week when I was in Auschwitz. At that
time Erdelyi lived. In other words, what I have used in this book
is what is a general technique of many who write books on literature,
that is a flashback.
Q. Yes. Okay. So it's a flashback, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now, in the book you give narrative.
You give words to people and you create situations.
A. Words to people who create situations?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I don't create situations. I describe
situations.
Q. Can you tell us how, in this book,
you describe the words uttered by people at the time?
A. I certainly didn't have a stenographist
nearby to record the words exactly, neither did
I have a dictaphone to ---
Q. But I suggest you have a good imagination,
so I suggest you created the words.
A. You can call it imagination or you
can call it good memory.
Q. Yeah.
A. In other words, I have created the
situation in an artistic way, if you allow me to count myself
on account of this book as an artist or as an artistic attempt.
Q. I suggest, also, that you falsified
to some extent as well, because throughout the book you referred
to someone by the name of Rudolf Vrba, and you attribute the name
Vrba to the conversations, and Rudi, meaning you, and in fact,
there was nobody by that name in the camp, sir. Is that right?
A. That is perfectly so, but I would
take a great objection against your word "falsify",
because I would say, then, that the artist drawn my moustache
in a different way has falsified something. This is not a document,
but literature, and literature has been meant mainly for young
people and it would be for young people a considerable confusion
to explain to them all the methods of clandestine work and how
it came that the names have to be changed.
Moreover, I would have to explain my
real ground and reasons why I changed my German name to the name
of my native language, and this would have transferred, perhaps,
a national hatred to the reader, which I wanted to avoid, against
the Germans.
In other words, I used my licence of a poet, it is called licensia poetarium,
to put in the book only those facts and events which will enable
a young person to understand the general situation.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So for you it's poetic licence?
A. Poetic licence in this particular
case.
Q. Yeah.
A. In other words, I am not bound to
make of it a document, but re-creates the situation as close as
possible to the truth without complicating it.
Q. Without complicating it. Without quoting
from the book that you have, I am quoting from one that you acknowledge
is attributed to you. Maybe we should check the foreword, the
preface in the one you have.
A. Yes.
Q. See if it's the same preface.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. Will you agree with this statement
about this writing: "There is no chip on his shoulder; and
bitterness, where it exists, is controlled carefully by undeniable
facts, not by fancies ...."
Do you agree?
A. Where bitterness ....
Q. No. ".... and bitterness, where
it exists, is controlled carefully by undeniable facts, not by
fancies."
A. That is perfectly so. In the first
line, as far as the bitterness, it is absolutely unimportant in
this Court whether I am bitter or sweet. The fact is, whether
I am right or wrong about the gas chamber in Auschwitz, as far as the preface which
is written about Mr. Alan Bestic, you have to discuss the literary
merits of Mr. Bestic with him personally.
Q. I am interested in discussing the
facts with you, and I want to know if you say that it is an undeniable
fact contained within this book.
A. This book describes that Auschwitz
was a place of mass extermination, that during the time when I
was, 1,760,000 men, women and children were murdered in a low
way.
Q. In the gas chamber?
A. In the gas chamber and otherwise.
Q. I have a question for you.
A. Please don't interrupt -- and to this
extent, the book, naturally, is true.
Q. You say 1.7 million people were gassed
in Auschwitz, and that is truth?
A. 1.7 million -- 1,760,000 plus, in
the time of my being there, because many others were killed when
I wasn't there, but I wasn't an eye witness and I have no right
to talk about that.
Q. You say 1.75 --
A. 1.765, according to my count.
Q. Of people gassed while you were there
A. Yes.
Q. That includes Jews and gentiles and
everybody else.
A. That's right.
Q. Isn't it true that in the War Refugee
Report that you provided at the time, that you said 2.5 million people were gassed while
you were there.
A. I've got the War Refugee Board here
in front of me, and it comes from the Office of the President
of the United States of America, and has a seal of the Criminal
Division of the Office of Special Investigations.
Q. I am wrong. I will withdraw that question.
A. You are wrong again, or should I prove
that you are wrong?
Q. No, that's fine. I'll admit I am wrong.
A. Because according to here ---
THE COURT: Just a moment, Doctor. Defence
counsel has said, as I heard him, that he was wrong. I don't think
there is any need for you to prove it unless he asks you again.
A. Thank you.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: You say 1.765 million,
is that right?
A. 1.765 thousand.
Q. Right. Did you see one person being
gassed yourself?
A. I saw 1.765 thousand people walk into
the space between Krematorium I and Krematorium II, Krematorium
III and Krematorium IV, were in front of my eyes knowing that
the space is absolutely closed, because there is no road out from
there except coming back the way they went in, and nobody came
out from there except smoke. If you, perhaps, suggest that they
are still there, that's a different thing.
Q. Well, we will discuss that in a moment,
but we will find in your book where it says and I am using page
ten, but your book is slightly different I am just going to read
it to you:
"For the machinery that sucked in
2,500,000 men, women and children in three years and puffed them
out in harmless black smoke ...."
Was that what you said?
A. Which page is that?
Q. Mine was ten. Yours is around there
in your hard cover.
A. Well, this is a very simple calculation,
Mr. Counsel, because when I escaped on April 7, 1944, the main
message which I was carrying was that everything is prepared for
the mass murder of Hungarian Jews. At that time there was one
million Hungarian Jews, and as you can find from historical documentation
which is presently available, in the time of July 15 to -- May
15, 1944 to July 7, 1944, not less than 437,000 Hungarian Jews
were deported to Auschwitz, of which ninety percent were gassed
at arrival.
Now, if you add to 1,765,000 those Hungarian
Jews which were deported to Auschwitz immediately after my escape,
plus as we know many thousands of Jews who were brought to Auschwitz
for process of mass murder from the ghetto of Loge and from the
ghetto of Theresine in the month after my escape, you will find
that my figures are as true as possible or as close as possible
to the historical records.
Q. So you are telling me about the facts
that you gathered from other sources and you are telling me that it is ---
A. Plus my judgment, with my accuracy,
with trusting to what I have seen, and with knowing what happened
in Hungary, because many of my relatives perished at the same
time, and with knowing, studying the history of this period, I
arrived at a figure of two and a half million dead in Auschwitz,
saying that this figure is pretty close to the truth, but the
truth cannot be established with my means better than with a maximum
possible error of truth minus ten per cent. That is clearly stated
at the end of this book. And in my affidavit, which I have put
under oath, the Embassy of Israel 1960 the Eichmann trial, and
if I am allowed to quote the exact ---
THE COURT: Not at the moment.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: It was a simple question
as to whether you estimated 2,500,000, and I think you said yes,
and you've told us why. Maybe I will go on to another question
unless there is something you want to say.
A. And you have got here everything how
I came to the 2,500,000. You are confusing us here because the
jury did not read the book, and therefore you are again pulling
out things which I have to repeat and which are here on this page,
and I can tell you on this page is written that I have seen only
one million three quarters to die until April 7th, and I have
also said that the figure two and a half million is made up by
the addition of the final value of my statistics in April 1944
plus a known figure of 400,000 Hungarian Jews killed in May, June
and July 1944, plus official figure of about 350,000 registered prisoners
who died in Auschwitz.
Thus, as far as I could recollect, according
to my memory, observations and opinion, the number of victims
in Auschwitz was two and a half million. Thus, my estimation of
the death roll in Auschwitz and the estimation made by Rudolf
Hoess, the commander of Auschwitz, made independently of each
other and using different methods, were nevertheless in good agreement,
and I declare by Almighty God that this is my name and signature
and that the contents of my affidavit are true.
So you see what is the difference between
you tearing out a statement and between presenting the statement
in full as I suggested.
Q. I suppose the only difference is,
you confirm that your figures now agree with those of Rudolf Hoess.
Right?
A. As far as I could see. I read the
figures of Rudolf Hoess and I arrived at the same conclusion as
Rudolf Hoess. Also, Rudolf Hoess statistics, his method of observation
is different than mine, and he came to the same figure. But I
gave my figure in April 1944 when Rudolf Hoess was still commander
in Auschwitz, and that figure was reached the President of the
United States in November 1944, when Rudolf Hoess was still commander
in Auschwitz, and it is therefore obvious that it is not likely
that I copied my statement from Rudolf Hoess.
Q. No. I quite agree with you. But how
do you explain the fact that the estimate given by you coincided with a statement given
by Hoess two years later?
A. Because Hoess knew the truth, and
I knew the truth.
Q. How do you explain the fact that experts
like Dr. Raul Hilberg dispute that figure and say it is closer
to one million, or, in Reitlinger's case, 800,000 at Birkenau?
A. It is not for me to explain the scholarships
of Reitlinger or Hilberg, because they have different methods
of scholarships. For them, if they do not have documents of considerable
value and amount, which are very difficult to obtain, they prefer
not to include that figure in their final calculation, because
they are bound by historical discipline; whereas my figure is
based on eye witness account.
Q. You claim that you then were an eye
witness to the gassing of 1,765,000 people, right?
A. Right. And I think that in this respect
both Hilberg and Reitlinger has made an under estimate. Similarly,
both Hilberg and Reitlinger have stated that the number of Jews
killed in Einsatzkommandos this means by shooting and not by gassing
was 1,400,000, but three years ago I have written a new study
by Professor Krowsnick from Germany, Professor in Cologne and
Director of the Institute ...................................
and this professor Krowsnick [Krausnick], on the basis
of exclusivity, German documents, without investigating any of
the survivors but investigating only the German officers and their
correspondence about it, was able to reconstruct that it was not
1.4 million, but two and a quarter million who were murdered by the Einsatzkommandos.
So you can see that in spite of the great
effort which the Nazis have made to cover up the incredible crimes,
modern scholarship is constantly improving with more than scientific
methods the truth. The truth is not so simple. So you can ---
Q. Now, sir ---
A. So you can see it is not criticism
of Hilberg and Reitlinger. It just shows that better scholars
with better methods and better access to sources can give more
exact figures and those figures are most close to mine, based
on observation, than the figures close to scholars who spend their
lives only in limited amount of libraries.
Q. So your experience, then, supersedes
your knowledge on the basis of what you said.
A. This would be natural, because I was
there.
Q. And you counted 1,765,000 going into
the gas chamber.
A. That was told to you twice.
Q. Thank you. You also described the
situation where you said that the guards forced the prisoners
to sing "Silent Night" and beat them to death if they
didn't. Is that right?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You, in your book, describe a situation
where the guards forced the prisoners to sing "Silent Night"
at Christmas time, and if they didn't sing properly they were
sent to bed without supper. Is that right?
A. That is right partially. Others were
murdered.
Q.They were murdered for not singing
"Silent Night" properly.
A. That's right. And if I may add another
legal point of view, I have been approached by the German Embassy,
German Consulate in Vancouver three months ago on the case of
investigation of the well-known event in Auschwitz I and Birkenau,
that during Christmas of 1942 they put up a great Christmas Tree
and brought there a number of prisoners, killed them and hanged
them over that Christmas Tree and proclaimed that this is a suitable
ornamentation at this period in this place. This became an investigation.
The perpetrators of the crime are known by name to the Consul
General of the Federal Republic of Vancouver, and I am sure he
will be more than willing to provide you with the documentation.
THE COURT: Just a moment, Doctor. We
are getting far afield here. What is your next question?
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Is it your observation
that prisoners would be singing on their way to work from Birkenau?
A. Yes.
Q. And they would go out and work in
the fields from the women's camp the women would go out and work
in the fields? Do you deny that?
A. I haven't seen that. I have seen them
marched to various places of work.
Q. Singing.
A. Singing. On order. German songs.
Q. Yes.
A. But I have never seen them working
in the fields. I saw them working in Kanada this means during
sorting out of the goods which were stolen from the victims, and
I have seen them being marched into the armament factories of
Krupps and Siemens and of German armament factories DAW, but I
didn't see them working on any fields. There might have been such
a thing, but I was not aware of it and I was not an eye witness
to it.
Q. Sure. Are you aware that in your book
you described an air raid upon Auschwitz-Birkenau in April of
1944, two days after you escaped?
A. April ....
Q. April '44.
A. Which day?
Q. I think you said the 9th of April,
two days after you escaped.
A. That's right.
Q. Is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. I was going to ask you if, in view
of the fact that you dispute what Reitlinger and Hilberg said
because they are not at the scene whether you agree that other
authors who were at the scene and lived in the concentration camp
say there was no air raid until August of '44 two months after
you were gone.
A. This I can easily explain, this apparent
discrepancy, by simply showing you a map.
Q. Please do. You know what I mean, don't
you, when I say ---
A. Very well.
Q. You know that Primo Levy, who claims
that he was a survivor of Auschwitz, claims that there was no
air raid until later until after you left?
A. Pretty well. I will explain where
the discrepancy arose.
Q. Before you get the explanation, let
me put on record what I suggest he says. You know that he says,
quoting page 107 of his book, "Survival in Auschwitz",
by Primo Levy, he says:
"But in August '44 the bombardments
of Upper Silesia began and they ...... pauses and renewals in
the summer and autumn until a definitive crisis ...."
Now, you read about that and you are
aware of it?
A. Beg your pardon?
Q. You know about that passage, don't
you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Now, can you explain:
"On the night of April 9th we had
a shock of a distant nature. About eight o'clock we heard the
rumble of distant air planes, soemthing we had not known in Auschwitz.
They came closer and closer and then bombs began to scrunch not
far away."
You agree that is what you wrote?
A. Yes.
Q. One other question. There is no doubt
about Auschwitz-Birkenau being in Upper Silesia and Primo Levy
is talking about Birkenau in his book.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you explain it?
A. Am I allowed to go to the projector?
THE COURT: If you feel that is the best
way to explain it, you may do that.
THE WITNESS: On April 7, 1944, I went
into hiding. This was for my escape. And I stayed there for three
days and nights covered by many layers of wood. Here, at this
place, approximately at the northeastern corner of Birkenau camp,
were situated a battery of anti-aircraft artillery.
When I was hidden in my place here, it
wouldn't be possible for me, due to the position of this anti-aircraft
battery that I never heard before, to distinguish if it was a
bombardment or if the artillery has been activated. As far as
I know it has been published recently that the first planes flew
over Auschwitz already on 1st April 1944, and as far as I remember
I heard a plane overhead and I heard strong explosions which were
shooking the bunker in which I was. It is quite likely that the
artillery fire which was opened on the 9th against the air plane
in the situation in which I was, I consider for the bombardment.
Q. Thank you.
A. In which case I made an error.
Q. So really, what you said as to bombs
falling, was the anti-aircraft guns going on?
A. If there were no bombs, then it was
anti-aircraft guns which were in close vicinity.
Q. Mm-hmmm. But anyone else who was in
the camp would have heard the same guns, wouldn't they?
A. I would think so.
Q. And you don't dispute what Primo Levy,
a prisoner, says, then.
A. Well, I don't dispute it, but Primo
Levy, if you read carefully his book, he was in Auschwitz III
at that time, which is further in the Bunawerk than I was from
the artillery which was operated about a distance of two hundred
yards, whereas he was in a distance of about six miles. So he
might have heard something different than I did.
Q. Oh, I see. Thank you.
A. You didn't take notice that Primo
Levy was in Auschwitz III.
Q. No, I'll check that, though.
A. Please do.
Q. You describe that you went to the
hospital and recovered and had surgery and you had an operation.
How do you explain your miraculous value as opposed to others
who you say were not given treatment?
A. I will explain in a minute. Your Honour,
can I leave the room for two minutes?
THE COURT: Yes. Members of the jury,
you are excused for five minutes.
--- The jury retires. 12:45 p.m.
--- The witness retires.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
--- The jury enters. 12:50 p.m.
MR. CHRISTIE: I think, Dr. Vrba, you were
telling us why you were of exceptional value that you should have
been given a surgical operation to save your life.
A. I am quite sure I didn't tell it in
those words.
Q. No. I asked in those words. I suggested
to you that that could be the only explanation why you would be
saved and given a surgical operation and nobody else, and everybody
else be killed when they are sick.
A. Well, you are again misrepresenting
something which was written in the book, and if you will allow
me, and if Your Honour allows me, I am rectifying this misrepresentation.
Q. Well, I will be glad to hear your
explanation.
A. When I became very sick I wasn't able
to go to work any more and I was put into the Krankenbau where
I was for about one week, and it was known, there were in Auschwitz
I, there were eight hundred or nine hundred dying people there
from various diseases, and during that time I have made some connection
with someone who has got flu among the prisoners in the camp,
there was a German prisoner called Bruno who was the head of Kanada
---
Q. Just a minute. Kanada didn't exist in Birkenau remember?
A. No. This was in Auschwitz. The operation took place in Auschwitz. You would help me if you would do your homework.
THE COURT: Just answer the question, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: And after a week of time
I have found the connection of this Kapo, Bruno, who was obliged
to me for a personal favour. This means that I didn't give away
that he stole something from somebody else under torture, in consequence
of which I suffered this reversal in my health. And this Kapo,
Bruno, had access to the properties in Kanada which were confiscated
from the murdered Jews and found ways to get them into his pockets
before they reach the pockets of the S.S. He was a thief, too,
and he used that to bribe a certain doctor, Dr. Derring, who was
surgeon formerly before the War, on the medical school in Warsaw,
and for proper reward he took the risk to operate, make a serious
surgery on a Jewish prisoner. So this was against the rules.
So he performed this surgery and he performed
it successfully. It was an excellent surgeon who, unfortunately,
wasn't too well equipped; but the situation is different, and
you managed to misrepresent it as if I would say that I am somebody
unusual.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. I had only luck that somebody helped me in a critical moment.
Q. Mm-hmmm. And your evidence is that nobody else got that kind of treatment, is it?
A. I wouldn't say that nobody else. I
would only say that such a treatment was available under suitable
star constellation, if I may put it that way.
Q. Star constellation?
A. Constellation of stars. It is a bit
of luck, with connections, and not sufficient control from the
S.S. who is being operated on it was possible, occasionally, to
make a successful operation on a Jew with a risk.
Q. Well, you were considered a Jew?
A. Of course.
Q. You were considered a political prisoner?
A. No. I was considered a Jew.
Q. You were not considered a political prisoner.
A. No.
Q. You never indicated that at any time.
A. In my book?
Q. At any time.
A. I indicated in my book that I have
been taken to the concentration camp Maidanek from the concentration
camp in Novaki (phonetic) with one thousand other Jews in a family
transport of Jews to the concentration camp of Novaki. I mentioned
even a number of Jews who were with me, and I mentioned that from
the people who were sent with me, I was the only one who was sent
alive, and if you will read the book carefully, I am sure you
will be able to confirm what I said here under oath.
Q. So you did not claim to be a political prisoner?
A. No, I did not claim to be a political prisoner.
Q. And in the War Refugee Report that you were supposed to have prepared it said the words, and I quote:
"Finally we were issued a set of
prisoners' clothes similar to those we had worn in Lublin and
were enrolled as political prisoners in the concentration camp
of Auschwitz."
Was that you?
A. I must first check on it. It is my
copy which I received, because you might, by error, give me something
to read which is not quite so.
Q. That's possible. Page 29 of the War
Refugee Board Report.
A. Yes.
Q. Lublin is where Maidanek is, isn't
it?
A. That's right.
Q. And that is you, isn't it?
A. That's right. And which line are you
referring to?
Q. The last line on page 29.
A. Yes. Political prisoners in the concentration
camp of Auschwitz. Now, this is the Report as I wrote it, it was
in the Slovak language from which it was translated into the German
language, from which it was translated into the English language,
and there is an error in translation which I can explain if I
am allowed to go, again, to the projector.
THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: I have no objection.
THE COURT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: As I explained to you as
your question, or as the question of Mr. Crown Attorney, all prisoners,
apart from the number, were marked. The political prisoners were
marked with a red triangle. The Jews were marked with a red triangle
over which was overlaid a yellow triangle, so that the whole thing,
together, makes -- I don't have yellow colour -- a Jewish star.
This meant a Jewish prisoner.
Q. A Jewish political prisoner.
A. It meant a Jewish prisoner. However, it was the habit ,
when one spoke about prisoners, it didn't say there were five
hundred prisoners, but used the word Schutzhäftlinge. This
is a German Nazi euphemism which, translated, means preventive
imprisonment. And in my original I have said that we were Schutzhäftlinge
which, due to the several translations, obviously, by the time
it was translated, meant political prisoners; but notice that
the word "political prisoners" is written in quotation
marks. So because Washington, they didn't have a dictionary which
didn't contain the Nazi lingo, they translated freely as political
prisoners and put on it quotation marks, a sign that they are
not quite sure of the translation. And this, you can see, I would
like to present that -- to whom should I present this evidence?
THE COURT: If you are finished with that, you can come back
to the box, please. Now you can finish your answer.
THE WITNESS: You will agree with me that the word "political
prisoners" in this American translation is in quotation marks,
whatever that means.
Q. Yes, I will agree with you. I will just ask you if you were a political prisoner, and your answer
is no.
A. No. I was a Jewish prisoner.
Q. Your answer is that it is a mistake by those of the War
Refugee Board in English?
A. Schutzhäftlinge into English, and translated it into
"political prisoners", and my answer is that they didn't
know how to translate it.
Q. Now, we are talking about the Gralinski book about Fighting
Auschwitz. Have you heard of this book?
A. I have heard about the book.
THE COURT: Just a moment. You were asked, Doctor, whether you
were familiar with the book.
THE WITNESS: I am not familiar with the book, but I heard about
the book.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: I wonder if I can ask you if you could address
your mind to this particular statement in the foreword to the
book, and maybe I can quote it to you.
A. Yes, please do.
Q. Okay. It says:
"Escape from Auschwitz was more common than from camps
that were within German-speaking territory. Over 600 escapers
are recorded of whom about one third got away."
Is that true or false?
A. This means that Mr. Gralinski is saying in his book?
Q. I didn't say Mr. Gralinski said that. It is printed in the book by M.R.D. Foot.
A. Yes.
Q. I want to know if it is a false or true statement.
A. It might be true or it might be false. Ask Mr. Foot.
THE COURT: We will adjourn till two thirty.
--- The jury retires. 1:00 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Luncheon adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The jury enters. 2:35 p.m.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
Q. I'd like to now produce and show to you what appears to
be a drawing that was made, I suggest, by you in your 1944 War
Refugee Board Report; is that correct?
A. Yes. I have shown it yesterday.
Q. Would you look at each one and make sure that they are all
identical? Then I may ask another question.
A. You say they are identical?
Q. I am suggesting they are.
A. Okay.
Q. Okay? I've made many copies.
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, may I give one to each of the jurors?
THE COURT: Have you seen these, Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, Your Honour. I am familiar with the drawing.
I have no objection if my friend wishes to do that.
MR. CHRISTIE: It's just a diagram made, I think, in 1944.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes. One of them may be made an exhibit, and then
they can be distributed.
THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 22.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 22: Diagram from War Refugee Board Report.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: That's your best recollection when you were
giving your report to the Czechoslovak authorities. Right?
A. Yes. That's about how I recollected the situation.
Q. Would you like to keep it?
A. Yes. Thank you.
Q. I'd like to distribute one of these to each member of the
jury.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, you agree with me, sir, that that's quite
different than the evidence you presented in-chief as your recollection of the camp; would
you agree?
A. No. Not at all.
Q. Okay.
A. That's untrue.
Q. I now produce and show to you what appears to be a photographic
kind of schema of the camp as I believe you presented it on your
overhead projection. Was that not the way you presented it before,
sir?
A. That's right. Except that this is dated 25th April, 1944,
and this is a later graph which I have taken out from the literature,
because it shows certain developments which took place after my
escape.
However, at the same time, the two graphs are not significantly
different, considering that this is done by engineers and this
by an amateur from memory.
Q. Recollection, yes.
A. Yes.
THE COURT: The second document you showed him, Mr. Christie,
is what?
MR. CHRISTIE: Actually, Your Honour, I can tell you that it
is a photocopy out of the book, Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers by Filip Müller, published Stein & Day, New York, 1979. And with your permission
I'd like to show that to the jury as I have several copies of
that as well.
THE COURT: As I recall it, Dr. Vrba has identified it as being,
in his view, at least, accurate.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Is that correct, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: I said that in my view this has been done after
my escape, this second map, and with considerable changes which
I was not aware my map. However, the changes were not so significantly
different so that the pictures were a reasonable semblance.
THE COURT: Yes. All right. Then you can do that, Mr. Christie.
THE WITNESS: It is like looking, if I may add, of a picture
of a three or four-year-old child. You can recognize both, but
it's not the same.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
MR. CHRISTIE: I then would offer this Madam Registrar, this
copy, and if I may I would like to show copies of this to the
jury.
THE COURT: Exhibit 23.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 23: Map of Auschwitz II, Birkenau.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, if I could, Doctor ---
A. Yes, please.
Q I think maybe there is an extra one.
A. Thank you very much.
Q. I'd like, if you would, to put this one in your right hand,
and the one that you drew in 1944 in your left hand, so we can
discuss them in that way.
A. Yes.
Q Is that all right, then? Okay. Now, looking at the right
hand, sir, I put it to you that the actual location of the bathhouse
is No. 9, called the Sauna.
A. Yes.
Q. You have indicated a bathhouse on the diagram in that general
area.
A. Yes.
Q. On your diagram of 1944; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Yeah. So at least as far as that is concerned, we are not
talking about something that wasn't there at the time, are we?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. When we talk about a bathhouse, we are talking about only
one in that area of the camp, which in the righthand drawing is
No. 9. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it seems to be drawn in your diagram in 1944. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. It is drawn in a totally different place, though, isn't
it?
A. No, it's not drawn in a totally different place. You've
got, excuse me, you've got there quite clearly on the righthand
side shown that the two crematoria and the one bathhouse are in
one complex, and the same you can see on my drawing, that the
two crematoria and the bath are in one complex.
In other words, my drawing hasn't got the engineering precision
of fifty or sixty yards, but these two pictures both identify that the two crematoria and
the bath are enclosed in barbed wire electric fences together.
Q. Yeah. I put it to you that the area just below the number
9, sauna, or bathhouse, is the area known as Kanada in the drawing;
isn't it?
A. That's right. And that area was not there when I was escaping
on 7 April, or at least, I couldn't see it because it is a long
time before my escape that I visited the crematoria.
Q. Oh, you visited the crematoria.
A. Yes.
Q. When?
A. On several occasions.
Q. Where did you go?
A. I went to have a look between the two crematoria and have
a look what is happening there.
Q. Oh, yes. And what was happening there?
A. I could see people being taken into the crematoria.
Q. And this is not the occasion when you were at Fred Wetzler's
mortuary. This is another occasion, is it?
A. Perfectly another occasion. There was occasion when I was
in -- Registrar in "BIIA", and my job was to go to "BIID",
and because I am a little bit of an inquisitive nature, and also
took a little bit of a risk, I am simply pretended that I've got
some business there and walked on.
Q. Oh, so you walked between the two crematoria.
A. That's right.
Q. Between Krematorias I and II?
A. No. Between Krematoria III and IV.
Q. Oh, between Krematoria III and IV, down the roadway.
A. That's right.
Q. They are marked 5 and 6 on diagram, aren't they, on the
righthand diagram.
A. I think that the right, or the righthand diagram, the crematoria
are denoted as 4 and 5, whereas in my diagram they are denoted
as III and IV. Now, this is because there were two types of nomenclature
of crematoria in Auschwitz. There was a smaller crematorium in
Auschwitz I.
Q. You saw that one too?
A. I saw, yes. I was inside there.
Q. Were you inside that, too?
A. Yes, being inquisitive, I was in there on occasion.
Q. And were the people gassed at one time?
A. Just a moment, please. Don't interrupt me. I would like
to explain to you the nomenclatures, because there is a discrepancy
between nomenclatures on your and my graph.
Now, the habit was that when crematoria were built in Birkenau,
the prisoners called them I, II, III, IV in the order in which
they were built, but the Bauleitung this means the Official Administration
of Builders took into consideration that there is already one
crematorium in Auschwitz and called the new crematoria II, III, IV and V.
Consequently, on my map what is called III and IV, which is
unofficial map because I gave it my own nomenclature, there is
a small difference between the map, the more official map and
which denotes the crematoria on the northern side of the map as
IV and V, whereas I denote them III and IV.
Q. I'm sorry, I don't think you've given me the answer to my
question as to whether you were in Krematorium No. I in Auschwitz.
A. No, I was not in Krematoria -- oh, in Auschwitz.
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Were people being gassed there at the time?
A. No, they were not gassed, and there was a particular occasion
when I went into that crematoria and ---
Q. I see.
A. There must have been a particular reason, because it was
not a walking sort of distance.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. When I was working in Kanada, in November 1942, I have been
taken to the dumping truck to Krematoria I in Auschwitz. The Krematoria
I in Auschwitz was on yard -- that yard on the lefthand side had,
to my recollection Krematorium I, and to the righthand side there
was a hospital for S.S. The best would be, again, if I show it
on a -- do I have permission?
Q. What I would really like to do is deal with the diagram we have in our hands. This is Birkenau
we are dealing with.
A. Yes.
Q. I asked you if you had been in Krema I in Auschwitz when
people were being gassed, and I think the answer is no. Correct?
A. The answer is no. I went there for collecting their clothes
from the gas chamber in Krematorium I.
Q. From the gas chamber?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you inside?
A. Yes.
Q. What did the gas chamber look like?
A. It was originally a garage which connected the S.S. barracks
with that small crematorium.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And there were garage doors.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And the roof was reinforced with earth. The inside was dark.
The door was opened ---
Q. How wide were the doors?
A. Like a good garage door, and two side opening to two sides.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. We went in under the pretext that we are collecting -- not
under the pretext, under the order to collect the clothes which
were there.
Consequently, as I understood, the people had to undress before
they went into that gas chamber.
Q. You are telling us ---
A. Then they were gassed, and then, because there were clothes
in the yard in front of the hospital, they were shoved in the
gas chamber before they were taken out. So I understand that was
my job at that time, so I collected the clothes.
Q. The clothes were in the gas chamber.
A. Right.
Q. Yes.
A. So we collected the clothes from there, and at that moment
I saw through the window of the crematorium a friend of mine from
Slovakia, Filip Müller.
Q. Who was he?
A. Filip Müller.
Q. Filip Müller in Auschwitz I?
A. . In Auschwitz I crematoria.
Q. Yes.
A. And I was also very well acquainted with his father.
Q. Yes.
A. Consequently, there was sort of an affinity between us because
I took a little bit care of his father before he died in Auschwitz.
We came together from Maidanek. I spoke with Filip Müller through
the window. Filip Müller explained to me ---
Q. Is this the crematoria part, or the gas chamber part?
A. No. On the yard, between the -- on the yard in front of
the crematorium, in front of the gas chamber, and in front ---
Q. Now, let's go to find on the map on Auschwitz I where this
is then.
THE COURT: That's Exhibit 21, I believe, isn't it?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes, sir. I'm sorry. It is marked "F"
for identification. Maybe we can deal with that now.
Q. Would you like to show us on this map where the crematorium
was in Auschwitz I?
A. On this map, which is not dated, it would be here, in this
region.
Q. All right. Let's mark that.
A. And it is marked something like KI.
Q. KI.
A. Yes. In this region.
Q. Would you like to just mark an arrow and mark it to that
area there?
A. Yeah. Not to that area there.
Q. Well, you do it.
A. I will show you this area.
Q. Okay.
A. Because I don't know the date of the map, and how many building
changes have been made since.
Q. Sure.
A. So since I have saw it in 1942 and since this map is not
dated, there might have been certain changes which I cannot clearly
recognize.
Q. But you are prepared to identify that building.
A. But I would prefer to say that the crematorium, here is
the entrance to Auschwitz, here is a Block 1, here is Block 22.
Yes, it was here in this region.
Q. Okay. So you just draw a circle on there, then, eh?
A. Yeah. And you can now mark it, please.
Q. So you want to put a mark on it to identify it?
A. What would you like me to write? Region of Krematorium I
and gas chamber I?
A. Yes. Go ahead.
Q. And you don't mind if I add that this was as recollected
from November 1942.
Q. Put it down.
A. Because how it look in November 1943, I don't know.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
THE COURT: Exhibit 24.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 24: Large map of Auschwitz I (Formerly Exhibit "E")
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: How do you explain the fact that you've drawn
on the diagram that I showed you every crematorium the same shape
in 1944, when you drew the diagram upon your escape.
A. Because I had only two days to write the whole report, and
to try to depict the crematoria.
There was a great urgency with that plan, because the objective
of the plan was to get it to Hungary and to use this whole report
towards the Hungarian Jews of imminent deportation.
Under that circumstance I didn't lose much time with details
like what is the difference between Krematorium I and II and Krematorium
II and III, but I limited myself to depict the position of the
gas chambers and crematoria one side, and the geographic position
of the whole murderous complex on the other side.
Q. Sure. I now produce and show to you a diagram which came
from, I suggest, your War Refugee Report of 1944 in which you
depicted a crematoria. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Is it accurate?
A. This I cannot say. It was said that as we were not in the
large crematoria, we reconstructed it from messages we got from
members of the Sonderkommando working in that crematorium, and
therefore, that approximately how it transpired in our mind, and
in our ability to depict what we have heard.
Q. That is what you depicted, though?
A. Yes.
Q. And it is accurately depicting what you depicted?
A. That's right. It is accurately depicting what I heard that
it might look like.
Q. Okay. So you were never inside any of the crematoria, then?
A. Except for Krematorium I in Auschwitz.
Q. Krematorium I in Auschwitz.
A. Yes.
Q. So this wasn't a drawing of that. This was supposed to be
crematoriums, two types, I and II, in Birkenau. Right?
A. That's right. And this was much more important because Krematorium
I in Auschwitz, at that time was of minor importance. It had a
capacity in several hundred people a day. This one had a capacity
of two thousand people a day, and there were two of them.
Q. Two thousand people a day?
A. That's right. Capacity. And there were other two that had
a capacity of thousand people a day. This is all written in my
report.
Q. Yes. And in your report you say twelve thousand people a
day were killed at Birkenau. Right?
A. You will have to show me a passage before we draw some conclusions.
Q. I will. Let's deal with this. Can I ask you if that accurately
sets out what you reported at that time?
A. Yes. In scheme.
Q. In scheme, yes.
MR. CHRISTIE: Could I file this, please, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Yes. Exhibit 25.
MR. CHRISTIE: I've got copies for the jury, if I may.
THE COURT: Yes.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 25: Map of Krematorium I and II, Birkenau.
MR. CHRISTIE: And a copy for the witness.
Q. I put it to you that you did say in your book in 1944 that
twelve thousand bodies were dealt with in twenty-four hours.
A. Could you please show me which page?
Q. I don't know, because it's in the first chapter, page ten
my book, but you've got a hard cover edition.
A. First chapter?
Q. Do you remember saying that?
A. Well, I do not have the whole book by heart and I first
would control what you are saying if it is true.
Q. Okay.
A. Or how far it is away.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. Would you please kindly turn to the chapter you've got in
mind?
Q. I think it is the first chapter. That is where you were.
A. First chapter. Chapter 1.
Q. Just before the Heinrich Himmler incident.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, top of the page, Chapter 1, page 10:
"And so he gave orders for the greatest, most efficient
extermination factory the world has ever known. For the modern
concrete gas chambers and the vast crematoria that could absorb
as many as 12,000 bodies in twenty-four hours and, in fact, did so. For the machinery that sucked in
2,500,000 men, women and children in three years and puffed them
out in harmless black smoke."
Have you got that paragraph? Do you recall writing that?
A. I would like to see if there are no changes from your version
and mine.
Q. Okay. Now, it's before, "Commandant Hoess's brand new
toy".
A. Is it on the end?
Q. No. Before that.
A. Yes. You see, if you don't find it in my original, then
I will have doubts about the papers which you present.
Q. I see.
A. With all respect to you.
Q. Sure. Now, we will have to find it for you.
What I am going to suggest to you is that your diagrams presented
at the time are certainly not consistent with your knowledge related
in your later book. Would you agree? Do you understand the question?
A. Yes. Please. I am listening to you.
Q. I said your diagrams presented in 1944 are totally inconsistent
with the information you presented in your later book. Would you
agree?
A. No, it is not true.
Q. All right. I now present and show to you the portion of
your book.
A. Yes.
Q. Dealing with the twelve thousand bodies a day.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q Right there. Page 15.
A. Page 15. Right. Yes:
"For the modern concrete gas chambers and the vast crematoria
that could absorb as many as 12,000 bodies in twenty-four hours
and, in fact, did so. For the machinery that sucked in 2,500,000
men, women and children in three years and puffed them out in
harmless black smoke."
Q. Right. Now, you said in your book further on that there
were fifteen ovens that could burn three bodies each simultaneously
in twenty minutes.
A. Where is it written in the book?
Q. Next. Two paragraphs down from the one that you just read.
A. Two paragraphs.
Q. Three paragraphs down.
A. "And so he gave orders for the greatest, most ...."
"Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz Camp again ....",
next paragraph, "This time I was glad to see him arrive ...."
THE COURT: A little louder, please. I can't hear, Doctor. The
jury has to hear this and so do I. The jury is more important
than I am.
THE WITNESS: Next paragraph:
"Once more we were lined up spic and span ...." Next
paragraph, "Though he conducted his tour of the camp with
his usual thoroughness ...." Next paragraph, "He was
to watch the world's first conveyor belt killing ...."
Q. Okay. That's the paragraph. It says in there:
"It was a truly splendid affair, one hundred yards long
and fifty yards wide, containing fifteen ovens which could burn
three bodies each simultaneously in twenty minutes ...."
A. Yes.
Q. That is what you said when you wrote your book.
A. Yes.
Q. When you prepared your report to the War Refugee Board,
you described a gas chamber with a railroad track leading to nine
ovens. Right?
A. A railroad track leading to several ovens ....
Q. Just a moment. You drew the diagram to indicate nine ovens.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. With four openings each, or how many?
A. There are no openings recorded.
Q. None, eh?
A. None.
Q. But you say in the report four openings each.
A. Do I say it in the report?
Q. Well, it's in your report. Don't you remember?
A. Well, I do remember. I've got a reasonably good memory,
but if I mention a report which I wrote exactly forty-two years ago, I'd like to check on it,
if you don't mind.
Q. Yes. But the point is, Doctor, that at the time you made
the report you were supposed to have a better memory, I suggest,
because of the closeness to the event, than you had when you wrote
the book.
A. Not necessarily, because at the time when I wrote the report
I was not interested in the details too much, but I was interested
in getting the message that crematoria exist, gas chambers exist,
and the henchmen's axe is prepared for a million Hungarian Jews.
So I gave some sort of depicting of geographic situation as well
as I could, some of my memory, like this exhibit here. I saw things
from inside and from friends got some rough idea what is inside.
I saw it from outside. I added to it what it might look like,
and in principle it is that the message was right. The crematoria
were there. They had roughly the capacity described in the report.
The geographic position of the crematoria was depicted with great
exactness.
Q. In the Refugee Board Report I suggest to you that it indicates
that it took an hour and a half to burn a body.
A. One moment. In which page?
Q. Well, first of all I ask you, do you not recall writing
that?
A. Well, I recall, and it is in the files of the Crown Attorney,
that there was a German publication recently published by somebody
very similar to your defendant in which his paragraph was grossly
distorted and embellished with lies which I have never written.
Q. Well, did you or did you not say that it took an hour and
a half to cremate a body?
A. I will first find it. If I said so, if you claim that I
said it in my report, then find it.
Q. Look at page 14, last paragraph of your report, War Refugee
Board Report:
"Each opening can take three normal corpses at once, and
after an hour and a half the bodies are completely burned."
Is that in your report now I found it for you?
A. "Each opening can take three normal corpses at once,
and after an hour and a half the bodies are completely burned."
Q. Yeah.
A. Right.
Q. Now, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Why do you say in your book that it takes twenty minutes
with fifteen ovens and three bodies each, in twenty minutes you
can burn them all? Why do you say two different things at two
different times?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Why do you say two different things at two different times?
A. I say one thing. What is the second thing?
Q. One thing was nine ovens.
A. Yes.
Q. The other thing was three bodies in an hour and a half.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in your book you say fifteen ovens, and three bodies
in twenty minutes.
A. I don't see those three bodies in an hour and a half. Excuse
me.
Q. All right. Well, we will go over it again. The War Refugee
Board Report made in 1944:
"Each opening can take three normal corpses at once, and
after an hour and a half the bodies are completely burned."
A. Right.
Q. The book which we were reading together yours is a different
page than mine:
"....fifteen ovens which could burn three bodies each
simultaneously in twenty minutes ...."
Now, do you see the difference?
A. No.
Q. None. You don't see the difference?
A. No, no. In both cases I estimated that one crematorium of
that type can burn at full capacity two thousand people per day.
Q. I am not talking about two thousand people. I am talking
about the number of furnaces which in one case, in the WRB, is
nine furnaces, and in the book is fifteen ovesn. In the WRB it
says nine furnaces each having four openings, which is four nines,
as far as I can figure, is thirty-six, and according to your book,
made some fifteen, twenty years later, fifteen ovens which could
burn three bodies each simultaneously in twenty minutes. You can't
see the difference?
A. No, I can't even see where it is written.
Q. You can't see where it is written one hour and a half the
complete burning of three bodies in the WRB, and you can't see
that that's different than saying you can burn three bodies simultaneously
in twenty minutes?
A. No. Will you show me on my copy if you have it?
Q. Page 14, if you've got it, on your WRB report. Last paragraph.
All right? It says:
"Each opening can take three normal corpses at once ...."
You got it?
A. Each opening.
Q. Yes.
A. Can take three normal corpses.
Q. At once.
A. At once.
Q. ".... and after an hour and a half the bodies are completely
burned."
A. Yes.
Q. Now, your book which we discussed -- have you lost your
page?
A. Yes. One moment. This corresponds a daily capacity of two
thousand bodies.
Q. Yes. Now, we go back to your book.
A. Yes.
Q. And we read the paragraph where you said, "He was to
watch the world's first conveyor belt killing, the inauguration
of Commandant's Hoess' brand new toy". We were over this
quite a few times now. You lost the part?
A. Yes. Okay.
Q. All right.
"It was a truly splendid affair, one hundred yards long
and fifty yards wide, containing fifteen ovens which could burn
three bodies each simultaneously in twenty minutes ...."
A. Yes.
Q. Now, fifteen ovens which could burn three bodies each simultaneously
in twenty minutes ....
A. Yes.
Q. So it seems from the time you were giving your best recollection,
shall we say, to the War Refugee Board, it changed substantially
to, from an hour and a half, to twenty minutes. Right? Do you
understand that?
A. Hour and a half.
Q. Yes. An hour and a half becomes twenty minutes.
A. Is ninety minutes.
Q. An hour and a half is ninety minutes. Twenty minutes is
twenty minutes. So there is a difference of seventy minutes. A
little problem?
A. One moment. I'm calculating something. I would think that
what I had in mind wasn't perfectly formulated, but my experience
was that knowledge, not experience, but my knowledge was that
three bodies were being burned always simultaneously, and that
this took about an hour more. That's what I recall.
Q. Not twenty minutes.
A. Now, if you divide an hour by three, because three bodies
were burned, you might come to the result of twenty minutes.
Q. Okay. And as far as the difference between four times nine
are thirty-six ovens, and fifteen ovens, how do you explain that
difference?
A. Which difference?
Q. Well, in the book, you agree, you say it's fifteen ovens,
and I suggest to you that's exactly what it was fifteen ovens.
A. Yes.
Q. Because you've had a chance to read some of the literature
from Filip Müller and others you knew you the plans when you
wrote your book. Right?
A. Well, I wrote the book twenty years before Filip Müller
did, so how could I consult Filip Müller?
Q. Because the plans were known to exist before you wrote your
book.
A. That's right.
Q. So you consulted the plans finally, didn't you?
A. Well, if I had consulted the plans, I would have published
the book at that time, but my intention was to keep the book as
free as possible from technical detail ---
Q. How about facts?
A. --- and giving the fundamental facts. The fundamental facts
was that there were four crematoria, that two were large and two
were small, that the large could consume two thousand people a
day and the small consumed a thousand people a day, and that the
theoritical capacity of all four crematoria, provided there is
no breakdown and provided that there is constant influx of victims,
is six thousand per day. And that is exactly the same in the book
and in the report.
Q. Is it?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's go back and find out, then, about that, because I
think you are wrong. Let's go back to the previous paragraph in
your book that we discussed where you say twelve thousand bodies
in twenty-four hours.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you say six thousand bodies in the WRB Report, the
paragraph that says and we've read it once ---
A. One moment. Where is the twelve thousand bodies?
Q. Well, we'll just have to go back. Three paragraphs before
the one we just finished reading.
A. Yes. That's perfectly all right.
Q. Is it?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell me ---
A. Because when I was writing this book, as I explained to
you at the start, I was not writing only what I saw, but I included
also things which I heard or learned from reliable sources.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And we know that although the theoretical capacity of all
the crematorias are depicted in my original report in '44, before
the annihilation of Hungarian Jews, could consume maximum only
twelve thousand victims a day, it became known later that Hungarian
Jews were transported at such a speed to Auschwitz that some days
up to twenty thousand units were, if I may paraphrase the Nazi
vernacular lingo were processed. And this is perfectly true.
In other words, I included into this twelve thousand not just
what happened during my time, but also during the time following
shortly my escape.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And sufficiently information for a young person who has
never heard about such things to understand that the murder was
in many thousands. And I will leave it to you to decide if it
is five thousand four hundred or seven thousand three.
Q. Why did you say in 1944, at the time of your escape, on
page 16, at the bottom of the first paragraph:
"Thus the total capacity of the four cremating and gassing
plants at Birkenau amounts to about six thousand daily"?
A. That's right.
Q. Then why did you say in your book:
"For the modern concrete gas chambers and the vast crematoria
that could absorb as many as 12,000 bodies in twenty-four hours
and, in fact, did so"?
A. What I had to add, that it did so with the help of additional
equipment which has been build up in May and June 1944, after
my escape. You might blame me that I haven't this made quite clear
in this introductory chapter, but as I told you, this book is
an artistic sort of conveying of the facts ---
Q. I am inteested ---
A. --- and is sufficiently giving the picture of what actually
happened, without going into the fine toothpoint number game of
which I have seen is a neo-Nazi literature ridiculous examples.
Q. Well, is your book classified as fiction, or is it classified
as history?
A. My book is classified as recollections of Rudolf Vrba, free
recollection of Rudolf Vrba as an educational book for young people
who should realize what Nazi depravity is able to. It is not supposed
to be a textbook of how to build crematoria.
Q. Well, your explanation, then, for the doubling of the numbers
from the WRB to the book you wrote later is basically that it
was from information acquired of the existence of some of the
apparatus.
A. Right, which has been added after my escape.
Q. Yeah. With these new buildings.
A. No.
Q. No new crematoria?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Are they the six meter deep crematorium pits? Is that
what you mean?
A. New pits were build.
THE COURT: Excuse me. Yes.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but the drawing
of the crematoria that the jury has, we have heard it was based
on hearsay at the time from Dr. Vrba, not an eye witness. Now he
is being cross-examined about things that happened after he was
there and again he is not competent to talk about these things.
He wasn't there at the time. He may have acquired information
from books subsequently, but that really isn't his function here,
and I object to these questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: I was trying to look at the realm of credibility
and the basis of statements made by this witness in other circumstances.
Often, this does involve a fact. In this case I don't think it
is represented as hearsay, but now the War Refugee Board Report
is the subject of the cross-examination, and it's not put forward
as hearsay. In fact, if you look at the front of it, it says,
"Nothing passed on from hearsay".
My friend knows that because he gave me a copy. It says, "Nothing
passed on from hearsay".
MR. GRIFFITHS: That was not written by Dr. Vrba what my friend
is describing. It is in a foreword.
MR. CHRISTIE: Well, I took it that it was to be the truth.
THE COURT: Any ruling that I could make, gentlemen, would,
on this subject, when the issue is cross-examination, would, in
my view, be dangerous and might appear as if I were restricting
the right to cross-examine.
I have no intention of doing that. You may proceed. Crown counsel
may employ, if he so wishes, his thoughts in this regard when
his turn comes to address the jury.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
Q. Do you adopt the War Refugee Board Report as being true?
A. As being true as close to the truth as I was able.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. With best of my knowledge, ability and conscience and responsibility
to reproduce, while aided minimally with other normally used aid.
This means that the report consists of a complex statistics which
has been produced in a clandestine way and manner by observing
the misdeeds of Nazis in Auschwitz, and under conditions that,
if something would transpire that I am recollecting such a statistic,
it would cost me at least my life.
Q. Why would it cost you your life?
A. Because anybody who was compiling anything about Auschwitz
was punished by death, to say the least.
Q. You left Auschwitz, you say, on April 7, 19 ---
A. It was considered espionage.
Q. You said you left Auschwitz on April 7, 1944.
A. Perfectly right.
Q. You said you left with Alfred Wetzler.
A. That's right.
Q. And at that time you were known as Walter Rosenberg, according
to you.
A. That's right.
Q. And you, at that time, left in the nighttime.
A. I didn't say that it was in the nighttime on 7 April. I
started my manouvres of my escape at two o'clock p.m. on Friday, and left Auschwitz after nine
o'clock p.m. on Monday, the 10th.
Q. Of April 1944.
A. Of April 1944. In other words, it wasn't ---
Q. What time?
A. 9:00 p.m.
Q. Just after dark.
A. I would say I waited well after dark.
Q. So it was well after dark on the 9th of April, 1944, when
you left and you are hiding in the woodpile.
A. That's right. When I opened the woodpile.
Q. Did you carry lights?
A. Of course not.
Q. And no doubt, you'd managed to acquire a watch.
A. Yes, I had a watch.
Q. Aha. That is how you knew you crossed the Czech border at
ten o'clock on a given day, I suppose.
A. No. By that time I didn't have the watch any more.
Q. Well, you told us you crossed the Czech border at ten o'clock
one day.
A. That's right.
Q. How did you know when you crossed the border?
A. Because when I was crossing the border I knew that I am very close to the border, and I didn't
know if I am still on the Polish or on the Czechoslovak side,
but on both sides were working farmers of the border, and to ask
a farmer what is the time in Polish, it is half past nine. I continued
my journey and I asked a farmer again, "What's the time?"
And he answers me in perfect Slovak, "It is ten o'clock."
Q. I see. That's how we know you crossed the border at ten
o'clock.
A. Right. In the morning on Friday 21st January.
Q. Of what?
A. On Friday, 21st April.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. I beg your pardon for that.
Q. So you were travelling at night and you had a watch when
you left the woodpile which you hadn't when you crossed the Czech
border?
A. That's right.
Q. And you had a compass, too?
A. No.
Q. No. You were travelling in unfamiliar territory.
A. Yes.
Q. In the dark.
A. Yes.
Q. And you certainly didn't want to go near the camp.
A. Yes.
Q. And you didn't have a compass.
A. No.
Q. And you hadn't been over the ground that you went over that
night before, because you had never been outside the inner circle,
or the outer circle of the guards.
A. That's right.
Q. But you were outside the outer circle.
A. That's right.
Q. And was it a moonlit night?
A. I appreciate that you can see the difficulties of this manouvre.
Q. Well, you are so far ahead of me, you know what the problem
is, don't you?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You know what the problem is, don't you?
A. No. I know what the problems were that night, and I wonder
which particular one you were interested in.
A. Well, just wait for the question before you give us the
answer. Would you agree that in those circumstances it would be
difficult to be sure precisely over what ground you had passed?
A. Not quite.
Q. Oh?
A. Because -- not quite sure, but not quite unsure, either,
because the camp Birkenau and this again I could use a map, please.
May I -- may I project the trip how I went?
THE COURT: Well, just a moment. You certainly can if you must
answer it that way and you should answer it that way. Mr. Christie, do you seek the answer?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. He has given it once, but if he wants to
give it again.
THE COURT: Well, I don't know about that. That is why I am
asking you.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Well, it seems to me you drew a diagram once
where you went. Isn't that right on the big screen over here?
A. No, I didn't do a diagram. I gave an indication.
Q. You moved your hand around and said ---
A. That's right.
Q. You said, "I went this way and ---"
A. That's right.
Q. Without a compass.
A. That's right.
Q. In the dark.
A. That's right.
Q. Over territory you had never been before.
A. That's right.
Q. I don't think I need to ask you to show us again.
A. Oh, yes, you should. You might learn something, how one
has to behave in a Nazi-occupied territory and what one can do
in order to beat the Nazis, no matter how clever they are. You
might learn something. I am perfectly prepared to show it how
it's done.
Q. You consider you are still able to beat the Nazis at everything, I suppose?
THE COURT: Apart from what I consider that to be a supercilious
exchange, gentlemen, do you want the answer or don't you, Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: No. I am satisfied with the answer.
THE COURT: Then it is your cross-examination and you proceed
with the next question.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
Q. Let's go back to this diagram, sir, that you have drawn
in 1944. You agree that as far as the crematoria is concerned,
you've given us a diagram with a railroad track.
A. Which diagram are you talking about?
Q. This one that has the crematoria in it. There.
A. Yes.
Q. You have given us a diagram in 1944 with the railroad track
leading right to the ovens.
A. No, it wasn't meant to be a railroad track.
Q. What was it meant to be?
A. If you read carefully that report, which I hope you did,
you will find that this is an indication of the fact that the
bodies inside the crematoria were shifted from the gas chambers
to the ovens using an inside narrow-gauge rail with wagons on
which the bodies were loaded in the gas chamber, and then pushed
to the ovens.
Q. Yeah.
A. And this was schematically depicted this information as being inside the crematoria, a narrow-gauge
line for manual propulsion of little wagons ---
Q. Rather than go too far, would you just tell me, then, that
you mean that all of the furnaces and the gas chambers were on
the same level?
A. No. This I couldn't assume, but I knew that there were involved
partially lifting of bodies on lifts, and partially shifting of
bodies to and from the lifts and to and from the ovens on narrow-gauge
lines. This position of those lines was not known to me and I
have given the whole crematoriums the picture in more or less
a schematic which have sufficed at that time, being such a great
novelty.
Q. Have you seen the plans, sir, of the crematoria?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Okay. I'd just like you to correct me if I am wrong, but
is the calendarium on the 11th of November, does it indicate that
there were eight boys born in the gypsy camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Children were born in Auschwitz?
A. In fact, would you think it unusual that 3,000 or more babies could be born in Auschwitz?
Q. There were not only born there in this particular case,
they were also gassed there.
THE COURT: They were ....
THE WITNESS: They were gassed there. Yesterday you asked me
if there were any children in Auschwitz, and I assure you that there weren't, but before I could specify
to details, because if I go to details I am accused of being longwinded
and if I am not going to details you will come up with some missing
detail, so now I want to explain it to you in a complete detail
sorry to be so longwinded.
It will involve the deaths of eight or ten thousand people,
most of them children, and you will understand, sir, what I have
been missing yesterday with two words when you interrupted me
and I was stopped from specifying certain exceptions.
I would like this occasion, Your Honour, the permission to
show on the map the fate of those 3,000 childrens to which the
counsel is referring here.
THE COURT: We will take a recess, before that is decided, for
fifteen minutes.
--- The jury retires. 3:30 p.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The jury returns. 3:55 p.m.
THE COURT: I believe, gentlemen, there was a question put and
not answered concerning children in Auschwitz. Is that correct?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes.
THE COURT: Would you like to go to the screen, Doctor?
MR. CHRISTIE: My specific question, for the record, is whether
the witness considered it likely that there could be three thousand
children born in Auschwitz.
THE COURT: Yes, sir. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: So it was, as I yesterday mentioned, a rule that
all children or old people who arrived to Auschwitz on the ramp,
which I showed yesterday, that rule had two prominent exceptions
from using, from sending the children straight into the region
of crematoria and gassing. There's two exceptions.
The first exception took place on September 7, 1943. As I had
the honour to explain yesterday, on June 8, 1943, this male camp,
IB, Birkenau IB, has been transferred to IID, and after a short
time in IID I was transferred to IIA as a Blockschreibe, translated
barrack scribe, in one of the barracks there. Interestingly, at
that time, the camps "B", the camp IIB, camp IIC and
camp IIE were completely empty, and we didn't know what they are
for. Also, during the months that I was since June in this camp,
I have seen every day, as usual, the women, children, old folk
being trucked into this road which was shorter than a mile, perhaps
a kilometer long, into this crematorium complex, or they went
in front of my eyes not here into the gate, but went down here
there was no other road at that time and down here, and went into
this block of Krematorium IV and V. On September 7, 1943, I was
woken up in the midnight ---
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: That's September 7, 1943, you were woken up
at midnight. Did you ever make a note of this?
A. Will you please kindly leave your questions when I finish?
THE COURT: Doctor, please listen to me. I will decide when
counsel can ask questions, and if I don't say anything, you don't say anything.
THE WITNESS: I see.
THE COURT: You will please answer his question and continue
with your narrative.
What was the question again?
MR. CHRISTIE: I just wondered if he had made a note of that
at the time.
THE WITNESS: Mental note.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: And you escaped without a note, either.
A. That's right.
Q. Go ahead. September '43.
A. And because between Block 2A and -- Camp IIA and Camp IIB
there was nothing but an electric fence, I could see that they
are bringing in families. These families were speaking in Czech
language. There were 4,500 people.
Q. You counted them?
A. No, but I was one of the parts of the people who were present,
you know, in block scribes, and I know immediately that the number
went up to 4,500 people being a block scribe myself and having
access to the Chief Block Scribe. The number was roughly 4,500,
but it might have been 4,700, in this region. And here were two
barracks and there's people went into the camp with their luggage,
with their children, with their grandchildren, with everything,
and started something which was called family camp.
THE COURT: Something what?
THE WITNESS: Family camp. It was a considerable surprise and
something completely new, and especially interesting for me because people were from Czechoslovakia.
They were my countrymen and they were for several years in the
ghetto of Theresine where it was still accumulated, as it was
understood from them, well over a thousand Jews who were become
nervous over the fate of deported people.
Q. You are talking about the 7th of September, 1943, now? I
just wanted to confirm that.
A. Yes. Quite right.
Q. The 4,500 people that arrived.
A. I guessed, to my recollection, around 4,500 people.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. In those barracks. And here up on Barrack 15 they made a
special barrack for children. There were approximately a hundred
children there of age two to ten, or two to twelve, and these
children were supplied with a special diet. This means they got
milk and they got white bread and sort of a human, more human
attitudes was prevailing in that camp, especially because the
women and the men were not shorn; they could keep their hair,
and cremation or deportation camp was suddenly created.
Mind you, the next day, as the next camp the children went
here and were here, were leaving and starting to create their
own life. This was going on until December, I would say now, 21
or 22 when another transport, also from Theresine, also having
approximately 3,000 people, here I might be mistaken but in the
region of three or four thousand, was added to this transport
so that on the whole we had in this family camp up to seven or eight thousand people to start with.
In spite of them being given a little bit better treatment
and they could keep their things, due to the general -- there
were a lot of criminal Kapos and so on -- in other words, the
mortality was considerable, even in spite of the better treatment.
Another thing which was peculiar was that I've heard that they
had on their cards written, especially mark -- I have to write
this down ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I don't really mind the lecture,
but I did ask a specific question as to whether there was a likelihood
in his mind of three thousand children born in Auschwitz. I really
don't like to interrupt, but I don't want to go on more than fifteen
minutes on this.
THE COURT: Are you able to answer that question, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Yes. In fifteen minutes.
THE COURT: What is the answer to the question?
MR. CHRISTIE: I don't want the answer in fifteen minutes.
THE WITNESS: The answer to the question is that these people
were having -- please, the picture -- they were having Sonderbehandlung,
which means special treatment after six months quarantine.
Q. Okay. I assumed this is the answer, because I would really
like to get on with another question.
THE COURT: You can return to the box now, Doctor.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: You specifically mentioned the 7th of September,
1943, and I put it to you that on that date no transports arrived
from Theresienstadt, and no transports involving 4,500 people
or anything approaching that number. Would you like to take a
look? Now, we agree, you are talking about the 7th of September,
1943.
A. Right.
Q. Okay. I put it to you that the Calendarium does not indicate
from Theresienstadt or anywhere else a transport of 4,500 people
on that day.
A. Well, it was not on the 7th September, but it was recorded
here on the 8th September, and it is written here that on 8th
September that there were deported, brought to Auschwitz, five
thousand Jews from the ghetto in Theresien, out of the 2,293 men
and boys who received the numbers 146694 until 168986.
Q. Yes.
A. And the women and girls were 2,713 and were women and girls,
and they got the numbers 58471 up to 61183.
So I have made, to summarize, an error of one day in my memory,
and instead of four thousand five hundred, the real number is
five thousand or six.
Q. Thank you very much. So you say they were to be Sonderbehandlung
in six months.
A. Right.
Q. It doesn't sat that in the Calendarium at all.
A. This is not my fault what is missing from the Calendarium.
Q. Well, with respect to this, particular people more proficient
than the notes you made at the time ---
A. Because previous to decisions of S.S. men and ---
Q. And they confided it into you?
A. And they confided it into lower commissioned S.S. men, and
they were taking money from us and diamonds in the crematorium
and they were talking.
Q. And you, as a prisoner, knew that.
A. I was that clear to collect it.
Q. I see. Can we put the same thing back on that the good Doctor
had on a minute ago? I will stay here and ask you the questions.
You stay here.
Using your pointer, because it happens to be simple, you gave
us this as the location for the bath, sir.
A. Excuse me, please. Now, I am a little bit confused. Are
we talking about the family camp or about baths?
Q. I am talking about the baths.
A. So we are not talking about the family camps.
Q. You can understand what I mean. I am speaking about the
bath.
A. I see.
Q. The baths ---
A. Nothing with family camp any more.
Q. No. We are talking about baths.
A. Thank you.
Q. We understand each other.
A. I hope so.
Q. Well, the bath is located this end of the camp; is that
right?
A. Yes.
Q. There is only one bath we are talking about, not ten baths
we are talking about.
A. That's right.
Q. Now, actually, the picture that you prepared didn't have
a bath marked or sauna on the Filip Müller one.
A. Yes.
Q. So it was really not actually there. This is just a rough
approximation. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if you look at the Filip Müller diagram, I suggest
to you that the transported people had to go down there, actually,
between these two Krema where the road went and to the bath, or
they can go down this way through the Scribe and down here and
to the bath, on the actual map that you agree is the correct one.
That is where they had to go, isn't it, to have a bath?
A. Those who were going to have a bath.
Q. Right. And after everybody got off the train, that is where
they went, isn't it?
A. Well, I wouldn't quite agree with you.
Q. No, I am sure you wouldn't; but tell me, sir, if there was
any other bath in the camp, where do you put it now?
A. That's correct.
Q. It is here, isn't it?
A. I can show it to you.
Q. Just tell me before you get off the stand, is there some
other bath in the map that you drew in 1944?
A. In 1944, yes, there was a bath in Camp IB.
Q. Right there?
A. Right in that corner.
Q. And when the camp was divided into these areas, this bath
was used, right?
A. Very likely.
Q. So when you left the camp that was the bath you were using?
A. In that region was the bath.
Q. You don't know where it was?
A. It was in the region where the Krematorium I and Krematorium
II were positioned.
Q. Right. So you were in this camp here?
A. Yes.
Q. You couldn't go out there except to report to the Chief
Scribe.
A. Pardon?
Q. You couldn't go out of this area except to report to the
Chief Scribe?
A. Up to "D".
Q. Up to "D". You couldn't go here or here or where?
A. Unless I risk something.
Q. Yes. Well, let me put it to you that these people that got off the trains could very well have
gone to the bathhouse which we now recognize to be No. 9, and
no other 9, in this picture of Filip Müller. Right?
Yes.
Q. Thank you.
A. Some of them actually went there.
Q. Well, you ---
A. And the rest went to the gas chamber.
Q. Well, you, from your position, wouldn't be able to tell
us whether they went there or not, sir.
A. Certainly I would. I will explain it to you later.
Q. Well, yes. You do that.
THE COURT: Do you want him to do it now or later?
MR. CHRISTIE: If he could now, sir, is it too late?
THE COURT: Go ahead, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Then I would, if you kindly permit, Your Honour,
to return to the previous question about the children, about the
three thousand children.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: No. You want to tell us if there is any other
way to return to the bath.
THE COURT: Is there a connection, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: Yes, there is a connection.
THE COURT: Then you may give the answer.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Do you want to look at the diagram? Here is
the pointer.
A. All those people, after six months, the children, the grown-ups,
the old and the young, were on March 7 transferred to "IIA"
where I was Blockschreibe.
Q. March 7th of what year?
A. 1944.
Q. You are sure of the date?
A. I am quite sure it was the 94th birthday of the founder
of the Czechoslovakian leader ---
THE COURT: The answer is yes, Doctor. Proceed, please.
THE WITNESS: On the night from 7th to 8th March, these people
who were transferred here, the first transport from Theresienstadt
who were here stayed here one night in the Camp IIA, then trucks
came and they were taken to their execution from here; here into
the Krematoria III and IV were all children, etcetera, etcetera,
were gassed.
Q. I put it to you, sir, that you didn't draw any lines for
roads on that map in 1944 because you didn't know where the roads
were in 1944.
A. I knew perfectly well where the roads were in 1944, but
my draftsmanship was not very good, I assure you, and I accept
the criticism of that.
Q. I put it to you that actually you were unsure as to where
Krematoriums No. I and No. II on that diagram were because you put them on the same side
of the railroad track area when, in fact, they were on opposite
sides.
A The railroad track when I escaped Auschwitz wasn't even there.
Q. It wasn't even there?
A. No. It wasn't there on 7 April, 1944. And as I told you,
this whole map is giving only a rough scheme, without detail,
that there are four crematoria and bath, and that they are in
this region.
Q. Just let me ask you this. In 1944 you couldn't provide us
with the detail, but in 1984 you are going to tell us about it.
Right?
A. That's right.
Q. You may go back to your seat.
A. Thank you. May I add something, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Up here first, Doctor.
THE WITNESS: Yes. In 1944 ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Just come up here first.
Now, then, Mr. Christie, do you have any further questions on
this subject to put to this witness?
MR. CHRISTIE: Not really, Your Honour, no.
THE COURT: The answer is no. If you want to add something,
I'm sure Crown counsel will make a note of it and if it becomes
appropriate at the time he will, undoubtedly, ask you the question.
In the event that it is not, he won't and you may not.
Proceed.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Did you ever go back to look at the Auschwitz
Museum of anything like that?
A. In 1949, as a student in Prague, I was studying chemical
engineering and I was interested in a new drug which was called
paramine acetacelic acid.
Q. Please answer my question. Were you ever ---
A. Please don't tell me what to answer with what words to choose.
Q. I don't have time to find out what drug you discovered.
I just want to know whether you went to Auschwitz after the War
or not. Simple.
A. I was taken to Auschwitz as a student on that occasion for
my education.
Q. All right. Did you go to Krema I, II, III or IV according
to the diagram?
A. No.
Q. You didn't. All right. What partisan group were you in in
Bohemia after you escaped?
A. I was in the Czechoslovak party in group of Captain
Milan Uher. He was a sergeant when he started, and the brigade
was called Hurban Brigade.
Q. Thank you. Were you in Prague at the time of the Prague
revolution, May 5th and May 9th, 1945?
A. No, because my group operated in Western Slovakia, and the
operation of the group were brought to a halt on 7 April, 1945,
when the Russian units reached us and send us immediately into
hospitals.
Q. Thank you. Do you speak Czech?
A. I speak Czech, Slovak, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, German and a little bit of English.
Q. Yeah. Did you live in Prague after 1945?
A. That's right. I studied in Prague chemistry.
Q. Which part of Prague?
A. I lived in various places as a student for the first four
years, in digs, and it was every year another place. Would you
like all the addresses?
Q. No. Thank you very much. Do you believe, sir, that it is
possible that a thousand children left Auschwitz and went to Buchenwald?
Among them was -- well, do you believe that's possible?
A. Not to my knowledge. And not during the time I was in Auschwitz.
Q. I see. So not before April 7th, 1944?
A. That's right.
Q. And after you arrived ?
A. Not before 30 June, 1942 and not up to 7 April, 1944, not
to my knowledge.
Q. There were thousands and thousands of people in that camp;
right?
A. That is quite right. The amount varied, of course, from
time to time. Depend how many died and how many were added to
it; and if it was called typhus or what it was, or vermin.
Q. And you got typhus?
A. I got typhus only once. You don't survive two.
Q. Thousands of people got typhus?
A. In 1942 there was a typhus epidemic during which thousands
of people died from prisoners.
Q. You don't know how many died, I suppose?
A. No, I couldn't say because the death was mixed with selection.
They tried to ---
Q. Well, you say that somebody selected groups of people and
you went through a typhus test of running twenty-five yards, as
you said in your book.
A. That's right. That's right.
Q. But you don't know how many people died of typhus in 1942.
A. No, but I would say several thousand.
Q. Several thousand. Right. You say also that your document,
the War Refugee Report, was used at the International Military
Tribunal, and I think you are right, in Document L022. Is that
correct?
A. That is quite possible.
Q. You don't know?
A. I wasn't on the tribunal present.
Q. You weren't a witness.
A. No.
Q. You didn't testify then, and you didn't testify at the Eichmann
trial, even though you were in Israel, I believe, at the time?
A. No, I wasn't in Israel during the Eichmann trial. I was
a member of Scientific Staff of the Medical Research Council of
the United Kingdom.
Q. You didn't testify at the American Military Tribunal or the International Military Tribunal?
A. At which tribunal, you mean, in which year?
Q. 1945, '46.
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And in fact, you didn't reveal your identity publicly as
being Walter Rosenberg until some time considerably later. I think
probably when you wrote your book; is that right?
A. I don't understand this question.
Q. When did you reveal your identity as being actually Walter
Rosenberg, the escapee of Auschwitz on April 7, 1944?
A. In 1944, '45, after the War, my friend, Wetzler, has written
a report about Auschwitz for the general public, and he wrote
it in general terms and under a pseudonym, Joseph Lanik.
Q. In fact, there were two other Jews beside yourself who participated
in forming or writing the War Refugee Report there was Mr. Wetzler,
yourself, Mr. Rosen and Mr. Mordecai.
A. No. Mr. Mordovitch not Mordecai.
Q. Well, none of them were identified in the report, right?
A. In the report they were not identified because against each
of us there were international warrants issued which were, a copy
of it is in Crown prosecutor's hand, in Crown Attorney's hands,
in Auschwitz and Allies reproduced, in which these warrants say
that the escape from Auschwitz, that we should be caught for that,
and in the case of success Himmler should be notified immediately.
So under those conditions we didn't use our previous names under which the warrants were issued.
Q. And you never used that name again, ever, I gather.
A. Oh, no, of course not, because the warrant was valid as
long as was valid a German rule in Slovakia.
Q. Well, after the War that certainly didn't exist.
A. No. After the War that didn't exist, but under the name
of Rudolf Vrba I fought the Nazis and was given under that name
the medal for bravery, the Order of Slovak National and the medal
of honour of Czechoslovak partisan for my services to my country
in fighting the inhuman enemy, and they were given to the name
Rudolf Vrba alias Walter Rosenberg. The document is here.
Q. So that's the proof that you actually are Walter Rosenberg.
A. That is the proof that I was Walter Rosenberg before I changed
my name officially by an official act.
Q What official act?
A. Official act of the Ministry of Interior.
Q. Of Czechoslovakia.
A. of Czechoslovakia, that it was incompatible with the honour
of a Czech soldier to have a German-sounding name who murdered
in the camp and robbed us. In other words, it was an act of the
de-Germanization of my name.
Q. Well, your name was German, wasn't it?
A. Walter Rosenberg, a nice German name.
Q. Well, isn't it the case that there was a German Major who
was involved in the escape and who has never been identified --
sorry, a Polish Major?
A. He is Professor Tabeau, doctor of medicine in the University
of Krakow. I can show you his picture, if you wish.
Please, Mr. Crown, can I have the book which I brought with
me, because I might give him a wrong name.
Q. You need the book to be sure of the name?
A. Yes, because I didn't know him personally.
Q. Don't worry about it, I am not going to worry whether you
gave me the right name or not.
A. Certainly.
Q. But can you tell me something else, sir? Can you tell me
if you, yourself, believe what was written by him in that part
of the report?
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. You take that as true, too?
A. Well, I studied this part of the report the first time in
1975.
Q. Yes.
A. It was given to me in the Department of History. I didn't
know about this report or anything until 1975.
Q. You mean to tell me, sir, that this report, which was sent to the President of the United States,
didn't have this portion on it when you completed it?
A. When I completed it, no.
Q. So it was added by somebody else later, right?
A. This portion came to the Office of the President of the
United States, to the office of Strategic Services, by different
ways about which I have no idea.
Q. I see. And it became a famous document and made you a famous
person, right?
A. I don't know if you would like to consider me famous.
Q. Well, it made you, certainly ---
A. But the Bible says that the fame doesn't last longer than
grass, and I don't like such words.
Q. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything by calling you
famous, but isn't it true that you, at nineteen years of age,
having escaped from Auschwitz, became somewhat of a celebrated
person?
A. I am not aware that I have been somewhat celebrated, because
I went immediately after I have done my job and notified the proper
authorities in Switzerland and in England and in United States
about the misdeeds of Nazis in Auschwitz, I took up the gun and
joined the fight of all civilized people against an uncivilized
enemy.
Q. Do you think the Polish Major's report is correct when he
talks about a hydrocyanic bomb being thrown in the gas chamber?
A. I have studied the report of the Major in 1975 and was asked by the Department of History to
give my opinion.
Q. Yes, your opinion. I am interested in your knowledge and
your experience.
A. And in my experience the report of the Polish Major was
excellent as far as Auschwitz I is concerned, but from reading
the report, I could see that he was not in Auschwitz II, in Birkenau,
and therefore knew Birkenau only from hearsay.
Q. Yes. Well, now ---
A. Therefore his information about the hydrocyanide bomb was
hearsay and obviously a distorted information.
Q. So that distorted information was inaccurate but the rest
of the report is correct?
A. His report of the description of Auschwitz I I found creditable.
Q. Right. I want to refer you to your declaration sworn and
exhibited in your book, sworn on the 16th of July, 1961.
A. Yes.
Q. In which you say that your statistics compiled during the
War were part of the material of the prosecution at Nuremberg
under document NG1061.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. That's what you say.
A. Yes.
Q. You swore that to be true.
A. Yes.
Q. And I put it to you that NG1061 has nothing to do with Auschwitz,
but is a letter from -- have you seen that document that you swore about?
A. I swore to the document of my document of the Auschwitz
report which we can call now Vrba-Wetzler report, which Vrba and
Wetzler together compiled.
Q. But I think in the affidavit that I showed you ---
A. And the affidavit was to the Israeli Embassy, and I had
to make an affidavit in a hurried way and I was told that a number
of the document in which the Court in Eichmann is interested,
and which refers to my report, has got such a number.
Q. Yeah.
A. So I put in such a number which they suggested.
Q. All right. Let me correct you.
A. It might be an administrative error.
Q. So because somebody told you it was the right number to
put in, you put it in and you swore it to be the truth?
A. In that case I made an error in good faith, that I can't
see why it should distort the oath, because nobody had any difficulty,
during the Eichmann trial, to find the document, in spite of the
wrong number of the document.
Q. Now, I want to just go over one point with you. You say
that when you left Auschwitz you had nothing but a watch.
A. That's right.
Q. Which you later lost. No compass, no light.
A. I didn't lose it. I gave it as a present.
Q. You gave it away. Now it, in fact, the last page of your
report, the War Refugee Board Report itself, contains numerous
statistics, numbers, information of a detailed nature, doesn't
it?
A. It does.
Q. Yes. And on the last page you give what's called the careful
estimate of the figures, and you come to a total of 1,765,000,
which you now tell us you counted going into the area of the two
crematoria and never returned. Right?
A. That's right.
THE COURT: Show him the document.
THE WITNESS: Quite right.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: And I'm sorry if I haven't shown you this,
but this is the last page, isn't it, of the WRB Report?
A. This page, this last page, has not been done by myself,
but when I have written the full report, the lawyers who were
there calculated what I have written in the full report and made
this final statistic.
Q. So is that the same kind of information you provided when
you provided the wrong document number that the lawyers gave it
to you and then you say that's it?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Okay. When we were discussing this document number you referred
to in your affidavit and swore that was the document ....
A. Yes.
Q. You told me that the lawyers or somebody gave you that information
and you stuck it into there and you made a mistake. Right?
A. Well, it's not quite so, you see, because a real number,
NG -- a real number as I know now might be NG 1062, so it might
be a typing error.
Q. You think it is?
A. It might be.
Q. Well, I suggest to you it isn't. What do you say?
A. Well, that suggestion suits you better than me.
Q. Well, let me put it to you this way. The "NG' stands
for "Nazi Government", and nothing about concentration
camps came into that document at all.
A. So perhaps it was "NL".
Q. So you guess and tell me it was something else?
A. So it is quite possible that the typist made an error.
Q. So what I am asking is, do you swear by these statistics
here?
A. That they are right?
Q. Yes.
A. I would swear that within ten per cent they are right.
MR. CHRISTIE: May I then exhibit this, then, Your Honour?
Q. You swear that they are correct within ten per cent, and
they are the back page that you used in your report.
A. That's right. So I didn't make the final statistics.
THE COURT: I wonder if the Doctor write in correctly "within
ten per cent", so that when they are reviewed they won't
necessarily be taken at their face value.
THE WITNESS: This is specified in the document, Your Honour.
THE COURT: Is it?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Where? On the page that we are looking at?
THE WITNESS: Not on that page, but in the document from which
this document has been torn out.
THE COURT: Doctor, I don't want to write it on myself. I do
not want a document coming in that you say is within ten per cent
unless the document shows it on its face.
Q. If you want to write on there, as long as I can get the
photocopy back.
A. What are you asking? What is the question? What is your
problem?
Q. I am asking you if you accept those or swear those to be
true, and you say within ten per cent. So write on it, "within
ten per cent", and we will file it.
THE COURT: You don't have to do that. If you don't want to
do it, Doctor, please don't. I will ask our Clerk to clip something
onto it so that when it comes time for the jury to look at that
document, if they wish to do so, they won't look at the face --
they will look at the face and they look at your evidence that it is within
ten per cent right.
Do you see what I mean?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Lord, and I would like also to turn
your attention that counsel didn't sort of inform us that it is
written here not 1,765,000, but approximately 1,765,000. So he
tried to imply me an absolute count when I made it clear that
it was an approximate to the best of my knowledge and ability.
THE COURT: Madam Clerk, would you please mark that as the next
exhibit, and add to it these words that I will dictate to you:
"According to the evidence of the witness, correct within
10% of the figure."
Do you agree to that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: If I may add, Your Honour, that also, in the original,
it was written, "approximately".
THE COURT: Yes. It says that right on the face of it.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, it's been a long day. Have
a good evening. Please keep an open mind. The puzzle does not
become clear until the last word has been said. Please don't discuss
the case with anyone beyond your number. Ten fifteen tomorrow
morning, please.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 26: Document (Estimate of number of Jews gassed in Birkenau [April 1942-1944].
--- The jury retires. 4:50 p.m.
---The witness stands down.
--- Whereupon the hearing is adjourned to January 24, 1985.
--- Upon the hearing resuming.
--- The jury enters. 10:40 a.m.
RUDOLF VRBA , previously sworn
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CHRISTIE:
Q. Witness, you told us that you had been to what you called
the gas chamber in Auschwitz I and you had been inside and saw
some clothes. You told us that you saw the crematorium in Birkenau.
I am now going to specifically ask you to name one specific instance
in which you saw one single Jew gassed. Tell us.
A. May I have, please, the map of Birkenau projected?
All the people who were brought to Birkenau in order to be
gassed during the time I was in building Section 2a went to the
crematorium either by this route or entered -- did not enter the
gate, went by this route, went by this route, and entered these
two places. They was led into the crematoria. They were ordered
to enter that building, Krematorium II and ---
Q. Did you see them ordered from here -- did you see them ordered
from here?
A. No, I wouldn't see them ordered from here.
Q. Did you hear them ordered from here?
A. No, but I saw them going in.
Q. Just a moment. You saw them going in here from here?
A. That's right, because I was quite frequently, not only here,
but I was frequently also here. I moved quite freely along these
roads, relatively freely.
Q. So you say ---
A. And in Auschwitz there was a habit that nobody went where
he wants, but everybody goes where he's ordered to go. Consequently
I made a logical assumption that the people in the mind of Nazi
supervisors, they all decisions what to do to enter the crematoria,
and the crematoria they never left.
Q. You watched them come in and watched them not coming out?
A. Yes. A quarter million people go in and I never saw one
civilian come out. So it is possible that they are still there,
or that there is a tunnel and they are now in China; otherwise
they were gassed.
Q. You say you saw ---
A. I have not been invited to be present.
Q. You say you saw 1,765,000 people go into one of these four
buildings and not come out.
A. That's right.
Q. You watched them all go in and no one came out.
A. That's right.
Q. So I think, if you are answering my question as to whether
you saw anyone gassed, the answer is no, but you say you saw 1,765,000
people go into those four buildings and not come out.
A. That's right. And since there was no way out of those buildings because they were surround by
electrical wires and by watch towers --
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. --- and during the twenty-one months and seven days, I never
saw one civilian walk out from these perimeter.
Q. You never saw one civilian walk out.
A. That's right.
Q. What is a civilian?
A. A civilian is a person who is not a prisoner in the camp,
don't wear prisoner garb, don't have a registration number, is
brought into the camp and disappears into one of those four buildings
and is never seen again.
Q. Well, I put it to you that it is patently ridiculous for
you to tell this jury and this Court that you could see 1,765,000
people go into those buildings on any day or all the days you
were in there, the four months you were in Auschwitz and the seven
months you were in Camp B on the top and other times you were
in Camp A on the far left, and unless you maintain you were standing
by the four crematoria, I suggest to you it is ridiculous that
you say you saw 1,765,000 people going into those crematoria.
A. It is your statement that it is illogic, because when I
was in Camp B, I was not further away from here than a hundred
yards, and when I was in Camp A I saw them going in big truck
either this way or this way, a distance of not more than five
hundred yards; furthermore, I saw the trucks going back from there,
so that if I wasn't present exactly when they marched into the
crematoria, I could have observed it either from here or from here or from
those roads or from the ramp where I worked. Please, can I have
the ....
Q. How long were you in the hospital?
A. Please let me finish.
Q. You were going to tell us about the ramp where you met the
prisoners as they came off the train. How long were you in hospital
--
A. Moreover, the distance from here to here is not bigger than
about three quarters of a mile. So if I see that the trucks go
with hundreds and hundreds of people in this direction and come
empty back, my logical conclusion was what we all knew, and you
can only blame me that the S.S. didn't invite me in, like they
invited Himmler.
Q. Yes. Well ---
THE COURT: All right, Doctor. You can come back now.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Doctor, you say that you were in the hospital
for a while what, a couple of weeks?
A. No.
Q. How long were you in the hospital after your operation?
A. I would think that the whole would last about ten days.
Q. Ten days. All right. And you painted skis, I understand,
although you never told us about that before. Is that true? You
were painting skis for some time? That was your job?
A. It is quite clear that I was in Kanada. I painted skis in the first two months and was in Buna
in Auschwitz, and that my recollection is of direct observation
of the mass murder which took place in Birkenau started.
Q. I just asked you if you painted skis.
A. Don't confuse me, please.
Q. Did you paint skis?
A. Yes, I did paint skis.
Q. How long did you paint skis?
A. Two or three days.
Q. Two or three days?
A. Yes.
Q. How long were you in Buna?
A. Perhaps ten days. Perhaps three weeks.
Q. That's where you told us that the death rate was ten per
cent a week?
A. Roughly.
Q. Or was it a day?
A. A day.
Q. Oh, that's right, a day. What did you do in Buna besides
twist wire?
A. Carrying cement.
Q. Did you carry cement all the time?
A. Yes.
Q. You never twisted wire?
A. I did occasionally twist wire. I worked on a building site.
Q. Yes, I understand.
A. Various things. I did what I was ordered to do because who didn't do what he was ordered to
do was dead.
Q. And if someone didn't work he was killed, right?
A. Not necessarily killed. There were the special German word
which was called Fertigmachen; this is a contribution of the Nazis
to the German language. This means to beat somebody so long that
he is not dead but he will die translated it means to finish him
off.
Q. Now, did you say you were witness to a visit by Heinrich
Himmler in January 1943?
A. I was witness to two visits by Heinrich Himmler one was
in July 1942 when I saw him from quite close.
Q. Where?
A. In Auschwitz I. And the second visit took place some time
in '43, but I did not see him directly. I saw his cavalcade, so
if it was Hitler or someone else sitting in the car of similar
significant dignitary ---
Q. Well, I put it to you that Heinrich Himmler, in the Calendarium
of the camp that you so far accepted as accurate, visited on the
7th of March, 1941, and the 17th of July, 1942, but he did not
visit the camp of Birkenau or Auschwitz in 1943, as you allege
in your book.
A. I was informed at that time by the grapevine in the camp
that Himmler is coming to visit the camp again, and then there
was a cavalcade equipped as if it would be Himmler in other words,
the standard Mercedes and the standard sycophants constantly around,
but he didn't come to shake hands with me and to introduce himself to me
or to say, "I am Himmler", or he didn't tell me, you
know, "Himmler didn't come this time but I am instead of
his and this is my name."
So you might be quite right that that information might be
not perfectly exact, only close to exact.
Q. You prepared also and agreed with the contents of the War
Refugee Board Report, and it says, and I show you page 38 and
I quote:
"According to the statement of a Jew from a special kommando,
Reichsfuhrer Himmler was said to have visited Birkenau on the
16th or 17th of May."
A. Right.
Q. Right? And this is from the War Refugee Board Report of
which you were the co-author.
A. Now, yesterday you have shown me -- I have to check on this
because yesterday you have shown me a report which contradicted
my statement ---
Q. Never mind yesterday. Just read that.
A. --- of the 7th of September, and then it turns out on the
next page it was explained that it was on the 8th of September.
So I would prefer, dealing with you, to check on every word.
Q. Do that. Page 38.
A. "According to the statement" ---
Q. "According to the statement of a Jew from a special
Kommando, Reichsfuhrer Himmler was said to have visited Birkenau
on the 16th or 17th of May."
A. Yes, but here it said in my testimony that I do not guarantee for it, but I say, according
to the statement, you know, it was War time, and one had to collect
each statement very carefully if one wanted to inform a foreign
government of what is happening there. One can rely only on your
own two eyes with limited movement.
Consequently it was quite right of me to have specified the
same as with Wetzler, because we are the author of this report
both, what we saw directly and what was according to some statement.
Q. Well, in your book you say that you saw Heinrich Himmler
visit the camp in January '43; you were glad to see him arrive
not because of any faint hope that he would improve your lot,
etcetera; and now you say, well, it could be and it might not
be.
A. What?
Q. It might be Himmler and it might be somebody else.
A. Which passage are you reading now?
Q. I read it yesterday from page 10 of the book that I have,
attributed to you, although it's not the hardcover edition. Are
you denying that is what you wrote in your book?
A. Excuse me. This is first of all, there is a considerable
difficulty. I suggested yesterday that the book should be shown
first to the jury in order that they can see through the manipulations
which you are making by tearing out individual sentences out of
its context.
I have read quite a few of products of Neo-Nazi literature,
and this is standard method to take out one sentence or two sentences completely off its context,
quote only this and not quote what was before and after and twist
those things and then say that because a sentence is not perfectly
logical, nobody was gassed.
Q. Dr. Vrba, excuse me for interrupting your speech, but all
I wanted to deal with was whether you said that in your book.
If you feel that I have taken it out of context, I will read the
whole thing again.
A. Please read three paragraphs before and three paragraphs
after so I'll know what you are saying.
Q. All right. I will read three paragraphs before that remark,
and three after.
A. And can I have, please, a copy?
Q. In your book, the hardcover edition, I think my friend says
it's page 15. In mine it's page 10. In order to get three paragraphs
before the reference to Himmler, I will start in my page 9 with
reading the statement:
"In fact he was far from satisfied with what he had seen,
but it was not the appalling conditions which worried him. It
was the grossly inefficient methods which were being used to exterminate
the Jews who were beginning to arrive in their thousands from
all parts of Europe.
"The gas chambers were no more than make-shift affairs.
The burning of the bodies in open trenches wasted valuable fuel
and caused the Germans who by that time occupied the nearby Polish
town of Auschwitz to complain of the stench. To a former teacher
of mathematics, the whole business was just too haphazard for
words.
"And so he gave orders for the greatest, most efficient
extermination factory the world has ever known. For the modern
concrete gas chambers and the vast crematoria that could absorb
as many as 12,000 bodies in twenty-four hours and, in fact, did
so. For the machinery that sucked in 2,500,000 men, women and
children in three years and puffed them out in harmless black
smoke.
" Heinrich Himmler visited Auschwitz camp again in January
1943. This time I was glad to see him arrive, though not because
I still nursed any faint hope that he would improve our lot through
benevolence or any sense of justice. His presence was welcome
to us all merely because it meant that for one day there would
be no unscheduled beatings or killings.
"Once more we were lined up, spic and span, with the sick
in the rear and the healthy well to the front. Once more the band
played and the heels clicked and the jack boots danced in the
luster shed by the master. Once more he inspected the camp inch
by inch running a podgy pedantic finger over the mantlepiece of
Auschwitz and examining it for dust. And this time there was no
Yankel Meisel to drop his tiny personal grain of sand into the
smooth machinery.
"Though he conducted his tour of the camp with his usual
thoroughness, it was, however, no more than an aperitif for the
meal that was to follow. The main purpose of his visit was to
see for himself the bricks and mortar which had sprung from the
plans he had outlined in Auschwitz seven months earlier.
"He was to watch the world's first conveyor belt killing,
the inauguration of Kommandant Hoess' brand new toy, his crematorium. It was truly a splendid affair,
one hundred yards long and fifty yards wide, containing fifteen
ovens which could burn three bodies each simultaneously in twenty
minutes, a monument in concrete, indeed, to its builder Herr Walter
Dejaco."
Now, I read three paragraphs before the paragraph in question,
the three paragraphs after. Do you still maintain there is any
danger about the context?
A. No. I think the context ---
Q. Then I am going to ask you a question. All right?
A. Yes.
Q. Good. Now, you say as a fact that Heinrich Himmler visited
the camp in January 1943. Yes or no?
A. I say that I was informed that he visited the camp in January
1943, but I would like to turn your attention ---
Q. I would like to turn your attention to a question.
A. I am answering your question.
Q. Well, I am asking you another.
A. You are asking me another question before I answer the first
question. Don't try and confuse me, the Court and the jury. I
cannot work this way. You are in the court. I cannot work this
way.
Q. I am and so are you, sir. And I am asking you a question
as to whether you said it was a fact that Himmler was in the camp
in January 1943, and I want a simple answer.
A. To my information he was there.
Q. All right. Did you write it as if it was a fact?
A. I wrote it that it was to my information a fact.
Q. Where does it say to your information it was a fact?
A. This is understood in a book which doesn't claim to have
scientific significance, but it is meant to give to a population
which is not versatile in all details of this complex mass murder.
Q. Yes. Thank you.
A. A general idea.
Q. Good.
A. But I would like to add, to make your question more clear,
the following:
Heinrich Himmler's visits were not always done in such a public
way that they could be recorded. For instance, his first ---
Q. Was this one public?
A. I can give you an example when others were not public.
Q. Well, this is the one I am asking about. Was this public?
A. Well, probably it was not published in general press.
Q. You said, "I was glad to see him arrive".
A. Yes.
Q. Did you say that in public?
A. All I can say is that he didn't shake my hands, so I saw him on the second occasion only from
a distance of three or four hundred yards, but as far as his first
visit is concerned, not only I saw him from a distance much closer
than you are from me, but his adjutant general, Herr Berg (phonetic)
who was the head of the German spy organization, and his closest
adjutant who published a book after the War, after he was imprisoned
by the Allies, and in a book which has five hundred pages, he
claims that in July, in 1942, he was every day, together with
Himmler, but he was never in Auschwitz. So it is characteristic
for the murderers that they try to obliterate their traces as
much as possible.
The fact that you don't have recorded where Himmler was on
a particular day doesn't mean that my information was wrong.
Q. Well, I am just interested in whether you claim your information
is right or wrong.
A. In the first case I saw Himmler from three steps, and therefore
I am quite sure that I am right. In the second instance I saw
him from a larger distance, and therefore I can only say that
it is likely that I am right, or possibly that I am right, because
the information which I received pointed to that , that it is
him, and the general cavalcade looked like Himmler's cavalcade
which I saw as the first occasion.
Q. You gave us to believe that there was forty-six ovens in
the Krematoria No. II in your War Refugee Board Report in 1944.
Isn't that right?
A. In the War Refugee Board of 1944 I made it quite clear to
you, and we made it quite clear that that report, that we know
the exact location of the crematoria, but we were not allowed to go inside because usually
who was inside didn't come alive out from there.
Consequently, we had to rely on rough information which we
got from the Sonderkommando who worked inside; and to reproduce
a map without being trained in architecture, from hearsay descriptions
of the other eye witnesses, of course, is not such a simple thing.
I think that the War Refugee Report, or the Vrba-Wetzler Report,
if you wish to call it that, for which we two are responsible,
has given reliable information where the crematoria are, and roughly
how they are equipped, without claiming that we were inside.
Q. Did the people in the camp with whom you lived that is,
the secret international resistance group referred to in some
of your correspondence, regard you as a person who is a volatile,
impulsive individual, who is unreliable?
A. Well, when I was of the opinion that it is not possible
further to wait ---
THE COURT: Just a moment.
I wonder, Mr. Christie, if you could rephrase that. The way
you have put it makes it very difficult.
MR. CHRISTIE: I appreciate that. I am going to refer to a book
in which this statement is made.
Q. Is it attributed to you, Dr. Vrba?
A. First kindly explain to the jury whose book it is.
Q. Auschwitz and the Allies by Martin Gilbert.
A. Who is Martin Gilbert?
Q. Well, you mentioned him before in your evidence-in-chief.
Don't you know who it is?
A. No. Please explain.
Q. I am not interested in ---
A. Perhaps the jury ---
THE COURT: Doctor, I don't have to ask this jury to leave again
while you and I have a talk, do I?
THE WITNESS: I got the hint, Your Honour.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, if I ask you if he says, and I quote:
"Now, together with a fellow Slovak, Fred Wetzler, he
contacted the secret international resistance group within the
camp and put his plan of escape to David Szmuleuwski."
Do you know who that is?
A. Yes. He was a general.
Q. One of the representatives of the resistance leaders. Then
there is a quote:
"I have been told Vrba later wrote that, 'Due to my inexperience,
personal volatility, impulsiveness and other factors the leadership
dismissed my intentions as unreliable.' "
Did you admit that about yourself?
A. I didn't admit about myself.
Q. So that is a misquote of you?
A. That is a distortion of facts which you are here again attempt,
because what is written there is that I suggested that it is necessary
to escape from Auschwitz into the world, and I attempted to do so, and the
resistance organization, after considering my request, said that
it is unlikely that I may succeed when others did not succeed
who are more experienced than I am, that I am risking unnecessarily
my life, and therefore my ideas are probably motivated by impulsiveness.
Q. Well, what it says here ---
A. He was wrong and I was right, because I escape and I warned
the world.
Q. You warned the world.
A. That's right.
Q. And it is true that, what is written here, that they considered
you volatile, impulsive and unreliable?
A. That's right, because they refused that moment to assist
me, considering that my enterprise to escape from Auschwitz
is completely hopeless, in contrary to my views.
Q. Yeah. You were ---
A. The proof of the pudding is, of course, in the eating, so
it was not as hopeless as they thought ---
Q. You were nineteen years old?
A. --- otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Q. And is it the case that nobody who was in the camp at that
time survived?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Is it the case that nobody who was in the camp when you
escaped survived?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Is it the case that nobody who was in the camp when you escaped survived?
A. Many survived who were living still at the time.
Q. Thank you. Now, you told us about Primo Levy being in the
camp.
A. That's right.
Q. You know who Primo Levy is?
A. Yes.
Q. He escaped.
A. Yes.
Q. He was a survivor?
A. Yes.
Q. He was not in Auschwitz I or in Birkenau.
A. Right.
Q. He was in a satellite camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, people came to the Auschwitz ramp and went to satellite
camps such as Raisko.
A. Yes.
Q. There were other camps ---
A. One moment. Raisko. No, I never heard about it.
Q. All right. There were other satellite camps?
A. There were twenty-seven satellite camps.
Q. So all of the people who got off at the siding in Auschwitz
didn't have to go to Birkenau.
A. This I can explain you quite clearly from a graph which
I have shown here before.
Q. Just answer my question.
A. It is better if I show it as it was, because you don't seem
to remember what I said here yesterday.
THE COURT: Just a moment. I think that perhaps you can answer
the question unless you are going to say something different than
what you have already pointed out as to what occurred on the ramp
with respect to what you have called, in essence, the selection
process.
THE WITNESS: Right. I said I can do it without the map.
THE COURT: Oh, good.
THE WITNESS: You reminded me of that. I explained, in detail,
that a selection was made on the ramp, and that from the ramp
those who were selected for work were marched off. They were marched
off either in Auschwitz I, I said, or to Auschwitz II.
Q. Birkenau.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, they could also ---
A. But some were marched off to Buna.
Q. Excuse me, some were marched off to Buna?
A. That's right.
Q. I spelled Raisko incorrectly. It should be Rajsko.
A. Right.
Q. Now, that was a camp, wasn't it?
A. Rajsko was a Polish name for Birkenau, and it is one of,
as far as I could see from the neo-Nazi literature which I perused, I could see that this
is one of the swindles of the neo-Nazis, because Rajsko was first
erased. This was a village on the map. On the map before 1942
you will find Rajsko as a village.
Q. Do you know how many satellite camps there were to Auschwitz
generally?
A. I've heard about twenty-seven satellite camps for slave
labour.
Q. Do you know how many people were in them?
A. I don't have the statistics at the hand.
Q. Do you know that anyone who came to Auschwitz could have
gone to any one of those satellite camps, or not?
A. Those who were healthy and able and were suitable for heavy
slave labour went there, and when they were finished with their
ability to work hard, they came back to Birkenau and were gassed
in the same crematoria which I showed you. So on the way back,
sometime there were even, knowing the confusion in the German
administration, created often artificially, we could even speak
with them. From them we heard that they were in some coal-mines
close by of Auschwitz. From them we heard that they were in some
factories, close by from Auschwitz, and when they couldn't work
any more further they were brought back to Auschwitz and gassed.
Q. I put it to you that there were thirty-nine auxiliary camps
attached to the main camp of Auschwitz in the immediate vicinity.
A. Camps for work?
Q. Camps for work and camps for rest and other camps, sir.
A. Camps for slave labour there were around thirty. Can you
name me one camp for rest?
Q. Were you in them?
A. No, I was not in them.
Q. Then how can you tell us what went on in them except hearsay?
A. Because a number of people who worked there ---
Q. Told you about it.
A. --- came for gassing to Auschwitz and from them we heard
what is going there, but the neo-Nazi literature would pretend
that it was, perhaps, because it was completely covered up in
secrecy, the ruthless slave labour that it was a rest place for
children. And where are the children, then? Can you bring me one
child who was resting there?
Q. I can tell you one child who went through Auschwitz and
didn't die, and that's called Anne Frank. Do you deny that?
A. I didn't meet Anne Frank.
Q. Well, you asked me if I knew of any. I put it to you Anne
Frank was in Auschwitz and wasn't killed there and was moved to
another camp where she later died. Do you deny that?
THE COURT: Just a moment, please. There is a good reason that
Courts say that witnesses answer questions and don't ask questions
of their own, Doctor. Please resist asking Counsel questions.
You are here to answer them not to ask them.
THE WITNESS: Thank you for your advice.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: How many people died of typhus?
A. They died in thousands, but I don't have exact figures.
Q. Isn't it true that thousands of people who died were buried
not far from the camp, and they had to be exhumed and their bodies
burned because they were polluting the water supply?
A. It is true that before I came to Auschwitz, and indeed,
that was the reason why I came to Auschwitz from Maidenek concentration
camp, they needed four hundred men.
Q. And you volunteered.
A. Yes. First for so-called fieldwork, for work in field, and
when we came to Auschwitz it turned out that before the Auschwitz
started, many thousands of Russian prisoners of war who were murdered
by the Nazi machinery, they buried them in the vicinity of the
Auschwitz and then they came to the idea that it was not good
to have a mass grave, so they used the slave labour, the prisoners
who they brought from Maidenek, to bring up the bodies and burn
them.
Q. Now you are telling us that thousands of people died of
typhus and you don't know how many. Is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. That was an epidemic in 1942, I gather, before you were
brought to Birkenau; is that right?
A. No. there might have been an epidemic before I was brought
to Birkenau, but there was one in August 1944. (1942)
Q. That was before you were brought to Birkenau.
A. That's right.
Q. Now, isn't it true that the epidemic of which you speak
claimed lives at a rapid rate and that typhus was spread from
lice?
A. That's quite so
Q. Do you recall being in the bathhouse known as the sauna
for some reason?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you there?
A. Yes.
Q. The one I am speaking about is the one that was shown on
the very detailed map that we took from the Filip Müller book.
A. Yes.
Q. You were in the sauna or bath in that place?
A. I was in the bath which was adjacent to the Krematorium
III and IV.
Q. All right. That one had roads that went to it, didin't it?
A. What do you mean, roads? Within the confines of Krematorium
III and IV there were, naturally, the whole confine was not bigger
than, perhaps, ten times of this room, and there were, naturally,
footpaths. There were even flowers planted in front of the crematoria
so that the deception could work better. There were even trees
planted.
Q. There was a sport field beside Krema III, sir, wasn't there?
A. I haven't seen it.
Q. You never went there.
A. No.
Q. Nobody ever played sports there?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. You deny that other survivors say they've played sports
there?
A. Not to me, but it is quite possible that some of them did
play sports.
Q. Right beside the crematoria, in fact. I put it to you ---
A. I don't have that information.
Q. You don't have that information.
A. No.
Q. I put it to you that the reason for those crematoria was
to deal with the bodies of people who had died from typhus.
A. This is ridiculous.
Q. What?
A. This is a ridiculous statement.
Q. What else do you think they did with the bodies of people
who died from typhus in the thousands, sir?
A. They burned them together with the people who did not die
of it.
Q. How many of those who died ended up in Fred Wetzler's crematoria
who you say held three or four thousand bodies a day?
A. The crematirium bodies varied roughly over months. For example,
in 1943 sitting in the crematoria with Fred Wetzler, the mortality would be three
hundred to four hundred a day, sometimes five hundred, but in
May of the same year, after Camp Commander Hoess was withdrawn
and the second Commander was put into command, the mortality dropped
that one day. In May there was not a natural death. It was quite
empty.
So the mortality dropped because, (a), the frost went away,
the winter passed by, and (b), the new commander said, "What's
happening in the gas chamber is one thing, but I don't want that
a prisoner should be beaten unnecessarily." Consequently
the mortality among the prisoners dropped. Consequently there
was not one day when there was not one person killed in Birkenau,
so the mortality rate in Birkenau was subject to great swings.
Q. You give us to believe that there were 1,765,000 corpses
of gassed Jews to which we must add whoever died of natural causes,
sometimes at the rate of five hundred a day.
A. Yes.
Q. And whoever wasn't a Jew and was gassed, we have to add
that too.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's in two years. Right?
A. I beg your pardon? I don't understand your question?
Q. You don't understand my question?
A. No.
Q. You gave us the figure of 1,765,000 corpses who were gassed
in your War Refugee Board Report. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. That must be added to five hundred a day in some cases,
of other caused deaths. Correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And then you also have to add all the non-Jewish corpses,
those who were dead; right?
A. That's right.
Q. So now we have in your two-year period in Auschwitz and
in Birkenau at least 1,765,000 corpses. Right?
A. More than that.
Q. Mm-hmmm. More than that.
A. More than that. Not during the ---
Q. Let's just deal with one thing at a time.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, you told us in the War Refugee Board Report that there
were thirty-six furnaces -- yes, thirty-six -- and it took an
hour and a half to burn three corpses in each furnace. Right?
A. That's right.
Q. You later said, having seen the plans, I suppose, that there
were fifteen crematorium ovens. Right?
A. No. Where did I say so?
Q. In your book. We went over that yesterday.
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. Do you deny it today?
A. I don't deny anything.
Q. All right. Well, just deal with the truth. I am asking you
whether today you are denying that yesterday you agreed that in your book you came to the conclusion
there were fifteen ovens.
A. Would you show it in my book?
Q. You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Well, then, how can you not remember from one day to the
next what you say, and yet you can tell us what you counted forty-five
years ago?
A. Because what I have seen with my eyes is firmly embedded
in my memory. This means when I have counted 1,765,000 people,
I saw them, but inside of the crematoria I didn't see.
Q. Yes. So you saw 1,765,000 people.
A. According to my count.
Q. Yes. They were Jews, though; right? Just Jews, according
to the War Refugee Board Report that you tell us in your count.
A. That's right.
Q. So they weren't gentiles; these were Jews.
A. Yes.
Q. You can tell the difference and you made the distinction
between Jews and gentiles in that number?
A. I didn't make the difference in that number. I only said
that 1,765,000 Jews were gassed in the gas chambers. The difference
between Jews and non-Jews was made by Nazis and not by me, as
you know.
Q. Well, why didn't you count all the people, then, who were
gassed in gas chambers?
A. They were counted perfectly well, because if you look, for instance, into my book, I mention
that apart from the 1,765,000 Jews who were gassed there, about
350,000 prisoners died ---
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. --- in the concentration camp Auschwitz, and a good deal
of them were not Jews but Poles, Frenchmen, Czechs, etcetera.
Q. Okay. We will deal with that. You asked me where in the
book you said fifteen ovens. I am showing you where it says in
my copy. We have to go through this procedure every time of checking
with your copy, but do that if you will.
A. So it is written fifteen ovens which could burn three bodies
each simultaneously in twenty minutes.
Q. That's right.
A. And how many ovens were there, in your opinion?
THE COURT: NO.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: I am asking you because you are the witness,
and you said it in the War Refugee Board Report.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What made you change your mind from thirty-six
ovens to fifteen, if you haven't been there since?
A. The fifteen are here. Where is the thirty-six?
Q. In the War Refugee Board Report it says thirty-six.
A. Would you show it to me in the War Refugee Board Report?
I have a copy of it here. You show it to me.
Q. Page 14, last paragraph.
A. Page 14?
Q. Yes:
"A huge chimney rises from the furnace room around which
are grouped nine furnaces each having four openings."
So I multiplied nine by four and I get thirty-six.
A. One moment.
"A huge chimney arises from the furnace room around which
are grouped nine furnaces each having four openings. Each opening
can take three normal corpses, and after an hour and a half the
boides [bodies] are completely burned.
Right.
Q. Right. If you never went back and you never looked at a
plan, what made you change your mind about all this?
A. I still do not see any difference between one statement
and the other.
Q. Oh, you don't see a difference between thirty-six and fifteen.
Right?
A. Fifteen in one crematorium.
Q. We were talking about one crematorium in the case of the
thirty-six ovens, sir.
A. You are completely confusing me. I can't find anything of
that sort what you are saying in this report.
Q. Sir, you gave us a description in the War Refugee Board
Report, page 14. You also gave us a diagram.
A. Yes. The diagram is here.
Q. In the description you are talking about I will read the
whole paragraph:
"At present there are four crematoria in operation at
Birkenau, two large ones, I and II, and two smaller ones, III
and IV. Those of type I and II consist of three parts A, the furnace
room, B, the great large hall, C, the gas chamber. A huge chimney
arises from the furnace room around which are grouped nine furnaces
each having four openings."
Now, are you not talking about the crematoria types I and II
and talking about nine furnaces with four openings for thirty-six
openings?
A. As I explained to you yesterday, it was quite clear that
the graph which we enclosed to the War Refugee Board was made
from hearsay. We were not inside. In other words, we cannot ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. One at a time. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I am supposed to go ahead?
THE COURT: Let the witness finish.
THE WITNESS: I have made quite clear that as we were not allowed
to inspect the crematoria with our intention to escape, we could,
in our report, write only and make a sketch of crematoria as we
heard second-hand from people who worked inside. What we knew
for sure and for what we were guaranteeing is that Krematoria
III and Krematoria IV was built for a capacity of two thousand bodies a day, whereas Krematoriums IV and V were smaller with
a capacity of one thousand bodies a day.
On the whole we were informing the public, the Allies and the
Allied governments that the crematoria together, according to
our information, were made to the maximum capacity of burning
six thousand bodies a day. We didn't say that actually six thousand
are burning a day, because there was a considerable amount of
breakdown in that crematoria.
However, in your quote yesterday you tried to confuse me by
saying that the crematoria I said in this report were made for
six thousand people, and then you said in my book I said they
finally had a machinery for twelve thousand people.
Q. Yeah. That is correct.
A. And that is perfectly true because when the Hungarian Jews
arrived in May and June 1944 ---
Q. Do you remember the question ---
A. --- then the crematoria were not able to burn that amount
of people who came there daily, and they had to burn the rest
in the pits around the crematoria. So I concluded that up to twelve
thousand people a day could be burned, gassed and burned in the
complex of crematoria in Birkenau.
You, then, started to confront that in the report I said that
the maximum possible number is six thousand, and in the book I
said that the maximum number is twelve thousand, and I am contradicting
myself. I am not contradicting myself; I am just telling you what
you don't want to understand, and what you use for deliberate
confusion, I think, that the Nazis were more inventive than it appears.
When the Hungarian transports came in such great masses that
the crematoria couldn't take it, they re-equipped the crematoria
with additional pits around the crematoria and were without great
technical advances, simply dug out with slave labour additional
pits, and increased the capacity of the murder complex in Birkenau
from six thousand to twelve thousand, in no detail and without
great technical measurement. And in this difference, who is not
quite clear to those who did not study the report that went to
the British and United States government and was found there by
specialists as reliable, and my additional report which was written
after the War with additional knowledge which I acquired when
I was not in Auschwitz, you tear out from this various quotations
in a confusing way, present it to a jury and me and to a court,
who perhaps do not know every detail of this complex matter, and
by this confusion you try to creat [create] the impression
that because there was such a confusion, there was no burning
at all obviously everything was invented.
Q. Did you see one body being taken out of the crematoria and
hauled to the pit?
A. This happened in May and June and July 1944. And I escaped
in April. In other words ---
Q. The answer is no.
A. In other words, I have not present during the mass murder
of the Hungarian Jews. Indeed, my job was to escape from Auschwitz
before this mass murder started and to warn them.
Q. In spite of the fact that you weren't a witness to such
a thing, you have told us these things were fact. Right?
A. These things can be considered as a fact. Also, I haven't
been on the moon. I consider it as a fact that somebody landed
on the moon, and that the picture was not made in the Star Trek
attelier because there are certain informations that a person
doesn't doubt. If I used your logic, you can come to me and say
that the earth is flat. Everybody can see it, and I can't prove
otherwise, and the astronauts which went to the moon, they were
filled with an attelier together with Star Trek, and all of this
was invented. How can I object against this argument? And you
are coming with exactly the same arguments here, from the four
thousand Jews who were deported in the months of May, June, July
from Hungary and into extermination camps in Auschwitz, about
twenty thousand came back from slave labour, only four hundred
thousand or so were gassed and murdered there and there is a statement
of twenty thousand people; and if you want to know every detail
what those twenty thousand people have said and how it was investigated
and that it was photographed from the aeroplanes by the Americans
by the time it was August and September, as those reports fully
confirm, and the statistics fully compiled in back of by Professor
Randall Brown in New York University College, so why shouldn't
I accept those facts and incorporate them into my book as to what
happened in Auschwitz after I escaped? After all, I am not such
an egomaniac that after I left Auschwitz there was nothing left
to interest me.
Q. Are you aware of the aereal photographs of the camp prepared
by the United States Government, a copy of which I am showing you from the Central Intelligence
Agency?
THE COURT: Just show him the document, Mr. Christie. We have
been over this before. Ask him if he recollects it.
THE WITNESS: From the photographs which I see in front of me
and which I haven't seen before ....
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: All right. You haven't seen them before.
A. But I can remember here something.
Q. All right.
A. I can recognize complex Auschwitz-Birkenau, aereal view.
I can recognize the ramp and I can recognize the complex of Auschwitz
I. I can recognize -- that's about what I can recognize here,
yes.
Q. Mm-hmmm. And the date of the photograph and the picture?
A. 26 June, 1944.
Q. Do you see a road leading out of the camp just north of
the area of the crematoria?
A. Well, you see, I can escape without a compass and without
a light, or so probably in the girl guide in B.C. Victoria they
didn't explain to you how it is done, but it is possible and I will tell you how it is done.
Q. I put it to you that the road is no thicker and no thinner
than the road leading into it at the bottom of the picture.
A. This is not at all. You can see here heavy road coming in
the camp, and narrow passes coming out from the camp.
Q. Thank you.
MR. CHRISTIE: Could I use that as an exhibit, please, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Any aereal specialist will give you better advice
on that.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
THE COURT: That will be Exhibit No. 27.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Is that the photograph with the CIA interpretation,
or just the photograph, just so I'm clear, Your Honour?
THE COURT: Just the photograph, unless and until you look at
it, and unless you ---
MR. CHRISTIE: What I could do is put it in for identification,
and I can call evidence on that point later, perhaps.
THE COURT: The photograph only, for the moment, until counsel
have seen it; but do not take it apart. Just hold it for the moment,
Madam Clerk. It is the photograph only which is to be the exhibit
at this time.
--- EXHIBIT NO. 27: Excerpt from document showing photograph of Auschwitz-Birkenau complex.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Witness, you say that you saw 1,765,000 Jews
go into the area of the crematorium, and you are asking us to
believe that you did that by counting each and every one of them.
A. To make a statistics clandestinely of a highly secret murder,
committed by a ruthless and large organization over two years,
is a question which requires some circumspection and cannot be
answered in one or two sentences, but if you wish to know every
detail how the statistics which are recorded in this report were
made by me and Wetzler, I can give you an explanation, a lecture
about it.
Q. I asked you a question about it. Did you count each one
of them?
THE COURT: Doctor, you can answer that question without difficulty.
Please do it.
THE WITNESS: I counted reliably at least eighty per cent of
it, and at least the remaining twenty per cent of it was seen
by Wetzler and most of it was seen by both of us. So you can double
check the figures.
Q. So you can double check the figures.
A. By many other ways, too.
Q. Did they come in trucks, or did they come on foot?
A. As I explained to you yesterday, and you seem to have forgotten,
the mass of the victims came in cattle trucks, in trains. However,
there were exceptional cases. There were exceptional cases when they came on
trucks.
Q. Now, isn't it your evidence, from a previous occasion, that
a hundred people were put on each truck and you counted the trucks?
A. I said on previous occasion that in each truck there were
sixty -- you mean cattle truck?
Q. No. The trucks that you said came from the ramps. You referred
to them as dump trucks.
A. That's right dump trucks.
Q. You said there were a hundred people in each one and you
counted by that method?
A. That's right.
Q. 17,650 trucks? Are you telling us that you counted 17,650
trucks?
A. No. A considerable part of my method consisted also of other
measurements. For instance, when I went out to the ramp ---
Q. I didn't ask you about other methods. I asked you about
that specific method. Thank you.
A. I didn't go by just this parameter. I had other parameters
in order to check and double check these figures.
Q. I will ask you if I may ---
A. You're welcome. You may learn something new.
Q. Is it your evidence that you kept a record in some written
form, or is it all mental note?
A. To keep records in written form about murder in Auschwitz
---
Q. --- would be dangerous, so ---
A. --- was to ask for death.
Q. So you didn't.
A. No. I relied on my memory.
Q. Therefore it was all a matter of memory.
A. That's right.
Q. And the matter of memory was such that over the two years
you could be sure of the numbers of trucks and transports.
A. Absolutely.
Q. You never wrote it down anywhere?
A. It was not necessary until I wrote this down, because I
have special mnemonic principles that are simple, so simple that
you might understand it, perhaps.
Q. One of the things you did in the camp was to learn how to
tell lies very effectively, wasn't it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. One of the methods to survive in the camp was to learn how
to lie very effectively?
A. Are you making innuendos that I was a liar?
Q. I asked you a specific question, that's all. You had to
lie very effectively so that you had to get ahead in the camp?
A. I don't understand what you are meaning. Give me an example.
Q. Well, did you have to lie to the guards and lie to the Kapos
and lie to the authorities above you, and perhaps even lie to
the people around you?
A. You mean that I didn't go to the camp commander and told him that my real intention is to escape
from this camp, that I do not approve of the murders which is
going on there, that I pretend that I am a slave labourer who
has got no other interest than to find a scrap of food and can't
think, and if you say that that was a lie, well, I would say that
you might have here some point.
In other words, in the face of a ruthless enemy of a ruthless
murderer who doesn't believe into God and has got no inhibitions
whatsoever, if he knows he can get away with it, it would be most
imprudent to open my mind and warn him that my intention is to
oppose him.
Q. Is that why you developed your memory techniques?
A. This was a part of it. I had to develop my memory techniques
if I wanted to oppose their objective, and their objective was
to keep the secret of Auschwitz.
Q. If you wanted to keep yourself safe you had to develop the
memory techniques so that you could keep your lies straight?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. You had to develop a memory technique so you could keep
your lies straight and survive in the camp?
A. Keep what?
Q. In order to keep alive in the camp you had to develop a
memory technique so that you could keep your lies straight?
A. My lies straight?
Q. That's right.
A. You are saying I have been lying?
Q. That's right, sir; but I am suggesting that you have developed
a technique to keep your lies straight.
A. I am suggesting to you that, to consider a person who fought
Nazis a liar is a misuse of a free Court in Canada.
Q. So because you fought the Nazis we shouldn't suggest that
you could be lying; is that it?
A. I fought the Nazis without telling them my real intention,
otherwise I couldn't have fought them. And if you now, on that
ground, consider me a liar, then you will have to consider a liar
every nineteen-year-old Canadian boy who died fighting the Nazis
because he didn't tell them in advance when he was going to attack
them.
Q. Well, how many of them died, sir?
A. Of whom?
Q. The Canadian boys you are referring to?
A. A great deal of them had to die.
Q. How many?
A. It was not my job to make a statistic on that.
Q. That's right. But I will suggest to you that it's been a
well-promoted statistic that you made of 1,765,000, that that
statistic is not any more known to you than it is to anyone in
this room as to how many Canadians died.
A. Well, it is very sad. It should be known; but I suggest
there is sufficient information about in the library if I wanted to know how many young Canadians
had put their lives down in order to end this nightmare in Europe,
and there is a sufficient information about it in the library
about Auschwitz, too, and everybody contributed where he was,
the military organs, the military administration kept records
about it, how many soldiers they lost, and I kept record about
it, how many victims I have seen murdered and robbed.
Also, I might say that this is not a welcome news to you.
THE COURT: We will adjourn for twenty minutes.
--- The jury retires. 11:40 a.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
--- The jury returns. 12:10 p.m.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: I'd like to deal with the specific figure that
you gave for the nation of France on page 33 of your report, where
you say, "Careful estimate of the number of Jews gassed in
Birkenau between April, 1942 and April, 1944 (according to the
countries of origin)."
A. Which page is it?
Q. Page 33 of your report, the War Refugee Board Report which
you referred to as the Vrba-Wetzler Report. Page 33 there is a
list which says, "Careful estimate of the number of Jews
gassed in Birkenau between April, 1942 and April, 1944 (according
to the countries of origin)."
A. That's right.
Q. Then it says, "France 150,000".
A. Right.
Q. Correct?
A. Right. Approximately 150,000.
Q. How did you know the country of origin a nineteen-year-old
blockschreibe in what block number?
A. No. 15 in Block IIA.
Q. Yes. No. 15 Block, in Block IIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew the country of origin.
A. Yes.
Q. For everybody who came from France.
A. That's right.
Q. Okay.
A. I can explain to you why.
Q. I don't need an explanation. I just want to know if it's
true.
A. Yes.
Q. You said yes.
A. Yes.
Q. That's for two years gassed Jews from France.
A. Yes.
Q. 150,000.
A. Gassed Jews which came in trains from France.
Q. Oh, I see.
A. Because in those trains were many Polish Jews who were refugees
from Poland and came to France and then they were caught up in
France by the Nazi machinery.
Q. All right. So you happen to know the country of origin of
the trains.
A. Absolutely so.
Q. You seem to know everything about the camp even from where
the trains came. Right?
A. This was very easy for me to find out.
Q. I am sure it was.
A. I will explain to you why.
Q. If you wish, later, but I have a question for you.
A. If you wish I will.
Q. Well, I have a question dealing with 150,000 gassed Jews
from France.
A. That's right.
Q. I'd like to show you a book made by Serge Klarsfeld.
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Show him the book.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes.
Q. Do you recognize this book?
A. No.
Q. You don't know anything about it?
A. No.
Q. I want to put something to you from this book.
THE COURT: Don't quote anything from the book. Just put questions emanating from the book, but not
from the book directly.
MR. CHRISTIE: All right.
Q. I put it to you, sir, that it is the truth and the fact
that the closest estimate we can obtain from the best sources
available, with all the transport numbers and names and dates
in France, gives us the closest possible estimate of foreign Jews
deported, Jews without national origin deported from France, and
French Jews deported from France equalling a total for the entire
war of 75,721. Do you disagree with that?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you.
A. I disagree with it because it is not in accordance with
what I have established.
Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
A. And it was written by people who have not seen.
Q. You are a person who has seen people.
A. On the ramp.
Q. How do the trains differ from Lithuania, Bohemia, Slovakia,
all of which countries of origin you identify in your report?
How are they different?
A. All right. Before the train came, the S.S. were very informed
what sort of trains will come, and they didn't say that the train
from France will come. They said, "Tomorrow come sardines",
because people in France during the wartime did have sardines,
somehow, and in the moment when the news that they are going to
an unknown place, they tried to accumulate certain amount of food
which they take with themselves.
For us who were working on the ramp, naturally, the food which
they brought with them was very important. Unfortunately, they
did not eat the food as they went mostly to the gas chamber, and
the food was confiscated, but we paid close attention to the question
of food because we were starving people, and the S.S. paid a close
attention to that question.
Consequently, when the S.S. started to speak, "You are
going to the ramp. Sardines are coming", I knew it was a
transport from France and I knew that that night, if I am lucky,
I will steal some sardine conserve.
When a transport came from Greece they were speaking of cigarettes,
and France not much; consequently, the Greek transport was a supply
of cigarettes not only for the S.S. but also the prisoners who
whenever they can put their hands on the goods too.
When a transport came from Slovakia, one spoke about Slivovitz.
THE COURT: What is that?
THE WITNESS: This is an alcoholic drink. Because each family
brought with them, they use it for medicinal purposes. When somebody
is very sick in Slovakia they believe if you have a glass of it
you get better. So we knew -- I didn't answer your question yet
-- so we knew perfectly well from food.
Secondly, we knew perfectly well from the language which they
spoke. Auschwitz was full of all nationalities, all languages
are spoken, and I myself speak seven. So it was quite clear for me and easy for me to identify
the people the moment they came out from the train by the language
they spoke.
Q. What about the story you told us before ---
A. And number three, they brought the luggages, and on the
luggages they brought with them, they did not bring with them
we from the Kanadakommand handled them; and on the luggage were
carefully written their names and their addresses at home, just
like everybody who travels writes his name and address on the
luggage.
So there were many, many factors which clearly, and beyond
any doubt, enabled me to establish, with one glance, from where
a particular transport is coming.
Q. So your estimate, then, is based on those three things the
conversation, the tags on the luggage, and the food they brought
with them.
A. Not only that.
Q. More?
A. More.
Q. Tell us more. Just a moment, I will ask you specifically,
how can you tell there were a hundred thousand from Holland? You
see, that's the first one, Holland; and Poland you say 300,000.
A. By truck. 600,000 by train.
Q. You've told us so far that nobody came by truck, but now
you say 300,000 came by truck?
A. These are that came from the ghettoes of Auschwitz, Sosnovitz
(phonetic) and so on. There were a number of ghettoes in close
vicinity of Auschwitz with great concentration of Jews, and these were not transported
by train, but by truck.
Q. You handled their luggage off the train, too?
A. That's right. Off the trucks.
Q. Off the trucks.
A. Yes.
Q. You unloaded the trucks, then.
A. No, I didn't unload those people from the trucks. Those
trucks went straight to the crematoria, so we could see the truck
only.
Q. So 300,000 went in those trucks that went straight to the
crematoria.
A. Roughly.
Q. And I suppose you saw the people being dumped into the back
to the crematoria?
A. The trucks went into the crematoria and I didn't see any
people coming back except the empty trucks.
Q. So you didn't see anybody going into the crematoria?
A. No. Only the trucks loaded with people.
Q. Going into the area of the crematoria?
A. Going into the closed area of the crematoria.
Q. Oh, right inside the building?
A. In front of the building. And then they went ---
Q. Did you see them going into the closed building?
A. When it was day, yes. When it was night I only saw them
going into the compound.
Q. There was a compound with a wall around it?
A. Not wall, barbed wire.
Q. So did you see the trucks going right into the crematoria
with these people on them?
A. Perfectly so.
Q. Yes. Big, wide doors in the crematoria, eh?
A. Not in the crematoria. There were big, wide doors in the
entrance to the compound of the crematoria. This means that cars,
the trucks went on the main road from the main gate in Birkenau,
the last four hundred of five hundred meter, to the crematoria,
and in front of the crematoria the barbed wire fence had a very
large opening. It's a gate through which easily a truck went by.
Q. Yeah. So you saw three thousand trucks with a hundred people
on each one going through the gate?
A. Not in one night, but over two years.
Q. And you counted them and when you got to eight hundred or
so, you kept on counting and never made mistakes and kept on counting
till you got to three thousand trucks.
A. That's right.
Q. With a hundred people on each.
A. That's right.
Q. Now you say 600,000 came from Poland by train.
A. Yes.
Q. And you counted all those, too.
A. Six hundred ---
Q. That's what it says.
A. Where is it?
Q. Second from the top, just under the 300,000.
A. Yes. Because I was on the ramp. They came with train.
Q. Sure. What about this situation where you told us that the
lady who had a conversation with a prisoner, then the prisoner
was shot for talking to her?
A. Yes.
Q. Without going into the conversation no doubt you can go
on about that do you remember that incident?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Any communication between the baggage handlers and the people
on the trains resulted in being shot.
A. Usually, when it was observed.
Q. Okay. So we have now understood from you why there was so
ready an ability to identify the country of origin, eh?
A. There was more of that.
Q. Just answer one other question, if you will.
A. There was more of that. You asked me what was ready ability.
You see, from each transport ---
Q. Well, so far, let me understand you, it was the food, in
the case of Yugoslavia Slivovitz, in case of France sardines,
then there was the luggage which you thought of next, then there
was the language which you thought of after that.
A. Yes.
Q. Anything else you want to add? You have thought of something
else?
A. Yes, I have thought of something else.
Q. Go ahead.
A. For instance, from each transport not from each but from
most of the transport, they chose at least a hundred men, or two
hundred men from slave labour, and these men came into the camp.
Once I became a camp registrar, or a Blockschreibe, to say it
exactly, I was writing their cards their names, from where they
are and I spoke with them and I asked them where from they are,
if they came with their families, because their first question
was, "Where are our families? Where is my wife? Where are
my children?" So that I speak to them like a human being,
so they thought I could give them information. And from the discussions
with these people, from the discussions with these people I was
able to confirm my observations with my eyes and come, then, to
my final conclusion about the size of the transport and origin.
Q. Mm-hmmm. I just want to understand clearly that you were
a Blockschreibe, you told us, right there, wasn't it?
A. No. It was here in Block 15.
THE COURT: Referring to Exhibit 1.
MR. CHRISTIE: Exhibit 21, sir.
Q. Now, Block 15, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. That's one block in one half of -- it's BIIA, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how many people were in that block?
A. In that block were sometimes no people, and sometimes a
thousand.
Q. Sometimes a thousand.
A. Yes.
Q. So there's as many as a thousand in each of those blocks
at the bottom there; is that right?
A. No, that is not right, because sometimes ---
Q. What do you mean, then?
A. Sometimes half the blocks were empty, sometimes eighty per
cent of the blocks were empty it was a quarantine part of the
camp.
Q. Yeah, but they held as many as a thousand in each of those
blocks?
A. If necessary they could put as many as a thousand people
in each of those blocks. They held as many as three hundred, but
they managed to press in.
Q. What we are talking about is block BIIA. Right?
A. Yes.
Q. And there's fifteen blocks in there.
A. That's right.
Q. All right. So there could be as many as fifteen thousand
people.
A. There were never there fifteen thousand people.
Q. In that part of the camp.
A. No. In quarantine camp not, but in similar camp, indeed,
there were sometimes twenty thousand.
Q. Let's get the figures understood. So that in all the other
blocks in other camps, the same number of people could be kept.
A. Not at all. This doesn't work that way. I am show you how
it works if you allow me.
Q. All I asked you was, were the blocks capable of holding
that many people?
A. They were capable, but between capability of holding people
and actually holding people there is a difference. The people.
Were the people there or not?
Q. I know. And you were in the quarantine camp, and unless
you were reporting to the Chief Blockschreibe, or the Chief Scribe
of the camp ---
A. That's right.
Q. --- you had to be in quarantine Block A.
A. According to regulations; but it doesn't mean that I kept
the regulations, you see.
Q. No. You were clever enough to avoid the regulations, right?
A. I took the risk to avoid the regulations, if you don't mind,
as part of my fighting duties.
Q. Fighting duries, yes. So you still maintain 150,000 people
from France who were Jews ....
A. Yes.
Q. Were gassed between April '42 and April '44.
A. Yes.
Q. You maintain ---
A. It is written there.
Q. It is written there, I know.
A. I have counted them.
Q. And I want to know if that's true.
A. Right.
Q. And you say that is true.
A. Absolutely so, otherwise I wouldn't have written it.
Q. And it's a careful estimate, isn't it?
A. Well, what else can it be? Should I have asked ---
Q. Don't answer my question with a question. Please answer
my question with an answer.
A. Yes. A careful estimate, because that is all I could do.
A careful estimate. I could not ask the camp commander for more
exact figures. He had them.
Q. Thank you for your reason for your answer. I suggest to
you that this figure is twice the number of people that boarded
from France who were Jews for the entire War. What do you say
to that?
A. Where from do you have the figure, from the Nazi newspapers?
Q. No. I have the figure -- do you want an answer to the question?
Because that is what you asked me. I put it to you, therefore,
from Serge Klarsfeld, a noted Nazi-hunter from France who wrote
the book, Le Memorial de la Deportation de Juivre en France --
do you deny the content of this book?
A. I have not read that book, but I can tell you that I was
in Notre Dame -- excuse me, I am trying to explain to you that
question.
Q. But I didn't ask you about Notre Dame. I asked you whether
you disputed the truth of that book.
A. I would like to inform you about different sources.
THE COURT: Doctor, Doctor. Mr. Christie, let him answer the
question. You put it. Let him answer it.
THE WITNESS: I would like to tell you that in 1967 I was invited
by the French Government to take part in the opening of memorial
for those who were deported from France and died a martyr's death
in Auschwitz and I was taken to Notre Dame in the memorial, and
in gold letters there was written, "In memory of 200,000
French victims of gas chambers in Auschwitz," or deportees,
or something to that effect. I cannot reproduce the words, but
roughly to that effect.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Where was this?
A. In the memorial to the martyrs of deportation, on the island
in Paris. So you can see that at that time the French Government
had an opinion that 200,000 were deported. Now, the French Government ---
Q. Gassed or deported?
A. Deported.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And never came back. There is an inscription of a ten-year-old
boy whose parents were deported, and this inscription says, "One
day they went away and never came back." So this was for
the 200,000 who were deported and never came back.
Now, we know, of course, where they were deported. The Germans
kept ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, I object to the witness going beyond
the scope of the question. I'd like to ask some other questions.
THE COURT: Ask the next question.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. You gave an answer to my learned friend that the words in
this book,Did Six Million Really Die? was a cynical
lie, on more than one occasion, I recall; is that right?
A. May I elaborate this on the ground ---
Q. I just want to know if you said that.
A. Yes. I have a document on that. I have left it .
Q. I just asked you whether you said it.
A. Yes, sir. It is a cynical lie.
Q. Okay.
A. It is cynical to say ---
Q. You were read the portion I am about to read to you:
"Although several millions were supposed to have died
at Auschwitz alone, Reitlinger has to admit that only 363,000
inmates were registered at the camp for the whole of the period
between January 1940 and February 1945 " (The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff), "and ...."
A. What is the figure?
Q. "....363,000 inmates were registered at the camp for the whole of the period between January 1940 and February 1945" (The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff), "and ...."
A. Excuse me. You said registered. Did I hear right?
Q. That's what the words were.
A. Registered. Good. Thank you.
Q. Okay. Now, do you deny that that's what it says in the book, The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, at page 268?
A. I didn't read the book.
Q. All right. So you don't deny that?
A. I didn't read the book. I didn't come to discuss this literature.
I came here at the request of the Court to say what I saw.
Q. I asked you a question and I want an answer.
A. What answer do you want me about the book?
Q. I want to know why you said that that was a cynical lie
if you had never read the book.
A. The six millions why it was a cynical lie?
Q. No. The question was why that was a cynical lie when you've
never read the book.
A. What was a cynical lie?
Q. You said this part, which I've read to you, was a cynical
lie. Now I'm going to analyze it piece by piece and I am going
to ask you specifically if every sentence is true or false, or
if you know.
A. As far as I know ---
Q. Then I am going to ask you why you said it was a cynical
lie.
A. That's right.
Q. All right. Now, I will proceed to do that with the first
sentence. Will you permit me?
A. I would like to make a certain signification. I said the
word cynical ---
Q. Well, I want a specific answer, for a certain specific question,
and I'll ask it right now.
A. When did I say it was a cynical lie? Remind me, please.
Q. I just put it to you that you did. I am not going to give
you the hour, the second, the minute or even the day, but I put
it to you that you did, and I am going to ask you whether it was,
in fact, a lie.
A. Yes. All right. Go ahead.
Q. That sentence, then, you cannot say it was a lie?
A. Which sentence?
Q. The sentence I just read to you:
"Although several millions were supposed to have died
at Auschwitz alone, Reitlinger has to admit that only 363,000
inmates were registered at the camp for the whole of the period
between January 1940 and February 1945 " (The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff)..."
I put it to you that that sentence is not a lie.
A. No. I said the same thing here.
Q. Thank you. The next sentence -- well, it isn't another sentence;
it is carrying on from a comma:
".... and by no means all of them were Jews."
That's true, isn't it, for registered inmates?
A. Absolutely.
Q. All right:
"It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered...."
That's true, too, isn't it, sir?
A. If they went into the gas chamber, they were not registered.
Q. I am not interested in your opinion as to whether they were
gassed or not. I am interested in whether it was true that it
was frequently claimed that many inmates were never registered.
It was true, wasn't it?
A. If it was claimed -- I have never heard it claimed. Show
me the claim.
Q. Well, I put it to you that you say that ten per cent were
registered and the rest were gassed.
A. I claimed that twenty-five per cent were registered and
the rest were gassed.
Q. The unregistered, according to you, were gassed?
A. That's right.
Q. So it is true to say:
"It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered"?
A. Well, if you understand it that those who were brought into
the cattle trucks were already prisoners, and as prisoners and
not free people, straight into the gas chamber, then it is true
that the people were not registered and were killed. That is only
unregistered prisoners.
Q. "It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were
never registered...."
That's true?
A. Many prisoners who did not come into the camp but from the
cattle trucks in which they were imprisoned were taken straight
to the gas chambers. Right, they were not registered.
Q. It is, therefore, frequently claimed that many prisoners
were never registered; isn't that true?
A. With the specifications I just now gave you, yes.
Q. Well, that statement is true, even without the specifications
you just now gave me, isn't it?
A. Without the specifications, the statement is a nonsense.
Q. Why is the statement nonsense without your specifications
when it says:
"It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered...."
Why does that need your specifications to make sense?
A. Because I consider a prisoner in Auschwitz, or Birkenau,
in the Auschwitz complex, every prisoner was registered. On the
other hand, if I define the word "prisoner" not only
those who were registered but those who were brought in cattle
trucks as prisoners, and without registration were gassed ....
Q. You call them prisoners ---
A. Then you can widen the word of "prisoner." You
are playing on a word. What is a prisoner?
Q. You are the one who is playing with words, I suggest, because
a prisoner is a prisoner is a prisoner, and if he comes on a cattle
truck or a train, he is still a prisoner. Right?
A. But it doesn't mean that he is or not registered. That's
the question. And if he is unregistered, he died as an unregistered
prisoner and was never a prisoner in Auschwitz.
Q. Let me put it to you this way, that people who arrive in
trains or cattle trucks or any other way were prisoners, and it
is claimed that many of them were never registered. Isn't that
true?
A. In that sense, yes.
Q. All right. This article does not define prisoners as only
those who were registered, does it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. This article does not define prisoners as only those who
were registered, does it?
A. But in my mind I only regarded those who were registered.
Q. All right. That is only in your mind.
A. Yes.
Q. Then it says:
".... but no one has offered any proof of this."
Right? That's what the article says. I am asking you, isn't
that what it says?
A. No one has offered any proof of that?
Q. Yes.
A. This is ridiculous.
Q. Well, sir, you tell us that you have proof that many were
never registered. Right? They disappeared up in smoke. Right?
A. It is not only I who registered it. The proof is that they
went there and never came back.
Q. You've told us all about the 1,765,000 that went to the
crematoria and never came back and they all, of course, were not
registered. Right?
A. Of course not, except those prisoners who registered, walked
in the camp ---
Q. And died.
A. Lost their -- either died or lost their power for slave
work and were subjected to so-called selections and were selected
as unsuitable of work and led in front of my eyes to the crematoria.
So there were registered prisoners gassed in the crematoria, and unregistered
prisoners gassed in the crematoria.
Q. Yeah.
A. So we are in agreement.
Q. What I am suggesting to you is that the article says that
there is a claim that many prisoners were never registered and
you agreed with that, and it said that no one has offered any
proof of this, and I put it to you that unless you were the person
who kept the camp register ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... you, yourself, cannot say who was registered and who
was not.
A. Of course.
Q. That is true.
A. No, that is not true. That is false.
Q. Well, sir, how can you tell us how you know who was registered
and who was not when you were a block scribe in block what?
A. In Block 15.
Q. Block 15 in quarantine camp A.
A. Yes.
Q. How can you tell us how you know what records were kept
by the whole camp, commandant and everybody else?
A. Because it was a rule in Auschwitz ---
Q. Whose rule?
A. The rule of the administration which run Auschwitz. The
rule was the murderers who was running this complex, and the rule
-- I am answering your question.
MR. GRIFFITHS: Let him answer the question, please.
THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Christie, let him answer the question.
MR. CHRISTIE: Did you see their books?
A. I have permission to answer the question.
Q. Do you know what the question is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. The question is were there unregistered prisoners in the
concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Q. Yes.
A. There were no unregistered prisoners in that complex for
this reason. No alive ---
Q. None alive.
A. And for the following reason I can say that this is for
sure so:
Any prisoner in concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau had a
number not only tattooed on his body, but also sewn on his clothes.
Q. Well, I'd like to stop you there and ---
A. You are interrupting me when I am explaining you the question.
MR. GRIFFITHS: He is answering the question.
THE COURT: I have it, gentlemen. You can ask him after he has
finished talking, and not until.
Go ahead.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: It was a rule in Auschwitz that who didn't have
his number on his clothes committed a criminal offence which was
punished by capital punishment; he was killed.
Consequently, I can quite assure you that no prisoner could
be in Auschwitz-Birkenau unregistered because if he would have
been unregistered, then the roll calls which took place twice
a day in order to check if somebody escaped or not would not have
been possible.
When somebody escaped from Auschwitz it took the administration
no more than two minutes or five minutes to find out who is missing
from which block and what is his number, what is his birthplace
and where from he comes. In other words, to move around in a prisoner
garb unregistered in Auschwitz-Birkenau, this is approximately
such a fantasy like that you jump on the moon. Not possible. There
was no unregistered prisoner in Auschwitz-Birkenau in the time
I have been there during the two years.
Q. So everybody was registered, is that right?
A. Absolutely so. Everybody who was alive was registered. Only
those who died without registration were not registered.
Q. And of those there is no proof.
A. There is enough proof.
Q. What is the proof of those?
A. Should I bring you six million bodies here in front of you
that you should accept the proof?
Q. Well, I'd be satisfied with an autopsy report of even one.
A. You would?
Q. Yeah. Have you got that?
THE COURT: One more laugh and the one who laughs leaves and
doesn't come back. Not a sound.
MR. CHRISTIE: I am not asking for six million bodies. I am not
asking if there are six million bodies in Auschwitz. I am not
asking for anything like that. If you have the evidence of one
single body of a person who is gassed, who was never registered,
I'd like you to produce it.
A. As a rule, you should know it, as a counsel, that ---
Q. What I should know as a counsel ---
A. I am explaining to you ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr. Christie, you will please desist
from interrupting the answer. I will be the arbiter as to whether
or not the answer is too long and is unresponsive. You will resist
it with all of your ability to interrupt the answer of the witness.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: Now, witness, proceed.
THE WITNESS: As a rule you, acquainted with the criminal law,
must know that it is not the habit of the murderer to provide
witnesses with post-mortem reports of his victims. Consequently
the fact that I have been a witness to the murder doesn't give
me still the possibility to go to the murderer and ask for the
post-mortem of his victims.
Your request, therefore, is nonsensical.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Am I to take it, then, that you are the proof?
Is that it?
A. No, I am not the proof. I am only one of those who recorded
it for the first time when it was a big secret in 1944, and after
that it was investigated when this report came to the British,
American and Canadian Government and was found to be a truthful
and reliable information which has been checked not only with
discussion of thousands and thousands of survivors, but also from
reports which reached the Allied Intelligence that many trains
from Paris, from Belgium from Selonica, from Prague, from Yugoslavia,
from Poland moved with Jews to an unknown destination.
The first time that the destination became known, as far as
Auschwitz is concerned, was accorded in this report, but long
time before this report reached the Allied Government, it was
known that some of the transport went to Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec
and Sobibor. So this was known to the Allied in 1944. What was
new in this report was that apart from the extermination camps
and gas chambers in Chelmno, Belzec,Treblinka, Sobibor, the Nazis,
in their cunning, managed to hide that the biggest centre of maximum
extermination is in Auschwitz. That was only news in this report.
Q. So I take it, then, that you have just provided us with
the proof that there is ---
A. I have provided the Allied, not you, but the Allied Government,
with the information where it is and where it can be checked out.
And as far as I know, none from the Allied Government who were
responsible for this handling of the report still accused me of having told them
something which is not true. Such an accusation I have heard only
from the neo-Nazi Press with the shamelessness of Butz and Faurisson,
and from the piece which has been shown to me by the representative
of Crown as being produced by your defendant.
Q. So as to the proof that many prisoners were never registered,
you have provided that to us. That's all there is that you know
of. Is that right?
A. I am confirming a generally-known fact.
Q. That's the words that began the Refugee Board Report, and
I will quote it to you ---
A. Yes.
Q. "It is a fact beyond denial." Those were the opening
words, wasn't it?
A. Excuse me please?
Q. The first words of the report?
A. Page ....
Q. Well, it starts at the beginning, the first page.
A. Yes.
Q. It says, "It is a fact beyond denial." Those are
the first words, aren't they?
A. Those are the first words, but why don't you read -- sorry.
Q. I will read the whole thing. I want to ask you if those
were the first words.
A. Those are the first words, and as far as I know, they were
penned by the President of the United States.
Q. They weren't penned by you, then?
A. No, because this is an introduction to the report. This
is an introduction to the report, and the report starts here.
Q. Thank you very much. It is an introduction. Thank you.
A. Yes. Not penned by myself; penned in Washington.
Q. Yes. I've heard that twice now, thank you. Now, is this
the case that you have provided us with the proof of the existence
of all these unregistered people by your evidence here?
A. I have ---
THE COURT: Excuse me.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I think that ultimately that is going to be a
matter both for Your Honour and for the jury, Your Honour, and
not a question for this witness to ask. His credibility will be
assessed by the jury and they will decide whether it is proof
or not.
THE COURT: What do you say to that, Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: Well, he's made a statement that no one has provided
any proof of this. He says that statement is a lie and I asked
him whether he claims he is the one that offered us the proof.
That's all.
THE COURT: I agree with the Crown. If you want to rephrase
it in such a way that it is acceptable to me, you may, but in
that form it is not. You may not ask it.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: It says then:
"Even if there were as many unregistered as there were registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000
prisoners."
Now, that statement is true, isn't it?
A. Where are you reading that?
Q. I am reading where I read before.
A. Well, I can't see where you are reading.
Q. I finished off by reading the last sentence before that
which was:
"It was frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered, but no one has offered any proof of this."
The next sentence reads:
"Even if there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000 ...."
I put it to you that that statement is true.
A. I don't know what you are reading from, from what context
you are tearing it out of, and I will appreciate it if you show
me the document from which you are reading.
Q. I'm sorry, I thought you had read the document and given
your opinion on it, but I'll get it. Exhibit 1, page 17. It's
the same part, I suggest to you, that you gave a blanket answer
for to my learned friend. You said it was a cynical lie.
A. Yes. Now I remember. I said it is a cynical lie what was
written in this, what do you call it, printed paper.
THE COURT: You can call it Exhibit 1.
THE WITNESS: Exhibit 1.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Now, I am referring to a specific sentence
in that specific paragraph where it says:
"Even if there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000 prisoners."
A. Page and line, please.
Q. 17 is the page. The line doesn't have a number, but it's
the paragraph that ---
A. This is the page where Mr. Goering is photographed, if I
am right?
Q. Well, it says "17" on the bottom righthand. You
got it?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you, Doctor. You read the sentence: "Even if
...." Now, do you want to start again?
A. Yes, please. Which sentence?
Q. We will deal with the paragraph which you were read by the
Crown, which is the bottom paragraph on the lefthand column of
the page beginning with the words:
"Although several millions were supposed to have died
at Auschwitz alone ...."
A. That's right. I found it.
Q. ".... Reitlinger has to admit that only 363,000 inmates
were registered at the camp for the whole of the period between
January 1940 and February 1945 (The S.S.: Alibi of a Nation, p. 268 ff) ...."
A. Right.
Q. That statement I gather you don't dispute because you say
-- or you don't know about that book. Right?
A. I don't know about that book, but I know about the fact.
Q. Well, it's true, isn't it, that's how many were registered?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You say that all of the 1,765,000 were unregistered.
Right?
A. Excuse me, this is not what is written here.
Q. No. I am asking ---
A. Here is written the following -- you are trying to mislead
me.
Q. No, I am not trying to mislead.
A. And I will try to tell you what I read here.
Q. I've read it once, sir. I am asking you another question
a little off that sentence. Don't feel I am trying to mislead
you. I want to understand you.
A. Well, with your permission I can explain what I understand.
Q. Fine.
A. Here is written:
"It is frequently claimed that many prisoners were never
registered, but no one has offered any proof of this."
Q. Yes.
A. This word, "No one has offered any proof of this,"
this doesn't come from Reitlinger. This comes from the Nazi provocation.
Q. Okay. That comes from this book which you call a Nazi provocation.
A. That's right.
Q. It's a statement of opinion, right?
A. If I would consider ---
Q. You don't ---
A. --- the opinion of somebody who tells me that the moon is
out of cheese not a provocation, but a fact or information, I
wouldn't be with it.
Q. No. It is a very clever turn of phrase, Doctor, but I want
to ask you if that isn't an opinion with which you disagree.
A. It is against common sense, this second half of the sentence.
Q. All right.
A. Because many scholars, on many universities, and many criminal
organizations, I mean many organizations who persecuted criminals,
knew perfectly well that many have offered the proof of this.
And here is written, "No one has offered any proof of this",
and you want me to subscribe to it. In other words ---
Q. No. Just please understand. I am not asking you to subscribe
to it or agree with it, but I am asking you to confirm that it
is a statement of opinion.
A. It is a statement against common sense. This is not a question
of opinion.
Q. Yes. You agree ---
A. If I will qualify my statement, if you will tell me that
this room is ten or twenty yards length, this is a question of
opinion, I might say ten, you might say twenty; but if you tell
me that this room is long twenty miles, this is not opinion; this
is nonsense.
Q. Okay. You tell me that you saw 1,765,000 people go into
a gas chamber and never come out. You don't produce a body. You
don't produce any figures, statistics or registration numbers.
You give me the information off trains that you see on occasion
and you tell me that it is as ridiculous as anything you can imagine.
Right?
A. No, not at all. I say something different.
Q. All right.
A. What I am offering is, in the report which went to the Allied
Government, is a statistic, day by day, of what arrived to Auschwitz,
from where, to the best of my knowledge and ability.
Q. I know. We've gone into that, sir.
A. So this is a testimonial of an eye witness, and as you could
see, the testimonial was sufficiently good to such a way that
yes, when you told me that on 7 March, 1943, there came no transport
into Auschwitz, I could show you, in your own document, the other
side which you didn't want to show us was written that the transport
arrived on 8th March. And you didn't give me even the opportunity
to explain to you that it was not necessary lapse of memory, but
that if prisoners came on the night of 7 March to the camp, it
is perfectlylogical that in the book which you showed me they will be recorded
on in the morning as March 8th. Still you came here ---
Q. I suggest to you that it was the 7th of September we were
talking about yesterday, not the 7th of March or the 8th.
A. 7th of September, that's right.
Q. You made a mistake, right?
A. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me.
Q. Sure. Now, what I have suggested to you is that it is true
that it is frequently claimed that many prisoners were never registered.
In fact, you make that claim yourself as do many others.
A. That many prisoners were never registered, provided with
the proviso because they were gassed on arrival.
Q. You want to add that. All right.
A. That's right.
Q. And therefore you say that it is nonsense to say that no
one has offered any proof of this. Right?
A. That no one has offered any proof of it, this is nonsense.
Q. Yeah. That's nonsense because you've offered us your knowledge
of their arrival and your evidence about their being gassed.
A. And many thousand other survivors.
Q. Well, we don't know about the many thousand others.
A. I ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. What's your next question?
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: I am trying to get to the sentence I tried
to get to before.
"Even if there were as many unregistered as there were
registered, it would mean only a total of 750,000 prisoners hardly
enough for the elimination of 3 or 4 million."
Now, that sentence is true, right?
A. That sentence I don't even understand. I think this is a
non sequitur. If you take the sentences, they are nonsense. It
is grammatically right. It is spelled out, I would say, properly,
but the sense is completely missing.
Q. Because you don't accept the proposition that there were
only twice as many unregistered as registered; is that right?
A. No. Here is something completely different written. Even
if there were as many unregistered as there were registered, it
would mean only a total of 750,000 prisoners.
Q. Well, we already understood from you that you didn't know
how many were registered, do you? Do you know how many were registered?
A. Of course I know how many were registered.
Q. How many?
A. And as you say in your statement here, that Reitlinger said
that registered prisoners were 363,000.
Q. What do you say?
A. And in my book I say the following I will read you what
I said. I will read you the whole paragraph so that there is no
mistake about what I said.
Q. Well, I don't think you are trying to mislead us, sir, on
your book. Just tell us how many were registered.
A. On page 273 I say that apart from those who were killed
without registration, registered prisoners were 350,000.
Q. Okay.
A. And Reitlinger says 363,000.
Q. That's right.
A. Now, he is a particularly sorrowful historian. I always
said my figures were exact to ten per cent, and that difference
between the two figures I mentioned before is only about two or
three per cent.
Q. So twice the unregistered inmates would be 750,000, right?
A. That is right. So what you are saying then is twice the
number of registered would mean that fifty per cent of the people
who came in the cattle trucks to Auschwitz would go to the camp
and only fifty per cent would go, other fifty per cent ---
Q. Let the jury decide what it means. I am asking you to decide
upon this statement, one at a time.
A. Right.
Q. So we agree that if you double the number of registered
inmates, you get 750,000.
A. That's right. Nice mathematical achievement.
Q. And that would certainly not be three or four million.
A. No.
Q. That's all I ask.
A. By mathematics, no. Depending by which factor you multiply
now.
Q. And you multiply by your factor.
A. And you choose factor two.
Q. I did not make the choice. The author did.
A. Who is the author?
Q. It says, "Richard Harwood." Now, just answer my
questions. Don't ask me who the author is.
A. Richard Harwood ---
THE COURT: Next question.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: "Moreover, large numbers of the camp population
were released or transported elsewhere during the war, ...."
Now, I'd like to ask you whether anybody, to your knowledge,
ever left Auschwitz-Birkenau during the War for any other camp.
A. Yes, I can answer that question. For that I don't have exact
figures, but observations I do have.
After the uprising of the Warsaw Ghetto, this means it must
have been in May June -- no, it was only in July, August, 1943,
long after the uprising, they took, marched out from Auschwitz
1,500 prisoners to eliminate the bodies lined up under the rubble
in the Warsaw Ghetto. And I was present when they took their prisoners from
Auschwitz Concentration Camp to the Warsaw Ghetto. So this is
an example that some prisoners actually, as you say, were taken
out from Auschwitz. From those thousand five hundred, some of
them are alive, two of them are in Toronto.
Q. So those are the only ones who ever left Auschwitz-Birkenau.
A. No. This is an example.
Q. And do you know how many exactly left Auschwitz-Birkenau
for other camps?
A. From the registered prisoners ---
Q. Well, from any prisoners, registered or unregistered.
A. Now, we have already said that we speak about registered
and unregistered prisoners. Now I would like to answer your question.
From the unregistered prisoners none left Auschwitz-Birkenau because
missing the registration meant that they went to the gas chamber.
As far as the registered prisoners is concerned, there was
frequent movement, and this means that where the number of transports,
one went to Warsaw and another transport went as far, I remember,
to one of those satellite camps in the coalmines around Auschwitz,
and then was a small transport of people who were specialist in
printing and were taken to a printing enterprise somewhere near
Berlin where they were falsifying British bank notes.
Now, these are approximately what I know about it, but because
they didn't go through the ramp, and they didn't go by Section
IIA, I couldn't have an exact information of the transfer of registered
prisoners from the complex of Auschwitz or Birkenau and know about it
only from hearsay.
Q. So that you are saying nobody who was unregistered ever
left Birkenau. Is that it?
A. Who arrived at Birkenau and didn't get a registration died.
Q. So nobody who went to Auschwitz -Birkenau would leave without
a number.
A. Without being registered as a number.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. But it didn't necessarily mean that he was tattooed. There
was a certain disorder as far as tatooing is concerned. You see,
the Nazis are not that efficient as you think.
Q. Well, is it your evidence that no one would leave Birkenau
who was unregistered?
A. No one would leave Birkenau alive if he was brought in as
a prisoner and was not registered. He would never leave Birkenau
alive. He wouldn't be alive for more than twenty-four hours.
Q. Mm-hmmm. So that all these transports of unregistered people
would have to be executed within twenty-four hours.
A. They usually were executed within six hours, but sometimes
the gas chambers were filled and they had to wait their turn in
the small forest behind the crematoria, or sometimes were milling
around for twelve, fourteen, sixteen hours in between the crematoria.
So you could see them and they had to wait their turn to be gassed,
and in order to keep them quiet, they sent them the gypsy music. So the music was playing while they were waiting
for being gassed, so that it created the impression that things
are normal because there is the music.
Q. And so that is how they could gas two thousand a day in
Krema II, and two thousand a day in Krema III, and one thousand
in Krema IV, and one thousand in Krema V; right?
A. Not necessarily. That was only the plan, Mr. Counsel. The
fact was that they didn't have such an experience in building
those mass crematoria. This was something quite new in technology,
and from those four crematoria a number of them suffered constantly
some sort of breakdown. It was very rare that the four crematoria
could work simultaneously. At least one broke down. If you could
get full capacity in one year you could get more than 1,800,000,
and it took two, three years. So there were breakdowns in the
crematoria.
Q. All right. Remember you were telling us earlier that you
came and unloaded the trains, and then you were marched away after
unloading them and cleaning them?
THE COURT: We will hear about that at 2:15.
Members of the jury, you may retire.
--- The jury retires. 1:00 p.m.
--- The witness stands down.
--- Luncheon adjournment.
--- Upon resuming.
THE COURT: The jury, please.
--- The jury enters. 2:20 p.m.
--- The witness returns to the stand.
THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, Your Honour.
What I'd like to do is place before the witness the ground plan
of Birkenau as presented in 1944, and ground plan as presented
in the book, Eyewitness: Auschwitz.
THE COURT: They are exhibits. Are they
lettered or numbered?
THE REGISTRAR: I think they are numbered,
Your Honour.
THE COURT: What are the numbers?
THE REGISTRAR: Rough ground plan of Birkenau
is 22, and that of Auschwitz to Birkenau is 23.
THE COURT: Thank you. Yes, go ahead.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you very much, Your
Honour. What I'd like to do is distrubute these to the jury and
I think there were some already available.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I believe Mr. Christie already
provided me with one.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: I now produce and show
to you the ground plan of Auschwitz as you prepared it in 1944
which you have in your right hand, and I am holding the ground
plan as depicted by the book Eyewitness: Auschwitz
on page 175 by Filip Müller. I am specifically asking you in
respect to what is indicated as point nine on the Filip Müller
ground plan, which I suggest to you is the sauna, or bath, as
depicted there.
Would you agree?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it your evidence that that which
you've described as the bath on your 1944 drawing is actually
the number nine point on the Filip Müller diagram?
A. Well, this is hard to answer because
of the following situation. If you look at the diagram on the
lefthand side which, by the way, doesn't come from Filip Müller
but Filip Müller reproduced it from some other documentation
....
Q. I realize that.
A. .... which is available from the Auschwitz
Museum, I think, but my plan was prepared as I remembered it on
the day of my escape, 7 June -- 7 April, 1944, and the date of
this plan is obviously, when this plan was prepared, is obviously
later I don't know how much later, and perhaps you will enlighten
me from which date this plan comes but considerable changes have
been made in the complex of crematoria after my escape.
Q. Well, I put it to you that there was
only one bath in the far end of the camp, and that is number nine
on the diagram on page 175, and that is the bath that you drew
on your diagram in 1944, and no other bath was in that area ever
at all.
A. In which area?
Q. In the area where you drew it in 1944.
A. Well, I drew a bath in the area of
Krematoria III and IV, and I can see that the bath is drawn in
the area of Krematoria III and IV on the other diagram too, only
in the other diagram the bath seems to be in relation to the two crematoria,
a little bit displaced.
Q. Well, are you saying that that's not
the location of the bath you meant, that there was some other
bath in the area?
A. What I am saying is that between the
time I left and the time that this new graph was made, there were
-- they have twenty-seven new barracks in that area.
In other words, as I remeber this place,
there was, if I would have judged, there was no place for twenty-seven
new barracks.
Q. Well, those ---
A. And now I can see that they have made
extensive building of twenty-seven new barracks, and it is possible
that either they shifted the bath to a new place in the absence
after my escape, or the position of my bath in my graph simply
means a graphical indication that it is in the region of Krematorium
III to IV, without claiming to be an engineering graph.
So my graph, which was drawn as a sort
to say from memory by layman in architecture, gives general ideas
of what was there, but doesn't claim to be an engineering piece.
This, on the other hand, is an engineering piece and I find it
possible that the bath in this new map has been rebuilt after
they built those twenty-seven new barracks there.
Q. Those twenty-seven new barracks, I
put it to you, were called Kanada and they were built on the 14th
day of the 12th month, 1943, long before you escaped.
A. What is evidence of that?
THE COURT: No, no, just ---
MR. CHRISTIE: I will put it to him in
the form of the calendarium.
Q. The calendarium entry which is dated
the 14th day of the 12th month, 1943 we went over this once before,
and it says in Birkenau they finished within the Section BII the
construction of the storage buildings which has been called by
the inmates Kanada. In the storage buildings there have been thirty-five
barracks. In thirty of them the belongings of Jews were stored
and selected. In two barracks inmates did live which did care
for the store. In the rest of the buildings the administration
was located.
A. Well, the German text which you are
showing me doesn't say exactly what you are saying.
Q. Tell me what it says.
A. So it is a little bit slightly distorted
translation.
Q. What does it say?
A. That on 12th 14th or December, 1943,
I suppose, they finished in Section II.
Q. Section BII.
A. BII, which is the Section BII, actually
the building of a storing room for effects in which translated
means property or ---
Q. You mean storage room?
A. Lager, a whole camp for that storage.
Q. More than one building, then?
A. More than one building.
Q. Which was called by the name of Kanada.
A. Actually twenty-seven buildings which
was called by the inmates Kanada. In other words, this is a new
Kanada, because the old Kanada was ---
Q. We are just translating this. Right?
A. Yes. Effectenlager, in this storage
building, there were thirty-five barracks. On this plan I see
only twenty-seven.
Q. You counted them, did you?
A. Yes.
Q. Carry on with your translation. You
are translating the document.
A. I can't be certain. I am checking
the document.
Q. Fine. Just translate the document.
THE COURT: Yes. One at a time, please.
THE WITNESS: In Barrack 30, in number
30 was sorted the property of those Jews who were brought for
annihilation into the camp, and stored there; into other barracks
of this camp there lived prisoners who were employed in the Kommando
effectenlager, this means the working Kommando of this storage
camp, and in the rest of the buildings there was administration
and other things.
Q. So that indicates that that area was
built by the 14th of December 1943.
A. Well, if I may add to it, to my recollection
---
Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Is there
any other translation there?
A. No. No.
Q. All right. Well, that does seem to
indicate that on the 12th of December, 1943, those barracks that
you described as not being there when you escaped on the 7th of
April, 1944, were built. Right?
A. So it would appear, but I cannot confirm
it, because when I came to the ---
Q. Can I take this away now?
A. Yes.
Q. Thanks.
A. I cannot confirm it because I had
a relatively free access to the two crematoria, to the place between
the two crematoria, but that something was being built behind
the crematoria I took notice, but I had no idea what it was. My
information was not good enough to say what it was, and it was
behind -- it wasn't visible from where I had access to see.
Q. It wasn't visible to where you had
access? In fact, it was right across the street from what you
describe as Krematorium ---
A. No, not at all, because I could come
to the crematoria and I could see that they are hammering something
behind the crematorium, but there was a wall put up, a wooden
wall like when you have a building.
Q. You are saying that the crematorium
that you entered here.
A. Yes.
Q. And what looks like an alleyway; and
you couldn't see whether they were built or not?
A. No, because when you build something,
as you can see even in Toronto, when you build something you make
around a what is the English word -- you surround it with -- what is the word? Who would
help me to translate the word? You surround it with a fence. Fence
is the word. And then ---
Q. Barbed wire fence?
A. Not barbed wire fence; normal fence
like when you are building something. And so I could see that
they are hammering something behind the barbed wire fence that
I didn't pay particular notion to it.
Q. It was a fence that blocked your view?
A. It blocked my view, yes, and I didn't
know what was being built there.
Q. Now, the reason I asked you this question
in the first place is that in your plan where the bathhouse is
located, there is no road to it, and on the plan that there is,
you described it as from the Museum, there is a road into it,
and I put it to you that the roads were there when you escaped
in 1944.
A. Those roads into ---
Q. --- the bathrooms.
A. Into the crematoria.
Q. The bathhouse located in Item 9 in
the schematic diagram that I gave you.
A. In the schematic diagram I see a road
that goes between two crematoria, and then goes left to the bathhouse.
And ---
Q. And in your diagram there is no road
to the bath at all.
A. I have quite clearly shown that here
is a road, but I did not indicate the opening and I would say
that that is how a layman would paint.
Q. Well, I suggest to you that your diagram
in 1944 doesn't indicate any access to the bath at all because
you didn't know where the bath was, and the bath itself was inaccessible
to anybody. Now, which is it?
A. It simply means that my objective
was to indicate to potential Allied bombers what is where, and
I have forgotten to put into this plan, plan made by amateur,
the particular entrance to this particular place; and if you will
take notice and look at this graph you will see that I haven't
shown what is an entrance to BIIA, either. Just have a look at
it and you will see that I haven't shown the entrance to BIIB
and I didn't show what is the entrance to Camp B.
Q. I am not interested ---
A. I am just telling you what is on the
graph.
Q. Well, I am not asking you to describe
what is on the graph ---
A. I haven't, on this graph, indicated
the doors, but only the position where is where.
Q. Thank you for your comment, but my
suggestion to you that when the bath was built it was built of
brick, it was built where number nine was indicated, it was never
moved and, in fact, the roads that are indicated on the plan,
which is in detail on No. 175, has the roads indicated very clearly
on it because those were the roads to the bath ---
A. No. This were roads were built after
my escape, much has been built; and what new roads have been built,
this is a different question.
Q. I suggest to you they are not new roads built after you escaped. They had
to be there when you escaped because they were roads to the bath
which you indicated was there at the time, sir.
A. But as far as I can see, comparing
your graph with my graph, then the bath on my graph and the bath
on this graph is in a distance, when I look at the measures, not
more than twenty yards difference.
Q. That's right. That's fine.
A. And I agree with you that painting
from memory and without having a yardstick, as I can imagine that
I made an error of twenty yards.
Q. I am not criticizing you for an error
of twenty yards or twenty meters, whatever. I am suggesting that
the roads were there as they are depicted in the diagram No. 175,
and that this is accurate.
A. That's right. It is accurate 1944
after my escape, whereas this diagram is approximation of a layman
at the time of my escape.
Q. Well, I suggest to you you didn't
draw any roads in there because you didn't give any thought to
the possibility that the people going by those crematorium were
going to the bath, as indicated on the roads on the map.
A. Well, I knew exactly who was going
to the bath, because I was in that bath on a number of occasions,
and actually, that is the reason why I was so frequently sort
of skipping my duties from going from IIA to IID and going there,
because I used that bath.
Q. Oh?
A. And in that bath -- I used that bath.
I can give you a description what was inside perhaps not exactly, but I can tell you what
was inside.
Q. Could I suggest to you that inside
there was a fumigation chamber for clothes? Would you agree to
that?
A. A fumigation chamber for clothes was
usually in every bath in Auschwitz.
Q. Yeah. And in that ---
A. I haven't seen that fumigation chamber.
Q. Well, why do you say that there was
one in every bathhouse?
A. But I have seen one in other baths,
that is in Auschwitz I and Auschwitz IB, and I believe you this
time. That is logical.
Q. Well, you were there, and I say it
was there, and you say you don't know it was there?
A. Yes, that is perfectly true, it was
there.
Q. Is it a fact that you knew that in
the fumigation chambers the doors were sealed, and Zyklon-B was
used to fumigate the clothes and kill the vermin?
A. Zyklon-B was not only used for killing
people, but was also used for disinfecting clothes. In fact, history
shows that Zyklon-B was used before for gassing people. Zyklon-B
was standard equipment in all concentration camp and army units
for fumigating clothes, and in 1941 ---
Q. Please don't give us a history of
Zyklon-B unless I ask you.
A. Please don't interrupt me, because I am trying to make a point. You are
trying to distort a point before I finish what I have to say.
In 1941 nine hundred prisoners of war
came to the concentration camp of Auschwitz.
Q. When?
A. In 1941.
Q. You weren't there in 1941.
A. Would you please let me finish?
Q. Not unless it is something from personal
knowledge. I don't want to know what you heard from other people
in 1941 in Auschwitz.
THE COURT: Get on to the next question.
THE WITNESS: Very good.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: You agree with me that
this was the front page that you say was attributed to your report?
A. Yes.
Q. I'd like to read it. Does it say that
the figures concerning the size of Jewish convoys and the numbers
of men and women admitted to the two camps cannot be taken as
mathematically exact and, in fact, are declared by the author
as being no more than reliable approximations?
A. Yes, it does say so.
Q. All right.
A. It does say so, so I do not know who
wrote it.
Q. Well, the last time I asked you about
it you said the President had something to do with it.
A. According to the history of Reitlinger it was President Roosevelt
who issued for circulation. This is from hearsay.
Q. Do you accept that statement as being
correct?
A. This statement is correct in a way
that I always said there is a reliable approximation in my figures,
and he said that it is not mathematically exact, but reliable
approximation. Mathematically exact means that I cannot say ---
THE COURT: No. Sorry.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Have you ever read Mr.
Christopherson's book?
A. Never heard of it. Who is Mr. Christopherson?
THE COURT: No. Next question.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: That's the author to
whom is attributed the remarks on page 18 when you were asked
about it. You said that was more lies.
THE COURT: What is the next question,
Mr. Christie?
MR. CHRISTIE: I was just directing the
witness ---
THE COURT: No. I know what you were doing.
I want to hear your next question.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Well, I am just wondering,
in view of the fact that you have never read Mr. Christophersen's
work, would you agree that the words that are attributed to him
there may have been said?
THE COURT: Don't answer the question.
Ask him a question. Rephrase it so you don't quote somebody about
whom the witness has said he knows nothing.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. Would you agree that you cannot say
that anything attributed to him is necessarily accurately attributed?
THE COURT: Isn't that the same question?
MR. CHRISTIE: I thought I was trying to
rephrase it.
THE COURT: You rephrased it the same
way. I thought you could rephrase it so it would not appear that
you were phrasing it the same way. If you cannot, ask another
question.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: The remarks on page 18,
the third paragraph from the top on the lefthand side to which
you were asked to comment ....
A. Page 18?
Q. Page 18.
A. Page 18 of what?
Q. Of Exhibit 1.
A. Page 18, yes.
Q. Starting with the second paragraph
from the top on the lefthand side ....
A. Yes. That's the same paragraph we
discussed in the morning. I can see.
Q. Yes. Now, you don't know anything
about Mr. Christopherson. We've established that.
A. No.
Q. Have we established that?
A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know
anything about Mr. Christophersen.
Q. So you can't comment on the truth or falsity of that paragraph?
A. Of course I can comment, because I
don't need Mr. Christophersen to see that what was written there
was a distortion of truth.
Q. Now, you say that was a distortion
of truth, and I want to quote from what he writes in his book.
He says:
"I was in Auschwitz from January
1944 until December 1944".
You don't say this is a distortion of
the truth, do you?
THE COURT: Is this Mr. Christopherson
being in Auschwitz?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes.
THE COURT: The witness already indicated
he does not know anything about Christopherson.
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes, but he did say this
was a distortion of truth.
THE COURT: No, he did not. He said that
what he read, what he is looking at on page 18 is a distortion.
Is that right or not right?
THE WITNESS: That's right.
THE COURT: All right. Now, phrase yourself
properly and I won't have to interfere, Mr. Christie.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, Your Honour.
I will try.
What I am asking you to say is whether
anything in the paragraph that is highlighted you consider to
be false.
A. Yes. I explained it to you in the
morning.
MR. CHRISTIE: Now, Your Honour, for the
record, the paragraph that's highlighted is those words attributed
to Mr. Christopherson. So I wanted to ask him something about that.
THE COURT: As long as you ask him what
he is looking at.
THE WITNESS: There is nothing mentioned
about Mr. Christopherson.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Well, then, we are not
looking at the right paragraph. I am trying to direct your attention
to the second paragraph from the top.
A. This paragraph?
Q. You are on the wrong page, sir. I
said 18.
A. You said 17.
Q. 18. Right here.
A. So we went through this too. Christopherson's
account was -- I think this was read to me by the Crown Attorney.
Q. Yes.
A. Yes. And this is the second paragraph
printed in heavy letters.
Q. Right.
A. And here I see the name Christopherson.
Q. Yes. And do you say that the statement
contained therein is false?
A. They are absurd.
Q. Well, which statement is absurd? Which
one?
A. The absurdity of the sentences come
out when you finish the sentence.
Q. "I was in Auschwitz from January
1944 until December 1944".
Period. End of sentence.
A. No, not period. Here is a comma.
Q. What?
A. Yes.
Q. Period or comma?
A. Yes, this is a period.
Q. Period, all right. I hope we are dealing
with the same printed material. Now, that's a sentence. What is
absurd about it?
A. Oh, this sentence, in itself, nothing.
Q. All right. So nothing is false ---
A. If it is true that he was there, which
I don't know.
Q. All right:
"After the War I heard about the
mass murders which were supposedly perpetrated by the S.S. against
the Jewish prisoners, and I was perfectly astonished."
Now, is that absurd?
A. Absolutely absurd.
Q. Why?
A. Because anybody who was in Auschwitz
for one year has seen the mass murders, in one way or another,
and I suggest to you that Mr. Christopherson was not there as a
prisoner, but perhaps as an S.S. man. Is it possible? Is it possible?
Q. Why do you need to ask me that question
if you don't know Mr. Christopherson? How do you know if he is
lying or mistaken?
A. Because this is such a lie that only
a Nazi can produce it, to cover up his crimes.
Q. Somebody you don't know, you are prepared
to call a Nazi.
THE COURT: Just a moment. What's the
next question?
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
Q. "Despite all the evidence of
witnesses, all the newspaper reports and radio broadcasts I still
do not believe today in these horrible deeds."
Now, you would say, I suppose, that that's
absurd, too, would you?
A. Absolutely absurd. It's untrue.
Q. It may be that this person holds those
beliefs honestly, though, don't you think?
A. No way. If he was in Auschwitz, he
cannot hold such beliefs unless he was in the S.S., and he is
an accomplished murderer and it is a characteristic thing of murderers
that they deny generally their crimes, and this is what I assume.
Q. So any person you say who denies such
knowledge of horrible deeds must be one of their accomplices;
is that your evidence?
A. What I say is that Mr. Christopherson,
if he was, according to this paragraph, for one year in Auschwitz
and he denies the murders, then I assume he was there in a capacity of S.S. man and is
a murderer who tries to cover up the traces of his crime.
Q. Oh, so every S.S. man who is there
is a murderer.
A. Absolutely so, or an accomplice to
murder.
Q. And he must know about the murder,
then.
A. Absolutely so. There is no way out.
From the outlay of Auschwitz and the way how Auschwitz was run,
there is not one S.S. man who was there who didn't know about
the murder, because otherwise they would send them to the front.
They didn't keep them there for drinking tea.
Q. All right. So everyone who dares to
suggest that there was no murder in their knowledge you would
charge with murder as well?
A. If he was a year in Auschwitz and
wore an S.S. uniform and says there wasn't a murder, I would claim
that this is a murderer who denies his crime.
Q. So it would be dangerous to come forward
as an S.S. man, because you would be one of those who would accuse
him of murder immediately, wouldn't you?
A. Any S.S. man who did service in Auschwitz-Birkenau
for a time like one year is a qualified murderer, and if such
one is found on the territory of, for instance, United States
of America without saying that he was there for one year in an
S.S. uniform will be automatically deported from the country.
I can assure you of that. I have heard it from the Office of Special
Investigations who is looking for them.
Q. And you would make sure that that
happened, wouldn't you?
A. I would always help the justice against
the criminal. I happen to be on the same side of the law, and
not on the side of criminal, and you shouldn't blame me for that.
Q. Well, you presumed that anyone who
had seen Auschwitz for a year and had no knowledge of such murders
must be, therefore, a criminal. Is that what you say?
MR. GRIFFITHS: That is not what he said.
He said three times, he said an S.S. man, Your Honour.
MR. CHRISTIE: Oh, excuse me.
Q. Any S.S. man who was in Auschwitz
for a year would be, in your opinion, a murderer or an accessory
to murder?
THE COURT: No, you missed one point.
In uniform.
MR. CHRISTIE: In uniform.
THE WITNESS: That is quite right with
one or two honourable exceptions which are well known.
Q. And he is quoted as saying:
"I have said this many times and
in many places, but to no purpose. One is never believed."
A. That is right, but a murderer says
in many places that he didn't do it and still nobody believes
it if it is generally known that he has done it.
Q. And you, on the other hand, are saying
that whoever has done this is a murderer, and I suppose you are also saying he is a liar
the man who is attributed with these remarks would be first an
accessory to murder, and then a liar. Is that right?
THE COURT: Just a moment, gentlemen.
Mr. Christie, if you are going to be long on this point, I am going
to excuse the jury so that an exchange can take place in their
absence.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you very much, Your
Honour.
Q. He is further on quoted as saying
that:
"During the whole of my time at
Auschwitz, I never observed the slightest evidence of mass gassings.
Moreover, the odour of burning flesh that is often said to have
hung over the camp is a downright falsehood."
A. Which line is that?
Q. I am moving right along the paragraph
to ---
A. Yes. "During the whole of my
time at Auschwitz ...."
Q. Yes.
A. ".... I never observed ...."
Yes.
Q. Christopherson is quoted further in
that paragraph, and you don't deny that he may have said those
things, do you?
A. I have got no evidence that he said
it or not, because you didn't tell me who is Christopherson, in
what capacity was Christopherson, and where does he live and I
can interview him if he was there at all. It might be a complete invention. There
may be no Christopherson at all, but an anonymous pen pusher who
invented the name Christopherson. You give me the information
who was Christopherson and in what capacity he was there, and
I will be able to deal with this problem.
Q. I am sure you would. You and many
others would make sure he is charged with murder if he is an S.S.,
if he was in uniform and if he was there for a year. Correct?
THE COURT: Just a moment. Go to another
question.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Well, as far as anything
in those paragraphs which were read to you, I suggest to you that
although you disagree with what a person is alleged to have said,
you did not say that he did not say those things.
A. I do not know if they said it, because
I can only read that somebody printed it, but there is no evidence
that somebody said it. It seems to me like an anonymous statement,
because you are trying, or denying any knowledge of the existence
of a real person, Christopherson.
Q I am not here to deny anything. I asked
you if you had any knowledge that such a person did not exist,
or any knowledge that they did not say that.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, it's becoming argumentative
rather than the other way around.
MR. CHRISTIE: Thank you, Your Honour.
I will withdraw the question.
Q. Do you know about the lawyer, Dr. Manfred
Roeder, referred to in the top paragraph of that page that you were asked to read?
MR. CHRISTIE: This is page 18?
MR. CHRISTIE: Yes, sir.
THE WITNESS: Page 18.
Q. It's a sentence that begins on the
very last part of page 17. It says:
"In May 1973, not long after the
appearance of this account, the veteran Jewish 'Nazi-hunter' Simon
Wiesenthal wrote to the Frankfurt Chamber of Lawyers, demanding
that the publisher and author of the Forward, Dr. Roeder, a member
of the Chamber, should be brought beofre its disciplinary commission."
Do you say that is false?
A. That he was brought -- I agree that
such a character might have been brought before the disciplinary
committee in free West Germany for good reasons. This is quite
possible.
Q. So that could very well be true?
A. I don't know about it, but it might
be true.
Q. You did say that this also was part
of the general proceedings that you said was a cynical lie. Do
you agree?
A. I said that the particular piece which
Crown Prosecutor showed to me, Crown Attorney said to me was a
cynical lie; but I didn't read this whole thing. The particular
thing was an outright lie.
Q. I am suggesting to you that you didn't even read the part that I am reading
now.
A. No. I can convince you that I did.
I assure you that I did.
Q. The next sentence:
"Sure enough, proceedings began
in July, but not without harsh criticism even from the Press,
who asked, 'Is Simon Wiesenthal the new Gauleiter of Germany?'
(Deutsche Wochenzeitung, July 27, 1973)."
Now, is that a false statement?
A. I didn't read Deutsche Wochenzeitung.
I don't know Dr. Roeder. I never had the honour of meeting him.
I don't know what he is doing. I understand that he was before
a disciplinary commission, and I would tell you perhaps it's true,
perhaps it's not. I don't know. I have no information about this
event ---
Q. Thank you.
A. Which took place in 1973.
Q. Yes.
A. At that time I was ---
THE COURT: All right, Doctor.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: And you were in Maidanek
Camp?
A. Maidanek Camp, yes.
Q. And you volunteered to go to Auschwitz from Maidanek?
A. In a way you can call it -- yes, I
did volunteer, because Maidanek I found a place of death of such
desolation that I couldn't imagine that there exists anything
worse. And when they said that four hundred strong men for a labour
in the fields, I naturally volunteered because at that time I
believe the Nazi tricks, and I saw that they were going to put
me to agricultural work, so I could escape; but instead I found
myself in Auschwitz. I made an error.
Q. Well, the simple answer is that you
were in Maidanek; you volunteered to go to Auschwitz and you were
taken to Auschwitz I where you were for four months, and then
you went to Birkenau, and that you've told us about. Right?
A. So the truth is that I came to Auschwitz
on 30 June, 1942, and stayed in Auschwitz I until 15th January,
six and a half months, I would say, and for the rest of the time
in Birkenau. That's true.
Q. All right. So did you ever see a gas
chamber in Maidanek?
A. In Maidanek I saw a crematorium, and
I had a good look at that crematorium because there were rumours
in Maidanek that there is a gas chamber, and my grandfather, who
was over seventy at that time, was taken to that building. So
I studied that building.
Q. Excuse me. I just asked you if you
saw a gas chamber.
A. You interrupted me again.
Q. I didn't ask you what the rumours
were. I didn't ask you if you had a grandfather who went there.
I just asked you if you saw a gas chamber in Maidanek.
A. No. I saw only a building which was
called crematorium to which my grandfather was taken, and that
was the last time I saw him. If there was a gas chamber, I don't know.
THE COURT: All right. All right.
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: So is it your evidence
that you never saw a gas chamber?
A. In Maidanek?
Q. Anywhere.
A. Yes, I saw the gas chamber from inside
in Auschwitz I.
Q. What made it look like a gas chamber?
A. The interesting thing is that it was
just a garage converted into a gas chamber.
Q. Oh.
A. There was not written on the door
that it was a gas chamber.
Q. Well, what made it a gas chamber?
A. Simply that there were no windows,
and there were doors which could be hermetically closed.
Q. What's hermetically closed mean?
A. This means if you close them, there
is not much air circulation.
Q. They are the double-door garage-type?
A. That's right.
Q. And they swung from the centre to
the side.
A. Yes. And they were done with quite
reasonably good job and precision for your information.
Q. This was the gas chamber, then?
A. Yes. In Auschwitz I, a relatively
small gas chamber.
Q. So that's the gas chamber that you saw.
A. That's right.
Q. You saw no other?
A. From inside.
Q. From inside or outside.
A. From outside I had been describing
here a gas chamber that was visible from Krematorium I in front
of my eyes, a distance of a few yards, which was coming out from
the upper part of it, came out from the ground, and you were quarreling
with me if it was four feet or six feet high.
Q. Well, wait, now. Yesterday you told
us it was six and a half to seven feet. Is it shrinking now?
A. It is quite possible that along the
gas chamber they have made a walk, and that the S.S. man perhaps
had to reach high. I think that your idea that it is shrinking
is simply a misplaced humour which hasn't got place here.
Q. Well, tell me, sir, how did you know
it was a gas chamber?
A. Well, in the first line I would like
to ask you, Mr. Counsel ---
THE COURT: No. Don't ask Counsel anything.
THE WITNESS: I knew that it is a gas
chamber because I saw people going into the crematoria. I saw
that they are not coming out. I heard that they are being gassed
there, and I have seen Zyklon gas being thrown into, on top of
the gas chamber.
Q. Mm-hmmm.
A. And therefore I concluded that it
is not a kitchen or a bakery, but a gas chamber.
Q. Yes. Were buildings ever fumigated
with Zyklon-B?
A. Which buildings?
Q. Any buildings.
A. In Auschwitz?
Q. Yeah.
A. Occasionally, when there were too
many lice, they were fumigated by Zyklon-B, and that is why Zyklon-B
was originally brought in.
Q. Is this the gas chamber you went inside
of?
MR. CHRISTIE: I am showing the witness
the 155th page of K.L. Auschwitz. It's a book.
Q. Is that what you say was the gas chamber
in Auschwitz?
A. I do not know at what time of the
year, on which year this picture was taken. In 1942 October, when
I was there, I do not remember seeing the lamps on top of the
roof; otherwise it looks like a garage.
Q. Is that the room?
A. It can be, but from what I see to
this picture, it could be any garage.
Q. All right. So there was nothing unique
about this place that you called the gas chamber that would help
you to identify it; is that right?
A. Well, there was not written "Gas
Chamber", but there is nothing unique in any place where
people are gassed. All we have to do is to close windows, the ventilation, and throwing gas.
Q. I put it to you that you have told
us that there was 1,765,000 corpses to be dealt with in these
various crematoria you told us about.
A. That's right.
Q. I put it to you that if there were
forty-six stoves, as you described in the War Refugee Board Report,
and if there was one and a half hours required for each corpse,
that working twenty-four hours a day you would require 4.38 years
to cremate all those corpses. What do you say about that?
A. Would you please repeat me slowly
all the data which you are having here?
Q. Well, I said if you have forty-six
stoves or ovens as you described, nine times three .... (sic)
A. Yes.
Q. And 1,765,000 corpses ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... one and a half hours each ....
A. Yes.
Q. .... you would require, at twenty-four
hours a day operation, 4.38 years to cremate all those bodies.
A. Well, there is already a little swindle
introduced into that statement, because that statement was introduced
by Dr. Staglich, and it is in the hands of the Crown Attorney,
and it is a distortion of the statement which I made in this report
in which this Doctor statement, who was a neo-Nazi and was convicted
in West Germany, has taken the liberty to distort mildly the contents
of this report, because in this report I never said that in one
and a half hours a body was cremated, but I said that three bodies
were cremated simultaneously in each oven, and that in process
took approximately one hour. Consequently ---
Q. One hour and a half you said.
A. Let's go into the details. I may have
said one or one and a half hours, but it was definitely three
bodies. Furthermore, I haven't said how many openings were there
exactly. There might have been much more ovens there than I wrote
in my report. As I told you, my report, as far as the inside of
the crematoria, was rather a provisory thing based on information
which perhaps was not that exact and detailed.
Q. May I interrupt you with one other
question?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of fuel do you say they
cremated these bodies with?
A. To my information coal was used in
crematoria, and wood when it was outside the crematoria.
Q. I see.
A. But I haven't been invited to the
stove, so it is hearsay.
Q. No. It is just these figures -- so
I am asking you. So it's coal or wood?
A. That's hearsay, yes.
Q. Well, of course. So is the matter
of whether they were gassed or not, isn't it?
THE COURT: Let's not have an answer to
that. What's the next question?
Q. MR. CHRISTIE: Did you see massive trains of coal coming into the camp,
too?
A. No.
Q. Did you see loads of wood coming into
the camp?
A. I have seen loads of coal being transported
into the crematoria.
Q. Well, did they come on the railroad?
A. No. They came on trucks and they came
on individual trucks. This means when a transport came, that the
transport would require forty or fifty trucks which were attracts
my attention.
Q. I thought there were only ten trucks.
Do you remember when you were unloading the people at the ramp?
You said ten had to go and come back.
A. Yes. So by going and back, so I have
seen a hundred trucks by the time they made the journey from the
crematorium to the ramp. So there was heavy traffic. But apart
from the heavy traffic which was connected with mass annihilation
of the arrivals, there was also other type of traffic. There were
travelling trucks which were bringing coal to the crematoriums.
There were travelling trucks which were bringing bread to the
camp. There were travelling trucks which were bringing bread nearby,
and tea, and in other words, there was many thousands of prisoners
and many thousands of S.S., and there was a certain traffic which
I could control so exactly.
Q. Mm-hmmm. I see. Sure.
A. I didn't have every record of every
single truck which went by.
Q. Since you did make some comments about
Dr. Staglich, you called him a neo-Nazi, I'd just like to ask you
if you are prepared to make that judgment about that particular
person, were you aware that he was once a judge and when he published
his book he lost everything in terms of his judgeship and he also
lost his right to be the holder of the University degree. Are
you aware of that?
THE COURT: Before you answer that question,
witness, please indicate in the shortest answer possible whether
you were aware of any of these things.
THE WITNESS: I was aware of Dr. Staglich,
his connections ---
THE COURT: Just a moment. Were you aware
of the things put to you by Counsel?
THE WITNESS: No, I was only aware that
he was convicted by a West German Court for swindle and for publishing
lies in order to incite national hatred, and this is against the
West German law, and it was the account in the German newspaper
Die Welte, which is a West German newspaper, and I have read an
account that he was convicted and his book was forbidden as obscene,
and forbidding the education of the German population and considered
dangerous to the German population because of the demagogue which
he was using.
THE COURT: All right.
THE WITNESS: This was an article in Die Welte.
THE COURT: All right. What is your next
question?
MR. CHRISTIE: No further questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths, do you wish
to re-examine now?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRIFFITHS:
Q. Just a couple of things, Doctor.
A. Yes, please.
Q. You told Mr. Christie several times
in discussing your book, I Cannot Forgive that you
used poetic licence in writing that book. Have you used poetic
licence in your testimony?
A. No. This is not a book. This is under
oath.
Q. And Mr. Christie asked you, I believe,
put to you several places where you did not appear to testify.
He asked you if you appeared at Nuremberg. He asked you if you
testified at the Eichmann trial
A. Mm-hmmm.
Q. Have you ever testified about these
matters at other trials?
A. I have not been in Nuremberg and I
have not been present at Eichmann's trial, but I have been present
several times at the so-called Auschwitz trial in 1944 [1964]
in Frankfurt where the criminals and murderers from Auschwitz
were arrested by the West German authorities and put to trial.
THE COURT: Did you testify there, Doctor?
THE WITNESS: I did. Furthermore, I testified
at the trial of a certain Dr. Krumey and Hunsche, also in Frankfurt.
Krumey was accused of having murdered the children after they
were deported ---
MR. CHRISTIE: Are we going to get into
this?
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: My question was whether
you testified, and you have answered that.
A. This was after ---
Q. It's all right. It's all right. Other
than the trials of the Auschwitz trials and in Frankfurt and the
trials of the two doctors, again in West Germany, are there any
other trials or proceedings dealing with these matters where you
have testified in public before?
A. Yes. I testified furthermore in Vienna
when they sent me to the High Court of Justice in British Columbia.
There is a picture of a hundred people asking me to identify if
I know anyone.
THE COURT: No. Doctor, please. Just answer
the question.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Did you testify in Vienna?
A. I testified against S.S. Unterschaffuhrer
and I testified in their trial for crimes.
Q. All right. Anybody else?
A. No. To my knowledge, no.
Q. Can you tell us, Doctor, briefly how
you arrived at the number of 1.765 million?
MR. CHRISTIE: Your Honour, we went through
this in-chief; I dealt with it in cross. It did not come first
in cross.
MR. GRIFFITHS: The figure did not, to
my recollection, Your Honour -- it was not mentioned in-chief.
It is obvious from -- could the jury be excused, Your Honour,
please?
MR. CHRISTIE: I will withdraw my objection.
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. MR. GRIFFITHS: Dr. Vrba, could you tell
us briefly how you arrived at your figure? You told us how you
identified nationalities, and I wonder if you can tell us how
you arrived at your account. Can you do that?
A. Yes.
Q. Please.
A. The first time when I was on the ramp,
even before I went to the ramp, I had some idea about the numbers
who are going to come, because the number of the people from the
Kanada who were supposed to go to work, work on the ramp, depended
on the number of arrivals which are coming.
Consequently we were woken up in the
night. It was mainly night work. Mainly the transport came in
the night not always. And an S.S. man came and said to the Kapo
who was a German criminal, a green triangle, that we should go
at once on the ramp, and told him the number of how many prisoners
are coming in the cattle trucks in other words, how many deportees
were coming. And on that ground the Kapo decided a fifty, hundred, two hundred people should go
to work on the ramp.
So I had a rough idea, and before I came
to the ramp. Furthermore, the people -- when the wagons came,
in a system which I explained here before, on opening of the wagons
I could judge if this was a transport where they have put a hundred
in per wagon or one of the better transport where they have put
only sixty in in the wagon.
Furthermore, I could see a number of
wagons that are counted, because I had to clean each one of them,
going through the wagons so I could see exactly how many wagons
arrive. So from this I could know the date of arrival, the number
of people who arrived, and the number of people who were chosen
to be marched into the camp in other words, roughly the percentage
of people who were taken for slave labour. And I could make immediately
my mind the picture how many are from that particular transport
and from what nationality murdered.
Now, this information at the start represented
only one figure, and the next day two figures, and the next day
again two figures, or three figures, and I trained myself to remember
those figures and developed a special mnemonical method for remembering
each transport.
For instance, on the statistics, those
transports are only numbers, but in reality they were not just
numbers. The transports arrived either in the cold or in the hot.
The transports either had a lot of dead or few dead. The transports
came in a rich equipment, as for food, or poor equipment. During
unloading of the transport it was raining or it was not raining.
In other words, I had a lot of coinciding circumstances,
so that each transport for me was not a number but an event, a
colourful event. And as the days went by I trained myself constantly
and repeated in my mind constantly the statistics, and at the
start, when I started, it was one page and then it was two pages
that I had to remember, and then it was three pages I had to remember,
and finally it was twenty pages I had to remember, and this was
not at all very difficult with that mnemonical help to which I
have myself trained. It is a general knowledge that people who
are arrested write a poem of ten thousand stanzas over years,
and are not allowed to write, and then they came out and faultlessly
writes them down in two days. So this is a typical example Solzhenitsyn,
without comparing myself to him; and this is not verses to memorize
but people, transports, so it was not such a difficult task for
me to memorize it. I was asked this question by the Chief Judge
Hoffmann in Frankfurt, and I gave him, if you will allow me, another
aspect of illustrating how human memory works.
Q. Well, I am going to stop.
A. Yes. There is an aspect to human memory
which I can in addition to this explain, if necessary.
Q. Excuse me just a minute now. You have
with you a report, the Vrba-Wetzler report.
A. Yes. I have here a copy which I received
from the Office of Investigations, Criminal Division, Washington.
Q. There is something here I can put
to you if I can find it about Himmler.
A. Yes.
Q. There is a reference to Himmler in
here.
A. I will try to find it.
Q. We won't think out loud, but we will
both look for it here.
A. Here is something on the 17th which
is not about Himmler, but about something different. I can't find
the reference to Himmler just now, but you might, perhaps, be
able to.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths, are there any
other points you want to discuss with the witness? I intend to
adjourn in about ten minutes. You might agree to find the Himmler
reference, if you wish to, at that time during the recess.
MR. GRIFFITHS: I thank you, Your Honour.
In fact, it is the last point that I wish to review.
THE COURT: The Himmler matter?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: In that case, we will adjourn now.
--- The jury retires. 3:20 p.m.
--- Short adjournment.
--- Upon resuming
MR. GRIFFITHS: Just before the jury is brought in, Your Honour,
I will have no questions of Dr. Vrba. It was a report written by
somebody else that I was looking for. That is why I couldn't find
it, and
I have another witness here. I am shifting
gears. It is not a survivor but a professor who I intended to
qualify as an expert in the field on the impact of material of
social and racial tolerance in the community.
It is ten to four. He is here. He will
obviously be available for tomorrow. I understand that you have
a bail review at four fifteen.
THE COURT: Yes, there is another matter
that I promised counsel I would hear their bail application at
four thirty or four fifteen.
MR. GRIFFITHS: My question is whether,
in the absence of the jury, I should commence with Dr. Kaufmann,
the psychologist, today and try to get him qualified, or whether
we should start fresh with that in the morning. I am in Your Honour's
hands.
THE COURT: Mr. Christie, do you have a
preference?
MR. CHRISTIE: No, sir, I don't really.
Whatever is convenient to Your Honour, really.
THE COURT: Then I think that there might
be a change of court staff, and I will be in at three-fifty or
ten to four. If you have no further questions we will call in
the jury. You can say that before the jury and we will then adjourn
this case until tomorrow morning.
--- The court addresses members of the public in attendance in the courtroom concerning rules of order in the court.
THE COURT: Bring in the jury.
--- The jury returns. 3:52 p.m.
THE COURT: Mr. Griffiths?
MR. GRIFFITHS: Thank you, Your Honour.
I found the reference, Your Honour, that I was going to ask about.
It was in a section of a report not attributed to Messers Vrba
and Wetzler. Accordingly, I will not ask the question. I have
no further questions for Dr. Vrba.
THE COURT: Thank you, Doctor. You can
step down.
--- The witness retires.
